Even Stephano says PvZ is imbalanced and is favoring Zerg. Maybe you'll say "yeah but he is Stephano", whether this is an accurate point or a way to be a "baller" (I don't like that word but it describes exactly what I want to say). However exactly because he has revolutionized the match up and because he still is someone Protoss players don't really feel comftable against, we can listen to what he says. Why? Because he understands the mu way deeper than anyone who is posting here and still, he says zerg is favored clearly.
SaSes 99 cents about the game - Page 6
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ionlyknowmymind
14 Posts
Even Stephano says PvZ is imbalanced and is favoring Zerg. Maybe you'll say "yeah but he is Stephano", whether this is an accurate point or a way to be a "baller" (I don't like that word but it describes exactly what I want to say). However exactly because he has revolutionized the match up and because he still is someone Protoss players don't really feel comftable against, we can listen to what he says. Why? Because he understands the mu way deeper than anyone who is posting here and still, he says zerg is favored clearly. | ||
shockaslim
United States1102 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:42 Forikorder wrote: everything and infester can do Templars can also do with the benefot of making archons taht can kill 20 broodlords at once in the right situation Bolded is the key phrase. | ||
ImNightmare
1575 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:44 ionlyknowmymind wrote: Just a comment: Even Stephano says PvZ is imbalanced and is favoring Zerg. Maybe you'll say "yeah but he is Stephano", whether this is an accurate point or a way to be a "baller" (I don't like that word but it describes exactly what I want to say). However exactly because he has revolutionized the match up and because he still is someone Protoss players don't really feel comftable against, we can listen to what he says. Why? Because he understands the mu way deeper than anyone who is posting here and still, he says zerg is favored clearly. I love it how people just whipped out the stephano card when balance is concern against toss. He said it during the peak of his 3 base roach build when toss were figuring him out, with his losses recently to toss players, I would say it wouldn't be valid anymore. And advantage doesn't mean OP, just look at the 1/1/1. | ||
zhurai
United States5660 Posts
- nerf zerg - oh remove the mothership - nerf zerg more - buff protoss - oh... and nerf zerg some more. | ||
Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:44 ionlyknowmymind wrote: Just a comment: Even Stephano says PvZ is imbalanced and is favoring Zerg. Maybe you'll say "yeah but he is Stephano", whether this is an accurate point or a way to be a "baller" (I don't like that word but it describes exactly what I want to say). However exactly because he has revolutionized the match up and because he still is someone Protoss players don't really feel comftable against, we can listen to what he says. Why? Because he understands the mu way deeper than anyone who is posting here and still, he says zerg is favored clearly. Stephano has also said (same with like anyone who has lived with him) taht stephano is not a intellectual player but a very instinctual player, who doesnt think about waht to do as much as just knows what to do so take waht he saids with a grain of salt it would be different if it was someone like Artosis who spends practically all his free time looking at the game Bolded is the key phrase. its 20 times more difficult to avoid the toilet then it is to set it up and if you get toileted once you straight lose there | ||
ImNightmare
1575 Posts
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
The current meta game of zerg getting 3 free bases vs a 2 base protoss wasn't something Zerg players developed or worked out over time, it got patched into existence. The last warp and blink nerfs to protoss stopped protoss from being able to punish greedy 3rds without being all in. Protoss's options are to 2 base allin or play from behind trying to take a 3rd way after zerg and with fewer workers. Why did protoss get it's rushes nerfed so hard while zerg rushes did not get nerfed? Squeaky wheels get oil. Re-read the first lines of this post. Also, when zergs take fast 3rds they can attack protoss with the same strength of a protoss 2 base allin, except the zerg isn't all in. He can back off and macro and not be screwed. The biggest issues with toss are: 1. Reliance on FF's to not die, which also means aggression using them is all in. 2. No way to get the map presence and vision that zerg or terran gets (creep, unit mobility, fungal, concussive, sensor towers, overlords/overseers, scans, burrow) the fact that protoss only has obs for map vision, and FF for controlling mobility is a big problem. 