Burrow vs Cloak - Page 10
Forum Index > SC2 General |
Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
| ||
Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
kafkaesque
Germany2006 Posts
With such a cheap upgrade like burrow, how come more Terrans aren't bitching about and more Zergs aren't using it? Forcing at least one scan? Yes please! Denying two expansions for one supply? Yes please! Making the Terran over-cautious by implying threat of burrowed banes? Yes please! Burrowing a Zergling at crucial junctures for undeteced scouting? Yes please! Saving drones from Hellion-harrass or at the very least make them blow a scan each time? Yes please! It seems like such a versatile upgrade that I can't believe Zergs aren't doing more with it, given that Infestors are considered standard-play nowadays. | ||
Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
Infested Terrans will get shut down hard if you just throw them unto the opponents army. Infested Terrans on sieged tanks is strong, but just punishing the lack of detection (a Terran should at least have to build a single missile turrret when sieging up, much like Flash did and how it was played in Brood War). So the remaining thing is Infested Terrans to destroy an expansion. You would use four infestors for that job, and lob 32 IT total onto that building. Now you kill that expansion, but if your opponent did not have a cannon there anyway (that would have killed 1-2 infestors) or a turret next to his PF, 4 DTs would have been just as fast in most instances, plus they would not be useless for the next two minutes if they could escape (infestors are). Yes, there are borderline cases where burrowed infestors are pretty strong, but it is the only non-stationary zerg unit that can do ANYTHING while being cloaked. In fact, Zerg lacks units that can do anything while burrowed, and detection vs Zerg is not really necessary enough at the moment. Plus infestors can't even use more than just IT when burrowed. Imagine a Ghost that could neither attack, snipe, nor EMP when cloaked, just Nuke? That would be silly, right? You would have to use all your stuff while uncloaked, and then cloak trying to escape (not just cloak before the battle and laugh as you get all your Ghosts out of a lost battle, while assisting with good spells). And now imagine the Ghost eating too much and being as fat as a Thor (with double his Hitbox, as the Thor Hitbox seems to be way too small, considering how you can stack units with them). Now your 5-10 fat Ghosts suddenly block all your marines and marauders, you can only attack with half your army, and cannot stutterstep because two fat Ghosts sit in the way. Welcome to the infestor. If anything, burrow is underpowered, and the fact that Pro's haven't cought onto spotting burrowed units yet is just because it is not much of a relevant skill to have. Sniping observers grants you map control, allows for sneaky stuff/gets you strategic advantages, and you can do it in every TvP, whereas there is rarely any situation where you could spot burrow movement in TvZ. That being said, i'm pretty sure i watched a game yesterday where the last remaining zerg units (a lot of infestors) got spotted burrowing under the opponents army. Scan - end of game. So Pros do it already, just not as frequently. | ||
Tuczniak
1561 Posts
| ||
DwmC_Foefen
Belgium2186 Posts
| ||
Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
apple op God tl is turning into bnet forums 2.0 | ||
Illiterate
Netherlands49 Posts
On November 11 2012 16:02 washikie wrote: people don't prepare because turrets are expensive and at a high level those 125 minerals per turret can really add up, would you rather have piece of mind vs a tactic that is used some times but not consistently or an extra 6 marines so that if he does not go cloak/burrow you have a stronger push. heck 6 marines is 2 riens and a medivac short of a drop and drops are really valubole to t. Plus in tvp, alot of terran builds revolve around hitting an optimal timing to put p behind and turrets slow any timing you want to do down. and in tvz alot of terrans do already build blind turrets at their mineral lines in the main to deal with a muta timing if they dont have adiquite scouting so any additional turrets just add more to that already blind investment and take more unnecessary wind of the terran army. Wow, math is hard. Turrets are 100 minerals, not 125. That's 2 marines, not 6. Anyone would gladly miss 2 marines on 2 bases to be safe vs any kind of infestor/roach runby. Otherwise, build a depot wall! Even better, build both! Problem solved. For the record, I am against changing burrow or burrow movement in any way, it is fine. I spot burrowed moving units all the time, less so than cloaked banshees/observers, but that's fine. I also build pre-emptive spores at my expansions in the mid game against any kind of cloaked shenanigans. Definitely worth the investment, other races should learn to do it too. | ||
Angry.Zerg
Mexico305 Posts
| ||
ckunkel1
United States181 Posts
| ||
doffe
Sweden636 Posts
