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4713 Posts
On November 11 2012 07:21 Forumite wrote: You can´t attack with burrowed units, you can at most suprise an enemy without detection even with roaches. On the other hand Banshees will kill you if you don´t have detection. Cloak is and always was much stronger than burrowing.
If any change needs to be done, then they should make burrow cheaper and add burrowed movement to banelings.
You have no idea what you are saying, burrow movement to banelings is an incredibly broken mechanic, Blizzard where already wise to remove it from HoTS when they figured it out.
As for Cloak vs Burrow, I'm mostly ok with how both of them are, they both have their upsides and downsides, with one exception.
Burrow movement, this is where burrow starts to become a bit too similar to cloak, so far the downside of burrow was, units can't move or attack, now however one of those downsides has been removed and it gives burrow a much larger versatility given that units are much, much harder to detect while moving in burrow, and burrow movement doesn't cost energy.
Burrow movement should be made more visible so that it is on par with cloak. Roaches are ok, they heal while burrowed but can't attack, and require an upgrade. Infestors are indeed problematic, being able to not only move without requiring an upgrade, but also being able to use a spell while underground and having very good mobility.
Infestors shouldn't be able to move underground without an upgrade or shouldn't be able to cast while underground.
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as said.. they're completely different things.. and are completely vulnerable while burrowed while cloaked units are not.
I vote for fine the way it is.
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"Zerg doesn't have an energy removal spell or cliff walking ability, while both other races do. I don't think that's fair." "Stop trying to make all the races identical, they're different for a reason." "That races invis is better than mine in certain situations!" "BURN BLIZZARD TO THE FUCKING GROUND."
I don't understand why we're complaining about burrow of all spells. I mean, Terran buildings can fucking fly, that's marginally better than other races buildings. Why don't you QQ about that obvious imbalance instead of slight visibility differences because you can't be bothered making detection at the choke points that burrowed units still have to use, or keeping some with your army?
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from experience, if you know its there, its as easy to spot as cloak. But I think the problem lies in the fact that the image also usually looks like the background and blends in extremely well, and hence makes it very difficult to spot. I don't think I've ever spotted a moving burrowed infestor via the tracing.
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I have never had any trouble seeing moving burrowed units, meanwhile I can't see an observer without detection to save my life. Must be my eyes.
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Interesting. I didn't even know that you can see burrowed units at all.
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Honestly I do see your point and I was wondering this as well. But I would prefer to give it maybe 3 more years and see if there are still almost no pro gamers who are able to spot, if it's still not the case you may as well make it more visible. Because tbh the game is still changing so much atm that it's hard to tell whether pro gamers even have the time to solely focus on improving their burrow vision, which I highly doubt, and changing anything about how visible it is may turn burrow from being super viable to total trash.
So I say lets give it some more time, because quiet frankly like 5 months from now some random Korean terran may start to catch every investor hit-squad trying to sneak in, and it would be ashame if we made something easier that may actually be doable.
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On November 10 2012 04:45 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 04:43 Blezza wrote: Burrow is just a completely different thing, all zerg ground units but two cant move while burrowed and bear in mind that any burrowed unit is a sitting duck atleast DT's or banshees can run away. Burrow is completely different from other races cloacking, thats why its like that Note that no one has a problem with burrowed banes or zerglings being virtually invisible, it's precisely Infestors that are mostly the problem here. Unloading a ton of ITs does much more damage than a small group of banshees or DTs, and doesn't even cost gas. oh? the infestors were free? I'm sick of all this balance whine...
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Yeah, burrow is basically the whole zerg race can cloak...functioning as an observer...etc.
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On November 11 2012 09:34 dynwar7 wrote: Yeah, burrow is basically the whole zerg race can cloak...functioning as an observer...etc. Except they cant fly or detect, most cant move while burrowed and have greatly reduced vision...basically absolutely nothing like an observer except for the cloaked part.
I think there's also an imbalance with Nexus and Hatch vs CC. I mean, when Protoss and Zerg try to take an expansion, not only do they have to build it directly at the expansion, theyre also committed once the buildings complete. They also can't repair those buildings. It just seems imbalanced since P and Z have to take so much more risk to take an expansion than T does. /sarcasm
I honestly think that "burrow vs cloak visibility" is just too trivial of an issue. If were gonna be mad about that, what about every other racial difference? If the burrow vs cloak was really such a big issue, then where's the complaints about roaches? It sounds much more like your gripe is with infestors than burrow.
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I say other because baneling landmines are already kinda gimmicky and I don't want every terran to automatically see the banelings. I'd say make it more visible when burrowed units are moving because I agree burrowed roaches and infestors are pretty hard to catch.
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You're under the assumption that pros actually stare at the main screen looking for small ripples to find a cloaked unit.
This is half-true. They will do it if there's reason to (reads, timings, saw cloak researching/activating/etc.) but otherwise they play far too fast to actually be concentrating on the "now" as opposed to "the next action". The ability to play ahead is actually one of the hallmarks of a pro (vs. an amateur).
Burrow research is difficult if not impossible to spot and while the actual trail that burrow movement leaves behind is visible, it's very difficult to spot them as opposed to a lone observer or banshee because there are usually many more things going on (infestors moving in to counter-attack a Terran base while harassment is going on vs. an observer moving out to spot a terran army when both players are macroing up).
As people use more burrow and tactical/strategic patterns begin to emerge, it will become easier for players to spot burrow plays. For now, a cautionary turret in the front of scanning as you leapfrog tanks to prevent infested terran bombings are a lot of what you're going to see.
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Cloak is an integral component of 2 races it's expected you would face it on average 66% more than burrow and aquaint yourself with cloaked units as compared to burrowed units and even then most zergs don't get it
It's silly really you want ways for the best to separate themselves and noticing the shaded ground is one of those ways but now you want to make it more obvious so everyone and their mother can do it?
The starcraft community is very contradicting at times also it's not impossible to see I've found infestor hit squads going to numerous bases multiple times the only difficult thing about noticing it is requiring the pre knowledge that they've researched it which in itself works as a component of the effectiveness of burrow
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On November 11 2012 07:21 Forumite wrote: You can´t attack with burrowed units, you can at most suprise an enemy without detection even with roaches. On the other hand Banshees will kill you if you don´t have detection. Cloak is and always was much stronger than burrowing.
If any change needs to be done, then they should make burrow cheaper and add burrowed movement to banelings. Trolling?
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Borrowing is great and fine as it is. The game should not be symmetrical
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I have a question that might have already been asked: are there differences in the burrow animation in different graphic settings? I play on lowest and it's literally impossible to spot burrowed stuff... but how about on high/ultra/extreme? Is there a difference?
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- I don't think burrow is too hard to spot - This isn't the step needed in regards to resolving balance issues
It's fine the way it is.
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On November 10 2012 04:40 Nimelrian wrote: It is just as visible as cloaked units.
Burrowed Units moving around can be seen by a dark shade moving over the map, very easy to spot. Not sure if serious.. because it is not as visible by any means. That's like somebody saying "I think it's unfair that ultralisks do more damage than marines" and then I reply "1 marine does just as much damage as 1 ultralisk".
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I like the difficulty to see burrow movement. It rewards players who prepare well. Have a wall-off? Can't get through. Have a well placed turret/cannon? Spotted as you come in. A reason to use a raven? Always a good thing. Hunting down burrowed infesters that make it through is taxing for the player and enjoyable to the viewer, getting more play like this and less deathball is what SC2 should strive for.
I'm also fine with cloak being easier to see. Cloak is far more often used to get an early insta-win with fast DTs or fast banshees.
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