Zerg is the big issue at this point, imo. Really, the only things that still "feel" like zerg units to me are zerglings and mutas. Everything else is way too cost effective (potentially) to be a zerg unit. Roaches are protoss units (zealots with range basically), hydras are either amazing or crap (and have insane dps for a zerg unit), we all know infestors are a joke right now. Brood lords are basically guardians on crack. Ultras are still ok, but they have never been very representative of the race, more an exception rather than the rule. Queens are probably the best 150 minerals you can spend (they are good against everything). Basically, everything is too strong for its cost, or really the units are designed like protoss or terran units, not zerg units. And free units (which only gets worse in HotS). I don't know why Blizzard currently feels like "free units" are zerg-like, because that really means very cost-effective units (again, not zerg). There really isn't an easy way to fix this either, but hopefully we'll see more low-cost, low supply units come out in LotV.
HardlyNever goes through a checklist of why every zerg unit you can name in WoL isn't a zerg unit, based on his arbitrary distinction of what is zerg and what isn't (informed by our collective memory of zerg from BW no doubt). But this amounts to complaining that you don't like the identity of zerg, not that it doesn't have its own identity...??? It's all in your head.
From the perspective of a competitive game system, it doesn't really matter. From the perspective a game meant to sell copies and possibly be a spectator sport, it's certainly a problem if there is dissonance between player/viewer expectation and experience, mediated both by the hard game mechanics and all the cosmetic rubbish. And yes, I know those two things are entangled.
That said, from the perspective of game design, it may be a valid criticism to say: if you set out to make a game with 3 distinct races but you don't have 3 races that feel so very unique and distinct, that's a failure.
Race design isn't some foreigner TL blogger complaining that Zerg doesn't have enough swarmy units.
Agreed.
Huh? I'm not sure what you're talking about. Maybe my reasoning wasn't clear.
Zerg has generally been billed as the race that makes a lot of low cost, low supply units that win through sheer numbers (quantity over quality), but aren't very cost effective, particularly in small numbers. Both zerglings and mutalisks fit this pretty well, that is why I said they still feel "zergy." Ultras were the biggest exception to this rule in BW, and it is fine to have a few units that break this rule in limited amounts.
The problem is that in SC2, most zerg units break this rule now. Roaches not are cost ineffective (although they are sort of supply ineffective). Roaches are strikingly similar to a protoss unit (zealot) in stats. 2 roaches will wreck an equal or close to equal cost of protoss units (stalker) if little to no micro is involved. Queens have absolutely amazing stats for their cost. Infestors and broodlords can be more cost efficient than any other unit/unit combination in the game. That isn't zerg (to me, or the original idea). I remember an old DB interview where he was asked about this, about why zerg didn't feel "zergy" or "swarmy" anymore, and he said they felt that simply remaking units really fast felt "swarmy" enough. I don't feel that way.
Compare the SC2 hydralisk to the BW hydralisk. The hydralisk in BW cost 75 minerals and 25 gas and 1 supply. The hydra in BW wasn't particularly great against anything, but it was ok against most things (sort of like the stalker in sc2). It was good because you could get a lot of them (they were cheap and low supply) and you won through numbers. The hydralisk in sc2 costs 100 minerals, 50 gas and 2 supply. It also has incredibly high dps. It makes up for this by being very fragile. It is an expensive, high damage, high risk (glass cannon) type unit, that actually does better when not massed. It is a hard-counter style unit that crushes some things and is crushed by others. How is that "swarmy?" How is that "zergy?" To me, it isn't. That is just the most concrete example I can give, but there is more than that (scourge come to mind).
I'm not trying to make this a BW > SC2 thing. I genuinely don't feel that way. But zerg isn't zerg right now. They don't win through sheer numbers passed the early game, and that is a problem. So I'd like to ask you, right now, what is the race identity for zerg? It makes stuff fast? What kind of stuff? Can't protoss make stuff just as fast? I honestly don't know what makes zerg "quantity over quality" anymore, and if it isn't that anymore, what is it? And is what it is now really a fair idea?
Edit: I realized several people have said similar things. I don't think the race identity for zerg is very clear right now, and that is what we are struggling with.
On January 06 2013 08:11 StarMoon wrote: Give me my siege tanks back! I play BW half the time because I make tanks in WoL and it makes me sad...
Actually tanks are stronger in sc2 than in bw, unsieged tanks do more dps and siege tanks do just as much dmg to zealots / rines / lings as in bw, then add the smart ai (e.g tanks no longer "overkill" by wasting volleys) And Id say tanks are much stronger in sc2 than in bw.
I like the swarmy feeling of zerg, I like how BL gives a zerg that feeling. however I dont like how incredibly cost inefficient everything except for infestor / bl are.
