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On October 19 2012 13:01 Irre wrote: how exactly are all the complaints coming from P and Z?? Did I miss something and all of a sudden terran is playable by anyone other than like 10 koreans?
this is crazy time for sc2! Its like an explosion of QQ about the game that was bottled up inside for 2 years lol. Zerg aren't complaining. Toss are having a heyday and terrans are just grabbing popcorns. Always happens you know, you can switch the order of the races names and you will have the situation a few weeks ago when zergs are just watching terrans and toss go against each other over storms.
Edit: pretty funny how Sase and Naniwa are the ones making the most noise though. MC did one interview. Maybe sase and naniwa has made up? I remember one fanfiction that I saw regarding this two, good lord, made the hairs on my arms rise up.
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On October 19 2012 12:51 ImNightmare wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2012 12:48 Reborn8u wrote: A lot of things about protoss and it's matchups have been bothering me for a very long time. I think the biggest mistake top protoss players have made is waiting until now to speak up. Zerg players of all levels flooded in with complaints until they got a ton of buffs, meanwhile protoss got its core macro mechanic (warp) and its core units nerfed repeatedly.
The current meta game of zerg getting 3 free bases vs a 2 base protoss wasn't something Zerg players developed or worked out over time, it got patched into existence. The last warp and blink nerfs to protoss stopped protoss from being able to punish greedy 3rds without being all in. Protoss's options are to 2 base allin or play from behind trying to take a 3rd way after zerg and with fewer workers. Why did protoss get it's rushes nerfed so hard while zerg rushes did not get nerfed? Squeaky wheels get oil. Re-read the first lines of this post. Also, when zergs take fast 3rds they can attack protoss with the same strength of a protoss 2 base allin, except the zerg isn't all in. He can back off and macro and not be screwed.
The biggest issues with toss are:
1. Reliance on FF's to not die, which also means aggression using them is all in.
2. No way to get the map presence and vision that zerg or terran gets (creep, unit mobility, fungal, concussive, sensor towers, overlords/overseers, scans, burrow) the fact that protoss only has obs for map vision, and FF for controlling mobility is a big problem.
3. How late the mobility upgrades charge and blink are. Stim, concussive, medevacs, ling speed, roach speed, fungal, the other races can have all of these things by the time blink or charge is out. (yes, I know chargelots are very good vs terran, I'm not claiming it isn't!) I'm saying there is a huge period of time when they have these mobility advantages and protoss's only answer is FF, which stops them from being out on the map without an all in. Because if your army is not able to kill theirs, you can't retreat, and lose the game.
4. Taking a 3rd, terrans have PF's, flying buildings (which lets terran build 3rds inside the safety of the main) zerg has creep, and both have faster armies than toss in the early/mid game. Protoss should have the same viable opportunity to play for a fast 3rd. This poorly thought out area of protoss design is a big reason there is such small tolerances for what maps are viable or considered balanced. This issue of taking 3rds is closely related to the other 3 points I've made above.
How to fix it for HOTS?
1st of all make FF's have health, this alone opens a lot of doors for other protoss units to shine, map design, and micro. As stated in the OP give pylons some way to "phase out" so units can walk through, and you can use them as doors (like a supply depot), put shield batteries or something similar into the game to help protoss who want to go for a macro game and a fast 3rd. Make zealot speed more accessible by lowering the cost, and just get rid of charge (It's really, really bad for starcraft imo!). Then protoss can have a faster army earlier in the game without the over-poweredness of charge or FF. Fungal should not stop blinks or affect air, both are ridiculous, zergs can deal with either without fungal, ( a protoss that goes for air or blink early won't have colossus or storm early. Roach/Hydra can roll a toss who goes for these things before committing to robo! A zerg late game army of BL infestor, corruptor, roach will still rape a late game protoss army even if fungal doesn't affect these things) but as it is now zergs don't even have to bother keeping tabs and scouting well after the early game (at which time they know exactly what protoss has and protoss is blind, as discussed in the OP). Fungal deals with everything so why keep scouting? Protoss has to keep scouting and reacting to Zergs tech all game, it should work both ways!
What I think they should do with the oracle is give a "mass blink" ability. Like a mix between recall and blink. It can blink itself and everything under it. This gives protoss some mid game options that it desperately needs without the band-aid that is the mothership core. A mass blink ability would be really really cool, and fun, and interesting.
