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On January 07 2013 12:25 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 11:19 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days. There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all. People tend to say this when there favorite player does not make it but never explain why. If you said this before the whole code S switch sure, since it was nearly impossible to fall out but now every season you get these people knocking against each other and only the top8 even stay in code S for sure. The rest has to go through code A or even worse, those fearsome up and downs.
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On January 07 2013 12:32 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 12:25 SupLilSon wrote:On January 07 2013 11:19 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days. There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all. Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all. There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion.
You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S.
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He hasn't played Curious yet, so we don't know for sure.
He has to be close.
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God material. As of now, though, I'd say he's a mid-code S player. He probably would have made it through any other up&down group, and his performance in SPL last night was amazing. His macro is amazing, his stage experience is great, and I'd expect him to be a championship winner over the course of 2013.
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The fact that he did not manage to qualify for Code S twice now. Obviously means he is not Code S level.
He's somewhere just below Code S though. Esp with his All kill last night.
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Seems to have godly macro, but just not the overall package to compete with Code S players prepared for that tournament.
I'd say top of Code A, because, well, that's where he is. Yes the up/downs are a bit random, but remember, he got put there because he didn't make it out of Code A proper. I think it's also funny that fans point to the SPL all-kill as evidence for his greatness when those matches are also all BO1's and a bit random too. Team leagues can indicate skill, but the true test comes in individual leagues. So far Flash has underperformed in the highest level individual league there is.
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he's clearly one of the best in the world if not the best player in the world already
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I think during any given match, he can beat Code S players (even the upper tier ones), in straight up games.
IF he's not Code S caliber, the only reason imo is that he's not well rounded enough. He seems godly already when he's left to do his build the way he wants to, or when he gets into a macro game, but various all-ins and cheeses can still catch him off guard. I think that's why TvT is still his worst matchup, sooo many strong early attacks that you have to be aware of, and he simply hasn't had enough time to study them all.
So he could easily make it into Code S in certain groups, he could just as easily lose and not make it (like he just did) because of his lack of SC2 build order knowledge. There's no doubt in my mind though that he's improving faster than just about anyone else though, and that given more time (or when HotS comes out), he will be S class easily.
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I think Flash's play is really predictable during the early game (such as his greedy CC first, it's like the terran version of the Idra beta-build )
But he gets very scary after that phase. And his TvT has actually been improving A LOT lately. So, I wouldn't consider that as much as a weakness.
If he continues working hard and stays true to himself, he will definitely be a Code S championship contender.
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On January 07 2013 12:51 travis wrote: he's clearly one of the best in the world if not the best player in the world already
OH you be trolling travis you.
He's good... but not good enough to beat...+ Show Spoiler +
Joking aside he's good, not best in the world, but good. He still needs more time before he can get really good. He should also probably focus on not going 14CC every..single...game lol he keeps dying when doing it xD
On January 07 2013 12:52 hansonslee wrote:I think Flash's play is really predictable during the early game (such as his greedy CC first, it's like the terran version of the Idra beta-build ) But he gets very scary after that phase. And his TvT has actually been improving A LOT lately. So, I wouldn't consider that as much as a weakness. If he continues working hard and stays true to himself, he will definitely be a Code S championship contender.
Any good mechanical player (jaedong/flash/etc) if they do a super greedy opening and don't get punished, of course their going to be super scary. That's the point of being super greedy, but it can also backfire and you lose in really stupid way (flash losing to 1 stalker and 1 zealot for example, those 2 units pretty much fucked him so hard lol).
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On January 07 2013 12:45 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 12:32 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 12:25 SupLilSon wrote:On January 07 2013 11:19 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days. There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all. Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all. There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion. You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S.
So you think the qualification system should be better and more indepth...or what?
The ones who win their games are the ones who get into Code S, how are they not the best?
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Yeah, that's what I noticed about the KeSPA veterans. They have signature styles that define their strengths. However, at the same time, it becomes their own undoing because players now have a lot of access to VODs to figure out the best counter to the elephants' style. BW had a HUGE technical gap such as good unit control (which was pretty difficult because the BW unit AI was pretty retarded), hotkeys, etc. But now, SC2 had narrowed that gap and introduced newer and simpler mechanics.