On January 06 2013 08:11 StarMoon wrote: Give me my siege tanks back! I play BW half the time because I make tanks in WoL and it makes me sad...
Actually tanks are stronger in sc2 than in bw, unsieged tanks do more dps and siege tanks do just as much dmg to zealots / rines / lings as in bw, then add the smart ai (e.g tanks no longer "overkill" by wasting volleys) And Id say tanks are much stronger in sc2 than in bw.
I like the swarmy feeling of zerg, I like how BL gives a zerg that feeling. however I dont like how incredibly cost inefficient everything except for infestor / bl are.
Being good against marines/lings/zealots is a bare minimum requirement. Those are not expensive units relative to the tank and in siege mode tanks should decimate them. They fall off dramatically.
On January 06 2013 08:11 StarMoon wrote: Give me my siege tanks back! I play BW half the time because I make tanks in WoL and it makes me sad...
Actually tanks are stronger in sc2 than in bw, unsieged tanks do more dps and siege tanks do just as much dmg to zealots / rines / lings as in bw, then add the smart ai (e.g tanks no longer "overkill" by wasting volleys) And Id say tanks are much stronger in sc2 than in bw.
I like the swarmy feeling of zerg, I like how BL gives a zerg that feeling. however I dont like how incredibly cost inefficient everything except for infestor / bl are.
Being good against marines/lings/zealots is a bare minimum requirement. Those are not expensive units relative to the tank and in siege mode tanks should decimate them. They fall off dramatically.
I think he has a point vs most Terran and Zerg units. That being said, Tanks don't do full damage to shields anymore which is huge, the "only" 50 damage to stalkers/Immortals/Colossi (70 vs dragoons/reavers) and only 35damage vs archons (instead of 70) is also quite an issue. 3supply tanks instead of 2 doesn't help either, but that is not so much a question of costefficiency vs Protoss, which is the real problem tanks have.
And to mention it: "only" 50damage vs Ultralisk (and Thor) matters as well, mostly in TvZ lategame, when massed ultras can do quite well against tanks outside of chokes.
I disagree with the OP, that races lost identity in thay had in BW. For example, in BW, in TvP, terran for all inteds and purposes was an expensive, powerfull unit, slow deathball style. Just look at it.
Terran: Siege tank, 150min/100gas, goliath 100/50 vulture 75/0, science vessle 100/225 Protos: Zelot 100/0, dragoon 125/50, arbiter 100/350. Terran turtles and pushes with a huge ball of units.
Then, Look at Z, where the major unit was lurker 125/125, which is as expencive as Siege tank, and in many ways similar to it in gameplay. then zerg army had muta as it`s core midgame unit, which was 100/100, and for late game guardian, which was 150/200, devourer 250/150, and ultralisk 200/200, neither of which is fragile, expendable unit.
Hell the early TvZ had ZERG having more expencive and powerfull units, Hydra and Lurker, vs marine medic firebat.
And, the early game ZvP was a match of Hydra vs zelot which cost about same.
Fact is, nor BW, nor SC2 did follow exact guidelines of the races.
The SC2 races are actually way more distinct and unique than SC:BW, in fact races gained a lot of identity.
Protos: they are reliant on technological superiority. Warpgate, force field, Blink, cronoboosting upgrades, and mobility that their superior tech provides.
Zerg: the Swarm. They can literally swarm you with huge numbers of roaches, they have wawes of expendable broodlings infested terrans and locusts, and they are extreemly flexible due to easy tech switch and almost instant remax in different tech tree, if resourses allow. In fact, Infestor -Broodlord is the swarmiest swarm one imagine.
Terran are the flexible ones, so they have mule&Scan&supply depot drop, allowing them better economy when on fewer bases, the ability to scout without having to go out in field, the flexibility of reactors/tech labs, powerfull support of medivacs, ghosts, and in late game Ravens, the PDD&Seaker missle owns soo much.
BW had race identities way less distinct. Terran and Protos were pretty dam similar, powerfull, survivable barracks(due to medics)/gateway mobile units(zelot legs/stim), slow but powefull siege options(siege tank/river), dragoon/goliath, a stealth infantry, dropship, a AA-Splash air unit, a flying caster, a anti-capital ship air unit and a capital ship.
On January 06 2013 06:52 tili wrote: I love this philosophy/approach!
I think Blords ARE necessary to put pressure for zerg, but making them a supplement rather than THE end game should be where design is heading in hots.
Edit: swarm hosts do this as well, but honestly, I wish they gave us another FAST unit, rather than another slow/seige unit... obviously the muta buff is swank.
