I think there is one important aspect of this that is not being discussed. The reason we often see players snap scanning and killing observers or DTs is that they come at predictable times. Protoss almost always make observer right after robo finishes and send it to the enemy base. Terran's thus develop a sense of when the obs is going to show up and keep an eye out for it. Also, it is quite predictable that a obs may be following the army around or be waiting outside a choke point. Thus the terran player will be looking out for it. With DTs the situation is the same. A player will get some kind of inclination that DTs may/will be coming (through scouting, etc) and then be on the lookout for DTs trying to run into the main. These are the situations where cloaked units are commonly spotted.
With burrow, there are not predictable burrow plays that are seen in many games. If roach burrow movement rushes became very popular, you can bet that you would see players snap scanning, etc when these attacks were happening.
I think this has a lot to do with the discrepancy that you are referring to. Although, I will say that the visibility of burrowed units does vary a lot depending of map terrain. On some terrain types, I think the argument can be made that they are harder to spot that cloaked units.
On November 10 2012 04:45 RiSkyToss wrote: A very very good point, IMO cloaked units are TOO easy to spot, and burrowed units are too difficult to spot... So both should be slightly altered.
cloaked units are not too easy to spot, burrowed units are too hard to spot
On November 10 2012 04:38 S_SienZ wrote: Can someone please confirm the visibility of burrow and how it compares to cloaked units?
It just seems odd that Terrans like Taeja who insta-scan whenever an observer is in sight don't scan when infestors are close, and en masse as well.
burrowed units are just a lot harder to see physically. While cloak shows as a blur, burrowed units show as an extremely hard to spot slightly darker spot in the ground. The graphic for burrowed units is just inherently harder to see
On November 10 2012 04:48 NoobSkills wrote: You cannot attack while burrowed, you can attack while cloaked. Zerg units burrow, but don't attack while burrowed. Terran has expensive upgrade, but cheap units that use cloak for a short time. Protoss has expensive units (gas) and expensive tech to get to those units, so the cloak is permanent. It makes sens amirite? Also, I don't know if you don't get this, but the races aren't supposed to be equal. You use the advantages of whatever unit you're making, rather than making everything equal. If everything was equal there wouldn't be a need for 3 races. I'm glad everyone seems to be fixing the game for Blizzard, a game developing company, that is clueless I agree, but that everyone seems to know more than them o_O
The problem is that if I do a burrowed infestor attack vs some random plat, it will work. If I do burrowed infestor attack vs taeja, it will work. If I do a cloaked attack vs random plat, it will work. If I do a cloaked attack vs taeja, it will get smacked down. Making burrow infestor more visible seems like an excellent thing to help stop stupid losses because you never really had a chance to see the burrowed infestor following your army then lobbing IT on your tanks and then destroying you. Give terrans the chance to see that stuff, just like they have a chance to see observers. It will only help the game to let more skilled players stop some tactics better than less skilled players.
that is completely not true, 1 missile turret will completly shut down burrowed infestor play that would be completely insufficient vs banshee play. Burrowed infestors ride on mistakes unlike all cloak units
omg, i'm not trying to get into a fight here, but 1 missile turret shuts down banshees as well. And unlesss you wanna cover your entire base with turrets..... or you have lightning reactions and minimap awareness that even taeja doesn't have.... but this isn't a major problem. the problem is that unless terrans PRE split against zerg, they will lose. Fungal is as broken as vortex, as it doesn't rely on your skill it relies on your opponent not preparing. Even if he is watching his army, anyone can f-left click faster than the terran can react. but removing the infestor isn't right, as they are integral parts of the zerg army, and unless they're abilities are moved to another unit like the viper,all we will see for the forseeable future is mass infestors
On November 10 2012 05:22 SecondSandwich wrote: I think there is one important aspect of this that is not being discussed. The reason we often see players snap scanning and killing observers or DTs is that they come at predictable times. Protoss almost always make observer right after robo finishes and send it to the enemy base. Terran's thus develop a sense of when the obs is going to show up and keep an eye out for it. Also, it is quite predictable that a obs may be following the army around or be waiting outside a choke point. Thus the terran player will be looking out for it. With DTs the situation is the same. A player will get some kind of inclination that DTs may/will be coming (through scouting, etc) and then be on the lookout for DTs trying to run into the main. These are the situations where cloaked units are commonly spotted.
With burrow, there are not predictable burrow plays that are seen in many games. If roach burrow movement rushes became very popular, you can bet that you would see players snap scanning, etc when these attacks were happening.
I think this has a lot to do with the discrepancy that you are referring to. Although, I will say that the visibility of burrowed units does vary a lot depending of map terrain. On some terrain types, I think the argument can be made that they are harder to spot that cloaked units.