3. How late the mobility upgrades charge and blink are. Stim, concussive, medevacs, ling speed, roach speed, fungal, the other races can have all of these things by the time blink or charge is out. (yes, I know chargelots are very good vs terran, I'm not claiming it isn't!) I'm saying there is a huge period of time when they have these mobility advantages and protoss's only answer is FF, which stops them from being out on the map without an all in. Because if your army is not able to kill theirs, you can't retreat, and lose the game. 4. Taking a 3rd, terrans have PF's, flying buildings (which lets terran build 3rds inside the safety of the main) zerg has creep, and both have faster armies than toss in the early/mid game. Protoss should have the same viable opportunity to play for a fast 3rd. This poorly thought out area of protoss design is a big reason there is such small tolerances for what maps are viable or considered balanced. This issue of taking 3rds is closely related to the other 3 points I've made above. How to fix it for HOTS? 1st of all make FF's have health, this alone opens a lot of doors for other protoss units to shine, map design, and micro. As stated in the OP give pylons some way to "phase out" so units can walk through, and you can use them as doors (like a supply depot), put shield batteries or something similar into the game to help protoss who want to go for a macro game and a fast 3rd. Make zealot speed more accessible by lowering the cost, and just get rid of charge (It's really, really bad for starcraft imo!). Then protoss can have a faster army earlier in the game without the over-poweredness of charge or FF. Fungal should not stop blinks or affect air, both are ridiculous, zergs can deal with either without fungal, ( a protoss that goes for air or blink early won't have colossus or storm early. Roach/Hydra can roll a toss who goes for these things before committing to robo! A zerg late game army of BL infestor, corruptor, roach will still rape a late game protoss army even if fungal doesn't affect these things) but as it is now zergs don't even have to bother keeping tabs and scouting well after the early game (at which time they know exactly what protoss has and protoss is blind, as discussed in the OP). Fungal deals with everything so why keep scouting? Protoss has to keep scouting and reacting to Zergs tech all game, it should work both ways! What I think they should do with the oracle is give a "mass blink" ability. Like a mix between recall and blink. It can blink itself and everything under it. This gives protoss some mid game options that it desperately needs without the band-aid that is the mothership core. A mass blink ability would be really really cool, and fun, and interesting. Another thing I'd like to see is nexus providing psi and having a really large vision radius. This would also help deal with protoss's issues vs harass and defense after taking a 3rd. Really it's not any one problem that plagues Protoss. It's the synergy of all of it's issues that makes it such a problematic race. I'm not talking just about it's overall strength (which is lacking late game vs zerg and too good late game vs terran) I'm talking about gameplay. Look at the matchups...... PvP= 1 base play decides the game, PvZ= 2 base all in, or lose to BL infestor unless zerg makes some major mistakes, PvT= turtle untill late game when you smash terrans tier 1 army with storm charge and colossus. Do any of these sound fun to you? (yes smashing terran late game is kind of fun, but the mid game and taking a 3rd is equally as frustrating, that is why so many maps have the free 3rd now, otherwise protoss can't get to that late game and Terran is in command from the time med evacs come out, and there is no swing back into the protoss's favor) It may be balanced with overall win rate, but it's a really shitty way to achieve balance. Real balance is when the game is 50/50 at every phase (or at least closer to 50/50 than what it is now!) Edit: and about the Archon toilet. It is 100% under Zergs control whether or not it is possible. If an archon toilet succeeds, it is only because zerg did not micro properly. I've seen plenty of zergs spread well and keep their broodlords over terrain that the archons cannot reach, making a toilet impossible. It's a crap shoot for protoss, while zerg has control over the situation. Edit 2: I forgot to cover the "endless free units" from zerg, I agree that they shouldn't get the upgrades. and as for spine crawlers, they should make a mothership seem fast! So you at least have a chance to catch them out of position or delay a zerg spine push because they have to leap frog (like tanks!) | ||
Random_Guy09
Canada1010 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:29 Braric wrote: Honestly anyone who is good at this game and understands it is going to agree with almost everything SaSe has stated, as it turns out most of the community is complete garbage and understands nothing about this game except how to cheese and all in so I expect a lot of negative feedback. It's pretty sickening to see certain Zergs who train much less than others simply destroy other Protoss who train almost all day (I wont mention names) because they are more "skilled". Protoss are winning against Zerg right now at a decent rate because of our two clutch all ins we rely on so heavily in the match up, Sentry Immortal and 3 Base Colossus 12 Gate. I dare you to try and find a good macro game where a Protoss outplays and wins against Zerg in late game versus all the things SaSe has stated is to powerful (One where the Zerg doesn't donate the win). People seem to think Protoss do these all ins and timings because they are easy wins, this far from the truth, Protoss players do these types of builds because they feel like its one of the few ways they can logistically play better against a Zerg and win because of it as opposed to the late game where the match hinges on the Zerg messing up. Only game I can really think of was HerO vs Ret on Daybreak at DHS. Was a good macro game then it turned into mass halluc play to stall for mass air units for HerO. | ||
ImNightmare