On January 07 2013 18:32 naastyOne wrote: I disagree with the OP, that races lost identity in thay had in BW. For example, in BW, in TvP, terran for all inteds and purposes was an expensive, powerfull unit, slow deathball style. Just look at it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LzRUZmBXO8
Terran: Siege tank, 150min/100gas, goliath 100/50 vulture 75/0, science vessle 100/225 Protos: Zelot 100/0, dragoon 125/50, arbiter 100/350. Terran turtles and pushes with a huge ball of units.
Then, Look at Z, where the major unit was lurker 125/125, which is as expencive as Siege tank, and in many ways similar to it in gameplay. then zerg army had muta as it`s core midgame unit, which was 100/100, and for late game guardian, which was 150/200, devourer 250/150, and ultralisk 200/200, neither of which is fragile, expendable unit.
Hell the early TvZ had ZERG having more expencive and powerfull units, Hydra and Lurker, vs marine medic firebat.
And, the early game ZvP was a match of Hydra vs zelot which cost about same.
Fact is, nor BW, nor SC2 did follow exact guidelines of the races.
The SC2 races are actually way more distinct and unique than SC:BW, in fact races gained a lot of identity.
Protos: they are reliant on technological superiority. Warpgate, force field, Blink, cronoboosting upgrades, and mobility that their superior tech provides.
Zerg: the Swarm. They can literally swarm you with huge numbers of roaches, they have wawes of expendable broodlings infested terrans and locusts, and they are extreemly flexible due to easy tech switch and almost instant remax in different tech tree, if resourses allow. In fact, Infestor -Broodlord is the swarmiest swarm one imagine.
Terran are the flexible ones, so they have mule&Scan&supply depot drop, allowing them better economy when on fewer bases, the ability to scout without having to go out in field, the flexibility of reactors/tech labs, powerfull support of medivacs, ghosts, and in late game Ravens, the PDD&Seaker missle owns soo much.
BW had race identities way less distinct. Terran and Protos were pretty dam similar, powerfull, survivable barracks(due to medics)/gateway mobile units(zelot legs/stim), slow but powefull siege options(siege tank/river), dragoon/goliath, a stealth infantry, dropship, a AA-Splash air unit, a flying caster, a anti-capital ship air unit and a capital ship.
what???? SC2 races more unique? roach\marauders\stalker, basically the same units.
you also compare reaver to siege, yeah they are exatcly the same...i don't think you have played BW seriously
On January 06 2013 10:53 peanutsfan1995 wrote: OP has some great points. As a Zerg player, I got into the game wanting to swarm opponents, use a ton of lings, apply pressure constantly, and win with a fast, mobile army that weathered away at my opponent. Instead, I turtle up and slowly move out with a deathball.
Are there times when races are played as their original design intended? Of course! But I think that it's pretty clear that the trends are showing constant deviation from this design.
To be fair, nobody forces you to make a deathball. I mean, if you're a grandmasters I'm pretty sure Deathball is too darn effective. But I'm (Low Masters) still using a Ultra, Ling, Bling, Hydra, Infestor composition vs protoss. Ultra to break the forcefields, hydras to kill archons and immortals, blings to kill Zealots and lings to get the surround on the rest. It's not as effective as Broodlord - Infestor, true. But at least it's fun to do.
Anyway, regarding the OP, I agree completely. It just feels completely wrong to be maxed 200/200 supply just by having a few Roaches or Hydralisks. In Broodwar, people usually didn't even REACH the supply cap, or at least it was very rare, especially Zerg. Now, we have lings, blings and drones. For the rest, not a single unit is 1 supply. They're all big fat 2 or more supply units, where is the swarm feeling in that? I'd rather have the hydra and the roach as a weaker 1 supply version as what we have now.
Its still a deathball. Just a deathball consisting of lots of smaller deathballs.
I think its frightening that so many people can talk about deathballs and still have no idea what a deathball is.
Remind me of what a deathball is again then? The army I'm talking about doesn't need to be a maxed army. It's all about killing expansions, being mobile, outmacroing the opponent. Trading costINeffeciently with the opponent, but just having a superior economy. How is that even comparable with a real deathball of Infestor Brood lord, or sky toss or the mech in SC2..? And if that is a deathball, how is that any different from Broodwar where it was just about the same (Especially ZvP and TvP), with the exception of ZvT where it was all about small engagements with melee units, lurkers and defilers.
I honestly don't see the difference, but call me wrong however you like..
On January 06 2013 06:52 tili wrote: I love this philosophy/approach!
I think Blords ARE necessary to put pressure for zerg, but making them a supplement rather than THE end game should be where design is heading in hots.
Edit: swarm hosts do this as well, but honestly, I wish they gave us another FAST unit, rather than another slow/seige unit... obviously the muta buff is swank.
They buffed the living shit out of hydras.