Another thing I'd like to see is nexus providing psi and having a really large vision radius. This would also help deal with protoss's issues vs harass and defense after taking a 3rd.
Really it's not any one problem that plagues Protoss. It's the synergy of all of it's issues that makes it such a problematic race. I'm not talking just about it's overall strength (which is lacking late game vs zerg and too good late game vs terran) I'm talking about gameplay.
Look at the matchups...... PvP= 1 base play decides the game, PvZ= 2 base all in, or lose to BL infestor unless zerg makes some major mistakes, PvT= turtle untill late game when you smash terrans tier 1 army with storm charge and colossus. Do any of these sound fun to you? (yes smashing terran late game is kind of fun, but the mid game and taking a 3rd is equally as frustrating, that is why so many maps have the free 3rd now, otherwise protoss can't get to that late game and Terran is in command from the time med evacs come out, and there is no swing back into the protoss's favor) It may be balanced with overall win rate, but it's a really shitty way to achieve balance. Real balance is when the game is 50/50 at every phase (or at least closer to 50/50 than what it is now!) Excuse me, stephano single handledy brought the 3 base roach build into popularity. What do you mean by no zerg developed it but it was patch in. And yes, we should have 50/50 balance in all match up , so we should nerf toss since toss win rates are higher then zerg right now Edit; and the warp in and blink nerf was to help out pvp with toss players. That says a lot when a race has to be nerf against itself just so their players will play a macro game. There was even a developers blog on sc2 forum which says they did it so toss will learn to macro against each other and not all in all the time.
I worded this poorly, your point is somewhat valid. What I mean is, it wasn't something that came about on it's own from player development of the meta game. Protoss got nerfed which made it viable. (if that is any clearer?) For example, when terrans started using all them ghosts late game vs zerg, it wasn't something that happened because of changes, it just took time to figure it out....
Also, to some of the other comments that pvp got nerfed because of protoss players just being bad and not wanting to figure out macro. Your thinking is completely backwards, viability exists because of what works, players don't pick what is viable, the games mechanics and rules dictate that. Believe me, you couldn't be more wrong, and many protoss players begged for something to be done. The problem is that every time blizzard makes a patch to change a matchup (literally every time, it's happened so many times now) it makes huge changes to other matchups. Which really boils down to them not properly testing things out, and getting good feedback before they are implemented. These are very minor points to my post, what do you think about the rest?
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On October 19 2012 12:58 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:57 Forikorder wrote:On October 19 2012 12:53 Drowsy wrote:On October 19 2012 11:55 saladToss wrote: The fact that infestors counter everything definitely sucks. I think the idea of making infested terrans unable to hit air is actually pretty good. Zerg would still have an answer to protoss air in the form of fungal+corruptors, but it wouldn't be so overwhelming as to make vrs literally obsolete against units they should counter (broodlords). but if VRs arent obsolete then the toss jsut masses them and wins you might say "well make hydras" but by the time you have enough hydras to actually fight the VR ball and kill it then he has the perfect anti-hydra army and jsut bowls you over if infesters couldnt kill VRs then Zerg just loses 100% of macro games because then we have no way to stop mass Air without relying on the hydra that is such a joke every Zerg whos used them in the past like year always jokes that they "didnt know what they were thinking" and stuff like that Hydras are so bad that Toss sometimes open air to try to trick them into making them Wasn't in fungal that made them obsolete in the first place, or was it a mix of fungal + IT? I remember Mana using VR-Collosi against Dimaga in some tournament, and he just kept on getting fungaled because the VRs always clumped. The problem is that zerg's anti air is awful except for Infestors so if Infestor anti air gets nerfed then Zerg is fucked.
I actually think Infestors are ok vs Protoss seeing as Protoss seems to win so much anyway but they are a problem in TvZ. Inestors make Terrans best unit almost obsolete and then Terran has very little to fall back on while they get raped by Brood, Corrupter, Ling
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What the hell?
Putting a timer on spawning pool?
Seriously Sase?
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On October 19 2012 13:04 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:51 ImNightmare wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2012 12:48 Reborn8u wrote: A lot of things about protoss and it's matchups have been bothering me for a very long time. I think the biggest mistake top protoss players have made is waiting until now to speak up. Zerg players of all levels flooded in with complaints until they got a ton of buffs, meanwhile protoss got its core macro mechanic (warp) and its core units nerfed repeatedly.
