So wanted to do this for some time but been practising alot and I'm in general really lazy to write stuff but here we go.
Right now I feel the biggest problem is the pvz matchup. There is so many ways toss can lose from the early game to late game by really really small mistakes such as 6pool and random ling runbys in the start. I don't really mind early pools. I don't mind ling runbys either, as a professional player I should not let stuff like this happen. The thing I feel is really unfair though is that if a zerg makes one of these, they will never be extremly far behind. If toss goes for a double proxy, the only chance it will work is if zerg makes hatch first, and then yet it's not a freewin like it is for zerg if toss makes nex first vs 6 pool. Difference is if toss fails double proxy it's over. My suggestion would be to put a timer on spawning pool, like you can only build it after 1:20 or whatever the time for 10 pool is. Then mindgames would still be possible since a 10pool crush a nexus first noscout. The only other option I would see to make this fair is to make the rampblockers a building with 0 vision you can select and salvage(your own one only of course) if you so would like to(for no money lol). Then zerg wouldn't have to worry about double bunker and toss could salvage it and make a cute little wall so we actually get ahead vs a 9 probe scouted 6pool.
Terran can salvage bunkers, lift buildings, up down supply depots, cruise around and stuff. Zerg sees everything and moves faster. What does toss do? Nothing. Random ling runbys... The most annoying thing with this I see is even if you have a probe in the choke or a warping in unit, lings still get through. This has been an issue for the 2 years I played the game and yet has nothing been done. A probe on hold should be a probe on hold. At least that makes sense to me. Back to what I first said, what can toss do. Regen shield woooohooooo. How about pylons got a feature similar to terrans supply depots. They could put up some psi between itself and another building(1 hex) and no units can pass through. Would open the possibility for toss to have more than one hole in the walls vs zerg and therefore make toss more mobile in your own base. Also would free up a little supply.
One thing I never understood is when they buffed queen range and overlord speed so zergs can scout easier. How is toss supposed to scout. A good zerg will always have 2 lings outside toss base, the probe will be hurt when it arrives at zerg base. Queen will kill it easily. Toss will never be able to scout if zerg makes gas or no gas and therefor toss has never any change of knowing if zerg is doing a late allin which hits before warpgate or not. This is completely impossible, believe me, I tried alot. I don't know how to address this issue, overlords move way too fast. They can hide in the air and above highgrounds, it should be enough imo. Or just give queen same range as before, but maybe that would crush the tvz matchup. I guess I can send 3 probes if I wanna scout...
Ok lets move to lategame. Here is where I tried most lately and failed most aswell, tried almost every unit composition. There is some good ones. But it's extremly hard and it doesn't matter how good toss plays in most cases. If zerg doesnt F up badly, they will win. I think this is mainly because of one reason.It's not infestors, it's not broodlords. Surprise surprise. It's because spines and spores can move. It doesn't matter if they can move outside creep or not. Just that they can move is really bugged imo. The new style of koreans is making 100 drones, 20 spines before toss pushes out and just wait with infestors. Then there is no way toss can attack into it(because infestors will lock your army if u do and keep doing so until it's dead). Later they just spend all gas on a few broodlords, alot of infestors and all minerals on drones/spines/spores. They wont even build a few lings to harass with lol. Spread creep until they are in range of toss base and then toss is forced a fight vs the extra 100 supply 0 food army. Don't forget infested terrans and broodlings are 0 supply aswell. I don't know what would be the best option to fix the pvz lategame but I can write a list of things that could be tweaked. But honestly static defense is supposed to be static defense. Not 0 supply attack units. Maybe give them a 15 range from where they can move where you first built them. I will start my list by the buggiest thing in the whole game.
*Remove mothership. We are not playing wc3. We are not playing dota neither any other moba game either. It's just silly to have something you can just have one of. It's way too much swings to have a unit like this. Good vortex vs bad vortex vs no vortex vs reversed vortex. It's like playing World Series of Poker with jokers. Guess only Darvin Moon would like that. To balance starcraft a very important thing is to remove randomness as much as possible and this is by far the biggest random factor in the game.
*Infestor needs some tweaking and this is what I have been thinking about for the last days. How to fix this little unit. It's good against everything and you can't really overmake them in the same way you can overmake templars, templars will never be effective when you reach a certain amount. To me the most unfair thing is infestors can move under the ground without even an upgrade for moving. They are a spellcaster(maybe not but they got abilities or how to say). They always go in last in fights. If the zerg lose the fight they just burrow and dig their way home to the safety line. Even if you got blink you still need an observer and since the observer is much slower than a burrowed infestor you are unlikely to catch up. So first point, remove burrow movement, it doesn't make sense.
*Infestors can throw infested terrans while underground. Doesn't really make sense to me either.
*Infested terrans and broodlings gets upgrades. It's really powerful for 0 food units.
*Infested terrans in eggs are being ignored if other units are possible to attack, this is an AI bug that needs to be fixed asap.
*Infested terrans can attack air. Makes toss air pretty useless. Could remove this.
*You can't fungel something that's fungeled. This way stalkers would be able to blink away and not be stuck forever.
*Make infestors smaller so it requires more micro vs storm and collosus.
*Fungal doesn't reveal dts, yet they hold them in place and deal damage.
*Give infestor a HIVE upgrage for moving underground. Now they just need burrow and they get to move for free.
*You cant move while being fungled. Alot of people say this is the issue with infestors, I don't really agree, but sure it's annoying.
*Neutral parasite on mothership means game over. Make it impossible to neutral parasite Mothership. But yeah, I rather see the mothership removed.
* Creep gives way too much vision, speed is pretty extreme too. But let's focus on the vision. It's way very hard to get a warpprism or a sneaky zealot flank into the zergs exp late game because of the vision creep gives. I would suggest creep tumours have a vision of 2,5 or something. Then zerg would have to pay more attention to what's going on.
*Make pylon like a flower, when it's complete you get your supply and psi, but you can't warp in stuff for 10 seconds.
* Give pylon the old range. You said it was made shorter to stop 4gate. My suggestion is way better with the flowerpylon. I get attention disorder every lategame I wanna warp in 20 units and the range is not enough. We can't warp at ramps anymore. We can't warp on buildings or units and in Hots we can't warp up ramps either.. if you don't want us to warp stuff just remove warpgate Could also choose to make units which is warping in really small and become bigger during the process it's warping.
*Phoenix could me removed or make them armored. They make pvp too random right now. Maybe a spell which makes static defense inable to attack, like in bw
* AI attack range should be like 8 when not on hold. I hate when I get dropped and I feel it's really close to the units. Then I go back micro the big battle. After fight I look back at base and my units are just standing there watching the marnies drinking crystal after the 50th probekill. Alternative make the warping in rally point attack move.
I am not saying all these things are needed. For infestor probably one or two.
Make a tab in hotkeys called priority units or something. You should be able to choose yourself what order you want to have your units. For example if you have templars and sentries in the same army you should be able if you want to have sentries or templars first. Hope you understand, like if you only have medivacs and marauders in the tab you have to press tab T to stim, should be able to choose if you want it like this or if u want marauders first so you don't have to tab.
I am really tired after playing 12 hours and writing this for 2 hours so I will try to cut it down but I really wanna share some opinions on HOTS aswell. I never played a single game of HOTS but I read a little about it. Today I read they wanna change the oracle. I thought alot about how to make it a cool and skillful unit. Back when they introduced it in the Alfa I remember artosis talking about how much multitasking it would take. Back then until I saw someone stream in the beta I thought entomb disabled ONE mineral patch. Maybe make entomb 5 or 10 energy to cost and disable one mineral patch. This way it will require alot more multitasking, it will lose more shield and u might not have time to entomb all fields before it takes damage. It has to something you can shiftclick though.
Also I saw you can make tempest without fleet beacon. This made me think then maybe the oracle should be the new arbiter kinda. You are looking for new spells, I will give you some cool ideas.
*The oracle costs x/y(I would suggest something like 125/250) and takes 3 supply and can now attack(not something strong, just something which makes it able to defend itself vs 1 muta or so)
*The oracle can can cloak one unit OR building for 45 seconds for 50 energy. This would be really awesome to use on warp prism or hts. Also would good against nexus snipes which happens so easily. Would it be imba? Doubt it when u have to make a fleetbeacon lol.
*The oracle can recall 8-12 units(has to be tweaked I guess) for 100 energy. Would make toss really mobile lategame compared to now and very fun to play instead of trying to get to a deathball. Would also be cool so we might see a minimap full of stuff like we did in good old BW in the progames where stuff was going on everywhere.
*The oracle instant dispells enemy summoned units such as broodlings/infested terrans or instant regens 50 shields in a radius of 2,5 for 75 energy.
* The Oracle can reveal the position of the opponents units all over the map for 5 seconds in the same way terran sensor tower does. You don't see what units, just where they are. 50 energy.
3 hours now. Really really sleepy, sorry, wanna write so much more
Give nexus ability to attack within + reveal within 10 range for 50 energy. And remove mothership core! I didn't comment much on terran because I didn't read much about it in Hots.
Would be happy to discuss more. Would be happy to talk to Blizzard. I might see whiny but I think I am pretty objective. I only play the game because I love to play it. I wanna win by skill, speed and cleverness, not by imba.
Thank you for reading Best Regads, Kim 'Sase' Hammar
Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it"
Just a little correction here: "*Fungal doesn't reveal dts, yet they hold them in place and deal damage." Fungal does actually reveal any cloaked units that get fungaled.
On October 19 2012 11:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it"
On October 19 2012 11:45 Chylith wrote: Just a little correction here: "*Fungal doesn't reveal dts, yet they hold them in place and deal damage." Fungal does actually reveal any cloaked units that get fungaled.
He is saying that they shouldn't reveal clocked units.
Nor should they do anything, and be much easier to kill.
On October 19 2012 11:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it"
On October 19 2012 11:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it"
So now we have the opportunity to have your unsolicited opinion about unsolicited opinions for everyone to see. Also, their*.
can't say I agree with all of your proposed changes but yea, it's hard to balance this game. Alot of the issues mentioned are spot on though. PvZ is a major problem, playing in it and watching it. It's too turtle for both sides. The whole late game is too slow.
On October 19 2012 11:45 ssg wrote: Protoss crying about protoss. Shocker.
Protoss certainly has a better understanding of Protoss then Zerg or Terran does... especially when he's one of the best Protoss foreigners who plays the game.
I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
PvZ definitely needs fixing, but I'm not sure if all the ideas you proposed would make it. As long as the infestor/fungal/ITs are nerfed to something more reasonable, I'm happy.
Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it"
...lol if anyone should be allowed to have an opinion, it should be someone that gets paid to play the game and knows the ins and outs. Why would people bitch about something like this?
I liked you back in TFT, so I still like you now. I agree on a lot of the infestor shit...esp broods + ITerrans getting upgrades.
Also, the infestor size is so retarded. I can EMP like 10+ templars... or like 3 infestors. And nothing like 5 queens holding a ramp forever until a new round of lings are made -_-
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
This is always my favorite...What's annoying about terran? Losing to infestors and forcefields? lol =)
Great read Sase! I don't know that I agree 100% with everything you are talking about, but I'm glad you posted this.
Glad that so much of the community, especially pros and people who might get listened to are speaking up and addressing issues. Even if the forums are getting flooding with "How I feel about SC2" threads, it's better than silence IMO.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
Life disagrees. And he makes top tier terrans look extremely silly with his disagreement.
On October 19 2012 11:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it"
These threads:
A. Are not all that common - there are maybe 2-3 per month tops B. Usually go in Strategy discussion or Blogs (and this may be moved to Strategy discussion) C. Should get special privileges because of their creator's status. No offense, but it's stupid to think that Random Person A's opinion is as important as SaSe's, even after the race bias.
Thank for the writeup Sase. I don't really agree with most of what you proposes but it is alway nice to see pros posting their opinions on the game. =) I do agree infectors is way too good and lategame pvz is retarded.
Infestors need a tweak in many different areas. Such a stupid unit in the game; throws many free units that can tank/dps, an aoe spell that makes the opponent unable to micro??? I think they should have a CD for infested terran, maybe like 2 seconds and fungal can be changed by only slowing units or it not affecting massive units. It's frustrating to see your mother ship fungaled and die before it can even get close to a vortex.
I think they should have a CD for infested terran, maybe like 2 seconds and fungal can be changed by only slowing units or it not affecting massive units.
But what would not effecting massive units do for any matchup? Ultras, thors, collsai, and archons? Thors are already so slow they don't move. Excluding air.
I say change fungal growth to just plauge. Damage down to 1 HP, can't kill, and doesn't stop movement.
I'm not good enough to weigh in on balance, but I just want to note that the first several paragraphs of Sase's post is basically exactly what people complain about BW PvZ since forever.
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
Remember that this is all assuming that he wants the mothership removed. And most of that list of zerg nerf is for the infestor only (he did say just one or two of those nerfs would do the job)
I totally agree with almost everything you said. The ones i don't agree with sase i will post about later since it's so damn late here But yeah PvZ needs a fix that's for sure! Like Zergs can turtle up so hard late game so the protoss cant do anything.
On October 19 2012 11:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it"
These threads:
A. Are not all that common - there are maybe 2-3 per month tops B. Usually go in Strategy discussion or Blogs (and this may be moved to Strategy discussion) C. Should get special privileges because of their creator's status. No offense, but it's stupid to think that Random Person A's opinion is as important as SaSe's, even after the race bias.
A) didn't quite pan out to well B) like I said, go to blogs C) I'm not doubting the weight, just the amount...
Maybe I'm just getting tired of the negativity everyone places on SC2... I mean shit... Anywhere you go, you come on TL and find "this game really blows" in most of the threads (paraphrased of course) then you decided maybe no TL for awhile so you go play SC2 and login, every channel that has people are compalining about SC2 or balance or some other bullshit so I decide to just launch a match and I get in and it's lke "man Hots looks like shit"... There is this erry depression everywhere you go on TL/SC2... Maybe if we all realized 60.00 game has been immensly worthwhile we could start to enjoy it again.
I thought this would be a better thread... If you did all these changes zerg would never win a game against a top level Protoss. You have to realize that in Korean tournaments the win-rates have not been immensely favoring zerg. They are like 50-50 in this GSL season. Sure almost all of these wins are 2 or 3 base timings but that doesn't change the fact that they are 50-50.
I think the matchup does need to change because being balanced based on one race being strong early and the other being strong in the late game is dumb but if you are going to nerf the way zerg currently wins games then you either need to buff another area of zerg or nerf Protoss in the way that they currently win.
making infestors smaller seems like a good idea. Spore should be able to move, but i think spine should remain static infestors are stupid, i find them imbalance for the skills required to use them. Might be even easier than collosus, the biggest insult any units can get.
I think they should have a CD for infested terran, maybe like 2 seconds and fungal can be changed by only slowing units or it not affecting massive units.
But what would not effecting massive units do for any matchup? Ultras, thors, collsai, and archons? Thors are already so slow they don't move. Excluding air.
I say change fungal growth to just plauge. Damage down to 1 HP, can't kill, and doesn't stop movement.
There are lots of changes that can be done to fungal. The reason I say massive is because even if you get a vortex on say 1/3 of BL, there is no way your archons can get in the vortex with 12-15 infestors just camping around fungalling your army.
I don't find fungal killing things a problem besides maybe a marine drop, 2 fungals kills it but the movement issue is a definite issue that needs to be looked at.
On October 19 2012 12:02 baubo wrote: I'm not good enough to weigh in on balance, but I just want to note that the first several paragraphs of Sase's post is basically exactly what people complain about BW PvZ since forever.
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
Remember that this is all assuming that he wants the mothership removed. And most of that list of zerg nerf is for the infestor only (he did say just one or two of those nerfs would do the job)
I guess my bigger issue is he doesn't take into consideration how vT would change.
As a Zerg, I agree. At the very least in the scouting department. Unlike in SC1, you can't keep your probe alive in the opponent's base forever with good micro. Just doesn't happen. Toss needs a better early scout solution.
Pro gamers complaining about balance publicly is a bad idea, pro players have ways to contact game devs afaik(pro forums etc), publicly whinging just gives people a bad impression of you. Balance is not something in the players control, you should just use the tools you have and do your best.
I agree that zergs can transition out of all ins fairly easily, but placing a timer on the spawning pool is a little ridiculous, dont you think? I also agree that infestors could be toned down a bit so that having 30 isnt a good thing. (for example)
Guess post was too long, guess some of you didn't read everything. I said 1 maybe 2 changes for infestors would be enough. I said remove pheonix and mothership and fix the obviously bugged things. Delay on pylon would make 2-3 base attacks alot weaker and make it more likely to go into macro game. 10 seconds might not seem long but it means alot when doing allins. Some of these changes would be a good start to move the game into the right direction. The reason why so many toss players allins vs zerg is just because the lategame is so horrible. Some changes are needed I am sure even Nerchio would agree on. Should make them changes and take it from there.
Also sorry for not posting in a blog. I think that was my first post on TL ever. Even though I read alot here
And yeah, these are just suggestions. Toss is good at high level, I agree. Toss got a good win record, I agree. Look at time lenght though. The longer the game goes the less likely it is for toss to win. It's way too easy to play toss timings as it is easy to play zerg lategame. The only difference is zerg just need take it to the lategame and they will have great chances to beat good tossplayers. Alot of EU zergs who doesn't even practise much(like they said themselves) beat top KR. . Good zergs will crush all 2-3 base toss can possible do _UNLESS_ it's something never seen before. And guys relax, it's just my opinion. No need to get angry. If you need help to control your anger please go here first http://www.anger-management-techniques.org/ then post in a calm manner ^_^ cheers good night sweet dreams
The key idea is pretty simple. Actually all the pros or the normal players agree with it: 1. make spell castors less powerful, we dont want to play wc3 rpg games in Starcraft. Mothership is a joke. FF is a joke. Fungal is a joke. 2. infestors. How many times have to say this, infestors>everything except infestors. Starcraft 2 now is a game to see who can make most infestors and this is not a joke. 3. cool unit are not fun. Balance around the cool units are the most stupid idea and unfortunately, Blizzard have to this coz there is always a cost for being cool.
On October 19 2012 12:19 eleaf wrote: The key idea is pretty simple. Actually all the pros or the normal players agree with it: 1. make spell castors less powerful, we dont want to play wc3 rpg games in Starcraft. Mothership is a joke. FF is a joke. Fungal is a joke. 2. infestors. How many times have to say this, infestors>everything except infestors. Starcraft 2 now is a game to see who can make most infestors and this is not a joke. 3. cool unit are not fun. Balance around the cool units are the most stupid idea and unfortunately, Blizzard have to this coz there is always a cost for being cool.
Ever look at brood war? Defilers were one of the most powerful units in the game. Science vessels were so good against zerg, and templars/arbiters were insanely strong.
lol, Protoss win rates are higher then zerg in Korea, one of the areas with the most high ranks. And all I see in the things he recommends for balance is "first nerf protoss a bit, then nerf zerg a lot, then buff toss a lot."Shouldn't have expected much else though since he mains toss. Kinda annoying how toss players just casually ignores the win rates and say a race is imba just because they suck against it.
On October 19 2012 12:17 SaSe wrote: Guess post was too long, guess some of you didn't read everything. I said 1 maybe 2 changes for infestors would be enough. I said remove pheonix and mothership and fix the obviously bugged things. Delay on pylon would make 2-3 base attacks alot weaker and make it more likely to go into macro game. 10 seconds might not seem long but it means alot when doing allins. Some of these changes would be a good start to move the game into the right direction. The reason why so many toss players allins vs zerg is just because the lategame is so horrible. Some changes are needed I am sure even Nerchio would agree on. Should make them changes and take it from there.
Also sorry for not posting in a blog. I think that was my first post on TL ever. Even though I read alot here
Listen I apologize for being so blunt but it's just really poor timing. Post this 1 month ago or 1 month into the future and its fine but there are 5 threads up about this sort of thing or something similar and it's just a really poorly timed post.
Your ideas weren't batshit crazy, infestor size is a big issue imo causing EMP especially to be shitty (although it makes feedbacking easier so I don't see the help PvT) . The 10 second delay is an issue because of the opposite effect, if you're being rushed and you have to wait 10 seconds you're fucked so that was poorly planned out, a better solution would be to perhaps implement that and then increase the buildtime at a normal gateway by 10 seconds such that you can have multiple gateway/warpgates working, some for defense and others for offense to offset. The biggest flaw imo is the fact protoss can't use gateways to que, I don't see why they can't warp in quicker after say the cyber core gives it an upgrade (likek WG). If you make it quicker the only thing affected is 2gate rush but if you wait for core + WG upgradfe that's a non issue and only adds dynamic with PRotoss having to handle transitioning from wg to gw
Anywho like I said, this was just bad timing on your part, the post wasn't awful by any means although maybe not perfect it just hit when everyone is so depressed on this forum and bitching about everything left and right.
On October 19 2012 12:14 goswser wrote: You're about as objective as Avilo.
You're absolutely the right person to comment on that, now are you? I like what your ideas are, also people should realize you're not suggesting to pull through ALL the changes, rather pick a few and see what happens. Thank you for this, lets hope it gets through to blizzard.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
Life disagrees. And he makes top tier terrans look extremely silly with his disagreement.
Life doesn't disagree. He thinks that Protoss is really overpowered...
On October 19 2012 12:24 Gamegene wrote: consider yourself lucky you never played BW.
you would have killed yourself following the very specific building rules concerning walls, or forcing yourself to scout with a corsair every game.
lol.. and to think the AI is smarter in sc2 and yet he has trouble when the old guards overcame it. I say suck it up and improve yourself instead of whining. Everyone plays with disadvantages in this game, zerg early and mid game, terran's late game, toss early game late game.
On October 19 2012 11:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it"
On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous.
Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous.
Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
And cloud kingdom. Never forget cloud kingdom.. I swear that choke at the natural is just saying DO IT
He brings up some good points about some problems in PvZ, particularly about how early pools in PvZ can be incredibly powerful vs FFE and generally end up with Z not even being behind after. I feel like this is a problem as well, I'm not really sure how you'd address this however without fucking with other mu's too much. :/
Faster toss scouting as he brought up - really does need to be implemented. This is a problem in all mu's for protoss in my opinion, not just PvZ. I think Blizzards idea for HOTS to give sentrys hallucination without an upgrade could potentially remedy this problem to a degree. Hopefully this works out and allows us a faster scout without compromising safety too much.. Not sure if Sase has kept up with HOTS patch notes completely, but if you read this - maybe there is hope for earlyish game scout?
Good comments about infestor burrowing needing fixing. I feel like small changes like this could help tweak PvZ in the direction it needs to go.
Hopefully blizzard does read this and considers a few of your opinions for future changes..
On October 19 2012 12:19 eleaf wrote: The key idea is pretty simple. Actually all the pros or the normal players agree with it: 1. make spell castors less powerful, we dont want to play wc3 rpg games in Starcraft. Mothership is a joke. FF is a joke. Fungal is a joke. 2. infestors. How many times have to say this, infestors>everything except infestors. Starcraft 2 now is a game to see who can make most infestors and this is not a joke. 3. cool unit are not fun. Balance around the cool units are the most stupid idea and unfortunately, Blizzard have to this coz there is always a cost for being cool.
Ever look at brood war? Defilers were one of the most powerful units in the game. Science vessels were so good against zerg, and templars/arbiters were insanely strong.
Except Defilers and SV are tier-3 late game units and you never want to make half of your units in this kind of supportive unit. How ironically Blizzard always saying we dont want ppl to overmake one kind of unit and we see broodlord+infestors every game no matter tvz pvz or zvz.
Honestly anyone who is good at this game and understands it is going to agree with almost everything SaSe has stated, as it turns out most of the community is complete garbage and understands nothing about this game except how to cheese and all in so I expect a lot of negative feedback. It's pretty sickening to see certain Zergs who train much less than others simply destroy other Protoss who train almost all day (I wont mention names) because they are more "skilled".
Protoss are winning against Zerg right now at a decent rate because of our two clutch all ins we rely on so heavily in the match up, Sentry Immortal and 3 Base Colossus 12 Gate. I dare you to try and find a good macro game where a Protoss outplays and wins against Zerg in late game versus all the things SaSe has stated is to powerful (One where the Zerg doesn't donate the win). People seem to think Protoss do these all ins and timings because they are easy wins, this far from the truth, Protoss players do these types of builds because they feel like its one of the few ways they can logistically play better against a Zerg and win because of it as opposed to the late game where the match hinges on the Zerg messing up.
On October 19 2012 12:19 eleaf wrote: The key idea is pretty simple. Actually all the pros or the normal players agree with it: 1. make spell castors less powerful, we dont want to play wc3 rpg games in Starcraft. Mothership is a joke. FF is a joke. Fungal is a joke. 2. infestors. How many times have to say this, infestors>everything except infestors. Starcraft 2 now is a game to see who can make most infestors and this is not a joke. 3. cool unit are not fun. Balance around the cool units are the most stupid idea and unfortunately, Blizzard have to this coz there is always a cost for being cool.
Ever look at brood war? Defilers were one of the most powerful units in the game. Science vessels were so good against zerg, and templars/arbiters were insanely strong.
Except Defilers and SV are tier-3 late game units and you never want to make half of your units in this kind of supportive unit. How ironically Blizzard always saying we dont want ppl to overmake one kind of unit and we see broodlord+infestors every game no matter tvz pvz or zvz.
same can be said for toss and terran. Marines and Stalkers, no matter what match up. Btw broodlord and infestors is not one unit, you know that right?
I watched a game on your steam, where it was a p v z. You were maxed on a heavy stalker composition. Your opponent was very heavy on mutas, if not a pure muta composition. You ended up losing the game, despite the zerg having 0 spines, banelings or anything that wasn't muta... I think you made a comment like "It's fun to play when mutas are the counter to stalkers." That's what it looked like... Personally, due to style, I never cared much about the infestor. I hear it's good... so I give people the benefit of the doubt. I'm curious to your thoughts on p vs mutas and if anything should be changed. Perhaps it's merely a style thing and you should be opening phoenix. I have no idea but I find it pretty unfair, whether it is or not.
On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous.
Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
"As long as the maps are done well,I don't think Protoss is OP. I actually think Zerg is more OP" - DRG
Although I think this should have gone on the HOTS forum, I think it's good for the community to know pro-gamers' thoughts and opinions on balance. Of course, the game developers should know about this too but having a pro-active community (not a hyper-active one though) is good for the game and a sign that people actually care for the game.
Anyway, I think that although people agreed that BW was balanced, I recall people still complained about certain aspects of the game. Either way, I think players should give HOTS a chance but still, suggestions on balance like these are important during the beta phases of the game so that on release, we get a great game from the get-go.
Where are these pro forums by the way? I want to read their thoughts on balance. Still, I kind of support Blizzard in their idea that there should be imbalances at different points of a set meaning that Toss should be strong against Z mid-game while Z should be rewarded for surviving until late-game. My main complaint is that Blizzard should find a way to include units that will require more multi-tasking at ALL POINTS of the game as well as provide different tech paths. What I really hate is that during late-game, everyone knows what kind of unit composition to expect.
Still, I think innovation is not dead in this game. I thought Hyun's game 3 against Vampire was an ingenious use of mutas in order to get himself to late-game. It was just too bad he stayed on mutas too long negating the econ advantage he built up which he could've used to transition straight to late-game compositions. Who knows, maybe someone would be clever enough to come up with a unit composition or strategy that could change PvZ late-game.
Again, I'm not a pro so I'm not saying I'm right, these are just my thoughts and ideas and I hope they help with this discussion.
On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous.
Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
"I don't think Protoss is OP. I actually think Zerg is more OP" - DRG
He said, I think zerg is doing better then toss right now, not op. Where did you get that translation? Google translate?
On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous.
Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
"As long as the maps are done wellI don't think Protoss is OP. I actually think Zerg is more OP" - DRG
He said, I think zerg is doing better then toss right now, not op. Where did you get that translation? Google translate?
SeeKeR's interview, IDK if he uses Google translate or not, you should ask him.
With no offense intended to Sase, who is a great player, some of his ideas are really bad, especially those that pertain to HotS. I'd hope that no one would put stock in the opinions of someone who has never played a game.
I agree with his general opinion of the PvZ matchup. Zerg has the initiative and scouting advantage at all points in this matchup, and Protoss can not rely on probe scouting after the first queen is out. It's absolutely imperative that Protoss reacts properly if Zerg chooses to build units early on and sometimes this just isn't possible if scouting is denied properly.
On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous.
Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
"I don't think Protoss is OP. I actually think Zerg is more OP" - DRG
source? Anyway results speak for themselves and right now Protoss has the upper edge over Zerg (in Korea)
my suggestion is to fix the sentry somehow and then hopefully the Infestor. Or just remove both units and see which was more important ^^
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Remove FF and fungal as they both are now.
Rebalance stuff.
Remove mothership is ok I like the idea of the mothership core though so far. Its hard to say. But I think with the mothership gone a more arbiter-esque oracle is cool.
Not sure, but I do agree that lategame Zerg is kind of crazy. Between infested terrans, corrupters, fungal and broodlords its very hard to kill Zerg lategame. Air units don't do that great vs Zerg and it sucks.
On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous.
Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
"I don't think Protoss is OP. I actually think Zerg is more OP" - DRG
He said, I think zerg is doing better then toss right now, not op. Where did you get that translation? Google translate?
SeeKeR's interview, IDK if he uses Google translate or not, you should ask him.
may I have a link to the interview please? I would like to personally verify the contents
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
Pretty much. Sase needs to focus his feedback into something more concrete rather than NERF EVERYTHING. Implementing all those changes would make things far worse than it currently is.
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
Pretty much. Sase needs to focus his feedback into something more concrete rather than NERF EVERYTHING. Implementing all those changes would make things far worse than it currently is.
I for one and up for all this nerfs just so toss players can see for themselves how absurd they want the game to be without a zerg winning even once and then feeling good about it when they win to call it balance.
On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous.
Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
"But as long as the maps are done well, I don't think Protoss is OP. I actually think Zerg is more OP" - DRG
He said, I think zerg is doing better then toss right now, not op. Where did you get that translation? Google translate?
SeeKeR's interview, IDK if he uses Google translate or not, you should ask him.
may I have a link to the interview please? I would like to personally verify the contents
On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous.
Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
"But as long as the maps are done well I don't think Protoss is OP. I actually think Zerg is more OP" - DRG
source? Anyway results speak for themselves and right now Protoss has the upper edge over Zerg (in Korea)
my suggestion is to fix the sentry somehow and then hopefully the Infestor. Or just remove both units and see which was more important ^^
I read until the part where SaSe concluded that terran could lift buildings, zerg could see everything, and toss has nothing. Then i laughed out loud, facepalmed, and resumed the usually thinking of "How is this guy allowed to post on any forum."
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Remove FF and fungal as they both are now.
Rebalance stuff.
Remove mothership is ok I like the idea of the mothership core though so far. Its hard to say. But I think with the mothership gone a more arbiter-esque oracle is cool.
Not sure, but I do agree that lategame Zerg is kind of crazy. Between infested terrans, corrupters, fungal and broodlords its very hard to kill Zerg lategame. Air units don't do that great vs Zerg and it sucks.
grats you just made Terran the best race in the game
On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous.
Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
"But as long as the maps are done well, I don't think Protoss is OP. I actually think Zerg is more OP" - DRG
He said, I think zerg is doing better then toss right now, not op. Where did you get that translation? Google translate?
SeeKeR's interview, IDK if he uses Google translate or not, you should ask him.
may I have a link to the interview please? I would like to personally verify the contents
중간에 앓는 소리를 하기는 했었다(웃음). 하지만 맵만 정상적이라면 사기라고 생각은 하지 않았다. 오히려 저그가 더 사기라는 생각을 했었다. That doesn't mean zerg is more op. More like if the map is well done, zerg's have an advantage over toss. Though its debatable.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
I personally feel that Zerg players have been using Infestors as a crutch for far too long and there is a lot of stagnated play because they are so good. Of course Infestors should still be an option, but in their current state there are ZERO drawbacks to having them as they fill all roles. DPS, harrass, support, AA, base race/trade......they outshine in ever category.
Sentries are a different beast that are a bit more complex for me. Protoss actually needs Sentries for the early-mid game or they just flat out die to something silly. But, in their current state they are WAY too powerful in Gateway pushes.
On October 19 2012 12:40 sitromit wrote: Protoss pro notorious for his bad PvZ makes an opinion post demanding massive nerfs... What's next, a thread from JYP about how to nerf Terran?
lol, recently its been all toss complaining though. I wonder what happened in aiur.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
I personally feel that Zerg players have been using Infestors as a crutch for far too long and there is a lot of stagnated play because they are so good. Of course Infestors should still be an option, but in their current state there are ZERO drawbacks to having them as they fill all roles. DPS, harrass, support, AA, base race/trade......they outshine in ever category.
Sentries are a different beast that are a bit more complex for me. Protoss actually needs Sentries for the early-mid game or they just flat out die to something silly. But, in their current state they are WAY too powerful in Gateway pushes.
everything and infester can do Templars can also do with the benefot of making archons taht can kill 20 broodlords at once in the right situation
On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous.
Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
"But as long as the maps are done well I don't think Protoss is OP. I actually think Zerg is more OP" - DRG
source? Anyway results speak for themselves and right now Protoss has the upper edge over Zerg (in Korea)
my suggestion is to fix the sentry somehow and then hopefully the Infestor. Or just remove both units and see which was more important ^^
On October 19 2012 12:38 Supercilium wrote: SaSe is giving suggestions to which changes can be made to improve the game/balance, he even say himself that implementing all his changes is bad.
Just a comment: Even Stephano says PvZ is imbalanced and is favoring Zerg. Maybe you'll say "yeah but he is Stephano", whether this is an accurate point or a way to be a "baller" (I don't like that word but it describes exactly what I want to say). However exactly because he has revolutionized the match up and because he still is someone Protoss players don't really feel comftable against, we can listen to what he says. Why? Because he understands the mu way deeper than anyone who is posting here and still, he says zerg is favored clearly.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
I personally feel that Zerg players have been using Infestors as a crutch for far too long and there is a lot of stagnated play because they are so good. Of course Infestors should still be an option, but in their current state there are ZERO drawbacks to having them as they fill all roles. DPS, harrass, support, AA, base race/trade......they outshine in ever category.
Sentries are a different beast that are a bit more complex for me. Protoss actually needs Sentries for the early-mid game or they just flat out die to something silly. But, in their current state they are WAY too powerful in Gateway pushes.
everything and infester can do Templars can also do with the benefot of making archons taht can kill 20 broodlords at once in the right situation
On October 19 2012 12:44 ionlyknowmymind wrote: Just a comment: Even Stephano says PvZ is imbalanced and is favoring Zerg. Maybe you'll say "yeah but he is Stephano", whether this is an accurate point or a way to be a "baller" (I don't like that word but it describes exactly what I want to say). However exactly because he has revolutionized the match up and because he still is someone Protoss players don't really feel comftable against, we can listen to what he says. Why? Because he understands the mu way deeper than anyone who is posting here and still, he says zerg is favored clearly.
I love it how people just whipped out the stephano card when balance is concern against toss. He said it during the peak of his 3 base roach build when toss were figuring him out, with his losses recently to toss players, I would say it wouldn't be valid anymore. And advantage doesn't mean OP, just look at the 1/1/1.
On October 19 2012 12:44 ionlyknowmymind wrote: Just a comment: Even Stephano says PvZ is imbalanced and is favoring Zerg. Maybe you'll say "yeah but he is Stephano", whether this is an accurate point or a way to be a "baller" (I don't like that word but it describes exactly what I want to say). However exactly because he has revolutionized the match up and because he still is someone Protoss players don't really feel comftable against, we can listen to what he says. Why? Because he understands the mu way deeper than anyone who is posting here and still, he says zerg is favored clearly.
Stephano has also said (same with like anyone who has lived with him) taht stephano is not a intellectual player but a very instinctual player, who doesnt think about waht to do as much as just knows what to do so take waht he saids with a grain of salt
it would be different if it was someone like Artosis who spends practically all his free time looking at the game
Bolded is the key phrase.
its 20 times more difficult to avoid the toilet then it is to set it up and if you get toileted once you straight lose there
Anyway, I doubt this change would go through, zerg is going to lose in the OSL finals. Just look at that fucking map pool, what the fuck were they thinking putting entombed and ohana in there twice.
A lot of things about protoss and it's matchups have been bothering me for a very long time. I think the biggest mistake top protoss players have made is waiting until now to speak up. Zerg players of all levels flooded in with complaints until they got a ton of buffs, meanwhile protoss got its core macro mechanic (warp) and its core units nerfed repeatedly.
The current meta game of zerg getting 3 free bases vs a 2 base protoss wasn't something Zerg players developed or worked out over time, it got patched into existence. The last warp and blink nerfs to protoss stopped protoss from being able to punish greedy 3rds without being all in. Protoss's options are to 2 base allin or play from behind trying to take a 3rd way after zerg and with fewer workers. Why did protoss get it's rushes nerfed so hard while zerg rushes did not get nerfed? Squeaky wheels get oil. Re-read the first lines of this post. Also, when zergs take fast 3rds they can attack protoss with the same strength of a protoss 2 base allin, except the zerg isn't all in. He can back off and macro and not be screwed.
The biggest issues with toss are:
1. Reliance on FF's to not die, which also means aggression using them is all in.
2. No way to get the map presence and vision that zerg or terran gets (creep, unit mobility, fungal, concussive, sensor towers, overlords/overseers, scans, burrow) the fact that protoss only has obs for map vision, and FF for controlling mobility is a big problem.
3. How late the mobility upgrades charge and blink are. Stim, concussive, medevacs, ling speed, roach speed, fungal, the other races can have all of these things by the time blink or charge is out. (yes, I know chargelots are very good vs terran, I'm not claiming it isn't!) I'm saying there is a huge period of time when they have these mobility advantages and protoss's only answer is FF, which stops them from being out on the map without an all in. Because if your army is not able to kill theirs, you can't retreat, and lose the game.
4. Taking a 3rd, terrans have PF's, flying buildings (which lets terran build 3rds inside the safety of the main) zerg has creep, and both have faster armies than toss in the early/mid game. Protoss should have the same viable opportunity to play for a fast 3rd. This poorly thought out area of protoss design is a big reason there is such small tolerances for what maps are viable or considered balanced. This issue of taking 3rds is closely related to the other 3 points I've made above.
How to fix it for HOTS?
1st of all make FF's have health, this alone opens a lot of doors for other protoss units to shine, map design, and micro. As stated in the OP give pylons some way to "phase out" so units can walk through, and you can use them as doors (like a supply depot), put shield batteries or something similar into the game to help protoss who want to go for a macro game and a fast 3rd. Make zealot speed more accessible by lowering the cost, and just get rid of charge (It's really, really bad for starcraft imo!). Then protoss can have a faster army earlier in the game without the over-poweredness of charge or FF. Fungal should not stop blinks or affect air, both are ridiculous, zergs can deal with either without fungal, ( a protoss that goes for air or blink early won't have colossus or storm early. Roach/Hydra can roll a toss who goes for these things before committing to robo! A zerg late game army of BL infestor, corruptor, roach will still rape a late game protoss army even if fungal doesn't affect these things) but as it is now zergs don't even have to bother keeping tabs and scouting well after the early game (at which time they know exactly what protoss has and protoss is blind, as discussed in the OP). Fungal deals with everything so why keep scouting? Protoss has to keep scouting and reacting to Zergs tech all game, it should work both ways!
What I think they should do with the oracle is give a "mass blink" ability. Like a mix between recall and blink. It can blink itself and everything under it. This gives protoss some mid game options that it desperately needs without the band-aid that is the mothership core. A mass blink ability would be really really cool, and fun, and interesting.
Another thing I'd like to see is nexus providing psi and having a really large vision radius. This would also help deal with protoss's issues vs harass and defense after taking a 3rd.
Really it's not any one problem that plagues Protoss. It's the synergy of all of it's issues that makes it such a problematic race. I'm not talking just about it's overall strength (which is lacking late game vs zerg and too good late game vs terran) I'm talking about gameplay.
Look at the matchups...... PvP= 1 base play decides the game, PvZ= 2 base all in, or lose to BL infestor unless zerg makes some major mistakes, PvT= turtle untill late game when you smash terrans tier 1 army with storm charge and colossus. Do any of these sound fun to you? (yes smashing terran late game is kind of fun, but the mid game and taking a 3rd is equally as frustrating, that is why so many maps have the free 3rd now, otherwise protoss can't get to that late game and Terran is in command from the time med evacs come out, and there is no swing back into the protoss's favor) It may be balanced with overall win rate, but it's a really shitty way to achieve balance. Real balance is when the game is 50/50 at every phase (or at least closer to 50/50 than what it is now!)
Edit: and about the Archon toilet. It is 100% under Zergs control whether or not it is possible. If an archon toilet succeeds, it is only because zerg did not micro properly. I've seen plenty of zergs spread well and keep their broodlords over terrain that the archons cannot reach, making a toilet impossible. It's a crap shoot for protoss, while zerg has control over the situation.
