Had a very interesting, or rather heated debate on where Flash ranks amongst as a player in Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty at the moment.
Is he a Code S Player? If so, high, medium or lower tier? Or is he a Code A Player?
People probably now familiarized with some of the Kespa aces: SKT T1: Fantasy/Rain Samsung Khan Roro CJ: herO STX Soul: Bogus Woongjin: Soulkey Team 8: Baby
Is he on par with players of this calibre of the best that Kespa has to offer or is he a tier below?
As a player: Strengths: - macro is arguably one of the best in SC2; outmacroings toss and zergs. - micro is also top notch as he has carried over his mechanics from Starcraft:Brood war - patience: knows when you engage, when not to engage, and he'll usually make the opponent uncomfortable during the fight - mental strength: a rock; doesnt get phase even at the highest levels due to constant exposure to Finals apperances - Decent to very good at: TvZ, TvP - Mind games - Efficient use of apm: Constant scouting, minimum risk engagements
Weaknesses: - TvT (In the Proleagues he has lost to: Bogus, Fantasy) for a 9-3 record - greediness (usually settles for CC first), exposed to early harass and timings - game sense isnt up to maphack-esque sense he had in SC: BW - strategies; not fully exposed to all the different playstyles due to fully adjusting to SC2 5-6 months ago.
His Accomplishments: Recent accomplishments in order - WCS (Knocked out preliminaries vs MVP Sniper 2-1) - Code A GSL (Beat Sirius, Seed, Losses to Ryung, Supernova in Up/Down Matches) - Ro8 OSL (Beat MC, San, BeSt bo1 match-ups, Loses to Last 3-2) - MLG vs Proleague (40-8, 4th best of the group) - MLG vs Proleague playoffs (Beat effort 4-3, Loses to soO 4-3) - MLG Dallas (beat grubby, naniwa, theStC, hwangsin, Loses to Life 4-2) - MVP Invitational (Beat DRG 3-1, Loses to Rain 3-1) - SPL Proleague (9-3) (Beat: Zenio, Ryul2, hOpe, herO, Taeja, JYP, HerO, Revival, Bbyong, Losses to Bogus, Fantasy, ZerO) - Code A GSL (Loss to baby, Beat: Vampire, Yoda, Yonghwa Losses to Jaedong,MC)
Looking at his statistics, although he is not the top tier of the players at the moment; he seems to be a middle-ground, maybe slightly below Code S Player; and on the same tier as the kespa aces; where strategies are still lacking as well as an unrefined TvT as he's had in SC:BW.
From an objective perspective: Is he overhyped/overrated? Is he really just an average Code A calibre player, overhyped by previous accomplishments? Is he a projected player to become top-tier amongst the current SC2 crop of players?
I'm extremely curious on what user on Teamliquid thinks and their reasons for their thought. Hope to hear your two cents.
I think he is Code S level, his performance in the SPL yesterday just cemented his position as a Code S level player, in my mind at least.
EDIT: Want to chime in with the_Templar and add that his rate of improvement is very impressive. He will eventually become the MVP and, imo, will eventually be more dominant than that.
I would rank him as high Code A~ low Code S right now because of the the fact that he has failed to make it to Code S twice now. He is definitely very good as we see in proleague but when compared with the Code S talent he is not at their level.
It's really hard to tell. Flash is constantly training and improving, each time I see him play he plays better and better. I think he's already passing the Code A level, and probably in some months he could get to at least mid tier code S.
He's S class still in SC2 imo... not many people could all kill that line up EG through at him. Kespa players seem almost disinterested in Code S... not to take anything away from people who beat him but I don't get the feeling the Kespa players hold Gom in high esteem. He might not have the best record so far but when people play Flash.. they know they are playing FLASH. They bring everything they can and probably have put more time into thinking how to do this than others.
If I had to pick 5-10 of the best players in Sc2 I would still choose Flash, so he's S class to me. He's still growing which makes it even better
Personally I see this thread turning into a Kespa player vs MLG flamewar, but to answer your Question.. no hes not overhyped !
Which isn't bad in my opinion. I think he needs a bit more time. I am sure he will make it into the next Code S or the one after that or the one after that with the chance to actually take the victory. Why does he have to be top tier right from the beginning? I think there is a gap between expectations (from the glorious past) and what can be achieved in this amount of time (if ever).
I think right now, at this moment, Flash is a borderline Code S player with a (slight) weakness to all-ins. His macro is extremely solid, I'd even say top-notch, but his decision making is still lacking somewhat - he semi-frequently makes mistakes that cost him games. If he could play every game on his own terms, he would have made it into Code S this season without trouble. When builds that are strong against his greedy openers are brought out, however, he still does not have the defensive capabilities to hold such attacks of like he could in Brood War.
That said, Flash's rate of improval is awe-inspiring, as is his work ethic. He started off slowly in SC2, but I believe (having watched all of his proleague games as well as his GSL/MLG ones) that he has found his footing and will improve more quickly over the next few months. Half a year from now, I think he will be top material. Today he isn't.
Flash is good. How good is he? Only time will tell. As of right now, all we have to go on is the recent results he's shown us. He all killed EG-TL. He has been doing really well in SPL as KT's ace. He has been doing well in MLGs as well. However, he has failed to get in to Code S twice now. (as previously mentioned above) So what am I saying exactly? Flash is good. I definitely see him as a Code A caliber player. I would even say he could be low Code S. But he's NOT Code S so I can't say that he is there yet.
Just be patient. Flash's skills will speak for himself eventually.
Which isn't bad in my opinion. I think he needs a bit more time. I am sure he will make it into the next Code S or the one after that or the one after that with the chance to actually take the victory. Why does he have to be top tier right from the beginning? I think there is a gap between expectations (from the glorious past) and what can be achieved in this amount of time (if ever).
Pretty much this. He isn't code S level yet at all. He beat Taeja at TvT yesterday and the rest of TL, but that isn't an accruate description of his skill right now. Sniper demolished him, the series was 2:1, but it wasn't as close as it seemed. He will be with time, but none of the guys in the KeSPA league, other than maybe Rain but we've seen him fall quite a bit from his hype, are code S championship level. There are some that are code S, but flash is not there yet, his games yesterday showed a lot of strategic issues that he didn't have in BW, he isn't fleshed out as a player. When his play becomes fleshed out, then we will have ourselves code S caliber player material.
I would say Flash is at least a Ro32 Code S player, with a TvZ/TvP nearing Ro16. Beyond his weak TvT (which is around Code A), he can be a consistent Code S player with maybe a few dips into high Code A, but I don't see Flash making it to Ro8, let alone a finals in GSL yet. But give him time, I expect him to show Ro8 level play by March-April.
Reminds me of a consistent bomber; but doesn't get cocky. It took a year of GSL for MVP to finally do well, and last night he lost to (supposedly) IM's best player. With IM holding more GSLs than any other team, that is not something to be taken lightly.
I'd say he is at Ryung/Taeja levels right now. Strong and consistent performances that get better with time, but just always one game short of going all the way.
Where do you get that 9-3 from in TvT ?? But losing to Fantasy (10-2), and Bogus (10-4), who finished 3rd of the previous GSL is hardly being weak at TvT... To know where he stands, just look at today's games. He was a top tier player in his proleague all-kill, with a domination reminiscent of his BW days, all EG-TL players were constantly on the backfoot, behind, not being able to harass him and trying to play catch-up. Making excellent players look bad is a sign of a very good form.
I didn't look at the games in the U&D matches since I was unable to, but I'd be surprised if he was ridiculous.
I'd rank him as an ace in Proleague, and a regular middle class code S player, with options, since he's definitely there as far as skill goes, and his experience and consistency means he wouldn't like drop to code B in two seasons. Once he doesn't get surprised any more, I shudder
And it's coming from someone who doesn't like Flash. But I have to admit his strengthes.
On January 07 2013 09:19 mrRoflpwn wrote: I would rank him as high Code A~ low Code S right now because of the the fact that he has failed to make it to Code S twice now. He is definitely very good as we see in proleague but when compared with the Code S talent he is not at their level.
variance - he is one of the worlds best players. The fact that he lost to baby, fantasy and bogus doesn't change anything, as those 3 guys are among the best in the world as well.
To be honest all the kespa terrans are insanely good and superior to the GSL terrans, and I am not looking at results, just how they play.
Definitely a case of people having extraordinarily high expectations right out of the gate that weren't immediately met. At this point I think it is absolutely fair to say that mechanically he is top tier, he is still developing key instincts and I would say learning his opposition as well.
When you have an organization like KeSPA where players have been playing and competing against one another for so long in a single game, and all the sudden throw in a large injection of players it'll take some time to adapt. I would imagine learning new opponents is a rather large albeit overcome-able impasse at the moment.
Low code S level. And his tvt isn't as weak as people like to claim. Stop looking at data from a stupidly small sample size and look at his games, his tvt is fine.
I thought he was overrated but would show promising results eventually. I never though they would be this good, and he's still continuing to rise. I don't like the use of "He's Code S level" because the Code S-ness of things are just iffy to me, but I will admit he's nearing the top a lot quicker and farther than I thought.
On January 07 2013 09:27 insanet wrote: Now that Bisu sucks, Flash fans have taken the lead as the most annoying fans of all.
According to Fantasy, Bisu is actually good again now. I'm having my doubts still though. But I agree, the Flash/Stephano fans are pretty bad, and seeing them collide in the LR thread yesterday was absolutely hilarious.
OP here. Lovely opinions thus far; and hopefully this thread doesnt turn into any flame war.
Question that few have tackled:
Is he among the best Kespa players on the same tier as Rain, Bogus (Innovation), Soulkey, Roro and the likes who have succeeded in getting to the elusive GSL: Code S? Or is he a tier below them overall?
On January 07 2013 09:35 LighT. wrote: OP here. Lovely opinions thus far; and hopefully this thread doesnt turn into any flame war.
Question that few have tackled:
Is he among the best Kespa players on the same tier as Rain, Bogus (Innovation), Soulkey, Roro and the likes who have succeeded in getting to the elusive GSL: Code S? Or is he a tier below them overall?
I think Flash is on equal footing with most of the top KeSPA players. He is not the best, but he is certainly among the top-5-or-so.
On January 07 2013 09:35 BoB_KiLLeR wrote: The problem with the top notch koreans is that Code S and Code A is almost the same fucking level.
Any Code A player can beat Sniper in a match. High skill caps between the korean pros doesn't exist yet.
I agree with the sentiment that Code A and Code S are really close, but it's not fair to pick on Sniper. I personally feel the same way, he's a GSL champion that just doesn't inspire confidence. However, while any Code A player could beat any Code S player on a good day, keep in mind that it requires a good day. On average, the Code S player will be superior.
i think many people underestimate just how much "luck" plays a factor in something like code S. At that level EVERYONE is extremely powerfull with god-tier mechanics and is practicing as hard as they can for the win, so sometimes i believe there truly is players that just wake up that morning and luck just blesses them with an incredible day where they "overperform" or maybe they might "underperform".
I believe all players at that high level have god-tier mechanics, and i believe what truly sets apart the highest players from the rest of the pack is having a higher level of "mind mechanics". I believe what makes flash truly great is really mechanics of the mind, not mechanics of the hands, because I believe at THAT LEVEL nearly all of the korean super-top pros have equal powers when it comes to mechanics of the hands.
So because all the super-top pros are all fairly equally powerful when it comes to mechanics of the hands, you can tell a player is great if he seems to rise above the pack through mechanics of the mind, and flash seems to be doing that and hes still rapidly improving.
But at the end of the day whether or not you think flash is doing that is all a matter of opinion. Its all a gut feeling whether or not someone thinks or doesnt think he is a top10 player at the moment
the general skill gauge ive been using recently is looking at whichever MLG is the most recent MLG championship, normally the top4 korean players there are pretty strong and arguably in the worlds top10 at the moment (not including foreigners sadly just because such as when huk beat MC at a MLG, I didnt count him as a top 10 player sure he did very well but i mean there probably was 10 koreans in korea at that time that were better than him. when it comes to korean players however imo the top4 koreans at each MLG are most likely in the worlds top 10. but also remember the top10 probably changes every month so this "determining whether someone is top10" mindset is all still just likely mostly formed through opinions anyway so take it with a grain of salt
anyway what do you see when you look at last mlg? bomber, flash, leenock, and life all in the top 4. to be honest, those are also probably players in the top10 currently. Its funny how iffy bomber is though, he will crush through an entire tournament when hes having a good day and then go lose in the finals. Id say fantasy, parting, rain and players in that calibur are also in the top10 currently
It really is 100% opinion and there are no facts to support what anyone believes in this matter, It all just comes down to gut feeling and at the end of the day its all opinions. But IMO flash is currently a top10 player in the world, and if hypothetically he were to play a best of 3 against every player in code S next week I bet he would win over 80% of those games.
I think he is on the status that DRG was before destroying everyone on the GSL, when he used to all kill tons of people untill he got used to the GSL format.
On January 07 2013 09:41 tuho12345 wrote: he's still a couple level below Fantasy and MVP lol. As right now Fantasy is the best, MVP is injured so no comment.
Would you mind explaining your reasons for Fantasy being seeded 1, while MVP 2? Just out of curiousity.
This amounts to Wins: 10 Losses: 11 at 47.62% According to Liquipedia. Although his mechanics are good; there has to be a reason why he's losing all of these TvTs; although when he loses to Ts he loses only to the top-tier ones (minus Last)
He could be Code S level, but a lot of Code S deserving players have had trouble getting and staying in. Flash is a crazy awesome case to look at as we've seen. He started his solid only-Sc2 diet of ladder points just a few months ago and his mechanics and micro have taken him really damn far. I think it's only a matter of time before he really starts to hit a stride once he has all the exposure and experience that brought him titles and fame in BW.
In an interview he mentioned that he was practicing 50-60 games a day, not sure if that was every day, but that will certainly help his improvement.
On January 07 2013 09:44 Dodgin wrote: he's really good, just got unlucky that tiebreakers didn't favor him in up/downs
probably code s ro8 on a good day level
The only map he dropped was Cloud Kingdom. If you look at his history on that map it's not very good. He dropped on CK to both MC and Jaedong but won all of the other maps including his all-kill.
Also, people need to keep in mind that pro league players have a lot of different maps and match ups to practice. While GSL players only have to focus on a certain few maps for a certain player hence they face a lot less pressure then the Kespa players. Jaedong didn't participate in the EG pro league because he was focusing on the up/down matches whereas Flash had to practice for both which is a ton of different maps. Same goes for MC, he only had the GSL event to focus on and had a lot more preparation time.
I'm sure the pro league players will take off once everything is reset with HotS.
I really doubt he practices for gsl. Even in the times of osl/msl players would often practice for PL instead of the individual tournaments, and theres even less incentive to do so now because it's a non-kespa tournament. The pl matches yesterday speak for themselves.
Right now, I think he's improving faster than any of the other KeSPA players. And he's shown time and time again that he's capable of taking out big, well-established names in SC2. + Show Spoiler [yesterday's proleague] +
I mean, just look at his EGTL all-kill yesterday.
It won't be long before he's consistently in Code S and I won't be surprised if he's the next person to pick up the Nestea award.
I think Flash is at Code S level from what I've seen, but like the majority of Code S players he still makes mistakes.
It's hard to rate in that case. Do I rate the best I've seen from Flash, the worst, the average, etc? Because I mean you would never not rate MVP as a Code S player, but sometimes he looks worse than some players in Code B. And then there are times where he looks to be in a Code above every other player.
In current skill, Flash is definitely in the A/S region. And in my eyes that's practically the top 50-ish players in the world. He didn't make it for this or the last season, but there are a tonne of players that fluctuate far more heavily. Rain for example isn't Code B, yet there he is.
He's Code S caliber, but there are lots of players of code S quality who are not currently in Code S. Flash has gotten very close to being Code S twice however, and actually qualified on his own like a real man.
This amounts to Wins: 10 Losses: 11 at 47.62% According to Liquipedia. Although his mechanics are good; there has to be a reason why he's losing all of these TvTs; although when he loses to Ts he loses only to the top-tier ones (minus Last)
Ah, ok. It's just a matter of people not watching Starcraft and looking at a small sample size of results. Probably the same people that say Major is overrated.
Is there anyone that actually watches and analyzes his games that thinks his TvT is bad? I'd like to hear from him.
It's very clear that he's still a very dominant player right now, however, given a couple more months I believe Flash will be improving on a faster rate than anyone else and will most definitely become even more amazing than he is now. He has so much knowledge and skill from BW that has clearly carried over with him to sc2 and I think if we give it a little more time it will show immensely.
On January 07 2013 09:27 insanet wrote: Now that Bisu sucks, Flash fans have taken the lead as the most annoying fans of all.
According to Fantasy, Bisu is actually good again now. I'm having my doubts still though. But I agree, the Flash/Stephano fans are pretty bad, and seeing them collide in the LR thread yesterday was absolutely hilarious.
He stopped trying to do stupid things and actually beat Roro with a real build in PL. I guess that could be regarded as success.
He's code S for sure. I'd rank him as low-mid tier. He's not even close to living up to the astronomical hype he had coming into the game though (dominate the game in a few months my ass). I will say he's slowly finding his way and will surely be a top-tier terran this year, all the signs are there.
Flash is very similar to MVP and I like. He's more of the godly macro player who exercises methodical play with a little multipronged harass thrown in every now and then. I think he knows how to get away with his greed better than almost any player atm and he REALLY knows how to maintain a lead.
I don't agree that his tvt is bad at all. He seems good enough to me.
I think given proper analysis his TvZ can be exploited. I don't feel like he puts on enough pressure. He's kind of like how Bomber used to be. Even though he still would win a decent amount due to his insane macro.
His TvP is by far his strongest and may very well be among the best. He seems to have a great understanding of the mu as well.
I believe he is a Code S level player. This puts him in the Top 50 by my reckoning. I am more interested to see how much better he can become rather than arguing about his current ranking though.
While it does not mean terribly much to use "Code" anything to describe skill level, he is already top Code S level, but due to SC2 having a far lower skill cap and being more random than BW, his raw statistics do not really show so considering there is actually not much data to go off of. Definitely top 5 Terran. While still strong, his weakness is TvT. His rate of improvement is the highest among anyone, though. He mainly just needs to work on decision-making, which comes from experience/time. Everything is already top notch.
Starcraft 2 is a game in which anyone can beat anyone once you've reached a certain level in terms of skill. There are about 300 of those players at this level. I don't think a player can be ranked anywhere. It all depends on accomplishments, hypes, fan favorites; and accomplishments come from the amount of opportunities you get in tournaments. For example, Stephano. There is no player that gets more opportunities than Stephano. He gets sent around the world to any tournament he wants; and he only has about 53% winrate vs GSL dropout Koreans. Players like Life, Leenock, and DRG have much better winrates, mostly vs Code S, yet each won less money than Stephano. You can say Flash is gosu and a top player all you want (the fact that he's in Code A), but any good Code B can all kill a top team in his good day. Any good Code B can beat Flash on his good day. So, about a few hundred of them rank about the same in terms of skill, unless you're thinking of rank in terms of prize money won, hypes, fan favorite, or famous,.....?
He's definitely code S quality. The fact that he's dominating team leagues and not yet in Code S just seems reminiscent of MMA or DRG. There's a lot of luck and chance based on groups, matchups, and tiebreakers when it comes to making it through to Code S - the actual status of being in code S or not is not a clear cut indication of their skill level being the same as code S, when such competition in updowns, code A, or even code A qualifiers can be just as cutthroat and difficult.
He's clearly at code S level. Losing a couple of Bo1's and getting knocked out because of a ridiculous tiebreak system doesn't mean that he's a code A player.
On January 07 2013 10:04 NoGasfOu wrote: Starcraft 2 is a game in which anyone can beat anyone once you've reached a certain level in terms of skill. There are about 300 of those players at this level. I don't think a player can be ranked anywhere. It all depends on accomplishments, hypes, fan favorites; and accomplishments come from the amount of opportunities you get in tournaments. For example, Stephano. There is no player that gets more opportunities than Stephano. He gets sent around the world to any tournament he wants; and he only has about 53% winrate vs GSL dropout Koreans. Players like Life, Leenock, and DRG have much better winrates, mostly vs Code S, yet each won less money than Stephano. You can say Flash is gosu and a top player all you want (the fact that he's in Code A), but any good Code B can all kill a top team in his good day. Any good Code B can beat Flash on his good day. So, about a few hundred of them rank about the same in terms of skill, unless you're thinking of rank in terms of prize money won, hypes, fan favorite, or famous,.....?
On January 07 2013 10:04 NoGasfOu wrote: Starcraft 2 is a game in which anyone can beat anyone once you've reached a certain level in terms of skill. There are about 300 of those players at this level. I don't think a player can be ranked anywhere. It all depends on accomplishments, hypes, fan favorites; and accomplishments come from the amount of opportunities you get in tournaments. For example, Stephano. There is no player that gets more opportunities than Stephano. He gets sent around the world to any tournament he wants; and he only has about 53% winrate vs GSL dropout Koreans. Players like Life, Leenock, and DRG have much better winrates, mostly vs Code S, yet each won less money than Stephano. You can say Flash is gosu and a top player all you want (the fact that he's in Code A), but any good Code B can all kill a top team in his good day. Any good Code B can beat Flash on his good day. So, about a few hundred of them rank about the same in terms of skill, unless you're thinking of rank in terms of prize money won, hypes, fan favorite, or famous,.....?
Where are you getting those stats from?
I collected Stephano's stats from Liquipedia a few months ago when he was at the top of the hypes and made a thread that showed his wins/losses vs Koreans in Premier tournies.
I am not sure how this is even questionable; he doesn't look unbeatable, but saying there are 32 better players than him right now seems like a stretch.
his expectations were unreasonably high because of his god status in bw. though that's not his fault at all that happened. he's definitely low-mid tier code s right now, and capable of taking games off top top code s any day of the week. he's just not god status yet like he was in bw, which didn't happen over night you know. took about 3 years. he's been on sc2 for less than a year...
The first person that came to mind about flash's rank (largely because of his recent all-kill) would be Second half of 2011 Dongraegu. Dongraegu was considered to be one of the best zerg's at the time but had great difficulty getting into Code S until MLG helped him out. Everyone knew that DRG was good but DRG just couldn't come through with a major win until IEM (and that was against Fruitdealer).
Flash is Code S material (or high Code A). It's just that his results are not indicative of his ability.
edit: also his past doesn't help him. In a way, SC2 Flash and BW Flash are two different people. Comparing SC2 Flash with BW Flash would make SC2 Flash's results underwhelming.
He definitely has the potential to be in Code S. He was pretty darn close to making it this time around. Lots of people would consider Stats as KT's ace atm when you could make a case for a lot of them. KT's roster has been pretty monstrous of late.
Flash appears to be borderline low Code S level right now. I think in 4 months he will be one of the best SC2 players in the world if not the best. Some of the mechanical changes in the game play to his macro strengths such as easily changing rally points en masse. He is constantly reinforcing and has absurd macro. Once he gets all the intricacies down it's back to the top for him. Most importantly, he really wants to be the best again judging by his practice schedule. The same can't be said for some of the other BW greats.
I think most people that showed up to TL for SC2 don't really understand just how insanely dominant he can be and how great of an RTS mind he has. You gon' learn.
On January 07 2013 10:04 NoGasfOu wrote: Starcraft 2 is a game in which anyone can beat anyone once you've reached a certain level in terms of skill. There are about 300 of those players at this level. I don't think a player can be ranked anywhere. It all depends on accomplishments, hypes, fan favorites; and accomplishments come from the amount of opportunities you get in tournaments. For example, Stephano. There is no player that gets more opportunities than Stephano. He gets sent around the world to any tournament he wants; and he only has about 53% winrate vs GSL dropout Koreans. Players like Life, Leenock, and DRG have much better winrates, mostly vs Code S, yet each won less money than Stephano. You can say Flash is gosu and a top player all you want (the fact that he's in Code A), but any good Code B can all kill a top team in his good day. Any good Code B can beat Flash on his good day. So, about a few hundred of them rank about the same in terms of skill, unless you're thinking of rank in terms of prize money won, hypes, fan favorite, or famous,.....?
Where are you getting those stats from?
I collected Stephano's stats from Liquipedia a few months ago when he was at the top of the hypes and made a thread that showed his wins/losses vs Koreans in Premier tournies.
OK. They look inaccurate to me. I looked at his stats myself over the summer/autumn and IIRC he had ~66% win rate vs Code S Level Korean Terrans in tournaments. I might compile some sound data for his complete record for 2012 against Koreans and post it here at TL.
He's obviously a very good player but I don't think it means much to say code S or code A level anymore. We're blessed with so many highly skilled players that 32 spots a season isn't adequate in expressing the skill level of the much broader top-tier level of SC2 players.
In regards to Flash, I think the U&D's from group A do a good job of summarizing his current rank.
His macro is excellent fundamentally but part of the reason for why it's so dominant at times is because he's literally over-cutting corners and gambling hard to try get a leg up on his opponent. I've yet to see a more greedy macro player in SC2. For someone coming from the culture of meticulous preparation, how could you internally justify not building a bunker after an early CC against MC? If it was a conscious decisions that just shows his decision making is no there yet in SC2. If it was just a mistake then that just goes to show his attention to detail is not there yet.
Against Jaedong, he dies to a mid-game mid-econ baneling bust because he's just caught with his pants down. Triple expand (as opposed to keeping the third OC in your base a little longer), siege mode not done. Loses like 30 SCVs and essentially the game.
You just can't play that greedy in SC2 and expect to have Bonjwa level win-rates. All-ins are just too effective. It's like when MC first rose to dominance and was playing greedy as hell. Sure, when opponents didn't pressure him (July letting him go Nexus first with no forge, no cannons, and he hits him the fastest PvZ 6-gate all-in we'd ever seen), he looks dominant but then everyone started all-inning him and he'd just BO lose a lot of games. Flash is going to be forced to play safer, and once he does, the macro that people keep pointing to won't look as dominant.
Despite what happened yesterday Flash is code S in my opinion... Jaedong threw a winnable diamond level game vs MC.
a lot of unlucky circumstance put him into code A, not to mention yoda, mc, younghwa praticed at the same house so im not saying younghwa dropped the last game on purpose but... it would make sense when your 0-4 to let win your friend...
On January 07 2013 10:04 NoGasfOu wrote: Starcraft 2 is a game in which anyone can beat anyone once you've reached a certain level in terms of skill. There are about 300 of those players at this level. I don't think a player can be ranked anywhere. It all depends on accomplishments, hypes, fan favorites; and accomplishments come from the amount of opportunities you get in tournaments. For example, Stephano. There is no player that gets more opportunities than Stephano. He gets sent around the world to any tournament he wants; and he only has about 53% winrate vs GSL dropout Koreans. Players like Life, Leenock, and DRG have much better winrates, mostly vs Code S, yet each won less money than Stephano. You can say Flash is gosu and a top player all you want (the fact that he's in Code A), but any good Code B can all kill a top team in his good day. Any good Code B can beat Flash on his good day. So, about a few hundred of them rank about the same in terms of skill, unless you're thinking of rank in terms of prize money won, hypes, fan favorite, or famous,.....?
Where are you getting those stats from?
I collected Stephano's stats from Liquipedia a few months ago when he was at the top of the hypes and made a thread that showed his wins/losses vs Koreans in Premier tournies.