I think what made MVP really good during his prime was his dynamic playstyle and his effective execution of it. I think that's the new thing in SC2.
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On January 07 2013 12:52 hansonslee wrote:I think Flash's play is really predictable during the early game (such as his greedy CC first, it's like the terran version of the Idra beta-build ) But he gets very scary after that phase. And his TvT has actually been improving A LOT lately. So, I wouldn't consider that as much as a weakness. If he continues working hard and stays true to himself, he will definitely be a Code S championship contender.
Flash's builds are usually very greedy (CC first) or very aggressive (Proxy marauders/reapers).
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On January 07 2013 12:47 silverstyle wrote: The fact that he did not manage to qualify for Code S twice now. Obviously means he is not Code S level.
He's somewhere just below Code S though. Esp with his All kill last night.
I posted this before but just not being able to get into Code S doesn't mean not Code S level.
What people usually mean (at least what I assume when I hear Code S level) is whether they can face off against current Code S players 50/50.
Edit - To those who just say Code S level are for only people in Code S, then it''d pointless discussion and "Code S level" would be redundant with just saying Code S player. Though, I'd say it's a worthy discussion (o discuss if players outside of Code S are evenly match against Code S level players (what I assume this topic is for, outside of Flash fan bandwagoning), even if it attracts massive Flash fanboys and fangirls. Again, fans and hyping and overhyping players are important for eSports!
There are plenty of players not in Code S that do that in various other tournaments.
Yes, team league and non-GSL tournaments in general are different but that doesn't discount or discredit wins outside of GSL.
For example, take MLG for example. MLG, you face off against different players with little to no preparation. Someone who consistently wins or does good against current Code S level players in MLG, but can't make it to the GSL (for example or for whatever reason) I'd say is GSL Code S level.
Now for team leagues, team leagues can definitely show skill. It's different than Code S but just because Code S is regarded as the most prestigious tournament doesn't mean everything else is discredited (there are different ways to make money and succeed in SC2 outside of the GSL).
Anyway I said this before but the best way to see if someone is Code S level (relatively speaking), if to see how well said person does against Code S players outside of GSL.
It's too bad Proleague and GSTL didn't combine or something, or else we'd have something to really compare. Again, DRG is a good example of a Code S level player before being able to get into Code S. Yes, the individual and team formats are different but I definitely say that either league shouldn't be discredited just because it's different. Takes a different skill set but not that much different (especially in Winner's league format where you can't get away with just practicing one build in one map over and over, Winner's league compares to a more traditional tournament where you may face multiple opponents at once without specific preparation like MLG).
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On January 07 2013 12:45 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 12:32 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 12:25 SupLilSon wrote:On January 07 2013 11:19 Dodgin wrote:On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days. There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all. Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all. There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion. You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S. I would be really curious to hear what your top five is exactly. I think that Flash is a talented player, but he has some weaknesses to his game. Right now he does incredibly well if you let him play his game, but players who bring the fight to Flash have had a lot of problems. EG-TL let Flash play his game and got all-killed, whereas MC really brought the fight to Flash and punished his style. Also Flash's vT is not that great like it was in BW. Flash's play is great, but it has holes, and therefore I don't understand how you can put him as one of the top five Terrans, mainly because that is such a competitive field. We're talking about a field that includes, but is not limited to: Bogus, Mvp, MarineKing, Ryung, YoDa, Happy, Noblesse, Hack, KeeN, GumiHo, BaBy, Taeja, Fantasy, and I'm sure a few more who I've forgotten. There are a lot of really good Terrans, and while Flash might be better than some of the players I just listed, he's not better than most of them, at least not yet.
But I think the question of ranking the best Terrans is an interesting question. As for their skill across all three match-ups, I would put Mvp, MarineKing, and Ryung as the top class for obvious reasons. Personally I think that Bogus is up there as well despite his loss to Fantasy yesterday, but I wouldn't put Flash at the top tier quite yet.
