|
On November 11 2012 12:56 Kettchup wrote: I like the difficulty to see burrow movement. It rewards players who prepare well. Have a wall-off? Can't get through. Have a well placed turret/cannon? Spotted as you come in. A reason to use a raven? Always a good thing. Hunting down burrowed infesters that make it through is taxing for the player and enjoyable to the viewer, getting more play like this and less deathball is what SC2 should strive for.
I'm also fine with cloak being easier to see. Cloak is far more often used to get an early insta-win with fast DTs or fast banshees.
I agree, the reason people get destroyed by burrowed movement is not that it is hard to see but because they do not prepare. For example if I do not think or prepare for DT's in ZvT and 6 dt's turn up with 0 detection I get destroyed. I have often wondered why Terran's do not throw down a turret at the main entrances to their bases? And likewise why a Protoss doesn't throw down a cannon at the entrances. It isn't like the infestors turn up when Protoss doesn't have a forge and Terran doesn't have a engineering bay. Rather then ask why is it hard to see, I think we should ask, why do people not prepare?
Z
|
On November 10 2012 05:20 Bagi wrote: Visible burrowed roaches would make the skill useless. Even now its rarely used.
I would suggest finding another way to nerf the infestor, keep burrow as it is.
I agree. I think that the Infestor should be nerfed directly (no IT while burrowed)
If you want to nerf this aspect of Burrow, you should buff it somewhere else because nobody will ever research it for Roaches if you nerf it (and they barely do as is).
|
I think they should make all the burrowed units visible, but not attackable.
|
On November 10 2012 04:36 Incomplet wrote:Burrow vs CloakShow nested quote +Zerg Burrow: 100m, 100g, 100 research time Allows ALL Zerg ground units to burrow, infestors to move underground + use eggs, banelings to detonate underground.
Tunnelling claws: 150m, 150g, 110 research time Allows roaches to move underground. Increase HP regeneration underground.
Terran Banshee Cloak: 200m, 200m, 110 research time. Only cloak for banshees.
Ghost cloak: 150m, 150g, 120 time Only cloak for ghost.
Protoss Observer and DT have an innate permanent cloak. Mothership cloaks other units. Please excuse any typos, wrote all this on phone.
wait wait, you forgot one thing:
Terran Banshee Cloak: 200m, 200m, 110 research time. Only cloak for banshees, CAN STILL ATTACK
Ghost cloak: 150m, 150g, 120 time Only cloak for ghost , CAN STILL ATTACK
Protoss Observer and DT have an innate permanent cloak. Mothership cloaks other units, CAN STILL ATTACK
|
On November 11 2012 14:14 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 04:36 Incomplet wrote:Burrow vs CloakZerg Burrow: 100m, 100g, 100 research time Allows ALL Zerg ground units to burrow, infestors to move underground + use eggs, banelings to detonate underground.
Tunnelling claws: 150m, 150g, 110 research time Allows roaches to move underground. Increase HP regeneration underground.
Terran Banshee Cloak: 200m, 200m, 110 research time. Only cloak for banshees.
Ghost cloak: 150m, 150g, 120 time Only cloak for ghost.
Protoss Observer and DT have an innate permanent cloak. Mothership cloaks other units. Please excuse any typos, wrote all this on phone. wait wait, you forgot one thing: TerranBanshee Cloak: 200m, 200m, 110 research time. Only cloak for banshees, CAN STILL ATTACK Ghost cloak: 150m, 150g, 120 time Only cloak for ghost , CAN STILL ATTACK ProtossObserver and DT have an innate permanent cloak. Mothership cloaks other units, CAN STILL ATTACK
1. You can't compare like that. Zerg can pay 100/100 to have ALL their ground units get cloak. As protoss, you have to pay an extreme amount of gas for each perma cloaked dt (that will probably get detected with the new ultra-cheap overseers).