Edit 2: I forgot to cover the "endless free units" from zerg, I agree that they shouldn't get the upgrades. and as for spine crawlers, they should make a mothership seem fast! So you at least have a chance to catch them out of position or delay a zerg spine push because they have to leap frog (like tanks!)
On October 19 2012 12:29 Braric wrote: Honestly anyone who is good at this game and understands it is going to agree with almost everything SaSe has stated, as it turns out most of the community is complete garbage and understands nothing about this game except how to cheese and all in so I expect a lot of negative feedback. It's pretty sickening to see certain Zergs who train much less than others simply destroy other Protoss who train almost all day (I wont mention names) because they are more "skilled".
Protoss are winning against Zerg right now at a decent rate because of our two clutch all ins we rely on so heavily in the match up, Sentry Immortal and 3 Base Colossus 12 Gate. I dare you to try and find a good macro game where a Protoss outplays and wins against Zerg in late game versus all the things SaSe has stated is to powerful (One where the Zerg doesn't donate the win). People seem to think Protoss do these all ins and timings because they are easy wins, this far from the truth, Protoss players do these types of builds because they feel like its one of the few ways they can logistically play better against a Zerg and win because of it as opposed to the late game where the match hinges on the Zerg messing up.
Only game I can really think of was HerO vs Ret on Daybreak at DHS. Was a good macro game then it turned into mass halluc play to stall for mass air units for HerO.
On October 19 2012 12:48 Reborn8u wrote: A lot of things about protoss and it's matchups have been bothering me for a very long time. I think the biggest mistake top protoss players have made is waiting until now to speak up. Zerg players of all levels flooded in with complaints until they got a ton of buffs, meanwhile protoss got its core macro mechanic (warp) and its core units nerfed repeatedly.
The current meta game of zerg getting 3 free bases vs a 2 base protoss wasn't something Zerg players developed or worked out over time, it got patched into existence. The last warp and blink nerfs to protoss stopped protoss from being able to punish greedy 3rds without being all in. Protoss's options are to 2 base allin or play from behind trying to take a 3rd way after zerg and with fewer workers. Why did protoss get it's rushes nerfed so hard while zerg rushes did not get nerfed? Squeaky wheels get oil. Re-read the first lines of this post. Also, when zergs take fast 3rds they can attack protoss with the same strength of a protoss 2 base allin, except the zerg isn't all in. He can back off and macro and not be screwed.
The biggest issues with toss are:
1. Reliance on FF's to not die, which also means aggression using them is all in.
2. No way to get the map presence and vision that zerg or terran gets (creep, unit mobility, fungal, concussive, sensor towers, overlords/overseers, scans, burrow) the fact that protoss only has obs for map vision, and FF for controlling mobility is a big problem.
3. How late the mobility upgrades charge and blink are. Stim, concussive, medevacs, ling speed, roach speed, fungal, the other races can have all of these things by the time blink or charge is out. (yes, I know chargelots are very good vs terran, I'm not claiming it isn't!) I'm saying there is a huge period of time when they have these mobility advantages and protoss's only answer is FF, which stops them from being out on the map without an all in. Because if your army is not able to kill theirs, you can't retreat, and lose the game.
4. Taking a 3rd, terrans have PF's, flying buildings (which lets terran build 3rds inside the safety of the main) zerg has creep, and both have faster armies than toss in the early/mid game. Protoss should have the same viable opportunity to play for a fast 3rd. This poorly thought out area of protoss design is a big reason there is such small tolerances for what maps are viable or considered balanced. This issue of taking 3rds is closely related to the other 3 points I've made above.
How to fix it for HOTS?
1st of all make FF's have health, this alone opens a lot of doors for other protoss units to shine, map design, and micro. As stated in the OP give pylons some way to "phase out" so units can walk through, and you can use them as doors (like a supply depot), put shield batteries or something similar into the game to help protoss who want to go for a macro game and a fast 3rd. Make zealot speed more accessible by lowering the cost, and just get rid of charge (It's really, really bad for starcraft imo!). Then protoss can have a faster army earlier in the game without the over-poweredness of charge or FF. Fungal should not stop blinks or affect air, both are ridiculous, zergs can deal with either without fungal, ( a protoss that goes for air or blink early won't have colossus or storm early. Roach/Hydra can roll a toss who goes for these things before committing to robo! A zerg late game army of BL infestor, corruptor, roach will still rape a late game protoss army even if fungal doesn't affect these things) but as it is now zergs don't even have to bother keeping tabs and scouting well after the early game (at which time they know exactly what protoss has and protoss is blind, as discussed in the OP). Fungal deals with everything so why keep scouting? Protoss has to keep scouting and reacting to Zergs tech all game, it should work both ways!
What I think they should do with the oracle is give a "mass blink" ability. Like a mix between recall and blink. It can blink itself and everything under it. This gives protoss some mid game options that it desperately needs without the band-aid that is the mothership core. A mass blink ability would be really really cool, and fun, and interesting.
Another thing I'd like to see is nexus providing psi and having a really large vision radius. This would also help deal with protoss's issues vs harass and defense after taking a 3rd.
Really it's not any one problem that plagues Protoss. It's the synergy of all of it's issues that makes it such a problematic race. I'm not talking just about it's overall strength (which is lacking late game vs zerg and too good late game vs terran) I'm talking about gameplay.
Look at the matchups...... PvP= 1 base play decides the game, PvZ= 2 base all in, or lose to BL infestor unless zerg makes some major mistakes, PvT= turtle untill late game when you smash terrans tier 1 army with storm charge and colossus. Do any of these sound fun to you? (yes smashing terran late game is kind of fun, but the mid game and taking a 3rd is equally as frustrating, that is why so many maps have the free 3rd now, otherwise protoss can't get to that late game and Terran is in command from the time med evacs come out, and there is no swing back into the protoss's favor) It may be balanced with overall win rate, but it's a really shitty way to achieve balance. Real balance is when the game is 50/50 at every phase (or at least closer to 50/50 than what it is now!)
Excuse me, stephano single handledy brought the 3 base roach build into popularity. What do you mean by no zerg developed it but it was patch in. And yes, we should have 50/50 balance in all match up , so we should nerf toss since toss win rates are higher then zerg right now
Edit; and the warp in and blink nerf was to help out pvp with toss players. That says a lot when a race has to be nerf against itself just so their players will play a macro game. There was even a developers blog on sc2 forum which says they did it so toss will learn to macro against each other and not all in all the time.
On October 19 2012 11:55 saladToss wrote: The fact that infestors counter everything definitely sucks.
I think the idea of making infested terrans unable to hit air is actually pretty good. Zerg would still have an answer to protoss air in the form of fungal+corruptors, but it wouldn't be so overwhelming as to make vrs literally obsolete against units they should counter (broodlords).
On October 19 2012 12:48 Reborn8u wrote: A lot of things about protoss and it's matchups have been bothering me for a very long time. I think the biggest mistake top protoss players have made is waiting until now to speak up. Zerg players of all levels flooded in with complaints until they got a ton of buffs, meanwhile protoss got its core macro mechanic (warp) and its core units nerfed repeatedly.
The current meta game of zerg getting 3 free bases vs a 2 base protoss wasn't something Zerg players developed or worked out over time, it got patched into existence. The last warp and blink nerfs to protoss stopped protoss from being able to punish greedy 3rds without being all in. Protoss's options are to 2 base allin or play from behind trying to take a 3rd way after zerg and with fewer workers. Why did protoss get it's rushes nerfed so hard while zerg rushes did not get nerfed? Squeaky wheels get oil. Re-read the first lines of this post. Also, when zergs take fast 3rds they can attack protoss with the same strength of a protoss 2 base allin, except the zerg isn't all in. He can back off and macro and not be screwed.
The biggest issues with toss are:
1. Reliance on FF's to not die, which also means aggression using them is all in.
2. No way to get the map presence and vision that zerg or terran gets (creep, unit mobility, fungal, concussive, sensor towers, overlords/overseers, scans, burrow) the fact that protoss only has obs for map vision, and FF for controlling mobility is a big problem.
3. How late the mobility upgrades charge and blink are. Stim, concussive, medevacs, ling speed, roach speed, fungal, the other races can have all of these things by the time blink or charge is out. (yes, I know chargelots are very good vs terran, I'm not claiming it isn't!) I'm saying there is a huge period of time when they have these mobility advantages and protoss's only answer is FF, which stops them from being out on the map without an all in. Because if your army is not able to kill theirs, you can't retreat, and lose the game.
4. Taking a 3rd, terrans have PF's, flying buildings (which lets terran build 3rds inside the safety of the main) zerg has creep, and both have faster armies than toss in the early/mid game. Protoss should have the same viable opportunity to play for a fast 3rd. This poorly thought out area of protoss design is a big reason there is such small tolerances for what maps are viable or considered balanced. This issue of taking 3rds is closely related to the other 3 points I've made above.
How to fix it for HOTS?
1st of all make FF's have health, this alone opens a lot of doors for other protoss units to shine, map design, and micro. As stated in the OP give pylons some way to "phase out" so units can walk through, and you can use them as doors (like a supply depot), put shield batteries or something similar into the game to help protoss who want to go for a macro game and a fast 3rd. Make zealot speed more accessible by lowering the cost, and just get rid of charge (It's really, really bad for starcraft imo!). Then protoss can have a faster army earlier in the game without the over-poweredness of charge or FF. Fungal should not stop blinks or affect air, both are ridiculous, zergs can deal with either without fungal, ( a protoss that goes for air or blink early won't have colossus or storm early. Roach/Hydra can roll a toss who goes for these things before committing to robo! A zerg late game army of BL infestor, corruptor, roach will still rape a late game protoss army even if fungal doesn't affect these things) but as it is now zergs don't even have to bother keeping tabs and scouting well after the early game (at which time they know exactly what protoss has and protoss is blind, as discussed in the OP). Fungal deals with everything so why keep scouting? Protoss has to keep scouting and reacting to Zergs tech all game, it should work both ways!
What I think they should do with the oracle is give a "mass blink" ability. Like a mix between recall and blink. It can blink itself and everything under it. This gives protoss some mid game options that it desperately needs without the band-aid that is the mothership core. A mass blink ability would be really really cool, and fun, and interesting.
Another thing I'd like to see is nexus providing psi and having a really large vision radius. This would also help deal with protoss's issues vs harass and defense after taking a 3rd.
Really it's not any one problem that plagues Protoss. It's the synergy of all of it's issues that makes it such a problematic race. I'm not talking just about it's overall strength (which is lacking late game vs zerg and too good late game vs terran) I'm talking about gameplay.
Look at the matchups...... PvP= 1 base play decides the game, PvZ= 2 base all in, or lose to BL infestor unless zerg makes some major mistakes, PvT= turtle untill late game when you smash terrans tier 1 army with storm charge and colossus. Do any of these sound fun to you? (yes smashing terran late game is kind of fun, but the mid game and taking a 3rd is equally as frustrating, that is why so many maps have the free 3rd now, otherwise protoss can't get to that late game and Terran is in command from the time med evacs come out, and there is no swing back into the protoss's favor) It may be balanced with overall win rate, but it's a really shitty way to achieve balance. Real balance is when the game is 50/50 at every phase (or at least closer to 50/50 than what it is now!)
Excuse me, stephano single handledy brought the 3 base roach build into popularity. What do you mean by no zerg developed it but it was patch in. And yes, we should have 50/50 balance in all match up , so we should nerf toss since toss win rates are higher then zerg right now
Edit; and the warp in and blink nerf was to help out pvp with toss players. That says a lot when a race has to be nerf against itself just so their players will play a macro game. There was even a developers blog on sc2 forum which says they did it so toss will learn to macro against each other and not all in all the time.
Nestea and Losira brought the 3 base roach build into popularity, but Stephano did a lot to optimize it.
On October 19 2012 12:48 Reborn8u wrote: A lot of things about protoss and it's matchups have been bothering me for a very long time. I think the biggest mistake top protoss players have made is waiting until now to speak up. Zerg players of all levels flooded in with complaints until they got a ton of buffs, meanwhile protoss got its core macro mechanic (warp) and its core units nerfed repeatedly.
The current meta game of zerg getting 3 free bases vs a 2 base protoss wasn't something Zerg players developed or worked out over time, it got patched into existence. The last warp and blink nerfs to protoss stopped protoss from being able to punish greedy 3rds without being all in. Protoss's options are to 2 base allin or play from behind trying to take a 3rd way after zerg and with fewer workers. Why did protoss get it's rushes nerfed so hard while zerg rushes did not get nerfed? Squeaky wheels get oil. Re-read the first lines of this post. Also, when zergs take fast 3rds they can attack protoss with the same strength of a protoss 2 base allin, except the zerg isn't all in. He can back off and macro and not be screwed.
The biggest issues with toss are:
1. Reliance on FF's to not die, which also means aggression using them is all in.
2. No way to get the map presence and vision that zerg or terran gets (creep, unit mobility, fungal, concussive, sensor towers, overlords/overseers, scans, burrow) the fact that protoss only has obs for map vision, and FF for controlling mobility is a big problem.
3. How late the mobility upgrades charge and blink are. Stim, concussive, medevacs, ling speed, roach speed, fungal, the other races can have all of these things by the time blink or charge is out. (yes, I know chargelots are very good vs terran, I'm not claiming it isn't!) I'm saying there is a huge period of time when they have these mobility advantages and protoss's only answer is FF, which stops them from being out on the map without an all in. Because if your army is not able to kill theirs, you can't retreat, and lose the game.
4. Taking a 3rd, terrans have PF's, flying buildings (which lets terran build 3rds inside the safety of the main) zerg has creep, and both have faster armies than toss in the early/mid game. Protoss should have the same viable opportunity to play for a fast 3rd. This poorly thought out area of protoss design is a big reason there is such small tolerances for what maps are viable or considered balanced. This issue of taking 3rds is closely related to the other 3 points I've made above.
How to fix it for HOTS?
1st of all make FF's have health, this alone opens a lot of doors for other protoss units to shine, map design, and micro. As stated in the OP give pylons some way to "phase out" so units can walk through, and you can use them as doors (like a supply depot), put shield batteries or something similar into the game to help protoss who want to go for a macro game and a fast 3rd. Make zealot speed more accessible by lowering the cost, and just get rid of charge (It's really, really bad for starcraft imo!). Then protoss can have a faster army earlier in the game without the over-poweredness of charge or FF. Fungal should not stop blinks or affect air, both are ridiculous, zergs can deal with either without fungal, ( a protoss that goes for air or blink early won't have colossus or storm early. Roach/Hydra can roll a toss who goes for these things before committing to robo! A zerg late game army of BL infestor, corruptor, roach will still rape a late game protoss army even if fungal doesn't affect these things) but as it is now zergs don't even have to bother keeping tabs and scouting well after the early game (at which time they know exactly what protoss has and protoss is blind, as discussed in the OP). Fungal deals with everything so why keep scouting? Protoss has to keep scouting and reacting to Zergs tech all game, it should work both ways!
What I think they should do with the oracle is give a "mass blink" ability. Like a mix between recall and blink. It can blink itself and everything under it. This gives protoss some mid game options that it desperately needs without the band-aid that is the mothership core. A mass blink ability would be really really cool, and fun, and interesting.
Another thing I'd like to see is nexus providing psi and having a really large vision radius. This would also help deal with protoss's issues vs harass and defense after taking a 3rd.
Really it's not any one problem that plagues Protoss. It's the synergy of all of it's issues that makes it such a problematic race. I'm not talking just about it's overall strength (which is lacking late game vs zerg and too good late game vs terran) I'm talking about gameplay.
Look at the matchups...... PvP= 1 base play decides the game, PvZ= 2 base all in, or lose to BL infestor unless zerg makes some major mistakes, PvT= turtle untill late game when you smash terrans tier 1 army with storm charge and colossus. Do any of these sound fun to you? (yes smashing terran late game is kind of fun, but the mid game and taking a 3rd is equally as frustrating, that is why so many maps have the free 3rd now, otherwise protoss can't get to that late game and Terran is in command from the time med evacs come out, and there is no swing back into the protoss's favor) It may be balanced with overall win rate, but it's a really shitty way to achieve balance. Real balance is when the game is 50/50 at every phase (or at least closer to 50/50 than what it is now!)
Excuse me, stephano single handledy brought the 3 base roach build into popularity. What do you mean by no zerg developed it but it was patch in. And yes, we should have 50/50 balance in all match up , so we should nerf toss since toss win rates are higher then zerg right now
Edit; and the warp in and blink nerf was to help out pvp with toss players. That says a lot when a race has to be nerf against itself just so their players will play a macro game. There was even a developers blog on sc2 forum which says they did it so toss will learn to macro against each other and not all in all the time.
Nestea and Losira brought the 3 base roach build into popularity, but Stephano did a lot to optimize it.
Yes nestea and losira's build were the first ,but in a way, stephano did popularize it by showing it can work.
On October 19 2012 11:55 saladToss wrote: The fact that infestors counter everything definitely sucks.
I think the idea of making infested terrans unable to hit air is actually pretty good. Zerg would still have an answer to protoss air in the form of fungal+corruptors, but it wouldn't be so overwhelming as to make vrs literally obsolete against units they should counter (broodlords).
but if VRs arent obsolete then the toss jsut masses them and wins
you might say "well make hydras" but by the time you have enough hydras to actually fight the VR ball and kill it then he has the perfect anti-hydra army and jsut bowls you over
if infesters couldnt kill VRs then Zerg just loses 100% of macro games because then we have no way to stop mass Air without relying on the hydra that is such a joke every Zerg whos used them in the past like year always jokes that they "didnt know what they were thinking" and stuff like that
Hydras are so bad that Toss sometimes open air to try to trick them into making them
On October 19 2012 11:55 saladToss wrote: The fact that infestors counter everything definitely sucks.
I think the idea of making infested terrans unable to hit air is actually pretty good. Zerg would still have an answer to protoss air in the form of fungal+corruptors, but it wouldn't be so overwhelming as to make vrs literally obsolete against units they should counter (broodlords).
but if VRs arent obsolete then the toss jsut masses them and wins
you might say "well make hydras" but by the time you have enough hydras to actually fight the VR ball and kill it then he has the perfect anti-hydra army and jsut bowls you over
if infesters couldnt kill VRs then Zerg just loses 100% of macro games because then we have no way to stop mass Air without relying on the hydra that is such a joke every Zerg whos used them in the past like year always jokes that they "didnt know what they were thinking" and stuff like that
Hydras are so bad that Toss sometimes open air to try to trick them into making them
Should just show him the developers blog on why they decided not to remove fungal hitting air.Saves so much more time.
On October 19 2012 11:55 saladToss wrote: The fact that infestors counter everything definitely sucks.
I think the idea of making infested terrans unable to hit air is actually pretty good. Zerg would still have an answer to protoss air in the form of fungal+corruptors, but it wouldn't be so overwhelming as to make vrs literally obsolete against units they should counter (broodlords).
but if VRs arent obsolete then the toss jsut masses them and wins
you might say "well make hydras" but by the time you have enough hydras to actually fight the VR ball and kill it then he has the perfect anti-hydra army and jsut bowls you over
if infesters couldnt kill VRs then Zerg just loses 100% of macro games because then we have no way to stop mass Air without relying on the hydra that is such a joke every Zerg whos used them in the past like year always jokes that they "didnt know what they were thinking" and stuff like that
Hydras are so bad that Toss sometimes open air to try to trick them into making them
Wasn't in fungal that made them obsolete in the first place, or was it a mix of fungal + IT? I remember Mana using VR-Collosi against Dimaga in some tournament, and he just kept on getting fungaled because the VRs always clumped.
On October 19 2012 11:55 saladToss wrote: The fact that infestors counter everything definitely sucks.
I think the idea of making infested terrans unable to hit air is actually pretty good. Zerg would still have an answer to protoss air in the form of fungal+corruptors, but it wouldn't be so overwhelming as to make vrs literally obsolete against units they should counter (broodlords).
but if VRs arent obsolete then the toss jsut masses them and wins
you might say "well make hydras" but by the time you have enough hydras to actually fight the VR ball and kill it then he has the perfect anti-hydra army and jsut bowls you over
if infesters couldnt kill VRs then Zerg just loses 100% of macro games because then we have no way to stop mass Air without relying on the hydra that is such a joke every Zerg whos used them in the past like year always jokes that they "didnt know what they were thinking" and stuff like that
Hydras are so bad that Toss sometimes open air to try to trick them into making them
Wasn't in fungal that made them obsolete in the first place, or was it a mix of fungal + IT? I remember Mana using VR-Collosi against Dimaga in some tournament, and he just kept on getting fungaled because the VRs always clumped.
Oh oh , I remember that game, but I think that was before the infestor nerf took place? At that time fungal was 8 secs I believe so chain fungaling was easier.
On October 19 2012 11:55 saladToss wrote: The fact that infestors counter everything definitely sucks.
I think the idea of making infested terrans unable to hit air is actually pretty good. Zerg would still have an answer to protoss air in the form of fungal+corruptors, but it wouldn't be so overwhelming as to make vrs literally obsolete against units they should counter (broodlords).
but if VRs arent obsolete then the toss jsut masses them and wins
you might say "well make hydras" but by the time you have enough hydras to actually fight the VR ball and kill it then he has the perfect anti-hydra army and jsut bowls you over
if infesters couldnt kill VRs then Zerg just loses 100% of macro games because then we have no way to stop mass Air without relying on the hydra that is such a joke every Zerg whos used them in the past like year always jokes that they "didnt know what they were thinking" and stuff like that
Hydras are so bad that Toss sometimes open air to try to trick them into making them
Wasn't in fungal that made them obsolete in the first place, or was it a mix of fungal + IT? I remember Mana using VR-Collosi against Dimaga in some tournament, and he just kept on getting fungaled because the VRs always clumped.
probably alot more fungal then IT, IT's arent so hot against fast moving air units
how exactly are all the complaints coming from P and Z?? Did I miss something and all of a sudden terran is playable by anyone other than like 10 koreans?
this is crazy time for sc2! Its like an explosion of QQ about the game that was bottled up inside for 2 years lol.
On October 19 2012 13:01 Irre wrote: how exactly are all the complaints coming from P and Z?? Did I miss something and all of a sudden terran is playable by anyone other than like 10 koreans?
this is crazy time for sc2! Its like an explosion of QQ about the game that was bottled up inside for 2 years lol.
Zerg aren't complaining. Toss are having a heyday and terrans are just grabbing popcorns. Always happens you know, you can switch the order of the races names and you will have the situation a few weeks ago when zergs are just watching terrans and toss go against each other over storms.
Edit: pretty funny how Sase and Naniwa are the ones making the most noise though. MC did one interview. Maybe sase and naniwa has made up? I remember one fanfiction that I saw regarding this two, good lord, made the hairs on my arms rise up.
On October 19 2012 12:48 Reborn8u wrote: A lot of things about protoss and it's matchups have been bothering me for a very long time. I think the biggest mistake top protoss players have made is waiting until now to speak up. Zerg players of all levels flooded in with complaints until they got a ton of buffs, meanwhile protoss got its core macro mechanic (warp) and its core units nerfed repeatedly.
The current meta game of zerg getting 3 free bases vs a 2 base protoss wasn't something Zerg players developed or worked out over time, it got patched into existence. The last warp and blink nerfs to protoss stopped protoss from being able to punish greedy 3rds without being all in. Protoss's options are to 2 base allin or play from behind trying to take a 3rd way after zerg and with fewer workers. Why did protoss get it's rushes nerfed so hard while zerg rushes did not get nerfed? Squeaky wheels get oil. Re-read the first lines of this post. Also, when zergs take fast 3rds they can attack protoss with the same strength of a protoss 2 base allin, except the zerg isn't all in. He can back off and macro and not be screwed.
The biggest issues with toss are:
1. Reliance on FF's to not die, which also means aggression using them is all in.
2. No way to get the map presence and vision that zerg or terran gets (creep, unit mobility, fungal, concussive, sensor towers, overlords/overseers, scans, burrow) the fact that protoss only has obs for map vision, and FF for controlling mobility is a big problem.
3. How late the mobility upgrades charge and blink are. Stim, concussive, medevacs, ling speed, roach speed, fungal, the other races can have all of these things by the time blink or charge is out. (yes, I know chargelots are very good vs terran, I'm not claiming it isn't!) I'm saying there is a huge period of time when they have these mobility advantages and protoss's only answer is FF, which stops them from being out on the map without an all in. Because if your army is not able to kill theirs, you can't retreat, and lose the game.
4. Taking a 3rd, terrans have PF's, flying buildings (which lets terran build 3rds inside the safety of the main) zerg has creep, and both have faster armies than toss in the early/mid game. Protoss should have the same viable opportunity to play for a fast 3rd. This poorly thought out area of protoss design is a big reason there is such small tolerances for what maps are viable or considered balanced. This issue of taking 3rds is closely related to the other 3 points I've made above.
How to fix it for HOTS?
1st of all make FF's have health, this alone opens a lot of doors for other protoss units to shine, map design, and micro. As stated in the OP give pylons some way to "phase out" so units can walk through, and you can use them as doors (like a supply depot), put shield batteries or something similar into the game to help protoss who want to go for a macro game and a fast 3rd. Make zealot speed more accessible by lowering the cost, and just get rid of charge (It's really, really bad for starcraft imo!). Then protoss can have a faster army earlier in the game without the over-poweredness of charge or FF. Fungal should not stop blinks or affect air, both are ridiculous, zergs can deal with either without fungal, ( a protoss that goes for air or blink early won't have colossus or storm early. Roach/Hydra can roll a toss who goes for these things before committing to robo! A zerg late game army of BL infestor, corruptor, roach will still rape a late game protoss army even if fungal doesn't affect these things) but as it is now zergs don't even have to bother keeping tabs and scouting well after the early game (at which time they know exactly what protoss has and protoss is blind, as discussed in the OP). Fungal deals with everything so why keep scouting? Protoss has to keep scouting and reacting to Zergs tech all game, it should work both ways!
What I think they should do with the oracle is give a "mass blink" ability. Like a mix between recall and blink. It can blink itself and everything under it. This gives protoss some mid game options that it desperately needs without the band-aid that is the mothership core. A mass blink ability would be really really cool, and fun, and interesting.
Another thing I'd like to see is nexus providing psi and having a really large vision radius. This would also help deal with protoss's issues vs harass and defense after taking a 3rd.
Really it's not any one problem that plagues Protoss. It's the synergy of all of it's issues that makes it such a problematic race. I'm not talking just about it's overall strength (which is lacking late game vs zerg and too good late game vs terran) I'm talking about gameplay.
Look at the matchups...... PvP= 1 base play decides the game, PvZ= 2 base all in, or lose to BL infestor unless zerg makes some major mistakes, PvT= turtle untill late game when you smash terrans tier 1 army with storm charge and colossus. Do any of these sound fun to you? (yes smashing terran late game is kind of fun, but the mid game and taking a 3rd is equally as frustrating, that is why so many maps have the free 3rd now, otherwise protoss can't get to that late game and Terran is in command from the time med evacs come out, and there is no swing back into the protoss's favor) It may be balanced with overall win rate, but it's a really shitty way to achieve balance. Real balance is when the game is 50/50 at every phase (or at least closer to 50/50 than what it is now!)
Excuse me, stephano single handledy brought the 3 base roach build into popularity. What do you mean by no zerg developed it but it was patch in. And yes, we should have 50/50 balance in all match up , so we should nerf toss since toss win rates are higher then zerg right now
Edit; and the warp in and blink nerf was to help out pvp with toss players. That says a lot when a race has to be nerf against itself just so their players will play a macro game. There was even a developers blog on sc2 forum which says they did it so toss will learn to macro against each other and not all in all the time.
I worded this poorly, your point is somewhat valid. What I mean is, it wasn't something that came about on it's own from player development of the meta game. Protoss got nerfed which made it viable. (if that is any clearer?) For example, when terrans started using all them ghosts late game vs zerg, it wasn't something that happened because of changes, it just took time to figure it out....
Also, to some of the other comments that pvp got nerfed because of protoss players just being bad and not wanting to figure out macro. Your thinking is completely backwards, viability exists because of what works, players don't pick what is viable, the games mechanics and rules dictate that. Believe me, you couldn't be more wrong, and many protoss players begged for something to be done. The problem is that every time blizzard makes a patch to change a matchup (literally every time, it's happened so many times now) it makes huge changes to other matchups. Which really boils down to them not properly testing things out, and getting good feedback before they are implemented. These are very minor points to my post, what do you think about the rest?
On October 19 2012 11:55 saladToss wrote: The fact that infestors counter everything definitely sucks.
I think the idea of making infested terrans unable to hit air is actually pretty good. Zerg would still have an answer to protoss air in the form of fungal+corruptors, but it wouldn't be so overwhelming as to make vrs literally obsolete against units they should counter (broodlords).
but if VRs arent obsolete then the toss jsut masses them and wins
you might say "well make hydras" but by the time you have enough hydras to actually fight the VR ball and kill it then he has the perfect anti-hydra army and jsut bowls you over
if infesters couldnt kill VRs then Zerg just loses 100% of macro games because then we have no way to stop mass Air without relying on the hydra that is such a joke every Zerg whos used them in the past like year always jokes that they "didnt know what they were thinking" and stuff like that
Hydras are so bad that Toss sometimes open air to try to trick them into making them
Wasn't in fungal that made them obsolete in the first place, or was it a mix of fungal + IT? I remember Mana using VR-Collosi against Dimaga in some tournament, and he just kept on getting fungaled because the VRs always clumped.
The problem is that zerg's anti air is awful except for Infestors so if Infestor anti air gets nerfed then Zerg is fucked.
I actually think Infestors are ok vs Protoss seeing as Protoss seems to win so much anyway but they are a problem in TvZ. Inestors make Terrans best unit almost obsolete and then Terran has very little to fall back on while they get raped by Brood, Corrupter, Ling
On October 19 2012 12:48 Reborn8u wrote: A lot of things about protoss and it's matchups have been bothering me for a very long time. I think the biggest mistake top protoss players have made is waiting until now to speak up. Zerg players of all levels flooded in with complaints until they got a ton of buffs, meanwhile protoss got its core macro mechanic (warp) and its core units nerfed repeatedly.
The current meta game of zerg getting 3 free bases vs a 2 base protoss wasn't something Zerg players developed or worked out over time, it got patched into existence. The last warp and blink nerfs to protoss stopped protoss from being able to punish greedy 3rds without being all in. Protoss's options are to 2 base allin or play from behind trying to take a 3rd way after zerg and with fewer workers. Why did protoss get it's rushes nerfed so hard while zerg rushes did not get nerfed? Squeaky wheels get oil. Re-read the first lines of this post. Also, when zergs take fast 3rds they can attack protoss with the same strength of a protoss 2 base allin, except the zerg isn't all in. He can back off and macro and not be screwed.
The biggest issues with toss are:
1. Reliance on FF's to not die, which also means aggression using them is all in.
2. No way to get the map presence and vision that zerg or terran gets (creep, unit mobility, fungal, concussive, sensor towers, overlords/overseers, scans, burrow) the fact that protoss only has obs for map vision, and FF for controlling mobility is a big problem.
3. How late the mobility upgrades charge and blink are. Stim, concussive, medevacs, ling speed, roach speed, fungal, the other races can have all of these things by the time blink or charge is out. (yes, I know chargelots are very good vs terran, I'm not claiming it isn't!) I'm saying there is a huge period of time when they have these mobility advantages and protoss's only answer is FF, which stops them from being out on the map without an all in. Because if your army is not able to kill theirs, you can't retreat, and lose the game.
4. Taking a 3rd, terrans have PF's, flying buildings (which lets terran build 3rds inside the safety of the main) zerg has creep, and both have faster armies than toss in the early/mid game. Protoss should have the same viable opportunity to play for a fast 3rd. This poorly thought out area of protoss design is a big reason there is such small tolerances for what maps are viable or considered balanced. This issue of taking 3rds is closely related to the other 3 points I've made above.
How to fix it for HOTS?
1st of all make FF's have health, this alone opens a lot of doors for other protoss units to shine, map design, and micro. As stated in the OP give pylons some way to "phase out" so units can walk through, and you can use them as doors (like a supply depot), put shield batteries or something similar into the game to help protoss who want to go for a macro game and a fast 3rd. Make zealot speed more accessible by lowering the cost, and just get rid of charge (It's really, really bad for starcraft imo!). Then protoss can have a faster army earlier in the game without the over-poweredness of charge or FF. Fungal should not stop blinks or affect air, both are ridiculous, zergs can deal with either without fungal, ( a protoss that goes for air or blink early won't have colossus or storm early. Roach/Hydra can roll a toss who goes for these things before committing to robo! A zerg late game army of BL infestor, corruptor, roach will still rape a late game protoss army even if fungal doesn't affect these things) but as it is now zergs don't even have to bother keeping tabs and scouting well after the early game (at which time they know exactly what protoss has and protoss is blind, as discussed in the OP). Fungal deals with everything so why keep scouting? Protoss has to keep scouting and reacting to Zergs tech all game, it should work both ways!
What I think they should do with the oracle is give a "mass blink" ability. Like a mix between recall and blink. It can blink itself and everything under it. This gives protoss some mid game options that it desperately needs without the band-aid that is the mothership core. A mass blink ability would be really really cool, and fun, and interesting.
Another thing I'd like to see is nexus providing psi and having a really large vision radius. This would also help deal with protoss's issues vs harass and defense after taking a 3rd.
Really it's not any one problem that plagues Protoss. It's the synergy of all of it's issues that makes it such a problematic race. I'm not talking just about it's overall strength (which is lacking late game vs zerg and too good late game vs terran) I'm talking about gameplay.
Look at the matchups...... PvP= 1 base play decides the game, PvZ= 2 base all in, or lose to BL infestor unless zerg makes some major mistakes, PvT= turtle untill late game when you smash terrans tier 1 army with storm charge and colossus. Do any of these sound fun to you? (yes smashing terran late game is kind of fun, but the mid game and taking a 3rd is equally as frustrating, that is why so many maps have the free 3rd now, otherwise protoss can't get to that late game and Terran is in command from the time med evacs come out, and there is no swing back into the protoss's favor) It may be balanced with overall win rate, but it's a really shitty way to achieve balance. Real balance is when the game is 50/50 at every phase (or at least closer to 50/50 than what it is now!)
Excuse me, stephano single handledy brought the 3 base roach build into popularity. What do you mean by no zerg developed it but it was patch in. And yes, we should have 50/50 balance in all match up , so we should nerf toss since toss win rates are higher then zerg right now
Edit; and the warp in and blink nerf was to help out pvp with toss players. That says a lot when a race has to be nerf against itself just so their players will play a macro game. There was even a developers blog on sc2 forum which says they did it so toss will learn to macro against each other and not all in all the time.
I worded this poorly, your point is somewhat valid. What I mean is, it wasn't something that came about on it's own from player development of the meta game. Protoss got nerfed which made it viable. (if that is any clearer?) For example, when terrans started using all them ghosts late game vs zerg, it wasn't something that happened because of changes, it just took time to figure it out....
Also, to some of the other comments that pvp got nerfed because of protoss players just being bad and not wanting to figure out macro. Your thinking is completely backwards, viability exists because of what works, players don't pick what is viable, the games mechanics and rules dictate that. Believe me, you couldn't be more wrong, and many protoss players begged for something to be done. The problem is that every time blizzard makes a patch to change a matchup (literally every time, it's happened so many times now) it makes huge changes to other matchups. Which really boils down to them not properly testing things out, and getting good feedback before they are implemented. This is a very minor point, what do you think about the rest?
Yes, I agree with you on the points on toss match ups being so fucked up. It says something when you turtle to a deathball against terran, all in against protoss, 2 base all in against zerg. But is it a race problem? No I disagree. Design problem? hell yeah, toss units are stupidly designed. Regarding the issue of toss being forced to macro, it came from blizzard not, it was in one of their situation reports where they talked about the pylon nerf. Problem is my opinions would not reflect the general opinions toss have. Toss will suggest nerfs to the other two races, zerg and terran would just tell them to l2p. The only one who knows the datas are blizzard but they are keeping quiet on the issue, we won't know what is the main problem UNLESS blizzard talks.
I like some of these ideas, particularly some of the oracle tweak ideas, I think they have a lot of potential.
Hope Blizzard sees this and takes it into consideration. I think we need to see the infestor nerfed and nearly all other zerg units buffed, allowing zerg 1 and 2 base to be more viable thus allowing map making to be more varied (so that a third can actually be farther away and things of that nature). Pro corner with destiny, desrow, and morrow got me thinking things like that.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though.
On October 19 2012 13:06 FakeDeath wrote: What the hell?
Putting a timer on spawning pool?
Seriously Sase?
Yeah I like how he complains about a 6 pool vs nexus first but as a zerg player we can't hatch first or we die to a cannon rush. AND when wanting to go nexus first you should be scouting and if you see an early pool you put down a forge and put a cannon and you are fine, where as, as a zerg player if you want to hatch first it has to be done blindly and praying to god that toss doesn't scout you in time and goes nexus first.
On October 19 2012 13:10 mayneeahk wrote: I like some of these ideas, particularly some of the oracle tweak ideas, I think they have a lot of potential.
Hope Blizzard sees this and takes it into consideration. I think we need to see the infestor nerfed and nearly all other zerg units buffed, allowing zerg 1 and 2 base to be more viable thus allowing map making to be more varied (so that a third can actually be farther away and things of that nature). Pro corner with destiny, desrow, and morrow got me thinking things like that.
But to be honest ,I as a zerg would be really really happy if we can a unit that can harassed before lair just like the mother ship core type of unit if it means nerfing the infestor. Would make the game more fun for me and actually makes the match up more interesting with battles rather then drone drone drone on 3 base.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though.
It's very rare for a player to win in a normal game without infestors. When I mean winning without infestors is normally when zerg does something gimicky. I am not counting when a roach/ling 2 base all in works or on the rare occasion the 200 max roach push works (now of days protosses deal with this so so well I rarely see it work).
A zerg can't go all game without infestors he loses otherwise. for instance if you see a zerg being aggressive at lair tech with roach/ling/muta he pretty much has to do a ton of damage or kill the protoss. It really is essentially an all in because unless you do significant damage it is hard to get those infestors out and tech up.
There are gimicky things you can do but you will never consistently beat a protoss or terran player without infestors in the way zerg is designed right now.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though.
It's very rare for a player to win in a normal game without infestors. When I mean winning without infestors is normally when zerg does something gimicky. I am not counting when a roach/ling 2 base all in works or on the rare occasion the 200 max roach push works (now of days protosses deal with this so so well I rarely see it work).
A zerg can't go all game without infestors he loses otherwise. for instance if you see a zerg being aggressive at lair tech with roach/ling/muta he pretty much has to do a ton of damage or kill the protoss. It really is essentially an all in because unless you do significant damage it is hard to get those infestors out and tech up.
There are gimicky things you can do but you will never consistently beat a protoss or terran player without infestors in the way zerg is designed right now.
Just to back up what he said, look at the recent MC vs DRG game 2 where he harassed the hell out of mc and basically won the game with muta ling but can't end it because he needed infestors and broodlords. That tells you how important the infestor is to us when we got a huge advantage but can't end a game without that worm.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Blade I love your stream and your general demeanor when it comes to these threads, but right now I can't agree with you, what SaSe says about the early game is completely true, especially since the Queen buff. There wouldn't be a buff to compensate for the nerf since the Queen buff was just a buff out of no where, nothing to precipitate it. Also I don't want to play the ad hominem card, but right now its a semi-pro/low level pro who also has a job while being GM against one of the top 5 foreign protosses. I do very much agree about sentry/infestor issues, but they have been around forever and it seems like blizz has no intention of changing it.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Blade I love your stream and your general demeanor when it comes to these threads, but right now I can't agree with you, what SaSe says about the early game is completely true, especially since the Queen buff. There wouldn't be a buff to compensate for the nerf since the Queen buff was just a buff out of no where, nothing to precipitate it. Also I don't want to play the ad hominem card, but right now its a semi-pro/low level pro who also has a job while being GM against one of the top 5 foreign protosses. I do very much agree about sentry/infestor issues, but they have been around forever and it seems like blizz has no intention of changing it.
The Queen buff wasn't just out of nowhere. It was meant to address the ZvT issues where Terran had too much mapcontrol with hellions.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though.
Life makes plenty of Infestors. Just because he plays more aggressive early on and doesn't turtle to hive doesn't mean he doesn't make them, did you actually watch his games?
Leenock uses Infestors heavily too, I don't know what games you're really watching.
The only reason Muta/Ling still works sometimes when players like DRG or Leenock use it, is because the Infestor option exists, and Terrans don't expect it 100% of the time like they used to. And even then, Zerg often has to transition to Infestors to finish the game.
the problem with toss being strong midgame is that we have no way to press our advantage without going all-in. So what if we are strong in the midgame, we only have two options with it. Do a two base all-in because we can't just pressure off of two bases or we use our midgame advantage to secure a 3rd which then negates our midgame advantage.
