Update: KeSPA source confirms there WILL be English commentary for opening day matches. No word on specific casters.
Live Streaming (Korean): Naver, TVing, Youtube (www.youtube.com/esportstv) Live Streaming (English): Twitch.tv (www.twitch.tv/sc2proleague) Source: KeSPA
KeSPA's official response to misinformation posted on TeamLiquid
The association seeks to clear up some confusion regarding the international broadcast of the Proleague caused by misinformation from OnGameNet's English caster.
Originally, the Proleague's English, international broadcast service was to be handled by OnGameNet and IEG, Sat/Sun and Mon/Tue respectively (with partial financial support for the English broadcast provided by the association). Additionally, for the sake of rebuilding esports and setting a foundation for continued growth, KeSPA, IEG, and OnGameNet were in talks to create a three party consortium in 2012, the year when international broadcasts began. By bundling the Starleague and Proleague, the goal was to prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services.
However, because of minor differences in stances between the three parties, it has been agreed to slightly extend the period of negotiations. Until a final agreement has been reached, OnGameNet's stance is that it will not broadcast in English during the weekend games of Proleague, and will only provide a clean feed of Proleague to IEG, the delivery agency.
The association and IEG are urgently putting together the resources for an English broadcast, and are doing their best to not only reach a satisfactory agreement with OnGameNet, but also ensure and unhindered broadcast.
OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information.
All games of the The SK Planet StarCraft II Proleague 2012-13 season will be viewable on Twitch.TV (URL: en.twitch.tv/sc2proleague) beginning with opening day on December 8th. Negotiations are underway so that Live Streams and VODs will be viewable through youtube starting in the first half of 2013.
온게임넷 영어해설자의 왜곡된 정보와 인터뷰로 “프로리그”의 해외서비스 및 시청방법에 대해 혼선이 생기어 이에 대한 협회의 입장을 정리하고자 합니다.
당초 “프로리그”의 해외서비스는 온게임넷, IEG 양 방송사가 각각 주말경기, 평일(월, 화)경기에 대해 영어 중계를 포함하여 제작을 담당(영어중계 제작비용 일부 협회 지원)하게 되어 있었습니다.
그리고, 최근 침체된 e스포츠의 재건 및 지속적인 성장 발판 마련을 위해 협회, I.E.G, 온게임넷3사는 사실상 해외서비스 원년인 2012년, 성공적인 세계시장 공략을 위해 스타리그, 프로리그를 하나로 묶어 해외시장에서 양 리그간의 제살 깎아 먹기 경쟁을 방지하고 다양한 팩키지를 구성, 시너지 창출로 해외서비스의 조기 안정화와 빠른 정착을 목표로 3자 컨소시엄을 구성하는 제휴방안에 대하여 협의 중에 있었습니다.
그러나, 3자의 근소한 입장차이로 인해 협의 기한을 좀 더 연장하기로 3사가 합의하였으며, 이에따라 온게임넷에서는 최종합의가 이루어지기 전까지 프로리그 주말경기에 대한 영어중계 제작을 하지 않으며 해외서비스를 위해 “프로리그” 유통 대행사인 I.E.G에 클린피드만을 제공하겠다는 입장을 밝힌 것입니다. 이에 협회와 IEG에서는 급히 영어중계를 위한 Resource를 확보 중에 있으며, 온게임넷과의 원만한 합의 도출은 물론, 차질 없이 방송될 수 있도록 최선을 다하고 있습니다.
글을 쓴 온게임넷 해설자 DOA씨는 사실확인 결과 특정 일방에서 잘못된 정보만으로 왜곡되어 오해의 소지가 있는 글을 쓴 것에 대해 사과하고 이를 정정 하겠다고 밝혔으며 협회는 전혀 사실과 다른 내용으로 왜곡된 정보를 제공하여 근거 없는 유언비어 유포에 단호히 대응하고 즉각적으로 입장을 표명할 계획입니다.
“SK플래닛 스타크래프트2 프로리그 2012-13시즌”은 “트위치”에서 12월 8일 개막경기부터 전 경기 시청할 수 있으며 2013년 상반기부터는 유튜브를 통해서도 LIVE, VOD 시청이 가능하도록 협의하고 있습니다.
"OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
In light of this news, DoA was way too quick to write up that dooms-day post. He probably should have waited it out a bit more before drawing drastic conclusions.
Am I the only one still confused? Lol. I thought it's always been said that OGN would take the weekend matches and SPOTV/IEG would take the weekday ones.
For a second there I thought the 'PL on Twitch' in the title meant they'd be broadcasting in Polish... but I quickly realized that it stood for ProLeague.... alas a man can dream.
On a side note, thank goodness that we may at least see English casts in the future!
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
On December 07 2012 17:26 mrRoflpwn wrote: Are re-streams allowed for english dubbing?
The main question is will TL allow english streams to be on the streams list. People will do english restreams no matter what, but now that TL have a vested interest in being on the good side of Kespa, it might determine whether they let streams link themselves to the event on TL.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
He specifically did NOT tell people to boycott. Stop spreading misinformation.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
Technically he said " i cannot tell you what to do but i am doing this" not even suggesting you shouldn't because we all love the game.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
I don't know if it's that simple, but yeah - I'm still suspicious regarding Kespa.
Let's not blame DoA for this right now - it's still possible that Kespa is trying to cover up for whatever they DID tell OGN in their meeting earlier today. Not that I know for sure what's really going on here (obviously) - but I at least believe that DoA told us what he was hearing.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
Stop pulling facts out of your ass, he said no such thing.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
your reading skills are not very good, he never said that
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
Proove that he said that. Now.
build a time machine and i will
He never told anyone to boycott. If anything, he told everyone NOT to boycott it. Doa is not that stupid.
Ugh, Kespa sounds like that Iraqi minister of information that made these crazy propaganda broadcasts during the US invasion 10 years ago.
In the end, for all their talking and bitching at DoA, they never once said that there will be an English stream for the opening round of the PL. Nor any timeline as to when they may get their English stream up.
This is just incredibly awesome, i cant help it but feel a little overwhelmed with so many GREAT news this week. THIS IS GREAT NEWS GUYS. Such an awesome Xmas gift. THANK YOU e-SPORTS.
DoA had already announced to the community that he would be casting games. So I think he was right to let us know why, from his perspective, that wouldn't be happening. But even if he was just a drama queen, I hope Kespa will learn a lesson from this. If you don't provide clear information to the community, then you are very vulnerable to rumours and misinformation being spread. A commitment to providing an english stream, and the location of the stream URL, should have been announced by Kespa a week ago.
On December 07 2012 17:34 munchmunch wrote: DoA had already announced to the community that he would be casting games. So I think he was right to let us know why, from his perspective, that wouldn't be happening. But even if he was just a drama queen, I hope Kespa will learn a lesson from this. If you don't provide clear information to the community, then you are very vulnerable to rumours and misinformation being spread. A commitment to providing an english stream, and the location of the stream URL, should have been announced by Kespa a week ago.
Atleast i hope DoA will learn a lesson from his. if you don't have all the information u stfu and don't spread rumours.
Let's be realistic, guys. The people that would boycott Proleague because of this represent a very very small percentage of the viewing population, so that really shouldn't be an issue. However, there will be people that will certainly not watch the games without an English commentary, but I don't see that as boycotting, simply prioritizing their viewing by watching other events.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Update: KeSPA source confirms there WILL be English commentary for opening day matches.
Source: KeSPA
<snip> KeSPA's official response to misinformation posted on TeamLiquid Until a final agreement has been reached, OnGameNet's stance is that it will not broadcast in English during the weekend games of Proleague, and will only provide a clean feed of Proleague to IEG, the delivery agency. <snip>
So basically, OGN wont be doing english production, but will feed IEG with video (without korean commentary) so IEG can do live English commentary on top of it. The english casters just wont be physically in the TV studio with the crowd and players.
People, don't suddenly start attacking DoA just because KeSPA says he's wrong. The real truth is almost certainly somewhere between the two statements, and it seems pretty obvious at this point that there's some tension between KeSPA and OGN.
On December 07 2012 17:25 Soulrivers wrote: In light of this news, DoA was way too quick to write up that dooms-day post. He probably should have waited it out a bit more before drawing drastic conclusions.
I'm sure I could benefit from more information, as we all could, but here is the thing. People want to see this more than any other thing in SC2. It's huge. EG-TL in proleague? It's begging an english commentary. They're shooting their own feet and losing a big audience.
Reminds of the Los Angeles international airport (LAX) workers union protesting on thanksgiving holidays. Who is really going to sympathize with that, when it causes delays and cancellations, only for some employee benefits that can be worked out at a later time.
Or the musician's union of Los Angeles who stubbornly tossing away studio gigs for every video game produced in this town because of an absolute refusal to reconsider back-end deals with video game companies (union doesn't compromise and thus starves and chokes itself).
It's just stubbornness. We don't care about care about perfect contracts and agreements. We just want to see a damn English stream with high level casting. And if we as an audience matter, then go out of the way to make a USEABLE agreement FOR NOW and fix it in the future.
PRACTICALITY is most important. If you stall things out forever, you will simply never accomplish anything and just waste a lot of money, like the U.S. government. I hope someone steps up to the plate and accommodates what will be a substantial audience.
EDIT: Because of the update, it appears someone stepped up to the plate. Hopefully it is more than just opening day.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Update: KeSPA source confirms there WILL be English commentary for opening day matches.
Source: KeSPA
<snip> KeSPA's official response to misinformation posted on TeamLiquid Until a final agreement has been reached, OnGameNet's stance is that it will not broadcast in English during the weekend games of Proleague, and will only provide a clean feed of Proleague to IEG, the delivery agency. <snip>
So basically, OGN wont be doing english production, but will feed IEG with video (without korean commentary) so IEG can do live English commentary on top of it. The english casters just wont be physically in the TV studio with the crowd and players.
Am i understanding this correctly?
It seems that is an option, but certainly nothing is guaranteed as of now. This response by KeSPA basically seems like a rebuke of Doa's previous announcement.
On December 07 2012 17:34 munchmunch wrote: DoA had already announced to the community that he would be casting games. So I think he was right to let us know why, from his perspective, that wouldn't be happening. But even if he was just a drama queen, I hope Kespa will learn a lesson from this. If you don't provide clear information to the community, then you are very vulnerable to rumours and misinformation being spread. A commitment to providing an english stream, and the location of the stream URL, should have been announced by Kespa a week ago.
Atleast i hope DoA will learn a lesson from his. if you don't have all the information u stfu and don't spread rumours.
The fact that his post, accurate or not, was credible speaks volumes about the credibility and attitude of KeSPA with regards to foreign fans. Can you imagine Tasteless accusing GOM of dumping English casts and it getting any traction at all? Of course not, because GOM is open and reaches out to foreign fans, and thus has their trust and does well by them.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Update: KeSPA source confirms there WILL be English commentary for opening day matches.
Source: KeSPA
KeSPA's official response to misinformation posted on TeamLiquid Until a final agreement has been reached, OnGameNet's stance is that it will not broadcast in English during the weekend games of Proleague, and will only provide a clean feed of Proleague to IEG, the delivery agency.
So basically, OGN wont be doing english production, but will feed IEG with video (without korean commentary) so IEG can do live English commentary on top of it. The english casters just wont be physically in the TV studio with the crowd and players.
I'm not sure what in this release contradicts what DoA said? All he said was that negotiations between Kespa and OGN were going poorly, and as a result, OGN would not be delivering an English language cast of the opening matches of proleage.
This Kespa statement doesn't conflict with that at all... OGN is still handling production for their matches and providing a feed of that to IEG, whom Kespa is using to provide their own English language broadcast that they are attempting to put together. Sounds like exactly what DoA claimed?
On December 07 2012 17:34 munchmunch wrote: DoA had already announced to the community that he would be casting games. So I think he was right to let us know why, from his perspective, that wouldn't be happening. But even if he was just a drama queen, I hope Kespa will learn a lesson from this. If you don't provide clear information to the community, then you are very vulnerable to rumours and misinformation being spread. A commitment to providing an english stream, and the location of the stream URL, should have been announced by Kespa a week ago.
Atleast i hope DoA will learn a lesson from his. if you don't have all the information u stfu and don't spread rumours.
Even if he had just said what he knew ("Sorry guys, I was premature, I won't be casting games, negotiations are ongoing"), the rumours and speculation would have spread anyway. In fact, that is pretty much all he said... he just included his own personal disappointment in his writeup.
On December 07 2012 17:34 munchmunch wrote: DoA had already announced to the community that he would be casting games. So I think he was right to let us know why, from his perspective, that wouldn't be happening. But even if he was just a drama queen, I hope Kespa will learn a lesson from this. If you don't provide clear information to the community, then you are very vulnerable to rumours and misinformation being spread. A commitment to providing an english stream, and the location of the stream URL, should have been announced by Kespa a week ago.
Atleast i hope DoA will learn a lesson from his. if you don't have all the information u stfu and don't spread rumours.
The fact that his post, accurate or not, was credible speaks volumes about the credibility and attitude of KeSPA with regards to foreign fans. Can you imagine Tasteless accusing GOM of dumping English casts and it getting any traction at all? Of course not, because GOM is open and reaches out to foreign fans, and thus has their trust and does well by them.
Ofcourse. cause GOM needs foreigners. or they go doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooown.
so the only thing they are saying is that they are "planning an englisch broadcast" - not one word about when or if it will actually happen.. oh, and they insult Doa.. f****** arrogant pricks
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
your reading skills are not very good, he never said that
well... it's pretty easy to read between the lines that he did say that, albeit in a passive-aggressive way.
On December 07 2012 17:34 munchmunch wrote: DoA had already announced to the community that he would be casting games. So I think he was right to let us know why, from his perspective, that wouldn't be happening. But even if he was just a drama queen, I hope Kespa will learn a lesson from this. If you don't provide clear information to the community, then you are very vulnerable to rumours and misinformation being spread. A commitment to providing an english stream, and the location of the stream URL, should have been announced by Kespa a week ago.
Atleast i hope DoA will learn a lesson from his. if you don't have all the information u stfu and don't spread rumours.
He very well MAY have had all the information (from OGN's point of view, as of the time of that meeting). At the very least, the main gist of his post is still true. OGN will NOT be providing English commentary + stream.
Some people may have taken his thread to mean that there wouldn't be any English cast at all for Proleague, but he did not actually say that. In fact, his title clearly said "No English OGN broadcast for SK Planet Proleague", but it's understandable that many could have just assumed that meant no English broadcast, period.
But at the moment, that was all we were guaranteed, because Kespa has only NOW started to say something about English commentary + stream for Proleague.
Anyways, I'm still pretty sketched out by Kespa. Their reputation + this whole kerfuffle suggests to me that we should be wary that they're up to their "old ways". Just my gut/emotional response, anyways
On December 07 2012 17:25 Soulrivers wrote: In light of this news, DoA was way too quick to write up that dooms-day post. He probably should have waited it out a bit more before drawing drastic conclusions.
I don't fault DoA for posting what he did. Wait? Until when? It's not like Proleague's start is in a week or something, it's tomorrow. For stuff like this to still be totally up in the air at this juncture with such little information available is horribly unprofessional. If anything, we finally got something concrete due to the controversy and outrage that topic caused.
On December 07 2012 17:41 Pandemona wrote: Haha! DoA getting burned XD
Glad KESPA didn't come off to badly on this though, and are working to deliver to us what we want! EG-TL Fighting
Are you sure? From what it looks like, OGN was slated to provide the English commentary all along, and as of about 48 hours before the first match, Kespa looks to have completely altered the terms of their understanding because it wants to go with its own "IEG" broadcasting group solution.
It reminds me Darth Vader's comment to Lando Calrissian in The Empire Strikes Back: "I am altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it further."
(unnecessarily dramatic, but when a great Star Wars reference comes to mind, you've gotta use it!)
What would OGN hope to gain for forcing KeSPA to abandon their (original) english casting O_o
Does OGN suddenly hate them and want them to fail or something?
Also yeah, KeSPA's response to DoA made me laugh. Even if he was pretty stupid doing it, and unprofessional, they underestimate the community a bit on that one.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
your reading skills are not very good, he never said that
well... it's pretty easy to read between the lines that he did say that, albeit in a passive-aggressive way.
Are you shitting me? You "read between the lines that he did say that"? And you don't even provide a source of these allegations?
OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information.
Can anyone explain what this is referring to? Nothing they have in their release contradicts what he said as far as I can tell, they just seem to be mad that he aired dirty laundry from private negotiations. You can't blame him though, he's the one suffering from prolonged negotiations that cause him to be out of a casting gig... especially if the reason for the problems is as he says (KeSPA planted third caster and them trying to set up their own English production to simulcast separate from OGN's).
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
your reading skills are not very good, he never said that
well... it's pretty easy to read between the lines that he did say that, albeit in a passive-aggressive way.
Are you shitting me? You "read between the lines that he did say that"? And you don't even provide a source of these allegations?
Thank goodness! Glad to hear that there will be some sort of English broadcast for opening day. Its a big milestolne in both Starcraft and E-sports history and not having a cast in English would have severely hampered the excitement and the viewership.
Poor DoA, this is why employees can never discuss things what board members did. You never know what board members did behind the doors. And among board members, employees are always sacrificable.
On December 07 2012 17:41 Pandemona wrote: Haha! DoA getting burned XD
Glad KESPA didn't come off to badly on this though, and are working to deliver to us what we want! EG-TL Fighting
This post shows why this issue is just silly. What are we here to cheer about? <sarcasm>Kespa versus DoA? Hey, did you guys see that Gom versus MLG last week? MLG Lee is the new Esports business bonjwa!</sarcasm>
It's fine to tell companies what we want, give casters feedback, etc. But let's not pick sides until the games actually start.
On December 07 2012 17:26 mrRoflpwn wrote: Are re-streams allowed for english dubbing?
The main question is will TL allow english streams to be on the streams list. People will do english restreams no matter what, but now that TL have a vested interest in being on the good side of Kespa, it might determine whether they let streams link themselves to the event on TL.
We can always pull out the card that this is TL not TLPro that plays in ProLeague
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
your reading skills are not very good, he never said that
well... it's pretty easy to read between the lines that he did say that, albeit in a passive-aggressive way.
Are you shitting me? You "read between the lines that he did say that"? And you don't even provide a source of these allegations?
source got edited away.
Making it very easy for people to pull "facts" out of their asses.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Update: KeSPA source confirms there WILL be English commentary for opening day matches. No word on specific casters.
Hmmm... isn't it curious that, apparently, DoA and another OGN caster were READY to hit the ground running with an English cast, and less than 24 hours before the first match Kespa is suddenly going to try and provide their own English cast with no word on who will be casting?
Am I crazy, or does this seem to suggest even more that Kespa is trying to shut the OGN brand out from the English streaming market for Proleague?
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
your reading skills are not very good, he never said that
well... it's pretty easy to read between the lines that he did say that, albeit in a passive-aggressive way.
Are you shitting me? You "read between the lines that he did say that"? And you don't even provide a source of these allegations?
He very specifically said that he was not advocating a boycott, which could be interpreted in a sort of "officially I cannot advocate a boycott, so I advise you to NOT do it, but if you do it would force Kespa to rethink this and change everything for the better, wink wink nudge nudge" sort of thing.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
your reading skills are not very good, he never said that
well... it's pretty easy to read between the lines that he did say that, albeit in a passive-aggressive way.
Are you shitting me? You "read between the lines that he did say that"? And you don't even provide a source of these allegations?
He very specifically said that he was not advocating a boycott, which could be interpreted in a sort of "officially I cannot advocate a boycott, so I advise you to NOT do it, but if you do it would force Kespa to rethink this and change everything for the better, wink wink nudge nudge" sort of thing.
Yes, I read that too, that's not something a caster should say without consent from his employer.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Update: KeSPA source confirms there WILL be English commentary for opening day matches. No word on specific casters.
Hmmm... isn't it curious that, apparently, DoA and another OGN caster were READY to hit the ground running with an English cast, and less than 24 hours before the first match Kespa is suddenly going to try and provide their own English cast with no word on who will be casting?
Am I crazy, or does this seem to suggest even more that Kespa is trying to shut the OGN brand out from the English streaming market for Proleague?
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
your reading skills are not very good, he never said that
well... it's pretty easy to read between the lines that he did say that, albeit in a passive-aggressive way.
Are you shitting me? You "read between the lines that he did say that"? And you don't even provide a source of these allegations?
He very specifically said that he was not advocating a boycott, which could be interpreted in a sort of "officially I cannot advocate a boycott, so I advise you to NOT do it, but if you do it would force Kespa to rethink this and change everything for the better, wink wink nudge nudge" sort of thing.
This is almost literally the definition of a conspiracy theory, lol. You don't get to assume someone has malicious intent because you think they should in their situation. DoA's a standup guy, and was making posts/tweets long afterwards trying to get and give more information to people about how to watch the opening day under any circumstances available.
I think it's unbelievable the KeSPA is talking DOA in this way.They didn't make ANY statement about english casting 48h before the show. We still know NOTHING. They brought this down on themselves.
I think that DOA actually deserves credits to have the balls of saying such "secret" information out loud and kicking the organizations to make it happen. Unprofessional from KeSPA and from DOA. ( It still is unprofessional to reveal such information but at least it gets the job done.)
Professionalism means taking care of everything related to your job. For streaming major events, it includes information about the stream.
On December 07 2012 17:56 hoburame wrote: I think it's unbelievable the KeSPA is talking DOA in this way.They didn't make ANY statement about english casting 48h before the show. We still know NOTHING. They brought this down on themselves.
I think that DOA actually deserves credits to have the balls of saying such "secret" information out loud and kicking the organizations to make it happen. Unprofessional from KeSPA and from DOA. ( It still is unprofessional to reveal such information but at least it gets the job done.)
Professionalism means taking care of everything related to your job. For streaming major events, it includes information about the stream.
Last time I checked, DoA is not on board of directors of OGN, he doesn't know shit. Even if he knows a thing or two from senior employees, he shouldn't publicly say anything at his position.
Poor DoA, I hope everything works out and they manage to get a live english stream going. If they have a delayed english stream I'll just be watching in korean, where is the hype when it's already happened?
Still weird that there's no word on specific casters for the English stream less than 24 hours before the stream goes live, but I guess they know what they're doing.
If there aren't English casters, or something falls through for the English speaking audience, be sure to watch oOOoOphidian's commentary on his stream! I can guarantee that he'll be ready to pick it up in case the English speaking crowd is left hanging
With this statement, the chance of Doa ever casting a KeSPA game takes a dive. Its a shame, since the guy went to Korea pretty much to cast the proleague.
Was very unprofessional by DoA. Still, glad that KeSPA is adamant enough about getting an English cast going to have IEG take over for the weekend matches, despite the problems in negotiations with OGN, regardless which side is being unreasonable.
On December 07 2012 17:19 opterown wrote: wow poor doa
Well DoA was probably fed wrong information. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Unless this shitstorm sparked this language.
We're all assuming this was true prior to the uproar. Just blaming doa is rather myopic.
You would think they would have some backup for the english cast in mind. This is a professional organization right? They were probably hardballing OGN/wanted to do their own thing then mucked it up. Saw the uproar and threw the young foreign cater under the bus. Or Doa could have misled us. But both scenarios are equally plausible.
Business is business, negotiation is hard. One second, they are best buddy forever, the other they are arch enemy. People who is not an insider should just stay out of the way, let them fight out the battle themselves.
On December 06 2012 21:52 DoA wrote: I just got hit with some pretty hard to take news. OnGameNet will not be broadcasting the SK Planet Proleague this season in English. As that sinks in, let me elaborate on exactly why this is and where we're at now.
Basically for a while now KeSPA has been preparing their own broadcasting platform (IEG, which is owned by KeSPA) to presumably run events from. KeSPA's had a long history of doing their best to control everything that goes on in Korean esports so it's not shocking that they'd want to get into actually running the broadcasts as well. Proleague in fact is a result of KeSPA threatening to pull their players from both OGN and MBC's individual leagues if they didn't give up their respective team leagues and broadcast Proleague instead.
This season KeSPA decided to run their own Proleague broadcast initially on weekdays, while OGN ran the weekend broadcast. As far as I know about a week ago KeSPA approached OGN and told them that they'd be running their own stream simultaneously with OGN's on weekends as well. They'd also be sending a commentator they had picked themselves to tri-cast with Monte Cristo and I. Naturally OGN was upset about this and Monte and I were a bit reluctant to tri-cast with someone we'd never worked with before. OGN went back to have talks yesterday and today with KeSPA and things did not go well. KeSPA has also been approaching english casters about the job, but so far none have accepted that I'm aware of. Not surprising.
As of right now OGN will not be involved with Proleague at any level for an English broadcast as far as I'm aware. All the preparation by the staff here over the last few months is now for nothing. Needless to say I'm crushed. I'm enjoying LoL, but I came back to Korea to cast Starcraft 2. We've still got OSL (which OGN owns), but SC2 team leagues are basically my favorite thing in the entire world and now that's gone.
So what do we get as fans of Proleague now? I still want to see these matches as much as anyone, but I'm frankly tired of KeSPA's lame ploys to try to keep control over something they never should have been in control if in the first place. For me it certainly sours the mood for what will be an epic first match between KT and EG.TL. I don't have any information about EIG's streams or when the broadcasts will be. If I find out I'll tell people. As hard as all this is to take, I want you guys to be able to watch if you want to.
Is there a possibility things might change? Possibly. If KeSPA feels enough pressure they might bend. I'm certainly going to do everything I can. What I'm not going to do is tell you to boycott Proleague. That's your choice and I don't have any business telling you not to watch a game and players that you love because of idiotic corporate politics that you aren't a part of and frankly don't deserve to be hurt by. I feel it's important people know what's going on behind the scenes sometimes, but it's best to focus on the game.
That's all I've got for now. If I get any updates I'll pass them on via my twitter. (@ggdoa)
Apparently MLG might be involved in some way with an English broadcast per MLG Lee's Twitter? If that's the case then I wish them the best of luck and a great season.
On December 07 2012 18:17 Zealos wrote: Is it just me or does Kespa seem more reasonable now? At least they seem to be trying to communicate with the foreigner community...
Well they have to respond when someone who the community thinks knows the whole situation posts a damning declaration on the evil deeds of said organization.
How long before an ‘official OGN executive source’ prints their (completely polar) version of events to all this -_-. Fucking children throwing their toys out of the pram. A professional organisation does everything they can to keep this petty bullshit out of the publics eye, yet Kespa (and other orgs.) seem to actually enjoy catapulting large hunks of shit onto the worlds largest fan. Do they think they can score points with the public by doing that or do they simply not care? At this stage it’s probably worth mentioning that this is just my personally opinion based on many past events, and with regards to Kespa I’m not just referring to this one single event.
Also, to all the guys calling for DoA to be fired I’d like to pass this message onto you with the same level of intelligence and tact which you’re using to construct your point of views; go eat a bag of dicks you pathetic mealworms
Doa falling on his sword to save OGN and Kespa from losing too much face. I don't doubt that KESPA actually thought they could throw out the English broadcast and be totally fine, then realized that they pissed off literally 90% of their English base. So, who better to place the blame on? Have DoA "admit" he was wrong, or have KESPA admit they were wrong to cut OGN out of the English broadcast and create some Frankenstein's monster 12+ hour delayed MLG broadcast?
DoA had to learn that he can't just post shit without his company okaying it first, and hopefully KESPA has realized that no English broadcast just cements the idea that KESPA couldn't care less about us. They never have, and they never will.
On December 06 2012 21:52 DoA wrote: I just got hit with some pretty hard to take news. OnGameNet will not be broadcasting the SK Planet Proleague this season in English. As that sinks in, let me elaborate on exactly why this is and where we're at now.
Basically for a while now KeSPA has been preparing their own broadcasting platform (IEG, which is owned by KeSPA) to presumably run events from. KeSPA's had a long history of doing their best to control everything that goes on in Korean esports so it's not shocking that they'd want to get into actually running the broadcasts as well. Proleague in fact is a result of KeSPA threatening to pull their players from both OGN and MBC's individual leagues if they didn't give up their respective team leagues and broadcast Proleague instead.
This season KeSPA decided to run their own Proleague broadcast initially on weekdays, while OGN ran the weekend broadcast. As far as I know about a week ago KeSPA approached OGN and told them that they'd be running their own stream simultaneously with OGN's on weekends as well. They'd also be sending a commentator they had picked themselves to tri-cast with Monte Cristo and I. Naturally OGN was upset about this and Monte and I were a bit reluctant to tri-cast with someone we'd never worked with before. OGN went back to have talks yesterday and today with KeSPA and things did not go well. KeSPA has also been approaching english casters about the job, but so far none have accepted that I'm aware of. Not surprising.
As of right now OGN will not be involved with Proleague at any level for an English broadcast as far as I'm aware. All the preparation by the staff here over the last few months is now for nothing. Needless to say I'm crushed. I'm enjoying LoL, but I came back to Korea to cast Starcraft 2. We've still got OSL (which OGN owns), but SC2 team leagues are basically my favorite thing in the entire world and now that's gone.
So what do we get as fans of Proleague now? I still want to see these matches as much as anyone, but I'm frankly tired of KeSPA's lame ploys to try to keep control over something they never should have been in control if in the first place. For me it certainly sours the mood for what will be an epic first match between KT and EG.TL. I don't have any information about EIG's streams or when the broadcasts will be. If I find out I'll tell people. As hard as all this is to take, I want you guys to be able to watch if you want to.