2. "Mothership can still attack" - yeah, except nobody ever researches +air attack just for 1 unit. A mothership deals 2,7 dps vs an upgraded corruptor. 8food unit, 2,7 dps. To give you some perspective, a 1food unupgraded marine deals 10,5 dps.
edit: and I think you failed to understand the OP's point. The point wasn't which cloak was stronger, the point was that it's extreeemely easy to see cloaked units while it's impossible to see cloaked units on creep, and still extremely hard to see them offcreep, basically impossible there too unless you get really really lucky.
|
On November 10 2012 04:42 WaesumNinja wrote: What's up with this recent crusade against infestors? I keep seeing threads like these popping up everywhere, filled with biased people. Explain to me why the Infestor is NOT overpowered with its abilities. Just compare them to the Raven and use everything applicable for example the question "how dense can autoturrets be stacked" and then figure out the same for Infested Terrans. How about the casting ranges? How about the energy cost for autoturret/Infested Terran or Seeker Missile/Fungal Growth. You will notice a defiite advantage for the Infestor who is cheaper and lower tech as well. If the Raven is balanced then the Infestor isnt and even though the Raven is "a little weak" the Infestor is much stronger than that small lack of power and Fungal Growth alone is a stupid spell ... which has been explained in depth already.
So who is "biased" here?
On November 10 2012 04:46 QQKachoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 04:42 WaesumNinja wrote: What's up with this recent crusade against infestors? I keep seeing threads like these popping up everywhere, filled with biased people. I kind of hope that all of these threads and suggested changes are coming up because people want to change the current meta with zerg since infestor is used in every matchup. But in reality it is probably because they want their matchup to be easier and have to put in less effort when playing against zerg. I dont play Starcraft 2 at all anymore but watch games and it is VERY BORING to see the "no skill needed and no risk involved 9 range Fungal Growth" be used to kill everything. Neither is sneaking a bunch of Infestors in/next to a base and lobbing an insane amount of Infested Terrans in there to annihilate the base.
On November 11 2012 14:14 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 04:36 Incomplet wrote:Burrow vs CloakZerg Burrow: 100m, 100g, 100 research time Allows ALL Zerg ground units to burrow, infestors to move underground + use eggs, banelings to detonate underground.
Tunnelling claws: 150m, 150g, 110 research time Allows roaches to move underground. Increase HP regeneration underground.
Terran Banshee Cloak: 200m, 200m, 110 research time. Only cloak for banshees.
Ghost cloak: 150m, 150g, 120 time Only cloak for ghost.
Protoss Observer and DT have an innate permanent cloak. Mothership cloaks other units. Please excuse any typos, wrote all this on phone. wait wait, you forgot one thing: TerranBanshee Cloak: 200m, 200m, 110 research time. Only cloak for banshees, CAN STILL ATTACK Ghost cloak: 150m, 150g, 120 time Only cloak for ghost , CAN STILL ATTACK ProtossObserver and DT have an innate permanent cloak. Mothership cloaks other units, CAN STILL ATTACK You forget one thing: These things have been "racially specific" for Terran and Protoss ever since BW. Burrowed movement has been added to the game for SC2 and it IS powerful. Just because people dont use it doesnt make it weak.
|
On November 11 2012 14:42 ErAsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 14:14 worldsnap wrote:On November 10 2012 04:36 Incomplet wrote:Burrow vs CloakZerg Burrow: 100m, 100g, 100 research time Allows ALL Zerg ground units to burrow, infestors to move underground + use eggs, banelings to detonate underground.
Tunnelling claws: 150m, 150g, 110 research time Allows roaches to move underground. Increase HP regeneration underground.
Terran Banshee Cloak: 200m, 200m, 110 research time. Only cloak for banshees.
Ghost cloak: 150m, 150g, 120 time Only cloak for ghost.