Yeah I like how he complains about a 6 pool vs nexus first but as a zerg player we can't hatch first or we die to a cannon rush. AND when wanting to go nexus first you should be scouting and if you see an early pool you put down a forge and put a cannon and you are fine, where as, as a zerg player if you want to hatch first it has to be done blindly and praying to god that toss doesn't scout you in time and goes nexus first.
Its also a lot easier to attack non moving buildings then it is to attack a lings in ur base.
On October 19 2012 13:29 MysteryMeat1 wrote: the problem with toss being strong midgame is that we have no way to press our advantage without going all-in. So what if we are strong in the midgame, we only have two options with it. Do a two base all-in because we can't just pressure off of two bases or we use our midgame advantage to secure a 3rd which then negates our midgame advantage.
Yeah I like how he complains about a 6 pool vs nexus first but as a zerg player we can't hatch first or we die to a cannon rush. AND when wanting to go nexus first you should be scouting and if you see an early pool you put down a forge and put a cannon and you are fine, where as, as a zerg player if you want to hatch first it has to be done blindly and praying to god that toss doesn't scout you in time and goes nexus first.
Its also a lot easier to attack non moving buildings then it is to attack a lings in ur base.
not when they're blocked by pylons and you cant do anything
On October 19 2012 13:29 MysteryMeat1 wrote: the problem with toss being strong midgame is that we have no way to press our advantage without going all-in. So what if we are strong in the midgame, we only have two options with it. Do a two base all-in because we can't just pressure off of two bases or we use our midgame advantage to secure a 3rd which then negates our midgame advantage.
Yeah I like how he complains about a 6 pool vs nexus first but as a zerg player we can't hatch first or we die to a cannon rush. AND when wanting to go nexus first you should be scouting and if you see an early pool you put down a forge and put a cannon and you are fine, where as, as a zerg player if you want to hatch first it has to be done blindly and praying to god that toss doesn't scout you in time and goes nexus first.
Its also a lot easier to attack non moving buildings then it is to attack a lings in ur base.
not when they're blocked by pylons and you cant do anything
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though.
Life makes plenty of Infestors. Just because he plays more aggressive early on and doesn't turtle to hive doesn't mean he doesn't make them, did you actually watch his games?
Leenock uses Infestors heavily too, I don't know what games you're really watching.
The only reason Muta/Ling still works sometimes when players like DRG or Leenock use it, is because the Infestor option exists, and Terrans don't expect it 100% of the time like they used to. And even then, Zerg often has to transition to Infestors to finish the game.
Yea I stand corrected. I could have sworn that Life took some games on Taeja and MKP without infestors but again, if I'm wrong just tell me. I've been up for 29 hours now >.>
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though.
Life makes plenty of Infestors. Just because he plays more aggressive early on and doesn't turtle to hive doesn't mean he doesn't make them, did you actually watch his games?
Leenock uses Infestors heavily too, I don't know what games you're really watching.
The only reason Muta/Ling still works sometimes when players like DRG or Leenock use it, is because the Infestor option exists, and Terrans don't expect it 100% of the time like they used to. And even then, Zerg often has to transition to Infestors to finish the game.
Yea I stand corrected. I could have sworn that Life took some games on Taeja and MKP without infestors but again, if I'm wrong just tell me. I've been up for 29 hours now >.>
Just out of curiosity sake and a slight 5 secs off topicness, why are you up for 29 hours!?
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though.
Life makes plenty of Infestors. Just because he plays more aggressive early on and doesn't turtle to hive doesn't mean he doesn't make them, did you actually watch his games?
Leenock uses Infestors heavily too, I don't know what games you're really watching.
The only reason Muta/Ling still works sometimes when players like DRG or Leenock use it, is because the Infestor option exists, and Terrans don't expect it 100% of the time like they used to. And even then, Zerg often has to transition to Infestors to finish the game.
Yea I stand corrected. I could have sworn that Life took some games on Taeja and MKP without infestors but again, if I'm wrong just tell me. I've been up for 29 hours now >.>
If Life doesn't finish Terrans off with his aggressive openers he almost always makes infestors when transitioning into a macro game.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though.
Life makes plenty of Infestors. Just because he plays more aggressive early on and doesn't turtle to hive doesn't mean he doesn't make them, did you actually watch his games?
Leenock uses Infestors heavily too, I don't know what games you're really watching.
The only reason Muta/Ling still works sometimes when players like DRG or Leenock use it, is because the Infestor option exists, and Terrans don't expect it 100% of the time like they used to. And even then, Zerg often has to transition to Infestors to finish the game.
Yea I stand corrected. I could have sworn that Life took some games on Taeja and MKP without infestors but again, if I'm wrong just tell me. I've been up for 29 hours now >.>
He did win one vs TaeJa with muta ling bane all in; but that was an all-in
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though.
Life makes plenty of Infestors. Just because he plays more aggressive early on and doesn't turtle to hive doesn't mean he doesn't make them, did you actually watch his games?
Leenock uses Infestors heavily too, I don't know what games you're really watching.
The only reason Muta/Ling still works sometimes when players like DRG or Leenock use it, is because the Infestor option exists, and Terrans don't expect it 100% of the time like they used to. And even then, Zerg often has to transition to Infestors to finish the game.
Yea I stand corrected. I could have sworn that Life took some games on Taeja and MKP without infestors but again, if I'm wrong just tell me. I've been up for 29 hours now >.>
Just out of curiosity sake and a slight 5 secs off topicness, why are you up for 29 hours!?
Woke up at 7 PM yesterday and pulled an all nighter because I had a lab report and an English paper due. My English class is from 6:30-9:00 PM and I dropped by a friends house on my way back from school. Reading these threads has kept me up lol. Gonna make shin ramyun and hope food coma brings me the ZZZs. I've also just developed a really wierd sleep schedule from school/GSL/gaming lol
Some of the suggestions seem too drastic and I am suprised this came up because top level Protoss seem to be doing well lately. So are these suggestions for lower level players?
If anything I would only complain about how freaking boring pvz matches are to watch these days. They all end up the same for the most part.
Infestor is absurdly OP. It moves faster than the other casters, its spells are better, it spawns free units that do get better with upgrades (raven doesn't), it burrows and leaves faster than many units can chase them including detectors. It's good against everything. Every unit in every matchup, infestor is never a bad idea.
So I agree wholeheartedly with Sase, just nerf infestor to oblivion and then buff it.
On October 19 2012 13:01 Irre wrote: how exactly are all the complaints coming from P and Z?? Did I miss something and all of a sudden terran is playable by anyone other than like 10 koreans?
this is crazy time for sc2! Its like an explosion of QQ about the game that was bottled up inside for 2 years lol.
the only real complaints atm are TvZ and PvZ, basically zerg is far too strong atm.
sase never complains about PvT, apart from the warp in thing to defend dropswhich is very minor and wouldnt affect balance.
No one can deny that PvZ needs some serious buffs, i personally like the changes sase suggested, some cool ideas to make the game more balanced and more interesting
On October 19 2012 13:45 Shinespark wrote: Infestor is absurdly OP. It moves faster than the other casters, its spells are better, it spawns free units that do get better with upgrades (raven doesn't), it burrows and leaves faster than many units can chase them including detectors. It's good against everything. Every unit in every matchup, infestor is never a bad idea.
So I agree wholeheartedly with Sase, just nerf infestor to oblivion and then buff it.
the 2 things i would really like to see changed is moving underground (roaches can too, but that requires upgrade) why the hell can infestors? it makes no sense. combine that with casting underground... just makes no sense. remove both of those aspects
On October 19 2012 13:01 Irre wrote: how exactly are all the complaints coming from P and Z?? Did I miss something and all of a sudden terran is playable by anyone other than like 10 koreans?
this is crazy time for sc2! Its like an explosion of QQ about the game that was bottled up inside for 2 years lol.
the only real complaints atm are TvZ and PvZ, basically zerg is far too strong atm.
sase never complains about PvT, apart from the warp in thing to defend dropswhich is very minor and wouldnt affect balance.
No one can deny that PvZ needs some serious buffs, i personally like the changes sase suggested, some cool ideas to make the game more balanced and more interesting
Of course sase doesn't complain about PvT, terrans are complaining about Protoss! Storms and colossus!You are op to them, its the classic rock paper scissor explanation. And you being toss of course would like the changes he recommends even if it would totally break zerg to be weak as shit.
On October 19 2012 13:53 oOOoOphidian wrote: The game would be pretty fun for me too if blizzard removed everything in it that I ever lost to and added cool new ways for me to easily win. 8)
Yet another foreign player rationalizing why he's not doing good enough right now.
I love how every time one of these pops up in Teamliquid, there are glowing counter arguments easily available in Korean professionals. Terran impossible to win? Taeja and Mvp crushing faces. Protoss too weak, unfair, not enough options, disadvantageous, etc? I don't think there's ever been a worse time to complain about Protoss; see every tournament in the past 6 months. Zerg? Not doing _as_ hot today as some time ago, but that doesn't say much. Scarlett, Stephano, DRG, Life, etc.
Also what is this doing in Starcraft II general. If this remains as it is, it should be a blog, because Starcraft II General does not encompass opinion pieces from some pro player honestly. Maybe go back to it and reformulate it for the Strategy forum? Don't know, but this was painful to read.
you may be right about some issues in PvZ, but your suggestions are really bad. you want to nerf the shit out of zerg and that's it. lol and some of the balance suggestions you made are just non sense, there are a lot of things to consider when you make any kind of change in the game. it seems more like a QQ thread then a thought out suggestion list, even if you have some reasoning behind your complaints.
On October 19 2012 13:57 ilbh wrote: you may be right about some issues in PvZ, but your suggestions are really bad. you want to nerf the shit out of zerg and that's it. lol and some of the balance suggestions you made are just non sense, there are a lot of things to consider when you make any kind of change in the game. it seems more like a QQ thread then a thought out suggestion list, even if you have some reasoning behind your complaints.
this is anything but a QQ thread, he explained why zerg was too strong, then addressed changes he would like to see and gave reasons for them and talked about how he thought the changes would affect the game.
You obviously dont know what QQ is, or just have something against sase and want to flame him
Why doesn't anyone agree with him!?!?!? He is correct for goodness sake, but one thing he is missing is drones. Mofos wiggling around like they are some bad ass and shit, they should be nerfed to not be able to carry any minerals so they can't wiggle those flappy ass when they carry the minerals back home. That should teach zergs what is balance. mother fuckers.
On October 19 2012 13:57 ilbh wrote: you may be right about some issues in PvZ, but your suggestions are really bad. you want to nerf the shit out of zerg and that's it. lol and some of the balance suggestions you made are just non sense, there are a lot of things to consider when you make any kind of change in the game. it seems more like a QQ thread then a thought out suggestion list, even if you have some reasoning behind your complaints.
this is anything but a QQ thread, he explained why zerg was too strong, then addressed changes he would like to see and gave reasons for them and talked about how he thought the changes would affect the game.
You obviously dont know what QQ is, or just have something against sase and want to flame him
The moment he said put a timer on spawning pool during 1:20 or whatever the time for 10 pool is. I already wasn't taking him seriously.
Unless you agreed that a timer should be put on spawning pool?LOL
Sase is clearly complaining. Probably he just lost to a 6-pool recently.
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
This. Oh, and saying "x doesn't make sense" isn't a reason for why x should be nerfed.
Imo, I think op has good points. With the suggested zerg nerfs, why not take the occasion to buff the hydralisk? Maybe toss could get a slight nerf to compensate too. Mothership IS a problem right now, much like the versatility of the infestor.
Personally what i really hate is the unit pathing+infinite control group that's ruining it for me. The way units clump up leading to death ball vs death ball scenarios. THIS is a major issue right now, from a spectator point of view.
If a zerg goes 6 pool, I scout early and defend perfectly, zerg should be dead... But in SC2, he is still totally in the game... Behind certainly, but no where near as far behind as he should be.
I never liked the idea of a unit that you can only make one of... The concept just doesn't make sense in Starcraft. And now we completely depend on it... Other ideas that just don't fit with SC in my mind: force fields, concussion shells, broodlords. They are just weird to me...
And the hold position thing, god... Fix the damn thing already, Blizzard!
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
This. Oh, and saying "x doesn't make sense" isn't a reason for why x should be nerfed.
Imo, I think op has good points. With the suggested zerg nerfs, why not take the occasion to buff the hydralisk? Maybe toss could get a slight nerf to compensate too. Mothership IS a problem right now, much like the versatility of the infestor.
Personally what i really hate is the unit pathing+infinite control group that's ruining it for me. The way units clump up leading to death ball vs death ball scenarios. THIS is a major issue right now, from a spectator point of view.
Well no one says you have to have them in one control group. Top zergs like DRG currently box different units and position them in other places so they can get a better surround and not clump up.
This is why I don't care what Protoss players think. The dude is actually complaining about spine crawlers moving around. He actually thinks that was a bad idea.
On October 19 2012 14:03 GabrielB wrote: I agree with most of what Sase said.
If a zerg goes 6 pool, I scout early and defend perfectly, zerg should be dead... But in SC2, he is still totally in the game... Behind certainly, but no where near as far behind as he should be.
I never liked the idea of a unit that you can only make one of... The concept just doesn't make sense in Starcraft. And now we completely depend on it... Other ideas that just don't fit with SC in my mind: force fields, concussion shells, broodlords. They are just weird to me...
And the hold position thing, god... Fix the damn thing already, Blizzard!
lol? Our queens are known to suicide into battle when ever they like during siege moments even on hold position, so I have no idea what you are complaining about since our queens are like your chronoboost, them dying is like our macro is dying.
On October 19 2012 13:57 ilbh wrote: you may be right about some issues in PvZ, but your suggestions are really bad. you want to nerf the shit out of zerg and that's it. lol and some of the balance suggestions you made are just non sense, there are a lot of things to consider when you make any kind of change in the game. it seems more like a QQ thread then a thought out suggestion list, even if you have some reasoning behind your complaints.
this is anything but a QQ thread, he explained why zerg was too strong, then addressed changes he would like to see and gave reasons for them and talked about how he thought the changes would affect the game.
You obviously dont know what QQ is, or just have something against sase and want to flame him
I said it seems more like a QQ thread, not that it really is a QQ thread, because his suggestions weren't really thought out, but rather made in the flow while writting all the text. he didn't think about the consequences or anything that should be considered when he made his suggestions.
On October 19 2012 14:04 _Search_ wrote: This is why I don't care what Protoss players think. The dude is actually complaining about spine crawlers moving around. He actually thinks that was a bad idea.
Terran can salvage bunkers, lift buildings, up down supply depots, cruise around and stuff.What does toss do? Nothing.
When he whined that terrans has this and toss has nothing, I know this thread is going to be good.
On October 19 2012 12:52 JLew wrote: lol Sase makes a Darvin Moon joke.. Guy is my new favorite player.
Glad I'm not the only person who got that lol.
On topic, the whole post really comes off incredibly whiny. Not really surprising considering a lot of pros whine just as much as the rest of us. I think the only point in the entire post (at least w.r.t WoL) is about zealot walls not always being tight when units are supposedly plugging it. I've won more than my fair share of games by forcing a bunch of lings through a zealot-plugged gap by some apparently magical means. That shouldn't happen IMO. But the rest of it just seems like his idea of balance is Zerg never winning a ZvP again. To be perfectly honest, I don't really see any more merit to these ideas than the countless others posted by complete randoms. Eliminating any pools <10, forcefields between buildings, ITs attacking ground-only, etc? Seriously, WTF?
This is a QQ thread that would have been closed instantly if posted by a non-pro. The timing is also incredibly poor given the recent top 4 protoss finish in a tournament comprised almost entirely of pvz.
On October 19 2012 12:52 JLew wrote: lol Sase makes a Darvin Moon joke.. Guy is my new favorite player.
Glad I'm not the only person who got that lol.
On topic, the whole post really comes off incredibly whiny. Not really surprising considering a lot of pros whine just as much as the rest of us. I think the only point in the entire post (at least w.r.t WoL) is about zealot walls not always being tight when units are supposedly plugging it. I've won more than my fair share of games by forcing a bunch of lings through a zealot-plugged gap by some apparently magical means. That shouldn't happen IMO. But the rest of it just seems like his idea of balance is Zerg never winning a ZvP again. To be perfectly honest, I don't really see any more merit to these ideas than the countless others posted by complete randoms. Eliminating any pools <10, forcefields between buildings, ITs attacking ground-only, etc? Seriously, WTF?
LOL, did you realise he skipped from early game discussion to late game? Even he knows toss midgame is fucking strong. I swear some players cherry pick what they say just to appear that its imbalance costing them games, not the player themselves.
This is an absouloute awful read. It's basicly just you whining. A straight up whining session of all the things that you lose to. A section on zerg was the worst.
"My suggestion would be to put a timer on spawning pool, like you can only build it after 1:20 or whatever the time for 10 pool is."
Like seriously? Just becasue you lose to 6 pool? Go out and scout after pylon: on a 4 player map send 2 probes out. You aslo complain about ling runbys and early ling agresstion. Dude just put a zealot on hold position at the wall. Some cannons. Leave a sentry home.
Infested terrans can attack air. Makes toss air pretty useless. Could remove this.
*You can't fungel something that's fungeled. This way stalkers would be able to blink away and not be stuck forever.
If this was anyone else and not a well respected professtional they would be flamed into hell for all this blatent biasty. Seriously can't get my head around why you would think it is ok to write this under the disgise of the recent great threads written intelligent members of the community. You barley touch on HOTS and mainly write about your current problems in WOL, you really think Blizzard or anyone really will take this seriously? Lost a lot of respect for you here man.
On October 19 2012 12:06 JJH777 wrote: I thought this would be a better thread... If you did all these changes zerg would never win a game against a top level Protoss. You have to realize that in Korean tournaments the win-rates have not been immensely favoring zerg. They are like 50-50 in this GSL season. Sure almost all of these wins are 2 or 3 base timings but that doesn't change the fact that they are 50-50.
I think the matchup does need to change because being balanced based on one race being strong early and the other being strong in the late game is dumb but if you are going to nerf the way zerg currently wins games then you either need to buff another area of zerg or nerf Protoss in the way that they currently win.
Think about the protoss wins, How many of those are because mothership? If that gets removed, like SaSe suggests, PvZ will be heavilly zerg favoured. They will also learn how to stop more 2-3 base timings and be even more favoured. This post isn't so much about just nerfing zerg, it's about removing mothership, and thus nerf the infestor to balance it out. He also wants to take away some of protoss volatility in the matchup, which is good.
All in all, goood ideas, i agree on most if not all things.
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
I'd struggle to believe this post came from anyone in GM leagues, let alone a professional gamer, honestly.
This is not only incredibly embarassing for you, but a set of some of the most ridiculous suggestions I've ever read on this forum regard balance changes.
In fact, if this was anyone but a pro-gamer, this thread would be instantly closed 100% for balance whining, I'm honestly shocked this hasn't been yet.
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
Watch WCS Korea? Where Protoss was stomping everyone.
You realize Top 8 in WCS Korea is all Toss except for one zerg(Roro).
WCS Asia everybody pretty much expected Korean to dominate either way.
A lot of Protosses are saying that it is really hard to defeat a Zerg in the late game. How do you feel about the infestor/brood lord composition?
I really want to show what you should do soon for the GSTL. I had been feeling that late game Zerg wall for about two months now but I think I've overcome it. And I think my skills have gotten better ever since I've figured this out as well.
Maybe thats why he is a good protoss at the lategame stages. Most protosses finished the game with a 2 base / 3 base all in. Not a lot of protoss ever tried to practice their lategame.
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
i never knew roro and curious were much weaker. You would think "OP zerg" would allow them to do better right? Like others have said, if this was anyone else posting it would have been locked by now.
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
Much weaker opponents including 2 code S Zergs, you know that oh-so-OP race with Infestors, who according to mr. Sase's recent tweets need to just make Infestors to get wins from players much better than them? So why didn't they just make Infestors and get top 2?
Oh, and why do you think 7 out of 10 Korean players were those "highest caliber Protosses on the planet"? Could it be because they eliminated all the "higest caliber" players of other races in the Korean qualifiers?
A lot of Protosses are saying that it is really hard to defeat a Zerg in the late game. How do you feel about the infestor/brood lord composition?
I really want to show what you should do soon for the GSTL. I had been feeling that late game Zerg wall for about two months now but I think I've overcome it. And I think my skills have gotten better ever since I've figured this out as well.
Maybe thats why he is a good protoss at the lategame stages. Most protosses finished the game with a 2 base / 3 base all in. Not a lot of protoss never tried to practice their lategame.
QFT, look at players like select, BITbyBIT. They are examples of terrans who all in to fame only to be brought back to the ground when their all ins fail. Its logical to think that when you all in all the time, your macro would be shit and that is what most toss are doing at the moment.
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
RoRo and curious are much weaker? lol. can't believe we have stuffs like this.
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
Oh you mean the highest caliber protoss that beat all of the highest caliber zerg in the WCS korean nationals? Where all but 1 zerg was knocked out by the RO8 (7 protoss 1 zerg in RO8)? Then WCS asia the same thing happened again with 6 protoss and 2 zerg?
The fact is, the game is actually essentially balanced. Mothership needs tweaking and as a result BL's would too, but everything else is golden.
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
I think anyone who is knowledgeable about the game would say that PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup currently, and that some pretty drastic changes are necessary to do something to make it more realistic for Protoss so that toss doesn't have to play "perfect" in early-game to not insta-die to lings in mineral lines, in mid-game to not get over-run by speed roach/ling, and in late-game to have a snowball's chance in hell against Infestor, Broodlord, and 100 spine/spore crawler. This matchup is very lopsided, almost anyone can see it now. Ask top Terran players how they feel about PvZ.
The game is not balanced. Using tournament results to claim or justify balance is unrealistic; everyone who plays the "WCS Korea" card has to answer "what about GSL Season 4"? It goes around and around, because in high-level play, too much revolves around mindgames based on the opening build order. Protoss players can get very far on their PvP and PvT alone, only to hit a brick wall when they run into a top Z player.
I'd struggle to believe this post came from anyone in GM leagues, let alone a professional gamer, honestly.
This is not only incredibly embarassing for you, but a set of some of the most ridiculous suggestions I've ever read on this forum regard balance changes.
In fact, if this was anyone but a pro-gamer, this thread would be instantly closed 100% for balance whining, I'm honestly shocked this hasn't been yet.
Absouloutly agree.
A timer on spawning pool, (10 pool latest it can be) So I can always nexus first. Make the pylon raduis bigger I have trouble warping in late game. Nerf infestor to the ground, its good unit. Creep spread too good I can't have free map control. I can't send 1 probe out and get a full scout of thier base because the zerg has lings outside. Zerg has too many spines and i can't kill him!
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
I think anyone who is knowledgeable about the game would say that PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup currently, and that some pretty drastic changes are necessary to do something to make it more realistic for Protoss so that toss doesn't have to play "perfect" in early-game to not insta-die to lings in mineral lines, in mid-game to not get over-run by speed roach/ling, and in late-game to have a snowball's chance in hell against Infestor, Broodlord, and 100 spine/spore crawler. This matchup is very lopsided, almost anyone can see it now. Ask top Terran players how they feel about PvZ.
In other words, not let zerg win at any moment? Dude, you really got to read what you are typing.
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
I think anyone who is knowledgeable about the game would say that PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup currently, and that some pretty drastic changes are necessary to do something to make it more realistic for Protoss so that toss doesn't have to play "perfect" in early-game to not insta-die to lings in mineral lines, in mid-game to not get over-run by speed roach/ling, and in late-game to have a snowball's chance in hell against Infestor, Broodlord, and 100 spine/spore crawler. This matchup is very lopsided, almost anyone can see it now. Ask top Terran players how they feel about PvZ.
As if zerg didnt have to play a perfect early/midgame to not loose to all ins :D
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
I think anyone who is knowledgeable about the game would say that PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup currently, and that some pretty drastic changes are necessary to do something to make it more realistic for Protoss so that toss doesn't have to play "perfect" in early-game to not insta-die to lings in mineral lines, in mid-game to not get over-run by speed roach/ling, and in late-game to have a snowball's chance in hell against Infestor, Broodlord, and 100 spine/spore crawler. This matchup is very lopsided, almost anyone can see it now. Ask top Terran players how they feel about PvZ.
Then can you please teach me how to stop 2 base Startale-esque Immortal/sentry base timing. XD
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
I think anyone who is knowledgeable about the game would say that PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup currently, and that some pretty drastic changes are necessary to do something to make it more realistic for Protoss so that toss doesn't have to play "perfect" in early-game to not insta-die to lings in mineral lines, in mid-game to not get over-run by speed roach/ling, and in late-game to have a snowball's chance in hell against Infestor, Broodlord, and 100 spine/spore crawler. This matchup is very lopsided, almost anyone can see it now. Ask top Terran players how they feel about PvZ.
So it's because all the Zergs are bad and Protoss have been playing perfect to overcome the odds stacked all against the poor sad Zealots that they got almost all the seeds for WCS then... OK, got it. 1st and 3rd on WCG Korea, that's perfect play, opponents sucked. Last GSL, same.. This GSL, only semis, must have made one mistake, I suppose, and that was enough to lose even though his opponent made way more, right? OSL finalist, played perfect, opponents sucked even though they were all OP. Needs drastic changes, that's for sure...
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
I think anyone who is knowledgeable about the game would say that PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup currently, and that some pretty drastic changes are necessary to do something to make it more realistic for Protoss so that toss doesn't have to play "perfect" in early-game to not insta-die to lings in mineral lines, in mid-game to not get over-run by speed roach/ling, and in late-game to have a snowball's chance in hell against Infestor, Broodlord, and 100 spine/spore crawler. This matchup is very lopsided, almost anyone can see it now. Ask top Terran players how they feel about PvZ.
The game is not balanced. Using tournament results to claim or justify balance is unrealistic; everyone who plays the "WCS Korea" card has to answer "what about GSL Season 4"? It goes around and around, because in high-level play, too much revolves around mindgames based on the opening build order. Protoss players can get very far on their PvP and PvT alone, only to hit a brick wall when they run into a top Z player.
When was the last time a zerg won with a 6pool? Hell, 6 pool doesnt even work against hatch first zergs anymore. Then to go with that, when was the last time a zerg won in the early game from a ling runby in ZvP? If the protoss doesnt wall.. maybe... but that is the fault of the protoss not the zerg. I remember a time in BW where a protoss had to wall against zerg too. I dont know if it was like that near the end, but it was when I played.
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
Oh you mean the highest caliber protoss that beat all of the highest caliber zerg in the WCS korean nationals? Where all but 1 zerg was knocked out by the RO8 (7 protoss 1 zerg in RO8)? Then WCS asia the same thing happened again with 6 protoss and 2 zerg?
The fact is, the game is actually essentially balanced. Mothership needs tweaking and as a result BL's would too, but everything else is golden.
Everyone knows that WCS asia was stacked with protoss. You are saying 6p and 2z in asia? Let's look who realistically had any chance of getting anywhere in that tournament: P: Seed, Parting, Creator, Squirtle, Rain, Liquid'Hero, hero T: no one Z: Curious, Roro
That must be why the top 8 were 6p and 2z. WCS korea was basically the same. There were no good terrans, and very few good zerg, and a ton of good protoss. Honestly, the game is balanced because protoss/terran win so often with 2/3 base pseudo-allins. And I think that BLs are not the big problem for late game XvZ, but its the infestor. In fact, BLs are very weak if you can actually attack them.
I'd struggle to believe this post came from anyone in GM leagues, let alone a professional gamer, honestly.
This is not only incredibly embarassing for you, but a set of some of the most ridiculous suggestions I've ever read on this forum regard balance changes.
In fact, if this was anyone but a pro-gamer, this thread would be instantly closed 100% for balance whining, I'm honestly shocked this hasn't been yet.
Absouloutly agree.
A timer on spawning pool, (10 pool latest it can be) So I can always nexus first. Make the pylon raduis bigger I have trouble warping in late game. Nerf infestor to the ground, its good unit. Creep spread too good I can't have free map control. I can't send 1 probe out and get a full scout of thier base because the zerg has lings outside. Zerg has too many spines and i can't kill him!
Disgusting. Makes me feel sick.
in that case i want a timer on forge so i can go 3 base without getting cannoned
creep is worthless agaisnt toss, there first push clears it all out then you have nothing impossible to push it past mid field unless you have your army babysitting it
i cant send out one ling to scout cause you have a wall
Well I like lategame PvZ, but right now it mostly feels that the Zerg has no idea what to do unless you try to Vortex them. Some more intelligent unit use by Protoss and Zerg would be in trouble, but its not like they could adapt. I am rather interested to see when the current PvZ lategame changes, but thanks to HotS beta many don't see motivated to think about new stuff. Other then that I want Fungal to only slow a unit by 99.9%, so commands like targetfire aren't broken. It is easier to just press S instead of giving out 20 new commands every fungal. The only annoyance I have with Fungal is that it selects my units and presses S. Mass mind control sucks.
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
Oh you mean the highest caliber protoss that beat all of the highest caliber zerg in the WCS korean nationals? Where all but 1 zerg was knocked out by the RO8 (7 protoss 1 zerg in RO8)? Then WCS asia the same thing happened again with 6 protoss and 2 zerg?
The fact is, the game is actually essentially balanced. Mothership needs tweaking and as a result BL's would too, but everything else is golden.
Everyone knows that WCS asia was stacked with protoss. You are saying 6p and 2z in asia? Let's look who realistically had any chance of getting anywhere in that tournament: P: Seed, Parting, Creator, Squirtle, Rain, Liquid'Hero, hero T: no one Z: Curious, Roro
That must be why the top 8 were 6p and 2z. WCS korea was basically the same. There were no good terrans, and very few good zerg, and a ton of good protoss. Honestly, the game is balanced because protoss/terran win so often with 2/3 base pseudo-allins. And I think that BLs are not the big problem for late game XvZ, but its the infestor. In fact, BLs are very weak if you can actually attack them.
WCS korea zergs that participated (that had a chance): 4B Coca Curious Leenock Yugioh Soulkey Roro Jaedong
Yea, those guys all suck. Which is why Miya and Roro were the only ones that made it through.
EDIT: And Hyun was knocked out in the qualifiers even.
it's not like sase was suggesting that all those changes should go through or that other nerfs/buffs shouldn't be implemented on top of that. we all know he's a protoss player, of course it's biased, but it's still valuable and constructive feedback.
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
RoRo and curious are much weaker? lol. can't believe we have stuffs like this.
I was speaking in reference to the other Asian countries players. During WCS Korea Protoss was strong. During WCS Asia you could clearly see that the Koreans (most of them that just HAPPENED to be Protoss) were much much much stronger than everyone else. Even then......did Curious and Roro not qualify? Exactly. Only Korean that didn't was Miya and he really isn't as strong as the others.
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
Oh you mean the highest caliber protoss that beat all of the highest caliber zerg in the WCS korean nationals? Where all but 1 zerg was knocked out by the RO8 (7 protoss 1 zerg in RO8)? Then WCS asia the same thing happened again with 6 protoss and 2 zerg?
The fact is, the game is actually essentially balanced. Mothership needs tweaking and as a result BL's would too, but everything else is golden.
Everyone knows that WCS asia was stacked with protoss. You are saying 6p and 2z in asia? Let's look who realistically had any chance of getting anywhere in that tournament: P: Seed, Parting, Creator, Squirtle, Rain, Liquid'Hero, hero T: no one Z: Curious, Roro
That must be why the top 8 were 6p and 2z. WCS korea was basically the same. There were no good terrans, and very few good zerg, and a ton of good protoss. Honestly, the game is balanced because protoss/terran win so often with 2/3 base pseudo-allins. And I think that BLs are not the big problem for late game XvZ, but its the infestor. In fact, BLs are very weak if you can actually attack them.
There were plenty of good Terrans and Zergs in WCS Korea, they all got eliminated by the Protoss. It started with 12 Zerg, 9 Terran and 11 Protoss and ended with 7 Protoss in top 8.
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
RoRo and curious are much weaker? lol. can't believe we have stuffs like this.
I was speaking in reference to the other Asian countries players. During WCS Korea Protoss was strong. During WCS Asia you could clearly see that the Koreans (most of them that just HAPPENED to be Protoss) were much much much stronger than everyone else. Even then......did Curious and Roro not qualify? Exactly. Only Korean that didn't was Miya and he really isn't as strong as the others.
Most of them just happened to be protoss because the top 8 of WCS kr was 7 toss and 1 zerg. Toss dominated WCS korea and probably will win in china.
reading the part about making fungals not be castable ontop of one another gave me a interesting idea on a fix - perhaps this could be remedied by blizzard putting in place a diminishing returns system, so the first fungal might lock units in place for the full duration (4seconds) and each subsequent one would lock units in place for half the time of the previous fungal growth with units only taking damage whilst they are standing beneath the FG. That way, players are encouraged not to spam it because doing so would trigger the DR's count too quickly, and also involve increase the skill cap use by lining them up perfectly on the timing (think early game sentry ramp defense timing the forcefields perfectly to save energy).
Other than this, i second removing the mothership, as much fun as it is, winning late game ZvP is balanced around it, because if you had it in the game and the late game was balanced without it, toss would just get it and be OP, and playing late game without it as toss right now makes it nearly impossible to win. Having their is just way too coin flippy, you play you're ass off to get to the late game and flip then the game ends with a coin flip, when you couldve just done an all in and felt the same way about the result
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
RoRo and curious are much weaker? lol. can't believe we have stuffs like this.
I was speaking in reference to the other Asian countries players. During WCS Korea Protoss was strong. During WCS Asia you could clearly see that the Koreans (most of them that just HAPPENED to be Protoss) were much much much stronger than everyone else. Even then......did Curious and Roro not qualify? Exactly. Only Korean that didn't was Miya and he really isn't as strong as the others.
You are using the argument during the terran OP era where they said most top pros play terran. Its stupid how people seem to think that most top players just happened to be playing a particular race when win rates are huge indication that protoss right now is doing well if not better then zergs and the racial balance in tournaments are proving that toss is more then capable of standing their ground.
On October 19 2012 14:53 Skelith wrote: *Neutral parasite on mothership means game over. Make it impossible to neutral parasite Mothership. But yeah, I rather see the mothership removed.
Okay I stoped reading after this. Or maybe make neural melee range Mr. Sase?
I laughed when he called it neutral parasite, proves how much he knows about zerg right there
Everything is so so, except infestors, they really need to change that unit.. T.T can't even attack into a zerg that has 10 infestors, siege hoping would take hours and then they have ultras or brood lords and again you gonna tech switch to adapt to that... Zerg feels like Terran playing mech, just defend and sit, and if you already know how to defend then winning game is ezpz... ^.^
This is something that a) belongs to blog section b) coming from a professional player it sure as hell felt like a big old balance whine.
You should have taken a break after 12 hours of gaming, get some sleep and then make a well thought out post where you at least put some more motivation to all the balance suggestions you have.
Although many of your ideas are good right now it was a list of balance whine.
On October 19 2012 14:53 Skelith wrote: *Neutral parasite on mothership means game over. Make it impossible to neutral parasite Mothership. But yeah, I rather see the mothership removed.
Okay I stoped reading after this. Or maybe make neural melee range Mr. Sase?
On October 19 2012 14:57 papaz wrote: This is something that a) belongs to blog section b) coming from a professional player it sure as hell felt like a big old balance whine.
You should have taken a break after 12 hours of gaming, get some sleep and then make a well thought out post where you at least put some more motivation to all the balance suggestions you have.
Although many of your ideas are good right now it was a list of balance whine.
What's better then a whine? a dime. :D Okay he did say its 99 cents but fuck it its funny.
On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate.
You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
RoRo and curious are much weaker? lol. can't believe we have stuffs like this.
I was speaking in reference to the other Asian countries players. During WCS Korea Protoss was strong. During WCS Asia you could clearly see that the Koreans (most of them that just HAPPENED to be Protoss) were much much much stronger than everyone else. Even then......did Curious and Roro not qualify? Exactly. Only Korean that didn't was Miya and he really isn't as strong as the others.
You are using the argument during the terran OP era where they said most top pros play terran. Its stupid how people seem to think that most top players just happened to be playing a particular race when win rates are huge indication that protoss right now is doing well if not better then zergs and the racial balance in tournaments are proving that toss is more then capable of standing their ground.
That isn't even close to the same argument. I am not saying Protoss players are better.....I am saying THOSE Protoss players were head and shoulders better than all of the other players (of course with a few exceptions of high caliber zergs that could have taken it as well).
he said e hasn't played a game of hots and he wants to change things.....come on man play some hots games then we'll talk. i respect his status in the community and his skill as a player but....if i wanted oppinions i;d read any other thread.
Sadly, Sase's post is terrible. Little more than a long and rambling whine. I expected more from a player who is so meticulous and intellectual in his approach to Protoss play. The saving grace is that he wrote that after 12 hours of laddering. A time when anyone's brain turns to mush. Sase, you may have been better served just turning off your PC, unwinding, and going to bed.
I always enjoy watching your streams by the way. Such good Protoss play. Good luck!
An option to remove 6 pool from the game is just have a requirement to build an overlord before pool.
The same way that you have to build a pylon before gateway and supply depot before barracks. It's as simple as that and I'm not sure why Blizzard hasn't implemented this yet given their change with the supply depot and the barracks to help with reapers. There shouldn't be a strategy that can counter build orders without being able to have a chance to scout it yet or else long enough map distance that you can still manage something before the lings arrive.
I feel like he just listed out the problems that Protoss is struggling with instead of making serious balance changes.
Most of these seem like little edges that the other races have over Protoss and is not a BIG issue, just like Protoss has advantages in certain areas that the other races don't have.
Everyone has stuff they want to change about the game, but it's unfair to just suggest changes that only benefit your own race without considering the other two.
On October 19 2012 15:41 shazbot wrote: An option to remove 6 pool from the game is just have a requirement to build an overlord before pool.
The same way that you have to build a pylon before gateway and supply depot before barracks. It's as simple as that and I'm not sure why Blizzard hasn't implemented this yet given their change with the supply depot and the barracks to help with reapers. There shouldn't be a strategy that can counter build orders without being able to have a chance to scout it yet or else long enough map distance that you can still manage something before the lings arrive.
Agreed with this, is 2BB was nerfed into oblivion with the depot before barracks requirement, then overlord before pool should be fair game as well.
But then again, something about the classic adrenaline rush of watching the 4th drone morph into a spawning pool is magical.
All of the people saying, " These are too many nerfs" or whatever are missing what he said at the end. He is suggesting options. Not one answer for all problems. It means they could pick and choose what works best and what Ideas are awful. I personally like the 'flower' idea for pylons. It makes them similar to Warp prisms and allows for more opportunity for Protoss to toy with things. And when the best players are able to "play around with things" really cool stuff tends to come out of it.
The amount of disrespect T-L'ers have for pros nowadays is saddening... I dont even understand Why any one would try to come here and even debate about anything with you douche bags!
Make a tab in hotkeys called priority units or something. You should be able to choose yourself what order you want to have your units. For example if you have templars and sentries in the same army you should be able if you want to have sentries or templars first. Hope you understand, like if you only have medivacs and marauders in the tab you have to press tab T to stim, should be able to choose if you want it like this or if u want marauders first so you don't have to tab.
this is so needed. they could implement it like right now pls.
Just goes to show you that pros are people too - and not above biased whines about their race. I feel for Blizzard having to consult with these guys for HoTS.
On October 19 2012 16:31 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Just goes to show you that pros are people too - and not above biased whines about their race. I feel for Blizzard having to consult with these guys for HoTS.
Whatever man, im just saying, in what other discipline do you have direct access to pro or semi pros who come in and try to debate?
When i see that the third post is something random bloke complaining 'cause this isnt in the blog section, I just ask myself why most people dont keep their fuckin mouth shut when all that comes out is useless crap.
EDIT: im no Sase fan btw, this is a general rant about most T-L'ers and their attitude in general in the sc2 forum.
A lot of people may agree what Sase suggesting, but there is one thing to consider, there are other matchups, and changing PvZ hardcore will have pretty big implications elsewhere, which are also supposed to be revised.
AFAIK, ZvT is pretty balanced match up, but changing some things like infestor will have real impact. For example, removing chain fungling is asking for marines splits to easily get rid of infestors. However, infestors arent fine. Far from it. As a lot of other prominent people suggested, imo fungle should slow movespeed by a lot, instead of rooting you in place.
On October 19 2012 13:57 ilbh wrote: you may be right about some issues in PvZ, but your suggestions are really bad. you want to nerf the shit out of zerg and that's it. lol and some of the balance suggestions you made are just non sense, there are a lot of things to consider when you make any kind of change in the game. it seems more like a QQ thread then a thought out suggestion list, even if you have some reasoning behind your complaints.
this is anything but a QQ thread, he explained why zerg was too strong, then addressed changes he would like to see and gave reasons for them and talked about how he thought the changes would affect the game.
You obviously dont know what QQ is, or just have something against sase and want to flame him
The moment he said put a timer on spawning pool during 1:20 or whatever the time for 10 pool is. I already wasn't taking him seriously.
