Oh and the obligatory F** ALL STEPHANO RULES so I get lots of replies You kids...
Question: Where does Flash rank in SC2? - Page 21
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
Oh and the obligatory F** ALL STEPHANO RULES so I get lots of replies You kids... | ||
mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On January 09 2013 04:24 Faust852 wrote: It's more you being a hater then the other being fanboys. Stephano has been among the best of the world for a long time, even code S players admit that he was really scary. Please note I am saying he's a great player. But the poster I quoted made it seem like Stephano is something like the Messi of Starcraft 2, which he is very far from being. He's around top 20 or 30 or something like that. Great, scary player, but no top contender imo. Best foreigner by far though. | ||
Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On January 09 2013 03:44 Benjamin99 wrote: Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best?? http://sc2earnings.com/ rank 4 http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb/ranking/players rank 19 he is been pretty much in top 10 for over a year since he won IPL 3 Same with ELO Stats disagree with you On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right?? This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean Only one who seems to be deluded is you! Remember when a few (educated) people were saying Stephano was a brilliant player way before IPL3, in fact even as far back when Stephano's only observable accomplishment was a sick ladder winrate? While most of TL's general audience rated him as some sort of irrelevant overhyped ladder hero because he didn't "prove himself" to their liking, and somebody like Idra was considered superior in every conceivable way? Well, you're doing the same thing now. It isn't that hard to see a player display exceptional talent and skill when you watch him play a few games of Starcraft. And there are segments of the game that Flash is absolutely dominant in right now, with his flaws mostly being a matter of inexperience and a matter of time before they're fixed. | ||
The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
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EmailFDP
Brazil16 Posts
On January 09 2013 04:04 RanDomFox wrote: once again, once flash actually wins something in sc2...then this question can actually be discussed. proleague is not a benchmark of greatness, the GSL code S is (which flash couldnt even get into). People want to win code s and the gstl, the best teams arent even in proleague. if proleague was so great, EG-TL would have put jaedong in to destroy flash like he did in the up and downs. but they dont really care about it. im not even a stephano fan, but he has won alot of tournaments, whereas flash hasnt. flash isnt the best, he isnt the best kespa player, he isnt even the best kespa terran. I laughed so hard reading this. How old are you? 12? Do you really believe that they don´t care about the most expressive team championship? They did a lot of propaganda, invest money and time sending players to korea for nothing? They sent the best lineup taeja+hero+revival (yes at the moment they are better than jaedong imo) and they don´t care? lol Proleague has an incredible visibility to a team man. | ||
waitwhat
United States152 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 09 2013 03:44 Benjamin99 wrote: Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best?? http://sc2earnings.com/ rank 4 http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb/ranking/players rank 19 he is been pretty much in top 10 for over a year since he won IPL 3 Same with ELO Stats disagree with you On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right?? This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean Only one who seems to be deluded is you! Stephano for sure is one of the (right now, I would argue the best foreigner) and certainly a force to be reckoned with. However, if you are arguing that he is the best in the world, I'm going to disagree. He could probably smash his way into the top-20-or-so, but there are a multitude of players who can consistently beat him, and/or have GSL titles to their names. The thing is, even if Stephano can dominate Code A / Code S Koreans on a semi-regular basis, he'll never have truly proven himself without actually having competed in Code S. At least, that's how I feel, and I think that's the general consensus. Same thing goes for Flash; eventually, if he doesn't win Code S (or OSL if that comes back and shapes up), he'll never be accepted as the best in the world. That's how this scene/community works. + Show Spoiler + As for the "He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none", Life won 2 GSLs and an MLG while going to school - can Stephano say that? | ||
The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
On January 09 2013 04:27 Shiori wrote: Stephano isn't one of the best in the world. He's good, but he's no MVP or Life or Parting. At no point in his career was he as dominant as any of those three have been. And the list goes on. The fact is that Stephano has won a few foreign tournaments, generally on the strength of his ZvP, and has taken down some Code S Koreans. This doesn't make you one of the best players in the world. Being consistently a force in Code S is what makes you one of the best in the world. Actually until recently he was pretty much the most consistent and it could be argued best zerg. He was #1 in International Elo for a good portion of 2012. Only recently he's basically stopped practicing and his results have finally started to suffer. Stephano had high placements (4th or better) in almost every tournament he entered in the first three quarters of 2012 except for a couple MLGs. Not only was his Elo #1 overall in International tournaments for a good bit of 2012 but his Elo, at around the time he switched to EG, was #1 overall in vP and vT (for all three races). He was an extremely dominant player. He also has been extremely influential, basically showing Korea that infestors > mutas and infestor - blord could not be beaten. Parting has been coming on strong of late, but to compare Parting prior to his win at the BWC with Stephano would be an insult to Stephano rather than the other way around. Life has surpassed Stephano recently and MVP's accomplishments surpass everyone else's not just Stephano's so there's no shame in not measuring up to the bar MVP set. Right now Stephano is probably a top 5-10 zerg and he doesn't practice. Once he buckles down he'll be back to being a top 3 zerg. If he finds some serious motivation there's no reason he can't be the best Zerg in the world. He's certainly the most talented. | ||