Protoss Observer and DT have an innate permanent cloak. Mothership cloaks other units. Please excuse any typos, wrote all this on phone. wait wait, you forgot one thing: TerranBanshee Cloak: 200m, 200m, 110 research time. Only cloak for banshees, CAN STILL ATTACK Ghost cloak: 150m, 150g, 120 time Only cloak for ghost , CAN STILL ATTACK ProtossObserver and DT have an innate permanent cloak. Mothership cloaks other units, CAN STILL ATTACK 1. You can't compare like that. Zerg can pay 100/100 to have ALL their ground units get cloak. As protoss, you have to pay an extreme amount of gas for each perma cloaked dt (that will probably get detected with the new ultra-cheap overseers). 2. "Mothership can still attack" - yeah, except nobody ever researches +air attack just for 1 unit. A mothership deals 2,7 dps vs an upgraded corruptor. 8food unit, 2,7 dps. To give you some perspective, a 1food unupgraded marine deals 10,5 dps. edit: and I think you failed to understand the OP's point. The point wasn't which cloak was stronger, the point was that it's extreeemely easy to see cloaked units while it's impossible to see cloaked units on creep, and still extremely hard to see them offcreep, basically impossible there too unless you get really really lucky.
1. what game are you playing that zerg units are free?
2. if we're comparing upgrades, why is it P units get one upgrade that ups teh shield of everyone of ALL their units =O
only reason it's easy to see cloak is cause of graphics settings, there's been quite a few of those threads already since start of beta. Meanwhile cloak has only really started becoming more used recently.
(also what are you doing on zerg creep without detection?)
|
ya it's really hard to see burrowed infestors moving >.<. I mean, in zvz, even when I see the infestors burrowing in front of me, I can't really tell where they are sometimes after 5 secs even if I'm actively looking for them O_o
|
Here are my two cents: I have never managed to spot an invisible observer, yet every now and then I spot burrowed roaches trying to get into my base in zvz.
Then again I play on the lowest graphics, so I don't know how this changes anything.
Rather than making it "more visible", wouldn't it be better for players to find a graphics setting that would allow them to see cloacked and burrowed units with the same ease?
|
Put burrow research on the spawning pool and reduce the cost.
|
Does burrow show up better or worse on low graphics, if its worse that may be part of the problem since most pros play on low graphics settings and therefore would be disadvantaged in this particular regard.
|
Burrowed units can't attack when burrowed. Cloaked units can. Burrowed units are never as dangerous as cloaked units. Q: "How often do I see a clutch scan and all the burrowed infestors are killed" A: Very, watch almost any ZvT with an infestor/ling build and you'll probably see a scan where infestors get killed.
The rarity of needing to detect burrowed units, and the rarity of their play both play a role in players not noticing burrow as easily. If you died as often to burrow roaches or infestors as banshees or dts then you would have an easier time, because it would be a significant factor. As is, it's insignificant..
|
On November 11 2012 13:15 zasg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 12:56 Kettchup wrote: I like the difficulty to see burrow movement. It rewards players who prepare well. Have a wall-off? Can't get through. Have a well placed turret/cannon? Spotted as you come in. A reason to use a raven? Always a good thing. Hunting down burrowed infesters that make it through is taxing for the player and enjoyable to the viewer, getting more play like this and less deathball is what SC2 should strive for.
I'm also fine with cloak being easier to see. Cloak is far more often used to get an early insta-win with fast DTs or fast banshees. I agree, the reason people get destroyed by burrowed movement is not that it is hard to see but because they do not prepare. For example if I do not think or prepare for DT's in ZvT and 6 dt's turn up with 0 detection I get destroyed. I have often wondered why Terran's do not throw down a turret at the main entrances to their bases? And likewise why a Protoss doesn't throw down a cannon at the entrances. It isn't like the infestors turn up when Protoss doesn't have a forge and Terran doesn't have a engineering bay. Rather then ask why is it hard to see, I think we should ask, why do people not prepare? Z people don't prepare because turrets are expensive and at a high level those 125 minerals per turret can really add up, would you rather have piece of mind vs a tactic that is used some times but not consistently or an extra 6 marines so that if he does not go cloak/burrow you have a stronger push. heck 6 marines is 2 riens and a medivac short of a drop and drops are really valubole to t. Plus in tvp, alot of terran builds revolve around hitting an optimal timing to put p behind and turrets slow any timing you want to do down. and in tvz alot of terrans do already build blind turrets at their mineral lines in the main to deal with a muta timing if they dont have adiquite scouting so any additional turrets just add more to that already blind investment and take more unnecessary wind of the terran army.