Is there a possibility things might change? Possibly. If KeSPA feels enough pressure they might bend. I'm certainly going to do everything I can. What I'm not going to do is tell you to boycott Proleague. That's your choice and I don't have any business telling you not to watch a game and players that you love because of idiotic corporate politics that you aren't a part of and frankly don't deserve to be hurt by. I feel it's important people know what's going on behind the scenes sometimes, but it's best to focus on the game.
That's all I've got for now. If I get any updates I'll pass them on via my twitter. (@ggdoa)
Apparently MLG might be involved in some way with an English broadcast per MLG Lee's Twitter? If that's the case then I wish them the best of luck and a great season.
Well, after analyzing his post he technically did not lie.
1.) He specifically stated that OGN will not involve in English broadcast until further update. This is true because in KesPA's statement, OGN will not do English broadcast on the weekend match (doubt that they will do the weekdays match too since they are broadcasted from SPOTV). So he did not lie about that.
2.) He did not say that there will be no English broadcast. He said that he did not know about the information of the EIG's stream. He said that he will update if he found something more, which KesPA responds first.
3.) He did not tell anyone to boycott Proleague. He even offer to find a way that people can watch it.
Only things that I feel he did unprofessionally was mixing his emotions and opinions with an annoucement. But the rest he did not lie to us.
On December 06 2012 21:52 DoA wrote: I just got hit with some pretty hard to take news. OnGameNet will not be broadcasting the SK Planet Proleague this season in English. As that sinks in, let me elaborate on exactly why this is and where we're at now.
Basically for a while now KeSPA has been preparing their own broadcasting platform (IEG, which is owned by KeSPA) to presumably run events from. KeSPA's had a long history of doing their best to control everything that goes on in Korean esports so it's not shocking that they'd want to get into actually running the broadcasts as well. Proleague in fact is a result of KeSPA threatening to pull their players from both OGN and MBC's individual leagues if they didn't give up their respective team leagues and broadcast Proleague instead.
This season KeSPA decided to run their own Proleague broadcast initially on weekdays, while OGN ran the weekend broadcast. As far as I know about a week ago KeSPA approached OGN and told them that they'd be running their own stream simultaneously with OGN's on weekends as well. They'd also be sending a commentator they had picked themselves to tri-cast with Monte Cristo and I. Naturally OGN was upset about this and Monte and I were a bit reluctant to tri-cast with someone we'd never worked with before. OGN went back to have talks yesterday and today with KeSPA and things did not go well. KeSPA has also been approaching english casters about the job, but so far none have accepted that I'm aware of. Not surprising.
As of right now OGN will not be involved with Proleague at any level for an English broadcast as far as I'm aware. All the preparation by the staff here over the last few months is now for nothing. Needless to say I'm crushed. I'm enjoying LoL, but I came back to Korea to cast Starcraft 2. We've still got OSL (which OGN owns), but SC2 team leagues are basically my favorite thing in the entire world and now that's gone.
So what do we get as fans of Proleague now? I still want to see these matches as much as anyone, but I'm frankly tired of KeSPA's lame ploys to try to keep control over something they never should have been in control if in the first place. For me it certainly sours the mood for what will be an epic first match between KT and EG.TL. I don't have any information about EIG's streams or when the broadcasts will be. If I find out I'll tell people. As hard as all this is to take, I want you guys to be able to watch if you want to.
Is there a possibility things might change? Possibly. If KeSPA feels enough pressure they might bend. I'm certainly going to do everything I can. What I'm not going to do is tell you to boycott Proleague. That's your choice and I don't have any business telling you not to watch a game and players that you love because of idiotic corporate politics that you aren't a part of and frankly don't deserve to be hurt by. I feel it's important people know what's going on behind the scenes sometimes, but it's best to focus on the game.
That's all I've got for now. If I get any updates I'll pass them on via my twitter. (@ggdoa)
Apparently MLG might be involved in some way with an English broadcast per MLG Lee's Twitter? If that's the case then I wish them the best of luck and a great season.
3.) He did not tell anyone to boycott Proleague. He even offer to find a way that people can watch it.
"but I'm frankly tired of KeSPA's lame ploys to try to keep control over something they never should have been in control if in the first place."
Is there a possibility things might change? Possibly. If KeSPA feels enough pressure they might bend. I'm certainly going to do everything I can.
I'm not going to do is tell you to boycott Proleague. That's your choice and I don't have any business telling you not to watch a game and players that you love because of idiotic corporate politics that you aren't a part of and frankly don't deserve to be hurt by.
On December 07 2012 18:17 Zealos wrote: Is it just me or does Kespa seem more reasonable now? At least they seem to be trying to communicate with the foreigner community...
If you go back to page 6 and read "eviltomahawk" reposting of DoA's original post, basically you'll see that DoA's version hasn't been contradicted at all by Kespa.
Would KeSPa have offered an English stream for the first game, if DoA didn't post anything?
I personally think no (KeSPa had no interest in foreign audiences for a huge timespan) and therefore i want to thank DoA for putting himself in the line of fire.
On December 07 2012 18:25 Xulatis wrote: Before saying anything, lets ask one question:
Would KeSPa have offered an English stream for the first game, if DoA didn't post anything?
I personally think no (KeSPa had no interest in foreign audiences for a huge timespan) and therefore i want to thank DoA for putting himself in the line of fire.
uh...thought I remember seeing a post somewhere that Kespa were looking for english casters, If so then yes.
I don't really understand why some people are jumping the gun on DoA's post case. Whatever he said corresponds to what GaeSPA is trying to clear up. Quite frankly, if it wasn't for DoA, I don't even think GaeSPA wouldn't even bother to trying to clear things up.
'SK planet StarCraft II Pro League 12-13' will start from tomorrow. Weekdays through SPOTV weekend Ongamenet, relay, and Naver, the Korean online relay Leigh, YouTube, English relay via twitch.tv can be shown.
So DoA was still 100% correct in his post... All he said was that there would be no OGN English commentary and that still holds true with this statement from KeSPA.
Also you do not change terms and arrangements less then 48 hours prior to going live with something, that just reeks of unproffessionalism and shady bussiness strategies.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
He was mad because there isn't going to be an english broadcast and he wanted to let everyone know.
and tell people to boycott the league and stuff. nice guy.
your reading skills are not very good, he never said that
well... it's pretty easy to read between the lines that he did say that, albeit in a passive-aggressive way.
Are you shitting me? You "read between the lines that he did say that"? And you don't even provide a source of these allegations?
He very specifically said that he was not advocating a boycott, which could be interpreted in a sort of "officially I cannot advocate a boycott, so I advise you to NOT do it, but if you do it would force Kespa to rethink this and change everything for the better, wink wink nudge nudge" sort of thing.
This is almost literally the definition of a conspiracy theory, lol. You don't get to assume someone has malicious intent because you think they should in their situation. DoA's a standup guy, and was making posts/tweets long afterwards trying to get and give more information to people about how to watch the opening day under any circumstances available.
I'm not supporting that interpretation, just saying that it exists. I like DoA too and don't think that was his intention, but it could be read that way.
On December 07 2012 18:25 Xulatis wrote: Before saying anything, lets ask one question:
Would KeSPa have offered an English stream for the first game, if DoA didn't post anything?
I personally think no (KeSPa had no interest in foreign audiences for a huge timespan) and therefore i want to thank DoA for putting himself in the line of fire.
uh...thought I remember seeing a post somewhere that Kespa were looking for english casters, If so then yes.
I think ultimately whether or not DoA had made his KeSPA post wouldn't have affected the fact that we're not going to get an English stream any time soon. It's in the works, but nothing has changed besides the reason for the lack of an English stream.
Thanks for the information DoA. T_T I feel awful now knowing that you will be crucified for this as both companies in Korea will probably not take this lightly. ::sigh:: Hopefully you wont be punished/blamed but looking at Kespa's statement it looks unlikely. I was really hoping to see you cast ProLeague
It's crazy to think that less than 48 hours before the games are supposed to be cast, Kespa cuts OGN loose and decides to go the English cast alone. It seems unprofessional and highly suspect. Maybe its just my general suspicion for everything Kespa, but I feel like there is ALOT more to this then we know.
On December 07 2012 18:22 Taipoka wrote: And there goes Doa dreams of casting proleague. Even if IGN still in charge. In my opinion, as soon as the dust settle, bye bye Doa.
On December 06 2012 21:52 DoA wrote: I just got hit with some pretty hard to take news. OnGameNet will not be broadcasting the SK Planet Proleague this season in English. As that sinks in, let me elaborate on exactly why this is and where we're at now.
Basically for a while now KeSPA has been preparing their own broadcasting platform (IEG, which is owned by KeSPA) to presumably run events from. KeSPA's had a long history of doing their best to control everything that goes on in Korean esports so it's not shocking that they'd want to get into actually running the broadcasts as well. Proleague in fact is a result of KeSPA threatening to pull their players from both OGN and MBC's individual leagues if they didn't give up their respective team leagues and broadcast Proleague instead.
This season KeSPA decided to run their own Proleague broadcast initially on weekdays, while OGN ran the weekend broadcast. As far as I know about a week ago KeSPA approached OGN and told them that they'd be running their own stream simultaneously with OGN's on weekends as well. They'd also be sending a commentator they had picked themselves to tri-cast with Monte Cristo and I. Naturally OGN was upset about this and Monte and I were a bit reluctant to tri-cast with someone we'd never worked with before. OGN went back to have talks yesterday and today with KeSPA and things did not go well. KeSPA has also been approaching english casters about the job, but so far none have accepted that I'm aware of. Not surprising.
As of right now OGN will not be involved with Proleague at any level for an English broadcast as far as I'm aware. All the preparation by the staff here over the last few months is now for nothing. Needless to say I'm crushed. I'm enjoying LoL, but I came back to Korea to cast Starcraft 2. We've still got OSL (which OGN owns), but SC2 team leagues are basically my favorite thing in the entire world and now that's gone.
So what do we get as fans of Proleague now? I still want to see these matches as much as anyone, but I'm frankly tired of KeSPA's lame ploys to try to keep control over something they never should have been in control if in the first place. For me it certainly sours the mood for what will be an epic first match between KT and EG.TL. I don't have any information about EIG's streams or when the broadcasts will be. If I find out I'll tell people. As hard as all this is to take, I want you guys to be able to watch if you want to.
Is there a possibility things might change? Possibly. If KeSPA feels enough pressure they might bend. I'm certainly going to do everything I can. What I'm not going to do is tell you to boycott Proleague. That's your choice and I don't have any business telling you not to watch a game and players that you love because of idiotic corporate politics that you aren't a part of and frankly don't deserve to be hurt by. I feel it's important people know what's going on behind the scenes sometimes, but it's best to focus on the game.
That's all I've got for now. If I get any updates I'll pass them on via my twitter. (@ggdoa)
Apparently MLG might be involved in some way with an English broadcast per MLG Lee's Twitter? If that's the case then I wish them the best of luck and a great season.
3.) He did not tell anyone to boycott Proleague. He even offer to find a way that people can watch it.
Don you know something about reverse psychology?
Reverse psychology or not. He never said to anyone to boycott Proleague. And I don't think that he intended to try and make people boycott either. He just got some really bad news and wanted to tell the public.
On December 07 2012 18:25 Xulatis wrote: Before saying anything, lets ask one question:
Would KeSPa have offered an English stream for the first game, if DoA didn't post anything?
I personally think no (KeSPa had no interest in foreign audiences for a huge timespan) and therefore i want to thank DoA for putting himself in the line of fire.
That huge timespan doesn't mean much when they just pulled off the join of EG-TL to proleague. What else do they want if they don't have foreign interests. If they don't want any English casters, why do they even care what DoA said anyway.
This doesn't make a difference to me since I've always watched the Korean stream. Once you've reached a level in the game, you don't want to understand what the casters say. I always watched the Korean casters yell and have no clue what they're saying.
It still doesn't change the fact that DoA spent so much time on Korea only to get his goal taken from him 3 days before it starts. So i understand the disappointment and emotion in his initial posts. You have my support <3
Also the amount of business speak in that statement was more than obvious. Instead of saying negotiations broke down, they say we reached an impasse and need more time. Which is to say, we wait until the shitstorm comes and see who comes out worse for round two of negotiations.
And then comes blaming DoA for all the internet shitstorm from THEIR failed negotiations, which makes DoA a scapegoat for this giant messed up situation. While Doa gets punished for publishing probably correct inside information, which however clashes with the public image of KeSPA and what they wish to sell us as truth.
TL;DR: No love for corporate PR that throws passionate guys under the bus to uphold their image.
On December 07 2012 18:25 Xulatis wrote: Before saying anything, lets ask one question:
Would KeSPa have offered an English stream for the first game, if DoA didn't post anything?
I personally think no (KeSPa had no interest in foreign audiences for a huge timespan) and therefore i want to thank DoA for putting himself in the line of fire.
uh...thought I remember seeing a post somewhere that Kespa were looking for english casters, If so then yes.
well, wasn't that the cause of the issue? Kespa wanted to broadcast in english during weekends also, alongside OGN. OGN didnt agree. That was the issue, wasnt it?
On December 07 2012 18:25 Xulatis wrote: Before saying anything, lets ask one question:
Would KeSPa have offered an English stream for the first game, if DoA didn't post anything?
I personally think no (KeSPa had no interest in foreign audiences for a huge timespan) and therefore i want to thank DoA for putting himself in the line of fire.
uh...thought I remember seeing a post somewhere that Kespa were looking for english casters, If so then yes.
well, wasn't that the cause of the issue? Kespa wanted to broadcast in english during weekends also, alongside OGN. OGN didnt agree. That was the issue, wasnt it?
I based the post I made on the information I was given. I never apologized to Kespa nor do I feel I did anything wrong itn making the thread.. I spoke today with IEG and took the post down after finding that my information wasn't totally accurate. Nothing more.
IEG seems to be legit in wanting to provide a good broadcast for the global scene and it's a shame things are off to a rough start. I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
Doa didn't tell any specific lies, but instead told us a couple of important facts that we needed to know. There was some confusion concerning circumstances, but the base facts were straightforward. Simply, he broke the the news that OGN wouldn't be the ones providing a stream. This is the main point of what he's trying to say imo.
The fact that he simultaneously lambasted Kespa for probably putting him out of a job casting starcraft 2 is what triggered the "official" response. He was very opinionated and critical towards the party his employer is still in negotiation with and so has withdrawn his original statement.
But there is still a big issue that comes to mind as various posters mention the word "professionalism", why did it take a post from the potential caster for us to find out info concerning the english stream? Why had negotiations stalled at this point to leave questions concerning the stream? (yes, thankfully there will still be an english stream). Why was a nice guy like Doa brought over from america to be told that he wouldn't be able to cast proleague? (except he does still have the OSL, true)
(Edit: Doa sniped me; looks like he'll get some proleague yet)
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I based the post I made on the information I was given. I never apologized to Kespa nor do I feel I did anything wrong itn making the thread.. I spoke today with IEG and took the post down after finding that my information wasn't totally accurate. Nothing more.
IEG seems to be legit in wanting to provide a good broadcast for the global scene and it's a shame things are off to a rough start. I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I based the post I made on the information I was given. I never apologized to Kespa nor do I feel I did anything wrong itn making the thread.. I spoke today with IEG and took the post down after finding that my information wasn't totally accurate. Nothing more.
IEG seems to be legit in wanting to provide a good broadcast for the global scene and it's a shame things are off to a rough start. I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
Ideally, Kespa should hire Doa, and OGN should let him do it, besides his LoL obligations for OGN, since OGN will not be doing English casting for Proleague. From Doa's point of view, he just wants to cast PL, doesn't matter if that's by OGN or Kespa.
On December 07 2012 18:46 LiamBrady wrote: Kaelaris just said in Scarlett's stream chat he was offered to cast it but can't:
I should come clarify this actually, just stumbled across this after wanting to read DoA's post he just tweeted.
IEG approached me about it and were very charming about the whole process, no bad blood at all from my end. Despite enjoying the idea of casting in Korea, and especially a Team League, I have a lot of loyalty to a company (ESL) that picked me up and in essence, took a risk with a no-namer at the time. I adore working for ESL because of the freedom they give me to pursue all aspects of casting I deem necessary in order to further myself. I'm not saying working at IEG/KeSPA wouldn't have, and if they'd have approached me at another time in my Career then maybe it would have been an option, but for now, if I were to just pack up and leave to Korea, I would have to face the adaptation to a new culture, I would be burning bridges with commitments I have in EU etc. This decision was running rampant in my mind for the past few days but, someday i'll get to go to Korea to cast so all is good : )
P.S. Applied to Code A like 3-4 times in the past, never got accepted boo : P
There's plenty more reasons but no real need to divulge such minor information.
On December 07 2012 18:54 gm.tOSS wrote: Thats great, that there will be an english stream. As someone just coming back to the scene: Where can I watch it?
.......Really? This is at the very top of the first post... ~_~
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Update: KeSPA source confirms there WILL be English commentary for opening day matches. No word on specific casters.
Live Streaming (Korean): Naver, TVing, Youtube (www.youtube.com/esportstv) Live Streaming (English): Twitch.tv (www.twitch.tv/sc2proleague) Source: KeSPA
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I based the post I made on the information I was given. I never apologized to Kespa nor do I feel I did anything wrong itn making the thread.. I spoke today with IEG and took the post down after finding that my information wasn't totally accurate. Nothing more.
IEG seems to be legit in wanting to provide a good broadcast for the global scene and it's a shame things are off to a rough start. I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I based the post I made on the information I was given. I never apologized to Kespa nor do I feel I did anything wrong itn making the thread.. I spoke today with IEG and took the post down after finding that my information wasn't totally accurate. Nothing more.
IEG seems to be legit in wanting to provide a good broadcast for the global scene and it's a shame things are off to a rough start. I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
Game on.
Glad you'll get to cast the opener at least. Looking forward to it, good luck going forward dude.
On December 07 2012 18:46 LiamBrady wrote: Kaelaris just said in Scarlett's stream chat he was offered to cast it but can't:
I should come clarify this actually, just stumbled across this after wanting to read DoA's post he just tweeted.
IEG approached me about it and were very charming about the whole process, no bad blood at all from my end. Despite enjoying the idea of casting in Korea, and especially a Team League, I have a lot of loyalty to a company (ESL) that picked me up and in essence, took a risk with a no-namer at the time. I adore working for ESL because of the freedom they give me to pursue all aspects of casting I deem necessary in order to further myself. I'm not saying working at IEG/KeSPA wouldn't have, and if they'd have approached me at another time in my Career then maybe it would have been an option, but for now, if I were to just pack up and leave to Korea, I would have to face the adaptation to a new culture, I would be burning bridges with commitments I have in EU etc. This decision was running rampant in my mind for the past few days but, someday i'll get to go to Korea to cast so all is good : )
There's plenty more reasons but no real need to divulge such minor information.
Understood. You are one of the best caster analysts we have out there. Keep up the good work!
On December 07 2012 18:54 gm.tOSS wrote: Thats great, that there will be an english stream. As someone just coming back to the scene: Where can I watch it?
.......Really? This is at the very top of the first post... ~_~
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Update: KeSPA source confirms there WILL be English commentary for opening day matches. No word on specific casters.
Live Streaming (Korean): Naver, TVing, Youtube (www.youtube.com/esportstv) Live Streaming (English): Twitch.tv (www.twitch.tv/sc2proleague) Source: KeSPA
Sorry, I thought this was a different thread. So many threads on this topic :/ Thanks for pointing it out though. My bad.
On December 07 2012 18:46 LiamBrady wrote: Kaelaris just said in Scarlett's stream chat he was offered to cast it but can't:
I should come clarify this actually, just stumbled across this after wanting to read DoA's post he just tweeted.
IEG approached me about it and were very charming about the whole process, no bad blood at all from my end. Despite enjoying the idea of casting in Korea, and especially a Team League, I have a lot of loyalty to a company (ESL) that picked me up and in essence, took a risk with a no-namer at the time. I adore working for ESL because of the freedom they give me to pursue all aspects of casting I deem necessary in order to further myself. I'm not saying working at IEG/KeSPA wouldn't have, and if they'd have approached me at another time in my Career then maybe it would have been an option, but for now, if I were to just pack up and leave to Korea, I would have to face the adaptation to a new culture, I would be burning bridges with commitments I have in EU etc. This decision was running rampant in my mind for the past few days but, someday i'll get to go to Korea to cast so all is good : )
There's plenty more reasons but no real need to divulge such minor information.
Holy mother of respect, that loyalty is insanely good see.
So Doa and Monte rescues Kespa when they realized they made a huge mistake yet Kespa tries to save face by attacking the very people that saved their hides. Good on you kespa.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Update: KeSPA source confirms there WILL be English commentary for opening day matches. No word on specific casters.
snip
The association and IEG are urgently putting together the resources for an English broadcast, and are doing their best to not only reach a satisfactory agreement with OnGameNet, but also ensure and unhindered broadcast.
Combining that with Doa saying he'll cast opening day matches, can I conclude we only get English for the opening day matches from Doa, then nothing until they get their production ready and find casters willing to work for them?
Am I on the right page here? They're certainly trying to spin this and present it like less of a clusterfuck than it truly is. OGN was ready to go, I guess the idea was to pressure OGN into stricter terms and conditions? I feel like kespa was using us as some kind of leverage.. I don't know, it's hard to tell what's what.
So let me get this straight. DoA is supposed to cast the English PL, based on an agreement between OGN (DoA's employer) and KeSPA (PL owner). He has been preparing for the cast for a long time.
Two days before the PL starts, negotiations between OGN and KeSPA break down, as KeSPA wanted to have their own additional caster, and wanted to produce the English broadcast through their proxy company, IEG.
As a result, OGN decides to walk away from the altered deal. DoA makes a post about how there will be no OGN-run English broadcast. This causes a community uproar, especially as a lot of people mistook it for "there will be no English broadcast" instead of "no OGN-run English broadcast".
KeSPA then throws a fit, slanders DoA, and pretty much confirms everything above - that OGN is not doing the English broadcast, and only gonna provide the video feed, that there are ongoing conflicts between KeSPA/OGN/IEG.
Finally, KeSPA later confirms there will be English cast, done by who-knows-who, using the OGN produced video. All this happening within 48 hours before the actual event.
On December 07 2012 18:58 tomatriedes wrote: Who exactly are IEG anyway?
International E-Sports Group Incorporated. - taken from the stream background image on twitch... lol
A quick Google suggests that they were somehow involved with the CPL(Cyberathlete Professional League), were tied to the MvP Invitational, and have been active in removing Downfall parody videos (what?). Also, weren't they somehow involved with eSTRO? And is this all the same IEG/
Kespa is the biggest bunch of backalley snakes from what I can tell. I bet DoA had it right on the money, they just like to cover their asses whenever possible. Yeah okay Kespa.... you guys are perfect and everyone else are the ones who mess things up.... okay.
On December 07 2012 19:11 THF wrote: So let me get this straight. DoA is supposed to cast the English PL, based on an agreement between OGN (DoA's employer) and KeSPA (PL owner). He has been preparing for the cast for a long time.
Two days before the PL starts, negotiations between OGN and KeSPA break down, as KeSPA wanted to have their own additional caster, and wanted to produce the English broadcast through their proxy company, IEG.
As a result, OGN decides to walk away from the altered deal. DoA makes a post about how there will be no OGN-run English broadcast. This causes a community uproar, especially as a lot of people mistook it for "there will be no English broadcast" instead of "no OGN-run English broadcast".
KeSPA then throws a fit, slanders DoA, and pretty much confirms everything above - that OGN is not doing the English broadcast, and only gonna provide the video feed, that there are ongoing conflicts between KeSPA/OGN/IEG.
Finally, KeSPA later confirms there will be English cast, done by who-knows-who, using the OGN produced video. All this happening within 48 hours before the actual event.
And it's somehow all DoA's fault?
Yeah right, I know where I'm on this one.
This, basically. I have far more faith in Doa than I do in Kespa. Doa has tried time and again to bring viewers good content and has made such huge efforts to grow SC2 amongst foreign fans. Kespa, on the other hand, is known to try to rule everything SC related with an iron fist and is concerned solely with their own agenda. I back Doa 100% on this and find it hilarious than Kespa still has credibility with anyone.
On December 07 2012 19:08 Hier wrote: It's amazing how many people think KeSPA are straight up crooks that hate everything in the world.
I find it hard to believe anyone is really THAT anti KeSPA, I mean come o-
On December 07 2012 19:15 SicPro wrote: Kespa is the biggest bunch of backalley snakes from what I can tell. I bet DoA had it right on the money, they just like to cover their asses whenever possible. Yeah okay Kespa.... you guys are perfect and everyone else are the ones who mess things up.... okay.
Oh. Okay. Kind of boggles my mind sometimes but people are entitled to their opinion I guess.
At the end of the day we have an English cast, which is a good thing. Looking forward to enjoying the games.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Update: KeSPA source confirms there WILL be English commentary for opening day matches. No word on specific casters.
snip
The association and IEG are urgently putting together the resources for an English broadcast, and are doing their best to not only reach a satisfactory agreement with OnGameNet, but also ensure and unhindered broadcast.
Combining that with Doa saying he'll cast opening day matches, can I conclude we only get English for the opening day matches from Doa, then nothing until they get their production ready and find casters willing to work for them?
Am I on the right page here? They're certainly trying to spin this and present it like less of a clusterfuck than it truly is. OGN was ready to go, I guess the idea was to pressure OGN into stricter terms and conditions? I feel like kespa was using us as some kind of leverage.. I don't know, it's hard to tell what's what.
This whole things reads way too much like Doa speaking the truth (albeit a bit unprofessionally/prematurely) and KeSPA trying sweep up a hectic PR-nightmare as a result.
DoA says he was misinformed, but if he was, it wasn't about any of the major details of this scenario:
Clearly KeSPA/IEG WAS trying to put together an English production, separate from OGN's English cast. This is confirmed by Kaelaris pointing out that he was approached for the job, as well as by the fact that their infrastructure to do so already seems set up if Doa & Montecristo are now going to jump in and guest-cast for them while things get sorted out with OGN.
Clearly negotiations between OGN and KeSPA/IEG regarding English language casters WERE ongoing up until the last minute and WERE breaking down / going south. KeSPA doesn't deny this in their statement, instead only rephrasing it as "minor differences" that will delay negotiations.
OGN is NOT putting on an English language cast for the opening day of Proleague. This was the main point that Doa put across in his original statement, and it remains undisputed by all parties involved.
Regardless it seems that in the end, the result is the same, at least for the spectators. We all get to watch opening day with an English cast by Doa and Montecristo.
But the facts behind what caused all this drama still remain. What are KeSPA's intentions with this separate IEG-backed English cast, are they really trying to squeeze OGN out of English production for Proleague altogether? If not, how is it going to work?
I hope Doa is not punished too harshly for this (if at all), because he certainly doesn't deserve it.
On December 07 2012 19:11 THF wrote: So let me get this straight. DoA is supposed to cast the English PL, based on an agreement between OGN (DoA's employer) and KeSPA (PL owner). He has been preparing for the cast for a long time.
Two days before the PL starts, negotiations between OGN and KeSPA break down, as KeSPA wanted to have their own additional caster, and wanted to produce the English broadcast through their proxy company, IEG.
As a result, OGN decides to walk away from the altered deal. DoA makes a post about how there will be no OGN-run English broadcast. This causes a community uproar, especially as a lot of people mistook it for "there will be no English broadcast" instead of "no OGN-run English broadcast".
KeSPA then throws a fit, slanders DoA, and pretty much confirms everything above - that OGN is not doing the English broadcast, and only gonna provide the video feed, that there are ongoing conflicts between KeSPA/OGN/IEG.
Finally, KeSPA later confirms there will be English cast, done by who-knows-who, using the OGN produced video. All this happening within 48 hours before the actual event.
Kespa reeks of bullshit. It is a literal hell to negotiate with such delusional power-grubbers. Though I suppose they are simply trying to protect the empire they have established.
So to summerize the final point we will be watching the same casters and the same games at the same time we thought we would 24 hours ago before all this drama happened.
On December 07 2012 19:11 THF wrote: So let me get this straight. DoA is supposed to cast the English PL, based on an agreement between OGN (DoA's employer) and KeSPA (PL owner). He has been preparing for the cast for a long time.
Two days before the PL starts, negotiations between OGN and KeSPA break down, as KeSPA wanted to have their own additional caster, and wanted to produce the English broadcast through their proxy company, IEG.
As a result, OGN decides to walk away from the altered deal. DoA makes a post about how there will be no OGN-run English broadcast. This causes a community uproar, especially as a lot of people mistook it for "there will be no English broadcast" instead of "no OGN-run English broadcast".
KeSPA then throws a fit, slanders DoA, and pretty much confirms everything above - that OGN is not doing the English broadcast, and only gonna provide the video feed, that there are ongoing conflicts between KeSPA/OGN/IEG.
Finally, KeSPA later confirms there will be English cast, done by who-knows-who, using the OGN produced video. All this happening within 48 hours before the actual event.
And it's somehow all DoA's fault?
Yeah right, I know where I'm on this one.
Some mod stick this to the top of the thread.
So people can just straight up hate KeSPA again? think KeSPA could bring world piece to the whole world and u guys still would bitch about them.