Hydras still 2 supply. Don't like that at all.
I agree, there is no reason at all for hydras to be 2 supply. The limiting factor is their cost anyway. Ever fought with a maxed hydra army against another maxed, standard army? They get completely obliterated because they are so supply inefficient.
I don't think it's the case that adding a unit or two here and there which (in some or even most conditions) doesn't fit the mold for the race will ultimately result in homogenized races. The stalker, for instance, while it is weaker in a straight up fight against a marauder - it's stronger than a number of marines, it has advantages against basically every air unit, and it's extremely mobile. Just saying it loses a straight up fight to one unit type doesn't make it less valuable overall. And sure, BL/infestor is made up of a small number of high tech/expensive units - which doesn't fit the mold for zerg - but they then produce a large number of units which are more or less free (provided you can protect the units spawning them), which do fit the zerg mold.
All the same, I like your argument. It's well articulated, and while I don't agree with the conclusion, you've made a convincing case. In a time where everyone and their mother has "views on game bal.. I mean design", I like that you've made a real argument here.
On January 07 2013 18:32 naastyOne wrote: I disagree with the OP, that races lost identity in thay had in BW. For example, in BW, in TvP, terran for all inteds and purposes was an expensive, powerfull unit, slow deathball style. Just look at it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LzRUZmBXO8
Terran: Siege tank, 150min/100gas, goliath 100/50 vulture 75/0, science vessle 100/225 Protos: Zelot 100/0, dragoon 125/50, arbiter 100/350. Terran turtles and pushes with a huge ball of units.
Then, Look at Z, where the major unit was lurker 125/125, which is as expencive as Siege tank, and in many ways similar to it in gameplay. then zerg army had muta as it`s core midgame unit, which was 100/100, and for late game guardian, which was 150/200, devourer 250/150, and ultralisk 200/200, neither of which is fragile, expendable unit.
Hell the early TvZ had ZERG having more expencive and powerfull units, Hydra and Lurker, vs marine medic firebat.
And, the early game ZvP was a match of Hydra vs zelot which cost about same.
Fact is, nor BW, nor SC2 did follow exact guidelines of the races.
The SC2 races are actually way more distinct and unique than SC:BW, in fact races gained a lot of identity.
Protos: they are reliant on technological superiority. Warpgate, force field, Blink, cronoboosting upgrades, and mobility that their superior tech provides.
Zerg: the Swarm. They can literally swarm you with huge numbers of roaches, they have wawes of expendable broodlings infested terrans and locusts, and they are extreemly flexible due to easy tech switch and almost instant remax in different tech tree, if resourses allow. In fact, Infestor -Broodlord is the swarmiest swarm one imagine.
Terran are the flexible ones, so they have mule&Scan&supply depot drop, allowing them better economy when on fewer bases, the ability to scout without having to go out in field, the flexibility of reactors/tech labs, powerfull support of medivacs, ghosts, and in late game Ravens, the PDD&Seaker missle owns soo much.
BW had race identities way less distinct. Terran and Protos were pretty dam similar, powerfull, survivable barracks(due to medics)/gateway mobile units(zelot legs/stim), slow but powefull siege options(siege tank/river), dragoon/goliath, a stealth infantry, dropship, a AA-Splash air unit, a flying caster, a anti-capital ship air unit and a capital ship.
well toss cant really use the mobility of their superior tech, because all of their units are more or less slow. what's building their army core are two incredibly fragile units (stalker, sentry) and a disposable unit that is just supposed to eat as many shots as possible. colossi and hts fit the manly criteria, but for mobility through technology you are just looking at the wrong race. toss has become a race that depends on their high tech-support units, because their basic units are weak on their own, similar to what you describe terran should be like. on the other hand bio has pretty much become what toss was in bw, having strong core units and increasing their mobility and support through tech. bio is more manly and heroic than every gateway unit, and more mobile by the way, the core criteria of what toss is supposed to be now.
mass-zergling is the swarmiest composition i can imagine. yes, inf/blord can create tons of disposable units, but seriously none of these are scary or ferocious in any way, half of them are even using an automatic rifle, how "un-zergy" is that? Zerg is supposed to be the unstoppable, all devouring swarm and none of their new units is anywhere close to scary. And inf/blord is terribly immobile which is strange for a composition of genetically optimizing predators.
I chose Zerg because I wanted to overwhelm my opponent with sheer numbers. The thought of spreading creep and having hundreds and hundreds of army pieces is something that I really wanted when I bought the game (having never played the original before mind you).
I wouldn't say I'm let down, but it isn't exactly what I got. Sure zergling+baneling+mutalisk is a strong strategy and can give you that overwhelming feeling when you trap a group of marines and explode them with green ooze, it's short lived and isn't as overwhelming as I originally envisioned. Sure there are ways to spawn in a ton of fake supply (Broodlings from Broodlords and Infested Terrans from Infestors), they don't have the same feeling.