That argument only holds if Terrans were only good at scanning the first observer, given the timing.
But if you look at most games by Taeja, and others good at obs killing like Flash, it's not uncommon to see them killing 4-5 observers a game.
Build detection and stop creating more QQ Threads about Zerg... this is getting annoying... first the infestor, now burrow .. whats next?.. its rly getting frustrating for a zerg to see the whole community trying to force changes just because they are bad at playing against something or lazy just to figure something out to beat it .... man i wish i were korean so i dont have to take these QQs anymore
On November 10 2012 04:42 WaesumNinja wrote: What's up with this recent crusade against infestors? I keep seeing threads like these popping up everywhere, filled with biased people.
I kind of hope that all of these threads and suggested changes are coming up because people want to change the current meta with zerg since infestor is used in every matchup. But in reality it is probably because they want their matchup to be easier and have to put in less effort when playing against zerg.
So the reason why you dont want it changed is because you pefere your match ups to be easy and put less effort in?
Burrow research allow ALL the zerg units to burrow!
Well, when you think about it, burrowed hydralisks are not exactly the most threatening army ever. If a cloaked banshee is efficient, it's because it can actually attack while being invisible. Most burrowed units can't attack, and have no "substantial" benefits apart from being invisible (except infestors, banelings, and with a research, roaches)
On November 10 2012 05:30 NesquiKGG wrote: Build detection and stop creating more QQ Threads about Zerg... this is getting annoying... first the infestor, now burrow .. whats next?.. its rly getting frustrating for a zerg to see the whole community trying to force changes just because they are bad at playing against something or lazy just to figure something out to beat it .... man i wish i were korean so i dont have to take these QQs anymore
The rest of TL wishes you were korean aswell, because then you coudent understand us and would likely piss off
i agree. burrow movement is not visible enough like how its designed to be. well not to a point where its obvious. but make it so that its not impossible to spot. they needa find the right spot for this one. also depend on the map imo
On November 10 2012 05:22 SecondSandwich wrote: I think there is one important aspect of this that is not being discussed. The reason we often see players snap scanning and killing observers or DTs is that they come at predictable times. Protoss almost always make observer right after robo finishes and send it to the enemy base. Terran's thus develop a sense of when the obs is going to show up and keep an eye out for it. Also, it is quite predictable that a obs may be following the army around or be waiting outside a choke point. Thus the terran player will be looking out for it. With DTs the situation is the same. A player will get some kind of inclination that DTs may/will be coming (through scouting, etc) and then be on the lookout for DTs trying to run into the main. These are the situations where cloaked units are commonly spotted.
With burrow, there are not predictable burrow plays that are seen in many games. If roach burrow movement rushes became very popular, you can bet that you would see players snap scanning, etc when these attacks were happening.
I think this has a lot to do with the discrepancy that you are referring to. Although, I will say that the visibility of burrowed units does vary a lot depending of map terrain. On some terrain types, I think the argument can be made that they are harder to spot that cloaked units.
That argument only holds if Terrans were only good at scanning the first observer, given the timing.
But if you look at most games by Taeja, and others good at obs killing like Flash, it's not uncommon to see them killing 4-5 observers a game.
Yes, but it is usually 4-5 iterations of killing an observer that is following the army, which is predictable. Along these lines, one of the common situations in which we see infestors killed is in MechVZ when the infestor infiltrates the seige position to later drop eggs. This tactic is becoming common enough (as with obs follow army or wait outside choke) that terrans are starting to scan and kill these sneaky infestors.
The burrow movement animation isn't that hard to spot. Also, comparing burrow of zerg with cloak of other races is silly to begin with but burrowed units cant attack. As for the banshee and ghost cloak cost; banshees with cloak are a flying unit that can attack while cloaked, which is very powerful as there are no boundaries as to where is can come in and attack. As for the ghost; the ghost can drop nukes, attack, and snipe while cloaked so I'd say the cost is justified.
I have to assume this is being brought up due to the "zerg op" trend but the problem is not with burrow, it's with infestor broodlord, or maybe solely the infestor, so just focus on that. Nerfing everything the zerg has at once will break the race for obvious reasons.
Yeah I agree with the OP, it doesn't make any sense that observers and DTs get free cloak. Considering the DPS of DTs compared to roach and ghost, it should probably cost ~350/350. I'm thinking that observers can't attack but they are flying so maybe 100/150 for their cloaking upgrade.
Oh I forgot the free mothership mass cloak. Cost should probably be pretty severe for a durable flying fighting casting mass cloaking ship. Maybe 200/400 with constant energy drain while enabled.