Unless you agreed that a timer should be put on spawning pool?LOL
Sase is clearly complaining. Probably he just lost to a 6-pool recently.
he kind of has a point, protoss can react perfectly to a 6pool, scout it off their 9scout and react 100% correctly and they wont be ahead at all. its impossible for a zerg to be behind after a 6pool if they play it right. this shouldnt happen. If you scout an all in and react perfectly, you should win 100% of the time, instead protoss win 50% of the time.
On October 19 2012 13:57 ilbh wrote: you may be right about some issues in PvZ, but your suggestions are really bad. you want to nerf the shit out of zerg and that's it. lol and some of the balance suggestions you made are just non sense, there are a lot of things to consider when you make any kind of change in the game. it seems more like a QQ thread then a thought out suggestion list, even if you have some reasoning behind your complaints.
this is anything but a QQ thread, he explained why zerg was too strong, then addressed changes he would like to see and gave reasons for them and talked about how he thought the changes would affect the game.
You obviously dont know what QQ is, or just have something against sase and want to flame him
The moment he said put a timer on spawning pool during 1:20 or whatever the time for 10 pool is. I already wasn't taking him seriously.
Unless you agreed that a timer should be put on spawning pool?LOL
Sase is clearly complaining. Probably he just lost to a 6-pool recently.
he kind of has a point, protoss can react perfectly to a 6pool, scout it off their 9scout and react 100% correctly and they wont be ahead at all. its impossible for a zerg to be behind after a 6pool if they play it right. this shouldnt happen. If you scout an all in and react perfectly, you should win 100% of the time, instead protoss win 50% of the time.
I disagree on this point. Toss can cannon rush third or even natural and just cancel if it goes the wrong way. In that case toss didnt loose ANYTHING. An all in is an all in, If you go nexus into forge, thats a risk, if you go gateway expand naniwa style then it is a free win.
On October 19 2012 16:31 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Just goes to show you that pros are people too - and not above biased whines about their race. I feel for Blizzard having to consult with these guys for HoTS.
Why would you feel sorry for Blizzard when someone makes a polite post about possible changes? What you should feel bad about is the gazillion idiots writing not much more than one line posts basically saying "BLIZZARD SUCKS!" everyone they do something these days. Kind of how you should feel sorry for sase when reading yours.
Did he just complain about pvz, as far as I've seen pvz is 10 times more balanced than tvz or tvp, havent seen a single protoss or zerg mention pvt as his hardest matchup in past 8 months, thats something to worry about in itself.
Not saying that pvz wouldnt look ridiculous aswell.
On October 19 2012 16:31 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Just goes to show you that pros are people too - and not above biased whines about their race. I feel for Blizzard having to consult with these guys for HoTS.
Whatever man, im just saying, in what other discipline do you have direct access to pro or semi pros who come in and try to debate?
When i see that the third post is something random bloke complaining 'cause this isnt in the blog section, I just ask myself why most people dont keep their fuckin mouth shut when all that comes out is useless crap.
It's good that the pro's want to share with us their views no argument there. But you seem to be suggesting that we can't disagree with them. Just because the post is from a pro, doesn't mean we must take their suggestions as automatically good. Pros are good and their opinions should rank higher than the average forum user sure. However Pro's are not infallible, and nor are they able to completely remove their own biases (they're human after all).
If SaSe had come and made a well thought out post, looking at the PvZ matchup from both angles and making some reasonable suggestions of nerfs and buffs (both would be needed), then fine. We could still disagree with him, but he'd get deserved respect.
What SaSe seemed to do though, was after a long day playing (probably tired), decided to list all the things he'd lost to recently that we was having trouble with as a player, called them balance issues and then decided on a (sometimes ridiculous) nerf to zerg to 'fix' it. He didn't even make the effort to put his nerfs into consistent packages (you should see some of the posts in the HoTS forum that do this), merely saying "I don't want them all, just some", which is useless because different ones work differently together.
If I lined this post up against any random balance whine from a random TL user and removed the names, I doubt you could pick out the one from the pro player. Yes being a pro gives you special reverence. No, it doesn't excuse you for posting dumb stuff. That's why this belongs in blogs.
On October 19 2012 13:57 ilbh wrote: you may be right about some issues in PvZ, but your suggestions are really bad. you want to nerf the shit out of zerg and that's it. lol and some of the balance suggestions you made are just non sense, there are a lot of things to consider when you make any kind of change in the game. it seems more like a QQ thread then a thought out suggestion list, even if you have some reasoning behind your complaints.
this is anything but a QQ thread, he explained why zerg was too strong, then addressed changes he would like to see and gave reasons for them and talked about how he thought the changes would affect the game.
You obviously dont know what QQ is, or just have something against sase and want to flame him
The moment he said put a timer on spawning pool during 1:20 or whatever the time for 10 pool is. I already wasn't taking him seriously.
Unless you agreed that a timer should be put on spawning pool?LOL
Sase is clearly complaining. Probably he just lost to a 6-pool recently.
he kind of has a point, protoss can react perfectly to a 6pool, scout it off their 9scout and react 100% correctly and they wont be ahead at all. its impossible for a zerg to be behind after a 6pool if they play it right. this shouldnt happen. If you scout an all in and react perfectly, you should win 100% of the time, instead protoss win 50% of the time.
so god just gifts you the right to expand unsafely? you are gambling the second you put that pylon down before proper scouting. when you gamble, there needs to be a downside to losing. further more, both protoss and terran have an insane ability to recover from an "all-in" (when both giving and receiving...teehee) and drag the game out until zerg dies of boredom. the thing that feels most wrong about all of this shit is that if i were to fail any "all-in" at any point there is very little chance for me to ever recover unless a royal fuck up is made.
i hate to be dick but people have zero clue about that which they speak. it's really more just about saying things to get attention than it is to actually have them mean things around here.
To me this looks good. He said that he don't want ALL of these to be changed. He just gave ideas what could be done different ( like if there is x,y,z things that sase don't agree with in pvz then blizzard could change z or maybe even x and z then y might not be so imba or pvz would change so much that y is not so relevant.) I liked most of the ideas i think they have potential
On October 19 2012 16:26 Douillos wrote: The amount of disrespect T-L'ers have for pros nowadays is saddening... I dont even understand Why any one would try to come here and even debate about anything with you douche bags!
Or perhaps they are honest, not hypocrites?
Many TLers show respect to pros. Its not about the pros. Its about the content. Sase's post here looks like a complaint regarding protoss, thats why people dont like it.
On October 19 2012 16:31 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Just goes to show you that pros are people too - and not above biased whines about their race. I feel for Blizzard having to consult with these guys for HoTS.
Whatever man, im just saying, in what other discipline do you have direct access to pro or semi pros who come in and try to debate?
When i see that the third post is something random bloke complaining 'cause this isnt in the blog section, I just ask myself why most people dont keep their fuckin mouth shut when all that comes out is useless crap.
It's good that the pro's want to share with us their views no argument there. But you seem to be suggesting that we can't disagree with them. Just because the post is from a pro, doesn't mean we must take their suggestions as automatically good. Pros are good and their opinions should rank higher than the average forum user sure. However Pro's are not infallible, and nor are they able to completely remove their own biases (they're human after all).
If SaSe had come and made a well thought out post, looking at the PvZ matchup from both angles and making some reasonable suggestions of nerfs and buffs (both would be needed), then fine. We could still disagree with him, but he'd get deserved respect.
What SaSe seemed to do though, was after a long day playing (probably tired), decided to list all the things he'd lost to recently that we was having trouble with as a player, called them balance issues and then decided on a (sometimes ridiculous) nerf to zerg to 'fix' it. He didn't even make the effort to put his nerfs into consistent packages (you should see some of the posts in the HoTS forum that do this), merely saying "I don't want them all, just some", which is useless because different ones work differently together.
If I lined this post up against any random balance whine from a random TL user and removed the names, I doubt you could pick out the one from the pro player. Yes being a pro gives you special reverence. No, it doesn't excuse you for posting dumb stuff. That's why this belongs in blogs.
It's just a question of respect and the wording you use. But hey man, whatever, I m avoiding anything else than the news on this site from now on (like on all sites really). Im not gonna change anything by bitching about how people act on TL nowadays, so im just gonna stop loosing my time!
On October 19 2012 16:31 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Just goes to show you that pros are people too - and not above biased whines about their race. I feel for Blizzard having to consult with these guys for HoTS.
Why would you feel sorry for Blizzard when someone makes a polite post about possible changes? What you should feel bad about is the gazillion idiots writing not much more than one line posts basically saying "BLIZZARD SUCKS!" everyone they do something these days. Kind of how you should feel sorry for sase when reading yours.
The post was polite, but it was far high quality. A pro gamer is not a sacred cow. If one makes a bad post, I'm going to call them out on it.
I do feel sorry for Blizzard when people say they suck for little reason. I stay away from any 'map' related thread for this exact reason.
On October 19 2012 16:26 Douillos wrote: The amount of disrespect T-L'ers have for pros nowadays is saddening... I dont even understand Why any one would try to come here and even debate about anything with you douche bags!
Or perhaps they are honest, not hypocrites?
Many TLers show respect to pros. Its not about the pros. Its about the content. Sase's post here looks like a complaint regarding protoss, thats why people dont like it.
Its not about the person its the content.
Go through a few of the pages in this thread and then tell me its about the content only
From what I see, PvZ has a few units that together make the matchup pretty boring. The Roach, the Sentry, the Colossus, the Infestor, the Broodlord, and the Mothership join together to create a dull, coin-flippy, and non-variable game flow. The Roach and the Sentry create an awful early-game dynamic where either race can perform ridiculously strong all-ins or timing attacks (Immortal/Sentry all-in, 12 minute Roach max) and at the same time struggle to hold off similar play from the other race. The fast production of the Roach and its high movement speed prevent Protoss from effectively putting on pressure (remember the 4gate +1?), and the nature of Forcefields turn any Zerg poke into a sacrificial offering. The Colossus is insanely effective against any Zerg midgame play that does not involve Mutalisks, and prevents both races from doing much of a move-out because the Zerg will get slaughtered and the Protoss doesn't want to risk getting flanked. The Infestor effectively prevents any kind of non-deathball play, because any units out of place will just get Fungaled and slaughtered by the insanely cost-effective Roach squad or possibly by a set of Infested Terrans. Finally, if the Zerg player gets an acceptable composition of Broodlords, Infestors, and Roaches with maybe a few Corruptors if the Protoss goes for Carriers, there is literally only ONE answer that Protoss has: Archon Toilet. Nothing else trades at a remotely acceptable rate. This often means that 20-30 minutes of build-up all come down to one spell. If it lands, Protoss wins. If it doesn't, Protoss loses. AWFUL.
I don't claim to know how to solve this. It's incredibly tough to wriggle out of, because the units are so central to how each race plays. Hopefully the Viper and Tempest solve these problems acceptably.
For my part, I really think balancing end game comes down to the Mothership being way more powerful.
That would force Z to attack during the window between broods coming out and the M-ship coming out, and once the M ship would be out Toss would be at an advantage, lets say something that could completely nullify the spines (I think Sase has a good point with Zergs making 100000 spines, thats also what makes the matchup so boring to watch IMO).
On October 19 2012 12:19 eleaf wrote: The key idea is pretty simple. Actually all the pros or the normal players agree with it: 1. make spell castors less powerful, we dont want to play wc3 rpg games in Starcraft. Mothership is a joke. FF is a joke. Fungal is a joke. 2. infestors. How many times have to say this, infestors>everything except infestors. Starcraft 2 now is a game to see who can make most infestors and this is not a joke. 3. cool unit are not fun. Balance around the cool units are the most stupid idea and unfortunately, Blizzard have to this coz there is always a cost for being cool.
Ever look at brood war? Defilers were one of the most powerful units in the game. Science vessels were so good against zerg, and templars/arbiters were insanely strong.
Dude, both defilers and Science vessels required like 200% more micro then both infestor / Sentry etc. Defilers and Science vessels was only really good if your control was excellent. Everyone can use infestor etc..
Formatted the OP slightly as people didn't seem to understand that this is ideas. SaSe didn't want everything changed. But it's obvious that certain matchups are crap at the moment and giving ideas is a step in the right direction..
On October 19 2012 11:38 SaSe wrote: So wanted to do this for some time but been practising alot and I'm in general really lazy to write stuff but here we go.
Right now I feel the biggest problem is the pvz matchup. There is so many ways toss can lose from the early game to late game by really really small mistakes such as 6pool and random ling runbys in the start. I don't really mind early pools. I don't mind ling runbys either, as a professional player I should not let stuff like this happen.
The thing I feel is really unfair though is that if a zerg makes one of these, they will never be extremly far behind. If toss goes for a double proxy, the only chance it will work is if zerg makes hatch first, and then yet it's not a freewin like it is for zerg if toss makes nex first vs 6 pool. Difference is if toss fails double proxy it's over.
My suggestion would be to put a timer on spawning pool, like you can only build it after 1:20 or whatever the time for 10 pool is. Then mindgames would still be possible since a 10pool crush a nexus first noscout. The only other option I would see to make this fair is to make the rampblockers a building with 0 vision you can select and salvage(your own one only of course) if you so would like to(for no money lol).
Then zerg wouldn't have to worry about double bunker and toss could salvage it and make a cute little wall so we actually get ahead vs a 9 probe scouted 6pool.
Terran can salvage bunkers, lift buildings, up down supply depots, cruise around and stuff. Zerg sees everything and moves faster. What does toss do? Nothing. Random ling runbys... The most annoying thing with this I see is even if you have a probe in the choke or a warping in unit, lings still get through.
This has been an issue for the 2 years I played the game and yet has nothing been done. A probe on hold should be a probe on hold. At least that makes sense to me.
Back to what I first said, what can toss do. Regen shield woooohooooo. How about pylons got a feature similar to terrans supply depots. They could put up some psi between itself and another building(1 hex) and no units can pass through. Would open the possibility for toss to have more than one hole in the walls vs zerg and therefore make toss more mobile in your own base. Also would free up a little supply.
One thing I never understood is when they buffed queen range and overlord speed so zergs can scout easier. How is toss supposed to scout. A good zerg will always have 2 lings outside toss base, the probe will be hurt when it arrives at zerg base. Queen will kill it easily. Toss will never be able to scout if zerg makes gas or no gas and therefor toss has never any change of knowing if zerg is doing a late allin which hits before warpgate or not.
This is completely impossible, believe me, I tried alot. I don't know how to address this issue, overlords move way too fast. They can hide in the air and above highgrounds, it should be enough imo. Or just give queen same range as before, but maybe that would crush the tvz matchup. I guess I can send 3 probes if I wanna scout...
Ok lets move to lategame. Here is where I tried most lately and failed most aswell, tried almost every unit composition. There is some good ones. But it's extremly hard and it doesn't matter how good toss plays in most cases. If zerg doesnt F up badly, they will win.
I think this is mainly because of one reason. It's not infestors, it's not broodlords. Surprise surprise. It's because spines and spores can move.
It doesn't matter if they can move outside creep or not. Just that they can move is really bugged imo. The new style of koreans is making 100 drones, 20 spines before toss pushes out and just wait with infestors. Then there is no way toss can attack into it(because infestors will lock your army if u do and keep doing so until it's dead).
Later they just spend all gas on a few broodlords, alot of infestors and all minerals on drones/spines/spores. They wont even build a few lings to harass with lol. Spread creep until they are in range of toss base and then toss is forced a fight vs the extra 100 supply 0 food army. Don't forget infested terrans and broodlings are 0 supply aswell.
I don't know what would be the best option to fix the pvz lategame but I can write a list of things that could be tweaked. But honestly static defense is supposed to be static defense. Not 0 supply attack units.
Maybe give them a 15 range from where they can move where you first built them. I will start my list by the buggiest thing in the whole game.
Remove mothership. We are not playing wc3. We are not playing dota neither any other moba game either. It's just silly to have something you can just have one of. It's way too much swings to have a unit like this. Good vortex vs bad vortex vs no vortex vs reversed vortex. It's like playing World Series of Poker with jokers. Guess only Darvin Moon would like that. To balance starcraft a very important thing is to remove randomness as much as possible and this is by far the biggest random factor in the game.
Infestor needs some tweaking and this is what I have been thinking about for the last days. How to fix this little unit. It's good against everything and you can't really overmake them in the same way you can overmake templars, templars will never be effective when you reach a certain amount. To me the most unfair thing is infestors can move under the ground without even an upgrade for moving. They are a spellcaster(maybe not but they got abilities or how to say). They always go in last in fights. If the zerg lose the fight they just burrow and dig their way home to the safety line. Even if you got blink you still need an observer and since the observer is much slower than a burrowed infestor you are unlikely to catch up. So first point, remove burrow movement, it doesn't make sense.
Infestors can throw infested terrans while underground. Doesn't really make sense to me either.
Infested terrans and broodlings gets upgrades. It's really powerful for 0 food units.
Infested terrans in eggs are being ignored if other units are possible to attack, this is an AI bug that needs to be fixed asap.
Infested terrans can attack air. Makes toss air pretty useless. Could remove this.
You can't fungel something that's fungeled. This way stalkers would be able to blink away and not be stuck forever.
Make infestors smaller so it requires more micro vs storm and collosus.
Fungal doesn't reveal dts, yet they hold them in place and deal damage.
Give infestor a HIVE upgrage for moving underground. Now they just need burrow and they get to move for free.
You cant move while being fungled. Alot of people say this is the issue with infestors, I don't really agree, but sure it's annoying.
Neutral parasite on mothership means game over. Make it impossible to neutral parasite Mothership. But yeah, I rather see the mothership removed.
Creep gives way too much vision, speed is pretty extreme too. But let's focus on the vision. It's way very hard to get a warpprism or a sneaky zealot flank into the zergs exp late game because of the vision creep gives. I would suggest creep tumours have a vision of 2,5 or something. Then zerg would have to pay more attention to what's going on.
Make pylon like a flower, when it's complete you get your supply and psi, but you can't warp in stuff for 10 seconds.
Give pylon the old range. You said it was made shorter to stop 4gate. My suggestion is way better with the flowerpylon. I get attention disorder every lategame I wanna warp in 20 units and the range is not enough. We can't warp at ramps anymore. We can't warp on buildings or units and in Hots we can't warp up ramps either.. if you don't want us to warp stuff just remove warpgate Could also choose to make units which is warping in really small and become bigger during the process it's warping.
Phoenix could me removed or make them armored. They make pvp too random right now. Maybe a spell which makes static defense inable to attack, like in bw
AI attack range should be like 8 when not on hold. I hate when I get dropped and I feel it's really close to the units. Then I go back micro the big battle. After fight I look back at base and my units are just standing there watching the marnies drinking crystal after the 50th probekill. Alternative make the warping in rally point attack move.
I am not saying all these things are needed. For infestor probably one or two.
Make a tab in hotkeys called priority units or something. You should be able to choose yourself what order you want to have your units.
For example if you have templars and sentries in the same army you should be able if you want to have sentries or templars first.
Hope you understand, like if you only have medivacs and marauders in the tab you have to press tab T to stim, should be able to choose if you want it like this or if u want marauders first so you don't have to tab.
I am really tired after playing 12 hours and writing this for 2 hours so I will try to cut it down but I really wanna share some opinions on HOTS aswell.
I never played a single game of HOTS but I read a little about it. Today I read they wanna change the oracle. I thought alot about how to make it a cool and skillful unit. Back when they introduced it in the Alfa I remember artosis talking about how much multitasking it would take.
Back then until I saw someone stream in the beta I thought entomb disabled ONE mineral patch. Maybe make entomb 5 or 10 energy to cost and disable one mineral patch. This way it will require alot more multitasking, it will lose more shield and u might not have time to entomb all fields before it takes damage. It has to something you can shiftclick though.
Also I saw you can make tempest without fleet beacon. This made me think then maybe the oracle should be the new arbiter kinda. You are looking for new spells, I will give you some cool ideas.
The oracle costs x/y(I would suggest something like 125/250) and takes 3 supply and can now attack(not something strong, just something which makes it able to defend itself vs 1 muta or so)
The oracle can can cloak one unit OR building for 45 seconds for 50 energy. This would be really awesome to use on warp prism or hts. Also would good against nexus snipes which happens so easily. Would it be imba? Doubt it when u have to make a fleetbeacon lol.
The oracle can recall 8-12 units(has to be tweaked I guess) for 100 energy. Would make toss really mobile lategame compared to now and very fun to play instead of trying to get to a deathball. Would also be cool so we might see a minimap full of stuff like we did in good old BW in the progames where stuff was going on everywhere.
The oracle instant dispells enemy summoned units such as broodlings/infested terrans or instant regens 50 shields in a radius of 2,5 for 75 energy.
The Oracle can reveal the position of the opponents units all over the map for 5 seconds in the same way terran sensor tower does. You don't see what units, just where they are. 50 energy.
3 hours now. Really really sleepy, sorry, wanna write so much more
Give nexus ability to attack within + reveal within 10 range for 50 energy. And remove mothership core! I didn't comment much on terran because I didn't read much about it in Hots.
Would be happy to discuss more. Would be happy to talk to Blizzard. I might see whiny but I think I am pretty objective. I only play the game because I love to play it. I wanna win by skill, speed and cleverness, not by imba.
Thank you for reading Best Regads, Kim 'Sase' Hammar
On October 19 2012 11:38 SaSe wrote: *Infested terrans can attack air. Makes toss air pretty useless. Could remove this.
I think this is the best of SaSes suggestions, and the only thing needed. Not necessarily removing, but tweaking infestor AA damage would solve a lot of problems zvp lategame. Maybe just reducing the range from 5 to 3.
dont agree with everything but the point with mass spines/spores and infested terrans really is true. it is incredible how many free units(0 supply units) zerg can add to an already super powerful lategame army. it is like protoss hallucination doing damage or something. 1 spine beats 2 stalker and 2 infested terrans(50 energy!!!) already beat 1 stalker(no upgrades/micro). when a zerg just spamms 20-30 infested terrans(energy of 3-4 infestors) beneath their broodlords and maybe even brought some spines with him it is pretty obvious why stalker just evaporate if they blink towards the broodlords.
I like the idea of fungal not stacking, it would definitely raise the skill cap to chain fungal while giving the opponent more chances to save their units.
ARENT YOU tired of INFESTORS every map,every game,every match-up,ZvZ,ZvP,ZvT.
I remember back in the days when blizzard investigated muta being op due to it being viable in every matchup. They said that if they see a unit being used too much they will nerf it?What happened blizz?
Infestors?They can harrass,they are probably the best defensive unit and thanks to infested terrans they can serve an offensive purpose pretty well
Sup bliz?
Yesterday i decided to watch Roro vs DRG. i was a bit late for the stream so when i actually turned it on i saw 22 infestors and 5 roaches against 10 roaches and 16 infestors. Everything was sitting still in green while infested terrans demolished the battlefield.
very interesting game,pretty micro intensive.
and zergs dominating eu ladder is pretty absurd for a long time now.
It's not infestors, it's not broodlords. Surprise surprise. It's because spines and spores can move. It doesn't matter if they can move outside creep or not. Just that they can move is really bugged imo. The new style of koreans is making 100 drones, 20 spines before toss pushes out and just wait with infestors.
Kind of contradicting yourself, since it's still the infestors that are broken and can root your units in spine range. A fix for a lot of ridiculousness in the game now would be to stop fungal from rooting for so long. Either make it a slow or root for like 2sec instead of ages. Or giving units that are fungalled like a 1 or 2 second immunity to fungal after the first one expires. Anyway, this same post can be written for TvZ. Infestors will eventually nerfed or "changed" eventually, it's just a matter of time.
On October 19 2012 17:53 SC2ShoWTimE wrote: dont agree with everything but the point with mass spines/spores and infested terrans really is true. it is incredible how many free units(0 supply units) zerg can add to an already super powerful lategame army. it is like protoss hallucination doing damage or something. 1 spine beats 2 stalker and 2 infested terrans(50 energy!!!) already beat 1 stalker(no upgrades/micro). when a zerg just spamms 20-30 infested terrans(energy of 3-4 infestors) beneath their broodlords and maybe even brought some spines with him it is pretty obvious why stalker just evaporate if they blink towards the broodlords.
Please notice that without IT and Spines, zerg get crushed by lategame protoss.
I've been playing a lot of hots, and everything you talk about before you start talking about lategame infestor Blord spinewalls is kinda dealt with with the MScore and stuff so i didnt really agree with any of that early pool nerfing or pylon hexing abilities.
in hots u cant warp up high ground anymore either so i dont think the pylon flower is necessary either.
i was watching nightend grilled on youtube and he mentioned that he thinks Blords should be 6 supply instead of 4 like every other tier 3 units, which i REALLY agree with, i think that would be great.
i like some of ur ideas for infestors such as a burrow movement upgrade, or no upgrades for broodlings/terrans since theyre all 0 supply units. i dunno if they're necessary tho but would be interesting to test out the balance of that.
i do agree with the spine and spores moving though. i think this is a big problem, and i initially thought that they let them do it because in the alpha of sc2 they were gonna let photon cannons move, and bunkers could be salvaged for 100% return. But now that theyve both been nerfed it might be interesting to see their movement get taken away aswell, although i dunno how it might affect zvt or zvz...
i also agree that its stupid to have a mothership unit that ur only allowed one of. but in hots i like the mothership core, its a staple unit in protoss right now as the cannon it puts on the nexus, and being able to recall ur army if its out of position vs a base race. is so good, and fixes a lot of flaws in weak protoss home defence that i think we suffer from in WOL
tl;dr: i think HotS changes and units will help deal with most of the problems you adress, and it will be unecessary to implement most of these changes you are suggesting, as HotS will have their own instead. Although i agree something is wrong with lategame PvZ infestor Broodlord Spine vs vortex. and i would like to see some changes to broods (6 supply) or infestors (spell nerfs) or spines (cant relocate), in the hots beta.
People that are complaining this is a whine post should read it more carefully. He is suggesting a number of changes, and think some of them could be implemented to fix the zvp match up. He is obviously writing from the protoss perspective, I think it's impossible to not be a bit biased to your race when it comes to balance discussions. That's why we need input from a lot of people when discussing balance, and this is just one input.
On October 19 2012 17:53 SC2ShoWTimE wrote: dont agree with everything but the point with mass spines/spores and infested terrans really is true. it is incredible how many free units(0 supply units) zerg can add to an already super powerful lategame army. it is like protoss hallucination doing damage or something. 1 spine beats 2 stalker and 2 infested terrans(50 energy!!!) already beat 1 stalker(no upgrades/micro). when a zerg just spamms 20-30 infested terrans(energy of 3-4 infestors) beneath their broodlords and maybe even brought some spines with him it is pretty obvious why stalker just evaporate if they blink towards the broodlords.
Please notice that without IT and Spines, zerg get crushed by lategame protoss.
Or without infestors in general zerg gets crushed by terran and toss. What people need to understand - nerfing the infestor means zerg needs buffs to compensate, just like if force field were removed protoss would need to be buffed to compensate (I give this example because that is how critical infestors are for zergs due to are other units being shit).
On October 19 2012 13:57 ilbh wrote: you may be right about some issues in PvZ, but your suggestions are really bad. you want to nerf the shit out of zerg and that's it. lol and some of the balance suggestions you made are just non sense, there are a lot of things to consider when you make any kind of change in the game. it seems more like a QQ thread then a thought out suggestion list, even if you have some reasoning behind your complaints.
this is anything but a QQ thread, he explained why zerg was too strong, then addressed changes he would like to see and gave reasons for them and talked about how he thought the changes would affect the game.
You obviously dont know what QQ is, or just have something against sase and want to flame him
The moment he said put a timer on spawning pool during 1:20 or whatever the time for 10 pool is. I already wasn't taking him seriously.
Unless you agreed that a timer should be put on spawning pool?LOL
Sase is clearly complaining. Probably he just lost to a 6-pool recently.
he kind of has a point, protoss can react perfectly to a 6pool, scout it off their 9scout and react 100% correctly and they wont be ahead at all. its impossible for a zerg to be behind after a 6pool if they play it right. this shouldnt happen. If you scout an all in and react perfectly, you should win 100% of the time, instead protoss win 50% of the time.
The thing about infestor is that it is a really effective and versatile unit. Let's talk about forcefields and storms for a bit, which have received a lot of complaints.
Forcefields only prevent from moving to a certain place. They will not lock you, neither will they damage you. Just prevent you to moving towards that one hex. Obviously you can surround the opponent's unit to make it immobile, but that costs a ton of energy. Forcefields also affect only ground units.
Storms, cause a lot of damage for a brief duration of time, but can be easily dodged and have quite a small area. Most of the times a storm only deals 20-50% damage of the full 80, as a smart player will not let his units just sit in a storm.
Fungal, on the other hand makes a clump of units 100% immobile, damages the units and affects air and ground. That is one really strong spell, and I think something needs to be done to it. Nothing drastic, but something small at least. Maybe less damage, or less duration, or more energy cost. 100 energy cost wouldn't seem ridiculous to me, not even 125. It is hard to say what is the right course of action, but that is why Blizz has the PTR patches: even if the change is bad they don't have to implement it.
I personally don't see infested terrans in any of their form a problem. They might be a bit powerful in some scenarios, but anything than a tiny nerf would feel unjustified to me.
I completely agree with SaSe that the mothership is a broken unit. The whole balance between protoss lategame armies and zerg lategame armies is gimped, and it results in gimmicky and unbalanced gameplay. The tempest could be the savior of lategame pvz, but we'll see.
Creep could be nerfed a tiny bit, but I don't think it is a huge issue. It is very strong if the zerg is an active creep spreader tho, and it feels a bit silly that the zerg can get massive vision while the toss can do virtually nothing, as the toss doesn't even have warpgates yet.
I 100% agree that spines are a problem. the fact that they can move and have such big range is very strong, and a good zerg is completely safe while teching vs any ground attack. I would suggest one of the following:
A) Spines have -1 range B) Spines don't do bonus damage vs armored.
Not sure if any of these would fix it, but something could definitely be done.
If SaSe gave 99 cents, I will give maybe 20. I am only a high master EU player after all.
SaSe, I think you show the problems well but your suggested solutions either are dirty hacks (e.g rampblocker), take away racial differences (e.g. static spines/spores) or create more problems.
SaSe makes some pretty good points, and I feel that PvZ needs to be changed up some as well, however infestors and spine walls is what makes zerg competent against protoss. Otherwise they'd just get rolled.
On October 19 2012 17:53 SC2ShoWTimE wrote: dont agree with everything but the point with mass spines/spores and infested terrans really is true. it is incredible how many free units(0 supply units) zerg can add to an already super powerful lategame army. it is like protoss hallucination doing damage or something. 1 spine beats 2 stalker and 2 infested terrans(50 energy!!!) already beat 1 stalker(no upgrades/micro). when a zerg just spamms 20-30 infested terrans(energy of 3-4 infestors) beneath their broodlords and maybe even brought some spines with him it is pretty obvious why stalker just evaporate if they blink towards the broodlords.
Please notice that without IT and Spines, zerg get crushed by lategame protoss.
Or without infestors in general zerg gets crushed by terran and toss. What people need to understand - nerfing the infestor means zerg needs buffs to compensate, just like if force field were removed protoss would need to be buffed to compensate (I give this example because that is how critical infestors are for zergs due to are other units being shit).
Which would be fine in my book, might open for more playstyles than just "fuck it go infestor"
What about a nerf on the slowling (speed,hp,attackdmg, whatever) and include whatever statnerf with metabolic boost making the slowling nerfed but the speedling remains untouched.
To me it seems that you above all want better scouting. You may not know it, because you don't seem to follow HotS, but currently Hallucination on the sentry will be an innate ability. Meaning you don't require an upgrade for it. So you can have a hallucinated phoenix on the field at like 7.30 after FFE and alot earlier if you are going for a gate expo. This would be a reliable form of scouting for protoss.
On October 19 2012 18:39 LeanMeanMacroMachine wrote: What about a nerf on the slowling (speed,hp,attackdmg, whatever) and include whatever statnerf with metabolic boost making the slowling nerfed but the speedling remains untouched.
Because 11/11 rax needs to be stronger. I'm for this change!
On October 19 2012 18:39 LeanMeanMacroMachine wrote: What about a nerf on the slowling (speed,hp,attackdmg, whatever) and include whatever statnerf with metabolic boost making the slowling nerfed but the speedling remains untouched.
Because 11/11 rax needs to be stronger. I'm for this change!
Its not really THAT strong if you react correctly (dont necessarily includes zerglings)...
All you're doing Sase is making balance suggestions and not very well thought out ones at that. If you want to discuss the state of PvZ then fine but at least try to be more objective. I do agree the match up is in a very bad place right now but nothing you're saying would solve anything.
Although I agree with the current imbalance, Sase is a bit biased for Protoss, as these issues are also present in TvZ, at the very least the late-game issues with Infestor/Broodlord. I really don't get where this whole "PvZ is horrible but TvZ is fine" thing is coming from for the past few months. Wake up people, Terran is having just as much trouble against Zerg in late game.
On October 19 2012 18:39 LeanMeanMacroMachine wrote: What about a nerf on the slowling (speed,hp,attackdmg, whatever) and include whatever statnerf with metabolic boost making the slowling nerfed but the speedling remains untouched.
Because 11/11 rax needs to be stronger. I'm for this change!
Its not really THAT strong if you react correctly (dont necessarily includes zerglings)...
LOL, this guy is saying zergs don't need lings to defend a 11/11 rax! Hell yeah , genius of the year. He should be invited to blizzard as a game designer. Where have you been when dustin was thinking about rocks man!
On October 19 2012 18:39 LeanMeanMacroMachine wrote: What about a nerf on the slowling (speed,hp,attackdmg, whatever) and include whatever statnerf with metabolic boost making the slowling nerfed but the speedling remains untouched.
Because 11/11 rax needs to be stronger. I'm for this change!
Its not really THAT strong if you react correctly (dont necessarily includes zerglings)...
But if what you're saying is true, rax should be nerfed...
some good ideas and some really bad ones like: give nexus ability to attack AND reveal for 50 energy. so basically you will never be harrassed again in combination with warpins since even you as pro will have 50 energy on nexus lategame.
agreed with infestor being a slow instead of root. cant wait for the new HOTS units being fine and blizzard moving on to fixing old WoL units: infestors, hydras, ultras, corruptors, void rays, carrier, DTs, BC, raven, reaper, collosus, sentry (FF).
dont think the will address the real problems which is marine hp and warpgate tech but hey, if they fix the units it will at least be a whole lot better.
I always wondered why people are actually posting stuff like this? Blizzard is listening to the community, just take a look at the HOTS Beta changes that they did.
And If you guys think that the game is trash, and have nothing normal, or constructive to say, don't really know why are you posting here. Yes, you can voice your opinion, but there is no point if you don't care to explain anything, and just scream "this game sucks!".
About the OP, I agree with some of the Ideas, Infestors definitely need changing, but some of them aren't really that good. And yes, post seems biased.
That infestor thing on making it so units that are funneled cant be fungled is pure gold. I think it only adds skill to the game and really it may restore balance to the force from my spectator viewpoint.
The Ora le change about an attack and making something invisible is not bad, not bad at all.
Thanks for taking the time to make this Sase, and good job maintaining reason ability by stating not all of these things need implemementation
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
He wants to remove the mothership and the buffs to protoss were pretty minor, if you remove the mothership protoss has no way of winning lategame vs zerg unless zerg is tweaked.
Imoho it's a good post. I think the point here is that SaSe is trying to convey ideas on how to make the game more dynamic and exciting, rather than just handing out nerfs left and right. Of course things would have to be rebalanced on all sides, but as I'm of the opinion that the game (WoL at least, I dunno bout HotS) is too centered around certain units I'd be all for that.
Well that was an interesting read. A lot of fire in this thread to boot.
I will agree with Sase's view on the current stagnant state of PvZ. There was a lot of flaming going on about the spawning pool timer. I think its a bad idea for a timer, but I agree that zerg is not punished enough economically when it comes to doing a 6/7 pool.
The mother ship is a design that should not be in the Starcraft world, but as stated in an earlier post, the mother ship core addresses a lot of the early game problems Protoss face. The sentry in hots does not need to upgrade hallucinate. These are all steps in the right direction I think.
Overall, I think the hold position bug or whatever should be addressed in future patches. The brood lord being 6 supply should also be looked at by blizzard, maybe even have it at 5 supply to give it a test run. Its not like unit supply's have never been overlooked, the roach being 1 supply sticks out in my mind in regards to this issue.
Only allow infested terran to be spawned by unburrowed infestors is also a good idea.
I have one more idea of my own. Look at the DT, the obs, the banshee, the ghost, etc. When they are cloaked, you are still able to, for the most part, make out their locations. I know burrow movement shows a slight bit of smoke, but I do not believe it is easy enough to make out. Making burrow movement more visible(maybe have more smoke appear, or have the ground move more) is an idea I've always thought about. Any opinions are welcome.
It's pretty late so good night TL, lets try to keep this topic civil and as productive as possible.
"The oracle can recall 8-12 units(has to be tweaked I guess) for 100 energy. Would make toss really mobile lategame compared to now and very fun to play instead of trying to get to a deathball. Would also be cool so we might see a minimap full of stuff like we did in good old BW in the progames where stuff was going on everywhere." - Sase
I really like the idea buit its to powerful instead of making an recall of 8-12 units it would be better to make a recall for lets say like 16-20 supply because in the endgame you just can't recall all over the place like 12 carrier but otherwise I was really enjoying to read your stuff sase
So you took your whining about Zerg from twitter and made a long post here instead? I mean some of your points/ideas sound good, but alot of it is very very biased.
... I love this post and I love how a pro actually explains why some matchups are simply not working.
However, I wonder why it is okay to complain about balance when you're a pro yet anyone (even top masters and GM's) will easilly get warnings or bans for saying the exact same things
I think this post just shows you how some (if not most) progamers are actually incapable of being objective and are extremely biased. The ZvP matchup is completely broken, but you only list the "protoss problems", completely ignoring how *every zerg composition except bl/infestor/queen/spines* gets absolutely demolished by the protoss deathball. So yeah, that makes your post pretty useless.
A lot of other "progamer suggestions" suffer from the same problem, though, so thanks for trying.
I think the big issue with PvZ is how every attack protoss attempts the whole game long is almost all in. Early game, you have to rely on sentries so much that you cannot move out unless you all in. If you lose your sentries the game ends right there. Midgame, roaches are faster than your army so you basically have to engage a roach/ling army if the zerg wants you to. If you lose your army, the game ends. Once infestors are out, the danger of being fungaled is enough to keep you at home because if you lose your army, the game ends. And after all that, here's the worst part. You cannot beat BL/infestor unless you get a lucky vortex. So basically, here's the protoss metagame that doesn't involve an all in right now: you sit at home, turtling until lategame to allow zerg to create an army you cannot beat. How does protoss have a high winrate in PvZ then? Well, they don't. There are equal winrates in Korea for PvZ right now but the only reason for that is that Korean protoss have been a million times better at a) two base all ins and b) pre hive timings (all ins) ever since they existed. That's where those wins come from.
PvZ is currently unwinnable against a zerg that doesn't make mistakes. Doesn't matter how good you are.
So, what do we do about it? First of all, remove roach speed or move it to hive. I don't even understand why it's in the game (this early). A protoss army still won't catch up with roaches (except for stalkers) and that's how it should be. Keep the current speed on creep though. Zerg should have an apparent speed advantage on creep. Protoss already pays 125/50 for a stalker compared to the roach's 75/25 for the higher mobility but that currently doesn't exist on and off creep. What would this change? You could move out on the map with stalkers aggressively until infestors are out, put pressure on, pull your opponent out of position and so on. You could outmicro roaches with stalkers (!!!) which make both playing and watching more fun imo. It just opens up the midgame. Zerg would have to be more careful about their movements on the map. If they do a 200/200 roach attack, it would be much more of an all in - as it should be. However, since the speed on creep would be the same as a speed roach on creep now, the roach would still fill the same role defensively. Zergs would just have to better at spreading creep, denying observers, etc. All things that would make the game better imo. Does this affect any 2 base all ins? Not in the slightest. Does it affect lategame? Not at all except that protoss would have a way better chance at dealing some damage early/midgame and thus gain advantages and maybe start the stargate tech earlier, which then might help deal with BL/infestor.
Make the corruptor massive. That way, void rays are finally effective against them and suddenly serve a purpose in the protoss arsenal. As it is right now, corruptors can be massed ridiculously easily and with infestor support, make protoss air effectively useless. Their unit profile says they're "weak against void rays" while really through game mechanics, corruptor speed and the time it takes to mass them, it's the exact opposite. This doesn't affect TvZ or ZvZ in any way unless I missed something. What would change? Void rays could finally be the answer to BL/infestor. Infestors would have to focus more on dealing with void rays to prevent the corruptors and then the brood lords from being attacked. Meanwhile, stalkers become stronger through all the infestor energy void rays drain. This does not affect any 2 base aggression (like +1 4gate void ray pressure, single/double stargate openers). It would make protoss air much more viable and would force zerg into hydras which should have a speed upgrade at lair (as ItWhoSpeaks described in his post on the forums recently).
