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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/8896362/Situation_Report_Heart_of_the_Swarm_Balance-3_4_2013#c-8087758956 Posted: 4:00 PM PST 3/4/2013
+ Show Spoiler +The Heart of the Swarm beta has come to an end and we’d like to thank you for making a huge difference and helping us address numerous issues. We’re very pleased with the level of participation and enthusiasm you brought to the beta test, and we appreciate all of the detailed feedback you’ve provided.
We hope to continue hearing from you long after the game goes live. In this update, we’d like to share our thoughts on the current state of balance for Heart of the Swarm.
To begin with, we’re not seeing any glaring issues right now for any matchup from Bronze through Master leagues, and our adjusted ratings for each league are actually showing that balance has steadily approached 50% over the course of the beta. Additionally, the top 30 for GM league is currently made up of 7 Zerg, 13 Terran, and 10 Protoss players, and the win/loss ratios for Heart of the Swarm tournament matches thus far have been solid for each race.
We feel the game’s balance is in a good place as we head into release, but that doesn’t mean we think it’s absolutely perfect. We’re always on the lookout for changes in how the game is played, and we track the community’s concerns as they come up so that we can adjust our views accordingly. We realize that just like with Wings of Liberty, not every player is going to take the game seriously until it goes live, and we’ll have to continue to tune Heart of the Swarm after release. While we’ll be keeping a close eye on concerns that some of you have with units such as the Hydralisk and Oracle, we don’t want to rush potentially drastic changes before we’ve had a chance to see how the game develops.
We feel that players still need time to really master HotS, and we need more high-level tournaments to take place in order to gauge these concerns as accurately as possible.
With that said, we'd like to address a couple of strategies that seem to frequently inspire debate among the community:
Medivacs with Ignite Afterburners are too strong.
When we first introduced this change, we mentioned how we think certain strategies are really awesome to see as a viewer, and this is a perfect example. Back in Wings, Medivac drops were all we were seeing at the pro level, but their use has greatly diminished over time as players learned to react and deal with them better.
Our general thinking on new units and abilities is that using them will always be learned faster than defending against them for obvious reasons. Because we’re already seeing some players defend against the new Medivacs extremely well, we definitely want to wait on this feedback to really make sure that it is in fact overpowered before making a change.
The strength of Protoss air, especially against Zerg.
We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered.
The main reason why we feel this way is that it’s difficult for Protoss to keep up in economy while executing this strategy. In pro level tournament games, we’ve seen this army composition countered in many different ways, and we’re pretty sure that even pros haven’t quite developed an optimal counter-strategy for dealing with Protoss air compositions.
We will definitely be keeping a close eye on where this strategy ends up, but right now our stance on air Protoss is that it’s really powerful, but we’re not seeing signs of it being broken to the point that Zerg has no chance against it.
Please remember that none of this is final, and we are still willing to make changes going forward. We’re constantly playing the game with all three races, watching as many tournaments and high-level streams as possible, analyzing community and pro feedback, and meeting on a daily basis just to discuss what we’re seeing. The game is changing rapidly at the moment because players are generally still in the learning phase for Heart of the Swarm, and our thoughts on a particular topic might change completely depending on how the game evolves. Please take everything we’ve said with that in mind, and we hope to continue working with our community to make StarCraft II as awesome as possible.
Thank you once again for all of the engaging discussions and constructive feedback during the beta. Your help has been, and continues to be, invaluable to us. We hope to see all of you on the Heart of the Swarm ladder come March 12. I for one am happy they aren't doing anything drastic to start things off. This new reserved approach is a much better alternative to the roller coaster ride that was early WoL balance. Hopefully the end result is awesome but for right now I totally agree with everything Dayvie has said.
New David Kim post : 3/18/2013
Just wanted to let you know that our design team is watching every major match carefully and will continue doing so.
Some things we're noticing are:
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
Pretty reasonable things they've said there. Glad they're not rushing in to buffing/nerfing anything because that's what made WoL so stale in the first place, they overnerfed everything before the game came out and didn't bufff anything back.
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Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented.
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Well I dont necessarily agree with it, but I cant fault them for being prudent.
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While we’ll be keeping a close eye on concerns that some of you have with units such as the Hydralisk and Oracle, we don’t want to rush potentially drastic changes before we’ve had a chance to see how the game develops. Funny how they were really experimental with the hellbat but are still holding back on some other stuff. I wish they'd approach each race equally.
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On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented.
Took them forever to nerf terran in wol to at the beginning .
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its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron]
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what happened to that terran unit that got pulled? the one with auto targeting (-,.-)
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It will be interesting to see the balance of IEM this weekend and see how accurate they are with this analysis.
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On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron]
Why is this inherently bad?
Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill.
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How boring. I've never seen such a long blog written over a non-change before.
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On March 05 2013 09:12 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented. Took them forever to nerf terran in wol to at the beginning . Hmm? Terran nerfs came at a pretty steady pace all the way from release to the end of 2011.
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I like that blizzard is taking a slower approach to balancing, yeah it sucks for non terrans that imbavac's wont be seeing a nerf anytime soon, but I'm way more confident that this approach to balancing will pay off in the long run.
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On March 05 2013 09:17 Rorra wrote: I like that blizzard is taking a slower approach to balancing, yeah it sucks for non terrans that imbavac's wont be seeing a nerf anytime soon, but I'm way more confident that this approach to balancing will pay off in the long run. You shouldn't be confident in blizzard at balancing at all..
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You know I think its pretty hard to buy any argument that medivac speed boost doesn't need a minor nerf, but I don't mind them waiting until after the first round of post-release tournaments to make changes.
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Pretty solid report if you ask me. Nothing was said about early game ZvT (which is the only other complain I can think of right now that I heard over the past few weeks), but it doesn't seem as troubling as it was when only third rate zergs were playing the beta. Now that the good zergs are done farming WoL prize money, we'll see how they deal with the new stuff.
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opterown
Australia54643 Posts
cue forum warriors balance whining and reverse-balance whining! haha i think it is too early to say anything, myself
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
I would like to say that if you're toss and want to learn to deal with speedvacs then seriously check out the MLG Showdown games from today. The toss dealt with them so damn well.
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On March 05 2013 09:19 askmc70 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:17 Rorra wrote: I like that blizzard is taking a slower approach to balancing, yeah it sucks for non terrans that imbavac's wont be seeing a nerf anytime soon, but I'm way more confident that this approach to balancing will pay off in the long run. You shouldn't be confident in blizzard at balancing at all.. dae hate blizzard lel
User was warned for this post
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On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill.
Clearly you don't understand the game, as those things are not even close to similar.
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On March 05 2013 09:22 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:19 askmc70 wrote:On March 05 2013 09:17 Rorra wrote: I like that blizzard is taking a slower approach to balancing, yeah it sucks for non terrans that imbavac's wont be seeing a nerf anytime soon, but I'm way more confident that this approach to balancing will pay off in the long run. You shouldn't be confident in blizzard at balancing at all.. dae hate blizzard lel It's not blizzard hate. Just kinda the truth.
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On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill.
no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there.
There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off.
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Agree with the general consensus that I'm happy Blizzard are going to take their time.
I remember everyone complaining about reaper rushes and by the time it was patched Idra was noted as saying it was no longer as much of an issue because zerg had learned how to adapt.
Also it's so close to release. I expect they want to see the game go ahead in a semi balanced manner as opposed to trying a drastic change so late.
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I guess this means mech isn't really a concern for them anymore.
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On March 05 2013 09:24 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. Clearly you don't understand the game, as those things are not even close to similar. Way to back up your position there mate. Totally not a useless post.
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On March 05 2013 09:19 askmc70 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:17 Rorra wrote: I like that blizzard is taking a slower approach to balancing, yeah it sucks for non terrans that imbavac's wont be seeing a nerf anytime soon, but I'm way more confident that this approach to balancing will pay off in the long run. You shouldn't be confident in blizzard at balancing at all.. "more confident" as in more confident than in the approach they were taking before, of course its blizzard they could most certainly change their ideas of how they want to balance the game by the next patch and that would be rather disappointing.
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I didn't expect any changes before release. What they said is reasonable.
I hope protoss players will show in early tournaments how airtoss is strong, so it can be balanced.
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An accurate look at what is going on in HotS so far. Blizzard is taking more cautious steps in balancing this time from what it looks like, not rushing to solve the issue, but taking the issue at a close hand and receiving the community's words first before anything drastic happens.
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All of that is totally reasonable. I am glad they are not rushing to nerf Protoss air because Zergs are still figuring things out in HOTS and have to learn play again since passive play doesn't work now and new styles will likely be needed (as they said with the No Rush 15 thing).
Likewise with turbo medivacs, they seemed super broken at first but now people have started to figure it out. I have started placing cannons to deal with them, which seems to be a common strategy from what I saw from streams.
I just don't want this to turn into another WoL so I am all for waiting for balance, even if it is something that looks broken now. It may not in a week or two. We all need to figure this game out way more before we can make any real claims about balance.
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Did blizzard just give up on mech TvP or what? Because right now its still not good enougt too be viable. Otherwise, im happy that they are taking it slow and not rushing to "fix" anything right away.
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Have not follow Hots before. Can someone please tell me if the game still 1 huge battle -> GG? I am still undecided if I should buy it.
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On March 05 2013 09:16 neoghaleon55 wrote: How boring. I've never seen such a long blog written over a non-change before.
it's probably the best blog they've written. Every balance blog they write about brings up heated discussions which usually results in pure hate of blizzard. Not only did they alter HotS units, but WoL units as well and they've had 3 years of WoL to see exactly what they wanted for HotS. I think they are doing just fine with this approach, they had 3 years and 6 months of beta to create a new SC2 and I think they've done it. It's about time to see how the game is played without a balance patch every week.
On March 05 2013 09:33 forumtext wrote: Have not follow Hots before. Can someone please tell me if the game still 1 huge battle -> GG? I am still undecided if I should buy it.
you've had all this time to watch streams or MLG or show matches and you never did? It's still a little death bally, but it's a lot more fun to watch as a spectator imo.
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On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. Are we really pretending that the only thing blink is used for is pulling back a stalker mid-battle?
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United Kingdom20149 Posts
On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off.
They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off.
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Good approach. I like it. : ]
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No mention of the fact that widow mines + bio makes ling/bling/muta almost unviable? Seems silly that David didn't even list widow mines as a unit that needs to be looked at.
Also no mention of hellbats making the mech army extremely tanky forcing the zerg to go directly into hive tech making for rather boring games.
I think early game ZvT is fine and if anything Zerg was able to play too greedy in WoL but the issue that annoys me is that Terran's mid game compositions completely trash zerg's mid game compositions.
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As a zerg, I guess I can deal with waiting as long as we all usually have to for things to be patched :'o
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China6271 Posts
I'm quite happy with their current approach, speedvacs isn't too hard to defend with some minimap awareness and protoss air really takes a lot to get there.
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On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. But do Medivacs need the afternurner ability? I think they were fine before and blizzard should have buffed terran in some other way (more tank damage?).
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I think the game is looking really healthy. Im excited about all 3 races, and nothing seems imbalanced to me. I liked this report as it addressed a lot of concerns ive seen people have.
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As a viewer I still don't like the mechanics of the 'mine' and the swarm host. I find it really disappointing that this is actually the final form of these units.
How is it that Blizzard used months balancing the beta and never ask the audience the crucial questions like "Do you have fun playing with/against these units?" or "Is it fun to watch these kinds of tactics?".
I really feel they wasted their time in this beta. With the sophistication of the editor they could have easily had 10 iterations of every new unit just to try out and get general feedback. Hell, they would not even need to integrate them all into the live running beta version. Just make a custom micro challenge map with for example 10 lurker-like units, no need for correct animations or even different models. Just mix some spells and abilities together and put it out there, get feedback from the people and repeat the process.
Really disappointing from Blizzard and very disheartening if I think about LotV...
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On March 05 2013 09:12 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented. Took them forever to nerf terran in wol to at the beginning .
once it started they nerfed them every patch lol
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On March 05 2013 09:55 coasts wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. But do Medivacs need the afternurner ability? I think they were fine before and blizzard should have buffed terran in some other way (more tank damage?). More anti-harass abilities are in HotS: mines, faster Mutas, Mothership Core, ranged Phoenix, etc. The general idea to buff harassment was sound, though the execution is questionable.
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On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off.
Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact.
To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways.
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On March 05 2013 09:19 askmc70 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:17 Rorra wrote: I like that blizzard is taking a slower approach to balancing, yeah it sucks for non terrans that imbavac's wont be seeing a nerf anytime soon, but I'm way more confident that this approach to balancing will pay off in the long run. You shouldn't be confident in blizzard at balancing at all..
Why's that?
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I don´t like their approach to the Protoss super army. I think Wings has shown how bad it is if the races end up on different powerlevels in the endgame.
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On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways. And how is that any different than blink?
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On March 05 2013 09:57 lord_nibbler wrote: As a viewer I still don't like the mechanics of the 'mine' and the swarm host. I find it really disappointing that this is actually the final form of these units.
How is it that Blizzard used months balancing the beta and never ask the audience the crucial questions like "Do you have fun playing with/against these units?" or "Is it fun to watch these kinds of tactics?".
I really feel they wasted their time in this beta. With the sophistication of the editor they could have easily had 10 iterations of every new unit just to try out and get general feedback. Hell, they would not even need to integrate them all into the live running beta version. Just make a custom micro challenge map with for example 10 lurker-like units, no need for correct animations or even different models. Just mix some spells and abilities together and put it out there, get feedback from the people and repeat the process.
Really disappointing from Blizzard and very disheartening if I think about LotV...
what's funny is they actually have a team or something like that of people experienced with sc2 and people with no experience and they ask these groups of people their opinion on the game from a spectators pov. I think they mentioned this in their last blizzcon interviews or something around that time. I remember david kim talking about this.
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On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways.
I don't see why it's inherently bad that a unit has an ability with no resource cost other than time. Especially when it's not really something is strictly better if spammed (used every cooldown).
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On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote:
The strength of Protoss air, especially against Zerg.
We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered. I dont know why, but this made me laugh a lot when I read it. I think it might be a passive-aggressive at some of the more vocal people in the community, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, something about that made me laugh, haha. WP.
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What the hell Blizzard?!
Are you trying to tell me that we're getting a whole goddamn expansion without a bunker or barracks change!
Glad to see them taking the slow route even if I'm finding certain match ups (looking at you ZvP) to be really frustrating at the moment.
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On March 05 2013 10:12 tshi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote:
The strength of Protoss air, especially against Zerg.
We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered. I dont know why, but this made me laugh a lot when I read it. I think it might be a passive-aggressive at some of the more vocal people in the community, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, something about that made me laugh, haha. WP.
He's just being frank which frankly I am appreciative of.
It's been known forever in Brood War and in SC2 that sometimes if you can't just sit and let your opponent build whatever he wants. In SC2 that's only ever really been true of Zergs with their ultra powerful late game armies. We'll have to see how the reverse works and if PvZ can evolve to a dynamic similar to what we saw in Brood War.
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I want to understand,why are Speedmedivacs supposed to be OP and need a Nerf??? In WoL is pretty easy to totally shut down a drop,so if we got some improvement,its fine.Where is the issue?
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On March 05 2013 10:17 Dvriel wrote: I want to understand,why are Speedmedivacs supposed to be OP and need a Nerf??? In WoL is pretty easy to totally shut down a drop,so if we got some improvement,its fine.Where is the issue?
as stated before, its that theres no drawback in using the boosters. Don't get me wrong, in WoL, drops lost most of their strength because players are just much more prepared for them, so a buff was needed, but i could definitely see top tier terrans pulling off triple/quadruple drops and wrecking the infrastructure of their opponents and they just zip out of there with minimal damage and be back in time to join up with the main army so they dont just flat out die to any kind of deathball counterattack.
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On March 05 2013 09:21 opterown wrote: cue forum warriors balance whining and reverse-balance whining! haha i think it is too early to say anything, myself I like the comment that "This army seems amazing in 15 minute no rush games. However, in the rest of the world where we attack each other before our fourth base..."
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Come ON.....
Nerf the medivac boosters, none will play terran. the major things in terran arsenal are : Hellbat, widow mines and medivacs........so if they take medivacs, they will be weak like in WoL. Sniped by mutas, stalkers. It is exciting as a viewer to see the speed boost too
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On March 05 2013 10:10 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways. And how is that any different than blink?
Stalkers can't fly or take 8 supply of units with them, but I see your point. A slightly longer cool down would likely be a good thing.
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On March 05 2013 10:24 EyesOnMe wrote: Come ON.....
Nerf the medivac boosters, none will play terran. the major things in terran arsenal are : Hellbat, widow mines and medivacs........so if they take medivacs, they will be weak like in WoL. Sniped by mutas, stalkers. It is exciting as a viewer to see the speed boost too It would be more exciting to watch if there was a (energy) cost associated with it, so you could see the decision making that goes into the boosts.
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On March 05 2013 10:26 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:24 EyesOnMe wrote: Come ON.....
Nerf the medivac boosters, none will play terran. the major things in terran arsenal are : Hellbat, widow mines and medivacs........so if they take medivacs, they will be weak like in WoL. Sniped by mutas, stalkers. It is exciting as a viewer to see the speed boost too It would be more exciting to watch if there was a (energy) cost associated with it, so you could see the decision making that goes into the boosts.
I think that would just lead to people not using it or people turning off healing. I think a cool down is fine, it just needs to be slightly longer between each boost.
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hots isn't even out for 3months+ with that patch, not sure how anything can be considered imba or op.
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On March 05 2013 09:12 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented. Took them forever to nerf terran in wol to at the beginning . And then after that year for a year and a half straight it was "smash smash smash smash, nerf nerf nerf nerf" so, this is odd.
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On March 05 2013 10:10 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways. And how is that any different than blink?
I didn't say it was a bad thing -- I explicity said "whether or not you think it's too strong..." for that reason. I think it's too early to call whether or not changes to afterburners are needed. I was responding to Cyro, whose statement that a cooldown was a "trade off" is just factually inaccurate.
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the cooldown should be nerfed to 30 seconds instead of 20. i actually think it needs to be increased to 40 but 30 is more realistic
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On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Wtf does that even mean "no risk to not use it?" The ability has a cooldown, therefore if you use the ability at one point you lose the opportunity to use it later until it is off of cooldown. Teching to medivacs and choosing to go for drops is a risk in and of itself. Splitting up your army is another risk. The only unit I can think of that has no risk involved is the queen.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
During the start of Hots beta I suggested the speed boost ability for the medivac, but also said that while on afterburners, there should be some kind of penalty. One possibility is to have the medivac receive 20% more damage while ability is on. It adds more decision making but I don't think it necessarily adds micro. Another possibility is to have medivacs on afterburners unable to stop. This means that dropping with afterburners on has to be a moving drop; a stationary drop is only possible once the ability is on cooldown. Dropping in a small area therefore needs more micro. This way it can be spammed en route (more incentive to drop), but has penalties during the drop or pick-up (easier to snipe or harder to drop).
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People look at things like medivac speed in a vacuum too often. Mutas have a passive permanent speed buff, so obviously old medivac drops would have no chance. Protoss has a nexus cannon and recall, which are in place to compensate for the lack of mobility vs drops against Terran, and vs faster mutas against Zerg. Each of these 3 races' new weapons would all be overpowered if the other 2 races' weapons weren't implemented.
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I kinda miss the traditional bunker change.
Apart from that, damn reasonable approach by Blizzard
Let's wait and see if IEM shows some major imbalances of VRs and Speedyvacs, or new ones with imba Muta games
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On March 05 2013 10:26 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:24 EyesOnMe wrote: Come ON.....
Nerf the medivac boosters, none will play terran. the major things in terran arsenal are : Hellbat, widow mines and medivacs........so if they take medivacs, they will be weak like in WoL. Sniped by mutas, stalkers. It is exciting as a viewer to see the speed boost too It would be more exciting to watch if there was a (energy) cost associated with it, so you could see the decision making that goes into the boosts.
What kind of decision making would that be?
"Oh I'd better hope that they don't scout my medivac on the way, because then if I burn Boosters to make my drop work then it will be impotent, as even the most basic defenses will kill my attacking units without medivac support"?
or
"Oh I'd better hope that they don't scout my medivac on the way, because then if I burn Boosters to try and evade their units and retreat to my defenses then I will have been punished for trying to harass by making my Medivacs less effective for a period of time against oncoming attacks"?
Either way, if an energy cost is introduced and a Terran uses Afterburners he loses. Blizzard wants to promote drop play, multitasking, and less deathballs: not punish it by rendering units impotent if Terran attempts drop harass and is scouted.
There are far more effective anti-air and anti-drop options in HOTS than there were in WOL, including better Stargate play and free halucinations for scouting, Widow Mines and Mutalisks; We don't need to neuter drop play even further than it already is by making it a lose/lose situation for the Terran to even try when both Protoss and Zerg have the exact same and sometimes better options to scout it ahead of time or while in flight.
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The thing I still find strange is the bio tag on hellbats. Not whether it is strong or not, but it's just strange having it.
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On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented.
No, they hate zergs like all of us. It's justice time
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It's great to see them give feedback that they've been monitoring the situation but Protoss not being able to secure the economy for successful air ZvP is up there with the most nonsensical things that have come out of these situation reports. Literally every new unit protoss got, discounting the air changes, has made it significantly easier to GET to that point in the game or to cripple your opponents economy to make the transition easier.
I agree with their approach but I don't think their analysis is without fault.
edit: zomg commas
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In before they get egg on their faces after IEM results come in and do a 180.
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On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways.
Where is the drawback to warpgate?
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I like the "wait and see" approach.
One strategy I saw almost every PvT was the widow mine rush. The widow mines were in my base and buried before I had an army to kill them or detection to see them. So I felt like I had to open early forge or robo, which seemed like the same narrow build order Protoss had against Terran in WoL. I liked the msc having detection because I felt I had the option to go twilight tech without the huge risk. Then again my play was in Plat/Dia. so maybe this isn't an issue for everyone. The few games against Terran when they didn't open this way were very entertaining.
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On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron]
Yes there's a risk to use it. It has a cooldown. If you use it to get in, you don't have it to get out.
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On March 05 2013 09:21 opterown wrote: cue forum warriors balance whining and reverse-balance whining! haha i think it is too early to say anything, myself
Why aren't you politically correct.
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i can't believe this thread has already devolved into a whining about medivacs thread
if they decide: okay, in WOL there was too much deathball play because the drops were getting shut down really hard once blink or mutas were out.
why are we complaining about it before even a few months have gone by on the patch........? what do we want? deathballs again? That's the only conclusion i can draw from some of these posts. What is so difficult about splitting your army to deal with 8 or 16 supply of units + a medivac? it's faster yes, so it's punishing to people who lump everything into one group and expect to be able to deflect harass at all their bases, but it's still the same units in the medivacs, and the dynamic is the same. Terran split his army, pick one and crush it or split and defend. Nothing has changed except that now you can't rely on mutas or blink to instagib every dropship
i will admit medivacs now feel like a strong unit to have - but with this came easier defense opportunities for the other races.. i find it amazing that people complain about these medivac drops when a single HT can feedback all the incoming medivacs, potentially killing some if they have 3/4s ~+ energy and then storm + warpin a few units there to defend, or when mutalisks are faster, hydras are actually viable so you can position them to target medis as they come in (they SHRED them) and zerglings are still fast enough to defend things you see coming even if its only a few seconds before..
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What the heck?? No word on hellbats, that's the things everybody is angry about. And the answer to a composition shouldn't simply be, don't let Protoss get there. That's retarded.
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I don't quite understand what the fuss about the medivac's ability is. It's clearly a straight up buff by Blizzard, meant to be viewed as a tiny part of a complete overhaul of the gameplay from WoL to HotS, what are you even arguing about? Whether it's too powerful or not I can't really say, but let's see it simply as a new unit like the reaper and the void ray, not like a "faster medivac that was meant to have a drawback but doesn't".
Hydralisks got a speed upgrade, they're now faster than in WoL. WHERE'S THE FUCKING DRAWBACK? Well no need, it's called a buff. My dear Zerg friends, I didn't see you wondering where was the drawback when the queen got a range +2 buff, did I?
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If zerg has trouble with no rush 15 games against protoss, maybe they should make some units ^^;;
Also, I would love scourge to be added for zerg. Would add a lot of micro potential for SC2, which is always good. Too bad it's too late for them to add it.
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What Blizzard will never learn to appreciate is tournament money given away during imbalance. So it was in WoL inb4 the needed terran nerfs, GomTvT, Warp gate ridiculously little research time. Now in WoL, the patchzergs and Blizzard's 'I don't care at all' politic. Seems like in HotS things will continue. Blizzard will still be retards about their own game and won't make the needed changes soon or at all.
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they have the right attitude, and I trust that they will make the changes as they see fit. Protoss was never nerfed after the laser ball was absurdly powerful a year or two ago, since people had yet to realize the utility of the infestor. Just becuase there hasn't been a counter strategy developed immediately within two weeks does not mean that something is overpowered. Especially since this is the beta now its best that they're being prudent before making changes
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On March 05 2013 11:05 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways. Where is the drawback to warpgate?
There isn't one. I didn't say abilities needed to have drawbacks to be balanced; I even clarified this in my second post. I just said that having a cooldown on an ability is not a drawback, it's a cost.
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On March 05 2013 11:05 sitromit wrote: In before they get egg on their faces after IEM results come in and do a 180.
lol, you think they actually look at results? Even if IEM has no zergs in the top 12. They will still claim win rate is 50/50 on ladder and everything is fine.
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On March 05 2013 11:34 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 11:05 sitromit wrote: In before they get egg on their faces after IEM results come in and do a 180. lol, you think they actually look at results? Even if IEM has no zergs in the top 12. They will still claim win rate is 50/50 on ladder and everything is fine.
they always pay attention if zerg is losing
ie. IEM Cologne , and the "creep nerf" that never happened
edit: i'd say if zerg has a bad showing, they will consider it. but don't expect them to completely change the fundamentals of a game that is extremely close to launch because of a handful of touranment results
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At least blizzard has improved. I'm confident we will never have another reaper incident again. I'm glad that they listened to our feedback and by the time LotV comes out I think we'll have a damn good RTS
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I'm so glad they are not changing the meds, if they nerf it T lost pretty much the only cool ability they gained in HOTS.
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On March 05 2013 11:34 Pazuzu wrote: they have the right attitude, and I trust that they will make the changes as they see fit. Protoss was never nerfed after the laser ball was absurdly powerful a year or two ago, since people had yet to realize the utility of the infestor. Just becuase there hasn't been a counter strategy developed immediately within two weeks does not mean that something is overpowered. Especially since this is the beta now its best that they're being prudent before making changes You have to remember that in patch 1.3.0 fungal dps increased +100% (+160% vs armored). People suddenly didn't just realize it was good. That composition was broken before, it just took blizz time to realize that.
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Seems like a pretty reasonable statement. I'm not really a fan of insta-nerfs.
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I have said it several times already, problem with the medivac speed is not it is too fast, the problem is it is too fast coming too early in the game
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i don't think IEM is going to be on the most recent patch with changes to whateverwhatever.
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remove hellbat bio tag bc it makes no sense lorewise and seems unnecessary multiplayer wise. hellbats are enticing enough as is
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On March 05 2013 09:24 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. Clearly you don't understand the game, as those things are not even close to similar.
Clearly you don't understand the game, as those things are really quite similar.
Our statements definitely SEEM similar... at the very least, they both share a fantastic lack of evidence.
IMO: medivacs are strong, but so is P air. And zerg is.. not sure. I don't think people are using vipers enough. It's definitely too early to make any big changes, now that we're out of beta. I'm hoping to see what strats people come up with.
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I really don't think there is anything exciting about stupidly fast medivacs, as a spectator. Especially as a spectator myself; I haven't left bronze league in my life (so it's hardly a player's opinion). If that's seriously their only reason for keeping it exactly as it is now... ugh.
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but but terran doesn't have viable air units yet trololol
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On March 05 2013 12:01 Alryk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:24 baldgye wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. Clearly you don't understand the game, as those things are not even close to similar. Clearly you don't understand the game, as those things are really quite similar. Our statements definitely SEEM similar... at the very least, they both share a fantastic lack of evidence. IMO: medivacs are strong, but so is P air. And zerg is.. not sure. I don't think people are using vipers enough. It's definitely too early to make any big changes, now that we're out of beta. I'm hoping to see what strats people come up with.
i have to agree with alryk on this one... you're trying to argue that blink (mobility increasing ability) with a cooldown is fundamentally different than ignite afterburners (mobility increasing ability) with a cooldown
you can argue, "well if you blink when your stalker isn't in danger, then you cant blink to get away" we can argue, "well if you boost when your dropship isn't in danger, then you cant boost to get away"
it's the same exact thing,,,, how can you argue this?
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I'm just a mere mortal, but when I watch pro zerg streams I never see them beat skytoss ... is it just a matter of being able to identify and punish the strategy early?
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On March 05 2013 12:06 ke_ivan wrote: but but terran doesn't have viable air units yet trololol
Battle cruiser got some nice buffs in HotS
Yamato Cannon is now 100 energy, down from 125. So at max energy you can yamato twice per BC Air to Ground attack has been buffed from 8 to 10. With an Attack Speed of .225 they deal 44.4 DPS with no upgrades
With +3 to air, they'll deal 13 damage with each attack, which gives them a DPS of 57.7 against ground units.
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On March 05 2013 12:22 Defacer wrote: I'm just a mere mortal, but when I watch pro zerg streams I never see them beat skytoss ... is it just a matter of being able to identify and punish the strategy early?
pretty much for right now. Protoss air is extremely gas heavy. Once its identified zerg needs to find out how to be aggressive. Its a new feeling for zerg. Its pretty much opposite to what they are used to so its going to take some time for zerg to figure it out
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medivac boost is not OP. Blizz is right... learn to deal with it instead of complaining.
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On March 05 2013 12:25 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 12:06 ke_ivan wrote: but but terran doesn't have viable air units yet trololol Battle cruiser got some nice buffs in HotS Yamato Cannon is now 100 energy, down from 125. So at max energy you can yamato twice per BC Air to Ground attack has been buffed from 8 to 10. With an Attack Speed of .225 they deal 44.4 DPS with no upgradesWith +3 to air, they'll deal 13 damage with each attack, which gives them a DPS of 57.7 against ground units. I don't think the attack buff ever came through: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397551#4 I can't really check, though.
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On March 05 2013 12:31 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 12:25 nomyx wrote:On March 05 2013 12:06 ke_ivan wrote: but but terran doesn't have viable air units yet trololol Battle cruiser got some nice buffs in HotS Yamato Cannon is now 100 energy, down from 125. So at max energy you can yamato twice per BC Air to Ground attack has been buffed from 8 to 10. With an Attack Speed of .225 they deal 44.4 DPS with no upgradesWith +3 to air, they'll deal 13 damage with each attack, which gives them a DPS of 57.7 against ground units. I don't think the attack buff ever came through: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397551#4I can't really check, though.
if it did go through you can bet your ass i'm gonna be doing that scrap station BC build that one WeRRa player did vs protoss long ago :D
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On March 05 2013 12:31 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 12:25 nomyx wrote:On March 05 2013 12:06 ke_ivan wrote: but but terran doesn't have viable air units yet trololol Battle cruiser got some nice buffs in HotS Yamato Cannon is now 100 energy, down from 125. So at max energy you can yamato twice per BC Air to Ground attack has been buffed from 8 to 10. With an Attack Speed of .225 they deal 44.4 DPS with no upgradesWith +3 to air, they'll deal 13 damage with each attack, which gives them a DPS of 57.7 against ground units. I don't think the attack buff ever came through: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397551#4I can't really check, though.
Yeah It's definitely possible that they removed it. I know for a fact they removed the battlecruiser speed boost (same ability as the medivac but you had to use 50 energy to use it)
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On March 05 2013 12:25 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 12:06 ke_ivan wrote: but but terran doesn't have viable air units yet trololol Battle cruiser got some nice buffs in HotS Yamato Cannon is now 100 energy, down from 125. So at max energy you can yamato twice per BC Air to Ground attack has been buffed from 8 to 10. With an Attack Speed of .225 they deal 44.4 DPS with no upgradesWith +3 to air, they'll deal 13 damage with each attack, which gives them a DPS of 57.7 against ground units. Battlecruiser ground attack change was a mistake, they changed it back to 8 damage early on in the beta. I had no idea that yamato cannon energy cost was changed but according to Liquipedia you are right.
The biggest buff to the BC IMO was the raven seeker missile buffs. 75 energy spammable seeker missile is a million times better in air vs air battles, and it truly makes the BC/raven comp the ultimately terran lategame army. I think BCs will be a viable lategame addition in TvT and TvZ, but tempest + HT makes me doubt their usefulness in TvP. The shared armor upgrades with mech also help with air transitioning.
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I like how Blizzard is still very patient with balance. Unlike Riot, who completely flash-nerfs things with patches every three weeks. This game is remarkably balanced, especially compared to how some of the newer people on the forums exaggerate the issue.
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On March 05 2013 12:07 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 12:01 Alryk wrote:On March 05 2013 09:24 baldgye wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. Clearly you don't understand the game, as those things are not even close to similar. Clearly you don't understand the game, as those things are really quite similar. Our statements definitely SEEM similar... at the very least, they both share a fantastic lack of evidence. IMO: medivacs are strong, but so is P air. And zerg is.. not sure. I don't think people are using vipers enough. It's definitely too early to make any big changes, now that we're out of beta. I'm hoping to see what strats people come up with. i have to agree with alryk on this one... you're trying to argue that blink (mobility increasing ability) with a cooldown is fundamentally different than ignite afterburners (mobility increasing ability) with a cooldown you can argue, "well if you blink when your stalker isn't in danger, then you cant blink to get away" we can argue, "well if you boost when your dropship isn't in danger, then you cant boost to get away" it's the same exact thing,,,, how can you argue this?
DUH. Medivacs can fly.
/s
Edit: BC stuff I just wrote is irrelevant as I just read the posts above me
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On March 05 2013 12:34 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 12:25 nomyx wrote:On March 05 2013 12:06 ke_ivan wrote: but but terran doesn't have viable air units yet trololol Battle cruiser got some nice buffs in HotS Yamato Cannon is now 100 energy, down from 125. So at max energy you can yamato twice per BC Air to Ground attack has been buffed from 8 to 10. With an Attack Speed of .225 they deal 44.4 DPS with no upgradesWith +3 to air, they'll deal 13 damage with each attack, which gives them a DPS of 57.7 against ground units. Battlecruiser ground attack change was a mistake, they changed it back to 8 damage early on in the beta. I had no idea that yamato cannon energy cost was changed but according to Liquipedia you are right. The biggest buff to the BC IMO was the raven seeker missile buffs. 75 energy spammable seeker missile is a million times better in air vs air battles, and it truly makes the BC/raven comp the ultimately terran lategame army. I think BCs will be a viable lategame addition in TvT and TvZ, but tempest + HT makes me doubt their usefulness in TvP. The shared armor upgrades with mech also help with air transitioning. Yep, Raven is a really powerful unit now. I like it :D Definitely deserved some of that "WoL infestor" love.
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On March 05 2013 12:51 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I like how Blizzard is still very patient with balance. Unlike Riot, who completely flash-nerfs things with patches every three weeks. This game is remarkably balanced, especially compared to how some of the newer people on the forums exaggerate the issue.
Blizzard has really came a long way from the WoL beta. Honestly I'm impressed with them now a days. I just look back to the reaper nerfs and how they completely made an SC2 unit onto the level of scout / queen in BW. Hardly ever used and the only time the reaper was used post nerf was for a weird TvT build.
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On March 05 2013 09:33 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. Are we really pretending that the only thing blink is used for is pulling back a stalker mid-battle?
blinking a stalker back is an insane dps loss bro! it's at least 14 or even 15 damage
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No rush 15 comment is a bit of a slap in the face. We will see how things play out soon enough though.
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wonder why they would release this contentless report right before iem
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On March 05 2013 13:18 Tsubbi wrote: wonder why they would release this contentless report right before iem
It makes sense, the SC2 community is very pessimistic. Blizzard just wants to re-assure people that they are in fact still looking at the balance problems and will continue to work on the issues.
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On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron]
There is a solid precedence for it not costing energy. In SC2 spells/abilities generally cost either a resource (health/energy) or have a cool down but not both. So if speedboost costs energy, it shouldn't have a cooldown so which would u prefer? opportunity cost or energy cost?
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On March 05 2013 13:06 TheRabidDeer wrote: No rush 15 comment is a bit of a slap in the face. We will see how things play out soon enough though. I thought the same thing, it seemed pretty tactless for an official response.
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On March 05 2013 13:27 Moa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 13:06 TheRabidDeer wrote: No rush 15 comment is a bit of a slap in the face. We will see how things play out soon enough though. I thought the same thing, it seemed pretty tactless for an official response. It seemed on point to me and I am glad they are taking a more forceful tone the more insane balance claims. There were a lot of people complaining about skytoss, but it seemed like some fictional, gas based army that would never happen in a real game. Riot does the same thing when people complain about crazy things that happen in crazy, 1.5 hour games that rarely happen.
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On March 05 2013 12:26 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 12:22 Defacer wrote: I'm just a mere mortal, but when I watch pro zerg streams I never see them beat skytoss ... is it just a matter of being able to identify and punish the strategy early? pretty much for right now. Protoss air is extremely gas heavy. Once its identified zerg needs to find out how to be aggressive. Its a new feeling for zerg. Its pretty much opposite to what they are used to so its going to take some time for zerg to figure it out
I hope that they can figure it out. Unfortunately, we've still got building walls, ramps, and forcefields to deal with, and early Zerg hasn't really got many buffs. The "NR15" comment is pretty funny, but is that not a reflection of the lack of options zerg has?
Swarm host is the answer for pressure I guess? Shame that it's one of the most boring units in the game.
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Would I prefer they don't make snap balance changes. Yes 100% agree.
Do I think the premises which they determine balance have been flawed from day 1. Yes I 100% do.
Let me put it this way...
Real balance logic would be: From minute 0 to minute 60 both players have a 100% equal opportunity to use superior play to win the game at all times. IE the only factor in a game that can sway strength in a players favor is the player themselves. While maybe not 100% this way BW was close enough that it allowed outstanding players to be in fact outstanding and entertaining as hell to watch to boot.
Blizzard balance logic: If every 10 minutes the player who can win the game changes, so long as the end result is they both have 30 minutes in which they can win, then the game is balanced. Oh that and during the 30 minutes they can win it has to at least be possible for the opponent to defend, but it's ok if it's harder to defend then to attack during those periods.
Blizzard would claim that sort of balance is 'interesting' I'd say that sort of balance is a restriction on creativity in games, and why every match up became extremely rigid in WoL.
TvP: Marine Marauder for T & dash of vikings later TvZ: Hellions with banshee or bio into full mech or tank/marine (at least some variety there) PvZ: All in or turtle to death ball. PvT: All in or turtle to death ball. ZvX: Turtle, defend (react to opponents builds), and poke until BL/Infestor
While I'm over simplifying a few examples any variation to the norms were typically a gimmick or extremely all in. I like the idea of not making snap judgments on balance, I just wish the balance goal from square 1 was a bit more aspiring.
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On March 05 2013 09:16 neoghaleon55 wrote: How boring. I've never seen such a long blog written over a non-change before.
Why not just be grateful they are communicating with us? No one is forcing you to read a long blog written over a non-change either.
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I haven't even watched that much but it seemed blatantly obvious that protoss air is overpowered(holy shit protoss actually op for once) vs zerg. And it's going to get worse, not better. Pros will become better at perfecting their ability to build up this OP composition.
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On March 05 2013 11:19 BlackPride wrote: And the answer to a composition shouldn't simply be, don't let Protoss get there. That's retarded. Why not?
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United Kingdom20149 Posts
The answer to BL, Infestor for a year or so was just dont let zerg get there ^^
Z has a lot of very good tools in HOTS, ultras, banes, vipers are strong. I dont know why speed hydras were nerfed really hard (in battle reports they gained +50% speed from muscular augments.. not +25% or +30%) but hydras are still pretty good in some compositions too. If you sit back and max out you wont do well, but you dont have to, and such behavior was suicide for toss players for a very long time (playing no rush 20)
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I think it's nice that Blizzard is waiting for some actual premier tournament results before making any more changes. Even if there are are some trends that might be imbalanced (skytoss, medivac boost abuse, etc) I'd rather that they give the top pros a chance to prove it to us before changing anything.
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Canada13372 Posts
On March 05 2013 14:50 travis wrote: I haven't even watched that much but it seemed blatantly obvious that protoss air is overpowered(holy shit protoss actually op for once) vs zerg. And it's going to get worse, not better. Pros will become better at perfecting their ability to build up this OP composition.
Across the board 20% DPS buff to void rays. Worst idea from Blizzard. Toggle charge? Not so bad. 0.5 attack speed? broken. They should nerf it to 0.55, see how it goes then bring it back to 0.6. But I think 0.6 would make them worthless once more. Or just reduce the damage of the charge attack because no charge 0.5 Attack Speed isn't the worst thing to happen to the game.
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On March 05 2013 14:51 Archas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 11:19 BlackPride wrote: And the answer to a composition shouldn't simply be, don't let Protoss get there. That's retarded. Why not?
"don't let them get there" is like...
How you play terran ever since sc2 came out. "Don't let toss get there" "don't let zerg free drone" etc etc...
Why should this change now? You need to find ways to pressure effectively, if you attak they need to make units, if they make units they can't freely go into their uber army so easily
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
I like this response from Blizzard. No need to rush things before having seen what the best players in the world can do with the units given some practice time.
But fuck hellbats, seriously
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Anybody else think its funny that skytoss is nearly the same type of composition as BL/infestor except storm does more damage than fungal and feedback can prevent caster dmg? Oh, and all of the units can hit both air and ground?
Think about it, ranged siege unit with the tempest/carrier. HT is equivalent of infestor. VR's and the other units counter most AA and provide a lot of dps. It is kind of like an improved BL/infestor. Except for protoss.
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On March 05 2013 14:58 Cyro wrote: The answer to BL, Infestor for a year or so was just dont let zerg get there ^^
Z has a lot of very good tools in HOTS, ultras, banes, vipers are strong. I dont know why speed hydras were nerfed really hard (in battle reports they gained +50% speed from muscular augments.. not +25% or +30%) but hydras are still pretty good in some compositions too. If you sit back and max out you wont do well, but you dont have to, and such behavior was suicide for toss players for a very long time (playing no rush 20)
tbh blizzard was stupid to let bl/corr/infestor remain so strong for so long and waitting until hots. If they had been smart they would have nerfed it, buffed zerg mid game units to compensate and it would have been better then just let it remain broken as shit till hots -_-.
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On March 05 2013 14:58 Cyro wrote: The answer to BL, Infestor for a year or so was just dont let zerg get there ^^
Z has a lot of very good tools in HOTS, ultras, banes, vipers are strong. I dont know why speed hydras were nerfed really hard (in battle reports they gained +50% speed from muscular augments.. not +25% or +30%) but hydras are still pretty good in some compositions too. If you sit back and max out you wont do well, but you dont have to, and such behavior was suicide for toss players for a very long time (playing no rush 20)
Which was a terrible answer that made for long, boring, and predictable games.
In HOTS it's too early to tell, but it if does mean "don't let protoss get to this point" and the game stagnates like it did in WoL then it is just bad design once again.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
How can there be nothing on the widow mine?
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United States7166 Posts
The thing about the pvz situation is, or any matchup where once one race gets to a certain composition, they don't lose, is that really the longer the game's been out, the more the games veer away from shorter games as players begin to learn now to properly defend vs everything without falling behind. As players sort this all out, the attacking players naturally cut this aggression out of their standard play and move towards expansive/defensive play. Meaning the game generally moves towards reaching the late endgame army, and away from more allins and quicker games. As the game progresses more and more to that point, it'll be more readily apparent as an issue requiring attention, and blizzard will be forced to act. Provided a reasonable solution is still not found. Who knows maybe mass infestors will once again be the solution, or queens, or a hydra based army
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On March 05 2013 09:12 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented. Took them forever to nerf terran in wol to at the beginning .
True but it took them 3 months to kill them later on
Seriously though, I believe that NOT rushing anything is a good idea...
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So, that's it huh. This is the widow mine that will make it to release. This is the oracle that will make it. Forgetting balance for a moment, is there anyone who believes those units are well designed?
far too much a focus on balance. I largely blame the community for that.
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i hope they take the route of buffing other races instead of nerfing this time
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Comparison of blink stalkers to medicac afterburners is unfair, because u still need an upgrade for blink. Medicacs need nothin. They automatically are able to be abused without cost
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On March 05 2013 17:03 BakedButters wrote: Comparison of blink stalkers to medicac afterburners is unfair, because u still need an upgrade for blink. Medicacs need nothin. They automatically are able to be abused without cost
I feel as though the cooldown is too short at the moment for such a powerful ability that requires no research. Increase the cooldown or disable healing while under the effects of afterburn.
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On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine? My thoughts exactly. As a Terran I haven't lost to a single Zerg while using it, aside from making a huge mistake macro-wise against Roach/Hydra/Viper- and even that takes a heck of a lot of resources, still takes an awful lot of damage from Widow Mines, and Bio + a couple supporting Tanks just crush it.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
I'm glad Blizzard is giving people a chance to work out how to counter strategies and units instead of giving in quickly like what happened a few times in WoL!
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I still hope they will release a big patch when the game comes out ! I feel like the swarm host is a bit too strong and that roach hydra play gives too much difficulties to protoss and terran !
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On March 05 2013 16:43 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:12 blade55555 wrote:On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented. Took them forever to nerf terran in wol to at the beginning . True but it took them 3 months to kill them later on Seriously though, I believe that NOT rushing anything is a good idea...
Well took till may of 2012 to "kill" them . That is a lot longer then 3 months
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine?
What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it).
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On March 05 2013 11:19 BlackPride wrote: What the heck?? No word on hellbats, that's the things everybody is angry about. And the answer to a composition shouldn't simply be, don't let Protoss get there. That's retarded.
LOL, you realize that this has been their approach to non-z vs z in WoL as well.
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Problems with hydras?! No problems with void rays, widow mines?
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i still dont trust them for me they did nothing but bad things to WoL with their patching and i guess it will be somehow the same in the later stages of HotS...
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On March 05 2013 10:58 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:26 Tachion wrote:On March 05 2013 10:24 EyesOnMe wrote: Come ON.....
Nerf the medivac boosters, none will play terran. the major things in terran arsenal are : Hellbat, widow mines and medivacs........so if they take medivacs, they will be weak like in WoL. Sniped by mutas, stalkers. It is exciting as a viewer to see the speed boost too It would be more exciting to watch if there was a (energy) cost associated with it, so you could see the decision making that goes into the boosts. What kind of decision making would that be? "Oh I'd better hope that they don't scout my medivac on the way, because then if I burn Boosters to make my drop work then it will be impotent, as even the most basic defenses will kill my attacking units without medivac support"? or "Oh I'd better hope that they don't scout my medivac on the way, because then if I burn Boosters to try and evade their units and retreat to my defenses then I will have been punished for trying to harass by making my Medivacs less effective for a period of time against oncoming attacks"? Either way, if an energy cost is introduced and a Terran uses Afterburners he loses. Blizzard wants to promote drop play, multitasking, and less deathballs: not punish it by rendering units impotent if Terran attempts drop harass and is scouted. There are far more effective anti-air and anti-drop options in HOTS than there were in WOL, including better Stargate play and free halucinations for scouting, Widow Mines and Mutalisks; We don't need to neuter drop play even further than it already is by making it a lose/lose situation for the Terran to even try when both Protoss and Zerg have the exact same and sometimes better options to scout it ahead of time or while in flight. Thats an interestingly narrow set of choices you've outlined for medivac boosters. You don't even know what sort of energy cost could be associated with it's usage. 10? 20? 50? You're already so pessimistic and closed minded about the idea that of course it's going to seem bad, you're assuming the worst possible scenario.
Even if it costs energy it's still a flat buff to the unit. Just having that choice is huge. Energy costs could always be tweaked, and I'm sure that people will always find situations in which to use it if the choice is there. Right now it's hard to even call it a choice. boost in, boost out. For it to really be interesting I want there to be decisions and style behind the units use.
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ye, there may be some (mostly) lategame stuff that could use some tuning, but the game is far more playable than wol was for the last year.
don't know if ruining wol post-may '11 and making it completely meaningless was a "hots-marketing-strategy" and I honestly doubt it, but still, super happy for the fresh air that hots has brought.
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On March 05 2013 11:19 BlackPride wrote: What the heck?? No word on hellbats, that's the things everybody is angry about. And the answer to a composition shouldn't simply be, don't let Protoss get there. That's retarded. Who is still angry about hellbats? I haven't seen many proper arguments against them.
It's seriously depressing how people are trying to turn the common opinion against every new or revamped terran unit. "Everyone is angry about reapers/medivacs/hellbats/mines", even when people haven't figured out any of it. Protoss and zerg units don't get half the amount of asinine whining terran units get, for some reason.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On March 05 2013 16:54 MilesTeg wrote:So, that's it huh. This is the widow mine that will make it to release. This is the oracle that will make it. Forgetting balance for a moment, is there anyone who believes those units are well designed? far too much a focus on balance. I largely blame the community for that.
I kind of agree. I don't remember who said it, but I read something a while ago from some game designer about asking "Is this fun and interesting?" first, and thinking about balance second. Although I think HoTS could potentially be much more interesting to watch for spectators, there is so much more that could have been more interesting.
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On March 05 2013 17:26 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 16:43 Douillos wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 blade55555 wrote:On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented. Took them forever to nerf terran in wol to at the beginning . True but it took them 3 months to kill them later on Seriously though, I believe that NOT rushing anything is a good idea... Well took till may of 2012 to "kill" them . That is a lot longer then 3 months
Yeah im just bitter 'cause thats when i did the switch from Zerg to Terran :D
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I usually hate Blizzard, but I totally agree with them waiting it out before making any actual changes. Just need to give people time to try to adapt.
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On March 05 2013 10:41 Iranon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:10 forsooth wrote:On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways. And how is that any different than blink? I didn't say it was a bad thing -- I explicity said "whether or not you think it's too strong..." for that reason. I think it's too early to call whether or not changes to afterburners are needed. I was responding to Cyro, whose statement that a cooldown was a "trade off" is just factually inaccurate. There is a trade off, as he said, based on when you choose to use it. Of course having the ability vs not having it is strictly better. The tension in it is situations where if use it now, you won't have it soon, and that gives a window to the other player. You see this all the time with drop harass decisions and it's very interactive. It will only get better as play is refined.
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On March 05 2013 18:05 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 16:54 MilesTeg wrote:So, that's it huh. This is the widow mine that will make it to release. This is the oracle that will make it. Forgetting balance for a moment, is there anyone who believes those units are well designed? far too much a focus on balance. I largely blame the community for that. I kind of agree. I don't remember who said it, but I read something a while ago from some game designer about asking "Is this fun and interesting?" first, and thinking about balance second. Although I think HoTS could potentially be much more interesting to watch for spectators, there is so much more that could have been more interesting.
Well I find HOTs pretty cool to watch. The GSTL pre season was a lot of fun. We continue in the "omg thats gotta hurt, terribl terrible dmg" register, but seing a nice mine go off or an oracle rape a mineral line gives me a big fuckin smile Like a big storm or a funghal would...
I just wonder how many people in this thread are critical of HOTs because they are Zergs and it's been complicated not to infestor themselves to victory.
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On March 05 2013 18:04 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 11:19 BlackPride wrote: What the heck?? No word on hellbats, that's the things everybody is angry about. And the answer to a composition shouldn't simply be, don't let Protoss get there. That's retarded. Who is still angry about hellbats? I haven't seen many proper arguments against them. It's seriously depressing how people are trying to turn the common opinion against every new or revamped terran unit. "Everyone is angry about reapers/medivacs/hellbats/mines", even when people haven't figured out any of it. Protoss and zerg units don't get half the amount of asinine whining terran units get, for some reason.
It's very logical if you think about it. Ask zergs what their best matchup is in WoL. It's ZvT. I know a ton of zergs who got a 80% winrate vs terran in wol. Can you believe that? 80% winrate in a matchup?! As a terran I can only dream about that.
Then there came HoTs. It took zergs 2 years to figure out their strength in wol (exception: stephano), so it's normal that zergs feel hopeless against terran: 1) they have to figure out their strength, and this will take a long time, 2) they were used to high winrates vs terran, and now that is gone. Reaction: complain.
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On March 05 2013 18:19 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 18:04 Bagi wrote:On March 05 2013 11:19 BlackPride wrote: What the heck?? No word on hellbats, that's the things everybody is angry about. And the answer to a composition shouldn't simply be, don't let Protoss get there. That's retarded. Who is still angry about hellbats? I haven't seen many proper arguments against them. It's seriously depressing how people are trying to turn the common opinion against every new or revamped terran unit. "Everyone is angry about reapers/medivacs/hellbats/mines", even when people haven't figured out any of it. Protoss and zerg units don't get half the amount of asinine whining terran units get, for some reason. It's very logical if you think about it. Ask zergs what their best matchup is in WoL. It's ZvT. I know a ton of zergs who got a 80% winrate vs terran in wol. Can you believe that? 80% winrate in a matchup?! As a terran I can only dream about that.
Very well said. For a Zerg who played in the dark WoL eras I can see how there could be a lot of entitlement for some of them going into a game without pre-nerf BL/Infestor.
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This post by Blizzard makes a lot of sense to me. How odd. Maybe I should stop smoking pot ...
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On March 05 2013 09:58 HeeroFX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:12 blade55555 wrote:On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented. Took them forever to nerf terran in wol to at the beginning . once it started they nerfed them every patch lol
And that was about 1-2 month after release. Definition of forever is quite hilarious for some people.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it).
Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg
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I'm a little concerned that they just essentially acknowledged that there is an unkillable composition in PvZ but because "pro's don't usually get there" that it's ok...
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On March 05 2013 19:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it). Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg
Not even if you rush little flock of mutas into their clumps so the widow mines obliterate their units too ?
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On March 05 2013 19:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it). Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg
O_o I'd pay you a cheeseburger for that replay
Somehow, I feel like attacking with swarmhosts might be a good idea vs an opponent that runs a reactor factory for that long. He's forced to build a lot of marauders due to the threat of roachspam as a reaction to mines, and lacks the gas to build both his medivac count and a significant number of tanks simultaneously.
Am I crazy or something?
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On March 05 2013 20:16 Mo0Rauder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 19:53 Godwrath wrote:On March 05 2013 19:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it). Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg Not even if you rush little flock of mutas into their clumps so the widow mines obliterate their units too ? Widow mines don't splash friendly units? Anyway, I still don't understand why Hellbat is a bio unit, it makes no sense at all. Maybe have an ability on the medevac that allows them to 'repair' for 2x energy cost of healig bio? I dunno just an idea. Still though, I predict in a few months we will all be in love with HoTS, and laughing at WoL. Widow Mines splash friendly units. The mutalisk idea is still kind of awful, though
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I still don't understand why Hellbat is a bio unit, it makes no sense at all. Maybe have an ability on the medevac that allows them to 'repair' for 2x energy cost of healig bio? I dunno just an idea.
Still though, I predict in a few months we will all be in love with HoTS, and laughing at WoL.
edit: my stupidity removed.
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On March 05 2013 20:16 Mo0Rauder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 19:53 Godwrath wrote:On March 05 2013 19:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it). Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg Not even if you rush little flock of mutas into their clumps so the widow mines obliterate their units too ? Widow mines don't splash friendly units? they do, they dont splash other widow mines, thats it
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On March 05 2013 20:18 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 20:16 Mo0Rauder wrote:On March 05 2013 19:53 Godwrath wrote:On March 05 2013 19:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it). Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg Not even if you rush little flock of mutas into their clumps so the widow mines obliterate their units too ? Widow mines don't splash friendly units? Anyway, I still don't understand why Hellbat is a bio unit, it makes no sense at all. Maybe have an ability on the medevac that allows them to 'repair' for 2x energy cost of healig bio? I dunno just an idea. Still though, I predict in a few months we will all be in love with HoTS, and laughing at WoL. Widow Mines splash friendly units. The mutalisk idea is still kind of awful, though
I have tons of other crazy ideas, but mostly rely on how useful would be ravens on midgame on zvt :d
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On March 05 2013 11:05 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways. Where is the drawback to warpgate?
enemy can see what sort of unit you're warping in? and those units can be attacked while warping in. Admittedly I don't agree with the buff to not have those units warping in take extra dmg
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Austria1350 Posts
On March 05 2013 09:33 forumtext wrote: Have not follow Hots before. Can someone please tell me if the game still 1 huge battle -> GG? I am still undecided if I should buy it.
Blizzard is trying to force the players to split their units across the map with things likes mine and better P-air-harras. But you can still do WoL all ins :/
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Thank god, that the Protoss air isn't gonna get destroyed and they understand the economical issues ^_^
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It's good that they're listening to the feedback and I think they're taking the correct action in waiting for more tournaments and experience to build up before further action. I just hope the next patch gives more diversity to zerg players without affecting too much balance.
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The strength of Protoss air, especially against Zerg.
We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered. Does anyone else not see a problem with this whole statement? Being that Force Fields are already relatively strong versus early Zerg aggression, and the Protoss also gets the added benefit of the Mothership Core's defensive spells in HotS?
I mean, it's amusing to hear them say "lol no nr15 noob", but is there any real serious early aggression Zerg can apply without having any additional early-game tools? Especially when you take into account that not only is Skytoss obviously composed of air units against a ground-only early game, but Void Ray DPS was also buffed both against Roaches and Hydras.
I'm doubtful of this just by nature of the changes to Protoss and Zerg, but also curious if Blizzard's declaration that Zerg needs to be aggressive holds any merit. I only played a little bit of HotS and watched a bit of pro streams.
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On March 05 2013 20:18 Mo0Rauder wrote: I still don't understand why Hellbat is a bio unit, it makes no sense at all. Maybe have an ability on the medevac that allows them to 'repair' for 2x energy cost of healig bio? I dunno just an idea.
Still though, I predict in a few months we will all be in love with HoTS, and laughing at WoL.
edit: my stupidity removed.
It would be way better to just make it mechanical again and tweak its health or damage instead of giving it unlogical tags. I mean, what does this tag achieve? Archons do more damage to them and they can be sniped?!
Why is there still no try to go back to real time instead of blizzard time?
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What do you do on maps like akilon flats when protoss goes air and you can't punish it because of the way the map works and how easy it is to defend 3 bases for protoss, oh wait you just die late-game. Still can't believe they aren't going to nerf the void ray
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On March 05 2013 21:23 Tropical Bob wrote:Show nested quote +The strength of Protoss air, especially against Zerg.
We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered. Does anyone else not see a problem with this whole statement? Being that Force Fields are already relatively strong versus early Zerg aggression, and the Protoss also gets the added benefit of the Mothership Core's defensive spells in HotS? I mean, it's amusing to hear them say "lol no nr15 noob", but is there any real serious early aggression Zerg can apply without having any additional early-game tools? Especially when you take into account that not only is Skytoss obviously composed of air units against a ground-only early game, but Void Ray DPS was also buffed both against Roaches and Hydras. I'm doubtful of this just by nature of the changes to Protoss and Zerg, but also curious if Blizzard's declaration that Zerg needs to be aggressive holds any merit. I only played a little bit of HotS and watched a bit of pro streams.
No, most people agree with you that the match up will develop into protoss turtleing till getting perfect army composition and just kill the zerg then (like broodlord infestor). The thing is, give it time anyways, there are many things that could surprise us.
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Blizz incompetent as usual. Why wait until it becomes 100% obvious that a composition is broken if it's already 90% evident?
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On March 05 2013 21:37 Grumbels wrote: Blizz incompetent as usual. Why wait until it becomes 100% obvious that a composition is broken if it's already 90% evident?
Because a 10 % fail margin is pretty big. I do however think that they should adress the fact that Voidrays and Tempests are two of the most boring units in the game.
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On March 05 2013 21:23 Tropical Bob wrote:Show nested quote +The strength of Protoss air, especially against Zerg.
We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered. Does anyone else not see a problem with this whole statement? Being that Force Fields are already relatively strong versus early Zerg aggression, and the Protoss also gets the added benefit of the Mothership Core's defensive spells in HotS? I mean, it's amusing to hear them say "lol no nr15 noob", but is there any real serious early aggression Zerg can apply without having any additional early-game tools? Especially when you take into account that not only is Skytoss obviously composed of air units against a ground-only early game, but Void Ray DPS was also buffed both against Roaches and Hydras. I'm doubtful of this just by nature of the changes to Protoss and Zerg, but also curious if Blizzard's declaration that Zerg needs to be aggressive holds any merit. I only played a little bit of HotS and watched a bit of pro streams.
Well, protoss in WoL had very few early game options vs competent zergs as well. I think the key will be whether zergs can find their version of immortal/sentry. Because without immortal/sentry or at least the threat of immortal sentry, PvZ would have been much much worse (a lot of the early timings that work for P at the end of WoL was due to Z being greedy to counter the immortal/sentry)
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On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote:
Additionally, the top 30 for GM league is currently made up of 7 Zerg, 13 Terran, and 10 Protoss players, and the win/loss ratios for Heart of the Swarm tournament matches thus far have been solid for each race.
We feel the game’s balance is in a good place as we head into release, but that doesn’t mean we think it’s absolutely perfect.
I guess the problem I have with this statement is that, if they really use top 30 GM as a metric, then they're ok with a 2:1 racial imbalance. Not that I'd use top 30 GM as a metric, but that you'd think a distribution of 43%, 33%, 23% is 'in a good place' is beyond me.
As far as tournament results go, I'd be interested in knowing which tournaments they're looking at. I assumed the most recent high-level tournaments would be used (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_6/HotS_Invitational/Korean_Online_Qualifier or http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_MLG_Winter_Championship/Showdowns ) which doesn't appear to be the case or there are tournaments that I'm just not thinking about.
At a high-level, I guess I'm happy that they're not just going around and nerfing specific strategies into the ground because people bitch and moan. However, it'd be great to see them actually add additional tools to properly deal with the things that they've added to the game for each race.
Our general thinking on new units and abilities is that using them will always be learned faster than defending against them for obvious reasons. Because we’re already seeing some players defend against the new Medivacs extremely well, we definitely want to wait on this feedback to really make sure that it is in fact overpowered before making a change.
This is said about things like the Medivac but what about Swarm Hosts? Mind you, they have good use ZvP but if this is the general thinking on how new units/abilities function do they think Swarm Hosts will simply get worse over time? I surely hope not.
In the end I'm just confused by the logic presented by them.
edit: fixed link
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Yeah top30 gm is a poor metric, people are just fooling around and trying to figure things out, it's not exactly a competitive field.
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oh yeah I forgot to point out how ridiculous it appears to me that they arbitrarily sampled exactly the top 30 gm? What? All that makes me think is "and what are the numbers like outside of your very distinct sample size?" Makes me feel insulted, like they really did just try to come up with another round of formletter "ah ur whining and we're gonna wait cuz we're insufferably optimistic" and tossed on some bogus stats to top it off this time.
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On March 05 2013 21:33 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 21:23 Tropical Bob wrote:The strength of Protoss air, especially against Zerg.
We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered. Does anyone else not see a problem with this whole statement? Being that Force Fields are already relatively strong versus early Zerg aggression, and the Protoss also gets the added benefit of the Mothership Core's defensive spells in HotS? I mean, it's amusing to hear them say "lol no nr15 noob", but is there any real serious early aggression Zerg can apply without having any additional early-game tools? Especially when you take into account that not only is Skytoss obviously composed of air units against a ground-only early game, but Void Ray DPS was also buffed both against Roaches and Hydras. I'm doubtful of this just by nature of the changes to Protoss and Zerg, but also curious if Blizzard's declaration that Zerg needs to be aggressive holds any merit. I only played a little bit of HotS and watched a bit of pro streams. No, most people agree with you that the match up will develop into protoss turtleing till getting perfect army composition and just kill the zerg then (like broodlord infestor). The thing is, give it time anyways, there are many things that could surprise us.
Having watched some games at IEM, I don't think it will go the same way that BL-infestor went in WoL. Having watched YongHwa vs Nerchio, YongHwa had to fight 3-4 full Broodlord + other-zerg-non-sense armies on his way to the Mythic Skytoss army. He won the game with awesome control and some really well timed counter attacks, but never fully reached the promised land of unlimited storms, tempest and voidrays. The game was awesome and the battles were fun, with ony two colossi at any givin time.
Unlike the the BL, infestor army, protoss cannot build their high tech units in the middle of the map, protected by a mob of casters than can root the entire army while damaging it and making free units. I think protoss will aim for that promised land, but without fungle, it will be much harder to get to with a massive window where the opponent can reset the super army clock.
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If you're David Kim, would you ever bother to listen to the community again? After they coerced you with ceaseless whining into creating a 'balanced' map pool, which stagnated the game for a year and virtually killed it off completely?
Then again, maybe the community did Davey a favor. As the player base shrinks, he'll have to endure fewer and fewer balance complaints.
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well they basically repeated what they say since weeks: "lets wait and see, we wait for pro tournaments". which is fine. at least they notice there are problems with hydras sucking, skytoss + HT being insanely strong and medivac-speed having no single downside.
whats a bit stupid is them speaking about people havent figured out how to counter such stuff because people also havent figured out how to abuse skytoss, medivacspeed etc. to the full potential so that goes both sides.
think we´ll just have to wait. really hope they dont nerf skytoss but just outright buff hydras finally and make BLs less hardcountered and finally Z will be in a much better state and they can start doing little things like making nydus, neural parasite or ovidrop viable.
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On March 06 2013 03:04 Decendos wrote: well they basically repeated what they say since weeks: "lets wait and see, we wait for pro tournaments". which is fine. at least they notice there are problems with hydras sucking, skytoss + HT being insanely strong and medivac-speed having no single downside.
whats a bit stupid is them speaking about people havent figured out how to counter such stuff because people also havent figured out how to abuse skytoss, medivacspeed etc. to the full potential so that goes both sides.
think we´ll just have to wait. really hope they dont nerf skytoss but just outright buff hydras finally and make BLs less hardcountered and finally Z will be in a much better state and they can start doing little things like making nydus, neural parasite or ovidrop viable.
Reverting the WoL beta nerfs to the hydra would be a good step in the right direction, or at least give it the +1 range by default
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as others have said, its a good thing to approach this slowly rather than rush into things.
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On March 05 2013 21:52 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: No word on mech TvP :[
Kinda feels like a lost cause, can understand why they don't want to change it now when the games release is just around the corner but it beats me why the only change they have made to the Siege Tank during hots beta is free Siege upgrade. Is that really they only thing they came up with? Would have liked to see them try + damage to shields =/
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On March 06 2013 03:04 Decendos wrote: well they basically repeated what they say since weeks: "lets wait and see, we wait for pro tournaments". which is fine. at least they notice there are problems with hydras sucking, skytoss + HT being insanely strong and medivac-speed having no single downside.
whats a bit stupid is them speaking about people havent figured out how to counter such stuff because people also havent figured out how to abuse skytoss, medivacspeed etc. to the full potential so that goes both sides.
think we´ll just have to wait. really hope they dont nerf skytoss but just outright buff hydras finally and make BLs less hardcountered and finally Z will be in a much better state and they can start doing little things like making nydus, neural parasite or ovidrop viable. I kind of agree but I doubt we'll see more nydas in hots than in WoL unless they change it more.
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On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented.
HAH
Watched HoTS for real during the IEM games today, game seems relatively balanced and very exciting. Cannot wait to play it once it's out.
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It might be a good idea to wait until IEM & MLG for their next patch anyway, regardless of the current balance situation.
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On March 06 2013 03:44 Zorgaz wrote:Kinda feels like a lost cause, can understand why they don't want to change it now when the games release is just around the corner but it beats me why the only change they have made to the Siege Tank during hots beta is free Siege upgrade. Is that really they only thing they came up with? Would have liked to see them try + damage to shields =/
If mech TvP is ever going to work, it'll be thanks the new units they introduced in this expansion, and not some relic of the past (sic) like the siege tanks. That's how stubborn they're, they like their new toys.
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I really don't like the new ZvT. Early reapers so dominate that even if you open pool first, you're guaranteed to take some damage.
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I really like Blizzard's attitude. I have a feeling HotS will be a much better spectator sport than WoL.
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On March 05 2013 19:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it). Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg
i dont mean to player bash you ret, because i respect you and had a great time watching your matches earlier at IEM (You made a new fan today. In a big way for your win over MC. your game on daybreak was very impressive!), but it seems to me that you have less experience playing against this strategy than some of the korean zergs i have watched in GSTL preseason. in your match vs yoda on ohana, he cut scvs at 8 supply, and proxied you with reapers. you decided to go for a bane bust after scouting a single factory with no addon. it just seemed like you already had the game won, and then lost because you refused to accept your advantage and continue to pressure even after a failed bane attack with zergling reinforcements. when the wall was breached, you allowed yoda to skate his scvs to his bunker, and followed them with your zerglings instead of forcing a lift on his main CC which was not defended and couldn't be defended, or forcing a cancel on a building CC or delaying it by killing the scv itself. it just seemed like a WOL strategy trying to be forced against a HOTS defense, which is pretty understandable considering how in chaotic games its really easy to go on autopilot and play "standard". if that second ling swell was drones, you take that game 9/10 times. Yoda had a LOT of luck,but this series shouted unfamiliarity more than it did imbalance to me
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On March 05 2013 21:23 Tropical Bob wrote:Show nested quote +The strength of Protoss air, especially against Zerg.
We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered. Does anyone else not see a problem with this whole statement? Being that Force Fields are already relatively strong versus early Zerg aggression, and the Protoss also gets the added benefit of the Mothership Core's defensive spells in HotS? ...but is there any real serious early aggression Zerg can apply without having any additional early-game tools?...
Welcome to how Terrans have felt since queen patch
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Still waiting on rax before depot to come back.
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On March 05 2013 19:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it). Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg
Ling/Bane/Muta is awful against bio + mines, the 3 units are useless against that composition imho. There are no tanks to snipe, the banes will be wasted against marauder/hellbat and you can't kill mines in the heat of the battle without losing big chunks of units, even with detection.
I have seen zergs streaming beat that comp with hydra/shosts, don't really know if is the best answer tought.
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On March 05 2013 09:12 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented. Took them forever to nerf terran in wol to at the beginning . Ummmm no. Bunker changes every day is all I remember
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On March 06 2013 17:41 Kal_rA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:12 blade55555 wrote:On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented. Took them forever to nerf terran in wol to at the beginning . Ummmm no. Bunker changes every day is all I remember
close position metalopolis 2rax before depots for months with 10% winrate in that position is what i remember
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On March 06 2013 06:26 Demicore wrote: I really like Blizzard's attitude. I have a feeling HotS will be a much better spectator sport than WoL. Hope so.. I'm just worried that the window has passed. The hype behind the game died down so much since recently.. Dunno if people would be interested enough to rejoin the scene just cause of a couple new units (unless every game is batshit crazy awesome). Got a feeling it'll resurge for six months or so before ebbing away again . Hope I'm wrong though..
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On March 06 2013 03:03 jdsowa wrote: If you're David Kim, would you ever bother to listen to the community again? After they coerced you with ceaseless whining into creating a 'balanced' map pool, which stagnated the game for a year and virtually killed it off completely?
Then again, maybe the community did Davey a favor. As the player base shrinks, he'll have to endure fewer and fewer balance complaints.
If the feedback was bad for the game then he should have just explained it. You act as if the community made all the changes to WoL. At the end of the day, if WoL was good enough then people never would have complained so much.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On March 06 2013 03:44 Zorgaz wrote:Kinda feels like a lost cause, can understand why they don't want to change it now when the games release is just around the corner but it beats me why the only change they have made to the Siege Tank during hots beta is free Siege upgrade. Is that really they only thing they came up with? Would have liked to see them try + damage to shields =/
I think if anything they'll add plus damage to shields when they release 0 pros are going mech at tournaments.
It's not that absurd of a change and I think they genuinly want to give Terrans more options against toss and toss more options against Terran. It's a small enough change to make to make people want to go mech, but currently there are actually mech pushes you can do to punish certain plays like fast 3 bases (6 fact all-in works really damn well), it's just currently most of the pros who are playing the game are currently the ones who love Bio.
Wait for MVP, Flash and maybe Fantasy to pick up mech, I think they'll atleast prepare some mech builds.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51300 Posts
All they need to do is make afterburners an upgrade you get via tech lab or even armory depends which one; if they take it out of the game completlely we will get a worst game as a result.
Protoss air is only "too" strong imo when it has 3-3-3, they could look to address shield upgrade first on the air, maybe remove it or something i don't know.
Hydra could use another speed or movement boost so they can be micro'd a bit better, borderline marine micro with them, but obviously don't turn them into marines xD
I don't see an issue with Oracles ? Saw them being used by mc in an all in and looked great? Free observer, can hit ground, destroy SCVs for fun? I think they are a good unit.
The only unit i think is a bit OP (a bit) is widow mines, i think they do a lot of damage for what they are xD but again i hope they don't change them as it makes the game fun!
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On March 06 2013 06:26 Demicore wrote: I really like Blizzard's attitude. I have a feeling HotS will be a much better spectator sport than WoL. I don't like it. They lost me as customer and player and I am a huge Starcraft Lore/setting fan.
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great to see blizzard relaxing with the nerfs/buffs and letting the game develop more before any big changes are made. glad to take it a bit slower
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On March 06 2013 18:46 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 06:26 Demicore wrote: I really like Blizzard's attitude. I have a feeling HotS will be a much better spectator sport than WoL. I don't like it. They lost me as customer and player and I am a huge Starcraft Lore/setting fan.
Why?
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On March 06 2013 18:46 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 06:26 Demicore wrote: I really like Blizzard's attitude. I have a feeling HotS will be a much better spectator sport than WoL. I don't like it. They lost me as customer and player and I am a huge Starcraft Lore/setting fan.
I don't get how you could possibly think HoTS is worse to watch than WoL. There's so many improvements to allow people to show their skill (Oracles, faster hydras, mines, swarmhosts and more) Most of the newer stuff rewards skill and less deathbally play and PvZ is about 100 times better to watch.
Could you possibly explain why?
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On March 06 2013 19:21 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 18:46 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2013 06:26 Demicore wrote: I really like Blizzard's attitude. I have a feeling HotS will be a much better spectator sport than WoL. I don't like it. They lost me as customer and player and I am a huge Starcraft Lore/setting fan. I don't get how you could possibly think HoTS is worse to watch than WoL. There's so many improvements to allow people to show their skill (Oracles, faster hydras, mines, swarmhosts and more) Most of the newer stuff rewards skill and less deathbally play and PvZ is about 100 times better to watch. Could you possibly explain why? Not just PvZ(which was the most boring match-up, I agree), but every match-up is a lot better and more interesting to watch. I've watched game 2 of Vibe vs. Illusion yesterday, damn, what a great game, constant action all over the map, from start of the game to the end, and it was longer game. Game is a lot more active than it was before.
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On March 06 2013 19:39 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 19:21 Qikz wrote:On March 06 2013 18:46 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2013 06:26 Demicore wrote: I really like Blizzard's attitude. I have a feeling HotS will be a much better spectator sport than WoL. I don't like it. They lost me as customer and player and I am a huge Starcraft Lore/setting fan. I don't get how you could possibly think HoTS is worse to watch than WoL. There's so many improvements to allow people to show their skill (Oracles, faster hydras, mines, swarmhosts and more) Most of the newer stuff rewards skill and less deathbally play and PvZ is about 100 times better to watch. Could you possibly explain why? Not just PvZ(which was the most boring match-up, I agree), but every match-up is a lot better and more interesting to watch. I've watched game 2 of Vibe vs. Illusion yesterday, damn, what a great game, constant action all over the map, from start of the game to the end, and it was longer game. Game is a lot more active than it was before.
well, right now WoL is much better to watch, because the level of play is much, much, much, much, much higher. As people just know what to do, while a lot of HotS games come down to players just not having a clue how to use their own units properly or have no clue how to play HotS at all.
IEM spoilers: + Show Spoiler +e.g: Snute's swarm host play seemed very bad. No retreating after spawning... MC seems to have no clue at all... Just rolling over against widow mines and swarm hosts without any real resistance.
stuff like that, which makes a lot of progames feel like being played by bronzies that use no hotkeys and have to read through ability texts while playing.
But yeah, HotS looks like it will be very good for the gameplay in the longrun.
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On March 06 2013 19:21 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 18:46 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2013 06:26 Demicore wrote: I really like Blizzard's attitude. I have a feeling HotS will be a much better spectator sport than WoL. I don't like it. They lost me as customer and player and I am a huge Starcraft Lore/setting fan. I don't get how you could possibly think HoTS is worse to watch than WoL. There's so many improvements to allow people to show their skill (Oracles, faster hydras, mines, swarmhosts and more) Most of the newer stuff rewards skill and less deathbally play and PvZ is about 100 times better to watch. Could you possibly explain why? I didn't say I will not watch it. Maybe the problem was the quote I used before my post. My point was I don't want to buy HotS or play MP. I will still watch streams for a while to see if I can have fun watching it.
And Why? 1. Not enough changes. Lots of promises, poor delivery (no changes to mech, no fixes to overseer, corruptor or nydus, carrier only got a small change, colossi still same in the game, Thor still there basically unchanged) 2. What was changed is mostly bad. Zerg: Hydra only got speed upgrade which should have been there in WoL. Ultra charge which was cool was exchanged for bit of numbers change of damage. Swarm Host is such a pathetic Lurker wannabe, he is 33% of reason I don't want to play HotS Zerg. Infestor Fungal and IT were raped (probably should have but maybe done in another way) but his mind control was left at its useless nerfed state. Burrow and overlord speed at hatch tech is not enough. Only good things are Viper and Spore without evolution chamber. And muta changes are cool but would not be needed if other stuff was done right. In addition to this I was expecting some more creep mechanics except for graphics changes. There was so much cool stuff they could have added and they fucked up. I will not even go into Toss or Terran, they fucked up less but they still did.
I hope all this is enough of a reason...
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On March 06 2013 19:21 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 18:46 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2013 06:26 Demicore wrote: I really like Blizzard's attitude. I have a feeling HotS will be a much better spectator sport than WoL. I don't like it. They lost me as customer and player and I am a huge Starcraft Lore/setting fan. I don't get how you could possibly think HoTS is worse to watch than WoL. There's so many improvements to allow people to show their skill (Oracles, faster hydras, mines, swarmhosts and more) Most of the newer stuff rewards skill and less deathbally play and PvZ is about 100 times better to watch. Could you possibly explain why? Quick look at his post history reveals a bunch of balance complaints and a desire for zerg to be OP at the start of the expansion the way terran was at the start of WOL.
Go figure.
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On March 06 2013 19:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 19:39 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 06 2013 19:21 Qikz wrote:On March 06 2013 18:46 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2013 06:26 Demicore wrote: I really like Blizzard's attitude. I have a feeling HotS will be a much better spectator sport than WoL. I don't like it. They lost me as customer and player and I am a huge Starcraft Lore/setting fan. I don't get how you could possibly think HoTS is worse to watch than WoL. There's so many improvements to allow people to show their skill (Oracles, faster hydras, mines, swarmhosts and more) Most of the newer stuff rewards skill and less deathbally play and PvZ is about 100 times better to watch. Could you possibly explain why? Not just PvZ(which was the most boring match-up, I agree), but every match-up is a lot better and more interesting to watch. I've watched game 2 of Vibe vs. Illusion yesterday, damn, what a great game, constant action all over the map, from start of the game to the end, and it was longer game. Game is a lot more active than it was before. well, right now WoL is much better to watch, because the level of play is much, much, much, much, much higher. As people just know what to do, while a lot of HotS games come down to players just not having a clue how to use their own units properly or have no clue how to play HotS at all. IEM spoilers:+ Show Spoiler +e.g: Snute's swarm host play seemed very bad. No retreating after spawning... MC seems to have no clue at all... Just rolling over against widow mines and swarm hosts without any real resistance.
stuff like that, which makes a lot of progames feel like being played by bronzies that use no hotkeys and have to read through ability texts while playing.
But yeah, HotS looks like it will be very good for the gameplay in the longrun.
That is true for some players, but not for others that have been playing beta almost from the start. There are also a lot of Koreans that played Beta.
+ Show Spoiler +I still didn't watch a single IEM game, but you gave a worse example with Snute. All of his HotS games were horrible to watch. He is stuck in WoL metagame, he is massing Infestors and was losing to basically everything, since Infestors are a lot more of an support units right now, they are not core anymore.
If you really want to watch some other games, watch Illusion vs. Vibe and Goswser vs. Caliber series, and tell me they are not much more interesting than WoL. But WoL started to get interesting near the end when Infestors got nerfed, since we see Hydras and Mutas again.
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Seems all fine with me to let it play out more, though i think mass air Protoss vs Zerg is utterly boring to watch as a spectator and i pray it's not going to be to succesful or Protoss just switched places with Zerg in the end game.
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On March 06 2013 19:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 19:39 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 06 2013 19:21 Qikz wrote:On March 06 2013 18:46 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2013 06:26 Demicore wrote: I really like Blizzard's attitude. I have a feeling HotS will be a much better spectator sport than WoL. I don't like it. They lost me as customer and player and I am a huge Starcraft Lore/setting fan. I don't get how you could possibly think HoTS is worse to watch than WoL. There's so many improvements to allow people to show their skill (Oracles, faster hydras, mines, swarmhosts and more) Most of the newer stuff rewards skill and less deathbally play and PvZ is about 100 times better to watch. Could you possibly explain why? Not just PvZ(which was the most boring match-up, I agree), but every match-up is a lot better and more interesting to watch. I've watched game 2 of Vibe vs. Illusion yesterday, damn, what a great game, constant action all over the map, from start of the game to the end, and it was longer game. Game is a lot more active than it was before. well, right now WoL is much better to watch, because the level of play is much, much, much, much, much higher. As people just know what to do, while a lot of HotS games come down to players just not having a clue how to use their own units properly or have no clue how to play HotS at all. IEM spoilers:+ Show Spoiler +e.g: Snute's swarm host play seemed very bad. No retreating after spawning... MC seems to have no clue at all... Just rolling over against widow mines and swarm hosts without any real resistance.
stuff like that, which makes a lot of progames feel like being played by bronzies that use no hotkeys and have to read through ability texts while playing.
But yeah, HotS looks like it will be very good for the gameplay in the longrun. I agree with this. Haven't seen too much games, but what i noticed was a lot of unrefined builds and some misunderstanding on how to use units (it seemed that way). Although saying it's like bronze is a little harsh, i can see what you mean.
Besides, almost all use of new units is saw gave me a positive feeling in the sense that their potential seemed to be high.
I completely agree with the blizzard post on balance. I do feel some things are very strong, but from what i saw, i don't think any change (read: nerf) is justified at this moment. + Show Spoiler +It doesn't seem bad to filter some bad zergs
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On March 06 2013 11:40 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 19:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it). Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg i dont mean to player bash you ret, because i respect you and had a great time watching your matches earlier at IEM (You made a new fan today. In a big way for your win over MC. your game on daybreak was very impressive!), but it seems to me that you have less experience playing against this strategy than some of the korean zergs i have watched in GSTL preseason. in your match vs yoda on ohana, he cut scvs at 8 supply, and proxied you with reapers. you decided to go for a bane bust after scouting a single factory with no addon. it just seemed like you already had the game won, and then lost because you refused to accept your advantage and continue to pressure even after a failed bane attack with zergling reinforcements. when the wall was breached, you allowed yoda to skate his scvs to his bunker, and followed them with your zerglings instead of forcing a lift on his main CC which was not defended and couldn't be defended, or forcing a cancel on a building CC or delaying it by killing the scv itself. it just seemed like a WOL strategy trying to be forced against a HOTS defense, which is pretty understandable considering how in chaotic games its really easy to go on autopilot and play "standard". if that second ling swell was drones, you take that game 9/10 times. Yoda had a LOT of luck,but this series shouted unfamiliarity more than it did imbalance to me
I don't remember there being 20+ widow mines in that game. Since Ret's IEM game isn't relevant to his above statement I don't understand why you feel this is an appropriate place to comment on the loss.
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Its funny how even most of the pro's whine about balance without giving any suggestions how to change the unit. Thats pretty retarded tbh. It once again seems to involve Terran units, they allready removed one of them so I guess the easiest route to take is just to remove afterburners, windowmines, hellbats and reapers.
Zerg and Protoss can have their units, terran is fine with wotlk shizz. Only Korean T matters, right.
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Blizz also promised to change neural parasite, but they didn't.
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Classic Blizz, slow as usual.
High level P match ups pov:
Speedvacs in PvT are op. Please if you read, remember this: Korean T's will rape apart Protoss with classic mmm powered with current speedvacs.
Hellbats, are too strong as overall all purpose unit (talking for every match up here), but blizz seems to love strong antiground 1a units.
And in the PvZ match up, the stupid "most boring pro match up in WoL" mechanic still there!! The protoss stills playing from behind since minute 4, leading into a significant production/economy/map control lead for the Z (that's why calling skytoss op is retarded, Z can have 10 corruptors by the time P have 2 voids). P needed some way of harass to slow down Z eco/production like the Terrans do, but that mechanic/unint never showed up in Hots. Why in the world an unpunisheable 4 min 3rd STILL posbile?? That is the main cancer in the match up. This is not Bw, queens make that 3rd much more significant. This is the main reason the match up is almost no back and forth.
And I'm not even mentioning how dumb are new mutas: Every time the P does not go for 6-7 min stargate, you have to pray for the Z not going mutas, or is unposible to go past midgame, or you have to all-in. Ground is not able to handle pro level muta cloud anymore.
Again, I'm talking just at higher levels.
Oh, and after THAT much tweaking, Oracles ended up being a barelly used, cheesy (so easy to defend once figured out, so useless in the long term)unit, in the current design. (New Reapers cost efficiency do much more slowing Z eco than Oracles...)
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On March 06 2013 23:48 Belha wrote:
Why in the world an unpunisheable 4 min 3rd STILL posbile??
Because it's the only response to an untouchable forge fast expand?
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On March 07 2013 00:06 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 23:48 Belha wrote:
Why in the world an unpunisheable 4 min 3rd STILL posbile?? Because it's the only response to an untouchable forge fast expand? Believe me, any protoss would love to go for a non-forge buid efficiently denies such a big Z eco/prod lead.
Edit: Meh not worth it to make a long response to such question.
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On March 07 2013 00:06 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 23:48 Belha wrote:
Why in the world an unpunisheable 4 min 3rd STILL posbile?? Because it's the only response to an untouchable forge fast expand?
7 pool into burrow-roaches
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On March 05 2013 12:28 bobsire wrote: medivac boost is not OP. Blizz is right... learn to deal with it instead of complaining. Coming from a terran. Sounds fucking legit.
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Papua New Guinea1053 Posts
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On March 06 2013 21:37 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 11:40 c0sm0naut wrote:On March 05 2013 19:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it). Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg i dont mean to player bash you ret, because i respect you and had a great time watching your matches earlier at IEM (You made a new fan today. In a big way for your win over MC. your game on daybreak was very impressive!), but it seems to me that you have less experience playing against this strategy than some of the korean zergs i have watched in GSTL preseason. in your match vs yoda on ohana, he cut scvs at 8 supply, and proxied you with reapers. you decided to go for a bane bust after scouting a single factory with no addon. it just seemed like you already had the game won, and then lost because you refused to accept your advantage and continue to pressure even after a failed bane attack with zergling reinforcements. when the wall was breached, you allowed yoda to skate his scvs to his bunker, and followed them with your zerglings instead of forcing a lift on his main CC which was not defended and couldn't be defended, or forcing a cancel on a building CC or delaying it by killing the scv itself. it just seemed like a WOL strategy trying to be forced against a HOTS defense, which is pretty understandable considering how in chaotic games its really easy to go on autopilot and play "standard". if that second ling swell was drones, you take that game 9/10 times. Yoda had a LOT of luck,but this series shouted unfamiliarity more than it did imbalance to me I don't remember there being 20+ widow mines in that game. Since Ret's IEM game isn't relevant to his above statement I don't understand why you feel this is an appropriate place to comment on the loss.
sure, that's fair enough. if he opens the door to comments on widow mines by calling it impossible to lose with 20+ as wel as bio, i feel this is an appropriate place to address it. i hope you or ret are not offended, that wasn't my intended purpose of the comment.
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I still think widow mines are bad because they are super punishing and you can just die if you mess up with them.
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On March 08 2013 07:26 HeeroFX wrote: I still think widow mines are bad because they are super punishing and you can just die if you mess up with them.
That's like saying marines are bad/super punishing if you don't split them vs banelings......
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Why does the community seem so willing to knee-jerk demand nerfs to everything interesting in the game before it's had a chance to properly develop?
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On March 08 2013 07:30 TotalBiscuit wrote: Why does the community seem so willing to knee-jerk demand nerfs to everything interesting in the game before it's had a chance to properly develop?
i agree, would prefer if they buff other races instead this time
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On March 08 2013 07:30 TotalBiscuit wrote: Why does the community seem so willing to knee-jerk demand nerfs to everything interesting in the game before it's had a chance to properly develop?
That's a LOADED question.
Quick answer: immaturity
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Most people complaining only care about themselves I presume and call for nerfs to all things that aren't from their race.
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I'd rather everything be op, than everything nerfed to the ground.
also this game hasn't even been out yet (with even the latest beta patch) for 3months. I'm not inclined to consider anything op until quite awhile has passed, considering the last year of WoL......
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4713 Posts
Oh this is disgusting, the game isn't even officially released yet, the pro players haven't even fully grasped all the changes and their implications, and already people are asking for nerfs. Just wait it out till 1 or 2 months after release and if its still an issue then proper measures can be taken with the data that gets collected in the meanwhile.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 08 2013 07:26 HeeroFX wrote: I still think widow mines are bad because they are super punishing and you can just die if you mess up with them.
Good, higher skill ceiling the better.
On March 08 2013 07:15 synd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 12:28 bobsire wrote: medivac boost is not OP. Blizz is right... learn to deal with it instead of complaining. Coming from a terran. Sounds fucking legit.
FFS I'm getting tired of people complaining about balance, the game isn't even fricking out yet and people are already demanding nerfs, it's like there are people who believe they cannot win without getting the other races nerfed.
On March 06 2013 19:13 RyanRushia wrote:great to see blizzard relaxing with the nerfs/buffs and letting the game develop more before any big changes are made. glad to take it a bit slower
More of this attitude please, we'll end up with a far, far better game this way.
On March 08 2013 07:36 Destructicon wrote: Oh this is disgusting, the game isn't even officially released yet, the pro players haven't even fully grasped all the changes and their implications, and already people are asking for nerfs. Just wait it out till 1 or 2 months after release and if its still an issue then proper measures can be taken with the data that gets collected in the meanwhile.
Exactly.
On March 08 2013 07:30 TotalBiscuit wrote: Why does the community seem so willing to knee-jerk demand nerfs to everything interesting in the game before it's had a chance to properly develop?
We'll never know, let's just hope they don't get their way.
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On March 08 2013 07:34 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 07:30 TotalBiscuit wrote: Why does the community seem so willing to knee-jerk demand nerfs to everything interesting in the game before it's had a chance to properly develop? That's a LOADED question. Quick answer: immaturity No. It is because that is how Blizzard balanced WOL: big nerfs left and right, sometimes with minimal time for players to adapt (Thor, Ghost, etc)
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On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron]
i cant really agree with that - it costing energy acutally wouldnt make it a lot less OP (then again, it would be about the amount of energy it costs). the sheer speedboost and the duration / cooldown on it are what make it very strong. But i dont mind things being strong right now.
in some situations, it could even be worse if it costs energy - feedbacks would do less damage :D
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On March 08 2013 07:30 TotalBiscuit wrote: Why does the community seem so willing to knee-jerk demand nerfs to everything interesting in the game before it's had a chance to properly develop?
well, some things in the game can be very obviously imbalanced. In those cases, not nerfing would fuck up results (and probably some players pockets as well) pretty badly.
is this the case right now in heart of the swarm? im not sure - but i dont mind very MINOR changes to things that appear too strong to everyone.
That doesnt mean that u have to remove any interesting elements of the game, u just have to tweak them very little to such an extend, that they possibly still appear overpowered for the moment.
Im totally fine with blizzard thinking about nerfing protoss lategame air and medivac speed boost - i would even add widow mines to that list. I just hope they do extremly small changes and dont "remove" specific aspects of the game (example: medivac speed boost costs 15 energy --> that might turn out to be a good change, it doesnt do a whole lot, but might help in some situations | Bad change: medivac boost gets a 40 second cooldown --> just way too much, takes out interesting gameplay)
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It's a beta, TB. We're supposed to be talking balance.
That said, if you want to /fp at the quality of the debate, I'm sure there's plenty of good material to work with.
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So they're looking into nerfing Protoss air, most especially against Zerg, and nerfing medivac boost? Those are two things I think would make the game less fun to watch. These HotS games have been great much in part to these aspects. I would've said add more threatening units and abilities to the game.
It's good that they are going to wait to see, though. Most likely if changes to these mentioned pieces come, they will be small. In any case, people will still complain, especially when Protoss loses. If a P wins IEM it might greatly lower the chances of the 2nd change though.
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I seriously hope Blizzard will wait another couple of months before trying to nerf anything. Food for thought: Despite all the boosters OP calls, I didn't see a single ZvT at MLG yet where Zergs were going for a muta heavy style or spore defense...
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On March 17 2013 06:26 TwilightRain wrote: I seriously hope Blizzard will wait another couple of months before trying to nerf anything. Food for thought: Despite all the boosters OP calls, I didn't see a single ZvT at MLG yet where Zergs were going for a muta heavy style or spore defense... neither abduct style defense.
+1 to wait before nerf
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I really hope they look at Hellbats, Mutalisks, and Gateway durability for Protoss as well. Since it's imminent they will nerf Protoss Skytoss reasonably, I feel something needs to be done to give Gateway units some more durability, simply because their current setup makes them incredibly easy to abuse for mobility and countering, in comparison to the other races.
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I find it really wierd that blizzard completely ignores ZvZ. Currently everyone is pigeonholed into having to go mutas. No matter what.
Imho the current state of ZvZ is easily the most boring of any mirror at any point in the game. At least in 4gate vs 4 gate PvP there is a significant amount of micro involved which was moderately exciting. In ZvZ right now, games are largely determined around who can mine the most gas the fastest.
My 0.02 at least.
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On March 17 2013 06:59 Jasiwel wrote: I really hope they look at Hellbats, Mutalisks, and Gateway durability for Protoss as well. Since it's imminent they will nerf Protoss Skytoss reasonably, I feel something needs to be done to give Gateway units some more durability, simply because their current setup makes them incredibly easy to abuse for mobility and countering, in comparison to the other races. That will never happen cause of warpgates.
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On March 17 2013 07:20 Deadlifter wrote: I find it really wierd that blizzard completely ignores ZvZ. Currently everyone is pigeonholed into having to go mutas. No matter what.
Imho the current state of ZvZ is easily the most boring of any mirror at any point in the game. At least in 4gate vs 4 gate PvP there is a significant amount of micro involved which was moderately exciting. In ZvZ right now, games are largely determined around who can mine the most gas the fastest.
My 0.02 at least. I thinks even some of the pros said it in the past: you can't balance the game around mirror matchups or you will screw up all the non-mirrors.
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After the 1-base phase of PvP, provided both players are still in it to win it, the match-up has become completely ruined. There are only stargates, all other alternatives are guaranteed loss.
Next expansion - give the robo facility some anti-air. I don't know why they designed protoss this way. It's so confining, and makes the race feel way too predictable. Robo-style Protoss play really got the shaft in this expansion -- in all the match-ups.
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On March 17 2013 06:26 TwilightRain wrote: I seriously hope Blizzard will wait another couple of months before trying to nerf anything. Food for thought: Despite all the boosters OP calls, I didn't see a single ZvT at MLG yet where Zergs were going for a muta heavy style or spore defense...
As a Zerg I'm terrified to go Muta vT these days. It was already a pretty risky play in WoL, although you could definitely be successful with it as long as you were on top of your transitions. That said, HOTS has introduced the Widow Mine which threatens Zerg in so many ways that the Terran couldn't do in WoL.
I feel, subjectively, that the Widow Mine is what's stopping Mutas from being seen in a lot of ZvTs in HOTS.
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just looking at MLG this weekend, it's obvious that they need to do something to tvz.. these long games where terran turtles on air units are extremely boring to watch. Basically, the scourge would be a good unit in the metagame right now
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On March 17 2013 07:48 Quotidian wrote: just looking at MLG this weekend, it's obvious that they need to do something to tvz.. these long games where terran turtles on air units are extremely boring to watch.
Dude. Have you seen most of the games?
I've seen countless of amazing TvZ, and only one series where Terran (ThorZaIN) camped to air units.
Watch Flash TvZ dude.
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On March 17 2013 07:29 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 06:59 Jasiwel wrote: I really hope they look at Hellbats, Mutalisks, and Gateway durability for Protoss as well. Since it's imminent they will nerf Protoss Skytoss reasonably, I feel something needs to be done to give Gateway units some more durability, simply because their current setup makes them incredibly easy to abuse for mobility and countering, in comparison to the other races. That will never happen cause of warpgates. *sigh* Yeah, you're probably right. I'd rather them just look at the balance of Hellbats and Mutalisks to be honest, simply because Hellbats are SO DAMN GOOD against Zealots, Storm, and Archons, not mentioning that they can be healed by Medivacs. Mutalisks are just difficult to deal with as Protoss again, which isn't a bad thing, but it's just over the point of being reasonable given Protoss has to sacrifice economy, army, or Phoenix just to deter the Mutalisks, let alone killing them requires losing 2/3. Then the Roach/Ling switch would simply finish it. Of course you can argue that Protoss Skytoss would come out on top, but at the same time that will be nerfed reasonably soon, so it is a bit to ponder about. I don't know, definitely just food for thought.
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On March 17 2013 07:50 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 07:48 Quotidian wrote: just looking at MLG this weekend, it's obvious that they need to do something to tvz.. these long games where terran turtles on air units are extremely boring to watch. Dude. Have you seen most of the games? I've seen countless of amazing TvZ, and only one series where Terran (ThorZaIN) camped to air units. Watch Flash TvZ dude.
there was the game that Incontrol and TB casted and then there's the Thorzain games.. when the purpose of the game is who can stall out the longest and accumulate the biggest bank, something is very wrong. And because terran air is so strong and some maps are so easy to split, we're only going to see more games like this
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I think that blizzard should buff ling/bling/mutas strategy somehow and maybe nerf the widow mine so it only can attack air which would open up for muta harrass and defense.
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On March 17 2013 08:42 archonOOid wrote: I think that blizzard should buff ling/bling/mutas strategy somehow and maybe nerf the widow mine so it only can attack air which would open up for muta harrass and defense.
That, and make the mine completely fucking useless
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Widow Mines SHOULDNT attack air, imo. Why make the focal point of HotS harass (which is mainly by air) and then add a no risk automated cloaked unit that does insane AOE damage? Terran had no trouble defending air harass before. Turrets, Marines, Thors, Vikings. Sure, Ling/bane/muta was tough, but even with Widow Mines hitting ground it's still a huge boost against that strategy.
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On March 17 2013 08:52 Arco wrote: Widow Mines SHOULDNT attack air, imo. Why make the focal point of HotS harass (which is mainly by air) and then add a no risk automated cloaked unit that does insane AOE damage? Maybe because Protoss can have a stimmed Banshee shortly after 6' in Terran's mineral line?
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On March 17 2013 07:34 TwilightRain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 07:20 Deadlifter wrote: I find it really wierd that blizzard completely ignores ZvZ. Currently everyone is pigeonholed into having to go mutas. No matter what.
Imho the current state of ZvZ is easily the most boring of any mirror at any point in the game. At least in 4gate vs 4 gate PvP there is a significant amount of micro involved which was moderately exciting. In ZvZ right now, games are largely determined around who can mine the most gas the fastest.
My 0.02 at least. I thinks even some of the pros said it in the past: you can't balance the game around mirror matchups or you will screw up all the non-mirrors.
There have been plenty of balance changes just to fix mirror matches. The warp gate research was in large part nerfed due to PvP 4gating. The sentry production time was buffed to fix PvP. The queen buff was a big deal for ZvT yes, but arguably even more so for ZvZ, making 4 queen openers very viable, reducing the effectiveness of early allins.
Either way, it's not like the game is perfect in every regard other than zvz right now anyways, so changes that affect the other matchups would be welcomed as well.
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On March 17 2013 09:13 zhurai wrote: people complain so much.
/thread
I've said it many times I think, but you'd really think that this community would be discerning enough to know that balance needs to be tested more before it can be judged.
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Looks hard for zerg right now, but I like Blizzard's approach a lot more this time. Let's wait a bit more and see what the pro zergs come up with, and if it's not enough buff zerg, don't nerf terran or protoss.
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On March 17 2013 09:27 Doodsmack wrote:/thread I've said it many times I think, but you'd really think that this community would be discerning enough to know that balance needs to be tested more before it can be judged. And in the same way, anyone could say that "(insert low level disrespect like "bronzies")" should discern between just simply new strong strats and ez op stuff. Every consistent too strong strat have been nerfed to be stopped (after too many undeserved wins in most cases). From proxy gateways, to infestors. Bunkers, cannons, blueflame hellions, nitropacks, 1-1-1, 4gates and so, all evidently op strats were stopped by nerfs. And in every case (every one of those on their respective match ups), were obviously unbalances almost from the get go. Also, the basis of macro mechanics of the game are already dissected, so this is not early 2011 when there was a lot to discover.
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On March 17 2013 09:40 NeonFox wrote: Looks hard for zerg right now, but I like Blizzard's approach a lot more this time. Let's wait a bit more and see what the pro zergs come up with, and if it's not enough buff zerg, don't nerf terran or protoss.
I'm Terran and I can admit Zerg needs love. Buff Ling Bling. Especially Banlings.
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On March 17 2013 09:49 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 09:40 NeonFox wrote: Looks hard for zerg right now, but I like Blizzard's approach a lot more this time. Let's wait a bit more and see what the pro zergs come up with, and if it's not enough buff zerg, don't nerf terran or protoss. I'm Terran and I can admit Zerg needs love. Buff Ling Bling. Especially Banlings. so you want a unit that requires no micro whatsoever to be even stronger against a unit that requires tonnes of micro to use effectively.. yeah this is why zerg is getting easier to play every day. stop making suggestions like this
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On March 17 2013 09:53 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 09:49 GinDo wrote:On March 17 2013 09:40 NeonFox wrote: Looks hard for zerg right now, but I like Blizzard's approach a lot more this time. Let's wait a bit more and see what the pro zergs come up with, and if it's not enough buff zerg, don't nerf terran or protoss. I'm Terran and I can admit Zerg needs love. Buff Ling Bling. Especially Banlings. so you want a unit that requires no micro whatsoever to be even stronger against a unit that requires tonnes of micro to use effectively.. yeah this is why zerg is getting easier to play every day. stop making suggestions like this
On what planet does a baneling not require micro? Watch high-level play and see how they use their banelings.
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On March 17 2013 09:53 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 09:49 GinDo wrote:On March 17 2013 09:40 NeonFox wrote: Looks hard for zerg right now, but I like Blizzard's approach a lot more this time. Let's wait a bit more and see what the pro zergs come up with, and if it's not enough buff zerg, don't nerf terran or protoss. I'm Terran and I can admit Zerg needs love. Buff Ling Bling. Especially Banlings. so you want a unit that requires no micro whatsoever to be even stronger against a unit that requires tonnes of micro to use effectively.. yeah this is why zerg is getting easier to play every day. stop making suggestions like this
Team Liquid SC forums, a place where you learn that banelings don't require micro.
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I kind of fail to see how Blizzard does not think that the Medivac boost needs some tweaking? The speed boost should either be an upgrade that costs like 150 minerals and 150 gas OR make it energy based as in it takes up 25 energy on activation and proceeds to eat up the energy overtime. Or maybe do both.
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On March 17 2013 11:13 Disengaged wrote: I kind of fail to see how Blizzard does not think that the Medivac boost needs some tweaking? The speed boost should either be an upgrade that costs like 150 minerals and 150 gas OR make it energy based as in it takes up 25 energy on activation and proceeds to eat up the energy overtime. Or maybe do both.
The games from this MLG are the most exciting games I've seen in SC2 since wings beta. Three reasons for this are that dropships are actually viable vs good players. Before it was so easy to shut down the medivacs that it became too risky in many pros eyes and therefore we didn't see it. The second is the mines. Mines are really bad on their own, but with an army they change the flow of the game much like spider mines did in BW. Thirdly is vipers. Seeing [spoiler] sen abduct parting's colossus was amazing. As was seeing ret abduct flash's dropships.
Rain was able to shut down Jjakji's dropships very effectively and while ret fell apart late game he also did a great job at it. Give it time and I think the game will change.
Wings mentality we saw no need for static defense. Possibly that will change.
I think they will be tuned down eventually, but I imagine that the only change will be an increase on the cooldown and/or a reduction in the duration of the boost. If they make it cost mana it's not going to be nearly as viable and will most likely fade out which hurts esports.
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On March 17 2013 11:13 Disengaged wrote: I kind of fail to see how Blizzard does not think that the Medivac boost needs some tweaking? The speed boost should either be an upgrade that costs like 150 minerals and 150 gas OR make it energy based as in it takes up 25 energy on activation and proceeds to eat up the energy overtime. Or maybe do both. Or maybe we should give it a couple of months before knee jerk nerfing Terran again for the 100th time. There needs to be more games played to have examples of players focusing on defending against drops and still losing to them.
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This most recent MLG i actually have watched games and they have been exciting instead of broodlord/infestor every game.
Lots of action everywhere, medivac drops (obv) in particular, and multi-pronged aggression from the Korean Terrans...muta ling baneling, etc.
The game is already 20x better and a higher skill cap than Lings of Liberty, I'd say HOTS is a huge success so far just from IEM and this MLG.
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On March 17 2013 11:21 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 11:13 Disengaged wrote: I kind of fail to see how Blizzard does not think that the Medivac boost needs some tweaking? The speed boost should either be an upgrade that costs like 150 minerals and 150 gas OR make it energy based as in it takes up 25 energy on activation and proceeds to eat up the energy overtime. Or maybe do both. Or maybe we should give it a couple of months before knee jerk nerfing Terran again for the 100th time. There needs to be more games played to have examples of players focusing on defending against drops and still losing to them.
this. its just retarded that so many people cry for nerfs.
people should sit down and think about possible counters, counterbuilds and they should learn to deal with new things. and that needs time. but i guess crying and nerfing things is easier than actually learning how to play.
and not only that, every single terran drop we saw so far would have worked without the medivac speedboost. z and p need to learn to split their army.
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On March 17 2013 11:21 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 11:13 Disengaged wrote: I kind of fail to see how Blizzard does not think that the Medivac boost needs some tweaking? The speed boost should either be an upgrade that costs like 150 minerals and 150 gas OR make it energy based as in it takes up 25 energy on activation and proceeds to eat up the energy overtime. Or maybe do both. Or maybe we should give it a couple of months before knee jerk nerfing Terran again for the 100th time. There needs to be more games played to have examples of players focusing on defending against drops and still losing to them. Yeah while it looks silly right now I think we need some patience to let the other races get some chance to figure out how to counter it. It's not like it's so imba that anyone can reach GM by just building a few medivacs. Currently it seems like it needs to be nerfed but we should really give it some time. I bet there are a dozen other stuff in hots that are kinda broken that we havent seen yet.
EDIT: Right now alot of it looks kinda like vulture raids in BW TvP about 10years ago when tosses just refused to put down cannons even when it would clearly shut the raids down.
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On March 17 2013 11:24 avilo wrote: This most recent MLG i actually have watched games and they have been exciting instead of broodlord/infestor every game.
Lots of action everywhere, medivac drops (obv) in particular, and multi-pronged aggression from the Korean Terrans...muta ling baneling, etc.
The game is already 20x better and a higher skill cap than Lings of Liberty, I'd say HOTS is a huge success so far just from IEM and this MLG.
+ 1 agreed
On March 17 2013 11:19 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 11:13 Disengaged wrote: I kind of fail to see how Blizzard does not think that the Medivac boost needs some tweaking? The speed boost should either be an upgrade that costs like 150 minerals and 150 gas OR make it energy based as in it takes up 25 energy on activation and proceeds to eat up the energy overtime. Or maybe do both. The games from this MLG are the most exciting games I've seen in SC2 since wings beta. Three reasons for this are that dropships are actually viable vs good players. Before it was so easy to shut down the medivacs that it became too risky in many pros eyes and therefore we didn't see it. The second is the mines. Mines are really bad on their own, but with an army they change the flow of the game much like spider mines did in BW. Thirdly is vipers. Seeing [spoiler] sen abduct parting's colossus was amazing. As was seeing ret abduct flash's dropships. Rain was able to shut down Jjakji's dropships very effectively and while ret fell apart late game he also did a great job at it. Give it time and I think the game will change. Wings mentality we saw no need for static defense. Possibly that will change. I think they will be tuned down eventually, but I imagine that the only change will be an increase on the cooldown and/or a reduction in the duration of the boost. If they make it cost mana it's not going to be nearly as viable and will most likely fade out which hurts esports.
+1 agreed
The games are fun to watch again, not like the last year of WoL which was terrible for almost every match up. The drops are super exciting because now good players can use them, in WoL they were pretty much useless
I think viewership numbers also reflect the excitement and the maybe re-found love for SC2 there's currently 100,000 viewers - i don't remember the last time it happened :D
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On March 17 2013 11:24 avilo wrote: This most recent MLG i actually have watched games and they have been exciting instead of broodlord/infestor every game.
Lots of action everywhere, medivac drops (obv) in particular, and multi-pronged aggression from the Korean Terrans...muta ling baneling, etc.
The game is already 20x better and a higher skill cap than Lings of Liberty, I'd say HOTS is a huge success so far just from IEM and this MLG. or it's because no one has figured out a solid way to get into a new hardcore deathball yet.
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On March 17 2013 11:41 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 11:24 avilo wrote: This most recent MLG i actually have watched games and they have been exciting instead of broodlord/infestor every game.
Lots of action everywhere, medivac drops (obv) in particular, and multi-pronged aggression from the Korean Terrans...muta ling baneling, etc.
The game is already 20x better and a higher skill cap than Lings of Liberty, I'd say HOTS is a huge success so far just from IEM and this MLG. or it's because no one has figured out a solid way to get into a new hardcore deathball yet. Blame it on the lack of Toss ^^.
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On March 17 2013 11:24 avilo wrote: This most recent MLG i actually have watched games and they have been exciting instead of broodlord/infestor every game.
Lots of action everywhere, medivac drops (obv) in particular, and multi-pronged aggression from the Korean Terrans...muta ling baneling, etc.
The game is already 20x better and a higher skill cap than Lings of Liberty, I'd say HOTS is a huge success so far just from IEM and this MLG. I think the biggest sign of success so far is that you have something posetive to say about the game. In all seriousness (dont take me for a flame-baiter, I actually think that you make really good points more often than not) it might be too early or the metagame might not have developed enough to say anything significant about the balance, but it does look good.
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balance is already better than in WOL
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I am finding the game super exciting to play Nd watch now
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On March 17 2013 11:58 headnut wrote: balance is already better than in WOL I wouldn't say that necessarily, I feel like the balance in WoL is more solid, but HotS is definitely a lot more fun than WoL.
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honestly i find many of you guy totaly disgusting , many of you guy will never understand how terran was weak and bad for the whole last year of wol , i was trying to stay high master low gm level for a while then one day after i got 5 nerf patch in a round i just stoped this GAME ....and say FUCK IT . just for the kick i picked protoss wich i have almost never played and did a 10 win streak vs high master and gm mmr... while i was like 7 loss in a round with one race i played over 7k game....
then i have understand and removed this game from my hard drive.... disgusted to have waste my time with this game.
pro terran have win NOTHING in a whole year or more unless they are S class korean , while zerg and protoss foreigner were doing fine , 90 % of you guy dont understand how much terran are harder to play at any level after master league .
terran got ZERO endgame , in endgame they loss if they reach this point , they have ZERO op unit they can mass and make for win , they need TO HARASS for gain advantage in the game just for hope to stay even , they need to do timing attack for hope to win , they require the hardess micro macro and in most time you need to harass while doing everything at the same time.... you loss your ARMY only one time ?? you are GAME OVER , they are never any coming back from terran while i have see protoss and zerg just rebuild and win game so many time before.... you get 2 storm in ? same , game over gg !!! nothing come close of it from zerg and protoss... spam from all larva , warp gate ?? are you kidding me , i was reading that zerg was kinda hard to play because you apparently need to inject after some crazy big time ?? hahahaha i played zerg and my inject was near perfect after about 20 game... and im just someone who played broodwar for 8 year at a decend level and was playing sc2 casualy....i dont think im that amazing , but maybe im that GOOD RIGHT ?? yes perfect inject , that right , after about 20 game .
for protoss im not kidding either when i say the only macro requirement are to NOT forget your PYLON , and even pro gamer protoss got stuck many time.... lol....while you almost never see a pro gamer got supply stuck and when they do the caster will alway talk about it because that so unusual.....
hots just got released and everyone in this community want every new ''ok'' terran unit to get nerfed , the mine , im sure you will get it in a state like the ghost soon , the medivac bost i would bet 2k money this will get nerfed too because most player are just horrible and cant place observer or defend again them , pro protoss are starting to do fine vs them , but im sure you will get it nerfed too because blizzard nerf for the bad player .
then terran will be in a state just like wol , good job , im hating this community who think that alway fine to whine about one race , if more people would actualy play this race they would understand how terran are not that good at the higher level unless you are at the code S level and how about you FIND zero foreigner terran who are winning anything... you realy think that because they are less skilled ??
and blizzard balance team are a bunch of monkey , this game not 10 % close to be balanced and anyone with a brain grandmaster league would balance this game better that them , me included , that not that hard get mech to work for exemple in t v p ......
anyway im not playing hots of wol anymore but im reading the forum about nerf and op and find that realy funny to read about that everyone want everything from the terran race nerfed .
keep going , amazing community .
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I'd hate to see the answer be 'nerf the shit out of medivacs'. This tournament has definitely been entertaining. If Blizzard identifies a problem with Terran I hope their solution is to either nerf Terran defense against harass or buff the harass of the other races.
All-in-all though, fun games to watch. Here's hoping Life can pull through and give us Zergs some hope.
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On March 17 2013 11:21 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 11:13 Disengaged wrote: I kind of fail to see how Blizzard does not think that the Medivac boost needs some tweaking? The speed boost should either be an upgrade that costs like 150 minerals and 150 gas OR make it energy based as in it takes up 25 energy on activation and proceeds to eat up the energy overtime. Or maybe do both. Or maybe we should give it a couple of months before knee jerk nerfing Terran again for the 100th time. There needs to be more games played to have examples of players focusing on defending against drops and still losing to them.
Well the medivacs are likely kinda IMBA, but they are also so awesome I don't want them to go.
If anything, they just need to make them turn and accelerate different that non-boosted medivacs. That would make it so they needed to be control more carefully and misusing the ability could be punished. But they still need to be fast as hell and awesome.
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On March 17 2013 13:04 quebecman77 wrote: honestly i find many of you guy totaly disgusting , many of you guy will never understand how terran was weak and bad for the whole last year of wol , i was trying to stay high master low gm level for a while then one day after i got 5 nerf patch in a round i just stoped this GAME ....and say FUCK IT . just for the kick i picked protoss wich i have almost never played and did a 10 win streak vs high master and gm mmr... while i was like 7 loss in a round with one race i played over 7k game....
then i have understand and removed this game from my hard drive.... disgusted to have waste my time with this game.
pro terran have win NOTHING in a whole year or more unless they are S class korean , while zerg and protoss foreigner were doing fine , 90 % of you guy dont understand how much terran are harder to play at any level after master league .
terran got ZERO endgame , in endgame they loss if they reach this point , they have ZERO op unit they can mass and make for win , they need TO HARASS for gain advantage in the game just for hope to stay even , they need to do timing attack for hope to win , they require the hardess micro macro and in most time you need to harass while doing everything at the same time.... you loss your ARMY only one time ?? you are GAME OVER , they are never any coming back from terran while i have see protoss and zerg just rebuild and win game so many time before.... you get 2 storm in ? same , game over gg !!! nothing come close of it from zerg and protoss... spam from all larva , warp gate ?? are you kidding me , i was reading that zerg was kinda hard to play because you apparently need to inject after some crazy big time ?? hahahaha i played zerg and my inject was near perfect after about 20 game... and im just someone who played broodwar for 8 year at a decend level and was playing sc2 casualy....i dont think im that amazing , but maybe im that GOOD RIGHT ?? yes perfect inject , that right , after about 20 game .
for protoss im not kidding either when i say the only macro requirement are to NOT forget your PYLON , and even pro gamer protoss got stuck many time.... lol....while you almost never see a pro gamer got supply stuck and when they do the caster will alway talk about it because that so unusual.....
hots just got released and everyone in this community want every new ''ok'' terran unit to get nerfed , the mine , im sure you will get it in a state like the ghost soon , the medivac bost i would bet 2k money this will get nerfed too because most player are just horrible and cant place observer or defend again them , pro protoss are starting to do fine vs them , but im sure you will get it nerfed too because blizzard nerf for the bad player .
then terran will be in a state just like wol , good job , im hating this community who think that alway fine to whine about one race , if more people would actualy play this race they would understand how terran are not that good at the higher level unless you are at the code S level and how about you FIND zero foreigner terran who are winning anything... you realy think that because they are less skilled ??
and blizzard balance team are a bunch of monkey , this game not 10 % close to be balanced and anyone with a brain grandmaster league would balance this game better that them , me included , that not that hard get mech to work for exemple in t v p ......
anyway im not playing hots of wol anymore but im reading the forum about nerf and op and find that realy funny to read about that everyone want everything from the terran race nerfed .
keep going , amazing community .