|
On November 11 2012 15:55 Sephiren wrote: Burrowed units can't attack when burrowed. Cloaked units can. Burrowed units are never as dangerous as cloaked units. Q: "How often do I see a clutch scan and all the burrowed infestors are killed" A: Very, watch almost any ZvT with an infestor/ling build and you'll probably see a scan where infestors get killed.
The rarity of needing to detect burrowed units, and the rarity of their play both play a role in players not noticing burrow as easily. If you died as often to burrow roaches or infestors as banshees or dts then you would have an easier time, because it would be a significant factor. As is, it's insignificant.. He meant burrowed infestors trying to sneak into an army or base, not fleeing infestors without backup.
Personally I would really like to see burrow movement removed from the infestor and burrow removed entirely from the baneling. The reason is that it requires nothing from a player to move infestors into bases where they can do potentially huge economical damage. And if they don't do a lot of damage there's always the damage from having to use sometimes 2-3 scans to kill them. So basically you can still burrow them after a fight and force scans to kill them but you can't, as I would describe it, "be gay with them". And concerning the baneling mines: they also require no skill but can give huge rewards, potentially winning the game, and the thought that you should have to scan every ramp you go up, because of potential mines, is beyond stupid.
I'd also remove the DT from the game as well if I could just because it's a no skill unit that gets inst-wins too often just because it isn't scouted. No way ever would a cloaked banshee or cloaked ghost, (or burrowed units for that matter) be as "insta-win" as dts are. They are just stupid. And even if you don't succeed with them you can make them into archons. How insanely good is that?!
|
On November 11 2012 16:02 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 13:15 zasg wrote:On November 11 2012 12:56 Kettchup wrote: I like the difficulty to see burrow movement. It rewards players who prepare well. Have a wall-off? Can't get through. Have a well placed turret/cannon? Spotted as you come in. A reason to use a raven? Always a good thing. Hunting down burrowed infesters that make it through is taxing for the player and enjoyable to the viewer, getting more play like this and less deathball is what SC2 should strive for.
I'm also fine with cloak being easier to see. Cloak is far more often used to get an early insta-win with fast DTs or fast banshees. I agree, the reason people get destroyed by burrowed movement is not that it is hard to see but because they do not prepare. For example if I do not think or prepare for DT's in ZvT and 6 dt's turn up with 0 detection I get destroyed. I have often wondered why Terran's do not throw down a turret at the main entrances to their bases? And likewise why a Protoss doesn't throw down a cannon at the entrances. It isn't like the infestors turn up when Protoss doesn't have a forge and Terran doesn't have a engineering bay. Rather then ask why is it hard to see, I think we should ask, why do people not prepare? Z people don't prepare because turrets are expensive and at a high level those 125 minerals per turret can really add up, would you rather have piece of mind vs a tactic that is used some times but not consistently or an extra 6 marines so that if he does not go cloak/burrow you have a stronger push. heck 6 marines is 2 riens and a medivac short of a drop and drops are really valubole to t. Plus in tvp, alot of terran builds revolve around hitting an optimal timing to put p behind and turrets slow any timing you want to do down. and in tvz alot of terrans do already build blind turrets at their mineral lines in the main to deal with a muta timing if they dont have adiquite scouting so any additional turrets just add more to that already blind investment and take more unnecessary wind of the terran army.
TvP is regardless as a point because we are really talking about burrowed units being difficult to spot.
