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On January 08 2013 09:37 RanDomFox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 09:32 decado90 wrote:On January 08 2013 09:10 RanDomFox wrote: GSL code a and s are sc2 leagues, not brood war. sure he won a lot in bw and was god there. but sc2 is different, he's won nothing, couldnt get out of code a. those are facts. He really isn't even the best brood war player to have just switched over either. Innovation, Jaedong, Baby, Rain, etc etc all performing better than him. Those are code s caliber players because they can make it into code s, flash didn't make it and thus isn't good enough.
if gsl code s represents the best 32 players in the world (maybe more now with the new group) and flash couldnt make it then i think hes probably top 50 or 60 in the world. no better though I guess Stephano is a top 32 player because he's in Code S right? Flash has the best record in proleague. Not Hero or Taeja, both Code S players he beat in macro games, but Flash. You don't attain the best record in PL by accident. yup stephano is better than flash. look at sc2 tournaments won. and proleague doesnt matter here since this is a flash for code s thread.
Once again, you make absolutely no sense.
"Look at all these non-GSL tournaments Stephano has won. This makes him better than Flash." "Flash is doing well in Proleague, but that doesn't matter because it's not GSL."
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Is he a Code S Player? If so, high, medium or lower tier? Or is he a Code A Player?
I'd say "Code S level" is reserved for the players that are actually in it(the recent 2-3 seasons maybe), and have been able to stay for 2 seasons (at least through U&D)
"Code S Level " is a moving target, since all the players involved in the GSL are improving. If you don't, and fall behind, you drop down to Code A and often times to Code B.
its not like there is an experience bar on the players that automatically upgrades them to Code S from Code A. even if there was, the experience requirement is constantly increasing.
Code S of early 2011 is miles behind Code S of 2012, and there are a lot of players that used to be Code S level that pale in comparison to the more recent Code S players.
So no. Flash isn't Code S level in my eyes, Hes close though (2 U/D in a row), so high Code A.
Still doesn't mean he isn't one of best players in the world.
Is he on par with players of this calibre of the best that Kespa has to offer or is he a tier below?
I think he is on par. A LOT of the kespa players are improving very fast, and catching up very quickly. I think Flash is one of them. Of course, this short burst of improvement can backfire, as other players have had more experience with awkward builds that aren't used anymore.
overhyped?
Maybe, but thats for the fans' interpretation and not an issue of Flash. With the way he is improving, along with a lot of other Kespa players, he will definitely be top-tier, as long as he constantly improves.
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On January 08 2013 09:37 RanDomFox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 09:32 decado90 wrote:On January 08 2013 09:10 RanDomFox wrote: GSL code a and s are sc2 leagues, not brood war. sure he won a lot in bw and was god there. but sc2 is different, he's won nothing, couldnt get out of code a. those are facts. He really isn't even the best brood war player to have just switched over either. Innovation, Jaedong, Baby, Rain, etc etc all performing better than him. Those are code s caliber players because they can make it into code s, flash didn't make it and thus isn't good enough.
if gsl code s represents the best 32 players in the world (maybe more now with the new group) and flash couldnt make it then i think hes probably top 50 or 60 in the world. no better though I guess Stephano is a top 32 player because he's in Code S right? Flash has the best record in proleague. Not Hero or Taeja, both Code S players he beat in macro games, but Flash. You don't attain the best record in PL by accident. yup stephano is better than flash. look at sc2 tournaments won. and proleague doesnt matter here since this is a flash for code s thread.
flash's pl result dont matter and stephano's non gsl results matter...hmmm
from what i've seen of flash, his got huge potential, it'll be ignorant to label him as another mediocre sc2 player, especially if the reason is "he hasnt posted any results"
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when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
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On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none. 2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
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On January 08 2013 10:33 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none. 2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
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Flash didn't have the best record in proleague until his all-kill, which goes to show that the performance numbers in the winners league are a little bit random. He should have lost in the first game against Revival and then he would be in the middle of the pack only.