Holy crap mister 16 posts, grammar. I don't normally call people on this, but my god, this thing is a war crime. Also, I don't know what anyone with a "brain grand master", but they should have that looked at.
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Going to assume quebec doesn't speak English as a native language, at least I hope not.
I don't think anyone thinks the boost ability is bad and needs removed, or at least not intelligent people. What even Terran pros think is there should be a draw back to using the boost. Many have suggested a small energy cost, so that using it excessively would drain the medivac of energy.
Thusly now you give players a great ability but you can't use it stupidly and be successful. The best players will manage it well and use it in very strong ways. Bad players will over use it (much like over using stim) and hurt themselves.
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This game obviously needs tweaking, I'll start with that. But when the OP units are things that require multitasking and great micro, the game is a million times better to watch. I had pretty much stopped watching WoL, but this tourny(MLG) is convincing me to come back to watching professional SC. So much fun!
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Haven't been able to catch much MLG this weekend, how have the turbo medivacs been?
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On March 17 2013 13:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 11:21 aksfjh wrote:On March 17 2013 11:13 Disengaged wrote: I kind of fail to see how Blizzard does not think that the Medivac boost needs some tweaking? The speed boost should either be an upgrade that costs like 150 minerals and 150 gas OR make it energy based as in it takes up 25 energy on activation and proceeds to eat up the energy overtime. Or maybe do both. Or maybe we should give it a couple of months before knee jerk nerfing Terran again for the 100th time. There needs to be more games played to have examples of players focusing on defending against drops and still losing to them. Well the medivacs are likely kinda IMBA, but they are also so awesome I don't want them to go. If anything, they just need to make them turn and accelerate different that non-boosted medivacs. That would make it so they needed to be control more carefully and misusing the ability could be punished. But they still need to be fast as hell and awesome. Yes that would be a nice change.
At the same time, this speed boost could end up like the invention of muta micro in BW. Just like how that led to great marine control, this will eventually lead to protoss and zerg becoming much better at defending. Now to decide whether that's a good thing for the game.
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After this MLG something must be done with the medivac boost, it's just too easy.
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As much as i hate zerg in wol i am sad for them in Hots .
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On March 17 2013 13:29 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 13:14 Plansix wrote:On March 17 2013 11:21 aksfjh wrote:On March 17 2013 11:13 Disengaged wrote: I kind of fail to see how Blizzard does not think that the Medivac boost needs some tweaking? The speed boost should either be an upgrade that costs like 150 minerals and 150 gas OR make it energy based as in it takes up 25 energy on activation and proceeds to eat up the energy overtime. Or maybe do both. Or maybe we should give it a couple of months before knee jerk nerfing Terran again for the 100th time. There needs to be more games played to have examples of players focusing on defending against drops and still losing to them. Well the medivacs are likely kinda IMBA, but they are also so awesome I don't want them to go. If anything, they just need to make them turn and accelerate different that non-boosted medivacs. That would make it so they needed to be control more carefully and misusing the ability could be punished. But they still need to be fast as hell and awesome. Yes that would be a nice change. At the same time, this speed boost could end up like the invention of muta micro in BW. Just like how that led to great marine control, this will eventually lead to protoss and zerg becoming much better at defending. Now to decide whether that's a good thing for the game.
There really isn't a micro ability to make up for...uh I can't catch the medivacs because they are to fast. There absolutely needs to be a draw back to using it excessively. Static D alone isn't the answer, it's far to easy to use the boost to speed to a hole in static D to drop off at. Investing in massive amounts of spores/spines/cannons would be ridiculously to costly and massive damage in itself.
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" Turbo Subscriber clutch08: I will talk to David Kim tomorrow. The first thing I will bring up is medivac afterburners costing 25 energy, therefore making Caduecues reactor more desirable"
25 energy would result in medivacs with no energy ever, slightly longer cooldown is a better option if anything needs to happen.
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On March 17 2013 14:04 TheRabidDeer wrote: " Turbo Subscriber clutch08: I will talk to David Kim tomorrow. The first thing I will bring up is medivac afterburners costing 25 energy, therefore making Caduecues reactor more desirable"
25 energy would result in medivacs with no energy ever, slightly longer cooldown is a better option if anything needs to happen.
It'd be more in favor of "Risk vs reward" then it already is.
I'm a Terran player and I think it'd be reasonable.
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On March 17 2013 14:20 Disengaged wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 14:04 TheRabidDeer wrote: " Turbo Subscriber clutch08: I will talk to David Kim tomorrow. The first thing I will bring up is medivac afterburners costing 25 energy, therefore making Caduecues reactor more desirable"
25 energy would result in medivacs with no energy ever, slightly longer cooldown is a better option if anything needs to happen. It'd be more in favor of "Risk vs reward" then it already is. I'm a Terran player and I think it'd be reasonable. I am a zerg player and would rather see a longer cooldown, which is also risk vs reward. Higher cooldown means you cant just burn in, drop and by the time reinforcements come to defend its off cooldown and you can pick up and leave without worry. It would be a choice of "do I burn in and actually risk losing the medivac, or do I go in slow and hope his army cant stop me"
The main problem that I see with it, is that it lets terrans get in AND out right now, when it should be more of a choice of getting in OR out.
Making it cost energy would reduce the number of drops that a T could do in most cases, which is against what blizzard wanted when they introduced afterburners.
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On March 17 2013 14:04 TheRabidDeer wrote: " Turbo Subscriber clutch08: I will talk to David Kim tomorrow. The first thing I will bring up is medivac afterburners costing 25 energy, therefore making Caduecues reactor more desirable"
25 energy would result in medivacs with no energy ever, slightly longer cooldown is a better option if anything needs to happen.
That's ridiculous, we don't need esports "personalities" trying to help Blizzard balance this game.
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They shouldn't nerf the speed but instead figure out buffs for the other races to help them defend. I want to see an option for multiple MSCs and some reworking of recall so that Toss armies can respond faster. I'm thinking allowing as many MSCs as there are Nexi and changing it so when the protoss units are stunned upon warping in(not out) they are also invulnerable. The invulnerability stun would allow the toss not just to lose his defending units to the high dps bio but also allow the Terran time to retreat if necessary. Multiple MSCs would allow toss to have more map presence with small groups of units without sacrificing currently vital defense.
What do people think?
I have no idea how to change Zerg
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On March 17 2013 14:33 Geos13 wrote: They shouldn't nerf the speed but instead figure out buffs for the other races to help them defend. I want to see an option for multiple MSCs and some reworking of recall so that Toss armies can respond faster. I'm thinking allowing as many MSCs as there are Nexi and changing it so when the protoss units are stunned upon warping in(not out) they are also invulnerable. The invulnerability stun would allow the toss not just to lose his defending units to the high dps bio but also allow the Terran time to retreat if necessary. Multiple MSCs would allow toss to have more map presence with small groups of units without sacrificing currently vital defense.
What do people think?
I have no idea how to change Zerg No.... 1 MSC is powerful enough. I cant even imagine 3+. 3 MSC worth of time warps or even just 2 MSC with time warp + recall + forcefields would be ridiculous.
Also, pretty sure you can see when recall is being used on the nexus (though not positive) so no reason to stun/invuln on the way back.
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On March 17 2013 14:38 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 14:33 Geos13 wrote: They shouldn't nerf the speed but instead figure out buffs for the other races to help them defend. I want to see an option for multiple MSCs and some reworking of recall so that Toss armies can respond faster. I'm thinking allowing as many MSCs as there are Nexi and changing it so when the protoss units are stunned upon warping in(not out) they are also invulnerable. The invulnerability stun would allow the toss not just to lose his defending units to the high dps bio but also allow the Terran time to retreat if necessary. Multiple MSCs would allow toss to have more map presence with small groups of units without sacrificing currently vital defense.
What do people think?
I have no idea how to change Zerg No.... 1 MSC is powerful enough. I cant even imagine 3+. 3 MSC worth of time warps or even just 2 MSC with time warp + recall + forcefields would be ridiculous. Also, pretty sure you can see when recall is being used on the nexus (though not positive) so no reason to stun/invuln on the way back.
Ahh well I forgot about multiple time warps. Yeah that would suck. Well that is a terrible(boring) spell so I wouldn't mind them removing it from the MSC. Other than that I don't see why multiple MSCs would be too powerful. Multiple recalls would be very powerful but I'm hoping in the same way that the medivac boost is imba. Have different exciting imba things cancel each other out. However this is likely to many changes post beta so meh... guess we just nerf the boost.
Edit: Oh and the photon overcharge is lame too. It is not an exciting method to defend as it requires no skill. I would be happy having that removed too I am a protoss player
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On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote: "We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered.
The main reason why we feel this way is that it’s difficult for Protoss to keep up in economy while executing this strategy. In pro level tournament games, we’ve seen this army composition countered in many different ways, and we’re pretty sure that even pros haven’t quite developed an optimal counter-strategy for dealing with Protoss air compositions." All this blabbering about pros shows that they either have no clue how to design a game which will be equally difficult for all levels of skill OR that they simply do not care about casuals or low level leagues.
Honestly ... SC2 is designed as an eSports game first and foremost and that is a terrible concept, because that allows them to make stupid decisions which basically say "suck it casuals". How can a group of friends have fun playing the game if one race is significantly easier to play with "winning strategy X"? Stupid ... juust stupid.
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I think nerfing cool down would be fine, so its just not a "yay lets spam it" and more of a "okay, do i want to use it now.. or later"
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On March 17 2013 14:53 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote: "We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered.
The main reason why we feel this way is that it’s difficult for Protoss to keep up in economy while executing this strategy. In pro level tournament games, we’ve seen this army composition countered in many different ways, and we’re pretty sure that even pros haven’t quite developed an optimal counter-strategy for dealing with Protoss air compositions." All this blabbering about pros shows that they either have no clue how to design a game which will be equally difficult for all levels of skill OR that they simply do not care about casuals or low level leagues. Honestly ... SC2 is designed as an eSports game first and foremost and that is a terrible concept, because that allows them to make stupid decisions which basically say "suck it casuals". How can a group of friends have fun playing the game if one race is significantly easier to play with "winning strategy X"? Stupid ... juust stupid.
What? Many areas of the game have been altered to appeal to the casual fan base. Just compare SC2 too Broodwar. Over the course of two years I have gone from bronze to masters and what I have learnt is that there is no point in balancing for casuals. I can kill four of my friends(team game only bronze) at the same time by just massing stalkers. They claim stalkers are ridiculously overpowered. As long as you can get ahead by macroing better than any unit composition can appear over powered.
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Is there a good HotS summary/overview somewhere? Listing the changes and new stuff coming from WoL. I don't understand half of what happens on the MLG stream. :p
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Our general thinking on new units and abilities is that using them will always be learned faster than defending against them for obvious reasons. Because we’re already seeing some players defend against the new Medivacs extremely well, we definitely want to wait on this feedback to really make sure that it is in fact overpowered before making a change. Trust in Blizzard. That sounds very reasonable.
I doubt they'll nerf Terran in an immediate time frame if one doesn't win this tournament. They'll probably combine that with the fact that Terrans are not performing particularly well on the Korean Ladder. They probably won't soon nerf them even if one does win the tournament; the quote makes it seem like letting time pass is key to them.
Letting players adjust is important. After other P's see what MC did with his phoenix play to shut down medivacs and what he did with his oracles to keep pressure on Terran, I'm sure the play will change a bit. It's certainly more exciting than gateway compositions.
I'm just concerned that they'll nerf the VR. I might be alone in this, but I like the new PvP.
By the way, I don't think Blizzard gives a damn what a bunch of people complain about. They seem to have picked what they pay attention to: numbers.
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On March 17 2013 13:19 Nerski wrote: I don't think anyone thinks the boost ability is bad and needs removed, or at least not intelligent people. What even Terran pros think is there should be a draw back to using the boost. Many have suggested a small energy cost, so that using it excessively would drain the medivac of energy.
Thusly now you give players a great ability but you can't use it stupidly and be successful. The best players will manage it well and use it in very strong ways. Bad players will over use it (much like over using stim) and hurt themselves.
I agree, regardless of balance, an ability is more interesting when using it is a tactical choice, not just used whenever possible. To be fair, use of the medivac boost is often a tactical choice. Boosting in to drop means it's not possible to retreat quickly for 20 seconds. When retreating, it's always a good choice to boost, which makes it a bit less interesting. If the medivac boost cost mana, there would always be a drawback to using it, however small. Another possible change is increasing the cooldown.
Medivac boost is a great addition to sc2 because it encourages multi-pronged aggression and harass. An energy requirement or cooldown increase wouldn't necessarily reduce its effectiveness. If the cooldown was removed or reduced or the speed increase was greater, medivac boost could be a stronger ability while draining mana over time.
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On March 17 2013 15:07 unteqair wrote:Show nested quote +Our general thinking on new units and abilities is that using them will always be learned faster than defending against them for obvious reasons. Because we’re already seeing some players defend against the new Medivacs extremely well, we definitely want to wait on this feedback to really make sure that it is in fact overpowered before making a change. Trust in Blizzard. That sounds very reasonable. I doubt they'll nerf Terran in an immediate time frame if one doesn't win this tournament. They'll probably combine that with the fact that Terrans are not performing particularly well on the Korean Ladder. They probably won't soon nerf them even if one does win the tournament; the quote makes it seem like letting time pass is key to them. Letting players adjust is important. After other P's see what MC did with his phoenix play to shut down medivacs and what he did with his oracles to keep pressure on Terran, I'm sure the play will change a bit. It's certainly more exciting than gateway compositions. I'm just concerned that they'll nerf the VR. I might be alone in this, but I like the new PvP. By the way, I don't think Blizzard gives a damn what a bunch of people complain about. They seem to have picked what they pay attention to: numbers.
What do you like about how void rays function in PvP? I'm just curious as I'm having trouble understanding the new match up.
Oh and yeah I agree that (thankfully) Blizzard doesn't pay much attention to us forum dwellers.
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On March 17 2013 15:01 Geos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 14:53 Rabiator wrote:On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote: "We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered.
The main reason why we feel this way is that it’s difficult for Protoss to keep up in economy while executing this strategy. In pro level tournament games, we’ve seen this army composition countered in many different ways, and we’re pretty sure that even pros haven’t quite developed an optimal counter-strategy for dealing with Protoss air compositions." All this blabbering about pros shows that they either have no clue how to design a game which will be equally difficult for all levels of skill OR that they simply do not care about casuals or low level leagues. Honestly ... SC2 is designed as an eSports game first and foremost and that is a terrible concept, because that allows them to make stupid decisions which basically say "suck it casuals". How can a group of friends have fun playing the game if one race is significantly easier to play with "winning strategy X"? Stupid ... juust stupid. What? Many areas of the game have been altered to appeal to the casual fan base. Just compare SC2 too Broodwar. Over the course of two years I have gone from bronze to masters and what I have learnt is that there is no point in balancing for casuals. I can kill four of my friends(team game only bronze) at the same time by just massing stalkers. They claim stalkers are ridiculously overpowered. As long as you can get ahead by macroing better than any unit composition can appear over powered. And that is one of the problems. It is "balanced around macroing" and not about strategy and playing smart. All you need to do is macro macro macro and then a-move.
In a game of Broodwar you could still play against your friends and not be ridiculously overpowered, because everyone is limited by the unit movement and the 12 unit selection limit. Unlimited unit selection is NOT GOOD for casuals ...
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On March 17 2013 15:19 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:01 Geos13 wrote:On March 17 2013 14:53 Rabiator wrote:On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote: "We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered.
The main reason why we feel this way is that it’s difficult for Protoss to keep up in economy while executing this strategy. In pro level tournament games, we’ve seen this army composition countered in many different ways, and we’re pretty sure that even pros haven’t quite developed an optimal counter-strategy for dealing with Protoss air compositions." All this blabbering about pros shows that they either have no clue how to design a game which will be equally difficult for all levels of skill OR that they simply do not care about casuals or low level leagues. Honestly ... SC2 is designed as an eSports game first and foremost and that is a terrible concept, because that allows them to make stupid decisions which basically say "suck it casuals". How can a group of friends have fun playing the game if one race is significantly easier to play with "winning strategy X"? Stupid ... juust stupid. What? Many areas of the game have been altered to appeal to the casual fan base. Just compare SC2 too Broodwar. Over the course of two years I have gone from bronze to masters and what I have learnt is that there is no point in balancing for casuals. I can kill four of my friends(team game only bronze) at the same time by just massing stalkers. They claim stalkers are ridiculously overpowered. As long as you can get ahead by macroing better than any unit composition can appear over powered. And that is one of the problems. It is "balanced around macroing" and not about strategy and playing smart. All you need to do is macro macro macro and then a-move. In a game of Broodwar you could still play against your friends and not be ridiculously overpowered, because everyone is limited by the unit movement and the 12 unit selection limit. Unlimited unit selection is NOT GOOD for casuals ...
I admittedly haven't played much broodwar and was incredibly terrible. However after playing SC2 for a year I happened to play Broodwar with a friend who had been able to easily beat anyone in our group of friends. I rolled him because I now understand the importance of macro... Also everything I have heard reinforces my opinion that macro was vital to playing broodwar. Honestly it sounds like you want a game with out the economy side of SC2 which would be so different from SC2 that you might as well find a different game. I think there are custom games that might suit your interest more (marine arena etc.)
Edit: I'm not trying to say you don't have a perfectly valid opinion but just that the game you are describing isn't starcraft. I don't know if there are any RTS games on the market like what you are describing and maybe there should be but I really hope starcraft doesn't become the game you want because then it wouldn't be the game I want
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People trying to draw balance conclusions from top Korean Terrans wrecking foreigners? Can we wait a bit before we drop the nerf hammer so quick?
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On March 17 2013 15:19 Rabiator wrote: And that is one of the problems. It is "balanced around macroing" and not about strategy and playing smart. All you need to do is macro macro macro and then a-move.
In a game of Broodwar you could still play against your friends and not be ridiculously overpowered, because everyone is limited by the unit movement and the 12 unit selection limit. Unlimited unit selection is NOT GOOD for casuals ...
Honestly, you really need to pick a better angle. It was never that hard to select 12 units, then do the same with the next 12, etc etc. In the end, if you were playing against someone with worse macro, you STILL had a large numbers advantage. Also, to deny a build that focuses on high amounts of units as not strategic is also a fallacy. "I know I'm better at building large amounts of units so I'm just going to outbuild them" is indeed a valid strategic viewpoint.
EDIT: ^ albeit a shallow one.
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On March 05 2013 09:32 prOpSnuffe wrote: Did blizzard just give up on mech TvP or what? Because right now its still not good enougt too be viable. Otherwise, im happy that they are taking it slow and not rushing to "fix" anything right away.
Sure seems like it. I said a long time ago that the Widow Mine and Hellbat will just end up being used in conjunction with Bio versus Protoss, and not with Tanks and Thors.
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On March 17 2013 15:39 Bagration wrote: People trying to draw balance conclusions from top Korean Terrans wrecking foreigners? Can we wait a bit before we drop the nerf hammer so quick? There was quite a bit of korean vs korean today too.
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On March 17 2013 15:49 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:32 prOpSnuffe wrote: Did blizzard just give up on mech TvP or what? Because right now its still not good enougt too be viable. Otherwise, im happy that they are taking it slow and not rushing to "fix" anything right away. Sure seems like it. I said a long time ago that the Widow Mine and Hellbat will just end up being used in conjunction with Bio versus Protoss, and not with Tanks and Thors.
I think part of the reason is also that Bio received a massive buff with the turbovacs. Why try to learn a new style when what you were already competitive with is now just flat out better? Although there are so many problems with mech that it is hard to imagine it being viable.
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On March 17 2013 15:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:39 Bagration wrote: People trying to draw balance conclusions from top Korean Terrans wrecking foreigners? Can we wait a bit before we drop the nerf hammer so quick? There was quite a bit of korean vs korean today too.
Life beat Polt (3-2) Innovation beat Leenock (3-0) Korean Zerg vs. Korean Terran = 1-1
MC beat Mvp (3-1) Rain beat Jjakji (3-2) Korean Protoss vs. Korean Terran = 2-0
Everything else was mirrors.
Conclusion: Not enough data, but seems pretty decent. Let's stop the balance whine until we see some GSL action.
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On March 17 2013 15:59 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 17 2013 15:39 Bagration wrote: People trying to draw balance conclusions from top Korean Terrans wrecking foreigners? Can we wait a bit before we drop the nerf hammer so quick? There was quite a bit of korean vs korean today too. Life beat Polt (3-2) Innovation beat Leenock (3-0) Korean Zerg vs. Korean Terran = 1-1 MC beat Mvp (3-1) Rain beat Jjakji (3-2) Korean Protoss vs. Korean Terran = 2-0 Everything else was mirrors. Conclusion: Not enough data, but seems pretty decent. Let's stop the balance whine until we see some GSL action. I am not saying to balance based off of this, but I am saying that it wasnt just foreigners getting stomped today.
There was also Polt over Creator that you missed.
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On March 17 2013 15:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:39 Bagration wrote: People trying to draw balance conclusions from top Korean Terrans wrecking foreigners? Can we wait a bit before we drop the nerf hammer so quick? There was quite a bit of korean vs korean today too. And the Korean non-Terrans performed very well against the Korean Terrans.
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On March 17 2013 15:19 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:01 Geos13 wrote:On March 17 2013 14:53 Rabiator wrote:On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote: "We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered.
The main reason why we feel this way is that it’s difficult for Protoss to keep up in economy while executing this strategy. In pro level tournament games, we’ve seen this army composition countered in many different ways, and we’re pretty sure that even pros haven’t quite developed an optimal counter-strategy for dealing with Protoss air compositions." All this blabbering about pros shows that they either have no clue how to design a game which will be equally difficult for all levels of skill OR that they simply do not care about casuals or low level leagues. Honestly ... SC2 is designed as an eSports game first and foremost and that is a terrible concept, because that allows them to make stupid decisions which basically say "suck it casuals". How can a group of friends have fun playing the game if one race is significantly easier to play with "winning strategy X"? Stupid ... juust stupid. What? Many areas of the game have been altered to appeal to the casual fan base. Just compare SC2 too Broodwar. Over the course of two years I have gone from bronze to masters and what I have learnt is that there is no point in balancing for casuals. I can kill four of my friends(team game only bronze) at the same time by just massing stalkers. They claim stalkers are ridiculously overpowered. As long as you can get ahead by macroing better than any unit composition can appear over powered. And that is one of the problems. It is "balanced around macroing" and not about strategy and playing smart. All you need to do is macro macro macro and then a-move. In a game of Broodwar you could still play against your friends and not be ridiculously overpowered, because everyone is limited by the unit movement and the 12 unit selection limit. Unlimited unit selection is NOT GOOD for casuals ...
Oh please. I could roll my friends in SC1 because I knew how to macro and they didn't. We had to go 1v1v1 (near 2v1) for it to be a fair fight.
I made more workers more consistently, expanded more aggressively, and could keep my minerals down better. I won. Just like in SC2.
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On March 17 2013 15:19 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:01 Geos13 wrote:On March 17 2013 14:53 Rabiator wrote:On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote: "We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered.
The main reason why we feel this way is that it’s difficult for Protoss to keep up in economy while executing this strategy. In pro level tournament games, we’ve seen this army composition countered in many different ways, and we’re pretty sure that even pros haven’t quite developed an optimal counter-strategy for dealing with Protoss air compositions." All this blabbering about pros shows that they either have no clue how to design a game which will be equally difficult for all levels of skill OR that they simply do not care about casuals or low level leagues. Honestly ... SC2 is designed as an eSports game first and foremost and that is a terrible concept, because that allows them to make stupid decisions which basically say "suck it casuals". How can a group of friends have fun playing the game if one race is significantly easier to play with "winning strategy X"? Stupid ... juust stupid. What? Many areas of the game have been altered to appeal to the casual fan base. Just compare SC2 too Broodwar. Over the course of two years I have gone from bronze to masters and what I have learnt is that there is no point in balancing for casuals. I can kill four of my friends(team game only bronze) at the same time by just massing stalkers. They claim stalkers are ridiculously overpowered. As long as you can get ahead by macroing better than any unit composition can appear over powered. And that is one of the problems. It is "balanced around macroing" and not about strategy and playing smart. All you need to do is macro macro macro and then a-move. In a game of Broodwar you could still play against your friends and not be ridiculously overpowered, because everyone is limited by the unit movement and the 12 unit selection limit. Unlimited unit selection is NOT GOOD for casuals ... I think you must be really terrible at BW, because I find that to be completely not the case. I've literally never lost a single game against any of my friends who play BW, with any race and against any race. In SC2 however I've lost a handful of games against some of them.
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Here is food for thought for the 99% knee jerk people in the community that keep saying to "NERF TERRAN! NERF MEDIVAC OMG"
a) Mutalisks are faster than they are in wings of liberty/Hydralisks are faster + more accessible with vipers b) phoenix have 1 extra range and stargate openings PvT are more common with oracles c) mech is buffed TvT with hellbat/widow mine d) viper abduct/spore requires no evo e) planetary nexus defense
The list goes on. You have to look at all of this together. Imagine medivacs with no speed boost in HOTS vs all of these new things from the other races. Do you understand now?
Dropping would be even more impossible than in wings of liberty in which by the end of wings, Terran drops were non-existent because everyone figured out how to turtle with templar in TvP, turtle with spine/spore/infestor TvZ, and turtle with missile turrets+sensor tower TvT.
The only reason this looks "OP" is because HOTS is a 10x more balanced/exciting or rather HIGHER SKILL CAP game than the end of Lings of liberty ever could be. All of the top players at this MLG have been KOREAN TERRANS, dominating foreigners regardless if they were Z/P/T because the new drop potential from the medivac boost allows superior players to use their multi-tasking for multi-pronged aggression.
About 50/50 of korean Terran, Protoss, and Zerg advanced through the brackets, it is only Terran tilted because there's more korean Terrans at the tournament.
We even saw MC as the first brave soul to use and abuse oracles and the all-in dice roll "did i oracle or not oracle-metagame" vs MVP.
People in the community have no fucking clue about balance and would rather see Terran nerfed into the ground again, it's quite sad. Once again, re-read the list. There's a ton of reasons why the medivac has this new speed boost that are completely justified, and it would look massively underpowered vs HOTS new threats if the community whines enough to influence blizzard like they did during WOL to nerf things that actually aren't problems or already were solved by the players themselves.
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On March 17 2013 18:41 avilo wrote: Here is food for thought for the 99% knee jerk people in the community that keep saying to "NERF TERRAN! NERF MEDIVAC OMG"
a) Mutalisks are faster than they are in wings of liberty/Hydralisks are faster + more accessible with vipers b) phoenix have 1 extra range and stargate openings PvT are more common with oracles c) mech is buffed TvT with hellbat/widow mine d) viper abduct/spore requires no evo e) planetary nexus defense
The list goes on. You have to look at all of this together. Imagine medivacs with no speed boost in HOTS vs all of these new things from the other races. Do you understand now?
Dropping would be even more impossible than in wings of liberty in which by the end of wings, Terran drops were non-existent because everyone figured out how to turtle with templar in TvP, turtle with spine/spore/infestor TvZ, and turtle with missile turrets+sensor tower TvT.
The only reason this looks "OP" is because HOTS is a 10x more balanced/exciting or rather HIGHER SKILL CAP game than the end of Lings of liberty ever could be. All of the top players at this MLG have been KOREAN TERRANS, dominating foreigners regardless if they were Z/P/T because the new drop potential from the medivac boost allows superior players to use their multi-tasking for multi-pronged aggression.
About 50/50 of korean Terran, Protoss, and Zerg advanced through the brackets, it is only Terran tilted because there's more korean Terrans at the tournament.
We even saw MC as the first brave soul to use and abuse oracles and the all-in dice roll "did i oracle or not oracle-metagame" vs MVP.
People in the community have no fucking clue about balance and would rather see Terran nerfed into the ground again, it's quite sad. Once again, re-read the list. There's a ton of reasons why the medivac has this new speed boost that are completely justified, and it would look massively underpowered vs HOTS new threats if the community whines enough to influence blizzard like they did during WOL to nerf things that actually aren't problems or already were solved by the players themselves.
"end of Lings of liberty" really? Lings were broken?
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On March 17 2013 18:54 epoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 18:41 avilo wrote: Here is food for thought for the 99% knee jerk people in the community that keep saying to "NERF TERRAN! NERF MEDIVAC OMG"
a) Mutalisks are faster than they are in wings of liberty/Hydralisks are faster + more accessible with vipers b) phoenix have 1 extra range and stargate openings PvT are more common with oracles c) mech is buffed TvT with hellbat/widow mine d) viper abduct/spore requires no evo e) planetary nexus defense
The list goes on. You have to look at all of this together. Imagine medivacs with no speed boost in HOTS vs all of these new things from the other races. Do you understand now?
Dropping would be even more impossible than in wings of liberty in which by the end of wings, Terran drops were non-existent because everyone figured out how to turtle with templar in TvP, turtle with spine/spore/infestor TvZ, and turtle with missile turrets+sensor tower TvT.
The only reason this looks "OP" is because HOTS is a 10x more balanced/exciting or rather HIGHER SKILL CAP game than the end of Lings of liberty ever could be. All of the top players at this MLG have been KOREAN TERRANS, dominating foreigners regardless if they were Z/P/T because the new drop potential from the medivac boost allows superior players to use their multi-tasking for multi-pronged aggression.
About 50/50 of korean Terran, Protoss, and Zerg advanced through the brackets, it is only Terran tilted because there's more korean Terrans at the tournament.
We even saw MC as the first brave soul to use and abuse oracles and the all-in dice roll "did i oracle or not oracle-metagame" vs MVP.
People in the community have no fucking clue about balance and would rather see Terran nerfed into the ground again, it's quite sad. Once again, re-read the list. There's a ton of reasons why the medivac has this new speed boost that are completely justified, and it would look massively underpowered vs HOTS new threats if the community whines enough to influence blizzard like they did during WOL to nerf things that actually aren't problems or already were solved by the players themselves.
"end of Lings of liberty" really? Lings were broken?
Nope, but it is a jab at zergs dominance at the end of WoL.
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I agree with Avilo that medivac speed is necessary and a good thing to have in the game (separate the good from the bad), but I think everyone can agree that its slightly too strong in its current form.
Either give the ability a small energy cost or double the cooldown, An energy cost would force terrans to choose between boosting and healing. A longer cooldown would make terrans choose between boosting into a base and out of it, in most cases you won't be able to do both.
E. Can't believe Rabiator isn't banned and it still trolling people with this "BW is more casual"-bullcrap.
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On March 17 2013 18:59 Bagi wrote: I agree with Avilo that medivac speed is necessary and a good thing to have in the game (separate the good from the bad), but I think everyone can agree that its slightly too strong in its current form.
Either give the ability a small energy cost or double the cooldown, An energy cost would force terrans to choose between boosting and healing. A longer cooldown would make terrans choose between boosting into a base and out of it, in most cases you won't be able to do both.
A cooldown increase would be way better compared to an energy cost. Medivacs already struggle with energy healing any mid-large bioforce. I'd rather have the pros pick between using the speed for entry or exit.
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Unlimited unit selection is NOT GOOD for casuals ...
I'm sorry, but 12 unit selection was frustrating as fuck as a casual, wanna select your army? nope. 12 at a time!
Obviously it add's alot at higher levels, but for someone completely new to RTS games it makes no sense.
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being zerg myself i'd say that most of the mlg-zergs did not pick up on hots changes. Some WOL styles seem not to not work anymore that well .. If you have a deeper look at the zerg changes, you can see that zerg now has more gas-spending options, so Hots Zerg can opt for a more gas oriented economy (expanding slower), which also makes earlier zerg tech more viable.
Regarding speedvacs .. players refuse to build static defense categorically. I know bout the downside of static defense, however terrans also need turrets to defend muta rushes ? Let's wait and see ..
What's looking crippling/OP to me are widow mines. When used well, they shut down/cripple most typical zerg play such as run-by's, muta harrass, quick reinforcements, creep spread, ling bane surrounds .. I dont't think they can stay this way, as any counter is very APM intensive. So a widow mine/Drop play is hard to stop if both players are at same skill.
However the Terran changes will bring more balance to lower level play and might attract some more terran players. They have gotten rare on the ladder (
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On March 17 2013 18:59 Bagi wrote: I agree with Avilo that medivac speed is necessary and a good thing to have in the game (separate the good from the bad), but I think everyone can agree that its slightly too strong in its current form.
Either give the ability a small energy cost or double the cooldown, An energy cost would force terrans to choose between boosting and healing. A longer cooldown would make terrans choose between boosting into a base and out of it, in most cases you won't be able to do both.
E. Can't believe Rabiator isn't banned and it still trolling people with this "BW is more casual"-bullcrap.
No, see, this is the issue. "Everyone can agree that it's slightly too strong" is irrelevant, because that is based on virtually zero data. It'd be like me seeing two games of banelings rolling through clumped marines and saying the same.
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1. I agree with Avilo 100% on this one. 2. Guys... let MLG finish at least before starting to jump into conclusion balance-wise.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 17 2013 18:59 Bagi wrote: I agree with Avilo that medivac speed is necessary and a good thing to have in the game (separate the good from the bad), but I think everyone can agree that its slightly too strong in its current form.
Either give the ability a small energy cost or double the cooldown, An energy cost would force terrans to choose between boosting and healing. A longer cooldown would make terrans choose between boosting into a base and out of it, in most cases you won't be able to do both.
E. Can't believe Rabiator isn't banned and it still trolling people with this "BW is more casual"-bullcrap.
I play terran and I may be biased, but I do not think there's enough evidence that HotS medivac boosters are OP yet, because it was completely shut down by several players at MLG yesterday without hassle. With the boosters engaged, medivacs' speed is the same as the HotS mutas, and leenock and ret were consistently able to hunt them down or destroy them before the drops even happened. Ret even used vipers to abduct fleeing medivacs. That was some impressive play. Now, what was the problem the pros were facing then? Clumped up mutas vs multi-pronged drops and not having enough static defences, which has never been a balance issue, but a strategic one.
For PvT, MC shut down Mvp's drops w/ his phoenix/oracle opening ezpz.
and to those qqing about that there's no risk/cost associated with the ability, where's the cost/risk associated with the new mutas (passive speed increase, no risk at all) and phoenix (+1 range passive)? Would you rather have the speed of medivacs be passive so it's even with the new mutas/phoenix? In this regard, the medivacs got the short end of the stick, wouldn't you agree?
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Avilo spot on! I want to see at least one GSL before any changes to be made. But spidermines is the unit that may need change somehow from what I've seen so far but after a while.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 17 2013 22:03 AIKfans87 wrote: Avilo spot on! I want to see at least one GSl before any changes to be made. But spidermines is the unit that may need change somehow.
In an interview, David Kim did mention that they are monitoring widow mines, and considering changes/nerfs to the blast radius of the missiles IIRC.
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On March 17 2013 22:05 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:03 AIKfans87 wrote: Avilo spot on! I want to see at least one GSl before any changes to be made. But spidermines is the unit that may need change somehow. In an interview, David Kim did mention that they are monitoring widow mines, and considering changes/nerfs to the blast radius of the missiles IIRC.
Yeah I read it and I understand why they monitoring them. It does a bit much dmg vs light units that are clumped up. But It always takes a whilebefore getting used to play vs it so no need to rush nerfs like in WoL.
We don't need below 10% terran on the ladder due to nerfhammer.
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On March 17 2013 21:59 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 18:59 Bagi wrote: I agree with Avilo that medivac speed is necessary and a good thing to have in the game (separate the good from the bad), but I think everyone can agree that its slightly too strong in its current form.
Either give the ability a small energy cost or double the cooldown, An energy cost would force terrans to choose between boosting and healing. A longer cooldown would make terrans choose between boosting into a base and out of it, in most cases you won't be able to do both.
E. Can't believe Rabiator isn't banned and it still trolling people with this "BW is more casual"-bullcrap. I play terran and I may be biased, but I do not think there's enough evidence that HotS medivac boosters are OP yet, because it was completely shut down by several players at MLG yesterday without hassle. With the boosters engaged, medivacs' speed is the same as the HotS mutas, and leenock and ret were consistently able to hunt them down or destroy them before the drops even happened. Ret even used vipers to abduct fleeing medivacs. That was some impressive play. Now, what was the problem the pros were facing then? Clumped up mutas vs multi-pronged drops and not having enough static defences, which has never been a balance issue, but a strategic one. For PvT, MC shut down Mvp's drops w/ his phoenix/oracle opening ezpz. and to those qqing about that there's no risk/cost associated with the ability, where's the cost/risk associated with the new mutas (passive speed increase, no risk at all) and phoenix (+1 range passive)? Would you rather have the speed of medivacs be passive so it's even with the new mutas/phoenix? In this regard, the medivacs got the short end of the stick, wouldn't you agree?
So basically "it's easy to shut down something almost all terrans will do every game, you just have to go a specific tech path as Zerg or Protoss".
That means it's broken.
If you NEED to go air to beat drops easily, what's the point in having all those other units? You are saying medivacs are fine, because you can easily beat them if you limit your strategic/tech options in the game.
Maybe it terran wasn't 90% guaranteed to be going medivacs every game, that would be fine, but terrans almost always go medivacs, unless they are going mech, which means the only way to beat them is to limit your tech paths, because everything else sucks against them.
The other problem is the really obvious one. MAPS. Stupidfast OP dropships on WoL maps... are you kidding? Stupidfast dropships on maps designed with WoL mapping experience... are you kidding?
A map like Cloud Kingdom, or one of the new maps, where the ground travel time between the main and third is absurd means but air distance is pretty much zero medivacs can do whatever the hell they want. And then there's the massive open air space behind bases in Cloud Kingdom.
I still think medivac speed is wrongly designed/implemented, as it IS too strong, because it allows you to get in and out again with a boost with no real issues, and unless the opponent picks a specific tech tree they can't do much. But maps are also being used which are either WoL maps, or designed for WoL balance, and speed medivacs break that balance because they are far far far far more abusive than old medivacs. Maps need to catch up too, but inherently the design is also overpowered because you can get in and then out as well by using the boost... that is wrong, IMO.
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On March 05 2013 09:24 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. Clearly you don't understand the game, as those things are not even close to similar.
Yeah. A unit with a cool-down based ability that greatly increases mobility and raises the skill ceiling. Not even close to similar (despite being virtually exactly the same.)
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 17 2013 22:13 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 21:59 dacimvrl wrote:On March 17 2013 18:59 Bagi wrote: I agree with Avilo that medivac speed is necessary and a good thing to have in the game (separate the good from the bad), but I think everyone can agree that its slightly too strong in its current form.
Either give the ability a small energy cost or double the cooldown, An energy cost would force terrans to choose between boosting and healing. A longer cooldown would make terrans choose between boosting into a base and out of it, in most cases you won't be able to do both.
E. Can't believe Rabiator isn't banned and it still trolling people with this "BW is more casual"-bullcrap. I play terran and I may be biased, but I do not think there's enough evidence that HotS medivac boosters are OP yet, because it was completely shut down by several players at MLG yesterday without hassle. With the boosters engaged, medivacs' speed is the same as the HotS mutas, and leenock and ret were consistently able to hunt them down or destroy them before the drops even happened. Ret even used vipers to abduct fleeing medivacs. That was some impressive play. Now, what was the problem the pros were facing then? Clumped up mutas vs multi-pronged drops and not having enough static defences, which has never been a balance issue, but a strategic one. For PvT, MC shut down Mvp's drops w/ his phoenix/oracle opening ezpz. and to those qqing about that there's no risk/cost associated with the ability, where's the cost/risk associated with the new mutas (passive speed increase, no risk at all) and phoenix (+1 range passive)? Would you rather have the speed of medivacs be passive so it's even with the new mutas/phoenix? In this regard, the medivacs got the short end of the stick, wouldn't you agree? So basically "it's easy to shut down something almost all terrans will do every game, you just have to go a specific tech path as Zerg or Protoss". That means it's broken. If you NEED to go air to beat drops easily, what's the point in having all those other units? You are saying medivacs are fine, because you can easily beat them if you limit your strategic/tech options in the game. Maybe it terran wasn't 90% guaranteed to be going medivacs every game, that would be fine, but terrans almost always go medivacs, unless they are going mech, which means the only way to beat them is to limit your tech paths, because everything else sucks against them. The other problem is the really obvious one. MAPS. Stupidfast OP dropships on WoL maps... are you kidding? Stupidfast dropships on maps designed with WoL mapping experience... are you kidding? A map like Cloud Kingdom, or one of the new maps, where the ground travel time between the main and third is absurd means but air distance is pretty much zero medivacs can do whatever the hell they want. And then there's the massive open air space behind bases in Cloud Kingdom. I still think medivac speed is wrongly designed/implemented, as it IS too strong, because it allows you to get in and out again with a boost with no real issues, and unless the opponent picks a specific tech tree they can't do much. But maps are also being used which are either WoL maps, or designed for WoL balance, and speed medivacs break that balance because they are far far far far more abusive than old medivacs. Maps need to catch up too, but inherently the design is also overpowered because you can get in and then out as well by using the boost... that is wrong, IMO.
isn't that the whole game?? you build what counters your opponent's units.... Terrans always have to go vikings vs toss because 90% of them go colossi vs terran? With your logic, colossi are broken too........ Terrans always have to tech to ghosts vs HTs, in that regard HTs are broken too.. Terrans have to go marauders vs roaches or Ultras, I guess those are broken too.... It''s one hard-counter unit, not an entire tech path, fyi.
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On March 17 2013 22:32 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:13 Lonyo wrote:On March 17 2013 21:59 dacimvrl wrote:On March 17 2013 18:59 Bagi wrote: I agree with Avilo that medivac speed is necessary and a good thing to have in the game (separate the good from the bad), but I think everyone can agree that its slightly too strong in its current form.
Either give the ability a small energy cost or double the cooldown, An energy cost would force terrans to choose between boosting and healing. A longer cooldown would make terrans choose between boosting into a base and out of it, in most cases you won't be able to do both.
E. Can't believe Rabiator isn't banned and it still trolling people with this "BW is more casual"-bullcrap. I play terran and I may be biased, but I do not think there's enough evidence that HotS medivac boosters are OP yet, because it was completely shut down by several players at MLG yesterday without hassle. With the boosters engaged, medivacs' speed is the same as the HotS mutas, and leenock and ret were consistently able to hunt them down or destroy them before the drops even happened. Ret even used vipers to abduct fleeing medivacs. That was some impressive play. Now, what was the problem the pros were facing then? Clumped up mutas vs multi-pronged drops and not having enough static defences, which has never been a balance issue, but a strategic one. For PvT, MC shut down Mvp's drops w/ his phoenix/oracle opening ezpz. and to those qqing about that there's no risk/cost associated with the ability, where's the cost/risk associated with the new mutas (passive speed increase, no risk at all) and phoenix (+1 range passive)? Would you rather have the speed of medivacs be passive so it's even with the new mutas/phoenix? In this regard, the medivacs got the short end of the stick, wouldn't you agree? So basically "it's easy to shut down something almost all terrans will do every game, you just have to go a specific tech path as Zerg or Protoss". That means it's broken. If you NEED to go air to beat drops easily, what's the point in having all those other units? You are saying medivacs are fine, because you can easily beat them if you limit your strategic/tech options in the game. Maybe it terran wasn't 90% guaranteed to be going medivacs every game, that would be fine, but terrans almost always go medivacs, unless they are going mech, which means the only way to beat them is to limit your tech paths, because everything else sucks against them. The other problem is the really obvious one. MAPS. Stupidfast OP dropships on WoL maps... are you kidding? Stupidfast dropships on maps designed with WoL mapping experience... are you kidding? A map like Cloud Kingdom, or one of the new maps, where the ground travel time between the main and third is absurd means but air distance is pretty much zero medivacs can do whatever the hell they want. And then there's the massive open air space behind bases in Cloud Kingdom. I still think medivac speed is wrongly designed/implemented, as it IS too strong, because it allows you to get in and out again with a boost with no real issues, and unless the opponent picks a specific tech tree they can't do much. But maps are also being used which are either WoL maps, or designed for WoL balance, and speed medivacs break that balance because they are far far far far more abusive than old medivacs. Maps need to catch up too, but inherently the design is also overpowered because you can get in and then out as well by using the boost... that is wrong, IMO. isn't that the whole game?? you build what counters your opponent's units.... Terrans always have to go vikings vs toss because 90% of them go colossi vs terran? With your logic, colossi are broken too........ Terrans always have to tech to ghosts vs HTs, in that regard HTs are broken too.. Terrans have to go marauders vs roaches or Ultras, I guess those are broken too.... It''s one hard-counter unit, not an entire tech path, fyi.
Which is one of the things they were trying to "fix" with HotS... like vipers for zerg to counter colossi instead of requiring corruptors. Which is why introducing a change to a unit that brings back that element is stupid.
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from viewership experience i think widow mines need some work, and this is already under investigation. medivac boost might be ok, the original speed was designed for smaller maps when WOL came out.
Also note, that the cheap defense/ground control allows the terran to literally have his whole army underway in drop ships. So a nerf of widows will also nerf drop play slightly. currently it is russian roulette to counter drops with ling runbys
btw its funny, that zergs wanted the lurker back and terran got it. widows are more similar to lurkers than swarmhosts. especially the psychological impact of knowing widows are on the field leads to a hard limitation of mobility, as you have to check each walking path before moving. lurkers where the reason why i picked zerg in bw
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 17 2013 22:43 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:32 dacimvrl wrote:On March 17 2013 22:13 Lonyo wrote:On March 17 2013 21:59 dacimvrl wrote:On March 17 2013 18:59 Bagi wrote: I agree with Avilo that medivac speed is necessary and a good thing to have in the game (separate the good from the bad), but I think everyone can agree that its slightly too strong in its current form.
Either give the ability a small energy cost or double the cooldown, An energy cost would force terrans to choose between boosting and healing. A longer cooldown would make terrans choose between boosting into a base and out of it, in most cases you won't be able to do both.
E. Can't believe Rabiator isn't banned and it still trolling people with this "BW is more casual"-bullcrap. I play terran and I may be biased, but I do not think there's enough evidence that HotS medivac boosters are OP yet, because it was completely shut down by several players at MLG yesterday without hassle. With the boosters engaged, medivacs' speed is the same as the HotS mutas, and leenock and ret were consistently able to hunt them down or destroy them before the drops even happened. Ret even used vipers to abduct fleeing medivacs. That was some impressive play. Now, what was the problem the pros were facing then? Clumped up mutas vs multi-pronged drops and not having enough static defences, which has never been a balance issue, but a strategic one. For PvT, MC shut down Mvp's drops w/ his phoenix/oracle opening ezpz. and to those qqing about that there's no risk/cost associated with the ability, where's the cost/risk associated with the new mutas (passive speed increase, no risk at all) and phoenix (+1 range passive)? Would you rather have the speed of medivacs be passive so it's even with the new mutas/phoenix? In this regard, the medivacs got the short end of the stick, wouldn't you agree? So basically "it's easy to shut down something almost all terrans will do every game, you just have to go a specific tech path as Zerg or Protoss". That means it's broken. If you NEED to go air to beat drops easily, what's the point in having all those other units? You are saying medivacs are fine, because you can easily beat them if you limit your strategic/tech options in the game. Maybe it terran wasn't 90% guaranteed to be going medivacs every game, that would be fine, but terrans almost always go medivacs, unless they are going mech, which means the only way to beat them is to limit your tech paths, because everything else sucks against them. The other problem is the really obvious one. MAPS. Stupidfast OP dropships on WoL maps... are you kidding? Stupidfast dropships on maps designed with WoL mapping experience... are you kidding? A map like Cloud Kingdom, or one of the new maps, where the ground travel time between the main and third is absurd means but air distance is pretty much zero medivacs can do whatever the hell they want. And then there's the massive open air space behind bases in Cloud Kingdom. I still think medivac speed is wrongly designed/implemented, as it IS too strong, because it allows you to get in and out again with a boost with no real issues, and unless the opponent picks a specific tech tree they can't do much. But maps are also being used which are either WoL maps, or designed for WoL balance, and speed medivacs break that balance because they are far far far far more abusive than old medivacs. Maps need to catch up too, but inherently the design is also overpowered because you can get in and then out as well by using the boost... that is wrong, IMO. isn't that the whole game?? you build what counters your opponent's units.... Terrans always have to go vikings vs toss because 90% of them go colossi vs terran? With your logic, colossi are broken too........ Terrans always have to tech to ghosts vs HTs, in that regard HTs are broken too.. Terrans have to go marauders vs roaches or Ultras, I guess those are broken too.... It''s one hard-counter unit, not an entire tech path, fyi. Which is one of the things they were trying to "fix" with HotS... like vipers for zerg to counter colossi instead of requiring corruptors. Which is why introducing a change to a unit that brings back that element is stupid. I don't think that you understand the meaning of this. It's not necessary a "pblm" vs "fix" scenario, it's a strategy game, and there's nothing wrong with units that counter certain units better than others..... it may be blatantly obvious, but I am just gonna throw it out there anyway..
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yeah just nerf mines slightly. would be awesome if they just did 100% friendly damage so T just cant sit above them and if Z attacks T just stims and clicks behind the mines. either Z units explode in mines or you have to move back while T slowly forward burrows the mines and tanks in your face. the problem is not mines by themselves but Z has nothing to kill mines (with single lings for example) if they are protected by MMM + hellbats. and T players havent even started to add hellbats to their comp. once they start dropping MM + hellbat...holy fuck superfast medivacs AND you cant defend with lings?! congratz, Z will be superfucked once T start to REALLY abuse this. right now its kindergarten compared to what is possible if mines and hellbats are mixed in the drops!
the medivacspeed is fine, it just needs to have a drawback. there are numerous suggestions. cost a significant amount of energy (has to hurt...25 will do literally nothing), way higher cooldown, cant load or unload unit for x amount of sec after using it, cant heal after using it for x amount of sec, whatever.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 17 2013 22:58 Decendos wrote:
the medivacspeed is fine, it just needs to have a drawback. there are numerous suggestions. cost a significant amount of energy (has to hurt...25 will do literally nothing), way higher cooldown, cant load or unload unit for x amount of sec after using it, cant heal after using it for x amount of sec, whatever.
what do you say the drawback of the new passive muta speed buff is then? It's always on and you don't even have to hit a button to activate it, no cool down either.. Not to mention medivacs aren't even faster than mutas with the boosters engaged....
in hots, mutas got perma speed buff and increased regen, medivacs got a cooldown-based speed boost.. mutas obviously got the better deal.. so what do you say to make the muta speed a cooldown-based ability too?
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On March 17 2013 22:58 Decendos wrote: yeah just nerf mines slightly. would be awesome if they just did 100% friendly damage They already do 100% friendly damage.
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On March 17 2013 23:11 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:58 Decendos wrote: yeah just nerf mines slightly. would be awesome if they just did 100% friendly damage They already do 100% friendly damage.
really? okay well then they need to lower radius a bit ^^
On March 17 2013 23:09 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:58 Decendos wrote:
the medivacspeed is fine, it just needs to have a drawback. there are numerous suggestions. cost a significant amount of energy (has to hurt...25 will do literally nothing), way higher cooldown, cant load or unload unit for x amount of sec after using it, cant heal after using it for x amount of sec, whatever. what do you say the drawback of the new passive muta speed buff is then? It's always on and you don't even have to hit a button to activate it, no cool down either.. Not to mention medivacs aren't even faster than mutas with the boosters engaged.... in hots, mutas got perma speed buff and increased regen, medivacs got a cooldown based speed boost.. mutas obviously got the better deal..
yeah a 7% speedboost is the same as a 50% or so speedboost. oh wait speedboost/=speedboost. and btw ling bling muta needed a buff since not only did medivacs get faster but also mines being a hardcounter to ling bling muta and hellbats to ling bling was introduced. the day T start to cry about ling bling muta being imba will be a new dimension of crying. ^^
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 17 2013 23:16 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 23:11 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 22:58 Decendos wrote: yeah just nerf mines slightly. would be awesome if they just did 100% friendly damage They already do 100% friendly damage. really? okay well then they need to lower radius a bit ^^ Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 23:09 dacimvrl wrote:On March 17 2013 22:58 Decendos wrote:
the medivacspeed is fine, it just needs to have a drawback. there are numerous suggestions. cost a significant amount of energy (has to hurt...25 will do literally nothing), way higher cooldown, cant load or unload unit for x amount of sec after using it, cant heal after using it for x amount of sec, whatever. what do you say the drawback of the new passive muta speed buff is then? It's always on and you don't even have to hit a button to activate it, no cool down either.. Not to mention medivacs aren't even faster than mutas with the boosters engaged.... in hots, mutas got perma speed buff and increased regen, medivacs got a cooldown based speed boost.. mutas obviously got the better deal.. yeah a 7% speedboost is the same as a 50% or so speedboost. oh wait speedboost/=speedboost. and btw ling bling muta needed a buff since not only did medivacs get faster but also mines being a hardcounter to ling bling muta and hellbats to ling bling was introduced. the day T start to cry about ling bling muta being imba will be a new dimension of crying. ^^
lol, nice dodge so what's the drawback again? none, nada.. btw, hellbats weren't introduced to address ling/bling..... if you actually followed the dev posts, it was introduced to make mech viable in tvp......... and medivac speed was introduced cuz of how drops were shut down so easily, now drops are more viable, and ppl start to qq.... dude, go get all your facts straight.. i mean, you didn't even know how widow mines worked, and you were qqing about something they already do.. god, why do i even bother..
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On March 17 2013 23:19 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 23:16 Decendos wrote:On March 17 2013 23:11 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 22:58 Decendos wrote: yeah just nerf mines slightly. would be awesome if they just did 100% friendly damage They already do 100% friendly damage. really? okay well then they need to lower radius a bit ^^ On March 17 2013 23:09 dacimvrl wrote:On March 17 2013 22:58 Decendos wrote:
the medivacspeed is fine, it just needs to have a drawback. there are numerous suggestions. cost a significant amount of energy (has to hurt...25 will do literally nothing), way higher cooldown, cant load or unload unit for x amount of sec after using it, cant heal after using it for x amount of sec, whatever. what do you say the drawback of the new passive muta speed buff is then? It's always on and you don't even have to hit a button to activate it, no cool down either.. Not to mention medivacs aren't even faster than mutas with the boosters engaged.... in hots, mutas got perma speed buff and increased regen, medivacs got a cooldown based speed boost.. mutas obviously got the better deal.. yeah a 7% speedboost is the same as a 50% or so speedboost. oh wait speedboost/=speedboost. and btw ling bling muta needed a buff since not only did medivacs get faster but also mines being a hardcounter to ling bling muta and hellbats to ling bling was introduced. the day T start to cry about ling bling muta being imba will be a new dimension of crying. ^^ lol, nice dodge so what's the drawback again? none, nada.. btw, hellbats weren't introduced to address ling/bling..... if you actually followed the dev posts, it was introduced to make mech viable in tvp......... dude, go get all your facts straight.. god, why do i even bother..
yeah hellbats are introduced to kill zealots...but guess what they also rape lings and are decent vs banes. and mines also was introduced and counters ling, blings and mutas. and yes mutaspeed and regen has no drawback because they TESTED it and mutas were unplayable before this change because of the mentioned new counters hellabts, mines and faster medivacs.
so safe your comment why you even bother if you just dont want your race being balanced but rather like to abuse imbaspeed and mines. luckily most players want a balanced and fun game so you will need to deal with a patch that brings back balance.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 17 2013 23:22 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 23:19 dacimvrl wrote:On March 17 2013 23:16 Decendos wrote:On March 17 2013 23:11 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 22:58 Decendos wrote: yeah just nerf mines slightly. would be awesome if they just did 100% friendly damage They already do 100% friendly damage. really? okay well then they need to lower radius a bit ^^ On March 17 2013 23:09 dacimvrl wrote:On March 17 2013 22:58 Decendos wrote:
the medivacspeed is fine, it just needs to have a drawback. there are numerous suggestions. cost a significant amount of energy (has to hurt...25 will do literally nothing), way higher cooldown, cant load or unload unit for x amount of sec after using it, cant heal after using it for x amount of sec, whatever. what do you say the drawback of the new passive muta speed buff is then? It's always on and you don't even have to hit a button to activate it, no cool down either.. Not to mention medivacs aren't even faster than mutas with the boosters engaged.... in hots, mutas got perma speed buff and increased regen, medivacs got a cooldown based speed boost.. mutas obviously got the better deal.. yeah a 7% speedboost is the same as a 50% or so speedboost. oh wait speedboost/=speedboost. and btw ling bling muta needed a buff since not only did medivacs get faster but also mines being a hardcounter to ling bling muta and hellbats to ling bling was introduced. the day T start to cry about ling bling muta being imba will be a new dimension of crying. ^^ lol, nice dodge so what's the drawback again? none, nada.. btw, hellbats weren't introduced to address ling/bling..... if you actually followed the dev posts, it was introduced to make mech viable in tvp......... dude, go get all your facts straight.. god, why do i even bother.. yeah hellbats are introduced to kill zealots...but guess what they also rape lings and are decent vs banes. and mines also was introduced and counters ling, blings and mutas. and yes mutaspeed and regen has no drawback because they TESTED it and mutas were unplayable before this change because of the mentioned new counters hellabts, mines and faster medivacs. so safe your comment why you even bother if you just dont want your race being balanced but rather like to abuse imbaspeed and mines. luckily most players want a balanced and fun game so you will need to deal with a patch that brings back balance.
lol, so let me get this straight, if it's zerg, it means they tested it, and if it's terran, they never tested it? It's not even that I don't want my race to be balanced, but look at the interviews at MLG, pro zerg players like Suppy addressed the issue, he said it's not a balance issue, but ppl just haven't figured out the specific timings..etc. Then again, I guess you know more about balance and ZvT than the pro zerg players.. Hell, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba..
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The thing about the speed boost is that, besides opening up new strategies for Terran, it also makes all of their bio/drop strats from WoL much more potent. By assigning an additional 3 APM (turning on the boost 3 times a minute) to the control of drops, a terran can double their drop effectiveness from WoL. While the other races are scrambling to adapt to faster drop timings by cutting things from their builds and experimenting with their new toys to find an answer, terrans are able to do the same thing as before, which gives them a leg up right now.
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On March 17 2013 19:03 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 18:59 Bagi wrote: I agree with Avilo that medivac speed is necessary and a good thing to have in the game (separate the good from the bad), but I think everyone can agree that its slightly too strong in its current form.
Either give the ability a small energy cost or double the cooldown, An energy cost would force terrans to choose between boosting and healing. A longer cooldown would make terrans choose between boosting into a base and out of it, in most cases you won't be able to do both. A cooldown increase would be way better compared to an energy cost. Medivacs already struggle with energy healing any mid-large bioforce. I'd rather have the pros pick between using the speed for entry or exit.
I'd go with an energy cost of 50 and remove the cooldown entirely. If someone really wants to get a medivac into someones base then they should be able to. You can't stop a zerg that really wants to drop you - they send 10 overlords. Also introduces new micro to the game - turning heal on and off.
Hellbats get slaughtered by banelings. The only thing that saves them is the siege tanks almost inevitably behind them.
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I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation.
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On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation.
They will only reduce the splash radius of the Widow, that way a- moving small units doesn't get punished that heavily. So they would become more noob friendly.
While I miss Siege Upgrade, it was needed. There would be no way to survive a push by the opponent if you decide to harass early. And we already see how vulnerable Terran is if they decide to be so harassment heavy in the early game. Only the players that decide to only defend have the biggest problems. So forcing the other races to be aggressive is a good thing and makes the game interesting. But we already had this discussion in WoL. Where Zerg early game was almost untouchable, but you needed to attack anyway or they will just macro and overrun you. Keeping up with them was risky as hell because they switch into full army production and run over you. What Terran does right now seems equally strong as what Zerg pulled of in WoL, but 10 times harder to control.
I think nothing should be changed, until we see people getting used to the situation and how they manage to transition into the lategame. Because the lategame of Zerg with the Viper and the new Ultra is just insane. And if they can reach it to easy, then it will look more one-sided then Broodlord/Infestor.
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Make everythign OP its way funner
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Mech is so broken as fuck.
Im a terran.
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On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation.
Wait.... what? Have u not seen roach pressure, baneling busts, void ray + gateway allin, blink stalker all-ins?
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On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend.
Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on.
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On March 18 2013 00:00 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. They will only reduce the splash radius of the Widow, that way a- moving small units doesn't get punished that heavily. So they would become more noob friendly. While I miss Siege Upgrade, it was needed. There would be no way to survive a push by the opponent if you decide to harass early. And we already see how vulnerable Terran is if they decide to be so harassment heavy in the early game. Only the players that decide to only defend have the biggest problems. So forcing the other races to be aggressive is a good thing and makes the game interesting. But we already had this discussion in WoL. Where Zerg early game was almost untouchable, but you needed to attack anyway or they will just macro and overrun you. Keeping up with them was risky as hell because they switch into full army production and run over you. What Terran does right now seems equally strong as what Zerg pulled of in WoL, but 10 times harder to control. I think nothing should be changed, until we see people getting used to the situation and how they manage to transition into the lategame. Because the lategame of Zerg with the Viper and the new Ultra is just insane. And if they can reach it to easy, then it will look more one-sided then Broodlord/Infestor.
equally strong as zerg early game in wol?
No Terran can be greedy(3OC into 1-1-1 double ups) and still herras the Zerg. Zerg in WoL could only play defensive with that style
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On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote: Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend.
Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on.
Nerfing the tanks would make sense for TvT and thats about it. You aren't seeing most people go for tanks, in TvZ especially, because mines are so cheap, can be reactor'd out, and are pound for pound more efficient and frankly better than tanks. They are more mobile, you get punished less for getting caught without mines down because they can attack at 1 range (where siege tanks getting caught can be game ending). I think the correct path here is to nerf the splash radius, or maybe the damage splash. Lower the damage at the far edge of the blast, and keep the initial damage (like they were doing with seekers).
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I liked this statement and agree with their approach
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On March 18 2013 00:00 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. They will only reduce the splash radius of the Widow, that way a- moving small units doesn't get punished that heavily. So they would become more noob friendly. While I miss Siege Upgrade, it was needed. There would be no way to survive a push by the opponent if you decide to harass early. And we already see how vulnerable Terran is if they decide to be so harassment heavy in the early game. Only the players that decide to only defend have the biggest problems. So forcing the other races to be aggressive is a good thing and makes the game interesting. But we already had this discussion in WoL. Where Zerg early game was almost untouchable, but you needed to attack anyway or they will just macro and overrun you. Keeping up with them was risky as hell because they switch into full army production and run over you. What Terran does right now seems equally strong as what Zerg pulled of in WoL, but 10 times harder to control. I think nothing should be changed, until we see people getting used to the situation and how they manage to transition into the lategame. Because the lategame of Zerg with the Viper and the new Ultra is just insane. And if they can reach it to easy, then it will look more one-sided then Broodlord/Infestor.
I agree with you on the mine, but the rest of the post... either I don't understand you or you're not making any sense.
I don't see at all how that mirrors Zerg early game in WoL (which, by the way, certainly shouldn't be the template for HotS). Terran wasn't exactly vulnerable in WoL. There is no additional Zerg threat in HotS, therefore this defensive buff, in this matchup, isn't necessary, and it's too much.
I don't want Terran to stop attacking, I just think the matchup will always have problems if there is no Zerg threat at all. There is no trade off, and that's bad RTS gameplay. You're supposed to be somewhat vulnerable to an attack if you don't invest in an army.
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On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on.
The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build.
Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry.
I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably.
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After watching tournament play, I think Zerg definitely deserves a buff. And I don't think Widow Mines need a nerf.
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On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably.
You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness.
lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ.
Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway.
edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw
20min mark, Life vs Last, no tank built, ling, bling muta. nerf tank? what?
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The amount of unjustified whining/crying is unbelievable. No one is saying that there couldn't be something wrong, but to call for the nerf bat immediately when most of the games yesterday were relatively close is just hilarious. This is exactly what ruined WoL in the first place, was the ungodly amount of crying over things that made no sense.
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On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably.
And yet all those zergs except for life and killer lost their ZvTs 0-3 or 0-1, including leenock, stephano, and ret.
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On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw
Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here.
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all that pain terra suffered the whole time of WOL, im enjoying the rage now :D
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Well, if everything is ok nothing to say lol. As a terran I still didn't find a response for the protoss 4 gate with mothership core, so yea it's a problem. For the ignite afterburners I think Blizzard should make it cost energy so that terrans don't overuse it.
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On March 18 2013 01:17 superstartran wrote: The amount of unjustified whining/crying is unbelievable. No one is saying that there couldn't be something wrong, but to call for the nerf bat immediately when most of the games yesterday were relatively close is just hilarious. This is exactly what ruined WoL in the first place, was the ungodly amount of crying over things that made no sense. Exactly! At least wait for a GSL to finish before starting to worry about this stuff. With how the MLG brackets were set up there was no way it was going to look remotely even. We had the best GSL players playing against foreigners, of course it was going to be one-sided.
The game hasn't even been out a week. Slow down a little with the balance stuff. People have to learn how to deal with mines. We saw Life do it by sending one unit ahead to trip the mines, why can't we?
I just don't want this to turn into WoL again.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 01:22 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. And yet all those zergs except for life and killer lost their ZvTs 0-3 or 0-1, including leenock, stephano, and ret.
Ret played vs God, he was obviously gonna lose, what, are you surprised? Leenock played vs Innovation, games were really close, but Innovation definitely outclassed Leenock's play if you watched the games. Don't even pretend those players are equal in caliber. Life won because he easily outclassed the players he faced, as was the case with Flash vs Ret. Leenock vs Innovation, games were awfully close, and game 1 was reaper rush, it doesn't even matter, it was a build order loss. Stephano vs Last, Last easily played better and knew what to do vs roach aggression, not to mention his mechanics are easily superior 3 base terran vs 3 base zerg, and he was up by 50 supply, lol. Last vs Killer, I really don't think anyone expected anything other than a 3:0 or 3:1 either.
And the point is, nerfing the tanks would not have mattered at all, as Flash and Innovation used mostly widow mines NOT tanks, so why nerf something that won't even remotely address the issue at all? Addressing widow mine blast radius, on the other hand, is very debatable.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here.
Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God.
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On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God.
Really, using a meme as proof of balance?
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 01:53 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God. Really, using a meme as proof of balance?
really? thinking ret even stands a chance vs Flash? What you smoking?
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A "better" player (Flash) wins vs a "worse" player (Ret) and you cry imba?! LOLZ
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This Kespa players are just way better then everyone else. Most people dont realize who these guys are. I mean its Flash, player who is considered best Starcraft player of all time. Of course he is that good. Terrans are owning MLG, but look at these players. There are best Korean Terrans vs foreigner Zergs, except for Leenock and Life, who is doing great so far. More time and more tournaments are needed to really talk about balance and not just whine.
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On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God.
I'm not the one attempting to make a point, that was you. I was simply pointing out that the example you used to prove your point (yesterday's ZvTs) all resulted in Zerg losses. So, why would I watch the ZvTs yesterday to understand how effective these busts are?
Feels like troll, I'll leave it alone.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 02:19 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God. I'm not the one attempting to make a point, that was you. I was simply pointing out that the example you used to prove your point (yesterday's ZvTs) all resulted in Zerg losses. So, why would I watch the ZvTs yesterday to understand how effective these busts are? Feels like troll, I'll leave it alone.
lol, my point is that whatever you think you pointed out was pointless and nerfing tanks wouldn't have changed a thing as they weren't used..instead, Widow Mines were. And I acknowledged that a potential widow mine nerf is definitely debatable, but the game hasn't even been out for a week, and you already cry imba.... Flash 3:0s Ret, and you cry imba? seriously? Pretty obvious you are the troll here.. /inb4 you should own Flash in TvZ, or Terran is imba..
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If anyone says balance issues based on foreigners losing to Korean terrans than terran deserves a buff since foreign terrans can't win vs koreans or fellow foreigners.
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On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God.
Also that Ultra transition pretty much killed Ret. Should have stuck with Hydra Viper and maybe added infestors or Banlings. Flash already had maruaders making Ultras is asking to be slapped silly by the Terran,
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On March 18 2013 00:15 Luolis wrote: Mech is so broken as fuck.
Im a terran.
Haha yeah that's why no pro players use mech. I wish mech was good :3
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Here's my issue with everyone recommending adding a mana cost to speed boost, in the late game this would actually work against P in my opinion. T's could use multiple speed boosts to lower the mana on a medivac to prevent feedback deaths which is THE most effective late game option to shut down drops. Obviously T's can mitigate this damage naturally by using newer medivacs, but I think it's gotta be more of a decision between using medivacs speed boost to get in to the enemy base OR to get out of the enemy base, not both. Needs a cooldown increase or a tech research or something...this MLG is brutal to watch PvT right now.
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On March 18 2013 01:58 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 01:53 haffy wrote:On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God. Really, using a meme as proof of balance? really? thinking ret even stands a chance vs Flash? What you smoking?
Yeah you're right. Flash. I mean whats e=? Flash. What is light. Flash. Flash AhahHAHAh, he's a miracle. King of the impossible. So as you can see from my well thought out post Terran is perfectly balanced.
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Well, korean terrans doesn't only beat foreign Zs and Ps also top koreans.
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i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race.
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Now let's watch Life's ass get kicked by Last's mass widowmines and then say Last is the better player...
WoL balance started out terran favoured and gave the first tourneys to terrans. HotS is on its way to do the same.
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them medivacs on crack lol, pretty imba indeed. widow mines are fine, other races just gotta start learning that they need to get detection before pushing.
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Honestly the argument that Terran is Hots is Balanced or imbalanced at this point is pretty dumb. Frankly it is impossible for anyone who honestly analyzes the games to really determine at this stage. I'll admit that the combination of widow mines and speed medivacs especially against zergs feels like a problem. However On the other side I am watching every zerg try the same tactics with little variation that has been shut down cold each time. So I certainly am not going to say it is imbalanced when there are a number of other viable strategies that just aren't getting leveraged. It however is certainly something that needs to be watched very close in the coming months.
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On March 18 2013 02:54 Da.Frozzy wrote: i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race.
I agree, but I think Medivac speed is the more important issue. It's just too strong for all sorts of reasons. Widow Mines are annoying to watch, but I think without Medivac speed they aren't as big of a problem.
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The actual state of T in HotS is almost boring to watch: every single game and MU is MMM only!!! This is how HotS bring diversity to the game? Its the same as in the beginning of WoL.I am Terran,but just tired of watching the same and the PvT is almost a joke.I think they must make the "thrusters" lategame upgrade,when T is really struggling in TvP.The early and mid was never an issue in TvP and we got the advantage,but now its not only slight advantage,its HUGE.No way for gate units to stop this and teching to Collosi or HTs is too expensive.
Blizzard need to make the "thrusters" maybe techlab research with armory or even fusion core as the medivac healing was in BETA. The TvZ is suffering the same.Its ok,because of the Ultra buff,but playing the same strategy every single game is SOOOOO boring!!! HotS has reduced the option for now and we are still losing the tank more and more.At least we can see the most iconic T unit in the TvT,but still not enough at least for me.Still no TvP mech possible,so I expect patch real soon
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On March 18 2013 02:24 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 02:19 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote: I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is: 1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1. 2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God. I'm not the one attempting to make a point, that was you. I was simply pointing out that the example you used to prove your point (yesterday's ZvTs) all resulted in Zerg losses. So, why would I watch the ZvTs yesterday to understand how effective these busts are? Feels like troll, I'll leave it alone. lol, my point is that whatever you think you pointed out was pointless and nerfing tanks wouldn't have changed a thing as they weren't used..instead, Widow Mines were. And I acknowledged that a potential widow mine nerf is definitely debatable, but the game hasn't even been out for a week, and you already cry imba.... Flash 3:0s Ret, and you cry imba? seriously? Pretty obvious you are the troll here.. /inb4 you should own Flash in TvZ, or Terran is imba..
You clearly lack reading comprehension. Read my previous posts then try again.
On the topic at hand, I'd still prefer that, if Blizzard sees an issue, they buff the other races rather than nerf the one that's seen as a problem. Let's add more strategy, not remove others.
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I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch
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On March 18 2013 02:56 Freeborn wrote: Now let's watch Life's ass get kicked by Last's mass widowmines and then say Last is the better player...
WoL balance started out terran favoured and gave the first tourneys to terrans. HotS is on its way to do the same. Just want to quote myself again...
... we have a race that got knocked out of most WoL tournaments back in November and December, with plenty of time to practice HotS, as well as a 95% Korean line-up showing up to MLG as Terran. It would be a travesty if Terran didn't look powerful right now. Life had 1 week with the beta, while Last has been working on it probably since December. Which do you think will do better?
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On March 18 2013 02:54 Da.Frozzy wrote: i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race. Widow mines not hitting air would make mech TvZ completely obsolete. Thors alone do not cut it against the improved mutalisk.
I don't know why I keep reading people suggesting nerfs to tanks, mines and hellbats. We see so little mech to begin with, how about you just nerf the damn medivac since everyone is going bio because of it.
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oracle - spawn with 0 energy or energy has to be upgraded
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 02:50 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 01:58 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:53 haffy wrote:On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote: [quote] Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend.
Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God. Really, using a meme as proof of balance? really? thinking ret even stands a chance vs Flash? What you smoking? Yeah you're right. Flash. I mean whats e=? Flash. What is light. Flash. Flash AhahHAHAh, he's a miracle. King of the impossible. So as you can see from my well thought out post Terran is perfectly balanced.
You have finally been enlightened. Flash 3:0 Ret is like 1+1 = 2, gravity, or air, it cannot be argued. If it was any other way, then Zerg would be imba.
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On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!"
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On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!"
Seriously. HAHAHA. Personally, I think if they do a nerf, it should be a control nerf. The important thing is that the medivacs can go in and out quickly; however, if this came with a loss to banking speed, it might be the appropriate trade-off. Preferable, too, to a tacked on upgrade cost and/or researchable upgrade OR cooldown/speed tweaks.
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On March 18 2013 02:50 haffy wrote: Yeah you're right. Flash. I mean whats e=? Flash. What is light. Flash. Flash AhahHAHAh, he's a miracle. King of the impossible. So as you can see from my well thought out post Terran is perfectly balanced.
I think according to their past performances there's no reasonable argument that a balance issue can be determined from Flash beating or even utterly destroying Ret.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!"
I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz
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Whatever changes they end up making, I think the most important thing is that they develop some sort of consistency.
The biggest problem I had with balancing in WoL was that it was completely unfair how they were doing it. For example, ghosts and hellions (indirectly) were nerfed very shortly after they were discovered to be so strong, yet infestor were left alone for the greater part of a year.
If they decide to nerf medivacs or mines, any future nerfs or buffs should be given the same amount of time that medivacs/mines were given unless if they completely break a matchup (which I don't think mines or medivacs are doing right now)
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On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz
Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez
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I think the current status of the Medivac is bad for one reason in particular, it again cements the sad fact that Terran as a race revolves around Marines, Marauders, Medivacs and at best one supplement unit and early game shenanigans with other units.
Why is the Medivac speed no upgrade and why is it the strongest addition to terran? Because Bio needed a big buff and was underrepresented in WoL? It doesn't make any sense, Bio gets all their upgrades shoved into them, available in the early and mid game without any additional costs or decisions to make. I really just don't get it, I generally like the changes they made with HotS apart from the Medivac (and maybe VR) change, but that change will just ruin the fun of watching the game in the long run if they don't change it immediately.
Just my opinion.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:02 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 02:24 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 02:19 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote: [quote] Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend.
Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God. I'm not the one attempting to make a point, that was you. I was simply pointing out that the example you used to prove your point (yesterday's ZvTs) all resulted in Zerg losses. So, why would I watch the ZvTs yesterday to understand how effective these busts are? Feels like troll, I'll leave it alone. lol, my point is that whatever you think you pointed out was pointless and nerfing tanks wouldn't have changed a thing as they weren't used..instead, Widow Mines were. And I acknowledged that a potential widow mine nerf is definitely debatable, but the game hasn't even been out for a week, and you already cry imba.... Flash 3:0s Ret, and you cry imba? seriously? Pretty obvious you are the troll here.. /inb4 you should own Flash in TvZ, or Terran is imba.. You clearly lack reading comprehension. Read my previous posts then try again. On the topic at hand, I'd still prefer that, if Blizzard sees an issue, they buff the other races rather than nerf the one that's seen as a problem. Let's add more strategy, not remove others.
1. you clearly lack logic.. worse players losing to obviously better players, is not an evidence of imba. And I am not sure if you watched game 2 of Last vs Life, no tanks again, but Life wrecked Last with ling. bling. muta. Imba? hardly.
2. Before you jumped into the conversation, I was making a point about MilesTeg suggesting a Tank nerf to address TvZ. My point being, tanks were not even used in TvZs yesterday or today, so a tank nerf is obviously not warranted. Inherently, It's like saying nerf BattleCruisers, which were not even used in the game at all. Nerf it sure, but it would not have changed a thing. On the other hand, like I mentioned earlier, if the discussion is about nerfing widow mines, sure, it is very debatable.
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On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez
the game's been out for a week. pros are always biased, you need lots of games, aka DATA to determine imbalance. but apparently 1 weekend of games is enough for everyone to call out for terran nerfs
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez
well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Who can rightfully say that he/she has already figured out the entire meta-game of HotS already? Nobody. Like WoL, the metgame has been shifting..etc., and nobody had it all figured out. So, no, the game was released on the 12th, give it time before you cry imba.
Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy, a Zerg pro mind you, acknowledged there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased.
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On March 18 2013 02:31 Zorgaz wrote:Haha yeah that's why no pro players use mech. I wish mech was good :3
'What i meant was especially in TvT. If you just hold on until 200/200 any kind of bio just melts.
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On March 18 2013 03:04 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 02:54 Da.Frozzy wrote: i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race. Widow mines not hitting air would make mech TvZ completely obsolete. Thors alone do not cut it against the improved mutalisk. I don't know why I keep reading people suggesting nerfs to tanks, mines and hellbats. We see so little mech to begin with, how about you just nerf the damn medivac since everyone is going bio because of it.
In a mech ball, why would Thor perform any worse in HOTS than WoL? The muta buffs were acceleration and regeneration out of combat.
That said, while from a gameplay perspective I feel like Terran has a ton of anti-air options so the Widow Mine being so good vs. air is unnecessary, nerfing the Widow Mine to not hit air would likely make it feel too similar to a tank their is already quite a bit of overlap in roles there)
If ZvT is deemed a problem here are some potential buffs worth considering (obviously you wouldn't do all of these, but maybe 1 or 2):
- Hydras start with +1 Range - +2 Cargo for Overlords once Ventral Sacs is researched - -20 second research time for Glial Reconstitution and Tunneling Claws - Pneumatized Carapace upgrade reduced to 75minerals/75gas
I'd love to be able to suggest a Swarm Host upgrade but they feel pretty good in ZvP right now. Possibly a movement speed buff?
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On March 18 2013 03:05 butterstulle wrote: oracle - spawn with 0 energy or energy has to be upgraded
Right because if the oracle has no energy its not like it can pick up units or anything to ferry them or save them from ling baneling or anything that doesn't hit air /facepalm
I'm not biased against terran but I think the speed boost should require energy or an upgrade, its just silly that they have the fastest moving(on a 12 second cool-down since the boost lasts 8 seconds and begins right when the ability activates), has healing, and is a dropship.....call me biased if you want, but what other non "spellcaster" unit has as much utility as a medivac?
Overlords can poop creep...whoopie do, warp prisms can act like pylons so we can warp in garbage gateway units hooray! Just seems silly to give this unit all that right out of the starport without any upgrade or energy cost.
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The major issue in this tourney imo is the instability of bnet no effin LAN at MLG Dallas. How many games were dropped already?? Parting seemed mighty pissed in the last game of the set vs Flash.
Or is it only to showcase the new feature that lets you start the game from where it dropped? we will not reach the levels of epic failure that MLG Colombus had a couple years back but still its very annoying.
For the medevacs, at some point zergs will spend some money on static defenses and the way MC has dealt with MVP shows that phoenixes can deny fast drops...
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On March 18 2013 03:23 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy acknowledge there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased.
There has been a beta, people knew what was potentially imba even before reliease. That was why so many hoped for a patch right as the game launched.
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On March 18 2013 03:20 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:02 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 02:24 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 02:19 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote: [quote]
The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build.
Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God. I'm not the one attempting to make a point, that was you. I was simply pointing out that the example you used to prove your point (yesterday's ZvTs) all resulted in Zerg losses. So, why would I watch the ZvTs yesterday to understand how effective these busts are? Feels like troll, I'll leave it alone. lol, my point is that whatever you think you pointed out was pointless and nerfing tanks wouldn't have changed a thing as they weren't used..instead, Widow Mines were. And I acknowledged that a potential widow mine nerf is definitely debatable, but the game hasn't even been out for a week, and you already cry imba.... Flash 3:0s Ret, and you cry imba? seriously? Pretty obvious you are the troll here.. /inb4 you should own Flash in TvZ, or Terran is imba.. You clearly lack reading comprehension. Read my previous posts then try again. On the topic at hand, I'd still prefer that, if Blizzard sees an issue, they buff the other races rather than nerf the one that's seen as a problem. Let's add more strategy, not remove others. 1. you clearly lack logic.. worse players losing to obviously better players, is not an evidence of imba. And I am not sure if you watched game 2 of Last vs Life, no tanks again, but Life wrecked Last with ling. bling. muta. Imba? hardly. 2. Before you jumped into the conversation, I was making a point about MilesTeg suggesting a Tank nerf to address TvZ. My point being, tanks were not even used in TvZs yesterday or today, so a tank nerf is obviously not warranted. Inherently, It's like saying nerf BattleCruisers, which were not even used in the game at all. Nerf it sure, but it would not have changed a thing. On the other hand, like I mentioned earlier, if the discussion is about nerfing widow mines, sure, it is very debatable.
Find one post where I cried imba or said anything about tanks. Once again, reading comprehension...
The discussion WAS you saying Zerg aggression was possible by using yesterdays ZvTs as evidence to support that (Flash vs. Ret, Leenock vs. Innovation) where Zergs went 0-6. In no way did I suggest the Zergs were better players, however you seemed to think those were good examples to support your point that Zergs should use aggressive play.
To add something on topic: Life's splits against these Widow Mines is pretty damn awesome to watch, has to do it blindly but seems to always know where they'll be.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:30 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:23 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy acknowledge there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased. There has been a beta, people knew what was potentially imba even before reliease. That was why so many hoped for a patch right as the game launched.
so, that still doesn't answer my counter-argument. Which pros besides parting said imba? Like I said, Suppy, a zerg pro, said there was no imba, it was just that zerg timings haven't been figured out to adapt to the new units. So, is Suppy wrong?
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:31 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:20 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:02 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 02:24 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 02:19 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote: [quote]
I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God. I'm not the one attempting to make a point, that was you. I was simply pointing out that the example you used to prove your point (yesterday's ZvTs) all resulted in Zerg losses. So, why would I watch the ZvTs yesterday to understand how effective these busts are? Feels like troll, I'll leave it alone. lol, my point is that whatever you think you pointed out was pointless and nerfing tanks wouldn't have changed a thing as they weren't used..instead, Widow Mines were. And I acknowledged that a potential widow mine nerf is definitely debatable, but the game hasn't even been out for a week, and you already cry imba.... Flash 3:0s Ret, and you cry imba? seriously? Pretty obvious you are the troll here.. /inb4 you should own Flash in TvZ, or Terran is imba.. You clearly lack reading comprehension. Read my previous posts then try again. On the topic at hand, I'd still prefer that, if Blizzard sees an issue, they buff the other races rather than nerf the one that's seen as a problem. Let's add more strategy, not remove others. 1. you clearly lack logic.. worse players losing to obviously better players, is not an evidence of imba. And I am not sure if you watched game 2 of Last vs Life, no tanks again, but Life wrecked Last with ling. bling. muta. Imba? hardly. 2. Before you jumped into the conversation, I was making a point about MilesTeg suggesting a Tank nerf to address TvZ. My point being, tanks were not even used in TvZs yesterday or today, so a tank nerf is obviously not warranted. Inherently, It's like saying nerf BattleCruisers, which were not even used in the game at all. Nerf it sure, but it would not have changed a thing. On the other hand, like I mentioned earlier, if the discussion is about nerfing widow mines, sure, it is very debatable. Find one post where I cried imba or said anything about tanks. Once again, reading comprehension... The discussion WAS you saying Zerg aggression was possible by using yesterdays ZvTs as evidence to support that (Flash vs. Ret, Leenock vs. Innovation) where Zergs went 0-6. In no way did I suggest the Zergs were better players, however you seemed to think those were good examples to support your point that Zergs should use aggressive play. To add something on topic: Life's splits against these Widow Mines is pretty damn awesome to watch, has to do it blindly but seems to always know where they'll be.
.......reading comprehension.. Like I mentioned in the previous post, I was addressing MilesTeg.. And yes, Zerg aggression was possible, and them losing, like you suggested, doesn't mean it didn't work.... Not to mention I never said Zergs SHOULD* use aggressive play, like you just accused. I never said that at all. I merely said it was still feasible, pros have been using it, and nerfing tanks wouldn't have solved a thing since nobody even used a tank opening. reading comprehension? Good try. Now, addressing your flawed logic.. You could have successful early harass and still lose, as evident in Rain vs Innovation game 3.
Further, you saying Zerg went 0-6 meant nothing, because like I said, Flash vs Ret. Who in their right mind would say Ret would win? Yes, you never suggested the Zergs were better players, and I never said you suggested the Zergs were better players, reading comprehension? BUT you hinted it was not feasible because zerg lost all those games, why else would you suggest that then? I suggesting Flash is easily the better player and that ret losing to Flash is in no way an evidence or support of your argument shut down your argument completely.
To sum it up, successful early aggression does not mean you auto-win, unsuccessful early harass doesn't mean you can't win, and that's StarCraft 2 for you.
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Well.some posts ago I wrote about the medivacs almost imba,but after watching Bomber-MC and Life-Last I changed my opinion. There is a way to control this and players like MC have already figured it out. Stargate opening Oracle+Phoenix is the way to deny Ts widow mines drops and Mid game Medivacs aggressions. Life is focusing hard on lings to be send in the battlefield sacrificing to spot the mines and keep it on the bling-muta into ultras style to counter the MMM soo mobile stuff.I suppose players like Parting and Rain havent had the time to practice enough because of their latest WoL matches.
Still the game of T POV is boring to play as it seems BIO is the way to play all the Terran MUs...So sad.I expect the Widow Mine splash damage nerf,so tanks once again will be usefull.
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On March 18 2013 03:33 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:30 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:23 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy acknowledge there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased. There has been a beta, people knew what was potentially imba even before reliease. That was why so many hoped for a patch right as the game launched. so, that still doesn't answer my counter-argument. Which pros besides parting said imba? Like I said, Suppy, a zerg pro, said there was no imba, it was just that zerg timings haven't been figured out to adapt to the new units. So, is Suppy wrong?
Well, MC for one, saying PvT is fine but ZvT is terran favored. http://www.gamespot.com/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm/videos/mc-thinks-he-can-be-champion-after-win-against-mvp-mlg-dallas-6405465/
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:42 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:33 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:30 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:23 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy acknowledge there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased. There has been a beta, people knew what was potentially imba even before reliease. That was why so many hoped for a patch right as the game launched. so, that still doesn't answer my counter-argument. Which pros besides parting said imba? Like I said, Suppy, a zerg pro, said there was no imba, it was just that zerg timings haven't been figured out to adapt to the new units. So, is Suppy wrong? Well, MC for one, saying PvT is fine but ZvT is terran favored. http://www.gamespot.com/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm/videos/mc-thinks-he-can-be-champion-after-win-against-mvp-mlg-dallas-6405465/
So MC says P is balanced all around, but ZvT is T favored, and Stephano said Protoss was OP in ZvP, Stephano said he knows exactly what's coming, but he could not do anything about it.. so, is MC right that voidray is fine or is Stephano right saying protoss is OP? And is Suppy, the zerg pro wrong to say that there's no imba in ZvT, but people haven't figured out the timings? So is MC right, or is Stephano or Suppy right?
what I think - MC obviously says P is perfectly fine, hell, he plays protoss lol
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On March 18 2013 03:50 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:42 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:33 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:30 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:23 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy acknowledge there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased. There has been a beta, people knew what was potentially imba even before reliease. That was why so many hoped for a patch right as the game launched. so, that still doesn't answer my counter-argument. Which pros besides parting said imba? Like I said, Suppy, a zerg pro, said there was no imba, it was just that zerg timings haven't been figured out to adapt to the new units. So, is Suppy wrong? Well, MC for one, saying PvT is fine but ZvT is terran favored. http://www.gamespot.com/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm/videos/mc-thinks-he-can-be-champion-after-win-against-mvp-mlg-dallas-6405465/ So MC says P is balanced all around, but ZvT is T favored, and Stephano said Protoss was OP in ZvP, Stephano said he knows exactly what's coming, but he could not do anything about it.. so, is MC right that voidray is fine or is Stephano right saying protoss is OP? And is Suppy, the zerg pro wrong to say that there's no imba in ZvT, but people haven't figured out the timings? So is MC right, or is Stephano or Suppy right? what I think - MC obviously says P is perfectly fine, hell, he plays protoss lol
Hell, you play Terran, thus you defend the race. You will feel stupied when you nerf will come. just saying.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:54 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:50 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:42 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:33 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:30 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:23 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy acknowledge there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased. There has been a beta, people knew what was potentially imba even before reliease. That was why so many hoped for a patch right as the game launched. so, that still doesn't answer my counter-argument. Which pros besides parting said imba? Like I said, Suppy, a zerg pro, said there was no imba, it was just that zerg timings haven't been figured out to adapt to the new units. So, is Suppy wrong? Well, MC for one, saying PvT is fine but ZvT is terran favored. http://www.gamespot.com/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm/videos/mc-thinks-he-can-be-champion-after-win-against-mvp-mlg-dallas-6405465/ So MC says P is balanced all around, but ZvT is T favored, and Stephano said Protoss was OP in ZvP, Stephano said he knows exactly what's coming, but he could not do anything about it.. so, is MC right that voidray is fine or is Stephano right saying protoss is OP? And is Suppy, the zerg pro wrong to say that there's no imba in ZvT, but people haven't figured out the timings? So is MC right, or is Stephano or Suppy right? what I think - MC obviously says P is perfectly fine, hell, he plays protoss lol Hell, you play Terran, thus you defend the race. You will feel stupied when you nerf will come. just saying.
Nice question dodging. So who's right? MC saying Protoss is perfectly balanced, Parting saying TvP is imba, Stephano saying ZvP is imba, or Suppy saying TvZ is fine?
How about try and hold your QQs and let the meta develop for a little. Frankly, I don't think that's too much to ask. ....and I am pretty sure you should be the one feeling stupid, for you spelled stupid wrong.....
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On March 18 2013 02:59 Dekoth wrote: Honestly the argument that Terran is Hots is Balanced or imbalanced at this point is pretty dumb. Frankly it is impossible for anyone who honestly analyzes the games to really determine at this stage. I'll admit that the combination of widow mines and speed medivacs especially against zergs feels like a problem. However On the other side I am watching every zerg try the same tactics with little variation that has been shut down cold each time. So I certainly am not going to say it is imbalanced when there are a number of other viable strategies that just aren't getting leveraged. It however is certainly something that needs to be watched very close in the coming months.
It's not just that, the way the races were designed Terran is always going to have an advantage in the early to mid game due to the fact that Blizzard designed them to be an aggressive multi prong attacking race. Terran has alot of options early to mid game, but tapers off late game unless you can really control your units well. Zerg still holds a distinct advantage late game with Ultra/Vipers/Corrupters/Blords/Infestors, yet no one is bitching about getting slowly picked off into oblivion by Vipers, yet you have all these Zerg players here bitching that they for once cannot take blind thirds and build 6 lings / 5 queens to be safe.
The game is DIFFERENT now. Of course Zerg is going to 'appear' weaker. That's because alot of the timings and unit compositions are new, and Terran has the most stable unit composition out of all three races. They only added widow mines and medivac speed bosts, that's it. So yes they are going to look the best right now because they were affected least by the changes from HotS. Z and P have significant changes, with Z getting the most dynamic changes due to Infestor changes, Hydra changes, Ultra changes, etc. that all significantly overhaul the way Z is played in HotS.
In 3-5 months down the road if Terran is still completely dominating then yes, changes should be made. However the knee jerk reactions of WoL completely ruined the game, and if you bitch hard enough Blizzard will be stupid enough to listen to you. Just look at some of the nonsense that occured in WoL, everything ranging from knee jerk buffs/nerfs to things like Ghosts, Infestors, Bunkers, Warpgate timings, Voidrays, etc. etc.
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On March 18 2013 03:26 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:04 Bagi wrote:On March 18 2013 02:54 Da.Frozzy wrote: i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race. Widow mines not hitting air would make mech TvZ completely obsolete. Thors alone do not cut it against the improved mutalisk. I don't know why I keep reading people suggesting nerfs to tanks, mines and hellbats. We see so little mech to begin with, how about you just nerf the damn medivac since everyone is going bio because of it. In a mech ball, why would Thor perform any worse in HOTS than WoL? The muta buffs were acceleration and regeneration out of combat. Why do you assume insane harassing buffs do not matter against the slowest army in the game?
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:26 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:04 Bagi wrote:On March 18 2013 02:54 Da.Frozzy wrote: i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race. Widow mines not hitting air would make mech TvZ completely obsolete. Thors alone do not cut it against the improved mutalisk. I don't know why I keep reading people suggesting nerfs to tanks, mines and hellbats. We see so little mech to begin with, how about you just nerf the damn medivac since everyone is going bio because of it. In a mech ball, why would Thor perform any worse in HOTS than WoL? The muta buffs were acceleration and regeneration out of combat.
Wrong, mutas had a speed buff to 4.0, regen got tripled, and acceleration did not change.... Faster speed and 3x regen = you can do a lot more hit and runs and take less damage, while 3x regen means mutas recover quicker and can do more hit and runs. And that directly means Thors perform worse in HotS vs mutas. Reading comprehension? Logic? Nice try..
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On March 18 2013 04:01 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 03:04 Bagi wrote:On March 18 2013 02:54 Da.Frozzy wrote: i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race. Widow mines not hitting air would make mech TvZ completely obsolete. Thors alone do not cut it against the improved mutalisk. I don't know why I keep reading people suggesting nerfs to tanks, mines and hellbats. We see so little mech to begin with, how about you just nerf the damn medivac since everyone is going bio because of it. In a mech ball, why would Thor perform any worse in HOTS than WoL? The muta buffs were acceleration and regeneration out of combat. Why do you assume insane harassing buffs do not matter against the slowest army in the game?
I never said the ability to harass didn't matter, I said, in a straight up engagement, Mutas vs. Thors should be the same as in WoL. You claimed Thors alone don't cut it against Mutalisks, which may be true, but that should be no different than WoL.
If Widow Mines didn't attack air you could just make extra turrets to make up for the immobility of your army against Mutalisks for example. While I don't know if nerfing Widow Mines vs air is the right call, to say that removing Widow Mine's ability to attack air would make mech obsolete seems incorrect.
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On March 18 2013 04:41 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 04:01 Bagi wrote:On March 18 2013 03:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 03:04 Bagi wrote:On March 18 2013 02:54 Da.Frozzy wrote: i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race. Widow mines not hitting air would make mech TvZ completely obsolete. Thors alone do not cut it against the improved mutalisk. I don't know why I keep reading people suggesting nerfs to tanks, mines and hellbats. We see so little mech to begin with, how about you just nerf the damn medivac since everyone is going bio because of it. In a mech ball, why would Thor perform any worse in HOTS than WoL? The muta buffs were acceleration and regeneration out of combat. Why do you assume insane harassing buffs do not matter against the slowest army in the game? I never said the ability to harass didn't matter, I said, in a straight up engagement, Mutas vs. Thors should be the same as in WoL. You claimed Thors alone don't cut it against Mutalisks, which may be true, but that should be no different than WoL. If Widow Mines didn't attack air you could just make extra turrets to make up for the immobility of your army against Mutalisks for example. While I don't know if nerfing Widow Mines vs air is the right call, to say that removing Widow Mine's ability to attack air would make mech obsolete seems incorrect. Thors alone dont cut it against the new muta harass. There. Did I really need to spell it out for you?
The new mutas shit on turrets and can run away from thors all day long. Any single thor volleys taken (which in WOL were a big deal) are quickly healed. The muta buffs were a DIRECT response to the mine, how can you not understand that removing the mine from that equation will be problematic?
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On March 18 2013 04:41 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 04:01 Bagi wrote:On March 18 2013 03:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 03:04 Bagi wrote:On March 18 2013 02:54 Da.Frozzy wrote: i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race. Widow mines not hitting air would make mech TvZ completely obsolete. Thors alone do not cut it against the improved mutalisk. I don't know why I keep reading people suggesting nerfs to tanks, mines and hellbats. We see so little mech to begin with, how about you just nerf the damn medivac since everyone is going bio because of it. In a mech ball, why would Thor perform any worse in HOTS than WoL? The muta buffs were acceleration and regeneration out of combat. Why do you assume insane harassing buffs do not matter against the slowest army in the game? I never said the ability to harass didn't matter, I said, in a straight up engagement, Mutas vs. Thors should be the same as in WoL. You claimed Thors alone don't cut it against Mutalisks, which may be true, but that should be no different than WoL. If Widow Mines didn't attack air you could just make extra turrets to make up for the immobility of your army against Mutalisks for example. While I don't know if nerfing Widow Mines vs air is the right call, to say that removing Widow Mine's ability to attack air would make mech obsolete seems incorrect.
nerfing widow mine against air would make toss early stargate play super op. and not only that.
hots is new "the other protoss and zerg play wings of liberty and thats why they lose, i play hots and thats why i win" -MC thats what mc said. players dont know how to play hots yet and thats why they have problems to deal with widow mines. give it some time. people will find counter builds and counter strategies.
i agree the medivac speedboost is a bit strong now. but other than that, terran is fine. and everyone who says something else clearly doesnt understand the game.
u have to look at the bigger picture my son.
and some people here dont talk about opinions, they talk about facts!
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On March 18 2013 04:46 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 04:41 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 04:01 Bagi wrote:On March 18 2013 03:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 03:04 Bagi wrote:On March 18 2013 02:54 Da.Frozzy wrote: i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race. Widow mines not hitting air would make mech TvZ completely obsolete. Thors alone do not cut it against the improved mutalisk. I don't know why I keep reading people suggesting nerfs to tanks, mines and hellbats. We see so little mech to begin with, how about you just nerf the damn medivac since everyone is going bio because of it. In a mech ball, why would Thor perform any worse in HOTS than WoL? The muta buffs were acceleration and regeneration out of combat. Why do you assume insane harassing buffs do not matter against the slowest army in the game? I never said the ability to harass didn't matter, I said, in a straight up engagement, Mutas vs. Thors should be the same as in WoL. You claimed Thors alone don't cut it against Mutalisks, which may be true, but that should be no different than WoL. If Widow Mines didn't attack air you could just make extra turrets to make up for the immobility of your army against Mutalisks for example. While I don't know if nerfing Widow Mines vs air is the right call, to say that removing Widow Mine's ability to attack air would make mech obsolete seems incorrect. Thors alone dont cut it against the new muta harass. There. Did I really need to spell it out for you?The new mutas shit on turrets and can run away from thors all day long. Any single thor volleys taken (which in WOL were a big deal) are quickly healed. The muta buffs were a DIRECT response to the mine, how can you not understand that removing the mine from that equation will be problematic?
If that was the point you were trying to make then sure, make that point.
Agreed that new Mutas chew through Turrets no problem. I missed the part where Muta buffs were in response to Widow Mines, my assumption was that speed for Mutas was increased as a response to Emergency Thrusters and that regeneration was an attempt to promote more harass-centric play.
Anyways, it's a useless discussion as I agree that removing Widow Mines ability to attack air is the wrong solution, although we have different opinions on why that is.
edit: fixed typo
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On March 18 2013 03:54 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:50 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:42 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:33 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:30 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:23 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote: I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before. It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy acknowledge there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased. There has been a beta, people knew what was potentially imba even before reliease. That was why so many hoped for a patch right as the game launched. so, that still doesn't answer my counter-argument. Which pros besides parting said imba? Like I said, Suppy, a zerg pro, said there was no imba, it was just that zerg timings haven't been figured out to adapt to the new units. So, is Suppy wrong? Well, MC for one, saying PvT is fine but ZvT is terran favored. http://www.gamespot.com/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm/videos/mc-thinks-he-can-be-champion-after-win-against-mvp-mlg-dallas-6405465/ So MC says P is balanced all around, but ZvT is T favored, and Stephano said Protoss was OP in ZvP, Stephano said he knows exactly what's coming, but he could not do anything about it.. so, is MC right that voidray is fine or is Stephano right saying protoss is OP? And is Suppy, the zerg pro wrong to say that there's no imba in ZvT, but people haven't figured out the timings? So is MC right, or is Stephano or Suppy right? what I think - MC obviously says P is perfectly fine, hell, he plays protoss lol Hell, you play Terran, thus you defend the race. You will feel stupied when you nerf will come. just saying.
A nerf? Why? Because KOREAN terrans destroyed FOREIGNERS? Look at korean vs korean, and you will see pure balance.
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On March 18 2013 05:54 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:54 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:50 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:42 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:33 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:30 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:23 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote: [quote] "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy acknowledge there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased. There has been a beta, people knew what was potentially imba even before reliease. That was why so many hoped for a patch right as the game launched. so, that still doesn't answer my counter-argument. Which pros besides parting said imba? Like I said, Suppy, a zerg pro, said there was no imba, it was just that zerg timings haven't been figured out to adapt to the new units. So, is Suppy wrong? Well, MC for one, saying PvT is fine but ZvT is terran favored. http://www.gamespot.com/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm/videos/mc-thinks-he-can-be-champion-after-win-against-mvp-mlg-dallas-6405465/ So MC says P is balanced all around, but ZvT is T favored, and Stephano said Protoss was OP in ZvP, Stephano said he knows exactly what's coming, but he could not do anything about it.. so, is MC right that voidray is fine or is Stephano right saying protoss is OP? And is Suppy, the zerg pro wrong to say that there's no imba in ZvT, but people haven't figured out the timings? So is MC right, or is Stephano or Suppy right? what I think - MC obviously says P is perfectly fine, hell, he plays protoss lol Hell, you play Terran, thus you defend the race. You will feel stupied when you nerf will come. just saying. A nerf? Why? Because KOREAN terrans destroyed FOREIGNERS? Look at korean vs korean, and you will see pure balance.
Yeah EXACTLY. Watch Korean vs Korean games and tell me the game isn't balanced?! 1 Protoss, 1 Zerg and 2 Terrans. Seems perfect to me.
So psyched for next GSL :D
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On March 18 2013 05:54 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:54 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:50 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:42 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:33 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:30 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:23 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote: [quote] "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy acknowledge there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased. There has been a beta, people knew what was potentially imba even before reliease. That was why so many hoped for a patch right as the game launched. so, that still doesn't answer my counter-argument. Which pros besides parting said imba? Like I said, Suppy, a zerg pro, said there was no imba, it was just that zerg timings haven't been figured out to adapt to the new units. So, is Suppy wrong? Well, MC for one, saying PvT is fine but ZvT is terran favored. http://www.gamespot.com/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm/videos/mc-thinks-he-can-be-champion-after-win-against-mvp-mlg-dallas-6405465/ So MC says P is balanced all around, but ZvT is T favored, and Stephano said Protoss was OP in ZvP, Stephano said he knows exactly what's coming, but he could not do anything about it.. so, is MC right that voidray is fine or is Stephano right saying protoss is OP? And is Suppy, the zerg pro wrong to say that there's no imba in ZvT, but people haven't figured out the timings? So is MC right, or is Stephano or Suppy right? what I think - MC obviously says P is perfectly fine, hell, he plays protoss lol Hell, you play Terran, thus you defend the race. You will feel stupied when you nerf will come. just saying. A nerf? Why? Because KOREAN terrans destroyed FOREIGNERS? Look at korean vs korean, and you will see pure balance.
Yes this whole tournament is kind of bad representation of balance. If anything, the fact that Life is in the finals shows that an actual skilled zerg can do fine when facing several of the best Terrans in SC2.
On top of that so much of the game is still getting figured out. MC showed how to stop drops, Life actually used infestors which every zerg seems to be scared of making now. I don't understand why zergs who go roach hydra blindly go vipers even when there are no tanks. Fungal is much better than cloud against a bio/widow mine army with no tanks, it doesn't take much to figure that out but players have to start doing it. And fungal does a better job of stopping drops as well. It's things like this that I wish would be thought of more before balance whining immediately.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 07:14 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 05:54 Snowbear wrote:On March 18 2013 03:54 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:50 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:42 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:33 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:30 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:23 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote: [quote]
I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy acknowledge there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased. There has been a beta, people knew what was potentially imba even before reliease. That was why so many hoped for a patch right as the game launched. so, that still doesn't answer my counter-argument. Which pros besides parting said imba? Like I said, Suppy, a zerg pro, said there was no imba, it was just that zerg timings haven't been figured out to adapt to the new units. So, is Suppy wrong? Well, MC for one, saying PvT is fine but ZvT is terran favored. http://www.gamespot.com/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm/videos/mc-thinks-he-can-be-champion-after-win-against-mvp-mlg-dallas-6405465/ So MC says P is balanced all around, but ZvT is T favored, and Stephano said Protoss was OP in ZvP, Stephano said he knows exactly what's coming, but he could not do anything about it.. so, is MC right that voidray is fine or is Stephano right saying protoss is OP? And is Suppy, the zerg pro wrong to say that there's no imba in ZvT, but people haven't figured out the timings? So is MC right, or is Stephano or Suppy right? what I think - MC obviously says P is perfectly fine, hell, he plays protoss lol Hell, you play Terran, thus you defend the race. You will feel stupied when you nerf will come. just saying. A nerf? Why? Because KOREAN terrans destroyed FOREIGNERS? Look at korean vs korean, and you will see pure balance. Yes this whole tournament is kind of bad representation of balance. If anything, the fact that Life is in the finals shows that an actual skilled zerg can do fine when facing several of the best Terrans in SC2. On top of that so much of the game is still getting figured out. MC showed how to stop drops, Life actually used infestors which every zerg seems to be scared of making now. I don't understand why zergs who go roach hydra blindly go vipers even when there are no tanks. Fungal is much better than cloud against a bio/widow mine army with no tanks, it doesn't take much to figure that out but players have to start doing it. And fungal does a better job of stopping drops as well. It's things like this that I wish would be thought of more before balance whining immediately.
I agree to a certain extent, but did you see the Ret vs Flash series? Ret used the vipers quite effectively and abducted the boosted medivacs back to his hydra army. That was pretty incredible!
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Let's take a look at MLG's terrans: - Polt: kills creator (upset?), dies vs life (korean) - Last: kills stephano (foreigner), kills killer (foreigner), dies vs life (korean) - Mvp: kills feast (foreigner), dies to mc (korean) - Taeja: kills sase (foreigner), dies to bomber (terran) - Bomber: kills goswser (foreigner), kills taeja (terran), dies to mc (korean) - Flash aka GOD: kills bly (foreigner), kills ret (foreigner), kills parting (upset?), kills innovation (terran) - MKP: dies to jakji (korean) - Jakji: kills MKP (terran), dies to rain (korean) - Innovation: kills huk (foreigner), kills leenock (upset?), kills rain (upset?), dies to flash (terran)
So basicly, you guys say terran is OP, based on: - Polt killing creator - flash killing parting - innovation killing leenock & rain
What about flash & innovation being gods and deserving their wins? Then there is left: polt vs creator. Let's nerf terran based on that bo3?!
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Khaydarin Amulet being reintroduced would be interesting, I think. Considering how much aggression is going on and how Protoss is largely energy based for that tech path, it may be worth a try. I do not think Blizzard would even consider it, though.
However, I would prefer Blizzard leave the game alone and allow players to balance the game themselves for a while.
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I hope blizzard wont patch anything for the next 2 months,
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On March 18 2013 08:19 j4vz wrote: I hope blizzard wont patch anything for the next 2 months,
+1
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It's true that we see the player with the better mechanics succeed more so now than in WoL, however Terrans seems to dominate for good reasons. They have more things they can abuse with an insane amount of apm, compared to a skilled Zerg or a skilled Protoss.
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Hello y'all I have here a WONDERFULL suggestion for medivac speed:
1, turn it into a fusion core research, effectively making it a late game spell
2, OR, remove the flipping medivac energy upgrade at Starport tech lab and replace it with medivac speed upgrade. Forces you to have medivac speed later, thus negating much of the early game unstoppable medivac harass. It also limits the number of early game medivacs by forcing you to make a tech lab, BUT effectively preserving speed medivac play later on in the game. EH EH??
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no changes for another 3 months
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half these people needa go watch some life games
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On March 18 2013 08:51 FrogsAreDogs wrote: Hello y'all I have here a WONDERFULL suggestion for medivac speed:
1, turn it into a fusion core research, effectively making it a late game spell
2, OR, remove the flipping medivac energy upgrade at Starport tech lab and replace it with medivac speed upgrade. Forces you to have medivac speed later, thus negating much of the early game unstoppable medivac harass. It also limits the number of early game medivacs by forcing you to make a tech lab, BUT effectively preserving speed medivac play later on in the game. EH EH??
Unstoppable?
Or you know... just adapt.
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I still haven't seen much Swarm Host usage at the pro level yet. It seems dropping anywhere the SH aren't will win you the game 100% of the time.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 08:53 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 08:51 FrogsAreDogs wrote: Hello y'all I have here a WONDERFULL suggestion for medivac speed:
1, turn it into a fusion core research, effectively making it a late game spell
2, OR, remove the flipping medivac energy upgrade at Starport tech lab and replace it with medivac speed upgrade. Forces you to have medivac speed later, thus negating much of the early game unstoppable medivac harass. It also limits the number of early game medivacs by forcing you to make a tech lab, BUT effectively preserving speed medivac play later on in the game. EH EH?? Unstoppable? Or you know... just adapt.
pffft Dude, that makes too much sense, adapting is for Life, nobody else needs to adapt!
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On March 18 2013 08:51 FrogsAreDogs wrote: Hello y'all I have here a WONDERFULL suggestion for medivac speed:
1, turn it into a fusion core research, effectively making it a late game spell
2, OR, remove the flipping medivac energy upgrade at Starport tech lab and replace it with medivac speed upgrade. Forces you to have medivac speed later, thus negating much of the early game unstoppable medivac harass. It also limits the number of early game medivacs by forcing you to make a tech lab, BUT effectively preserving speed medivac play later on in the game. EH EH??
Lets wait at least one month before doing anything at all. If things are not balanced after 1-2 months then maybe.
I think making it a techlab upgrade and revert the hellbat cargo nerf would be a good idea.
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On March 18 2013 08:51 FrogsAreDogs wrote: Hello y'all I have here a WONDERFULL suggestion for medivac speed:
1, turn it into a fusion core research, effectively making it a late game spell
2, OR, remove the flipping medivac energy upgrade at Starport tech lab and replace it with medivac speed upgrade. Forces you to have medivac speed later, thus negating much of the early game unstoppable medivac harass. It also limits the number of early game medivacs by forcing you to make a tech lab, BUT effectively preserving speed medivac play later on in the game. EH EH??
Just make it so medivacs control differently when they are boosted and don't turn on a dime. That gives the prepared player the ability to punish poor control, rather than just time nerfing the unit until the end game. Or give phoenixes the ability to slow them with the gravton beam. Or move vipers down to lair tech and make the cloud research-able, so zerg can yank them back.
But yeah, don't nerf them directly. They are to awesome to nerf.
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On March 18 2013 08:13 Snowbear wrote: Let's take a look at MLG's terrans: - Polt: kills creator (upset?), dies vs life (korean) - Last: kills stephano (foreigner), kills killer (foreigner), dies vs life (korean) - Mvp: kills feast (foreigner), dies to mc (korean) - Taeja: kills sase (foreigner), dies to bomber (terran) - Bomber: kills goswser (foreigner), kills taeja (terran), dies to mc (korean) - Flash aka GOD: kills bly (foreigner), kills ret (foreigner), kills parting (upset?), kills innovation (terran) - MKP: dies to jakji (korean) - Jakji: kills MKP (terran), dies to rain (korean) - Innovation: kills huk (foreigner), kills leenock (upset?), kills rain (upset?), dies to flash (terran)
So basicly, you guys say terran is OP, based on: - Polt killing creator - flash killing parting - innovation killing leenock & rain
What about flash & innovation being gods and deserving their wins? Then there is left: polt vs creator. Let's nerf terran based on that bo3?!
No offence, but you are implying that the MLG-games are the only HotS-games that have been played. In addition to the one bo3 (which was actually a bo5) you seem to think is what everyone is basing all of their complaints on, we also have IEM and the MLG showdown qualifiers to look at, and in those, Terran victories have been overrepresented.
Also, your assessment of the MLG-games is very one-dimensional. First off, the foreigners you imply should reasonably always lose to Koreans include players who have a good record vs Korean players (Stephano has a 5-4 record in Proleague in WoL, etc). Secondly, you are not looking at map score or the actual play in the games at all, only bo5-wins or losses.
Is it reasonable that someone like Stephano loses to a Kespa-Terran? Well, sure. Is it reasonable that he loses 0-3 while looking completely helpless? Maybe, but it's at least worth taking into consideration who he is and how he lost, and not just "he's a foreigner facing a Korean, of course he lost".
I'm not saying Terran is super-OP and needs to be nerfed into the ground, but there's definitely more to consider than one bo3. I also feel like this "wait and see"-attitude is a bit misguided. It's a sensible idea when the game seems balanced, but can't we at least make sure to start with an even playing field before letting things evolve naturally? When there's an apparent (and seemingly statistically supported) imbalance, wouldn't it make more sense to sort that out and then let the pro's figure everything out for themselves?
I'm Terran myself, btw. Just figured that it would be good to mention.
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On March 18 2013 09:52 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 08:13 Snowbear wrote: Let's take a look at MLG's terrans: - Polt: kills creator (upset?), dies vs life (korean) - Last: kills stephano (foreigner), kills killer (foreigner), dies vs life (korean) - Mvp: kills feast (foreigner), dies to mc (korean) - Taeja: kills sase (foreigner), dies to bomber (terran) - Bomber: kills goswser (foreigner), kills taeja (terran), dies to mc (korean) - Flash aka GOD: kills bly (foreigner), kills ret (foreigner), kills parting (upset?), kills innovation (terran) - MKP: dies to jakji (korean) - Jakji: kills MKP (terran), dies to rain (korean) - Innovation: kills huk (foreigner), kills leenock (upset?), kills rain (upset?), dies to flash (terran)
So basicly, you guys say terran is OP, based on: - Polt killing creator - flash killing parting - innovation killing leenock & rain
What about flash & innovation being gods and deserving their wins? Then there is left: polt vs creator. Let's nerf terran based on that bo3?! No offence, but you are implying that the MLG-games are the only HotS-games that have been played. In addition to the one bo3 (which was actually a bo5) you seem to think is what everyone is basing all of their complaints on, we also have IEM and the MLG showdown qualifiers to look at, and in those, Terran victories have been overrepresented. Also, your assessment of the MLG-games is very one-dimensional. First off, the foreigners you imply should reasonably always lose to Koreans include players who have a good record vs Korean players (Stephano has a 5-4 record in Proleague in WoL, etc). Secondly, you are not looking at map score or the actual play in the games at all, only bo5-wins or losses. Is it reasonable that someone like Stephano loses to a Kespa-Terran? Well, sure. Is it reasonable that he loses 0-3 while looking completely helpless? Maybe, but it's at least worth taking into consideration who he is and how he lost, and not just "he's a foreigner facing a Korean, of course he lost". I'm not saying Terran is super-OP and needs to be nerfed into the ground, but there's definitely more to consider than one bo3. I also feel like this "wait and see"-attitude is a bit misguided. It's a sensible idea when the game seems balanced, but can't we at least make sure to start with an even playing field before letting things evolve naturally? When there's an apparent (and seemingly statistically supported) imbalance, wouldn't it make more sense to sort that out and then let the pro's figure everything out for themselves? I'm Terran myself, btw. Just figured that it would be good to mention.
