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On January 07 2013 17:03 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 16:46 mongmong wrote: If he is truly code S level then he shouldve gone 5-0 to all his opponents like LiquidHero did last season. Even so, Hero's run ended in ro32 by soulkey and curious.A true Code S level player doesnt fail twice in up and downs. Call me a sadist, but im extremely gladthat he didnt make it and dont have to see any more blind Flash fanboys going "oh my GOD he is making everyone look like a noob"
So if you don't 5-0 your U&D group you're not truly code S level? Really?
Not really implying he isnt Code S, but he's blown his opportunity TWICE. If Flash really wanted to prove that he is code S level player he should have, but couldnt. Why lose to MC by being ridiculously greedy when he already knows that MC is super aggressive? Flash fanboys need to wait until HOTS comes out because this season's GSL is the last they play on WOL.
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On January 07 2013 18:09 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 13:55 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 13:39 SupLilSon wrote:On January 07 2013 12:59 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 12:45 SupLilSon wrote:On January 07 2013 12:32 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 12:25 SupLilSon wrote:On January 07 2013 11:19 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days. There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all. Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all. There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion. You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S. So you think the qualification system should be better and more indepth...or what? The ones who win their games are the ones who get into Code S, how are they not the best? So each GSL winner is automatically the best player on earth? More than a few champions and tons of runner ups have fallen off, some rather quickly and others over time. No I don't think the GSL system needs to be more in depth. Obviously getting to Code S is a major accomplishment, I'm not trying to downplay that fact. I think BaBy was one of the worse opponents for him to face and given a different draw he could have made it to Code S. If each season's Code S solidly defined the top players then threads like this wouldn't exist, no? I have no idea what this has to do with what you said originally, but to answer your question, winning GSL means you are the best player in that season. Since the GSL is the hardest league it makes you the best player until the next season. Sure, Flash could win games in code s and go far potentially, why not. I just don't understand why you said GSL doesn't show the best players, because the best player ( Life ) is in Code S, and winning GSL twice made him the best player. From the limited games I've seen of Flash, his macro can look almost unparalleled. Let me clarify, Flash as of this instant might not be a top25 player in the world. BUT I think his mechanics easily give him of the strongest foundations of any SC2 player out there. My top 5 for Terran would probably look something like Flash, Fantasy, BaBy, Bogus, Taeja. Sorry to the eSF Terrans but I really think they will be surpassed once these guys fully flesh out their game knowledge and star2 sense. Once Cyborg Mvp's wrist and neck parts are replaced, he'll still probably be better than Flash, Bogus, Baby and Taeja.
I'm actually more impressed with Fantasy, who seems to be improving at a much steadier rate than Flash, and has constantly been beating him whenever they're matched up as of late.
Flash said to wait a year until he gets used to the whole SCII interface and such though, so once his analysis is complete, that's probably the moment when we should do this type of thread.
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On January 07 2013 18:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 18:34 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On January 07 2013 18:22 Grend wrote: not too long until code s becomes a bad metric imo What will replace it? Still has the best players and the best format. I personally don't think the BO1 teamleagues on imbalanced strange maps should be given much weight if that's where you're headed. Cannot quote this enough. Flash did play amazingly vs EGTL, especially the game vs HerO impressed me but as you said, it's a Bo1. GSL is the hardest championship for a reason.
Proleague isn't BO1, it's technically BO7.
GSL is the hardest championship, and yet it has been won by such illustrious talents as jjakji, Seed and Sniper. Unless your name is mvp, there's a lot of luck and randomness in the results and they're not always a measure of talent and skill. Creator couldn't make it to Code S for a year during his prime, neither could Bomber, and Yonghwa still can't. Parting only made it to RO4 once iirc.
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On January 07 2013 18:57 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 18:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 07 2013 18:34 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On January 07 2013 18:22 Grend wrote: not too long until code s becomes a bad metric imo What will replace it? Still has the best players and the best format. I personally don't think the BO1 teamleagues on imbalanced strange maps should be given much weight if that's where you're headed. Cannot quote this enough. Flash did play amazingly vs EGTL, especially the game vs HerO impressed me but as you said, it's a Bo1. GSL is the hardest championship for a reason. Proleague isn't BO1, it's technically BO7. GSL is the hardest championship, and yet it has been won by such illustrious talents as jjakji, Seed and Sniper. Unless your name is mvp, there's a lot of luck and randomness in the results and they're not always a measure of talent and skill. Creator couldn't make it to Code S for a year during his prime, neither could Bomber, and Yonghwa still can't. Parting only made it to RO4 once iirc.
That's right, I'm not denying that winning GSL is the most difficult feat, however, there is such an amazing lack of statistical consistency (apart from one player) that it makes it a doubtful metric.
What I'm saying is that it's easy to say how good a player is "now", but very hard to predict how good he will be. SC2 rankings so far has been nothing short of a rollercoaster ride.
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On January 07 2013 19:02 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 18:57 Talin wrote:On January 07 2013 18:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 07 2013 18:34 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On January 07 2013 18:22 Grend wrote: not too long until code s becomes a bad metric imo What will replace it? Still has the best players and the best format. I personally don't think the BO1 teamleagues on imbalanced strange maps should be given much weight if that's where you're headed. Cannot quote this enough. Flash did play amazingly vs EGTL, especially the game vs HerO impressed me but as you said, it's a Bo1. GSL is the hardest championship for a reason. Proleague isn't BO1, it's technically BO7. GSL is the hardest championship, and yet it has been won by such illustrious talents as jjakji, Seed and Sniper. Unless your name is mvp, there's a lot of luck and randomness in the results and they're not always a measure of talent and skill. Creator couldn't make it to Code S for a year during his prime, neither could Bomber, and Yonghwa still can't. Parting only made it to RO4 once iirc. That's right, I'm not denying that winning GSL is the most difficult feat, however, there is such an amazing lack of statistical consistency (apart from one player) that it makes it a doubtful metric. What I'm saying is that it's easy to say how good a player is "now", but very hard to predict how good he will be. SC2 rankings so far has been nothing short of a rollercoaster ride.
Eh MVP/Nestea were very consistent for a year. Even in BW there weren't many players who were consistent for longer then a year. Flash/Jaedong were one of the few who could do consistently well for multiple years.
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Austria24413 Posts
On January 07 2013 18:57 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 18:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 07 2013 18:34 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On January 07 2013 18:22 Grend wrote: not too long until code s becomes a bad metric imo What will replace it? Still has the best players and the best format. I personally don't think the BO1 teamleagues on imbalanced strange maps should be given much weight if that's where you're headed. Cannot quote this enough. Flash did play amazingly vs EGTL, especially the game vs HerO impressed me but as you said, it's a Bo1. GSL is the hardest championship for a reason. Proleague isn't BO1, it's technically BO7. GSL is the hardest championship, and yet it has been won by such illustrious talents as jjakji, Seed and Sniper. Unless your name is mvp, there's a lot of luck and randomness in the results and they're not always a measure of talent and skill. Creator couldn't make it to Code S for a year during his prime, neither could Bomber, and Yonghwa still can't. Parting only made it to RO4 once iirc.
I kind of agree with that overall but not about the luck and randomness part. What makes Code S so hard in my eyes is that all of those players are insanely good and everybody can pretty much beat anybody, depending on their performance. That does make some results seem random but they're really not. You have to be at the very top of your game every single time you play in Code S or it will punish you. There's a reason why players like Creator, Bomber and Yonghwa were/are not Code S regulars and it's their consistency. Even Parting wasn't consistently as good as he is right now.
So, coming back to Flash, he's one of those players with extreme potential but right now I I think he's one of those who's just a little too inconsistent as of right now. No doubt in my mind that he'll get there though.
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Flash is code s level guys. Its not like Flash is the only code s level player in code a anyway, YongHwa had a bad day, and Rain isn't even in code a, but hes pretty good right?
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Never watched BW, but I'm now a self-confessed Flash fanboy!! Never seen such God-like play in SC2...
Interesting times, many thanks to these KeSPA pros.
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From what I've seen yesterday, he's code S level or really close to it. His TvP is monstruous (when he isn't unnecessarily greedy), and his TvT was so-so a couple weeks back and has apparently become sick good as well.
The only matchup I'm more skeptical about is his TvZ.
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On January 07 2013 19:13 DarkLordOlli wrote: I kind of agree with that overall but not about the luck and randomness part. What makes Code S so hard in my eyes is that all of those players are insanely good and everybody can pretty much beat anybody, depending on their performance. That does make some results seem random but they're really not. You have to be at the very top of your game every single time you play in Code S or it will punish you. There's a reason why players like Creator, Bomber and Yonghwa were/are not Code S regulars and it's their consistency. Even Parting wasn't consistently as good as he is right now.