If terran are already building turrets in a mineral line surely having one at the entrance to an expo can't hurt that bad? If I have seen infestors in play to be honest I would rather put a turret down then build 6 marines to know that I am protected. For the same reason in ZvT I will build a spine crawler to protect me 'encase' of hellions, or build spinecrawlers in my main 'encase' of a drop. There are many things we do in a game to protect from things that might happen, this might be something that T need to do if people are doing infestor plays. (I say T because protoss normally have cannons anyway)
|
On November 11 2012 14:54 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 14:42 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 11 2012 14:14 worldsnap wrote:On November 10 2012 04:36 Incomplet wrote:Burrow vs CloakZerg Burrow: 100m, 100g, 100 research time Allows ALL Zerg ground units to burrow, infestors to move underground + use eggs, banelings to detonate underground.
Tunnelling claws: 150m, 150g, 110 research time Allows roaches to move underground. Increase HP regeneration underground.
Terran Banshee Cloak: 200m, 200m, 110 research time. Only cloak for banshees.
Ghost cloak: 150m, 150g, 120 time Only cloak for ghost.
Protoss Observer and DT have an innate permanent cloak. Mothership cloaks other units. Please excuse any typos, wrote all this on phone. wait wait, you forgot one thing: TerranBanshee Cloak: 200m, 200m, 110 research time. Only cloak for banshees, CAN STILL ATTACK Ghost cloak: 150m, 150g, 120 time Only cloak for ghost , CAN STILL ATTACK ProtossObserver and DT have an innate permanent cloak. Mothership cloaks other units, CAN STILL ATTACK 1. You can't compare like that. Zerg can pay 100/100 to have ALL their ground units get cloak. As protoss, you have to pay an extreme amount of gas for each perma cloaked dt (that will probably get detected with the new ultra-cheap overseers). 2. "Mothership can still attack" - yeah, except nobody ever researches +air attack just for 1 unit. A mothership deals 2,7 dps vs an upgraded corruptor. 8food unit, 2,7 dps. To give you some perspective, a 1food unupgraded marine deals 10,5 dps. edit: and I think you failed to understand the OP's point. The point wasn't which cloak was stronger, the point was that it's extreeemely easy to see cloaked units while it's impossible to see cloaked units on creep, and still extremely hard to see them offcreep, basically impossible there too unless you get really really lucky. 1. what game are you playing that zerg units are free? 2. if we're comparing upgrades, why is it P units get one upgrade that ups teh shield of everyone of ALL their units =O only reason it's easy to see cloak is cause of graphics settings, there's been quite a few of those threads already since start of beta. Meanwhile cloak has only really started becoming more used recently. (also what are you doing on zerg creep without detection?)
1. Err... wtf are you talking about? :D A dt is a cloaked zealot more or less (less mobility, more damage). But you have to pay more than double the cost to get the cloak. Roaches' cost stays the same when they get their perma cloak+heal upgrade.
2. That might have been the most dumb thing I've ever seen anybody type on any forum ever xD I don't even know where to begin to answer that and I also have absolutely no clue what it has to do with the subject. Shield upgrades only affects half of the protoss' armor, you're paying for half an armor upgrade yet you have to pay double the price, how the f*** did you manage to see shield upgrades in any way as an advantage? :D I mean, do you follow pro games? Do you not notice how rarely shield upgrades are made at all? Complaining about shield upgrades is like me complaining "why can reapers jump up cliffs? :D and then has a speed upgrades? imbaaa!"
|
I honestly don't see how or why it is necessary to balance burrow according to the function of cloaked units and cloaking upgrades for the other two races. It doesn't make sense.
Even though all three of the races have cloaked units and upgrades, they function differently and have different pros and cons. Protoss cloak always come with the unit, terran units all require upgrades, and all zerg ground units benefit from burrow. However, protoss and terran units can attack while cloaked, and the mothership cloaks all units and buildings, but only banelings may attack while burrowed and infestors can only use ITs, and on top of that only infestors and roaches (with an upgrade) can move while burrowed.
You can't really balance this according to theory, it takes testing. You can't really just say that burrow is better, when it also has aspects that make it seem way worse than regular cloak. Are burrowed units tough to spot? Yes. Harder than other cloaked units? Definitely yes, but almost all burrowed units cant attack, and can get detected (of course), and are slower, or can't move at all. So what, burrow should cost more, most units shouldn't be able to move and they should be more visible while moving?