On October 19 2012 19:37 imPermanenCe wrote: Too much zerg nerfs >_> hard to take this very serious.
It's suggestions and not a masterplan to change the races (ltr). Not all perfecly thought out maybe, but he got some good points.
I can just judge on the matchup from a viewers perspective, yes i play, but not on a level to be relevant and the balance doesn't really affect people on my level, seriously. I just aggree with his thoughts on the mothership. Basically having to rely on the mothership/Archon toilet mechanic in high level endgame is unbelievably stupid and very boring to watch. Also the Infestor needs some work.
Many people still think Zerg mechanics are hard and Toss is an A-move race, first of all on the lower level. 3 of my friends switched to Zerg (Gold-Diamond players, ye not really relevant) and their general level of play increased drastically. A quick 10 minute tutorial on the Larva mechanic and some timings from a friend was enough. True story.
I'm also really disappointed in HotS SO FAR. I experienced BW coming out and it really made the game playable and changed everything. In comparison HotS is a joke and the new units are nothing less than disappointing.
Man i think someone has to stop this guy... hes crying rivers all over the place (twitter, reddit forums etc.) .. its getting annoying :/... I mean there are some people tryin to do something about some changes instead of crying like Catz, Destiny, MrBitter did with #saveHOTS ... maybe you should talk with them instead of suggestiong this much bitching to the community
On October 19 2012 11:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it"
These threads:
A. Are not all that common - there are maybe 2-3 per month tops B. Usually go in Strategy discussion or Blogs (and this may be moved to Strategy discussion) C. Should get special privileges because of their creator's status. No offense, but it's stupid to think that Random Person A's opinion is as important as SaSe's, even after the race bias.
A) didn't quite pan out to well B) like I said, go to blogs C) I'm not doubting the weight, just the amount...
Maybe I'm just getting tired of the negativity everyone places on SC2... I mean shit... Anywhere you go, you come on TL and find "this game really blows" in most of the threads (paraphrased of course) then you decided maybe no TL for awhile so you go play SC2 and login, every channel that has people are compalining about SC2 or balance or some other bullshit so I decide to just launch a match and I get in and it's lke "man Hots looks like shit"... There is this erry depression everywhere you go on TL/SC2... Maybe if we all realized 60.00 game has been immensly worthwhile we could start to enjoy it again.
I guess I'm just frustrated.
Every time i go to some post i see you starting an argument, you also did this with me in another thread. Are you just here for that?
On another note i can't say i agree with a lot of what you are saying, except for lategame maybe, it can be really hard.
On October 19 2012 20:11 NesquiKGG wrote: Man i think someone has to stop this guy... hes crying rivers all over the place (twitter, reddit forums etc.) .. its getting annoying :/... I mean there are some people tryin to do something about some changes instead of crying like Catz, Destiny, MrBitter did with #saveHOTS ... maybe you should talk with them instead of suggestiong this much bitching to the community
You complain about crying and then bring up Destiny? You can't say that with a straight face...
Destiny has been pretty relax about balance recently. Sase and Naniwa are having a roll with QQ for months though.
I was glad to read something about the current state of the game. But reading something about "infestors shouldn't be able to cast infested terrans from underground" made me frown. And there are more silly things mentioned, so I am not blown away at all by this.
On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran?
Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
A lot of good ideas. I'm not sure about Zerg nerfs but Protoss needs big changes. Currently the race is very limited and dependant on random things like vortex or bo wins in PvP.
What do you guys think of increasing build time for the queen or spawning pool. I think increasing the queen would be nice. Should delay zerg long enough so they open up more to timings.
Since warp gate tech got delayed for the sake of pvp and barracks building time increased i think a similar should be done to zerg. Increasing the build time on the queen should delay the zerg enough to make 3 base play be more risky.
I wanted to give a good answer to this bad thread but heres my new version. Protoss is doing fine and gets a lot of improvement in Hots.
Sase is 25 year old - life is 15 years old and playing the gsl final tomorow.
Sase: Practise = linear improvement, who plays more is better. JUST NOT TRUE. That would require that every person is equal. You have reached your skillcap bro, stop playing mass games every day and try to improve something else.
Last GSL final PvP, OSL almost Pvp finals, WCS korea/asia
other point, trough his whiny QQ in the last time Sase shouldnt be allowed to have an opinion like ROOTod, DigSelect, Idra and Rotterdamn, Grubby. All this player have something in common, they´re at its best C-pros and should accept even if a race gets nerfed they will never be good at this game again.
btw. Protoss player are really hyprocrats, for example Grubby saying zerg doesnt require micro his answer was the phase shield lol Mc said after Hero vs. Leenock Zerg buildings shouldnt be able to move out of bases. I agree, like Pylons shouldnt R.i.p. Cannonrushes.
People are surprised that he is talking from a Protoss perspective? What do you expect?
I think he made a lot of good points, and had some good ideas.
The problem for protoss against zerg is that every attack has to be an all in to win. This is fundamentally broken. I think this might be because hard counters in SC2 are too strong. 1 unit comes out and it is over if you are not prepared for it so you have to attack at a time before that unit comes out aka infestors/broodlords.
On October 19 2012 20:05 DarkLordOlli wrote: I think the big issue with PvZ is how every attack protoss attempts the whole game long is almost all in. Early game, you have to rely on sentries so much that you cannot move out unless you all in. If you lose your sentries the game ends right there. Midgame, roaches are faster than your army so you basically have to engage a roach/ling army if the zerg wants you to. If you lose your army, the game ends. Once infestors are out, the danger of being fungaled is enough to keep you at home because if you lose your army, the game ends. And after all that, here's the worst part. You cannot beat BL/infestor unless you get a lucky vortex. So basically, here's the protoss metagame that doesn't involve an all in right now: you sit at home, turtling until lategame to allow zerg to create an army you cannot beat. How does protoss have a high winrate in PvZ then? Well, they don't. There are equal winrates in Korea for PvZ right now but the only reason for that is that Korean protoss have been a million times better at a) two base all ins and b) pre hive timings (all ins) ever since they existed. That's where those wins come from.
PvZ is currently unwinnable against a zerg that doesn't make mistakes. Doesn't matter how good you are.
So, what do we do about it? First of all, remove roach speed or move it to hive. I don't even understand why it's in the game (this early). A protoss army still won't catch up with roaches (except for stalkers) and that's how it should be. Keep the current speed on creep though. Zerg should have an apparent speed advantage on creep. Protoss already pays 125/50 for a stalker compared to the roach's 75/25 for the higher mobility but that currently doesn't exist on and off creep. What would this change? You could move out on the map with stalkers aggressively until infestors are out, put pressure on, pull your opponent out of position and so on. You could outmicro roaches with stalkers (!!!) which make both playing and watching more fun imo. It just opens up the midgame. Zerg would have to be more careful about their movements on the map. If they do a 200/200 roach attack, it would be much more of an all in - as it should be. However, since the speed on creep would be the same as a speed roach on creep now, the roach would still fill the same role defensively. Zergs would just have to better at spreading creep, denying observers, etc. All things that would make the game better imo. Does this affect any 2 base all ins? Not in the slightest. Does it affect lategame? Not at all except that protoss would have a way better chance at dealing some damage early/midgame and thus gain advantages and maybe start the stargate tech earlier, which then might help deal with BL/infestor.
Make the corruptor massive. That way, void rays are finally effective against them and suddenly serve a purpose in the protoss arsenal. As it is right now, corruptors can be massed ridiculously easily and with infestor support, make protoss air effectively useless. Their unit profile says they're "weak against void rays" while really through game mechanics, corruptor speed and the time it takes to mass them, it's the exact opposite. This doesn't affect TvZ or ZvZ in any way unless I missed something. What would change? Void rays could finally be the answer to BL/infestor. Infestors would have to focus more on dealing with void rays to prevent the corruptors and then the brood lords from being attacked. Meanwhile, stalkers become stronger through all the infestor energy void rays drain. This does not affect any 2 base aggression (like +1 4gate void ray pressure, single/double stargate openers). It would make protoss air much more viable and would force zerg into hydras which should have a speed upgrade at lair (as ItWhoSpeaks described in his post on the forums recently).
Just things I've been thinking about.
This is one of the best 'Idea posts' i have read about balance if not THE best. Zerg's would have a huge cry about the roach speed off creep but considering the cost of a roach and the mobility of zergling's etc they shouldn't. Really well thought out, kudos to you sir
On October 19 2012 20:05 DarkLordOlli wrote: I think the big issue with PvZ is how every attack protoss attempts the whole game long is almost all in. Early game, you have to rely on sentries so much that you cannot move out unless you all in. If you lose your sentries the game ends right there. Midgame, roaches are faster than your army so you basically have to engage a roach/ling army if the zerg wants you to. If you lose your army, the game ends. Once infestors are out, the danger of being fungaled is enough to keep you at home because if you lose your army, the game ends. And after all that, here's the worst part. You cannot beat BL/infestor unless you get a lucky vortex. So basically, here's the protoss metagame that doesn't involve an all in right now: you sit at home, turtling until lategame to allow zerg to create an army you cannot beat. How does protoss have a high winrate in PvZ then? Well, they don't. There are equal winrates in Korea for PvZ right now but the only reason for that is that Korean protoss have been a million times better at a) two base all ins and b) pre hive timings (all ins) ever since they existed. That's where those wins come from.
PvZ is currently unwinnable against a zerg that doesn't make mistakes. Doesn't matter how good you are.
So, what do we do about it? First of all, remove roach speed or move it to hive. I don't even understand why it's in the game (this early). A protoss army still won't catch up with roaches (except for stalkers) and that's how it should be. Keep the current speed on creep though. Zerg should have an apparent speed advantage on creep. Protoss already pays 125/50 for a stalker compared to the roach's 75/25 for the higher mobility but that currently doesn't exist on and off creep. What would this change? You could move out on the map with stalkers aggressively until infestors are out, put pressure on, pull your opponent out of position and so on. You could outmicro roaches with stalkers (!!!) which make both playing and watching more fun imo. It just opens up the midgame. Zerg would have to be more careful about their movements on the map. If they do a 200/200 roach attack, it would be much more of an all in - as it should be. However, since the speed on creep would be the same as a speed roach on creep now, the roach would still fill the same role defensively. Zergs would just have to better at spreading creep, denying observers, etc. All things that would make the game better imo. Does this affect any 2 base all ins? Not in the slightest. Does it affect lategame? Not at all except that protoss would have a way better chance at dealing some damage early/midgame and thus gain advantages and maybe start the stargate tech earlier, which then might help deal with BL/infestor.
Make the corruptor massive. That way, void rays are finally effective against them and suddenly serve a purpose in the protoss arsenal. As it is right now, corruptors can be massed ridiculously easily and with infestor support, make protoss air effectively useless. Their unit profile says they're "weak against void rays" while really through game mechanics, corruptor speed and the time it takes to mass them, it's the exact opposite. This doesn't affect TvZ or ZvZ in any way unless I missed something. What would change? Void rays could finally be the answer to BL/infestor. Infestors would have to focus more on dealing with void rays to prevent the corruptors and then the brood lords from being attacked. Meanwhile, stalkers become stronger through all the infestor energy void rays drain. This does not affect any 2 base aggression (like +1 4gate void ray pressure, single/double stargate openers). It would make protoss air much more viable and would force zerg into hydras which should have a speed upgrade at lair (as ItWhoSpeaks described in his post on the forums recently).
Just things I've been thinking about.
This is one of the best 'Idea posts' i have read about balance if not THE best. Zerg's would have a huge cry about the roach speed off creep but considering the cost of a roach and the mobility of zergling's etc they shouldn't. Really well thought out, kudos to you sir
I think Sase has some good points about WOL: early scouting vs Zerg infestors too strong creep vision too much Mothership should be a fun unit not a unit that decides the game the flower pylon pylon range Phoenix
What's the point talking about WOL problems so much when there are already HOTS changes coming up anyway.. Broodlord/infestor/spine lategame is already handled a little bit by massive changes in the matchup with tempest, viper, locust swarm etc. Scouting problem is already dealt with by 1) purify so you don't need to scout 2) easier availability of hallucinate and 3) recall so you can attack without big repercussions against zerg
Of all these stuff listed only the sillyness of the mothership remains. If it turns out to be a problem is not sure because mothership might just be an unused or unimportant unit in HOTS unlike it is now. Still I agree it should be removed since it either sucks or will be so pivotal that long games can be decided by the use of just 1 unit which doesn't fit in the sc2 experience really.
For now I'm mostly worried about the stupidity that is the oracle and Mothership core. The terran, zerg and rest of the protoss changes actually look ok to me (despite being a bit boring).
On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran?
Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway.
On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran?
Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway.
Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op.
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
Same. So you want to make protoss easier and harder for the rest? some of your idea can be good.
What i want for sc2 is that all race put the same amont of efforts to win a game.
This is the problem with sc2. Every race thinks they are putting more effort to win then the other race. Its not as clear cut as in BW when if you lose, you know its your fault. Someone posted on team liquid why Protoss is so frustrating to play against and has so many quote worthy moments there. The game is not clear cut enough, people blame imbalance because they can't see for themselves how shitty they are unlike BW.
I personally feel the article I link has a more objective view of the balance of the game rather then sase's rather one sided bias view of zerg is op( and a lot less QQing). Which is wrong, since immortal sentry is just as frustrating to play against for us zerg as BL/infestor is to toss.
On October 19 2012 20:05 DarkLordOlli wrote: I think the big issue with PvZ is how every attack protoss attempts the whole game long is almost all in. Early game, you have to rely on sentries so much that you cannot move out unless you all in. If you lose your sentries the game ends right there. Midgame, roaches are faster than your army so you basically have to engage a roach/ling army if the zerg wants you to. If you lose your army, the game ends. Once infestors are out, the danger of being fungaled is enough to keep you at home because if you lose your army, the game ends. And after all that, here's the worst part. You cannot beat BL/infestor unless you get a lucky vortex. So basically, here's the protoss metagame that doesn't involve an all in right now: you sit at home, turtling until lategame to allow zerg to create an army you cannot beat. How does protoss have a high winrate in PvZ then? Well, they don't. There are equal winrates in Korea for PvZ right now but the only reason for that is that Korean protoss have been a million times better at a) two base all ins and b) pre hive timings (all ins) ever since they existed. That's where those wins come from.
PvZ is currently unwinnable against a zerg that doesn't make mistakes. Doesn't matter how good you are.
So, what do we do about it? First of all, remove roach speed or move it to hive. I don't even understand why it's in the game (this early). A protoss army still won't catch up with roaches (except for stalkers) and that's how it should be. Keep the current speed on creep though. Zerg should have an apparent speed advantage on creep. Protoss already pays 125/50 for a stalker compared to the roach's 75/25 for the higher mobility but that currently doesn't exist on and off creep. What would this change? You could move out on the map with stalkers aggressively until infestors are out, put pressure on, pull your opponent out of position and so on. You could outmicro roaches with stalkers (!!!) which make both playing and watching more fun imo. It just opens up the midgame. Zerg would have to be more careful about their movements on the map. If they do a 200/200 roach attack, it would be much more of an all in - as it should be. However, since the speed on creep would be the same as a speed roach on creep now, the roach would still fill the same role defensively. Zergs would just have to better at spreading creep, denying observers, etc. All things that would make the game better imo. Does this affect any 2 base all ins? Not in the slightest. Does it affect lategame? Not at all except that protoss would have a way better chance at dealing some damage early/midgame and thus gain advantages and maybe start the stargate tech earlier, which then might help deal with BL/infestor.
Make the corruptor massive. That way, void rays are finally effective against them and suddenly serve a purpose in the protoss arsenal. As it is right now, corruptors can be massed ridiculously easily and with infestor support, make protoss air effectively useless. Their unit profile says they're "weak against void rays" while really through game mechanics, corruptor speed and the time it takes to mass them, it's the exact opposite. This doesn't affect TvZ or ZvZ in any way unless I missed something. What would change? Void rays could finally be the answer to BL/infestor. Infestors would have to focus more on dealing with void rays to prevent the corruptors and then the brood lords from being attacked. Meanwhile, stalkers become stronger through all the infestor energy void rays drain. This does not affect any 2 base aggression (like +1 4gate void ray pressure, single/double stargate openers). It would make protoss air much more viable and would force zerg into hydras which should have a speed upgrade at lair (as ItWhoSpeaks described in his post on the forums recently).
Just things I've been thinking about.
This is one of the best 'Idea posts' i have read about balance if not THE best. Zerg's would have a huge cry about the roach speed off creep but considering the cost of a roach and the mobility of zergling's etc they shouldn't. Really well thought out, kudos to you sir
These are some really good suggestions too.
Would have to be careful about ZvT balance with the roach speed upgrade though. There's a lot of different mech builds out there that might be able to abuse the lack of roach speed. So maybe roach speed at infestation pit instead of hive or something... not sure. Mech against zerg is still somewhat unexplored concerning timings and unit composition at certain times I think.
On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran?
Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway.
Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op.
On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran?
Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway.
Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op.
Because people actually watch pro games.
Yeah, So I guess the recent WCS proves toss are just whining? Because they sure are ripping zergs and terrans a new one there. 7 toss. lol.
On October 19 2012 20:03 budar wrote: I think this post just shows you how some (if not most) progamers are actually incapable of being objective and are extremely biased. The ZvP matchup is completely broken, but you only list the "protoss problems", completely ignoring how *every zerg composition except bl/infestor/queen/spines* gets absolutely demolished by the protoss deathball. So yeah, that makes your post pretty useless.
A lot of other "progamer suggestions" suffer from the same problem, though, so thanks for trying.
this. thank you I thought I was alone noticing that...
On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran?
Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway.
Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op.
Because people actually watch pro games.
Yeah, So I guess the recent WCS proves toss are just whining? Because they sure are ripping zergs and terrans a new one there. 7 toss. lol.
I actually mentioned the reason for this in my giant wall of text. It's 2 base all ins, micro and pre hive all ins in PvZ. PvT is protoss favored, no arguments here. But it's not as imbalanced as PvZ.
On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran?
Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway.
Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op.
Because people actually watch pro games.
Yeah, So I guess the recent WCS proves toss are just whining? Because they sure are ripping zergs and terrans a new one there. 7 toss. lol.
I actually mentioned the reason for this in my giant wall of text. It's 2 base all ins, micro and pre hive all ins in PvZ. PvT is protoss favored, no arguments here. But it's not as imbalanced as PvZ.
Yeah, all ins actually gave toss such a big win rate. Doesn't that mean something should be done to buff zerg's early game? Let me repeat and bold this part since again all the toss players are ignoring this, PROTOSS ARE FAVOURED IN P v Z WIN RATES. WCS korea started with 12 Zerg, 9 Terran and 11 Protoss and ended with 7 Protoss in top 8. How fucked up is that if it was all ins and zergs and terrans couldn't defend it. Ridiculous and to think toss were whining about 1/1/1 before when they have been all inning to a significant win rate and still can't be stopped after 2 years.
I'll also write my 2 cents about what he said. I stopped playing SC2 about a year ago and I used to play protoss. I really liked the game since beta but mainly PvZ made me stop playing, I never copied builds or did any timings attacks, I never enjoyed that style of playing even though it's needed but I didn't care as I played the game only for fun. I always tried to go for the long game while harrassing and creating myself an advantage through various means, I did manage to get GM in maybe season 2 or 3 (don't remember) but that's exactly when I decided to switch to Dota2. When I stopped playing I swear that I had exactly the same thoughs SaSe had, nothing more and nothing less. PvZ just felt like no matter how much advantage I managed to pile up during the game, no matter how much small things I did correctly and good decisions the outcome of the game would still be in the hands of the Zerg and him only. It's up to him to fuck up an engagement horribly and all I can do is either engage in a wall of spines, blink under them to get to the broodlords and get chain fungaled or wait for him to crawl with his spines in front of my bases and siege with BLs. Yes sometimes they clamped up everything and let it get vortexed, but even with what I thought that was the best composition, best control, blanket storms and feedbacks on everything I would still get steamrolled. And that would happen game after game after game, which lead to frustration and just made the game not fun for me anymore. Then I'd watch the progames to see how they won PvZ and it was the same, either 2-3 bases all ins or games where Zerg fucks up horribly something (gives away free 30 supply of units for no reason, doesn't kill the first probe, etc etc. I also feel like they have many more options than protoss, they can do so many all ins that are semi unscoutable from P as SaSe said even tho Zergs right now are so confided in the lategame that they have very little reason to do so. Muta lings is very strong, roach lings as we saw from Stephano is strong, banelings are strong and so on, while protoss relies on one composition making the game very boring at least in my opinion. I now play dota semi-competitively, there's no reason for me to be blaming balance right now, I don't even think that that's the problem here. It's the mixture of units with a wrong concept which result in making the matchup frustrating for every protoss at the pro level.
On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran?
Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway.
Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op.
Because people actually watch pro games.
Yeah, So I guess the recent WCS proves toss are just whining? Because they sure are ripping zergs and terrans a new one there. 7 toss. lol.
I actually mentioned the reason for this in my giant wall of text. It's 2 base all ins, micro and pre hive all ins in PvZ. PvT is protoss favored, no arguments here. But it's not as imbalanced as PvZ.
Yeah, all ins actually gave toss such a big win rate. Doesn't that mean something should be done to buff zerg's early game? WCS korea started with 12 Zerg, 9 Terran and 11 Protoss and ended with 7 Protoss in top 8. How fucked up is that if it was all ins and zergs and terrans couldn't defend it. Ridiculous and to think toss were whining about 1/1/1 before when they have been all inning to a significant win rate and still can't be stopped after 2 years.
Actually all ins only give protoss a 51% winrate in Korea. 40% in Europe. You're also not mentioning the fact that both terran and zerg were lacking their best players at WCS Korea. Protoss had the best representatives of their race in the entire world present at this event. DRG was in a super slump, Leenock dropped in ZvZ. Curious just didn't play well. Look at the amount of ZvZ played.
On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran?
Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway.
Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op.
Because people actually watch pro games.
Yeah, So I guess the recent WCS proves toss are just whining? Because they sure are ripping zergs and terrans a new one there. 7 toss. lol.
I actually mentioned the reason for this in my giant wall of text. It's 2 base all ins, micro and pre hive all ins in PvZ. PvT is protoss favored, no arguments here. But it's not as imbalanced as PvZ.
Yeah, all ins actually gave toss such a big win rate. Doesn't that mean something should be done to buff zerg's early game? WCS korea started with 12 Zerg, 9 Terran and 11 Protoss and ended with 7 Protoss in top 8. How fucked up is that if it was all ins and zergs and terrans couldn't defend it. Ridiculous and to think toss were whining about 1/1/1 before when they have been all inning to a significant win rate and still can't be stopped after 2 years.
Actually all ins only give protoss a 51% winrate in Korea. 40% in Europe. You're also not mentioning the fact that both terran and zerg were lacking their best players at WCS Korea. Protoss had the best representatives of their race in the entire world present at this event.
So you are saying RoRo and Curious are not good players?Yeah I am sure DRG is in a slump, his recent osl win against MC must be because of him getting out of the slump just in time right? And Protoss just happened to have the best representatives? lol. If its one thing I learned from this thread, its that people don't want a balance game, they just want to win. No wonder Fxoboss says the community is killing itself in his blog.
To the OP, heres the deal. I will make all the changes you request on a custom map of your choice. I will also want you to test this on a Zerg opponent that are equivalent of your skill.. play the game 5-10 times and come back with results..
Sase, you make some valid points but man, some of your ideas are just disgusting. Delaying pool? Like, seriously man?
Fungal, forcefields, mothership-vortex and broodlords. Those are key problems with PvZ and those should be changed first. Problem is changing both fungal and forcefields would affect other matchups.
On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran?
Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway.
Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op.
Because people actually watch pro games.
Yeah, So I guess the recent WCS proves toss are just whining? Because they sure are ripping zergs and terrans a new one there. 7 toss. lol.
I actually mentioned the reason for this in my giant wall of text. It's 2 base all ins, micro and pre hive all ins in PvZ. PvT is protoss favored, no arguments here. But it's not as imbalanced as PvZ.
Yeah, all ins actually gave toss such a big win rate. Doesn't that mean something should be done to buff zerg's early game? WCS korea started with 12 Zerg, 9 Terran and 11 Protoss and ended with 7 Protoss in top 8. How fucked up is that if it was all ins and zergs and terrans couldn't defend it. Ridiculous and to think toss were whining about 1/1/1 before when they have been all inning to a significant win rate and still can't be stopped after 2 years.
Actually all ins only give protoss a 51% winrate in Korea. 40% in Europe. You're also not mentioning the fact that both terran and zerg were lacking their best players at WCS Korea. Protoss had the best representatives of their race in the entire world present at this event.
So you are saying RoRo and Curious are not good players? And Protoss just happened to have the best representatives? lol. If its one thing I learned from this thread, its that people don't want a balance game, they just want to win. No wonder Fxoboss says the community is killing itself in his blog.
You're oversimplifying things so much, it amazes me. DRG WAS in a slump back then as everybody will tell you, Leenock dropped in ZvZ, Roro and Curious made it to the main event where they got taken out by Parting and herO. You can't take two series and say "protoss is too strong". Roro took out GSL champion Seed 2-0. Curious took out Creator. There were 12 ZvZs at WCS Asia. Maybe that's where all the zergs got lost?
On October 19 2012 20:31 ImNightmare wrote: [quote] Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway.
Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op.
Because people actually watch pro games.
Yeah, So I guess the recent WCS proves toss are just whining? Because they sure are ripping zergs and terrans a new one there. 7 toss. lol.
I actually mentioned the reason for this in my giant wall of text. It's 2 base all ins, micro and pre hive all ins in PvZ. PvT is protoss favored, no arguments here. But it's not as imbalanced as PvZ.
Yeah, all ins actually gave toss such a big win rate. Doesn't that mean something should be done to buff zerg's early game? WCS korea started with 12 Zerg, 9 Terran and 11 Protoss and ended with 7 Protoss in top 8. How fucked up is that if it was all ins and zergs and terrans couldn't defend it. Ridiculous and to think toss were whining about 1/1/1 before when they have been all inning to a significant win rate and still can't be stopped after 2 years.
Actually all ins only give protoss a 51% winrate in Korea. 40% in Europe. You're also not mentioning the fact that both terran and zerg were lacking their best players at WCS Korea. Protoss had the best representatives of their race in the entire world present at this event.
So you are saying RoRo and Curious are not good players? And Protoss just happened to have the best representatives? lol. If its one thing I learned from this thread, its that people don't want a balance game, they just want to win. No wonder Fxoboss says the community is killing itself in his blog.
You're oversimplifying things so much, it amazes me.
Nah, you are overcomplicating things by just refusing to see that its not the race who needs to be improved, its the player themselves who should suck it up and improve themselves,especially when the win rates are favoring the race Toss players claim is UP in the P v Z match up. I had enough of this thread anyway, I am sure blizzard is not going to implement any of this change in WoL. Have a nice day.
You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway.
Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op.
Because people actually watch pro games.
Yeah, So I guess the recent WCS proves toss are just whining? Because they sure are ripping zergs and terrans a new one there. 7 toss. lol.
I actually mentioned the reason for this in my giant wall of text. It's 2 base all ins, micro and pre hive all ins in PvZ. PvT is protoss favored, no arguments here. But it's not as imbalanced as PvZ.
Yeah, all ins actually gave toss such a big win rate. Doesn't that mean something should be done to buff zerg's early game? WCS korea started with 12 Zerg, 9 Terran and 11 Protoss and ended with 7 Protoss in top 8. How fucked up is that if it was all ins and zergs and terrans couldn't defend it. Ridiculous and to think toss were whining about 1/1/1 before when they have been all inning to a significant win rate and still can't be stopped after 2 years.
Actually all ins only give protoss a 51% winrate in Korea. 40% in Europe. You're also not mentioning the fact that both terran and zerg were lacking their best players at WCS Korea. Protoss had the best representatives of their race in the entire world present at this event.
So you are saying RoRo and Curious are not good players? And Protoss just happened to have the best representatives? lol. If its one thing I learned from this thread, its that people don't want a balance game, they just want to win. No wonder Fxoboss says the community is killing itself in his blog.
You're oversimplifying things so much, it amazes me.
Nah, you are overcomplicating things by just refusing to see that its not the race who needs to be improved, its the player themselves who should suck it up and improve themselves. I had enough of this thread anyway, I am sure blizzard is not going to implement any of this change in WoL. Have a nice day.
I lol'd. When zerg players start saying that protoss is too weak in PvZ, you know it's real. Looking at DRG, the best zerg in the world.
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
Agree here. Sorry to say this but the OP comes over as just one long list of whine.
Let me rephrase this. Do any of here enjoy watching or playing a PvZ? I didn't and stopped playing starcraft 2. It's not about balance, it's about the matchup becoming a static, non dynamic, either completely turtly or complete all in ish matchup. There are some dynamics that need to change in mine, SaSe's and other protoss players and I think even zerg's opinion, obviously the game has to be balanced again after these changes, nobody said NERF ONLY THE ZERG UNITS AND LEAVE PROTOSS AS IT IS.
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
Agree here. Sorry to say this but the OP comes over as just one long list of whine.
Let me rephrase this. Do any of here enjoy watching or playing a PvZ? I didn't and stopped playing starcraft 2. It's not about balance, it's about the matchup becoming a static, non dynamic, either completely turtly or complete all in ish matchup. There are some dynamics that need to change in mine, SaSe's and other protoss players and I think even zerg's opinion, obviously the game has to be balanced again after these changes, nobody said NERF ONLY THE ZERG UNITS AND LEAVE PROTOSS AS IT IS.
But he never adresses the other side of the problem. Zerg needs BL/infestor otherwise they are screwed in 90% of the cases. I understand that its boring to watch but you cannot look at this problem from 1 side only, you need to adress both. Also "doesn't make sense" is not a valid argument when talking about balance.
On October 19 2012 22:05 DarkLordOlli wrote: When zerg players start saying that protoss is too weak in PvZ, you know it's real. Looking at DRG, the best zerg in the world.
I am failing to see how this qualifies DRG as a balance expert. He's not being paid nor is it his job to design the game. His job is to be successful regardless of problems.
DRG may drive the car but he still wouldn't know how to build it.
The point I'm trying to make is that being good at starcraft 2 and knowing the inner workings of it are not mutually inclusive qualities.
I like some of the fungal growth changes you proposed. What i hate the most about infestors is that they are so easy to control. I wouldnt mind the infestors being as good as they are now if it required some greater skill. Right now any gm zerg can bring down some great koreans just by depending on fungal growth and rush high tech such as broodlords.
Right now Lategame ZvT is bullshit. I see high gm zergs abandoning their queens from their hatcheries just to kill vikings and heal broodlords. Some of them completely stop inject from a number of bases since corruptors and infestors doesent require such high larva count,so from 4-5 base you can almost completely rely on the hatcheries producing larva themselves.
They should make queen lose hp from being out of creep. Will make it abit harder to defend vs hellions with mass queen and if a zerg chose to place them outside creep to help attack offensive outside creep they will eventually die.
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
Agree here. Sorry to say this but the OP comes over as just one long list of whine.
Let me rephrase this. Do any of here enjoy watching or playing a PvZ? I didn't and stopped playing starcraft 2. It's not about balance, it's about the matchup becoming a static, non dynamic, either completely turtly or complete all in ish matchup. There are some dynamics that need to change in mine, SaSe's and other protoss players and I think even zerg's opinion, obviously the game has to be balanced again after these changes, nobody said NERF ONLY THE ZERG UNITS AND LEAVE PROTOSS AS IT IS.
While I'll agree that the mothership is a terrible unit, I think SC2 has deeper gameplay issues than just motherships/infestor.
And like I said in another post, the bigger problem with these ideas give hardly any consideration into how they will affect ZvT and PvT.
I feel like if Sase took out the line with the spawning pool timer people would actually read the whole post and realize a lot of good information was given by him.
Things I agree with: -Get rid of mothership -Give Oracle new abilities -infestor burrow movement -Stalkers should have an opportunity to escape fungal -A better phoenix
Things I disagree with: -Putting a timer on spawning pool, that would cause many ZvT issues for sure
also I don't understand this one:
*Make infestors smaller so it requires more micro vs storm and collosus.
On October 19 2012 11:45 ssg wrote: Protoss crying about protoss. Shocker.
Protoss certainly has a better understanding of Protoss then Zerg or Terran does... especially when he's one of the best Protoss foreigners who plays the game.
So that makes him what.... top 30 protoss in the world? At best?
PvZ has been fine for a while.
Of course there are easy ways to lose, it's the same for all races. And GSL protoss have absolutely no trouble getting scouts into the Zergs bases most of the time.
Too bad this post started with really bad ideas, and finished with interesting ones. I would encourage people to read it until the end even if I don't agree with everything.
*Make infestors smaller so it requires more micro vs storm and collosus.
Imagine if infestors were zergling-size. Then two colossi could one shot 10 of them if you don't spread them out. That's the basic idea, just taken to an extreme I guess, but you get the picture .
On October 19 2012 22:05 DarkLordOlli wrote: When zerg players start saying that protoss is too weak in PvZ, you know it's real. Looking at DRG, the best zerg in the world.
I am failing to see how this qualifies DRG as a balance expert. He's not being paid nor is it his job to design the game. His job is to be successful regardless of problems.
DRG may drive the car but he still wouldn't know how to build it.
The point I'm trying to make is that being good at starcraft 2 and knowing the inner workings of it are not mutually inclusive qualities.
While I absolutely 100% agree with you, it is kind of missing the point. DRG is not making any balance suggestions, simply stating that in his experience as someone who plays the game more than 99% of everybody else, he feels like protoss is too weak against zerg. And since he plays the game this much and has such good understanding of the game (obviously, he's damn good), he is absolutely qualified to judge overall balance in my opinion.
Ugh a progamer making such awful suggestions like time counter on pool or saying that protoss is in a disadvantage early/mid is pretty dissapointing for me. I can only agree that infestor is a bit too good (you basically have to make it in every matchup to win) so it should be nerfed a bit and something else buffed. Would love to see idrA comment on your thoughts :D
I see alot of complaints about how infestors are the only thing that zergs go but... If you only had 1 good tier 2 unit what would you do? Mutas are nothing compared to what they were in brood war. banelines cannot be microed too much only amoved and spread a little (although I do think mines are wayy under used oh and I consider speedblings tier 2 or 1.5 btw). hydras are terrible kinda against everything Except mayyybeee sky terran and who does that vs zerg(even then infestors are better). I dont think that the problem itself lies with the infestor, but rather the problem is that the other units are so bad. hydras are bad... Ultras are pretty meh.... they can be a hit or a miss great for quick tech switches but protoss and terran dont need to go to any trouble to counter ultras because they already have robo and mauraders available. Honestly I think brood lords should just have a slower reload time. like Wayyyy slower(not as slow as the swarm host though.. That'd be ridiculous). This way brood lords would be able to have that spike damage when combined with fungal. That way final in final engagements I could trade more cost efficiently. OR!! just make fungal Slow flying units... so I get hit with a fungal oh shit I was being retarded and 8 of my voids got hit. I'll spread them. now you're gonna hit 4 with a fungal. Something like that would make air better. God i'm just talking out my ass oh well i'm done
On October 19 2012 22:28 BisuDagger wrote: ...snip...
also I don't understand this one:
*Make infestors smaller so it requires more micro vs storm and collosus.
Imagine if infestors were zergling-size. Then two colossi could one shot 10 of them if you don't spread them out. That's the basic idea, just taken to an extreme I guess, but you get the picture .
Thanks I do now
I honestly thought oh man there will be so much space between them storms would be worse if they were smaller. But then you reminded me this is SC2 ai and they eff-ing hate space.
Please discuss this with other pros before make a post like this up because its quality is like every random post from avilo that terran is too weak. And those daily balance or unit/spell invention posts appear daily on TL.
There are some good suggestions, but the fact that the whole OP is filled with bad suggestions too, that you would find on the bnet forum made by a gold league poster, doesn't make this OP very good. Now you come more over like you're whining over the game and are suggesting ridiculous things. Like a spawning pool timer till 1:20? That's just stupid and "doesn't make any sense".
LOTS of people not reading what he said.. jesus christ. He didn't say IMPLEMENT ALL OF THESE. He said (clearly) "here are some suggestions, pick some of them".
Protoss pro who is extremely bad in matchup makes a giant nerf post, everyone jumps on the opportunity to join in on the whine fest about how every single Zerg unit, even creep tumors, are overpowered.
This thread is sad and hilarious at the same time.
I can get behind most of your changes Sase but infested Terrans unable to shoot up would make toss late game with carriers unstoppable especially if mothership stays in. It's already bad enough trying to beat that let alone without infested terrans.
On October 19 2012 22:05 DarkLordOlli wrote: When zerg players start saying that protoss is too weak in PvZ, you know it's real. Looking at DRG, the best zerg in the world.
I am failing to see how this qualifies DRG as a balance expert. He's not being paid nor is it his job to design the game. His job is to be successful regardless of problems.
DRG may drive the car but he still wouldn't know how to build it.
The point I'm trying to make is that being good at starcraft 2 and knowing the inner workings of it are not mutually inclusive qualities.
While I absolutely 100% agree with you, it is kind of missing the point. DRG is not making any balance suggestions, simply stating that in his experience as someone who plays the game more than 99% of everybody else, he feels like protoss is too weak against zerg. And since he plays the game this much and has such good understanding of the game (obviously, he's damn good), he is absolutely qualified to judge overall balance in my opinion.
You're right DRG isn't making any balance suggestions. So why is it ok for Sase (or you) to do? Which one of these leads to more reasonable discussion?
A: "I think Protoss being designed with more specialized units has lead to a lack of more well rounded units to fill the gap in the Protoss arsenal. This becomes a more apparent problem in the face of certain enemy unit compositions."
B: "Remove forcefields because they make Immortal all-ins too strong."
The latter example is all over the OP. The former is nowhere to be found.
On October 19 2012 16:49 Satiinifi wrote: Did he just complain about pvz, as far as I've seen pvz is 10 times more balanced than tvz or tvp, havent seen a single protoss or zerg mention pvt as his hardest matchup in past 8 months, thats something to worry about in itself.
Not saying that pvz wouldnt look ridiculous aswell.
Damnit SaSe stop this stupid bullshit, you're ruining your image to a point where it becomes painful to watch.
You're bad at PvZ we get it, but don't act like every Protoss was below 50% vs Zergs, that's what Bronze to Masters players do ( I'm plat and I complain about these f*cking storms, or these f*cking fungals everyday ).
Why PvZ Ratio in korea is like P 60% vs Z since few months ? Like I mean your whole point is to redesign units and stuff because you don't want to improove , to redesign stuff according to your style. The only points and issues I agree are late game, this whole deathball battle makes no sense and doesn't represent the spirit of what a rts is. But lings runby, why not ? That's something you should be worried about, it's real time strategy, why in the world they would let you wall-in and be safe other than letting you be greedy and lazy. Immo sentry stalker is like what represent the most broken part imo, seing Parting doing this build over and over and winning with it quite quite easily. Another issue is wall-ins, on T side, P side even Z side, that shouldn't exist, just to make the game more dynamic and less hurp durp, every1 can chrono probes, chrono upgrades, stay on 2 base and follow the easy 70 steps of his favorite player build and be completly ignorant of what the game actually is.
Anyways, no matter if your pro or not, it's always easier to blame game designs, game balances than ourself, while many koreans try to focus on the work harder attitude and it seems that's working because P looking kinda scary in KR.
I defy anyone to tell me lategame PvZ is anything other than Zerg favoured. Go ahead, tell me how Protoss is supposed to play from that position. Sase may be wrong about Spawning Pool timings, but he's spot on about Infestor/BL.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
Life disagrees. And he makes top tier terrans look extremely silly with his disagreement.
Sase isn't talking about PvT (because protoss is fucking strong in that match-up) he is only talking PvZ, so how does making Terran look silly apply at all? Blade has a point, Sase is bitching about things that were a problem in early game BW PvZ, did he even play BW?
This match-up would be extremely difficult for zerg without infestors or with significantly changed infestors. A fix would have to be something subtle like IT cost 35 instead of 25 energy.
On October 19 2012 11:38 SaSe wrote: *Infested terrans and broodlings gets upgrades. It's really powerful for 0 food units.
Agree with this. IT are super strong when upgraded and can be massed in huge amounts. If you compare them to autoturrets (that can't be massed even with mass raven because they require so much space) it makes even more sense.
On October 20 2012 00:52 deathzz wrote: I do feel that there should be some animation like cloak for burrow movement.
There is, but it's very subtle unlike cloak.
As for Sase's post, I agree with the issue of the whole mobile 'static defense'. It's not like you can wait for zerg to come and engage you, away from his spine wall, because they'll just creep the wall to you instead. It's actually rather sad that the only way to stop Infester/BL/corruptor/spine is to be everywhere the army isn't, or win with a spell that shouldn't exist in the first place.