The current meta game of zerg getting 3 free bases vs a 2 base protoss wasn't something Zerg players developed or worked out over time, it got patched into existence. The last warp and blink nerfs to protoss stopped protoss from being able to punish greedy 3rds without being all in. Protoss's options are to 2 base allin or play from behind trying to take a 3rd way after zerg and with fewer workers. Why did protoss get it's rushes nerfed so hard while zerg rushes did not get nerfed? Squeaky wheels get oil. Re-read the first lines of this post. Also, when zergs take fast 3rds they can attack protoss with the same strength of a protoss 2 base allin, except the zerg isn't all in. He can back off and macro and not be screwed.
The biggest issues with toss are:
1. Reliance on FF's to not die, which also means aggression using them is all in.
2. No way to get the map presence and vision that zerg or terran gets (creep, unit mobility, fungal, concussive, sensor towers, overlords/overseers, scans, burrow) the fact that protoss only has obs for map vision, and FF for controlling mobility is a big problem.
3. How late the mobility upgrades charge and blink are. Stim, concussive, medevacs, ling speed, roach speed, fungal, the other races can have all of these things by the time blink or charge is out. (yes, I know chargelots are very good vs terran, I'm not claiming it isn't!) I'm saying there is a huge period of time when they have these mobility advantages and protoss's only answer is FF, which stops them from being out on the map without an all in. Because if your army is not able to kill theirs, you can't retreat, and lose the game.
4. Taking a 3rd, terrans have PF's, flying buildings (which lets terran build 3rds inside the safety of the main) zerg has creep, and both have faster armies than toss in the early/mid game. Protoss should have the same viable opportunity to play for a fast 3rd. This poorly thought out area of protoss design is a big reason there is such small tolerances for what maps are viable or considered balanced. This issue of taking 3rds is closely related to the other 3 points I've made above.
How to fix it for HOTS?
1st of all make FF's have health, this alone opens a lot of doors for other protoss units to shine, map design, and micro. As stated in the OP give pylons some way to "phase out" so units can walk through, and you can use them as doors (like a supply depot), put shield batteries or something similar into the game to help protoss who want to go for a macro game and a fast 3rd. Make zealot speed more accessible by lowering the cost, and just get rid of charge (It's really, really bad for starcraft imo!). Then protoss can have a faster army earlier in the game without the over-poweredness of charge or FF. Fungal should not stop blinks or affect air, both are ridiculous, zergs can deal with either without fungal, ( a protoss that goes for air or blink early won't have colossus or storm early. Roach/Hydra can roll a toss who goes for these things before committing to robo! A zerg late game army of BL infestor, corruptor, roach will still rape a late game protoss army even if fungal doesn't affect these things) but as it is now zergs don't even have to bother keeping tabs and scouting well after the early game (at which time they know exactly what protoss has and protoss is blind, as discussed in the OP). Fungal deals with everything so why keep scouting? Protoss has to keep scouting and reacting to Zergs tech all game, it should work both ways!
What I think they should do with the oracle is give a "mass blink" ability. Like a mix between recall and blink. It can blink itself and everything under it. This gives protoss some mid game options that it desperately needs without the band-aid that is the mothership core. A mass blink ability would be really really cool, and fun, and interesting.
Another thing I'd like to see is nexus providing psi and having a really large vision radius. This would also help deal with protoss's issues vs harass and defense after taking a 3rd.
Really it's not any one problem that plagues Protoss. It's the synergy of all of it's issues that makes it such a problematic race. I'm not talking just about it's overall strength (which is lacking late game vs zerg and too good late game vs terran) I'm talking about gameplay.