1) IEM and MLG showdown qualifiers: PRE patch. Hellbats were imba, and they got patched. 2) Stephano, vortix, scarlett: all were destroying code S terrans in wol. Broodlord + infestor. 3) I look at the bo3 in general, and I see no problems. 4) Stephano is known for being lazy, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was half as prepared as Last. 5) The game is 5 days old. We terrans had to undergo broodlord + infestor untill the day of the release of HOTS. Put things into perspective.
It was statistically supported that zerg was OP in wol, and still everything was fine.
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I think mine AI needs to be fixed, at least no nerfs to Terran based on this tournament. The swarm is still strong.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
Top tier Kr Terrans beat mediocre foreign Zergs, community cry imba. Now Life beats Flash with pretty much the same strategy over and over, I wonder if Zerg is imba now?
I think Life proved a point - baddies QQ, pros adapt.
lol, i kid, i kid. That was the most entertaining tournament in ~4 months!! Grats to Life!
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I think HOTS balance is looking pretty solid after watching MLG. The first few rounds were the expected beatdowns of koreans vs foreigners. Once we got into the top level koreans, everyone seemed well matched. I'm so happy Life won :D
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On March 18 2013 10:14 FreshVegetables wrote: I think mine AI needs to be fixed, at least no nerfs to Terran based on this tournament. The swarm is still strong.
Mine AI is looking like a gamble that almost never pays off.
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"Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not?
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On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not?
Stargate play in PvT scares the hell out of me. If any one thing can turn the PvT meta on top of its head, its going to be protoss finding a way to make stargate units an integral part of their unit composition.
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On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not?
This is so true. People need to realize how far behind foreign pros are in terms of skill currently, I honestly believe the koreans would have beaten non-koreans with WoL units/upgrades only.
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On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 09:52 RaZorwire wrote:On March 18 2013 08:13 Snowbear wrote: Let's take a look at MLG's terrans: - Polt: kills creator (upset?), dies vs life (korean) - Last: kills stephano (foreigner), kills killer (foreigner), dies vs life (korean) - Mvp: kills feast (foreigner), dies to mc (korean) - Taeja: kills sase (foreigner), dies to bomber (terran) - Bomber: kills goswser (foreigner), kills taeja (terran), dies to mc (korean) - Flash aka GOD: kills bly (foreigner), kills ret (foreigner), kills parting (upset?), kills innovation (terran) - MKP: dies to jakji (korean) - Jakji: kills MKP (terran), dies to rain (korean) - Innovation: kills huk (foreigner), kills leenock (upset?), kills rain (upset?), dies to flash (terran)
So basicly, you guys say terran is OP, based on: - Polt killing creator - flash killing parting - innovation killing leenock & rain
What about flash & innovation being gods and deserving their wins? Then there is left: polt vs creator. Let's nerf terran based on that bo3?! No offence, but you are implying that the MLG-games are the only HotS-games that have been played. In addition to the one bo3 (which was actually a bo5) you seem to think is what everyone is basing all of their complaints on, we also have IEM and the MLG showdown qualifiers to look at, and in those, Terran victories have been overrepresented. Also, your assessment of the MLG-games is very one-dimensional. First off, the foreigners you imply should reasonably always lose to Koreans include players who have a good record vs Korean players (Stephano has a 5-4 record in Proleague in WoL, etc). Secondly, you are not looking at map score or the actual play in the games at all, only bo5-wins or losses. Is it reasonable that someone like Stephano loses to a Kespa-Terran? Well, sure. Is it reasonable that he loses 0-3 while looking completely helpless? Maybe, but it's at least worth taking into consideration who he is and how he lost, and not just "he's a foreigner facing a Korean, of course he lost". I'm not saying Terran is super-OP and needs to be nerfed into the ground, but there's definitely more to consider than one bo3. I also feel like this "wait and see"-attitude is a bit misguided. It's a sensible idea when the game seems balanced, but can't we at least make sure to start with an even playing field before letting things evolve naturally? When there's an apparent (and seemingly statistically supported) imbalance, wouldn't it make more sense to sort that out and then let the pro's figure everything out for themselves? I'm Terran myself, btw. Just figured that it would be good to mention.
On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 1) IEM and MLG showdown qualifiers: PRE patch. Hellbats were imba, and they got patched.
That is mostly incorrect. The last Hellbat-nerf happened on February 23rd. IEM was played after that, and 12 out of 28 MLG Showdown matches were as well.
On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 2) Stephano, vortix, scarlett: all were destroying code S terrans in wol. Broodlord + infestor.
Vortix and Scarlett weren't even at MLG. Why are you bringing them up? Also, what's your point? "Zerg was OP in WoL"? Yes, I know. They were. What does that have to do with what I said?
On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 3) I look at the bo3 in general, and I see no problems.
Not sure how you'd be doing that, considering almost all games where bo5.
And I do. See problems, that is. With the medivac speed boost, you have almost guaranteed damage and ability to escape with most of your units against most compositions, thanks to the short cooldown time. It requires no exceptional micro, and is overall pretty easy to use. Also, widow mines are almost always cost effective, even when only used passively for defence.
Again, I'm not saying Terran is super-OP or anything, but I do believe that a slightly higher boost cooldown would be nice, if nothing else to make the ability a bit harder to use. Widow mines could use some slight nerf as well.
On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 4) Stephano is known for being lazy, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was half as prepared as Last.
Well sure, he is known for being lazy, but he's more known for being the best foreigner in the history of Starcraft in addition to having a win/loss-ratio higher than 1 vs Kespa-players in WoL. He's, in fact, the only EG-TL-players with a winrate higher than 1.
On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote:
5) The game is 5 days old. We terrans had to undergo broodlord + infestor untill the day of the release of HOTS. Put things into perspective.
It was statistically supported that zerg was OP in wol, and still everything was fine.
?
Don't understand this part at all.
Yes, it was statistically supported that Zerg was OP, but no, everything was NOT fine.
That's part of my point, having the "wait and see"-attitude is reasonable sometimes, but it can also be really harmful if there's an apparent imbalance you refure to adress for too long.
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On March 18 2013 10:14 FreshVegetables wrote: I think mine AI needs to be fixed, at least no nerfs to Terran based on this tournament. The swarm is still strong.
Agreed. Perhaps more room for manual targeting, or less priority on things like Broodlings.
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On March 18 2013 10:53 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 10:14 FreshVegetables wrote: I think mine AI needs to be fixed, at least no nerfs to Terran based on this tournament. The swarm is still strong. Agreed. Perhaps more room for manual targeting, or less priority on things like Broodlings. If you could manual target something else need to be changed tough because it basically means ranged/flying banelings with a respawn timer to pick off key targets.
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On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not? I really hate this kind of statement. Not everyone think that Flash has the same skill level than Life you know ? I am a high master player, I can beat diamond players with stupid build, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced or something.
When talking about balance you have to take in consideration the skill level of boths players.
Flash didn't played very well compared to Life in this bo7, it's a very bad example in my opinion.
Medivacs are an issue. David Kim and his team need more time / datas / games played because defending it require a lot of learning / adapting. But even then, it's still too powerful and it will require a nerf, maybe a little one, but it's definitely coming.
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On March 18 2013 10:58 Shade_FR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not? I really hate this kind of statement. Not everyone think that Flash has the same skill level than Life you know ? I am a high master player, I can beat diamond players with stupid build, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced or something. When talking about balance you have to take in consideration the skill level of boths players. Flash didn't played very well compared to Life in this bo7, it's a very bad example in my opinion. Medivacs are an issue. David Kim and his team need more time because defending it require a lot of time, but even, it's still too powerful and it will require a nerf, maybe a little one, but definitely one.
Really? Yet everyone is whining when Korean Terrans beat up Foreign zergs. You seriously think they are on the same level? Foreign zergs beat korean terrans in WoL mainly due to OP BL/infestors.
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On March 18 2013 10:58 Shade_FR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not? I really hate this kind of statement. Not everyone think that Flash has the same skill level than Life you know ? I am a high master player, I can beat diamond players with stupid build, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced or something. When talking about balance you have to take in consideration the skill level of boths players. Flash didn't played very well compared to Life in this bo7, it's a very bad example in my opinion. Medivacs are an issue. David Kim and his team need more time / datas / games played because defending it require a lot of learning / adapting. But even then, it's still too powerful and it will require a nerf, maybe a little one, but it's definitely coming. And not everyone thinks Life has the same skill as Flash? whats your point lol.
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4713 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:41 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote:On March 18 2013 09:52 RaZorwire wrote:On March 18 2013 08:13 Snowbear wrote: Let's take a look at MLG's terrans: - Polt: kills creator (upset?), dies vs life (korean) - Last: kills stephano (foreigner), kills killer (foreigner), dies vs life (korean) - Mvp: kills feast (foreigner), dies to mc (korean) - Taeja: kills sase (foreigner), dies to bomber (terran) - Bomber: kills goswser (foreigner), kills taeja (terran), dies to mc (korean) - Flash aka GOD: kills bly (foreigner), kills ret (foreigner), kills parting (upset?), kills innovation (terran) - MKP: dies to jakji (korean) - Jakji: kills MKP (terran), dies to rain (korean) - Innovation: kills huk (foreigner), kills leenock (upset?), kills rain (upset?), dies to flash (terran)
So basicly, you guys say terran is OP, based on: - Polt killing creator - flash killing parting - innovation killing leenock & rain
What about flash & innovation being gods and deserving their wins? Then there is left: polt vs creator. Let's nerf terran based on that bo3?! No offence, but you are implying that the MLG-games are the only HotS-games that have been played. In addition to the one bo3 (which was actually a bo5) you seem to think is what everyone is basing all of their complaints on, we also have IEM and the MLG showdown qualifiers to look at, and in those, Terran victories have been overrepresented. Also, your assessment of the MLG-games is very one-dimensional. First off, the foreigners you imply should reasonably always lose to Koreans include players who have a good record vs Korean players (Stephano has a 5-4 record in Proleague in WoL, etc). Secondly, you are not looking at map score or the actual play in the games at all, only bo5-wins or losses. Is it reasonable that someone like Stephano loses to a Kespa-Terran? Well, sure. Is it reasonable that he loses 0-3 while looking completely helpless? Maybe, but it's at least worth taking into consideration who he is and how he lost, and not just "he's a foreigner facing a Korean, of course he lost". I'm not saying Terran is super-OP and needs to be nerfed into the ground, but there's definitely more to consider than one bo3. I also feel like this "wait and see"-attitude is a bit misguided. It's a sensible idea when the game seems balanced, but can't we at least make sure to start with an even playing field before letting things evolve naturally? When there's an apparent (and seemingly statistically supported) imbalance, wouldn't it make more sense to sort that out and then let the pro's figure everything out for themselves? I'm Terran myself, btw. Just figured that it would be good to mention. Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 1) IEM and MLG showdown qualifiers: PRE patch. Hellbats were imba, and they got patched.
That is mostly incorrect. The last Hellbat-nerf happened on February 23rd. IEM was played after that, and 12 out of 28 MLG Showdown matches were as well. Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 2) Stephano, vortix, scarlett: all were destroying code S terrans in wol. Broodlord + infestor.
Vortix and Scarlett weren't even at MLG. Why are you bringing them up? Also, what's your point? "Zerg was OP in WoL"? Yes, I know. They were. What does that have to do with what I said? Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 3) I look at the bo3 in general, and I see no problems.
Not sure how you'd be doing that, considering almost all games where bo5. And I do. See problems, that is. With the medivac speed boost, you have almost guaranteed damage and ability to escape with most of your units against most compositions, thanks to the short cooldown time. It requires no exceptional micro, and is overall pretty easy to use. Also, widow mines are almost always cost effective, even when only used passively for defence. Again, I'm not saying Terran is super-OP or anything, but I do believe that a slightly higher boost cooldown would be nice, if nothing else to make the ability a bit harder to use. Widow mines could use some slight nerf as well. Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 4) Stephano is known for being lazy, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was half as prepared as Last.
Well sure, he is known for being lazy, but he's more known for being the best foreigner in the history of Starcraft in addition to having a win/loss-ratio higher than 1 vs Kespa-players in WoL. He's, in fact, the only EG-TL-players with a winrate higher than 1. Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote:
5) The game is 5 days old. We terrans had to undergo broodlord + infestor untill the day of the release of HOTS. Put things into perspective.
It was statistically supported that zerg was OP in wol, and still everything was fine. ? Don't understand this part at all. Yes, it was statistically supported that Zerg was OP, but no, everything was NOT fine. That's part of my point, having the "wait and see"-attitude is reasonable sometimes, but it can also be really harmful if there's an apparent imbalance you refure to adress for too long.
Medivacs are only guaranteed damage if you let them do damage through lack of scouting. Careful overlord/observer placement will give you a heads up on when its comming, and static defenses in key locations will not only force the terran to divert more attention to his drops, but will also buy you some valuable time to reinforce your location, its also more cost efficient to lose 1 static defense then workers.
The most successful medivac defense I've seen was from Rain, who had observers in key locations to spot drops incoming, + some static defenses to buy him time while he repositioned units or warped in, also HTs. MC had map awareness via Phoenixes, that are by the way, also a great tool for denying and killing drops in transit.
And lastly Life, who also defended against drops with a combination of good overlord spread, static defenses, mutalisks and lastly even Vipers to pull back Medivacs and prevent them from escaping.
There are really very little conclusions that you could draw from this MLG too, the game is still too new, and very different styles are starting to be experimented with, terran is again the first to use all its new tools and its zergs and toss that are figuring out how to use their own as well as how to handle terrans.
Mines aren't that bad either, you can either slowly and meticulously clear them out with ranged units + detectors, or you can use expendable units to absorb the shots and then flood in. Also, both zergs and toss have tools to bait out mine detonations, either 1 single ling for zerg or a hallucination from toss, its just that people are not that used to it yet.
Wait for GSL before you draw any conclusions.
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On March 18 2013 11:02 Killcani wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 10:58 Shade_FR wrote:On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not? I really hate this kind of statement. Not everyone think that Flash has the same skill level than Life you know ? I am a high master player, I can beat diamond players with stupid build, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced or something. When talking about balance you have to take in consideration the skill level of boths players. Flash didn't played very well compared to Life in this bo7, it's a very bad example in my opinion. Medivacs are an issue. David Kim and his team need more time / datas / games played because defending it require a lot of learning / adapting. But even then, it's still too powerful and it will require a nerf, maybe a little one, but it's definitely coming. And not everyone thinks Life has the same skill as Flash? whats your point lol. My point is, do you think Flash played better than Life in this Bo7 ? Life was far more superior no matter what. There were some poor decision makings from Flash.
Life defended well against Medivacs because he was a better player in this Bo7, I don't think posting "see! medivacs are balanced after all !" in this topic is a smart idea. You have to consider the players in balance talk.
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On March 18 2013 11:05 Shade_FR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:02 Killcani wrote:On March 18 2013 10:58 Shade_FR wrote:On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not? I really hate this kind of statement. Not everyone think that Flash has the same skill level than Life you know ? I am a high master player, I can beat diamond players with stupid build, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced or something. When talking about balance you have to take in consideration the skill level of boths players. Flash didn't played very well compared to Life in this bo7, it's a very bad example in my opinion. Medivacs are an issue. David Kim and his team need more time / datas / games played because defending it require a lot of learning / adapting. But even then, it's still too powerful and it will require a nerf, maybe a little one, but it's definitely coming. And not everyone thinks Life has the same skill as Flash? whats your point lol. My point is, do you think Flash played better than Life in this Bo7 ? Life was far more superior no matter what. There were some poor decision makings from Flash. Life defended well against Medivacs because he was a better player in this Bo7, I don't think posting "see, medivacs are balanced after all !" is very well thought... Well to defend against medivacs you should be the better player or something is wrong do you not agree? Or should some random master Z have an easy time defending drops from Flash?. Im just saying Flash is NOT lacking in skill but maybe he is lacking in practice.
The most OP thing I saw in that series were those banelings busts they seemed way better than any widow mine or speedvacs.
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On March 18 2013 11:09 Killcani wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:05 Shade_FR wrote:On March 18 2013 11:02 Killcani wrote:On March 18 2013 10:58 Shade_FR wrote:On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not? I really hate this kind of statement. Not everyone think that Flash has the same skill level than Life you know ? I am a high master player, I can beat diamond players with stupid build, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced or something. When talking about balance you have to take in consideration the skill level of boths players. Flash didn't played very well compared to Life in this bo7, it's a very bad example in my opinion. Medivacs are an issue. David Kim and his team need more time / datas / games played because defending it require a lot of learning / adapting. But even then, it's still too powerful and it will require a nerf, maybe a little one, but it's definitely coming. And not everyone thinks Life has the same skill as Flash? whats your point lol. My point is, do you think Flash played better than Life in this Bo7 ? Life was far more superior no matter what. There were some poor decision makings from Flash. Life defended well against Medivacs because he was a better player in this Bo7, I don't think posting "see, medivacs are balanced after all !" is very well thought... Well to defend against medivacs you should be the better player or something is wrong do you not agree? Or should some random master Z have an easy time defending drops from Flash?. Im just saying Flash is NOT lacking in skill but maybe he is lacking in practice. The most OP thing I saw in that series were those banelings busts they seemed way better than any widow mine or speedvacs.
Flash had like 0 intel on the baneling bust? Of course he is going to get punished if you are not gonna scout it out.
It is pretty silly to called baneling busts more OP than mines/speedvacs in that silly. When baneling busts is still the same as it is in WoL.
lol.
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4713 Posts
On March 18 2013 11:09 Killcani wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:05 Shade_FR wrote:On March 18 2013 11:02 Killcani wrote:On March 18 2013 10:58 Shade_FR wrote:On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not? I really hate this kind of statement. Not everyone think that Flash has the same skill level than Life you know ? I am a high master player, I can beat diamond players with stupid build, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced or something. When talking about balance you have to take in consideration the skill level of boths players. Flash didn't played very well compared to Life in this bo7, it's a very bad example in my opinion. Medivacs are an issue. David Kim and his team need more time / datas / games played because defending it require a lot of learning / adapting. But even then, it's still too powerful and it will require a nerf, maybe a little one, but it's definitely coming. And not everyone thinks Life has the same skill as Flash? whats your point lol. My point is, do you think Flash played better than Life in this Bo7 ? Life was far more superior no matter what. There were some poor decision makings from Flash. Life defended well against Medivacs because he was a better player in this Bo7, I don't think posting "see, medivacs are balanced after all !" is very well thought... Well to defend against medivacs you should be the better player or something is wrong do you not agree? Or should some random master Z have an easy time defending drops from Flash?. Im just saying Flash is NOT lacking in skill but maybe he is lacking in practice. The most OP thing I saw in that series were those banelings busts they seemed way better than any widow mine or speedvacs.
No, not really, those busts die to well positioned tanks, Life was just smart though, he identified Flash's style and used it against him by building a perfect counter. Bio-mine has a very hard time holding a push like that, but tanks would crush it.
Flash would have needed to move his helions around the map a bit better to scout, as well as scan the main of Life at some point, doing one or both of those would have tipped him off and maybe he could have prepared better.
Overall, I haven't see anything I'd consider broken, just players still learning the ropes and needing to adapt, the better player won in the end, and he was Life, the most adaptable player there, the one who tailored his style to his opponent each and every time.
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one of the few zergs who didn't morph fleets of broodlords behind endless lines of sunkens with 10+ slugs to supplement just beat flash when zerg was supposedly weak in hots
maybe zergs who based their playstyles on this very simple playstyle have to adjust a tiny bit. since life didn't have to, he hit the ground running. he basically played wol -- his brand of it -- zerg in hots and it worked just fine.
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On March 18 2013 11:05 Shade_FR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:02 Killcani wrote:On March 18 2013 10:58 Shade_FR wrote:On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not? I really hate this kind of statement. Not everyone think that Flash has the same skill level than Life you know ? I am a high master player, I can beat diamond players with stupid build, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced or something. When talking about balance you have to take in consideration the skill level of boths players. Flash didn't played very well compared to Life in this bo7, it's a very bad example in my opinion. Medivacs are an issue. David Kim and his team need more time / datas / games played because defending it require a lot of learning / adapting. But even then, it's still too powerful and it will require a nerf, maybe a little one, but it's definitely coming. And not everyone thinks Life has the same skill as Flash? whats your point lol. My point is, do you think Flash played better than Life in this Bo7 ? Life was far more superior no matter what. There were some poor decision makings from Flash. Life defended well against Medivacs because he was a better player in this Bo7, I don't think posting "see! medivacs are balanced after all !" in this topic is a smart idea. You have to consider the players in balance talk.
I think you are missing the point of his post.. you are practically devolving into self-parody at this point. When you pick and choose which matches are significant to game balance based on your own self serving bias you aren't convincing anyone.
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On March 18 2013 11:05 Shade_FR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:02 Killcani wrote:On March 18 2013 10:58 Shade_FR wrote:On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not? I really hate this kind of statement. Not everyone think that Flash has the same skill level than Life you know ? I am a high master player, I can beat diamond players with stupid build, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced or something. When talking about balance you have to take in consideration the skill level of boths players. Flash didn't played very well compared to Life in this bo7, it's a very bad example in my opinion. Medivacs are an issue. David Kim and his team need more time / datas / games played because defending it require a lot of learning / adapting. But even then, it's still too powerful and it will require a nerf, maybe a little one, but it's definitely coming. And not everyone thinks Life has the same skill as Flash? whats your point lol. My point is, do you think Flash played better than Life in this Bo7 ? Life was far more superior no matter what. There were some poor decision makings from Flash. Life defended well against Medivacs because he was a better player in this Bo7, I don't think posting "see! medivacs are balanced after all !" in this topic is a smart idea. You have to consider the players in balance talk.
Taking players skills into account, we mostly see top korean terrans beating foreigner zergs so we're ok. Even the Last-Stephano series was hardly a surprise.
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On March 18 2013 11:14 -_- wrote: one of the few zergs who didn't morph fleets of broodlords behind endless lines of sunkens with 10+ slugs to supplement just beat flash when zerg was supposedly weak in hots
maybe zergs who based their playstyles on this very simple playstyle have to adjust a tiny bit. since life didn't have to, he hit the ground running. he basically played wol -- his brand of it -- zerg in hots and it worked just fine. the issue was that widow mines where doing nothing
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I think Zergs could use minor, minor buffs to deal with speedivacs but keep the game exciting. Like a bit more vision with morphing an overseer, or a slightly larger radius on fungal.
It's fun to watch zerg chase medivacs. It just shouldn't be impossible.
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On March 18 2013 11:03 Destructicon wrote:
Medivacs are only guaranteed damage if you let them do damage through lack of scouting. Careful overlord/observer placement will give you a heads up on when its comming, and static defenses in key locations will not only force the terran to divert more attention to his drops, but will also buy you some valuable time to reinforce your location, its also more cost efficient to lose 1 static defense then workers.
True to some extent, of course, but it still seems like the amount of resources and effort you need to use to ward off drops is not even close to proportionate to how easy and simple they are to perform. Defending against the drops requires scouting, overlord-positioning, static defence and other things you mentioned, but actually doing the drops doesn't require much at all. You don't need scouting information, since almost regardless of what is defending you can escape unscathed if you're not completely distracted. You don't need a big investment in tech and units since marine/medivac is what you want for your main army anyway. You don't need good micro to execute the drop, and you don't need to be particularly careful about when and where you engage the boost, since the cooldown time is really short.
My main problem with Infestors in WoL was not that they were powerful, but that they were powerful and, for the most part, really freaking easy to use. Landing good fungals didn't require much skill, but splitting to avoid fungals was a complete nightmare. While medivacs are (thankfully) not on Infestor-level yet, they still feel too easy to use in comparison to how much you gain from them, and how difficult it is to defend against them. As a Terran player, it pisses me off a little bit that dropping is so much easier than is WoL. I love the idea behind the boost since it gives the Terran a constant aggressive option, but right now, it seems very low risk/low skill/high reward. A cooldown increase would, IMO, be a good way to adress that.
On March 18 2013 11:03 Destructicon wrote: There are really very little conclusions that you could draw from this MLG too, the game is still too new, and very different styles are starting to be experimented with, terran is again the first to use all its new tools and its zergs and toss that are figuring out how to use their own as well as how to handle terrans.
Mines aren't that bad either, you can either slowly and meticulously clear them out with ranged units + detectors, or you can use expendable units to absorb the shots and then flood in. Also, both zergs and toss have tools to bait out mine detonations, either 1 single ling for zerg or a hallucination from toss, its just that people are not that used to it yet.
Wait for GSL before you draw any conclusions.
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here. There's no reason why Terran players would be the first to start using their new tools in HotS. My conclusions (like I said) aren't based on this MLG alone, but on the Showdowns, IEM, and also streamed ladder games, pro-player comments, etc. And while I get where you're coming from with the "wait and see"-reasoning, it still doesn't make sense to me while you can't start with what seems like an even playing field and THEN wait and see.
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different tools have different skill cap, and different races adapt at different speed. Too early to tell, wait for it.
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Because I care, I will make post on this.
So, we have protoss, with the oracle, which is about the stupidest unit design ever created. Far too easy to get and gives Protoss far too strong of an opener (vs any race). As we all saw, players would leave 5-10 marines in their mineral line in order to defend this oracle "harass" but it just was not enough! Now, many people who like Protoss may rush to say "but if you make a turret/spore/cannon, it's no problem!" but even that is false. You are STILL required to leave marines there due to how much HP the Oracle actually has (100 life, 60 shield). It's DPS is so incredibly high that is can kill 3 workers, and slip right out without taking any effective damage. I'm not done with this oracle yet though!! The craziest part about this unit is, even though it's really strong and may help equalize PvT, it actually requires very little skill to use. It's damage is so high that microing it doesn't even do anything. It cannot attack air, so there is no prioritizing that it has to do. It's also so fast that nothing can really keep up to it except for mutas (this situation never really happens anyway). It's a pointless unit, adding nothing to the game.
Voidray has not been used enough competitively for me to say whether it's too strong or not. It looks pretty powerful, but I've seen people lose with it plenty too. I will leave that one untouched.
The medivac. What a unit it is!! It heals and has 8 seconds of untouchable speed! (20 second cooldown). The idea itself is actually pretty good. It adds (some) tactical depth to the game. But the medivac itself was already fairly strong. The real issue here is that the medivac can use this as much as it wants! This is not an upgrade like blink, this ability is available from the get-go! But because Blizzard forgot one of the key factors in what makes a skill/unit good, the ability is basically used as much as possible. Why doesn't the Ignite Afterburners cost medivac life (like a stim) or use energy? It's absolutely retarded. I like medivacs, and I like drops, and I like multi-harass, but this spell was simply half-assed.
Then there's the widow mine. This is also another unit that could definitely add depth to the game, and almost does!! But right now, it's too strong, too early. It's far too expendable, so there's little reason to ever NOT get at least 1-2 in a match. There is no reason why a unit should be able to get burrow/cloak this early in a game. It's far too abusive. I wouldn't even say players are using this unit even close to its potential. Perhaps if they made it visible during its downtime or uptime (when the "shot" is available or not) then it would be better. You can position these really tactically, much like a siege tank or burrowed bling, but since it can attack both air and ground AND has cloak, it's too strong/flexible.
But ultralisks, what a stupid unit they are! While not totally overpowered (it DOES require hive tech, so much more can happen before then...) it still is a horrible unit. It is the equivalent of a zealot, except does splash damage and is stupidly large. The fact that it does full damage to everything makes it possibly the most herpderp unit out there. You basically don't even micro the unit. You let it do its thing on some marines and they die. That's total shit. Direct damage buffs don't make the unit a GOOD unit, it just makes it stupid and strong. Zzz..
If they want to make a game with depth, then they seriously need to make all of these new units/spells have a downside to them. Since Path of Exile is an actually well thought-out game, I will use it as an example. There are some large keystones (passive skills that you can get when you level) which provide a beneficial effect. But (almost) ALL of these have a negative effect to them... Elemental Equilibrium: Enemies you hit with elemental damage temporarily get +25% resist to those elements and -50% to other elements. Vaal Pact: Life Leech applies instantly. Life recovery from life flasks (aka heal potions) and regeneration has no effect. Point Blank: Projectiles deal up to 50% more damage to close targets, but deal less damage than normal to targets farther away.
ALL of these have their pros and cons. The same should apply to SC2 units. The oracle is fast enough that even though it cannot attack air, it can still come in, deal tons of damage, and scurry out. This means that the "cons" for this unit are mostly negligible. The medivac doesn't require an upgrade for IA, nor does it require energy or life. Widow mine is too abusive, forcing some form of detection early on which can directly and indirectly cause a lot of damage.
Blizzard needs to just think about the skills they are adding and think "Will this require skill and require thought?" Because currently, they are adding in random shit in hopes that it will make the game good. That's not good.
I'm sure only 5 people will end up reading my oh-so-logical post, but that's okay!!
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This thread makes my head hurt.
I can't believe you all think you are such experts in game balance and design.
One tournament surely doesn't tell us everything we need to know about balance? From what I saw of MLG it was one of the most action packed and exciting tournaments I have seen in a long time. Yet everyone wants nerfs after one freaking tournament, give it some time to see how the game and new strategy's evolve.
In my opinion the Zerg and Protoss bias in the casting also has a lot to do with this problem we're having at the moment. So many balance complaints and subtle and also not so subtle stabs at the new terran units. I really believe casters should keep out of balance while casting especially when they have massive bias towards their own race. For better or worse so many people listen to the casters opinions and this seems to have a negative effect on the mindset of viewers.
I'm ranting I know but I'm honestly so sad/annoyed at the way the community handles themselves.
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4713 Posts
On March 18 2013 11:35 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:03 Destructicon wrote:
Medivacs are only guaranteed damage if you let them do damage through lack of scouting. Careful overlord/observer placement will give you a heads up on when its comming, and static defenses in key locations will not only force the terran to divert more attention to his drops, but will also buy you some valuable time to reinforce your location, its also more cost efficient to lose 1 static defense then workers.
True to some extent, of course, but it still seems like the amount of resources and effort you need to use to ward off drops is not even close to proportionate to how easy and simple they are to perform. Defending against the drops requires scouting, overlord-positioning, static defence and other things you mentioned, but actually doing the drops doesn't require much at all. You don't need scouting information, since almost regardless of what is defending you can escape unscathed if you're not completely distracted. You don't need a big investment in tech and units since marine/medivac is what you want for your main army anyway. You don't need good micro to execute the drop, and you don't need to be particularly careful about when and where you engage the boost, since the cooldown time is really short. My main problem with Infestors in WoL was not that they were powerful, but that they were powerful and, for the most part, really freaking easy to use. Landing good fungals didn't require much skill, but splitting to avoid fungals was a complete nightmare. While medivacs are (thankfully) not on Infestor-level yet, they still feel too easy to use in comparison to how much you gain from them, and how difficult it is to defend against them. As a Terran player, it pisses me off a little bit that dropping is so much easier than is WoL. I love the idea behind the boost since it gives the Terran a constant aggressive option, but right now, it seems very low risk/low skill/high reward. A cooldown increase would, IMO, be a good way to adress that. Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:03 Destructicon wrote: There are really very little conclusions that you could draw from this MLG too, the game is still too new, and very different styles are starting to be experimented with, terran is again the first to use all its new tools and its zergs and toss that are figuring out how to use their own as well as how to handle terrans.
Mines aren't that bad either, you can either slowly and meticulously clear them out with ranged units + detectors, or you can use expendable units to absorb the shots and then flood in. Also, both zergs and toss have tools to bait out mine detonations, either 1 single ling for zerg or a hallucination from toss, its just that people are not that used to it yet.
Wait for GSL before you draw any conclusions. I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here. There's no reason why Terran players would be the first to start using their new tools in HotS. My conclusions (like I said) aren't based on this MLG alone, but on the Showdowns, IEM, and also streamed ladder games, pro-player comments, etc. And while I get where you're coming from with the "wait and see"-reasoning, it still doesn't make sense to me while you can't start with what seems like an even playing field and THEN wait and see.
The reason why terrans use their new tools now is because they are cheeper/more accessible or, already integrated into their builds/styles. Terrans always like to drop, speed boost just encourages it more, mines are cheep and low tech + very versatile, its very natural people will make them and experiment with the quickly, same with reapers. Vipers and SH on the other hand are very high tier units and require either a very new play style to use correctly, or require a lot of practice to learn to use properly. Oracles and SG openings require a totally different play style, tempest is high tier unit etc.
As you can see, all the elements are in place for terrans to be the first to experiment and possibly master the use of their new toys, while zergs and toss will need more time to do that + they also need to adapt to the new terran styles.
It kind of feels like an even playing field right now for me, based on what I've seen. I truly feel like we need a GSL to really draw the conclusions necessary for any adjustments.
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The reason why terrans use their new tools now is because they are cheeper/more accessible or, already integrated into their builds/styles. Terrans always like to drop, speed boost just encourages it more, mines are cheep and low tech + very versatile, its very natural people will make them and experiment with the quickly, same with reapers. Vipers and SH on the other hand are very high tier units and require either a very new play style to use correctly, or require a lot of practice to learn to use properly. Oracles and SG openings require a totally different play style, tempest is high tier unit etc.
As you can see, all the elements are in place for terrans to be the first to experiment and possibly master the use of their new toys, while zergs and toss will need more time to do that + they also need to adapt to the new terran styles.
It kind of feels like an even playing field right now for me, based on what I've seen. I truly feel like we need a GSL to really draw the conclusions necessary for any adjustments.
Very well said!
And I completely agree about waiting for a full GSL before making any drastic changes..
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On March 18 2013 11:46 Infinite Loop wrote: This thread makes my head hurt.
I can't believe you all think you are such experts in game balance and design.
One tournament surely doesn't tell us everything we need to know about balance? From what I saw of MLG it was one of the most action packed and exciting tournaments I have seen in a long time. Yet everyone wants nerfs after one freaking tournament, give it some time to see how the game and new strategy's evolve.
In my opinion the Zerg and Protoss bias in the casting also has a lot to do with this problem we're having at the moment. So many balance complaints and subtle and also not so subtle stabs at the new terran units. I really believe casters should keep out of balance while casting especially when they have massive bias towards their own race. For better or worse so many people listen to the casters opinions and this seems to have a negative effect on the mindset of viewers.
I'm ranting I know but I'm honestly so sad/annoyed at the way the community handles themselves.
So it wasn't only me who got annoyed of all bias in the casting.
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I think Terrans need a bit more time to fine tune and iron out some stuff. Life winning over Flash tonight really didn't mean much to me, in general Terrans did really well in the event, too early to say if it's really imbalanced that badly or not.
TvZ looks great again and is really fun to watch. It's not a race to infestor broodlord every game anymore which is incredibly refreshing to watch.
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We had how many utterly top tier Terrans this recent MLG?
It is no wonder the field was dominated so heavily.
People were screaming imba during Ret vs Flash, yet the result would have been the same. Ret played BW so he just needs to remember multiple control groups exist, he was literally 1a'ing his army back to deal with drops. Static D was absent vs a lot of T drops. You can't tell balance from these games quite yet. You can tell Zergs are getting outplayed.
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On March 18 2013 11:59 AIKfans87 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:46 Infinite Loop wrote: This thread makes my head hurt.
I can't believe you all think you are such experts in game balance and design.
One tournament surely doesn't tell us everything we need to know about balance? From what I saw of MLG it was one of the most action packed and exciting tournaments I have seen in a long time. Yet everyone wants nerfs after one freaking tournament, give it some time to see how the game and new strategy's evolve.
In my opinion the Zerg and Protoss bias in the casting also has a lot to do with this problem we're having at the moment. So many balance complaints and subtle and also not so subtle stabs at the new terran units. I really believe casters should keep out of balance while casting especially when they have massive bias towards their own race. For better or worse so many people listen to the casters opinions and this seems to have a negative effect on the mindset of viewers.
I'm ranting I know but I'm honestly so sad/annoyed at the way the community handles themselves.
So it wasn't only me who got annoyed of all bias in the casting.
Worse is that it trickles down into the forums and fan conversations.
Sometimes when my friends and I play we'll get only a few games in before they put on their blizzard employee hats and start pointing things out they're favorite player/caster has said is "broken" / "too strong". Always notably from their race.
In Blizzard's attempt to listen to us and our input they've unleashed balance worries, and the need to be vocal about them, to every player on ladder.
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Balance is a joke and zerg matchups are boring.
ZvT and ZvP is unplayable late game. ZvZ is mutas vs mutas 99% of the time. Back to WoL til they fix the bullshit!
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On March 18 2013 15:33 Topzerg wrote: Balance is a joke and zerg matchups are boring.
ZvT and ZvP is unplayable late game. ZvZ is mutas vs mutas 99% of the time. Back to WoL til they fix the bullshit!
Uh zvt and zvp are plalyable late game, zvz muta vs muta so much more fun then wol style. Sorry you don't enjoy compositions that require a bit more skill then infestor/bl/corruptor and are a lot more fun to watch
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mutas vs mutas doesnt require more skills, it only requires morel uck being the first to hit the opponents expansion with a lucky runby...
and if it was balanced, i should not be able to play protoss at the same level i play zerg when ive been playign zerg for 2 years
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On March 18 2013 15:49 Topzerg wrote:mutas vs mutas doesnt require more skills, it only requires morel uck being the first to hit the opponents expansion with a lucky runby... and if it was balanced, i should not be able to play protoss at the same level i play zerg when ive been playign zerg for 2 years Maybe Protoss is the race that suites your style more? :D besides, zvz is about scouting, i dont think you win because of luck or i have never won or lost a zvz because of luck ^^
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On March 18 2013 11:44 Blargh wrote: But ultralisks, what a stupid unit they are! While not totally overpowered (it DOES require hive tech, so much more can happen before then...) it still is a horrible unit. It is the equivalent of a zealot, except does splash damage and is stupidly large. The fact that it does full damage to everything makes it possibly the most herpderp unit out there. You basically don't even micro the unit. You let it do its thing on some marines and they die. That's total shit. Direct damage buffs don't make the unit a GOOD unit, it just makes it stupid and strong. Zzz.. IMO the ultra really needed that change. In WoL it was an T3 melee unit which got slaughtered by zealots and marines.
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On March 18 2013 08:21 WhiteSatin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 08:19 j4vz wrote: I hope blizzard wont patch anything for the next 2 months, +1
Gotta agree, I hope they don't change anything until at least the first HOTS GSL season finishes.
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1. Make the Oracle start with 0 energy 2. Increase the cost of the Widow Mine to 100/50 up from 75/25
I hope they leave the Medivac untouched and target the Widow Mine. The Medivac requires alot of effort on the part of the Terran, mines do not.
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its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron]
im happy it doesnt use any energy, easier to snipe in 1 shot with feedbacks
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On March 18 2013 19:00 Sniffy wrote: I hope they leave the Medivac untouched and target the Widow Mine. The Medivac requires alot of effort on the part of the Terran, mines do not. How so? It seems to me that the boost has made dropping significantly easier and less risky, than in WoL.
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On March 18 2013 19:32 danakaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 19:00 Sniffy wrote: I hope they leave the Medivac untouched and target the Widow Mine. The Medivac requires alot of effort on the part of the Terran, mines do not. How so? It seems to me that the boost has made dropping significantly easier and less risky, than in WoL.
I don't think that's a bad thing though as I feel like at times drops felt almost impossible in WoL especially when Z were very active with Mutas. With Mutas now being faster I think drops are ok at the moment but mines are ridiculously cost efficient and in all honesty aren't that difficult to place intelligently and require no micro past that.
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75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size.
I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured.
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For the medivac boost, I think they should increase the cooldown time for it (from 20 seconds to 40), then you can't boost in, drop, do damage, and boost out. You have to decide beforehand if you want to use it to get in or save it for when you leave. It would make static defense better against the drops.
For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these): Increase their cost Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown
I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s.
Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units.
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On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size.
I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured.
Yeah because one tournament a week after release is a viable sample size.
You must be david kims secret account
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On March 18 2013 11:59 AIKfans87 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:46 Infinite Loop wrote: This thread makes my head hurt.
I can't believe you all think you are such experts in game balance and design.
One tournament surely doesn't tell us everything we need to know about balance? From what I saw of MLG it was one of the most action packed and exciting tournaments I have seen in a long time. Yet everyone wants nerfs after one freaking tournament, give it some time to see how the game and new strategy's evolve.
In my opinion the Zerg and Protoss bias in the casting also has a lot to do with this problem we're having at the moment. So many balance complaints and subtle and also not so subtle stabs at the new terran units. I really believe casters should keep out of balance while casting especially when they have massive bias towards their own race. For better or worse so many people listen to the casters opinions and this seems to have a negative effect on the mindset of viewers.
I'm ranting I know but I'm honestly so sad/annoyed at the way the community handles themselves.
So it wasn't only me who got annoyed of all bias in the casting.
No it was awful. Day9 was going on and on about how outrageously strong Hellbats were, when hardly anyone was even making them, and when they were made they were not deciding factors in the game.
admittedly, even as a terran, the medivac boost made me cringe reguarly although after we got to the quarter finals, the standard of play shot up through the roof and we got so many awesome games I dunno what to think now. Definitely would wait a while before changing mines, though.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size.
I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured.
Do yourself a favor and look at the Terran line-up at the MLG, then look at the Zerg and Protoss Lineups before you cry imba and make yourself look like a dimwit. KTHXBYE
Terran = all top-tier Kr Terran except for Thorzain, and needless to say, Thorzain didn't do well, Zerg only had 3 good players, Life, Leenock, Stephano, the rest? /lol. and toss? you know the drill. Between all the Terran players, there's easily more championship/titles than Zerg and Toss combined then times 3.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_MLG_Winter_Championship
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On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size.
I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured. havent been following hots,but just looking at the liquipedia page MLG had like 70% of the world's best terrans thrown against 2 good zergs and 3 good tosses? hardly representative if you ask me.
this new medivac skill was quite surprising though...correct me if im wrong, but they basically un-nerfed medivacs to what they used to be back around the second GSL
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On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size.
I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured.
You could make energy cost for medivac boost 200 and Flash would still win vs someone like ret. Those percentages mean nothing.
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Those winrates mean absolutely nothing. Or at least remove all the foreigner games, but then the sample size is ridiculously small..
When is the next GSL scheduled?
There are a loooot of Zergs, I think we will see if there really are strong balance issues with this race.
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Arguing that aspects of terran aren't imbalanced because the best players at MLG were terrans isn't a valid argument. Just because the best players play a particular race doesn't mean that aspects of that race aren't imbalanced. Judging balance from one tournament is pretty dumb but you can't rely on statements like 'oh the best players are all terrans, therefore there's no imbalance'. Those players could quite reasonably be the best players in virtue of the advantages that terran brings over the other races.
Speed medivacs look problematic for mech play in TvT in all honesty, though. How are you supposed to simultaneously defend your main against a 4/5 medivac doom drop (outside of mass turrets which you're not going to be able to afford unless you're way ahead)? We could see how much trouble it caused for the far more mobile bio-mech in the Flash vs Innovation set.
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On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size.
I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured. I would be fine with the "visible for X seconds after detonation" nerf honestly. Regardless, 10 of the best Terrans in the world trashing a bunch of low grade foreigners doesn't warrant an instant Terran nerf.
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Anyone dissapointed with the current Siege Tank situation? It's even worse than in HotS. Plus it is overshadowed by Widow mines which is much cheaper, faster built, can hit air and overall more effective than tanks. (Other than early base defend because most people think that if flash incorporated 1-2 tanks to defend his base instead of mines he would have held the massive ling+baneling pushes) But that is the only thing tanks are good at. Defending early game pushes hidden between 6 supply depos and on a highground.
TvZ: Massively hardcountered by all tier 3 zerg units (Broodlords, Viper, Ultra). TvP: Still only good for some semi all-in pushes on 1/2 bases. TvT: It is used but leave your 4 tanks defending your 3rd without a babysit and 6 marauders will just come and wreck them.
Blizzard for some reason hates tanks and I find it hilarious that all the new changes for the Widow mine could have worked for the siege tank as well. (+35 dmg to shields and faster siege(burrow)) , because we all know that moving out with tanks is extremely dangerous and even top world terrans have troubles not sieging late vs zerg.
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On March 18 2013 21:18 Elvin wrote: Anyone dissapointed with the current Siege Tank situation? It's even worse than in HotS. Plus it is overshadowed by Widow mines which is much cheaper, faster built, can hit air and overall more effective than tanks. (Other than early base defend because most people think that if flash incorporated 1-2 tanks to defend his base instead of mines he would have held the massive ling+baneling pushes) But that is the only thing tanks are good at. Defending early game pushes hidden between 6 supply depos and on a highground.
TvZ: Massively hardcountered by all tier 3 zerg units (Broodlords, Viper, Ultra). TvP: Still only good for some semi all-in pushes on 1/2 bases. TvT: It is used but leave your 4 tanks defending your 3rd without a babysit and 6 marauders will just come and wreck them.
Blizzard for some reason hates tanks and I find it hilarious that all the new changes for the Widow mine could have worked for the siege tank as well. (+35 dmg to shields and faster siege(burrow)) , because we all know that moving out with tanks is extremely dangerous and even top world terrans have troubles not sieging late vs zerg.
I think that widow mines and tanks don't need to be an either/or choice. Widow mines actually do a really good job of protecting smaller areas, and can also act like turrets in protecting tanks from air. A zerg versus tanks wants to rush his whole army in as quickly as possible to crush a tank line. If he does this while there are mines burrowed around, he could wind up losing his entire army anyway.
But, it's really too early to tell. Flash vs. Life has me thinking that pure bio/mine is just too flimsy to be anything more than a gamble/changeup strategy.
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On March 18 2013 20:12 Ercster wrote: For the medivac boost, I think they should increase the cooldown time for it (from 20 seconds to 40), then you can't boost in, drop, do damage, and boost out. You have to decide beforehand if you want to use it to get in or save it for when you leave. It would make static defense better against the drops.
For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these): Increase their cost Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown
I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s.
Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units.
What credentials do you have to suggest these changes to this game?
How many games of HOTS have you seen professionally played to determine these changes, do you think that's enough?
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On March 18 2013 21:18 Elvin wrote: Anyone dissapointed with the current Siege Tank situation? It's even worse than in HotS. Plus it is overshadowed by Widow mines which is much cheaper, faster built, can hit air and overall more effective than tanks. (Other than early base defend because most people think that if flash incorporated 1-2 tanks to defend his base instead of mines he would have held the massive ling+baneling pushes) But that is the only thing tanks are good at. Defending early game pushes hidden between 6 supply depos and on a highground.
TvZ: Massively hardcountered by all tier 3 zerg units (Broodlords, Viper, Ultra). TvP: Still only good for some semi all-in pushes on 1/2 bases. TvT: It is used but leave your 4 tanks defending your 3rd without a babysit and 6 marauders will just come and wreck them.
Blizzard for some reason hates tanks and I find it hilarious that all the new changes for the Widow mine could have worked for the siege tank as well. (+35 dmg to shields and faster siege(burrow)) , because we all know that moving out with tanks is extremely dangerous and even top world terrans have troubles not sieging late vs zerg.
Yeah, good points. I really dislike the state of the Siege Tank in SC2.
I think Widow Mines should get a slight damage decrease (-5) in +Shield (no longer onehit Stalkers and Oracles, but almost) as well as decreased splash damage/radius. Do Widow Mines get +damage from Mech Upgrades?
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On March 18 2013 21:18 Elvin wrote: Anyone dissapointed with the current Siege Tank situation? It's even worse than in HotS. Plus it is overshadowed by Widow mines which is much cheaper, faster built, can hit air and overall more effective than tanks. (Other than early base defend because most people think that if flash incorporated 1-2 tanks to defend his base instead of mines he would have held the massive ling+baneling pushes) But that is the only thing tanks are good at. Defending early game pushes hidden between 6 supply depos and on a highground.
TvZ: Massively hardcountered by all tier 3 zerg units (Broodlords, Viper, Ultra). TvP: Still only good for some semi all-in pushes on 1/2 bases. TvT: It is used but leave your 4 tanks defending your 3rd without a babysit and 6 marauders will just come and wreck them.
Blizzard for some reason hates tanks and I find it hilarious that all the new changes for the Widow mine could have worked for the siege tank as well. (+35 dmg to shields and faster siege(burrow)) , because we all know that moving out with tanks is extremely dangerous and even top world terrans have troubles not sieging late vs zerg.
"Dissapointed" is a weak word for what am I feeling... This unit still exist? No tanks in TvZ,none in TvP.TvT will continue with their pressence,but I think is all about the Pros dicovering new strategies.The more time pass,the less widow mines will be used.Tanks are still good,but the mobility of the BIO makes players forget about siege lines.Ultralisks with splash damage are not helping,so maybe its time to make them 2 supply?
Pros still ignore widow mines and dont know how to counter them well,but watching MLG and how Life played..I only await GSL to begin where 15!!! real good Zerg will face 9 Terrans and 7 Protoss.There is the true,where games are well prepared and are no foreigners to break the statistics.Only Stephano(one more patchzerg),but will not pass the RO32 for sure.
The game has not changed so much.MMM was the combo to play in all TvX MU in the beginning of WoL and look how we ended this...
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On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size.
I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured. Minimal sample size that doesn't account for player skill (eg the fact that the tournament was filled with korean terrans). Suggest sweeping nerfs to terran.
Really?
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On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size.
I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured.
Why the fuck are people asking for balance at the highest levels for over 1 year, and suddenly start quoting these kind of stats :o
The games between koreans were amazing, went both ways, I don't see why people are complaining. Except for the fact that drops and forced multitasking are the bane and endless frustration of all newbies, so maybe it's understandable everyone and their mothers are rallied against medivacs.
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It'd be awesome if people could learn to stop being so subjectively extreme in their posts.
Looking at MLG I don't think you can really draw a single conclusion on game balance. Since ZvT is the hot topic, the things that we learned are:
-Bio + Mine is a very viable TvZ strategy -Speed Medivacs lead to more action oriented gameplay -Zerg can defeat this combination of Bio/Mine/Speed Medivac
If Blizzard decides there are problems (which, according to the latest interview they did) then I HOPE that their solution is to add more harass weapons/capabilities to Zerg/Protoss rather than nerfing Terran's ability to harass.
Subjectively I thought this weekend's games were incredibly fun to watch, mainly because of how Terran could successfully harass which forced incredible multitasking on both sides. I'd like to see gameplay continue in that direction.
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This sort of balance talk/whine is the most cancerous, destructive force in Starcraft 2. This is the type of talk that paved the way for 3 base patch zergs to suffocate the scene. It seems like people want Terran to go right back to what they were in Wings of Liberty. Why even have an expansion if that's your idea of balancing or improving the game? What did you pay $40 for?
I would suggest everyone look at SC2 with a wider lens than just "this race beat that race" and actually examine what is fun or exciting about it. Because regardless of any other factor watching terran throughout this tournament was actually fun. Medivacs (especially in tvt) were exciting, widow mines, despite kind of overshadowing tanks, were exciting. And that's something SC2 has been lacking for a very, very long time.
If you honestly advocate nerfing or taking away these sorts of elements, you're not just wrong, you're an enemy of esports. What you need to be doing is begging Blizzard to treat this like a beta and add/remove things to the other races to bring back this much needed, long forgotten thing called "excitement" to SC2. I know it's foreign and strange to actually see interesting things in SC2, but if you bring these other races in line rather than devote your energy to dragging Terran back down based on questionable data, you will be doing a service not just to yourself but to the world.
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On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size.
I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured.
Check the participants.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_MLG_Winter_Championship
Then get a clue of how small and unbalanced that sample size is with :
9 Korean terrans / 1 Foreigner Terran. 2 Korean zergs / 8 Foreigner Zergs 6 Korean Protoss / 6 Foreigner Protoss
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On March 18 2013 20:19 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:59 AIKfans87 wrote:On March 18 2013 11:46 Infinite Loop wrote: This thread makes my head hurt.
I can't believe you all think you are such experts in game balance and design.
One tournament surely doesn't tell us everything we need to know about balance? From what I saw of MLG it was one of the most action packed and exciting tournaments I have seen in a long time. Yet everyone wants nerfs after one freaking tournament, give it some time to see how the game and new strategy's evolve.
In my opinion the Zerg and Protoss bias in the casting also has a lot to do with this problem we're having at the moment. So many balance complaints and subtle and also not so subtle stabs at the new terran units. I really believe casters should keep out of balance while casting especially when they have massive bias towards their own race. For better or worse so many people listen to the casters opinions and this seems to have a negative effect on the mindset of viewers.
I'm ranting I know but I'm honestly so sad/annoyed at the way the community handles themselves.
So it wasn't only me who got annoyed of all bias in the casting. No it was awful. Day9 was going on and on about how outrageously strong Hellbats were, when hardly anyone was even making them, and when they were made they were not deciding factors in the game. admittedly, even as a terran, the medivac boost made me cringe reguarly although after we got to the quarter finals, the standard of play shot up through the roof and we got so many awesome games I dunno what to think now. Definitely would wait a while before changing mines, though.
Congratulations on getting trolled by Day[9], who has been doing this forever.
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I really cannot comment on high/pro level play.... but WM seems to have a pretty devastating impact on low level play.
I'm a Gold/Plat level player (dropped to Gold when switched to Random) and I'm pretty much keeping away from multiplayer until things get a bit more stable, but I did play a few dozen games and for the life of me I do not understand how lower level players are expected to efficiently deal with widow mines. Few sprinkled mines, one mistake and - poof - there goes your army. It makes for some hilarious replays and personally I find it amusing as hell but in the long-term I really don't know that having it around is beneficial. To come back to that counter-play principle - using WM is a hell of a lot more fun than having to deal with them, and while at the pro level I'm sure everyone will adapt and things will get nicely balanced, the frustration levels in low leagues could become pretty high.
So anyway, what I personally would really like to see balance-wise is a change to WM which wouldn't impact high-level play but would be much more noticeable the lower you go. I don't know what that might be, perhaps the need to re-prime the mine after it fires, anything, as long as WM becomes a little bit less a burrow-and-forget unit which is easy to use as an attacker but a nightmare for the defender - speaking of course for us average and below-average players.
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On March 18 2013 21:14 Absentia wrote: Arguing that aspects of terran aren't imbalanced because the best players at MLG were terrans isn't a valid argument. Just because the best players play a particular race doesn't mean that aspects of that race aren't imbalanced.
You're absolutely right. But it does mean that the only empirical evidence for it is worthless. Without evidence, the idea that the game currently favors Terran is just an undefended assertion.
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Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok.
The build up to the finals was frustrating. The medivac speed boost has no justification. Drops have always been powerful even in WoL. However, now they have little to no risk for such a powerful maneuver. I would say a decrease in the health of the medivac is in order.
I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
The problem with terran in SC2 has always been blizzard desperate need to make every terran unit extremely versatile. For a long time in WoL the reaper was the only bad unit the race had.
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote: The problem with terran in SC2 has always been blizzard desperate need to make every terran unit extremely versatile. For a long time in WoL the reaper was the only bad unit the race had.
Right. Because that wasn't the case in SC1. Where Siege Tanks were basically gods against anything on the ground, and coupled with Spider Mines and their meatshield Vultures, could tear apart anything walking. And the same Factory that produced STs and Vultures could also produce the single best GtA unit ever, which in decent numbers was capable of effectively dealing with virtually any air threat, from Mutalisks to Guardians to Carriers to BCs. All while not being flying themselves, and was thus not subject to being attacked by dedicated AtA units.
No, extremely versatile units has never been a hallmark of the Terran race...
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote: Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok.
The build up to the finals was frustrating. The medivac speed boost has no justification. Drops have always been powerful even in WoL. However, now they have little to no risk for such a powerful maneuver. I would say a decrease in the health of the medivac is in order.
I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
The problem with terran in SC2 has always been blizzard desperate need to make every terran unit extremely versatile. For a long time in WoL the reaper was the only bad unit the race had.
We saw that widow mines, and medivacs can be dealt with by good map presence and micro. So let's just nerf them so it's easier to deal with something. Make the game easier. Like the guy above pointed out this is exactly why at the end of wings it was 3 hatch zerg every single game. Oh, and viewership dropped really really low. So apparently everyone is kind of tired of this everyone gets a free ticket to macro heavily.
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote: Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok.
The build up to the finals was frustrating. The medivac speed boost has no justification. Drops have always been powerful even in WoL. However, now they have little to no risk for such a powerful maneuver. I would say a decrease in the health of the medivac is in order.
I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
The problem with terran in SC2 has always been blizzard desperate need to make every terran unit extremely versatile. For a long time in WoL the reaper was the only bad unit the race had. Medivac boost brought very good entertainment this MLG, unlike the last 20 WoL tournaments, the build up to the finals was fantastic, but there are always those that hate nice things among the ocean that loves them. WMs need to shoot air because without them mech is complete trashcan vs muta switches, thors were, are and will be horrible vs mutas, and that's just one major reason.
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote: Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok.
It's more other race players wanting to nerf other races instead. The game hasn't been out for 1 week yet. The sample size of MLG is not only small, but completly populated for korean terrans and no foreigner terrans to balance the stats (check the winrate of the only foreigner terran on TvZ). So instead of bitching, wait to make a more proper and informed post about why speedvacs need a nerf instead of lololtoostronk.
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I don't like the Mutalisk changes.
Mutalisks got a slight speed boost, but more importantly heal 3x as fast as in WoL (and compared to any other Zerg unit). So Muta harass is improved since they take less damage from being quicker, and heal so fast as to almost negate any pot shots you manage to hit before they flee. In BW and WoL, you could always value every single extra turret or marine shot you got on a Mutalisk because you knew they would get worn down and you would eventually defeat them. Now they just shrug off a few hits like nothing. Even Widow Mine splash damage is hardly an issue. A Zerg unit heals 13hp pretty fast. That's the equivalent of a Muta healing about 40.
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote: I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
Because irradiate doesn't exist in SC2 and thors are one of the worst new units they've ever come up with
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For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments?
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On March 18 2013 22:24 baba44713 wrote: I really cannot comment on high/pro level play.... but WM seems to have a pretty devastating impact on low level play.
I'm a Gold/Plat level player (dropped to Gold when switched to Random) and I'm pretty much keeping away from multiplayer until things get a bit more stable, but I did play a few dozen games and for the life of me I do not understand how lower level players are expected to efficiently deal with widow mines. Few sprinkled mines, one mistake and - poof - there goes your army. It makes for some hilarious replays and personally I find it amusing as hell but in the long-term I really don't know that having it around is beneficial. To come back to that counter-play principle - using WM is a hell of a lot more fun than having to deal with them, and while at the pro level I'm sure everyone will adapt and things will get nicely balanced, the frustration levels in low leagues could become pretty high.
So anyway, what I personally would really like to see balance-wise is a change to WM which wouldn't impact high-level play but would be much more noticeable the lower you go. I don't know what that might be, perhaps the need to re-prime the mine after it fires, anything, as long as WM becomes a little bit less a burrow-and-forget unit which is easy to use as an attacker but a nightmare for the defender - speaking of course for us average and below-average players.
But you might also attribute that to you trying to apply tactics and army compositions which are tailored to better players.
I, for one, always stayed away from Bio because I lack the proper multitasking for harass and aggressive play. Widow Mines only give me one more reason to stay away from it.
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote: I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea. Mech only has thors for anti-air and they suck against most air units.
Making mines only hit ground targets wouldn't really change the bio + mine style that we all saw so much, but it would cripple mech.
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On March 18 2013 22:36 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote: Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok. It's more other race players wanting to nerf other races instead. The game hasn't been out for 1 week yet. The sample size of MLG is not only small, but completly populated for korean terrans and no foreigner terrans to balance the stats (check the winrate of the only foreigner terran on TvZ). So instead of bitching, wait to make a more proper and informed post about why speedvacs need a nerf instead of lololtoostronk.
If anything, they should provide ways for the protoss and zerg to deal with the medivacs, rather than nerf an awesome ability. Personally, I think they should remove Stalker’s ability to blink up cliffs(they can still blink down, just not up) and get the research time back down to something reasonable. Blink being used to all in is bad for the game, but blink being used to shoot down turbo drops is awesome. Making blink come earlier would be awesome even if it can’t all in with it. And get vipers down to lair tech and make it so they can’t yank massive units as far(so not to break colossi forever).
They need to make it so we counter micro with micro, rather than nerfing the ability.
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On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments?
So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time.
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Just an FYI - raven siege tank hellion viking widow mine is probably the strongest positional composition in the game and will make a huge comeback as soon as people figure out how to deal with speedivacs
Siege tanks never went anywhere. They just don't fit into the current meta. As people learn how to deal with drops and drop play (current TvZ meta is ling bling muta material) they will be back and with additional firepower because you essentially get a free transition into late game terran air as a result of going mech now.
150 energy ravens are incredibly deadly.
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On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time.
Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg.
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I would actually like to see a change to the medivac speed. Maybe severely lower it's turning acceleration while boosting so you can't just zip all over the place. I don't think it needs a nerf for balance reasons, but I like the idea of risk vs reward. As of now if you are paying attention to drops, you can dance in and out with no risk at all. I always thought it was awesome in a pvt when you'd see stalkers sort of hiding and wait for the medivac to get in to the base before blinking in and sniping it. Without the risk, it sort of loses some excitement for me.
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On March 18 2013 23:25 ThirdDegree wrote: I would actually like to see a change to the medivac speed. Maybe severely lower it's turning acceleration while boosting so you can't just zip all over the place. I don't think it needs a nerf for balance reasons, but I like the idea of risk vs reward. As of now if you are paying attention to drops, you can dance in and out with no risk at all. I always thought it was awesome in a pvt when you'd see stalkers sort of hiding and wait for the medivac to get in to the base before blinking in and sniping it. Without the risk, it sort of loses some excitement for me.
I have been thinking this as well. I don’t think it would be a huge different to how the unit is used, but would make it so the other races could punish sloppy use of the boost. Plus it just makes sense that the medicvac would control differently while boosted. So instead of charging in, seeing a group of stalkers and zipping out with only taking one shot; the medivac might take 5-7 shots before escaping.
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On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg.
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent.
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On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent.
Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third.
This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac.
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You have recall, so if the terran does go for this base race you can recall back and deal with it. The ability that was used once, maybe twice in mlg.
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On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac.
You should specify that this is the case with whatever build you're talking about. Because stargate play obviously does not have this issue. Etc, pretty sick of seeing all these absolutes.
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On March 18 2013 23:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:25 ThirdDegree wrote: I would actually like to see a change to the medivac speed. Maybe severely lower it's turning acceleration while boosting so you can't just zip all over the place. I don't think it needs a nerf for balance reasons, but I like the idea of risk vs reward. As of now if you are paying attention to drops, you can dance in and out with no risk at all. I always thought it was awesome in a pvt when you'd see stalkers sort of hiding and wait for the medivac to get in to the base before blinking in and sniping it. Without the risk, it sort of loses some excitement for me. I have been thinking this as well. I don’t think it would be a huge different to how the unit is used, but would make it so the other races could punish sloppy use of the boost. Plus it just makes sense that the medicvac would control differently while boosted. So instead of charging in, seeing a group of stalkers and zipping out with only taking one shot; the medivac might take 5-7 shots before escaping. "Instead of the drop being useful once again, let's bring it back to WoL standards!" 5-7 shots kills a medivac btw. It's not proven to be broken yet, and everybody clamoring for changes at this point is stupid.
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On March 18 2013 23:37 tauliss wrote: You have recall, so if the terran does go for this base race you can recall back and deal with it. The ability that was used once, maybe twice in mlg.
Recall stuns your units for 8 seconds and they appear around the nexus in a huge mess, zealots and stalkers everywhere. Against stimmed marines and marauders, that would lead to a lot of lost supply with no damage. Even if you did damage, the terran can just pick up and leave. One way damage is always bad and its super bad when stim is involved. And recalling back might not lead to you denying their third base, which is how they are getting ahead. It might work, but it is super risky and could lose you the game outright.
Once again, protoss may figure out how to harass the third, but its not going to be with the main army. That thing needs to stay home.
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On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments?
What evidence do you have that they cannot adapt to Afterburn tactics? Because that's what you're claiming when you say that it's imbalanced: that they cannot effectively adapt to it.
Just because someone loses to something doesn't mean that there wasn't a way for them to deal with it.
People aren't saying "the game is fine." People are saying "stop jumping the gun at balance; give it time for actual evidence to emerge." What you put forth is not evidence; it's your own gut reaction to people losing to something you don't think they should be losing to.
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Its too soon.
Half of you havent even gotten out of the lower leagues. Its like listening to a fat person talk about weight loss.
And the good zergs sure spotted those medvacs just fine.
too soon folks... too soon
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On March 18 2013 23:39 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:29 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:25 ThirdDegree wrote: I would actually like to see a change to the medivac speed. Maybe severely lower it's turning acceleration while boosting so you can't just zip all over the place. I don't think it needs a nerf for balance reasons, but I like the idea of risk vs reward. As of now if you are paying attention to drops, you can dance in and out with no risk at all. I always thought it was awesome in a pvt when you'd see stalkers sort of hiding and wait for the medivac to get in to the base before blinking in and sniping it. Without the risk, it sort of loses some excitement for me. I have been thinking this as well. I don’t think it would be a huge different to how the unit is used, but would make it so the other races could punish sloppy use of the boost. Plus it just makes sense that the medicvac would control differently while boosted. So instead of charging in, seeing a group of stalkers and zipping out with only taking one shot; the medivac might take 5-7 shots before escaping. "Instead of the drop being useful once again, let's bring it back to WoL standards!" 5-7 shots kills a medivac btw. It's not proven to be broken yet, and everybody clamoring for changes at this point is stupid.
Oh my bad, I forgot that, 2-3 shot then. As I said earlier, I don’t want the ability nerfed, I just want to be able to deal with it with micro. I will take anything they give me. Nerf blink and make it come earlier. Or make the medivacs control a little different so I can out position them. The ability is awesome, I just want to have the chance to be as awesome to deal with it.
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I play terran so this is mainly from a spectator-perspective but protoss just feels hopelessly limited. Perhaps people will come up with stuff but I feel like the mothership core should have an added harassfunction in TvP. My suggestion would be to make it so that recall only covers a couple of units or perhaps only gateway units or something like that as a drawback but should be instant as an added benefit. That way you can do more of a harass-type attack with a couple of units and a msc and then recall home if need be.
I could also easily see some cool later-game upgrades for the msc such as teleportation and such (with some type of limit so it doesnt get imba).
Anything to break the protoss defend-defend-defend-defend into deathball or all-in style.
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On March 18 2013 23:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:39 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 23:29 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:25 ThirdDegree wrote: I would actually like to see a change to the medivac speed. Maybe severely lower it's turning acceleration while boosting so you can't just zip all over the place. I don't think it needs a nerf for balance reasons, but I like the idea of risk vs reward. As of now if you are paying attention to drops, you can dance in and out with no risk at all. I always thought it was awesome in a pvt when you'd see stalkers sort of hiding and wait for the medivac to get in to the base before blinking in and sniping it. Without the risk, it sort of loses some excitement for me. I have been thinking this as well. I don’t think it would be a huge different to how the unit is used, but would make it so the other races could punish sloppy use of the boost. Plus it just makes sense that the medicvac would control differently while boosted. So instead of charging in, seeing a group of stalkers and zipping out with only taking one shot; the medivac might take 5-7 shots before escaping. "Instead of the drop being useful once again, let's bring it back to WoL standards!" 5-7 shots kills a medivac btw. It's not proven to be broken yet, and everybody clamoring for changes at this point is stupid. Oh my bad, I forgot that, 2-3 shot then. As I said earlier, I don’t want the ability nerfed, I just want to be able to deal with it with micro. I will take anything they give me. Nerf blink and make it come earlier. Or make the medivacs control a little different so I can out position them. The ability is awesome, I just want to have the chance to be as awesome to deal with it. Whoops, I can't do math this morning. 5-7 shots don't kill medivacs, but still take out most of their health. 4-5 stalkers will kill a medivac before it can go over the stalkers boosted. Considering 1 drop is worth at least 500 minerals and 100 gas in investment and army size, I would expect something roughly as costly to nullify them. This is in contrast to WoL, where 3 stalkers would dissuade a double drop...
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I see some of the major things not even being adressed.
The following issues I have recognized (from my personal point of view) in hots so far. So let me start with what has been discussed already.
Terran dropships: a) possibility to always load up all the bio and carry it away safely from the battlefield as soon as the terran recognizes inferiority in the battle. Without any major drawbacks this allows the terran to just move out and to take big risks without being punished for a mistake there. b) drop play; at the high skill tiers where terrans have the mechanics/skill and from now on will even more focus on multi location drops it is extremely unbalanced what it takes to defend these multi location drops (simultaniously) compared to what it takes to execute these. Especiall for PvT I see a major imbalance issue coming there due to the fact that terrans can just threaten all possible locations at the same time and a protoss army seems weaker and more abuseable the more it splits up. This is in fact quite abuseable especially the more terrans get used to multi dropship execution. And it is too easy to force a simple mistake of the opponent that results instantly into a terran win. (this also applies, but with a bit lesser weight, to ZvT). It is just too easy to force the opponent to split up all his army to defend 3-4 drop spots and then just boostdrop a major part of carried stuff back into the middle and attack one of these weak spots with split up armies with almost the entire force and crush it easily. It will almost result automatically in several situations into attacks that are impossible to defend against. I estimate that terran will benefit more from this imbalance the more time passes as they learn even more how to abuse and execute it perfectly while the opponent can in no way know what is the right decision to react to this at all and therefore will definitely do mistakes that in many times instantly loses him the game. --- make it only usable once per dropship in total lifetime (but maybe extend the duration of effect a little).
Terran Mines: a)absolutely misdesigned unit. Problem basically in TvZ. It can deny every possible harassment early to midgame with ease making it almost impossible to attack the terran without taking big risks. Boring microless unit. Once placed it takes extraordinary amounts of efforts to spot and kill all of those mines that have the costs of a single roach and can be easily replaced. While it does not only deny any early harassment it also continues to the midgame and is perfect against any air harassment (oracle, mutalisk, fenix). It is basically a game of luck to fly to the terran base as you take big losses without any chance to dodge when you try to harass the terran (hey I built all those mutalisk/fenix but I can't use them cause there might be 2 mines instantly killing half of my army). b) mines in common battles: absolutely imbalanced to put 2-3 mines behind an attack and when you defend against these attacks the terran retreats 2-3 screen cm and pulls you into these mines that make you lose dozens of zealots/zerglings and instantly lose the game. c) mines with dropships. Absolutely ridiculous how easy it is to do capital damage with almost no effort. --- make (at least 2 of these 3 things) mines undropable, make mines only target ground, decrease mines splash damage alot and increase mines single target damage (this is what you want, stronger vs protoss units) noone wants an alround mine that can deny every enemy harass with minimal efforts and big potential damage to the harasser.
Protoss mothership core: a)denies any ZvP harass in early game. Roach play to pressure the protoss wall has become obsolete without going totally all in (and the mothership doesnt help much vs total all ins with mass roach/ling, mass ling/bane or anything similar). It will just shoot down slowly any slow roach that is trying to make its way over the whole map. It once more forces the zerg into inactivity and decreases the variation of viable opening styles. It results in more boring 15min no rush games (if the protoss opts for) where 4 Base protoss deathball facerolls Zergarmy after 20-25 minutes. b) allows more easy all ins for the protoss: in the opposite the MSC supports greatly all protoss all in strategies. 4 Gate with core even more hard to defend, 6 Gate even more hard to defend, sentry immortal all in even more hard to defend. One base blink stalker does not even need an obs anymore, etc. c) zero risk/100%chance protoss harassment. just make a major attack and beam back once damage is done without taking the risks of losing a single unit. ---make mothership core teleport only 85% of units randomly (it leaves behind 1-2 out of 10 units randomly), make mothership core available later in the game, e.g. it requires council.
Protoss Oracle: I am not sure about this unit, why does it have to be that strong and expensive? I can't say much about this unit yet but it seems for me too game deciding in its current state in many situations --- reduce oracles building costs alot, decrease oracles damage alot, maybe introduce some other changes when doing this (another skill, more hitpoints, whatever).
Skytoss: You say people don't dodge the charge up voidrays correctly yet. What difference does it make in battle if you fight them charged up or wait until they charge up while targeting your building and increase their overall damage therefore? General Problem of skytoss: Zerg corruptor is armored and as one of the very few viable things of zerg vs air it just doesnt do its job correctly anymore. --- make corruptor light instead of armored (then ghosts gonna be a problem tho), increase building time of void rays, increase protoss air upgrade costs (contrary to the reduction of the protoss ground upgrade costs) to take into account its strength.
Zerg Viper: Seems to have too heavy impact into the battle in army vs army situations. --- Cloud: reduce time of effect to 50%, reduce cost of energy to 75%
Zerg Mutalisk: Seems too strong in certain situations (especially when taking into account my balance advices). Especially in ZvZ it is too much mutalisk based but also in the other matchups mutalisks seem way too strong in certain situations. --- increase costs of mutalisk to 125/100
Zerg Swarmhost: Unit seems actually well balanced. I don't like it still as it can't help you getting back from behind positions but greatly supports you in situations where you have the lead. Therefore totally fail designed (just as widow mines). Should be just removed from the game and replaced with aynthing else more suitable!
These are my current thoughts. The terran dropship, terran widow mine, protoss mothership core and protoss skytoss things are most urgent in my point of view.
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too much whining....
Speedvacs are a good thing for the game, this is exactly what sc2 needs, more action packed high apm units.
I play Z btw, not T so no bias here.
Also, even if certain things are OP, it really doesn't affect 99.9% of us here. We suck compared to those pros.
Enjoyed the games as I always do, but even more so.
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If medivas speed boost was energy based they could boost again immediatly after boosting first and they would be a lot harder to feedback. So if the energy cost is low enough it is not a nerf. It then would also mean that there is a point in upgrading cadeceus reactor. I somehow feel design wise it is better not to have cooldown abilities on a unit that also has energy and making it energy based would lead to more interessting gameplay.
Also the battlehelion should be changed in some way to make more sense. The unit has to unintuitive rules.
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I wonder why people havent whined about oracle so much. That unit is the definition of op. Guaranteed damage and op allins.
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Just make it so that Medvacs cannot load/unload while afterburner is activated, problem solved, action preserved.
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On March 18 2013 22:19 Arco wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 20:19 AxionSteel wrote:On March 18 2013 11:59 AIKfans87 wrote:On March 18 2013 11:46 Infinite Loop wrote: This thread makes my head hurt.
I can't believe you all think you are such experts in game balance and design.
One tournament surely doesn't tell us everything we need to know about balance? From what I saw of MLG it was one of the most action packed and exciting tournaments I have seen in a long time. Yet everyone wants nerfs after one freaking tournament, give it some time to see how the game and new strategy's evolve.
In my opinion the Zerg and Protoss bias in the casting also has a lot to do with this problem we're having at the moment. So many balance complaints and subtle and also not so subtle stabs at the new terran units. I really believe casters should keep out of balance while casting especially when they have massive bias towards their own race. For better or worse so many people listen to the casters opinions and this seems to have a negative effect on the mindset of viewers.
I'm ranting I know but I'm honestly so sad/annoyed at the way the community handles themselves.
So it wasn't only me who got annoyed of all bias in the casting. No it was awful. Day9 was going on and on about how outrageously strong Hellbats were, when hardly anyone was even making them, and when they were made they were not deciding factors in the game. admittedly, even as a terran, the medivac boost made me cringe reguarly although after we got to the quarter finals, the standard of play shot up through the roof and we got so many awesome games I dunno what to think now. Definitely would wait a while before changing mines, though. Congratulations on getting trolled by Day[9], who has been doing this forever. I wish people would still know what "troll" means.
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On March 19 2013 00:29 Luolis wrote: I wonder why people havent whined about oracle so much. That unit is the definition of op. Guaranteed damage and op allins.
The definition of awesome and made of candy glass and protoss dreams. I am glad that protoss has a unit people fear, but also costs a ton of gas. All-ins come before solid, standard play, since standard play is based around dealing with all ins.
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On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac.
I agree, I think the medivac could use a much longer cooldown of the afterburners (possibly combined with a longer duration of the afterburners) so that terrans can either (a) drop into the opponents base very fast or (b) retreat from their opponents base very fast, but not both. Both sounds a bit too strong to me, though I don't have the necessary skills to judge this, just my opinion.
Also, one question: does an unburrowed widow mine has the same attack priority than any normal attacking unit? I watched Goody going mass widow mines recently and he could comfortably enclose the zerg army with a huge amount of widow mines while they were distracted with attacking the tank / thor, ignoring the widow mines in close proximity.
edit: or mostly ignoring, I cannot remember in exact detail. Though the units attacking the widow mines could've just been out of range to attack the other parts of the mech army.
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On March 19 2013 00:37 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. I agree, I think the medivac could use a much longer cooldown of the afterburners (possibly combined with a longer duration of the afterburners) so that terrans can either (a) drop into the opponents base very fast or (b) retreat from their opponents base very fast, but not both. Both sounds a bit too strong to me, though I don't have the necessary skills to judge this, just my opinion. Also, one question: does an unburrowed widow mine has the same attack priority than any normal attacking unit? I watched Goody going mass widow mines recently and he could comfortably enclose the zerg army with a huge amount of widow mines while they were distracted with attacking the tank / thor, ignoring the widow mines in close proximity. edit: or mostly ignoring, I cannot remember in exact detail. Though the units attacking the widow mines could've just been out of range to attack the other parts of the mech army.
Widow mines have a 19 attack priority, which means they don’t pull “agro” over other attacking units. Units treat them like moving workers and don’t fire on them.
I personally think Blizzard has a ton of options if they decide to ton down the medivac boost. I think a longer cool down would be the easiest and it should be a pretty reasonable amount of time. 20 seconds isn’t even one production cycle for any race. If a player scares off one drop, they should feel that they don’t have to deal with that drop again for a reasonable period of time.
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First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW.
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On March 19 2013 00:29 Luolis wrote: I wonder why people havent whined about oracle so much. That unit is the definition of op. Guaranteed damage and op allins. Because it just forces you to play more defensively. If you loose to it, in general you were cutting corner somewhere. Still think the unit can be improved so it is better after the opponent has defended against it at the cost of the insane worker kill speed.
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On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply!
Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though).
On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design.
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On March 19 2013 00:29 Luolis wrote: I wonder why people havent whined about oracle so much. That unit is the definition of op. Guaranteed damage and op allins.
ok then to shock you, blizzard say they wanna buff it but cant do it because its the master vs bronce problem
oracle may be super strong bronce-diamond but after master its a shituseless unit (jaeh i know mc did well with it mlg but enemys ignored you must go gas first as terran)
so blizzard think about buffing them without hurting lower levels to much guaranteed is there nothing if you play a terran who go 1gas opening it can be your oracles do nothing and then you nearly lost the game
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On March 18 2013 23:55 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:47 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:39 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 23:29 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:25 ThirdDegree wrote: I would actually like to see a change to the medivac speed. Maybe severely lower it's turning acceleration while boosting so you can't just zip all over the place. I don't think it needs a nerf for balance reasons, but I like the idea of risk vs reward. As of now if you are paying attention to drops, you can dance in and out with no risk at all. I always thought it was awesome in a pvt when you'd see stalkers sort of hiding and wait for the medivac to get in to the base before blinking in and sniping it. Without the risk, it sort of loses some excitement for me. I have been thinking this as well. I don’t think it would be a huge different to how the unit is used, but would make it so the other races could punish sloppy use of the boost. Plus it just makes sense that the medicvac would control differently while boosted. So instead of charging in, seeing a group of stalkers and zipping out with only taking one shot; the medivac might take 5-7 shots before escaping. "Instead of the drop being useful once again, let's bring it back to WoL standards!" 5-7 shots kills a medivac btw. It's not proven to be broken yet, and everybody clamoring for changes at this point is stupid. Oh my bad, I forgot that, 2-3 shot then. As I said earlier, I don’t want the ability nerfed, I just want to be able to deal with it with micro. I will take anything they give me. Nerf blink and make it come earlier. Or make the medivacs control a little different so I can out position them. The ability is awesome, I just want to have the chance to be as awesome to deal with it. Whoops, I can't do math this morning. 5-7 shots don't kill medivacs, but still take out most of their health. 4-5 stalkers will kill a medivac before it can go over the stalkers boosted. Considering 1 drop is worth at least 500 minerals and 100 gas in investment and army size, I would expect something roughly as costly to nullify them. This is in contrast to WoL, where 3 stalkers would dissuade a double drop...
My original point was not a balance issue. I personally think the speedivacs work fine now, I just like the added risk during drops from a spectator standpoint. It makes it a lot more tense to watch. When I see the medivacs speed towards a base, and then just turn around at the last minute, I get it's a strategic move that the dropper doesn't want to risk it, but as a spectator I like that little bit of tension of "is he going to go for it?" No balance whine intended.
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Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design.
Why so much hate ? stupid desgin and we spend $$$ to play ? Are we stupid ?
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Seems reasonable enough. Good to see that they haven't made any knee jerk responses.
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On March 19 2013 00:29 Luolis wrote: I wonder why people havent whined about oracle so much. That unit is the definition of op. Guaranteed damage and op allins.
Guaranteed damage? What do you mean?
I could also send my first 6 workers to the opponents base, they are also guaranteed to do damage. Doesn't mean that it's an OP strategy.
I like Oracles a lot.
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On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases.
The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design.
Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM.
You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time.
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Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8197652564
David Kim: HoTS Thoughts 3/18/2013
Just wanted to let you know that our design team is watching every major match carefully and will continue doing so.
Some things we're noticing are:
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move.
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On March 19 2013 00:12 LSN wrote:
--- make corruptor light instead of armored (then ghosts gonna be a problem tho)
This would make the Phoenixes crush both Mutalisks and Corruptors, bad idea.
I think they should rather modify the Void Ray ability. They could test things so that, for example, when the Prismatic Alignment is active, the Void Rays become much much slower and wouldn't be able to escape or chase units. Well, it should be risky for the Protoss to activate this ability in some situations. I think it's true for all units, the game is entertaining when a strat is both powerful and risky, depending on situations.
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On March 19 2013 01:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8197652564David Kim: HoTS Thoughts 3/18/2013 Show nested quote +Just wanted to let you know that our design team is watching every major match carefully and will continue doing so.
Some things we're noticing are:
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move. Fair enough, good post by D.Kim
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On March 19 2013 01:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8197652564David Kim: HoTS Thoughts 3/18/2013 Show nested quote +Just wanted to let you know that our design team is watching every major match carefully and will continue doing so.
Some things we're noticing are:
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move. Awesome, I love DK for this. I hope they consider boosting the other races agressive abilities if it is necessary, rather than nerfing medivacs. More scouting, more agression and less turtling. Give protoss cheaper warp prisim speed out of the cyber core and zerg cheaper drops. Make the best defense a good offense.
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I just had a random idea, maybe it's totally wrong, but why not make the boost forcing the medivacs to go in a straight line & can't drop/pick units? They will still be very powerful but more risky if you do it blindly and it would require more skill to be able to drop exactly where you want.
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After watching the whole thing, I can honestly say I am excited for the direction Sc2 is going for the first time. The action especially on day 3 was just amazing to watch. As I mentioned earlier, I am hesitant to call a balance issue yet given the extreme lack of diversity on tactics used. Some things feel strong, some things feel weak. However the fact remains is HoTS is far far from figured out. My only concern is that certain tactics seem to require a Far far higher skill level to defeat than they do to execute. While this may not affect the pros, it could lead to certain tactics just curbstomping people on the ladder.
That all said, I am personally excited to see up and coming competitions and watch the metagame develop. I expect there will be sweeping changes over the next few months and hope blizzard refrains from any changes until things are better understood. Those were just Fantastic matches to watch.
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I recent just had a bit of an epiphany regarding Medivacs. personally, I see nothing wrong with the Medivac speed upgrade, to me, it adds more utility to an already great unit. but watching games, expecially TvP, I see the ability being overly abused. watching medivacs pop afterburner and be able to follow and heal stimmed bio seemed overly strong vs Protoss, in WoL, stimmed bio stutter stepping and retreating would cause the medivacs to lag behind, allowing protoss units to slowly pick off the medivacs. something that rarely happens in HotS.
So, the idea I wanted to bring into question, is if during the afterburner activation, and even perhaps during it's cooldown, should the medivac be able to continue it's healing capabilities? I feel that allowing the medivac to move fast, but not heal, would really improve the risk/reward aspect to this ability. and create some interesting situations and decisions for both players.
Forgive me if this concept has been brought up before.
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On March 19 2013 01:52 nojok wrote: I just had a random idea, maybe it's totally wrong, but why not make the boost forcing the medivacs to go in a straight line & can't drop/pick units? They will still be very powerful but more risky if you do it blindly and it would require more skill to be able to drop exactly where you want.
Interesting idea.
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On March 18 2013 21:30 Infinite Loop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 20:12 Ercster wrote: For the medivac boost, I think they should increase the cooldown time for it (from 20 seconds to 40), then you can't boost in, drop, do damage, and boost out. You have to decide beforehand if you want to use it to get in or save it for when you leave. It would make static defense better against the drops.
For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these): Increase their cost Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown
I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s.
Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units. What credentials do you have to suggest these changes to this game? How many games of HOTS have you seen professionally played to determine these changes, do you think that's enough? What kind of stupid fucking logic is that? Why do I need to have "credentials" in order to give my opinion? That's right, I don't.
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On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced.
Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with.
On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish".
Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units.
The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them.
The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons.
P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough.
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On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough.
Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters.
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On March 19 2013 01:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8197652564David Kim: HoTS Thoughts 3/18/2013 Just wanted to let you know that our design team is watching every major match carefully and will continue doing so.
Some things we're noticing are:
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move. Awesome, I love DK for this. I hope they consider boosting the other races agressive abilities if it is necessary, rather than nerfing medivacs. More scouting, more agression and less turtling. Give protoss cheaper warp prisim speed out of the cyber core and zerg cheaper drops. Make the best defense a good offense.
Great stuff by Blizzard. I was hoping they would leave the game alone for a while, rather than nerf-jerk in response to the community. Our tendency to whine and give our personal opinions credence means that we should usually be ignored.
As to solutions to problems, if there are real problems, I have no idea. My personal wish for the longest time has been a slightly buffed Stalker (i.e. more Dragoon like in its effect). But, more seriously, I am happy to leave it to Browder and Kim.
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On March 19 2013 02:59 Ercster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 21:30 Infinite Loop wrote:On March 18 2013 20:12 Ercster wrote: For the medivac boost, I think they should increase the cooldown time for it (from 20 seconds to 40), then you can't boost in, drop, do damage, and boost out. You have to decide beforehand if you want to use it to get in or save it for when you leave. It would make static defense better against the drops.
For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these): Increase their cost Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown
I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s.
Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units. What credentials do you have to suggest these changes to this game? How many games of HOTS have you seen professionally played to determine these changes, do you think that's enough? What kind of stupid fucking logic is that? Why do I need to have "credentials" in order to give my opinion? That's right, I don't.
Do you want to answer the second question.
You act like you know so much about this game and I'm only trying to figure out people like you. You propose such specific changes and act like you know so much that's all.
And I guess you are a diamond ish Zerg is that correct?
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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 09:29 Infinite Loop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 02:59 Ercster wrote:On March 18 2013 21:30 Infinite Loop wrote:On March 18 2013 20:12 Ercster wrote: For the medivac boost, I think they should increase the cooldown time for it (from 20 seconds to 40), then you can't boost in, drop, do damage, and boost out. You have to decide beforehand if you want to use it to get in or save it for when you leave. It would make static defense better against the drops.
For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these): Increase their cost Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown
I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s.
Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units. What credentials do you have to suggest these changes to this game? How many games of HOTS have you seen professionally played to determine these changes, do you think that's enough? What kind of stupid fucking logic is that? Why do I need to have "credentials" in order to give my opinion? That's right, I don't. Do you want to answer the second question. You act like you know so much about this game and I'm only trying to figure out people like you. You propose such specific changes and act like you know so much that's all. And I guess you are a diamond ish Zerg is that correct?
He didn't give an opinion, he made statements of fact and then called it his opinion. "Corrupters need a buff" is a statement of fact that is either right or wrong.
The relevant question here is why anyone should care what he thinks or says. The answer is that either he has credentials of some kind that are sufficient to convince people that he is an authority on the subject, or he has an extremely well laid out argument that explains, step by step, why these changes are good and why other solutions aren't better. If he has neither of these things, then he isn't saying anything useful or worthwhile, just like almost everyone under the sun does on a regular basis. You can either ignore him or discuss it with him, but demanding credentials when he didn't offer any is kind of useless. If he had them, he probably would have offered them in some form. If we demanded credentials from every person who posted in any thread ever, these forums would be nothing but people with credentials discussing things and everyone else exclusively reading or asking questions that we hope they would answer.
Some people might like it that way, but it doesn't make for a very pleasant community for your average person.
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I feel so sorry for terrans.
After such a long time being so weak towards the end of WoL, now they finally get a decent buff in the form of medivacs.....and already people are complaining about it....oh Terrans..
If there is no afterburner, what does Terran have? Hellbats, I rarely saw them in IEM and latest MLG. WM is too random, damaging friendly units also.... and smart people can easily bait WM shots....
If they take out afterburners, I would say 80%+ of terrans will simply stop SC2 altogether or switch races
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote: Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok.
The build up to the finals was frustrating. The medivac speed boost has no justification. Drops have always been powerful even in WoL. However, now they have little to no risk for such a powerful maneuver. I would say a decrease in the health of the medivac is in order.
I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
The problem with terran in SC2 has always been blizzard desperate need to make every terran unit extremely versatile. For a long time in WoL the reaper was the only bad unit the race had.
Because terran has to be well rounded because it's very hard to tech switch into something completely different. When a terran goes mech, they just go mech, they don't scout their opponent then decide to make mech. Sometimes, but it's very rare that a terran will react to an opponents build as opposed to just doing what the hell they want, and that's fine, their race is built that way. Obviously good terrans scout and react, but still, a terran who goes 3/3 bio won't stop making marines because he sees infestors because it's not easy to just make 3/3 air units out of nowhere.
On March 18 2013 22:41 Crisium wrote: I don't like the Mutalisk changes.
Mutalisks got a slight speed boost, but more importantly heal 3x as fast as in WoL (and compared to any other Zerg unit). So Muta harass is improved since they take less damage from being quicker, and heal so fast as to almost negate any pot shots you manage to hit before they flee. In BW and WoL, you could always value every single extra turret or marine shot you got on a Mutalisk because you knew they would get worn down and you would eventually defeat them. Now they just shrug off a few hits like nothing. Even Widow Mine splash damage is hardly an issue. A Zerg unit heals 13hp pretty fast. That's the equivalent of a Muta healing about 40.
Keep in mind the other improved threats out there. Widow mines, Hunker Seeker Missile improved, Marines with better Medivacs, Phoenix speed and range buff, cheaper DT shrine meaning more obtainable Archons, mass recall to bring an army back to defend mutas and photon overcharge.
I think muta buff is completely reasonable because WoL was a turtle fest for zerg, there was no reason to build mutas if you could turtle your way to a 20 min victory with BL/infestor. With the new units in HotS, why would zerg do anything different? well they can, because now mutas are buffed so they don't have to rely on BL/infestor to win games, it gives power back to muta builds which were always exciting to watch.
Let's continue to watch and see how HotS progresses, there is no use whining about anything until we see more games, and even then, in BW when something was imba it had to be figured out, QQ'ing and hoping blizzard would patch was not an option back then.
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The generall approach to HotS balance as compared to WoL has been giving each race some really powerful harass options, and some really powerful anti-harass options. So far, I like the results.
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On March 19 2013 10:07 Swordland wrote: I feel so sorry for terrans.
After such a long time being so weak towards the end of WoL, now they finally get a decent buff in the form of medivacs.....and already people are complaining about it....oh Terrans..
If there is no afterburner, what does Terran have? Hellbats, I rarely saw them in IEM and latest MLG. WM is too random, damaging friendly units also.... and smart people can easily bait WM shots....
If they take out afterburners, I would say 80%+ of terrans will simply stop SC2 altogether or switch races
I don't think afterburners will ever get totally scrapped because of things like the muta speed buff. You simply can't give all the buffs the other races got and expect Terran to keep up without something else. I think it's a matter of figuring out what the something else has to be, but at this point we're simply seeing an issue of something that is easy to use offensively and defending against it is going to take some time.
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Everyone QQing about medivac speed boost...how about we let the pros figure it out in the next 3 or 4 months or so. Often drop plays become so strong when the zerg or protoss completely ignore static defense. Maybe if they start making more static D, it might change? Who knows. Broodwar was a game of static D and constant aggression, iirc.
The first MLG HotS champion was a zerg, after all.
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On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough.
I was unaware the common sense was a substitute for playing the game and allowed you to provide such amazing tips as "build cannons to stop turbo boosted medivacs". All your tips truly show that you barely play or watch the game in any way.
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I got ravaged by drops today but good for them for not giving in to the butthurt people who aren't trying to adapt. I lost to drops but that is because I opened robo even after scouting gas, which was a mistake. I should have opened stargate.
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On March 19 2013 10:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. I was unaware the common sense was a substitute for playing the game and allowed you to provide such amazing tips as "build cannons to stop turbo boosted medivacs". All your tips truly show that you barely play or watch the game in any way. Really, man? Really? You should recognize Rabiator by now, as well as me, and we should recognize you. It's quite obvious we all play and watch the game, even if our suggestions are sometimes crap...
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On March 19 2013 10:02 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 09:29 Infinite Loop wrote:On March 19 2013 02:59 Ercster wrote:On March 18 2013 21:30 Infinite Loop wrote:On March 18 2013 20:12 Ercster wrote: For the medivac boost, I think they should increase the cooldown time for it (from 20 seconds to 40), then you can't boost in, drop, do damage, and boost out. You have to decide beforehand if you want to use it to get in or save it for when you leave. It would make static defense better against the drops.
For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these): Increase their cost Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown
I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s.
Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units. What credentials do you have to suggest these changes to this game? How many games of HOTS have you seen professionally played to determine these changes, do you think that's enough? What kind of stupid fucking logic is that? Why do I need to have "credentials" in order to give my opinion? That's right, I don't. Do you want to answer the second question. You act like you know so much about this game and I'm only trying to figure out people like you. You propose such specific changes and act like you know so much that's all. And I guess you are a diamond ish Zerg is that correct? He didn't give an opinion, he made statements of fact and then called it his opinion. "Corrupters need a buff" is a statement of fact that is either right or wrong. The relevant question here is why anyone should care what he thinks or says. The answer is that either he has credentials of some kind that are sufficient to convince people that he is an authority on the subject, or he has an extremely well laid out argument that explains, step by step, why these changes are good and why other solutions aren't better. If he has neither of these things, then he isn't saying anything useful or worthwhile, just like almost everyone under the sun does on a regular basis. You can either ignore him or discuss it with him, but demanding credentials when he didn't offer any is kind of useless. If he had them, he probably would have offered them in some form. If we demanded credentials from every person who posted in any thread ever, these forums would be nothing but people with credentials discussing things and everyone else exclusively reading or asking questions that we hope they would answer. Some people might like it that way, but it doesn't make for a very pleasant community for your average person.
I think you didn't quite get where I was coming from and that's understandable. I chose him at random of all the people complaining about balance. I really don't understand how people are calling for Nerfs after such few professional games is all and I was frustrated when I asked him those questions. All I wanted was to see where these people are coming from and question why they think they know so much about balance. If you had seen my previous post in this thread my questions might have made more sense.
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On March 05 2013 10:10 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways. And how is that any different than blink?
Blink requires time and resources. You have to choose to incorporate that into your build if you want to use it in a timing. I'd be fine with medivac speed if it were an upgrade. I don't think it should inherently just come with your medivacs.
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I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol
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That's pretty decent I guess, I'm loving this new approach by Blizzard. :D
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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote: I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol
Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten.
People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow.
It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time.
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I'm glad they're not gonna do anything drastic yet. Wait a few more tournaments.
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United States389 Posts
In Korean vs Korean non mirror matchups, Terran had 4 wins, Toss 3 wins, Zerg 4 wins. Looking at wins where Koreans beat foreigners is kind of silly I think. Also, the games were very much more fun than WOL, that I think is fairly indisputable.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 11:36 Iron_ wrote: In Korean vs Korean non mirror matchups, Terran had 4 wins, Toss 3 wins, Zerg 4 wins. Looking at wins where Koreans beat foreigners is kind of silly I think. Also, the games were very much more fun than WOL, that I think is fairly indisputable.
The game is new, WoL games were crazy wonky at first and were very fun and interesting before people figured anything out too. This time we have people who have all the experience of WoL practice with some major changes thrown in. Of course the games are gonna look awesome at first, regardless of how it will be in the long run.
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On March 18 2013 15:33 Topzerg wrote: Balance is a joke and zerg matchups are boring.
ZvT and ZvP is unplayable late game. ZvZ is mutas vs mutas 99% of the time. Back to WoL til they fix the bullshit! Zerg matchups are boring? Talk about bias. Life played incredible ZvX games in the mlg. zerg always need more time to figure things out, I suggest you guys cut the balance whining, the game isn't even out for a week. it's like no matter what blizz and david kim do you guys arent satisfied. Also, it blows my mind that someone would call hots zerg boring right after WoL finished with the most imbalanced and boring games we've ever seen.
Your post would apply more to late WoL. Observe: Balance is a joke an zerg matchups are boring.
TvZ and PvZ is unplayable late game. ZvZ is infestors vs infestors 99% of the time. Now in hots they've fixed the bullshit!
I don't know what kind of warped mind prefers watching infestor bl rape opponents every other game.
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On March 19 2013 11:33 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote: I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten. People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow. It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time. Don't forget about the random calls for widow mine nerfs. There seems to be a lot of calls to nerf Terran outside the medivac, and it looks like Terran is just the community punching bag once again. You'd think after 9 months of ZvZ (which people hated BEFORE infestor-fest) people would be happy for change, but it went from a level of 5/10 to a 9/10 balance complaint strength from Zerg to Terran, and after just 1 event. You even have casters halfway through the event calling preemptive nerfs. The Terran hate is strong in the community, don't ever think otherwise.
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History repeating itself. Terran being figured out faster than the other 2 races, despite being the most flexible race. Zerg remains the race with the most hidden potential, which hadn't nearly been figured out at the end of WoL, and now they're getting new toys. Protoss derp derp as always.
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range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesen't mean it's balanced.
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Does anyone think blizzard would say "we're seeing some nice conservative and safe play." At least right now it seems opposed to their plans for HOTS. I feel like if the game isn't always being sped up they aren't satisfied.
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On March 19 2013 09:29 Infinite Loop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 02:59 Ercster wrote:On March 18 2013 21:30 Infinite Loop wrote:On March 18 2013 20:12 Ercster wrote: For the medivac boost, I think they should increase the cooldown time for it (from 20 seconds to 40), then you can't boost in, drop, do damage, and boost out. You have to decide beforehand if you want to use it to get in or save it for when you leave. It would make static defense better against the drops.
For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these): Increase their cost Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown
I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s.
Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units. What credentials do you have to suggest these changes to this game? How many games of HOTS have you seen professionally played to determine these changes, do you think that's enough? What kind of stupid fucking logic is that? Why do I need to have "credentials" in order to give my opinion? That's right, I don't. Do you want to answer the second question. You act like you know so much about this game and I'm only trying to figure out people like you. You propose such specific changes and act like you know so much that's all. And I guess you are a diamond ish Zerg is that correct? I act like I have an opinion and am expressing it. I didn't say that those needed to be the fixes (minus the corrupters, which I did also say "it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered), I said I think these should be fixed. It isn't me displaying extensive knowledge about the game, rather observed information from my own games, player streams, and tournaments. Also, letting people know my in-game skill can only bring negativity to the conversation, so I choose to leave it out for that reason. As for my race, I play Protoss and Zerg. I get bored playing the same race constantly, so I switch between the 2 regularly (although, I probably play more Zerg than Protoss).
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The core problem with Protoss in all facets was, and still is, their immobility. Mid / late game Protoss has extremely limited ways to defend multiple locations at once against drops or multi-pronged attacks. The mothership core did not solve the problem and neither does the oracle. Warp-ins are not enough to defend 2+ medivac drops and static defense is easily circumvented on most maps or is ineffective because marauders can kill cannons with no losses with medivac support.
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On March 05 2013 09:21 opterown wrote: cue forum warriors balance whining and reverse-balance whining! haha i think it is too early to say anything, myself
IMO devs should wait a month or two between balance patches (unless something is like super crazy wrong cough*5 rax reapers*cough). Gives the players time to truly explore the units and figure out exactly how they work. Otherwise players are relying on both their skill as a player and the skill of the developer.
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On March 19 2013 11:42 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:36 Iron_ wrote: In Korean vs Korean non mirror matchups, Terran had 4 wins, Toss 3 wins, Zerg 4 wins. Looking at wins where Koreans beat foreigners is kind of silly I think. Also, the games were very much more fun than WOL, that I think is fairly indisputable. The game is new, WoL games were crazy wonky at first and were very fun and interesting before people figured anything out too. This time we have people who have all the experience of WoL practice with some major changes thrown in. Of course the games are gonna look awesome at first, regardless of how it will be in the long run.
Yeah, that is a fair point. Although, the initial maps on WOL were tiny which was a strong incentive to aggressive one base play. In HOTS, thus far, we see that trend irrespective of the map. Of course, the other reason, apart from generally taking advantage of a game with broader horizons, is the fatigue effect from a more or less figured out WOL (i.e. going a little crazy and trying out all kinds of mad and fun stuff in a way that was either not possible in WOL or was easily punished).
Whether this trend continues is, as you say, a matter for the long run.
Of course, if it does not, there is always LOTV.
Personally, though, I enjoyed watching MLG. It is the most fun watching SC2 I have had in a long time. It has made me think of buying and playing HOTS - something I decided against as I thought I would not have the time this year. I'll only be able to play sem-regularly, but I figure I may be able to mess about in bronze/silver, take advantage of unranked games, and indulge in some 2v2 with an old friend with whom I used to do regular 2v2 in WOL (oh, and the campaign too, of course).
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On March 19 2013 11:13 Thorrissey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:10 forsooth wrote:On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways. And how is that any different than blink? Blink requires time and resources. You have to choose to incorporate that into your build if you want to use it in a timing. I'd be fine with medivac speed if it were an upgrade. I don't think it should inherently just come with your medivacs. ^Thank you for trying to reason with him, and for providing some explanation.
The amount of stupidity in this forum is overwhelming. So much whine and few well explained arguments. I just read 20 posts about how Blink is directly comparable to Medvac Afterburner. They are extremely different abilities and here are a few reasons why:
Upfront Costs: Blink: In the midgame, twilight is deviation from the "standard" build order (until 1-1 upgrades completed). The cost of blink is the sum of the cost of twilight + upgrade, and the time-cost of blink is the build time of twilight + research time. Medvac Afterburner: Arguably costs starport + starport build time (Arguable since starport is standard in midgame whether going bio or mech).
Returns: Blink: Can make army extremely more effective, opens up harass potential, but costly in terms of APM. Diminishing returns in late game. Afterburners: Extremely effective in all stages of game, almost no APM cost (Queue drop, ignite afterburners, watch drop, ignite afterburner + click return path, roughly same APM cost as medvacs from WoL).
So for those of you that think you can compare Blink to Afterburners, did you consider A) The monetary or temporal costs? B) The extreme disparity in terms of APM required to use either ability?
Regardless of all that pointless discussion I don't think anything is OP (at least yet). Ignite afterburners are good for the game, likewise the oracle. I like that they are trying to expand all races harass potential however I wish they would revise the nydus worm
Why doesn't everyone just calm down for a little bit and let blizzard get good sample sets? No need to grab the pitchforks and demand the Nerf Hammer just because you lose to a strategy frequently. Blizzard will quickly detect dominant strategies from high level play. If you are frequently losing to the same strategies well guess what, you either A) Aren't adjusting your strategy properly or learning from mistakes, or B) Are playing better opponents than you.
Chill balance whiners...
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Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 12:56 MattBarry wrote: Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt.
The issue isn't single drop ships so much, which DT's are great for defense against, but when they do 2-3 dropships or doom drops to a single location. Terran will definitely use a scan for that, and just one DT won't do much even if they somehow don't.
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On March 19 2013 13:03 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 12:56 MattBarry wrote: Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt. The issue isn't single drop ships so much, which DT's are great for defense against, but when they do 2-3 dropships or doom drops to a single location. Terran will definitely use a scan for that, and just one DT won't do much even if they somehow don't. DTs, a few zealots warped in on the fly, and a cannon or two (anymore would be silly and two is pushing it). If you spaced out the DT warp-ins, you could hold it until your stalkers blink in. I think the hard part would be fitting a DT shrine into the build. I'd like to see a huge match up shake up though, so who knows what might happen
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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 13:06 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:03 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 12:56 MattBarry wrote: Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt. The issue isn't single drop ships so much, which DT's are great for defense against, but when they do 2-3 dropships or doom drops to a single location. Terran will definitely use a scan for that, and just one DT won't do much even if they somehow don't. DTs, a few zealots warped in on the fly, and a cannon or two (anymore would be silly and two is pushing it). If you spaced out the DT warp-ins, you could hold it until your stalkers blink in. I think the hard part would be fitting a DT shrine into the build. I'd like to see a huge match up shake up though, so who knows what might happen
It might work, dunno, I don't feel like it's the best answer though. I'm experimenting with oracles to defend drops, if you manage to get it near the dropship before it has more than 1-2 units out, the pulsar beam will kill everything as they unload before they can do anything. Get a phoenix or two with it and they'll kill the dropships.
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On March 19 2013 13:08 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:06 MattBarry wrote:On March 19 2013 13:03 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 12:56 MattBarry wrote: Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt. The issue isn't single drop ships so much, which DT's are great for defense against, but when they do 2-3 dropships or doom drops to a single location. Terran will definitely use a scan for that, and just one DT won't do much even if they somehow don't. DTs, a few zealots warped in on the fly, and a cannon or two (anymore would be silly and two is pushing it). If you spaced out the DT warp-ins, you could hold it until your stalkers blink in. I think the hard part would be fitting a DT shrine into the build. I'd like to see a huge match up shake up though, so who knows what might happen It might work, dunno, I don't feel like it's the best answer though. I'm experimenting with oracles to defend drops, if you manage to get it near the dropship before it has more than 1-2 units out, the pulsar beam will kill everything as they unload before they can do anything. Get a phoenix or two with it and they'll kill the dropships. I'm willing to bet stargate play is the most efficient option. But I'd like to see DTs be put in a position to also be a viable option so there's not just one way to play the matchup. I also really like DTs lore wise and gameplay wise
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On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced.
To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now.
Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:11 MattBarry wrote:On March 19 2013 13:08 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 13:06 MattBarry wrote:On March 19 2013 13:03 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 12:56 MattBarry wrote: Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt. The issue isn't single drop ships so much, which DT's are great for defense against, but when they do 2-3 dropships or doom drops to a single location. Terran will definitely use a scan for that, and just one DT won't do much even if they somehow don't. DTs, a few zealots warped in on the fly, and a cannon or two (anymore would be silly and two is pushing it). If you spaced out the DT warp-ins, you could hold it until your stalkers blink in. I think the hard part would be fitting a DT shrine into the build. I'd like to see a huge match up shake up though, so who knows what might happen It might work, dunno, I don't feel like it's the best answer though. I'm experimenting with oracles to defend drops, if you manage to get it near the dropship before it has more than 1-2 units out, the pulsar beam will kill everything as they unload before they can do anything. Get a phoenix or two with it and they'll kill the dropships. I'm willing to bet stargate play is the most efficient option. But I'd like to see DTs be put in a position to also be a viable option so there's not just one way to play the matchup. I also really like DTs lore wise and gameplay wise
I was really hoping for Blizzard to spread out the new toys more for Protoss. All they did was spam on the Stargate. Was hoping that they would give DT Shrine more love. There's always LOTV ^_^
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On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years.
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On March 19 2013 11:51 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:33 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote: I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten. People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow. It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time. Don't forget about the random calls for widow mine nerfs. There seems to be a lot of calls to nerf Terran outside the medivac, and it looks like Terran is just the community punching bag once again. You'd think after 9 months of ZvZ (which people hated BEFORE infestor-fest) people would be happy for change, but it went from a level of 5/10 to a 9/10 balance complaint strength from Zerg to Terran, and after just 1 event. You even have casters halfway through the event calling preemptive nerfs. The Terran hate is strong in the community, don't ever think otherwise.
Oh please stop being so precious. Terran players are just as bad. For almost the whole of WOL, there was non-stop whining in LR threads about protoss late game from terran whiners. It was sickening that even when TvP was over 60% win rate these people did nothing but complain. I would actually say in terms of balance whining terrans are by far the worst because they tend to whine even when they have the best win rates.
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On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience.
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From the TvZ games in the MLG, most Terrans were opting for MMM + widow mines after some hellion contain, they seem to work well enough in most cases with the exception of ST Life who is simply too gosu. 3 base ling baneling in theory could be defended with this combo as long as T isn't too greedy.
I do think however this strat isn't working out to be far better than Bio-tank, or even some added Hellbats, which T isn't using as much these days due to the Armory requirement. In the Flash / Innovation / Polt vs Life games, I can't help but feel if the Hellions didn't get surrounded by lings, were more active in scouting the huge 3 base lingbane, they could still return to base as Hellbats for defense if it weren't for the armory requirement which isn't such a big deal to get.
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On March 19 2013 13:24 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:51 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 11:33 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote: I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten. People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow. It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time. Don't forget about the random calls for widow mine nerfs. There seems to be a lot of calls to nerf Terran outside the medivac, and it looks like Terran is just the community punching bag once again. You'd think after 9 months of ZvZ (which people hated BEFORE infestor-fest) people would be happy for change, but it went from a level of 5/10 to a 9/10 balance complaint strength from Zerg to Terran, and after just 1 event. You even have casters halfway through the event calling preemptive nerfs. The Terran hate is strong in the community, don't ever think otherwise. Oh please stop being so precious. Terran players are just as bad. For almost the whole of WOL, there was non-stop whining in LR threads about protoss late game from terran whiners. It was sickening that even when TvP was over 60% win rate these people did nothing but complain. I would actually say in terms of balance whining terrans are by far the worst because they tend to whine even when they have the best win rates.
Same can be said about Zerg and Protoss. -_-. The issue that happens is that each race hits the steep part of their races learning curves at diffrent times.
For example Terran in WOL lategame was very hard for players whose Macro was great,but lacked the control and multitasking ability. One miss click and you die to storms/banlings. Or lose all your vikings to Fungal.
For Zergs the learning curve is hit much earlier. Many Zergs have the issue that they just lose straight up because they lack game sense on when they should Drone/Make Army. Lost so many times cuz of this T_T.
Protoss IMO have the latest Learning curve. Protoss is pretty straight forward until you start facing Terrans with good control, and Zergs with actual game sense. Then it feels impossible to ever win -__-.
Truth is that regardless of the race you play. Were all complaining.
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From the standpoint of the viability of SC2 as an esport, you probably need aggression and action. NR15 games are not going to draw viewers. Especially when an esport tournament consists of 10 hr long days full of games lol. Something to consider.
On another note, it somehow feels really satisfying knowing that Blizzard is taking the wait and see and aggression favored approach. It means we can know with certainty that all the current balance whine on forums will have no influence .
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On March 19 2013 13:37 Doodsmack wrote:From the standpoint of the viability of SC2 as an esport, you probably need aggression and action. NR15 games are not going to draw viewers. Especially when an esport tournament consists of 10 hr long days full of games lol. Something to consider. On another note, it somehow feels really satisfying knowing that Blizzard is taking the wait and see and aggression favored approach. It means we can know with certainty that all the current balance whine on forums will have no influence .
Yeah SC2 needed more Attacking and expanding behind it, rather then herp I build base and defense it. U no break ma D. NR15.
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On March 19 2013 13:24 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:51 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 11:33 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote: I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten. People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow. It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time. Don't forget about the random calls for widow mine nerfs. There seems to be a lot of calls to nerf Terran outside the medivac, and it looks like Terran is just the community punching bag once again. You'd think after 9 months of ZvZ (which people hated BEFORE infestor-fest) people would be happy for change, but it went from a level of 5/10 to a 9/10 balance complaint strength from Zerg to Terran, and after just 1 event. You even have casters halfway through the event calling preemptive nerfs. The Terran hate is strong in the community, don't ever think otherwise. Oh please stop being so precious. Terran players are just as bad. For almost the whole of WOL, there was non-stop whining in LR threads about protoss late game from terran whiners. It was sickening that even when TvP was over 60% win rate these people did nothing but complain. I would actually say in terms of balance whining terrans are by far the worst because they tend to whine even when they have the best win rates. There's always a portion that will raise a fuss regardless of winrates. I've personally been critical through most of WoL, mostly because of the lack of Terran foreigners, while there are other Zerg and Protoss lobbies as well.
At the same time, there is a very real stigma against Terran. It's the same stigma that exists about rocks, and it permeates the discussion to protect a large portion to blindly rage against Terran.
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active abilities are fun! viper swarm and pull, medi boost, mother ship core sphere slime thing. yeah sure a lot of zerg units can burrow but it's cooler if they all have something unique from it! a cool active from swarm host. nerf regular hosts but give an active that makes MORE hosts? immediately? oracle is kinda cool but his hi s offensive active not all that interesting....
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I don't really think Terran is that IMBA yet, see Life vs Flash , MLG finals for example. Terrans were very dominant in the tournament but a Zerg won it .
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hmmm i like this stance, good job, blizzard.
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As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 13:35 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:24 tomatriedes wrote:On March 19 2013 11:51 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 11:33 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote: I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten. People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow. It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time. Don't forget about the random calls for widow mine nerfs. There seems to be a lot of calls to nerf Terran outside the medivac, and it looks like Terran is just the community punching bag once again. You'd think after 9 months of ZvZ (which people hated BEFORE infestor-fest) people would be happy for change, but it went from a level of 5/10 to a 9/10 balance complaint strength from Zerg to Terran, and after just 1 event. You even have casters halfway through the event calling preemptive nerfs. The Terran hate is strong in the community, don't ever think otherwise. Oh please stop being so precious. Terran players are just as bad. For almost the whole of WOL, there was non-stop whining in LR threads about protoss late game from terran whiners. It was sickening that even when TvP was over 60% win rate these people did nothing but complain. I would actually say in terms of balance whining terrans are by far the worst because they tend to whine even when they have the best win rates. Same can be said about Zerg and Protoss. -_-. The issue that happens is that each race hits the steep part of their races learning curves at diffrent times. For example Terran in WOL lategame was very hard for players whose Macro was great,but lacked the control and multitasking ability. One miss click and you die to storms/banlings. Or lose all your vikings to Fungal. For Zergs the learning curve is hit much earlier. Many Zergs have the issue that they just lose straight up because they lack game sense on when they should Drone/Make Army. Lost so many times cuz of this T_T. Protoss IMO have the latest Learning curve. Protoss is pretty straight forward until you start facing Terrans with good control, and Zergs with actual game sense. Then it feels impossible to ever win -__-. Truth is that regardless of the race you play. Were all complaining.
Well, it's hard to say protoss players are just as bad as whiners because they were overall, statistically speaking, the worst race in WoL. Lowest overall winrates and what not, shortest period of being dominant, etc.
That said, everyone whines. The day players stop whining about a race is the day that race needs a buff.
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On March 19 2013 13:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:35 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 13:24 tomatriedes wrote:On March 19 2013 11:51 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 11:33 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote: I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten. People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow. It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time. Don't forget about the random calls for widow mine nerfs. There seems to be a lot of calls to nerf Terran outside the medivac, and it looks like Terran is just the community punching bag once again. You'd think after 9 months of ZvZ (which people hated BEFORE infestor-fest) people would be happy for change, but it went from a level of 5/10 to a 9/10 balance complaint strength from Zerg to Terran, and after just 1 event. You even have casters halfway through the event calling preemptive nerfs. The Terran hate is strong in the community, don't ever think otherwise. Oh please stop being so precious. Terran players are just as bad. For almost the whole of WOL, there was non-stop whining in LR threads about protoss late game from terran whiners. It was sickening that even when TvP was over 60% win rate these people did nothing but complain. I would actually say in terms of balance whining terrans are by far the worst because they tend to whine even when they have the best win rates. Same can be said about Zerg and Protoss. -_-. The issue that happens is that each race hits the steep part of their races learning curves at diffrent times. For example Terran in WOL lategame was very hard for players whose Macro was great,but lacked the control and multitasking ability. One miss click and you die to storms/banlings. Or lose all your vikings to Fungal. For Zergs the learning curve is hit much earlier. Many Zergs have the issue that they just lose straight up because they lack game sense on when they should Drone/Make Army. Lost so many times cuz of this T_T. Protoss IMO have the latest Learning curve. Protoss is pretty straight forward until you start facing Terrans with good control, and Zergs with actual game sense. Then it feels impossible to ever win -__-. Truth is that regardless of the race you play. Were all complaining. Well, it's hard to say protoss players are just as bad as whiners because they were overall, statistically speaking, the worst race in WoL. Lowest overall winrates and what not, shortest period of being dominant, etc. That said, everyone whines. The day players stop whining about a race is the day that race needs a buff. I'd argue that it's the day SC2 dies
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Just want to echo everyone in giving a shout out to David Kim for making this post and keeping us aware of what's going on at Blizzard. This is a great example of communication between the players and the designers. David, thanks for doing this and I hope we get to see more of it.
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On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features.
Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void.
On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote: As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit.
On March 19 2013 03:21 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters. Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop.
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Still not liking Protoss gameplay. we're still forced to turtle (minus timings) until we get a few AoE units to support our single-target-tanky deathball.
I'll just say it, I miss my speed shuttles with reavers.
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On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote: As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit.
Maps make a difference in all non Protoss Match-ups. Protoss is only concerned about how safe the 3rd is.
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On March 19 2013 14:14 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote: As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit. Maps make a difference in all non Protoss Match-ups. Protoss is only concerned about how safe the 3rd is. Of course they do ... all I am saying is that Blizzards stupid "mobility mobility above everything and Forcefield" design LIMITS THE MAPMAKERS IN WHAT THEY CAN DO.
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On March 19 2013 10:13 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote: Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok.
The build up to the finals was frustrating. The medivac speed boost has no justification. Drops have always been powerful even in WoL. However, now they have little to no risk for such a powerful maneuver. I would say a decrease in the health of the medivac is in order.
I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
The problem with terran in SC2 has always been blizzard desperate need to make every terran unit extremely versatile. For a long time in WoL the reaper was the only bad unit the race had. Because terran has to be well rounded because it's very hard to tech switch into something completely different. When a terran goes mech, they just go mech, they don't scout their opponent then decide to make mech. Sometimes, but it's very rare that a terran will react to an opponents build as opposed to just doing what the hell they want, and that's fine, their race is built that way. Obviously good terrans scout and react, but still, a terran who goes 3/3 bio won't stop making marines because he sees infestors because it's not easy to just make 3/3 air units out of nowhere. Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 22:41 Crisium wrote: I don't like the Mutalisk changes.
Mutalisks got a slight speed boost, but more importantly heal 3x as fast as in WoL (and compared to any other Zerg unit). So Muta harass is improved since they take less damage from being quicker, and heal so fast as to almost negate any pot shots you manage to hit before they flee. In BW and WoL, you could always value every single extra turret or marine shot you got on a Mutalisk because you knew they would get worn down and you would eventually defeat them. Now they just shrug off a few hits like nothing. Even Widow Mine splash damage is hardly an issue. A Zerg unit heals 13hp pretty fast. That's the equivalent of a Muta healing about 40. Keep in mind the other improved threats out there. Widow mines, Hunker Seeker Missile improved, Marines with better Medivacs, Phoenix speed and range buff, cheaper DT shrine meaning more obtainable Archons, mass recall to bring an army back to defend mutas and photon overcharge. I think muta buff is completely reasonable because WoL was a turtle fest for zerg, there was no reason to build mutas if you could turtle your way to a 20 min victory with BL/infestor. With the new units in HotS, why would zerg do anything different? well they can, because now mutas are buffed so they don't have to rely on BL/infestor to win games, it gives power back to muta builds which were always exciting to watch. Let's continue to watch and see how HotS progresses, there is no use whining about anything until we see more games, and even then, in BW when something was imba it had to be figured out, QQ'ing and hoping blizzard would patch was not an option back then.
the first half of your post got me puzzled. Are you suggesting that other races can switch tech easily? I mean, sure zerg can, but can protoss really change tech easily? Protoss will most of the time, have their army comp be zealot/stalkers, which actually loses to every other "basic unit composition" in the game. Then on top of that protoss has to choose a tech path. Now, deviating from what the protoss originally chose is difficult, isn't it? If i've invested in to colossi, and thermal lance, I can't just put down 2 stargates and pump out pheonixs and be effecitve in time cause he made mutas. Or, i can't go HT, but then suddenly put down 2 robos and pump out immortals cause he went mech. And it's not like zealot/stalker/HT can stand up to an army that HT isn't meant to be an effective counter to. Following your argument, each one of the protoss tech should be "well rounded" against most strategies (i don't want it to be, but following your argument it seems that it should). Terran has scouting options open to them like never before. I mean, look at flash's game, he makes a reaper almsot every game, early. There's no way to deny that scouting unless I somehow guess which ledge this reaper is gonna jump up from. why not choose your tech after seeing your opponent's tech path? making 1 reaper (and you HAVE to build a baracks to do anything anyways lol) is no greater investment than protoss making an observer in WOL in almost every game because it's their only scouting option. You might argue that protoss has better scouting, which in HOTS, it seems that protoss does, but this has persisted since WOL, where protoss has minimal scouting options before commiting to a tech path (this is not a counter argument, but just pointing it out). And terran can almost always spare a scan before fully commiting to a tech path. I just feel that your argument is flawed in that "well since terran can't change tech terran units have to be super well rounded".
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On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote: As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 03:21 Crownlol wrote:On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote: For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters. Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop. The map thing is strictly a choice of mapmakers and the community. At the end of WoL, we STILL had safe overlord spying positions, and nobody seemed to care.
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On March 19 2013 14:19 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote: As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit. On March 19 2013 03:21 Crownlol wrote:On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote: [quote]
So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote: [quote]
So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters. Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop. The map thing is strictly a choice of mapmakers and the community. At the end of WoL, we STILL had safe overlord spying positions, and nobody seemed to care. Oh? So it is the mapmakers fault that we dont have gold mineral bases on maps anymore and it is their fault as well that we dont have cliff positions overlooking bases anymore?
Many of the balance problems are based in one general gameplay decision made by Blizzard: the increased economy and production speed boosts. IF the economy was so small that those 4 Medivacs of the doom drop would be hard to replace then the risk of making such a drop would be far greater and equal to the gain. Since you can mass-produce the Medivacs from a reactored Starport it isnt that much of an investment. The same is true for Infestors which only became a problem when people started making 25+ of them and spamming the whole battle with the much-too-cheap Infested Terrans. So the long term solution isnt really to nerf the Medivac boost but rather to get rid of economic and production speed boosts.
In addition certain mobility mechanics need to be redone to give cliffs and narrow chokes a defensive value while not making them too abuseable by one race.
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On March 19 2013 14:41 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:19 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote: As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit. On March 19 2013 03:21 Crownlol wrote:On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote: [quote]
Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg.
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote: [quote]
Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg.
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters. Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop. The map thing is strictly a choice of mapmakers and the community. At the end of WoL, we STILL had safe overlord spying positions, and nobody seemed to care. Oh? So it is the mapmakers fault that we dont have gold mineral bases on maps anymore and it is their fault as well that we dont have cliff positions overlooking bases anymore? Many of the balance problems are based in one general gameplay decision made by Blizzard: the increased economy and production speed boosts. IF the economy was so small that those 4 Medivacs of the doom drop would be hard to replace then the risk of making such a drop would be far greater and equal to the gain. Since you can mass-produce the Medivacs from a reactored Starport it isnt that much of an investment. The same is true for Infestors which only became a problem when people started making 25+ of them and spamming the whole battle with the much-too-cheap Infested Terrans. So the long term solution isnt really to nerf the Medivac boost but rather to get rid of economic and production speed boosts. There's a lot of issues that can be addressed with units and maps. I'm merely pointing out that some biases exist outside of Blizzard that greatly affect balance. Somewhere along the line, mapmakers decided they would give advantages to certain races and leave others out, like giving Zergs a safe spot for overlords in the early game, while intentionally leaving out tight chokes along main attack paths. A lot of blame goes to Blizzard when some of it should be shared with other portions, like community reactions, mapmakers, and tournament hosters.
With the first, look at this last MLG for a prime example of community overreaction, even from casters. Korean Terrans outplay foreign Ps and Zs and it's suddenly a "no brainer" that medivacs are OP? I already touched on the mapmakers. As for tournament organizers, they have the ability (and responsibility) to pick unorthodox maps, yet we often see the same maps turned 30° to 60° or with an expansion added/removed.
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On March 19 2013 14:53 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:41 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 14:19 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote: As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit. On March 19 2013 03:21 Crownlol wrote:On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote: [quote]
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote: [quote]
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters. Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop. The map thing is strictly a choice of mapmakers and the community. At the end of WoL, we STILL had safe overlord spying positions, and nobody seemed to care. Oh? So it is the mapmakers fault that we dont have gold mineral bases on maps anymore and it is their fault as well that we dont have cliff positions overlooking bases anymore? Many of the balance problems are based in one general gameplay decision made by Blizzard: the increased economy and production speed boosts. IF the economy was so small that those 4 Medivacs of the doom drop would be hard to replace then the risk of making such a drop would be far greater and equal to the gain. Since you can mass-produce the Medivacs from a reactored Starport it isnt that much of an investment. The same is true for Infestors which only became a problem when people started making 25+ of them and spamming the whole battle with the much-too-cheap Infested Terrans. So the long term solution isnt really to nerf the Medivac boost but rather to get rid of economic and production speed boosts. There's a lot of issues that can be addressed with units and maps. I'm merely pointing out that some biases exist outside of Blizzard that greatly affect balance. Somewhere along the line, mapmakers decided they would give advantages to certain races and leave others out, like giving Zergs a safe spot for overlords in the early game, while intentionally leaving out tight chokes along main attack paths. A lot of blame goes to Blizzard when some of it should be shared with other portions, like community reactions, mapmakers, and tournament hosters. With the first, look at this last MLG for a prime example of community overreaction, even from casters. Korean Terrans outplay foreign Ps and Zs and it's suddenly a "no brainer" that medivacs are OP? I already touched on the mapmakers. As for tournament organizers, they have the ability (and responsibility) to pick unorthodox maps, yet we often see the same maps turned 30° to 60° or with an expansion added/removed. The overarcing problem is that of MASSIVE NUMBERS and this is the same for all races. This is a gameplay mechanic which isnt listed with stats anywhere, but nevertheless this issue exists. Racially different unit design is only second rate to this as a problem maker IMO. This is also a problem which has existed since the beginning of "SC2 time" ...
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To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA
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On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote: To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW.
Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said.
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Yeahhhh not so much. Each race has their own mechanical quirks, and it's more or less self-balancing. Zergs with better injects and creep spread will face Terrans with better splitting and Protosses with better forcefields and so on and so forth. It's not at all more difficult for casuals, and although the mechanical impacts on macro/micro take a slightly different form than BW the player tiers it creates are fundamentally similar.
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Excited to see that they're not rushing to Change anything.
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Glad to see that they seem to be taking better care and attention to how the game and balance plays out. They might've been doing the same thing in the past, but bringing it out to public like this surely makes them seem like more "caring".
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Just don't like how terran is now 100% about abusing drops, which of course is easy enough to shut down with the right build. What happened to the promised mech viability?
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On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote: To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said. I don't think you've played BW at even a D- level. Just moving your army around takes more clicks than all the force fields you would ever put down in a game, combined. You know what's more required than blink micro for a casual player? Actually getting to the enemy base with your army. Rally point switching is so hard, pros showcase their rally point switching mechanics. Splitting marines vs banelings is, at best, just as hard as dodging lurker spines. At least banelings run out at some point. Have you tried a-moving 200/200 marines vs 2 lurkers?
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The only thing the game needs now is for more units to have micro potential. Making EMP take out FFs and guardian shield, making guardian shield block EMP, reworking the colossus and void ray. Something even as simple as making burrow and unburrow two separate hot keys would improve roach play.
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why not give zerg something like scourge to help defend against mass muta balls or say speedvacs or even toss new stargate plays.
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On March 19 2013 15:44 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote: To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said. I don't think you've played BW at even a D- level. Just moving your army around takes more clicks than all the force fields you would ever put down in a game, combined. You know what's more required than blink micro for a casual player? Actually getting to the enemy base with your army. Rally point switching is so hard, pros showcase their rally point switching mechanics. Splitting marines vs banelings is, at best, just as hard as dodging lurker spines. At least banelings run out at some point. Have you tried a-moving 200/200 marines vs 2 lurkers?
Before all that, you actually need to get a 200/200 army. Single building selection and manual mining make that a task in itself.
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too much whining , let the game evolve, actually i think it's pretty balanced aside from swarm host that seems a little underpowered to me
On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:11 MattBarry wrote:On March 19 2013 13:08 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 13:06 MattBarry wrote:On March 19 2013 13:03 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 12:56 MattBarry wrote: Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt. The issue isn't single drop ships so much, which DT's are great for defense against, but when they do 2-3 dropships or doom drops to a single location. Terran will definitely use a scan for that, and just one DT won't do much even if they somehow don't. DTs, a few zealots warped in on the fly, and a cannon or two (anymore would be silly and two is pushing it). If you spaced out the DT warp-ins, you could hold it until your stalkers blink in. I think the hard part would be fitting a DT shrine into the build. I'd like to see a huge match up shake up though, so who knows what might happen It might work, dunno, I don't feel like it's the best answer though. I'm experimenting with oracles to defend drops, if you manage to get it near the dropship before it has more than 1-2 units out, the pulsar beam will kill everything as they unload before they can do anything. Get a phoenix or two with it and they'll kill the dropships. I'm willing to bet stargate play is the most efficient option. But I'd like to see DTs be put in a position to also be a viable option so there's not just one way to play the matchup. I also really like DTs lore wise and gameplay wise I was really hoping for Blizzard to spread out the new toys more for Protoss. All they did was spam on the Stargate. Was hoping that they would give DT Shrine more love. There's always LOTV ^_^
what BW imbalanced? do not compute
BW it's the most balanced RTS in the history
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This was really saddening to hear. I really don't like how the void ray works in PvP, so I now tend to do some sort of all in as a result. Works out well, but not really all that fun.
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On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote: To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said.
Fortunately there's no need because you went on to 'explain' yourself with this gem.
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On March 19 2013 14:41 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:19 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote: As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit. On March 19 2013 03:21 Crownlol wrote:On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote: [quote]
Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg.
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote: [quote]
Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg.
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters. Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop. The map thing is strictly a choice of mapmakers and the community. At the end of WoL, we STILL had safe overlord spying positions, and nobody seemed to care. Oh? So it is the mapmakers fault that we dont have gold mineral bases on maps anymore and it is their fault as well that we dont have cliff positions overlooking bases anymore? Many of the balance problems are based in one general gameplay decision made by Blizzard: the increased economy and production speed boosts. IF the economy was so small that those 4 Medivacs of the doom drop would be hard to replace then the risk of making such a drop would be far greater and equal to the gain. Since you can mass-produce the Medivacs from a reactored Starport it isnt that much of an investment. The same is true for Infestors which only became a problem when people started making 25+ of them and spamming the whole battle with the much-too-cheap Infested Terrans. So the long term solution isnt really to nerf the Medivac boost but rather to get rid of economic and production speed boosts. In addition certain mobility mechanics need to be redone to give cliffs and narrow chokes a defensive value while not making them too abuseable by one race. Instead of redesigning the economic and production speed boosts, Blizzard simply just needs to create a drawback to the investment of dropping. For instance back in the WoL TvZ Mutalingbane days drops were risky once spire tech was finished because they could be easily sniped. However, certain Terran players still managed to make them work every so often. Medivacs are only so powerful at the moment because there is no integral anti-air unit for the Zerg in the midgame that has been demonstrated to be successful yet. So in a few months if Zerg still has not found a proper response then Blizzard will probably swing the nerfbat, but until then army compositions simply need to be toyed with until we can find the proper composition.
Mapmakers don't make maps tailored to their own tastes, but rather to the metagame. Lost temple was considered a garbage map because of the abuse of siege tanks positioned on the high ground. There were people that rushed thor drops just to get one onto the ledge. Cheesy strategies that are only executable on certain maps should not exist. Maps became bigger because players started playing more "macro-oriented" games, hence mapmakers could not get away with maps that were the size of steppes of war.
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Way too soon to be deciding anything at the moment. Glad that Blizzard is playing this one with soft hands.
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On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote: To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said.
That is only because you choose tactics tailored to the good players. I think there are alot of good and easy executable tactics, which allows you to focus on only a few things. For example, Hellion / Thor with autorepair scvs. That tactic was good enough to bring me to low diamond last season, and that is when there were no hellbats. (not talking about an all-in, alot of the matches went pretty late)
edit: though I doubt that tactics will ever bring you to masters, low diamond or plat is pretty good for a casual player I think.
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On March 19 2013 17:56 Xaerkar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:41 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 14:19 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote: range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote: As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit. On March 19 2013 03:21 Crownlol wrote:On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote: [quote]
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote: [quote]
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote: First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters. Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop. The map thing is strictly a choice of mapmakers and the community. At the end of WoL, we STILL had safe overlord spying positions, and nobody seemed to care. Oh? So it is the mapmakers fault that we dont have gold mineral bases on maps anymore and it is their fault as well that we dont have cliff positions overlooking bases anymore? Many of the balance problems are based in one general gameplay decision made by Blizzard: the increased economy and production speed boosts. IF the economy was so small that those 4 Medivacs of the doom drop would be hard to replace then the risk of making such a drop would be far greater and equal to the gain. Since you can mass-produce the Medivacs from a reactored Starport it isnt that much of an investment. The same is true for Infestors which only became a problem when people started making 25+ of them and spamming the whole battle with the much-too-cheap Infested Terrans. So the long term solution isnt really to nerf the Medivac boost but rather to get rid of economic and production speed boosts. In addition certain mobility mechanics need to be redone to give cliffs and narrow chokes a defensive value while not making them too abuseable by one race. Instead of redesigning the economic and production speed boosts, Blizzard simply just needs to create a drawback to the investment of dropping. For instance back in the WoL TvZ Mutalingbane days drops were risky once spire tech was finished because they could be easily sniped. However, certain Terran players still managed to make them work every so often. Medivacs are only so powerful at the moment because there is no integral anti-air unit for the Zerg in the midgame that has been demonstrated to be successful yet. So in a few months if Zerg still has not found a proper response then Blizzard will probably swing the nerfbat, but until then army compositions simply need to be toyed with until we can find the proper composition. Mapmakers don't make maps tailored to their own tastes, but rather to the metagame. Lost temple was considered a garbage map because of the abuse of siege tanks positioned on the high ground. There were people that rushed thor drops just to get one onto the ledge. Cheesy strategies that are only executable on certain maps should not exist. Maps became bigger because players started playing more "macro-oriented" games, hence mapmakers could not get away with maps that were the size of steppes of war. You're wrong, Bw had tons of maps with cheesy things only executable on certain maps. For exemple this neutral cc into infested terrans. It's really refreshing to have certain starts viable only on certain maps.
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On March 19 2013 19:08 Sky0 wrote:Korea GM atm. Doesnt look like zergs doing to bad. + Show Spoiler +
ROFL
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One thing is for sure, this MLG had some of the most action-packed games I've seen in a looong time. whatever they are doing, it's working pretty well. maybe there needs to be some little tweaks here or there, but overall the game seems pretty balanced. only time will tell though.
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On March 19 2013 19:15 sc2superfan101 wrote: One thing is for sure, this MLG had some of the most action-packed games I've seen in a looong time. whatever they are doing, it's working pretty well. maybe there needs to be some little tweaks here or there, but overall the game seems pretty balanced. only time will tell though. Yeah, the MLG final was awesome to watch. Balance-wise I think they have hit pretty well and for TvZ only need to make minor adjustments - if at all - too early to say in my opinion.
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Flash took one for the team to not get terran nerfed
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On March 19 2013 21:01 emanresU wrote:Flash took one for the team to not get terran nerfed
MVP so greedy, he could have stopped at 2 championships and let zerg creepspread get nerfed in WoL but nooo he had to keep on winning T_T
(just joking btw)
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Good decision by Blizz to not jump the gun yet.
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It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore.
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On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote: It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore.
more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is.
Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo.
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On March 19 2013 21:30 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote: It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is. Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo.
Only Life can do it.
And Terran just forgot how to use Siege Tank.lol They focus too much on WM.
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On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote: It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. Somebody has to pioneer a new build, and when a really good player does it, he can make it look totally unbalanced. It's like MC and his 1-2 base pushes that won him 3 GSL's, it looked OP - but it wasn't.
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i don't think there is a particular race/unit that is super OP at the moment, i think instead of calling imba like most ppl are doing, you should go re-evaluate what mistakes you've made instead of complaining to blizzard
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On March 19 2013 21:36 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:30 Zephirdd wrote:On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote: It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is. Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo. Only Life can do it. And Terran just forgot how to use Siege Tank.lol They focus too much on WM.
Forgot that Mutas are much better then before, especially if the terran doesn't build widow mines?!
Can't believe you zergies are still complaining about balance when we haven't got any proof that the balance is off in any matchup.
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On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote: To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said.
Didnt need those mechanics in bw... are you serious? Either 1. You didnt play BW, or 2. You werent good at it. True force fields n blink werent required. But are you serious on the marine splitting..? You tell me no splitting is required when lurkers take out half your army. Splitting was crucial. Please stop talking about brood war in comparisons to sc2. You sound like you dont know what you are talking about.
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On March 19 2013 21:52 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:36 FakeDeath wrote:On March 19 2013 21:30 Zephirdd wrote:On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote: It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is. Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo. Only Life can do it. And Terran just forgot how to use Siege Tank.lol They focus too much on WM. Forgot that Mutas are much better then before, especially if the terran doesn't build widow mines?! Can't believe you zergies are still complaining about balance when we haven't got any proof that the balance is off in any matchup.
Those mutas in the Flash-Life series withstood like 3-4 mines without taking any significant damage or loss.
Life's style is really effing strong.
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from what i've seen, the only sketchy thing i've seen is medivacs vs protoss. The rest was fine, imo.
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On March 19 2013 01:52 nojok wrote: I just had a random idea, maybe it's totally wrong, but why not make the boost forcing the medivacs to go in a straight line & can't drop/pick units? They will still be very powerful but more risky if you do it blindly and it would require more skill to be able to drop exactly where you want.
interesting. would be fun to play with.
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On March 19 2013 19:08 Sky0 wrote:Korea GM atm. Doesnt look like zergs doing to bad. + Show Spoiler +
Too strong, buff Terran and Toss!
Tbh, I hope they will bring in more stuff that makes the crowd go OOOOOOOH in tweaks instead of nerfing things. When there's more powerful abilities or something that makes positional play stronger it will make for more exciting games.
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On March 19 2013 21:36 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:30 Zephirdd wrote:On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote: It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is. Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo. Only Life can do it. And Terran just forgot how to use Siege Tank.lol They focus too much on WM.
Well, it's not something only Life can do. It's just that he is the only one who can do it at his tier of skill(Mvp, Flash,(MC?) and Life).
I've been practising it for some time, and sure it's hard to do, but it's definitly NOT impossible. (NOTE: i play at highmaster/low GM level, steadily improving :D)
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On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote: To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said.
how will a casual feel when he has to manually send every worker to gas / minerals? how will casual feel when he grabs his bunch of marries and sees that oh wait, i can only select 12??!? WTF? 1a2a3a4s is a bit harder than 1a or f2 a Please stop embarrassing yourself.
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On March 19 2013 22:02 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:36 FakeDeath wrote:On March 19 2013 21:30 Zephirdd wrote:On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote: It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is. Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo. Only Life can do it. And Terran just forgot how to use Siege Tank.lol They focus too much on WM. Well, it's not something only Life can do. It's just that he is the only one who can do it at his tier of skill(Mvp, Flash,(MC?) and Life). I've been practising it for some time, and sure it's hard to do, but it's definitly NOT impossible. (NOTE: i play at highmaster/low GM level, steadily improving :D)
Well he is the only zerg pro-player that can hold off 14 blue-flame hellions with only lings.(Last,Mvp) With just pure ling-queen micro. The only guy to split muta against widow mines and pull back muta individual against marines.
The reason why i think Flash lost is because he was focusing too much on WM usage and lack of scouting. And also not using the 8/8/8. They aren't the be-all unit. He needed to incorporate siege tanks into his composition.
Frankly speaking,Bio+Mines are supposed to do well against Muta+Lings. But Life adapted well and split ling to defuse mines to counter them and also keeping track of WMs planted in the map. and slowly disposed them with lings+overseer.
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On March 19 2013 22:01 CimonTheStoic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:52 nojok wrote: I just had a random idea, maybe it's totally wrong, but why not make the boost forcing the medivacs to go in a straight line & can't drop/pick units? They will still be very powerful but more risky if you do it blindly and it would require more skill to be able to drop exactly where you want. interesting. would be fun to play with.
terrible idea. why would you want to drastically reduce that amount of micro possible? And how the hell would this be more funt o play with then dropships that can zip around and drop wherever you need them? all the people crying about medivacs are the same people who were too stubborn to even learn how to deal with them in WOL. you know who you are. people were STILL complaining on the ladder in WOL when I would drop them all the way up until the end
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On March 19 2013 21:52 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:36 FakeDeath wrote:On March 19 2013 21:30 Zephirdd wrote:On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote: It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is. Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo. Only Life can do it. And Terran just forgot how to use Siege Tank.lol They focus too much on WM. Forgot that Mutas are much better then before, especially if the terran doesn't build widow mines?! Can't believe you zergies are still complaining about balance when we haven't got any proof that the balance is off in any matchup.
I am not complaining about balance. Just saying that Flash needed Siege tanks against Life +1/+1 baneling bust.
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As a player who is getting absolutely butt-fucked by the new Medivacs, I understand a lot of the unhappiness about this move.
But personally, I'm pretty happy to let the game develop a little bit. Let them get some more data and maybe another tournament of the highest level professionals to see what's up.
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Game 1 Flash vs Innovation was one of the best, if not the best, game I've ever seen in SC2. . . and I've watched every tournament since the game was released.
I'd rather them just buff drop defense of protoss and zerg. Faster medivacs = increased skill cap for every race obviously
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 19 2013 22:31 blacksheepwall wrote: As a player who is getting absolutely butt-fucked by the new Medivacs, I understand a lot of the unhappiness about this move.
But personally, I'm pretty happy to let the game develop a little bit. Let them get some more data and maybe another tournament of the highest level professionals to see what's up.
yeah, just stock up on your KY man, them medivacs will keep coming back for more
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I actually think the only matchup where the new medivacs are a problem is TvT. Watch Flash vs Innovation. Doom drops on both sides completely decided one of the games-I forget which one, but there were several drops of 5+ medivacs. Honestly, if Life and MC can easily deflect boosted drops, the other top tier players will quickly imitate them, and the metagame will evolve from there. Both Phoenixes and Mutalisks are fast enough to endanger medivacs, even when boosted.
I'd like to see Protoss using the warp prism for harassment more often, as well as more nydus play. All ins aside, setting up nydus worms in several locations allows for unbelievable mobility for even roach hydra off creep, and two or three warp prisms could send zealots in to a natural and third simultaneously, with little to no warning, against Terran at least. I'm sure there are good reasons why we don't see either of these used, but I'll voice the opinion anyway.
At the moment, the only imbalance I see is that swarm hosts are of extremely limited usefulness. Aside from that, skytoss may be a problem if zergs can't find a way to counter it, but let's give them that time first. From watching MLG, the highest quality games seemed to be decided by either skill level or new strats beating old strats, either of which is much better than watching late WoL games where one side just turtled until they won, with no real interesting play. I'm happy with where HotS is going.
In terms of changes....why doesn't the medivac cooldown start after the ability ends? Just a thought.
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On March 05 2013 09:56 SolidZeal wrote: I think the game is looking really healthy. Im excited about all 3 races, and nothing seems imbalanced to me. I liked this report as it addressed a lot of concerns ive seen people have.
The issue with creating a higher damage tank, will be that races such as Zerg have a lot harder time in some compositions to engage, as opposed to medivac speed. Besides, they are fine, the only thing in the game I feel needs to be revisited is the oracle damage in ZvP.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 19 2013 22:52 Terrasmith wrote: I actually think the only matchup where the new medivacs are a problem is TvT. Watch Flash vs Innovation. Doom drops on both sides completely decided one of the games-I forget which one, but there were several drops of 5+ medivacs. Honestly, if Life and MC can easily deflect boosted drops, the other top tier players will quickly imitate them, and the metagame will evolve from there. Both Phoenixes and Mutalisks are fast enough to endanger medivacs, even when boosted.
I'd like to see Protoss using the warp prism for harassment more often, as well as more nydus play. All ins aside, setting up nydus worms in several locations allows for unbelievable mobility for even roach hydra off creep, and two or three warp prisms could send zealots in to a natural and third simultaneously, with little to no warning, against Terran at least. I'm sure there are good reasons why we don't see either of these used, but I'll voice the opinion anyway.
At the moment, the only imbalance I see is that swarm hosts are of extremely limited usefulness. Aside from that, skytoss may be a problem if zergs can't find a way to counter it, but let's give them that time first. From watching MLG, the highest quality games seemed to be decided by either skill level or new strats beating old strats, either of which is much better than watching late WoL games where one side just turtled until they won, with no real interesting play. I'm happy with where HotS is going.
In terms of changes....why doesn't the medivac cooldown start after the ability ends? Just a thought.
Did you even watch the game?
It didn't completely decide the games. Innovation doom dropped Flash, killed Flash's main, Flash still won.
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On March 19 2013 22:52 Terrasmith wrote: I actually think the only matchup where the new medivacs are a problem is TvT. Watch Flash vs Innovation. Doom drops on both sides completely decided one of the games-I forget which one, but there were several drops of 5+ medivacs.
This already happened in WoL and it is easy to deal with when you drop defensively. It was rather strange that they didn't do it that way and decided to move their army on the ground (dropping and counter dropping in TvT was common in BW already). In Pre GSTL HotS Season there was a TvT that was a few levels over what happened on MLG and they are free to watch if I remember correctly and really worth a watch.
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On March 19 2013 22:11 vojnik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote: To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said. how will a casual feel when he has to manually send every worker to gas / minerals? how will casual feel when he grabs his bunch of marries and sees that oh wait, i can only select 12??!? WTF? 1a2a3a4s is a bit harder than 1a or f2 a Please stop embarrassing yourself. Oh great ... why dont you stop embarrassing yourself by playing the stupid black and white card?
Game development for SC2 isnt limited to the choice between "fully manual BW mode" and "fully automated SC2 mode" ... there is also the middle ground.
Worker automining, multiple building selection and autorepair (maybe) are the things which are acceptable improvements in SC2. Unlimited unit selection combined with perfectly tight unit movement are really terrible because of the "damage per area problem" which I have explained countless times already with the "Marines vs Stalkers" example.
You just need to look at this "dps per area problem" and you have to realize that it didnt exist in BW. Why? Because of the "waggly non-tight unit movement" and the 12-unit-selection limit. In addition the lower economy didnt encourage waiting for a maxed army or throwing away your units in BW either, so all the production and economic speed boosts are bad.
Being able to stack your units while they were at a defensive position was one part of the defenders advantage in BW, but that doesnt exist in SC2 anymore ... which is bad for the strategy aspect. The ugly deathball is FORCED in SC2 because of the unit movement and selection mechanics which simply make "every unit in the same spot" the most efficient way to play.
Casuals will feel ok with just 12 units (or maybe 2 groups of 12), because they could defend against their better friends who have twice as many units because they can stack up defensively and be more efficient. In BW you had to be GOOD to break a defensive position instead of simply having far superior numbers and waltzing through.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 19 2013 23:11 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 22:11 vojnik wrote:On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote: To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said. how will a casual feel when he has to manually send every worker to gas / minerals? how will casual feel when he grabs his bunch of marries and sees that oh wait, i can only select 12??!? WTF? 1a2a3a4s is a bit harder than 1a or f2 a Please stop embarrassing yourself. Oh great ... why dont you stop embarrassing yourself by playing the stupid black and white card? Game development for SC2 isnt limited to the choice between "fully manual BW mode" and "fully automated SC2 mode" ... there is also the middle ground. Worker automining, multiple building selection and autorepair (maybe) are the things which are acceptable improvements in SC2. Unlimited unit selection combined with perfectly tight unit movement are really terrible because of the "damage per area problem" which I have explained countless times already with the "Marines vs Stalkers" example. You just need to look at this "dps per area problem" and you have to realize that it didnt exist in BW. Why? Because of the "waggly non-tight unit movement" and the 12-unit-selection limit. In addition the lower economy didnt encourage waiting for a maxed army or throwing away your units in BW either, so all the production and economic speed boosts are bad. Being able to stack your units while they were at a defensive position was one part of the defenders advantage in BW, but that doesnt exist in SC2 anymore ... which is bad for the strategy aspect. The ugly deathball is FORCED in SC2 because of the unit movement and selection mechanics which simply make "every unit in the same spot" the most efficient way to play. Casuals will feel ok with just 12 units (or maybe 2 groups of 12), because they could defend against their better friends who have twice as many units because they can stack up defensively and be more efficient. In BW you had to be GOOD to break a defensive position instead of simply having far superior numbers and waltzing through.
And nothing stops you from only taking 12 units at a time in a group? You always have the OPTION of doing so....... Having unlimited unit selection in a group does NOT mean you have to do it. It means you can select 12, 14, 24 if you feel that's better, no?
As for units clumping up, you can, again, manually split them if you so desire........
so wtf is the pblm again?
and what's this every unit same spot non-sense......i don't even.... zerglings do surround, they don't deathball, marines, zealots, stalkers...etc. don't deathball either, you spread them out so every unit can attack.. unless it's ranged vs melee, where you would want to minimize the area at which the melee can attack you........ it's dynamic, it's not whatever you think it is..kk?
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I like how the zvz meta became muta ling/bane vs muta ling/bane, not. Roach was fun to play with especially in zvz's and the rule of engagement. Now it's really who makes more mutas and upgrades.
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On March 19 2013 23:30 Levernz wrote: I like how the zvz meta became muta ling/bane vs muta ling/bane, not. Roach was fun to play with especially in zvz's and the rule of engagement. Now it's really who makes more mutas and upgrades.
I still play it exactly the same way as before, +1 roach timing to deny third while taking third myself and then use my eco lead to just go fucking kill them with a maxed 3base doom push of roach/infestor/hydra. Dunno how it works higher up in master/GM when people start to micro better, but I'm just low master so works fine so far
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On March 19 2013 23:11 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 22:11 vojnik wrote:On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote: To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said. how will a casual feel when he has to manually send every worker to gas / minerals? how will casual feel when he grabs his bunch of marries and sees that oh wait, i can only select 12??!? WTF? 1a2a3a4s is a bit harder than 1a or f2 a Please stop embarrassing yourself. Oh great ... why dont you stop embarrassing yourself by playing the stupid black and white card? Game development for SC2 isnt limited to the choice between "fully manual BW mode" and "fully automated SC2 mode" ... there is also the middle ground. Worker automining, multiple building selection and autorepair (maybe) are the things which are acceptable improvements in SC2. Unlimited unit selection combined with perfectly tight unit movement are really terrible because of the "damage per area problem" which I have explained countless times already with the "Marines vs Stalkers" example. You just need to look at this "dps per area problem" and you have to realize that it didnt exist in BW. Why? Because of the "waggly non-tight unit movement" and the 12-unit-selection limit. In addition the lower economy didnt encourage waiting for a maxed army or throwing away your units in BW either, so all the production and economic speed boosts are bad. Being able to stack your units while they were at a defensive position was one part of the defenders advantage in BW, but that doesnt exist in SC2 anymore ... which is bad for the strategy aspect. The ugly deathball is FORCED in SC2 because of the unit movement and selection mechanics which simply make "every unit in the same spot" the most efficient way to play. Casuals will feel ok with just 12 units (or maybe 2 groups of 12), because they could defend against their better friends who have twice as many units because they can stack up defensively and be more efficient. In BW you had to be GOOD to break a defensive position instead of simply having far superior numbers and waltzing through.
how does that make BW mechanics easier? Most casuals did turtle fest in BW till Battle cruisers
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Well, they still don’t get it. Or rather do, just refuse to do anything about it :/
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On March 20 2013 00:12 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 23:30 Levernz wrote: I like how the zvz meta became muta ling/bane vs muta ling/bane, not. Roach was fun to play with especially in zvz's and the rule of engagement. Now it's really who makes more mutas and upgrades. I still play it exactly the same way as before, +1 roach timing to deny third while taking third myself and then use my eco lead to just go fucking kill them with a maxed 3base doom push of roach/infestor/hydra. Dunno how it works higher up in master/GM when people start to micro better, but I'm just low master so works fine so far
Yes thats the problem i am High Master on NA and all my zvz's are Mutas vs Mutas I tried the roach timing push but their mutas are out by the time you get to their third. Even if i denie it, they will hard counter with mass lings et mutas.
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On March 19 2013 22:22 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 22:01 CimonTheStoic wrote:On March 19 2013 01:52 nojok wrote: I just had a random idea, maybe it's totally wrong, but why not make the boost forcing the medivacs to go in a straight line & can't drop/pick units? They will still be very powerful but more risky if you do it blindly and it would require more skill to be able to drop exactly where you want. interesting. would be fun to play with. terrible idea. why would you want to drastically reduce that amount of micro possible? And how the hell would this be more funt o play with then dropships that can zip around and drop wherever you need them? all the people crying about medivacs are the same people who were too stubborn to even learn how to deal with them in WOL. you know who you are. people were STILL complaining on the ladder in WOL when I would drop them all the way up until the end You being all offensive isn't going to change the fact that he's on a interesting track here. Making this spell a conscious choice instead of using it every few seconds like a braindead robot is only going to improve the game.
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On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine?
Startale.Life found a way to counter the widow mines, or at least a method to render them much less effective than before.
The game of him vs Flash showcased some odd behavior regarding the mines.
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On March 20 2013 01:30 TigerKarl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 22:22 stratmatt wrote:On March 19 2013 22:01 CimonTheStoic wrote:On March 19 2013 01:52 nojok wrote: I just had a random idea, maybe it's totally wrong, but why not make the boost forcing the medivacs to go in a straight line & can't drop/pick units? They will still be very powerful but more risky if you do it blindly and it would require more skill to be able to drop exactly where you want. interesting. would be fun to play with. terrible idea. why would you want to drastically reduce that amount of micro possible? And how the hell would this be more funt o play with then dropships that can zip around and drop wherever you need them? all the people crying about medivacs are the same people who were too stubborn to even learn how to deal with them in WOL. you know who you are. people were STILL complaining on the ladder in WOL when I would drop them all the way up until the end You being all offensive isn't going to change the fact that he's on a interesting track here. Making this spell a conscious choice instead of using it every few seconds like a braindead robot is only going to improve the game.
Wait a second............you are saying that making the medivac impossible to control once you activate the boost improves the player's choices and makes them less of a robot? This is real-time strategy....not civilization lol.
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On March 20 2013 01:45 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote: How can there be nothing on the widow mine? Startale.Life found a way to counter the widow mines, or at least a method to render them much less effective than before. The game of him vs Flash showcased some odd behavior regarding the mines.
Yes. In some cases Life have lings and mutas run over a couple of mines and they did the least amount of dmg they could possible did.
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On March 19 2013 19:12 Psychobabas wrote:ROFL WTF haha. Here we go again.
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On March 20 2013 01:58 ZenithM wrote:WTF haha. Here we go again.
But all those barcodes are Life.
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- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them. I didn't watch entire MLG so I dunno, but if by creative players they mean MC and his series against MVP it's just lol.
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On March 20 2013 02:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 01:58 ZenithM wrote:On March 19 2013 19:12 Psychobabas wrote:On March 19 2013 19:08 Sky0 wrote:Korea GM atm. Doesnt look like zergs doing to bad. + Show Spoiler + ROFL WTF haha. Here we go again. But all those barcodes are Life. including 2 protoss and 1 terran. He is that good.
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On March 20 2013 02:03 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 02:01 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2013 01:58 ZenithM wrote:On March 19 2013 19:12 Psychobabas wrote:On March 19 2013 19:08 Sky0 wrote:Korea GM atm. Doesnt look like zergs doing to bad. + Show Spoiler + ROFL WTF haha. Here we go again. But all those barcodes are Life. including 2 protoss and 1 terran. He is that good.
He must understand the mind of his opponent.
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On March 20 2013 02:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 02:03 Cheerio wrote:On March 20 2013 02:01 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2013 01:58 ZenithM wrote:On March 19 2013 19:12 Psychobabas wrote:On March 19 2013 19:08 Sky0 wrote:Korea GM atm. Doesnt look like zergs doing to bad. + Show Spoiler + ROFL WTF haha. Here we go again. But all those barcodes are Life. including 2 protoss and 1 terran. He is that good. He must understand the mind of his opponent.
Sounds legit, expect him to take all of top 15 by himself soon!
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Cool. MLG was really awesome.
I love everything so far, especially the physics and death animations. I would say my least favourite unit so far is the viper. I do indeed like it, but, I think the abduct animation looks so cheesy. It just grabs and moves the unit so robotically. Doesn't look "natural" at all.. haha.
Anyway.. can't wait for more hots in the future.
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im sure roro, hydra, zero etc will be fine proleague zergs will find the way of dealing with that WM play im wondering how will fantasy abuse the medivac speed with his "terrorist teran" style
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On March 05 2013 09:12 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:10 forsooth wrote: Blizzard not in a hurry to nerf Terran for once? This is unprecedented. Took them forever to nerf terran in wol to at the beginning .
Except for that massive seige tank nerf that stopped them from dominating light armor.
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yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive. Hello Mr Kim how i can play aggressive with zerg if i must play vs mines? lings useless i go roach is instand all in.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 20 2013 05:41 JokerAi wrote: yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive. Hello Mr Kim how i can play aggressive with zerg if i must play vs mines? lings useless i go roach is instand all in.
lings are pretty epicly good when Life's controlling them It's the player, not the units themselves!
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On March 20 2013 05:41 JokerAi wrote: yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive. Hello Mr Kim how i can play aggressive with zerg if i must play vs mines? lings useless i go roach is instand all in.
play like Life
good luck
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I think the new death animations look so absurd, they almost look comical, specially stuff like tanks shooting marines. I wish they would tone them down or take them out altogether.
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They should have included a bunker change!!
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On March 20 2013 06:10 Shinespark wrote: I think the new death animations look so absurd, they almost look comical, specially stuff like tanks shooting marines. I wish they would tone them down or take them out altogether.
Yeah the whole physics/death engine is cool sometimes, like when things like medivacs and such die, but then when you see marines being flung 5 miles by an ultra swipe it is just way too much.
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If nothing else, I can say one thing.
The turtle to 3 bases and 200 supply metagame is dead and buried.
Thanks for the fish.
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Early aggression is good but there should always be an option for zerg to go into mid game without lots of early aggresion. Otherwise the game will get too one dimensional and all the terran will just focus of surviving early game to ripe the zerg apart later and every soon it will become boring to watch. Also it seems that the risk and reward for the medivac drop are too high. Terran can load up 2 medivac and drop in 2 places. It can totally cripple the zerg economy if the zerg is 2 seconds late reacting to the drop, while the absolute worst that the terran will lose is 2 medivac full of units which is not game ending most of the time at around mid game.
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EG-TL Coach Park wrote: Q: The 4th round of Proleague isn’t far off, what are your thoughts on Heart of the Swarm?
A: I haven’t been able to play a lot. It’s my first time after the closed beta. I have discussed with the players and Terran seems to be very strong. That is why I am worried, as there are too few Terrans on the team. But I do have an issue with the Ignite Thrusters (laughs). I used to think it would be fun to put boosters on Brood War Dropships but this is real. But the boosters in HotS are a little different than what I imagined. They should use energy, or become more vulnerable when using them, something like that. There has to be a risk, but there are none, so it’s no fun when players can infinitely use them. To make the game more enjoyable, there has to be some escape to that, but there are none, which is disappointing. Maybe if there was something like Scourge, but as of now it’s a bit lacking. They can definitely make it more exciting. Other than that, it’s a very fun game. It’s better than ‘Wings of Liberty.” But looking at player’s responses, I think they are correct in calling it “Terrancraft.” (laughs)
Source
Just incase people think that commenting on the balance of medivac boost is limited to randoms on the forum (ignoring twitter).
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 20 2013 07:28 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +EG-TL Coach Park wrote: Q: The 4th round of Proleague isn’t far off, what are your thoughts on Heart of the Swarm?
A: I haven’t been able to play a lot. It’s my first time after the closed beta. I have discussed with the players and Terran seems to be very strong. That is why I am worried, as there are too few Terrans on the team. But I do have an issue with the Ignite Thrusters (laughs). I used to think it would be fun to put boosters on Brood War Dropships but this is real. But the boosters in HotS are a little different than what I imagined. They should use energy, or become more vulnerable when using them, something like that. There has to be a risk, but there are none, so it’s no fun when players can infinitely use them. To make the game more enjoyable, there has to be some escape to that, but there are none, which is disappointing. Maybe if there was something like Scourge, but as of now it’s a bit lacking. They can definitely make it more exciting. Other than that, it’s a very fun game. It’s better than ‘Wings of Liberty.” But looking at player’s responses, I think they are correct in calling it “Terrancraft.” (laughs) SourceJust incase people think that commenting on the balance of medivac boost is limited to randoms on the forum (ignoring twitter).
I would honestly not mind an energy cost associated with it at all, 20, 25 energy even. In a way, it makes healing after doing a drop much more limited, and may prevent the medivac from a quick escape if there isn't enough energy after the engagement(stimming, taking damage..etc.).
In another sense, it'd be kind of a buff vs HTs, which isn't too bad either.
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There are
17 Zergs with 390 + points
13 Terran with 390 + points
9 Protoss with 390 + points
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United States9627 Posts
maybe make afterburners an upgrade? seems liek the most obvious fix.
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United States389 Posts
There is mainly an issue of conditioning. Zergs were conditioned to really do almost nothing but make 6 queens and drones, then smash Terrans face, for well over a year. This obviously has changed. It will take a little time for Zergs to come to grips with the fact that they can't just do that anymore. The hard part about playing Zerg in early WOL was the decision to make drones or units, and when. That decision seems to be coming back. They also should probably start making mutalisks again. They are super fast and even better raiders than before. Let's remember the reason they fell out of favor was not because they were not good, but because "80 drone 6 queen -> infestor brood" was SO much better than anything else. This conditioning needs to be broken down.
As for toss it is the same thing. Drops vs toss were laughable once a templar zapped both medivacs and a round of warpins come knocking. With faster medivacs, you need to react faster with your templars and warpins, and mostly likely you need to build a couple of cannons in important places. Toss are conditioned to be able to react after the medivacs are already starting to drop without any cannon help, now they will need to come to grips with the fact that they need to react faster, or make some cannons to buy themselves time. I see Toss's complaining about not being able to leave your base.... well what changed? We can get into your base 2 seconds faster and the whole game is turned on it's ear? No. It's conditioning that it should be easy. Well it's not easy anymore, break it down.
Why is it that we see so few Terrans complaining about the boost as opposed to other races? It's just as effective vs Terran right? Why are people not complaining about how they can't mech up with a couple turrets anymore? Conditioning. Terran is currently conditioned for everything to be hard, so dealing with things that are hard to deal with is perfectly normal.
When you think about it, breaking the conditioning that 2 of the races sit back, get nasty army then come kill Terran is actually a good thing. Make some super fast mutalisks, make a couple of cannons, and accelerate your growth. Or wait a month for them to give queens and stalkers plus 20 damage to medivacs, your choice.
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If the medivac speed boost is such a problem, I don't know why they can't simply get rid of it and buff the general speed of medivacs a little.
Personally, I've been playing random at mid masters since Hots release and I'm having a blast with all the races. I can't really say, based on my experience, that speed medivacs seem too powerful at the level i'm playing at. The things I've found most difficult to deal with so far are: 1) High muta counts in PvZ (not sure how much of a problem this still was by the end of WoL) 2) Proxy stargate/oracles in TvP 3) Widow mines in ZvT
I don't particularly think any of these are imbalanced: they're just strategies that you have to be extra careful in dealing with. Anecdotal information of course but it's quite interesting seeing how my random playing experience lines up with the primary problems players of particular races are having.
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Eh, I definitely agree that no one has figured out the game yet... But through playing it myself and watching all of MLG, afterburners and widowmines are gonna need some changes.
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Glad to see a week after release, people have already figured out the entire game and decided Terran is OP. Never change TL, never change.
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The really sad thing is that Blizzard most likely will eventually listen to the QQ and nerf Mines and Medivacs in the near future. Just some weeks after release of HOTS. Just like they did in WOL. And eventually it will most likely turn out like WOL. The additions to Terran in HOTS are pretty much straight up - maybe besides the Hellbat. Its not too tough to figure out how to use a Widowmine in your army composition or how to use afterburners for that instance. The new P and Z units are not like that. Besides the obvious Ultra buff and the Oracle cheeses the new units have just been used on a very situational basis (e.g. Viper vs Mech in TvZ). I believe that eventually - especially the Viper - will have a huge impact against nearly all opposing compositions and very likely the Mutalisks will have a return, at least as a transitional unit during midgame to harass and counter the afterburners.
Basically what happened at MLG, especially in TvZ, was the following: Terrans used multiprong drop harass all the time and Zerg didnt always go Muta or early aggression. Whenever Zerg did (hello Life!) Zerg did actually have a very decent chance of winning and the game itself didnt appear imbalanced. Those drops are quite a risk for terrans. If they get intercepted in early and mid game it will be a huge blow to armysize and they will be vulnerable to counters on most maps or can be forced to stay on 2 bases for quite a while which obviously is a huge issue in this match up.
Tldr: Too early to tell if the game is balanced. Metagame needs to adjust. Terran in HOTS like Terran in WOL: Easy to figure out hard to handle. Unlike P and Z (not saying they are easy to handle but it takes for sure longer to figure out unit synergys).
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I actually agree with the report. Please Blizz don't immidiately "fix" things because some people always start to cry after losing some games. Yes medivacs are good right now. I think this is awesome, gave us nice action at MLG. Time for the other races to learn to cope with that. Oracle seems rather strong in certain situations, too. It is also fast and mobile which gives toss some additional microing options, awesome. I guess we will see the other spells in use in the future, too they seem rather promising IMO. People start to whine about Voidrays in the moment they are actually useful, why am I not surprised?
Vipers look promising, too and the infestor isn't so dominant anymore, gives us variety in Z games. Overall it looks definately better than the end of WoL, I like it.
Please,Please don't go back to the WoL patch mode of "fixing" everything after some problems. Challenges in the game will force the players to progress their skills.
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After watching this last MLG, I dont see the imbalance with the medivac boost or widow mines. I watched both units/abilities get completely negated by toss and zerg. Just goes to show you that you need to think outside of your 1x1 box to win against perceived imbalanced.
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Wouldn't running two to three lings or zealots ahead of your main army deal with defensive widow mines almost automatically? They detonate on one or two units, you see where they are, you have 45 seconds to kill them. I've seen Terrans do that with stimmed marines, but no other race. Besides, in zvt widow mines create the exact same reaction as a baneling land mine does for Terran. Once you know they're out, you should become very nervous about clumping units. And mines vs mutas is not hard to deal with; it takes multiple shots to kill a muta, so a Zerg player should have time to run the mutas away to heal easily. From what I can tell, widow mines can be very strong, but they aren't impossible to deal with.
I'm very happy to see everyone in the last few pages take a more levelheaded view of things. Now if only Blizzard will keep their position and not patch for a couple of months...
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On March 20 2013 10:52 Terrasmith wrote: Wouldn't running two to three lings or zealots ahead of your main army deal with defensive widow mines almost automatically? They detonate on one or two units, you see where they are, you have 45 seconds to kill them. I've seen Terrans do that with stimmed marines, but no other race. Besides, in zvt widow mines create the exact same reaction as a baneling land mine does for Terran. Once you know they're out, you should become very nervous about clumping units. And mines vs mutas is not hard to deal with; it takes multiple shots to kill a muta, so a Zerg player should have time to run the mutas away to heal easily. From what I can tell, widow mines can be very strong, but they aren't impossible to deal with.
I'm very happy to see everyone in the last few pages take a more levelheaded view of things. Now if only Blizzard will keep their position and not patch for a couple of months... Mines alone are easy to set off with just a few units, but mines with an army to back it up (10,000x more common) are impossible to send a few units to absorb mine shots. Those lings will just die instantly to marine fire before setting off any mines.
So far a few ways of dealing with it ive seen is vs low # of mines, mutas or banelings can 1 shot them before the mines fire. Banelings especially useful vs clumped mines if your opponent gets lazy.
Overall I feel bio-mine is a very strong tvz build ^^
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On March 20 2013 10:52 Terrasmith wrote: Wouldn't running two to three lings or zealots ahead of your main army deal with defensive widow mines almost automatically? They detonate on one or two units, you see where they are, you have 45 seconds to kill them. I've seen Terrans do that with stimmed marines, but no other race. Besides, in zvt widow mines create the exact same reaction as a baneling land mine does for Terran. Once you know they're out, you should become very nervous about clumping units. And mines vs mutas is not hard to deal with; it takes multiple shots to kill a muta, so a Zerg player should have time to run the mutas away to heal easily. From what I can tell, widow mines can be very strong, but they aren't impossible to deal with.
I'm very happy to see everyone in the last few pages take a more levelheaded view of things. Now if only Blizzard will keep their position and not patch for a couple of months...
not really automatically. zealots are slower than the rest of your army and have the tendency to clump up. You have to work a bit to prevent that, you can also be flanked by the mines,u but these situations can be prevented with micro. I agree with you Blizzard shall not intervene and give the players a chance to cope with new situations.
Of course microing zealots infront and on the side ofy your army isn't an immidiate eye catcher but combined with other stuff showing up in the future the skill levels in all the races will rise and this is a good thing.
I am bad but I don't wan't immidiate fixes for every minor problem, I still want to be challenged and work for my wins.
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I was referring to talk about people being scared to try runbys or other counterattacks, mainly. In army vs army fights, the zerg should be able to split his units to take minimum damage and/or use mine splash to hurt the terran units as well. Life, at least, seems to have mastered this.
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There is no risk associated with the turbo itself. The drops themselves are still risky, albeit less so than in WoL. Which is also partly due to the fact that no one is quite used to the medivac's speed yet. Give the game a couple of months, and static defense will be more common, as will certain muta/phoenix placements and other preventative measures. Do you realize that Terran was the only race to consistently build preemptive static defense against drops in WoL? Zerg and Toss just assumed they could handle any drop that came their way with warp ins or speedlings and queens.
I do wish the medivac cooldown started after the ability finished. As is it's a 12 second cooldown, not 20 seconds. The full 20 seconds would make boosting in then boosting out less easy and increase the risk of the medivac getting sniped without fully shutting the drops down.
I think that making the medivac boost require energy is a terrible idea. A cooldown AND an energy requirement would make the boosters the most costly spell in the game, requirement wise. Every other spell is energy or cooldown, not both. But if you substitute the energy for the cooldown, then drops are more effective, not less. Also, one of the main points of the spell was to allow medivacs to escape after battles, since in WoL they often lagged behind the army and got shot down. If the spell requires energy, it's useless after a battle, because every medivac will have been using its energy to heal the army. I honestly think the drops will become much more manageable with time, though. If they're still a problem 2-3 months from now, then increasing the cooldown would be a good idea.
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what about making afterburners an upgrade like 150, 150 or 200, 200 and also needs an armory like the hellbat. cause i think using energy would make it alot harder but i am a terran so... lol also i like the idea of lets wait and see but its going to happen after or during gsl
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Gonna look forward to it! I think Blizz will nerf medivac afterburners (higher cooldown or they will remove it), maybe oracle (dmg vs light or health), widow mine (decrease dmg or remove 1s burrow)
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Its sort of interesting to see all these terrans talking about 'whining' when these are the same terrans that were some of the most vocal whiners just a few months ago. Just check their post history. Anyway, as a low-ish zerg I agree that we should wait and see what happens. Despite what Terrans say about their race being the hardest, historically terrans have been the first to come up with new builds while it has taken a long time for Zerg to generate timings (maybe protoss is somewhere in between, since a lot of their builds are just fine-tuned aggressive build order timings). Some of this may be to do with nerfs and maps, but I think not most of it. Zerg players have to learn every possible thing that the Terran (and to a lesser extent protoss) will do to them, and develop builds that can defend against all of those. That's how DRG, Stephano etc. played. That is probably what will happen in the future too, where a bunch of the new BS that Terran can pull will be figured out, people will drop the right defenses at the right time, and Terran won't play quite so aggressive. Seems thats already happening with less hyper-aggressive reaper openings and more macro reaper openings.
Still, I think that Terrans may be shooting themselves in the foot thinking that turtle until 200 with 6 queens is now 'obsolete' and Zergs have to be more aggressive. Terrans have gotten better at defending early (with mines and easier tanks) and they have gotten better at 'counter-attacks' (ie. medivac drops). Stephano said in that MLG interview that the first means Zerg can never go out onto the map until I think he said around 16 minutes. Actually at the end of WoL it didn't seem that most good zergs were going 6 queens, they were going less because they didn't need 6 queens. So maybe a more realistic guess would be that with the new early aggresion of Terran, zergs might have to start making more queens again. Meanwhile, its not obvious that turtling as a Zerg (against Terran) is a worse idea than it was before. Zerg did lose a lot in the infestor but in exchange they have actually good ultras, which means that those tech switches Terrans whined about can be even more deadly. And it means that Zerg isn't forced to go broodlord and be near immobile. Mutas are making a resurgence, but they still have the same problems as before (if you lose them in one wrong click then you lose the game) and logically that danger would be further increased when they can be lost to a couple of mines that aren't that easy to notice until its too late. Granted, Life did play like that and won. But that is how Life used to play and used to win anyway, even when supposedly 'all' zergs turtled to bl/infestor. I think its a mistake to imagine that people will play like Life, because no one can really play like Life.