I also agree on the mothership removal. Some of the ideas for the oracle are interesting, but they'd have to be extensively tried. The rest I'm pretty iffy on. The free unit idea is very core to the swarm style of zerg so I can't see nerfing it as a good thing.
As for the infester, so long as fungal has root and can be easily chained, and infested terrans cost 0 supply, they will be in every matchup and every strategy. There is no reason to bypass them; why would I waste supply and resources on anything but infesters when I can make a unit that not only roots my opponent, but creates supplyless, high dps units at the cost of small amounts of energy? As toss, if I could trade energy and only energy for units, I'd be a happy happy executor. I know, HT technically can, but storm doesn't root, and its speed makes it a suicide stormer.
I think the infested terrans are fine, but the root is definitely a problem in my mind. I'd be fine if it did twice as much damage, provided it didn't root. A slowing effect would be good too.
On October 19 2012 22:05 DarkLordOlli wrote: When zerg players start saying that protoss is too weak in PvZ, you know it's real. Looking at DRG, the best zerg in the world.
I am failing to see how this qualifies DRG as a balance expert. He's not being paid nor is it his job to design the game. His job is to be successful regardless of problems.
DRG may drive the car but he still wouldn't know how to build it.
The point I'm trying to make is that being good at starcraft 2 and knowing the inner workings of it are not mutually inclusive qualities.
While I absolutely 100% agree with you, it is kind of missing the point. DRG is not making any balance suggestions, simply stating that in his experience as someone who plays the game more than 99% of everybody else, he feels like protoss is too weak against zerg. And since he plays the game this much and has such good understanding of the game (obviously, he's damn good), he is absolutely qualified to judge overall balance in my opinion.
You're right DRG isn't making any balance suggestions. So why is it ok for Sase (or you) to do? Which one of these leads to more reasonable discussion?
A: "I think Protoss being designed with more specialized units has lead to a lack of more well rounded units to fill the gap in the Protoss arsenal. This becomes a more apparent problem in the face of certain enemy unit compositions."
B: "Remove forcefields because they make Immortal all-ins too strong."
The latter example is all over the OP. The former is nowhere to be found.
Who says it wouldn't be ok for DRG to make balance suggestions? In fact, I'd love to hear his opinion because he has such understanding of the game. I for my part watch almost every game I can get my hands on and then I play the game a lot. So I guess I do somewhat understand it at least. Why shouldn't it be ok to make balance suggestions? It's obvious that some things are wrong with this game currently and every suggestion could be a solution. Why not hear everything?
On October 20 2012 01:22 MicroTastiC wrote: Sase just explained all the protoss' problems that every P has been complaining about. pls FIX the game
Its more about fixing the whiners than fixing the game, really. To many threads read like this:
Blabla, race x is weak because <insert scenarios in which race x loses>, therefore (and because i am extremly smart) i will once and for all solve all problems: <insert stupid buffs that would make race x overpowered>.
All I see is a bad protoss writing stupid things. Sase is showing himself a complete joke, with no results in the pro scene and very bad overall gameplay, not only against zergs. Its not much of a surprise that bad protoss like sase, white-ra and many others keep crying about zerg and yet they lose to pretty much everyone in the scene and even good high masters
Its stupid to say that infestors are imba. Nerfing them would be like nerfing marines. It just makes no sense. Its also stupid to say that zergs are imba because of larva or because they have more expansions. Zergs do need more expansions because protoss have a much stronger army (supply vs supply) till zerg gets to BLs. So, please, stop saying stupid things like this.
And above everything, ZvP is 50%, actually even favouring protoss in high end koreans leagues.
The problem with ZvP is not the balance. Its just how stupid it is, protoss timings against zerg require almost no thinking or decision making. You just decide to do and you do it, even "in battle" decisions in zvp/pvz are stupid. Zerg macro is the same till 10mins in the game, every game/map no matter what. I'm also not even talking about how low APM toss requires. On top of that, after 20mins of stupid play, even if you consider that player A (toss or zerg) is much better than the player B (zerg or toss) and played a perfect game, he still can lose to vortex/neural because vortex is just completely stupid and requires close to no skill to use.
My main reactions was with the pool suggestion. I really like the ability to 6pool or more the fact that it's there. I rarely use it but I like it's existance, especially since the zerg in sc2 is soo lategame oriented compared to bw. 6pool is the really cheesy cheese that zerg have with possibly 12drone rush at that level.
The other thing I react to is the Mothership removal. I have seen it as a kinda interesting unit but I have to agree with your description of it. Just replace it with the arbiter since it should work in all matchups after a patch or two.
Mhmm seems like he was on a losing streak for 10-12 hours an then wrote this. Im self toss and there are really dumb things about the race aswell, like the AOE units are way to powerful in comparrisson to every other races ones. Aswell as TvP is somehow balanced but 1000x times harder for terran to play. I can agree with him on some points vs. Z but the Spawning Pool stuff is more than complete bullshit (heya i can set my nexus first on daybreak and he cant do anything). Aswell as the whole warpin technology was weird from the beginning to the game until now. It´s just that the Protoss race needs a fully redesign, because as it is now, it´s frustrating to play the race and its frustrating to play against the race.
no the real problem is that blizzard is willing to make changes. So instead of players adapting to the game, they bitch about how blizzard must change things.
WE ARE THE PROBLEM, NOT SC2.
Even though SC2 might not be the most perfect game, neither was BW but we didn't have blizzard holding our hands in BW, so players couldn't bitch, they just PLAYED THE GAME.
On October 20 2012 01:22 MicroTastiC wrote: Sase just explained all the protoss' problems that every P has been complaining about. pls FIX the game
Its more about fixing the whiners than fixing the game, really. To many threads read like this:
Blabla, race x is weak because <insert scenarios in which race x loses>, therefore (and because i am extremly smart) i will once and for all solve all problems: <insert stupid buffs that would make race x overpowered>.
There is a difference between whining and criticism though. Infestor OP, plz nerf is whine. Infestor needs to be looked at because X, Y, Z is more on the side of criticism.
Using your exact wording, Terran is weak because Colossus absolutely rapes T1 bio. Therefore, <insert credentials> I will once and for all solve all problems: Remove the Colossus.
Zerg is weak because early game pressure kills me. Therefore, <because I am IdrA> I will once and for all solve all problems: Remove marines from the game after raping David Kim with a tire iron.
Jokes aside, that's balance whine, because there's no discussion viability, and there's no real reason for it since viable counters exist and work within the metagame.
Protoss is weak because Brood lord infestor gives no viable late game option. Therefore, <because I am Sase> I will once and for all solve all problems: Change how free units work or change how the infestor works.
See the difference? His suggestions (some of them anyways) are very reasonable, and provide room for discussion beyond 'Infestor OP! Get rid of it!' It's not balance whine in the sense that he acknowledges the reasons for current metagame and winrates based on this issue.
I dont agree with quite a few things in OP. You know if i was to post the exact same thing people would be getting out pitch forks and trying to murder me. I think it'd go as far as one of the mods straight up closing the topic.
Best idea - priority of units/buildings in hotkeys. So annoying when you add a nexus to your nexus hotkey and it keeps going to the one you just put down..
I don't want to sound resentful but, SaSe's changes are just over the top..yet because he's a known pro this thread is open. We had a couple of good "suggestion" threads that got closed just because they were made by unknown people(the last one i remember was the one that suggested changing how fungal works and how it should be made more skillful in nature).
Also it sounds to me SaSe isn't very objective here, but no reason to expect that I guess. As a protoss source of knowledge Grubby's thinking is vastly more objective.
I agree that zerg 6 pool needs to be removed, it's fucking stupid that on 4 player maps if you are unlucky with scout you insta lose and even if you scout it and defend you're ALWAYS far behind the zerg, it's a stupid thing that shouldn't be possible.
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
Thank you. My feelings as zerg as well. I also think warpin is a problematic mechanic to balance. You pay the building time in advance _and_ you get the reinforcements directly in the ongoing battle. It is incredibly hard to make sense of, and is the source why protoss are so well off with doing timings.
"Remove mothership. We are not playing wc3. We are not playing dota neither any other moba game either. It's just silly to have something you can just have one of. It's way too much swings to have a unit like this. Good vortex vs bad vortex vs no vortex vs reversed vortex. It's like playing World Series of Poker with jokers. Guess only Darvin Moon would like that. To balance starcraft a very important thing is to remove randomness as much as possible and this is by far the biggest random factor in the game."
Protoss pro who is extremely bad in matchup makes a giant nerf post, everyone jumps on the opportunity to join in on the whine fest about how every single Zerg unit, even creep tumors, are overpowered.
This thread is sad and hilarious at the same time.
And when Idra or Destiny gives their 'balance suggestions'' everyone talks about how insightful and on-spot they are despite their ''suggestions'' and ideas being close to sh!t (sorry, but this word suits very well). Double standards much ? SaSe named a lot of things he doesn't like or thinks is OP. It's ok to express his opinion and it's our choice to decide he's wrong or right (and it's still a very subjective question). On some things I agree and on some- I disagree. However, this is really far from a whine. SaSe gave his opinion and it seems like it's too much to handle for butt-kissing community.
i can't say i agree with every thing u say , but from a terran perspective infestors are clearly OP. there is a reason why every zerg is massing infestors. I propose to change infestor to a 3 supply unit while everything else stays the same.
On October 20 2012 01:59 emc wrote: no the real problem is that blizzard is willing to make changes. So instead of players adapting to the game, they bitch about how blizzard must change things.
WE ARE THE PROBLEM, NOT SC2.
Even though SC2 might not be the most perfect game, neither was BW but we didn't have blizzard holding our hands in BW, so players couldn't bitch, they just PLAYED THE GAME.
This. It's too late now though, they've already made too many changes to the game to just leave it alone.
On October 19 2012 11:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it"
If pros can't state an opinion, then your opinion of a pro stating an opinion is not allowed either.
Protoss pro who is extremely bad in matchup makes a giant nerf post, everyone jumps on the opportunity to join in on the whine fest about how every single Zerg unit, even creep tumors, are overpowered.
This thread is sad and hilarious at the same time.
And when Idra or Destiny gives their 'balance suggestions'' everyone talks about how insightful and on-spot they are despite their ''suggestions'' and ideas being close to sh!t (sorry, but this word suits very well). Double standards much ? SaSe named a lot of things he doesn't like or thinks is OP. It's ok to express his opinion and it's our choice to decide he's wrong or right (and it's still a very subjective question). On some things I agree and on some- I disagree. However, this is really far from a whine. SaSe gave his opinion and it seems like it's too much to handle for butt-kissing community.
No actually Idra and Destiny got similar responses. This included people that thought every idea they had was brilliant. Well, this thread has a lot of those people too. I think a reasonable person is someone trying to point out none of these balance changes would balance anything while a more reasonable person is someone avoiding the thread entirely.
Protoss pro who is extremely bad in matchup makes a giant nerf post, everyone jumps on the opportunity to join in on the whine fest about how every single Zerg unit, even creep tumors, are overpowered.
This thread is sad and hilarious at the same time.
And when Idra or Destiny gives their 'balance suggestions'' everyone talks about how insightful and on-spot they are despite their ''suggestions'' and ideas being close to sh!t (sorry, but this word suits very well). Double standards much ? SaSe named a lot of things he doesn't like or thinks is OP. It's ok to express his opinion and it's our choice to decide he's wrong or right (and it's still a very subjective question). On some things I agree and on some- I disagree. However, this is really far from a whine. SaSe gave his opinion and it seems like it's too much to handle for butt-kissing community.
Far from it. When Idra gives his balance suggestions, people just laugh and call him a whiner. When Destiny does, everyone just calls him bad.
Sase has a terrible record vs Z. There are Protoss players, who are playing better opponents than who he goes up against more often, who have 2 wins for every one of his. He is just incompetent at the matchup and is lashing out, instead of trying to get better.
I'm glad some people here mentionned that the issue is not balance, but rather game/race design that makes the matchup boring and anything but dynamic. Sase has some interesting ideas, but our efforts should be focused on breaking the current metagame and find ways to make the matchup more exciting and less reliant on deathballs.
A few good suggestions and a lot of bad ones. Game design threads are worth reading right now, balance threads are not. I thought this was going to be a cool thread like Grubby's or Artosis' but a lot of the stuff really does come off as whiny and nonsensical. Like; infested terrans don't make air play useless, you don't have to attack into a mass of them.
What's wrong with shooting them while burrowed? Maybe Zerg should have a stealth harass unit.
Can you imagine if AI targeted infested terran eggs over other units that are in range? That would be awful for toss.
Infested terrans and broodlings would be TRASH vs an upgraded army late game if they didn't benefit from upgrades. Like, literally broodlings would be hitting for 1 damage on 3 armor marines.
I just picked the first four of his horrible suggestions, but almost all of them are pretty absurd. Don't even get me started on putting a timer on when to build the spawning pool. I almost stopped reading right there, and I wish I had. I even agree that some of these things are problems, but there are way WAY more intelligent ways of fixing them. Ways that actually make sense.
I agree that infestors are too good. Spine/infestor turtle is horrible to play and to spectate, and mothership/vortex is bad for the game.
On October 20 2012 02:54 YourAdHere wrote: Totally agree that mothership needs to be removed
Good luck winning ANY PvZ late game without the mothership, not saying it should be in the game but with the current balance Z will always win after 20 minutes of game time
On October 20 2012 02:54 YourAdHere wrote: Totally agree that mothership needs to be removed
Good luck winning ANY PvZ late game without the mothership, not saying it should be in the game but with the current balance Z will always win after 20 minutes of game time
yea, because removing the MS was the ONLY thing that was suggested here...
Okay you want to theorycraft SaSe let's theorycraft.
On October 19 2012 11:38 SaSe wrote: What does toss do? Nothing.
Nothing? How about warp gates? Warp in mechanics, where there can be 15 zealots in my main in a matter of seconds? Do you not understand the concept of 'being out of position'? Sure I can make a ton of spines at every base but it takes A LOT of god damn spine crawlers to stop zealots with good upgrades, at every base (I need 5 gas miners to support late game armies, otherwise its just an all in push). If Zerg has the money to do that at every bases and their front line...you got out-macroed hard and deserve to lose. Infestors are slow, Broodlords are slow, lings tickle zealots, and I don't have enough food for anything else because I need a Queens (lots of food) only to macro and spread creep.
I'm sure you know this being a progamer and all, but warp in removes defenders advantage, a core mechanic of any RTS games. Force field gives you a defensive advantage (also offensive) because you can position yourself as you wish when you are defending. So essentially protoss negates the defenders advantage through warp in and gains a (extra) defensive advantage with force field and just decent positioning. Of course your gateway units have to be weaker. Of course Zerg needs movable defenses. So imagine ANY warp gate push, there's at least too attack locations. Zerg is going to be behind if they cover both (sometimes more) areas with spines and makes enough units to hold. If it was the case protoss could just walk back and take no damage. Then imagine with recall. At any moment (well, 100 energy) you can walk across the map, force a ton of units, use up your forcefield energy and kill a bunch of shit, then recall. It's like an immortal all in, except not all in. How is this going to be balanced, I have no idea.
I'm going off into tangents a bit but my point is that instead of complaining about balance, complain about design. Protoss works in a certain way right now where sure, you can die to a lot of things, but there's also a ton of things you can do to Zerg that can just kill him. Furthermore, after the early game all ins (which you beat by good scouting, let's be serious) Zerg has no way to be aggressive if you haven't fallen behind (ie have collosus or HT by the time they have infestor) so they need to tech to Broodlords. Any Zerg push before that will be all in. If you defend any Zerg attack with minimal damage, a collosus push will win you the game. Meanwhile Protoss has a bunch of aggressive options, granted somewhat all in for certain maps, but not so much for others.
If you give protoss a really good counter to broodlords...you just break the game. Vikings kind of counter broodlords, but Zerg can switch to ultralisk. Against protoss, thats just not doable, every unit beats the ultralisk. Game design makes it that if zerg want to play macro, they have to tech to broodlords, take a bunch of bases which they only defend with mass spines and slowly push across the map. I agree, it's fucking dumb and overpowered, but if it wasn't Zerg wouldn't win.
Sure Protoss has a really hard time against late game Zerg but overall not doing terribly these days. Instead of complaining about balanced, work towards design change because right now there is fine line between Zerg have a late game advantage and Protoss being overpowered.
Now onto your ideas..
*Remove mothership.
Completely agree. Entire games come down to the energy of 1 unit. Protoss can be extremely behind all game and get one good Vortex and win the game decisively. The converse is also true, if you fail to vortex roughly a third of the BL you're never breaking a Zerg. Most likely you're not getting that Vortex though because Zergs are just going to take an hour, pushing slowly to make sure you don't. It's dumb and frustrating for both races.
Remove burrow movement on infestors Hence remove infested terran throwing while burrowed
Interesting idea, but you need to realize how flimsy they are. If they are too easy to snipe, Zerg is going to have a hard time. Understand that the infestor (due to its strenght) is the core of all matchups. Its also keeping TvZ balanced, and it's making ZvZ more than just roach all ins.
Remove upgrades on broodling and infested terrans
It's easy for protoss to say that because your ground upgrades affect all your ground units. Tell me, what do I upgrade as a Zerg? Armor, okay it's good. Range? Melee? Lings are a good mineral dump but countered by your mineral dump. So if I want to play Macro style, I don't get upgrades and double spire or something? Makes me even weaker to all ins, and more likely to all in when Protoss has few upgrades. You need to make upgrading worthwhile for Zerg. It's already not great because your core late game
IMO, making the upgrades less effective on Broodlings and Infested Terrans is better idea.
*Infested terrans in eggs are being ignored if other units are possible to attack, this is an AI bug that needs to be fixed asap.
Sure. Not sure how much that would actually help though. If you have nothing else in range you are attacking eggs...
*Infested terrans can attack air. Makes toss air pretty useless. Could remove this.
Again, the infestor isn't only a ZvP unit man, removing this fucks up every other matchup. The infestor is usually the one and only mobile air attacking unit for a long time in ZvZ and ZvT, they need to attack air...
*You can't fungal something that's fungaled. This way stalkers would be able to blink away and not be stuck forever. *Make infestors smaller so it requires more micro vs storm and collosus. *Fungal doesn't reveal dts, yet they hold them in place and deal damage. *Give infestor a HIVE upgrage for moving underground. Now they just need burrow and they get to move for free. *You cant move while being fungled. Alot of people say this is the issue with infestors, I don't really agree, but sure it's annoying.
This is the type of small changes that need to be tested on the infestor. It helps protoss without breaking the core mechanics of the infestor in all matchups. Good ideas.
*Neutral parasite on mothership means game over. Make it impossible to neutral parasite Mothership. But yeah, I rather see the mothership removed.
Honestly it's a retarded concept that you can even neural a mothership. On the other hand its the only use for neural. Remove both for the better IMO.
Creep gives way too much vision, speed is pretty extreme too. But let's focus on the vision. It's way very hard to get a warpprism or a sneaky zealot flank into the zergs exp late game because of the vision creep gives. I would suggest creep tumours have a vision of 2,5 or something. Then zerg would have to pay more attention to what's going on. * Make pylon like a flower, when it's complete you get your supply and psi, but you can't warp in stuff for 10 seconds. * Give pylon the old range. You said it was made shorter to stop 4gate. My suggestion is way better with the flowerpylon. I get attention disorder every lategame I wanna warp in 20 units and the range is not enough. We can't warp at ramps anymore. We can't warp on buildings or units and in Hots we can't warp up ramps either.. if you don't want us to warp stuff just remove warpgate Could also choose to make units which is warping in really small and become bigger during the process it's warping.
This could be a good trade off. I wish there was a delay on the prism too. With speed you can't catch it with corruptors (your only air attacking unit) so you just got to kill the units it spawns. But in the late game you have no mobile food capable of dealing with zealots. Your only solution is mass spines but its not that strong either. It they really want a building they'll get it, and it never feels like that much of an investment.
I know ZvP feels shitty right now, but it does for Zerg too, it always had. A lot of protoss just warp in a ton of dts and zealots and do no damage but it never seems to be a big deal. I don't win because they wasted a ton of resources and I don't lose because they did good damage, it's just kind of random and luck based. Zerg figured out that the best way to win, aside from wacky all ins, is to go for broodlord and take forever. It's boring for everyone. It's frustrating to play 5000 zerg games, play random in HOTS and win more with protoss than zerg because the macro is so easy and you don't really need to know timings. Then, at the tip top level where Zerg knows every timing and can figure out what a protoss is doing by checking the gases, Protoss can't win. The design is terrible.
On October 20 2012 02:54 YourAdHere wrote: Totally agree that mothership needs to be removed
Good luck winning ANY PvZ late game without the mothership, not saying it should be in the game but with the current balance Z will always win after 20 minutes of game time
yea, because removing the MS was the ONLY thing that was suggested here...
read whats in the spoiler, all he said was remove mothership
On October 20 2012 02:44 DreamTheaterFan wrote: I'm glad some people here mentionned that the issue is not balance, but rather game/race design that makes the matchup boring and anything but dynamic. Sase has some interesting ideas, but our efforts should be focused on breaking the current metagame and find ways to make the matchup more exciting and less reliant on deathballs.
Being aggressive early on would break up the deathball. If you're nonstop fighting with your opponent then it will only become deathball vs deathball if both players are REALLY good and extremely evenly matched. In other words, community maps these days have to go and Blizzard maps need to come back in style.
lol jeez. People should realize those wishlist will never see the day if its heavily favor one race (or defavor w/e). For example if I take your 15 infestor nerf, you could have said : Make the burrowed mouvement researcheble at Lair but remove the Pathogen Glands research, making the infestor spawn with 75 energy. (I am not saying this would be balance, just saying you cant ask for 15 nerfs without giving a damn thing)
My fav part is the Attack move on Warp rally...lol. Really ? You guys (pro) always bitch that the game become easier and easier but want attack move on a rally ?
To me, attack move rally is the same as asking for smart cast Psi storm when more then 6 units cluster.
One thing I dont get, mothership add randomness to the game and you dont like that, thats fine. Why do you build it then ?
The spawning pool change is an awful idea, lol. How is it fair to put a time constraint on the very first building you can build as zerg? This is way too biased for toss.
On October 20 2012 02:44 DreamTheaterFan wrote: I'm glad some people here mentionned that the issue is not balance, but rather game/race design that makes the matchup boring and anything but dynamic. Sase has some interesting ideas, but our efforts should be focused on breaking the current metagame and find ways to make the matchup more exciting and less reliant on deathballs.
Being aggressive early on would break up the deathball. If you're nonstop fighting with your opponent then it will only become deathball vs deathball if both players are REALLY good and extremely evenly matched. In other words, community maps these days have to go and Blizzard maps need to come back in style.
The community can make maps that encourage aggression also. I don't know why they haven't yet, but Blizzard maps are definitely not the way to go. They have proven that they are completely incompetent at map making. To be honest I think the pvz problems can be fixed with better maps if we want to. Ones where zerg doesn't get an easy third and protoss doesn't get an easy FFE. In any case I wish good map makers would stop making these turtle maps, we've reached the point where they aren't working.
Also, I think OP is a good example of why Blizzard doesn't just balance the game around pro's advice. Although you wouldn't think it, some pros have really terrible ideas for the game.
Dustin Browder already addressed why they aren't removing the Mothership even though it is extremely gimmicky in how it decides late game PvZ. He said people like to watch excitement, games and big battles coming down to 1 big moment which is what the Mothership provides.
Not saying I agree or that he's right, but that's what the lead designer said about it.
On October 20 2012 03:47 ChosenSC2 wrote: Dustin Browder already addressed why they aren't removing the Mothership even though it is extremely gimmicky in how it decides late game PvZ. He said people like to watch excitement, games and big battles coming down to 1 big moment which is what the Mothership provides.
Not saying I agree or that he's right, but that's what the lead designer said about it.
Does he really think that? That's not exciting at all it's frustrating, mornic, and bad for game play. Holy shit the creator of starcraft 2 is an idiot guys. Turns out we are doomed after all.
I'm actually a huge fan of the 6m and 7m map concepts, I think that the game should be balanced more about taking bases and pressuring bases. I think requiring more bases for the same mineral amount would make spines a heafty investment. Sure you could mass a bunch, but having them where the opponent attacks can be challenging.
I already have issues when protoss does tricky stuff that my spines weren't setup for. Sase plays at a level much higher then me, but I suspect warp prism and warp prism hallucinations could go a long ways to throwing spine/spore zergs off their game. Warp prism hallucinations are the biggest mind game in SC2. Knowing how many units are needed to respond to a warp prism is a challenge as it changes based on the amount of warpgates and type of units protoss is warping in.
I do agree that infested terrans are too cheap. The fact that a spellcaster worth 2 supply can throw down 8 supply worth of marines doesn't sit right with me. Yes it's possible to run away, but the sitation zerg players use these in tend to be when they are pressuring protoss bases, or when they are already landing fungles and the army can't move. I think something along the lines of 50 energy with a bit longer spawn time and movement speed of a thor would be a better option.
While I value your opinion Sase, it seems your post was a rant of frustration after a long days work. If you would like it to be posted to the b.net forums it can be done, but it may come across smoother if you reformat it with a cooler head.
Its kind of disgusting that in all the threads I read regarding game design with pro-players coming forth to speak their thoughts, the threads instantly fill replays from people that just don't understand the main problem, bash the OP, or don't contribute to the discussion at all.
I for one agree with Sase, while the game might (and I use this word very carefully) be balanced, but design wise the game is in a deplorable state, a lot of times its very predictable and boring and there are many, ways in which it feels unfair for once race or another in some way or another, regardless of balance.
Design wise, 0 supply armies like the kinds that BLs and Infestors can create are indeed broken, it leads to weird and exploitable situations, and it can feel very cheep and unfair if you are fighting against it.
Static defenses not being static and being used as part of an army is also broken, its one of the main reasons static defenses in other games have received so many nerfs/limitations, so you can't slow push with them, without the other guy having any say on it.
Hero units in a game like SC2 are broken, it leads to weird stalemate situations like you have in today's PvZ where the outcome of an entire 30 minute game can be decided in a fraction of a second by either how the vortex went or if the MS was neuraled.
Lastly it is very stupid design wise for a unit to be as strong and as versatile as infestors are. They are literally used in every composition, at nearly all stages of mid and late game and against every race against any and every composition. This is supposed to be a game of strategy and choice, you not only have a choice of where and how you fight, but what you fight with, and infestors taking up 90% of the choices limits strategies and new builds.
Yes, SC2 is a brilliant game in many regards, but it also has some gaping flaws and design issues that have been here since the beta. When people, especially the pro gamers come forth and speak their mind regarding the state of the game, people should take the time to listen and digest what they have said.
Most of what SaSe said is true, there are design issues with zerg and toss and it has lead to today's stagnation in the meta-game, stagnation in map making, and stagnation of gameplay in general.
My suggestions/feedback Since I want to contribute to SaSe's post more then just agree, I want to leave my own toughs and analysis on his proposed changes.
Mothership removed. I agree 100%, hero units aren't meant for a game like SC2, however it will break PvZ late game unless some other fundamental problems are addressed regarding the final composition of zerg. So I'll focus on those more, however if MS was to remain in the game, it definitely needs to be immune to neural parasite.
Infestor changes. Their mobility and "stealthiness" is indeed and issue, the only other comparable unit is Ghost, and while they do have cloak, they move much slower then infestors and are also a lot smaller, meaning Aoe can kill more. A reduction in their size and collision size + a nerf to the movement speed both on and off creep could indeed be worth looking into. The alternative of giving infestors burrow movement from Hive is an option, but with more and more zergs opting for faster Hives I'm not sure how much of an impact it will have.
Infestor's anti-air is a major problem and its a major reason why they are so versatile, they can not only lock things in place but can also summon units for no cost to deal damage to air units. I believe that, even if you where to make infested terrans unable to shoot air, fungal hitting and damaging air would still be a major problem. Zergs will still get a large number of infestors to deal with all issues and might add a small number of corrupters into the fold to deal some extra damage while units are pinned by fungal.
I think fungal would be better off if it was re-worked into a slow that does no damage. This + IT nerf would force zerg to get more anti-air into their compositions and it might detract enough supply away from BLs and Inferstors that it could make ZvP late game manageable without a Mothership. It could also make infestors have diminishing returns.
At the moment Infestors don't have diminishing returns like Ghosts or HT. HT, if you make too many at some point they become harder to manage and easier to clump and it, and not all of them do damage at the same time because storm is damage over time. Ghost, while good for EMP, aren't that good DPS and their movement speed and attack speed is pitiful compared to marines and marauders, to the point where having to many may come back to hurt you at some point.
Infestors are always useful in large numbers, because you can always make use of the energy via fungals and ITs, these also do something the other spell casters don't do, they allow the infestor to fight without endangering itself, at least not to the extent that other casters do. However, if fungal was merely a slow with no damage, then having too many infestors would possibly hurt as they might not deal enough damage to be justifiable once ITs can be dealt with.
Note However such a change to infestors would require that all other zerg units get a buff in some way shape or form to compensate, to what magnitude would require a lot of testing to figure out. However if say, you also re-work FFs and WGs, (because the design of both of those is equally as broken as fungal but for different reasons), and nerf them, you could have enough justification to buff standard GW units, if less reliance was put on the sentry for GS and FF, then you'd also see maybe a lot more skirmishes, fights and pressures from protoss, you know, something fun that doesn't require a specific timing.
Conclusion and TLDR I agree with a lot of SaSe's points I believe both zergs and tosses have fundamental design flaws that lead to today's stagnation in all aspects of the game, be it development of new builds, maps or gameplay in general. Mothership shouldn't be in the game, but to remove it would require a re-work of both zerg and protoss.
Infestors could use a mobility nerf of some sort, either a movement speed nerf on and off creep or the burrow movement being Hive tech. Infestors need to have both fungal and ITs nerfed in some way to make air toss viable, nerfing just one won't suffice.
If fungal was changed to a slow without damage, it would change infestor, turning it into a unit with diminishing returns, greatly decrease its power and would force more supply away from the infestor and BL into anti-air or other units to defend BLs.
If Infestors are nerfed, all zerg and toss needs to be re-balanced, how much only testing can determine. Final thoughts. While I agree a lot with SaSe and I know there are lots of design flaws in the game, I also realize that, no changes will occur unless more people become aware of these issues and start doing something about it. At the moment this community is to aggressive and to focused on witch hunting any pro gamers that voice their thoughts on balance or design, regardless of how right they might be.
This community needs to realize that pro gamers aren't bashing SC2 when they post this, they love the game, that's why they keep playing it, but when they post to point out the flaws they do it with the intention of maybe having the game changed for the best.
I as well love SC2 and I want it to be rid of the flaws that have plagued it for so long, matter of fact is, these same issues that pro gamers are talking about now regarding P and Z, are issues that have been pointed out and known all the way back in the beta, and yet the community has chosen to ignore it. Perhaps its time to really do something about it, something other then trying to bash pro gamers or tell them how you don't agree. Otherwise you reap what you sow.
Kudos to the people who actually posted constructive criticism.
It's funny how all these "constructive criticism" posts in support of this drivel come to the same conclusion, that Protoss and Zerg both need changes, but apparently the only problem with Protoss is the mothership, and the laundry list of needed nerfs for Zerg are several paragraphs long.
I dont agree with everything but infestors are just terribly OP. Especially fungal growth. Fungal growth is good against almost every unit in the game and makes it so that zerg needs very little dedicated anti-air. Zerg needs to be nerfed because right now WoL is, as Avilo would say, Zergcraft 2.
Sorry, Sase as a Terran I have to disagree with a lot of things that you suggested. Some things are valid points but others would just break the game even more.
On October 20 2012 02:54 YourAdHere wrote: Totally agree that mothership needs to be removed
Good luck winning ANY PvZ late game without the mothership, not saying it should be in the game but with the current balance Z will always win after 20 minutes of game time
yea, because removing the MS was the ONLY thing that was suggested here...
He was commenting on the other guys post.
I think Sase is a bit to emotionally involved in this, Every Protoss is frustrated with pvz so they just immortal sentry all-in because the meta game is all-in or passive to infestor broodlord. There is no in between. You can try and be aggressive and punish greedy thirds but Zergs are only getting better and better stopping those 7:30 4 gate pressure and it's so easily scouted (Fast+1 weapons)
I really want to see a distinction between gateways and warpgates making a strategical decision. Allowing for a slight buff to zealot/stalker and possibly removing force field or changing it so it isn't the only thing that stops protoss from dying tell colossus.
wow. seems way too biased from protoss point of view. though i think the mothership mechanic kinda sux. Neural isnt the problem (i mean if a protoss lets his mothership get neuraled (range 7), when vortex has range 9, the protoss deserves to lose imo)
nerfing infestor in any way would completely break all matchups for zerg atm. not that its bad. but its not good on first sight either.
On October 20 2012 04:07 sitromit wrote: It's funny how all these "constructive criticism" posts in support of this drivel come to the same conclusion, that Protoss and Zerg both need changes, but apparently the only problem with Protoss is the mothership, and the laundry list of needed nerfs for Zerg are several paragraphs long.
All I have to say to this is LOL.
Sure, include colossus if you think it is too good.
But answer me: What other protoss unit do you think is too strong vs zerg or in general?
On October 20 2012 07:21 amaDeus wrote: wow. seems way too biased from protoss point of view. though i think the mothership mechanic kinda sux. Neural isnt the problem (i mean if a protoss lets his mothership get neuraled (range 7), when vortex has range 9, the protoss deserves to lose imo)
nerfing infestor in any way would completely break all matchups for zerg atm. not that its bad. but its not good on first sight either.
Yea because you want to Vortex a single Infestor coming to neural your Mothership. If you actually want to win a late-game PvZ by getting a good vortex you tend to have to poke your Mothership forward sometimes, and if you're too aggressive with your ground army it's just going to get chain fungalled and die which means you instantly lose.
On October 20 2012 07:21 amaDeus wrote: wow. seems way too biased from protoss point of view. though i think the mothership mechanic kinda sux. Neural isnt the problem (i mean if a protoss lets his mothership get neuraled (range 7), when vortex has range 9, the protoss deserves to lose imo)
nerfing infestor in any way would completely break all matchups for zerg atm. not that its bad. but its not good on first sight either.
Yea because you want to Vortex a single Infestor coming to neural your Mothership. If you actually want to win a late-game PvZ by getting a good vortex you tend to have to poke your Mothership forward sometimes, and if you're too aggressive with your ground army it's just going to get chain fungalled and die which means you instantly lose.
nope. if a single infestor comes, ur collossi are gonna burn him before he can even begin to cast shit. if ur army gets chain fungaled their broodlords have to attack and then u can vortex them.
On October 20 2012 02:54 YourAdHere wrote: Totally agree that mothership needs to be removed
Good luck winning ANY PvZ late game without the mothership, not saying it should be in the game but with the current balance Z will always win after 20 minutes of game time
yea, because removing the MS was the ONLY thing that was suggested here...
read whats in the spoiler, all he said was remove mothership
that's just some idiot talking, this thread is about SaSe's ideas, not some random scrub's. And SaSe isn't just calling for removing the MS, there is a ton of other shit mentioned here and I thought you should know that.
good ideas, definitely would add alot of intensity to game but for some reason i don't believe blizzard would make a good and exciting game like they used to
On October 20 2012 07:21 amaDeus wrote: wow. seems way too biased from protoss point of view. though i think the mothership mechanic kinda sux. Neural isnt the problem (i mean if a protoss lets his mothership get neuraled (range 7), when vortex has range 9, the protoss deserves to lose imo)
nerfing infestor in any way would completely break all matchups for zerg atm. not that its bad. but its not good on first sight either.
Yea because you want to Vortex a single Infestor coming to neural your Mothership. If you actually want to win a late-game PvZ by getting a good vortex you tend to have to poke your Mothership forward sometimes, and if you're too aggressive with your ground army it's just going to get chain fungalled and die which means you instantly lose.
nope. if a single infestor comes, ur collossi are gonna burn him before he can even begin to cast shit. if ur army gets chain fungaled their broodlords have to attack and then u can vortex them.
Yea your army gets chain fungalled and because your opponent isn't an idiot their Brood Lords are spread out.
On October 19 2012 12:40 RMonkeyF wrote: I read until the part where SaSe concluded that terran could lift buildings, zerg could see everything, and toss has nothing. Then i laughed out loud, facepalmed, and resumed the usually thinking of "How is this guy allowed to post on any forum."
Sorry for the low post count, but I was moved to contribute. I find it absolutely laughable that anyone could post anything of the nature that Sase has posted here, completely disregarding statistics or any evidence and just saying PvZ is broken. How can you so blatantly ignore WCS Asia's protoss representation and come out with something like this? I'm not even saying that the matchup is enjoyable to play in it's current state, the lategame is incredibly stale having played it from both sides but really, nerfing zerg is a proposterous suggestion when protoss has a better winrate in korea, at the top level.
If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier.
On October 19 2012 12:40 RMonkeyF wrote: I read until the part where SaSe concluded that terran could lift buildings, zerg could see everything, and toss has nothing. Then i laughed out loud, facepalmed, and resumed the usually thinking of "How is this guy allowed to post on any forum."
Sorry for the low post count, but I was moved to contribute. I find it absolutely laughable that anyone could post anything of the nature that Sase has posted here, completely disregarding statistics or any evidence and just saying PvZ is broken. How can you so blatantly ignore WCS Asia's protoss representation and come out with something like this? I'm not even saying that the matchup is enjoyable to play in it's current state, the lategame is incredibly stale having played it from both sides but really, nerfing zerg is a proposterous suggestion when protoss has a better winrate in korea, at the top level.
you're completely missing the point of the post aren't you?
On October 19 2012 12:40 RMonkeyF wrote: I read until the part where SaSe concluded that terran could lift buildings, zerg could see everything, and toss has nothing. Then i laughed out loud, facepalmed, and resumed the usually thinking of "How is this guy allowed to post on any forum."
Sorry for the low post count, but I was moved to contribute. I find it absolutely laughable that anyone could post anything of the nature that Sase has posted here, completely disregarding statistics or any evidence and just saying PvZ is broken. How can you so blatantly ignore WCS Asia's protoss representation and come out with something like this? I'm not even saying that the matchup is enjoyable to play in it's current state, the lategame is incredibly stale having played it from both sides but really, nerfing zerg is a proposterous suggestion when protoss has a better winrate in korea, at the top level.
Statistics are misleading.
Do you think this game is near balance because of percentages? There are way too many small things that can happen in games that do not pertain AT ALL to balance.
The truth is at the moment I believe starcraft to be at its worst point since its very early months of existence. The game used to be hyper-active with fun (but imba) units/buildings such as the speed-reaper, rax before depot, pylon warp-in distance, void ray and so many more.
What I personally feel has happened is that we've gone in the ABSOLUTE opposite direction since WoL's release. We have gotten to a point where the vast majority of units have been WATERED DOWN for the sake of balance and as such numbed the game of any inherent 'fun' it had in it, all-the-while killing the elements of the game that made it entertaining for the SPECTATOR.
Macro games are awesome, but so many timings that were in the game were just flat-out removed because they were 'semi-balanced'. These provided tension and awesomeness for new viewers to watch, not to mention variety. Now we're forced to watch PvZ and TvZ where a Z just gets X amount of queens, sits back for 12 minutes, makes drones then makes 10 infestors and presses F on enemy armies disabling any potential micro-ability (and skill).
Example: They were imbalanced then, but the usage of speed-reapers in the Morrow/Idra game at IEM in 2010 was hilariously fun and got many friends into the game. IdrA actually could've held quite easily but seeing that tension there in action was one amazing part of the game that has sadly gone missing.
TLDR; Blizzard has forsaken tension and exciting situations for 'pure balance' and has missed the mark anyway. We've been left with a carcass that's neither fun nor balanced.
On October 19 2012 12:40 RMonkeyF wrote: I read until the part where SaSe concluded that terran could lift buildings, zerg could see everything, and toss has nothing. Then i laughed out loud, facepalmed, and resumed the usually thinking of "How is this guy allowed to post on any forum."
Sorry for the low post count, but I was moved to contribute. I find it absolutely laughable that anyone could post anything of the nature that Sase has posted here, completely disregarding statistics or any evidence and just saying PvZ is broken. How can you so blatantly ignore WCS Asia's protoss representation and come out with something like this? I'm not even saying that the matchup is enjoyable to play in it's current state, the lategame is incredibly stale having played it from both sides but really, nerfing zerg is a proposterous suggestion when protoss has a better winrate in korea, at the top level.
Statistics are misleading.
Do you think this game is near balance because of percentages? There are way too many small things that can happen in games that do not pertain AT ALL to balance.
The truth is at the moment I believe starcraft to be at its worst point since its very early months of existence. The game used to be hyper-active with fun (but imba) units/buildings such as the speed-reaper, rax before depot, pylon warp-in distance, void ray and so many more.