I don't think that swarm hosts really fill this hole either, as they are still just temporary units.
On January 07 2013 18:32 naastyOne wrote: The SC2 races are actually way more distinct and unique than SC:BW, in fact races gained a lot of identity.
AHAHAhaha Man in brood war even WORKERS have their differences : SCVs are super beefy, PROBES have range 2 and you can Micro DRONES like any other unit ( fast attack animation, insta damage, and they handle well ). Also probes mine slightly faster ( which i belive is due to acceleration speed, not sure tho so don't quote me on that ).
And the game is still fairly balanced even with those racial differences. Of course they also had their own racial features like how scvs can be repaired, drones heal and probes have shield.
Because of that you get to see really cool things like, putting two zealots on a ramp to block it ( yes you can block a ramp using only two zealots ) and put a probe right behind each zealot, and thanks to their range of two they would be able to attack behind the two zealots shielding them, and the extra dps of the probe gives you more damage output than if you didn't have said probes but had a +1 attack on the zealots. That means your zeals can basically two shot probes. This is a cool trick made possible by the fact that BW races are actually way more distinct and unique than their SC2 counterpart.
The flexibility of the terran race is one of the greatest things about this game. Against a zerg you would usually open bio ( 9min timing with MnM + tank + vessel or 5 rax +1 ) and often transition into mech in the mid game, usually after your bio helped you secure a good position on the map. This isn't because players just like to play bio, this is mostly because opening with bio is generally a more eifficient way to play. Which AGAIN doesn't mean you that you CAN'T open with mech ... Against protoss however, the eifficiency of bio is abymal once past the midgame, that is why you generally don't make more than 4 marines in a TvP unless you're planning on doing some crazy aggression earlygame or an allin midgame. That is why you go for mech.
Zerg is usually behind terran in supply when the terran plays bio ( by around 10 - 15 supply ). But against protoss the zerg player tends to be the one relying on cheap units ( hydras ).
Now let me break down a standard TvZ for you : terran makes barracks while zerg makes hatch ( Technically you could say T has the initiative but can't really do much of anything ) ; then terran gets a CC while the zerg finishes his spawning pool ( at this point the zerg can just produce more lings than the terran can make marines and T is on the defensive, as zergs sometimes produce a bunch of lings and try to do a bit of damage, T usually blocks his ramp with two SCVs and marines behind it when this happens ) . Then terran gets his academy, which means firebat / medics are available and +1 range / stim becomes researchable ( Thus giving back terran the ability to do something if the zerg went for 3 hatch muta, what happens here is usually terran moves out with a control group of units comprising many marines and one or two medics + one firebat. He then gets outside the zerg's natural with this small army, thus forcing the zerg to stay in his base, and also forcing him to make 3 sunkens. That gives terran map control back, as zerg is now on the defensive. ). Zerg then gets his tech up ( usually mutas, or, if you're Pike, usually lurkers ) and terran is forced back ( Stimming marines and right clicking on ONE muta to try and snipe them, making turrets in his base, usually 2 by 2, around barracks, around mineral line in natural etc etc. ). Then terran gets his vessels and tanks, and his bio army is larger, he can irradiate + stim against mutas or irradiate + tank against lurkers ( At this point the terran has the initiative back and can retake the map, while the zerg usually has his lurker tech barely finishing up and 2 or 3 lurkers at his third base which is usually another main instead of the closest third, so that he can benefit from the small ramp and defend his base with only 2 - 3 lurkers instead of needing a whole army ). Then the zerg gets his hive tech up ( defilers ) and we reach somewhat of a stalemate where the zerg army is slightly better ( againts terran bio tank vessel ) mainly thanks to dark swarm, but the difference is not big enough for zerg to just steamroll the terran, and they can actually fight somewhat evenly while terran switches to mech ( siege tank splash damage and vulture mines do damage under swarm and allow the terran to retain some map control while still having the mobility of the vultures to harass )
TL;DR
You make it sound black and white and purposefully omit things which are obvious to anyone who's atually watched some brood war. Most people who actually know those things probably think they are good ( yes it is a big assumption but seeing how most people seem like they want SC2 to be more like brood war, it is not unreasonnable ). I think the kind back and forth i mentionned in the spoilers, where each player gains and loose the initiative ( and the opportunities that come with it at different timings ) is very beneficial to the game, gives the players opportunities to gain small edges through good control ( good muta micro doing more damage than average / good defense against mutas or being more / less aggressive early on with the MnM etc etc ... ) as opposed to SC2's lack of action early game and general turtle play in most machups. Especially seeing how people seemed to like and miss old, action-packed SC2 TvZ ( before Blizzard gives zerg the ability to fend off almost any early game attack by simply making more queendralysks ) of a couple of patches ago. ( There was a handful of polls asking people about their favorite matchups to play / watch and SC2 TvZ was ahead of all the other SC2 matchups, possibly even ahead of the brood war ones, which wouldn't surprise me as i don't belive all the voters actually play / watch brood war )
I picked Zerg originally because of the way I wanted to play the game, with the quick swarmy style and being all over the map and whatnot.