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People bring up PL, but the large majority of those players are only code A / code B caliber players. A lot of games are still flat out embarrassingly bad. Only a few of the ace players are arguably code S and only Rain, widely recognized as Kespa's best player, is solidly in that ranking (and the gap in recent achievements between him and Flash is colossal). Flash did AK EG-TL, but Revival and JYP are Code B players (even though Revival has been in good form recently), EG-TL is the 6th place team and is obviously not really used to playing in the PL culture. They've made some horrible decisions with the players they send out (JYP as your final player not once, but twice) and clearly aren't preparing for their games the same way Kespa teams do.
Also, people are bringing up Flash's CC play in BW and trying to draw parallels between his development there and his potential development in SC2, but SC2 is not BW. There are so many all-ins you will not hold going CC first. I don't care if you are Flash, once people start trying to snipe him with every bizarre all-in in the book, you're going to need to adjust.
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Brain,
The game quality over the last few weeks have definitely been better and its by no means ground for comparison. It's all about what have you done for me lately and several of those players are by no means Code S now, but they certainly were. You are kidding yourself if you don't think otherwise and don't mock the decision-making. You should know better that PL has always been that way when it comes down to people arguing about the coaches choices and there is rational explanations for everything (JYP made perfect sense to me) and he's really not as bad as people make him out to be. He's still has his moments. The 14cc followed him BW and SC2. He's a very stubborn player and makes his builds work. It's not so much as comparison to the games as it is to him stylistically and his personality as a player so don't cut me that sack of crap.
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On January 08 2013 11:12 StarStruck wrote: Brain,
The game quality over the last few weeks have definitely been better and its by no means ground for comparison. It's all about what have you done for me lately and several of those players are by no means Code S now, but they certainly were. You are kidding yourself if you don't think otherwise and don't mock the decision-making. You should know better that PL has always been that way when it comes down to people arguing about the coaches choices and there is rational explanations for everything (JYP made perfect sense to me) and he's really not as bad as people make him out to be. He's still has his moments. The 14cc followed him BW and SC2. He's a very stubborn player and makes his builds work. It's not so much as comparison to the games as it is to him stylistically and his personality as a player so don't cut me that sack of crap.
To be honest, I can't understand a lot of what you are saying. I assume English is not your main language so I apologize in advance if I misinterpret anything.
Nobody cares if you were a code S player briefly months ago. The standards for code S are constantly improving and if you can't keep up, you fall out. It's that simple.
Explain to me what the rationale was for sending JYP out against Flash. PvT is not only JYP's worst match-up, his win-rate is totally abysmal (~30%). Even if he beats Flash, JYP is not the caliber of player capable of reverse all-killing KT. He has his moments, but winning 4 straight games is not about moments. It's about consistent excellence and that is the antithesis of the player JYP is. It's true that the only alternative at that point was Jaedong but then it goes back to my point about EG-TL clearly not being used to the PL culture. The PL culture is team first, individual leagues second. If you're holding Jaedong out so that he can perform better in his U&D later, then you are not playing on the same level of urgency other PL teams are playing on. The first time JYP was sent out might've made some sense... if you did not have Taeja, Hero, and Jaedong sitting on the sidelines.
But I don't need to argue against the truth. EG-TL is 6th in the PL. An AK is an AK, but it's not like EG-TL is playing well.
As for BW vs. SC2, my point still stands. You are not going to be able to make it work because the game is different.
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On January 08 2013 10:59 Brian333 wrote: People bring up PL, but the large majority of those players are only code A / code B caliber players. A lot of games are still flat out embarrassingly bad. Only a few of the ace players are arguably code S and only Rain, widely recognized as Kespa's best player, is solidly in that ranking (and the gap in recent achievements between him and Flash is colossal). Flash did AK EG-TL, but Revival and JYP are Code B players (even though Revival has been in good form recently), EG-TL is the 6th place team and is obviously not really used to playing in the PL culture. They've made some horrible decisions with the players they send out (JYP as your final player not once, but twice) and clearly aren't preparing for their games the same way Kespa teams do.
Also, people are bringing up Flash's CC play in BW and trying to draw parallels between his development there and his potential development in SC2, but SC2 is not BW. There are so many all-ins you will not hold going CC first. I don't care if you are Flash, once people start trying to snipe him with every bizarre all-in in the book, you're going to need to adjust.
On what are you basing the statement that the skill gap between Flash and Rain is "colossal"? Rain's results have not been spectacular since his OSL/GSL run. He dropped out of Code A, went 3-7 in the Blizzard Cup, and has a Proleague record comparable to Flash's.
As for trying to downplay Flash's all kill: maybe JYP had a specific strategy planned to snipe a terran, but wasn't able to show it because of Flash's build? If he did make it past Flash, he was clearly their best chance at taking a victory. His PvP and PvZ are both over 60%, and KT has no strong terran player besides Flash. Jaedong had just lost 9 straight ZvP's, so it clearly made no sense to send him when KT still had Stats and Wooki. Beyond that, Flash took down Taeja, who just dominated his U&D group, and Hero, who's been performing very well as of late as well. Saying "Well, the team is in 6th, so they're clearly not very strong" doesn't mean much.
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On January 08 2013 13:36 GolemMadness wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 08 2013 10:59 Brian333 wrote: People bring up PL, but the large majority of those players are only code A / code B caliber players. A lot of games are still flat out embarrassingly bad. Only a few of the ace players are arguably code S and only Rain, widely recognized as Kespa's best player, is solidly in that ranking (and the gap in recent achievements between him and Flash is colossal). Flash did AK EG-TL, but Revival and JYP are Code B players (even though Revival has been in good form recently), EG-TL is the 6th place team and is obviously not really used to playing in the PL culture. They've made some horrible decisions with the players they send out (JYP as your final player not once, but twice) and clearly aren't preparing for their games the same way Kespa teams do.
Also, people are bringing up Flash's CC play in BW and trying to draw parallels between his development there and his potential development in SC2, but SC2 is not BW. There are so many all-ins you will not hold going CC first. I don't care if you are Flash, once people start trying to snipe him with every bizarre all-in in the book, you're going to need to adjust. On what are you basing the statement that the skill gap between Flash and Rain is "colossal"? Rain's results have not been spectacular since his OSL/GSL run. He dropped out of Code A, went 3-7 in the Blizzard Cup, and has a Proleague record comparable to Flash's. As for trying to downplay Flash's all kill: maybe JYP had a specific strategy planned to snipe a terran, but wasn't able to show it because of Flash's build? If he did make it past Flash, he was clearly their best chance at taking a victory. His PvP and PvZ are both over 60%, and KT has no strong terran player besides Flash. Jaedong had just lost 9 straight ZvP's, so it clearly made no sense to send him when KT still had Stats and Wooki. Beyond that, Flash took down Taeja, who just dominated his U&D group, and Hero, who's been performing very well as of late as well. Saying "Well, the team is in 6th, so they're clearly not very strong" doesn't mean much.
I'm basing the statement on your inability to read. I clearly said the gap in their recent achievements is colossal. Are you trying to argue that it is not? RO4 GSL Code S, 1st place in Asia Finals, 3rd place in BWC, OSL Champion, and he's clearly not in some type of massive slump -- Kespa just screwed him on his Code S group and he lost a single Bo3 to drop to out of code A.
As for your point about JYP, it's all based on one very fragile key -- if JYP, a 32% PvT player that hadn't played a PvT yet in PL can make it past Flash, a 68% win rate TvP player fresh off beating Hero. Jaedong showed in his U&D group that his style of aggression isn't a bad match-up against Flash's greedy, gambling early-game and you roll the dice with the ZvP he clearly was practicing in preparation for his 3 Protoss U&D group. That's not even considering the gap in experience. JYP has been rattled at times during his PL play. Jaedong has been in must win situations how many times? Of course this is all assuming you don't mind giving Flash the chance to play Jaedong and adjust before their U&D or give his U&D Protoss opponents a few more broadcasted Jaedong vPs to consider.
As for my statement about EG-TL, they're 6th. Is that supposed to mean the team is playing well, then? What else does it mean other than that they are not playing well as a team? There is a difference between all killing a team like SKT T1 and stomping all over Samsung Khan. EG-TL is closer to one side of that spectrum than the other.
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this thread is so stupid... is so funny how so many ppl has no idea of how good flash actually is..
he is code s caliber and tournaments results doesn't really matter here.. just watch how he plays in games..
decision making , macro , micro.. he is just really really really insanely good now about winning games or losing it depends just who pay more attention at that moment..
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On January 08 2013 05:59 Ch3rry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 05:34 mrtomjones wrote:On January 08 2013 04:51 1Dhalism wrote:On January 08 2013 03:47 convention wrote:On January 08 2013 03:17 1Dhalism wrote: to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs What about Taeja? He was fielded in the proleague, and still manage to dominate his U-D group. Which is why everyone is saying Flash might be good, but is not the best. a) his matches where a day apart b) who knows how he wouldve performed in UnDs if he had won 4 games c) he is a lot more experienced then flash, and probably has more strategies that he is capable of executing well d) his UnD group was a lot weaker. And as far as coaches decision to field him - they picked him as 3rd player, not first. Stop making excuses for Flash. Man. He lost. He is not a top code S player. He probably is good enough to be low Code S right now. I dont even see why there is a discussion on this. He has failed twice. I fully suspect that he will continue improving and he has some amazing games played already. He is just not at the top yet. The point is Flash didn't exactly lost. He was in a three-way tie with MC and Jeadong. All three of them has a score of 3-2 in maps, but Flash lost due to tie-breaker. Your saying: MC is Code-S and Flash is not? It was a bit unlucky to have such an even group. And I can bet that Flash will be the only player in Up&Down groups with 3:2 record that didn't get a Wild Card group at least. He lost 2 games to the people that mattered in this case. That is losing. He may have won some but he did not qualify. It is as simple as that for me. This is not the first time he has failed to get in either. I expect he will get in eventually(I believe HOTS could change everything for a bit so who knows what happens with him) but he isnt now.
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when Proleague uses maps like whirwind, daybreak or something similar. it matters
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On January 08 2013 05:34 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 04:51 1Dhalism wrote:On January 08 2013 03:47 convention wrote:On January 08 2013 03:17 1Dhalism wrote: to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs What about Taeja? He was fielded in the proleague, and still manage to dominate his U-D group. Which is why everyone is saying Flash might be good, but is not the best. a) his matches where a day apart b) who knows how he wouldve performed in UnDs if he had won 4 games c) he is a lot more experienced then flash, and probably has more strategies that he is capable of executing well d) his UnD group was a lot weaker. And as far as coaches decision to field him - they picked him as 3rd player, not first. Stop making excuses for Flash. Man. He lost. He is not a top code S player. He probably is good enough to be low Code S right now. I dont even see why there is a discussion on this. He has failed twice. I fully suspect that he will continue improving and he has some amazing games played already. He is just not at the top yet. i'm not making excuses for Flash. I'm discussing what might've happened; the strategies and repercussions, the way we used to before all those "Elephant in the room" elitist hipsters came along. So lets ignore those people and just talk about the game in an unbiased way.
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I think Flash is defnitly CodeS. All in his Up/Down group were very skilled, possibly the best group overall with the most possible Code S caliber players. Look at Taejas group, pretty mediocre in compareson.
Once Flash gets into Code S, he will win GSL.
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On January 07 2013 09:19 The_Templar wrote: Wait a few more months, I believe Flash is still improving faster than everyone else.
man when you play 50-60 games a day and others play 25-35 . you improve faster even if you have 0 talent
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I have faith in GOD.
Let's give him 1 year to peak out his skill in HOTS.
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Flash has code S potential but until he reaches code S he is not code S calibre. He will reach code S.
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