What I personally feel has happened is that we've gone in the ABSOLUTE opposite direction since WoL's release. We have gotten to a point where the vast majority of units have been WATERED DOWN for the sake of balance and as such numbed the game of any inherent 'fun' it had in it, all-the-while killing the elements of the game that made it entertaining for the SPECTATOR.
Macro games are awesome, but so many timings that were in the game was just flat-out removed because they were 'semi-balanced'. These provided tension and awesomeness for new viewers to watch.
Example: They were imbalanced then, but the usage of speed-reapers in the Morrow/Idra game at IEM in 2010 was hilariously fun and got many friends into the game. IdrA actually could've held quite easily but seeing that tension there in action was one amazing part of the game that has sadly gone missing.
TLDR; Blizzard has forsaken tension and exciting situations for 'pure balance' and his missed the mark anyway. We've been left with a carcass that's neither fun nor balanced.
All I could possibly infer from that post is that you'd rather the game be imbalanced if more fun strategies were involved which entertained the viewer, and as for the comment about percentages not accurately representing balance, if there's a trend dramatically above or below 50% then it's blatant that there's a problem far deeper than the "Small things" you're referencing. Well, unfortunately, as the player, i'd like the game to be at least reasonably fair, and it seems i'm not alone, as people are moved to create threads like this complaining about balance problems. If you think you'd genuinely enjoy playing a race which has to outplay the other races to win just because the strategies you can deploy with other races are more entertaining to observe then I sincerely hope you're never allowed to balance any game.
Also, regarding your comment about fungal, I hope you'll be removing or making drastic changes to sentries in your new imbalanced game, too.
Protoss pro who is extremely bad in matchup makes a giant nerf post, everyone jumps on the opportunity to join in on the whine fest about how every single Zerg unit, even creep tumors, are overpowered.
This thread is sad and hilarious at the same time.
Protoss pro who is extremely bad in matchup makes a giant nerf post, everyone jumps on the opportunity to join in on the whine fest about how every single Zerg unit, even creep tumors, are overpowered.
This thread is sad and hilarious at the same time.
vote for sticky
Yup, Sase I thought you were above this. I am disappoint.
On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier.
I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will.
Protoss pro who is extremely bad in matchup makes a giant nerf post, everyone jumps on the opportunity to join in on the whine fest about how every single Zerg unit, even creep tumors, are overpowered.
This thread is sad and hilarious at the same time.
This makes a lot of sense.
What's even more funny is there are people who read the OP and think those suggestions are useful. Wut
On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier.
I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will.
One of the main flaws/imbalances in the PvZ match-up right now is how Zerg pretty much has 100% free scouting at will anytime they want to move the overlords in.. While as Protoss it is nearly impossible to get a full scout after the 3:30-4 min mark.
Either the overlord speed buff needs to get nerfed back down to what it was.. OR the queen range buff needs to be reduced again (either one, not saying both). The glaring problem with these buffs to Zerg, is that both of these changes were intended to help Zerg out in ZvT.. And it just ended up also buffing the shit out of zerg in ZvP also by making probe scouting nearly impossible, and giving Zerg an even easier time scouting the already transparent Protoss main.
The majority of the complaints about Protoss early-game v.s Zerg are mainly as result of P's inability to reliably scout zerg.. Its more of a frustrating "roll the dice" / "guessing game" type of thing right now.
Any Zerg players reading my post here thinking "LOL Blasphemy!!"... I would urge you to roll as P if you're Masters+ and try playing a few PvZ's on ladder if your protoss play isn't too bad. You will see what I mean right away about how awful it is trying to scout out one of the 8 early game cheeses you could be hit with within the first 8 mins of the game v.s Z.
On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier.
I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will.
Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O
In the late game yes, that's what I think. Warp in is very forgivable in response to harassment.
On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier.
I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will.
Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O
In the late game yes, that's what I think. Warp in is very forgivable in response to harassment.
You have speedlings (disposable units that can move at pretty much the speed of light across the map and snipe out expos), etc. Please don't ever say that Zerg has bad harass options at any point in the game.
As long as speedlings exist in this game.. Zerg will never have "bad" or "mediocre" harass options.
Protoss pro who is extremely bad in matchup makes a giant nerf post, everyone jumps on the opportunity to join in on the whine fest about how every single Zerg unit, even creep tumors, are overpowered.
This thread is sad and hilarious at the same time.
vote for sticky
Yup, Sase I thought you were above this. I am disappoint.
Ugh, what sitromit wrote was misleading enough to basically be false.
If you're going to throw numbers at people, they need to be relevant numbers with meaning behind them. I'm disappointed in you, sitromit. Very disappointed.
What SaSe is saying here may or may not have merit, but judge it based on the merits of his arguments, not based on flawed numbers that are flung at you. At least do some research.
On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier.
I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will.
Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O
In the late game yes, that's what I think. Warp in is very forgivable in response to harassment.
You have speedlings (disposable units that can move at pretty much the speed of light across the map and snipe out expos), etc. Please don't ever say that Zerg has bad harass options at any point in the game.
As long as speedlings exist in this game.. Zerg will never have "bad" or "mediocre" harass options.
Speed is irrelevant when you can warp in defences instantly at the harassment location. Essentially the mineral sinks in the lategame for P and Z are not equal. Lings/Spinecrawlers vs Cannons/Warp Prisms/Zealots. The latter does much better against expos than the former IMO.
On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier.
I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will.
Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O
In the late game yes, that's what I think. Warp in is very forgivable in response to harassment.
You have speedlings (disposable units that can move at pretty much the speed of light across the map and snipe out expos), etc. Please don't ever say that Zerg has bad harass options at any point in the game.
As long as speedlings exist in this game.. Zerg will never have "bad" or "mediocre" harass options.
Speed is irrelevant when you can warp in defences instantly at the harassment location. Essentially the mineral sinks in the lategame for P and Z are not equal. Lings/Spinecrawlers vs Cannons/Warp Prisms/Zealots. The latter does much better against expos than the former IMO.
Since you are talking about lategame, you must know that reactively warping 5 units lategame is essentially useless since you don't have the firepower to repel anything in time, and that warping more than 5 units means you always keep 15 or 20 free supply so that you can warp, which is pretty much the same as making 10 to 15 units stay at home for every race. Protoss cannot hold late game harrass without splitting his main army; reactive warpins are only to buy time.
Zerg, on the other hand, has the speed of light units to be able to react to harrassement way faster than any other race. Also they have the most unforgiving unit (infestor). Also being able to free up worker supply by building static (but movable?) defenses late game is pretty damn useful.
On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier.
I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will.
Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O
In the late game yes, that's what I think. Warp in is very forgivable in response to harassment.
Forcing a Protoss to spend minerals on 10 Zealots with only Zerglings sounds like good harassment to me. And then there's baneling/ling drops, Infested Terran (yea try warping in stuff vs. a bunch of them), mutalisk (not really late-game but still). Protoss harass is nothing compared to Zerg harass, especially late late game when there are spines everywhere.
On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier.
I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will.
Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O
In the late game yes, that's what I think. Warp in is very forgivable in response to harassment.
Forcing a Protoss to spend minerals on 10 Zealots with only Zerglings sounds like good harassment to me. And then there's baneling/ling drops, Infested Terran (yea try warping in stuff vs. a bunch of them), mutalisk (not really late-game but still). Protoss harass is nothing compared to Zerg harass, especially late late game when there are spines everywhere.
Doesn't sound good to me. That warpin saved your expo, a lot of your workers and killed a LOT of lings. An equivalent warpin at a zerg expo will kill the expo without fail. Yes zerg have a fast unit to respond to harass, but that unit is the zergling. A unit that trades very unfavourably with its mineral sink equivalent - the unit most likely to be harassing in this manner in the late game.
Infested terrans are good yes. Nerfing burrow movement would make them less so. In my experience (say split map entombed), ling runbys don't do much against cannoned expos. Zerg harass doesn't need a nerf.
(I actually forgot about baneling drops, so this may change my mind a little if I can work them back into my play)
Remove "Stick to ground" feature of fungal growth for land units however keep it for air units. Increase radius to hit more units and a 25% reduction in speed and not be able to cast spells (Whether or not this includes stim I cannot decide however it should definitely affect stalkers because they have a faster move speed than marines without stim SEE BELOW) inclusive of air units AND Make fungal active for longer, idk how much longer but make it longer so that A) it cannot be cast every couple of seconds halting movement and causing massive dmg and it forces micro from players because they can still move -25% and fungal is chained far slower. e.g. I agree with removing Motherhship because not WC3 etc. This way things like blink stalkers for example: More of them are fungaled, they cannot blink away and have their move speed reduced by 25% however they can run away which seems still really bad however I believe it will force Protoss with blink stalkers to spread them far more to minimalise fungal growth spread and to allow for blinks stalkers to be more easily micro'd to the back whilst waiting for fungal to wear off so that they are not completely immobile during fungal
Another balance whine that the community thinks is okay because it's a pro player that said it... But if random platinum player "X" makes the same exact post with the same analysis, everyone would be telling him he should learn to play the game, and would probably be temporarily banned for making the thread.
It's really interesting just how similar the TL forums are to the Blizzard forums but the TL forums are "better" because that's where the pros go to complain about balance.
Ok. It's fair to say this came out very wrong and I didn't get the response I wanted at all. Thanks to everyone who responded more than 'biased motherfucker'. It has been nice to read your views aswell. I wanted to open a discussion, I failed. I should have split it up better I think to what should be done to WOL and what should be done to HOTS. The nexus cannon thing was obviously a HOTS change.
It's ok the community goes at me and say I'm full of shit and all changes sucks. I don't feel like it's ok gowser, scarlett and darkforce replies with ashort line of I'm biased and I wanna nerf zerg too much. I said ONE or TWO changes would be ok for infestors, personally I would like to see infested terrans gets targeted in egg form and HIVE upgrade for underground movement. Also creep should get less vision because it's too easy for zerg to spot every drop, every warp prism. It's basically like maphack lategame. As protoss it's a little bit annoying, but for terrans it must be so much worse. The thing about thing about timing on pool was mainly because of lower lower leagues. It's not fun for anyone below GM to face a 6pool and lose even if they scout it at 9 pylon. It removes so much fun in the game. 6pools is not easy to stop at all. But like I said, I would totally fine with a rampblocker you can salvage since then if you scout zerg 9 scout it's possible to hold of the 6pool outside your base(like on ladder maps but these days but on the same time there is no reason to practise it since all tournaments use ramp blockers).
About toss I said they should make toss pylons 10 seconds delay for warpins, might not seem like alot but would help alot against every kind of 2 base allin. It's 10 seconds extra zerg gets to kill a pylon. I said remove mothership. Guess darkforce and gowser consider this a nerf to zerg too. I even said phoenix could be removed or reworked. I meant the ability to lift should be removed obviously. But this was more of a hots change but I would be ok with it removed in WOL because it makes pvp so random atm. But it's hard to argue with them when they just tell me I'm biased. I guess they are enjoying the freeride they are still having. It's hard to argue with someone who responds like that. The 'buffs' they talk about is not really buffs I think. How can they argue about it should be possible to run straight through a warped in zealot or a probe.
Most importantly I hope AI changes, rampblocker issue, map position and the priority list gets fixed. I think these are big issues atm.
And last I wanted to say thank you all for reading and for your response. As I said it turned out bad. But now I know until next time, or I mean, there wont be any next time. At least not here. This was the wrong place to post it for sure so sorry to everyone I offended and wasted time of. Happy news is Blizzard took notice and invited me to their private forums so guess somethings were good ideas or changes at least. As I said before, I didn't want to make 10 changes to infestors and most of these thigns were just ideas that _COULD_ be implented, not had to be. More like brainstorming about things that could have been done. I want a game where you can make small mistakes and catch up by playing perfect. Take care everyone and be happy every day
Thank you sase thank you this is so true PvZ is so stupid. I myself cant take playing against them and I just get mad because they keep remaxing to 200/200 while you cant and you only have three bases and then the zerg takes a ton more and you just have to hope you can defend.
One day there will be a whine thread about buffing protosses defense against mutas, while still being able to contemplate leaving their base without losing it. Until then, thoroughly disappointed. Infestors... big whoop. And you guys have horrible intentions/foresight. Sase is grandmasters on the Korean server. How many non Koreans can say that? You want to bash the guy for not agreeing with his opinions? Stupid. All that does is lead to the top players remaining silent. Personally, I'd rather hear what they have to say whether I agree or not. You probably don't agree with how they play the game either, thinking your way is better or simply not understanding why they do what they do. Does that make you more right than them? No, probably just more clueless than them. The better one is at the game, odds are the chances of them being in the right/ideas on balance increase. Whether they're right or not, more reverence should be shown even if you're in disagreement.
True story, I would love toss pylon to be like the terran depot, it would make so much difference against zerg, also I think terran has too many advantages in trade base situations, cause we can't lift up our nexus and are always being revealed, all the terran has to do is lift his buildings, and if he has less army/no army, just wait for a draw when toss has no nexus ans not enough minerals to build one other, even if he has been dominating the game, and has more groud army than the terran at the end. Won't tell you that a 2 medivacs drop easily snipes nexuses.
On October 20 2012 15:10 SaSe wrote: Ok. It's fair to say this came out very wrong and I didn't get the response I wanted at all. Thanks to everyone who responded more than 'biased motherfucker'. It has been nice to read your views aswell. I wanted to open a discussion, I failed. I should have split it up better I think to what should be done to WOL and what should be done to HOTS. The nexus cannon thing was obviously a HOTS change.
It's ok the community goes at me and say I'm full of shit and all changes sucks. I don't feel like it's ok gowser, scarlett and darkforce replies with ashort line of I'm biased and I wanna nerf zerg too much. I said ONE or TWO changes would be ok for infestors, personally I would like to see infested terrans gets targeted in egg form and HIVE upgrade for underground movement. Also creep should get less vision because it's too easy for zerg to spot every drop, every warp prism. It's basically like maphack lategame. As protoss it's a little bit annoying, but for terrans it must be so much worse. The thing about thing about timing on pool was mainly because of lower lower leagues. It's not fun for anyone below GM to face a 6pool and lose even if they scout it at 9 pylon. It removes so much fun in the game. 6pools is not easy to stop at all. But like I said, I would totally fine with a rampblocker you can salvage since then if you scout zerg 9 scout it's possible to hold of the 6pool outside your base(like on ladder maps but these days but on the same time there is no reason to practise it since all tournaments use ramp blockers).
About toss I said they should make toss pylons 10 seconds delay for warpins, might not seem like alot but would help alot against every kind of 2 base allin. It's 10 seconds extra zerg gets to kill a pylon. I said remove mothership. Guess darkforce and gowser consider this a nerf to zerg too. I even said phoenix could be removed or reworked. I meant the ability to lift should be removed obviously. But this was more of a hots change but I would be ok with it removed in WOL because it makes pvp so random atm. But it's hard to argue with them when they just tell me I'm biased. I guess they are enjoying the freeride they are still having. It's hard to argue with someone who responds like that. The 'buffs' they talk about is not really buffs I think. How can they argue about it should be possible to run straight through a warped in zealot or a probe.
Most importantly I hope AI changes, rampblocker issue, map position and the priority list gets fixed. I think these are big issues atm.
And last I wanted to say thank you all for reading and for your response. As I said it turned out bad. But now I know until next time, or I mean, there wont be any next time. At least not here. This was the wrong place to post it for sure so sorry to everyone I offended and wasted time of. Happy news is Blizzard took notice and invited me to their private forums so guess somethings were good ideas or changes at least. As I said before, I didn't want to make 10 changes to infestors and most of these thigns were just ideas that _COULD_ be implented, not had to be. More like brainstorming about things that could have been done. I want a game where you can make small mistakes and catch up by playing perfect. Take care everyone and be happy every day
Thanks for the thread SaSe, its sad that you received so many flames, people are too quick to look at stats and too easily forget that at MLG Spring you actually went trough and killed Violet, Leenock and Stephano to place top 4, your PvZ is more then adequate to be relevant, but alas people only see what they want to see.
I'm glad you got a invite to Blizzard's private forums, keep posting and make the most out of it, take any good ideas you have and see. Maybe, if enough people post, Blizzard will take notice and listen. Don't give up, we need people to speak up when they perceive a problem.
I dont understand why people in this thread think, Sase decleares zerg as op! He is talking about something else completely. His opinion is, that Toss forgives mistakes from the player the least in comparison to zerg. He backs that up stating the easy recovery of zerg from a 6 pool, although there is a high chance protoss can die to it and the unability for protoss to score build order wins like zerg. Moreover late game in pvz, where every competent zerg can get to if he plays his cards right. (mutas, 100 drones, 5 hatches----> infestors 20-30 spine crawlers) . In lategame toss has no reliable composition to deal with bl/infestor like sase said. And you should believe him, he plays this game competitively and has all time in the world to figure it out. Moreover zerg has fungal which is basicly stopping all micro from protoss. If toss makes one misstep he looses half of his army. Defending for zerg has become a lot easier and still toss has to place perfect forcefields to stay alive. Then he makes a lot of Changes to adress these Design Issues. I agree with his statement in that zerg is the easiest to play and the most forviging race at least from master- gsl. But I also think Terran is the least forgiving race, we should keep that in mind. Then however this post contributes directly to the problems at hand in PvZ. Bottom line: It is not a balance post its a post dealing with design issues
On October 20 2012 15:10 SaSe wrote: I don't feel like it's ok gowser, scarlett and darkforce replies with ashort line of I'm biased and I wanna nerf zerg too much. I said ONE or TWO changes would be ok for infestors, personally I would like to see infested terrans gets targeted in egg form and HIVE upgrade for underground movement. Also creep should get less vision because it's too easy for zerg to spot every drop, every warp prism. It's basically like maphack lategame.
Please show me where I said this, I don't like having words put into my mouth
(Also making units autotarget infested terran eggs would be a huge buff for Zerg ~ they have 100 hp, 1 armor(I think?), and are not considered light OR armored while in egg form ~ Zerg could just spam in middle of army, and it would make them even more broken vs mech and waste collosus attacks away from lings)
What the hell is wrong with this community? Sase never said anything about all of his ideas being "needed changes", he posted a bunch of things saying that a combination of 2-3 of them being implemented, while also making some changes to P to compensate for balance would make the game more enjoyable to both play and watch.
Its fine if you think his ideas are stupid, its ok if you think he is abad player and his opinion sucks - but its downright unfair to call him a balance whiner who just wants zerg nerfed. The OP was pretty clearly not a "zomg nerf zerg!!!" post, idk how are people seeing it as such....
short and sweet post, infested terran eggs should have 0 armor and fungal should slow down units(while still preventing blink). interceptors should regain health once back in the carrier
On October 20 2012 15:10 SaSe wrote: I don't feel like it's ok gowser, scarlett and darkforce replies with ashort line of I'm biased and I wanna nerf zerg too much. I said ONE or TWO changes would be ok for infestors, personally I would like to see infested terrans gets targeted in egg form and HIVE upgrade for underground movement. Also creep should get less vision because it's too easy for zerg to spot every drop, every warp prism. It's basically like maphack lategame.
Please show me where I said this, I don't like having words put into my mouth
(Also making units autotarget infested terran eggs would be a huge buff for Zerg ~ they have 100 hp, 1 armor(I think?), and are not considered light OR armored while in egg form ~ Zerg could just spam in middle of army, and it would make them even more broken vs mech and waste collosus attacks away from lings)
On October 20 2012 09:16 Enzymatic wrote: One of the main flaws/imbalances in the PvZ match-up right now is how Zerg pretty much has 100% free scouting at will anytime they want to move the overlords in.. While as Protoss it is nearly impossible to get a full scout after the 3:30-4 min mark.
Either the overlord speed buff needs to get nerfed back down to what it was.. OR the queen range buff needs to be reduced again (either one, not saying both). The glaring problem with these buffs to Zerg, is that both of these changes were intended to help Zerg out in ZvT.. And it just ended up also buffing the shit out of zerg in ZvP also by making probe scouting nearly impossible, and giving Zerg an even easier time scouting the already transparent Protoss main.
The majority of the complaints about Protoss early-game v.s Zerg are mainly as result of P's inability to reliably scout zerg.. Its more of a frustrating "roll the dice" / "guessing game" type of thing right now.
Any Zerg players reading my post here thinking "LOL Blasphemy!!"... I would urge you to roll as P if you're Masters+ and try playing a few PvZ's on ladder if your protoss play isn't too bad. You will see what I mean right away about how awful it is trying to scout out one of the 8 early game cheeses you could be hit with within the first 8 mins of the game v.s Z.
This isn't a zerg nerf scenario. Those zerg buffs you mentioned were warranted and improved the game as a whole IMO. THe fact is protoss scouting is lacklustre in all matchups, even PvP, where it just isn't a balance issue due to symmetry. Hopefully this is being addressed in HoTS with the capability of the mommacore to scout and recent changes to hallucinate.
About the creep tumor thing, isn't there plenty of opportunity to make a bigger deal out of clearing creep as Protoss? Perhaps by having a warp prism+stalker/zealot unit drops+observer hit squad. More observers, more active creep clearing. Creep is important both to spread and to clear. Is this really that hard to do as Protoss? I don't see Terrans having many problems taking care of creep, and they don't have a cloaked detector, plus, warp prisms with speed upgrade coupled with a couple of observers should be able to make creep clearing rather easy (and fast).
On October 20 2012 18:40 Brainiak wrote: I dont understand why people in this thread think, Sase decleares zerg as op! He is talking about something else completely. His opinion is, that Toss forgives mistakes from the player the least in comparison to zerg.
And yet Zerg has the most unforgiving macro mechanic of all three races. Being "too busy" to inject will lose you games all the time. Chrono is basically a part of your build and mostly irrelevant afterwards and you can always drop late MULE-s, albeit with some opportunity cost. I can mention many other more relevant examples... if you do hatch first and get cannon rushed, a small mistake in defending the cannon rush will lose you the game. Not scouting a 2gate in time will lose you the game. Overdroning just one cycle against any gate/robo all-in will lose you the game. Not splitting your broodlords just once in a battle will lose you the game.
He backs that up stating the easy recovery of zerg from a 6 pool, although there is a high chance protoss can die to it and the unability for protoss to score build order wins like zerg. Moreover late game in pvz, where every competent zerg can get to if he plays his cards right. (mutas, 100 drones, 5 hatches----> infestors 20-30 spine crawlers) . In lategame toss has no reliable composition to deal with bl/infestor like sase said. And you should believe him, he plays this game competitively and has all time in the world to figure it out. Moreover zerg has fungal which is basicly stopping all micro from protoss. If toss makes one misstep he looses half of his army.
Zerg has no composition to deal with Protoss mid/late game except bl/infestor/queen/spinecrawler. Moreover, Protoss has vortex which basically can kill your entire army if you make one control error.
Defending for zerg has become a lot easier and still toss has to place perfect forcefields to stay alive. Then he makes a lot of Changes to adress these Design Issues. I agree with his statement in that zerg is the easiest to play and the most forviging race at least from master- gsl. But I also think Terran is the least forgiving race, we should keep that in mind. Then however this post contributes directly to the problems at hand in PvZ. Bottom line: It is not a balance post its a post dealing with design issues
Bottom line: it's a biased balanced post, much like your own. It doesn't even attempt to really explore the issues from all sides. Compare that to Gretorp's post, for example, and you will see what a design post looks like.
why do you speak of yourself in 3rd person in the title of your post? that comes across as a little self-important...
thereis a lot of quite good "how to change sc2" threads already, what we didnt need is a subjective protoss balance whine thread masked as a "whats wrong with sc2" thread
also, most of your suggestions are awful tbh. a timer on building a pool? its nerfing all options in early game that brought us to the stale "macro for 10 minutes then slam deathballs into each other" metagame we have today
On October 20 2012 19:17 summerloud wrote: why do you speak of yourself in 3rd person in the title of your post? that comes across as a little self-important...
Disregarding the rest of your post, pointing out something as insignificant as this is just spiteful and unnecessary.
On October 20 2012 18:40 Brainiak wrote: I dont understand why people in this thread think, Sase decleares zerg as op! He is talking about something else completely. His opinion is, that Toss forgives mistakes from the player the least in comparison to zerg.
And yet Zerg has the most unforgiving macro mechanic of all three races. Being "too busy" to inject will lose you games all the time. Chrono is basically a part of your build and mostly irrelevant afterwards and you can always drop late MULE-s, albeit with some opportunity cost. I can mention many other more relevant examples... if you do hatch first and get cannon rushed, a small mistake in defending the cannon rush will lose you the game. Not scouting a 2gate in time will lose you the game. Overdroning just one cycle against any gate/robo all-in will lose you the game. Not splitting your broodlords just once in a battle will lose you the game.
He backs that up stating the easy recovery of zerg from a 6 pool, although there is a high chance protoss can die to it and the unability for protoss to score build order wins like zerg. Moreover late game in pvz, where every competent zerg can get to if he plays his cards right. (mutas, 100 drones, 5 hatches----> infestors 20-30 spine crawlers) . In lategame toss has no reliable composition to deal with bl/infestor like sase said. And you should believe him, he plays this game competitively and has all time in the world to figure it out. Moreover zerg has fungal which is basicly stopping all micro from protoss. If toss makes one misstep he looses half of his army.
Zerg has no composition to deal with Protoss mid/late game except bl/infestor/queen/spinecrawler. Moreover, Protoss has vortex which basically can kill your entire army if you make one control error.
Defending for zerg has become a lot easier and still toss has to place perfect forcefields to stay alive. Then he makes a lot of Changes to adress these Design Issues. I agree with his statement in that zerg is the easiest to play and the most forviging race at least from master- gsl. But I also think Terran is the least forgiving race, we should keep that in mind. Then however this post contributes directly to the problems at hand in PvZ. Bottom line: It is not a balance post its a post dealing with design issues
Bottom line: it's a biased balanced post, much like your own. It doesn't even attempt to really explore the issues from all sides. Compare that to Gretorp's post, for example, and you will see what a design post looks like.
I do not think zerg has the most unforgiving macro mechanic. If you dont warp in the units the exact moment wargate cooldown finishes. You see the parallel to queen inject. I played zerg myself a little bit and had no problem whatsoever managing inject. Thats the only macro you have to do, unit production is the easiest in the game. The only thing you could point out is the difficulty of zerg having to look away from the battle to manage inject. Again the same applies to warp in.
If you cant hold a canon rush you just dont know how to deal with it. just patrol a drone at the bottom of your ramp and let another drone chase the probe. No micro involved! If he places a pylon just send additonal 3 drones to the pylon. The oportunity cost is not a hinderance because your expo got placed down so much earlier. Meanwhile toss has to micro the probe like crazy to avoid hits by the drone, which is thanks to a patch no longer possible, try to place down pylons which you cant do really because either the drone blocks or the probe gets hit again and possibly dies.
I know zerg has no other lategame option. Its another design error and Sase specifically draws out the problem of the votality of lategame pvz. Vortex is just too powerful either for toss or zerg if one infestor neurals the MS. This is an DESIGN error not a balance one
It is still not a balance post as I already elaborated. I didnt read gretorps post, maybe you could give me the link. Sases insight is a different one from gretorp. Sase is a pro gamer and makes his money by playing the game. We should have a comparable zerg and terran progamer express his opinon so we can have the best possible unbaised conclusion. Still i dont find anything comparable from terran and zerg progamers, but I am looking forward to it.
There's a point a lot of people are missing. The point of the OP is not meant to suggest that protoss can't win vs zerg, or that there is a significant race imbalance. The point is that the way protoss currently is makes the game stupid. It's not about implement all of the changes Sase suggests to make life easier for protoss players, but game design problems that have to be addressed before the game is balanced.
On October 20 2012 20:10 xtfftc wrote: There's a point a lot of people are missing. The point of the OP is not meant to suggest that protoss can't win vs zerg, or that there is a significant race imbalance. The point is that the way protoss currently is makes the game stupid. It's not about implement all of the changes Sase suggests to make life easier for protoss players, but game design problems that have to be addressed before the game is balanced.
If that were the case people would agree. But that's just not what he said, your post is a lot more intelligent than his.
People should stop defending him, it was a bad post.
*You can't fungel something that's fungeled. This way stalkers would be able to blink away and not be stuck forever
The chain fungal is extremely annoying and does feel broken. There is realy nothing you can do after the first fungal hits besides seeing your units die. Storm you can at least move away. This is isue with air units even way more so then with stalkers. Chain fungal realy stands out for me as beeing the most broken thing. Mass spines is weird, gimmicky and annoying but toss should be able to break that i think (with mass colo and stalkers before he has bl) Movement makes mass spines for zerg a much better option then mass cannon or mass pf so maybe its a bit unfair indeed. The other things i dunno about Ai with infested terrans is annoying but making it the normal ai (attacking the closest unit) does not look great either,can think of several scenarios in wich it would turn out bad.
standard TL community responses, most people not comprehending what sase says, trying to stigma him as a balance whiner when he really tries to be constructive, some downright insulting him anonymously while being 1000 times worse at the game than him and having much less insight, while sase is a really likeable person
I think Blizzard will have to listen to these great ideas - for the good of the game (not to mention their wallets -hence they will listen).
Thanks SaSe for spending your time on how to improve the RTS that all of us play. I hope Blizzard contacts you for more serious discussions. They need staff like you.
So basicly what your saying is, lets make zerg completly useless to balance out the matchup. What you´re saying it will kinda balance PvZ, but your just ruining the TvZ matchup. I guess they could change a little bit the infestor to balance things out.
*Infestors can throw infested terrans while underground. Doesn't really make sense to me either. *Give infestor a HIVE upgrade for moving underground. Now they just need burrow and they get to move for free.
Infestors don't have a standard attack, I think it would be horrible to make both changes rather than just one or the other. Roaches with burrowed movement researched can unburrow and then attack workers and/or whatever else. Infestors don't have a standard attack. Just build a (or more than one) bloody cannon if you're concerned about them being able to use it while burrowed. I hold that opinion at least so long as someone would suggest delaying burrowed movement for infestors until AFTER a technology has been researched AFTER getting a Hive. Without thinking about it too much, I think the delay before being able to (move while burrowed) might be okay if you can still throw ITs when burrowed, but then you'd have to walk up and only move at the last moment, which sounds like pretty useless supposedly functionality. Putting things the other way around, while it might be fine for burrowed movement to be delayed, there might be some funky timings that get removed by the ability being delayed, which might be a shame and the (underground-thrown) ITs are the real concern, right? I don't see why you'd want both changes.
the OP is just superbiased and only has suggestions to buff toss while nerfing zerg without any nerfs to toss and buffs to zerg. PvZ is balanced right now but superstupid gamedesignwise so buffing toss while nerfing zerg would make it incredibly imba. so CHANGE things and dont buff one race and nerf the other.
main problems in PvZ are FFs, fungal and BL/infestor/vortex.
changing fungal to a slow is a SUPERHUGE nerf which needs to be compensated by buffing the speed of basically every zerg unit (to not be kited to death) and making more strats viable for zerg (other than BL infestor) so buffs for hydras, ultras and lategame swarmhosts.
then remove the stupidness called vortex and buff carrier and tempest accordingly so toss is able to fight BL infestor.
the removal of FF is a lot trickier and wont probably be implemented in HOTS. FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent. you could give the sentry another spell instead of FF and protoss will be safe in early game because of mothership core.
From my experience i feel like if zerg had a staple unit they could use that transitions well into the late game the meta might be more diverse, but as of right now all zerg units that aren't infestors you want to get rid of in the mid-game because in the late-game they are shit. So if zerg isn't going to get a unit they can use all game and is viable in the late-game they will always have to revert back to bl/infestor to stand a chance.
On October 19 2012 11:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it"
On October 19 2012 12:02 baubo wrote: I'm not good enough to weigh in on balance, but I just want to note that the first several paragraphs of Sase's post is basically exactly what people complain about BW PvZ since forever.
Yep. It's obviously a problem and always has been.
On October 20 2012 21:37 Decendos wrote: the OP is just superbiased and only has suggestions to buff toss while nerfing zerg without any nerfs to toss and buffs to zerg. PvZ is balanced right now but superstupid gamedesignwise so buffing toss while nerfing zerg would make it incredibly imba. so CHANGE things and dont buff one race and nerf the other.
main problems in PvZ are FFs, fungal and BL/infestor/vortex.
changing fungal to a slow is a SUPERHUGE nerf which needs to be compensated by buffing the speed of basically every zerg unit (to not be kited to death) and making more strats viable for zerg (other than BL infestor) so buffs for hydras, ultras and lategame swarmhosts.
then remove the stupidness called vortex and buff carrier and tempest accordingly so toss is able to fight BL infestor.
the removal of FF is a lot trickier and wont probably be implemented in HOTS. FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent. you could give the sentry another spell instead of FF and protoss will be safe in early game because of mothership core.
- Kited to death? Speedlings and roaches with Glial Reconstitution both out run Stalkers with and without blink respectively. Blink cannot be counted in 'kiting' though. - Balance incorporates all parts of the game. In a pure macro late game, I would be interested to see that particular statistic alone. Also, (biased sample size incoming), the super strong immortal sentry all-in 'seems' to be losing traction. That said, perhaps the ST version will catch on more and more people will ride on the success of Parting's PvZ. We'll see more of that in DH and the upcoming MLGs. - The cost of FF is terrain AND spread dependent. The cost of fungal is spread dependent. FF isn't just there for the early game. While it is nice having it against Bling busts, it is actually much more necessary for the mid game. For example, try pure zealot stalker immortal pushes at 10mins. They don't work. Removal of FF is extremely difficult to balance. I suspect that would require an entire ground-up re-work of Protoss and Gateway units AND their production mechanic.
On October 19 2012 12:11 neobowman wrote: As a Zerg, I agree. At the very least in the scouting department. Unlike in SC1, you can't keep your probe alive in the opponent's base forever with good micro. Just doesn't happen. Toss needs a better early scout solution.
Yes, this is a big deal. I'm really hoping the mothership core fixes this... we will see.
On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous.
Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
Quick Swarmhost tech kills this and all other 2 base Protoss all-ins that we see today.
On October 20 2012 21:37 Decendos wrote: the OP is just superbiased and only has suggestions to buff toss while nerfing zerg without any nerfs to toss and buffs to zerg. PvZ is balanced right now but superstupid gamedesignwise so buffing toss while nerfing zerg would make it incredibly imba. so CHANGE things and dont buff one race and nerf the other.
main problems in PvZ are FFs, fungal and BL/infestor/vortex.
changing fungal to a slow is a SUPERHUGE nerf which needs to be compensated by buffing the speed of basically every zerg unit (to not be kited to death) and making more strats viable for zerg (other than BL infestor) so buffs for hydras, ultras and lategame swarmhosts.
then remove the stupidness called vortex and buff carrier and tempest accordingly so toss is able to fight BL infestor.
the removal of FF is a lot trickier and wont probably be implemented in HOTS. FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent. you could give the sentry another spell instead of FF and protoss will be safe in early game because of mothership core.
- Kited to death? Speedlings and roaches with Glial Reconstitution both out run Stalkers with and without blink respectively. Blink cannot be counted in 'kiting' though. - Balance incorporates all parts of the game. In a pure macro late game, I would be interested to see that particular statistic alone. Also, (biased sample size incoming), the super strong immortal sentry all-in 'seems' to be losing traction. That said, perhaps the ST version will catch on more and more people will ride on the success of Parting's PvZ. We'll see more of that in DH and the upcoming MLGs. - The cost of FF is terrain AND spread dependent. The cost of fungal is spread dependent. FF isn't just there for the early game. While it is nice having it against Bling busts, it is actually much more necessary for the mid game. For example, try pure zealot stalker immortal pushes at 10mins. They don't work. Removal of FF is extremely difficult to balance. I suspect that would require an entire ground-up re-work of Protoss and Gateway units AND their production mechanic.
okay so roaches and lings would be able to fight (and even that is not true since blinkstalker would trade way too good without being able to fungal) and the whole rest of the units would be kited and only getting of some hits. you know that hydras even with the speedupgrade are slower than NON-blink-stalker, ultras still suck in zvp and would suck even more if fungal was only a slow and same goes for the slow locusts of SH. so yes, you obviously would need to buff hydras, ultras and SHs if fungal is only a slow AND THATS AN AWESOME SIDEEFFECT of a fungal nerf since more strategies would be viable and its not the retarded slowmoving non-zergy BL infestor spine queen comp all over again.
as for FF: i said its the hardest to balance out but its still a stupid mechanic + the sentry would be given another supporting spell. right now FF is only really needed because of early game busts which is adressed by the MsC. midgame removing of FF can be fixed with another sentry spell, lategame FF arent used anyway.
The only point i agree on is the fact that it is hard to scout for Toss. Thats the only issue really. If you scout well enought, you can potencially win everything.
In broodwar its always been like this, and there unit counters were not so heavy.
On October 20 2012 18:55 ROOTT1 wrote: short and sweet post, infested terran eggs should have 0 armor and fungal should slow down units(while still preventing blink). interceptors should regain health once back in the carrier
On October 20 2012 15:10 SaSe wrote: I don't feel like it's ok gowser, scarlett and darkforce replies with ashort line of I'm biased and I wanna nerf zerg too much. I said ONE or TWO changes would be ok for infestors, personally I would like to see infested terrans gets targeted in egg form and HIVE upgrade for underground movement. Also creep should get less vision because it's too easy for zerg to spot every drop, every warp prism. It's basically like maphack lategame.
Please show me where I said this, I don't like having words put into my mouth
(Also making units autotarget infested terran eggs would be a huge buff for Zerg ~ they have 100 hp, 1 armor(I think?), and are not considered light OR armored while in egg form ~ Zerg could just spam in middle of army, and it would make them even more broken vs mech and waste collosus attacks away from lings)
This is rather a whine about balance and a guide how to nerf infestor to the ground and buff protoss, then a take on the game. Most of the proposed changes are simply not well thought as well (eg. infested terrans not shooting air. Seriously, you want to force every zerg into fast lair and hydras, so they can die to collosus follow-up?). And yes, I do play protoss atm.
Pretty sad that a thread like this stays open only because it's posted by somebody well known in the scene. Any other person writing this = thread closed in less then 30 minutes.
I used to be a zerg player and now I'm a terran. Even though this discussion is about ZvP I'm going to say what I think and I might seem a little biased towards zerg since I used to play them. But I agree with some of the points that Sase brought up. Blizzard doesn't seem to read these forums but only the battle.net forums which is weird since most posts on the battle.net forums are just retarded whines.
I don't think that protoss is OP nor UP just a shitty race. It's designed retardedly. The whole warp-in mechanic needs a tweak because it removes defenders advantage which it shouldn't in an RTS game and this might be why PvP is "coinflippy". Also their units are expensive and slow yet toss is forced to do some kind of damage to zerg or they'll just lose. Their units are the most supply efficient though in the late game they lose this trait as zerg goes from mass unit to best units.
People have a tendency to compare each race to some sort of neutral race without any pros or cons.
All races have overpowered stuff (I mean, warping in at any place on the map? MULEs? Makin 30 roaches at the time?) but when you put them against eachother they just... negate eachother in "OPness".
SaSe has kinda lost my respect with all his whining about zerg. I do understand that some parts of zerg is frustrating (heck, I'm a protoss player myself) but I think that when you're a pro, you should not complain about balance but try to work around it. Let the noobs whine about balance, show us that you can win even though you think the game is unbalanced.
Seems like Sase was tired and frustrated when writing this topic. A lot of things aren't thought over properly and suggested solutions rather strange. Many things I have never heard anybody complain about and see as problem. Some things mentioned are right, but only the usual stuff. Most of topics on balance and suggestion make more sense... No comment about hots part.
PvZ is a problem but the list of nerfs is too damn huge for zergs and the one on buffs too big for protoss. We should start with a slow on fungal instead of root to see out it goes, not do 15 nerfs on the infestor.
On October 20 2012 18:55 ROOTT1 wrote: short and sweet post, infested terran eggs should have 0 armor and fungal should slow down units(while still preventing blink). interceptors should regain health once back in the carrier
On October 20 2012 15:10 SaSe wrote: I don't feel like it's ok gowser, scarlett and darkforce replies with ashort line of I'm biased and I wanna nerf zerg too much. I said ONE or TWO changes would be ok for infestors, personally I would like to see infested terrans gets targeted in egg form and HIVE upgrade for underground movement. Also creep should get less vision because it's too easy for zerg to spot every drop, every warp prism. It's basically like maphack lategame.
Please show me where I said this, I don't like having words put into my mouth
(Also making units autotarget infested terran eggs would be a huge buff for Zerg ~ they have 100 hp, 1 armor(I think?), and are not considered light OR armored while in egg form ~ Zerg could just spam in middle of army, and it would make them even more broken vs mech and waste collosus attacks away from lings)
2 armor =]
I like these suggestions a lot more. If they could buff the carrier enough so that mothership can be scrapped it would be great. No idea if the tempest works as intended against broodlord/infestor but it would be nice if it made it impossible to turtle behind spines unless already very ahead.