1575 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:48 Reborn8u wrote: A lot of things about protoss and it's matchups have been bothering me for a very long time. I think the biggest mistake top protoss players have made is waiting until now to speak up. Zerg players of all levels flooded in with complaints until they got a ton of buffs, meanwhile protoss got its core macro mechanic (warp) and its core units nerfed repeatedly. The current meta game of zerg getting 3 free bases vs a 2 base protoss wasn't something Zerg players developed or worked out over time, it got patched into existence. The last warp and blink nerfs to protoss stopped protoss from being able to punish greedy 3rds without being all in. Protoss's options are to 2 base allin or play from behind trying to take a 3rd way after zerg and with fewer workers. Why did protoss get it's rushes nerfed so hard while zerg rushes did not get nerfed? Squeaky wheels get oil. Re-read the first lines of this post. Also, when zergs take fast 3rds they can attack protoss with the same strength of a protoss 2 base allin, except the zerg isn't all in. He can back off and macro and not be screwed. The biggest issues with toss are: 1. Reliance on FF's to not die, which also means aggression using them is all in. 2. No way to get the map presence and vision that zerg or terran gets (creep, unit mobility, fungal, concussive, sensor towers, overlords/overseers, scans, burrow) the fact that protoss only has obs for map vision, and FF for controlling mobility is a big problem. 3. How late the mobility upgrades charge and blink are. Stim, concussive, medevacs, ling speed, roach speed, fungal, the other races can have all of these things by the time blink or charge is out. (yes, I know chargelots are very good vs terran, I'm not claiming it isn't!) I'm saying there is a huge period of time when they have these mobility advantages and protoss's only answer is FF, which stops them from being out on the map without an all in. Because if your army is not able to kill theirs, you can't retreat, and lose the game. 4. Taking a 3rd, terrans have PF's, flying buildings (which lets terran build 3rds inside the safety of the main) zerg has creep, and both have faster armies than toss in the early/mid game. Protoss should have the same viable opportunity to play for a fast 3rd. This poorly thought out area of protoss design is a big reason there is such small tolerances for what maps are viable or considered balanced. This issue of taking 3rds is closely related to the other 3 points I've made above. How to fix it for HOTS? 1st of all make FF's have health, this alone opens a lot of doors for other protoss units to shine, map design, and micro. As stated in the OP give pylons some way to "phase out" so units can walk through, and you can use them as doors (like a supply depot), put shield batteries or something similar into the game to help protoss who want to go for a macro game and a fast 3rd. Make zealot speed more accessible by lowering the cost, and just get rid of charge (It's really, really bad for starcraft imo!). Then protoss can have a faster army earlier in the game without the over-poweredness of charge or FF. Fungal should not stop blinks or affect air, both are ridiculous, zergs can deal with either without fungal, ( a protoss that goes for air or blink early won't have colossus or storm early. Roach/Hydra can roll a toss who goes for these things before committing to robo! A zerg late game army of BL infestor, corruptor, roach will still rape a late game protoss army even if fungal doesn't affect these things) but as it is now zergs don't even have to bother keeping tabs and scouting well after the early game (at which time they know exactly what protoss has and protoss is blind, as discussed in the OP). Fungal deals with everything so why keep scouting? Protoss has to keep scouting and reacting to Zergs tech all game, it should work both ways! What I think they should do with the oracle is give a "mass blink" ability. Like a mix between recall and blink. It can blink itself and everything under it. This gives protoss some mid game options that it desperately needs without the band-aid that is the mothership core. A mass blink ability would be really really cool, and fun, and interesting. Another thing I'd like to see is nexus providing psi and having a really large vision radius. This would also help deal with protoss's issues vs harass and defense after taking a 3rd. Really it's not any one problem that plagues Protoss. It's the synergy of all of it's issues that makes it such a problematic race. I'm not talking just about it's overall strength (which is lacking late game vs zerg and too good late game vs terran) I'm talking about gameplay. Look at the matchups...... PvP= 1 base play decides the game, PvZ= 2 base all in, or lose to BL infestor unless zerg makes some major mistakes, PvT= turtle untill late game when you smash terrans tier 1 army with storm charge and colossus. Do any of these sound fun to you? (yes smashing terran late game is kind of fun, but the mid game and taking a 3rd is equally as frustrating, that is why so many maps have the free 3rd now, otherwise protoss can't get to that late game and Terran is in command from the time med evacs come out, and there is no swing back into the protoss's favor) It may be balanced with overall win rate, but it's a really shitty way to achieve balance. Real balance is when the game is 50/50 at every phase (or at least closer to 50/50 than what it is now!) Excuse me, stephano single handledy brought the 3 base roach build into popularity. What do you mean by no zerg developed it but it was patch in. And yes, we should have 50/50 balance in all match up , so we should nerf toss since toss win rates are higher then zerg right now Edit; and the warp in and blink nerf was to help out pvp with toss players. That says a lot when a race has to be nerf against itself just so their players will play a macro game. There was even a developers blog on sc2 forum which says they did it so toss will learn to macro against each other and not all in all the time. | ||
JLew
Canada353 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On October 19 2012 11:55 saladToss wrote: The fact that infestors counter everything definitely sucks. I think the idea of making infested terrans unable to hit air is actually pretty good. Zerg would still have an answer to protoss air in the form of fungal+corruptors, but it wouldn't be so overwhelming as to make vrs literally obsolete against units they should counter (broodlords). | ||
Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:51 ImNightmare wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 19 2012 12:48 Reborn8u wrote: A lot of things about protoss and it's matchups have been bothering me for a very long time. I think the biggest mistake top protoss players have made is waiting until now to speak up. Zerg players of all levels flooded in with complaints until they got a ton of buffs, meanwhile protoss got its core macro mechanic (warp) and its core units nerfed repeatedly. The current meta game of zerg getting 3 free bases vs a 2 base protoss wasn't something Zerg players developed or worked out over time, it got patched into existence. The last warp and blink nerfs to protoss stopped protoss from being able to punish greedy 3rds without being all in. Protoss's options are to 2 base allin or play from behind trying to take a 3rd way after zerg and with fewer workers. Why did protoss get it's rushes nerfed so hard while zerg rushes did not get nerfed? Squeaky wheels get oil. Re-read the first lines of this post. Also, when zergs take fast 3rds they can attack protoss with the same strength of a protoss 2 base allin, except the zerg isn't all in. He can back off and macro and not be screwed. The biggest issues with toss are: 1. Reliance on FF's to not die, which also means aggression using them is all in. 2. No way to get the map presence and vision that zerg or terran gets (creep, unit mobility, fungal, concussive, sensor towers, overlords/overseers, scans, burrow) the fact that protoss only has obs for map vision, and FF for controlling mobility is a big problem. 3. How late the mobility upgrades charge and blink are. Stim, concussive, medevacs, ling speed, roach speed, fungal, the other races can have all of these things by the time blink or charge is out. (yes, I know chargelots are very good vs terran, I'm not claiming it isn't!) I'm saying there is a huge period of time when they have these mobility advantages and protoss's only answer is FF, which stops them from being out on the map without an all in. Because if your army is not able to kill theirs, you can't retreat, and lose the game. 4. Taking a 3rd, terrans have PF's, flying buildings (which lets terran build 3rds inside the safety of the main) zerg has creep, and both have faster armies than toss in the early/mid game. Protoss should have the same viable opportunity to play for a fast 3rd. This poorly thought out area of protoss design is a big reason there is such small tolerances for what maps are viable or considered balanced. This issue of taking 3rds is closely related to the other 3 points I've made above. How to fix it for HOTS? 1st of all make FF's have health, this alone opens a lot of doors for other protoss units to shine, map design, and micro. As stated in the OP give pylons some way to "phase out" so units can walk through, and you can use them as doors (like a supply depot), put shield batteries or something similar into the game to help protoss who want to go for a macro game and a fast 3rd. Make zealot speed more accessible by lowering the cost, and just get rid of charge (It's really, really bad for starcraft imo!). Then protoss can have a faster army earlier in the game without the over-poweredness of charge or FF. Fungal should not stop blinks or affect air, both are ridiculous, zergs can deal with either without fungal, ( a protoss that goes for air or blink early won't have colossus or storm early. Roach/Hydra can roll a toss who goes for these things before committing to robo! A zerg late game army of BL infestor, corruptor, roach will still rape a late game protoss army even if fungal doesn't affect these things) but as it is now zergs don't even have to bother keeping tabs and scouting well after the early game (at which time they know exactly what protoss has and protoss is blind, as discussed in the OP). Fungal deals with everything so why keep scouting? Protoss has to keep scouting and reacting to Zergs tech all game, it should work both ways! What I think they should do with the oracle is give a "mass blink" ability. Like a mix between recall and blink. It can blink itself and everything under it. This gives protoss some mid game options that it desperately needs without the band-aid that is the mothership core. A mass blink ability would be really really cool, and fun, and interesting. Another thing I'd like to see is nexus providing psi and having a really large vision radius. This would also help deal with protoss's issues vs harass and defense after taking a 3rd. Really it's not any one problem that plagues Protoss. It's the synergy of all of it's issues that makes it such a problematic race. I'm not talking just about it's overall strength (which is lacking late game vs zerg and too good late game vs terran) I'm talking about gameplay. Look at the matchups...... PvP= 1 base play decides the game, PvZ= 2 base all in, or lose to BL infestor unless zerg makes some major mistakes, PvT= turtle untill late game when you smash terrans tier 1 army with storm charge and colossus. Do any of these sound fun to you? (yes smashing terran late game is kind of fun, but the mid game and taking a 3rd is equally as frustrating, that is why so many maps have the free 3rd now, otherwise protoss can't get to that late game and Terran is in command from the time med evacs come out, and there is no swing back into the protoss's favor) It may be balanced with overall win rate, but it's a really shitty way to achieve balance. Real balance is when the game is 50/50 at every phase (or at least closer to 50/50 than what it is now!) Excuse me, stephano single handledy brought the 3 base roach build into popularity. What do you mean by no zerg developed it but it was patch in. And yes, we should have 50/50 balance in all match up , so we should nerf toss since toss win rates are higher then zerg right now Edit; and the warp in and blink nerf was to help out pvp with toss players. That says a lot when a race has to be nerf against itself just so their players will play a macro game. There was even a developers blog on sc2 forum which says they did it so toss will learn to macro against each other and not all in all the time. Nestea and Losira brought the 3 base roach build into popularity, but Stephano did a lot to optimize it. | ||
ImNightmare
1575 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:56 Tachion wrote: Nestea and Losira brought the 3 base roach build into popularity, but Stephano did a lot to optimize it. Yes nestea and losira's build were the first ,but in a way, stephano did popularize it by showing it can work. | ||
Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:53 Drowsy wrote: I think the idea of making infested terrans unable to hit air is actually pretty good. Zerg would still have an answer to protoss air in the form of fungal+corruptors, but it wouldn't be so overwhelming as to make vrs literally obsolete against units they should counter (broodlords). but if VRs arent obsolete then the toss jsut masses them and wins you might say "well make hydras" but by the time you have enough hydras to actually fight the VR ball and kill it then he has the perfect anti-hydra army and jsut bowls you over if infesters couldnt kill VRs then Zerg just loses 100% of macro games because then we have no way to stop mass Air without relying on the hydra that is such a joke every Zerg whos used them in the past like year always jokes that they "didnt know what they were thinking" and stuff like that Hydras are so bad that Toss sometimes open air to try to trick them into making them | ||
ImNightmare
1575 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:57 Forikorder wrote: but if VRs arent obsolete then the toss jsut masses them and wins you might say "well make hydras" but by the time you have enough hydras to actually fight the VR ball and kill it then he has the perfect anti-hydra army and jsut bowls you over if infesters couldnt kill VRs then Zerg just loses 100% of macro games because then we have no way to stop mass Air without relying on the hydra that is such a joke every Zerg whos used them in the past like year always jokes that they "didnt know what they were thinking" and stuff like that Hydras are so bad that Toss sometimes open air to try to trick them into making them Should just show him the developers blog on why they decided not to remove fungal hitting air.Saves so much more time. | ||
Whatson
United States5353 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:57 Forikorder wrote: but if VRs arent obsolete then the toss jsut masses them and wins you might say "well make hydras" but by the time you have enough hydras to actually fight the VR ball and kill it then he has the perfect anti-hydra army and jsut bowls you over if infesters couldnt kill VRs then Zerg just loses 100% of macro games because then we have no way to stop mass Air without relying on the hydra that is such a joke every Zerg whos used them in the past like year always jokes that they "didnt know what they were thinking" and stuff like that Hydras are so bad that Toss sometimes open air to try to trick them into making them Wasn't in fungal that made them obsolete in the first place, or was it a mix of fungal + IT? I remember Mana using VR-Collosi against Dimaga in some tournament, and he just kept on getting fungaled because the VRs always clumped. | ||
ImNightmare
1575 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:58 Whatson wrote: Wasn't in fungal that made them obsolete in the first place, or was it a mix of fungal + IT? I remember Mana using VR-Collosi against Dimaga in some tournament, and he just kept on getting fungaled because the VRs always clumped. Oh oh , I remember that game, but I think that was before the infestor nerf took place? At that time fungal was 8 secs I believe so chain fungaling was easier. | ||
Heavenfallz
Australia73 Posts
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:58 Whatson wrote: Wasn't in fungal that made them obsolete in the first place, or was it a mix of fungal + IT? I remember Mana using VR-Collosi against Dimaga in some tournament, and he just kept on getting fungaled because the VRs always clumped. probably alot more fungal then IT, IT's arent so hot against fast moving air units | ||
Irre
United States646 Posts
this is crazy time for sc2! Its like an explosion of QQ about the game that was bottled up inside for 2 years lol. | ||
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