Hider
Denmark9236 Posts
On January 09 2013 04:32 Talin wrote: Remember when a few (educated) people were saying Stephano was a brilliant player way before IPL3, in fact even as far back when Stephano's only observable accomplishment was a sick ladder winrate? While most of TL's general audience rated him as some sort of irrelevant overhyped ladder hero because he didn't "prove himself" to their liking, and somebody like Idra was considered superior in every conceivable way? Well, you're doing the same thing now. It isn't that hard to see a player display exceptional talent and skill when you watch him play a few games of Starcraft. And there are segments of the game that Flash is absolutely dominant in right now, with his flaws mostly being a matter of inexperience and a matter of time before they're fixed. oh please don't use logic. Flash is mediocore because he lost 2 games in the qualification. Who cares about variance. 2 games is definitely enough of a proof. Also his tvt is really awfull because he lost to bogus, fantasy and baby. He also doesn't get the strategical concept of starcraft 2 yet because he is still kinda new. Sarcasm off. Well, too many people on this thread just makes these kind of comments, which clearly demonstrates they have no idea what htey are talking about. If you actually understand the game you can clearly see when a player is fucking good and when is "just good". Flash is fucking good, and short-results doesn't matter when we want to rate players. Sure, if you are a bronze player, you will do best by using results when rating players, but your guess will be much worse than players who can actually idenfity great players by looking at how they play. (and yeh i remember watching MVP play and LOSE to Zenio in gsl season 2, and even back then I clearly identified MVP as a far superior player to any other terrans). | ||
Shiori
3815 Posts
On January 09 2013 04:48 The_Darkness wrote: Actually until recently he was pretty much the most consistent and it could be argued best zerg. He was #1 in International Elo for a good portion of 2012. Only recently he's basically stopped practicing and his results have finally started to suffer. Stephano had high placements (4th or better) in almost every tournament he entered in the first three quarters of 2012 except for a couple MLGs. Not only was his Elo #1 overall in International tournaments for a good bit of 2012 but his Elo, at around the time he switched to EG, was #1 overall in vP and vT (for all three races). He was an extremely dominant player. He also has been extremely influential, basically showing Korea that infestors > mutas and infestor - blord could not be beaten. Parting has been coming on strong of late, but to compare Parting prior to his win at the BWC with Stephano would be an insult to Stephano rather than the other way around. Life has surpassed Stephano recently and MVP's accomplishments surpass everyone else's not just Stephano's so there's no shame in not measuring up to the bar MVP set. Right now Stephano is probably a top 5-10 zerg and he doesn't practice. Once he buckles down he'll be back to being a top 3 zerg. If he finds some serious motivation there's no reason he can't be the best Zerg in the world. He's certainly the most talented. International ELO is a bit unfair when you consider that most of the Code S players don't even come overseas to play. Parting was a Ro4 GSL player before winning BWC. He was damn good. I don't think Stephano's achievements in foreign tournies are any more impressive than coming 3/4th in the GSL. I'm just trying to say here that nothing Stephano ever achieved is equivalent to a GSL title. Nothing is even close. He won a few tournaments bulldozing his way through mostly foreigners and, yes, some top tier Koreans, but that's not the same as playing in a tournament where every opponent is a top tier Korean. Until Stephano does that, calling him one of the best is just baseless. | ||
KamikazeDurrrp
United States95 Posts
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SinO[Ob]
France897 Posts
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AimlessAmoeba
Canada704 Posts
The fact of the matter is that he IS winning though (beating current code S players and past GSL champions alike) and that without a doubt you can say that he hasn't plateaued yet. I saw him ALLKILL EG-TL the other night which arguably has the best sc2 players in proleague. He flattened Taeja. He's pretty damn good, people. | ||
Iron_
United States389 Posts
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ref4
2933 Posts
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
FlaSh won games and did well in PL but we really started calling him a god after he was in the scene for several years. | ||
The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