On October 20 2012 21:37 Decendos wrote: the OP is just superbiased and only has suggestions to buff toss while nerfing zerg without any nerfs to toss and buffs to zerg. PvZ is balanced right now but superstupid gamedesignwise so buffing toss while nerfing zerg would make it incredibly imba. so CHANGE things and dont buff one race and nerf the other.
main problems in PvZ are FFs, fungal and BL/infestor/vortex.
changing fungal to a slow is a SUPERHUGE nerf which needs to be compensated by buffing the speed of basically every zerg unit (to not be kited to death) and making more strats viable for zerg (other than BL infestor) so buffs for hydras, ultras and lategame swarmhosts.
then remove the stupidness called vortex and buff carrier and tempest accordingly so toss is able to fight BL infestor.
the removal of FF is a lot trickier and wont probably be implemented in HOTS. FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent. you could give the sentry another spell instead of FF and protoss will be safe in early game because of mothership core.
Do you know how to read? If yes then maybe you should read SaSe's post before criticising someone with infinitely more knowledge than you.
On October 20 2012 22:53 NeonFox wrote: PvZ is a problem but the list of nerfs is too damn huge for zergs and the one on buffs too big for protoss. We should start with a slow on fungal instead of root to see out it goes, not do 15 nerfs on the infestor.
In OP:
"I am not saying all these things are needed. For infestor probably one or two."
Sase has lost his freaking mind. I love protoss, but the only idea I can honestly live with is fungal growth not locking down units AND doing damage. Other than that, the list of proposed changes is nonsense.
On October 21 2012 14:37 chaos021 wrote: Sase has lost his freaking mind. I love protoss, but the only idea I can honestly live with is fungal growth not locking down units AND doing damage. Other than that, the list of proposed changes is nonsense.
This player, who has 'lost his mind' is KR GM level player. That is to say, he has experience at the highest level of Starcraft. I'm not saying SaSe is right or wrong becuase the grass is always greener on the other side but man, to say that his opinion is nonsense is very, very ignorant.
We, as the non-pro playing public only get to see a very, very small sample size in what balance really looks like. Think about how many games these Pro's play in practice compared to televized matches. You may have formed your opinion based around televised matches/released replays however these guys play far more games than you will ever watch. Their experiences of how the game functions at the highest level is far greater than ours.
Though i fully agree with you that ZvP goes south either way with tiny mistakes, it's currently a awfull matchup because of the Unit's design on both sides.
I do not agree with that Protoss is weak early and midgame, i would say it's the other way around even. (my opinion ofc)
The BL/corr/inf comp is awful though i agree, then again remove the infestor and nothing can beat a Protoss mid/late game. Zerg simply needs something to be able to trade somewhat efficient.
Your idea's of nerfing zerg would give you a 99% winrate, i doubt even protoss would say that's fun.
I respect your opinion and thank you for summoning all your problems up here, but i am afraid you are looking a bit to much through protoss glasses alone.
On October 21 2012 14:37 chaos021 wrote: Sase has lost his freaking mind. I love protoss, but the only idea I can honestly live with is fungal growth not locking down units AND doing damage. Other than that, the list of proposed changes is nonsense.
This player, who has 'lost his mind' is KR GM level player. That is to say, he has experience at the highest level of Starcraft. I'm not saying SaSe is right or wrong becuase the grass is always greener on the other side but man, to say that his opinion is nonsense is very, very ignorant.
We, as the non-pro playing public only get to see a very, very small sample size in what balance really looks like. Think about how many games these Pro's play in practice compared to televized matches. You may have formed your opinion based around televised matches/released replays however these guys play far more games than you will ever watch. Their experiences of how the game functions at the highest level is far greater than ours.
Just food for thought.
Yes. Sase knows way more than any of us, even if his opinion is biased. The guy has to make a living off playing SC2 and how frustrating would it be where lesser skilled players could beat you?
I agree that broodlings and infested terran should not get upgrades. They are 0 supply and get a huge boost from upgrades. I also agree that burrow movement should be an upgrade. I would like this from a spectator standpoint because it is so frustrating to watch a zerg go for a big mid-game push with roach infester and there really isn't much toss can do about it, even if they see it coming.
I wonder what the game would be like if blizzard had gone through with the fungal nerf to not affect air units. It would probably make zerg anti air too weak, but if they coupled the nerf with a needed buff to hydra, it would make a much better game.
Might as well remove zerg from the game. Hell you know what. Im zerg, and while im no where near pro level, im stil top masters na/ close to grandmasters. And heres my opinion and Q.Q. I agree that the mass spine broodlord infestor thing is OP vs protoss in face to face engagement, but its not like we have any other viable choice. There is absolutely NO good zerg army vs protoss at ALL besides broodlords infestors. And even then without spines n spores it can still be risky.
Trust me, i wish we had a good semi mobile army that we can poke with and run if we dont like what we see. I wish we had an army that we can slowly build all game starting from the early game. If your stuck with roach hydra on late game, you lose. Even if you add like 4-5 broodlords. Stuck with muta lings in late game, you lose.
Ultralisks? Total trash vs protoss, and overall not that great vs terran, only versus certain kind of armies. Ultralisks beats nothing vs protoss.. As soon as few colossus are in, hydras and zerglings are useless, roaches only good if you are way ahead in supply of protoss.
Once its 200/200 vs 200/200, if you dont have infestors /broodlords your in big trouble.
Oh and please, dont get me started on forcefields. How bullshit is it that they can forcefield ramp and autowin if they have a warpprism... or the fact that once they have a few sentries, if they are good enough, you can pretty much never attack until mid/late game.
OH yea, and the bullshit double speed prism harass where they can make 12 zealots or 8 zealots 4 dts at time in your base, you need like 6436346 spines to defend your tech,. or keep roaches wich are so broken .. 2 supply for that shit unit lol.
Send your mobile unit to defend your main, oups 12 zealots at your 4th or 3rd!.. Massing spines is the only way in zvp O_o
Dude who plays this game for 8-12 hours a day at a pro level for months, and is renowned for being one of the hardest working players makes balance suggestions. Gets attacked by zergs who probably haven't even played 100 ladder games in the past month. Good stuff.
I don't see how anyone can think PvZ is fine atm.
He was making suggestions, not saying blizzard absolutely has to do everything he suggested. People need to actually read a whole post instead of obviously replying after reading the first few lines or paragraphs before their race defense mechanism kicks in.
On October 21 2012 16:02 Snake.69 wrote: Might as well remove zerg from the game. Hell you know what. Im zerg, and while im no where near pro level, im stil top masters na/ close to grandmasters. And heres my opinion and Q.Q. I agree that the mass spine broodlord infestor thing is OP vs protoss in face to face engagement, but its not like we have any other viable choice. There is absolutely NO good zerg army vs protoss at ALL besides broodlords infestors. And even then without spines n spores it can still be risky.
Trust me, i wish we had a good semi mobile army that we can poke with and run if we dont like what we see. I wish we had an army that we can slowly build all game starting from the early game. If your stuck with roach hydra on late game, you lose. Even if you add like 4-5 broodlords. Stuck with muta lings in late game, you lose.
Ultralisks? Total trash vs protoss, and overall not that great vs terran, only versus certain kind of armies. Ultralisks beats nothing vs protoss.. As soon as few colossus are in, hydras and zerglings are useless, roaches only good if you are way ahead in supply of protoss.
Once its 200/200 vs 200/200, if you dont have infestors /broodlords your in big trouble.
Oh and please, dont get me started on forcefields. How bullshit is it that they can forcefield ramp and autowin if they have a warpprism... or the fact that once they have a few sentries, if they are good enough, you can pretty much never attack until mid/late game.
OH yea, and the bullshit double speed prism harass where they can make 12 zealots or 8 zealots 4 dts at time in your base, you need like 6436346 spines to defend your tech,. or keep roaches wich are so broken .. 2 supply for that shit unit lol.
Send your mobile unit to defend your main, oups 12 zealots at your 4th or 3rd!.. Massing spines is the only way in zvp O_o
Nobody is contesting that Spine Spore Infestor Broodlord Corruptor is the only viable way to play ZvP outside of all-ins. Problem is two-fold: Spine Spore Infestor Broodlord Corruptor makes for boring, turtle games & its unbeatable if played right.
I like how he complains about infestors casting IT while burrowed doesn't make sense and then suggests that ITs shouldn't be able to shoot up. They are marines FFS, at least try to be consistent.
I would be more concerned about the racial design issues that cause the matchup to be a broken mess though.
Protoss does not need buffs, it already shits on any zerg ground army thats why zerg is forced to mass turrets and basically siege protoss army to death.
As for losing to people who are far worse than you, yeah it sucks but starcraft2 is an extremely volatile game, it happens.
Well first to balance the game is difficult, to understand all possibilities is really hard even for a player like Sase.
However if I understand Sase right the idea is not to make either Protoss or Zerg stronger, therefor is the win rate and so on irrelevant. Sase do not want to buff Protoss, that is not the point of this post, therefor we should not comment on it as it was. What Sase want to achieve is to make PvZ more skilled based in both early and late game.
Thus he tires to remove easy skill stuff from both sides without necessarily change the race win rates in either direction. Thus removing stuff like: Mothership, preventing 4 gate/cannon rush timings, neural parasite on mothership, less creep vision and in someways nerf the infestor so it is not such an obvious go to unit for Zerg/and or make it require more skill, like you cannot fungal units that are already fungaled.
I do not think Sase believe that his changes will result in a perfect balance, of course you will need to tweak and test it, and this does Sase of course realize to. However I think that these changes that will push the game towards being more skilled required and more equilibrium in the different "time stages" of PvZ. Therefor what we should discuss is how do we make PvZ more skilled based and thus more entertaining to watch, and if Sases suggestions are the right once to achieve this. And if you do not think it is, then how would you do it?
In my mind the biggest problem here, and what is almost always the biggest problem with balance in SC2 is that their is a third race. If you make changes on this level will change the other match ups. Thus will I think that Sase changes are good in that they would change PvZ in an interesting direction, am I still worried about what it might do to ZvT for instance.
PS: To all you retards saying stuff, "oh wow a protoss whining about protoss". Your posts have no meaning, contributes to nothing and makes my brain want shutdown to defend myself from your stupidity/ignorance.
This is a balance thread, here you come with suggestions like: "I think that unit x needs buff because of reason y, however this will change situation z so you might need to think about this other thing as well" OR "I agree with this part but not with this because of x". If you cannot do this you do not belong in this thread.
You do NOT talk about, "my penis is longer that yours", "I just lost to P therefor this is bad" or "poster A is playing race x, living in country y and have religion z, therefor I counter all his logic by stating he is not the correct person to comment on this and therefor all his arguments are invalid". <-- If you feel an urge to do this then you can go and log on to a reddit account and spread your ignorance there.
im sorry to say this but when 99% of you starcraft experts out there get out of the platinum league then u can say that SaSe is making absurd balance suggestions.
I hate threads talking about imbalance that don't consider the other side.
Zerg is horrible without Infestor Broodlord. The only redeeming factor about Zerg atm is that if you don't die before the lategame you get a good chance of winning, so everything Zerg tries to do throughout the game is just delay tactics
I don't know if the changes he proposed can achieve balance (probably not) but one thing is for sure. Zerg has the upper hand in every matchup right now. I'm not saying that Z is totally imbalanced but they just have the tools to control the game so that they put the pressure on the opponent. A strong zerg player who plays standard can be almost unbeatable nowadays regardless the strategy his enemy chooses to do, unless he gets outmicroed or outsmarted really badly. And yeah, Im only diamond but it doesn't take an expert to see that the other races struggle more than they should vs Z.
In my opinion, the problem is that zerg is just way too safe early game.. In the past it was common to do some early damage to the zerg's economy so that the lategame became equal. Now that early game is just too safe for the zerg and since they are the race with the more rewarding macro (300 minerals for a building that boosts eco and makes all kinds of units) they will transition into the lategame with an advantage.
1. Your earlypool example is bullshit because EVERY race has this kind of "if you just fuck up slightly you are dead and if i fail it doesnt matter that much" stuff.
a)2rax against zerg. If the zerg just messes up slightly or is too greedy they straight up die. If the zerg defends then the terran isnt so much behind
b)If you forcefield the ramp of a zerg you are dead, if i dont see your 4gate pressure comming i m dead. If i go hatch first and you cannonrush me i m dead. Funny that you point out that you die to a 10pool with nexus first but you just do not mention that a cannonrush kills hatch first.
2. How about 2 base allins? It is easy to 2base allin since you just play a build and do not react to the zerg in any way, you do your allin no matter what and the zerg has to deal with it. You do not need any gamesense or scouting you just play a build that you can write down on a piece of paper and then you execute it. Pushes like the immortal sentry push are EXTREMLY hard to defend such pushes as a zerg even if you see them comming an hour ago. Funny that you have to play your hard out against a allin you see a mile ago.
3. You are right about some points but they are extremly biased. Why you do not mention that you can play toss on the highest level with sub par mechanics compared to zerg or terran players? If you want all that stuff done then blizzard also has to chance your race so it needs more "skill" to be played on the highest level. There are so many top level toss players that barely get over 100apm in average. The problem with toss is that you can reach the "skill ceiling" faster than with terran or zerg.
4. You also do not consider that zerg doesnt have the same midgame units than protoss has. Why do you think zerg turtles up with a spinecrawler forest? There is NOTHING that can combat immortal, collossi gateway units before you havent got a sufficient number of broodlords. Roach, hydra corrupter is completely useless, you cannot defend with them and you sure cannot push with them unless you are 100supply ahead. You just point out the strenghs and you do not consider the weaknesses. AS a toss player you build your deathball (unless you herp derp 2 baseallin) from the start to the end of the game. It grows stronger and stronger, whereas as a zergplayer you have nothing until your first broodlords are out.
I'm a former Terran/Zerg player (former as in I don't play anymore) and see no issues with trying to redesign Protoss and ESPECIALLY Zerg. Plus I know you're a good player Sase.
On the other hand I feel your reasoning for many things in the OP isn't very good, you don't flesh out your points enough (regardless of if they're 'right' or not). You mention multiple things that don't make sense, but don't explain what you mean by this or how they don't make sense. Is it a design issue? Balance? Lore related?
I think change suggestions should go on how to make the game more entertaining to watch, balance is important but secondary as long there is a reasonable race mix at tourneys. Wether its justified or not: removing early pools from the game makes it actually more boring. Having seen a lot of "standard" ZvP, i really enjoy it nowadays to see some early action/proxy/pool. Early action should be encouraged., 10 min no rush is b-o-r-i-n-g. As a pro you should worry about the entertainment value, not your personal problems/QQ/OP stuff (ofc these areas influence each toher a lot).
The one and only core problem with PvZ is sentries. Sentries make it impossible for a lot of Zerg units to apply pressure and it lets the Protoss player turtle on no units for the ultimate nr 10 all in. At no point in the first 10 minutes of the game, is a Zerg player ever going to harass a protoss player because it won't work, it will be 100% deflected, so wehy make units when it hurts your economy and it doesn't gain you any benefit? The only proper solution to PvZ is:
1.) Remove forcefields. 2.) Rebalance the game.
This is a huge problem that should have been addressed over a year ago, and despite HOTS being the perfect time to shake things up and fix it, Blizzard isn't going to by the looks of things, so enjoy the nr meta of PvZ for the next few years.
On October 20 2012 21:37 Decendos wrote: the OP is just superbiased and only has suggestions to buff toss while nerfing zerg without any nerfs to toss and buffs to zerg. PvZ is balanced right now but superstupid gamedesignwise so buffing toss while nerfing zerg would make it incredibly imba. so CHANGE things and dont buff one race and nerf the other.
main problems in PvZ are FFs, fungal and BL/infestor/vortex.
changing fungal to a slow is a SUPERHUGE nerf which needs to be compensated by buffing the speed of basically every zerg unit (to not be kited to death) and making more strats viable for zerg (other than BL infestor) so buffs for hydras, ultras and lategame swarmhosts.
then remove the stupidness called vortex and buff carrier and tempest accordingly so toss is able to fight BL infestor.
the removal of FF is a lot trickier and wont probably be implemented in HOTS. FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent. you could give the sentry another spell instead of FF and protoss will be safe in early game because of mothership core.
Do you know how to read? If yes then maybe you should read SaSe's post before criticising someone with infinitely more knowledge than you.
if you could read you would see a whole lot of buffs for toss and nerfs for zerg and no nerfs for toss and no buffs for zerg in a balanced MU. ZvP is bad designwise not balancewise. so yeah of course sase has more gameknowledge than me and you but doesnt change anything about this bad post of balancewhining and only suggesting to buff P/nerf Z instead of making good suggestions for better design (like making fungal a slow, remove FF, remove vortex etc.) would be.
I love you sase, you re maybe one of those progammers who really make the game (the protoss gameplay) go ahead.Nothing is "classic" with you and I really think that players like you should be able to talk to blizzard in gamedesign (as lot of other progammers, but players like idra, wich I like too, would not do this.).
On October 20 2012 21:37 Decendos wrote: the OP is just superbiased and only has suggestions to buff toss while nerfing zerg without any nerfs to toss and buffs to zerg. PvZ is balanced right now but superstupid gamedesignwise so buffing toss while nerfing zerg would make it incredibly imba. so CHANGE things and dont buff one race and nerf the other.
main problems in PvZ are FFs, fungal and BL/infestor/vortex.
changing fungal to a slow is a SUPERHUGE nerf which needs to be compensated by buffing the speed of basically every zerg unit (to not be kited to death) and making more strats viable for zerg (other than BL infestor) so buffs for hydras, ultras and lategame swarmhosts.
then remove the stupidness called vortex and buff carrier and tempest accordingly so toss is able to fight BL infestor.
the removal of FF is a lot trickier and wont probably be implemented in HOTS. FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent. you could give the sentry another spell instead of FF and protoss will be safe in early game because of mothership core.
Do you know how to read? If yes then maybe you should read SaSe's post before criticising someone with infinitely more knowledge than you.
if you could read you would see a whole lot of buffs for toss and nerfs for zerg and no nerfs for toss and no buffs for zerg in a balanced MU. ZvP is bad designwise not balancewise. so yeah of course sase has more gameknowledge than me and you but doesnt change anything about this bad post of balancewhining and only suggesting to buff P/nerf Z instead of making good suggestions for better design (like making fungal a slow, remove FF, remove vortex etc.) would be.
Ok because you can't be bothered to read SaSe's post let me quote one of his paragraphs for you:
*Remove mothership. We are not playing wc3. We are not playing dota neither any other moba game either. It's just silly to have something you can just have one of. It's way too much swings to have a unit like this. Good vortex vs bad vortex vs no vortex vs reversed vortex. It's like playing World Series of Poker with jokers. Guess only Darvin Moon would like that. To balance starcraft a very important thing is to remove randomness as much as possible and this is by far the biggest random factor in the game.
Then again maybe you read that as a Zerg nerf because now they can't neural a Mothership any more! Maybe you should read the rest of the post too, it's quite insightful. But someone who doesn't think anything is wrong with PvZ is probably to stupid to understand most of SaSe's points.
On October 20 2012 21:37 Decendos wrote: the OP is just superbiased and only has suggestions to buff toss while nerfing zerg without any nerfs to toss and buffs to zerg. PvZ is balanced right now but superstupid gamedesignwise so buffing toss while nerfing zerg would make it incredibly imba. so CHANGE things and dont buff one race and nerf the other.
main problems in PvZ are FFs, fungal and BL/infestor/vortex.
changing fungal to a slow is a SUPERHUGE nerf which needs to be compensated by buffing the speed of basically every zerg unit (to not be kited to death) and making more strats viable for zerg (other than BL infestor) so buffs for hydras, ultras and lategame swarmhosts.
then remove the stupidness called vortex and buff carrier and tempest accordingly so toss is able to fight BL infestor.
the removal of FF is a lot trickier and wont probably be implemented in HOTS. FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent. you could give the sentry another spell instead of FF and protoss will be safe in early game because of mothership core.
Do you know how to read? If yes then maybe you should read SaSe's post before criticising someone with infinitely more knowledge than you.
if you could read you would see a whole lot of buffs for toss and nerfs for zerg and no nerfs for toss and no buffs for zerg in a balanced MU. ZvP is bad designwise not balancewise. so yeah of course sase has more gameknowledge than me and you but doesnt change anything about this bad post of balancewhining and only suggesting to buff P/nerf Z instead of making good suggestions for better design (like making fungal a slow, remove FF, remove vortex etc.) would be.
Ok because you can't be bothered to read SaSe's post let me quote one of his paragraphs for you:
*Remove mothership. We are not playing wc3. We are not playing dota neither any other moba game either. It's just silly to have something you can just have one of. It's way too much swings to have a unit like this. Good vortex vs bad vortex vs no vortex vs reversed vortex. It's like playing World Series of Poker with jokers. Guess only Darvin Moon would like that. To balance starcraft a very important thing is to remove randomness as much as possible and this is by far the biggest random factor in the game.
Then again maybe you read that as a Zerg nerf because now they can't neural a Mothership any more! Maybe you should read the rest of the post too, it's quite insightful. But someone who doesn't think anything is wrong with PvZ is probably to stupid to understand most of SaSe's points.
didnt see that one. obv. a good suggestion.
still too much whining like losing to lingrunbys or bad suggestions like 50 energy for detection and an attack.
he talks about winning with skill and wants things like less lingrunbys and supereasy defence for toss in the game. or the example where he wants AI to be higher attacking range so units attack automatically instead of having to micro them. also takes skill OUT of the game.
i already said earlier some suggestions are good but most is just whining about balance and not about game design which he should talk about.
On October 20 2012 21:37 Decendos wrote: the OP is just superbiased and only has suggestions to buff toss while nerfing zerg without any nerfs to toss and buffs to zerg. PvZ is balanced right now but superstupid gamedesignwise so buffing toss while nerfing zerg would make it incredibly imba. so CHANGE things and dont buff one race and nerf the other.
main problems in PvZ are FFs, fungal and BL/infestor/vortex.
changing fungal to a slow is a SUPERHUGE nerf which needs to be compensated by buffing the speed of basically every zerg unit (to not be kited to death) and making more strats viable for zerg (other than BL infestor) so buffs for hydras, ultras and lategame swarmhosts.
then remove the stupidness called vortex and buff carrier and tempest accordingly so toss is able to fight BL infestor.
the removal of FF is a lot trickier and wont probably be implemented in HOTS. FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent. you could give the sentry another spell instead of FF and protoss will be safe in early game because of mothership core.
Do you know how to read? If yes then maybe you should read SaSe's post before criticising someone with infinitely more knowledge than you.
if you could read you would see a whole lot of buffs for toss and nerfs for zerg and no nerfs for toss and no buffs for zerg in a balanced MU. ZvP is bad designwise not balancewise. so yeah of course sase has more gameknowledge than me and you but doesnt change anything about this bad post of balancewhining and only suggesting to buff P/nerf Z instead of making good suggestions for better design (like making fungal a slow, remove FF, remove vortex etc.) would be.
Ok because you can't be bothered to read SaSe's post let me quote one of his paragraphs for you:
*Remove mothership. We are not playing wc3. We are not playing dota neither any other moba game either. It's just silly to have something you can just have one of. It's way too much swings to have a unit like this. Good vortex vs bad vortex vs no vortex vs reversed vortex. It's like playing World Series of Poker with jokers. Guess only Darvin Moon would like that. To balance starcraft a very important thing is to remove randomness as much as possible and this is by far the biggest random factor in the game.
Then again maybe you read that as a Zerg nerf because now they can't neural a Mothership any more! Maybe you should read the rest of the post too, it's quite insightful. But someone who doesn't think anything is wrong with PvZ is probably to stupid to understand most of SaSe's points.
didnt see that one. obv. a good suggestion.
still too much whining like losing to lingrunbys or bad suggestions like 50 energy for detection and an attack.
he talks about winning with skill and wants things like less lingrunbys and supereasy defence for toss in the game.
i already said earlier some suggestions are good but most is just whining about balance and not about game design which he should talk about.
A Zealot in a gap sometimes not stopping Zerglings from getting past seems like luck to me, not skill.
a zealot in a gap on the right spot on hold position always holds off zerglings. ALWAYS!! if it doesnt you fucked up and not the game. seems like you are just a sase fanboy and cant get past objective critism.
btw sases stream is basically the only protoss stream i watch from time to time as a zerg player since i like his style. so its nothing personal if i critisize his bad post.
This entire thread simply proves the point that professional players will always preach imbalance of any race except their own. Do I actually think that's true one hundred percent of the time? No, I don't. But you are just reaffirming the stereotype.
This thread was backed up by essentially no evidence except for your own opinion as a progamer. Is that important? Yes. But, can it prove a true imbalance in the game? No.
What you have essentially done here is posted a blog post as a progamer and you have been allowed due to your reputation. You seem to ignore the problems of the late game that PvZ-haters have already brought up (I hate late game PvZ myself and I see some imbalance there). You don't use the experiences of anyone but yourself, and we get no actual evidence. Please, back this thread up better and then we can talk about this more productively.
Not being able to cast fungal on units when they already are fungaled would be a very welcome nerf as a Terran. That would need more micro then. So the micro need on infestors vs marines becomes more equal. Though still zerg favored. I feel it is way to easy to chain fungal marines compared to dodge fungals. On storms you can at least still pull back or dogde. But to freeze units and deal that much damage on the same time is painful.
How has this not been warned as a balance whine? Wee bit of double standards going on... how surprising.
Though as a Protoss I agree with most of what you say. The lategame PvZ - vortex vs neural - is ridiculous. It's practically impossible for Toss to win without it, but with it can spell disaster.
On October 19 2012 11:45 ssg wrote: Protoss crying about protoss. Shocker.
Protoss certainly has a better understanding of Protoss then Zerg or Terran does... especially when he's one of the best Protoss foreigners who plays the game.
I would beg to differ. They experience problems with their own race because of their deficiency in skill and so no one can know that much about the other race, but I would say that most people know about the other race because of the problems they experience with their own race which shows them what is good about the other race.
In other words, it's easy for anyone to focus on what's bad about their own race and not see what's good at the same time.
For example, I'm a zerg and I think recall is WAY underused. Just think about it. It sounds like complete bullshit that I can go into your base kill everything and leave untouched then almost have 2 vortexes ready before I come to your base to kill you in the late game.
That doesn't mean that Recall is overpowered. That just means that it's strong, like a lot of other abilities and units are in SC2.
On October 22 2012 04:24 Larkin wrote: How has this not been warned as a balance whine? Wee bit of double standards going on... how surprising.
Though as a Protoss I agree with most of what you say. The lategame PvZ - vortex vs neural - is ridiculous. It's practically impossible for Toss to win without it, but with it can spell disaster.
I agree, complete balance whine. Infested Terrans not attacking up? Any idea of what would happen in muta ZvZ?
So many gentlemans here on teamliquid: only productive posts, only very carefull words, SaSe is a shitty whiner... meanwhile MC says bl+inf has no counter and david kim agrees with that. Stop crying Sase, learn to play... I hope the invite sase has received on to the pro-battlenet forum, gives to sase a better audience, at least less formal and blind.
On October 22 2012 04:24 Larkin wrote: How has this not been warned as a balance whine? Wee bit of double standards going on... how surprising.
Though as a Protoss I agree with most of what you say. The lategame PvZ - vortex vs neural - is ridiculous. It's practically impossible for Toss to win without it, but with it can spell disaster.
I agree, complete balance whine. Infested Terrans not attacking up? Any idea of what would happen in muta ZvZ?
I have an idea of what would happen, mutas would still get fungaled to death, just now it takes slightly more energy to kill the 1k/1k resources without any repercussion. In any case, he isn't whining about balance as much as things that make the game frustrating. I would say almost every protoss has experienced seeing lings run at their base, warping in a zealot in the gap, and watching the lings just run by anyway. That is not getting outplayed by the opponent, it is just getting unlucky. Same goes with BL/infestor. Protoss cannot fight it, so you hope that they clump up the BLs, that they don't have neural, that they aren't paying attention, and that you can land the vortex and still get archons into vortex. That is what SaSe is complaining about, that you have to roll the weighted dice and hope you win if you want to play late game PvZ. The game is balance because protoss either does a 2base all in, or a huge timing attack right before the greater spire finishes. I think everyone would agree that this is not how the game should be. Again, this isn't as much balance whine as it is what really needs to be changed (and obviously rebalanced). He makes some really good points.
On October 22 2012 03:03 Nuclease wrote: SaSe, I'm a little bit disappointed to be honest.
This entire thread simply proves the point that professional players will always preach imbalance of any race except their own. Do I actually think that's true one hundred percent of the time? No, I don't. But you are just reaffirming the stereotype.
Stereotype? Lol... what do you guys expect... money is on the line... like I said it's like politics... everyone wants their ideas listened to so that they benefit with cash
As a protoss/terran player. I Mostly agree with alot of this, The orical needs changing to be more skill based, 5 energy per patch = 40 for whole line? no OP 10 per patch = 80? getting there maybe be a little less but meh! Pylon flower sounds really wierd but I would be realy interested in it. Z v P late game is just silly atm, Mothership needs to go, infestors need a slight nurfs and MY FUCK do zerg make 1000000000 spines now, I can't blame them tbh. Why did protoss have it limited, back before WOL beta was out, to have photon cannons move, but spines? Nah there just fine! :D
Whatever, as a player who has tried random I can without a doubt say that zerg is tough to play, but late game it become really easy, you can see the whole map (basically) you get free units in every engagement and, Oh? the protoss has a really good unit? NP! MINE NOW :D
I am sure you know your shit and lots of others had said about the same things. They really took a risk when designing Protoss for a balance point of view. Warp tech and forcefields are borderline OP and yet Protoss are heavily reliant on them. I can not add nothing to actual balance ideas but I see problems with the race.
Sorry but how hard is it to create a mod with some of the changes we as a community want? ... If the changes are THAT SMART... then lets do them and people will be like "oh obviously this version is better"
Did read the OP but after the first line of suggestion I couldn't help but thinking this is a troll thread. Timer on Spawning Pool? Seriously? What does that would do in ZvZ and ZvT? Not to mention that it's not like those early pools are some auto-win or something. If I'm not mistaken, those early pool strats are usually used in boX format as a mindgame/gamble tactic to keep opponent honest.
That alone showed how selfish and one-dimensional the OP was. It is hard to take such a personal opinions seriously.
On October 22 2012 09:01 mishimaBeef wrote: Sorry but how hard is it to create a mod with some of the changes we as a community want? ... If the changes are THAT SMART... then lets do them and people will be like "oh obviously this version is better"
Not a single real tournament would even think about using it, and therefore players would not bother playing on it.
On October 22 2012 09:01 mishimaBeef wrote: Sorry but how hard is it to create a mod with some of the changes we as a community want? ... If the changes are THAT SMART... then lets do them and people will be like "oh obviously this version is better"
Not a single real tournament would even think about using it, and therefore players would not bother playing on it.
I don't expect tournaments to use it... i expect community people to demonstrate new and interesting play and show it in video (not text) format... this should attract more people no?
On October 22 2012 09:01 mishimaBeef wrote: Sorry but how hard is it to create a mod with some of the changes we as a community want? ... If the changes are THAT SMART... then lets do them and people will be like "oh obviously this version is better"
Not a single real tournament would even think about using it, and therefore players would not bother playing on it.
I don't expect tournaments to use it... i expect community people to demonstrate new and interesting play and show it in video (not text) format... this should attract more people no?
Community can't do anything, only progamers investing time can.
**Regen Shield is free and regens quickly. Zergs needs to transfuse and Terrans repair which cost moneys
** If you are so worried about scouting, make a stargate This is what toss did in BW and did something about the horrendous p v z style that was until Bisu revolutionized this Besides, what can a zerg do that really scares toss? Force fields HELLO?
** If a zerg is 100 supply ahead of you becuz of spines then you are doing something wrong.
On October 22 2012 09:01 mishimaBeef wrote: Sorry but how hard is it to create a mod with some of the changes we as a community want? ... If the changes are THAT SMART... then lets do them and people will be like "oh obviously this version is better"
Not a single real tournament would even think about using it, and therefore players would not bother playing on it.
I don't expect tournaments to use it... i expect community people to demonstrate new and interesting play and show it in video (not text) format... this should attract more people no?
Community can't do anything, only progamers investing time can.
And I don't understand how Sase could want the AI to attack IT eggs first than actual units that are firing. You could storm or micro colossus to kill the eggs before hatching. (or at least reduce the number substantially) But you want our stalkers to fire at the eggs while getting beat by roaches.. Not sure if I'm following the thought-process.
I would definitely want my zealots/stalkers to attack infestors/roaches than eggs.
On October 22 2012 09:36 usethis2 wrote: And I don't understand how Sase could want the AI to attack IT eggs first than actual units that are firing. You could storm or micro colossus to kill the eggs before hatching. (or at least reduce the number substantially) But you want our stalkers to fire at the eggs while getting beat by roaches.. Not sure if I'm following the thought-process.
I would definitely want my zealots/stalkers to attack infestors/roaches than eggs.
So u want your zealots and the 3/4/5th line of stalkers to run backwards and forwards in front of the eggs like idiots while they get picked off? Idk dude, I think making them attack the second (free) zerg army is is more useful then trying to get at the first army which is protected by investor energy.
infesters need a nerf, once zerg has 6-7+ of them , if they use it correctly to defend then they are safe untill broodlords are out,infesters+broodlords vs mothership + archon then its a conflip game like the topic said. and late game if toss lose or tie a fight vs infester + broodlords,then its still over , because toss can only make useless stalkers, and what zerg makes are infesters and broodlords
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
^ pretty much. u offer pretty much only nerfs to Z and buffs to P. you talk as if ZvP is 80% or something. at least offer a nerf to immortal sentry. i rarely see a good zerg lose in the late game to protoss but i also rarely see a zerg survive a well executed 2 base push. i agree that PvZ has problems but this balance whine post is extremely biased.
There are just too many inconsistencies in the game atm. Zerg are far too weak in the ZvP matchup at the standard 2 base timings where forcefields can end the game on their own (PartinG's self-proclaimed unstoppable all-ins anyone? which are pretty true tbh).
On the flipside, ZvP and ZvT games that roll-on into the late-game (a large majority of games at present) go completely in the favour of zerg. We're seeing it come through in the last month or two in statistics and now that it's basically caught on in every scene - it's only going to get more rampant.
Scarlett's games vs Bomber is a prime example, sure Scarlett's mechanics were great but that's to be expected by professional players - to have the game given away within 10 minutes is just really sad.
I hate LoL but it's quite ironic that the crowds from their end make more noise just like SC2 used to - It's something very vague but it reflects a lot on SC2 in its present state - stale, repetitive and in need of some serious reworking.
On October 22 2012 09:01 mishimaBeef wrote: Sorry but how hard is it to create a mod with some of the changes we as a community want? ... If the changes are THAT SMART... then lets do them and people will be like "oh obviously this version is better"
Because that's a terrible idea because then EVERYBODY would have to practice in customs, 100% of their games.
On November 03 2012 12:37 cozzE wrote: I hate LoL but it's quite ironic that the crowds from their end make more noise just like SC2 used to - It's something very vague but it reflects a lot on SC2 in its present state - stale, repetitive and in need of some serious reworking.
The late game is just so often 20 minutes of massing into 8 seconds of battle and then the game ends. It's just not exciting. Any minimal build up that massing gives get's resolved in mere seconds. It makes me want to go watch something else.
On October 22 2012 09:01 mishimaBeef wrote: Sorry but how hard is it to create a mod with some of the changes we as a community want? ... If the changes are THAT SMART... then lets do them and people will be like "oh obviously this version is better"
Because that's a terrible idea because then EVERYBODY would have to practice in customs, 100% of their games.
I think it would actually make the experience better. People would have to use chat channels to make games making the whole battle.net experience less lonely. Custom game with a chat room encourage talking and playing, overall making the game more fun.
I have been recently playing the mod Starbow (there is a thread on TL) which is trying to make sc2 gameplay more dynamic. However, more so than the mod it self, I have found that working on new meta and mechanics combined with talking to fellow players and doing obs games more fun than anything I've done in starcraft 2 in years (since beta).
I think something that is really under-rated is the use of MASS infested terrans in ZvT. We just saw major vs Life, Major got 3 hunter seeker missiles down on all of the corrupters, but his vikings melted instantly because of the seemingly 40 or 50 infested terrans thrown under them.
How many infested terrans can a full energy infestor throw down? 8.
Say Life has 12 full energy infestors (common for late-game ZvT) He can literally make 96 marines show up right next to a bunch of tanks and thors that cannot run away. Infestors are just way too strong and versatile.
On October 22 2012 09:19 Dontkillme wrote: Just want to give my 2 cents about this.
* Ling run bys??? WARP IN?? A few more cannons?
**Regen Shield is free and regens quickly. Zergs needs to transfuse and Terrans repair which cost moneys
** If you are so worried about scouting, make a stargate This is what toss did in BW and did something about the horrendous p v z style that was until Bisu revolutionized this Besides, what can a zerg do that really scares toss? Force fields HELLO?
** If a zerg is 100 supply ahead of you becuz of spines then you are doing something wrong.
** Agreed that infestors are bullshit
** Infested terrans be 50 energy?
I fail to understand what Bisu revolutionized, everything he did had been done before he did it, it's just his mechanics that were way better
Yeah I'm with SaSe, something needs to be done about infestors at the very least. The reason they were reluctantly accepted despite being so strong was the old 'Zerg has no other good units', with HoTs on the way and very few if any infestor tweakers appearing, I'm not sure they merit being quite as powerful anymore.
I'm also with SaSe on the warpin point. Nothing more frustrating than trying to warp to block a runby, only for that SPECIFIC spot to not allow warpins because it's on some imperceptible hill.
Protoss also needs some kind of core unit that isn't slow as hell, it's why we can't move out without being in a big ball and is a big contributory factor as to why Toss turtle so much.
It doesnt make sence for infestors to have unborrow ability and retreat after a battle, cuz obvservers are slower? Observers have an upgrade, use it? ...I agree entirely on the mothership, IT HAS TO GO! dull and BORINGASHELL.
And the infestor....jesus crist ...what a boring unit........It ruins the zerg. To me personally, its nothing zergy about it. The unit initself is so incredible good(nothing wrong with it) but you cant punish a zerg that builds it, the zerg can make it everysingle game blindly and still have they very effective, its their core unit ... I cant see any good reason for that unit whatsoever, boring for zerg and boring for protoss/terran and boring for viewers and boring for our goats
On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.
I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry.
That´s exactly how i feel, i used to play and watch nothing but SC2 until about 2 month or so, but the current metagame is so stagnant and just plain boring now. In my opinion it´s very flawed gamedesign, that if you take one unit away the whole race brakes apart. This limits build diversity and everything starts to get repetitive. Sentries/Infestors are supposed to be support-units, not gamewinner/loser.
On November 03 2012 15:15 Foxxan wrote: It doesnt make sence for infestors to have unborrow ability and retreat after a battle, cuz obvservers are slower? Observers have an upgrade, use it? ...I agree entirely on the mothership, IT HAS TO GO! dull and BORINGASHELL.
And the infestor....jesus crist ...what a boring unit........It ruins the zerg. To me personally, its nothing zergy about it. The unit initself is so incredible good(nothing wrong with it) but you cant punish a zerg that builds it, the zerg can make it everysingle game blindly and still have they very effective, its their core unit ... I cant see any good reason for that unit whatsoever, boring for zerg and boring for protoss/terran and boring for viewers and boring for our goats
Blizzard 'we nerfed the ghost because we felt the spellcasters shouldn't be massable and good in all lategame situations' - Just watched Yugioh have an endgame army of 25+ infestors.
I'm not bitching, I'm not a particularly good player either but every successful PvZ I see is either a 2 base all-in, a 3 base pre-Brood timing. I don't even see Protoss winning with vortexes for the last couple of weeks either, Zerg got better at splitting. I was playing ladder the other day, near ragequit after the 5th consecutive lategame loss to Inf/BL. My opponent and I was talking, and he said 2 base timings were really hard to hold as well. The problem is I KNOW this, I just really would like to play a more lategame-centric style. I haven't lost yet with the immortal/sentry allin, even when I do it suboptimally, by my lategame win% is probably 20% being generous.
HerO's/JYP's warp prism harass approach is cool, and I love watching those styles but Zerg have just tightened up their lategame a good bit these days and it seems to be notably less successful against good player.
I think Sase really emphasis the core problem of PvZ being the fact that Zerg is able to use non supply units to almost kill the Protoss army in its entirity before they can even attempt to pick off the core units. Spines combined with Infested Terran and Broodlings simply makes battles against a Zerg next to near impossible to be even remotely cost efficent against spines and infestors particularly, they simply just buffer to well and tank all the damage while the high tier expensive units of Zerg sit back and laugh.
I also attribute a lot of the current balance to the maps though, originally maps with small chokes were amazing for Protoss but now we are seeing that in the late game against Zerg this becomes a huge problem against late game Zerg. Maps like Daybreak and Ohana are atrocious and imo shoulden't be played on but considering they are the best maps in our current pool this is just a testament to how poor tournaments/blizzard has been in terms of rotation of new maps.
In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch.