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OP here. Great Discussion; or comments thus far.
Reading every post through the 21 pages.
The general opinion seem to be: - his progression is out of this world, improving at an exponential rate - he is most likely to become one of the best players of sc2 in the near future because of his potential/bw mechanics and his work ethic - he's a key factor in the growth of e-sports as there are many who simply watch sc2 to watch him play - his games are always fun to watch - he IS among one of the top Kespa players and right on par with Bogus Fantasy and Soulkey - he hasn't shown that strong as results as Rain did but he will in the future - His level of play: undecided but he's not an average joe player. He is a player that has skills at the moment that merits from him being: "mid-top Code S to top Code A" level. It is hard to give a precise measurement because of the amount of good players nwoadays and skill wise theyre all similar
- Flash fans vs Stephano fans - Proleague is not up to par with GSL. (which is in my opinion: a very stupid comment to make because Proleague is a League; whereas GSL is a tournament. GSL is a tournament like the OSL where they filter the good from the bad; and the top-tier from the good crop; the Proleague does not have such option.) However, If you want to compare Proleague with eSF league, compare it to GSTL. If you want to compare GSL to a Kespa tournament; compare it to OSL. Simple. Stop comparing apples to oranges. - he has been given a large burden/load because of his bw accomplishments; however does not warrant him being overhyped. He hasnt lived up to expectations but time will tell if he lives up to what we originally expected of him - Code S is such a vague term these days..as players from Code A can take sets from Code S because of such the close skillgap and large player base; that its hard to make a distinction between the two.
And finally.... the unrelated EG-TL issue that was briefly debated on here: - you can't automatically assume "team X" takes a "league Y" more/less seriously than "tournament z" because of their decisions. EG-TL fielded a powerful/capable team to take down Flash; they failed. They saved JD from the Up/Downs. Those are facts. KT sent out Flash, he all-killed. and he participated in the Up/Downs shortly after and lost. Those are the only factual statements you can make.
It is impossible (unless you specifically ask the EG-TL coach and the EG gaming upper management), to decipher what they emphasize more on.
So here's a new questions that might light a fire, pitchforks might be sent out and it may start a riot but: Who has the highest ceiling? Stephano or Flash? Does Flash possess something that Stephano likely will not be able to obtain? Does Stephano possess something that Flash likely will not be able to obtain?
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France12463 Posts
On January 09 2013 07:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 07:24 Poopi wrote: Flash strenghts seems to be almost the same as Mvp's strengths, but with better potential and no neck pain. I watched some of his Up&Down games as well as a few proleague games. He doesn't seem to have insane micro (still very good), but a very good tactical play as well as good mental (he was often in spots you don't want to be in when you are terran) taking good decisions for the situations he is in.
His strategical play however shows a lack of sc2 experience and he isn't able to fully use mindgames (vs both MC and YoDa particularly, even though he won vs YoDa), resulting in disappointings losses (the no bunker vs MC). His macro is very good but that has to be expected given his playstyle and BW background. (he doesn't rely super heavily on multitask like BaBy and sometimes Fantasy seems to do)
His rate of progression is really good because he is already among the best KesPA players, and looked good vs Life who has insane ZvT.
So I think he is scary good but not yet enough to be able to win championships with the big guns (the likes of Leenock, Life etc) back to back. That was to be expected given how late he started playing sc2 fully.
He has the code S level for sure (around 50 people have it honestly) but we will have to wait HotS to see him dominate, and I don't think it will be for an extended period of time given the number of really good players that will be there. I hate this mindgame theory. Starcraft isn't poker and too often people emphasize too much value on this concept. Sure the no bunker was a mistake, but I am sure other players have been cutting corners/making mistakes from time to time, where we haven't neccesarily concluded that they lacked a strategical understanding of the game. At this point (given how much he practices) he probably has a pretty decent strategical understanding, and he probably knows how to play a safe early game if he was told to do that. IF he really lacks something strategical, then it would be something "advanced" he didn't get, and then 99% of TL's posters wouldn't be able to identifiy it. (so basically if you are plat/diamond/ or even master player) you probably shouldn't argue that Flash has strategical weakness's unless you havde made a very indepth analysis of his play and compared it to the GSL terrans. So to sum up; this strategical thing is basically a result of confirmation basis where you assume that he has to have a lack of game understanding as he has "only" played the game for 9 months. Of course it's something advanced he didn't get, and I never said I knew what it was. The no bunker happened for a reason and only a few people knows it, mainly his team and he. I didn't say he was like "trash" strategically-wise, just that his play shows a lack of experience.