On January 09 2013 04:52 Shiori wrote: International ELO is a bit unfair when you consider that most of the Code S players don't even come overseas to play. Parting was a Ro4 GSL player before winning BWC. He was damn good. I don't think Stephano's achievements in foreign tournies are any more impressive than coming 3/4th in the GSL. I'm just trying to say here that nothing Stephano ever achieved is equivalent to a GSL title. Nothing is even close. He won a few tournaments bulldozing his way through mostly foreigners and, yes, some top tier Koreans, but that's not the same as playing in a tournament where every opponent is a top tier Korean. Until Stephano does that, calling him one of the best is just baseless. Other than the KESPA players which Code S players don't have at least 100 games in the TLPD? There may be one or two -- maybe Vampire (from last season). Elo isn't perfect for a variety of reasons but it's as objective as it gets and Elo tells me Stephano is one of the best, which is confirmed by his tournament winnings and the list of players he's beaten. If only GSL results will sway you though, there's not much sense debating the question further. And since this thread is about Flash and I'm getting off topic, I'll add that Flash will be a god of SC2 soon enough and that he's definitely Code S caliber at the moment despite his GSL results. | ||
RanDomFox
United States84 Posts
On January 09 2013 04:20 sCuMBaG wrote: You got it completely wrong mate. EG cares quite a bunch about GSL (foreign market), hence they didn't play jaedong in Proleague but let him concentrate on his GSL games. Flash on the other hand, played Proleague in the morning and then still went on to play his Up and Down matches. KT could have easily played wooki, stats or whatever. However, they care about Proleague (Korean market) and therefore played Flash. Please do us all a favour ... get your shit straight and learn how to spell. touchy, touchy...perhaps a re-read of my post to better understand what I was saying. Let me spell it out for you mate, EG-TL cares more about the GSL than proleague. my proof is saving jaedong for his up and downs rather than having him play in proleague and roll right over flash like he did in the up and downs. it doesn't matter that KT Rolster cares more about proleague, my point was that Code S is still the benchmark for greatness in the sc2 world at the moment. Proleague is good, but if a Code A player can top it, then well...it's not that good. please continue to do me a favor with straightening my "shit" out and correcting my spelling :D | ||
Poopi
France12466 Posts
I watched some of his Up&Down games as well as a few proleague games. He doesn't seem to have insane micro (still very good), but a very good tactical play as well as good mental (he was often in spots you don't want to be in when you are terran) taking good decisions for the situations he is in. His strategical play however shows a lack of sc2 experience and he isn't able to fully use mindgames (vs both MC and YoDa particularly, even though he won vs YoDa), resulting in disappointings losses (the no bunker vs MC). His macro is very good but that has to be expected given his playstyle and BW background. (he doesn't rely super heavily on multitask like BaBy and sometimes Fantasy seems to do) His rate of progression is really good because he is already among the best KesPA players, and looked good vs Life who has insane ZvT. So I think he is scary good but not yet enough to be able to win championships with the big guns (the likes of Leenock, Life etc) back to back. That was to be expected given how late he started playing sc2 fully. He has the code S level for sure (around 50 people have it honestly) but we will have to wait HotS to see him dominate, and I don't think it will be for an extended period of time given the number of really good players that will be there. | ||
Hider
Denmark9236 Posts
On January 09 2013 07:24 Poopi wrote: Flash strenghts seems to be almost the same as Mvp's strengths, but with better potential and no neck pain. I watched some of his Up&Down games as well as a few proleague games. He doesn't seem to have insane micro (still very good), but a very good tactical play as well as good mental (he was often in spots you don't want to be in when you are terran) taking good decisions for the situations he is in. His strategical play however shows a lack of sc2 experience and he isn't able to fully use mindgames (vs both MC and YoDa particularly, even though he won vs YoDa), resulting in disappointings losses (the no bunker vs MC). His macro is very good but that has to be expected given his playstyle and BW background. (he doesn't rely super heavily on multitask like BaBy and sometimes Fantasy seems to do) His rate of progression is really good because he is already among the best KesPA players, and looked good vs Life who has insane ZvT. So I think he is scary good but not yet enough to be able to win championships with the big guns (the likes of Leenock, Life etc) back to back. That was to be expected given how late he started playing sc2 fully. He has the code S level for sure (around 50 people have it honestly) but we will have to wait HotS to see him dominate, and I don't think it will be for an extended period of time given the number of really good players that will be there. I hate this mindgame theory. Starcraft isn't poker and too often people emphasize too much value on this concept. Sure the no bunker was a mistake, but I am sure other players have been cutting corners/making mistakes from time to time, where we haven't neccesarily concluded that they lacked a strategical understanding of the game. At this point (given how much he practices) he probably has a pretty decent strategical understanding, and he probably knows how to play a safe early game if he was told to do that. IF he really lacks something strategical, then it would be something "advanced" he didn't get, and then 99% of TL's posters wouldn't be able to identifiy it. (so basically if you are plat/diamond/ or even master player) you probably shouldn't argue that Flash has strategical weakness's unless you havde made a very indepth analysis of his play and compared it to the GSL terrans. So to sum up; this strategical thing is basically a result of confirmation basis where you assume that he has to have a lack of game understanding as he has "only" played the game for 9 months. | ||
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