Look at the matchups...... PvP= 1 base play decides the game, PvZ= 2 base all in, or lose to BL infestor unless zerg makes some major mistakes, PvT= turtle untill late game when you smash terrans tier 1 army with storm charge and colossus. Do any of these sound fun to you? (yes smashing terran late game is kind of fun, but the mid game and taking a 3rd is equally as frustrating, that is why so many maps have the free 3rd now, otherwise protoss can't get to that late game and Terran is in command from the time med evacs come out, and there is no swing back into the protoss's favor) It may be balanced with overall win rate, but it's a really shitty way to achieve balance. Real balance is when the game is 50/50 at every phase (or at least closer to 50/50 than what it is now!) Excuse me, stephano single handledy brought the 3 base roach build into popularity. What do you mean by no zerg developed it but it was patch in. And yes, we should have 50/50 balance in all match up , so we should nerf toss since toss win rates are higher then zerg right now Edit; and the warp in and blink nerf was to help out pvp with toss players. That says a lot when a race has to be nerf against itself just so their players will play a macro game. There was even a developers blog on sc2 forum which says they did it so toss will learn to macro against each other and not all in all the time. I worded this poorly, your point is somewhat valid. What I mean is, it wasn't something that came about on it's own from player development of the meta game. Protoss got nerfed which made it viable. (if that is any clearer?) For example, when terrans started using all them ghosts late game vs zerg, it wasn't something that happened because of changes, it just took time to figure it out.... Also, to some of the other comments that pvp got nerfed because of protoss players just being bad and not wanting to figure out macro. Your thinking is completely backwards, viability exists because of what works, players don't pick what is viable, the games mechanics and rules dictate that. Believe me, you couldn't be more wrong, and many protoss players begged for something to be done. The problem is that every time blizzard makes a patch to change a matchup (literally every time, it's happened so many times now) it makes huge changes to other matchups. Which really boils down to them not properly testing things out, and getting good feedback before they are implemented. This is a very minor point, what do you think about the rest? Yes, I agree with you on the points on toss match ups being so fucked up. It says something when you turtle to a deathball against terran, all in against protoss, 2 base all in against zerg. But is it a race problem? No I disagree. Design problem? hell yeah, toss units are stupidly designed. Regarding the issue of toss being forced to macro, it came from blizzard not, it was in one of their situation reports where they talked about the pylon nerf. Problem is my opinions would not reflect the general opinions toss have. Toss will suggest nerfs to the other two races, zerg and terran would just tell them to l2p. The only one who knows the datas are blizzard but they are keeping quiet on the issue, we won't know what is the main problem UNLESS blizzard talks.
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I like some of these ideas, particularly some of the oracle tweak ideas, I think they have a lot of potential.
Hope Blizzard sees this and takes it into consideration. I think we need to see the infestor nerfed and nearly all other zerg units buffed, allowing zerg 1 and 2 base to be more viable thus allowing map making to be more varied (so that a third can actually be farther away and things of that nature). Pro corner with destiny, desrow, and morrow got me thinking things like that.
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Too many nerfs on Zerg, while buffing protoss. This doesn't sound like a "lets improve sc2" this sounds like a balance whine. :/
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On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though.
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On October 19 2012 13:06 FakeDeath wrote: What the hell?
Putting a timer on spawning pool?
Seriously Sase?
Yeah I like how he complains about a 6 pool vs nexus first but as a zerg player we can't hatch first or we die to a cannon rush. AND when wanting to go nexus first you should be scouting and if you see an early pool you put down a forge and put a cannon and you are fine, where as, as a zerg player if you want to hatch first it has to be done blindly and praying to god that toss doesn't scout you in time and goes nexus first.
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On October 19 2012 13:10 mayneeahk wrote: I like some of these ideas, particularly some of the oracle tweak ideas, I think they have a lot of potential.
Hope Blizzard sees this and takes it into consideration. I think we need to see the infestor nerfed and nearly all other zerg units buffed, allowing zerg 1 and 2 base to be more viable thus allowing map making to be more varied (so that a third can actually be farther away and things of that nature). Pro corner with destiny, desrow, and morrow got me thinking things like that. But to be honest ,I as a zerg would be really really happy if we can a unit that can harassed before lair just like the mother ship core type of unit if it means nerfing the infestor. Would make the game more fun for me and actually makes the match up more interesting with battles rather then drone drone drone on 3 base.
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On October 19 2012 13:10 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry. Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though.
It's very rare for a player to win in a normal game without infestors. When I mean winning without infestors is normally when zerg does something gimicky. I am not counting when a roach/ling 2 base all in works or on the rare occasion the 200 max roach push works (now of days protosses deal with this so so well I rarely see it work).
A zerg can't go all game without infestors he loses otherwise. for instance if you see a zerg being aggressive at lair tech with roach/ling/muta he pretty much has to do a ton of damage or kill the protoss. It really is essentially an all in because unless you do significant damage it is hard to get those infestors out and tech up.
There are gimicky things you can do but you will never consistently beat a protoss or terran player without infestors in the way zerg is designed right now.