By the way, no mindgames really? Then explain why did he do a proxy-reaper build vs Yoda, something that we never see?
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- Proleague is not up to par with GSL. (which is in my opinion: a very stupid comment to make because Proleague is a League; whereas GSL is a tournament. Whereas GSL is a tournament like the OSL where they filter the good from the bad; and the top-tier from the good crop; the Proleague does not have such option.)
I agree.
Thanks for summarizing the discussion like this. Makes this thread so much better and the new questions prevent the same kind of comments over and over again (which is what I feared for this thread). Thanks for the maintenance.
Does Flash possess something that Stephano likely will not be able to obtain? Does Stephano possess something that Flash likely will not be able to obtain?
They both have a completely different attitude towards the game in my opinion and a totally different personality. I kind of think Stephano's kind of airiness is what makes him strong. For Flash it is the opposite I think. His work ethics and mechanics were mentioned in the discussion earlier which I think is fitting. His strength comes from seriousness as opposed to airiness.
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On January 09 2013 08:43 LighT. wrote: So here's a new questions that might light a fire, pitchforks might be sent out and it may start a riot but: Who has the highest ceiling? Stephano or Flash? Does Flash possess something that Stephano likely will not be able to obtain? Does Stephano possess something that Flash likely will not be able to obtain?
i think its amazing what stephano has done with so little in terms of environment. in terms of work ethics and attitude, flash will continue to improve because of this and i'm sure the same with stephano. it depends on the players but i cant help but think flash is more hungry for glory because 1) live up to his name/standards 2) represent the team with glory. the two thing is something flash has been doing for so so many years, in comparison stephano just entered the team scene.
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Does Flash possess something that Stephano likely will not be able to obtain? Does Stephano possess something that Flash likely will not be able to obtain?
Flash lives Starcraft. That is what he does. In interviews, he's talked about how even when he's showering or doing something else, he's still thinking about it and how to improve. Added to the fact that he's basically a Starcraft prodigy, in the long run, Stephano simply can't compete with limited training time and commitment. This is why Flash will become the best player in the world, while Stephano is the best foreigner.
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Keep in mind with this about Flash:
He was the greatest player in the history of starcraft broodwar - arguably the most difficult, highest skill ceiling, with the greatest competition of any game ever. He was able to pass courage after practicing starcraft for a few months. He has won more titles than anyone in starcraft. He has some of the greatest mechanics, and more importantly, some of the greatest analytical ability / decision making in starcraft broodwar while maintaining perfect macro and great micro.
But, most importantly, Flash has one of the best work ethics / mindsets, and can really learn and analyze better than almost anyone. This alone will make him persevere in SC2, as long as he has the drive.
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On January 09 2013 07:08 RanDomFox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 04:20 sCuMBaG wrote:On January 09 2013 04:04 RanDomFox wrote: once again, once flash actually wins something in sc2...then this question can actually be discussed. proleague is not a benchmark of greatness, the GSL code S is (which flash couldnt even get into). People want to win code s and the gstl, the best teams arent even in proleague.
if proleague was so great, EG-TL would have put jaedong in to destroy flash like he did in the up and downs. but they dont really care about it.
im not even a stephano fan, but he has won alot of tournaments, whereas flash hasnt.
flash isnt the best, he isnt the best kespa player, he isnt even the best kespa terran. You got it completely wrong mate. EG cares quite a bunch about GSL (foreign market), hence they didn't play jaedong in Proleague but let him concentrate on his GSL games. Flash on the other hand, played Proleague in the morning and then still went on to play his Up and Down matches. KT could have easily played wooki, stats or whatever. However, they care about Proleague (Korean market) and therefore played Flash. Please do us all a favour ... get your shit straight and learn how to spell. touchy, touchy...perhaps a re-read of my post to better understand what I was saying. Let me spell it out for you mate, EG-TL cares more about the GSL than proleague. my proof is saving jaedong for his up and downs rather than having him play in proleague and roll right over flash like he did in the up and downs. it doesn't matter that KT Rolster cares more about proleague, my point was that Code S is still the benchmark for greatness in the sc2 world at the moment. Proleague is good, but if a Code A player can top it, then well...it's not that good. please continue to do me a favor with straightening my "shit" out and correcting my spelling :D
Proleague is the most famous and prestigious league in the world. Just because you speculate that they didn't play Jaedong in Proleague to save his strategy for his U&D matches doesn't mean that it's true. They clearly thought that JYP had a better chance of getting a victory for the team than Jaedong. While JYP has a reputation for bad PvT, his PvZ and PvP are both over 60%, and he's obviously been working hard on his PvT, as evidenced by the fact that he took down Fantasy yesterday.
On the other hand, Jaedong had lost 9 straight ZvP's before that day, and KT still had Stats and Wooki to send out. It's a coaching decision, not a conspiracy theory. Incidentally, Flash's game against Jaedong was on Cloud Kingdom, whereas his game against JYP was on Bifrost. Just because Jaedong's strategy worked on Cloud Kingdom doesn't mean that it would work on a completely different map.
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You know why he's going to be the best. Well, allow me to tell you: It's because he's motha#$^$'ing Flash. And if you think that's tautological reasoning (circular reasoning), then I ask you, nigh, command you to look up exactly what the name Flash means...
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It would amuse me a lot to hear MVP talk about Flash and how Flash current skill level if and how fast he is improving.
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On January 09 2013 08:43 LighT. wrote: So here's a new questions that might light a fire, pitchforks might be sent out and it may start a riot but: Who has the highest ceiling? Stephano or Flash?
Thats actually a very tough question. I will probably upset a lot of people, but I will say Stephano. Stephano could reach higher skill imo, maybe even highest in the world. BUT he never will. He just doesnt have the drive and work rate. He doesnt love the game, he doesnt breath and live Starcraft. He is in it for the money, he said it himself and he wont reach his highest possible skill without being fully devoted (again I say, imo).
On January 09 2013 08:43 LighT. wrote:Does Flash possess something that Stephano likely will not be able to obtain? Work ethic, drive to be the best, love for Starcraft...
On January 09 2013 08:43 LighT. wrote:Does Stephano possess something that Flash likely will not be able to obtain?
As could be seen above, I THINK Stephano has more pure talent. But as I said, he will never reach his full potential, so it doesnt really matter.
As Rain said - there are talented people. There are people who love their job. And then there are talented people who love their job. And thats Flash and several others. Not Stephano though.
(and now I am gonna hide into the corner, because I probably upset both - Stephano and Flash fanboys -.-)
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Who has the highest ceiling? Stephano or Flash?
Flash puts more time and effort in than Stephano. In a game that rewards time and effort, Flash obviously has the higher ceiling. Also, people forget but as of late Stephano barely has a 50% win rate.
Does Flash possess something that Stephano likely will not be able to obtain?
A work ethic.
Does Stephano possess something that Flash likely will not be able to obtain?
Douchebaggery.
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On January 09 2013 10:37 Ammanas wrote: Thats actually a very tough question. I will probably upset a lot of people, but I will say Stephano. Stephano could reach higher skill imo, maybe even highest in the world. BUT he never will. He just doesnt have the drive and work rate.
Actually this is a good point. It's obvious Stephano has great talent but his laissez-faire attitude will never get him to where he could be if he was more serious.
In actuality I don't think comparing Stepano to Flash is the relevant comparison. I'd compare Flash to Life. Here you have someone so young, so dominating (already) and in an environment that takes the game seriously, and I gotta think Life will be the new dominating player for years to come rivaling what Flash or Jaedong did in BW. Life's career path already mirrors that of Flash when he started. The upside on Life I think is much higher than even Flash.
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Flash is one of the best if not the best sc2 players of all time. Just watch his games if you don't believe me. He's also probably one of the only terrans that actually knows how to play. Only reason he didn't get into code S was bad luck
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yes, let us all speculate into the never ending abyss. this is getting kinda tiring to read, but good job to OP though for sort of "refreshing" the thread every now and then
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On January 08 2013 11:55 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 11:12 StarStruck wrote: Brain,
The game quality over the last few weeks have definitely been better and its by no means ground for comparison. It's all about what have you done for me lately and several of those players are by no means Code S now, but they certainly were. You are kidding yourself if you don't think otherwise and don't mock the decision-making. You should know better that PL has always been that way when it comes down to people arguing about the coaches choices and there is rational explanations for everything (JYP made perfect sense to me) and he's really not as bad as people make him out to be. He's still has his moments. The 14cc followed him BW and SC2. He's a very stubborn player and makes his builds work. It's not so much as comparison to the games as it is to him stylistically and his personality as a player so don't cut me that sack of crap. To be honest, I can't understand a lot of what you are saying. I assume English is not your main language so I apologize in advance if I misinterpret anything. Nobody cares if you were a code S player briefly months ago. The standards for code S are constantly improving and if you can't keep up, you fall out. It's that simple. Explain to me what the rationale was for sending JYP out against Flash. PvT is not only JYP's worst match-up, his win-rate is totally abysmal (~30%). Even if he beats Flash, JYP is not the caliber of player capable of reverse all-killing KT. He has his moments, but winning 4 straight games is not about moments. It's about consistent excellence and that is the antithesis of the player JYP is. It's true that the only alternative at that point was Jaedong but then it goes back to my point about EG-TL clearly not being used to the PL culture. The PL culture is team first, individual leagues second. If you're holding Jaedong out so that he can perform better in his U&D later, then you are not playing on the same level of urgency other PL teams are playing on. The first time JYP was sent out might've made some sense... if you did not have Taeja, Hero, and Jaedong sitting on the sidelines. But I don't need to argue against the truth. EG-TL is 6th in the PL. An AK is an AK, but it's not like EG-TL is playing well. As for BW vs. SC2, my point still stands. You are not going to be able to make it work because the game is different.
It's odd because I had some other dude in a hockey thread ask me the same thing and it's as if we're on totally different wavelengths. No, English is my first language. I'm an actual writer, so I find it weird that someone would ask me this question twice in one week. o-O
Now, let's get to the heart of the argument. What the heck you think I just said? Did I not just say it's all about, "what have you done for me lately?" It's as if you guys hear only what you want to hear! Well no crap Sherlock. Players are always improving. This isn't anything new.
Let's see. Why would I send my team captain who was 5-3 in the first round and not send out JD? Jaedong would have to win 4 hard fought matches in a row to bring it back and he has Up & Down for Code S in a few hours. Common sense says to save him for later to do his baneling bust. This is by no means throwing in the towel, but to think JD could win 4-0 against a team running as hot at KT? It's wishful thinking. Remember how we both said in this business it's all about what have you done for me lately? Well, KT is the hottest team in PL atm. There's no denying it. It's all about setting your priorities and JYP was by no means a bad choice when you look at the whole picture. There's a logical explanation for it. JYP was in just as good position as JD who many consider a zvz specialist. I did like what he did in IPTL but come on man. Get off the high horse in all honesty coach Park's decision was by no means a poor one. They would have to go through Flash just to get to Stats, Wooki, Action, etc. No matter what it's a tough feat and KT has many more weapons in their arsenal. You would need lady luck regardless to pull off the reverse-kill and both players have weak match-ups regardless.
I wasn't comparing the two games at all man. What I said was Flash has a certain play style and you can see how it translates in his play regardless of the game. Once again we're not comparing games. We're looking at certain characteristics of players. Let's look at this from entirely different player. Take JulyZerg for example. I want you to try and describe his play style in one or two sentences. If you were to ask me about how July likes to play Starcraft (regardless of game) I'd say he has a strong early to mid-game where he tries to pound you with his ruthless aggression. This says a lot about the type of player JulyZerg is stylistically. It's a character trait. Now let's look at what he did in BW and what he did in SC2. Did his style change from RTS games? The answer is a resounding no. He's very much the same JulyZerg we knew from Pirates of Space in BW. See, it has more to do with the personality and stylistic play of a player than it has to do with the game. Are we on the same wavelength now?