On December 07 2012 19:21 Adreme wrote: So to summerize the final point we will be watching the same casters and the same games at the same time we thought we would 24 hours ago before all this drama happened.
This is correct. But after that? We'll have to see how these last minute negotiations pan out to know what the English casts for Proleague are going to look like on a regular basis down the line.
On December 07 2012 19:21 Adreme wrote: So to summerize the final point we will be watching the same casters and the same games at the same time we thought we would 24 hours ago before all this drama happened.
On December 07 2012 19:21 Adreme wrote: So to summerize the final point we will be watching the same casters and the same games at the same time we thought we would 24 hours ago before all this drama happened.
For the opening matches yeah. I can't find anything that states they will keep an English broadcast going beyond those yet, not until they get the "resources" to do their own English broadcast. But again, it's really vague and unclear what they actually mean.
On December 07 2012 18:58 tomatriedes wrote: Who exactly are IEG anyway?
International E-Sports Group Incorporated. - taken from the stream background image on twitch... lol
A quick Google suggests that they were somehow involved with the CPL(Cyberathlete Professional League), were tied to the MvP Invitational, and have been active in removing Downfall parody videos (what?). Also, weren't they somehow involved with eSTRO? And is this all the same IEG/
This doesn't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things, I'm pretty positive the people that ran CPL are long gone. Aside from the CGS aftermath, I doubt that we'll hear more from them.
I'm curious what would've happened had DoA not made the thread, and not told us all that the English OGN cast was cancelled. Would we just be sitting in the LR thread trying to figure out why the OGN Twitch stream isn't coming online? Would DoA & Monte Cristo still be casting the opening day on the KeSPA stream, and if not, would anyone be? (I have trouble believing they have any casters locked in and good to go if they're borrowing OGN's casters at the last minute). If anything, I think this whole ordeal has forced KeSPA to actually communicate with us about what's going on and attempt to make some last-minute arrangements, which we can be thankful for.
On December 07 2012 19:36 Severian wrote: I'm curious what would've happened had DoA not made the thread, and not told us all that the English OGN cast was cancelled. Would we just be sitting in the LR thread trying to figure out why the OGN Twitch stream isn't coming online? Would DoA & Monte Cristo still be casting the opening day on the KeSPA stream, and if not, would anyone be? (I have trouble believing they have any casters locked in and good to go if they're borrowing OGN's casters at the last minute). If anything, I think this whole ordeal has forced KeSPA to actually communicate with us about what's going on and attempt to make some last-minute arrangements, which we can be thankful for.
Nothing would happened we would still get some english broadcast and we wouldnt even know there were any problems. I'm still disgusted by Doas behavior, trying to ruin proleague just because things didn't go his way.
On December 07 2012 19:40 Michaels wrote: Nothing would happened we would still get some english broadcast and we wouldnt even know there were any problems. I'm still disgusted by Doas behavior, trying to ruin proleague just because things didn't go his way.
Haha, what? No we wouldn't have. The first problem is who do you think would be casting?
On December 07 2012 19:36 Severian wrote: I'm curious what would've happened had DoA not made the thread, and not told us all that the English OGN cast was cancelled. Would we just be sitting in the LR thread trying to figure out why the OGN Twitch stream isn't coming online? Would DoA & Monte Cristo still be casting the opening day on the KeSPA stream, and if not, would anyone be? (I have trouble believing they have any casters locked in and good to go if they're borrowing OGN's casters at the last minute). If anything, I think this whole ordeal has forced KeSPA to actually communicate with us about what's going on and attempt to make some last-minute arrangements, which we can be thankful for.
Nothing would happened we would still get some english broadcast and we wouldnt even know there were any problems. I'm still disgusted by Doas behavior, trying to ruin proleague just because things didn't go his way.
Who would have been doing the English cast? Because OGN still isn't providing one. The only reason we get Doa/Montecristo tomorrow is as a favor to KeSPA/IEG. What reason would they have to do that favor had he never made his post and caused this mess in the first place?
Kespa is killing esports. They're also incredibly unprofessional. Even if DoA made a mistake you don't say that he "has apologized for has made a correction" when he didn't.
So their goal is to "create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services" but they can't reach the goal "because of minor differences". What are they even trying to accomplish by releasing this information? are they trying to make themselves look bad?
Hahaha, it's funny to read when you're wearing the PR guy glasses. They can spin this all they want but shifting the blame to a guy who's generally liked in the community and so far has always had an honest no-bullshit aproach is WAY out of any professional's comfort zone. These guys need somebody to take care of these things in English and for the foreign community, period.
On December 07 2012 19:46 Swagasaurus wrote: Kespa is killing esports. They're also incredibly unprofessional. Even if DoA made a mistake you don't say that he "has apologized for has made a correction" when he didn't.
So their goal is to "create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services" but they can't reach the goal "because of minor differences". What are they even trying to accomplish by releasing this information? are they trying to make themselves look bad?
He did make a general apology in the other thread which was directed at the community, not at Kespa. They're just using that to spin this in their favour, and slander DoA on the side for good measure.
I would say that they must think we're stupid, but i don't believe this press statement thing was directed at us. It was just a face saving measure to make sure the party knows Kespa is in complete control.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
However, because of minor differences in stances between the three parties, it has been agreed to slightly extend the period of negotiations.
If the differences really were "minor" then they should have been able to come to an agreement in a short enough time. So something here smells fishy ...
I'm guessing a lot of things went lost in translation before DoA made his post. No harsh feelings toward him. I think very few can imagine how he felt when I heard he wouldn't be casting the Proleague, something I'm sure he was pretty excited for. Poor dude.
Now I'm quite interested in seeing who the English casters will be. Please don't be someone I hate, please please please.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
However, because of minor differences in stances between the three parties, it has been agreed to slightly extend the period of negotiations.
If the differences really were "minor" then they should have been able to come to an agreement in a short enough time. So something here smells fishy ...
Ofc it is not minor, even if they were shitting each other in the mouth during meetings. Once the door is open, they will eat those shit and shut up, as long as another meeting is coming. However doing it in public is a big nono, both parties should know, DoA crossed line there.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
However, because of minor differences in stances between the three parties, it has been agreed to slightly extend the period of negotiations.
If the differences really were "minor" then they should have been able to come to an agreement in a short enough time. So something here smells fishy ...
Ofc it is not minor, even if they were shitting each other in the mouth during meetings. Once the door is open, they will eat those shit and shut up, as long as another meeting is coming. However doing it in public is a big nono, both parties should know, DoA crossed line there.
Honestly, this is probably the only person in this thread that understands what DoA did wrong.
What is wrong with some people in this thread? Doa trying to ruin proleague? Doa spread misinformation and BS? Are you serious?
What Doa did, was write a post how devastated he was about Kespa now letting OGN and him cast the proleague. Two days before it was to start! He did it in a professional manner, considering, and did not tell anyone to boycott Kespa or PR.
This statement is just a response from Kespa to the shitstorm they created. Without Doa, we wouldn't have known of this underhanded dealings Kespa did. And what did they say exactly? Aaah, Doa was wrong, he didn't know anything, we are organizing an english broadcast. The PR is tomorrow people. Where are the details? Who is casting, at what time? This is just Kespa trying to get out of a situation they created, don't be fooled.
DoA didn't say it was be 100% no cast. He said it might still happen, but that there is none at the moment. But yea, it was a maybe bit harsh.
Plus how could they be angry at him when they're the ones who fucked up by canceling 2 days before the event... waaaay unprofessional for an "organization".
Don't you get, that they say basically the same things like DoA did, just in different words? This reminds me of a speech of a politican. Saying the truth, but trying to hide it between phrases the majority doesn't understand or interpretes wrong. I can translate it for you: "Originally, the Proleague's English, international broadcast service was to be handled by OnGameNet and IEG, Sat/Sun and Mon/Tue respectively (with partial financial support for the English broadcast provided by the association). " - OGN was supposed to provide the english cast (as doa said) "Additionally, for the sake of rebuilding esports and setting a foundation for continued growth, KeSPA, IEG, and OnGameNet were in talks to create a three party consortium in 2012, the year when international broadcasts began." - Kespa wanted this IEG organisation to participate in the (international) broadcasting (as DoA said) "By bundling the Starleague and Proleague, the goal was to prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services. " - unimportant blabla
"However, because of minor differences in stances between the three parties, it has been agreed to slightly extend the period of negotiations. Until a final agreement has been reached, OnGameNet's stance is that it will not broadcast in English during the weekend games of Proleague, and will only provide a clean feed of Proleague to IEG, the delivery agency." - When OGN didn't want to cooporate with IEG KESPA pulled back and took the english broadcasting rights of OGN. They still try to negotiate about it, but with no result at the moment. (as DoA said)
"The association and IEG are urgently putting together the resources for an English broadcast, and are doing their best to not only reach a satisfactory agreement with OnGameNet, but also ensure and unhindered broadcast." - Now they try to put an alternative english stream together. (with MLG probably)
"OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information. - DoA lied and tried to stir up the community against KESPA. (The last sentence could be a hint of KESPA taking actions against him (not legal ones).
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
However, because of minor differences in stances between the three parties, it has been agreed to slightly extend the period of negotiations.
If the differences really were "minor" then they should have been able to come to an agreement in a short enough time. So something here smells fishy ...
Ofc it is not minor, even if they were shitting each other in the mouth during meetings. Once the door is open, they will eat those shit and shut up, as long as another meeting is coming. However doing it in public is a big nono, both parties should know, DoA crossed line there.
Honestly, this is probably the only person in this thread that understands what DoA did wrong.
Woa! Stop Stop Stop! He didn't bring up any content of the negotations. He just informed the community about what's happening in general and that there's no result right now. Ofc since there is no result KESPA looks even worse, but this is their mistake. The key points of both statements are the same and DoA did the move to spread information. (And said that Kespa allways tries to control everything, yeah) And with Kespa wanting to control everything (haha evidence proven!), they don't want anybody but themselves to spread information about them. That's all. DoA's post was a bit biased. But it was clear, that he was expressing his own opinion and not given facts, when he talked about Kespa's behaviour in general. So he made no clear mistake. In other sports journalists are allowed to critize the head organisations too, we call that media freedom. But for kespa those things doesn't seem to exist.
On December 07 2012 20:18 TeeTS wrote: Don't you get, that they say basically the same things like DoA did, just in different words? This reminds me of a speech of a politican. Saying the truth, but trying to hide it between phrases the majority doesn't understand or interpretes wrong. I can translate it for you: "Originally, the Proleague's English, international broadcast service was to be handled by OnGameNet and IEG, Sat/Sun and Mon/Tue respectively (with partial financial support for the English broadcast provided by the association). " - OGN was supposed to provide the english cast (as doa said) "Additionally, for the sake of rebuilding esports and setting a foundation for continued growth, KeSPA, IEG, and OnGameNet were in talks to create a three party consortium in 2012, the year when international broadcasts began." - Kespa wanted this IEG organisation to participate in the (international) broadcasting (as DoA said) "By bundling the Starleague and Proleague, the goal was to prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services. " - unimportant blabla
"However, because of minor differences in stances between the three parties, it has been agreed to slightly extend the period of negotiations. Until a final agreement has been reached, OnGameNet's stance is that it will not broadcast in English during the weekend games of Proleague, and will only provide a clean feed of Proleague to IEG, the delivery agency." - When OGN didn't want to cooporate with IEG KESPA pulled back and took the english broadcasting rights of OGN. They still try to negotiate about it, but with no result at the moment. (as DoA said)
"The association and IEG are urgently putting together the resources for an English broadcast, and are doing their best to not only reach a satisfactory agreement with OnGameNet, but also ensure and unhindered broadcast." - Now they try to put an alternative english stream together. (with MLG probably)
"OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information. - DoA lied and tried to stir up the community against KESPA. (The last sentence could be a hint of KESPA taking actions against him (not legal ones).
There was nothing professional about Doa's post. I normally don't give a shit about professionalism anyway, but it went much further than unprofessional behavior when he used a misleading title (saying there will be no English stream at all) and suggested "public pressure" to change Kespa's mind.
So Kespa decided to not let OGN broadcast PL 2 days before the event. But IEG wanted Kaelaris casting an undisclosed time before this? And I am pretty sure that they wouldn't get a Kaelaris to hop into a plane 2 days before the event.
Is it Kespa's style to just announce a few days before everything that their plans have changed? While still making an alternative for them without anybody telling? Clearly a good and professional organization.
On December 07 2012 20:26 infinitum wrote: It's their fault for not letting us know until the last minute. How is this Doa's fault?
Why do you think you're entitled to know everything that's going on behind the scenes, let alone require organizations to tell you who they're negotiating with, what they're negotiating about, how they are doing it and for how long?
None of this should ever have reached the public or been discussed (and I use the term loosely) by the community. English stream was always going to be provided, all you need to do is tune in and watch the games.
On December 07 2012 20:18 TeeTS wrote: Don't you get, that they say basically the same things like DoA did, just in different words? This reminds me of a speech of a politican. Saying the truth, but trying to hide it between phrases the majority doesn't understand or interpretes wrong. I can translate it for you: "Originally, the Proleague's English, international broadcast service was to be handled by OnGameNet and IEG, Sat/Sun and Mon/Tue respectively (with partial financial support for the English broadcast provided by the association). " - OGN was supposed to provide the english cast (as doa said) "Additionally, for the sake of rebuilding esports and setting a foundation for continued growth, KeSPA, IEG, and OnGameNet were in talks to create a three party consortium in 2012, the year when international broadcasts began." - Kespa wanted this IEG organisation to participate in the (international) broadcasting (as DoA said) "By bundling the Starleague and Proleague, the goal was to prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services. " - unimportant blabla
"However, because of minor differences in stances between the three parties, it has been agreed to slightly extend the period of negotiations. Until a final agreement has been reached, OnGameNet's stance is that it will not broadcast in English during the weekend games of Proleague, and will only provide a clean feed of Proleague to IEG, the delivery agency." - When OGN didn't want to cooporate with IEG KESPA pulled back and took the english broadcasting rights of OGN. They still try to negotiate about it, but with no result at the moment. (as DoA said)
"The association and IEG are urgently putting together the resources for an English broadcast, and are doing their best to not only reach a satisfactory agreement with OnGameNet, but also ensure and unhindered broadcast." - Now they try to put an alternative english stream together. (with MLG probably)
"OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information. - DoA lied and tried to stir up the community against KESPA. (The last sentence could be a hint of KESPA taking actions against him (not legal ones).
Typical KESPA move, if you ask me.
This does seem like just a part of negotiation between Kespa and OGN, but if that is the case, then DoA's reaction also seem premature and more emotional than need be. He was told half the story and went from there. Neither party is blameless. But to echo DoA: enough idiotic corporate politics, thanks!
On December 07 2012 20:26 infinitum wrote: It's their fault for not letting us know until the last minute. How is this Doa's fault?
Why do you think you're entitled to know everything that's going on behind the scenes, let alone require organizations to tell you who they're negotiating with, what they're negotiating about, how they are doing it and for how long?
None of this should ever have reached the public or been discussed (and I use the term loosely) by the community. English stream was always going to be provided, all you need to do is tune in and watch the games.
And maybe next time you go to Korea to cast PR, and they let you know two days before that you don't have a job...
We weren't even sure there would be an english cast. No one from Kespa said anything. In fact, no one but Doa tried to even inform the foreign community. We still don't know, and it starts tomorrow!
On December 07 2012 20:18 TeeTS wrote: Don't you get, that they say basically the same things like DoA did, just in different words? This reminds me of a speech of a politican. Saying the truth, but trying to hide it between phrases the majority doesn't understand or interpretes wrong. I can translate it for you: "Originally, the Proleague's English, international broadcast service was to be handled by OnGameNet and IEG, Sat/Sun and Mon/Tue respectively (with partial financial support for the English broadcast provided by the association). " - OGN was supposed to provide the english cast (as doa said) "Additionally, for the sake of rebuilding esports and setting a foundation for continued growth, KeSPA, IEG, and OnGameNet were in talks to create a three party consortium in 2012, the year when international broadcasts began." - Kespa wanted this IEG organisation to participate in the (international) broadcasting (as DoA said) "By bundling the Starleague and Proleague, the goal was to prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services. " - unimportant blabla
"However, because of minor differences in stances between the three parties, it has been agreed to slightly extend the period of negotiations. Until a final agreement has been reached, OnGameNet's stance is that it will not broadcast in English during the weekend games of Proleague, and will only provide a clean feed of Proleague to IEG, the delivery agency." - When OGN didn't want to cooporate with IEG KESPA pulled back and took the english broadcasting rights of OGN. They still try to negotiate about it, but with no result at the moment. (as DoA said)
"The association and IEG are urgently putting together the resources for an English broadcast, and are doing their best to not only reach a satisfactory agreement with OnGameNet, but also ensure and unhindered broadcast." - Now they try to put an alternative english stream together. (with MLG probably)
"OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information. - DoA lied and tried to stir up the community against KESPA. (The last sentence could be a hint of KESPA taking actions against him (not legal ones).
Typical KESPA move, if you ask me.
This does seem like just a part of negotiation between Kespa and OGN, but if that is the case, then DoA's reaction also seem premature and more emotional than need be. He was told half the story and went from there. Neither party is blameless. But to echo DoA: enough idiotic corporate politics, thanks!
you really believe that sacking your longterm broadcasting partner 2days before the actual event is a normal part of negotiation? Do YOU really believe that?
On December 07 2012 19:15 SicPro wrote: Kespa is the biggest bunch of backalley snakes from what I can tell. I bet DoA had it right on the money, they just like to cover their asses whenever possible. Yeah okay Kespa.... you guys are perfect and everyone else are the ones who mess things up.... okay.
Oh. Okay. Kind of boggles my mind sometimes but people are entitled to their opinion I guess.
At the end of the day we have an English cast, which is a good thing. Looking forward to enjoying the games.
It boggles my mind how people look at Kespa as a credible professional organisation here's one example right now + Show Spoiler +
OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction.
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I based the post I made on the information I was given. I never apologized to Kespa nor do I feel I did anything wrong itn making the thread..
Kespa just LIED in an official statement! What professional organisation does that? Okay, I'm willing to accept that this (on it's own) is not a big deal at all, that there could be some context lost in translation and I'm assuming the Kespa lied, not DoA. But based on past I'm far more partial to taking DoA's 'side' in all this mess. I haven't know Kespa that long, I got into SC2 around 2010 and have known of them since then, and since the final BW-->WoL switch they've gained a lot more exposure to my personal news feed. In just those few months they've conducted themselves as a pathetic bunch of schoolkids trying to wrest as much power as they can in what appears to be some construed attempt to monopolise the SC2 Korean Esports scene (I am romanticising now, but there is definitely a lot of unnecessary mussel flexing from Kespa). A common tactic usually involves 'pulling out' in some way just days (sometimes hours) before they were supposed to honour their commitments. Most notably the whole Rain to MLG and no Kespa players in GSL bullshit.
Does it really boggle your mind when people are suspicious and mistrusting of an organisation like that? Even if Kespa mended their ways from this day forth and never put a foot wrong people would still be mistrusting for a long while. You can brush the shit off your boot, but the stink still lingers.
On December 07 2012 20:26 infinitum wrote: It's their fault for not letting us know until the last minute. How is this Doa's fault?
Why do you think you're entitled to know everything that's going on behind the scenes, let alone require organizations to tell you who they're negotiating with, what they're negotiating about, how they are doing it and for how long?
None of this should ever have reached the public or been discussed (and I use the term loosely) by the community. English stream was always going to be provided, all you need to do is tune in and watch the games.
Where are you getting this from? If you read DoA's post, he's going to be casting the opening matches (and only the opening matches)
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
Unless you have a source I don't, there's not going to be English coverage until IEG get the "resources" that are mentioned in the original post together. Does it state anywhere there'll be an English stream past the opening matches?
I'm completely with you on that they have no obligation to fill us in on everything going on behind the scenes, but whether or not there will be English coverage past the opening matches seems like something that should certainly be publicly known. Clearly IEG/Kespa weren't ready to provide an English stream this weekend, or Doa wouldn't be casting..
On December 07 2012 20:18 TeeTS wrote: Don't you get, that they say basically the same things like DoA did, just in different words? This reminds me of a speech of a politican. Saying the truth, but trying to hide it between phrases the majority doesn't understand or interpretes wrong. I can translate it for you: "Originally, the Proleague's English, international broadcast service was to be handled by OnGameNet and IEG, Sat/Sun and Mon/Tue respectively (with partial financial support for the English broadcast provided by the association). " - OGN was supposed to provide the english cast (as doa said) "Additionally, for the sake of rebuilding esports and setting a foundation for continued growth, KeSPA, IEG, and OnGameNet were in talks to create a three party consortium in 2012, the year when international broadcasts began." - Kespa wanted this IEG organisation to participate in the (international) broadcasting (as DoA said) "By bundling the Starleague and Proleague, the goal was to prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services. " - unimportant blabla
"However, because of minor differences in stances between the three parties, it has been agreed to slightly extend the period of negotiations. Until a final agreement has been reached, OnGameNet's stance is that it will not broadcast in English during the weekend games of Proleague, and will only provide a clean feed of Proleague to IEG, the delivery agency." - When OGN didn't want to cooporate with IEG KESPA pulled back and took the english broadcasting rights of OGN. They still try to negotiate about it, but with no result at the moment. (as DoA said)
"The association and IEG are urgently putting together the resources for an English broadcast, and are doing their best to not only reach a satisfactory agreement with OnGameNet, but also ensure and unhindered broadcast." - Now they try to put an alternative english stream together. (with MLG probably)
"OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information. - DoA lied and tried to stir up the community against KESPA. (The last sentence could be a hint of KESPA taking actions against him (not legal ones).
Typical KESPA move, if you ask me.
This does seem like just a part of negotiation between Kespa and OGN, but if that is the case, then DoA's reaction also seem premature and more emotional than need be. He was told half the story and went from there. Neither party is blameless. But to echo DoA: enough idiotic corporate politics, thanks!
you really believe that sacking your longterm broadcasting partner 2days before the actual event is a normal part of negotiation? Do YOU really believe that?
They never did English stream together before, so they are never partner in this matter. Nobody should assume it is a sure thing, especially when money is involved. It's the OGN casters who assumed that, but found out it is not the case, then lashed out.
On December 07 2012 20:36 trada wrote: so there will be an english broadcast but I guess it wont be DoA casting after all this?
As far as I can figure, as it stands, DoA is casting the opening matches. Then nothing, until Kespa/IEG have whatever "resources" they need to set up their own English stream.
It's nice to see that the biggest teamleague values it's international audience so much that they have no idea who will broadcast proleague to them less than 24 hours before it starts.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Update: KeSPA source confirms there WILL be English commentary for opening day matches. No word on specific casters. Live Streaming (English): Twitch.tv (www.twitch.tv/sc2proleague)
I think one of the main reasons Doa took the job was to cast Proleague. If he would've known this I wonder if he would've gone back. And then kespa telling him he isn't casting 2 days before it starts? Yea id be pissed. I'm surprised he was able to handle it that well to be honest
On December 07 2012 20:49 TommyP wrote: I think one of the main reasons Doa took the job was to cast Proleague. If he would've known this I wonder if he would've gone back. And then kespa telling him he isn't casting 2 days before it starts? Yea id be pissed. I'm surprised he was able to handle it that well to be honest
On December 07 2012 18:29 styleworks79 wrote: I don't really understand why some people are jumping the gun on DoA's post case. Whatever he said corresponds to what GaeSPA is trying to clear up. Quite frankly, if it wasn't for DoA, I don't even think GaeSPA wouldn't even bother to trying to clear things up.
I wonder how many people got the quip xD
On the subject, I trust an emotional DoA a helluva lot more than an emotional Kespa. I mean, seriously? Blatantly lying about DoA apologizing and making him out to seem like some kind of idiot saboteur?
Like him or dislike him, I think its hard to say Doa's ever seemed to have had anything but best of intentions in what he does. Dude speaks his mind, and does so in a pretty objective, positive tone, from what seems to be the best of his knowledge.
Then again, rusty pitchforks are rusty pitchforks around here I guess :/
On December 07 2012 18:29 styleworks79 wrote: I don't really understand why some people are jumping the gun on DoA's post case. Whatever he said corresponds to what GaeSPA is trying to clear up. Quite frankly, if it wasn't for DoA, I don't even think GaeSPA wouldn't even bother to trying to clear things up.
I wonder how many people got the quip xD
On the subject, I trust an emotional DoA a helluva lot more than an emotional Kespa. I mean, seriously? Blatantly lying about DoA apologizing and making him out to seem like some kind of idiot saboteur?
Doa's employer (OGN) probably apologized on his behalf. You should start thinking instead of trying to start another shitstorm.
On December 07 2012 20:26 infinitum wrote: It's their fault for not letting us know until the last minute. How is this Doa's fault?
Why do you think you're entitled to know everything that's going on behind the scenes, let alone require organizations to tell you who they're negotiating with, what they're negotiating about, how they are doing it and for how long?
None of this should ever have reached the public or been discussed (and I use the term loosely) by the community. English stream was always going to be provided, all you need to do is tune in and watch the games.
Where are you getting this from? If you read DoA's post, he's going to be casting the opening matches (and only the opening matches)
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
Unless you have a source I don't, there's not going to be English coverage until IEG get the "resources" that are mentioned in the original post together. Does it state anywhere there'll be an English stream past the opening matches?
I'm completely with you on that they have no obligation to fill us in on everything going on behind the scenes, but whether or not there will be English coverage past the opening matches seems like something that should certainly be publicly known. Clearly IEG/Kespa weren't ready to provide an English stream this weekend, or Doa wouldn't be casting..
The casters they have for the opening games are a temporary solution, and with the negotiations that were ongoing there's no reason to believe that the exact same temporary solution (or even a different one for that matter) wouldn't be in place anyway until the IEG can get theirs going.
Bleh. Like I'm going to take KeSPA's word. 'Minor' differences caused them to try and wing their opening day - they don't even know who will be casting less than 24 hours before the event? Suuuuure.
Whatever. Give me my Doa. Great caster, love him, only wish Moletrap was still casting with him.
On December 07 2012 20:26 infinitum wrote: It's their fault for not letting us know until the last minute. How is this Doa's fault?
Why do you think you're entitled to know everything that's going on behind the scenes, let alone require organizations to tell you who they're negotiating with, what they're negotiating about, how they are doing it and for how long?
None of this should ever have reached the public or been discussed (and I use the term loosely) by the community. English stream was always going to be provided, all you need to do is tune in and watch the games.
Where are you getting this from? If you read DoA's post, he's going to be casting the opening matches (and only the opening matches)
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
Unless you have a source I don't, there's not going to be English coverage until IEG get the "resources" that are mentioned in the original post together. Does it state anywhere there'll be an English stream past the opening matches?
I'm completely with you on that they have no obligation to fill us in on everything going on behind the scenes, but whether or not there will be English coverage past the opening matches seems like something that should certainly be publicly known. Clearly IEG/Kespa weren't ready to provide an English stream this weekend, or Doa wouldn't be casting..
The casters they have for the opening games are a temporary solution, and with the negotiations that were ongoing there's no reason to believe that the exact same temporary solution (or even a different one for that matter) wouldn't be in place anyway until the IEG can get theirs going.
There's no reason to believe the exact same solution will be in place until the IEG can get theirs going. What you're posting is pure speculation, DoA specifically says he's casting the opening games in English as a favor to Kespa on behalf of OGN. That certainly implies he won't continue to do so or at the least that nothing has been decided. You can't just assume that everything will magically be alright. I gave you the benefit of the doubt figuring you read something I hadn't, but so much for that..
i think DOAs post and the amount of reaction it has gotten has got TL and the Foriegn fans some reaction from IEG and Kespa/ogn we are no longer being ignored or shund, i hope DOA has burned any bridges over the post and hes safe in his job at ogn.
NASL-Sound-Guy seems to have infiltrated Kespa's PR-department. Quite inflammatory for an official statement and very strange for them not to have all the casting details worked out and released so close to the opening matches.
On December 07 2012 21:35 Vansetsu wrote: Jesus there are some rusty pitchforks up in here.
Like him or dislike him, I think its hard to say Doa's ever seemed to have had anything but best of intentions in what he does. Dude speaks his mind, and does so in a pretty objective, positive tone, from what seems to be the best of his knowledge.
Then again, rusty pitchforks are rusty pitchforks around here I guess :/
Nah ... I keep mine pointy and well oiled with all the crap going on (Blizzard's random unit design and sledgehammer patches and KeSPA's tyrannical behaviour) make pitchforks a well used tool around SC2.
On December 07 2012 20:26 infinitum wrote: It's their fault for not letting us know until the last minute. How is this Doa's fault?
Why do you think you're entitled to know everything that's going on behind the scenes, let alone require organizations to tell you who they're negotiating with, what they're negotiating about, how they are doing it and for how long?
None of this should ever have reached the public or been discussed (and I use the term loosely) by the community. English stream was always going to be provided, all you need to do is tune in and watch the games.
Where are you getting this from? If you read DoA's post, he's going to be casting the opening matches (and only the opening matches)
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
Unless you have a source I don't, there's not going to be English coverage until IEG get the "resources" that are mentioned in the original post together. Does it state anywhere there'll be an English stream past the opening matches?