Also, I don't see how this is an issue in how the game is currently playing out. If a lot of good zergs were abusing landmines and burrowed infestor/burrowed roach harass consistently then I could see it as a problem, but that's not how the game is; some zergs do landmines sometimes, and some zergs do burrowed infestor harass sometimes. As far as I can tell, it's balanced and fair from beta 'til now. I dunno, there are way bigger issues - things that are fucking the game up - to be concerned about.
Coming from a Protoss player btw. :D
|
The problem with infestor burrow movement in my opinion is that it is another very powerful feature attached to what is already the best unit in the game with no burrow at all. I play terran, so here is my TvZ example:
A banshee without cloak will do what, kill 2-5 workers if you get it out very quickly; banshees without cloak are almost never used past the early midgame as they are extremely easy to defend against. Ghosts without cloak are also rarely used post snipe nerf. Have you ever tried to nuke harass or get close enough to EMP/snipe a group of infestors without cloak? I bet it didn't work out so well. What else are ghosts really good at, we ask? Not a whole lot.
1) Having detection makes all terran (protoss to, but thats for a different post) cloaked units worth almost nothing. You will never see mass banshee, and except for extreme (30+ min) late game you will not see mass ghost (still very rare). 2) The cost of not having detection is the loss of workers at a base. A base will very rarely die to ghosts or banshees.
On the other hand, if infestors don't have burrow, they are still amazing. They do huge AOE damage and lock all (ground and air) units in place at a very long range, can individually create a small army that gets all upgrades and attacks both ground and air for 0 supply, and can take control of an opponent's unit at long range and control it for awhile. Now you put on top of that an ability that makes it require detection to hit and almost impossible to see even when moving......well, you got a very good unit. Why not mass them? They fill EVERY role. You can have some infestors as your main army to fungel, some with your main army to throw down an army of infested terrans. Then, since you are already building a ton of infestors anyway (something you won't be doing with banshees or ghosts), you can have some being invisible moving around the map into your opponents bases for very effective harrass, and then some back at home defending drops and counter harass. Why would you want anything else?
1) While detected, infestors are still the best unit in the game 2) The cost of not having detection is the workers of a base, plus the base itself is often destroyed.
|
Oh my go. The Nerf-Infestor-Threads becom really ridiculous. Blizzard said what they will do.
|
On November 11 2012 13:15 zasg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 12:56 Kettchup wrote: I like the difficulty to see burrow movement. It rewards players who prepare well. Have a wall-off? Can't get through. Have a well placed turret/cannon? Spotted as you come in. A reason to use a raven? Always a good thing. Hunting down burrowed infesters that make it through is taxing for the player and enjoyable to the viewer, getting more play like this and less deathball is what SC2 should strive for.
I'm also fine with cloak being easier to see. Cloak is far more often used to get an early insta-win with fast DTs or fast banshees. I agree, the reason people get destroyed by burrowed movement is not that it is hard to see but because they do not prepare. For example if I do not think or prepare for DT's in ZvT and 6 dt's turn up with 0 detection I get destroyed. I have often wondered why Terran's do not throw down a turret at the main entrances to their bases? And likewise why a Protoss doesn't throw down a cannon at the entrances. It isn't like the infestors turn up when Protoss doesn't have a forge and Terran doesn't have a engineering bay. Rather then ask why is it hard to see, I think we should ask, why do people not prepare? Z
You are compairing burrowed infestors to DT and Banshees but the investment is not the same at all. Banshees are made for the purpose of harass, if you dont do damage with them they are wasted. DTs are a big investment aswell but atleast you can make them into archons, still a big blow if you cant do any damage with them. You are going to make infestors anyway, they are the core zerg unit and burrow is just a bonus on top of all the utilities the infestor has. You will want burrow even if you cant get in to the base and harass, so its really no investment lost either way. Thats the difference.
|
|
|
|