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On January 08 2013 11:55 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 11:12 StarStruck wrote: Brain,
The game quality over the last few weeks have definitely been better and its by no means ground for comparison. It's all about what have you done for me lately and several of those players are by no means Code S now, but they certainly were. You are kidding yourself if you don't think otherwise and don't mock the decision-making. You should know better that PL has always been that way when it comes down to people arguing about the coaches choices and there is rational explanations for everything (JYP made perfect sense to me) and he's really not as bad as people make him out to be. He's still has his moments. The 14cc followed him BW and SC2. He's a very stubborn player and makes his builds work. It's not so much as comparison to the games as it is to him stylistically and his personality as a player so don't cut me that sack of crap. To be honest, I can't understand a lot of what you are saying. I assume English is not your main language so I apologize in advance if I misinterpret anything. Nobody cares if you were a code S player briefly months ago. The standards for code S are constantly improving and if you can't keep up, you fall out. It's that simple. Explain to me what the rationale was for sending JYP out against Flash. PvT is not only JYP's worst match-up, his win-rate is totally abysmal (~30%). Even if he beats Flash, JYP is not the caliber of player capable of reverse all-killing KT. He has his moments, but winning 4 straight games is not about moments. It's about consistent excellence and that is the antithesis of the player JYP is. It's true that the only alternative at that point was Jaedong but then it goes back to my point about EG-TL clearly not being used to the PL culture. The PL culture is team first, individual leagues second. If you're holding Jaedong out so that he can perform better in his U&D later, then you are not playing on the same level of urgency other PL teams are playing on. The first time JYP was sent out might've made some sense... if you did not have Taeja, Hero, and Jaedong sitting on the sidelines. But I don't need to argue against the truth. EG-TL is 6th in the PL. An AK is an AK, but it's not like EG-TL is playing well. As for BW vs. SC2, my point still stands. You are not going to be able to make it work because the game is different.
Actually there's plenty of reasons of why you would send out JYP. You aren't fully looking at the picture, and that's the main problem with your argument.
Yes. JYP has an abysmal PvT. Good point. And Flash is a terran. However, let's say JYP beats Flash even with an abysmal rate, who is KT going to send out? Their core players of course. Action, Crazy-hydra, Wooki, Stats. 2Protoss, 2 Zergs. Both matchups JYP is more than capable of holding.
Jaedong has a better win rate in ZvT than JYP @ 37.5% going back to September (prior to playing Yoda/Flash in Up/DOwns). Okay...but if he beats Flash, Jaedong has a godly ZvZ in SC2; Action/Crazy-hydra arent a problem. EXCEPT KT wouldnt send out Action/Crazy-hydra unless they have a sniper build set up. KT would send out Stats (a guy who's undefeated in Proleague) Wooki (a PvZ/PvP specialist)..And Jaedong's ZvP in the past 11?
0-11. All losses.
So the risk is..would you rather take a chance on.. JYP (Poor PvT, Good PvZ, Great PvP)? or.. Jaedong (Sub par ZvT, Great ZvZ, Absymal ZvP)?
And this factors in that these KT guys have specific sniper builds setup they have map choice; and in the case of JYP, if he beats Flash...KT's 2nd terran: Mind..is garbage. whereas their Protoss line is extremely deep with Stats/Wooki/Motive. They saw JYP as the better choice. Just because they sent out JYP over Jaedong doesnt mean they're throwing or not putting emphasis on PL. However you are entitled to rant about the poor decision making and why the former SKT T1 coach would be fired from his position in EG-TL. ----------------------
Now to tackle your 2nd point. Yes, Kespa teams take the league seriously, and in the case of MSL preliminaries, ODT preliminaries, and in the Up/Down (basically the ODTs ofthe GSL), they usually emphasize team league more than the individual. When they make it to OSL/MSL or in the case Code S; they start to put more emphasis on the individual to succeed than the team. That's been seen time and time again. however to make the assumption EG-TL doesnt have the same "urgency" as other Proleague teams... well..I'm sorry but that's a very stupid comment to make.
Why? How do you know if they're urgent or not? You can make the same inference that mean everytime KT fields Barracks or when SKT T1 fields Bisu, they're not treating the PL with urgency and basically "throwing" when they're against the top-players. It's also not like KT havent fielded Flash when his group game was on the same day either; I think on the day Flash/Effort for the OSL Championship; KT played a game that day and they actually sent out Flash. Look at the PL Matchups. B-teamer vs Top Tier A-Teamer, happens A LOT.
Every team goes in with a game plan. And no..EG-TL are playing with the same sort of urgency.. or else They would be fielding Huk/Thorzain/Zenio/Demuslim/Idra, or whoever with a **** all attitude. But they dont.
In the prime example you're referring to "KT vs EG-TL", They fielded their Ace: Taeja; they tried to snipe Flash with Hero on Antiga, and send out Revival/Zenio. Certainly theyre putting a lot of emphasis on the proleague as well; I'm sure they want their players to succeed in the Up/Downs.
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Well done Light. Much more thorough than me!
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