I'm completely with you on that they have no obligation to fill us in on everything going on behind the scenes, but whether or not there will be English coverage past the opening matches seems like something that should certainly be publicly known. Clearly IEG/Kespa weren't ready to provide an English stream this weekend, or Doa wouldn't be casting..
The casters they have for the opening games are a temporary solution, and with the negotiations that were ongoing there's no reason to believe that the exact same temporary solution (or even a different one for that matter) wouldn't be in place anyway until the IEG can get theirs going.
There's no reason to believe the exact same solution will be in place until the IEG can get theirs going. What you're posting is pure speculation, DoA specifically says he's casting the opening games in English as a favor to Kespa on behalf of OGN. That certainly implies he won't continue to do so or at the least that nothing has been decided. You can't just assume that everything will magically be alright. I gave you the benefit of the doubt figuring you read something I hadn't, but so much for that..
The fact is that so far, English stream has been provided. Whether it's a "favor", temporary solution, permanent solution, or any other form of solution, as far as viewers are concerned it IS a solution and, most importantly, no games have had (or will have in the foreseeable future) a missing English stream.
If Doa hadn't spilled the beans on something that the public shouldn't have been privy to in the first place, there would be streams and people would be none the wiser as to what was going on behind the scenes. So far, from a spectator's perspective, everything had been going smoothly. How about waiting until something actually goes wrong with the English stream before the pitchforks get going, or has it suddenly become reasonable to predict that something will go wrong and go nuts over it before it actually does?
Second of all, it's kind of silly to suggest that believing that everything will work out fine is "speculation", when the belief that there will be no English streams was based on speculation to begin with - and ultimately proven to be wrong.
Just because we happen to have more information than we should have, or normally would have, about what's going on (because one of OGN's employeers behaved less than professionally to say the least), doesn't mean you or anybody else now has enough objective insight into everything that's going on in the negotiations, or what the problems and/or future solutions will be.
Why is anyone blaming Doa when afaict everything KeSPA says here only reaffirms exactly what Doa said. Doa said OGN will not have an English broadcast - they won't. He said KeSPA's IEG wants their own English casters whether it's with OGN's casters on OGN or on IEG's own broadcast - they do. He said that MLG Lee's tweet implies that MLG may have been approached to do the English cast - it does.
I find it very hard to believe that Doa would have even posted all that truthful information about why OGN would not be broadcasting if someone at OGN had not told him to do so. Anyone that values their job knows not to tell the public about private company information, but perhaps he doesn't value the job if he can't cast Proleague... Either way, he's not being chastised for spreading misinformation as KeSPA claims, they pimp slapped him for telling the truth and revealing that KeSPA is making another power play.
For the record, Doa and Montecristo will be casting the opening day (confirmed earlier on the OGN winters LoL Championship stream they were casting). No mention of anything else.
Is it wrong of me to read the Kespa announcement and think back to all of the TSL stuff of yesteryear? I'm pretty sure it is but that's the feeling I'm getting at least.
My two cents. Doa posted a heartfelt "Sorry guys, we won't be casting PL this season" post and explained why. I'd rather have reasons explained as to why stuff went south than to just say "Sorry, not gonna happen, can't tell you why, kkthx." He didn't post anything volatile, either. No "secret boardroom info," no "Kespa's trying to screw over everyone." People seem to think that all of this is Doa's fault. It's not. He's not in the meetings (as far as we know) trying to strike a deal. He just works for a company and his bosses came to him and said, "Look. You know that gig you were supposed to have? Well, that's not going to happen this year." All of the information he posted was CONFIRMED by Kespa's post and Kaelaris. IEG approached him BEFORE Doa posted his stuff, meaning that Kespa/IEG was trying to find their own in-house English casters. And if Kespa/IEG has their own in-house casters for PL, why would they want to split time with ONG? Give their people the work and get the money from it. That's standard business practices. When building a house, you don't hire two different crews to do the exact same thing.
I've only been "in the scene" for a couple of years now (tail end of BW) but not once have I ever heard anything "good" from Kespa. I find it shocking that people are ready to crucify Doa. Well, I really shouldn't since I imagine a lot of the posters in this thread blasting him are probably doing it for troll purposes. Should we suddenly forget the Kespa/GOM issues of two seasons ago when Kespa threatened to pull out its players days before the season started? This smacks of exactly the same mindset (We'll pull away just before it starts so you're left scrambling to appease us.) to me.
Anyway, I do thank Doa for his post because for all WE know, none of this (English stream, "gifted" casters) would have been there for tonight. I'm not so naive to think that this will be the result for the rest of the year but at least the opener we'll have something.
Oh, and of course there's more drama in esports than in real sports. Real sports have governing bodies that set rules that everyone has to follow. The NFL is one league and all of the teams that play in that league have to abide them. The big difference between Kespa and professional sports leagues? Most of the time, professional sports leagues don't hamstring their players or threaten them/their teams with sanctions. Imagine if an NBA player was fined/kicked from the league for tossing out the first pitch at a baseball game. If a Kespa player tried to play in a tournament that Kespa didn't say they could, you could bet that the player would be removed from his team and his team fined.
"A man who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither." For some reason, anytime Kespa is talked about, that quote pops into my head.
I was gonna write something, but the first paragraph this quoted post below pretty much sums it up lol
On December 07 2012 22:15 phuzi0n wrote: Why is anyone blaming Doa when afaict everything KeSPA says here only reaffirms exactly what Doa said. Doa said OGN will not have an English broadcast - they won't. He said KeSPA's IEG wants their own English casters whether it's with OGN's casters on OGN or on IEG's own broadcast - they do. He said that MLG Lee's tweet implies that MLG may have been approached to do the English cast - it does.
I find it very hard to believe that Doa would have even posted all that truthful information about why OGN would not be broadcasting if someone at OGN had not told him to do so. Anyone that values their job knows not to tell the public about private company information, but perhaps he doesn't value the job if he can't cast Proleague... Either way, he's not being chastised for spreading misinformation as KeSPA claims, they pimp slapped him for telling the truth and revealing that KeSPA is making another power play.
On December 07 2012 20:26 infinitum wrote: It's their fault for not letting us know until the last minute. How is this Doa's fault?
Why do you think you're entitled to know everything that's going on behind the scenes, let alone require organizations to tell you who they're negotiating with, what they're negotiating about, how they are doing it and for how long?
None of this should ever have reached the public or been discussed (and I use the term loosely) by the community. English stream was always going to be provided, all you need to do is tune in and watch the games.
I'm entitled because I thought there would be english broadcast for PL. When in fact, if it wasn't for DoA making that post, there wasn't going to be one. I would wake up at 4 AM to watch some korean comentators. See why I am "entitled" to know?
On December 07 2012 20:26 infinitum wrote: It's their fault for not letting us know until the last minute. How is this Doa's fault?
Why do you think you're entitled to know everything that's going on behind the scenes, let alone require organizations to tell you who they're negotiating with, what they're negotiating about, how they are doing it and for how long?
None of this should ever have reached the public or been discussed (and I use the term loosely) by the community. English stream was always going to be provided, all you need to do is tune in and watch the games.
Where are you getting this from? If you read DoA's post, he's going to be casting the opening matches (and only the opening matches)
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
Unless you have a source I don't, there's not going to be English coverage until IEG get the "resources" that are mentioned in the original post together. Does it state anywhere there'll be an English stream past the opening matches?
I'm completely with you on that they have no obligation to fill us in on everything going on behind the scenes, but whether or not there will be English coverage past the opening matches seems like something that should certainly be publicly known. Clearly IEG/Kespa weren't ready to provide an English stream this weekend, or Doa wouldn't be casting..
The casters they have for the opening games are a temporary solution, and with the negotiations that were ongoing there's no reason to believe that the exact same temporary solution (or even a different one for that matter) wouldn't be in place anyway until the IEG can get theirs going.
There's no reason to believe the exact same solution will be in place until the IEG can get theirs going. What you're posting is pure speculation, DoA specifically says he's casting the opening games in English as a favor to Kespa on behalf of OGN. That certainly implies he won't continue to do so or at the least that nothing has been decided. You can't just assume that everything will magically be alright. I gave you the benefit of the doubt figuring you read something I hadn't, but so much for that..
The fact is that so far, English stream has been provided. Whether it's a "favor", temporary solution, permanent solution, or any other form of solution, as far as viewers are concerned it IS a solution and, most importantly, no games have had (or will have in the foreseeable future) a missing English stream.
If Doa hadn't spilled the beans on something that the public shouldn't have been privy to in the first place, there would be streams and people would be none the wiser as to what was going on behind the scenes. So far, from a spectator's perspective, everything had been going smoothly. How about waiting until something actually goes wrong with the English stream before the pitchforks get going, or has it suddenly become reasonable to predict that something will go wrong and go nuts over it before it actually does?
Second of all, it's kind of silly to suggest that believing that everything will work out fine is "speculation", when the belief that there will be no English streams was based on speculation to begin with - and ultimately proven to be wrong.
Just because we happen to have more information than we should have, or normally would have, about what's going on (because one of OGN's employeers behaved less than professionally to say the least), doesn't mean you or anybody else now has enough objective insight into everything that's going on in the negotiations, or what the problems and/or future solutions will be.
That's so warped.. If DoA hadn't made his thread and people wouldn't have reacted, odds are he wouldn't have been casting and we wouldn't have had an English stream. As far as DoA concerned he most certainly wasn't going to be casting when he posted.
An English stream was to be provided by OGN and DoA was to cast it. DoA finds out OGN won't be providing an English stream and won't be casting. DoA makes thread and people react because they don't know if there will be any alternative. DoA is asked to cast the opening matches as a favor to kespa.
As of right now, as far as I've read, nobody has said anything about what is considered as "opening day matches" and how long this solution will last. That is reason for concern. If DoA comes in and posts, yeah, I'll be casting until Kespa gets whatever resources they need or Kespa guarantees as much, great /end thread
For now, I don't see how "There will be an English stream for opening day matches" translates into "There will be an English stream for PL throughout the season".
On December 07 2012 22:36 Martijn wrote: As of right now, as far as I've read, nobody has said anything about what is considered as "opening matches" and how long this solution will last. That is reason for concern. If DoA comes in and posts, yeah, I'll be casting until Kespa gets whatever resources they need or Kespa guarantees as much, great /end thread
Tonight only, I imagine. They said "opening matches" and not "first week." I imagine they'll either keep Doa/Monte on "as favors from OGN" until IEG can wrangle someone into casting for them (probably not live casting, I imagine it'd be a restreamed cast like Sayle did).
On December 07 2012 22:36 Martijn wrote: As of right now, as far as I've read, nobody has said anything about what is considered as "opening matches" and how long this solution will last. That is reason for concern. If DoA comes in and posts, yeah, I'll be casting until Kespa gets whatever resources they need or Kespa guarantees as much, great /end thread
Tonight only, I imagine. They said "opening matches" and not "first week." I imagine they'll either keep Doa/Monte on "as favors from OGN" until IEG can wrangle someone into casting for them (probably not live casting, I imagine it'd be a restreamed cast like Sayle did).
I'm hoping they'll keep on DoA/Monte, because lets face it, someone restreaming it with commentary just isn't the same. And that's coming from someone who has done them heh.
Good on doa for bringing up the issue and letting the masses know of a big potential problem. Misinformation or not it's too bad he has to take blame but you can't fault kespa for saying what they did in the statement.
On December 07 2012 22:36 Martijn wrote: As of right now, as far as I've read, nobody has said anything about what is considered as "opening matches" and how long this solution will last. That is reason for concern. If DoA comes in and posts, yeah, I'll be casting until Kespa gets whatever resources they need or Kespa guarantees as much, great /end thread
Tonight only, I imagine. They said "opening matches" and not "first week." I imagine they'll either keep Doa/Monte on "as favors from OGN" until IEG can wrangle someone into casting for them (probably not live casting, I imagine it'd be a restreamed cast like Sayle did).
Also considering Doa is live casting LoL right now, I'm fairly sure he wont get around to posting anything for a few hours at least (if at all since its getting towards 11pm in Seoul atm - finish cast, get home etc).
We should all realize why there was so much drama to begin with. There was NO information from KeSPA nor OGN to begin with, so 2 days before the opening day DoA comes out with the information that was given to him.
No shit that it's going to blow up. I don't fault DoA, this is his passion and he may have acted outside of his jurisdiction but he did what was right at the time INFORM US.
He said there would be no OGN cast of it, and that he was sad he couldn't do it. IIRC the post was 'no ogn english broadcast for proleague' so you can't really say he was misleading, so long as you read what he actually wrote. Poor guy
On December 07 2012 22:43 Tobblish wrote: We should all realize why there was so much drama to begin with. There was NO information from KeSPA nor OGN to begin with, so 2 days before the opening day DoA comes out with the information that was given to him.
No shit that it's going to blow up. I don't fault DoA, this is his passion and he may have acted outside of his jurisdiction but he did what was right at the time INFORM US.
I cant agree with this more. When the EG-Liquid news was announced, I looked around, eventually found the schedule but still absolutely no details about who/what/where I could find my stream other than vague hints by DoA in his casts for OGN LoL Championships that he and monte would do Proleague too.
On December 07 2012 22:38 MysterySC wrote: I think people like DoA and Slasher should stop posting BS with no fact-checking.... their are better ways to stay relevant.
It sure is better not knowing anything. That dastardly and totally selfish DoA shouldn't try to tell us what is going on from as far as he knows.
really,
Sometimes I don't want to be in this community anymore.
On December 07 2012 22:53 ArchangelJada wrote: Yay english streeam, wonder who will be casting it.
DoA/Monte, likely only tonights matches. After that it's unclear when we'll get an English stream and who'll be casting, just that Kespa is gathering resources to get an English stream at some point.
I dont think DoA was wrong, I think this post is a reaction to what he stated yesterday. Just another way KeSPA is trying to manipulate the scene, its not good business and I will be reluctant to consider them part of esports soon.
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
Well, from what he had posted in the thread he created, he fucked up a bit. Definitely jumped the gun and didn't have all of the information. And it made everyone working on that issue look really bad and apathetic towards the cause.
Anyways, I hope the English broadcasting actually becomes a reality. I also hope that some other people (ideally progamers) would consider streaming, commentating, and analyzing Proleague on opening day just in case.
On December 07 2012 22:38 MysterySC wrote: I think people like DoA and Slasher should stop posting BS with no fact-checking.... their are better ways to stay relevant.
Did you even read Doa's original post? If so then please point out even one incorrect fact. If not then why are you posting at all?
On December 07 2012 22:15 phuzi0n wrote: Why is anyone blaming Doa when afaict everything KeSPA says here only reaffirms exactly what Doa said. Doa said OGN will not have an English broadcast - they won't. He said KeSPA's IEG wants their own English casters whether it's with OGN's casters on OGN or on IEG's own broadcast - they do. He said that MLG Lee's tweet implies that MLG may have been approached to do the English cast - it does.
I find it very hard to believe that Doa would have even posted all that truthful information about why OGN would not be broadcasting if someone at OGN had not told him to do so. Anyone that values their job knows not to tell the public about private company information, but perhaps he doesn't value the job if he can't cast Proleague... Either way, he's not being chastised for spreading misinformation as KeSPA claims, they pimp slapped him for telling the truth and revealing that KeSPA is making another power play.
yea, exactly my thoughts too. god damnit KeSPA ......
On December 07 2012 22:15 phuzi0n wrote: Why is anyone blaming Doa when afaict everything KeSPA says here only reaffirms exactly what Doa said. Doa said OGN will not have an English broadcast - they won't. He said KeSPA's IEG wants their own English casters whether it's with OGN's casters on OGN or on IEG's own broadcast - they do. He said that MLG Lee's tweet implies that MLG may have been approached to do the English cast - it does.
I find it very hard to believe that Doa would have even posted all that truthful information about why OGN would not be broadcasting if someone at OGN had not told him to do so. Anyone that values their job knows not to tell the public about private company information, but perhaps he doesn't value the job if he can't cast Proleague... Either way, he's not being chastised for spreading misinformation as KeSPA claims, they pimp slapped him for telling the truth and revealing that KeSPA is making another power play.
Totally agree! As it stands now for me, Doa had a valid point and KeSPA is now trying to pour oil on troubled water. Not even sure if we would have an English broadcast without him now. KeSPA (?) just registered the twitch account today!! Other organisations would have done so way in advance if they had any plans to do so...
I guess in favor of relations between ogn and kespa, doa had to be corrected in some way, even if only for keeping up appearances to the foreign scene. These 'negotiations' seem to not go too smooth. I really hope a decent english cast will become available.
On December 07 2012 23:07 monx wrote: Funny about this is people blaming Doa and defending Kespa. Get your shit straight people...the enemy is Kespa...for christ sake
No, that's not funny at all. Funny is how people fail to see the political aspects of these messages and keep thinking in black and white. Or actually it's not even funny, it's frustrating.
On December 07 2012 22:36 Martijn wrote: That's so warped.. If DoA hadn't made his thread and people wouldn't have reacted, odds are he wouldn't have been casting and we wouldn't have had an English stream. As far as DoA concerned he most certainly wasn't going to be casting when he posted.
There is no logic in what you are saying at all. At the time he wrote that, he thought wasn't going to be casting. Twelve hours later, the arrangement between OGN and Kespa could have been made for him to cast the opening rounds as a temporary solution while the negotiations were still going on. Or come to a different arrangement and have somebody else do it. You CHOOSE to assume that no solution would be found or arrangement made, based on what exactly?
You also CHOOSE to believe things changed because of the thread Doa posted on teamliquid. Whereas a more obvious reason could be that it's because it's logical that OGN (who are still interested in doing the broadcast) would offer it as an easiest temporary solution once it became clear that the problems couldn't be resolved before the opening match.
In fact, if there was suddenly no English stream for the opening games, Kespa would have felt the exact same public pressure anyway (probably worse). So if they were already resolved to having no English stream because of the delay in negotiations, as you appear to believe, then Doa's thread wouldn't have suddenly changed their mind.
On December 07 2012 22:36 Martijn wrote: As of right now, as far as I've read, nobody has said anything about what is considered as "opening day matches" and how long this solution will last. That is reason for concern. If DoA comes in and posts, yeah, I'll be casting until Kespa gets whatever resources they need or Kespa guarantees as much, great /end thread
But all of that is their internal issue. Let them handle it, or don't handle it, and react when/if they don't. So far, you've missed nothing, you're just making assumptions about what could, maybe, happen in the future.
DoA isn't the only commentator in the world, and doesn't take part in the negotiations so that what he says would always be accurate, or be as accurate the next day, or in two days as positions change. Even if he says that he won't be casting at all shouldn't be a rational reason to believe that there will be no English stream. He said he wouldn't be casting, and now it turns out he is. He said OGN wouldn't broadcast it, and now they are.
So if he writes a new one and says something else tonight (such as that they will only cast opening games for example), would it be more reasonable to kneejerk-react to what one person says is going on, or just wait and see what actually ends up happening and what the official sources say and THEN react?
Kespa as an organization seems to be run by a bunch of douche-bags..."distorted, easily misunderstood information" and "misinformation"? It was a mistake by DoA clearly, but prior to this it doesn't seem like they had provided any information to the contrary. How about you put a schedule out or something like most organizations who run a tournament? And get a better translator..."misinformation" implies that someone purposely put out bad information....look it up. This is just a weird response to a simple mistake....I'm willing to bet they hadn't planned on having English language casting and then didn't want to look like the douche-bags they are when DoA called them out...that's the only way I can explain this aggressively defensive response.
I mean really, couldn't you just say "We are actually proud to offer an english stream on twitch, please tune in".
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
For all we know DoA was correct, and he brought this to the attention of the bosses.
On December 07 2012 22:32 6BiT wrote: I was gonna write something, but the first paragraph this quoted post below pretty much sums it up lol
On December 07 2012 22:15 phuzi0n wrote: Why is anyone blaming Doa when afaict everything KeSPA says here only reaffirms exactly what Doa said. Doa said OGN will not have an English broadcast - they won't. He said KeSPA's IEG wants their own English casters whether it's with OGN's casters on OGN or on IEG's own broadcast - they do. He said that MLG Lee's tweet implies that MLG may have been approached to do the English cast - it does.
I find it very hard to believe that Doa would have even posted all that truthful information about why OGN would not be broadcasting if someone at OGN had not told him to do so. Anyone that values their job knows not to tell the public about private company information, but perhaps he doesn't value the job if he can't cast Proleague... Either way, he's not being chastised for spreading misinformation as KeSPA claims, they pimp slapped him for telling the truth and revealing that KeSPA is making another power play.
Totally agree! As it stands now for me, Doa had a valid point and KeSPA is now trying to pour oil on troubled water. Not even sure if we would have an English broadcast without him now. KeSPA (?) just registered the twitch account today!! Other organisations would have done so way in advance if they had any plans to do so...
Edit: phuzi0n's post is exactly what I think.
Don't really see how the content of the OP differs from the content of DoA's, except that this one says nothing about why is the negotiation period extended, ie what are the " minor differences". If DoA revealed too much in saying the reason for this whole mess, which would be the scheduling problem that he described, then he is not to blame. This just shows how good they are at communicating, since a message that basically contains no information will probably ease the minds of many.
On December 07 2012 23:07 Yorbon wrote: I guess in favor of relations between ogn and kespa, doa had to be corrected in some way, even if only for keeping up appearances to the foreign scene. These 'negotiations' seem to not go too smooth. I really hope a decent english cast will become available.
On December 07 2012 23:07 monx wrote: Funny about this is people blaming Doa and defending Kespa. Get your shit straight people...the enemy is Kespa...for christ sake
No, that's not funny at all. Funny is how people fail to see the political aspects of these messages and keep thinking in black and white. Or actually it's not even funny, it's frustrating.
No surprise, most teenagers are stupid. This site is full of them.
On December 07 2012 23:07 monx wrote: Funny about this is people blaming Doa and defending Kespa. Get your shit straight people...the enemy is Kespa...for christ sake
Won´t watch ProLeague. KEspa Teams will fall to LoL. EG.JD nuff said.
KEspA is living off the players and coaches success and are not contributing to it in any way. They had their time when professional businessmen were needed to organize a league and Sponsorships, just someone to set the rules and make Mr. McMoneysack to trust in their busines model. Made Samsung feel the need to sponsor ProTeams to make LG feel uncomfortable, SKT1 need to spread Computers and the need for internet onm their own sake.
They needed Television studios and TV Broadcasting. Something wich is obsolete today. Anyone can stream! what you need? PC, Copy of SC2 and fast internet. Done. Even korean players favor monthly payments, streaming revenue and unshared prizemoney over a bunkbed in a tiny appartment playing 16hours a day for food.
All right. I'm still glad Doa made the thread because at least we have a response and confirmation that their will be an english broadcast. I still can't shake the feeling something is fishy though, it seems extremely late to be figuring things out like this no? It starts tomorrow. Any other tournament small to big we know at least 2 weeks in advance if not months who the casters will be.
On December 07 2012 22:36 Martijn wrote: That's so warped.. If DoA hadn't made his thread and people wouldn't have reacted, odds are he wouldn't have been casting and we wouldn't have had an English stream. As far as DoA concerned he most certainly wasn't going to be casting when he posted.
There is no logic in what you are saying at all. At the time he wrote that, he thought wasn't going to be casting. Twelve hours later, the arrangement between OGN and Kespa could have been made for him to cast the opening rounds as a temporary solution while the negotiations were still going on. Or come to a different arrangement and have somebody else do it. You CHOOSE to assume that no solution would be found or arrangement made, based on what exactly?
You also CHOOSE to believe things changed because of the thread Doa posted on teamliquid. Whereas a more obvious reason could be that it's because it's logical that OGN (who are still interested in doing the broadcast) would offer it as an easiest temporary solution while the negotiations were going once it became clear that the problems couldn't be resolved before the opening match.
In fact, if there was suddenly no English stream for the opening games, Kespa would have felt the exact same public pressure anyway (probably worse). So if they were already resolved to having no English stream because of the delay in negotiations, as you appear to believe, then Doa's thread wouldn't have suddenly changed their mind.
On December 07 2012 22:36 Martijn wrote: As of right now, as far as I've read, nobody has said anything about what is considered as "opening day matches" and how long this solution will last. That is reason for concern. If DoA comes in and posts, yeah, I'll be casting until Kespa gets whatever resources they need or Kespa guarantees as much, great /end thread
But all of that is their internal issue. Let them handle it, or don't handle it, and react when/if they don't. So far, you've missed nothing, you're just making assumptions about could, maybe, happen in the future.
DoA isn't the only commentator in the world, and doesn't take part in the negotiations so that what he says would always be accurate, or be as accurate the next day, or in two days as positions change. Even if he says that he won't be casting at all shouldn't be a rational reason to believe that there will be no English stream. He said he wouldn't be casting, and now it turns out he is. He said OGN wouldn't broadcast it, and now they are.
So if he writes a new one and says something else tonight (such as that they will only cast opening games for example), would it be more reasonable to kneejerk-react to what one person says is going on, or just wait and see what actually ends up happening and what the official sources say and THEN react?
How many casters do you think we have in Korea? You try getting someone a VISA in 2 days. It's a damn small pond, a good chunk are casting for GOM and certainly wouldn't cast for KESPA. Until they find someone to commit and fly them over, there is no alternative and even then who knows who they'll get. Most of us wouldn't be willing to give up everything and fly out to Korea on short notice.
Yeah people would've been upset if there had been no English stream day 1, so if nothing else it's great that we have a stream on day 1 following DoAs thread. Do you honestly think they told DoA "yeah, OGN won't be streaming Proleague, but it's cool, we'll just hand you to Kespa"? Obviously nothing was planned or we wouldn't get stuck with a "gathering resources" statement.
There being an English stream is a concern for the Starcraft 2 community. It is a mistake not to ease those concerns and it's a mistake not to voice those concerns.
As of right now, we have an opening day English stream and the promise that an attempt to gather "resources" for an English stream some time in the future will be made. The message we should be sending is try harder and make certain there won't be periods without English streams.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information.
Wow KEPSA... Not even willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. There are less brutal ways of saying the same thing that don't reinforce the image you have of being a completely self-centred heartless organization. Especially for an organization whose power has waned, you'd think they want to be more polite!
You know Doa probably gave the correct information but it just sounded harsh on Kespa/OGN because it was very personal to him.
You also know how Korean reports are. They'll try and burn the other guy as much as possible while making themselves look righteous. Even if it means going out of their way and changing the original plan. Look at all the drama during Slayers. How many times did the situation look one way until the other party talked?
I think if Doa didn't speak out this actually might not have happened as quickly as it have.
The thing was about to start in a day i would be concern if negotiations were still undergoing too. I wonder who is playing balls here and what for . If things had not worked out who would have provided the english stream they wont ask gom would they.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information.
Wow KEPSA... Not even willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. There are less brutal ways of saying the same thing that don't reinforce the image you have of being a completely self-centred heartless organization. Especially for an organization whose power has waned, you'd think they want to be more polite!
One-sided misinformation no less. If only he'd given us both sides of the misinformation! We could have been misinformated in a non-biased way!
I am guessing DoA won't be casting that then ? I wonder how in such short timenotice they will find a descent english caster. Also i don't see why DoA get's all the flame when i have no doubt that he just posted on what was told to him, and that in fact even though this post looks Intelligent and well thought off Kespa itself is utter chaos in wich so far everything DoA posted seems to be confirmed by Kespa itself.
It amazes me, how people can say things like "without Doa's post we probably wouldn't have english stream at all" when the ORIGINAL ISSUE was that Kespa wanted to have ENGLISH ONLY stream with FREE HD and VODs....
imo there was a little bit of struggle because OGN didn't want to lose money from paid HD and VODs. That's understandable. Kespa wants to reach out to foreign viewers and they don't want to have fee based stream. That's also understandable. There is no "enemy". In the end, it actually worked for the best for us - foreign viewers. We will get FREE HD and VODs for ALL Proleague matches. Weekends will probably still be OGN feed anyway.
The only problem I see here is that we are discovering this now, few hours before the PL actually starts.
I wish some people would just stop looking for drama, shut up and enjoy the games -.-
On December 07 2012 23:41 Lysanias wrote: I am guessing DoA won't be casting that then ? I wonder how in such short timenotice they will find a descent english caster. Also i don't see why DoA get's all the flame when i have no doubt that he just posted on what was told to him, and that in fact even though this post looks Intelligent and well thought off Kespa itself is utter chaos.
Because they are not professionals.
When a deal breaks down between two companies you immediately go out with a press release explaining the situation, what it means, what they will plan to do instead. This also relates internally, why whas there such missunderstandings regarding the situation? Why wasn't the staff involved in this informed on what had happend and what they were suppose to say if they would be interviewed.
So many levels of this that is plain wrong, And yes, I agree that DOA made a mistake but so did practically everyone else in Kespa and OGN as well. To blame DOA and say that he is the sole cause of this misinformation is just laughable.
On December 07 2012 23:31 Martijn wrote: How many casters do you think we have in Korea? You try getting someone a VISA in 2 days. It's a damn small pond, a good chunk are casting for GOM and certainly wouldn't cast for KESPA. Until they find someone to commit and fly them over, there is no alternative and even then who knows who they'll get. Most of us wouldn't be willing to give up everything and fly out to Korea on short notice.
Having casters on-location in Korea isn't the only way to do things. It might not even be the most rational way to provide a stream to foreign audience, in my opinion at least. MLG could have been given the rights to do it. IEG might find someone to go to Korea afterall. OGN might still get to broadcast in English in the end. Nothing is decided yet, that's why they're negotiating in the first place.