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Flash is already one of the best SC2 players and improving at an insane rate compared to everyone one else.
Watching all his games yesterday, his downfall was being super greedy in GSL. I'm sure once he knows to tone down the greed just a tiny bit he will be unstoppable.
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Considering his previous reign, I consider him favorite vs anybody regardless of his current form.
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On January 07 2013 13:03 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 12:47 silverstyle wrote: The fact that he did not manage to qualify for Code S twice now. Obviously means he is not Code S level.
He's somewhere just below Code S though. Esp with his All kill last night. I posted this before but just not being able to get into Code S doesn't mean not Code S level. What people usually mean (at least what I assume when I hear Code S level) is whether they can face off against current Code S players 50/50. There are plenty of players not in Code S that do that in various other tournaments. Yes, team league and non-GSL tournaments in general are different but that doesn't discount or discredit wins outside of GSL. For example, take MLG for example. MLG, you face off against different players with little to no preparation. Someone who consistently wins or does good against current Code S level players in MLG, but can't make it to the GSL (for example or for whatever reason) I'd say is GSL Code S level. Now for team leagues, team leagues can definitely show skill. It's different than Code S but just because Code S is regarded as the most prestigious tournament doesn't mean everything else is discredited (there are different ways to make money and succeed in SC2 outside of the GSL). Anyway I said this before but the best way to see if someone is Code S level (relatively speaking), if to see how well said person does against Code S players outside of GSL. It's too bad Proleague and GSTL didn't combine or something, or else we'd have something to really compare. Again, DRG is a good example of a Code S level player before being able to get into Code S. Yes, the individual and team formats are different but I definitely say that either league shouldn't be discredited just because it's different. Takes a different skill set but not that much different (especially in Winner's league format where you can't get away with just practicing one build in one map over and over, Winner's league compares to a more traditional tournament where you may face multiple opponents at once without specific preparation like MLG). Frankly, I disagree with what you're saying. Perhaps being "Code S level" doesn't correlate directly with "best players," but if you cannot qualify for Code S, you are not Code S level. For a long time Puzzle was considered one of the best players, but he was not in Code S. He dominated the Korean ladder and any Korean who was asked about him said that he was one of the best players in the world. But he was not Code S, therefore you can't say he was Code S level. If you are not playing in Code S, you are not playing at Code S level. I think you should try to make more clear of a distinction between playing at what you call "Code S Level" and being the best player. Puzzle or DongRaeGu are perfect examples of how tournament format prevents Code S from being the top 32 players, but those players all are technically playing "at Code S level."
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On January 07 2013 13:03 Netsky wrote: Flash is already one of the best SC2 players and improving at an insane rate compared to everyone one else.
Watching all his games yesterday, his downfall was being super greedy in GSL. I'm sure once he knows to tone down the greed just a tiny bit he will be unstoppable.
I am not sure about that. Bogus, Fantasy, Baby have all shown similiar rate of improvement, especially Fantasy.
As for the second statement, same could be said for MKP. Being greedy is not a weakness as much as a trade off. We have to remember that if Flash wasn't as greedy, he might not the mid game advantage which snowballs from the early game. If a player is always able to play as greedy as possible without getting punished, that player would have a big advantage in every game.
I am pretty sure Flash knew that building that bunker would make him 100% safe. But he thought about the chances of him getting punished and felt he could take that chance. Obviously, it didn't work out in this case but sometimes you have to take them. I mean, you see terran players die to roach all-ins all the time. I think they know that if they just built 2 bunkers and a couple marauders, they are 100% safe. But if the timing doesn't come and the zerg does fast 3rd, you play from behind.
You would be surprise how being just 3-4 workers lower than your 'optimal' build early game snowballs in the mid/late game. Pro builds are so tight that being able to get a banshee out 10 seconds earlier, have stim 10 seconds earlier, etc has a huge effect on the mid/late game. You cannot simply look at the resources. 100 gas early game >> 100 gas late game
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