OK. They look inaccurate to me. I looked at his stats myself over the summer/autumn and IIRC he had ~66% win rate vs Code S Level Korean Terrans in tournaments. I might compile some sound data for his complete record for 2012 against Koreans and post it here at TL.
Nope, MLG posted their stats of players vs Koreans as well. Stephano was sub 50%. He is by far the most overrated player in SC2. By how much praise he gets, you'd think he'd win every foreign gutter tourney he attends. Yet he struggles against foreign zergs and GSL dropouts.
On January 07 2013 10:15 StarStruck wrote: He definitely has the potential to be in Code S. He was pretty darn close to making it this time around. Lots of people would consider Stats as KT's ace atm when you could make a case for a lot of them. KT's roster has been pretty monstrous of late.
Stats has definitely been extremely good, but I don't think that many people would call him KT's ace. There's one major thing you have to keep in mind from his games this season: every single one has been on Ohana. Particularly in winner's league when you have to play on multiple maps, I think we have to wait to see how he does before saying if he can rival Flash's position as ace.
I would say he's code S material and is maintaining a steady rate of progress. When he's playing good he can take games off of anyone, but he still makes dumb (but easily correctable) mistakes.
On January 07 2013 09:19 BeyondCtrL wrote: I think he is Code S level, his performance in the SPL yesterday just cemented his position as a Code S level player, in my mind at least.
Why? Half the people he beat arent in Code A even. And when he did play fellow Code A players he was at the very least relegated to the wildcard round.
Is he a Code S Player? If so, high, medium or lower tier? Or is he a Code A Player?
I would call him borderline Code S. Though he didn't make it into Code S his group was really tough.
Is he on par with players of this calibre of the best that Kespa has to offer or is he a tier below?
He is basically on par with the best Kespa players or close enough to not make it matter.
From an objective perspective: Is he overhyped/overrated?
He's obviously tremendously overhyped. With the amount of hype around him, even if he was playing at the level of MVP at his peak, I'd still consider him overhyped.
Is he really just an average Code A calibre player, overhyped by previous accomplishments?
I wouldn't call him average, since he is progressing so fast, and he is decidedly better than Code A.
Is he a projected player to become top-tier amongst the current SC2 crop of players?
On January 07 2013 10:04 NoGasfOu wrote: Starcraft 2 is a game in which anyone can beat anyone once you've reached a certain level in terms of skill. There are about 300 of those players at this level. I don't think a player can be ranked anywhere. It all depends on accomplishments, hypes, fan favorites; and accomplishments come from the amount of opportunities you get in tournaments. For example, Stephano. There is no player that gets more opportunities than Stephano. He gets sent around the world to any tournament he wants; and he only has about 53% winrate vs GSL dropout Koreans. Players like Life, Leenock, and DRG have much better winrates, mostly vs Code S, yet each won less money than Stephano. You can say Flash is gosu and a top player all you want (the fact that he's in Code A), but any good Code B can all kill a top team in his good day. Any good Code B can beat Flash on his good day. So, about a few hundred of them rank about the same in terms of skill, unless you're thinking of rank in terms of prize money won, hypes, fan favorite, or famous,.....?
Where are you getting those stats from?
I collected Stephano's stats from Liquipedia a few months ago when he was at the top of the hypes and made a thread that showed his wins/losses vs Koreans in Premier tournies.
OK. They look inaccurate to me. I looked at his stats myself over the summer/autumn and IIRC he had ~66% win rate vs Code S Level Korean Terrans in tournaments. I might compile some sound data for his complete record for 2012 against Koreans and post it here at TL.
Nope, MLG posted their stats of players vs Koreans as well. Stephano was sub 50%. He is by far the most overrated player in SC2. By how much praise he gets, you'd think he'd win every foreign gutter tourney he attends. Yet he struggles against foreign zergs and GSL dropouts.
Weren't the MLG stats only specific to the MvP tournament?
On January 07 2013 09:26 PhoenixVoid wrote: I would say Flash is at least a Ro32 Code S player, with a TvZ/TvP nearing Ro16. Beyond his weak TvT (which is around Code A), he can be a consistent Code S player with maybe a few dips into high Code A, but I don't see Flash making it to Ro8, let alone a finals in GSL yet. But give him time, I expect him to show Ro8 level play by March-April.
Code A level TvT? When Bogus and Baby are easily the best TvTers outthere.
On January 07 2013 10:26 j4vz wrote: Despite what happened yesterday Flash is code S in my opinion... Jaedong threw a winnable diamond level game vs MC.
a lot of unlucky circumstance put him into code A, not to mention yoda, mc, younghwa praticed at the same house so im not saying younghwa dropped the last game on purpose but... it would make sense when your 0-4 to let win your friend...
No, it doesn't make sense to throw games under any situation. How about you ask Byun and Coca how that turned out for them.
If you watched the game, Yonghwa clearly wasn't throwing the game. Not only that, but apparently Yonghwa was also sick. And, I'm assuming English is not your main language because it makes no sense to say "im not saying younghwa dropped the last game on purpose but... it would make sense when your 0-4 to let win your friend..." I'm not saying he threw the last game, but I'm heavily implying that I think he did.
Is he a Code S Player? If so, high, medium or lower tier? High to Medium Code S layer
From an objective perspective: Is he overhyped/overrated? No, he just showed yesterday with amazing all kill record vs Taeja, JYP, Hero, and Revival. And all those players are Code S quality players. Just result from yesterday shows he can be the best like he was in SC:BW. Not just that when you see all his matches, whenever he loses, its either lack of understanding in SC2 or the opponent did some sort of all in to get a win from him and he wasn’t prepared for it. Which is often the case for Flash because everyone is afraid of Flash when they go hand to hand macro battle. Is he really just an average Code A calibre player, overhyped by previous accomplishments? No, as I mentioned earlier, he is not Code A calibre player, he is definitely Code S. I would like to say he will always stay in top 10 and slowly reach for that number one spot. Is he a projected player to become top-tier amongst the current SC2 crop of players? Definitely, without a doubt. How long will that take, I would say he will achieve that within a year.
On January 07 2013 09:14 LighT. wrote: Weaknesses: - TvT (In the Proleagues he has lost to: Bogus, Fantasy) for a 9-3 record - greediness (usually settles for CC first), exposed to early harass and timings - game sense isnt up to maphack-esque sense he had in SC: BW - strategies; not fully exposed to all the different playstyles due to fully adjusting to SC2 5-6 months ago.
Bogus and Fantasy are very good players, and losing to them is no shame, especially Fantasy. Flash will eventually win vs them, just give him some time to work his problems out. He is greedy but that’s one of the way to get better at sc2 and be as safe as possible in any match up. Game sense… well he just started playing few months ago. Again this will take time, because SCBW and SC2 is two different games. Strategies, like you said, he hasn’t played SC2 for first two years and half of the entire SC2 career. There are things that he has not encountered that people used to use when they were playing since beta of SC2.
As long as, someone like Startale_Life shows up every 6 months or more, I do not think anyone will be able to overcome Flash's dominance. Flash will get there and claim his righteous Code S champion trophy very soon.
On January 07 2013 09:19 BeyondCtrL wrote: I think he is Code S level, his performance in the SPL yesterday just cemented his position as a Code S level player, in my mind at least.
Why? Half the people he beat arent in Code A even. And when he did play fellow Code A players he was at the very least relegated to the wildcard round.
He went 7-2 against code S/code A players. Regardless of how it impacted his position in the GSL, most would say that that's pretty damn good.
On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days.
There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o
Not to mention he just lost out to yoda, people have already discussed bogus and fantasy as better. Clearly MVP has to be in the picture. Then there is MKP, Ryung, and I could go on. I would probably place him around top 15 korean terran for what it's worth.
I know alot of people bring his all kill yesterday. But is the all-kill really that impressive considering its a BO1?
I think we need to give him some times Maybe he is CodeS-caliber, maybe he has the potential. But what matters is that he isn't right now, so he's not Code S, end of story.
Winning a whole tournament (that includes a bunch of best of), imo, is more impressive and should indicate the player's skill with more accuracy
He is very good, at least Code A level (obviously because he is in Code A right now). His performance in SPL last night proved this. Give him a few more months and he will be dominating Code S.
On January 07 2013 09:27 Thieving Magpie wrote: Reminds me of a consistent bomber; but doesn't get cocky. It took a year of GSL for MVP to finally do well, and last night he lost to (supposedly) IM's best player. With IM holding more GSLs than any other team, that is not something to be taken lightly.
I'd say he is at Ryung/Taeja levels right now. Strong and consistent performances that get better with time, but just always one game short of going all the way.
Mvp won his first GSL less than six months after the tournament started, and was considered a top Terran before that...
Anyway, I'd say that right now Flash is showing the best macro we've seen since Mvp in 2011, but his micro isn't top notch and he shows weakness to particularly aggressive/all-in play. It's difficult to say where he'll end up as of now though because we're in for a metagame reset in a few months and nobody really knows how HotS will look at the pro level.
So what if we knew exactly where Flash rests on the progamer ranking? Of course he's over-hyped: back in bw there was a period when the peak elo thread got bumped every time he played a match. People taking one game off of him was a huge event (MVP was one of them).
Right now he's not dominating everyone left and right. For Flash that's all that matters, and he won't rest until he does. As a fan I'll just root for him and see if he can do it.
On January 07 2013 09:27 Thieving Magpie wrote: Reminds me of a consistent bomber; but doesn't get cocky. It took a year of GSL for MVP to finally do well, and last night he lost to (supposedly) IM's best player. With IM holding more GSLs than any other team, that is not something to be taken lightly.
I'd say he is at Ryung/Taeja levels right now. Strong and consistent performances that get better with time, but just always one game short of going all the way.
Mvp won his first GSL less than six months after the tournament started, and was considered a top Terran before that...
Anyway, I'd say that right now Flash is showing the best macro we've seen since Mvp in 2011, but his micro isn't top notch and he shows weakness to particularly aggressive/all-in play. It's difficult to say where he'll end up as of now though because we're in for a metagame reset in a few months and nobody really knows how HotS will look at the pro level.
Terran is literally the exact same thing. You can't do anything different in any matchup but TvT. He'll be fine.
His eye twitch. I thought that was cured a while ago because i just never saw it again.....then I saw it against bogus! It has to be a reflex of something
I've actually been most impressed by his micro and battle management. It's kind of the opposite of Jaedong right now, who has great overall strategies and then just screws it up in the end by sending his banelings in the wrong direction. Flash's weakness right now seems to be in the strategic department. Starting off with his CC first, or not putting down a bunker, and then paying for it.
On January 07 2013 12:18 SniXSniPe wrote: When I watch him play, his micro does not stand out as amazing in comparison to a number of top level Terrans.
...also the fact that he plays a predictable CC first style ~.~
I still believe he is obviously Code S level.
Fantasy's micro always > flash's micro, Flash just had ridiculously good game sense and strategies and macro ability that let him win almost any situation and never lose from an advantage. He doesn't really have the game sense yet so imo he's code A.
Flash is pretty damn good. He just needs to shore up some of his game sense a bit.
His macro is amazing and it's fueled heavily by his greedy playstyle. He's got a lot of holes in his early gameplay that's just waiting to be punished (and it has been). After that, his mid and late game is solid as hell.
He's on the cusp of Code S. Just a few tweaks, he'll be right in there with the big boys.
On January 07 2013 12:23 Kettchup wrote: I've actually been most impressed by his micro and battle management. It's kind of the opposite of Jaedong right now, who has great overall strategies and then just screws it up in the end by sending his banelings in the wrong direction. Flash's weakness right now seems to be in the strategic department. Starting off with his CC first, or not putting down a bunker, and then paying for it.
what? Jaedong has insane macro, but his ingame decision making and micro is just bad.
On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days.
There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o
I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all.
Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all.
There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion.
I think he's code S level without a doubt. The fact that he failed to get into code S twice does not really mean he isn't at that level. It doesn't work like that.
On January 07 2013 12:23 Kettchup wrote: I've actually been most impressed by his micro and battle management. It's kind of the opposite of Jaedong right now, who has great overall strategies and then just screws it up in the end by sending his banelings in the wrong direction. Flash's weakness right now seems to be in the strategic department. Starting off with his CC first, or not putting down a bunker, and then paying for it.
exaclty the same was said about flash back in bw days when he got eliminated from msl by kwanro of all people. half a year later, he started the most successful and dominating year professional rts gaming has ever witnessed.
He's code A level right now. His TvT will continue to be his weakness, and honestly, he has never got into Code S. He's tried for 2 straight seasons and failed. He's not Code S level until he's in Code S. Should go without saying.
In that dark and damp an crowded Up&Down Limbo level where a lot of pros are. Code S on a good day, Code A on others.
His micro is pretty lackluster to be honest. His splitting isn't as good as Bbyong or even hOn_sin. His map awareness also needs some work (often gets caught moving his army, for example). Strategically still a little inexperienced. These are things he can work on though.
I don't think Flash is overhyped and even if he was, hype is good for SC2.
If it weren't for KeSPA players, I'd probably wouldn't be watching SC2 or playing it that much.
SC2 is still not a popular game, so more hype is better (keeps things alive and may help attract new viewers).
Flash has had a ton of success in BW, more than any other BW player.
Flash at his prime was better than anyone in both BW and SC2 at their prime.
Also the up and downs were really close (he went 3-2, tied with Jaedong and MC).
He has shown a lot of potential already in SC2 and IMO, I don't think he's overhyped at all. (Plus again, like I said, hype is good for the game if it helps keep things refreshing.)
With Flash gone, it's up to Fantasy (who is vastly underhyped) and Jaedong (still in, just need to get out of the Wildcards) to step it up and prove the KeSPA players have got what it takes to win a GSL (at least before HotS kicks in and everyone has to reset).
Fantasy has potential. Yesterday he 3-0 in SPL, and he has shown to be improving at the rate as Flash.
Sadly I was hoping for a Flash vs MVP finals this season (would have been epic). Would have root for MVP to win it (I am a Flash fan but MVP has done a lot for SC2 IMO). Like someone said (was it Artosis?), MVP was the one who showed (post Zerg buff, pre Zerg nerf) that Terran still could win (Life vs MVP was really close).
Plus, he plays hard despite his wrist injury. He said GSL made a 5 victory trophy, and it'd be nice if he ended off WoL with 5 GSL wins.
Rooting for Fantasy vs MVP finals.
On January 07 2013 12:39 Wingblade wrote: He's code A level right now. His TvT will continue to be his weakness, and honestly, he has never got into Code S. He's tried for 2 straight seasons and failed. He's not Code S level until he's in Code S. Should go without saying.
People underrated his TvT because of his recorded win rate but yesterday of the games he lost, he only lost to MC and Jaedong. He defeated Yoda (Terran) and he did well against Taeja in SPL.
Also when people say Code S level, they generally mean if they can have a 50/50 win rate against people in Code S.
Obviously, it'd be a silly discussion if "Code S level" simply meant being in Code S.
Someone mentioned DRG earlier but he's a good example of a Code S level player before being able to get into Code S after a while. Individual and team leagues are different (in how you practice against opponents, etc) but for the most part, since they're still playing the same game, it's not that much different.
The best way to really determine this is to determine win rates in non-GSL tournaments against current Code S players (Fantasy, Jaedong potentially included, if they make it to Code S, Bogus is already in) but I'm not sure if there are that many tournaments before WoL ends (that Flash can participate in anyway).
On January 07 2013 12:39 Wingblade wrote: He's code A level right now. His TvT will continue to be his weakness, and honestly, he has never got into Code S. He's tried for 2 straight seasons and failed. He's not Code S level until he's in Code S. Should go without saying.
You don't attain the best record in Proleague by accident.
On January 07 2013 12:39 Wingblade wrote: He's code A level right now. His TvT will continue to be his weakness, and honestly, he has never got into Code S. He's tried for 2 straight seasons and failed. He's not Code S level until he's in Code S. Should go without saying.
You don't attain the best record in Proleague by accident.
When I consider not just the fact of his all-kill last night, but the way in which he beat taeja and hero, I consider him a code-s player. Some posters have been questioning his strategies and game-sense. Those games last night showed a very impressive game sense and strategic where-with-all, specifically in his nearly always being a base up-- always ready with the next expansion. Against a really tenacious effort by Hero, who unfortunately picked a bad build for antiga, I think, Flash constantly contained Hero and ground him down.
I dunno, something about the way he just made it feel impossible for them to come back from what started out as a small deficit was class.
On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days.
There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o
I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all.
People tend to say this when there favorite player does not make it but never explain why. If you said this before the whole code S switch sure, since it was nearly impossible to fall out but now every season you get these people knocking against each other and only the top8 even stay in code S for sure. The rest has to go through code A or even worse, those fearsome up and downs.
On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days.
There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o
I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all.
Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all.
There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion.
You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S.
God material. As of now, though, I'd say he's a mid-code S player. He probably would have made it through any other up&down group, and his performance in SPL last night was amazing. His macro is amazing, his stage experience is great, and I'd expect him to be a championship winner over the course of 2013.
Seems to have godly macro, but just not the overall package to compete with Code S players prepared for that tournament.
I'd say top of Code A, because, well, that's where he is. Yes the up/downs are a bit random, but remember, he got put there because he didn't make it out of Code A proper. I think it's also funny that fans point to the SPL all-kill as evidence for his greatness when those matches are also all BO1's and a bit random too. Team leagues can indicate skill, but the true test comes in individual leagues. So far Flash has underperformed in the highest level individual league there is.
I think during any given match, he can beat Code S players (even the upper tier ones), in straight up games.
IF he's not Code S caliber, the only reason imo is that he's not well rounded enough. He seems godly already when he's left to do his build the way he wants to, or when he gets into a macro game, but various all-ins and cheeses can still catch him off guard. I think that's why TvT is still his worst matchup, sooo many strong early attacks that you have to be aware of, and he simply hasn't had enough time to study them all.
So he could easily make it into Code S in certain groups, he could just as easily lose and not make it (like he just did) because of his lack of SC2 build order knowledge. There's no doubt in my mind though that he's improving faster than just about anyone else though, and that given more time (or when HotS comes out), he will be S class easily.
Joking aside he's good, not best in the world, but good. He still needs more time before he can get really good. He should also probably focus on not going 14CC every..single...game lol he keeps dying when doing it xD
On January 07 2013 12:52 hansonslee wrote: I think Flash's play is really predictable during the early game (such as his greedy CC first, it's like the terran version of the Idra beta-build )
But he gets very scary after that phase. And his TvT has actually been improving A LOT lately. So, I wouldn't consider that as much as a weakness.
If he continues working hard and stays true to himself, he will definitely be a Code S championship contender.
Any good mechanical player (jaedong/flash/etc) if they do a super greedy opening and don't get punished, of course their going to be super scary. That's the point of being super greedy, but it can also backfire and you lose in really stupid way (flash losing to 1 stalker and 1 zealot for example, those 2 units pretty much fucked him so hard lol).
On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days.
There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o
I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all.
Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all.
There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion.
You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S.
So you think the qualification system should be better and more indepth...or what?
The ones who win their games are the ones who get into Code S, how are they not the best?
Yeah, that's what I noticed about the KeSPA veterans. They have signature styles that define their strengths. However, at the same time, it becomes their own undoing because players now have a lot of access to VODs to figure out the best counter to the elephants' style. BW had a HUGE technical gap such as good unit control (which was pretty difficult because the BW unit AI was pretty retarded), hotkeys, etc. But now, SC2 had narrowed that gap and introduced newer and simpler mechanics.
I think what made MVP really good during his prime was his dynamic playstyle and his effective execution of it. I think that's the new thing in SC2.
On January 07 2013 12:52 hansonslee wrote: I think Flash's play is really predictable during the early game (such as his greedy CC first, it's like the terran version of the Idra beta-build )
But he gets very scary after that phase. And his TvT has actually been improving A LOT lately. So, I wouldn't consider that as much as a weakness.
If he continues working hard and stays true to himself, he will definitely be a Code S championship contender.
Flash's builds are usually very greedy (CC first) or very aggressive (Proxy marauders/reapers).
On January 07 2013 12:47 silverstyle wrote: The fact that he did not manage to qualify for Code S twice now. Obviously means he is not Code S level.
He's somewhere just below Code S though. Esp with his All kill last night.
I posted this before but just not being able to get into Code S doesn't mean not Code S level.
What people usually mean (at least what I assume when I hear Code S level) is whether they can face off against current Code S players 50/50.
Edit - To those who just say Code S level are for only people in Code S, then it''d pointless discussion and "Code S level" would be redundant with just saying Code S player. Though, I'd say it's a worthy discussion (o discuss if players outside of Code S are evenly match against Code S level players (what I assume this topic is for, outside of Flash fan bandwagoning), even if it attracts massive Flash fanboys and fangirls. Again, fans and hyping and overhyping players are important for eSports!
There are plenty of players not in Code S that do that in various other tournaments.
Yes, team league and non-GSL tournaments in general are different but that doesn't discount or discredit wins outside of GSL.
For example, take MLG for example. MLG, you face off against different players with little to no preparation. Someone who consistently wins or does good against current Code S level players in MLG, but can't make it to the GSL (for example or for whatever reason) I'd say is GSL Code S level.
Now for team leagues, team leagues can definitely show skill. It's different than Code S but just because Code S is regarded as the most prestigious tournament doesn't mean everything else is discredited (there are different ways to make money and succeed in SC2 outside of the GSL).
Anyway I said this before but the best way to see if someone is Code S level (relatively speaking), if to see how well said person does against Code S players outside of GSL.
It's too bad Proleague and GSTL didn't combine or something, or else we'd have something to really compare. Again, DRG is a good example of a Code S level player before being able to get into Code S. Yes, the individual and team formats are different but I definitely say that either league shouldn't be discredited just because it's different. Takes a different skill set but not that much different (especially in Winner's league format where you can't get away with just practicing one build in one map over and over, Winner's league compares to a more traditional tournament where you may face multiple opponents at once without specific preparation like MLG).
On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days.
There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o
I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all.
Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all.
There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion.
You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S.
I would be really curious to hear what your top five is exactly. I think that Flash is a talented player, but he has some weaknesses to his game. Right now he does incredibly well if you let him play his game, but players who bring the fight to Flash have had a lot of problems. EG-TL let Flash play his game and got all-killed, whereas MC really brought the fight to Flash and punished his style. Also Flash's vT is not that great like it was in BW. Flash's play is great, but it has holes, and therefore I don't understand how you can put him as one of the top five Terrans, mainly because that is such a competitive field. We're talking about a field that includes, but is not limited to: Bogus, Mvp, MarineKing, Ryung, YoDa, Happy, Noblesse, Hack, KeeN, GumiHo, BaBy, Taeja, Fantasy, and I'm sure a few more who I've forgotten. There are a lot of really good Terrans, and while Flash might be better than some of the players I just listed, he's not better than most of them, at least not yet.
But I think the question of ranking the best Terrans is an interesting question. As for their skill across all three match-ups, I would put Mvp, MarineKing, and Ryung as the top class for obvious reasons. Personally I think that Bogus is up there as well despite his loss to Fantasy yesterday, but I wouldn't put Flash at the top tier quite yet.
Flash is already one of the best SC2 players and improving at an insane rate compared to everyone one else.
Watching all his games yesterday, his downfall was being super greedy in GSL. I'm sure once he knows to tone down the greed just a tiny bit he will be unstoppable.
On January 07 2013 12:47 silverstyle wrote: The fact that he did not manage to qualify for Code S twice now. Obviously means he is not Code S level.
He's somewhere just below Code S though. Esp with his All kill last night.
I posted this before but just not being able to get into Code S doesn't mean not Code S level.
What people usually mean (at least what I assume when I hear Code S level) is whether they can face off against current Code S players 50/50.
There are plenty of players not in Code S that do that in various other tournaments.
Yes, team league and non-GSL tournaments in general are different but that doesn't discount or discredit wins outside of GSL.
For example, take MLG for example. MLG, you face off against different players with little to no preparation. Someone who consistently wins or does good against current Code S level players in MLG, but can't make it to the GSL (for example or for whatever reason) I'd say is GSL Code S level.
Now for team leagues, team leagues can definitely show skill. It's different than Code S but just because Code S is regarded as the most prestigious tournament doesn't mean everything else is discredited (there are different ways to make money and succeed in SC2 outside of the GSL).
Anyway I said this before but the best way to see if someone is Code S level (relatively speaking), if to see how well said person does against Code S players outside of GSL.
It's too bad Proleague and GSTL didn't combine or something, or else we'd have something to really compare. Again, DRG is a good example of a Code S level player before being able to get into Code S. Yes, the individual and team formats are different but I definitely say that either league shouldn't be discredited just because it's different. Takes a different skill set but not that much different (especially in Winner's league format where you can't get away with just practicing one build in one map over and over, Winner's league compares to a more traditional tournament where you may face multiple opponents at once without specific preparation like MLG).
Frankly, I disagree with what you're saying. Perhaps being "Code S level" doesn't correlate directly with "best players," but if you cannot qualify for Code S, you are not Code S level. For a long time Puzzle was considered one of the best players, but he was not in Code S. He dominated the Korean ladder and any Korean who was asked about him said that he was one of the best players in the world. But he was not Code S, therefore you can't say he was Code S level. If you are not playing in Code S, you are not playing at Code S level. I think you should try to make more clear of a distinction between playing at what you call "Code S Level" and being the best player. Puzzle or DongRaeGu are perfect examples of how tournament format prevents Code S from being the top 32 players, but those players all are technically playing "at Code S level."
On January 07 2013 13:03 Netsky wrote: Flash is already one of the best SC2 players and improving at an insane rate compared to everyone one else.
Watching all his games yesterday, his downfall was being super greedy in GSL. I'm sure once he knows to tone down the greed just a tiny bit he will be unstoppable.
I am not sure about that. Bogus, Fantasy, Baby have all shown similiar rate of improvement, especially Fantasy.
As for the second statement, same could be said for MKP. Being greedy is not a weakness as much as a trade off. We have to remember that if Flash wasn't as greedy, he might not the mid game advantage which snowballs from the early game. If a player is always able to play as greedy as possible without getting punished, that player would have a big advantage in every game.
I am pretty sure Flash knew that building that bunker would make him 100% safe. But he thought about the chances of him getting punished and felt he could take that chance. Obviously, it didn't work out in this case but sometimes you have to take them. I mean, you see terran players die to roach all-ins all the time. I think they know that if they just built 2 bunkers and a couple marauders, they are 100% safe. But if the timing doesn't come and the zerg does fast 3rd, you play from behind.
You would be surprise how being just 3-4 workers lower than your 'optimal' build early game snowballs in the mid/late game. Pro builds are so tight that being able to get a banshee out 10 seconds earlier, have stim 10 seconds earlier, etc has a huge effect on the mid/late game. You cannot simply look at the resources. 100 gas early game >> 100 gas late game
On January 07 2013 12:23 Kettchup wrote: I've actually been most impressed by his micro and battle management. It's kind of the opposite of Jaedong right now, who has great overall strategies and then just screws it up in the end by sending his banelings in the wrong direction. Flash's weakness right now seems to be in the strategic department. Starting off with his CC first, or not putting down a bunker, and then paying for it.
exaclty the same was said about flash back in bw days when he got eliminated from msl by kwanro of all people. half a year later, he started the most successful and dominating year professional rts gaming has ever witnessed.
this by far is the most exciting thing for me. it's like he's regressed back a few years back to his old bw days and is trying to find perfection again. it came at a cost in bw to 14cc every game also, but a year later it paid off
He is one of the best Kespa players, and could easily be low Code S level. Rain seems to be the only Kespa player who is on par with the top ESF players. That may change with time, considering the unmatched training discipline these guys possess.
I think the big question with these top Kespa players (and all pros for that matter) is whether hots will break their stride. We're just a few months away from when most tournaments will begin the switch, and I doubt that the top Kespa and gsl players are playing a lot of hots at the moment.
On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days.
There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o
I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all.
Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all.
There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion.
You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S.
So you think the qualification system should be better and more indepth...or what?
The ones who win their games are the ones who get into Code S, how are they not the best?
So each GSL winner is automatically the best player on earth? More than a few champions and tons of runner ups have fallen off, some rather quickly and others over time. No I don't think the GSL system needs to be more in depth. Obviously getting to Code S is a major accomplishment, I'm not trying to downplay that fact. I think BaBy was one of the worse opponents for him to face and given a different draw he could have made it to Code S. If each season's Code S solidly defined the top players then threads like this wouldn't exist, no?
Doesn't really matter how good he is now. The rate he's improving, he'll be on top soon enough, that is unless Blizzard further nerfs terran to the ground.
On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days.
There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o
I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all.
Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all.
There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion.
You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S.
So you think the qualification system should be better and more indepth...or what?
The ones who win their games are the ones who get into Code S, how are they not the best?
So each GSL winner is automatically the best player on earth? More than a few champions and tons of runner ups have fallen off, some rather quickly and others over time. No I don't think the GSL system needs to be more in depth. Obviously getting to Code S is a major accomplishment, I'm not trying to downplay that fact. I think BaBy was one of the worse opponents for him to face and given a different draw he could have made it to Code S. If each season's Code S solidly defined the top players then threads like this wouldn't exist, no?
I have no idea what this has to do with what you said originally, but to answer your question, winning GSL means you are the best player in that season. Since the GSL is the hardest league it makes you the best player until the next season.
Sure, Flash could win games in code s and go far potentially, why not. I just don't understand why you said GSL doesn't show the best players, because the best player ( Life ) is in Code S, and winning GSL twice made him the best player.
On January 07 2013 13:19 dsousa wrote: I think he can beat anyone in the world on any given day.
That goes for a lot of players. If you are talking about BO1 that is. I can think of at least 10 players he would have a very small chance against in a BO5.
On January 07 2013 14:15 MysteryMeat1 wrote: IDK i think Flash is borderline CODE S but honestly within a couple of months will be making ro16 appereances in GSL code S.
his tvp is sooo good.
EDIT: Also he looked a little flimsy vs Revival who isn't the greatest zerg player.
On January 07 2013 13:19 dsousa wrote: I think he can beat anyone in the world on any given day.
That goes for a lot of players. If you are talking about BO1 that is. I can think of at least 10 players he would have a very small chance against in a BO5.
Not sure who those 10 might be who can outright sweep or make it seem completely one-sided against Flash.. Maybe its my fanboy-ism talking but..
Off the top of my head.
Zergs: FXO.Leenock. ST Life Hyun
(Not DRG (already beaten on record), Not Symbol (chokes hard vs Kespa players), Not Sniper (it'd be a close series with Sniper having a slight edge), Stephano (close series with Stephano having the edge), Soulkey (edge Flash in this one), Jaedong (close series, about even), meh to Violet.
Protoss: Creator.Prime SKT T1 Rain
Squirtle/Seed/MC/herO/HerO/Parting would all have very close series with Flash.
Terran: FXO.Gumiho Fantasy
MVP = No because he's injured and recovering.. Bomber = Too inconsistent Taeja = very interesting series with edge on Taeja Baby= Harassment vs Strategy in this close series Innovation = One game sample size...havent seen too many of his TvTs MKP = close series Polt = Strategy vs Force.. Byun = *shrugs*
theres less than 10 players IMO where Flash is heavily unfavored to win
He's not overhyped, but he is overpriced in FPL. Well, most high price players in FPL are, he's not the worst case at all, somewhere in the middle and better. As to his level in SC2, just wait. In a year his results will be telling the story better than us speculating. I'm not 100% sure he would be able to dominate SC2 in any totality, but I expect pretty good results from him.
The thing is, Flash has this winner sense and stamina, he knows how to win a tournament and makes it happen. When put in a league with similarly skilled players, he would be the guy that finds a way to that first place. He gets winning, in a nutshell.
On January 07 2013 14:21 triforks wrote: has he played life or parting recently?
Flash has never played Parting; but I feel it would be an awesome awesome match; given Flash's storm dodging skills, and Parting's incredibly strong PvT
Life has played Flash 6 times in the MLG Flash went up 2-0 And then Life demolished him in the next 4 to take the series.
let him play spl maps which he knows 100000000000% better than any non kespa player (bw maps in sc2 style ?) he got the edge over most players out there in my opinion
he could disable life on spl maps in a bo7 in my oppinion and al other esf players too
but drop him on gsl maps and u see what happens -.-
just look at the last spl result vs egtl
killed hero on antiga (tvp fav map) killed revival in very close game on onaha (definitly NOT a zerg map) killed taeja on a map in tvt without watch towers what is not common for sc2 players but resembles his style perfectly well and he outsmarted jyp (y i know stats dont show the skill in matchup for sure but somehow i m sure jyp is not known for his pvt 25% ?)
the moment he defeats a zerg on daybreak , a toss on onaha and stephano on antiga i probably stop arguing about this
right now his play in spl looked total frightening and dominating but in gsl he simply got crushed -.-
On January 07 2013 14:39 eqinf wrote: its probably all about maps
let him play spl maps which he knows 100000000000% better than any non kespa player (bw maps in sc2 style ?) he got the edge over most players out there in my opinion
he could disable life on spl maps in a bo7 in my oppinion and al other esf players too
but drop him on gsl maps and u see what happens -.-
just look at the last spl result vs egtl
killed hero on antiga (tvp fav map) killed revival in very close game on onaha (definitly NOT a zerg map) killed taeja on a map in tvt without watch towers what is not common for sc2 players but resembles his style perfectly well and he outsmarted jyp (y i know stats dont show the skill in matchup for sure but somehow i m sure jyp is not known for his pvt 25% ?)
the moment he defeats a zerg on daybreak , a toss on onaha and stephano on antiga i probably stop arguing about this
right now his play in spl looked total frightening and dominating but in gsl he simply got crushed -.-
He didn't "get crushed" in GSL. He went 3-2. MC, who advanced into code S, also went 3-2.
He is like mid code A level which is hardly an insult (top 64 players in the world). He hasn't played enough games to know how to deal with many of the crazy old allins that are rarely used anymore
If he was in any other group he would be in Code S right now.
I think he's about mid Code S level. Mechanically he's about even with a non-injured Mvp, but I think he lacks the familiarity that top tier Code S players have with the other races, and he definitely doesn't have Mvp's game sense. He's close, but not quite there yet.
If HotS wasn't coming out soon, I would say Flash would definitely be top 3 within another 6 months. After that, probably just straight up the best.
On January 07 2013 15:31 Lunareste wrote: If he was in any other group he would be in Code S right now.
I think he's about mid Code S level. Mechanically he's about even with a non-injured Mvp, but I think he lacks the familiarity that top tier Code S players have with the other races, and he definitely doesn't have Mvp's game sense. He's close, but not quite there yet.
If HotS wasn't coming out soon, I would say Flash would definitely be top 3 within another 6 months. After that, probably just straight up the best.
Mvp's mechanics are overrated imo, Flash has him covered there I believe! Mvp's game sense (like you stated), decision making, build order choices etc are all great, he has v.good micro, solid multitasking and good macro, at least in my worthless opinion.
atm he is code A level only imho, yes, he did beat taeja, but in the end of it all its just a bo1. i think he would stand a good chance to advance to code S if only next season wasnt the last season of code S, HoTS is gonna be a whole flip of top players imo
On January 07 2013 15:13 Landu Landu wrote: I think he is at least low Code S level, only reason he isn't actually in Code S is that he had the hardest Up&down group.
group C and D are way harder, group A was overrated imho because of jaedong and flash and MC
PL maps favor terran.(If you check the line-up, it is not loser to pick the next map, it has an order to play them which make ak more possible for Flash against EGTL) I dont know how the map order is decided but it indeed played a role in the match.
Also Gsl uses cloud kingdom, daybreak and whirlwind while PL doesn't use Daybreak or cloud kingdom. Plz cosider these factors.
On January 07 2013 15:13 Landu Landu wrote: I think he is at least low Code S level, only reason he isn't actually in Code S is that he had the hardest Up&down group.
group C and D are way harder, group A was overrated imho because of jaedong and flash and MC
and Yonghwa as well. It had the names and the hype. but yes there are a bunch of other groups that look as strong to me. Even group B would seriously test him, nothing is guaranteed!
I guess there is no exact definition of Code S level. It is changing from season to season. Many progamers in proleague is playing great. For someone it could be not Code S, for someone it is Code S level. In my opinion, there is no point to discuss it. Because there is no exact definition of Code S level. If progamer playes great somebody can say he is Code S level. However, everyone has bad days and can play as shitty in another day. At least we need more time, maybe several years to understand and make any rankings and decide who is the best.
On January 07 2013 12:23 Kettchup wrote: I've actually been most impressed by his micro and battle management. It's kind of the opposite of Jaedong right now, who has great overall strategies and then just screws it up in the end by sending his banelings in the wrong direction. Flash's weakness right now seems to be in the strategic department. Starting off with his CC first, or not putting down a bunker, and then paying for it.
what? Jaedong has insane macro, but his ingame decision making and micro is just bad.
On January 07 2013 16:07 krutopatkin wrote: If he was Code S level he would be in Code S I think.
Yes I agree. If the definition of Code S is everyone in Code S can be called as Code S level. So if player is not in Code S then this person is not Code S level. I surprised that so many people arguing about this.
I think after having Kespa players mingling with GOM players for months now, we can finally come to the conclusion theres no "BW players are automatically better than everyone" argument; theres just CERTAIN PLAYERS who are amazing at whatever game they play. Thats why you see the top guys like Flash, JD, Rain, herO, Fantasy, Baby, etc be able to switch within a year and play at a high level, then you see some of the lower A teamers who are losing terribly in games that make you go wtf.
It was obvious to anyone who wasn't biased at the first of it anyways; there's a reason Flash is the most dominant player in BW of all time, its the way he is as a person, regardless if he played CS or LoL or anything he would still be amazing, and hes going to be the most feared SC2 player in 2013. He is a special talent. Can't say the same for most of the other Kespa players outside of the top 10-15 or so. For them, GSL Code S players are still going to dominate them.
Right now its number of games; he is unfamiliar with situations at a top-level (stuff you don't see in ladder) and that'll come with time. Im sure he'll never forget a bunker after his fast CC now! Things like that, you have to learn the hard way. Once he learns those ins and outs of SC2, he'll be insane, as his gamesense, macro and micro are already top notch.
On January 07 2013 15:31 Lunareste wrote: If he was in any other group he would be in Code S right now.
I think he's about mid Code S level. Mechanically he's about even with a non-injured Mvp, but I think he lacks the familiarity that top tier Code S players have with the other races, and he definitely doesn't have Mvp's game sense. He's close, but not quite there yet.
If HotS wasn't coming out soon, I would say Flash would definitely be top 3 within another 6 months. After that, probably just straight up the best.
I think Flash's biggest problem is that he is predictable. That being said, when people let him macro super hard early game and allow him to play his game (what the first three members of EG-TL let him do), then he dominates. Other top Terrans--both KeSPA and GOM--have been more flexible. The most flexible player, I would say, is Mvp, and that is part of why he is so successful. If Flash broadens his strategy selection and becomes less predictable (honestly, even the cheese in the fourth game was a bit predictable) then he could become one of the best.
On January 07 2013 15:54 Fenrax wrote: Flash is upeer mid to high Code S level imo. Both his results and his gameplay are great and he got unlucky in U&D's twice.
So he loses twice and it is unlucky? He is obviously not upper level code S or he would be in Code S at least one of those times. He is lower end and thus still prone to falling out of it.
I wish all of you SC2 fans could simply embrace the fact that someone like Flash is actually playing the game you like. No matter if Code S, Code A, Code B, - Flash polarizes. And it's pretty much undoubtable that he's a great player that'll go his way.
If he is truly code S level then he shouldve gone 5-0 to all his opponents like LiquidHero did last season. Even so, Hero's run ended in ro32 by soulkey and curious.A true Code S level player doesnt fail twice in up and downs. Call me a sadist, but im extremely gladthat he didnt make it and dont have to see any more blind Flash fanboys going "oh my GOD he is making everyone look like a noob"
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but it's likely that Flash's priority, as a member of KT Rolster, a KeSPA team, is KeSPA's events (proleague and OSL) and NOT GOM's events. Is it a coincidence that he's performed, overall, much better away from GOM events? Probably not.
Is that his personal priority? Who knows. But he's an employee of a team, and I'm sure that KT wants him to perform better in the events that they are more invested in.
Looking at his up and down matches, he went out and did an all kill and then showed up for up and down...That's a lot of SC2. That's a lot of energy and concentration. But it's also a LOT of preparation, possibly too much. I think Flash has shown a very solid potential, but there are too many factors currently to define his ability and limits. Maybe when everyone is adjusting to HOTS, any remaining handicap of his joining the game late will disappear?
On January 07 2013 15:54 Fenrax wrote: Flash is upeer mid to high Code S level imo. Both his results and his gameplay are great and he got unlucky in U&D's twice.
So he loses twice and it is unlucky? He is obviously not upper level code S or he would be in Code S at least one of those times. He is lower end and thus still prone to falling out of it.
On January 07 2013 16:46 mongmong wrote: If he is truly code S level then he shouldve gone 5-0 to all his opponents like LiquidHero did last season. Even so, Hero's run ended in ro32 by soulkey and curious.A true Code S level player doesnt fail twice in up and downs. Call me a sadist, but im extremely gladthat he didnt make it and dont have to see any more blind Flash fanboys going "oh my GOD he is making everyone look like a noob"
The skill gap between Code A and Code S is so small that it is easy for ANYONE to fail in the Up and Downs.
On January 07 2013 16:46 mongmong wrote: If he is truly code S level then he shouldve gone 5-0 to all his opponents like LiquidHero did last season. Even so, Hero's run ended in ro32 by soulkey and curious.A true Code S level player doesnt fail twice in up and downs. Call me a sadist, but im extremely gladthat he didnt make it and dont have to see any more blind Flash fanboys going "oh my GOD he is making everyone look like a noob"
So if you don't 5-0 your U&D group you're not truly code S level? Really?
For limits, he's definitely top 100, definitely not top 20.
I'd put him around 50th, with a good chance of him becoming one of the best in the world by the end of the year, and probably challenging for the title within a couple months of HotS coming out.
Flash is the best player in the world. Whether results show it or not yet, he is the best player in the world. It will just take a bit before everyone realizes it. Winning championships doesn't happen over night, even the best players fall due to variance in the game. The results will come. He is the most talented player I've ever seen play any game. His dedication, training, intelligence, and skill is beyond any other player. He has the best work ethic of anyone I've ever seen. He is the best player in the world.
a) He is an exceptional player. If you saw him 4-0 EGTL the other day, you'd say he was one of the best in the world. b) He has a huge amount of expectations and potential given his incredible talent in brood war.
So he might be in the rare situation where he is mildly overrated despite legitimately being one of the best players in the world. But that is more a testament to how dominant his BW career was, not his current skill level. Flash is the real deal.
He's high code A, not top tier code A but up there.
He's very good, very solid player. He needs another month or two before he's a code S level player. We've seen a few code A level players go on sprees here and there, but at the end of the day he is just not quite code S yet. He will be in another month or so though easy.
Over-hyped is an understatement. Any pro-gamer in korea can beat another in a bo1 which is what mostly proleague is; yet he can't win in the U&D? I wouldn't be surprised to see him fall out of code A this season.
Flash when he learns looks different from game to game. Just remember how Flash looked back when he was figuring his own "meta" in BW, meta that destroyed the world.
This is like Genki Dama, he is now cumulating it, while now its nothing special but when he finishes it...
On January 07 2013 17:37 ThePhan2m wrote: Up / Down system is pretty lame. They should change the system there to a Winners / Losers format.
Code A IS that format already. U&D is more a second chance type deal. And the reason there are groups of 6 is to try to avoid 'bad' draws like you can in Code A format.
I'd say he's Code S material, but he's not top Code S. He was unlucky to get that group, but him losing was still a little bad of him. He deserves to stay in Code A for now, but he can break through at any moment. We can expect a lot from him! If he doesn't follow through, it will be a big disappointment, so that's the burden he carries.
On January 07 2013 15:54 Fenrax wrote: Flash is upeer mid to high Code S level imo. Both his results and his gameplay are great and he got unlucky in U&D's twice.
So he loses twice and it is unlucky? He is obviously not upper level code S or he would be in Code S at least one of those times. He is lower end and thus still prone to falling out of it.
SC2 is still a high variance game.
best of the best still remain in code S like Mvp. its just the low code S - high code A players that generally are stuck in the limbo
He's among the top in Code A at the moment. Sometimes he'll show Code S-level flashes of brilliance, then on others he just dies due to being too greedy.
He seems to be really good with MLG-style and all-kill type of tournaments due to his endurance though.
On January 07 2013 17:43 Shinta) wrote: I'd say he's Code S material, but he's not top Code S. He was unlucky to get that group, but him losing was still a little bad of him. He deserves to stay in Code A for now, but he can break through at any moment. We can expect a lot from him! If he doesn't follow through, it will be a big disappointment, so that's the burden he carries.
There's no lucky groups in Up/Downs but he definitely didn't get unlucky with his group. Look at group C, that would've been unlucky.
I agree on the rank though, he's somewhere between Code A and Code S. A little too inconsistent maybe. Goes from all killing EGTL and looking amazing throughout to getting bopped by 2 stalkers from MC.
Here is some comparision between Flash and MC from Yesterday: MC won against: Jaedong, Flash, YongHwa MC lost against: YoDa, Vampire
Flash won against: Revival, HerO, TaeJa, JYP, Vampire, YongHwa, YoDa Flash lost against: Jaedong, MC
So MC is Code S material and Flash is not?
IMHO Flash is at least mid-Code S level. It just happened that Yoda, MC and JD are also on mid-Code S level and they all got into same group. And as I said earlier, Flash is the only player that has to play NINE games yesterday.
EDIT: Also You can't really say that Flash performed much worse than MC and JD, as they all were on 3:2 record, but tie-breaker was against Flash this time.
On January 07 2013 14:15 MysteryMeat1 wrote: IDK i think Flash is borderline CODE S but honestly within a couple of months will be making ro16 appereances in GSL code S.
his tvp is sooo good.
EDIT: Also he looked a little flimsy vs Revival who isn't the greatest zerg player.
Revivals better then you think .
I was really impressed by his play so far, definitely a great addition to the proleague roster! As for flash i give him 5 more months, then he should have the skills to judge if he wants to show mercy or not..
On January 07 2013 17:43 Shinta) wrote: I'd say he's Code S material, but he's not top Code S. He was unlucky to get that group, but him losing was still a little bad of him. He deserves to stay in Code A for now, but he can break through at any moment. We can expect a lot from him! If he doesn't follow through, it will be a big disappointment, so that's the burden he carries.
There's no lucky groups in Up/Downs but he definitely didn't get unlucky with his group. Look at group C, that would've been unlucky.
I agree on the rank though, he's somewhere between Code A and Code S. A little too inconsistent maybe. Goes from all killing EGTL and looking amazing throughout to getting bopped by 2 stalkers from MC.
Look at group D, that would have been lucky. Although I'm obviously happy that Fantasy got that group instead.
As for Flash, it's pretty harsh to judge a player who had to play in two competitions that stretched for hours. It was pretty much like Taeja vs IM for him yesterday, if not harder.
On January 07 2013 17:59 Ch3rry wrote: Here is some comparision between Flash and MC from Yesterday: MC won against: Jaedong, Flash, YongHwa MC lost against: YoDa, Vampire
Flash won against: Revival, HerO, TaeJa, JYP, Vampire, YongHwa, YoDa Flash lost against: Jaedong, MC
So MC is Code S material and Flash is not?
IMHO Flash is at least mid-Code S level. It just happened that Yoda, MC and JD are also on mid-Code S level and they all got into same group. And as I said earlier, Flash is the only player that has to play NINE games yesterday.
EDIT: Also You can't really say that Flash performed much worse than MC and JD, as they all were on 3:2 record, but tie-breaker was against Flash this time.
So MC, Jaedong, Yoda and Flash are all Mid-Code S level, i see.
On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days.
There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o
I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all.
Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all.
There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion.
You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S.
So you think the qualification system should be better and more indepth...or what?
The ones who win their games are the ones who get into Code S, how are they not the best?
So each GSL winner is automatically the best player on earth? More than a few champions and tons of runner ups have fallen off, some rather quickly and others over time. No I don't think the GSL system needs to be more in depth. Obviously getting to Code S is a major accomplishment, I'm not trying to downplay that fact. I think BaBy was one of the worse opponents for him to face and given a different draw he could have made it to Code S. If each season's Code S solidly defined the top players then threads like this wouldn't exist, no?
I have no idea what this has to do with what you said originally, but to answer your question, winning GSL means you are the best player in that season. Since the GSL is the hardest league it makes you the best player until the next season.
Sure, Flash could win games in code s and go far potentially, why not. I just don't understand why you said GSL doesn't show the best players, because the best player ( Life ) is in Code S, and winning GSL twice made him the best player.
From the limited games I've seen of Flash, his macro can look almost unparalleled. Let me clarify, Flash as of this instant might not be a top25 player in the world. BUT I think his mechanics easily give him of the strongest foundations of any SC2 player out there. My top 5 for Terran would probably look something like Flash, Fantasy, BaBy, Bogus, Taeja. Sorry to the eSF Terrans but I really think they will be surpassed once these guys fully flesh out their game knowledge and star2 sense.
Difficult to say at this point in time imo. He shows glimpses of brilliance in games he wins, but in the games he loses he shows his frailties.
He was quite good vs EGTL the other night, but in first game he should not of won it imo, Revival lost it rather than Flash winning it. However, that was probably down to Flash being absolutely everywhere on the map and causing Revival to be dragged all over the place whilst Flash just macro'd his army back up to max. He did a similar thing vs Hero where he might of lost but he didn't due to his insane macro and his ability to be everywhere.
He shows some frailties in TvT too, but he was pretty good overall vs Taeja. He stood up to the pressure of what Taeja was throwing at him and he with stood that and then flipped the roles pretty quickly and effortlessly.
In BO1 at the Up/Downs he did not fair to well either, but he did beat Yoda in TvT to inflict his first defeat.
Overall: He has the potential to be better than MVP was in WOL in HOTS, but he came in to late to WOL to have any major effect in it. HOTS is where he is going to need to be on it from the get go, so i do hope he is playing the beta and the KESPA training isn't focused all on WOL or they will be again behind.
I don't really think much for the macro of someone who goes CC first in almost every game, not that there is anything particularly wrong with that from a players perspective, it is the fault of his opponents for not punishing him like MC did, but OF COURSE he is going to get ahead of his opponents in macro if he goes CC first against Gate-Core nexus...
People don't seems to be talking about this facet enough :/
On January 07 2013 18:22 Grend wrote: not too long until code s becomes a bad metric imo
What will replace it? Still has the best players and the best format. I personally don't think the BO1 teamleagues on imbalanced strange maps should be given much weight if that's where you're headed.
On January 07 2013 18:22 Grend wrote: not too long until code s becomes a bad metric imo
What will replace it? Still has the best players and the best format. I personally don't think the BO1 teamleagues on imbalanced strange maps should be given much weight if that's where you're headed.
Cannot quote this enough. Flash did play amazingly vs EGTL, especially the game vs HerO impressed me but as you said, it's a Bo1.
Is he overhyped/overrated? Yes. Of course. He's a KeSPA pro who was one of the best BW players ever. He was being overhyped before he even started playing SC2 (see that old elephant article, absolutely ridiculous looking back on it).
Is he really just an average Code A calibre player, overhyped by previous accomplishments? I'd place him as a U&D staple at the moment, with a possibility to maybe sneak into a Code S RO32. He's good enough to get through the average Code A knockout player, and good enough to take the odd game off Code S level competition, but not good enough to consistently win enough. He's probably good enough to perhaps win another tournament like KeSPA's proleague or MLG or something, but this is GSL Code S we're talking about. It is the premier SC2 competition and it doesn't get any harder.
Is he a projected player to become top-tier amongst the current SC2 crop of players? Probably, yes. Based on what I've heard of him he has an amazing work ethic and if you look at his play you can see the raw talent to be a very good player is there. He just needs time and practice.
Flash has the mentality to play the best he can at every game he plays. And his winrate in official matches is amazing. I'd say on a good day Flash can beat almost anyone. Also seems like GSL is the "less important" league for the Kespa guys. Dunno why tho.
So macro, i think hes high code S. His fault here is that hes a little too greedy/overconfident IMO. he lost to MC because he didn't make a bunker at the natural, and lost to JD because he didn't use units/scans to better find out that his opponent was doing. my personal opinion of course.
On January 07 2013 16:46 mongmong wrote: If he is truly code S level then he shouldve gone 5-0 to all his opponents like LiquidHero did last season. Even so, Hero's run ended in ro32 by soulkey and curious.A true Code S level player doesnt fail twice in up and downs. Call me a sadist, but im extremely gladthat he didnt make it and dont have to see any more blind Flash fanboys going "oh my GOD he is making everyone look like a noob"
So if you don't 5-0 your U&D group you're not truly code S level? Really?
Not really implying he isnt Code S, but he's blown his opportunity TWICE. If Flash really wanted to prove that he is code S level player he should have, but couldnt. Why lose to MC by being ridiculously greedy when he already knows that MC is super aggressive? Flash fanboys need to wait until HOTS comes out because this season's GSL is the last they play on WOL.
On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days.
There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o
I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all.
Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all.
There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion.
You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S.
So you think the qualification system should be better and more indepth...or what?
The ones who win their games are the ones who get into Code S, how are they not the best?
So each GSL winner is automatically the best player on earth? More than a few champions and tons of runner ups have fallen off, some rather quickly and others over time. No I don't think the GSL system needs to be more in depth. Obviously getting to Code S is a major accomplishment, I'm not trying to downplay that fact. I think BaBy was one of the worse opponents for him to face and given a different draw he could have made it to Code S. If each season's Code S solidly defined the top players then threads like this wouldn't exist, no?
I have no idea what this has to do with what you said originally, but to answer your question, winning GSL means you are the best player in that season. Since the GSL is the hardest league it makes you the best player until the next season.
Sure, Flash could win games in code s and go far potentially, why not. I just don't understand why you said GSL doesn't show the best players, because the best player ( Life ) is in Code S, and winning GSL twice made him the best player.
From the limited games I've seen of Flash, his macro can look almost unparalleled. Let me clarify, Flash as of this instant might not be a top25 player in the world. BUT I think his mechanics easily give him of the strongest foundations of any SC2 player out there. My top 5 for Terran would probably look something like Flash, Fantasy, BaBy, Bogus, Taeja. Sorry to the eSF Terrans but I really think they will be surpassed once these guys fully flesh out their game knowledge and star2 sense.
Once Cyborg Mvp's wrist and neck parts are replaced, he'll still probably be better than Flash, Bogus, Baby and Taeja.
I'm actually more impressed with Fantasy, who seems to be improving at a much steadier rate than Flash, and has constantly been beating him whenever they're matched up as of late.