And it's also why it's a bad idea to take partial information from some random point during negotiations as something conclusive, as the validity of such information can change within hours.
On December 07 2012 23:31 Martijn wrote: Yeah people would've been upset if there had been no English stream day 1, so if nothing else it's great that we have a stream on day 1 following DoAs thread. Do you honestly think they told DoA "yeah, OGN won't be streaming Proleague, but it's cool, we'll just hand you to Kespa"? Obviously nothing was planned or we wouldn't get stuck with a "gathering resources" statement.
Do you honestly think that they told DoA "hey, you, guy that made angry post about us and made us look bad, do us a favor and come commentate for us this one time"?
Obviously it went via OGN - Doa said himself that it was a "favor" from OGN, not him personally. And yes, it makes perfect sense for OGN to step in as one of the parties that was interested in providing the cast in the first place. This way, they offered a solution to prevent a PR disaster of not having an opening matchday streamed, something that their rival - IEG - couldn't do.
It certainly wouldn't be constructive for OGN to just sit on their asses and do nothing until the agreement is reached. Nor it would be beneficial to any party linked to broadcasting the Proleague to have no English stream on the opening day. Of course OGN would do what they can to prevent it as an interested party.
On December 07 2012 23:31 Martijn wrote: As of right now, we have an opening day English stream and the promise that an attempt to gather "resources" for an English stream some time in the future will be made. The message we should be sending is try harder and make certain there won't be periods without English streams.
Try harder compared to what? There have been no periods without English streams. The only reason this discussion exists is because of a leak that shouldn't have happened. OGN has not yet announced anything about their future regarding English broadcast.
On December 07 2012 23:51 Integra wrote: When a deal breaks down between two companies you immediately go out with a press release explaining the situation, what it means, what they will plan to do instead.
There is no indication that the deal broke down at any point as of yet though.
On December 07 2012 23:41 Lysanias wrote: I am guessing DoA won't be casting that then ? I wonder how in such short timenotice they will find a descent english caster. Also i don't see why DoA get's all the flame when i have no doubt that he just posted on what was told to him, and that in fact even though this post looks Intelligent and well thought off Kespa itself is utter chaos.
Because they are not professionals.
When a deal breaks down between two companies you immediately go out with a press release explaining the situation, what it means, what they will plan to do instead. This also relates internally, why whas there such missunderstandings regarding the situation? Why wasn't the staff involved in this informed on what had happend and what they were suppose to say if they would be interviewed.
So many levels of this that is plain wrong, And yes, I agree that DOA made a mistake but so did practically everyone else in Kespa and OGN as well. To blame DOA and say that he is the sole cause of this misinformation is just laughable.
That is indeed the western way of doing things (mostly), they are how ever Korean and things go different there.
On December 07 2012 23:41 Lysanias wrote: I am guessing DoA won't be casting that then ? I wonder how in such short timenotice they will find a descent english caster. Also i don't see why DoA get's all the flame when i have no doubt that he just posted on what was told to him, and that in fact even though this post looks Intelligent and well thought off Kespa itself is utter chaos.
Because they are not professionals.
When a deal breaks down between two companies you immediately go out with a press release explaining the situation, what it means, what they will plan to do instead. This also relates internally, why whas there such missunderstandings regarding the situation? Why wasn't the staff involved in this informed on what had happend and what they were suppose to say if they would be interviewed.
So many levels of this that is plain wrong, And yes, I agree that DOA made a mistake but so did practically everyone else in Kespa and OGN as well. To blame DOA and say that he is the sole cause of this misinformation is just laughable.
That is indeed the western way of doing things (mostly), they are how ever Korean and things go different there.
Problem is that their market in this case is the western (us) and to avoid conflicts they better adapt to a different approach, if you are speaking the truth and not just talking nonesens that is.
So what i learned from this is that MLG is the obama of e-sports. Either you love it or everything is their fault no matter what and they are literally esports hitler. Baseless finger pointing, the vehicle of esports.
To those saying there's no actual difference between Kespa's statement and doa's statement, and therefore Kespa shouldn't call out doa for misinformation - I think there are differences. 1) doa said it was a done deal that there will be no English cast from OGN, when in fact negotiations were still going on. 2) doa said Kespa approached OGN a week ago and announced that they would be sending a 3rd english caster, while Kespa now says that it had been in talks with OGN and IEG based on mutually shared business goals like avoiding cannibalization etc. the big thing is that doa all but blamed Kespa for a breakdown in talks, when in fact no such thing had occurred. I'm really surprised that people are missing this point and then claiming that doa's statement did not differ from Kespa's on the facts.
So DoA, one of the most honest and trustworthy people in the SC2 scene posts an assessment of the situation that doesn't actually conflict with the one that Kespa posts. You know, Kespa, the big bad bully of esports. Why exactly are we taking Kespa's side over DoA's again?
On December 08 2012 00:08 Mikau wrote: So DoA, one of the most honest and trustworthy people in the SC2 scene posts an assessment of the situation that doesn't actually conflict with the one that Kespa posts. You know, Kespa, the big bad bully of esports. Why exactly are we taking Kespa's side over DoA's again?
On December 07 2012 23:41 Lysanias wrote: I am guessing DoA won't be casting that then ? I wonder how in such short timenotice they will find a descent english caster. Also i don't see why DoA get's all the flame when i have no doubt that he just posted on what was told to him, and that in fact even though this post looks Intelligent and well thought off Kespa itself is utter chaos.
Because they are not professionals.
When a deal breaks down between two companies you immediately go out with a press release explaining the situation, what it means, what they will plan to do instead. This also relates internally, why whas there such missunderstandings regarding the situation? Why wasn't the staff involved in this informed on what had happend and what they were suppose to say if they would be interviewed.
So many levels of this that is plain wrong, And yes, I agree that DOA made a mistake but so did practically everyone else in Kespa and OGN as well. To blame DOA and say that he is the sole cause of this misinformation is just laughable.
That is indeed the western way of doing things (mostly), they are how ever Korean and things go different there.
Problem is that their market in this case is the western (us) and to avoid conflicts they better adapt to a different approach, if you are speaking the truth and not just talking nonesens that is.
I am not sure if we are "there" market tbh, they might want to have a slice of the pie but there focus proberly will remain in Korea. It's also rather irrelivant considering it's between korean party's, in wich one happen to have a foreign employe.
On December 07 2012 23:41 Lysanias wrote: I am guessing DoA won't be casting that then ? I wonder how in such short timenotice they will find a descent english caster. Also i don't see why DoA get's all the flame when i have no doubt that he just posted on what was told to him, and that in fact even though this post looks Intelligent and well thought off Kespa itself is utter chaos.
Because they are not professionals.
When a deal breaks down between two companies you immediately go out with a press release explaining the situation, what it means, what they will plan to do instead. This also relates internally, why whas there such missunderstandings regarding the situation? Why wasn't the staff involved in this informed on what had happend and what they were suppose to say if they would be interviewed.
So many levels of this that is plain wrong, And yes, I agree that DOA made a mistake but so did practically everyone else in Kespa and OGN as well. To blame DOA and say that he is the sole cause of this misinformation is just laughable.
That is indeed the western way of doing things (mostly), they are how ever Korean and things go different there.
Problem is that their market in this case is the western (us) and to avoid conflicts they better adapt to a different approach, if you are speaking the truth and not just talking nonesens that is.
I am not sure if we are "there" market tbh, they might want to have a slice of the pie but there focus proberly will remain in Korea. It's also rather irrelivant considering it's between korean party's, in wich one happen to have a foreign employe.
focus or not, they did release a service that was meant for the western world to diverse their company outside Korea. Of course its relevant, IF kespa would had done what I just typed above none of this missinformation would had happened in the first place. Furher, I strongly don't believe in that Korea has some culture that forbidds them from having internal meetings regarding what their goals are and how to plan strategies
Jeez, just throwing DOA under the bus hard. From this statement it seems what he wrote was fairly accurate. That OGN will NOT be doing their own english commentary despite having already done so for proleague. And that's exactly what this statement just said as well. O_o
And then just wait and see. Which echoes what DOA finished off his post with as well. -_-
Honestly this seems like it was entirely a response to the disappointment of the community following DOA's statement. Either way it seems like their should have been more communication and just dumping this all on Doa's shoulders is completely unfair, but actually just typical Kespa. It's never Kespa's fault, always someone else's.
So what does that post mean except confirm exactly everything DoA said? Nothing. Kespa playing on words, trying to look nice and people are buying it. Sigh. Very sad that there won't be an english cast.
I still don't like KeSPA, in knowledge of their previous antics earlier this year. If history has told us anything, they're probably playing the words finely enough while bashing DoA at the same time. I feel a bit sad for DoA since he really wanted to cast in Korea too. After an honest mistake like that though, it may be a bit more difficult for him to find casting jobs as he most likely will not be casting the English broadcast. It'd be a long stretch, but I don't see it happening.
Base on the respond from Kespa, I see Kespa is trying to provide free vods on youtube. People assumed OGN will be doing all the English broadcasting for PL, therefore were confused about there won't be any English stream. However, there is some strange move by Kespa sending their own caster to OGN's cast team.
Nonetheless, English live stream and free vods are all we needed to know.
On December 08 2012 00:08 Doodsmack wrote: To those saying there's no actual difference between Kespa's statement and doa's statement, and therefore Kespa shouldn't call out doa for misinformation - I think there are differences. 1) doa said it was a done deal that there will be no English cast from OGN, when in fact negotiations were still going on. 2) doa said Kespa approached OGN a week ago and announced that they would be sending a 3rd english caster, while Kespa now says that it had been in talks with OGN and IEG based on mutually shared business goals like avoiding cannibalization etc. the big thing is that doa all but blamed Kespa for a breakdown in talks, when in fact no such thing had occurred. I'm really surprised that people are missing this point and then claiming that doa's statement did not differ from Kespa's on the facts.
Just want to give my post more visibility since people continue to say that there was no difference between the Kespa and doa statements lol. Can someone please refute my points. Kespa has not said there will be no OGN English broadcast for PL. they've said there won't be one until negotiations are finalized. DoA on the other hand claimed there never will be one.
On December 07 2012 23:31 Martijn wrote: How many casters do you think we have in Korea? You try getting someone a VISA in 2 days. It's a damn small pond, a good chunk are casting for GOM and certainly wouldn't cast for KESPA. Until they find someone to commit and fly them over, there is no alternative and even then who knows who they'll get. Most of us wouldn't be willing to give up everything and fly out to Korea on short notice.
Having casters on-location in Korea isn't the only way to do things. It might not even be the most rational way to provide a stream to foreign audience, in my opinion at least. MLG could have been given the rights to do it. IEG might find someone to go to Korea afterall. OGN might still get to broadcast in English in the end. Nothing is decided yet, that's why they're negotiating in the first place.
And it's also why it's a bad idea to take partial information from some random point during negotiations as something conclusive, as the validity of such information can change within hours.
On December 07 2012 23:31 Martijn wrote: Yeah people would've been upset if there had been no English stream day 1, so if nothing else it's great that we have a stream on day 1 following DoAs thread. Do you honestly think they told DoA "yeah, OGN won't be streaming Proleague, but it's cool, we'll just hand you to Kespa"? Obviously nothing was planned or we wouldn't get stuck with a "gathering resources" statement.
Do you honestly think that they told DoA "hey, you, guy that made angry post about us and made us look bad, do us a favor and come commentate for us this one time"?
Obviously it went via OGN - Doa said himself that it was a "favor" from OGN, not him personally. And yes, it makes perfect sense for OGN to step in as one of the parties that was interested in providing the cast in the first place. This way, they offered a solution to prevent a PR disaster of not having an opening matchday streamed, something that their rival - IEG - couldn't do.
It certainly wouldn't be constructive for OGN to just sit on their asses and do nothing until the agreement is reached. Nor it would be beneficial to any party linked to broadcasting the Proleague to have no English stream on the opening day. Of course OGN would do what they can to prevent it as an interested party.
On December 07 2012 23:31 Martijn wrote: As of right now, we have an opening day English stream and the promise that an attempt to gather "resources" for an English stream some time in the future will be made. The message we should be sending is try harder and make certain there won't be periods without English streams.
Try harder compared to what? There have been no periods without English streams. The only reason this discussion exists is because of a leak that shouldn't have happened. OGN has not yet announced anything about their future regarding English broadcast.
On December 07 2012 23:51 Integra wrote: When a deal breaks down between two companies you immediately go out with a press release explaining the situation, what it means, what they will plan to do instead.
There is no indication that the deal broke down at any point as of yet though.
An on sight production is always going to be better than a restream. I've done plenty of events to state that as a fact. The principle of approaching a state from its last known state is simply dead-reckoning. It's the best approach to predictive handling there is.
There's a foreigner team in proleague now. If there's no live stream, less people will watch which means less exposure to the sponsors. If you have international sponsors, they're not going to be happy with a Korean stream or a do-it-yourself from home production. The whole "mailing the sponsors" meme doesn't exist because it's not effective.
The PR disaster of not having a day 1 stream would've hurt Kespa and put even more pressure on Kespa to work out their differences with OGN. It would've served OGN well in a strictly selfish manner. OGN was supposed to host the English stream, we all knew that. Then something happened and OGN was no longer allowed to. What this something is, none of us know. Proleague went from English stream by OGN, to no English stream by OGN. That's certainly something we should be made aware of. Clearly there was no alternative ready, or they wouldn't have DoA/Monte casting the opening day matches.
For some reason you're assuming between tomorrow and the next day, some alternative will pop up that'll be just as good as the English stream we would've had from OGN. Yet there is no indication anywhere for this to be true. Surely that's reason to be concerned. Most certainly a restream won't cut it.
OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information.
Holy fuck, they mad. Maybe if they had their shit together and weren't acting like pigs in the first place, DoA wouldn't have had to have made a post that, frankly, very accurately described the situation at the time.
OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information.
Holy fuck, they mad. Maybe if they had their shit together and weren't acting like pigs in the first place, DoA wouldn't have had to have made a post that, frankly, very accurately described the situation at the time.
Since when is spreading baseless false rumors considered, very accurately describtion of the situation at the time.
People complaining about Kespa probably have never worked in real business for very long. DoA fucked up, it was obvious when he posted about it that it was full more of emotion than anything (multiple threads spanning a couple different forums). Oh well, he got his hand slapped, maybe he'll learn his lesson. Keep your issues in house.
You know before I was miffed that there wasn't going to be proleague done in English because Doa had said that ogn wasn't getting to do it.
Now I'm downright angry that Kespa is trying to play the "we still planned on having english casts just not with OGN" card because CLEARLY having this come up 2 days before the games means that this could not have been publicized earlier and of course Doa was in the right to make sure his ass is covered when he doesn't cast the games on saturday.
Meanwhile a day later Kespa comes in and tries to lump the blame on Doa, then tries to act like the english casting is still going to be high quality. This is quite similar to the issue when Kespa tried to boycott the GSL by having none of their players be a part of that first season. Frankly Kespa is really not garnering any foreign fans, but lets' be honest. Were not here for Kespa, and we never were. We are here to see some awesome proleague.
On December 08 2012 00:51 vesicular wrote: People complaining about Kespa probably have never worked in real business for very long. DoA fucked up, it was obvious when he posted about it that it was full more of emotion than anything (multiple threads spanning a couple different forums). Oh well, he got his hand slapped, maybe he'll learn his lesson. Keep your issues in house.
So much misinformation from one fact. Doa said there will be no english cast from ogn, NOT no english period. The information was there that stated kespa will have english cast in one form or another. People making drama out of nothing, as if sc2 people loved ogn since day one
On December 07 2012 23:31 Martijn wrote: How many casters do you think we have in Korea? You try getting someone a VISA in 2 days. It's a damn small pond, a good chunk are casting for GOM and certainly wouldn't cast for KESPA. Until they find someone to commit and fly them over, there is no alternative and even then who knows who they'll get. Most of us wouldn't be willing to give up everything and fly out to Korea on short notice.
Having casters on-location in Korea isn't the only way to do things. It might not even be the most rational way to provide a stream to foreign audience, in my opinion at least. MLG could have been given the rights to do it. IEG might find someone to go to Korea afterall. OGN might still get to broadcast in English in the end. Nothing is decided yet, that's why they're negotiating in the first place.
And it's also why it's a bad idea to take partial information from some random point during negotiations as something conclusive, as the validity of such information can change within hours.
On December 07 2012 23:31 Martijn wrote: Yeah people would've been upset if there had been no English stream day 1, so if nothing else it's great that we have a stream on day 1 following DoAs thread. Do you honestly think they told DoA "yeah, OGN won't be streaming Proleague, but it's cool, we'll just hand you to Kespa"? Obviously nothing was planned or we wouldn't get stuck with a "gathering resources" statement.
Do you honestly think that they told DoA "hey, you, guy that made angry post about us and made us look bad, do us a favor and come commentate for us this one time"?
Obviously it went via OGN - Doa said himself that it was a "favor" from OGN, not him personally. And yes, it makes perfect sense for OGN to step in as one of the parties that was interested in providing the cast in the first place. This way, they offered a solution to prevent a PR disaster of not having an opening matchday streamed, something that their rival - IEG - couldn't do.
It certainly wouldn't be constructive for OGN to just sit on their asses and do nothing until the agreement is reached. Nor it would be beneficial to any party linked to broadcasting the Proleague to have no English stream on the opening day. Of course OGN would do what they can to prevent it as an interested party.
On December 07 2012 23:31 Martijn wrote: As of right now, we have an opening day English stream and the promise that an attempt to gather "resources" for an English stream some time in the future will be made. The message we should be sending is try harder and make certain there won't be periods without English streams.
Try harder compared to what? There have been no periods without English streams. The only reason this discussion exists is because of a leak that shouldn't have happened. OGN has not yet announced anything about their future regarding English broadcast.
On December 07 2012 23:51 Integra wrote: When a deal breaks down between two companies you immediately go out with a press release explaining the situation, what it means, what they will plan to do instead.
There is no indication that the deal broke down at any point as of yet though.
An on sight production is always going to be better than a restream. I've done plenty of events to state that as a fact. The principle of approaching a state from its last known state is simply dead-reckoning. It's the best approach to predictive handling there is.
There's a foreigner team in proleague now. If there's no live stream, less people will watch which means less exposure to the sponsors. If you have international sponsors, they're not going to be happy with a Korean stream or a do-it-yourself from home production. The whole "mailing the sponsors" meme doesn't exist because it's not effective.
The PR disaster of not having a day 1 stream would've hurt Kespa and put even more pressure on Kespa to work out their differences with OGN. It would've served OGN well in a strictly selfish manner. OGN was supposed to host the English stream, we all knew that. Then something happened and OGN was no longer allowed to. What this something is, none of us know. Proleague went from English stream by OGN, to no English stream by OGN. That's certainly something we should be made aware of. Clearly there was no alternative ready, or they wouldn't have DoA/Monte casting the opening day matches.
For some reason you're assuming between tomorrow and the next day, some alternative will pop up that'll be just as good as the English stream we would've had from OGN. Yet there is no indication anywhere for this to be true. Surely that's reason to be concerned. Most certainly a restream won't cut it.
Obviously you're not going to get any "indications" of anything beforehand, because that information is not for the public eye. The public will get announcements when there is something to be announced, not indications or status updates about internal issues.
I'm not the one dealing in assumptions here. I just have no reason to be upset because, as a spectator, nothing has been done (or not done) that would aggravate me. There have been assumptions on the other side, based on vague speculations of what could have happened, what's happening, and what might happen.
As for the stream, for the most American or European events (the ones you attended), an on sight production is the better choice. For an event airing at Korean time of choice and ungodly hours for most other countries, with a live audience and players that the English commentators can't really interact with, a well produced restream at a more convenient time would be a better choice for most people, as the hardcore viewers would tune in to the Korean stream anyway.
I'm not saying it's the best or only solution, but it is one possible avenue that could be pursued.
A three party consortium? Really? I feel like KeSPA is rooted in a ridiculous amount of bureaucracy.
However, I am glad they gave us a timely response concerning the situation and that we will still have English broadcasts.
Poor DoA was probably just trying to do the right thing, but his OP was a bit biased. I'm glad he didn't get in trouble or anything, other than having to apologize.
On December 08 2012 00:53 Eyzo wrote: You know before I was miffed that there wasn't going to be proleague done in English because Doa had said that ogn wasn't getting to do it.
Now I'm downright angry that Kespa is trying to play the "we still planned on having english casts just not with OGN" card because CLEARLY having this come up 2 days before the games means that this could not have been publicized earlier and of course Doa was in the right to make sure his ass is covered when he doesn't cast the games on saturday.
Meanwhile a day later Kespa comes in and tries to lump the blame on Doa, then tries to act like the english casting is still going to be high quality. This is quite similar to the issue when Kespa tried to boycott the GSL by having none of their players be a part of that first season. Frankly Kespa is really not garnering any foreign fans, but lets' be honest. Were not here for Kespa, and we never were. We are here to see some awesome proleague.
This whole mess is because DoA leaked some half-assed information. Negotiations are ongoing and English-language broadcasts were never in jeopardy.
Personally I like the way KeSPA's been handling things since the SC2 transition.
ITT People being wrong about the situation, trying not to admit it. it's ok guys, you made mistakes, you spouted bullshit opinions, now forget about it and move along.
I still don't see why DoA is getting all the flak for. He stated that kespa pulled the casting rights from OGN which is accurate. He didn't advocate a boycott or call out for any drastic actions otherwise.
Yes the post was a tad heated and yes DoA could have been more concise that there would be no english stream from OGN but beyond that Im not really seeing the misinformation here.
Obviously one should consider DoA's statements biased but to assume that kespa is the valiant defender of all things good and true is kinda naive.
On December 08 2012 01:16 rtem wrote: I still don't see why DoA is getting all the flak for. He stated that kespa pulled the casting rights from OGN which is accurate.
The way I see it is that OGN themselves pulled the plug on their English stream. We won't know for sure but that's my feeling.
first these draconic monsters screw up the English casting for PL. THEN they abuse Doa? Someone needs to send Bruce Willis over their with a Samurai Sword to put these thugs in their place.
On December 08 2012 00:53 Eyzo wrote: You know before I was miffed that there wasn't going to be proleague done in English because Doa had said that ogn wasn't getting to do it.
Now I'm downright angry that Kespa is trying to play the "we still planned on having english casts just not with OGN" card because CLEARLY having this come up 2 days before the games means that this could not have been publicized earlier and of course Doa was in the right to make sure his ass is covered when he doesn't cast the games on saturday.
Meanwhile a day later Kespa comes in and tries to lump the blame on Doa, then tries to act like the english casting is still going to be high quality. This is quite similar to the issue when Kespa tried to boycott the GSL by having none of their players be a part of that first season. Frankly Kespa is really not garnering any foreign fans, but lets' be honest. Were not here for Kespa, and we never were. We are here to see some awesome proleague.
Well, of course they were planning their own english broadcasts all along. In the end - that was (and afaik still is) actually the issue between kespa and ogn. You are imo missing the cause and consequence.
Cause - Kespa wants their own stream/casters also for weekend matches (that are btw free hd and vods). Consequence - English broadcasts from OGN in jeopardy.
Still get frustrated just reading any statements KeSPA releases. This confirms exactly what DoA said, they're just trying to spin it to save some face. The eight.BiT plans to immediately respond to the spread of KeSPA covering their asses and not watch.
On December 08 2012 01:16 rtem wrote: I still don't see why DoA is getting all the flak for. He stated that kespa pulled the casting rights from OGN which is accurate. He didn't advocate a boycott or call out for any drastic actions otherwise.
Yes the post was a tad heated and yes DoA could have been more concise that there would be no english stream from OGN but beyond that Im not really seeing the misinformation here.
Obviously one should consider DoA's statements biased but to assume that kespa is the valiant defender of all things good and true is kinda naive.
It's simple really, when you're working with a business, you don't air your dirty laundry in public. This goes doubly when you have no leverage.
On December 08 2012 01:19 Fyodor wrote: The way I see it is that OGN themselves pulled the plug on their English stream. We won't know for sure but that's my feeling.
Well I guess that does change the nature of the statement assuming DoA knew about it but even so its deep in the real of speculation. For all we know this could be a business decision from either side.
OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information.
Holy fuck, they mad. Maybe if they had their shit together and weren't acting like pigs in the first place, DoA wouldn't have had to have made a post that, frankly, very accurately described the situation at the time.
Since when is spreading baseless false rumors considered, very accurately describtion of the situation at the time.
You just quoted the KeSPA article; you didn't actually describe why his description was baseless or false. I bet yesterday you didn't consider his post baseless or false.
DoA never said there would never be an English broadcast. He said that OGN and KeSPA had a disagreement and that as such there were no plans for an English broadcast. Do you see the difference?
On December 08 2012 01:16 rtem wrote: I still don't see why DoA is getting all the flak for. He stated that kespa pulled the casting rights from OGN which is accurate. He didn't advocate a boycott or call out for any drastic actions otherwise.
Yes the post was a tad heated and yes DoA could have been more concise that there would be no english stream from OGN but beyond that Im not really seeing the misinformation here.
Obviously one should consider DoA's statements biased but to assume that kespa is the valiant defender of all things good and true is kinda naive.
Assuming they are the spawn of the devil and everything they do is evil is equally naive.
Considering how drama-driven ESPORTS has become, you don't need to be a genius to figure what's gonna happen when you throw fuel to the fire. The shitstorm and cospiracy theories that followed DOA's post is a good display you can easily get what you want and mislead with one sided info (of ONGOING negotiations) without having to actively do much. DOA's "I am not going to ask you to boycott, buut" wording doesn't help either.
OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information.
Holy fuck, they mad. Maybe if they had their shit together and weren't acting like pigs in the first place, DoA wouldn't have had to have made a post that, frankly, very accurately described the situation at the time.
Since when is spreading baseless false rumors considered, very accurately describtion of the situation at the time.
You just quoted the KeSPA article; you didn't actually describe why his description was baseless or false. I bet yesterday you didn't consider his post baseless or false.
DoA never said there would never be an English broadcast. He said that OGN and KeSPA had a disagreement and that as such there were no plans for an English broadcast. Do you see the difference?
What DOA said is that there are no more plans of an OGN English broadcast.
But that didn't stop people from "deducing" there are no more English broadcasts. Or that KeSPA is throwing OGN under the bus to favor MLG.
OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information.
Holy fuck, they mad. Maybe if they had their shit together and weren't acting like pigs in the first place, DoA wouldn't have had to have made a post that, frankly, very accurately described the situation at the time.
Since when is spreading baseless false rumors considered, very accurately describtion of the situation at the time.
You just quoted the KeSPA article; you didn't actually describe why his description was baseless or false. I bet yesterday you didn't consider his post baseless or false.
DoA never said there would never be an English broadcast. He said that OGN and KeSPA had a disagreement and that as such there were no plans for an English broadcast. Do you see the difference?
What DOA said is that there are no more plans of an OGN English broadcast.
But that didn't stop people from "deducing" there are no more English broadcasts. Or that KeSPA is throwing OGN under the bus to favor MLG.
Well DOA deducted that last part himself if you remember.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
Which bullshit? It was a bit off, but KeSPA tries to make it seem like it's totally off, something which they obviously should do as a company. Truth is KeSPA is a bit ill-intentioned.
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
Which bullshit? It was a bit off, but KeSPA tries to make it seem like it's totally off, something which they obviously should do as a company. Truth is KeSPA is a bit ill-intentioned.
DoA is just an employee, he has nothing to say in this issue. Those people put money in, they will make the decision. DoA can't make any decision, nor should he comment on those decisions if he still wants to be an employee.
i don't see the rationale behind the aggressive wording of the 'doa part'. it doesn't do them any favors in the foreign community and only serves to spark more controversy.
'OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote an easily misunderstood post due to misunderstandings, has apologized and made a correction.'
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
Which bullshit? It was a bit off, but KeSPA tries to make it seem like it's totally off, something which they obviously should do as a company. Truth is KeSPA is a bit ill-intentioned.
DoA is just an employee, he has nothing to say in this issue. Those people put money in, they will make the decision. DoA can't make any decision, nor should he comment on those decisions if he still wants to be an employee.
Now you have a point. People behind the anonymity of a forum nick, just don´t realize Doa is not a nick. He is an employee, as anyone in their own job. You, as a employee dont talk about your boss or his partners in these terms:
"...but I'm frankly tired of KeSPA's lame ploys to try to keep control over something they never should have been in control if in the first place. " or "That's your choice and I don't have any business telling you not to watch a game and players that you love because of idiotic corporate politics that you aren't a part of and frankly don't deserve to be hurt by." or "Is there a possibility things might change? Possibly. If KeSPA feels enough pressure they might bend. " or "KeSPA has also been approaching english casters about the job, but so far none have accepted that I'm aware of. Not surprising"
You just don´t talk about the partners of your boss in these terms. Plain and simple.
Wow they really slammed DOA in that press release, I cringed while reading it. Not sure how necessary that was. Glad there's going to be an English broadcast though, hope things turn out okay for DOA.
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The association seeks to clear up some confusion regarding the international broadcast of the Proleague caused by misinformation from OnGameNet's English caster.
It's just a misunderstanding because of some confusion because someone was misinformed. Not really - the information DoA had was relatively accurate - OGN was going to do English casting, and then OGN wasn't going to do English casting.