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On October 19 2012 13:14 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:10 SupLilSon wrote:On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry. Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though. It's very rare for a player to win in a normal game without infestors. When I mean winning without infestors is normally when zerg does something gimicky. I am not counting when a roach/ling 2 base all in works or on the rare occasion the 200 max roach push works (now of days protosses deal with this so so well I rarely see it work). A zerg can't go all game without infestors he loses otherwise. for instance if you see a zerg being aggressive at lair tech with roach/ling/muta he pretty much has to do a ton of damage or kill the protoss. It really is essentially an all in because unless you do significant damage it is hard to get those infestors out and tech up. There are gimicky things you can do but you will never consistently beat a protoss or terran player without infestors in the way zerg is designed right now. Just to back up what he said, look at the recent MC vs DRG game 2 where he harassed the hell out of mc and basically won the game with muta ling but can't end it because he needed infestors and broodlords. That tells you how important the infestor is to us when we got a huge advantage but can't end a game without that worm.
Source: OSL Ro4 game 2. Search up that vod.
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On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry. Blade I love your stream and your general demeanor when it comes to these threads, but right now I can't agree with you, what SaSe says about the early game is completely true, especially since the Queen buff. There wouldn't be a buff to compensate for the nerf since the Queen buff was just a buff out of no where, nothing to precipitate it. Also I don't want to play the ad hominem card, but right now its a semi-pro/low level pro who also has a job while being GM against one of the top 5 foreign protosses. I do very much agree about sentry/infestor issues, but they have been around forever and it seems like blizz has no intention of changing it.
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On October 19 2012 13:18 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry. Blade I love your stream and your general demeanor when it comes to these threads, but right now I can't agree with you, what SaSe says about the early game is completely true, especially since the Queen buff. There wouldn't be a buff to compensate for the nerf since the Queen buff was just a buff out of no where, nothing to precipitate it. Also I don't want to play the ad hominem card, but right now its a semi-pro/low level pro who also has a job while being GM against one of the top 5 foreign protosses. I do very much agree about sentry/infestor issues, but they have been around forever and it seems like blizz has no intention of changing it.
The Queen buff wasn't just out of nowhere. It was meant to address the ZvT issues where Terran had too much mapcontrol with hellions.
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Shocked to see somebody who should have a very good understanding of the game be so strongly biased.
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These oracle suggestions are really nice... I like the idea of a extremely high utility lategame caster for toss.
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the biggest problem isnt balance imo, the biggest problem is entertainment watching the PvZ matchup. Its so extremly boring.
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On October 19 2012 13:10 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry. Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though.
Life makes plenty of Infestors. Just because he plays more aggressive early on and doesn't turtle to hive doesn't mean he doesn't make them, did you actually watch his games?
Leenock uses Infestors heavily too, I don't know what games you're really watching.
The only reason Muta/Ling still works sometimes when players like DRG or Leenock use it, is because the Infestor option exists, and Terrans don't expect it 100% of the time like they used to. And even then, Zerg often has to transition to Infestors to finish the game.
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the problem with toss being strong midgame is that we have no way to press our advantage without going all-in. So what if we are strong in the midgame, we only have two options with it. Do a two base all-in because we can't just pressure off of two bases or we use our midgame advantage to secure a 3rd which then negates our midgame advantage.
Yeah I like how he complains about a 6 pool vs nexus first but as a zerg player we can't hatch first or we die to a cannon rush. AND when wanting to go nexus first you should be scouting and if you see an early pool you put down a forge and put a cannon and you are fine, where as, as a zerg player if you want to hatch first it has to be done blindly and praying to god that toss doesn't scout you in time and goes nexus first.
Its also a lot easier to attack non moving buildings then it is to attack a lings in ur base.
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On October 19 2012 13:29 MysteryMeat1 wrote:the problem with toss being strong midgame is that we have no way to press our advantage without going all-in. So what if we are strong in the midgame, we only have two options with it. Do a two base all-in because we can't just pressure off of two bases or we use our midgame advantage to secure a 3rd which then negates our midgame advantage. Show nested quote +Yeah I like how he complains about a 6 pool vs nexus first but as a zerg player we can't hatch first or we die to a cannon rush. AND when wanting to go nexus first you should be scouting and if you see an early pool you put down a forge and put a cannon and you are fine, where as, as a zerg player if you want to hatch first it has to be done blindly and praying to god that toss doesn't scout you in time and goes nexus first. Its also a lot easier to attack non moving buildings then it is to attack a lings in ur base. not when they're blocked by pylons and you cant do anything
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