Seed, Sniper and jjakji were nowhere near consistent either, and yet they still won it. They weren't at the top of their game every single time, and even if some were, their runs were littered with mad luck in more than one game along the way.
There's no specific reason why Creator, Bomber and Parting didn't do it instead (and had difficulties even qualifying). There's certainly nothing in their play that was more lacking than the 3 players above, they didn't have more flaws in their play than those winners had, and they all had them.
It just didn't turn out that way, that's the only reason.
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On January 07 2013 17:29 Sc2Null wrote: Over-hyped is an understatement. Any pro-gamer in korea can beat another in a bo1 which is what mostly proleague is; yet he can't win in the U&D? I wouldn't be surprised to see him fall out of code A this season.
"Anyone can beat anyone in a Bo1" "He lost two games in a format that's Bo1? I can see him falling out of code A this season"
That is some good logic there.
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On January 07 2013 09:28 dbg wrote: hes the best terran player in the world
thats why he lost in up and down with place 4 and code A now jaeh sure
nono he is REALLY good you saw vs egtl but you still lacks in alot of confidence so i think he needs more month atm he is someone who can be code s but not nessaccary must be in it
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he is a really good code a player. i can't imagine the weight on his shoulders because of the expectations. it must be really stressfull, but he is improving really fast. i think coming out of nowhere and winning against everyone like Life did is easier. if you are a famous player like Flash, everyone will want to win against you even more.
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Austria24413 Posts
On January 07 2013 19:25 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 19:13 DarkLordOlli wrote: I kind of agree with that overall but not about the luck and randomness part. What makes Code S so hard in my eyes is that all of those players are insanely good and everybody can pretty much beat anybody, depending on their performance. That does make some results seem random but they're really not. You have to be at the very top of your game every single time you play in Code S or it will punish you. There's a reason why players like Creator, Bomber and Yonghwa were/are not Code S regulars and it's their consistency. Even Parting wasn't consistently as good as he is right now. Seed, Sniper and jjakji were nowhere near consistent either, and yet they still won it. They weren't at the top of their game every single time, and even if some were, their runs were littered with mad luck in more than one game along the way. There's no specific reason why Creator, Bomber and Parting didn't do it instead (and had difficulties even qualifying). There's certainly nothing in their play that was more lacking than the 3 players above, they didn't have more flaws in their play than those winners had, and they all had them. It just didn't turn out that way, that's the only reason.
Actually, Seed, Jjakji and Sniper were extremely consistent during their run through GSL. None of them had any luck in draws, their wins were legit because they were sick good at the time. Bomber, Yonghwa are notorious for being inconsistent. Hell, most TL users associate Bomber with a) sick macro and b) owning everybody until he gets to Code S, only to play nowhere near his potential, get bombed out and do the same thing again. Almost the same for Yonghwa and Code A. Parting got killed 3-0 by DRG, got too cocky vs an in form Mvp and other than that just wasn't consistent enough. On the other hand you have multiple-time GSL champions like MC, Mvp and Nestea who were extremely consistent during that time, hence their titles. GSL is all about consistency, even if it's just for a single season. Some players have shown that being super consistent for one season is enough to take a GSl championship.
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On January 07 2013 18:52 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 17:03 GolemMadness wrote:On January 07 2013 16:46 mongmong wrote: If he is truly code S level then he shouldve gone 5-0 to all his opponents like LiquidHero did last season. Even so, Hero's run ended in ro32 by soulkey and curious.A true Code S level player doesnt fail twice in up and downs. Call me a sadist, but im extremely gladthat he didnt make it and dont have to see any more blind Flash fanboys going "oh my GOD he is making everyone look like a noob"
So if you don't 5-0 your U&D group you're not truly code S level? Really? Not really implying he isnt Code S, but he's blown his opportunity TWICE. If Flash really wanted to prove that he is code S level player he should have, but couldnt. Why lose to MC by being ridiculously greedy when he already knows that MC is super aggressive? Flash fanboys need to wait until HOTS comes out because this season's GSL is the last they play on WOL.
What do you mean you aren't implying it? You literally just said that if he were truly code S level he would have gone 5-0. That's not implying he isn't; it's just saying he isn't. Making one oversight in one game which prevents you from getting into code S doesn't mean that you aren't at that level. That's just silly.