Originally, the Proleague's English, international broadcast service was to be handled by OnGameNet and IEG, Sat/Sun and Mon/Tue respectively (with partial financial support for the English broadcast provided by the association). Additionally, for the sake of rebuilding esports and setting a foundation for continued growth, KeSPA, IEG, and OnGameNet were in talks to create a three party consortium in 2012, the year when international broadcasts began. By bundling the Starleague and Proleague, the goal was to prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services.
Y'know, if you all were less secretive in your decision making process, this would be less likely to happen. Also, the entire phrase "prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services" is utter and complete business buzzspeak. If you wanted to "create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services" you would be best served creating a consortium with GomTV - as they have the experience and trust in the International broadcast services arena. KeSPA, IEG, and OnGameNet are not as well known outside of Korea, and what it really sounds like is that "the old guard" are banding together to prevent competition between them so they can more effectively compete with others.
However, because of minor differences in stances between the three parties, it has been agreed to slightly extend the period of negotiations. Until a final agreement has been reached, OnGameNet's stance is that it will not broadcast in English during the weekend games of Proleague, and will only provide a clean feed of Proleague to IEG, the delivery agency.
So, your friend OGN is the one to blame, since they are making the decision not to create an English broadcast without an agreement. Who put forward the idea to extend the negotiations? Again, if things were slightly more transparent, might be less prone to misinformation. (Also can lend power to negotiations - I would think as a government agency, you would know this. Then again, government agency.)
OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information.
When wanting to work with another organization, and stating that you are still in negotiations, using this specific verbiage to address the reactions of one person could be a problem. The rumors themselves were not baseless - they were grounded in specific information that OGN was not doing English production. That is a fact, which you've now stated is only until a final agreement has been reached. The only reason it's one-sided is that you've been remarkably quiet about the Proleague towards the international audience. All of the "hype" has come from the name, from the history... remarkably little specific information is available. I can see a schedule that's been updated. Most of the rest of the official site (in English) hasn't been updated since 2010. It's not promising, and really, it reinforces the view that the International audience is an afterthought to KeSPA. These were not baseless rumors (see above). They may have been a result of incorrect information, but saying "distorted" information suggests (in the connotative sense) a deliberate twisting of information to support a specific view. In effect, your English translation is vaguely implying that DoA deliberately set out to hurt KeSPA. That's not the case.
Also, as you plan to respond to spreading baseless rumors and distorted information, where is the application process for me to become one of your redditor responders? Because you'll need an army of them, and with native English proficiency, to begin to even get noticed over there. (Or here, for that matter.) On second thought, a simpler question is "What social media consultants have you retained for this cause?"
All games of the The SK Planet StarCraft II Proleague 2012-13 season will be viewable on Twitch.TV (URL: en.twitch.tv/sc2proleague) beginning with opening day on December 8th. Negotiations are underway so that Live Streams and VODs will be viewable through youtube starting in the first half of 2013.
YAY! Except... what kind of negotiations do you need to do to upload the VODs to youtube? Are the rights issues that thorny? Blizzard would seem to be okay with it (not sure if they are monetizing such an agreement at this time - they might be, but negotiations would seem to be one sided in Blizzard's favor) judging by the amount of StarCraft content already on YouTube, and that neither Husky, TB, StarCrafts, etc have been hit with take down notices. So maybe the negotiations are between the association and consortium members for the consortium that you said early isn't quite there yet? You said you were in talks to create a consortium... apparently there is stress there, and that consortium is the source of the entire problem. Stress in the consortium negotiations means prolonged negotiations means OGN's internal messaging causes concern to their internal English speaking members, who express that concern, which causes great consternation from the wider global audience, which leads to what might be understood to be a typical governmental response with a KeSPA flavor.
Questions I'm pondering - when exactly did KeSPA approach MLG concerning English broadcast of the proleague? Who else are you approaching? Why isn't it a "bid" process, or maybe an auction? How are the negotiations going to form the consortium of KeSPA, IEG, and OGN? Have you considered, even for a moment, including GomTV in such negotiations? If they are truly to prevent market cannibalization and create synergy to stabilize the delivery of content, I would imagine you should involve all content generators in that market segment in negotiations to create such a consortium. (Or, more aptly, monopoly cartel.) It would allow you to distribute the market in a fair way, and cooperate to ensure that all production content delivered is at a specific standard.
...pondering deleting entire post - yes, I know KeSPA is unlikely to respond to this, and many other people may reply with negative reaction or a great deal of picking apart and such.
But hell, all I'm posting is my personal reaction and thoughts on it. If anyone actually replies to it with intelligent, reasoned information maybe I'll learn something. Or maybe not. I could be wrong in any of these points. I could be right. I think there are good questions though.
Just shows how little "doa" actully knows about buisness, and this is the best reason why noone should hire him again, if you have a problem you go to your superior, dont write up emo posts on the biggest public channels. get your facts straight son.
On December 07 2012 17:25 Soulrivers wrote: In light of this news, DoA was way too quick to write up that dooms-day post. He probably should have waited it out a bit more before drawing drastic conclusions.
DoA works for OGN. He was mad because his work was undercut by Kespa. If you read into the post, it kinda inferred that Kespa was doing it's own English broadcast and is playing hardball with OGN. He's mad, but he didn't say there would be NO english broadcast. He said essentially that HE wouldn't be doing the broadcast.
So many people with poor reading comprehension in this world. Get it through your skulls that DoA claimed the OGN-Kespa negotiation regarding an English cast had fallen through, and all but blamed Kespa for it. Kespa now reveals that negotiations were merely extended, AND ARE STILL ONGOING AS DOA HIMSELF NOW SAYS IN HIS CORRECTION WHERE HE ADMITS HE MISUNDERSTOOD. Therefore DoA gave incorrect information.
I'm sure the same people theorizing that Kespa is throwing DoA under the bus in order to cover up for its own mistake are the same ones who claimed yesterday that MLG had conspired with Kespa to push OGN out and secure the English cast for MLG. In some people's minds big companies are always guilty until proven innocent, even if there's no concrete evidence to go on - only a theoretical possibility. Just please understand that it doesn't do this community any good.
There's actually nothing in KeSPAs respose that refute the events that DoA published. Its just that he shouldn't have mixed his personal feelings about KeSPA in with the facts he presented. It would be unfortunate if KeSPA takes legal action for defamation against DoA. But I think the majority of the Starcraft community feel the same way about KeSPA.
Glad to see this worked out. I was skeptical at first because why would a business want to cut out 30-40% of their viewership because they didn't want to put out English commentary? It just didn't line up. Glad to see things were set straight though.
On December 08 2012 02:39 ShadowReaver wrote: There's actually nothing in KeSPAs respose that refute the events that DoA published. Its just that he shouldn't have mixed his personal feelings about KeSPA in with the facts he presented. It would be unfortunate if KeSPA takes legal action for defamation against DoA. But I think the majority of the Starcraft community feel the same way about KeSPA.
Lmfao how hard is it to understand the words you read? See my post above yours.
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I based the post I made on the information I was given. I never apologized to Kespa nor do I feel I did anything wrong itn making the thread.. I spoke today with IEG and took the post down after finding that my information wasn't totally accurate. Nothing more.
IEG seems to be legit in wanting to provide a good broadcast for the global scene and it's a shame things are off to a rough start. I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
Game on.
Thanks for the additional information, DoA. Looking forward to Proleague this weekend.
B/c whether or not he can be held responsible seems to be dependent on any confidentiality terms and agreements. If he didn't sign one then that's bad business sense by an organization like KESPA and OGN.
On December 08 2012 02:48 kc2siq wrote: Serious question, did DoA sign an NDA?
B/c whether or not he can be held responsible seems to be dependent on any confidentiality terms and agreements. If he didn't sign one then that's bad business sense by an organization like KESPA and OGN.
I want to provide some insight as an outsider with no real knowledge of what's happening behind the scenes.
1) KeSPA is in desperate need of a competent PR staffer specifically tasked with handling the Western audience. Notice I didn't say they need competent PR staff, because from the teaser on their site they definitely have some good folks already on board. I don't know anything about contract law in Korea, but it's real hard to do any publicity if you've got legal hooks in you - one bad step and you f'd everything up royally. But anyway, they need a Western PR person if that released statement is any indication - I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that some more adept translation could have made that look better. Cause that's some real harsh language to put out to your prospective customers.
2) DoA is the talent, he's not in charge of the business and any publicity he does for OGN or KeSPA is on his own, for good or bad. Which unfortunately in this day and age is potentially a lot - since KeSPA isn't really trying to reign in their publicity - yet - DoA has a lot of pull when speaking about what's going on, and a lot of easy ways to do it (posting in this thread, Twitter, etc etc). In his position, I would also have told TL that the OGN casts were shitcanned, but I would have used considerably softer language about KeSPA since they are a potential employer and being as a member of an extremely exclusive pool of candidates. Ouch dude. You're a public figure - take care of your image, e-sports is growing and you've got a leg up on a lot of people. Not just your image to the fans, but your image to the people with the money.
3) I'm excited about Proleague being a thing again. Go Stork!
On December 08 2012 02:39 Doodsmack wrote: So many people with poor reading comprehension in this world. Get it through your skulls that DoA claimed the OGN-Kespa negotiation regarding an English cast had fallen through, and all but blamed Kespa for it. Kespa now reveals that negotiations were merely extended, AND ARE STILL ONGOING AS DOA HIMSELF NOW SAYS IN HIS CORRECTION WHERE HE ADMITS HE MISUNDERSTOOD. Therefore DoA gave incorrect information.
I'm sure the same people theorizing that Kespa is throwing DoA under the bus in order to cover up for its own mistake are the same ones who claimed yesterday that MLG had conspired with Kespa to push OGN out and secure the English cast for MLG. In some people's minds big companies are always guilty until proven innocent, even if there's no concrete evidence to go on - only a theoretical possibility. Just please understand that it doesn't do this community any good.
Please learn to understand - KeSPA is not a big company. It's an official organ of the Ministry of Culture, Sports, and Tourism. Technically speaking, an NGO. It is not organized for efficiency. The official organization chart indicates that the actual gaming and organization of gaming is the smallest part of its functions, whereas the largest are marketing and legal.
OGN is not producing English broadcast for Proleague, in part because negotiations are being "extended" according to KeSPA. (KeSPA is likewise a single source, able to shade language and shape a statement to its own purposes.) Those negotiations, according to KeSPA, ARE NOT FOR ENGLISH BROADCASTS. Reading comprehension ftw. Those negotiations are for the formation of a consortium between KeSPA, IEG, and OGN, for the specific purposes stated in the KeSPA statement. There are still disagreements, thus the negotiations are extended. Until there is a finalized agreement, OGN has indicated they will not produce English broadcasts for PL. This is OGN exerting pressure on KeSPA/IEG during the negotiation process. Why, we don't know. Maybe IEG is balking, or maybe it's KeSPA, or maybe someone is asking too much of OGN. We don't know.
... but historically, I'm thinking that KeSPA is saying "This is how it will happen" and one or both of the other organizations are disagreeing over one or more items. So KeSPA says negotiations are extended - they are still talking to each other, someone trying to convince someone else that something is good for everything. We don't know who, what or where. But the consequence is OGN is not doing the PL English casts. Who told the foreign community this (with some emotional bias) was DoA - and only after that does the MLG doing English for PL come up. And that was what... the same week as the opening match?? Surely, MLG was in talks for months to do this. Which is why we heard about it this week.
TRANSPARENCY. Or hell, information. Getting it nailed down in advance, announcing things like this, it's good. We like information. It's our friends.
I don't really care if confidentiality-agreements were violated or not. While I understand, that this is something worth discussing, it's not the main issue (for me) here. I find it much more alarming, that they're still "negotiating" crucial broadcasting details so close to the start of the tournament. For an event of this calibre, stuff like that should have been sorted out weeks ago.
On December 08 2012 02:58 T-oastbro-T wrote: I don't really care if confidentiality-agreements were violated or not. While I understand, that this is something worth discussing, it's not the main issue (for me) here. I find it much more alarming, that they're still "negotiating" crucial broadcasting details so close to the start of the tournament. For an event of this calibre, stuff like that should have been sorted out weeks ago.
Re-read the KeSPA statement. They are not negotiating broadcasting details - the broadcasting details have been affected by larger negotiation.
I guess the OP can be updated, it will be DoA and MonteCristo casting this weekend:
erik lonnquist @ggDoA Will be casting proleague tomorrow and Sunday. After that it's all IEG. We'll have more SC2 at OGN before to long though... 8:04 AM - 7 Dez 12 · Details
On December 07 2012 17:24 Ruscour wrote: I hope they aren't hard on DoA for this, he was only doing right by the English community, something KeSPA/OGN/IEG/whoever don't have a clue how to do.
you mean he was talking bullshit and didn't know what was going on? and just made this thread cause he was mad for some reason?
Which bullshit? It was a bit off, but KeSPA tries to make it seem like it's totally off, something which they obviously should do as a company. Truth is KeSPA is a bit ill-intentioned.
DoA is just an employee, he has nothing to say in this issue. Those people put money in, they will make the decision. DoA can't make any decision, nor should he comment on those decisions if he still wants to be an employee.
Now you have a point. People behind the anonymity of a forum nick, just don´t realize Doa is not a nick. He is an employee, as anyone in their own job. You, as a employee dont talk about your boss or his partners in these terms:
"...but I'm frankly tired of KeSPA's lame ploys to try to keep control over something they never should have been in control if in the first place. " or "That's your choice and I don't have any business telling you not to watch a game and players that you love because of idiotic corporate politics that you aren't a part of and frankly don't deserve to be hurt by." or "Is there a possibility things might change? Possibly. If KeSPA feels enough pressure they might bend. " or "KeSPA has also been approaching english casters about the job, but so far none have accepted that I'm aware of. Not surprising"
You just don´t talk about the partners of your boss in these terms. Plain and simple.
Or you do. And that makes some people like you incomparably more than if you were a politically correct whitecollar speking in nothing but bizzspeak.
Obviously, there may troubles ahead for DoA for this - his employer is absolutely entitled to make these, probably even fire him. Doesn't change anything about me liking what he did.
On December 08 2012 02:58 T-oastbro-T wrote: I don't really care if confidentiality-agreements were violated or not. While I understand, that this is something worth discussing, it's not the main issue (for me) here. I find it much more alarming, that they're still "negotiating" crucial broadcasting details so close to the start of the tournament. For an event of this calibre, stuff like that should have been sorted out weeks ago.
Re-read the KeSPA statement. They are not negotiating broadcasting details - the broadcasting details have been affected by larger negotiation.
Be that as it may, some negotiations on whatever level seem to have been responsible for them having to "urgently put together the resources for an English broadcast", which is unfortunate.
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
On December 07 2012 17:17 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The association seeks to clear up some confusion regarding the international broadcast of the Proleague caused by misinformation from OnGameNet's English caster.
It's just a misunderstanding because of some confusion because someone was misinformed. Not really - the information DoA had was relatively accurate - OGN was going to do English casting, and then OGN wasn't going to do English casting.
Originally, the Proleague's English, international broadcast service was to be handled by OnGameNet and IEG, Sat/Sun and Mon/Tue respectively (with partial financial support for the English broadcast provided by the association). Additionally, for the sake of rebuilding esports and setting a foundation for continued growth, KeSPA, IEG, and OnGameNet were in talks to create a three party consortium in 2012, the year when international broadcasts began. By bundling the Starleague and Proleague, the goal was to prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services.
Y'know, if you all were less secretive in your decision making process, this would be less likely to happen. Also, the entire phrase "prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services" is utter and complete business buzzspeak. If you wanted to "create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services" you would be best served creating a consortium with GomTV - as they have the experience and trust in the International broadcast services arena. KeSPA, IEG, and OnGameNet are not as well known outside of Korea, and what it really sounds like is that "the old guard" are banding together to prevent competition between them so they can more effectively compete with others.
However, because of minor differences in stances between the three parties, it has been agreed to slightly extend the period of negotiations. Until a final agreement has been reached, OnGameNet's stance is that it will not broadcast in English during the weekend games of Proleague, and will only provide a clean feed of Proleague to IEG, the delivery agency.
So, your friend OGN is the one to blame, since they are making the decision not to create an English broadcast without an agreement. Who put forward the idea to extend the negotiations? Again, if things were slightly more transparent, might be less prone to misinformation. (Also can lend power to negotiations - I would think as a government agency, you would know this. Then again, government agency.)
OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information.
When wanting to work with another organization, and stating that you are still in negotiations, using this specific verbiage to address the reactions of one person could be a problem. The rumors themselves were not baseless - they were grounded in specific information that OGN was not doing English production. That is a fact, which you've now stated is only until a final agreement has been reached. The only reason it's one-sided is that you've been remarkably quiet about the Proleague towards the international audience. All of the "hype" has come from the name, from the history... remarkably little specific information is available. I can see a schedule that's been updated. Most of the rest of the official site (in English) hasn't been updated since 2010. It's not promising, and really, it reinforces the view that the International audience is an afterthought to KeSPA. These were not baseless rumors (see above). They may have been a result of incorrect information, but saying "distorted" information suggests (in the connotative sense) a deliberate twisting of information to support a specific view. In effect, your English translation is vaguely implying that DoA deliberately set out to hurt KeSPA. That's not the case.
Also, as you plan to respond to spreading baseless rumors and distorted information, where is the application process for me to become one of your redditor responders? Because you'll need an army of them, and with native English proficiency, to begin to even get noticed over there. (Or here, for that matter.) On second thought, a simpler question is "What social media consultants have you retained for this cause?"
All games of the The SK Planet StarCraft II Proleague 2012-13 season will be viewable on Twitch.TV (URL: en.twitch.tv/sc2proleague) beginning with opening day on December 8th. Negotiations are underway so that Live Streams and VODs will be viewable through youtube starting in the first half of 2013.
YAY! Except... what kind of negotiations do you need to do to upload the VODs to youtube? Are the rights issues that thorny? Blizzard would seem to be okay with it (not sure if they are monetizing such an agreement at this time - they might be, but negotiations would seem to be one sided in Blizzard's favor) judging by the amount of StarCraft content already on YouTube, and that neither Husky, TB, StarCrafts, etc have been hit with take down notices. So maybe the negotiations are between the association and consortium members for the consortium that you said early isn't quite there yet? You said you were in talks to create a consortium... apparently there is stress there, and that consortium is the source of the entire problem. Stress in the consortium negotiations means prolonged negotiations means OGN's internal messaging causes concern to their internal English speaking members, who express that concern, which causes great consternation from the wider global audience, which leads to what might be understood to be a typical governmental response with a KeSPA flavor.
Questions I'm pondering - when exactly did KeSPA approach MLG concerning English broadcast of the proleague? Who else are you approaching? Why isn't it a "bid" process, or maybe an auction? How are the negotiations going to form the consortium of KeSPA, IEG, and OGN? Have you considered, even for a moment, including GomTV in such negotiations? If they are truly to prevent market cannibalization and create synergy to stabilize the delivery of content, I would imagine you should involve all content generators in that market segment in negotiations to create such a consortium. (Or, more aptly, monopoly cartel.) It would allow you to distribute the market in a fair way, and cooperate to ensure that all production content delivered is at a specific standard.
...pondering deleting entire post - yes, I know KeSPA is unlikely to respond to this, and many other people may reply with negative reaction or a great deal of picking apart and such.
But hell, all I'm posting is my personal reaction and thoughts on it. If anyone actually replies to it with intelligent, reasoned information maybe I'll learn something. Or maybe not. I could be wrong in any of these points. I could be right. I think there are good questions though.
For what it's worth: Great post. Unfortunately, like you said, they'll never read it or even care if they did. What a shady organization, good god..
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
typical kespa tbh, blame everyone but themselves
Typical community tbh, blame KeSPA even tho other people are also wrong in that.
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
typical kespa tbh, blame everyone but themselves
Typical TL, never giving KesPA an inch.
It's pretty tedious seeing how hypocritical the SC2 community is. Half the time we blather on about professionalism, and then as soon as someone we like acts in a completely unprofessional manner we take their side. Doa should not have spoken about this, period. His opinion isn't needed and in this case was damaging and fueled pointless drama.
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
typical kespa tbh, blame everyone but themselves
Typical TL, never giving KesPA an inch.
It's pretty tedious seeing how hypocritical the SC2 community is. Half the time we blather on about professionalism, and then as soon as someone we like acts in a completely unprofessional manner we take their side. Doa should not have spoken about this, period. His opinion isn't needed and in this case was damaging and fueled pointless drama.
Maybe it's just the other half of people? There is nothing such as "TL opinion" - in some cases, some people are vocal, in some cases others. I, for example, always blather on against the sole very concept of "professionalism", so my reaction is consistent
On December 08 2012 02:48 kc2siq wrote: Serious question, did DoA sign an NDA?
B/c whether or not he can be held responsible seems to be dependent on any confidentiality terms and agreements. If he didn't sign one then that's bad business sense by an organization like KESPA and OGN.
..... Do you know anything about working for other people?
There are plenty of reasons to fire people, or no reason at all. NDA is a serious issue, that's the reason to sue people, fire and sue are completely different. If you get sued by employer, you are surely already fired. Let alone, this is just a criticize from KeSPA, and OGN certainly is not happy with DoA's post also, but didn't publicly criticize him.
On December 08 2012 02:48 kc2siq wrote: Serious question, did DoA sign an NDA?
B/c whether or not he can be held responsible seems to be dependent on any confidentiality terms and agreements. If he didn't sign one then that's bad business sense by an organization like KESPA and OGN.
..... Do you know anything about working for other people?
There are plenty of reasons to fire people, or no reason at all. NDA is a serious issue, that's the reason to sue people, fire and sue are completely different. If you get sued by employer, you are surely already fired. Let alone, this is just a criticize from KeSPA, and OGN certainly is not happy with DoA's post also.
Yes sir, I've worked full time in a large company for almost a year and have had internship experience in research and middle market firms where I've had to sign such agreements.
Of course, I also know that when someone goes to the press, suing and firing is a matter of PR.
Also, please calm down. I don't mean to be offensive, that was a serious question. I wasn't insinuating something and I was really asking. I can understand if you feel like I'm stupid and I'll apologize for being stupid if you calmly illustrate your points so I can better learn and improve myself and sound smarter when I discuss NDAs. Thanks in advance if you decide to give me your insights into it. =]
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
typical kespa tbh, blame everyone but themselves
Typical TL, never giving KesPA an inch.
It's pretty tedious seeing how hypocritical the SC2 community is. Half the time we blather on about professionalism, and then as soon as someone we like acts in a completely unprofessional manner we take their side. Doa should not have spoken about this, period. His opinion isn't needed and in this case was damaging and fueled pointless drama.
Negotiations break down with OGN 48 hours before the event and then as a result of poor communication skills they caused confusion and outcry. Kespa is sure professional.
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
typical kespa tbh, blame everyone but themselves
Typical TL, never giving KesPA an inch.
It's pretty tedious seeing how hypocritical the SC2 community is. Half the time we blather on about professionalism, and then as soon as someone we like acts in a completely unprofessional manner we take their side. Doa should not have spoken about this, period. His opinion isn't needed and in this case was damaging and fueled pointless drama.
I assume noone should speak about anything then. Free media, pfffft only the big companies are allowed to spread information. Who needs journalism if the ones with the cash can dictate what the mass needs to know?
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
typical kespa tbh, blame everyone but themselves
Typical TL, never giving KesPA an inch.
It's pretty tedious seeing how hypocritical the SC2 community is. Half the time we blather on about professionalism, and then as soon as someone we like acts in a completely unprofessional manner we take their side. Doa should not have spoken about this, period. His opinion isn't needed and in this case was damaging and fueled pointless drama.
I assume noone should speak about anything then. Free media, pfffft only the big companies are allowed to spread information. Who needs journalism if the ones with the cash can dictate what the mass needs to know?
DoA is not a journalist, neither does he have anything close to a complete set of information regarding what is going on between the companies. It is up to them when and what information to release regarding their own affairs. Everyone here should read Talin's posts.
The fact is no one in this thread has any idea of what's going on and everyone should stop speculating and move on with their lives. I'm tired of reading so much complaining from the anti-kespa people and then the defensive trolling from kespa supporters. Let's just look forward to the future where there will be english and korean streams starting today.
On December 08 2012 02:39 Doodsmack wrote: So many people with poor reading comprehension in this world. Get it through your skulls that DoA claimed the OGN-Kespa negotiation regarding an English cast had fallen through, and all but blamed Kespa for it. Kespa now reveals that negotiations were merely extended, AND ARE STILL ONGOING AS DOA HIMSELF NOW SAYS IN HIS CORRECTION WHERE HE ADMITS HE MISUNDERSTOOD. Therefore DoA gave incorrect information.
I'm sure the same people theorizing that Kespa is throwing DoA under the bus in order to cover up for its own mistake are the same ones who claimed yesterday that MLG had conspired with Kespa to push OGN out and secure the English cast for MLG. In some people's minds big companies are always guilty until proven innocent, even if there's no concrete evidence to go on - only a theoretical possibility. Just please understand that it doesn't do this community any good.
Please learn to understand - KeSPA is not a big company. It's an official organ of the Ministry of Culture, Sports, and Tourism. Technically speaking, an NGO. It is not organized for efficiency. The official organization chart indicates that the actual gaming and organization of gaming is the smallest part of its functions, whereas the largest are marketing and legal.
OGN is not producing English broadcast for Proleague, in part because negotiations are being "extended" according to KeSPA. (KeSPA is likewise a single source, able to shade language and shape a statement to its own purposes.) Those negotiations, according to KeSPA, ARE NOT FOR ENGLISH BROADCASTS. Reading comprehension ftw. Those negotiations are for the formation of a consortium between KeSPA, IEG, and OGN, for the specific purposes stated in the KeSPA statement. There are still disagreements, thus the negotiations are extended. Until there is a finalized agreement, OGN has indicated they will not produce English broadcasts for PL. This is OGN exerting pressure on KeSPA/IEG during the negotiation process. Why, we don't know. Maybe IEG is balking, or maybe it's KeSPA, or maybe someone is asking too much of OGN. We don't know.
... but historically, I'm thinking that KeSPA is saying "This is how it will happen" and one or both of the other organizations are disagreeing over one or more items. So KeSPA says negotiations are extended - they are still talking to each other, someone trying to convince someone else that something is good for everything. We don't know who, what or where. But the consequence is OGN is not doing the PL English casts. Who told the foreign community this (with some emotional bias) was DoA - and only after that does the MLG doing English for PL come up. And that was what... the same week as the opening match?? Surely, MLG was in talks for months to do this. Which is why we heard about it this week.
TRANSPARENCY. Or hell, information. Getting it nailed down in advance, announcing things like this, it's good. We like information. It's our friends.
1) you're nitpicking re Kespa being a NGO. The people concocting conspiracy theories are treating Kespa as big organization in the same way they treat MlG as a big organization - guilty until proven innocent. My point stands.
2) the three way consortium talks are for the specific purpose of international broadcast services. English casting is a central part of that. So yeah, you completely misunderstood that portion of the op if you dont think the talks were concerning english casting. Also, see how you admit negotiations are ongoing? That means DoA was incorrect in claiming negotiations broke down, thus the entire point I was making still stands. For you to go on about the negotiations when you think you're refuting my argument just demonstrates that you didnt understand the point of my argument.
On December 08 2012 02:48 kc2siq wrote: Serious question, did DoA sign an NDA?
B/c whether or not he can be held responsible seems to be dependent on any confidentiality terms and agreements. If he didn't sign one then that's bad business sense by an organization like KESPA and OGN.
..... Do you know anything about working for other people?
There are plenty of reasons to fire people, or no reason at all. NDA is a serious issue, that's the reason to sue people, fire and sue are completely different. If you get sued by employer, you are surely already fired. Let alone, this is just a criticize from KeSPA, and OGN certainly is not happy with DoA's post also.
Yes sir, I've worked full time in a large company for almost a year and have had internship experience in research and middle market firms where I've had to sign such agreements.
Of course, I also know that when someone goes to the press, suing and firing is a matter of PR.
Also, please calm down. I don't mean to be offensive, that was a serious question. I wasn't insinuating something and I was really asking. I can understand if you feel like I'm stupid and I'll apologize for being stupid if you calmly illustrate your points so I can better learn and improve myself and sound smarter when I discuss NDAs. Thanks in advance if you decide to give me your insights into it. =]
Don't be polite, I hate that. Say what you want to say.
I presented my opinions multiple times in this thread, if you want to look, you can search them. Or not, don't care.
NDA has absolutely nothing to do with this issue, you shouldn't bring it up and discredit KeSPA based on that, that's my point about your post.
I was half expecting this when I saw DoA post about it, I think he has some growing up to do really if he reacts like that to something he hasnt even fully investigated, looking forward to the cast tonight even more now, as the commentators may actually be half decent.
On December 08 2012 02:39 Doodsmack wrote: So many people with poor reading comprehension in this world. Get it through your skulls that DoA claimed the OGN-Kespa negotiation regarding an English cast had fallen through, and all but blamed Kespa for it. Kespa now reveals that negotiations were merely extended, AND ARE STILL ONGOING AS DOA HIMSELF NOW SAYS IN HIS CORRECTION WHERE HE ADMITS HE MISUNDERSTOOD. Therefore DoA gave incorrect information.