However now, I feel like I'm forced into playing the Infestor-Broodlord style (I hate the infestor always no matter what I'm using it with - Fungal Growth is not fun to use imo) eventually in every matchup, and this is the exact opposite of what I would like to be doing. As a result I find myself using strategies that are mostly out of date and less powerful than current Zerg strategies, which is frustrating but gets me by
On January 07 2013 18:32 naastyOne wrote: I disagree with the OP, that races lost identity in thay had in BW. For example, in BW, in TvP, terran for all inteds and purposes was an expensive, powerfull unit, slow deathball style. Just look at it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LzRUZmBXO8
Terran: Siege tank, 150min/100gas, goliath 100/50 vulture 75/0, science vessle 100/225 Protos: Zelot 100/0, dragoon 125/50, arbiter 100/350. Terran turtles and pushes with a huge ball of units.
Then, Look at Z, where the major unit was lurker 125/125, which is as expencive as Siege tank, and in many ways similar to it in gameplay. then zerg army had muta as it`s core midgame unit, which was 100/100, and for late game guardian, which was 150/200, devourer 250/150, and ultralisk 200/200, neither of which is fragile, expendable unit.
Hell the early TvZ had ZERG having more expencive and powerfull units, Hydra and Lurker, vs marine medic firebat.
And, the early game ZvP was a match of Hydra vs zelot which cost about same.
Fact is, nor BW, nor SC2 did follow exact guidelines of the races.
The SC2 races are actually way more distinct and unique than SC:BW, in fact races gained a lot of identity.
Protos: they are reliant on technological superiority. Warpgate, force field, Blink, cronoboosting upgrades, and mobility that their superior tech provides.
Zerg: the Swarm. They can literally swarm you with huge numbers of roaches, they have wawes of expendable broodlings infested terrans and locusts, and they are extreemly flexible due to easy tech switch and almost instant remax in different tech tree, if resourses allow. In fact, Infestor -Broodlord is the swarmiest swarm one imagine.
Terran are the flexible ones, so they have mule&Scan&supply depot drop, allowing them better economy when on fewer bases, the ability to scout without having to go out in field, the flexibility of reactors/tech labs, powerfull support of medivacs, ghosts, and in late game Ravens, the PDD&Seaker missle owns soo much.
BW had race identities way less distinct. Terran and Protos were pretty dam similar, powerfull, survivable barracks(due to medics)/gateway mobile units(zelot legs/stim), slow but powefull siege options(siege tank/river), dragoon/goliath, a stealth infantry, dropship, a AA-Splash air unit, a flying caster, a anti-capital ship air unit and a capital ship.
what???? SC2 races more unique? roach\marauders\stalker, basically the same units.
you also compare reaver to siege, yeah they are exatcly the same...i don't think you have played BW seriously
Lol, in that case vulture, hydralisk and dragoon from BW are also exactly same.
But since aperently that is all you manage to say, you may want to formulate your point better.
On January 07 2013 18:32 naastyOne wrote: I disagree with the OP, that races lost identity in thay had in BW. For example, in BW, in TvP, terran for all inteds and purposes was an expensive, powerfull unit, slow deathball style. Just look at it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LzRUZmBXO8
Terran: Siege tank, 150min/100gas, goliath 100/50 vulture 75/0, science vessle 100/225 Protos: Zelot 100/0, dragoon 125/50, arbiter 100/350. Terran turtles and pushes with a huge ball of units.
Then, Look at Z, where the major unit was lurker 125/125, which is as expencive as Siege tank, and in many ways similar to it in gameplay. then zerg army had muta as it`s core midgame unit, which was 100/100, and for late game guardian, which was 150/200, devourer 250/150, and ultralisk 200/200, neither of which is fragile, expendable unit.
Hell the early TvZ had ZERG having more expencive and powerfull units, Hydra and Lurker, vs marine medic firebat.
And, the early game ZvP was a match of Hydra vs zelot which cost about same.
Fact is, nor BW, nor SC2 did follow exact guidelines of the races.
The SC2 races are actually way more distinct and unique than SC:BW, in fact races gained a lot of identity.