Flash said to wait a year until he gets used to the whole SCII interface and such though, so once his analysis is complete, that's probably the moment when we should do this type of thread.
On January 07 2013 18:22 Grend wrote: not too long until code s becomes a bad metric imo
What will replace it? Still has the best players and the best format. I personally don't think the BO1 teamleagues on imbalanced strange maps should be given much weight if that's where you're headed.
Cannot quote this enough. Flash did play amazingly vs EGTL, especially the game vs HerO impressed me but as you said, it's a Bo1.
GSL is the hardest championship for a reason.
Proleague isn't BO1, it's technically BO7.
GSL is the hardest championship, and yet it has been won by such illustrious talents as jjakji, Seed and Sniper. Unless your name is mvp, there's a lot of luck and randomness in the results and they're not always a measure of talent and skill. Creator couldn't make it to Code S for a year during his prime, neither could Bomber, and Yonghwa still can't. Parting only made it to RO4 once iirc.
On January 07 2013 18:22 Grend wrote: not too long until code s becomes a bad metric imo
What will replace it? Still has the best players and the best format. I personally don't think the BO1 teamleagues on imbalanced strange maps should be given much weight if that's where you're headed.
Cannot quote this enough. Flash did play amazingly vs EGTL, especially the game vs HerO impressed me but as you said, it's a Bo1.
GSL is the hardest championship for a reason.
Proleague isn't BO1, it's technically BO7.
GSL is the hardest championship, and yet it has been won by such illustrious talents as jjakji, Seed and Sniper. Unless your name is mvp, there's a lot of luck and randomness in the results and they're not always a measure of talent and skill. Creator couldn't make it to Code S for a year during his prime, neither could Bomber, and Yonghwa still can't. Parting only made it to RO4 once iirc.
That's right, I'm not denying that winning GSL is the most difficult feat, however, there is such an amazing lack of statistical consistency (apart from one player) that it makes it a doubtful metric.
What I'm saying is that it's easy to say how good a player is "now", but very hard to predict how good he will be. SC2 rankings so far has been nothing short of a rollercoaster ride.
On January 07 2013 18:22 Grend wrote: not too long until code s becomes a bad metric imo
What will replace it? Still has the best players and the best format. I personally don't think the BO1 teamleagues on imbalanced strange maps should be given much weight if that's where you're headed.
Cannot quote this enough. Flash did play amazingly vs EGTL, especially the game vs HerO impressed me but as you said, it's a Bo1.
GSL is the hardest championship for a reason.
Proleague isn't BO1, it's technically BO7.
GSL is the hardest championship, and yet it has been won by such illustrious talents as jjakji, Seed and Sniper. Unless your name is mvp, there's a lot of luck and randomness in the results and they're not always a measure of talent and skill. Creator couldn't make it to Code S for a year during his prime, neither could Bomber, and Yonghwa still can't. Parting only made it to RO4 once iirc.
That's right, I'm not denying that winning GSL is the most difficult feat, however, there is such an amazing lack of statistical consistency (apart from one player) that it makes it a doubtful metric.
What I'm saying is that it's easy to say how good a player is "now", but very hard to predict how good he will be. SC2 rankings so far has been nothing short of a rollercoaster ride.
Eh MVP/Nestea were very consistent for a year. Even in BW there weren't many players who were consistent for longer then a year. Flash/Jaedong were one of the few who could do consistently well for multiple years.
On January 07 2013 18:22 Grend wrote: not too long until code s becomes a bad metric imo
What will replace it? Still has the best players and the best format. I personally don't think the BO1 teamleagues on imbalanced strange maps should be given much weight if that's where you're headed.
Cannot quote this enough. Flash did play amazingly vs EGTL, especially the game vs HerO impressed me but as you said, it's a Bo1.
GSL is the hardest championship for a reason.
Proleague isn't BO1, it's technically BO7.
GSL is the hardest championship, and yet it has been won by such illustrious talents as jjakji, Seed and Sniper. Unless your name is mvp, there's a lot of luck and randomness in the results and they're not always a measure of talent and skill. Creator couldn't make it to Code S for a year during his prime, neither could Bomber, and Yonghwa still can't. Parting only made it to RO4 once iirc.
I kind of agree with that overall but not about the luck and randomness part. What makes Code S so hard in my eyes is that all of those players are insanely good and everybody can pretty much beat anybody, depending on their performance. That does make some results seem random but they're really not. You have to be at the very top of your game every single time you play in Code S or it will punish you. There's a reason why players like Creator, Bomber and Yonghwa were/are not Code S regulars and it's their consistency. Even Parting wasn't consistently as good as he is right now.
So, coming back to Flash, he's one of those players with extreme potential but right now I I think he's one of those who's just a little too inconsistent as of right now. No doubt in my mind that he'll get there though.
Flash is code s level guys. Its not like Flash is the only code s level player in code a anyway, YongHwa had a bad day, and Rain isn't even in code a, but hes pretty good right?
From what I've seen yesterday, he's code S level or really close to it. His TvP is monstruous (when he isn't unnecessarily greedy), and his TvT was so-so a couple weeks back and has apparently become sick good as well.
The only matchup I'm more skeptical about is his TvZ.
On January 07 2013 19:13 DarkLordOlli wrote: I kind of agree with that overall but not about the luck and randomness part. What makes Code S so hard in my eyes is that all of those players are insanely good and everybody can pretty much beat anybody, depending on their performance. That does make some results seem random but they're really not. You have to be at the very top of your game every single time you play in Code S or it will punish you. There's a reason why players like Creator, Bomber and Yonghwa were/are not Code S regulars and it's their consistency. Even Parting wasn't consistently as good as he is right now.
Seed, Sniper and jjakji were nowhere near consistent either, and yet they still won it. They weren't at the top of their game every single time, and even if some were, their runs were littered with mad luck in more than one game along the way.
There's no specific reason why Creator, Bomber and Parting didn't do it instead (and had difficulties even qualifying). There's certainly nothing in their play that was more lacking than the 3 players above, they didn't have more flaws in their play than those winners had, and they all had them.
It just didn't turn out that way, that's the only reason.
On January 07 2013 17:29 Sc2Null wrote: Over-hyped is an understatement. Any pro-gamer in korea can beat another in a bo1 which is what mostly proleague is; yet he can't win in the U&D? I wouldn't be surprised to see him fall out of code A this season.
"Anyone can beat anyone in a Bo1" "He lost two games in a format that's Bo1? I can see him falling out of code A this season"
On January 07 2013 09:28 dbg wrote: hes the best terran player in the world
thats why he lost in up and down with place 4 and code A now jaeh sure
nono he is REALLY good you saw vs egtl but you still lacks in alot of confidence so i think he needs more month atm he is someone who can be code s but not nessaccary must be in it
he is a really good code a player. i can't imagine the weight on his shoulders because of the expectations. it must be really stressfull, but he is improving really fast. i think coming out of nowhere and winning against everyone like Life did is easier. if you are a famous player like Flash, everyone will want to win against you even more.
On January 07 2013 19:13 DarkLordOlli wrote: I kind of agree with that overall but not about the luck and randomness part. What makes Code S so hard in my eyes is that all of those players are insanely good and everybody can pretty much beat anybody, depending on their performance. That does make some results seem random but they're really not. You have to be at the very top of your game every single time you play in Code S or it will punish you. There's a reason why players like Creator, Bomber and Yonghwa were/are not Code S regulars and it's their consistency. Even Parting wasn't consistently as good as he is right now.
Seed, Sniper and jjakji were nowhere near consistent either, and yet they still won it. They weren't at the top of their game every single time, and even if some were, their runs were littered with mad luck in more than one game along the way.
There's no specific reason why Creator, Bomber and Parting didn't do it instead (and had difficulties even qualifying). There's certainly nothing in their play that was more lacking than the 3 players above, they didn't have more flaws in their play than those winners had, and they all had them.
It just didn't turn out that way, that's the only reason.
Actually, Seed, Jjakji and Sniper were extremely consistent during their run through GSL. None of them had any luck in draws, their wins were legit because they were sick good at the time. Bomber, Yonghwa are notorious for being inconsistent. Hell, most TL users associate Bomber with a) sick macro and b) owning everybody until he gets to Code S, only to play nowhere near his potential, get bombed out and do the same thing again. Almost the same for Yonghwa and Code A. Parting got killed 3-0 by DRG, got too cocky vs an in form Mvp and other than that just wasn't consistent enough. On the other hand you have multiple-time GSL champions like MC, Mvp and Nestea who were extremely consistent during that time, hence their titles. GSL is all about consistency, even if it's just for a single season. Some players have shown that being super consistent for one season is enough to take a GSl championship.
On January 07 2013 16:46 mongmong wrote: If he is truly code S level then he shouldve gone 5-0 to all his opponents like LiquidHero did last season. Even so, Hero's run ended in ro32 by soulkey and curious.A true Code S level player doesnt fail twice in up and downs. Call me a sadist, but im extremely gladthat he didnt make it and dont have to see any more blind Flash fanboys going "oh my GOD he is making everyone look like a noob"
So if you don't 5-0 your U&D group you're not truly code S level? Really?
Not really implying he isnt Code S, but he's blown his opportunity TWICE. If Flash really wanted to prove that he is code S level player he should have, but couldnt. Why lose to MC by being ridiculously greedy when he already knows that MC is super aggressive? Flash fanboys need to wait until HOTS comes out because this season's GSL is the last they play on WOL.
What do you mean you aren't implying it? You literally just said that if he were truly code S level he would have gone 5-0. That's not implying he isn't; it's just saying he isn't. Making one oversight in one game which prevents you from getting into code S doesn't mean that you aren't at that level. That's just silly.
Starcraft 2 people judging Flash... step out of his way. Flash wasn't god when he touched Starcraft Broodwar to begin with, he worked his way there. Just watch him progress.
On January 07 2013 18:22 Surili wrote: I don't really think much for the macro of someone who goes CC first in almost every game, not that there is anything particularly wrong with that from a players perspective, it is the fault of his opponents for not punishing him like MC did, but OF COURSE he is going to get ahead of his opponents in macro if he goes CC first against Gate-Core nexus...
People don't seems to be talking about this facet enough :/
It's not like going 14CC has a cumulative effect which makes you build stuff faster from game to game. Having good macro is not having a good economy and therefore being able to build more stuff. Other terrans go 14CC as well. Their macro just isn't as good.
On January 07 2013 11:16 SupLilSon wrote: I'd say he's easily a top5 Korean Terran but dunno if that really qualifies you for Code S these days.
There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o
I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all.
Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all.
There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion.
You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S.
So you think the qualification system should be better and more indepth...or what?
The ones who win their games are the ones who get into Code S, how are they not the best?
So each GSL winner is automatically the best player on earth? More than a few champions and tons of runner ups have fallen off, some rather quickly and others over time. No I don't think the GSL system needs to be more in depth. Obviously getting to Code S is a major accomplishment, I'm not trying to downplay that fact. I think BaBy was one of the worse opponents for him to face and given a different draw he could have made it to Code S. If each season's Code S solidly defined the top players then threads like this wouldn't exist, no?
I have no idea what this has to do with what you said originally, but to answer your question, winning GSL means you are the best player in that season. Since the GSL is the hardest league it makes you the best player until the next season.
Sure, Flash could win games in code s and go far potentially, why not. I just don't understand why you said GSL doesn't show the best players, because the best player ( Life ) is in Code S, and winning GSL twice made him the best player.
From the limited games I've seen of Flash, his macro can look almost unparalleled. Let me clarify, Flash as of this instant might not be a top25 player in the world. BUT I think his mechanics easily give him of the strongest foundations of any SC2 player out there. My top 5 for Terran would probably look something like Flash, Fantasy, BaBy, Bogus, Taeja. Sorry to the eSF Terrans but I really think they will be surpassed once these guys fully flesh out their game knowledge and star2 sense.
Once Cyborg Mvp's wrist and neck parts are replaced, he'll still probably be better than Flash, Bogus, Baby and Taeja.
I'm actually more impressed with Fantasy, who seems to be improving at a much steadier rate than Flash, and has constantly been beating him whenever they're matched up as of late.
Flash said to wait a year until he gets used to the whole SCII interface and such though, so once his analysis is complete, that's probably the moment when we should do this type of thread.
lol...Mvp's looked so good in the past simply because he didn't play Kespa level caliber players. Keep in mind, MVP had a 39% win ratio in Brood War. With that said, although this is a different game once the Kespa players play longer they will surpass MVP. Keep in mind, they've only been playing SC2 "full time" since September. Prior to September they practiced both BW and SC2. Practicing one game part time is not the same as practicing it full time and MVP's played since 2010. Sure the game has evolved since then but once HotS is released and the Kespa players experience more situations and find a counter to everything then it will end up like Brood War again.
On January 07 2013 19:40 Ch3rry wrote: Well, Flash is definitelly Code-S level.
MC also has 3:2 in this group and goes directly to Code S
Flash has 3:2 record, and some people in here are saying nonsense like he is gonna to drop down from Code A! Are you frickin' serious?!
Look at Flashes losses closer in the up/downs. The only map he dropped was Cloud Kingdom (both to JD and MC). Also, look at his history on Cloud Kingdom, it's terrible. I personally don't think he hasn't found a way to play the map yet. He won all of the big maps.
Put any top tier code S player against Flash on a big map and I am sure he'd win. Put any top tier code S player on a small map and I am sure they'd have a high chance of winning. Flash just needs to figure out a way to play smaller maps and he'll be good to go. But, I am sure after this season all of the small maps will be removed and leave only the bigger ones.
On January 07 2013 17:43 Shinta) wrote: I'd say he's Code S material, but he's not top Code S. He was unlucky to get that group, but him losing was still a little bad of him. He deserves to stay in Code A for now, but he can break through at any moment. We can expect a lot from him! If he doesn't follow through, it will be a big disappointment, so that's the burden he carries.
There's no lucky groups in Up/Downs but he definitely didn't get unlucky with his group. Look at group C, that would've been unlucky.
I agree on the rank though, he's somewhere between Code A and Code S. A little too inconsistent maybe. Goes from all killing EGTL and looking amazing throughout to getting bopped by 2 stalkers from MC.
On January 07 2013 19:40 Ch3rry wrote: Well, Flash is definitelly Code-S level.
MC also has 3:2 in this group and goes directly to Code S
Flash has 3:2 record, and some people in here are saying nonsense like he is gonna to drop down from Code A! Are you frickin' serious?!
Look at Flashes losses closer in the up/downs. The only map he dropped was Cloud Kingdom (both to JD and MC). Also, look at his history on Cloud Kingdom, it's terrible. I personally don't think he hasn't found a way to play the map yet. He won all of the big maps.
Put any top tier code S player against Flash on a big map and I am sure he'd win. Put any top tier code S player on a small map and I am sure they'd have a high chance of winning. Flash just needs to figure out a way to play smaller maps and he'll be good to go. But, I am sure after this season all of the small maps will be removed and leave only the bigger ones.
To add to that, Cloud Kingdom isn't part of the Proleague mappool, so he probably didn't prepare for it.
Taeja stomped Mvp, Taeja is considered best Terran of 2012. And Flash made him (Taeja) look a tier below him. He out-macroed, out-microed, out strategized Taeja, how many Terrans have done that recently ? None except Flash.
I friggin hate Terran , but I can respect the amazing skills Flash shows.
Think about it, in about 6 months he has transitioned from being Top Tier KOREAN Brood War player to beating Top Tier KOREAN SC2 players like Taeja. 7-2 yesterday is not bad its actually very good. He lost to small mistakes that can easily be fixed, and the way he nearly came back against MC , was plain scary.
On January 07 2013 19:40 Ch3rry wrote: Well, Flash is definitelly Code-S level.
MC also has 3:2 in this group and goes directly to Code S
Flash has 3:2 record, and some people in here are saying nonsense like he is gonna to drop down from Code A! Are you frickin' serious?!
Look at Flashes losses closer in the up/downs. The only map he dropped was Cloud Kingdom (both to JD and MC). Also, look at his history on Cloud Kingdom, it's terrible. I personally don't think he hasn't found a way to play the map yet. He won all of the big maps.
Put any top tier code S player against Flash on a big map and I am sure he'd win. Put any top tier code S player on a small map and I am sure they'd have a high chance of winning. Flash just needs to figure out a way to play smaller maps and he'll be good to go. But, I am sure after this season all of the small maps will be removed and leave only the bigger ones.
To add to that, Cloud Kingdom isn't part of the Proleague mappool, so he probably didn't prepare for it.
So why do I see Fanta vs Dear and JangBi vs SoulKey on cloud kingdom? xd.
On January 07 2013 19:40 Ch3rry wrote: Well, Flash is definitelly Code-S level.
MC also has 3:2 in this group and goes directly to Code S
Flash has 3:2 record, and some people in here are saying nonsense like he is gonna to drop down from Code A! Are you frickin' serious?!
Look at Flashes losses closer in the up/downs. The only map he dropped was Cloud Kingdom (both to JD and MC). Also, look at his history on Cloud Kingdom, it's terrible. I personally don't think he hasn't found a way to play the map yet. He won all of the big maps.
Put any top tier code S player against Flash on a big map and I am sure he'd win. Put any top tier code S player on a small map and I am sure they'd have a high chance of winning. Flash just needs to figure out a way to play smaller maps and he'll be good to go. But, I am sure after this season all of the small maps will be removed and leave only the bigger ones.
To add to that, Cloud Kingdom isn't part of the Proleague mappool, so he probably didn't prepare for it.
So why do I see Fanta vs Dear and JangBi vs SoulKey on cloud kingdom? xd.
It seems I have embarrassed myself. Disregard what I just said.
Low Code S for sure. Flash could have easily made up and downs into Code S but the mistakes he makes are what separates him from the Life, Sniper, Taeja, or even Parting's of Code S.
He still plays like a generic Terran most of the time, meaning he's probably still learning. Soon he'll easily be a shoo-in for Code S or even Ro4. If he doesn't make Code S next season I'd consider that a dissappointment
Best terran in the world when he doesn't forget his bunker after a CC first The way he stomps Zergs and Protoss amaze me. When he wins he wins so convincingly !
On January 07 2013 20:27 Parcelleus wrote: Hmm lets see.
Taeja stomped Mvp, Taeja is considered best Terran of 2012. And Flash made him (Taeja) look a tier below him. He out-macroed, out-microed, out strategized Taeja, how many Terrans have done that recently ? None except Flash.
I friggin hate Terran , but I can respect the amazing skills Flash shows.
Think about it, in about 6 months he has transitioned from being Top Tier KOREAN Brood War player to beating Top Tier KOREAN SC2 players like Taeja. 7-2 yesterday is not bad its actually very good. He lost to small mistakes that can easily be fixed, and the way he nearly came back against MC , was plain scary.
He is easily Code S, already.
Just a note though, just because Flash can beat Taeja TvT that doesn't mean Flash could beat the same caliber of people Taeja can in TvZ and TvP. Therefore it doesn't mean that Flash is straight up better than Taeja. It just means that Flash's current style of TvT play is amazing and can wipe the floor with Taeja i.e. he just has his number. Just like Life has Taeja's number. Just like 2012 Polt had MMA's number. Just like 2012 MMA did VERY well against MVP's style.
On January 07 2013 20:27 Parcelleus wrote: Hmm lets see.
Taeja stomped Mvp, Taeja is considered best Terran of 2012. And Flash made him (Taeja) look a tier below him. He out-macroed, out-microed, out strategized Taeja, how many Terrans have done that recently ? None except Flash.
I friggin hate Terran , but I can respect the amazing skills Flash shows.
Think about it, in about 6 months he has transitioned from being Top Tier KOREAN Brood War player to beating Top Tier KOREAN SC2 players like Taeja. 7-2 yesterday is not bad its actually very good. He lost to small mistakes that can easily be fixed, and the way he nearly came back against MC , was plain scary.
He is easily Code S, already.
Just a note though, just because Flash can beat Taeja TvT that doesn't mean Flash could beat the same caliber of people Taeja can in TvZ and TvP. Therefore it doesn't mean that Flash is straight up better than Taeja. It just means that Flash's current style of TvT play is amazing and can wipe the floor with Taeja i.e. he just has his number. Just like Life has Taeja's number. Just like 2012 Polt had MMA's number. Just like 2012 MMA did VERY well against MVP's style.
I miss that Terran trifecta of checks and balances.
I think that since BW and SC2 are different games, it's already very impressive to become a top player in the game you switch to. He had to learn an entire game from scratch in less than a year and can already compete with people that have been playing twice as much as he has.
CJhero and WJsos were nothing in BW, now they're aces for their teams. Everything changes for SC2, so I'm still impressed by Flash' progress. I think he'll do even better once the game slightly resets in HotS.
I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
There are 10 other Terrans in Code S, how does that make any sense ;o
I don't think Code S necessarily represents the strongest players anymore is all.
Why do you think that? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. If Flash had simply defeated Baby in Code A instead of losing he would already be Code S without having to deal with up/downs at all.
There are a lot more good players nowadays, but the best rise to the top and It's always been that way. Yes there are Code S level players outside Code S, because there are so many more players nowadays, but the best of the best are still there consistently. Mvp is getting an award for being in Code S for 10 seasons in a row, despite that sc2 is more random than BW It's still not THAT random if you're truly the best. See Life, Been in GSL for 3 seasons, already a two time champion.
You kinda answered your own question I think. IMO Flash is one of those players who could consistently perform in Code S. BaBy is one of the Terrans I'd rank in top 5 so I don't think Flash losing to him in a Bo3 proves him unworthy of Code S.
So you think the qualification system should be better and more indepth...or what?
The ones who win their games are the ones who get into Code S, how are they not the best?
So each GSL winner is automatically the best player on earth? More than a few champions and tons of runner ups have fallen off, some rather quickly and others over time. No I don't think the GSL system needs to be more in depth. Obviously getting to Code S is a major accomplishment, I'm not trying to downplay that fact. I think BaBy was one of the worse opponents for him to face and given a different draw he could have made it to Code S. If each season's Code S solidly defined the top players then threads like this wouldn't exist, no?
I have no idea what this has to do with what you said originally, but to answer your question, winning GSL means you are the best player in that season. Since the GSL is the hardest league it makes you the best player until the next season.
Sure, Flash could win games in code s and go far potentially, why not. I just don't understand why you said GSL doesn't show the best players, because the best player ( Life ) is in Code S, and winning GSL twice made him the best player.
From the limited games I've seen of Flash, his macro can look almost unparalleled. Let me clarify, Flash as of this instant might not be a top25 player in the world. BUT I think his mechanics easily give him of the strongest foundations of any SC2 player out there. My top 5 for Terran would probably look something like Flash, Fantasy, BaBy, Bogus, Taeja. Sorry to the eSF Terrans but I really think they will be surpassed once these guys fully flesh out their game knowledge and star2 sense.
Once Cyborg Mvp's wrist and neck parts are replaced, he'll still probably be better than Flash, Bogus, Baby and Taeja.
I'm actually more impressed with Fantasy, who seems to be improving at a much steadier rate than Flash, and has constantly been beating him whenever they're matched up as of late.
Flash said to wait a year until he gets used to the whole SCII interface and such though, so once his analysis is complete, that's probably the moment when we should do this type of thread.
lol...Mvp's looked so good in the past simply because he didn't play Kespa level caliber players. Keep in mind, MVP had a 39% win ratio in Brood War. With that said, although this is a different game once the Kespa players play longer they will surpass MVP. Keep in mind, they've only been playing SC2 "full time" since September. Prior to September they practiced both BW and SC2. Practicing one game part time is not the same as practicing it full time and MVP's played since 2010. Sure the game has evolved since then but once HotS is released and the Kespa players experience more situations and find a counter to everything then it will end up like Brood War again.
We aren't talking about Broodwar here. And even with wrist and neck pains (to the point where he couldn't even put pressure on his palm and wrists) he still managed to take a GSL title last year and win a lot of games. That's him injured. Imagine if he wasn't.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
On January 07 2013 19:40 Ch3rry wrote: Well, Flash is definitelly Code-S level.
MC also has 3:2 in this group and goes directly to Code S
Flash has 3:2 record, and some people in here are saying nonsense like he is gonna to drop down from Code A! Are you frickin' serious?!
Look at Flashes losses closer in the up/downs. The only map he dropped was Cloud Kingdom (both to JD and MC). Also, look at his history on Cloud Kingdom, it's terrible. I personally don't think he hasn't found a way to play the map yet. He won all of the big maps.
Put any top tier code S player against Flash on a big map and I am sure he'd win. Put any top tier code S player on a small map and I am sure they'd have a high chance of winning. Flash just needs to figure out a way to play smaller maps and he'll be good to go. But, I am sure after this season all of the small maps will be removed and leave only the bigger ones.
To add to that, Cloud Kingdom isn't part of the Proleague mappool, so he probably didn't prepare for it.
So why do I see Fanta vs Dear and JangBi vs SoulKey on cloud kingdom? xd.
It seems I have embarrassed myself. Disregard what I just said.
You have in no way embarrassed yourself, Flash didn't play Cloud Kingdom in his all-kill, obviously not needing to prepare to play it.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
LOL Hero could chose the map he was going to play on and he had a week to prepare for Flash on it since Flash was send out first and probably would beat Revival. And still he looked like an amateur playing against a pro.
On January 07 2013 21:12 AxionSteel wrote: Ah, Flash wins a Bo1 vs Taeja so he is clearly better. I see. Taeja roflstomped BaBy, who imo outclassed Flash in a Bo3, so yeh. Pretty pointless.
Thats why I said "if you look at the way he played yesterday".
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
LOL Hero could chose the map he was going to play on and he a week to prepare for Flash on it since Flash was send out first and probably would beat Revival. And still he looked like an amateur playing against a pro.
HerO has at every occasion said that he hates the map and the only reason he doesn't have it vetoed is because tournaments use it. I can assure you that he's not comfortable playing Antiga. Protoss in general is not and it was pretty obvious why. You get contained super easily on 2 bases without much you can do about it. Flash played the map perfectly, as I said. But it was one game on a terran favored map. That doesn't mean Flash > HerO.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
lol bro.
There was a reason Hero was sent out on this map and that reason is clear cut in the link below.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
lol bro.
There was a reason Hero was sent out on this map and that reason is clear cut in the link below.
I would screenshot you the many times he's said on stream that he hates Antiga. If it was about him being comfortable on a map, he would've played on Cloud Kingdom or Entombed (which I think is new in the map pool?) Anyway. It was fairly obvious why protoss in general hate the map. Even if not, one game doesn't mean Flash > HerO. Flash played it amazingly, not taking anything away from him. But it was one game on Antiga.
To the guy saying that HerO looked like an amateur vs a pro: watch Flash vs MC from Up/Downs.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
lol bro.
There was a reason Hero was sent out on this map and that reason is clear cut in the link below.
I would screenshot you the many times he's said on stream that he hates Antiga. If it was about him being comfortable on a map, he would've played on Cloud Kingdom or Entombed (which I think is new in the map pool?) Anyway. It was fairly obvious why protoss in general hate the map. Even if not, one game doesn't mean Flash > HerO. Flash played it amazingly, not taking anything away from him. But it was one game on Antiga.
To the guy saying that HerO looked like an amateur vs a pro: watch Flash vs MC from Up/Downs.
On January 07 2013 16:46 mongmong wrote: If he is truly code S level then he shouldve gone 5-0 to all his opponents like LiquidHero did last season. Even so, Hero's run ended in ro32 by soulkey and curious.A true Code S level player doesnt fail twice in up and downs. Call me a sadist, but im extremely gladthat he didnt make it and dont have to see any more blind Flash fanboys going "oh my GOD he is making everyone look like a noob"
So if you don't 5-0 your U&D group you're not truly code S level? Really?
Not really implying he isnt Code S, but he's blown his opportunity TWICE. If Flash really wanted to prove that he is code S level player he should have, but couldnt. Why lose to MC by being ridiculously greedy when he already knows that MC is super aggressive? Flash fanboys need to wait until HOTS comes out because this season's GSL is the last they play on WOL.
What do you mean you aren't implying it? You literally just said that if he were truly code S level he would have gone 5-0. That's not implying he isn't; it's just saying he isn't. Making one oversight in one game which prevents you from getting into code S doesn't mean that you aren't at that level. That's just silly.
If this was his first try I would agree but you dont seem to know where he was at last time?
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
lol bro.
There was a reason Hero was sent out on this map and that reason is clear cut in the link below.
I would screenshot you the many times he's said on stream that he hates Antiga. If it was about him being comfortable on a map, he would've played on Cloud Kingdom or Entombed (which I think is new in the map pool?) Anyway. It was fairly obvious why protoss in general hate the map. Even if not, one game doesn't mean Flash > HerO. Flash played it amazingly, not taking anything away from him. But it was one game on Antiga.
To the guy saying that HerO looked like an amateur vs a pro: watch Flash vs MC from Up/Downs.
Still, why did he play that map if he hates it?
Yeah, I watched Flash vs MC. Whats your point?
Maybe because the coach was confident that he'd win regardless. Maybe he thought HerO was the best option to play, even if he hates the map. The same guy also played JYP vs Flash later. I don't know why but I'm pretty sure it wasn't HerO saying "Hey, I wanna play this map!"
Flash's opening looked like something I could do better. But it was just one game so it doesn't really mean MC > Flash. Right?
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
lol bro.
There was a reason Hero was sent out on this map and that reason is clear cut in the link below.
I would screenshot you the many times he's said on stream that he hates Antiga. If it was about him being comfortable on a map, he would've played on Cloud Kingdom or Entombed (which I think is new in the map pool?) Anyway. It was fairly obvious why protoss in general hate the map. Even if not, one game doesn't mean Flash > HerO. Flash played it amazingly, not taking anything away from him. But it was one game on Antiga.
To the guy saying that HerO looked like an amateur vs a pro: watch Flash vs MC from Up/Downs.
Just because he hates it doesn't mean that he isn't good on it.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
lol bro.
There was a reason Hero was sent out on this map and that reason is clear cut in the link below.
I would screenshot you the many times he's said on stream that he hates Antiga. If it was about him being comfortable on a map, he would've played on Cloud Kingdom or Entombed (which I think is new in the map pool?) Anyway. It was fairly obvious why protoss in general hate the map. Even if not, one game doesn't mean Flash > HerO. Flash played it amazingly, not taking anything away from him. But it was one game on Antiga.
To the guy saying that HerO looked like an amateur vs a pro: watch Flash vs MC from Up/Downs.
Flash plays better on bigger maps. Flash has a horrible record on Cloud Kingdom. Whereas in Flash vs Hero, Hero had a great record on Antiga vs Terran. So what's your point?
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
lol bro.
There was a reason Hero was sent out on this map and that reason is clear cut in the link below.
I would screenshot you the many times he's said on stream that he hates Antiga. If it was about him being comfortable on a map, he would've played on Cloud Kingdom or Entombed (which I think is new in the map pool?) Anyway. It was fairly obvious why protoss in general hate the map. Even if not, one game doesn't mean Flash > HerO. Flash played it amazingly, not taking anything away from him. But it was one game on Antiga.
To the guy saying that HerO looked like an amateur vs a pro: watch Flash vs MC from Up/Downs.
Flash plays better on bigger maps. Flash isn't nearly as good on smaller maps. So what's your point?
Uh what Which basically means Flash is only a Code S level player on big maps? What kind of argument is that. Also, not building a bunker doesn't have shit to do with Cloud Kingdom, WTF. He just played a horrible opening. HerO didn't even make mistakes if you watch their game but neither did Flash. Antiga did the rest. That's why it was such a high level game.
Here's what happened in HerO vs Flash.
Standard openings from both. Flash moves out with medivacs, contains HerO because you can easily do that on Antiga. Flash sets up a third, continues to reinforce his army, keeps his contain up because Antiga lets you do that. His economy kicks in, he has even more reinforcements, his upgrades pull ahead. HerO has to move out and take a fight where he can't trade cost efficiently because he moves down into a concave. Armies trade kinda evenly but that means Flash comes out ahead. Flash builds army back up faster, attacks again, kills third. HerO loses. Flash played amazingly, I said that a thousand times. But so did HerO. It was one game on Antiga.
On January 07 2013 16:46 mongmong wrote: If he is truly code S level then he shouldve gone 5-0 to all his opponents like LiquidHero did last season. Even so, Hero's run ended in ro32 by soulkey and curious.A true Code S level player doesnt fail twice in up and downs. Call me a sadist, but im extremely gladthat he didnt make it and dont have to see any more blind Flash fanboys going "oh my GOD he is making everyone look like a noob"
So if you don't 5-0 your U&D group you're not truly code S level? Really?
Not really implying he isnt Code S, but he's blown his opportunity TWICE. If Flash really wanted to prove that he is code S level player he should have, but couldnt. Why lose to MC by being ridiculously greedy when he already knows that MC is super aggressive? Flash fanboys need to wait until HOTS comes out because this season's GSL is the last they play on WOL.
What do you mean you aren't implying it? You literally just said that if he were truly code S level he would have gone 5-0. That's not implying he isn't; it's just saying he isn't. Making one oversight in one game which prevents you from getting into code S doesn't mean that you aren't at that level. That's just silly.
If this was his first try I would agree but you dont seem to know where he was at last time?
Of course I do. However, that was two and a half months ago. He wasn't as good back then, and it really has no bearing on his current skill level. Incidentally, even at the time he still tied for second in the group. It's been since Proleague came back that he's really started to show faster and faster improvement.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
lol bro.
There was a reason Hero was sent out on this map and that reason is clear cut in the link below.
I would screenshot you the many times he's said on stream that he hates Antiga. If it was about him being comfortable on a map, he would've played on Cloud Kingdom or Entombed (which I think is new in the map pool?) Anyway. It was fairly obvious why protoss in general hate the map. Even if not, one game doesn't mean Flash > HerO. Flash played it amazingly, not taking anything away from him. But it was one game on Antiga.
To the guy saying that HerO looked like an amateur vs a pro: watch Flash vs MC from Up/Downs.
Flash plays better on bigger maps. Flash isn't nearly as good on smaller maps. So what's your point?
Uh what Which basically means Flash is only a Code S level player on big maps? What kind of argument is that. Also, not building a bunker doesn't have shit to do with Cloud Kingdom, WTF. He just played a horrible opening. HerO didn't even make mistakes if you watch their game but neither did Flash. Antiga did the rest. That's why it was such a high level game.
Yes It would hurt me to watch Hero vs Flash vod from yesterday but I already have watched it several times since it was such a high level play. I was amazed by both sides. Flash's monsterous fucking macro and Hero's insaaaane micro. A truely top notch TvP.
Fantasy was the better player than Flash at the end of Brood War, I don't know why people say that "Fantasy might have the edge now, but Flash will beat him in the end." Fantasy even had to practice Brood War for longer.
All this arguing is pretty pointless anyway, as we all know that when HoTS comes out and most game knowledge is reset, Flash will improve the fastest and become the best for all eternity. He is God after all...
Do his parents even come to watch him play or do they know the outcome already :p? He is definately code s when its 20 min in and his resources are 0/0 and he is crunching nerds you know he is good .
Edit: Oh shiz , I forgot it was my bday till i saw my post ! Thanks TL!
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
lol bro.
There was a reason Hero was sent out on this map and that reason is clear cut in the link below.
I would screenshot you the many times he's said on stream that he hates Antiga. If it was about him being comfortable on a map, he would've played on Cloud Kingdom or Entombed (which I think is new in the map pool?) Anyway. It was fairly obvious why protoss in general hate the map. Even if not, one game doesn't mean Flash > HerO. Flash played it amazingly, not taking anything away from him. But it was one game on Antiga.
To the guy saying that HerO looked like an amateur vs a pro: watch Flash vs MC from Up/Downs.
Flash plays better on bigger maps. Flash isn't nearly as good on smaller maps. So what's your point?
Uh what Which basically means Flash is only a Code S level player on big maps? What kind of argument is that. Also, not building a bunker doesn't have shit to do with Cloud Kingdom, WTF. He just played a horrible opening. HerO didn't even make mistakes if you watch their game but neither did Flash. Antiga did the rest. That's why it was such a high level game.
Here's what happened in HerO vs Flash.
Standard openings from both. Flash moves out with medivacs, contains HerO because you can easily do that on Antiga. Flash sets up a third, continues to reinforce his army, keeps his contain up because Antiga lets you do that. His economy kicks in, he has even more reinforcements, his upgrades pull ahead. HerO has to move out and take a fight where he can't trade cost efficiently because he moves down into a concave. Armies trade kinda evenly but that means Flash comes out ahead. Flash builds army back up faster, attacks again, kills third. HerO loses. Flash played amazingly, I said that a thousand times. But so did HerO. It was one game on Antiga.
I said flash is better on bigger maps. Also, look at Flashes record on cloud kingdom. There's a lot more then "just not building a bunker" going on there. Flash isn't as good on smaller maps because he's open to all kinds of all ins. Well, I personally never said that hero didn't play we'll. so, basically what you're saying is the only way that you'll be convinced that Flash is the better player is if he stomps hero on a map that favors Protoss, correct?
On January 07 2013 22:03 Grumbels wrote: Fantasy was the better player than Flash at the end of Brood War, I don't know why people say that "Fantasy might have the edge now, but Flash will beat him in the end." Fantasy even had to practice Brood War for longer.
Better at head to head, maybe. I believe Flash's TvZ was still unrivalled to the end of BW. No doubt, no doubt, Fantasy was overall running deeper in the OSL...
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
lol bro.
There was a reason Hero was sent out on this map and that reason is clear cut in the link below.
I would screenshot you the many times he's said on stream that he hates Antiga. If it was about him being comfortable on a map, he would've played on Cloud Kingdom or Entombed (which I think is new in the map pool?) Anyway. It was fairly obvious why protoss in general hate the map. Even if not, one game doesn't mean Flash > HerO. Flash played it amazingly, not taking anything away from him. But it was one game on Antiga.
To the guy saying that HerO looked like an amateur vs a pro: watch Flash vs MC from Up/Downs.
Flash plays better on bigger maps. Flash isn't nearly as good on smaller maps. So what's your point?
Uh what Which basically means Flash is only a Code S level player on big maps? What kind of argument is that. Also, not building a bunker doesn't have shit to do with Cloud Kingdom, WTF. He just played a horrible opening. HerO didn't even make mistakes if you watch their game but neither did Flash. Antiga did the rest. That's why it was such a high level game.
Here's what happened in HerO vs Flash.
Standard openings from both. Flash moves out with medivacs, contains HerO because you can easily do that on Antiga. Flash sets up a third, continues to reinforce his army, keeps his contain up because Antiga lets you do that. His economy kicks in, he has even more reinforcements, his upgrades pull ahead. HerO has to move out and take a fight where he can't trade cost efficiently because he moves down into a concave. Armies trade kinda evenly but that means Flash comes out ahead. Flash builds army back up faster, attacks again, kills third. HerO loses. Flash played amazingly, I said that a thousand times. But so did HerO. It was one game on Antiga.
I said flash is better on bigger maps. Also, look at Flashes record on cloud kingdom. There's a lot more then "just not building a bunker" going on there. Flash isn't as good on smaller maps because he's open to all kinds of all ins. Well, I personally never said that hero didn't play we'll. so, basically what you're saying is the only way that you'll be convinced that Flash is the better player is if he stomps hero on a map that favors Protoss, correct?
No, the only way I'll be convinced is if Flash starts posting results over a long period of time and establishes himself as a top SC2 player. Single matches don't really say too much in my opinion. I'm not saying that Flash isn't the better player. All I'm saying is that this was one game on a debatable map. So people should be a little more careful proclaiming him the "cleary better" player.
Doesn't matter how good he is at the moment, we must ask ourselves how brilliant can he get with the impossibly fast improvement rate he has been showing since the switch to SC2.
On January 07 2013 09:28 dbg wrote: hes the best terran player in the world
If he surpasses 4 Code S championships, when right now he can't even qualify, we'll talk.
While I don't believe that he is the to terran or nowhere near the top at the moment, you don't need to have more championships than MVP to be the top terran atm.
If the system for GSL Code A/S/UpDown matches wasn't so odd, the true players that deserve it would make it more often. Prepping a few solid builds specifically for Flash on certain maps is a far cry from a true, and longer series against some of the players he has had to face.
On January 07 2013 09:28 dbg wrote: hes the best terran player in the world
If he surpasses 4 Code S championships, when right now he can't even qualify, we'll talk.
While I don't believe that he is the to terran or nowhere near the top at the moment, you don't need to have more championships than MVP to be the top terran atm.
On January 07 2013 09:28 dbg wrote: hes the best terran player in the world
If he surpasses 4 Code S championships, when right now he can't even qualify, we'll talk.
While I don't believe that he is the to terran or nowhere near the top at the moment, you don't need to have more championships than MVP to be the top terran atm.
He also didn't say top terran but best terran player in the world and that title still goes to Mvp.
On January 08 2013 00:31 divito wrote: If the system for GSL Code A/S/UpDown matches wasn't so odd, the true players that deserve it would make it more often. Prepping a few solid builds specifically for Flash on certain maps is a far cry from a true, and longer series against some of the players he has had to face.
How is the system for Code A odd? If he would have won his last BO3, he would be in Code S. He lost, so he goes to Up-and-Downs. The u-d are very unforgiving, if you want to go to Code S then you have to win all of your games, otherwise you rely on luck. Look at Squirtle and Taeja, both of those guys are clearly Code S talent, so what did they do? They destroyed everyone in their u-d group and are going to Code S. That is what Code S caliber players do: they destroy non-Code S level players to get into Code S. Flash has had a few chances to do that (last season Code A matches, this season Code A matches, and the two u-d chances), which he hasn't done. He might be fringe Code S level, but he is not a top tier Code S player, or he would have dominated his group.
Top 25 Koreans, top 5-10 Terrans? I don't really have a solid peg on Flash in all matchups; same with Fantasy and a few others. His TvT and TvZ seem like they could use improvement. I don't think he's top 3 quite yet, although based on his rate of improvement, I could see him getting there relatively quickly.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
Riddle me this: If Flash is Code S level, why is he even playing in the Up and Downs? Shouldn't he be able to roll through Code A and hop directly to Code S? Bottom line, Flash is a Code A level player(albeit: a topping Code A player, and being "code a" isn't exactly an insult). He's had FLASHES(get it?) of brilliance, but there are still obvious holes in his play.
Code A level at present, which is no bad thing as any top tier Code A Player can beat anyone on their day. The only Kespa player i have seen so far i consider to Code S is Rain.
As to the future who knows. HOTS is gonna fuck it all up for at least 6 months to year, where any one could win the GSL
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
"You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO."
He's getting to Code S regular level but not just there yet. I don't project him to pass MVP anytime soon yet. His mechanics are unbelievable but MVP's game sense is just crazy and his ability to adapt to the changing meta. I think he'll nevertheless become a very a top tier player and I can't wait to see it.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
"You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO."
- DarkLordOlli
Wow, that was the most incredible argument I've ever seen. Thank you very much. Let me rephrase that. "A map that favors intelligent terrans". Happy now? My point still stands, it's one game on Antiga Shipyard, a map every protoss absolutely despises unless it's PvP or they want something to blink all in on. Now can you please not be stupid and make real arguments instead?
But before that inevitably doesn't happen, why don't you tell me how to take a third base on Antiga as protoss against what Flash did. I'm sure you know better than every protoss out there and HerO too. But maybe don't do it in here because this is going far off topic.
I think he's one of the players who could be in code s, dependent on u&d group or code a bracket. Too few results to say anything else, really. Sometimes he's plays really well, sometimes he seems to make weird decisions, which may cost him the game. That's good enough to get into code s, to be a regular is something else. You almost have to be top tier to place for code s consistently.
@ antiga discussion: Lol, even if the map was protoss favored, 1 game doesn't say anything. Bomber proves time and time again that consistency is a very useful skill toi have.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
"You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO."
- DarkLordOlli
Wow, that was the most incredible argument I've ever seen. Thank you very much. Let me rephrase that. "A map that favors intelligent terrans". Happy now? My point still stands, it's one game on Antiga Shipyard, a map every protoss absolutely despises unless it's PvP or they want something to blink all in on. Now can you please not be stupid and make real arguments instead?
But before that inevitably doesn't happen, why don't you tell me how to take a third base on Antiga as protoss against what Flash did. I'm sure you know better than every protoss out there and HerO too. But maybe don't do it in here because this is going far off topic.
You're sitting here saying this, and I'm just laughing that it was a Protoss favored map in 2012. Your argument holds no weight.
Yea, it must be brutal for Protoss to play on a map they are favored on. How could Hero have ever hoped to win?
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
"You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO."
- DarkLordOlli
Those statistics are inflated by Protoss doing Blink all-ins on Antiga. Playing macro PvT on Antiga is incredibly difficult.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
"You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO."
- DarkLordOlli
Wow, that was the most incredible argument I've ever seen. Thank you very much. Let me rephrase that. "A map that favors intelligent terrans". Happy now? My point still stands, it's one game on Antiga Shipyard, a map every protoss absolutely despises unless it's PvP or they want something to blink all in on. Now can you please not be stupid and make real arguments instead?
But before that inevitably doesn't happen, why don't you tell me how to take a third base on Antiga as protoss against what Flash did. I'm sure you know better than every protoss out there and HerO too. But maybe don't do it in here because this is going far off topic.
You're sitting here saying this, and I'm just laughing that it was a Protoss favored map in 2012. Your argument holds no weight.
Yea, it must be brutal for Protoss to play on a map they are favored on. How could Hero have ever hoped to win?
See post below you. As for you, you're probably 12 years old and haven't learned how to probably formulate an argument yet. Don't worry kiddo, we've all been there. That's why you avoid the question and go back to your statistics. According to those, zerg is also not winning everything! Statistics tell no stories.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
"You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO."
- DarkLordOlli
Wow, that was the most incredible argument I've ever seen. Thank you very much. Let me rephrase that. "A map that favors intelligent terrans". Happy now? My point still stands, it's one game on Antiga Shipyard, a map every protoss absolutely despises unless it's PvP or they want something to blink all in on. Now can you please not be stupid and make real arguments instead?
But before that inevitably doesn't happen, why don't you tell me how to take a third base on Antiga as protoss against what Flash did. I'm sure you know better than every protoss out there and HerO too. But maybe don't do it in here because this is going far off topic.
You're sitting here saying this, and I'm just laughing that it was a Protoss favored map in 2012. Your argument holds no weight.
Yea, it must be brutal for Protoss to play on a map they are favored on. How could Hero have ever hoped to win?
See post below you. As for you, you're probably 12 years old and haven't learned how to probably formulate an argument yet. Don't worry kiddo, we've all been there. That's why you avoid the question and go back to your statistics. According to those, zerg is also not winning everything! Statistics tell no stories.
Total for 1st and 2nd Place after patch:
• Protoss - 24 • Zerg - 25 • Terran - 9
Where do you come up with this stuff? Without statistics you're just spewing random opinion.
I think Flash is going to be one of the best Terrans in the world if he isn't already. His macro is insane. Someone said he seemed like a less cocky version of Bomber and I agree. If his decision making and understanding of the game improve a bit he's going to be unstoppable. Especially if they introduce mech friendly maps :p (and nerf the infestor like Browder said he would XD)
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
"You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO."
- DarkLordOlli
Wow, that was the most incredible argument I've ever seen. Thank you very much. Let me rephrase that. "A map that favors intelligent terrans". Happy now? My point still stands, it's one game on Antiga Shipyard, a map every protoss absolutely despises unless it's PvP or they want something to blink all in on. Now can you please not be stupid and make real arguments instead?
But before that inevitably doesn't happen, why don't you tell me how to take a third base on Antiga as protoss against what Flash did. I'm sure you know better than every protoss out there and HerO too. But maybe don't do it in here because this is going far off topic.
You're sitting here saying this, and I'm just laughing that it was a Protoss favored map in 2012. Your argument holds no weight.
Yea, it must be brutal for Protoss to play on a map they are favored on. How could Hero have ever hoped to win?
See post below you. As for you, you're probably 12 years old and haven't learned how to probably formulate an argument yet. Don't worry kiddo, we've all been there. That's why you avoid the question and go back to your statistics. According to those, zerg is also not winning everything! Statistics tell no stories.
Total for 1st and 2nd Place after patch:
• Protoss - 24 • Zerg - 25 • Terran - 9
Where do you come up with this stuff? Without statistics you're just spewing random opinion.
Not counting the WCS events because too much randomness involved, too many people dropping out, too many seeds for foreigners, etc. So there's your statistics. Now please finally answer my question, how does protoss take a third on Antiga? If you still won't answer, this "discussion" ends here and your opinion is absolutely worth nothing because you obviously are not able to rationally look at gameplay instead of brainless statistics that don't tell you how many blink all ins or other protoss cheese happened on Antiga because you can't properly take a third vs a good terran.
to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs
On January 08 2013 02:29 Wingblade wrote: Riddle me this: If Flash is Code S level, why is he even playing in the Up and Downs? Shouldn't he be able to roll through Code A and hop directly to Code S? Bottom line, Flash is a Code A level player(albeit: a topping Code A player, and being "code a" isn't exactly an insult). He's had FLASHES(get it?) of brilliance, but there are still obvious holes in his play.
Flash is still improving and he is obviously better than he were in last season Code A. Now he dropped only because tie-breaker and not that he performed worse than MC.
Nevertheless, as he is now, there is no way that Flash won't advance directly into Code S next season.
EDIT: Just saw that Taeja was 4:0 in his Up&Down group. Judging from yesterday, he is not so much above Flash as regular Code-S to Code-A level.
On January 08 2013 03:17 1Dhalism wrote: to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs
What about Taeja? He was fielded in the proleague, and still manage to dominate his U-D group. Which is why everyone is saying Flash might be good, but is not the best.
On January 08 2013 03:17 1Dhalism wrote: to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs
What about Taeja? He was fielded in the proleague, and still manage to dominate his U-D group. Which is why everyone is saying Flash might be good, but is not the best.
a) his matches where a day apart b) who knows how he wouldve performed in UnDs if he had won 4 games c) he is a lot more experienced then flash, and probably has more strategies that he is capable of executing well d) his UnD group was a lot weaker. And as far as coaches decision to field him - they picked him as 3rd player, not first.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
"You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO."
- DarkLordOlli
Those statistics are inflated by Protoss doing Blink all-ins on Antiga. Playing macro PvT on Antiga is incredibly difficult.
point is the people who Hero dropped a game recently include monchi, ret and Babyk. Those players are obviously good, but code s? that's just the importance of Bo1.
On January 08 2013 02:08 convention wrote: How is the system for Code A odd? If he would have won his last BO3, he would be in Code S. He lost, so he goes to Up-and-Downs. The u-d are very unforgiving, if you want to go to Code S then you have to win all of your games, otherwise you rely on luck.
This is where our opinion differs, but not drastically. Less games in a series is more luck-based than more games, and the GSL is a lot of the former unfortunately. Like I said in my post, it's not hard to tailor strategies for one specific player. Flash (and some of the other newer players) have to rely on their quick assimilation of SC2 and their natural tendencies to succeed.
They might have some outside help regarding the players they're facing, but unlike everyone else, they haven't been around to have a lot of that knowledge. Where their natural ability, mindset and mechanics come into play is those longer series, in my opinion at least.
Just give him time and he will be transformed into one of the best players. FlaSh is still like 19? so he has plenty of time for improvements. His BW mechanics aren't going anywhere neither.
On January 08 2013 03:17 1Dhalism wrote: to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs
What about Taeja? He was fielded in the proleague, and still manage to dominate his U-D group. Which is why everyone is saying Flash might be good, but is not the best.
a) his matches where a day apart b) who knows how he wouldve performed in UnDs if he had won 4 games c) he is a lot more experienced then flash, and probably has more strategies that he is capable of executing well d) his UnD group was a lot weaker. And as far as coaches decision to field him - they picked him as 3rd player, not first.
Stop making excuses for Flash. Man. He lost. He is not a top code S player. He probably is good enough to be low Code S right now. I dont even see why there is a discussion on this. He has failed twice. I fully suspect that he will continue improving and he has some amazing games played already. He is just not at the top yet.
Anyone else notice that LiquidHero forgot to start his twilight in his game vs Flash? He didn't commit to colo tech and his twilight started at 10:52 despite sitting on a lot of resources.
On January 08 2013 03:17 1Dhalism wrote: to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs
What about Taeja? He was fielded in the proleague, and still manage to dominate his U-D group. Which is why everyone is saying Flash might be good, but is not the best.
a) his matches where a day apart b) who knows how he wouldve performed in UnDs if he had won 4 games c) he is a lot more experienced then flash, and probably has more strategies that he is capable of executing well d) his UnD group was a lot weaker. And as far as coaches decision to field him - they picked him as 3rd player, not first.
Stop making excuses for Flash. Man. He lost. He is not a top code S player. He probably is good enough to be low Code S right now. I dont even see why there is a discussion on this. He has failed twice. I fully suspect that he will continue improving and he has some amazing games played already. He is just not at the top yet.
The point is Flash didn't exactly lost. He was in a three-way tie with MC and Jeadong. All three of them has a score of 3-2 in maps, but Flash lost due to tie-breaker.
Your saying: MC is Code-S and Flash is not? It was a bit unlucky to have such an even group. And I can bet that Flash will be the only player in Up&Down groups with 3:2 record that didn't get a Wild Card group at least.
On January 08 2013 05:51 Emzeeshady wrote: Also I have a suspicion the op just made this thread to enjoy the chaos that would ensue :p
Idk, this site: http://aligulac.com/players/55/ is by far the most accurate, detailed, and in depth rating system of players and it has Flash at # 11.
I doubted it because it sometimes produced questionable predictions with foreign matches, but it's been updated and many speak in its favor. He has beaten several Code S players, good ones at that, and his play continues to rapidly improve. Look at his games from the hyprid proleague, to the MLG invitational, to the MVP invitational, and to today.
He is still improving and performs very well in macro games. Just like Baby, Bbyong, and Innovation. Remember how bad innovation looked against Leenock? Perfect responses to games that aren't standard aren't just magically made. They come from huge amounts of experience that enable you to react perfectly in a given situation. So Flash died to an aggressive protoss poke and an early muta ling bane timing. Do you think he will make the same mistake again?
Macro wise he is high Code S. I don't know how that can be doubted. He somehow always has a significant supply lead against his opponents, even zergs. His micro is lacking, but of all things that can be improved micro is the most straightforward, and he will learn how to defend while doing his greedy macro builds.
I'll admit I'm a Flash fanboy-- his play has revitalized my passion for this game and I have started to enjoy playing it again, things I lost during the Queen Patch massacre. He plays such an in depth and thorough macro style unlike any other SC2 player I've seen, constantly scouting with scvs, building turret roads with his mech pushes, scanning everywhere, flawless macro, and just solid and clean play leaving nothing to chance.
He has started taking more risks, but if you watched his proxy barracks game you can see that they really aren't risks. He may not have made Code S this season, but he is certainly here to stay. Having the best record in Proleague is a tremendous feat, and I foresee him becoming the world's best player, as he was in BW, sometime within the next year.
I really don't know how Flash gets his advantages so well. Its said that he just does more of the "little things", but it always seems like he is just better and ahead of his opponent... Flash fighting!!!
He's Code S caliber for sure, but just ended up in the group of death and lost out on tiebreakers. The thing is with code s, the 32 players cap is just an arbitrary number. With the exception of the elite, the difference b/w code s and code a players is not very large. Most code a players can beat code s players in a bo 1 or a bo 3 on any given day and even the elite can drop games too against them.
On January 08 2013 07:04 Canucklehead wrote: He's Code S caliber for sure, but just ended up in the group of death and lost out on tiebreakers. The thing is with code s, the 32 players cap is just an arbitrary number. With the exception of the elite, the difference b/w code s and code a players is not very large. Most code a players can beat code s players in a bo 1 or a bo 3 on any given day and even the elite can drop games too against them.
I agree with this. But really there's no weak groups in Up/Downs. I think there's an even harder group (group D) than the one Flash got in.
On January 08 2013 07:04 Canucklehead wrote: He's Code S caliber for sure, but just ended up in the group of death and lost out on tiebreakers. The thing is with code s, the 32 players cap is just an arbitrary number. With the exception of the elite, the difference b/w code s and code a players is not very large. Most code a players can beat code s players in a bo 1 or a bo 3 on any given day and even the elite can drop games too against them.
I agree with this. But really there's no weak groups in Up/Downs. I think there's an even harder group (group D) than the one Flash got in.
Group E seems by far the easiest to me. Flash's group was weird. Jaedong is an enigma, a combination of terrific mechanics and lack of experience making him capable of near perfect games or horrible Code B games. Yoda is a top Terran, Yongwha a teamleague Juggernaut, and Vampire the odd man out.
I agree that his group wasn't the hardest, but all Up/Down groups certainly aren't the same. As aforementioned, group E is lackluster and fields players like Huk (free win for anyone) and Nestea (poor mechanics by Korean standards) and low-mid tier palyers like Center and Finale.
if flash was 'code s caliber' then he'd be in code s, and not barely getting into the up and downs. he's not that good. he makes alot of mistakes in his sc2 games. he is mid level code a. proven by his performances.
On January 08 2013 05:51 Emzeeshady wrote: Also I have a suspicion the op just made this thread to enjoy the chaos that would ensue :p
Idk, this site: http://aligulac.com/players/55/ is by far the most accurate, detailed, and in depth rating system of players and it has Flash at # 11.
I doubted it because it sometimes produced questionable predictions with foreign matches, but it's been updated and many speak in its favor. He has beaten several Code S players, good ones at that, and his play continues to rapidly improve. Look at his games from the hyprid proleague, to the MLG invitational, to the MVP invitational, and to today.
He is still improving and performs very well in macro games. Just like Baby, Bbyong, and Innovation. Remember how bad innovation looked against Leenock? Perfect responses to games that aren't standard aren't just magically made. They come from huge amounts of experience that enable you to react perfectly in a given situation. So Flash died to an aggressive protoss poke and an early muta ling bane timing. Do you think he will make the same mistake again?
Macro wise he is high Code S. I don't know how that can be doubted. He somehow always has a significant supply lead against his opponents, even zergs. His micro is lacking, but of all things that can be improved micro is the most straightforward, and he will learn how to defend while doing his greedy macro builds.
I'll admit I'm a Flash fanboy-- his play has revitalized my passion for this game and I have started to enjoy playing it again, things I lost during the Queen Patch massacre. He plays such an in depth and thorough macro style unlike any other SC2 player I've seen, constantly scouting with scvs, building turret roads with his mech pushes, scanning everywhere, flawless macro, and just solid and clean play leaving nothing to chance.
He has started taking more risks, but if you watched his proxy barracks game you can see that they really aren't risks. He may not have made Code S this season, but he is certainly here to stay. Having the best record in Proleague is a tremendous feat, and I foresee him becoming the world's best player, as he was in BW, sometime within the next year.
No one works harder than this man.
LMFAO that list is not accurate at all. It places Effort at 10 and Leenock at 12. I don't know what stats the owner of that site used to rank them but they are clearly misguided.
If you look at the math it's anything but misguided. Not that I expect anyone here to do that.
On January 08 2013 03:17 1Dhalism wrote: to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs
What about Taeja? He was fielded in the proleague, and still manage to dominate his U-D group. Which is why everyone is saying Flash might be good, but is not the best.
a) his matches where a day apart b) who knows how he wouldve performed in UnDs if he had won 4 games c) he is a lot more experienced then flash, and probably has more strategies that he is capable of executing well d) his UnD group was a lot weaker. And as far as coaches decision to field him - they picked him as 3rd player, not first.
Stop making excuses for Flash. Man. He lost. He is not a top code S player. He probably is good enough to be low Code S right now. I dont even see why there is a discussion on this. He has failed twice. I fully suspect that he will continue improving and he has some amazing games played already. He is just not at the top yet.
The thing is,,, that if you watched the games and if your decent at the game as well, you can easily see how insanely good this guy it is. Results fucking don't matter in the short run cus variance is too high and one can lose to silly stuff (which he actually did).
Flash is one of the best players in the world. Many of the kespa terrans are insanely good as well. Tough to say which one is the best, but without doubt Flash is a top 32 player in the world. Whether he is a top 5 player or "just" a top 30 player is tough to say. But I think people saying he is definitely a low code s player/high code are slightly ignorant as well. Noone can be that specific yet, and there aren't any apparing flaws in his game which isn't easily fixable.
let us not forget that flash played yoda after yoda was already through to code s, that was a free win for flash. yet he still didnt make it up.
also i find his cc first always build very boring. if he even did make it to code s, that build would get destroyed everytime and he'd get embarrassed like he did at MLG vs Life
I think hes the best terran right now, I would love to watch a bo7 between him and mvp to settle it. Hell, he might even be the best player overall, he plays unlike any other player, its rly too bad he got screwed in Up/Down
I think it's a bit unfair when people state: yeah, he lost against this rush, but he's not going to make the same mistake twice. As if Flash is the only person in the world that is improving. You can always say that about anybody.
While I have no problem with the intention behind this thread, it's another elephant-in-the-room thread that doesn't seem to really have any answers.
You're going to have the die-hard flash fans defending the hell out of him, and the sc2 nuts bashing the hell out of him. There are very few posts here that seem to be taking a legitimately moderate approach to the topic at hand.
Flash is a very good player, after seeing him play for real I no longer doubt that he will be one of the absolute bests at the game, and in fact don't want him to fail because I see so much potential for true greatness.
However I don't believe he is the all-powerful godlike player that he's been hyped up to be... yet. No amount of "up and down match format is flawed!" or "he all-killed egtl!" prove anything at all other than "he did really well in proleague vs egtl but lost in his up and down groups".
Feel free to keep spouting it as much as you'd like one way or another. That's your right on the forum and until TL takes a nazi approach to their modding I don't see it going away. I'm going to wait and see what happens, and hope that he can give some of the more popular long-time sc2 pros a run for their money as far as results are concerned.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
Well, protoss may hate the map but the numbers don't lie and those numbers are in favor of Protoss.
He is a very good player who would be a worry to any player he faces. I think that is all you need to know, it is very difficult to rank him against everybody else without any bias.
He does, and will continue to, cause a problem for anyone he faces. That is where I rank Flash at the moment.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
Well, protoss may hate the map but the numbers don't lie and those numbers are in favor of Protoss.
Eh, don't bother. I've tried and no one will listen. Protoss and Zergs will continue to claim that Antiga is a Terran map and they can't win on it, while having super 50% winrates.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
Well, protoss may hate the map but the numbers don't lie and those numbers are in favor of Protoss.
Eh, don't bother. I've tried and no one will listen. Protoss and Zergs will continue to claim that Antiga is a Terran map and they can't win on it, while having super 50% winrates.
it's kinda like that time when lolartosis said crossfire was terran favored tvz cause of narrow chokes op siege tank map. oh wait, there are like 3-4 paths i can counter attack.
On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them.
He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja.
Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument.
It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012.
But, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics.
So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga.
a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself?
Well, protoss may hate the map but the numbers don't lie and those numbers are in favor of Protoss.
Eh, don't bother. I've tried and no one will listen. Protoss and Zergs will continue to claim that Antiga is a Terran map and they can't win on it, while having super 50% winrates.
it's kinda like that time when lolartosis said crossfire was terran favored tvz cause of narrow chokes op siege tank map. oh wait, there are like 3-4 paths i can counter attack.
Classic Brood War argument: narrow chokes? Terran favoured because of tanks. High ground? Terran favoured because of tanks. Cliffs? Terran favoured because of tanks.
On January 08 2013 07:19 RanDomFox wrote: if flash was 'code s caliber' then he'd be in code s, and not barely getting into the up and downs. he's not that good. he makes alot of mistakes in his sc2 games. he is mid level code a. proven by his performances.
How exactly does one barely get into the up and downs? That doesn't even make sense. Are you referring to his performances like his 69% win rate in Proleague and tying for second in his U&D group? Damn, that just screams of a mid-tier code A player.
On January 08 2013 07:33 RanDomFox wrote: let us not forget that flash played yoda after yoda was already through to code s, that was a free win for flash. yet he still didnt make it up.
also i find his cc first always build very boring. if he even did make it to code s, that build would get destroyed everytime and he'd get embarrassed like he did at MLG vs Life
You mean like how MC played YongHwa after YongHwa was already out of the group? Once upon a time, Flash lost game 5 of the OSL finals against Effort. He used a 14CC, and Effort countered it with an aggressive early pool. The week after, he was playing Jaedong in the MSL finals. People said that he was becoming too predictable with his 14CC, his play was becoming figured out, blah blah blah. He then went 14CC in three straight games and destroyed Jaedong 3-0. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
P.S. His series against Life was 4-2. Considering that Taeja had just lost to him 3-0, I'd say that that's not too bad.
On January 08 2013 07:19 RanDomFox wrote: if flash was 'code s caliber' then he'd be in code s, and not barely getting into the up and downs. he's not that good. he makes alot of mistakes in his sc2 games. he is mid level code a. proven by his performances.
How exactly does one barely get into the up and downs? That doesn't even make sense. Are you referring to his performances like his 69% win rate in Proleague and tying for second in his U&D group? Damn, that just screams of a mid-tier code A player.
On January 08 2013 07:33 RanDomFox wrote: let us not forget that flash played yoda after yoda was already through to code s, that was a free win for flash. yet he still didnt make it up.
also i find his cc first always build very boring. if he even did make it to code s, that build would get destroyed everytime and he'd get embarrassed like he did at MLG vs Life
You mean like how MC played YongHwa after YongHwa was already out of the group? Once upon a time, Flash lost game 5 of the OSL finals against Effort. He used a 14CC, and Effort countered it with an aggressive early pool. The week after, he was playing Jaedong in the MSL finals. People said that he was becoming too predictable with his 14CC, his play was becoming figured out, blah blah blah. He then went 14CC in three straight games and destroyed Jaedong 3-0. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
P.S. His series against Life was 4-2. Considering that Taeja had just lost to him 3-0, I'd say that that's not too bad.
Well in all honesty, one of the 14cc he used vs JD was a valktronic timing that was never even known before that took both JD, and everyone watching by surprise but that's a good point. People did say the same thing about 14cc and then he just refined it to a point where he could do it and still extremely hard to beat with cheese or timing attacks unless youre Effort (seriously..).
On January 08 2013 07:19 RanDomFox wrote: if flash was 'code s caliber' then he'd be in code s, and not barely getting into the up and downs. he's not that good. he makes alot of mistakes in his sc2 games. he is mid level code a. proven by his performances.
How exactly does one barely get into the up and downs? That doesn't even make sense. Are you referring to his performances like his 69% win rate in Proleague and tying for second in his U&D group? Damn, that just screams of a mid-tier code A player.
Are you being sarcastic ? Hope not, because bringing Proleague when there are not really a bunch of GSL players in there is really irrelevant to the discussion about if he is code A/S.
I think most people agree that a Bo1 in BW is like a Bo3 in SC2, there is a bit more variance in this game. In that sense, Flash' performance in the last few days is excellent, but inconclusive. I think one should rather look at the quality of his gameplay - which I can't really judge, but I did feel like his strength rather lies in macro than in micro and that there are a few terrans around with superior overall mechanics even if Flash is up there. So it's similar to his Brood War career. The problem is that macro was the main skill to possess in Brood War, while in SC2 you can't differentiate yourself too much with it. So I don't know if Flash has the same potential as before. I think the best terrans in SC2 are those with really good multitasking and it remains to be seen how Flash will do.
On January 08 2013 07:19 RanDomFox wrote: if flash was 'code s caliber' then he'd be in code s, and not barely getting into the up and downs. he's not that good. he makes alot of mistakes in his sc2 games. he is mid level code a. proven by his performances.
How exactly does one barely get into the up and downs? That doesn't even make sense. Are you referring to his performances like his 69% win rate in Proleague and tying for second in his U&D group? Damn, that just screams of a mid-tier code A player.
Are you being sarcastic ? Hope not, because bringing Proleague when there are not really a bunch of GSL players in there is really irrelevant to the discussion about if he is code A/S.
Half the people he's played are code A/S. Others, like Hero[Join] and Zero are clearly at least code A level.
Flash is 33d player on TLPD, right below Liquid'HerO.
Cut the guy some slack. He had an all-kill in SPL and then he had to play U&D's group of death. Last season Flash didn't get out of his group, losing to Ryung. The later ended up going to Ro4.
GSL code a and s are sc2 leagues, not brood war. sure he won a lot in bw and was god there. but sc2 is different, he's won nothing, couldnt get out of code a. those are facts. He really isn't even the best brood war player to have just switched over either. Innovation, Jaedong, Baby, Rain, etc etc all performing better than him. Those are code s caliber players because they can make it into code s, flash didn't make it and thus isn't good enough.
if gsl code s represents the best 32 players in the world (maybe more now with the new group) and flash couldnt make it then i think hes probably top 50 or 60 in the world. no better though
I think there are only few KESPA players that have high enough skill to get into Code S Ro16 (yes, not Ro32, Ro16) and Flash is one of them. Another one would be Fantasy, Bogus, Rain and Soulkey. Thats probably all. Of course, there is a high number of other KESPA players, who could get into Ro16 (and further) depending on luck and coincidence, but from pure skill perspective - these are the best. So yeah, imo Flash is mid-tier Code S level. Problem is, Up n Downs are just full of mid-tier Code S level players...
Up and Down's are such a Bo1 crapshoot (he got 3-2 and came 4th...) that getting through or not isn't that good an indication of Code S level play or not. Flash is definitely one of the best terrans in korea right now (not many could've pulled that EGTL All Kill) and people saying his TvT is weak need to stop looking at such a small sample size. Losses to Fantasy and Bogus (both Code S level) aren't embarrassing. He and Fantasy will be the best Terrans in the world for HotS.
On January 08 2013 09:10 RanDomFox wrote: GSL code a and s are sc2 leagues, not brood war. sure he won a lot in bw and was god there. but sc2 is different, he's won nothing, couldnt get out of code a. those are facts. He really isn't even the best brood war player to have just switched over either. Innovation, Jaedong, Baby, Rain, etc etc all performing better than him. Those are code s caliber players because they can make it into code s, flash didn't make it and thus isn't good enough.
if gsl code s represents the best 32 players in the world (maybe more now with the new group) and flash couldnt make it then i think hes probably top 50 or 60 in the world. no better though
So basically, Jaedong is doing better, despite having a worse Proleague record and the fact that he got the same score as Flash in their U&D group simply because he happens to be in code S now and Flash isn't. However, Rain, despite being in code B, is currently better than Flash.
You can't have it both ways. Either you stick with your "only players who are currently in code S are good enough to be in code S" or you acknowledge that being in code S isn't the sole thing that defines being a good player.
On January 08 2013 09:10 RanDomFox wrote: GSL code a and s are sc2 leagues, not brood war. sure he won a lot in bw and was god there. but sc2 is different, he's won nothing, couldnt get out of code a. those are facts. He really isn't even the best brood war player to have just switched over either. Innovation, Jaedong, Baby, Rain, etc etc all performing better than him. Those are code s caliber players because they can make it into code s, flash didn't make it and thus isn't good enough.
if gsl code s represents the best 32 players in the world (maybe more now with the new group) and flash couldnt make it then i think hes probably top 50 or 60 in the world. no better though
I guess Stephano is a top 32 player because he's in Code S right?
Flash has the best record in proleague. Not Hero or Taeja, both Code S players he beat in macro games, but Flash. You don't attain the best record in PL by accident.
On January 08 2013 09:10 RanDomFox wrote: GSL code a and s are sc2 leagues, not brood war. sure he won a lot in bw and was god there. but sc2 is different, he's won nothing, couldnt get out of code a. those are facts. He really isn't even the best brood war player to have just switched over either. Innovation, Jaedong, Baby, Rain, etc etc all performing better than him. Those are code s caliber players because they can make it into code s, flash didn't make it and thus isn't good enough.
if gsl code s represents the best 32 players in the world (maybe more now with the new group) and flash couldnt make it then i think hes probably top 50 or 60 in the world. no better though
I guess Stephano is a top 32 player because he's in Code S right?
Flash has the best record in proleague. Not Hero or Taeja, both Code S players he beat in macro games, but Flash. You don't attain the best record in PL by accident.
yup stephano is better than flash. look at sc2 tournaments won. and proleague doesnt matter here since this is a flash for code s thread.
In my view, you can only call a player code S if he gets in and stays there at least a consecutive season. (meaning top8) Judging a player by looking at their play is really hard. You have to have a large sample and a certain skill level is required.
On January 08 2013 09:10 RanDomFox wrote: GSL code a and s are sc2 leagues, not brood war. sure he won a lot in bw and was god there. but sc2 is different, he's won nothing, couldnt get out of code a. those are facts. He really isn't even the best brood war player to have just switched over either. Innovation, Jaedong, Baby, Rain, etc etc all performing better than him. Those are code s caliber players because they can make it into code s, flash didn't make it and thus isn't good enough.
if gsl code s represents the best 32 players in the world (maybe more now with the new group) and flash couldnt make it then i think hes probably top 50 or 60 in the world. no better though
I guess Stephano is a top 32 player because he's in Code S right?
Flash has the best record in proleague. Not Hero or Taeja, both Code S players he beat in macro games, but Flash. You don't attain the best record in PL by accident.
yup stephano is better than flash. look at sc2 tournaments won. and proleague doesnt matter here since this is a flash for code s thread.
To be fair Flash hasn't really been in many SC2 Tournaments for several reasons so that's not really a good comparison at all lol. Stephano's had a leg up on him since the beginning. It's not going to be easy for Stephano when they come face-to-face.
On January 08 2013 09:10 RanDomFox wrote: GSL code a and s are sc2 leagues, not brood war. sure he won a lot in bw and was god there. but sc2 is different, he's won nothing, couldnt get out of code a. those are facts. He really isn't even the best brood war player to have just switched over either. Innovation, Jaedong, Baby, Rain, etc etc all performing better than him. Those are code s caliber players because they can make it into code s, flash didn't make it and thus isn't good enough.
if gsl code s represents the best 32 players in the world (maybe more now with the new group) and flash couldnt make it then i think hes probably top 50 or 60 in the world. no better though
I guess Stephano is a top 32 player because he's in Code S right?
Flash has the best record in proleague. Not Hero or Taeja, both Code S players he beat in macro games, but Flash. You don't attain the best record in PL by accident.
yup stephano is better than flash. look at sc2 tournaments won. and proleague doesnt matter here since this is a flash for code s thread.
Once again, you make absolutely no sense.
"Look at all these non-GSL tournaments Stephano has won. This makes him better than Flash." "Flash is doing well in Proleague, but that doesn't matter because it's not GSL."
Is he a Code S Player? If so, high, medium or lower tier? Or is he a Code A Player?
I'd say "Code S level" is reserved for the players that are actually in it(the recent 2-3 seasons maybe), and have been able to stay for 2 seasons (at least through U&D)
"Code S Level " is a moving target, since all the players involved in the GSL are improving. If you don't, and fall behind, you drop down to Code A and often times to Code B.
its not like there is an experience bar on the players that automatically upgrades them to Code S from Code A. even if there was, the experience requirement is constantly increasing.
Code S of early 2011 is miles behind Code S of 2012, and there are a lot of players that used to be Code S level that pale in comparison to the more recent Code S players.
So no. Flash isn't Code S level in my eyes, Hes close though (2 U/D in a row), so high Code A.
Still doesn't mean he isn't one of best players in the world.
Is he on par with players of this calibre of the best that Kespa has to offer or is he a tier below?
I think he is on par. A LOT of the kespa players are improving very fast, and catching up very quickly. I think Flash is one of them. Of course, this short burst of improvement can backfire, as other players have had more experience with awkward builds that aren't used anymore.
overhyped?
Maybe, but thats for the fans' interpretation and not an issue of Flash. With the way he is improving, along with a lot of other Kespa players, he will definitely be top-tier, as long as he constantly improves.
On January 08 2013 09:10 RanDomFox wrote: GSL code a and s are sc2 leagues, not brood war. sure he won a lot in bw and was god there. but sc2 is different, he's won nothing, couldnt get out of code a. those are facts. He really isn't even the best brood war player to have just switched over either. Innovation, Jaedong, Baby, Rain, etc etc all performing better than him. Those are code s caliber players because they can make it into code s, flash didn't make it and thus isn't good enough.
if gsl code s represents the best 32 players in the world (maybe more now with the new group) and flash couldnt make it then i think hes probably top 50 or 60 in the world. no better though
I guess Stephano is a top 32 player because he's in Code S right?
Flash has the best record in proleague. Not Hero or Taeja, both Code S players he beat in macro games, but Flash. You don't attain the best record in PL by accident.
yup stephano is better than flash. look at sc2 tournaments won. and proleague doesnt matter here since this is a flash for code s thread.
flash's pl result dont matter and stephano's non gsl results matter...hmmm
from what i've seen of flash, his got huge potential, it'll be ignorant to label him as another mediocre sc2 player, especially if the reason is "he hasnt posted any results"
Flash didn't have the best record in proleague until his all-kill, which goes to show that the performance numbers in the winners league are a little bit random. He should have lost in the first game against Revival and then he would be in the middle of the pack only.
People bring up PL, but the large majority of those players are only code A / code B caliber players. A lot of games are still flat out embarrassingly bad. Only a few of the ace players are arguably code S and only Rain, widely recognized as Kespa's best player, is solidly in that ranking (and the gap in recent achievements between him and Flash is colossal). Flash did AK EG-TL, but Revival and JYP are Code B players (even though Revival has been in good form recently), EG-TL is the 6th place team and is obviously not really used to playing in the PL culture. They've made some horrible decisions with the players they send out (JYP as your final player not once, but twice) and clearly aren't preparing for their games the same way Kespa teams do.
Also, people are bringing up Flash's CC play in BW and trying to draw parallels between his development there and his potential development in SC2, but SC2 is not BW. There are so many all-ins you will not hold going CC first. I don't care if you are Flash, once people start trying to snipe him with every bizarre all-in in the book, you're going to need to adjust.
The game quality over the last few weeks have definitely been better and its by no means ground for comparison. It's all about what have you done for me lately and several of those players are by no means Code S now, but they certainly were. You are kidding yourself if you don't think otherwise and don't mock the decision-making. You should know better that PL has always been that way when it comes down to people arguing about the coaches choices and there is rational explanations for everything (JYP made perfect sense to me) and he's really not as bad as people make him out to be. He's still has his moments. The 14cc followed him BW and SC2. He's a very stubborn player and makes his builds work. It's not so much as comparison to the games as it is to him stylistically and his personality as a player so don't cut me that sack of crap.
The game quality over the last few weeks have definitely been better and its by no means ground for comparison. It's all about what have you done for me lately and several of those players are by no means Code S now, but they certainly were. You are kidding yourself if you don't think otherwise and don't mock the decision-making. You should know better that PL has always been that way when it comes down to people arguing about the coaches choices and there is rational explanations for everything (JYP made perfect sense to me) and he's really not as bad as people make him out to be. He's still has his moments. The 14cc followed him BW and SC2. He's a very stubborn player and makes his builds work. It's not so much as comparison to the games as it is to him stylistically and his personality as a player so don't cut me that sack of crap.
To be honest, I can't understand a lot of what you are saying. I assume English is not your main language so I apologize in advance if I misinterpret anything.
Nobody cares if you were a code S player briefly months ago. The standards for code S are constantly improving and if you can't keep up, you fall out. It's that simple.
Explain to me what the rationale was for sending JYP out against Flash. PvT is not only JYP's worst match-up, his win-rate is totally abysmal (~30%). Even if he beats Flash, JYP is not the caliber of player capable of reverse all-killing KT. He has his moments, but winning 4 straight games is not about moments. It's about consistent excellence and that is the antithesis of the player JYP is. It's true that the only alternative at that point was Jaedong but then it goes back to my point about EG-TL clearly not being used to the PL culture. The PL culture is team first, individual leagues second. If you're holding Jaedong out so that he can perform better in his U&D later, then you are not playing on the same level of urgency other PL teams are playing on. The first time JYP was sent out might've made some sense... if you did not have Taeja, Hero, and Jaedong sitting on the sidelines.
But I don't need to argue against the truth. EG-TL is 6th in the PL. An AK is an AK, but it's not like EG-TL is playing well.
As for BW vs. SC2, my point still stands. You are not going to be able to make it work because the game is different.
On January 08 2013 10:59 Brian333 wrote: People bring up PL, but the large majority of those players are only code A / code B caliber players. A lot of games are still flat out embarrassingly bad. Only a few of the ace players are arguably code S and only Rain, widely recognized as Kespa's best player, is solidly in that ranking (and the gap in recent achievements between him and Flash is colossal). Flash did AK EG-TL, but Revival and JYP are Code B players (even though Revival has been in good form recently), EG-TL is the 6th place team and is obviously not really used to playing in the PL culture. They've made some horrible decisions with the players they send out (JYP as your final player not once, but twice) and clearly aren't preparing for their games the same way Kespa teams do.
Also, people are bringing up Flash's CC play in BW and trying to draw parallels between his development there and his potential development in SC2, but SC2 is not BW. There are so many all-ins you will not hold going CC first. I don't care if you are Flash, once people start trying to snipe him with every bizarre all-in in the book, you're going to need to adjust.
On what are you basing the statement that the skill gap between Flash and Rain is "colossal"? Rain's results have not been spectacular since his OSL/GSL run. He dropped out of Code A, went 3-7 in the Blizzard Cup, and has a Proleague record comparable to Flash's.
As for trying to downplay Flash's all kill: maybe JYP had a specific strategy planned to snipe a terran, but wasn't able to show it because of Flash's build? If he did make it past Flash, he was clearly their best chance at taking a victory. His PvP and PvZ are both over 60%, and KT has no strong terran player besides Flash. Jaedong had just lost 9 straight ZvP's, so it clearly made no sense to send him when KT still had Stats and Wooki. Beyond that, Flash took down Taeja, who just dominated his U&D group, and Hero, who's been performing very well as of late as well. Saying "Well, the team is in 6th, so they're clearly not very strong" doesn't mean much.
On January 08 2013 10:59 Brian333 wrote: People bring up PL, but the large majority of those players are only code A / code B caliber players. A lot of games are still flat out embarrassingly bad. Only a few of the ace players are arguably code S and only Rain, widely recognized as Kespa's best player, is solidly in that ranking (and the gap in recent achievements between him and Flash is colossal). Flash did AK EG-TL, but Revival and JYP are Code B players (even though Revival has been in good form recently), EG-TL is the 6th place team and is obviously not really used to playing in the PL culture. They've made some horrible decisions with the players they send out (JYP as your final player not once, but twice) and clearly aren't preparing for their games the same way Kespa teams do.
Also, people are bringing up Flash's CC play in BW and trying to draw parallels between his development there and his potential development in SC2, but SC2 is not BW. There are so many all-ins you will not hold going CC first. I don't care if you are Flash, once people start trying to snipe him with every bizarre all-in in the book, you're going to need to adjust.
On what are you basing the statement that the skill gap between Flash and Rain is "colossal"? Rain's results have not been spectacular since his OSL/GSL run. He dropped out of Code A, went 3-7 in the Blizzard Cup, and has a Proleague record comparable to Flash's.
As for trying to downplay Flash's all kill: maybe JYP had a specific strategy planned to snipe a terran, but wasn't able to show it because of Flash's build? If he did make it past Flash, he was clearly their best chance at taking a victory. His PvP and PvZ are both over 60%, and KT has no strong terran player besides Flash. Jaedong had just lost 9 straight ZvP's, so it clearly made no sense to send him when KT still had Stats and Wooki. Beyond that, Flash took down Taeja, who just dominated his U&D group, and Hero, who's been performing very well as of late as well. Saying "Well, the team is in 6th, so they're clearly not very strong" doesn't mean much.
I'm basing the statement on your inability to read. I clearly said the gap in their recent achievements is colossal. Are you trying to argue that it is not? RO4 GSL Code S, 1st place in Asia Finals, 3rd place in BWC, OSL Champion, and he's clearly not in some type of massive slump -- Kespa just screwed him on his Code S group and he lost a single Bo3 to drop to out of code A.
As for your point about JYP, it's all based on one very fragile key -- if JYP, a 32% PvT player that hadn't played a PvT yet in PL can make it past Flash, a 68% win rate TvP player fresh off beating Hero. Jaedong showed in his U&D group that his style of aggression isn't a bad match-up against Flash's greedy, gambling early-game and you roll the dice with the ZvP he clearly was practicing in preparation for his 3 Protoss U&D group. That's not even considering the gap in experience. JYP has been rattled at times during his PL play. Jaedong has been in must win situations how many times? Of course this is all assuming you don't mind giving Flash the chance to play Jaedong and adjust before their U&D or give his U&D Protoss opponents a few more broadcasted Jaedong vPs to consider.
As for my statement about EG-TL, they're 6th. Is that supposed to mean the team is playing well, then? What else does it mean other than that they are not playing well as a team? There is a difference between all killing a team like SKT T1 and stomping all over Samsung Khan. EG-TL is closer to one side of that spectrum than the other.
this thread is so stupid... is so funny how so many ppl has no idea of how good flash actually is..
he is code s caliber and tournaments results doesn't really matter here.. just watch how he plays in games..
decision making , macro , micro.. he is just really really really insanely good now about winning games or losing it depends just who pay more attention at that moment..
On January 08 2013 03:17 1Dhalism wrote: to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs
What about Taeja? He was fielded in the proleague, and still manage to dominate his U-D group. Which is why everyone is saying Flash might be good, but is not the best.
a) his matches where a day apart b) who knows how he wouldve performed in UnDs if he had won 4 games c) he is a lot more experienced then flash, and probably has more strategies that he is capable of executing well d) his UnD group was a lot weaker. And as far as coaches decision to field him - they picked him as 3rd player, not first.
Stop making excuses for Flash. Man. He lost. He is not a top code S player. He probably is good enough to be low Code S right now. I dont even see why there is a discussion on this. He has failed twice. I fully suspect that he will continue improving and he has some amazing games played already. He is just not at the top yet.
The point is Flash didn't exactly lost. He was in a three-way tie with MC and Jeadong. All three of them has a score of 3-2 in maps, but Flash lost due to tie-breaker.
Your saying: MC is Code-S and Flash is not? It was a bit unlucky to have such an even group. And I can bet that Flash will be the only player in Up&Down groups with 3:2 record that didn't get a Wild Card group at least.
He lost 2 games to the people that mattered in this case. That is losing. He may have won some but he did not qualify. It is as simple as that for me. This is not the first time he has failed to get in either. I expect he will get in eventually(I believe HOTS could change everything for a bit so who knows what happens with him) but he isnt now.
On January 08 2013 03:17 1Dhalism wrote: to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs
What about Taeja? He was fielded in the proleague, and still manage to dominate his U-D group. Which is why everyone is saying Flash might be good, but is not the best.
a) his matches where a day apart b) who knows how he wouldve performed in UnDs if he had won 4 games c) he is a lot more experienced then flash, and probably has more strategies that he is capable of executing well d) his UnD group was a lot weaker. And as far as coaches decision to field him - they picked him as 3rd player, not first.
Stop making excuses for Flash. Man. He lost. He is not a top code S player. He probably is good enough to be low Code S right now. I dont even see why there is a discussion on this. He has failed twice. I fully suspect that he will continue improving and he has some amazing games played already. He is just not at the top yet.
i'm not making excuses for Flash. I'm discussing what might've happened; the strategies and repercussions, the way we used to before all those "Elephant in the room" elitist hipsters came along. So lets ignore those people and just talk about the game in an unbiased way.
I think Flash is defnitly CodeS. All in his Up/Down group were very skilled, possibly the best group overall with the most possible Code S caliber players. Look at Taejas group, pretty mediocre in compareson.
Flash is not the best Starcraft 2 player, but he's already getting scary after less than half a year of playing it. I don't see how it could be called "overhype," as it's quite obvious that he's still catching up and quickly.
He ranks right where he's at in ESF terms, U&D is probably a correct level assessment for him. He's likely to improve though, he's improved extremely fast, while other KeSPA players seem on a downfall (Soulkey, Bbyong)
On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
I agree on Stephano, he's always been overhyped, but about Flash. PL matches don't stand up to standards if compared with regular Code S matches, most look like low Code A or even Code A qualifier matches (not saying PL isn't fun, it's a ton of fun to watch), which is why it's hard to assess Flash's real skill, since he keeps playing subpar players.
I have no doubts in his potential, but I'm pretty sure he's not Code S level yet.
On January 09 2013 00:57 LavaLava wrote: Flash is not the best Starcraft 2 player, but he's already getting scary after less than half a year of playing it. I don't see how it could be called "overhype," as it's quite obvious that he's still catching up and quickly.
Because some of the 'hype' was that he would win Code S in 6 months and that more than half Code S would be Kespa players. Of course, he is playing great and improving very quickly. But some of the 'hype' was just impossibly high, even for Flash.
On January 09 2013 00:57 LavaLava wrote: Flash is not the best Starcraft 2 player, but he's already getting scary after less than half a year of playing it. I don't see how it could be called "overhype," as it's quite obvious that he's still catching up and quickly.
Because some of the 'hype' was that he would win Code S in 6 months and that more than half Code S would be Kespa players. Of course, he is playing great and improving very quickly. But some of the 'hype' was just impossibly high, even for Flash.
With men this is impossible; but with Flash all things are possible.
I don't know where he is ranked, but he definitely seems like he will be code S material. He seems like a much more solid and calculated SC2 player then a lot of them, just lacking experience.
It must be stressful for Flash to be the subject of such great expectations. Is SC2 similar enough to Broodwar that skills are transferable? BW was all about macro because the interface was primitive. Macro is easier in SC2 due to the improved UI. That means its harder to win at the pro level just on the basis of macro-although you can get an advantage. Flash will be very scary when his game sense is fully developed. But, he's not quite there yet.
On January 09 2013 00:57 LavaLava wrote: Flash is not the best Starcraft 2 player, but he's already getting scary after less than half a year of playing it. I don't see how it could be called "overhype," as it's quite obvious that he's still catching up and quickly.
A lot of Kespa playes have similar or better results than him, so he's not exactly the one that should be hyped either. Flash and Kespa players have only been playing the game for half a year, sure, but it's not like they have to play patch 1.0.1 and Steppes of War either. Playing time is not really as important as people make out to be. He's catching up, but the pace is not as amazing that it is supposed to be.
On January 09 2013 01:04 vthree wrote: Because some of the 'hype' was that he would win Code S in 6 months and that more than half Code S would be Kespa players. Of course, he is playing great and improving very quickly. But some of the 'hype' was just impossibly high, even for Flash.
Oh. I hadn't realized. Nevermind, you're all probably right about this.
On January 09 2013 01:09 Savant wrote: With men this is impossible; but with Flash all things are possible.
On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
haha
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
haha
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
Are you saying the skill levels in their respective disciplines are comparable? Messi is the best in the world, Stephano is VERY far from being the best in SC2. Goddamnit I had forgotten how deluded Stephano fans can be.
On January 09 2013 00:57 LavaLava wrote: Flash is not the best Starcraft 2 player, but he's already getting scary after less than half a year of playing it. I don't see how it could be called "overhype," as it's quite obvious that he's still catching up and quickly.
Flash has the "disadvantage" of being known as BW god so some people expecting him to do way too much in way too little time aka overhyping.
On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
haha
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
Are you saying the skill levels in their respective disciplines are comparable? Messi is the best in the world, Stephano is VERY far from being the best in SC2. Goddamnit I had forgotten how deluded Stephano fans can be.
Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best??
On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none
Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right??
This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean
On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
haha
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
Are you saying the skill levels in their respective disciplines are comparable? Messi is the best in the world, Stephano is VERY far from being the best in SC2. Goddamnit I had forgotten how deluded Stephano fans can be.
Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best??
On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none
Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right??
This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean
Only one who seems to be deluded is you!
Sigh... I'm done with this.. there's no discussion with fanboys, you're all the same. Just like Elephant fanboys, or Grubby fanboys who voted him on 1st place on his U&D group by a ridiculous margin.
For the record, I do agree Stephano is a great player, but he's far from the top, he hasn't even tried the GSL, we'll see then. I don't care about earnings or such stuff, he hasn't been tested in the toughest of grounds.
He needs a more time...when he is left to play his game, he is a beast. It takes time to learn all proper reactions people can come up with it against him.
I am already a fan (and It's not carried from BW).
once again, once flash actually wins something in sc2...then this question can actually be discussed. proleague is not a benchmark of greatness, the GSL code S is (which flash couldnt even get into). People want to win code s and the gstl, the best teams arent even in proleague.
if proleague was so great, EG-TL would have put jaedong in to destroy flash like he did in the up and downs. but they dont really care about it.
im not even a stephano fan, but he has won alot of tournaments, whereas flash hasnt.
flash isnt the best, he isnt the best kespa player, he isnt even the best kespa terran.
On January 09 2013 04:04 RanDomFox wrote: once again, once flash actually wins something in sc2...then this question can actually be discussed. proleague is not a benchmark of greatness, the GSL code S is (which flash couldnt even get into). People want to win code s and the gstl, the best teams arent even in proleague.
if proleague was so great, EG-TL would have put jaedong in to destroy flash like he did in the up and downs. but they dont really care about it.
im not even a stephano fan, but he has won alot of tournaments, whereas flash hasnt.
flash isnt the best, he isnt the best kespa player, he isnt even the best kespa terran.
You got it completely wrong mate.
EG cares quite a bunch about GSL (foreign market), hence they didn't play jaedong in Proleague but let him concentrate on his GSL games.
Flash on the other hand, played Proleague in the morning and then still went on to play his Up and Down matches. KT could have easily played wooki, stats or whatever. However, they care about Proleague (Korean market) and therefore played Flash.
Please do us all a favour ... get your shit straight and learn how to spell.
On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
haha
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
Are you saying the skill levels in their respective disciplines are comparable? Messi is the best in the world, Stephano is VERY far from being the best in SC2. Goddamnit I had forgotten how deluded Stephano fans can be.
Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best??
On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none
Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right??
This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean
Only one who seems to be deluded is you!
Sigh... I'm done with this.. there's no discussion with fanboys, you're all the same. Just like Elephant fanboys, or Grubby fanboys who voted him on 1st place on his U&D group by a ridiculous margin.
For the record, I do agree Stephano is a great player, but he's far from the top, he hasn't even tried the GSL, we'll see then. I don't care about earnings or such stuff, he hasn't been tested in the toughest of grounds.
It's more you being a hater then the other being fanboys. Stephano has been among the best of the world for a long time, even code S players admit that he was really scary.
On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
haha
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
Are you saying the skill levels in their respective disciplines are comparable? Messi is the best in the world, Stephano is VERY far from being the best in SC2. Goddamnit I had forgotten how deluded Stephano fans can be.
Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best??
On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none
Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right??
This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean
Only one who seems to be deluded is you!
Sigh... I'm done with this.. there's no discussion with fanboys, you're all the same. Just like Elephant fanboys, or Grubby fanboys who voted him on 1st place on his U&D group by a ridiculous margin.
For the record, I do agree Stephano is a great player, but he's far from the top, he hasn't even tried the GSL, we'll see then. I don't care about earnings or such stuff, he hasn't been tested in the toughest of grounds.
It's more you being a hater then the other being fanboys. Stephano has been among the best of the world for a long time, even code S players admit that he was really scary.
Stephano isn't one of the best in the world. He's good, but he's no MVP or Life or Parting. At no point in his career was he as dominant as any of those three have been. And the list goes on. The fact is that Stephano has won a few foreign tournaments, generally on the strength of his ZvP, and has taken down some Code S Koreans. This doesn't make you one of the best players in the world. Being consistently a force in Code S is what makes you one of the best in the world.
Flash isnt 14 anymore, the brain just isnt as plastic at this point. I bet hell do just fine, but I highly doubt hell ever be the monster he was in bw.
Oh and the obligatory F** ALL STEPHANO RULES so I get lots of replies You kids...
On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
haha
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
Are you saying the skill levels in their respective disciplines are comparable? Messi is the best in the world, Stephano is VERY far from being the best in SC2. Goddamnit I had forgotten how deluded Stephano fans can be.
Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best??
On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none
Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right??
This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean
Only one who seems to be deluded is you!
Sigh... I'm done with this.. there's no discussion with fanboys, you're all the same. Just like Elephant fanboys, or Grubby fanboys who voted him on 1st place on his U&D group by a ridiculous margin.
For the record, I do agree Stephano is a great player, but he's far from the top, he hasn't even tried the GSL, we'll see then. I don't care about earnings or such stuff, he hasn't been tested in the toughest of grounds.
It's more you being a hater then the other being fanboys. Stephano has been among the best of the world for a long time, even code S players admit that he was really scary.
Please note I am saying he's a great player. But the poster I quoted made it seem like Stephano is something like the Messi of Starcraft 2, which he is very far from being. He's around top 20 or 30 or something like that. Great, scary player, but no top contender imo. Best foreigner by far though.
On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
haha
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
Are you saying the skill levels in their respective disciplines are comparable? Messi is the best in the world, Stephano is VERY far from being the best in SC2. Goddamnit I had forgotten how deluded Stephano fans can be.
Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best??
On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none
Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right??
This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean
Only one who seems to be deluded is you!
Remember when a few (educated) people were saying Stephano was a brilliant player way before IPL3, in fact even as far back when Stephano's only observable accomplishment was a sick ladder winrate? While most of TL's general audience rated him as some sort of irrelevant overhyped ladder hero because he didn't "prove himself" to their liking, and somebody like Idra was considered superior in every conceivable way?
Well, you're doing the same thing now.
It isn't that hard to see a player display exceptional talent and skill when you watch him play a few games of Starcraft. And there are segments of the game that Flash is absolutely dominant in right now, with his flaws mostly being a matter of inexperience and a matter of time before they're fixed.
Although he didn't make code S, I think he's definitely Code S caliber (where that means something like he's a top 10 terran) based on his non GSL results, including at MLG, and simply the overall quality of his play. He almost never misses a beat with his macro. I can watch his games just to watch him macro. He's pretty amazing. I'd wager lots of money he'll be a top 3 terran within 6 months.
On January 09 2013 04:04 RanDomFox wrote: once again, once flash actually wins something in sc2...then this question can actually be discussed. proleague is not a benchmark of greatness, the GSL code S is (which flash couldnt even get into). People want to win code s and the gstl, the best teams arent even in proleague.
if proleague was so great, EG-TL would have put jaedong in to destroy flash like he did in the up and downs. but they dont really care about it.
im not even a stephano fan, but he has won alot of tournaments, whereas flash hasnt.
flash isnt the best, he isnt the best kespa player, he isnt even the best kespa terran.
I laughed so hard reading this. How old are you? 12? Do you really believe that they don´t care about the most expressive team championship? They did a lot of propaganda, invest money and time sending players to korea for nothing? They sent the best lineup taeja+hero+revival (yes at the moment they are better than jaedong imo) and they don´t care? lol Proleague has an incredible visibility to a team man.
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
Are you saying the skill levels in their respective disciplines are comparable? Messi is the best in the world, Stephano is VERY far from being the best in SC2. Goddamnit I had forgotten how deluded Stephano fans can be.
Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best??
On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none
Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right??
This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean
Only one who seems to be deluded is you!
Stephano for sure is one of the (right now, I would argue the best foreigner) and certainly a force to be reckoned with. However, if you are arguing that he is the best in the world, I'm going to disagree. He could probably smash his way into the top-20-or-so, but there are a multitude of players who can consistently beat him, and/or have GSL titles to their names. The thing is, even if Stephano can dominate Code A / Code S Koreans on a semi-regular basis, he'll never have truly proven himself without actually having competed in Code S.
At least, that's how I feel, and I think that's the general consensus. Same thing goes for Flash; eventually, if he doesn't win Code S (or OSL if that comes back and shapes up), he'll never be accepted as the best in the world. That's how this scene/community works.
As for the "He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none", Life won 2 GSLs and an MLG while going to school - can Stephano say that?
On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
haha
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
Are you saying the skill levels in their respective disciplines are comparable? Messi is the best in the world, Stephano is VERY far from being the best in SC2. Goddamnit I had forgotten how deluded Stephano fans can be.
Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best??
On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none
Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right??
This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean
Only one who seems to be deluded is you!
Sigh... I'm done with this.. there's no discussion with fanboys, you're all the same. Just like Elephant fanboys, or Grubby fanboys who voted him on 1st place on his U&D group by a ridiculous margin.
For the record, I do agree Stephano is a great player, but he's far from the top, he hasn't even tried the GSL, we'll see then. I don't care about earnings or such stuff, he hasn't been tested in the toughest of grounds.
It's more you being a hater then the other being fanboys. Stephano has been among the best of the world for a long time, even code S players admit that he was really scary.
Stephano isn't one of the best in the world. He's good, but he's no MVP or Life or Parting. At no point in his career was he as dominant as any of those three have been. And the list goes on. The fact is that Stephano has won a few foreign tournaments, generally on the strength of his ZvP, and has taken down some Code S Koreans. This doesn't make you one of the best players in the world. Being consistently a force in Code S is what makes you one of the best in the world.
Actually until recently he was pretty much the most consistent and it could be argued best zerg. He was #1 in International Elo for a good portion of 2012. Only recently he's basically stopped practicing and his results have finally started to suffer. Stephano had high placements (4th or better) in almost every tournament he entered in the first three quarters of 2012 except for a couple MLGs. Not only was his Elo #1 overall in International tournaments for a good bit of 2012 but his Elo, at around the time he switched to EG, was #1 overall in vP and vT (for all three races). He was an extremely dominant player. He also has been extremely influential, basically showing Korea that infestors > mutas and infestor - blord could not be beaten. Parting has been coming on strong of late, but to compare Parting prior to his win at the BWC with Stephano would be an insult to Stephano rather than the other way around. Life has surpassed Stephano recently and MVP's accomplishments surpass everyone else's not just Stephano's so there's no shame in not measuring up to the bar MVP set.
Right now Stephano is probably a top 5-10 zerg and he doesn't practice. Once he buckles down he'll be back to being a top 3 zerg. If he finds some serious motivation there's no reason he can't be the best Zerg in the world. He's certainly the most talented.
On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
haha
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
Are you saying the skill levels in their respective disciplines are comparable? Messi is the best in the world, Stephano is VERY far from being the best in SC2. Goddamnit I had forgotten how deluded Stephano fans can be.
Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best??
On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none
Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right??
This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean
Only one who seems to be deluded is you!
Remember when a few (educated) people were saying Stephano was a brilliant player way before IPL3, in fact even as far back when Stephano's only observable accomplishment was a sick ladder winrate? While most of TL's general audience rated him as some sort of irrelevant overhyped ladder hero because he didn't "prove himself" to their liking, and somebody like Idra was considered superior in every conceivable way?
Well, you're doing the same thing now.
It isn't that hard to see a player display exceptional talent and skill when you watch him play a few games of Starcraft. And there are segments of the game that Flash is absolutely dominant in right now, with his flaws mostly being a matter of inexperience and a matter of time before they're fixed.
oh please don't use logic. Flash is mediocore because he lost 2 games in the qualification. Who cares about variance. 2 games is definitely enough of a proof.
Also his tvt is really awfull because he lost to bogus, fantasy and baby. He also doesn't get the strategical concept of starcraft 2 yet because he is still kinda new.
Sarcasm off.
Well, too many people on this thread just makes these kind of comments, which clearly demonstrates they have no idea what htey are talking about. If you actually understand the game you can clearly see when a player is fucking good and when is "just good". Flash is fucking good, and short-results doesn't matter when we want to rate players.
Sure, if you are a bronze player, you will do best by using results when rating players, but your guess will be much worse than players who can actually idenfity great players by looking at how they play. (and yeh i remember watching MVP play and LOSE to Zenio in gsl season 2, and even back then I clearly identified MVP as a far superior player to any other terrans).
On January 08 2013 10:11 RanDomFox wrote: when flash wins something, perhaps post this thread again lol
the only true way to compare his vs other players is quantitative results. flash has none.
2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
haha
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
Are you saying the skill levels in their respective disciplines are comparable? Messi is the best in the world, Stephano is VERY far from being the best in SC2. Goddamnit I had forgotten how deluded Stephano fans can be.
Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best??
On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none
Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right??
This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean
Only one who seems to be deluded is you!
Sigh... I'm done with this.. there's no discussion with fanboys, you're all the same. Just like Elephant fanboys, or Grubby fanboys who voted him on 1st place on his U&D group by a ridiculous margin.
For the record, I do agree Stephano is a great player, but he's far from the top, he hasn't even tried the GSL, we'll see then. I don't care about earnings or such stuff, he hasn't been tested in the toughest of grounds.
It's more you being a hater then the other being fanboys. Stephano has been among the best of the world for a long time, even code S players admit that he was really scary.
Stephano isn't one of the best in the world. He's good, but he's no MVP or Life or Parting. At no point in his career was he as dominant as any of those three have been. And the list goes on. The fact is that Stephano has won a few foreign tournaments, generally on the strength of his ZvP, and has taken down some Code S Koreans. This doesn't make you one of the best players in the world. Being consistently a force in Code S is what makes you one of the best in the world.
Actually until recently he was pretty much the most consistent and it could be argued best zerg. He was #1 in International Elo for a good portion of 2012. Only recently he's basically stopped practicing and his results have finally started to suffer. Stephano had high placements (4th or better) in almost every tournament he entered in the first three quarters of 2012 except for a couple MLGs. Not only was his Elo #1 overall in International tournaments for a good bit of 2012 but his Elo, at around the time he switched to EG, was #1 overall in vP and vT (for all three races). He was an extremely dominant player. He also has been extremely influential, basically showing Korea that infestors > mutas and infestor - blord could not be beaten. Parting has been coming on strong of late, but to compare Parting prior to his win at the BWC with Stephano would be an insult to Stephano rather than the other way around. Life has surpassed Stephano recently and MVP's accomplishments surpass everyone else's not just Stephano's so there's no shame in not measuring up to the bar MVP set.
Right now Stephano is probably a top 5-10 zerg and he doesn't practice. Once he buckles down he'll be back to being a top 3 zerg. If he finds some serious motivation there's no reason he can't be the best Zerg in the world. He's certainly the most talented.
International ELO is a bit unfair when you consider that most of the Code S players don't even come overseas to play. Parting was a Ro4 GSL player before winning BWC. He was damn good. I don't think Stephano's achievements in foreign tournies are any more impressive than coming 3/4th in the GSL. I'm just trying to say here that nothing Stephano ever achieved is equivalent to a GSL title. Nothing is even close. He won a few tournaments bulldozing his way through mostly foreigners and, yes, some top tier Koreans, but that's not the same as playing in a tournament where every opponent is a top tier Korean. Until Stephano does that, calling him one of the best is just baseless.
I think we all agree that Flash has the potential to be one of the greatest SC2 players out there, and that only time will tell whether he reaches that point or not. Truth be told though, Flash is probably one of the only reasons I keep watching SC2 so I really hope he does reach that level at some point and dominate as much in SC2 as in BW.
Still just too early too tell... I know everyone is really excited that he's finally here and he's racking up wins but it's simply unfair to place any judgements on him based on his legendary BW merit.
The fact of the matter is that he IS winning though (beating current code S players and past GSL champions alike) and that without a doubt you can say that he hasn't plateaued yet.
I saw him ALLKILL EG-TL the other night which arguably has the best sc2 players in proleague. He flattened Taeja. He's pretty damn good, people.
He is getting better at a dizzying pace. Sadly, he will become dominant and get all us Terrans fucked over again because of blizzard nerfs. Basically a repeat of MVP, except even worse. The marine will probably have 30 HP by the time Flash is done roasting everybody.
On January 08 2013 10:33 sc14s wrote: [quote] 2 up& downs in a row =/= results? seems like something to me.
Apparently, Stephano beating foreigners and Code B Koreans, then losing to Bomber and winning LSC 2 is more impressive than the best record in PL.
haha
MKP,MMA,MVP,MC,Squirtle,Parting,Life,DRG,Hero,Ryung and many many many more. Code B Koreans ok buddy haha?? Comparing Stephano record in sc2 to Flash record is hilarious. Its like comparing Messi to some baseball superstar who decide he wanted to switch to soccer.
Are you saying the skill levels in their respective disciplines are comparable? Messi is the best in the world, Stephano is VERY far from being the best in SC2. Goddamnit I had forgotten how deluded Stephano fans can be.
Nice insults buddy. Very far from being the best??
On top of that no other players has done more for the Zerg race. He is an amazing innovator and you know what? He did that all by himself without any team house or coach. How many Korean players can say that? Hint the answer is none
Stephano is one of the best in the world and has been for a very long time problem is he isn't Korean right??
This thread so funny Flash done nothing at all in sc2 but somehow he is the best there is. But I forgot he is Korean
Only one who seems to be deluded is you!
Sigh... I'm done with this.. there's no discussion with fanboys, you're all the same. Just like Elephant fanboys, or Grubby fanboys who voted him on 1st place on his U&D group by a ridiculous margin.
For the record, I do agree Stephano is a great player, but he's far from the top, he hasn't even tried the GSL, we'll see then. I don't care about earnings or such stuff, he hasn't been tested in the toughest of grounds.
It's more you being a hater then the other being fanboys. Stephano has been among the best of the world for a long time, even code S players admit that he was really scary.
Stephano isn't one of the best in the world. He's good, but he's no MVP or Life or Parting. At no point in his career was he as dominant as any of those three have been. And the list goes on. The fact is that Stephano has won a few foreign tournaments, generally on the strength of his ZvP, and has taken down some Code S Koreans. This doesn't make you one of the best players in the world. Being consistently a force in Code S is what makes you one of the best in the world.
Actually until recently he was pretty much the most consistent and it could be argued best zerg. He was #1 in International Elo for a good portion of 2012. Only recently he's basically stopped practicing and his results have finally started to suffer. Stephano had high placements (4th or better) in almost every tournament he entered in the first three quarters of 2012 except for a couple MLGs. Not only was his Elo #1 overall in International tournaments for a good bit of 2012 but his Elo, at around the time he switched to EG, was #1 overall in vP and vT (for all three races). He was an extremely dominant player. He also has been extremely influential, basically showing Korea that infestors > mutas and infestor - blord could not be beaten. Parting has been coming on strong of late, but to compare Parting prior to his win at the BWC with Stephano would be an insult to Stephano rather than the other way around. Life has surpassed Stephano recently and MVP's accomplishments surpass everyone else's not just Stephano's so there's no shame in not measuring up to the bar MVP set.
Right now Stephano is probably a top 5-10 zerg and he doesn't practice. Once he buckles down he'll be back to being a top 3 zerg. If he finds some serious motivation there's no reason he can't be the best Zerg in the world. He's certainly the most talented.
International ELO is a bit unfair when you consider that most of the Code S players don't even come overseas to play. Parting was a Ro4 GSL player before winning BWC. He was damn good. I don't think Stephano's achievements in foreign tournies are any more impressive than coming 3/4th in the GSL. I'm just trying to say here that nothing Stephano ever achieved is equivalent to a GSL title. Nothing is even close. He won a few tournaments bulldozing his way through mostly foreigners and, yes, some top tier Koreans, but that's not the same as playing in a tournament where every opponent is a top tier Korean. Until Stephano does that, calling him one of the best is just baseless.
Other than the KESPA players which Code S players don't have at least 100 games in the TLPD? There may be one or two -- maybe Vampire (from last season). Elo isn't perfect for a variety of reasons but it's as objective as it gets and Elo tells me Stephano is one of the best, which is confirmed by his tournament winnings and the list of players he's beaten. If only GSL results will sway you though, there's not much sense debating the question further.
And since this thread is about Flash and I'm getting off topic, I'll add that Flash will be a god of SC2 soon enough and that he's definitely Code S caliber at the moment despite his GSL results.
On January 09 2013 04:04 RanDomFox wrote: once again, once flash actually wins something in sc2...then this question can actually be discussed. proleague is not a benchmark of greatness, the GSL code S is (which flash couldnt even get into). People want to win code s and the gstl, the best teams arent even in proleague.
if proleague was so great, EG-TL would have put jaedong in to destroy flash like he did in the up and downs. but they dont really care about it.
im not even a stephano fan, but he has won alot of tournaments, whereas flash hasnt.
flash isnt the best, he isnt the best kespa player, he isnt even the best kespa terran.
You got it completely wrong mate.
EG cares quite a bunch about GSL (foreign market), hence they didn't play jaedong in Proleague but let him concentrate on his GSL games.
Flash on the other hand, played Proleague in the morning and then still went on to play his Up and Down matches. KT could have easily played wooki, stats or whatever. However, they care about Proleague (Korean market) and therefore played Flash.
Please do us all a favour ... get your shit straight and learn how to spell.
touchy, touchy...perhaps a re-read of my post to better understand what I was saying. Let me spell it out for you mate, EG-TL cares more about the GSL than proleague. my proof is saving jaedong for his up and downs rather than having him play in proleague and roll right over flash like he did in the up and downs.
it doesn't matter that KT Rolster cares more about proleague, my point was that Code S is still the benchmark for greatness in the sc2 world at the moment. Proleague is good, but if a Code A player can top it, then well...it's not that good.
please continue to do me a favor with straightening my "shit" out and correcting my spelling :D
Flash strenghts seems to be almost the same as Mvp's strengths, but with better potential and no neck pain. I watched some of his Up&Down games as well as a few proleague games. He doesn't seem to have insane micro (still very good), but a very good tactical play as well as good mental (he was often in spots you don't want to be in when you are terran) taking good decisions for the situations he is in.
His strategical play however shows a lack of sc2 experience and he isn't able to fully use mindgames (vs both MC and YoDa particularly, even though he won vs YoDa), resulting in disappointings losses (the no bunker vs MC). His macro is very good but that has to be expected given his playstyle and BW background. (he doesn't rely super heavily on multitask like BaBy and sometimes Fantasy seems to do)
His rate of progression is really good because he is already among the best KesPA players, and looked good vs Life who has insane ZvT.
So I think he is scary good but not yet enough to be able to win championships with the big guns (the likes of Leenock, Life etc) back to back. That was to be expected given how late he started playing sc2 fully.
He has the code S level for sure (around 50 people have it honestly) but we will have to wait HotS to see him dominate, and I don't think it will be for an extended period of time given the number of really good players that will be there.
On January 09 2013 07:24 Poopi wrote: Flash strenghts seems to be almost the same as Mvp's strengths, but with better potential and no neck pain. I watched some of his Up&Down games as well as a few proleague games. He doesn't seem to have insane micro (still very good), but a very good tactical play as well as good mental (he was often in spots you don't want to be in when you are terran) taking good decisions for the situations he is in.
His strategical play however shows a lack of sc2 experience and he isn't able to fully use mindgames (vs both MC and YoDa particularly, even though he won vs YoDa), resulting in disappointings losses (the no bunker vs MC). His macro is very good but that has to be expected given his playstyle and BW background. (he doesn't rely super heavily on multitask like BaBy and sometimes Fantasy seems to do)
His rate of progression is really good because he is already among the best KesPA players, and looked good vs Life who has insane ZvT.
So I think he is scary good but not yet enough to be able to win championships with the big guns (the likes of Leenock, Life etc) back to back. That was to be expected given how late he started playing sc2 fully.
He has the code S level for sure (around 50 people have it honestly) but we will have to wait HotS to see him dominate, and I don't think it will be for an extended period of time given the number of really good players that will be there.
I hate this mindgame theory. Starcraft isn't poker and too often people emphasize too much value on this concept. Sure the no bunker was a mistake, but I am sure other players have been cutting corners/making mistakes from time to time, where we haven't neccesarily concluded that they lacked a strategical understanding of the game.
At this point (given how much he practices) he probably has a pretty decent strategical understanding, and he probably knows how to play a safe early game if he was told to do that.
IF he really lacks something strategical, then it would be something "advanced" he didn't get, and then 99% of TL's posters wouldn't be able to identifiy it. (so basically if you are plat/diamond/ or even master player) you probably shouldn't argue that Flash has strategical weakness's unless you havde made a very indepth analysis of his play and compared it to the GSL terrans.
So to sum up; this strategical thing is basically a result of confirmation basis where you assume that he has to have a lack of game understanding as he has "only" played the game for 9 months.
The general opinion seem to be: - his progression is out of this world, improving at an exponential rate - he is most likely to become one of the best players of sc2 in the near future because of his potential/bw mechanics and his work ethic - he's a key factor in the growth of e-sports as there are many who simply watch sc2 to watch him play - his games are always fun to watch - he IS among one of the top Kespa players and right on par with Bogus Fantasy and Soulkey - he hasn't shown that strong as results as Rain did but he will in the future - His level of play: undecided but he's not an average joe player. He is a player that has skills at the moment that merits from him being: "mid-top Code S to top Code A" level. It is hard to give a precise measurement because of the amount of good players nwoadays and skill wise theyre all similar
- Flash fans vs Stephano fans - Proleague is not up to par with GSL. (which is in my opinion: a very stupid comment to make because Proleague is a League; whereas GSL is a tournament. GSL is a tournament like the OSL where they filter the good from the bad; and the top-tier from the good crop; the Proleague does not have such option.) However, If you want to compare Proleague with eSF league, compare it to GSTL. If you want to compare GSL to a Kespa tournament; compare it to OSL. Simple. Stop comparing apples to oranges. - he has been given a large burden/load because of his bw accomplishments; however does not warrant him being overhyped. He hasnt lived up to expectations but time will tell if he lives up to what we originally expected of him - Code S is such a vague term these days..as players from Code A can take sets from Code S because of such the close skillgap and large player base; that its hard to make a distinction between the two.
And finally.... the unrelated EG-TL issue that was briefly debated on here: - you can't automatically assume "team X" takes a "league Y" more/less seriously than "tournament z" because of their decisions. EG-TL fielded a powerful/capable team to take down Flash; they failed. They saved JD from the Up/Downs. Those are facts. KT sent out Flash, he all-killed. and he participated in the Up/Downs shortly after and lost. Those are the only factual statements you can make.
It is impossible (unless you specifically ask the EG-TL coach and the EG gaming upper management), to decipher what they emphasize more on.
So here's a new questions that might light a fire, pitchforks might be sent out and it may start a riot but: Who has the highest ceiling? Stephano or Flash? Does Flash possess something that Stephano likely will not be able to obtain? Does Stephano possess something that Flash likely will not be able to obtain?
On January 09 2013 07:24 Poopi wrote: Flash strenghts seems to be almost the same as Mvp's strengths, but with better potential and no neck pain. I watched some of his Up&Down games as well as a few proleague games. He doesn't seem to have insane micro (still very good), but a very good tactical play as well as good mental (he was often in spots you don't want to be in when you are terran) taking good decisions for the situations he is in.
His strategical play however shows a lack of sc2 experience and he isn't able to fully use mindgames (vs both MC and YoDa particularly, even though he won vs YoDa), resulting in disappointings losses (the no bunker vs MC). His macro is very good but that has to be expected given his playstyle and BW background. (he doesn't rely super heavily on multitask like BaBy and sometimes Fantasy seems to do)
His rate of progression is really good because he is already among the best KesPA players, and looked good vs Life who has insane ZvT.
So I think he is scary good but not yet enough to be able to win championships with the big guns (the likes of Leenock, Life etc) back to back. That was to be expected given how late he started playing sc2 fully.
He has the code S level for sure (around 50 people have it honestly) but we will have to wait HotS to see him dominate, and I don't think it will be for an extended period of time given the number of really good players that will be there.
I hate this mindgame theory. Starcraft isn't poker and too often people emphasize too much value on this concept. Sure the no bunker was a mistake, but I am sure other players have been cutting corners/making mistakes from time to time, where we haven't neccesarily concluded that they lacked a strategical understanding of the game.
At this point (given how much he practices) he probably has a pretty decent strategical understanding, and he probably knows how to play a safe early game if he was told to do that.
IF he really lacks something strategical, then it would be something "advanced" he didn't get, and then 99% of TL's posters wouldn't be able to identifiy it. (so basically if you are plat/diamond/ or even master player) you probably shouldn't argue that Flash has strategical weakness's unless you havde made a very indepth analysis of his play and compared it to the GSL terrans.
So to sum up; this strategical thing is basically a result of confirmation basis where you assume that he has to have a lack of game understanding as he has "only" played the game for 9 months.
Of course it's something advanced he didn't get, and I never said I knew what it was. The no bunker happened for a reason and only a few people knows it, mainly his team and he. I didn't say he was like "trash" strategically-wise, just that his play shows a lack of experience.
By the way, no mindgames really? Then explain why did he do a proxy-reaper build vs Yoda, something that we never see?
- Proleague is not up to par with GSL. (which is in my opinion: a very stupid comment to make because Proleague is a League; whereas GSL is a tournament. Whereas GSL is a tournament like the OSL where they filter the good from the bad; and the top-tier from the good crop; the Proleague does not have such option.)
I agree.
Thanks for summarizing the discussion like this. Makes this thread so much better and the new questions prevent the same kind of comments over and over again (which is what I feared for this thread). Thanks for the maintenance.
Does Flash possess something that Stephano likely will not be able to obtain? Does Stephano possess something that Flash likely will not be able to obtain?
They both have a completely different attitude towards the game in my opinion and a totally different personality. I kind of think Stephano's kind of airiness is what makes him strong. For Flash it is the opposite I think. His work ethics and mechanics were mentioned in the discussion earlier which I think is fitting. His strength comes from seriousness as opposed to airiness.
On January 09 2013 08:43 LighT. wrote: So here's a new questions that might light a fire, pitchforks might be sent out and it may start a riot but: Who has the highest ceiling? Stephano or Flash? Does Flash possess something that Stephano likely will not be able to obtain? Does Stephano possess something that Flash likely will not be able to obtain?
i think its amazing what stephano has done with so little in terms of environment. in terms of work ethics and attitude, flash will continue to improve because of this and i'm sure the same with stephano. it depends on the players but i cant help but think flash is more hungry for glory because 1) live up to his name/standards 2) represent the team with glory. the two thing is something flash has been doing for so so many years, in comparison stephano just entered the team scene.
Does Flash possess something that Stephano likely will not be able to obtain? Does Stephano possess something that Flash likely will not be able to obtain?
Flash lives Starcraft. That is what he does. In interviews, he's talked about how even when he's showering or doing something else, he's still thinking about it and how to improve. Added to the fact that he's basically a Starcraft prodigy, in the long run, Stephano simply can't compete with limited training time and commitment. This is why Flash will become the best player in the world, while Stephano is the best foreigner.
He was the greatest player in the history of starcraft broodwar - arguably the most difficult, highest skill ceiling, with the greatest competition of any game ever. He was able to pass courage after practicing starcraft for a few months. He has won more titles than anyone in starcraft. He has some of the greatest mechanics, and more importantly, some of the greatest analytical ability / decision making in starcraft broodwar while maintaining perfect macro and great micro.
But, most importantly, Flash has one of the best work ethics / mindsets, and can really learn and analyze better than almost anyone. This alone will make him persevere in SC2, as long as he has the drive.
On January 09 2013 04:04 RanDomFox wrote: once again, once flash actually wins something in sc2...then this question can actually be discussed. proleague is not a benchmark of greatness, the GSL code S is (which flash couldnt even get into). People want to win code s and the gstl, the best teams arent even in proleague.
if proleague was so great, EG-TL would have put jaedong in to destroy flash like he did in the up and downs. but they dont really care about it.
im not even a stephano fan, but he has won alot of tournaments, whereas flash hasnt.
flash isnt the best, he isnt the best kespa player, he isnt even the best kespa terran.
You got it completely wrong mate.
EG cares quite a bunch about GSL (foreign market), hence they didn't play jaedong in Proleague but let him concentrate on his GSL games.
Flash on the other hand, played Proleague in the morning and then still went on to play his Up and Down matches. KT could have easily played wooki, stats or whatever. However, they care about Proleague (Korean market) and therefore played Flash.
Please do us all a favour ... get your shit straight and learn how to spell.
touchy, touchy...perhaps a re-read of my post to better understand what I was saying. Let me spell it out for you mate, EG-TL cares more about the GSL than proleague. my proof is saving jaedong for his up and downs rather than having him play in proleague and roll right over flash like he did in the up and downs.
it doesn't matter that KT Rolster cares more about proleague, my point was that Code S is still the benchmark for greatness in the sc2 world at the moment. Proleague is good, but if a Code A player can top it, then well...it's not that good.
please continue to do me a favor with straightening my "shit" out and correcting my spelling :D
Proleague is the most famous and prestigious league in the world. Just because you speculate that they didn't play Jaedong in Proleague to save his strategy for his U&D matches doesn't mean that it's true. They clearly thought that JYP had a better chance of getting a victory for the team than Jaedong. While JYP has a reputation for bad PvT, his PvZ and PvP are both over 60%, and he's obviously been working hard on his PvT, as evidenced by the fact that he took down Fantasy yesterday.
On the other hand, Jaedong had lost 9 straight ZvP's before that day, and KT still had Stats and Wooki to send out. It's a coaching decision, not a conspiracy theory. Incidentally, Flash's game against Jaedong was on Cloud Kingdom, whereas his game against JYP was on Bifrost. Just because Jaedong's strategy worked on Cloud Kingdom doesn't mean that it would work on a completely different map.
You know why he's going to be the best. Well, allow me to tell you: It's because he's motha#$^$'ing Flash. And if you think that's tautological reasoning (circular reasoning), then I ask you, nigh, command you to look up exactly what the name Flash means...
On January 09 2013 08:43 LighT. wrote: So here's a new questions that might light a fire, pitchforks might be sent out and it may start a riot but: Who has the highest ceiling? Stephano or Flash?
Thats actually a very tough question. I will probably upset a lot of people, but I will say Stephano. Stephano could reach higher skill imo, maybe even highest in the world. BUT he never will. He just doesnt have the drive and work rate. He doesnt love the game, he doesnt breath and live Starcraft. He is in it for the money, he said it himself and he wont reach his highest possible skill without being fully devoted (again I say, imo).
On January 09 2013 08:43 LighT. wrote:Does Flash possess something that Stephano likely will not be able to obtain?
Work ethic, drive to be the best, love for Starcraft...
On January 09 2013 08:43 LighT. wrote:Does Stephano possess something that Flash likely will not be able to obtain?
As could be seen above, I THINK Stephano has more pure talent. But as I said, he will never reach his full potential, so it doesnt really matter.
As Rain said - there are talented people. There are people who love their job. And then there are talented people who love their job. And thats Flash and several others. Not Stephano though.
(and now I am gonna hide into the corner, because I probably upset both - Stephano and Flash fanboys -.-)
Flash puts more time and effort in than Stephano. In a game that rewards time and effort, Flash obviously has the higher ceiling. Also, people forget but as of late Stephano barely has a 50% win rate.
Does Flash possess something that Stephano likely will not be able to obtain?
A work ethic.
Does Stephano possess something that Flash likely will not be able to obtain?
On January 09 2013 10:37 Ammanas wrote: Thats actually a very tough question. I will probably upset a lot of people, but I will say Stephano. Stephano could reach higher skill imo, maybe even highest in the world. BUT he never will. He just doesnt have the drive and work rate.
Actually this is a good point. It's obvious Stephano has great talent but his laissez-faire attitude will never get him to where he could be if he was more serious.
In actuality I don't think comparing Stepano to Flash is the relevant comparison. I'd compare Flash to Life. Here you have someone so young, so dominating (already) and in an environment that takes the game seriously, and I gotta think Life will be the new dominating player for years to come rivaling what Flash or Jaedong did in BW. Life's career path already mirrors that of Flash when he started. The upside on Life I think is much higher than even Flash.
Flash is one of the best if not the best sc2 players of all time. Just watch his games if you don't believe me. He's also probably one of the only terrans that actually knows how to play. Only reason he didn't get into code S was bad luck
yes, let us all speculate into the never ending abyss. this is getting kinda tiring to read, but good job to OP though for sort of "refreshing" the thread every now and then
The game quality over the last few weeks have definitely been better and its by no means ground for comparison. It's all about what have you done for me lately and several of those players are by no means Code S now, but they certainly were. You are kidding yourself if you don't think otherwise and don't mock the decision-making. You should know better that PL has always been that way when it comes down to people arguing about the coaches choices and there is rational explanations for everything (JYP made perfect sense to me) and he's really not as bad as people make him out to be. He's still has his moments. The 14cc followed him BW and SC2. He's a very stubborn player and makes his builds work. It's not so much as comparison to the games as it is to him stylistically and his personality as a player so don't cut me that sack of crap.
To be honest, I can't understand a lot of what you are saying. I assume English is not your main language so I apologize in advance if I misinterpret anything.
Nobody cares if you were a code S player briefly months ago. The standards for code S are constantly improving and if you can't keep up, you fall out. It's that simple.
Explain to me what the rationale was for sending JYP out against Flash. PvT is not only JYP's worst match-up, his win-rate is totally abysmal (~30%). Even if he beats Flash, JYP is not the caliber of player capable of reverse all-killing KT. He has his moments, but winning 4 straight games is not about moments. It's about consistent excellence and that is the antithesis of the player JYP is. It's true that the only alternative at that point was Jaedong but then it goes back to my point about EG-TL clearly not being used to the PL culture. The PL culture is team first, individual leagues second. If you're holding Jaedong out so that he can perform better in his U&D later, then you are not playing on the same level of urgency other PL teams are playing on. The first time JYP was sent out might've made some sense... if you did not have Taeja, Hero, and Jaedong sitting on the sidelines.
But I don't need to argue against the truth. EG-TL is 6th in the PL. An AK is an AK, but it's not like EG-TL is playing well.
As for BW vs. SC2, my point still stands. You are not going to be able to make it work because the game is different.
It's odd because I had some other dude in a hockey thread ask me the same thing and it's as if we're on totally different wavelengths. No, English is my first language. I'm an actual writer, so I find it weird that someone would ask me this question twice in one week. o-O
Now, let's get to the heart of the argument. What the heck you think I just said? Did I not just say it's all about, "what have you done for me lately?" It's as if you guys hear only what you want to hear! Well no crap Sherlock. Players are always improving. This isn't anything new.
Let's see. Why would I send my team captain who was 5-3 in the first round and not send out JD? Jaedong would have to win 4 hard fought matches in a row to bring it back and he has Up & Down for Code S in a few hours. Common sense says to save him for later to do his baneling bust. This is by no means throwing in the towel, but to think JD could win 4-0 against a team running as hot at KT? It's wishful thinking. Remember how we both said in this business it's all about what have you done for me lately? Well, KT is the hottest team in PL atm. There's no denying it. It's all about setting your priorities and JYP was by no means a bad choice when you look at the whole picture. There's a logical explanation for it. JYP was in just as good position as JD who many consider a zvz specialist. I did like what he did in IPTL but come on man. Get off the high horse in all honesty coach Park's decision was by no means a poor one. They would have to go through Flash just to get to Stats, Wooki, Action, etc. No matter what it's a tough feat and KT has many more weapons in their arsenal. You would need lady luck regardless to pull off the reverse-kill and both players have weak match-ups regardless.
I wasn't comparing the two games at all man. What I said was Flash has a certain play style and you can see how it translates in his play regardless of the game. Once again we're not comparing games. We're looking at certain characteristics of players. Let's look at this from entirely different player. Take JulyZerg for example. I want you to try and describe his play style in one or two sentences. If you were to ask me about how July likes to play Starcraft (regardless of game) I'd say he has a strong early to mid-game where he tries to pound you with his ruthless aggression. This says a lot about the type of player JulyZerg is stylistically. It's a character trait. Now let's look at what he did in BW and what he did in SC2. Did his style change from RTS games? The answer is a resounding no. He's very much the same JulyZerg we knew from Pirates of Space in BW. See, it has more to do with the personality and stylistic play of a player than it has to do with the game. Are we on the same wavelength now?
The game quality over the last few weeks have definitely been better and its by no means ground for comparison. It's all about what have you done for me lately and several of those players are by no means Code S now, but they certainly were. You are kidding yourself if you don't think otherwise and don't mock the decision-making. You should know better that PL has always been that way when it comes down to people arguing about the coaches choices and there is rational explanations for everything (JYP made perfect sense to me) and he's really not as bad as people make him out to be. He's still has his moments. The 14cc followed him BW and SC2. He's a very stubborn player and makes his builds work. It's not so much as comparison to the games as it is to him stylistically and his personality as a player so don't cut me that sack of crap.
To be honest, I can't understand a lot of what you are saying. I assume English is not your main language so I apologize in advance if I misinterpret anything.
Nobody cares if you were a code S player briefly months ago. The standards for code S are constantly improving and if you can't keep up, you fall out. It's that simple.
Explain to me what the rationale was for sending JYP out against Flash. PvT is not only JYP's worst match-up, his win-rate is totally abysmal (~30%). Even if he beats Flash, JYP is not the caliber of player capable of reverse all-killing KT. He has his moments, but winning 4 straight games is not about moments. It's about consistent excellence and that is the antithesis of the player JYP is. It's true that the only alternative at that point was Jaedong but then it goes back to my point about EG-TL clearly not being used to the PL culture. The PL culture is team first, individual leagues second. If you're holding Jaedong out so that he can perform better in his U&D later, then you are not playing on the same level of urgency other PL teams are playing on. The first time JYP was sent out might've made some sense... if you did not have Taeja, Hero, and Jaedong sitting on the sidelines.
But I don't need to argue against the truth. EG-TL is 6th in the PL. An AK is an AK, but it's not like EG-TL is playing well.
As for BW vs. SC2, my point still stands. You are not going to be able to make it work because the game is different.
Actually there's plenty of reasons of why you would send out JYP. You aren't fully looking at the picture, and that's the main problem with your argument.
Yes. JYP has an abysmal PvT. Good point. And Flash is a terran. However, let's say JYP beats Flash even with an abysmal rate, who is KT going to send out? Their core players of course. Action, Crazy-hydra, Wooki, Stats. 2Protoss, 2 Zergs. Both matchups JYP is more than capable of holding.
Jaedong has a better win rate in ZvT than JYP @ 37.5% going back to September (prior to playing Yoda/Flash in Up/DOwns). Okay...but if he beats Flash, Jaedong has a godly ZvZ in SC2; Action/Crazy-hydra arent a problem. EXCEPT KT wouldnt send out Action/Crazy-hydra unless they have a sniper build set up. KT would send out Stats (a guy who's undefeated in Proleague) Wooki (a PvZ/PvP specialist)..And Jaedong's ZvP in the past 11?
0-11. All losses.
So the risk is..would you rather take a chance on.. JYP (Poor PvT, Good PvZ, Great PvP)? or.. Jaedong (Sub par ZvT, Great ZvZ, Absymal ZvP)?
And this factors in that these KT guys have specific sniper builds setup they have map choice; and in the case of JYP, if he beats Flash...KT's 2nd terran: Mind..is garbage. whereas their Protoss line is extremely deep with Stats/Wooki/Motive. They saw JYP as the better choice. Just because they sent out JYP over Jaedong doesnt mean they're throwing or not putting emphasis on PL. However you are entitled to rant about the poor decision making and why the former SKT T1 coach would be fired from his position in EG-TL. ----------------------
Now to tackle your 2nd point. Yes, Kespa teams take the league seriously, and in the case of MSL preliminaries, ODT preliminaries, and in the Up/Down (basically the ODTs ofthe GSL), they usually emphasize team league more than the individual. When they make it to OSL/MSL or in the case Code S; they start to put more emphasis on the individual to succeed than the team. That's been seen time and time again. however to make the assumption EG-TL doesnt have the same "urgency" as other Proleague teams... well..I'm sorry but that's a very stupid comment to make.
Why? How do you know if they're urgent or not? You can make the same inference that mean everytime KT fields Barracks or when SKT T1 fields Bisu, they're not treating the PL with urgency and basically "throwing" when they're against the top-players. It's also not like KT havent fielded Flash when his group game was on the same day either; I think on the day Flash/Effort for the OSL Championship; KT played a game that day and they actually sent out Flash. Look at the PL Matchups. B-teamer vs Top Tier A-Teamer, happens A LOT.
Every team goes in with a game plan. And no..EG-TL are playing with the same sort of urgency.. or else They would be fielding Huk/Thorzain/Zenio/Demuslim/Idra, or whoever with a **** all attitude. But they dont.
In the prime example you're referring to "KT vs EG-TL", They fielded their Ace: Taeja; they tried to snipe Flash with Hero on Antiga, and send out Revival/Zenio. Certainly theyre putting a lot of emphasis on the proleague as well; I'm sure they want their players to succeed in the Up/Downs.