I'm sure the same people theorizing that Kespa is throwing DoA under the bus in order to cover up for its own mistake are the same ones who claimed yesterday that MLG had conspired with Kespa to push OGN out and secure the English cast for MLG. In some people's minds big companies are always guilty until proven innocent, even if there's no concrete evidence to go on - only a theoretical possibility. Just please understand that it doesn't do this community any good.
Please learn to understand - KeSPA is not a big company. It's an official organ of the Ministry of Culture, Sports, and Tourism. Technically speaking, an NGO. It is not organized for efficiency. The official organization chart indicates that the actual gaming and organization of gaming is the smallest part of its functions, whereas the largest are marketing and legal.
OGN is not producing English broadcast for Proleague, in part because negotiations are being "extended" according to KeSPA. (KeSPA is likewise a single source, able to shade language and shape a statement to its own purposes.) Those negotiations, according to KeSPA, ARE NOT FOR ENGLISH BROADCASTS. Reading comprehension ftw. Those negotiations are for the formation of a consortium between KeSPA, IEG, and OGN, for the specific purposes stated in the KeSPA statement. There are still disagreements, thus the negotiations are extended. Until there is a finalized agreement, OGN has indicated they will not produce English broadcasts for PL. This is OGN exerting pressure on KeSPA/IEG during the negotiation process. Why, we don't know. Maybe IEG is balking, or maybe it's KeSPA, or maybe someone is asking too much of OGN. We don't know.
... but historically, I'm thinking that KeSPA is saying "This is how it will happen" and one or both of the other organizations are disagreeing over one or more items. So KeSPA says negotiations are extended - they are still talking to each other, someone trying to convince someone else that something is good for everything. We don't know who, what or where. But the consequence is OGN is not doing the PL English casts. Who told the foreign community this (with some emotional bias) was DoA - and only after that does the MLG doing English for PL come up. And that was what... the same week as the opening match?? Surely, MLG was in talks for months to do this. Which is why we heard about it this week.
TRANSPARENCY. Or hell, information. Getting it nailed down in advance, announcing things like this, it's good. We like information. It's our friends.
1) you're nitpicking re Kespa being a NGO. The people concocting conspiracy theories are treating Kespa as big organization in the same way they treat MlG as a big organization - guilty until proven innocent. My point stands.
2) the three way consortium talks are for the specific purpose of international broadcast services. English casting is a central part of that. So yeah, you completely misunderstood that portion of the op if you dont think the talks were concerning english casting. Also, see how you admit negotiations are ongoing? That means DoA was incorrect in claiming negotiations broke down, thus the entire point I was making still stands. For you to go on about the negotiations when you think you're refuting my argument just demonstrates that you didnt understand the point of my argument.
1) Nitpicking, no. A major corporation has a strong profit motive driven by a product for sale. An NGO may have a profit motive, but it is often not the primary motive behind their actions. KeSPA as an NGO has as a primary motive that is not related to profit, but to their stated purpose. (Which is here.) They also have a stance (possibly because of their NGO status) that KeSPA is, should be, and must be, the sole driving and guiding force in their industry. Their history consists in part of strong arm tactics intended to cause other organizations to join with them, subject to their decisions. That there is a negotiation to create a consortium (of which, I have no doubt KeSPA will head) that can impact the PL broadcast is a little telling here. They already have a relationship with IEG and OGN. Why is this consortium negotiation's status affecting the English broadcast? What about that negotiation touches on or is causing OGN to not provide English broadcast services to someone already a partner?
2) Again, reading comprehension. The consortium negotiations are NOT solely for the specific purpose of international broadcast services. Otherwise, they would have stated it in those terms. They instead said, specifically, "By bundling the Starleague and Proleague, the goal was to prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services." They are creating a single package in which OSL and PL are, more or less, a solo tournament and a team league, packaged and delivered together. They are reducing competition between OSL and PL, gaining PL something which apparently they didn't have (an English broadcast ability) and had little preparation for, and are creating a relationship far closer than their past partnerships. What about international broadcast services requires stabilization from OGN? They already have the capability and demonstrated ability. KeSPA doesn't. Neither does IEG. What actually needs to be stabilized? Except that it will reduce any pressure on IEG/KeSPA due to a lack of such ability, and eliminate the need for OGN and IEG/KeSPA to compete against each other in a global audience.
I think I can sum up your point quite succinctly - "Guys, KeSPA is a lovely organization and DoA messed up. KeSPA would not do the kinds of things people are saying they do, and they aren't being mean to DoA for causing a fuss."
Given that I expect KeSPA to have reasonably decent translators on staff, I imagine the word choice in their statement is deliberate even if they don't wholly understand the connotations connected. From a historical perspective, I think that it's quite possible for KeSPA to be engaging in shenanigans, that there was an intent to respond very harshly towards DoA. They claim DoA has apologized - something DoA has stated quite firmly he has not done. Yes, DoA might have been incorrect, but be realistic - KeSPA's own actions in the past make it entirely too believable that they are continuing in this tradition to the future.
On December 08 2012 04:51 leo23 wrote: I think DoA did what was necessary
without what he did we would have never gotten a response
There was no need for response in the first place, there was/will have english cast, just not from ogn. Hence, drama from nothing.
Actually, for opening day, DoA and Montecristo will be casting. It will not be OGN, though. They are doing it as a favor to IEG, I think. (At least, that's how it sounded from DoA.)
Random, unrelated topic - lots of very low post individuals commenting in this thread without actually taking part in the conversation - just short notes along the lines of "blah blah is a horrible person and wrong to have done this" or "this organization sucks".
I think I read a blog about something like that awhile back... Hmmmmmm....
Does anyone know if the streams / videos are going to be available for the whole world, or if it's going to be limited for Koreans as was the case with the MvP invitational?
Yeah, I don't really get why people are so much on DoA's side on this.. He clearly wrote the post based on without all the information, and probably off the frustration of not knowing much. That HAS to be seen as unprofessional, especially if you have been working with the organization that you are going to be "exposing".
On December 08 2012 04:21 Connor987 wrote: I was half expecting this when I saw DoA post about it, I think he has some growing up to do really if he reacts like that to something he hasnt even fully investigated, looking forward to the cast tonight even more now, as the commentators may actually be half decent.
The problem with Doa currently, and it's a problem in a lot of the community, is that there are a lot of people who give the community power. That the community frankly has no place in.
Esports, and sc2, are different from traditional sports in that we involve our community a lot. And some of the involvement of our community is good. Some of the power in our community is good. But when that is appropriate and when the community really has no place at all is still a very grey area. This was an example of a time when the community didn't deserve to know anything and really had no place to feel like they should have deciding authority on anything, especially with half-cocked information.
It's something that will continue to develop, just like "how to market" Sc2 and esports is still developing, and "how to advertise to these people" is still developing.
Doa fucked up. We're still having an english broadcast. Every top league organization still isn't playing well with eachother and that's still not unique to KESPA. It's raining outside. The sky is still blue. We're growing. Calm down.
What's irksome to me about harshing on DoA is that he was basically the "last guy to know" in this situation. If KeSPA had English-language plans, for OGN to be proceeding as they have and have the lights turned off like that, no, KeSPA can EABOD.
Can't we just be glad that there is still development towards English casting and viewing on twitch instead of hating on the Kespa / DoA. The entire community is full of prima donnas. If something resolved itself or if people are working towards resolving something you don't continually shit on their progress, as if you want things to fail just to prove your own selfish point.
DoA was just saying what he understood to be the situation - let it go!
Just be glad KeSPA is going to have an English cast for those of us who don't want the Korean cast, I'm still unbelievably pumped for Proleague and the unveiling of the Unholy Alliance
On December 08 2012 05:17 Tapppi wrote: Yeah, I don't really get why people are so much on DoA's side on this.. He clearly wrote the post based on without all the information, and probably off the frustration of not knowing much. That HAS to be seen as unprofessional, especially if you have been working with the organization that you are going to be "exposing".
Because one shouldn't trust what Kespa says at face value. And what Kespa said didn't actually contradict anything DoA said, either (from what I can tell).
All the demands for 'transparency' and 'information' are pretty damn stupid, as was DoA's ragepost. KeSPA, OGN, etc are preparing to produce certain content. When the season starts, you can decide for yourself whether the content presented is worth your time and if there is a subscription option your money, or not. If you are unhappy about whatever aspects of their content, you could then criticize it. Starting random forum drama about this is pretty stupid; to demand more 'transparency' in this is even more ridiculous - if these companies wanted input from TL posters I'm sure they'd make a poll for you.
It's not like any of these entities are out to ruin their fans' lives - they want their content to be watched. How much they care about foreign viewer base remains to be seen, but I'm pretty certain that stupid forum shit like this isn't going to change anything. If KeSPA / OGN / whatever in fact do not care about foreign viewers, they won't care about you flaming them on TL either. If they do care about foreign viewers but you feel like the content they produce isn't good enough, there are better ways to express your desires and expectations for the broadcast than writing OMG KESPA IS EVIL I WISH THEY ALL DIE!!!1 on TL.
I think DOA acted a bit soon, but I'm wondering if there would've been an English cast if he hadn't shared this with the community.
Anyway, maybe someone can help me with some questions I have:
1. As I live in Europe and proleague starts at 4:00 am, will there be vod's? 2. Where can I get the live cast or the vod's (or is it the link in the opening post)? 3. Will it cost money to watch the vod's and how much (I won't mind paying)? 4. If there are vod's in either Korean or English, can it be watched spoilerfree?
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
typical kespa tbh, blame everyone but themselves
Typical community tbh, blame KeSPA even tho other people are also wrong in that.
its an organization that i really dont like and never have. why would i give them anything?
On December 08 2012 05:08 felisconcolori wrote: Random, unrelated topic - lots of very low post individuals commenting in this thread without actually taking part in the conversation - just short notes along the lines of "blah blah is a horrible person and wrong to have done this" or "this organization sucks".
I think I read a blog about something like that awhile back... Hmmmmmm....
Was thinking the very same thing. Even looked into a few of the posting historys, 3/4 neutral fan club posts then in with the DOA's a bad man, long live kespa. It's got my suspicion gland twitching.
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I based the post I made on the information I was given. I never apologized to Kespa nor do I feel I did anything wrong itn making the thread.. I spoke today with IEG and took the post down after finding that my information wasn't totally accurate. Nothing more.
IEG seems to be legit in wanting to provide a good broadcast for the global scene and it's a shame things are off to a rough start. I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
Game on.
aka they weren't planning an english cast as you originally posted but after seeing your post and the community reaction decided to do one and make you look bad in the process
if they were really planning it they would have already had casters and not need you, or told you in advance
On December 08 2012 06:31 Fission wrote: Doa might have been a bit hasty to cry wolf...
in retrospect, his jumping the gun on this news was a bit tasteless.
It's jumping the gun when it's a day or two before said event? really?...sounds like waiting closer to the last minute than to jumping the gun.
Also, since kespa has no casters lined up and Doa will be casting it, it doesn't seem like kespa had any actually plans to do one before his post. (Ie. if they really were going to have a cast but hadn't said anything you would think they would be prepared with something like, lets say, casters...they're a little important to a cast, you know.
Thing is, we'll never know if Doa's post is what actually prompted this response. As far as I know, they could have written up this response only after the negative reaction from the community to his post, in which case the post was successful in its purpose, even if Doa himself (predictably) got the short end of the stick.
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
typical kespa tbh, blame everyone but themselves
Typical community tbh, blame KeSPA even tho other people are also wrong in that.
its an organization that i really dont like and never have. why would i give them anything?
How have you given them anything unless you are a corporate sponsor or paid real money for their products? Seems to me you are the one that takes for granted their services over the past... decade.
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I based the post I made on the information I was given. I never apologized to Kespa nor do I feel I did anything wrong itn making the thread.. I spoke today with IEG and took the post down after finding that my information wasn't totally accurate. Nothing more.
IEG seems to be legit in wanting to provide a good broadcast for the global scene and it's a shame things are off to a rough start. I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
Game on.
aka they weren't planning an english cast as you originally posted but after seeing your post and the community reaction decided to do one and make you look bad in the process
if they were really planning it they would have already had casters and not need you, or told you in advance
kespa so transparent lol
Much better and more aptly put than I did, and I think you've got it. Of course, I think they weren't planning an English cast so much as they were planning that OGN would do the English cast for them, because of course how could they not?
On December 08 2012 06:31 Fission wrote: Doa might have been a bit hasty to cry wolf...
in retrospect, his jumping the gun on this news was a bit tasteless.
It's jumping the gun when it's a day or two before said event? really?...sounds like waiting closer to the last minute than to jumping the gun.
Also, since kespa has no casters lined up and Doa will be casting it, it doesn't seem like kespa had any actually plans to do one before his post. (Ie. if they really were going to have a cast but hadn't said anything you would think they would be prepared with something like, lets say, casters...they're a little important to a cast, you know.
you are correct: day one or two before the event is not jumping the gun, day9 may have been though.
I don't get your logic, people. If KeSPA doesn't care about foreign audience and wasn't concerned with providing an English cast, why would some nerds posting angry rage on Teamliquid suddenly make them change their minds? How does that make any sense at all...
On December 08 2012 07:35 Salazarz wrote: I don't get your logic, people. If KeSPA doesn't care about foreign audience and wasn't concerned with providing an English cast, why would some nerds posting angry rage on Teamliquid suddenly make them change their minds? How does that make any sense at all...
As posted before you. They did it just to make Doa looks bad to foreign audience. Those who they don´t care about. This because they saw the reaction of the foreign audience they don´t care about. So in the end, they are spending money (Stream) on the people they don´t care about, instead of letting OGN do this. Makes sense.
On December 08 2012 02:39 Doodsmack wrote: So many people with poor reading comprehension in this world. Get it through your skulls that DoA claimed the OGN-Kespa negotiation regarding an English cast had fallen through, and all but blamed Kespa for it. Kespa now reveals that negotiations were merely extended, AND ARE STILL ONGOING AS DOA HIMSELF NOW SAYS IN HIS CORRECTION WHERE HE ADMITS HE MISUNDERSTOOD. Therefore DoA gave incorrect information.
I'm sure the same people theorizing that Kespa is throwing DoA under the bus in order to cover up for its own mistake are the same ones who claimed yesterday that MLG had conspired with Kespa to push OGN out and secure the English cast for MLG. In some people's minds big companies are always guilty until proven innocent, even if there's no concrete evidence to go on - only a theoretical possibility. Just please understand that it doesn't do this community any good.
Please learn to understand - KeSPA is not a big company. It's an official organ of the Ministry of Culture, Sports, and Tourism. Technically speaking, an NGO. It is not organized for efficiency. The official organization chart indicates that the actual gaming and organization of gaming is the smallest part of its functions, whereas the largest are marketing and legal.
OGN is not producing English broadcast for Proleague, in part because negotiations are being "extended" according to KeSPA. (KeSPA is likewise a single source, able to shade language and shape a statement to its own purposes.) Those negotiations, according to KeSPA, ARE NOT FOR ENGLISH BROADCASTS. Reading comprehension ftw. Those negotiations are for the formation of a consortium between KeSPA, IEG, and OGN, for the specific purposes stated in the KeSPA statement. There are still disagreements, thus the negotiations are extended. Until there is a finalized agreement, OGN has indicated they will not produce English broadcasts for PL. This is OGN exerting pressure on KeSPA/IEG during the negotiation process. Why, we don't know. Maybe IEG is balking, or maybe it's KeSPA, or maybe someone is asking too much of OGN. We don't know.
... but historically, I'm thinking that KeSPA is saying "This is how it will happen" and one or both of the other organizations are disagreeing over one or more items. So KeSPA says negotiations are extended - they are still talking to each other, someone trying to convince someone else that something is good for everything. We don't know who, what or where. But the consequence is OGN is not doing the PL English casts. Who told the foreign community this (with some emotional bias) was DoA - and only after that does the MLG doing English for PL come up. And that was what... the same week as the opening match?? Surely, MLG was in talks for months to do this. Which is why we heard about it this week.
TRANSPARENCY. Or hell, information. Getting it nailed down in advance, announcing things like this, it's good. We like information. It's our friends.
1) you're nitpicking re Kespa being a NGO. The people concocting conspiracy theories are treating Kespa as big organization in the same way they treat MlG as a big organization - guilty until proven innocent. My point stands.
2) the three way consortium talks are for the specific purpose of international broadcast services. English casting is a central part of that. So yeah, you completely misunderstood that portion of the op if you dont think the talks were concerning english casting. Also, see how you admit negotiations are ongoing? That means DoA was incorrect in claiming negotiations broke down, thus the entire point I was making still stands. For you to go on about the negotiations when you think you're refuting my argument just demonstrates that you didnt understand the point of my argument.
1) Nitpicking, no. A major corporation has a strong profit motive driven by a product for sale. An NGO may have a profit motive, but it is often not the primary motive behind their actions. KeSPA as an NGO has as a primary motive that is not related to profit, but to their stated purpose. (Which is here.) They also have a stance (possibly because of their NGO status) that KeSPA is, should be, and must be, the sole driving and guiding force in their industry. Their history consists in part of strong arm tactics intended to cause other organizations to join with them, subject to their decisions. That there is a negotiation to create a consortium (of which, I have no doubt KeSPA will head) that can impact the PL broadcast is a little telling here. They already have a relationship with IEG and OGN. Why is this consortium negotiation's status affecting the English broadcast? What about that negotiation touches on or is causing OGN to not provide English broadcast services to someone already a partner?
2) Again, reading comprehension. The consortium negotiations are NOT solely for the specific purpose of international broadcast services. Otherwise, they would have stated it in those terms. They instead said, specifically, "By bundling the Starleague and Proleague, the goal was to prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services." They are creating a single package in which OSL and PL are, more or less, a solo tournament and a team league, packaged and delivered together. They are reducing competition between OSL and PL, gaining PL something which apparently they didn't have (an English broadcast ability) and had little preparation for, and are creating a relationship far closer than their past partnerships. What about international broadcast services requires stabilization from OGN? They already have the capability and demonstrated ability. KeSPA doesn't. Neither does IEG. What actually needs to be stabilized? Except that it will reduce any pressure on IEG/KeSPA due to a lack of such ability, and eliminate the need for OGN and IEG/KeSPA to compete against each other in a global audience.
I think I can sum up your point quite succinctly - "Guys, KeSPA is a lovely organization and DoA messed up. KeSPA would not do the kinds of things people are saying they do, and they aren't being mean to DoA for causing a fuss."
Given that I expect KeSPA to have reasonably decent translators on staff, I imagine the word choice in their statement is deliberate even if they don't wholly understand the connotations connected. From a historical perspective, I think that it's quite possible for KeSPA to be engaging in shenanigans, that there was an intent to respond very harshly towards DoA. They claim DoA has apologized - something DoA has stated quite firmly he has not done. Yes, DoA might have been incorrect, but be realistic - KeSPA's own actions in the past make it entirely too believable that they are continuing in this tradition to the future.
1) that's a cool distinction but it doesn't refute my point about people having a tendency to assume big organizations are guilty until proven innocent. They will do so regardless of whether the motive they've dreamed up is profit-based or a desire to strong arm and control an industry. Both of those types of motives give people ammo to concoct conspiracy theories about big organizations.
2) Even if we assume that international broadcasts are only one component of the negotiations (which I question because the placement in the op of the phrase "the year international broadcasts began" and the placing if "international broadcast service" both at the beginning and end of the paragtaph), you still aren't refuting my point because you're admitting that negotiations are going on. Do you agree with me that doa was incorrect in claiming negotiations had ended? That was my point in posting in this thread. Other posters are failing to comprehend that doa's and Kespa's statements were different on the facts. I still don't get why you haven't addressed the crux of my point and instead are going on tangents that ramble a bit and don't get their point across very clearly. You did say "yes, DoA might have been incorrect" but it was in the middle of a meandering paragraph the point of which wasn't very clear.
i thought english cast process was in the works outside ogn before doa's post. why would this action automatically deduct into the idea that doa's post changed their position?
take fault in kespa's late preparations but thats the only fault i see in this "incident". feels to me all this should have been taken care of without public knowledge since it doesnt need to be, perhaps it was their intention until doa's post that made it public.
with that said, i think its arrogant and double standard-like to accuse kespa of trying to use doa as an escape goat...when doa's post was just about losing his position of casting sc2 for ogn.
doa's post was about OnGameNet not casting in english, NOT kespa canceling english cast. the above fact some how changed to "proleague will not have english cast" for some reason and people went apeshit
as for kespa run event/cast vs ogn run event/cast, no one, absolutely no one here should have a say and its totally up to those two company/organization.
On December 08 2012 08:28 jinorazi wrote: i thought english cast process was in the works outside ogn before doa's post. why would this action automatically deduct into the idea that doa's post changed their position?
take fault in kespa's late preparations but thats the only fault i see in this "incident". feels to me all this should have been taken care of without public knowledge since it doesnt need to be, perhaps it was their intention until doa's post that made it public.
Because people like believing in a foreigner hero that sticks it to the evil Korean organization.
On December 08 2012 08:28 jinorazi wrote: doa's post was about OnGameNet not casting in english, NOT kespa canceling english cast. the above fact some how changed to "proleague will not have english cast" for some reason and people went apeshit
This ^^
I'm starting to form the opinion that:
a) Kespa wanted to do their own English cast via IEG, not OGN b) They shut OGN out from the English cast (because of (a)) c) They weren't ready to roll out their English broadcast via IEG yet (perhaps they were planning on providing it "soon" after Proleague starts, once they were ready) d) Their hand was forced by DoA's post because, ultimately, they do want English/foreign viewers and so they decided they had to provide something from Day 1 of Proleague, lest give extra weight to DoA's report
In summary: Kespa is still reneging/breaking-off on their agreement with OGN to let them do the English cast, but it's evident that they really weren't ready yet with their own IEG solution but are scrambling to throw something together: as evidenced by the fact that they are getting DoA and Montecristo, the OGN casters, to do the Day 1 casting.
Is that not RIDICULOUSLY ironic? Kespa told OGN, "no, your months of preparing for the English cast is now going to be thrown away. We/IEG will do the English cast," followed by, "sorry, we aren't ready yet. Can we borrow your OGN casters? Including DoA, who we just attempted to disgrace?"
My interpretation of this is that DoA's announcement wasn't wrong, but perhaps (for his personal circumstance) premature. It seems OGN's English broadcast plans were disrupted by KeSPA to one degree or another, and alternatives to the original set-up are being used instead. I'd also be very surprised if there wasn't a fairly large degree of behind the scenes back and forth between KeSPA, OGN, and the various parties interested in an English Cast (presumably EG-TL, Blizzard and MLG) to figure out what exactly was going to happen. And DoA happened to blow the top off of the manoeuvring.
I'm worried who these casters will be. Kespa never had the most perfect grasp on foreigner tastes, so I'm thinking we might see a really bizarre and out of sync team.
Casting smoothly with 2 people is tough, let alone 3. OGN and MSL were great at that with korean casters, but letting Kespa handpick English casters... I have my doubts.
On December 08 2012 09:17 MountainDewJunkie wrote: I'm worried who these casters will be. Kespa never had the most perfect grasp on foreigner tastes, so I'm thinking we might see a really bizarre and out of sync team.
Casting smoothly with 2 people is tough, let alone 3. OGN and MSL were great at that with korean casters, but letting Kespa handpick English casters... I have my doubts.
best route: recruit the best translator/interpreter/typist the country has to offer per caster and have them subtitle the event live.
On December 07 2012 18:42 DoA wrote: I based the post I made on the information I was given. I never apologized to Kespa nor do I feel I did anything wrong itn making the thread.. I spoke today with IEG and took the post down after finding that my information wasn't totally accurate. Nothing more.
IEG seems to be legit in wanting to provide a good broadcast for the global scene and it's a shame things are off to a rough start. I'll be casting the Proleague opener with Monte Cristo on their stream tomorrow as a favor to them and Kespa from OGN.
Game on.
aka they weren't planning an english cast as you originally posted but after seeing your post and the community reaction decided to do one and make you look bad in the process
if they were really planning it they would have already had casters and not need you, or told you in advance
kespa so transparent lol
Much better and more aptly put than I did, and I think you've got it. Of course, I think they weren't planning an English cast so much as they were planning that OGN would do the English cast for them, because of course how could they not?
Called it about ten pages ago, but yeah. It's kinda obvious that they made DoA fall on his sword. They figured they could get away without an English broadcast, but realized they couldn't, so they made sacrificed Doa to save face. Nice.
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
typical kespa tbh, blame everyone but themselves
Typical community tbh, blame KeSPA even tho other people are also wrong in that.
its an organization that i really dont like and never have. why would i give them anything?
How have you given them anything unless you are a corporate sponsor or paid real money for their products? Seems to me you are the one that takes for granted their services over the past... decade.
by "give them anything" i meant as in be positive about the decisions they made.. nothing to do with money *whoosh*
like when you say "give someone the benefit of the doubt" you are basically taking their word for it.. which im not.
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
typical kespa tbh, blame everyone but themselves
Typical community tbh, blame KeSPA even tho other people are also wrong in that.
its an organization that i really dont like and never have. why would i give them anything?
How have you given them anything unless you are a corporate sponsor or paid real money for their products? Seems to me you are the one that takes for granted their services over the past... decade.
by "give them anything" i meant as in be positive about the decisions they made.. nothing to do with money *whoosh*
like when you say "give someone the benefit of the doubt" you are basically taking their word for it.. which im not.
It's a pretty big inference to draw from "why would i give them anything" to "why would i give them the benefit of the doubt", I can't read your mind and the dialogue doesn't suggest that was what you were talking about.
On December 07 2012 17:18 Wedge wrote: "OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
Lol, went in on him pretty harshly.
typical kespa tbh, blame everyone but themselves
Typical community tbh, blame KeSPA even tho other people are also wrong in that.
its an organization that i really dont like and never have. why would i give them anything?
How have you given them anything unless you are a corporate sponsor or paid real money for their products? Seems to me you are the one that takes for granted their services over the past... decade.
by "give them anything" i meant as in be positive about the decisions they made.. nothing to do with money *whoosh*
like when you say "give someone the benefit of the doubt" you are basically taking their word for it.. which im not.
It's a pretty big inference to draw from "why would i give them anything" to "why would i give them the benefit of the doubt", I can't read your mind and the dialogue doesn't suggest that was what you were talking about.
Even though DoA made a mistake, it's really good to see him force Kespa's hand... He isn't the only commentator/pro-gamer who thinks that Kespa is greedy. Also, it kind of scares me at how easily people can get banned on this forum...
On December 08 2012 02:39 Doodsmack wrote: So many people with poor reading comprehension in this world. Get it through your skulls that DoA claimed the OGN-Kespa negotiation regarding an English cast had fallen through, and all but blamed Kespa for it. Kespa now reveals that negotiations were merely extended, AND ARE STILL ONGOING AS DOA HIMSELF NOW SAYS IN HIS CORRECTION WHERE HE ADMITS HE MISUNDERSTOOD. Therefore DoA gave incorrect information.
I'm sure the same people theorizing that Kespa is throwing DoA under the bus in order to cover up for its own mistake are the same ones who claimed yesterday that MLG had conspired with Kespa to push OGN out and secure the English cast for MLG. In some people's minds big companies are always guilty until proven innocent, even if there's no concrete evidence to go on - only a theoretical possibility. Just please understand that it doesn't do this community any good.
Please learn to understand - KeSPA is not a big company. It's an official organ of the Ministry of Culture, Sports, and Tourism. Technically speaking, an NGO. It is not organized for efficiency. The official organization chart indicates that the actual gaming and organization of gaming is the smallest part of its functions, whereas the largest are marketing and legal.
OGN is not producing English broadcast for Proleague, in part because negotiations are being "extended" according to KeSPA. (KeSPA is likewise a single source, able to shade language and shape a statement to its own purposes.) Those negotiations, according to KeSPA, ARE NOT FOR ENGLISH BROADCASTS. Reading comprehension ftw. Those negotiations are for the formation of a consortium between KeSPA, IEG, and OGN, for the specific purposes stated in the KeSPA statement. There are still disagreements, thus the negotiations are extended. Until there is a finalized agreement, OGN has indicated they will not produce English broadcasts for PL. This is OGN exerting pressure on KeSPA/IEG during the negotiation process. Why, we don't know. Maybe IEG is balking, or maybe it's KeSPA, or maybe someone is asking too much of OGN. We don't know.
... but historically, I'm thinking that KeSPA is saying "This is how it will happen" and one or both of the other organizations are disagreeing over one or more items. So KeSPA says negotiations are extended - they are still talking to each other, someone trying to convince someone else that something is good for everything. We don't know who, what or where. But the consequence is OGN is not doing the PL English casts. Who told the foreign community this (with some emotional bias) was DoA - and only after that does the MLG doing English for PL come up. And that was what... the same week as the opening match?? Surely, MLG was in talks for months to do this. Which is why we heard about it this week.
TRANSPARENCY. Or hell, information. Getting it nailed down in advance, announcing things like this, it's good. We like information. It's our friends.
1) you're nitpicking re Kespa being a NGO. The people concocting conspiracy theories are treating Kespa as big organization in the same way they treat MlG as a big organization - guilty until proven innocent. My point stands.
2) the three way consortium talks are for the specific purpose of international broadcast services. English casting is a central part of that. So yeah, you completely misunderstood that portion of the op if you dont think the talks were concerning english casting. Also, see how you admit negotiations are ongoing? That means DoA was incorrect in claiming negotiations broke down, thus the entire point I was making still stands. For you to go on about the negotiations when you think you're refuting my argument just demonstrates that you didnt understand the point of my argument.