Protos: they are reliant on technological superiority. Warpgate, force field, Blink, cronoboosting upgrades, and mobility that their superior tech provides.
Zerg: the Swarm. They can literally swarm you with huge numbers of roaches, they have wawes of expendable broodlings infested terrans and locusts, and they are extreemly flexible due to easy tech switch and almost instant remax in different tech tree, if resourses allow. In fact, Infestor -Broodlord is the swarmiest swarm one imagine.
Terran are the flexible ones, so they have mule&Scan&supply depot drop, allowing them better economy when on fewer bases, the ability to scout without having to go out in field, the flexibility of reactors/tech labs, powerfull support of medivacs, ghosts, and in late game Ravens, the PDD&Seaker missle owns soo much.
BW had race identities way less distinct. Terran and Protos were pretty dam similar, powerfull, survivable barracks(due to medics)/gateway mobile units(zelot legs/stim), slow but powefull siege options(siege tank/river), dragoon/goliath, a stealth infantry, dropship, a AA-Splash air unit, a flying caster, a anti-capital ship air unit and a capital ship.
well toss cant really use the mobility of their superior tech, because all of their units are more or less slow. what's building their army core are two incredibly fragile units (stalker, sentry) and a disposable unit that is just supposed to eat as many shots as possible. colossi and hts fit the manly criteria, but for mobility through technology you are just looking at the wrong race. toss has become a race that depends on their high tech-support units, because their basic units are weak on their own, similar to what you describe terran should be like. on the other hand bio has pretty much become what toss was in bw, having strong core units and increasing their mobility and support through tech. bio is more manly and heroic than every gateway unit, and more mobile by the way, the core criteria of what toss is supposed to be now.
mass-zergling is the swarmiest composition i can imagine. yes, inf/blord can create tons of disposable units, but seriously none of these are scary or ferocious in any way, half of them are even using an automatic rifle, how "un-zergy" is that? Zerg is supposed to be the unstoppable, all devouring swarm and none of their new units is anywhere close to scary. And inf/blord is terribly immobile which is strange for a composition of genetically optimizing predators.
Let`s face it, compared to siege tank leapfroging and infestor-broodlord, Protos army is more mobile and reinforces faster.
Oh, you mean infested terran and broodlings are not scary in numbers? Lol and untrue.
On January 07 2013 18:32 naastyOne wrote: The SC2 races are actually way more distinct and unique than SC:BW, in fact races gained a lot of identity.
AHAHAhaha Man in brood war even WORKERS have their differences : SCVs are super beefy, PROBES have range 2 and you can Micro DRONES like any other unit ( fast attack animation, insta damage, and they handle well ). Also probes mine slightly faster ( which i belive is due to acceleration speed, not sure tho so don't quote me on that ).
And the game is still fairly balanced even with those racial differences. Of course they also had their own racial features like how scvs can be repaired, drones heal and probes have shield.
Because of that you get to see really cool things like, putting two zealots on a ramp to block it ( yes you can block a ramp using only two zealots ) and put a probe right behind each zealot, and thanks to their range of two they would be able to attack behind the two zealots shielding them, and the extra dps of the probe gives you more damage output than if you didn't have said probes but had a +1 attack on the zealots. That means your zeals can basically two shot probes. This is a cool trick made possible by the fact that BW races are actually way more distinct and unique than their SC2 counterpart.
Oh, really that is such a huge difference. Obvoiusly reingorcement and macro mechanics are nothing in comparison.