And the the comparing between DTs, banshees and burrow movement is just stupid. Its different units, different abilities.. its not meant to be the same. Surely the collosus range is alot better then the hydra range upgrade but how come its just 50 50 more expensive!!!..... give me a break. They are completly different mechanics and just because you have problems detecting them doesnt mean its broken. have a cannon/turret in the chokes and a raven, obs with you army and burrowed units shall never get past you undetected... or dont and cry on the forums! your call... | ||
D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
| ||
doffe
Sweden636 Posts
On November 11 2012 21:10 kafkaesque wrote: I rather don't see how this is so little of a problem in TvZ. With such a cheap upgrade like burrow, how come more Terrans aren't bitching about and more Zergs aren't using it? Forcing at least one scan? Yes please! Denying two expansions for one supply? Yes please! Making the Terran over-cautious by implying threat of burrowed banes? Yes please! Burrowing a Zergling at crucial junctures for undeteced scouting? Yes please! Saving drones from Hellion-harrass or at the very least make them blow a scan each time? Yes please! It seems like such a versatile upgrade that I can't believe Zergs aren't doing more with it, given that Infestors are considered standard-play nowadays. I actually think that more or less every prozerg gets burrow in the mid/lategame vs T? I see them burrow lings at expansions all the time... not sure what games you are watching :p | ||
D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
On November 11 2012 22:34 Nachtwind wrote: apple vs peach apple op God tl is turning into bnet forums 2.0 /sign The most ppl have no clue what those changes would do, im glad blizz doesnt listen to TL. Just go back to twitter and do your #Savehots stuff. | ||
PRESIZirox
France20 Posts
On November 10 2012 04:39 habeck wrote: different race, different things. | ||
doffe
Sweden636 Posts
On November 11 2012 14:51 Rabiator wrote: Explain to me why the Infestor is NOT overpowered with its abilities. Just compare them to the Raven and use everything applicable for example the question "how dense can autoturrets be stacked" and then figure out the same for Infested Terrans. How about the casting ranges? How about the energy cost for autoturret/Infested Terran or Seeker Missile/Fungal Growth. You will notice a defiite advantage for the Infestor who is cheaper and lower tech as well. If the Raven is balanced then the Infestor isnt and even though the Raven is "a little weak" the Infestor is much stronger than that small lack of power and Fungal Growth alone is a stupid spell ... which has been explained in depth already. So who is "biased" here? I dont play Starcraft 2 at all anymore but watch games and it is VERY BORING to see the "no skill needed and no risk involved 9 range Fungal Growth" be used to kill everything. Neither is sneaking a bunch of Infestors in/next to a base and lobbing an insane amount of Infested Terrans in there to annihilate the base. You forget one thing: These things have been "racially specific" for Terran and Protoss ever since BW. Burrowed movement has been added to the game for SC2 and it IS powerful. Just because people dont use it doesnt make it weak. you cant really say that fungal is better the seeker missile and that IT is better then AT? What makes the infestor more used is not its superior abilities its that its so much easier to have the infrastructure to get alot of them out. I actually think that if you could build ravens from larva you would make those instead of infestors :p. but hey, personally I agree that the infestor is a boring unit. Anything that stuns is boring, Balance aside i think its a designflaw and would have nothing at all against them removing fungal aslong as something else is added. People seem to forget sometime that zergs dont only make infestors cause they are so good, they make them cause lategame max vs max its damn close to impossible to win without them. Remove the infestor and we truly need something else. | ||
609_uu
Finland8 Posts
On November 12 2012 01:11 D4V3Z02 wrote: You are forgetting that zerg units cant attack when burrowed lol. The balance whining on TL is terrible the last weeks. because infested terrans thrown next to tanks just before a clicking ur units in isn't bs? | ||
Cinquedea
Canada144 Posts
| ||
goiflin
Canada1217 Posts
And even if it's different between races, I don't see why it would be imbalanced. It's more about balancing those units around their type of cloaking (IE: Terran cloak units, due to only having temporary cloak, would have to get more damage done within that time span than other units, zerg units not being able to be seen should make it so that they can't attack while burrowed). The only real change that I'd suggest, if it were imbalanced, is not being able to throw IT's while burrowed. On November 12 2012 01:26 Cinquedea wrote: Let's not make SC2 more asymmetrical please This so much. Difference between races is good. | ||
D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
On November 12 2012 01:24 609_uu wrote: because infested terrans thrown next to tanks just before a clicking ur units in isn't bs? Infested terrans still arent Invisible, just build a sensor tower? You should get punished by high tech units when you have no detection. | ||
| ||