1) Nitpicking, no. A major corporation has a strong profit motive driven by a product for sale. An NGO may have a profit motive, but it is often not the primary motive behind their actions. KeSPA as an NGO has as a primary motive that is not related to profit, but to their stated purpose. (Which is here.) They also have a stance (possibly because of their NGO status) that KeSPA is, should be, and must be, the sole driving and guiding force in their industry. Their history consists in part of strong arm tactics intended to cause other organizations to join with them, subject to their decisions. That there is a negotiation to create a consortium (of which, I have no doubt KeSPA will head) that can impact the PL broadcast is a little telling here. They already have a relationship with IEG and OGN. Why is this consortium negotiation's status affecting the English broadcast? What about that negotiation touches on or is causing OGN to not provide English broadcast services to someone already a partner?
2) Again, reading comprehension. The consortium negotiations are NOT solely for the specific purpose of international broadcast services. Otherwise, they would have stated it in those terms. They instead said, specifically, "By bundling the Starleague and Proleague, the goal was to prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services." They are creating a single package in which OSL and PL are, more or less, a solo tournament and a team league, packaged and delivered together. They are reducing competition between OSL and PL, gaining PL something which apparently they didn't have (an English broadcast ability) and had little preparation for, and are creating a relationship far closer than their past partnerships. What about international broadcast services requires stabilization from OGN? They already have the capability and demonstrated ability. KeSPA doesn't. Neither does IEG. What actually needs to be stabilized? Except that it will reduce any pressure on IEG/KeSPA due to a lack of such ability, and eliminate the need for OGN and IEG/KeSPA to compete against each other in a global audience.
I think I can sum up your point quite succinctly - "Guys, KeSPA is a lovely organization and DoA messed up. KeSPA would not do the kinds of things people are saying they do, and they aren't being mean to DoA for causing a fuss."
Given that I expect KeSPA to have reasonably decent translators on staff, I imagine the word choice in their statement is deliberate even if they don't wholly understand the connotations connected. From a historical perspective, I think that it's quite possible for KeSPA to be engaging in shenanigans, that there was an intent to respond very harshly towards DoA. They claim DoA has apologized - something DoA has stated quite firmly he has not done. Yes, DoA might have been incorrect, but be realistic - KeSPA's own actions in the past make it entirely too believable that they are continuing in this tradition to the future.
1) that's a cool distinction but it doesn't refute my point about people having a tendency to assume big organizations are guilty until proven innocent. They will do so regardless of whether the motive they've dreamed up is profit-based or a desire to strong arm and control an industry. Both of those types of motives give people ammo to concoct conspiracy theories about big organizations.
2) Even if we assume that international broadcasts are only one component of the negotiations (which I question because the placement in the op of the phrase "the year international broadcasts began" and the placing if "international broadcast service" both at the beginning and end of the paragtaph), you still aren't refuting my point because you're admitting that negotiations are going on. Do you agree with me that doa was incorrect in claiming negotiations had ended? That was my point in posting in this thread. Other posters are failing to comprehend that doa's and Kespa's statements were different on the facts. I still don't get why you haven't addressed the crux of my point and instead are going on tangents that ramble a bit and don't get their point across very clearly. You did say "yes, DoA might have been incorrect" but it was in the middle of a meandering paragraph the point of which wasn't very clear.
1) It's not a conspiracy theory if it's a pattern of historic behavior that has remained unchanged. This is not about shady large organizations doing things being adjudged guilty until proven innocent. There is no guilty or innocent here. This is a specific organization with a documented track history of making decisions and taking actions that are similar. The motive is fairly important. You have no evidence to back up your claim that common practice is to assume large organizations are guilty - otherwise, I would be off right now busy ripping into the Red Cross for slowing down aid operations in NYC in order to boost their image. To actually refute your theory, however, research + Show Spoiler +
suggests that corporate reputation and how they conduct themselves is more of a factor in developing trust among consumers/general public. (Conspiracy theory, also, is probably not the right wording to use.)
2) The simple, TL; dr version of refutation - DoA and KeSPA's statements were different on facts. Which one of them outright lied about the actions of the other, from a very high level, versus the one that was probably not entirely right about everything as one of a few employees that does not speak the language the company does business with?
What I'm starting to see is that your entire point is "DoA was wrong" and possibly "DoA wanted to hurt KeSPA". Would you agree with that? Because if the entirety of your discussion is focused on "DoA" is a bad man, we're having two different discussions.
On December 07 2012 23:47 Ammanas wrote: It amazes me, how people can say things like "without Doa's post we probably wouldn't have english stream at all" when the ORIGINAL ISSUE was that Kespa wanted to have ENGLISH ONLY stream with FREE HD and VODs....
imo there was a little bit of struggle because OGN didn't want to lose money from paid HD and VODs. That's understandable. Kespa wants to reach out to foreign viewers and they don't want to have fee based stream. That's also understandable. There is no "enemy". In the end, it actually worked for the best for us - foreign viewers. We will get FREE HD and VODs for ALL Proleague matches. Weekends will probably still be OGN feed anyway.
The only problem I see here is that we are discovering this now, few hours before the PL actually starts.
I wish some people would just stop looking for drama, shut up and enjoy the games -.-
In case anyone was wondering, this was indeed a load of bullshit. The stream is 360p unless you pay $5. You can currently access VODs for free but the description on the subscribe popup says that subscription gets you access to "exclusive twitch archives", so that may be a mistake. I don't even remember reading anything about free HD anywhere. It's amazing what people come up with.
DoA tells the story from what he knows to spread the news KeSPA was keeping to themselves so obviously his message and attempt to share info was "distorted" because no one else would share what was actually going on... I really hate the need for secrecy that KeSPA holds so dear...
How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
if u don't watch bad english casters and don't care about "foreigner WOOOOOOOOOOHO FUCK YEAH" its a very nice league to watch.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
if u don't watch bad english casters and don't care about "foreigner WOOOOOOOOOOHO FUCK YEAH" its a very nice league to watch.
Plus the maps are an attempt at doing something different.
Also, yes maps are IMBA for certain races but that's the point of Proleague (team league in general) because teams see maps in advance. So if a map is favored for T vs Z, teams would obviously not send out Zs (generally speaking) in that map.
Anyway, yeah... kudos for KeSPA for trying out weird maps.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
if u don't watch bad english casters and don't care about "foreigner WOOOOOOOOOOHO FUCK YEAH" its a very nice league to watch.
But I do listen to the casters. I think good casters make matches better. As for rooting for the foreigners they were not actually foreigners it was Koreans on a foreigner team plus one foreigner and the reason I was so disappointed was because they are the only people in this league I have interest in watching and today made it clear its not worth my time, much less my money.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
if u don't watch bad english casters and don't care about "foreigner WOOOOOOOOOOHO FUCK YEAH" its a very nice league to watch.
But I do listen to the casters. I think good casters make matches better. As for rooting for the foreigners they were not actually foreigners it was Koreans on a foreigner team plus one foreigner and the reason I was so disappointed was because they are the only people in this league I have interest in watching and today made it clear its not worth my time, much less my money.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
if u don't watch bad english casters and don't care about "foreigner WOOOOOOOOOOHO FUCK YEAH" its a very nice league to watch.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
if u don't watch bad english casters and don't care about "foreigner WOOOOOOOOOOHO FUCK YEAH" its a very nice league to watch.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
if u don't watch bad english casters and don't care about "foreigner WOOOOOOOOOOHO FUCK YEAH" its a very nice league to watch.
Indeed who want's quality ... right ?
koreans best quality yup ).
No one disputes the Korean Kespa players quality. The viewing quality of proleague which is considerably poorer is what's at issue.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
if u don't watch bad english casters and don't care about "foreigner WOOOOOOOOOOHO FUCK YEAH" its a very nice league to watch.
Indeed who want's quality ... right ?
koreans best quality yup ).
No one disputes the Korean Kespa players quality. The viewing quality of proleague which is considerably poorer is what's at issue.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
if u don't watch bad english casters and don't care about "foreigner WOOOOOOOOOOHO FUCK YEAH" its a very nice league to watch.
But I do listen to the casters. I think good casters make matches better. As for rooting for the foreigners they were not actually foreigners it was Koreans on a foreigner team plus one foreigner and the reason I was so disappointed was because they are the only people in this league I have interest in watching and today made it clear its not worth my time, much less my money.
Translation:
Whaa, my misguided view of the pro SC2 scene led me to pay 5 dollars, an amount of money that I could've spent on a whole cup of coffee somewhere else, to a deserving eSports league. I'm pissed off and mad that the one team I care about disappointed, so I'm going to blame everyone from the casters to the players on EGTL for this league being a complete failure because I, one person out of the 20,000+ that watched live tonight, am not satisfied.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
if u don't watch bad english casters and don't care about "foreigner WOOOOOOOOOOHO FUCK YEAH" its a very nice league to watch.
But I do listen to the casters. I think good casters make matches better. As for rooting for the foreigners they were not actually foreigners it was Koreans on a foreigner team plus one foreigner and the reason I was so disappointed was because they are the only people in this league I have interest in watching and today made it clear its not worth my time, much less my money.
Translation:
Whaa, my misguided view of the pro SC2 scene led me to pay 5 dollars, an amount of money that I could've spent on a whole cup of coffee somewhere else, to a deserving eSports league. I'm pissed off and mad that the one team I care about disappointed, so I'm going to blame everyone from the casters to the players on EGTL for this league being a complete failure because I, one person out of the 20,000+ that watched live tonight, am not satisfied.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
According to the LR threads at least, it was more worth watching than the GSTL finals.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
if u don't watch bad english casters and don't care about "foreigner WOOOOOOOOOOHO FUCK YEAH" its a very nice league to watch.
But I do listen to the casters. I think good casters make matches better. As for rooting for the foreigners they were not actually foreigners it was Koreans on a foreigner team plus one foreigner and the reason I was so disappointed was because they are the only people in this league I have interest in watching and today made it clear its not worth my time, much less my money.
Translation:
Whaa, my misguided view of the pro SC2 scene led me to pay 5 dollars, an amount of money that I could've spent on a whole cup of coffee somewhere else, to a deserving eSports league. I'm pissed off and mad that the one team I care about disappointed, so I'm going to blame everyone from the casters to the players on EGTL for this league being a complete failure because I, one person out of the 20,000+ that watched live tonight, am not satisfied.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
Because people are not like you, who know nothing about proleague.
I don't understand the problem here... I'm out of the circle for a long time, but this morning I checked the stream on TL and there's English commentary, the VODs are also uploaded on Youtube as freevods.
So basically it's the same as before : free stream, free Vods and now we have an English Stream also.
I don't get it why people keep saying "no English commentary", "pay for view" ???? From my eyes Kespa has done what they always did, especially the free stream and free vods make proleague the best league over other paying leagues.
On December 08 2012 21:15 kamikami wrote: I don't understand the problem here... I'm out of the circle for a long time, but this morning I checked the stream on TL and there's English commentary, the VODs are also uploaded on Youtube as freevods.
So basically it's the same as before : free stream, free Vods and now we have an English Stream also.
I don't get it why people keep saying "no English commentary", "pay for view" ???? From my eyes Kespa has done what they always did, especially the free stream and free vods make proleague the best league over other paying leagues.
not to mention the 360p free stream still looks alot better than gomtv's free stream >_>
vod uploads were also fast as shit for the two matches we had so far, KT vs EGTL was finished by the time we got into like Game 3 or 4 for SKT vs STX.
Hope they don't put the screws on DoA unnecessarily in their reply post to his comments. Though I can't say that since their arrival in the SC2 scene i've had a good opinion of KeSPA and their actions/comments... but then i've had a GOM.tv sub since open season 1 so I might be a tad bias. I guess we will just have to see what KeSPA say and do over the next few weeks.
The VODs are on Twitch. I've just watched them. Doa and MonteCristo are casting. I did not pay for anything. I don't see a problem, apart from the possibility of no English commentary in future rounds.
"OnGameNet caster DoA, who wrote a distorted, easily misunderstood post based on one-sided misinformation, has apologized for has made a correction. The association plans to immediately respond to the spread of baseless rumors rooted in distorted information."
I hope that means they plan to prove him wrong by having a good english stream going, and not that they're going to burn him at the stake for calling them on their BS. But it is KESPA...so...
On December 08 2012 21:15 kamikami wrote: I don't understand the problem here... I'm out of the circle for a long time, but this morning I checked the stream on TL and there's English commentary, the VODs are also uploaded on Youtube as freevods.
So basically it's the same as before : free stream, free Vods and now we have an English Stream also.
I don't get it why people keep saying "no English commentary", "pay for view" ???? From my eyes Kespa has done what they always did, especially the free stream and free vods make proleague the best league over other paying leagues.
Because a bunch of misinformed people made stupid assumptions and now other idiots are still believing them without actually checking for themselves. Seriously, (for now, at least) we get 360p and all VODs for free, plus 720p for the whole season for only $5. I don't like KeSPA's politics, but this is quite a deal, assuming they don't change stuff starting next week...
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
to be honestly, for many people who aren't English speaker, listen to any of them is fine. I prefer Korean voice for some exciting moments scream out like they always do, much more enjoyable than decent english casters who only knows few words like awesome, cool, omg omg etc... Watching english stream is like watching people play chess with commentary
I paid $5 for the 9 months, while I'm content with the English stream, is there any way to watch the Korean stream in HD? On the day of the event they pulled the youtube stream unless you had a SK IP.
On December 10 2012 08:47 mkfk1 wrote: Is it just me or is there no OSL english website...
Why is there no OSL english website?
Who's going to pay for the English website? I don't think your 5 bucks are enough; it's not even enough for my lunch.
A simple english website to faq what OSL is and direct pages to vods and live stream and such isnt that much to ask.
NBA all league pass is 110 to 220 dollars. Unfair to compare the 2, I know, considering the TV deal and the market of the NBA. But you cant seriously suggested that a simple english website is too expensive to run.
OSL doesnt seen to want to expand the market outside of korea if they cant even afford a website.
On December 08 2012 13:58 UrsusRex wrote: How do you people enjoy this tournament. Listening to the English casters over the Korean casters was pathetic. This whole league felt half assed (excluding player skill). Combine the low production value with eg's performance and we have a league not worth watching.
to be honestly, for many people who aren't English speaker, listen to any of them is fine. I prefer Korean voice for some exciting moments scream out like they always do, much more enjoyable than decent english casters who only knows few words like awesome, cool, omg omg etc... Watching english stream is like watching people play chess with commentary
Not all casters. Fast Forward this to the 12-minute mark.
On December 10 2012 08:47 mkfk1 wrote: Is it just me or is there no OSL english website...
Why is there no OSL english website?
This thread is about proleague. What does it have anything to do with OSL?
Because I have no idea whats the difference. The title of the thread was "KeSPA response to EN broadcast + PL on Twitch.TV". I cant find a OSL english site or OSN english site on google. I have no idea what type of leagues are with OSN. Since MSL was shut down, I am guessing KESPA would mean this is about OSL or OSL associated league.
Which bring back to my question, why is it so hard to find some official information from the hosting network. Shouldnt Blizzard posted these stuff on bnet 2.0 to help grow the esport scene? Where is the OSL or OSN english website?
Dota 2 have a list of leagues and live streams on their UI.
On December 10 2012 10:52 TeslasPigeon wrote: I paid $5 for the 9 months, while I'm content with the English stream, is there any way to watch the Korean stream in HD? On the day of the event they pulled the youtube stream unless you had a SK IP.
Yeah in the OP of every LR thread so far they have linked the OGN korean stream. I listen to that but watch the english one.
Dunno why but I love hearing the korean casters lol.
On December 10 2012 08:47 mkfk1 wrote: Is it just me or is there no OSL english website...
Why is there no OSL english website?
This thread is about proleague. What does it have anything to do with OSL?
Because I have no idea whats the difference. The title of the thread was "KeSPA response to EN broadcast + PL on Twitch.TV". I cant find a OSL english site or OSN english site on google. I have no idea what type of leagues are with OSN. Since MSL was shut down, I am guessing KESPA would mean this is about OSL or OSL associated league.
Which bring back to my question, why is it so hard to find some official information from the hosting network. Shouldnt Blizzard posted these stuff on bnet 2.0 to help grow the esport scene? Where is the OSL or OSN english website?
Dota 2 have a list of leagues and live streams on their UI.
I am just saying...
kespa is the governing body of the korean teams. it's made up of representatives from SKT, CJ, KT, Woongjin, STX, and Samsung parent companies and teams. they regulate their players.
OGN is a broadcasting network. they host the OSL (an individual tournament) and broadcast it.
Proleague is a team tournament sponsored by SK Planet, a subsidiary of SKT. It is broadcast by OGN on cable TV.
as for your question, why there isn't an english OGN website, it's because it's a korean cable channel. you wouldn't expect TNT or AMC (or their british equivalents) to have a korean website, so why would OGN have an english one?
On December 10 2012 10:52 TeslasPigeon wrote: I paid $5 for the 9 months, while I'm content with the English stream, is there any way to watch the Korean stream in HD? On the day of the event they pulled the youtube stream unless you had a SK IP.
Yeah in the OP of every LR thread so far they have linked the OGN korean stream. I listen to that but watch the english one.
Dunno why but I love hearing the korean casters lol.
Alright cool, I'll have to scope out the threads next time.
On December 10 2012 14:45 zergtossy wrote: Yeah so the majority of your now fan base is prolly going to be foreigners.... so lets put them last. smart. The kespa ego is what's wrong here.
On December 10 2012 14:45 zergtossy wrote: Yeah so the majority of your now fan base is prolly going to be foreigners.... so lets put them last. smart. The kespa ego is what's wrong here.
Your ego is what's wrong here. You think you deserve a english website.
On December 10 2012 10:52 TeslasPigeon wrote: I paid $5 for the 9 months, while I'm content with the English stream, is there any way to watch the Korean stream in HD? On the day of the event they pulled the youtube stream unless you had a SK IP.
no sure of youtube vods but i've been watching the live in korean hd for free, in san francisco.
Do people really go to home websites of SC2 organizations? I was under impression that almost nobody went there. I can't imagine somebody going over to NASL website for information that is available here or on Liquipedia.
On December 10 2012 08:47 mkfk1 wrote: Is it just me or is there no OSL english website...
Why is there no OSL english website?
This thread is about proleague. What does it have anything to do with OSL?
Because I have no idea whats the difference. The title of the thread was "KeSPA response to EN broadcast + PL on Twitch.TV". I cant find a OSL english site or OSN english site on google. I have no idea what type of leagues are with OSN. Since MSL was shut down, I am guessing KESPA would mean this is about OSL or OSL associated league.
Which bring back to my question, why is it so hard to find some official information from the hosting network. Shouldnt Blizzard posted these stuff on bnet 2.0 to help grow the esport scene? Where is the OSL or OSN english website?
Dota 2 have a list of leagues and live streams on their UI.
I am just saying...
kespa is the governing body of the korean teams. it's made up of representatives from SKT, CJ, KT, Woongjin, STX, and Samsung parent companies and teams. they regulate their players.
OGN is a broadcasting network. they host the OSL (an individual tournament) and broadcast it.
Proleague is a team tournament sponsored by SK Planet, a subsidiary of SKT. It is broadcast by OGN on cable TV.
as for your question, why there isn't an english OGN website, it's because it's a korean cable channel. you wouldn't expect TNT or AMC (or their british equivalents) to have a korean website, so why would OGN have an english one?
Thanks for the info, but I disagree.
OGN runs OSL like you said. But TNT doesnt run any sport or e sport leagues. Many types of channels exist today with the goal of reaching out to international audiences and expanding their viewers. A good examples would international news channel such as CNN, France 24, BBC, CCTV, PRESS, Deli tv, RT, etc.. It is also noticeable that nowadays, many sports try to expand their market to a global reach, e.x. from F1 to Tennis grand slam to the traditional Olympic and the world cup. Even here in the UK, there are occasional midnight live sporting event from the US big 4. So I do not believed that a Korean channel that runs a major esport league should restricted itself to the korean market. Since kespa players nowadays do compete in non-kepsa governed league. Why the restriction of Kespa run league to korean only audiences? Beside, didnt Blizzard said it themselves that they wish to promote and grow esport? Moreover, I dont see how expensive it would be to run an english website to state some basic info on OGN's esport programs. Is like broadcasting the world cup but wont tell the koreans where to watch it or when to watch it.
Furthermore, whats with the hostility from some members here regarding this topic. OGN and Kespa wont be running anything without the right granted by Blizzard. If anything. I also faulted Blizzard for not doing enough for e sport.
On December 10 2012 08:47 mkfk1 wrote: Is it just me or is there no OSL english website...
Why is there no OSL english website?
This thread is about proleague. What does it have anything to do with OSL?
Because I have no idea whats the difference. The title of the thread was "KeSPA response to EN broadcast + PL on Twitch.TV". I cant find a OSL english site or OSN english site on google. I have no idea what type of leagues are with OSN. Since MSL was shut down, I am guessing KESPA would mean this is about OSL or OSL associated league.
Which bring back to my question, why is it so hard to find some official information from the hosting network. Shouldnt Blizzard posted these stuff on bnet 2.0 to help grow the esport scene? Where is the OSL or OSN english website?
Dota 2 have a list of leagues and live streams on their UI.
I am just saying...
kespa is the governing body of the korean teams. it's made up of representatives from SKT, CJ, KT, Woongjin, STX, and Samsung parent companies and teams. they regulate their players.
OGN is a broadcasting network. they host the OSL (an individual tournament) and broadcast it.
Proleague is a team tournament sponsored by SK Planet, a subsidiary of SKT. It is broadcast by OGN on cable TV.
as for your question, why there isn't an english OGN website, it's because it's a korean cable channel. you wouldn't expect TNT or AMC (or their british equivalents) to have a korean website, so why would OGN have an english one?
Thanks for the info, but I disagree.
OGN runs OSL like you said. But TNT doesnt run any sport or e sport leagues. Many types of channels exist today with the goal of reaching out to international audiences and expanding their viewers. A good examples would international news channel such as CNN, France 24, BBC, CCTV, PRESS, Deli tv, RT, etc.. It is also noticeable that nowadays, many sports try to expand their market to a global reach, e.x. from F1 to Tennis grand slam to the traditional Olympic and the world cup. Even here in the UK, there are occasional midnight live sporting event from the US big 4. So I do not believed that a Korean channel that runs a major esport league should restricted itself to the korean market. Since kespa players nowadays do compete in non-kepsa governed league. Why the restriction of Kespa run league to korean only audiences? Beside, didnt Blizzard said it themselves that they wish to promote and grow esport? Moreover, I dont see how expensive it would be to run an english website to state some basic info on OGN's esport programs. Is like broadcasting the world cup but wont tell the koreans where to watch it or when to watch it.
Furthermore, whats with the hostility from some members here regarding this topic. OGN and Kespa wont be running anything without the right granted by Blizzard. If anything. I also faulted Blizzard for not doing enough for e sport.
To "do stuff" for progaming, you need to get new viewers and keep existing ones. New international viewers would not know OGN ever exists, so english OGN page would do zero good to promote progaming to new audiences. And there is not enough existing ones for it to be worth it to, since people get their infos from teamliquid.net anyway. I can see english OGN page making sense, when there will be enough international people who mostly only watch proleague and dont visit teamliquid.
On December 10 2012 08:47 mkfk1 wrote: Is it just me or is there no OSL english website...
Why is there no OSL english website?
This thread is about proleague. What does it have anything to do with OSL?
Because I have no idea whats the difference. The title of the thread was "KeSPA response to EN broadcast + PL on Twitch.TV". I cant find a OSL english site or OSN english site on google. I have no idea what type of leagues are with OSN. Since MSL was shut down, I am guessing KESPA would mean this is about OSL or OSL associated league.
Which bring back to my question, why is it so hard to find some official information from the hosting network. Shouldnt Blizzard posted these stuff on bnet 2.0 to help grow the esport scene? Where is the OSL or OSN english website?
Dota 2 have a list of leagues and live streams on their UI.
I am just saying...
kespa is the governing body of the korean teams. it's made up of representatives from SKT, CJ, KT, Woongjin, STX, and Samsung parent companies and teams. they regulate their players.
OGN is a broadcasting network. they host the OSL (an individual tournament) and broadcast it.
Proleague is a team tournament sponsored by SK Planet, a subsidiary of SKT. It is broadcast by OGN on cable TV.
as for your question, why there isn't an english OGN website, it's because it's a korean cable channel. you wouldn't expect TNT or AMC (or their british equivalents) to have a korean website, so why would OGN have an english one?
Thanks for the info, but I disagree.
OGN runs OSL like you said. But TNT doesnt run any sport or e sport leagues. Many types of channels exist today with the goal of reaching out to international audiences and expanding their viewers. A good examples would international news channel such as CNN, France 24, BBC, CCTV, PRESS, Deli tv, RT, etc.. It is also noticeable that nowadays, many sports try to expand their market to a global reach, e.x. from F1 to Tennis grand slam to the traditional Olympic and the world cup. Even here in the UK, there are occasional midnight live sporting event from the US big 4. So I do not believed that a Korean channel that runs a major esport league should restricted itself to the korean market. Since kespa players nowadays do compete in non-kepsa governed league. Why the restriction of Kespa run league to korean only audiences? Beside, didnt Blizzard said it themselves that they wish to promote and grow esport? Moreover, I dont see how expensive it would be to run an english website to state some basic info on OGN's esport programs. Is like broadcasting the world cup but wont tell the koreans where to watch it or when to watch it.
Furthermore, whats with the hostility from some members here regarding this topic. OGN and Kespa wont be running anything without the right granted by Blizzard. If anything. I also faulted Blizzard for not doing enough for e sport.
only OGN has really tried to expand into the foreign market, by which i mean china, with their shanghai osl finals. the sponsors of kespa and proleague don't care about nonkoreans/asians because you're not their target demographic. samsung is the only company out of all the kespa sponsors that makes consumer products that foreigners are likely to buy. unless you regularly go to korean supermarkets you're probably not going to buy any CJ food, and you're never going to get phone service from SKT or KT. my own pet theory is that proleague is a circlejerk among the kespa companies, who's got the better team, more money, biggest dick etc, so there's no real reason to expand to foreign markets.
On December 10 2012 08:47 mkfk1 wrote: Is it just me or is there no OSL english website...
Why is there no OSL english website?
This thread is about proleague. What does it have anything to do with OSL?
Because I have no idea whats the difference. The title of the thread was "KeSPA response to EN broadcast + PL on Twitch.TV". I cant find a OSL english site or OSN english site on google. I have no idea what type of leagues are with OSN. Since MSL was shut down, I am guessing KESPA would mean this is about OSL or OSL associated league.
Which bring back to my question, why is it so hard to find some official information from the hosting network. Shouldnt Blizzard posted these stuff on bnet 2.0 to help grow the esport scene? Where is the OSL or OSN english website?
Dota 2 have a list of leagues and live streams on their UI.
I am just saying...
kespa is the governing body of the korean teams. it's made up of representatives from SKT, CJ, KT, Woongjin, STX, and Samsung parent companies and teams. they regulate their players.
OGN is a broadcasting network. they host the OSL (an individual tournament) and broadcast it.
Proleague is a team tournament sponsored by SK Planet, a subsidiary of SKT. It is broadcast by OGN on cable TV.
as for your question, why there isn't an english OGN website, it's because it's a korean cable channel. you wouldn't expect TNT or AMC (or their british equivalents) to have a korean website, so why would OGN have an english one?
Thanks for the info, but I disagree.
OGN runs OSL like you said. But TNT doesnt run any sport or e sport leagues. Many types of channels exist today with the goal of reaching out to international audiences and expanding their viewers. A good examples would international news channel such as CNN, France 24, BBC, CCTV, PRESS, Deli tv, RT, etc.. It is also noticeable that nowadays, many sports try to expand their market to a global reach, e.x. from F1 to Tennis grand slam to the traditional Olympic and the world cup. Even here in the UK, there are occasional midnight live sporting event from the US big 4. So I do not believed that a Korean channel that runs a major esport league should restricted itself to the korean market. Since kespa players nowadays do compete in non-kepsa governed league. Why the restriction of Kespa run league to korean only audiences? Beside, didnt Blizzard said it themselves that they wish to promote and grow esport? Moreover, I dont see how expensive it would be to run an english website to state some basic info on OGN's esport programs. Is like broadcasting the world cup but wont tell the koreans where to watch it or when to watch it.
Furthermore, whats with the hostility from some members here regarding this topic. OGN and Kespa wont be running anything without the right granted by Blizzard. If anything. I also faulted Blizzard for not doing enough for e sport.
may be in time. ogn/kespa has/had no interest in foreign scene, hence why gom tried so hard getting since they cant have much of the korean market.
if this proleague brings good results from foreign market, perhaps we'll see the changes you suggest will happen from kespa, but they're already working on it like MLG.
as for OGN supporting foreign market....that makes zero sense...unless they change around their whole network, dual language, full stream support (instead of selected vods/programs for online). it wouldnt make sense for USA Network channel setting up a full korean website because 1% of their viewers are korean, would it? or NFL setting up a chinese website for chinese gridiron football fans. viewers need to come first, not the nfl organization offering broadcasts in chinese, set up chinese website, then hope they come.