On January 08 2013 05:45 Marti wrote: Now let me break down a standard TvZ for you : terran makes barracks while zerg makes hatch ( Technically you could say T has the initiative but can't really do much of anything ) ; then terran gets a CC while the zerg finishes his spawning pool ( at this point the zerg can just produce more lings than the terran can make marines and T is on the defensive, as zergs sometimes produce a bunch of lings and try to do a bit of damage, T usually blocks his ramp with two SCVs and marines behind it when this happens ) . Then terran gets his academy, which means firebat / medics are available and +1 range / stim becomes researchable ( Thus giving back terran the ability to do something if the zerg went for 3 hatch muta, what happens here is usually terran moves out with a control group of units comprising many marines and one or two medics + one firebat. He then gets outside the zerg's natural with this small army, thus forcing the zerg to stay in his base, and also forcing him to make 3 sunkens. That gives terran map control back, as zerg is now on the defensive. ). Zerg then gets his tech up ( usually mutas, or, if you're Pike, usually lurkers ) and terran is forced back ( Stimming marines and right clicking on ONE muta to try and snipe them, making turrets in his base, usually 2 by 2, around barracks, around mineral line in natural etc etc. ). Then terran gets his vessels and tanks, and his bio army is larger, he can irradiate + stim against mutas or irradiate + tank against lurkers ( At this point the terran has the initiative back and can retake the map, while the zerg usually has his lurker tech barely finishing up and 2 or 3 lurkers at his third base which is usually another main instead of the closest third, so that he can benefit from the small ramp and defend his base with only 2 - 3 lurkers instead of needing a whole army ). Then the zerg gets his hive tech up ( defilers ) and we reach somewhat of a stalemate where the zerg army is slightly better ( againts terran bio tank vessel ) mainly thanks to dark swarm, but the difference is not big enough for zerg to just steamroll the terran, and they can actually fight somewhat evenly while terran switches to mech ( siege tank splash damage and vulture mines do damage under swarm and allow the terran to retain some map control while still having the mobility of the vultures to harass TL;DR
You make it sound black and white and purposefully omit things which are obvious to anyone who's atually watched some brood war. Most people who actually know those things probably think they are good ( yes it is a big assumption but seeing how most people seem like they want SC2 to be more like brood war, it is not unreasonnable ). I think the kind back and forth i mentionned in the spoilers, where each player gains and loose the initiative ( and the opportunities that come with it at different timings ) is very beneficial to the game, gives the players opportunities to gain small edges through good control ( good muta micro doing more damage than average / good defense against mutas or being more / less aggressive early on with the MnM etc etc ... ) as opposed to SC2's lack of action early game and general turtle play in most machups. Especially seeing how people seemed to like and miss old, action-packed SC2 TvZ ( before Blizzard gives zerg the ability to fend off almost any early game attack by simply making more queendralysks ) of a couple of patches ago. ( There was a handful of polls asking people about their favorite matchups to play / watch and SC2 TvZ was ahead of all the other SC2 matchups, possibly even ahead of the brood war ones, which wouldn't surprise me as i don't belive all the voters actually play / watch brood war )
So, you whote a wall of text, but didn`t manage to even make a point, which was about BW races not complying with the "cheap swarmy"/"flexible"/"expencive&strong" design anyhow, and often having it switched numerous times withing matchup.
Now ofcourse i could lecture you on the SC2 TvZ both with mech and bio, TvP of MMMVG, and PvZ with skytoss, roach 12min max, Roach-Hydra, and ofcourse zerling->infestor ->broodlord/ultralisk into mothership-carrier but it is still more playstyles than BW.
Though I agree with your post, I don't really know what blizzard could do to fix this (other than a total rehaul of zerg and toss).
When I first played sc2 I wanted zerg to be this swarm race that required lots of ling run bys and early aggression. Ironically zerg is the WORST race for any early aggression and if you stay on T2 units past the 14 min mark against toss, you get steamrolled by collosi/stalker deathballs.
The queens only emphasised the problems by allowing zergs to safely turtle up against pretty much anything.
In order to fix this i would implement the following changes:
Zerg Make zerglings weaker but allow for 3 to be made per larve (at the cost of 1 supply) Make bainlings cost 50 gas but no minerals (so there is more for swarm) Reduce queen range Make spine crawlers weaker Would change fungle to a spell possibly called "infect" that would act similar to irradiate in BW. Cast it on 1 opponent unit and it would weaken that unit (lowering it's health and speed) and units in close proximity would begin to experience the same effects. Would increase maximum unit supply to 250 for zerg only Remove Broodlords
By increasing the number of zerglings you get for 1 supply to 3, you would create larger more intimidating armies for the zerg. The bainling change would mean that the zerg would have to invest more heavily in bainlings, but still have minerals to create more swarm units. The slight buff to zerglings would remove the need for queens to have extra range and the spinecrawler nerf would still allow them to defend against early helion aggression while minimizing the effectiveness of spine fields in lategame ZvP. The fungle change is to allow the zerg units to better swarm over the opponent without removing the opponents ability to micro.
The most important change however would be the supply cap increase. This would allow the zergs to mass incredibly large armies, but they would also have access to 1 less tier 3 unit (by removing the broodlord).
Protoss
I'm not an expert on toss, and I am not going to pretend that I know how to balance them around the above zerg changes.
However I would say that warp gate could be removed, but stalkers given a stronger shield and maybe higher attack. I would also change how the collosi works, and make their beams slower but more powerful so that you can micro out of them (not my idea, there is a post about it somewhere)
I hope you like these ideas and I'm sure there are alot of issues I havn't considered... but hopefully the core concepts are good.
I chose Terran to want to mech and be like the human race when i first started sc2. Loved tanks at release but not as much now but I love the utility and strength of tanks with good positioning.
I tried all the races while I was learning the game; Prolly played Toss the second longest for like 6-8 months cause I thought Khaydarin amulet was op...but I didn't enjoy it as much so moved back to Terran <3