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Starcraft 2 people judging Flash... step out of his way. Flash wasn't god when he touched Starcraft Broodwar to begin with, he worked his way there. Just watch him progress.
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On January 07 2013 18:22 Surili wrote: I don't really think much for the macro of someone who goes CC first in almost every game, not that there is anything particularly wrong with that from a players perspective, it is the fault of his opponents for not punishing him like MC did, but OF COURSE he is going to get ahead of his opponents in macro if he goes CC first against Gate-Core nexus...
People don't seems to be talking about this facet enough :/
It's not like going 14CC has a cumulative effect which makes you build stuff faster from game to game. Having good macro is not having a good economy and therefore being able to build more stuff. Other terrans go 14CC as well. Their macro just isn't as good.
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On January 07 2013 18:56 KanoCoke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 18:09 SupLilSon wrote:On January 07 2013 13:55 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 13:39 SupLilSon wrote:On January 07 2013 12:59 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 12:45 SupLilSon wrote:On January 07 2013 12:32 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 12:25 SupLilSon wrote:On January 07 2013 11:19 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days. There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all. Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all. There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion. You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S. So you think the qualification system should be better and more indepth...or what? The ones who win their games are the ones who get into Code S, how are they not the best? So each GSL winner is automatically the best player on earth? More than a few champions and tons of runner ups have fallen off, some rather quickly and others over time. No I don't think the GSL system needs to be more in depth. Obviously getting to Code S is a major accomplishment, I'm not trying to downplay that fact. I think BaBy was one of the worse opponents for him to face and given a different draw he could have made it to Code S. If each season's Code S solidly defined the top players then threads like this wouldn't exist, no? I have no idea what this has to do with what you said originally, but to answer your question, winning GSL means you are the best player in that season. Since the GSL is the hardest league it makes you the best player until the next season. Sure, Flash could win games in code s and go far potentially, why not. I just don't understand why you said GSL doesn't show the best players, because the best player ( Life ) is in Code S, and winning GSL twice made him the best player. From the limited games I've seen of Flash, his macro can look almost unparalleled. Let me clarify, Flash as of this instant might not be a top25 player in the world. BUT I think his mechanics easily give him of the strongest foundations of any SC2 player out there. My top 5 for Terran would probably look something like Flash, Fantasy, BaBy, Bogus, Taeja. Sorry to the eSF Terrans but I really think they will be surpassed once these guys fully flesh out their game knowledge and star2 sense. Once Cyborg Mvp's wrist and neck parts are replaced, he'll still probably be better than Flash, Bogus, Baby and Taeja.I'm actually more impressed with Fantasy, who seems to be improving at a much steadier rate than Flash, and has constantly been beating him whenever they're matched up as of late. Flash said to wait a year until he gets used to the whole SCII interface and such though, so once his analysis is complete, that's probably the moment when we should do this type of thread.
lol...Mvp's looked so good in the past simply because he didn't play Kespa level caliber players. Keep in mind, MVP had a 39% win ratio in Brood War. With that said, although this is a different game once the Kespa players play longer they will surpass MVP. Keep in mind, they've only been playing SC2 "full time" since September. Prior to September they practiced both BW and SC2. Practicing one game part time is not the same as practicing it full time and MVP's played since 2010. Sure the game has evolved since then but once HotS is released and the Kespa players experience more situations and find a counter to everything then it will end up like Brood War again.
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Well, Flash is definitelly Code-S level.
MC also has 3:2 in this group and goes directly to Code S
Flash has 3:2 record, and some people in here are saying nonsense like he is gonna to drop down from Code A! Are you frickin' serious?!
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On January 07 2013 19:40 Ch3rry wrote: Well, Flash is definitelly Code-S level.
MC also has 3:2 in this group and goes directly to Code S
Flash has 3:2 record, and some people in here are saying nonsense like he is gonna to drop down from Code A! Are you frickin' serious?!
Look at Flashes losses closer in the up/downs. The only map he dropped was Cloud Kingdom (both to JD and MC). Also, look at his history on Cloud Kingdom, it's terrible. I personally don't think he hasn't found a way to play the map yet. He won all of the big maps.
Put any top tier code S player against Flash on a big map and I am sure he'd win. Put any top tier code S player on a small map and I am sure they'd have a high chance of winning. Flash just needs to figure out a way to play smaller maps and he'll be good to go. But, I am sure after this season all of the small maps will be removed and leave only the bigger ones.
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