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What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with.
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On March 20 2013 13:43 Empirimancer wrote: What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with.
well like i said maybe have it as an upgrade and armory so its later in the game and the other players will have more stuff to defend. i understand that the burners are good at every point in the game but i think that being able to hit your opponent with them so early give the terran a huge advantage that the other play cant catch up and making it harder to defend later.so in theory yes it should make it easier because of the investment until late game but idk we will see.
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On March 20 2013 13:57 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 13:43 Empirimancer wrote: What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with.
well like i said maybe have it as an upgrade and armory so its later in the game and the other players will have more stuff to defend. i understand that the burners are good at every point in the game but i think that being able to hit your opponent with them so early give the terran a huge advantage that the other play cant catch up and making it harder to defend later.so in theory yes it should make it easier because of the investment until late game but idk we will see. The point is that they STILL have to defend against it with units and can not leave their base OR they leave their base with fewer units than they could have to defend against a drop that might never come ... in several spots, so you have to leave quite a lot.
It is bad design of Blizzard and really obvious, but I think I should thank them for giving proof for one of my criticisms about the game design. SC2 simply has become TOO FAST and TOO MUCH ABOUT MOBILITY that strategy is no longer a part of the game. Just good macro and massive production are need and then you have to be LUCKY ... As some people have already pointed out to me when I replied that they should build cannons to defend against doom drops, there is no way to defend against it in the game, so you have to gamble. Leave your units to defend and risk losing a battle in the mid-field OR take them and risk being dropped and losing for sure. The Terran has the choice between dropping and not dropping. That LUCK being part of the game is ok since it applies to both races, right? Not really since it is supposed to be a STRATEGY game with the BETTER player winning and not the lucky guy.
Nerfing the Medivac boost will only mask the real problem and that is the overpowering importance of mobility in the game. There simply is too much of it ...
The other problem is that there are too many units in a far too concentrated area and they are too easily controlled.
+ Show Spoiler +Preemptive reply to the idiots ... who will claim that I want to turn SC2 into BW with my comments: There isnt only "BW settings" and "SC2 settings" to choose from, but rather a bazillion options between them. BW had its problems, but that doesnt mean SC2 is perfect. SC2 designers clearly went too far into the "more more more and easier" direction ...
BW wasnt boring to watch and only the limited technology at the time did prevent it from becoming a big eSports hit in the west. We have better technology to watch now, but that doesnt mean it makes sense to make the game ever faster and faster and bigger and bigger armies.
People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups.
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On March 20 2013 13:43 Empirimancer wrote: What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with.
Free upgrades have significant impact on the metgame, altho' I didn't agree with free Siege Tech in beta, I have to admit free Siege Tech has made Siege Tanks playable in TvP and haven't made early Zerg aggression unplayable in TvZ. In the case of Afterburners, it has forced both Protoss and Zerg to play more aggressively either before or at the 10 minute mark, and altho' that aggressiveness is certainly enjoyable to watch I don't think moving Afterburners to an upgrade at the Starport Tech Lab would necessarily eliminate that aggressiveness now that players have realized how effective it is regardless of Afterburners. And even tho' we all enjoy aggressive play from Protoss and Zerg, there should be a place for defensive play from them as well.
I think if you move the Afterburners upgrade to the Starport Tech Lab then Terrans will have to make more mindful decisions about whether or not they want to have faster Medivacs for effective drops or more Medivacs for effective pushes. It creates longer timings for the other races to be passive and reduces the mass of Medivacs for Terrans to be able to withstand pushes.
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On March 20 2013 14:13 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 13:19 orewakami wrote: Its sort of interesting to see all these terrans talking about 'whining' when these are the same terrans that were some of the most vocal whiners just a few weeks ago. I also find this hilarious
I also find it hilarious that those talking about whining a few weeks ago are the some of the most vocal whiners right now. Role reversals.
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I think many ppl dont realize that the game is pretty well balanced, if they fail in winning its because of their low skill. This goes for me too obviously. Dont whine about balance, try to practice more and tweak ur playstyle till success!!!!
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I'm all in favour of letting things settle for a while.
One thing I think would be worth considering, if there are any lasting issues with Protoss air vs Zerg, is a Hive upgrade to Swarm Hosts so Locusts can hit air, like they could earlier in the beta. That could make ZvZ more interesting, too.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
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Personally I'd like to see medivac boost just send them forwards and lock the direction of the medivac while active. Would mean using it randomly to get places faster has a risk and theres an element of skill and timing in using it well. It would also make it more viable for escape and less for attack as the medivacs would overshoot the drop unless activated at the perfect range.
Energy use is the easier change though, which is how blizzard usually does these things. That has the oposite effect, in that a low energy medivac can't escape, whereas a high energy one is less vulnerable to feedback. Seems less cool all round to me.
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I don't get it. Blizz intended to add new early options for each race, and they succeeded with both protoss and terran. But what about zerg? Burrow and overlord speed on hatch, which are USELESS. COMPLETELY USELESS!!!!!! It's unnecessary for my to list the plethora of options protoss and especially terran now have as their disposal. Dont nerf terran or protoss, just give zerg what they deserve!
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On March 20 2013 12:01 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 11:27 Terrasmith wrote:Do you realize that Terran was the only race to consistently build preemptive static defense against drops in WoL? Zerg and Toss just assumed they could handle any drop that came their way with warp ins or speedlings and queens. Nope, unless Zergs went for Mutas they would almost always have numerous spores and spines per base. Protoss also did build canons but they mostly defended drops by leaving units behind as cannons are terrible AA for their cost.
On ladder yes. Zergs on ladder are for some reason so much better at making static defense than pro zergs. Dunno how many times ive seen pro zergs struggle with drops while sitting on 2k minerals and refusing to just spam spores/spines.
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Well, as of now, on race distribution on the Korean Grandmaster ladder is:
P: 71 (35.86%) T: 59 (29.8%) Z: 68 (34.34%)
And the race distribution across all leagues in Korea is:
P: 7346 (35.36&) T: 6733 (32.41%) Z: 6695 (32.23%)
I think the numbers are pretty even, I cannot say that statistically one race is overrepresented than the other in the GM league. edit: so my opinion is: how about we wait a month, before jumping to conclusions?
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On March 20 2013 19:29 JustPassingBy wrote:Well, as of now, on race distribution on the Korean Grandmaster ladder is: P: 71 (35.86%) T: 59 (29.8%) Z: 68 (34.34%) And the race distribution across all leagues in Korea is: P: 7346 (35.36&) T: 6733 (32.41%) Z: 6695 (32.23%) I think the numbers are pretty even, I cannot say that statistically one race is overrepresented than the other in the GM league. edit: so my opinion is: how about we wait a month, before jumping to conclusions?
my only conclusion was that terran is the least played race
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On March 20 2013 19:38 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 19:29 JustPassingBy wrote:Well, as of now, on race distribution on the Korean Grandmaster ladder is: P: 71 (35.86%) T: 59 (29.8%) Z: 68 (34.34%) And the race distribution across all leagues in Korea is: P: 7346 (35.36&) T: 6733 (32.41%) Z: 6695 (32.23%) I think the numbers are pretty even, I cannot say that statistically one race is overrepresented than the other in the GM league. edit: so my opinion is: how about we wait a month, before jumping to conclusions? my only conclusion was that terran is the least played race
Good, then all three of us agree that the race distribution in the GM league is balanced? :> (whether that is because the game is balanced or it is too early to tell is another matter)
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On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote: People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups. Well, I guess I'm a lazy bum for not preferring an unintuitive interface restriction revolving around the arbitrary number of 12. Maybe I should stop being lazy and start playing a mechanically challenging game with no production queues, no control group hotkeys, no rally points, hotkey requirements for every command, and a 4-unit selection limit. Surely such arbitrary interface restrictions should greatly improve my gaming experience.
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On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 13:57 starslayer wrote:On March 20 2013 13:43 Empirimancer wrote: What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with.
SC2 simply has become TOO FAST and TOO MUCH ABOUT MOBILITY that strategy is no longer a part of the game. Just good macro and massive production are need and then you have to be LUCKY ... .
Somewhat agree. I think it's far too easy to avoid disadvantageous fights, and it's hard to force an opponent to commit into a slugfest without putting yourself in a horrible position.
Macro is now a joke. It's hard to distinguish yourself with macro when you're stuck at 3 mining bases and a very easily maxed out unit cap. I used to struggle to 200/200 with upgrades in BW, but let's face it, I could probably sip some tea while doing just that in 15 minutes in HotS (or less).
Mostly it is just about moving around the map and not getting caught (which is part luck part skill)
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GM boards have always been stupid because it rewards those who grind and make GM first then just sit there. Never understood why GM wasn't pure meritocracy top 16 or whatever. Either you're top ELO in the region or you're not.
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On March 20 2013 19:38 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 19:29 JustPassingBy wrote:Well, as of now, on race distribution on the Korean Grandmaster ladder is: P: 71 (35.86%) T: 59 (29.8%) Z: 68 (34.34%) And the race distribution across all leagues in Korea is: P: 7346 (35.36&) T: 6733 (32.41%) Z: 6695 (32.23%)I think the numbers are pretty even, I cannot say that statistically one race is overrepresented than the other in the GM league. edit: so my opinion is: how about we wait a month, before jumping to conclusions? my only conclusion was that terran is the least played race
Interesting, Terran has practically the same amount of players than Zerg players on what he posted.
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On March 20 2013 20:49 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 19:38 nkr wrote:On March 20 2013 19:29 JustPassingBy wrote:Well, as of now, on race distribution on the Korean Grandmaster ladder is: P: 71 (35.86%) T: 59 (29.8%) Z: 68 (34.34%) And the race distribution across all leagues in Korea is: P: 7346 (35.36&) T: 6733 (32.41%) Z: 6695 (32.23%)I think the numbers are pretty even, I cannot say that statistically one race is overrepresented than the other in the GM league. edit: so my opinion is: how about we wait a month, before jumping to conclusions? my only conclusion was that terran is the least played race Interesting, Terran has practically the same amount of players than Zerg players on what he posted.
he posted only one out of 4 regions; have a look yourself
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On March 20 2013 20:54 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 20:49 Godwrath wrote:On March 20 2013 19:38 nkr wrote:On March 20 2013 19:29 JustPassingBy wrote:Well, as of now, on race distribution on the Korean Grandmaster ladder is: P: 71 (35.86%) T: 59 (29.8%) Z: 68 (34.34%) And the race distribution across all leagues in Korea is: P: 7346 (35.36&) T: 6733 (32.41%) Z: 6695 (32.23%)I think the numbers are pretty even, I cannot say that statistically one race is overrepresented than the other in the GM league. edit: so my opinion is: how about we wait a month, before jumping to conclusions? my only conclusion was that terran is the least played race Interesting, Terran has practically the same amount of players than Zerg players on what he posted. he posted only one out of 4 regions; have a look yourself
You were argueing about his stats, and his stats are from korea. What's the point to look for different regions when you are discussing the race distribution in Korea ? I don't know how is that any relevant.
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On March 20 2013 19:56 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote: People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups. Well, I guess I'm a lazy bum for not preferring an unintuitive interface restriction revolving around the arbitrary number of 12. Maybe I should stop being lazy and start playing a mechanically challenging game with no production queues, no control group hotkeys, no rally points, hotkey requirements for every command, and a 4-unit selection limit. Surely such arbitrary interface restrictions should greatly improve my gaming experience. You completely miss the point ... it might be NECESSARY for BALANCING REASONS to limit the number of selected units to 12 because of the "unit density problem".
Just a quick reminder about that problem: A Marine and a Stalker have roughly the same dps. Their differences in health, armor and mobility is balanced with the differing cost. The problem starts to appear when you have MANY Marines against a mediocre amount of Stalkers ... for the same cost. Since you can "stack" roughly 3 Marines in the space each Stalker occupies you end up with a vastly superior Marine force which has three times the dps. As long as the numbers stay small the Stalkers can win and use their shield regeneration, but as soon as numbers increase the Marines will have a far bigger power.
The only thing that changes is NUMBER OF UNITS, but in the process the balance shifts from "balanced" to "totally one-sided". This is BAD because it makes the game harder to balance due to the shifting power depending upon numbers. If you dont see it and rather want to keep your stupid unlimited unit selection and super tight pathing then you are too lazy. A limit on number of units is NOT unintuitive, you are just too lazy to split your units into squads.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 20 2013 20:54 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 20:49 Godwrath wrote:On March 20 2013 19:38 nkr wrote:On March 20 2013 19:29 JustPassingBy wrote:Well, as of now, on race distribution on the Korean Grandmaster ladder is: P: 71 (35.86%) T: 59 (29.8%) Z: 68 (34.34%) And the race distribution across all leagues in Korea is: P: 7346 (35.36&) T: 6733 (32.41%) Z: 6695 (32.23%)I think the numbers are pretty even, I cannot say that statistically one race is overrepresented than the other in the GM league. edit: so my opinion is: how about we wait a month, before jumping to conclusions? my only conclusion was that terran is the least played race Interesting, Terran has practically the same amount of players than Zerg players on what he posted. he posted only one out of 4 regions; have a look yourself
yes, because kr is the only most relevant region, obviously..
when balancing, I def. agree that we should look at different leagues, but IMHO, there should be a bit more focus on the highest level of play.
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On March 20 2013 21:15 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 19:56 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote: People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups. Well, I guess I'm a lazy bum for not preferring an unintuitive interface restriction revolving around the arbitrary number of 12. Maybe I should stop being lazy and start playing a mechanically challenging game with no production queues, no control group hotkeys, no rally points, hotkey requirements for every command, and a 4-unit selection limit. Surely such arbitrary interface restrictions should greatly improve my gaming experience. You completely miss the point ... it might be NECESSARY for BALANCING REASONS to limit the number of selected units to 12 because of the "unit density problem". There is no real reason whatsoever that you would require it for balancing reasons. That would just be lazy balancing, and making the game worse because they would be too lazy to do proper balancing (luckily Blizzard doesnt seem to be inclines to ever introduce such a horrible idea).
I got another balancing idea: Currently Terran bio is too strong (just as example). What if at random intervals your screen would become black for 2 seconds? And we increase the chance it happens when units start dying. I don't think I have to argue that bio is pretty high on the list of micro-intensive compositions. So we can nerf that by blacking out your screen for a few seconds at a time, and then relatively often during fights. That way bio becomes alot less effective, and for example banelings become a way better counter. And if you disagree you are just too lazy to remember where your units were before your screen turned black.
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On March 20 2013 21:42 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 21:15 Rabiator wrote:On March 20 2013 19:56 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote: People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups. Well, I guess I'm a lazy bum for not preferring an unintuitive interface restriction revolving around the arbitrary number of 12. Maybe I should stop being lazy and start playing a mechanically challenging game with no production queues, no control group hotkeys, no rally points, hotkey requirements for every command, and a 4-unit selection limit. Surely such arbitrary interface restrictions should greatly improve my gaming experience. You completely miss the point ... it might be NECESSARY for BALANCING REASONS to limit the number of selected units to 12 because of the "unit density problem". There is no real reason whatsoever that you would require it for balancing reasons. That would just be lazy balancing, and making the game worse because they would be too lazy to do proper balancing (luckily Blizzard doesnt seem to be inclines to ever introduce such a horrible idea). I got another balancing idea: Currently Terran bio is too strong (just as example). What if at random intervals your screen would become black for 2 seconds? And we increase the chance it happens when units start dying. I don't think I have to argue that bio is pretty high on the list of micro-intensive compositions. So we can nerf that by blacking out your screen for a few seconds at a time, and then relatively often during fights. That way bio becomes alot less effective, and for example banelings become a way better counter. And if you disagree you are just too lazy to remember where your units were before your screen turned black.
That is probably the stupidest thing I've ever read... Thank you for your "contribution" to this thread.
My opinion: Don't change anything yet. Zerg was OP during most of WoL and they just didn't realize it until Destiny (and a few Koreans) came by and showed us all how powerful infestors are. No, I don't like speedivacs and mines, but that doesn't mean they're OP in any way. We just have to figure out the best way to deal with it all.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
Yeh lets nerf medivacs and widow mine so that we can return to wol balance...
except... terran is the least played race
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
oops[/QUOTE] I really doubt that race distribution in GML depends on number of playes for each race in all the leages. GML is about top 0.5%. There allways will be enough top ml terrans who potentially might go to gml. We don't have situation like there are only 100top terran players who deserve gml so the rest of terran places go to other races.
Anyway my point was that even now terrans don't dominate neither ladder nor gml. And if blizz nerf speedvacs or mines - terrans will vanish from ladder and tornaments like in wol. Yes i agrree that speedvacs are very strong but i also agree that zerg was too strong in wol and speedvacs are the only thing that compensate other races imba.
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On March 20 2013 18:40 mostevil wrote: Personally I'd like to see medivac boost just send them forwards and lock the direction of the medivac while active. Would mean using it randomly to get places faster has a risk and theres an element of skill and timing in using it well. It would also make it more viable for escape and less for attack as the medivacs would overshoot the drop unless activated at the perfect range.
Energy use is the easier change though, which is how blizzard usually does these things. That has the oposite effect, in that a low energy medivac can't escape, whereas a high energy one is less vulnerable to feedback. Seems less cool all round to me.
Another possibility that would play a little more intuitively than forcing a straight line would be to make load/unload impossible while afterburners are on. That way, it would be a way to get in/out, would have to be timed for perfect use and would give the enemy some time to react.
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Widow mine is the most obviously OP thing that has ever been in the game since WoL Beta's end. The fact that it can kill overseers is ridiculous - no way to deal with widow mines on more than 1 screen at a time because Z has to move the overseer one inch at a time or risk losing it. Given the current cost of overseers simply seeing widow mines makes Z burn 200-300 gas just to see. The widow mine is too efficient vs everything. Imo it should either have big damage on 1 target and really small splash dmg and radius or the opposite but not both as it does now.
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Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch one month after the Queen patch:
On August 20 2012 01:40 Giantt wrote: The problem of most Terran players in my opinion is that they refuse to change their mindset. They go for "old strategies" - bio, tank marine, mech, variations of the mentioned, and drill with it until the game is decided by battle. Very rarely and very few players ever think about transitioning to starport or they do after the game has already been decided. They have little experience in these situations and fail most of the time - thats normal, dont cry about it. It takes practice to be good at it. There are already a few players that are good at it but majority are shouting about imbalance. MVP just showed today that it is doable vs Vortix and Nerchio. It would take some months for the rest of the terrans to learn. (Source.) TLDR: Terrans don't adapt. Give it time. Mvp beating euro Zergs proves that game is fine.
Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch sevens months after the Queen patch:
Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind. (Source.) TLDR: Terrans and Protoss don't adapt. Give it time.
Giantt on the Widow mine one week after HotS release:
On March 21 2013 01:47 Giantt wrote: Widow mine is the most obviously OP thing that has ever been in the game since WoL Beta's end. The fact that it can kill overseers is ridiculous - no way to deal with widow mines on more than 1 screen at a time because Z has to move the overseer one inch at a time or risk losing it. Given the current cost of overseers simply seeing widow mines makes Z burn 200-300 gas just to see. The widow mine is too efficient vs everything. Imo it should either have big damage on 1 target and really small splash dmg and radius or the opposite but not both as it does now. TLDR: Widow Mine is the most ridiculous thing in the universe.
Several months after the Queen/Overlord patch, when European Zergs are allowed to play several levels above their real skill, everything is still fine; we need time, we need more time. Yet suddenly, when something problematic occurs for your race, you already know, one week after release, that Zergs adapted perfectly and are playing flawlessly against it, which of course means the thing is completely broken.
Strong credibility you have there, my friend.
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The only thing right now that obviously needs attention is the void ray.
You don't just FIGURE OUT the voidray, its an A move unit. Prismatic alignment works too well, it should be at least an upgrade at the fleet beacon.
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On March 21 2013 02:09 TheDwf wrote:Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch one month after the Queen patch: Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:40 Giantt wrote: The problem of most Terran players in my opinion is that they refuse to change their mindset. They go for "old strategies" - bio, tank marine, mech, variations of the mentioned, and drill with it until the game is decided by battle. Very rarely and very few players ever think about transitioning to starport or they do after the game has already been decided. They have little experience in these situations and fail most of the time - thats normal, dont cry about it. It takes practice to be good at it. There are already a few players that are good at it but majority are shouting about imbalance. MVP just showed today that it is doable vs Vortix and Nerchio. It would take some months for the rest of the terrans to learn. ( Source.) TLDR: Terrans don't adapt. Give it time. Mvp beating euro Zergs proves that game is fine. Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch sevens months after the Queen patch: Show nested quote +Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind. ( Source.) TLDR: Terrans and Protoss don't adapt. Give it time. Giantt on the Widow mine one week after HotS release: Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 01:47 Giantt wrote: Widow mine is the most obviously OP thing that has ever been in the game since WoL Beta's end. The fact that it can kill overseers is ridiculous - no way to deal with widow mines on more than 1 screen at a time because Z has to move the overseer one inch at a time or risk losing it. Given the current cost of overseers simply seeing widow mines makes Z burn 200-300 gas just to see. The widow mine is too efficient vs everything. Imo it should either have big damage on 1 target and really small splash dmg and radius or the opposite but not both as it does now. TLDR: Widow Mine is the most ridiculous thing in the universe. Several months after the Queen/Overlord patch, when European Zergs are allowed to play several levels above their real skill, everything is still fine; we need time, we need more time. Yet suddenly, when something problematic occurs for your race, you already know, one week after release, that Zergs adapted perfectly and are playing flawlessly against it, which of course means the thing is completely broken. Strong credibility you have there, my friend. haha, lol, nice find.
I don't agree at all that zerg is in trouble balancewise, btw. Well, i can't say anything about it tbh. I was surprised leenock lost 3-0 (at mlg), but that's about it.
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On March 21 2013 02:09 TheDwf wrote:Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch one month after the Queen patch: Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:40 Giantt wrote: The problem of most Terran players in my opinion is that they refuse to change their mindset. They go for "old strategies" - bio, tank marine, mech, variations of the mentioned, and drill with it until the game is decided by battle. Very rarely and very few players ever think about transitioning to starport or they do after the game has already been decided. They have little experience in these situations and fail most of the time - thats normal, dont cry about it. It takes practice to be good at it. There are already a few players that are good at it but majority are shouting about imbalance. MVP just showed today that it is doable vs Vortix and Nerchio. It would take some months for the rest of the terrans to learn. ( Source.) TLDR: Terrans don't adapt. Give it time. Mvp beating euro Zergs proves that game is fine. Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch sevens months after the Queen patch: Show nested quote +Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind. ( Source.) TLDR: Terrans and Protoss don't adapt. Give it time. Giantt on the Widow mine one week after HotS release: Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 01:47 Giantt wrote: Widow mine is the most obviously OP thing that has ever been in the game since WoL Beta's end. The fact that it can kill overseers is ridiculous - no way to deal with widow mines on more than 1 screen at a time because Z has to move the overseer one inch at a time or risk losing it. Given the current cost of overseers simply seeing widow mines makes Z burn 200-300 gas just to see. The widow mine is too efficient vs everything. Imo it should either have big damage on 1 target and really small splash dmg and radius or the opposite but not both as it does now. TLDR: Widow Mine is the most ridiculous thing in the universe. Several months after the Queen/Overlord patch, when European Zergs are allowed to play several levels above their real skill, everything is still fine; we need time, we need more time. Yet suddenly, when something problematic occurs for your race, you already know, one week after release, that Zergs adapted perfectly and are playing flawlessly against it, which of course means the thing is completely broken. Strong credibility you have there, my friend.
I stand for what I have said. Of course I am biased. Everybody that is even remotely interested in the game is biased towards a certain race.The posts you dug out only state that I do not have the time nor I am willing to spend the effort raising flags about something broken with another race or match up that is not affecting me.
To explain my point further, so that you might grasp my meaning: The issue with the infestor appeared 1+ year after the unit remained unchanged(and nerfed in terms of neural parasite). It was created not by the unit itself but by the way Zerg players learned to use it - in every situation with nearly perfect efficiency. The case with WM on the other hand appears now - only a month-two so since the last major patch - when only a few people are near mastering WM control and tactics and most of what you see is mediocre usage that yields great results. The issue is only going to become more and more obvious as more and more Terrans improve their skills with the new unit.
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I definitely like aggressive play (that aren't all-ins every time) to be possible in many situations. HotS has definitely made this better in the short run. More fun to play and watch. As long as one race isn't pigeonholed into defending forever with no shot at doing damage till lategame without having to do a coinflip build (I'm looking at you 2012 WoL Protoss). When I play P now, I love the options recall gives you early on for instance.
There are a couple of things that probably need tweaking, but obviously it takes time to figure some of this stuff out.
Good announcement by Blizz.
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I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded.
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On March 21 2013 02:09 TheDwf wrote:Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch one month after the Queen patch: Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:40 Giantt wrote: The problem of most Terran players in my opinion is that they refuse to change their mindset. They go for "old strategies" - bio, tank marine, mech, variations of the mentioned, and drill with it until the game is decided by battle. Very rarely and very few players ever think about transitioning to starport or they do after the game has already been decided. They have little experience in these situations and fail most of the time - thats normal, dont cry about it. It takes practice to be good at it. There are already a few players that are good at it but majority are shouting about imbalance. MVP just showed today that it is doable vs Vortix and Nerchio. It would take some months for the rest of the terrans to learn. ( Source.) TLDR: Terrans don't adapt. Give it time. Mvp beating euro Zergs proves that game is fine. Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch sevens months after the Queen patch: Show nested quote +Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind. ( Source.) TLDR: Terrans and Protoss don't adapt. Give it time. Giantt on the Widow mine one week after HotS release: Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 01:47 Giantt wrote: Widow mine is the most obviously OP thing that has ever been in the game since WoL Beta's end. The fact that it can kill overseers is ridiculous - no way to deal with widow mines on more than 1 screen at a time because Z has to move the overseer one inch at a time or risk losing it. Given the current cost of overseers simply seeing widow mines makes Z burn 200-300 gas just to see. The widow mine is too efficient vs everything. Imo it should either have big damage on 1 target and really small splash dmg and radius or the opposite but not both as it does now. TLDR: Widow Mine is the most ridiculous thing in the universe. Several months after the Queen/Overlord patch, when European Zergs are allowed to play several levels above their real skill, everything is still fine; we need time, we need more time. Yet suddenly, when something problematic occurs for your race, you already know, one week after release, that Zergs adapted perfectly and are playing flawlessly against it, which of course means the thing is completely broken. Strong credibility you have there, my friend.
great post
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On March 21 2013 02:09 TheDwf wrote:Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch one month after the Queen patch: Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:40 Giantt wrote: The problem of most Terran players in my opinion is that they refuse to change their mindset. They go for "old strategies" - bio, tank marine, mech, variations of the mentioned, and drill with it until the game is decided by battle. Very rarely and very few players ever think about transitioning to starport or they do after the game has already been decided. They have little experience in these situations and fail most of the time - thats normal, dont cry about it. It takes practice to be good at it. There are already a few players that are good at it but majority are shouting about imbalance. MVP just showed today that it is doable vs Vortix and Nerchio. It would take some months for the rest of the terrans to learn. ( Source.) TLDR: Terrans don't adapt. Give it time. Mvp beating euro Zergs proves that game is fine. Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch sevens months after the Queen patch: Show nested quote +Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind. ( Source.) TLDR: Terrans and Protoss don't adapt. Give it time. Giantt on the Widow mine one week after HotS release: Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 01:47 Giantt wrote: Widow mine is the most obviously OP thing that has ever been in the game since WoL Beta's end. The fact that it can kill overseers is ridiculous - no way to deal with widow mines on more than 1 screen at a time because Z has to move the overseer one inch at a time or risk losing it. Given the current cost of overseers simply seeing widow mines makes Z burn 200-300 gas just to see. The widow mine is too efficient vs everything. Imo it should either have big damage on 1 target and really small splash dmg and radius or the opposite but not both as it does now. TLDR: Widow Mine is the most ridiculous thing in the universe. Several months after the Queen/Overlord patch, when European Zergs are allowed to play several levels above their real skill, everything is still fine; we need time, we need more time. Yet suddenly, when something problematic occurs for your race, you already know, one week after release, that Zergs adapted perfectly and are playing flawlessly against it, which of course means the thing is completely broken. Strong credibility you have there, my friend.
lol nice one. but: although widow mines arent superimba (just a bit too strong) they havent been out since 1 week but tested since 5 months in beta (with say 2 months on the highest level).
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On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 13:57 starslayer wrote:On March 20 2013 13:43 Empirimancer wrote: What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with.
well like i said maybe have it as an upgrade and armory so its later in the game and the other players will have more stuff to defend. i understand that the burners are good at every point in the game but i think that being able to hit your opponent with them so early give the terran a huge advantage that the other play cant catch up and making it harder to defend later.so in theory yes it should make it easier because of the investment until late game but idk we will see. The point is that they STILL have to defend against it with units and can not leave their base OR they leave their base with fewer units than they could have to defend against a drop that might never come ... in several spots, so you have to leave quite a lot. It is bad design of Blizzard and really obvious, but I think I should thank them for giving proof for one of my criticisms about the game design. SC2 simply has become TOO FAST and TOO MUCH ABOUT MOBILITY that strategy is no longer a part of the game. Just good macro and massive production are need and then you have to be LUCKY ... As some people have already pointed out to me when I replied that they should build cannons to defend against doom drops, there is no way to defend against it in the game, so you have to gamble. Leave your units to defend and risk losing a battle in the mid-field OR take them and risk being dropped and losing for sure. The Terran has the choice between dropping and not dropping. That LUCK being part of the game is ok since it applies to both races, right? Not really since it is supposed to be a STRATEGY game with the BETTER player winning and not the lucky guy. Nerfing the Medivac boost will only mask the real problem and that is the overpowering importance of mobility in the game. There simply is too much of it ... The other problem is that there are too many units in a far too concentrated area and they are too easily controlled. + Show Spoiler +Preemptive reply to the idiots ... who will claim that I want to turn SC2 into BW with my comments: There isnt only "BW settings" and "SC2 settings" to choose from, but rather a bazillion options between them. BW had its problems, but that doesnt mean SC2 is perfect. SC2 designers clearly went too far into the "more more more and easier" direction ...
BW wasnt boring to watch and only the limited technology at the time did prevent it from becoming a big eSports hit in the west. We have better technology to watch now, but that doesnt mean it makes sense to make the game ever faster and faster and bigger and bigger armies.
People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups.
BUMP for great justice. Couldn't agree more
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I guess I must have imagined all those cool games I just watched where the better player won.
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On March 21 2013 04:05 Umpteen wrote: I guess I must have imagined all those cool games I just watched where the better player won. The game (SC2) has been about luck all the time. You had to be lucky to look at your Marines when the Banelings started rolling in, you had to be lucky to not move your bio blob forward too much to be split by forcefields, you had to be lucky to catch that doom drop of the Terrans ...
Sure enough you can make up for that with skill and experience, BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL. Everyone else gets to roll the dice because the game is too fast at killing stuff due to too many units on the battlefield in too small an area. In BW you had drops as well, but there was enough time to react for everyone and the same is true for anything else you can come up with in a game between players of equal skill, but in SC2 the massive numbers and super tight formation simply kills that and replaces it with LUCK.
Since there are more non-pros playing the game than there are pros it is safe to say that it is a game more about luck than strategy.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 21 2013 04:16 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 04:05 Umpteen wrote: I guess I must have imagined all those cool games I just watched where the better player won. The game (SC2) has been about luck all the time. You had to be lucky to look at your Marines when the Banelings started rolling in, you had to be lucky to not move your bio blob forward too much to be split by forcefields, you had to be lucky to catch that doom drop of the Terrans ... Sure enough you can make up for that with skill and experience, BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL. Everyone else gets to roll the dice because the game is too fast at killing stuff due to too many units on the battlefield in too small an area. In BW you had drops as well, but there was enough time to react for everyone and the same is true for anything else you can come up with in a game between players of equal skill, but in SC2 the massive numbers and super tight formation simply kills that and replaces it with LUCK. Since there are more non-pros playing the game than there are pros it is safe to say that it is a game more about luck than strategy.
yup, scouting is over-rated
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On March 20 2013 23:47 Daswollvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 18:40 mostevil wrote: Personally I'd like to see medivac boost just send them forwards and lock the direction of the medivac while active. Would mean using it randomly to get places faster has a risk and theres an element of skill and timing in using it well. It would also make it more viable for escape and less for attack as the medivacs would overshoot the drop unless activated at the perfect range.
Energy use is the easier change though, which is how blizzard usually does these things. That has the oposite effect, in that a low energy medivac can't escape, whereas a high energy one is less vulnerable to feedback. Seems less cool all round to me. Another possibility that would play a little more intuitively than forcing a straight line would be to make load/unload impossible while afterburners are on. That way, it would be a way to get in/out, would have to be timed for perfect use and would give the enemy some time to react. I think this is a great change, just make it so medivacs can't load/unload while boosting
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On March 21 2013 02:58 Giantt wrote: The issue with the infestor appeared 1+ year after the unit remained unchanged(and nerfed in terms of neural parasite). It was created not by the unit itself but by the way Zerg players learned to use it - in every situation with nearly perfect efficiency. The case with WM on the other hand appears now - only a month-two so since the last major patch - when only a few people are near mastering WM control and tactics and most of what you see is mediocre usage that yields great results. The issue is only going to become more and more obvious as more and more Terrans improve their skills with the new unit.
The problem with the BL/infestor comp appeared immediately after the queen buffs. It wasn't so much the infestor as it much the early game buffs combined with the best possible lategame army. Your response, "let protoss and terran players sweat".
Well, after a year of a broken zerg strategy going unchecked, I think its time for you guys to sweat a bit.
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please delete i didnt mean to post. sorry
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On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 13:57 starslayer wrote:On March 20 2013 13:43 Empirimancer wrote: What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with.
well like i said maybe have it as an upgrade and armory so its later in the game and the other players will have more stuff to defend. i understand that the burners are good at every point in the game but i think that being able to hit your opponent with them so early give the terran a huge advantage that the other play cant catch up and making it harder to defend later.so in theory yes it should make it easier because of the investment until late game but idk we will see. The point is that they STILL have to defend against it with units and can not leave their base OR they leave their base with fewer units than they could have to defend against a drop that might never come ... in several spots, so you have to leave quite a lot. It is bad design of Blizzard and really obvious, but I think I should thank them for giving proof for one of my criticisms about the game design. SC2 simply has become TOO FAST and TOO MUCH ABOUT MOBILITY that strategy is no longer a part of the game. Just good macro and massive production are need and then you have to be LUCKY ... As some people have already pointed out to me when I replied that they should build cannons to defend against doom drops, there is no way to defend against it in the game, so you have to gamble. Leave your units to defend and risk losing a battle in the mid-field OR take them and risk being dropped and losing for sure. The Terran has the choice between dropping and not dropping. That LUCK being part of the game is ok since it applies to both races, right? Not really since it is supposed to be a STRATEGY game with the BETTER player winning and not the lucky guy. Nerfing the Medivac boost will only mask the real problem and that is the overpowering importance of mobility in the game. There simply is too much of it ... The other problem is that there are too many units in a far too concentrated area and they are too easily controlled. + Show Spoiler +Preemptive reply to the idiots ... who will claim that I want to turn SC2 into BW with my comments: There isnt only "BW settings" and "SC2 settings" to choose from, but rather a bazillion options between them. BW had its problems, but that doesnt mean SC2 is perfect. SC2 designers clearly went too far into the "more more more and easier" direction ...
BW wasnt boring to watch and only the limited technology at the time did prevent it from becoming a big eSports hit in the west. We have better technology to watch now, but that doesnt mean it makes sense to make the game ever faster and faster and bigger and bigger armies.
People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups.
+1
User was warned for this post
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I feel like medivacs speed boost should cost 25 energy. Medivacs are like the only unit in the game with energy that have a spell cost no energy.
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On March 21 2013 04:16 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 04:05 Umpteen wrote: I guess I must have imagined all those cool games I just watched where the better player won. The game (SC2) has been about luck all the time. You had to be lucky to look at your Marines when the Banelings started rolling in, you had to be lucky to not move your bio blob forward too much to be split by forcefields, you had to be lucky to catch that doom drop of the Terrans ... Sure enough you can make up for that with skill and experience, BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL. Everyone else gets to roll the dice because the game is too fast at killing stuff due to too many units on the battlefield in too small an area. In BW you had drops as well, but there was enough time to react for everyone and the same is true for anything else you can come up with in a game between players of equal skill, but in SC2 the massive numbers and super tight formation simply kills that and replaces it with LUCK. Since there are more non-pros playing the game than there are pros it is safe to say that it is a game more about luck than strategy.
Your overdoing it Rabiator, I understand what your saying even though i don't agree with most of it.
But dude it's not that those banelings could teleport on your marines. You can watch the minimap, have a marine in front etc.
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On March 21 2013 04:54 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:58 Giantt wrote: The issue with the infestor appeared 1+ year after the unit remained unchanged(and nerfed in terms of neural parasite). It was created not by the unit itself but by the way Zerg players learned to use it - in every situation with nearly perfect efficiency. The case with WM on the other hand appears now - only a month-two so since the last major patch - when only a few people are near mastering WM control and tactics and most of what you see is mediocre usage that yields great results. The issue is only going to become more and more obvious as more and more Terrans improve their skills with the new unit.
The problem with the BL/infestor comp appeared immediately after the queen buffs. It wasn't so much the infestor as it much the early game buffs combined with the best possible lategame army. Your response, "let protoss and terran players sweat". Well, after a year of a broken zerg strategy going unchecked, I think its time for you guys to sweat a bit. No it didn't appeared after the queen buff, it was used way before. Its just cause zerg didn't get killed before they reached the composition that it became apparent.
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On March 21 2013 05:23 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 04:54 Bagi wrote:On March 21 2013 02:58 Giantt wrote: The issue with the infestor appeared 1+ year after the unit remained unchanged(and nerfed in terms of neural parasite). It was created not by the unit itself but by the way Zerg players learned to use it - in every situation with nearly perfect efficiency. The case with WM on the other hand appears now - only a month-two so since the last major patch - when only a few people are near mastering WM control and tactics and most of what you see is mediocre usage that yields great results. The issue is only going to become more and more obvious as more and more Terrans improve their skills with the new unit.
The problem with the BL/infestor comp appeared immediately after the queen buffs. It wasn't so much the infestor as it much the early game buffs combined with the best possible lategame army. Your response, "let protoss and terran players sweat". Well, after a year of a broken zerg strategy going unchecked, I think its time for you guys to sweat a bit. No it didn't appeared after the queen buff, it was used way before. Its just cause zerg didn't get killed before they reached the composition that it became apparent. I never said the comp didn't appear before it, but its what really made it into a huge problem. The problem was that a ridiculously strong early game and a ridiculously strong lategame meant that there was only a small window in the midgame where the zerg was vulnerable. The whole metagame (2-2 mech timings, immortal sentry all-ins) started to revolve around that window.
Before the queen buff terrans could significantly delay the 3rd and get a much better econ compared to the zerg. Many games were also outright won with early pressure builds.
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On March 21 2013 05:34 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 05:23 Assirra wrote:On March 21 2013 04:54 Bagi wrote:On March 21 2013 02:58 Giantt wrote: The issue with the infestor appeared 1+ year after the unit remained unchanged(and nerfed in terms of neural parasite). It was created not by the unit itself but by the way Zerg players learned to use it - in every situation with nearly perfect efficiency. The case with WM on the other hand appears now - only a month-two so since the last major patch - when only a few people are near mastering WM control and tactics and most of what you see is mediocre usage that yields great results. The issue is only going to become more and more obvious as more and more Terrans improve their skills with the new unit.
The problem with the BL/infestor comp appeared immediately after the queen buffs. It wasn't so much the infestor as it much the early game buffs combined with the best possible lategame army. Your response, "let protoss and terran players sweat". Well, after a year of a broken zerg strategy going unchecked, I think its time for you guys to sweat a bit. No it didn't appeared after the queen buff, it was used way before. Its just cause zerg didn't get killed before they reached the composition that it became apparent. I never said the comp didn't appear before it, but its what really made it into a huge problem. The problem was that a ridiculously strong early game and a ridiculously strong lategame meant that there was only a small window in the midgame where the zerg was vulnerable. The whole metagame (2-2 mech timings, immortal sentry all-ins) started to revolve around that window. Before the queen buff terrans could significantly delay the 3rd and get a much better econ compared to the zerg. Many games were also outright won with early pressure builds. Either way, we shouldn't ask the game to be broken for anybody or for a race to "sweat." By the end of WoL, we had some REALLY good evidence that Zerg was too strong, especially in ZvT. A bunch of tournament results, pro feedback, specific games, etc. Right now, we have 1 tournament of Korean Terrans beating foreigners... There is no sweating, just a gigantic question mark on the state of balance for everybody.
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On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 13:57 starslayer wrote:On March 20 2013 13:43 Empirimancer wrote: What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with.
well like i said maybe have it as an upgrade and armory so its later in the game and the other players will have more stuff to defend. i understand that the burners are good at every point in the game but i think that being able to hit your opponent with them so early give the terran a huge advantage that the other play cant catch up and making it harder to defend later.so in theory yes it should make it easier because of the investment until late game but idk we will see. The point is that they STILL have to defend against it with units and can not leave their base OR they leave their base with fewer units than they could have to defend against a drop that might never come ... in several spots, so you have to leave quite a lot. It is bad design of Blizzard and really obvious, but I think I should thank them for giving proof for one of my criticisms about the game design. SC2 simply has become TOO FAST and TOO MUCH ABOUT MOBILITY that strategy is no longer a part of the game. Just good macro and massive production are need and then you have to be LUCKY ... As some people have already pointed out to me when I replied that they should build cannons to defend against doom drops, there is no way to defend against it in the game, so you have to gamble. Leave your units to defend and risk losing a battle in the mid-field OR take them and risk being dropped and losing for sure. The Terran has the choice between dropping and not dropping. That LUCK being part of the game is ok since it applies to both races, right? Not really since it is supposed to be a STRATEGY game with the BETTER player winning and not the lucky guy. Nerfing the Medivac boost will only mask the real problem and that is the overpowering importance of mobility in the game. There simply is too much of it ... The other problem is that there are too many units in a far too concentrated area and they are too easily controlled. + Show Spoiler +Preemptive reply to the idiots ... who will claim that I want to turn SC2 into BW with my comments: There isnt only "BW settings" and "SC2 settings" to choose from, but rather a bazillion options between them. BW had its problems, but that doesnt mean SC2 is perfect. SC2 designers clearly went too far into the "more more more and easier" direction ...
BW wasnt boring to watch and only the limited technology at the time did prevent it from becoming a big eSports hit in the west. We have better technology to watch now, but that doesnt mean it makes sense to make the game ever faster and faster and bigger and bigger armies.
People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups.
Rab you've been on the money in this thread but this post is gold. I understand how Blizz wanted to speed up the pace of the game but the ultra-mobility has definitely hurt strategic and unit depth.
If everyone is special... then no one is special.
I think Coach Park's quote pretty much ends the mock fight about whether or not the medivac needs a tweak.
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On March 21 2013 02:09 TheDwf wrote:Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch one month after the Queen patch: Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:40 Giantt wrote: The problem of most Terran players in my opinion is that they refuse to change their mindset. They go for "old strategies" - bio, tank marine, mech, variations of the mentioned, and drill with it until the game is decided by battle. Very rarely and very few players ever think about transitioning to starport or they do after the game has already been decided. They have little experience in these situations and fail most of the time - thats normal, dont cry about it. It takes practice to be good at it. There are already a few players that are good at it but majority are shouting about imbalance. MVP just showed today that it is doable vs Vortix and Nerchio. It would take some months for the rest of the terrans to learn. ( Source.) TLDR: Terrans don't adapt. Give it time. Mvp beating euro Zergs proves that game is fine. Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch sevens months after the Queen patch: Show nested quote +Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind. ( Source.) TLDR: Terrans and Protoss don't adapt. Give it time. Giantt on the Widow mine one week after HotS release: Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 01:47 Giantt wrote: Widow mine is the most obviously OP thing that has ever been in the game since WoL Beta's end. The fact that it can kill overseers is ridiculous - no way to deal with widow mines on more than 1 screen at a time because Z has to move the overseer one inch at a time or risk losing it. Given the current cost of overseers simply seeing widow mines makes Z burn 200-300 gas just to see. The widow mine is too efficient vs everything. Imo it should either have big damage on 1 target and really small splash dmg and radius or the opposite but not both as it does now. TLDR: Widow Mine is the most ridiculous thing in the universe. Several months after the Queen/Overlord patch, when European Zergs are allowed to play several levels above their real skill, everything is still fine; we need time, we need more time. Yet suddenly, when something problematic occurs for your race, you already know, one week after release, that Zergs adapted perfectly and are playing flawlessly against it, which of course means the thing is completely broken. Strong credibility you have there, my friend.
Ahhhh this made my day. This is what every single balance thread is--people being hypocritical depending on if they feel advantaged or disadvantaged. Masters kids struggle with adapting, and will eventually figure it out after pros do, while whining the whole way though. Give pros time to figure it out; this Giantt kid's original advice is pretty good.
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On March 21 2013 06:22 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote:On March 20 2013 13:57 starslayer wrote:On March 20 2013 13:43 Empirimancer wrote: What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with.
well like i said maybe have it as an upgrade and armory so its later in the game and the other players will have more stuff to defend. i understand that the burners are good at every point in the game but i think that being able to hit your opponent with them so early give the terran a huge advantage that the other play cant catch up and making it harder to defend later.so in theory yes it should make it easier because of the investment until late game but idk we will see. The point is that they STILL have to defend against it with units and can not leave their base OR they leave their base with fewer units than they could have to defend against a drop that might never come ... in several spots, so you have to leave quite a lot. It is bad design of Blizzard and really obvious, but I think I should thank them for giving proof for one of my criticisms about the game design. SC2 simply has become TOO FAST and TOO MUCH ABOUT MOBILITY that strategy is no longer a part of the game. Just good macro and massive production are need and then you have to be LUCKY ... As some people have already pointed out to me when I replied that they should build cannons to defend against doom drops, there is no way to defend against it in the game, so you have to gamble. Leave your units to defend and risk losing a battle in the mid-field OR take them and risk being dropped and losing for sure. The Terran has the choice between dropping and not dropping. That LUCK being part of the game is ok since it applies to both races, right? Not really since it is supposed to be a STRATEGY game with the BETTER player winning and not the lucky guy. Nerfing the Medivac boost will only mask the real problem and that is the overpowering importance of mobility in the game. There simply is too much of it ... The other problem is that there are too many units in a far too concentrated area and they are too easily controlled. + Show Spoiler +Preemptive reply to the idiots ... who will claim that I want to turn SC2 into BW with my comments: There isnt only "BW settings" and "SC2 settings" to choose from, but rather a bazillion options between them. BW had its problems, but that doesnt mean SC2 is perfect. SC2 designers clearly went too far into the "more more more and easier" direction ...
BW wasnt boring to watch and only the limited technology at the time did prevent it from becoming a big eSports hit in the west. We have better technology to watch now, but that doesnt mean it makes sense to make the game ever faster and faster and bigger and bigger armies.
People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups. Rab you've been on the money in this thread but this post is gold. I understand how Blizz wanted to speed up the pace of the game but the ultra-mobility has definitely hurt strategic and unit depth. If everyone is special... then no one is special. I think Coach Park's quote pretty much ends the mock fight about whether or not the medivac needs a tweak. Or maybe the lack of Terrans on EG-TL influences his opinion just as much as playing a race does...
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On March 21 2013 06:29 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 06:22 Sabu113 wrote:On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote:On March 20 2013 13:57 starslayer wrote:On March 20 2013 13:43 Empirimancer wrote: What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with.
well like i said maybe have it as an upgrade and armory so its later in the game and the other players will have more stuff to defend. i understand that the burners are good at every point in the game but i think that being able to hit your opponent with them so early give the terran a huge advantage that the other play cant catch up and making it harder to defend later.so in theory yes it should make it easier because of the investment until late game but idk we will see. The point is that they STILL have to defend against it with units and can not leave their base OR they leave their base with fewer units than they could have to defend against a drop that might never come ... in several spots, so you have to leave quite a lot. It is bad design of Blizzard and really obvious, but I think I should thank them for giving proof for one of my criticisms about the game design. SC2 simply has become TOO FAST and TOO MUCH ABOUT MOBILITY that strategy is no longer a part of the game. Just good macro and massive production are need and then you have to be LUCKY ... As some people have already pointed out to me when I replied that they should build cannons to defend against doom drops, there is no way to defend against it in the game, so you have to gamble. Leave your units to defend and risk losing a battle in the mid-field OR take them and risk being dropped and losing for sure. The Terran has the choice between dropping and not dropping. That LUCK being part of the game is ok since it applies to both races, right? Not really since it is supposed to be a STRATEGY game with the BETTER player winning and not the lucky guy. Nerfing the Medivac boost will only mask the real problem and that is the overpowering importance of mobility in the game. There simply is too much of it ... The other problem is that there are too many units in a far too concentrated area and they are too easily controlled. + Show Spoiler +Preemptive reply to the idiots ... who will claim that I want to turn SC2 into BW with my comments: There isnt only "BW settings" and "SC2 settings" to choose from, but rather a bazillion options between them. BW had its problems, but that doesnt mean SC2 is perfect. SC2 designers clearly went too far into the "more more more and easier" direction ...
BW wasnt boring to watch and only the limited technology at the time did prevent it from becoming a big eSports hit in the west. We have better technology to watch now, but that doesnt mean it makes sense to make the game ever faster and faster and bigger and bigger armies.
People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups. Rab you've been on the money in this thread but this post is gold. I understand how Blizz wanted to speed up the pace of the game but the ultra-mobility has definitely hurt strategic and unit depth. If everyone is special... then no one is special. I think Coach Park's quote pretty much ends the mock fight about whether or not the medivac needs a tweak. Or maybe the lack of Terrans on EG-TL influences his opinion just as much as playing a race does...
Nah, I think Coach Park is pretty much on the ball with this one. Keep the boost awesome, just don't make it endless(ie, cool down based). Make it so there are a limited number of boosts for a given time and it will be better for everyone.
As for units in SC2 being more mobile the BW, I don't know about that. Speed vultures and shuttles were pretty quick if you compair how fast they went to how big the screen was(before the era of wide screens).
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On March 21 2013 06:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 06:29 aksfjh wrote:On March 21 2013 06:22 Sabu113 wrote:On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote:On March 20 2013 13:57 starslayer wrote:On March 20 2013 13:43 Empirimancer wrote: What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with.
well like i said maybe have it as an upgrade and armory so its later in the game and the other players will have more stuff to defend. i understand that the burners are good at every point in the game but i think that being able to hit your opponent with them so early give the terran a huge advantage that the other play cant catch up and making it harder to defend later.so in theory yes it should make it easier because of the investment until late game but idk we will see. The point is that they STILL have to defend against it with units and can not leave their base OR they leave their base with fewer units than they could have to defend against a drop that might never come ... in several spots, so you have to leave quite a lot. It is bad design of Blizzard and really obvious, but I think I should thank them for giving proof for one of my criticisms about the game design. SC2 simply has become TOO FAST and TOO MUCH ABOUT MOBILITY that strategy is no longer a part of the game. Just good macro and massive production are need and then you have to be LUCKY ... As some people have already pointed out to me when I replied that they should build cannons to defend against doom drops, there is no way to defend against it in the game, so you have to gamble. Leave your units to defend and risk losing a battle in the mid-field OR take them and risk being dropped and losing for sure. The Terran has the choice between dropping and not dropping. That LUCK being part of the game is ok since it applies to both races, right? Not really since it is supposed to be a STRATEGY game with the BETTER player winning and not the lucky guy. Nerfing the Medivac boost will only mask the real problem and that is the overpowering importance of mobility in the game. There simply is too much of it ... The other problem is that there are too many units in a far too concentrated area and they are too easily controlled. + Show Spoiler +Preemptive reply to the idiots ... who will claim that I want to turn SC2 into BW with my comments: There isnt only "BW settings" and "SC2 settings" to choose from, but rather a bazillion options between them. BW had its problems, but that doesnt mean SC2 is perfect. SC2 designers clearly went too far into the "more more more and easier" direction ...
BW wasnt boring to watch and only the limited technology at the time did prevent it from becoming a big eSports hit in the west. We have better technology to watch now, but that doesnt mean it makes sense to make the game ever faster and faster and bigger and bigger armies.
People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups. Rab you've been on the money in this thread but this post is gold. I understand how Blizz wanted to speed up the pace of the game but the ultra-mobility has definitely hurt strategic and unit depth. If everyone is special... then no one is special. I think Coach Park's quote pretty much ends the mock fight about whether or not the medivac needs a tweak. Or maybe the lack of Terrans on EG-TL influences his opinion just as much as playing a race does... Nah, I think Coach Park is pretty much on the ball with this one. Keep the boost awesome, just don't make it endless(ie, cool down based). Make it so there are a limited number of boosts for a given time and it will be better for everyone. As for units in SC2 being more mobile the BW, I don't know about that. Speed vultures and shuttles were pretty quick if you compair how fast they went to how big the screen was(before the era of wide screens). Well, you and Park were on the same page in the first place, and you both have similar slants. There's not anything wrong with that, I just wish people would see that instead of "OMG pure unbiased opinions from a coach!"
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On March 21 2013 05:34 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 05:23 Assirra wrote:On March 21 2013 04:54 Bagi wrote:On March 21 2013 02:58 Giantt wrote: The issue with the infestor appeared 1+ year after the unit remained unchanged(and nerfed in terms of neural parasite). It was created not by the unit itself but by the way Zerg players learned to use it - in every situation with nearly perfect efficiency. The case with WM on the other hand appears now - only a month-two so since the last major patch - when only a few people are near mastering WM control and tactics and most of what you see is mediocre usage that yields great results. The issue is only going to become more and more obvious as more and more Terrans improve their skills with the new unit.
The problem with the BL/infestor comp appeared immediately after the queen buffs. It wasn't so much the infestor as it much the early game buffs combined with the best possible lategame army. Your response, "let protoss and terran players sweat". Well, after a year of a broken zerg strategy going unchecked, I think its time for you guys to sweat a bit. No it didn't appeared after the queen buff, it was used way before. Its just cause zerg didn't get killed before they reached the composition that it became apparent. I never said the comp didn't appear before it, but its what really made it into a huge problem. The problem was that a ridiculously strong early game and a ridiculously strong lategame meant that there was only a small window in the midgame where the zerg was vulnerable. The whole metagame (2-2 mech timings, immortal sentry all-ins) started to revolve around that window. Before the queen buff terrans could significantly delay the 3rd and get a much better econ compared to the zerg. Many games were also outright won with early pressure builds. Yugioh was using it in 2011 to great success while streaming (but he is not your standard player. He forced the lategame back then, something no other zergs were really trying). If I remember right even David Kim made a comment in a report (I will try and find it) of some kind about how they were concerned about the potential power of infestor/broodlord (but that they didn't want to address it yet), but at the time people were so wrapped up in focusing on the strength of Terran that they ignored the issue completely because at the time it was more of a mythical lategame composition that would rarely occur compared to what it turned into after the queen patch. It was the advantages gained by the queen patch (or possibly even just the awareness of the strength of early game queens for defence and creep spread. Losira was going for 4-6 queens many games before the patch already and was showing the power of them) that allowed it to become such a problem.
Edit: Here is the thing I was talking about with David Kim talking about Infestor/Broodlord in 2011. Look at some of the replies to the thread hahaha: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=234187
People didn't think it was possible to get to a composition like that. Though this was before the ghost nerf. People weren't even thinking about it versus Protoss.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 20 2013 21:15 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 19:56 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote: People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups. Well, I guess I'm a lazy bum for not preferring an unintuitive interface restriction revolving around the arbitrary number of 12. Maybe I should stop being lazy and start playing a mechanically challenging game with no production queues, no control group hotkeys, no rally points, hotkey requirements for every command, and a 4-unit selection limit. Surely such arbitrary interface restrictions should greatly improve my gaming experience. You completely miss the point ... it might be NECESSARY for BALANCING REASONS to limit the number of selected units to 12 because of the "unit density problem". Just a quick reminder about that problem: A Marine and a Stalker have roughly the same dps. Their differences in health, armor and mobility is balanced with the differing cost. The problem starts to appear when you have MANY Marines against a mediocre amount of Stalkers ... for the same cost. Since you can "stack" roughly 3 Marines in the space each Stalker occupies you end up with a vastly superior Marine force which has three times the dps. As long as the numbers stay small the Stalkers can win and use their shield regeneration, but as soon as numbers increase the Marines will have a far bigger power. The only thing that changes is NUMBER OF UNITS, but in the process the balance shifts from "balanced" to "totally one-sided". This is BAD because it makes the game harder to balance due to the shifting power depending upon numbers. If you dont see it and rather want to keep your stupid unlimited unit selection and super tight pathing then you are too lazy. A limit on number of units is NOT unintuitive, you are just too lazy to split your units into squads.
You're wrong, scaling factor was always there, units jumped from zero to hero with numbers all the time in bw.
Like, early in the game marines are the weakest unit to have with paper HP, totally countered by zealots for cost. Later in the game, BW marines are just as unbeatable as in SC2, barring some kind of AoE (go beat a bio terran with just zealots and dragoons, hint: you won't). Or zealots supposed to be a direct counter to tanks (and they did on a small scale), but being completely pointless without support once terran reached a critical mass of tanks. Those critical mass scenarios are what makes the game deep and interesting.
But on all other points, sadly, you're right.
The game suffers glaring economy problems right now, with everyone maxing out way too fast. Some people give sheer income per mineral field credit for that, but there's more - people expand too often and saturate too fast. Blazingly fast saturation is a problem - it basically mitigates all the costs associated with an expansion, since it pays off way too soon. In SC2, you need LESS workers to achieve MORE income and, thanks to inject larva and chrono boost, those workers build very very fast. Drone whoring was an art in BW simply because they were the most larva-inefficient unit in the game, but thanks to inject and the fact that you will build queens anyway (they are cool), you can saturate a fourth in literally one production wave. Terrans are a special case, receiving unconditional mineral income from just having CC's (leading to really stupid builds that have more CC's than bases), which too leads to larger income.
In BW, having 2 workers per crystal on a base doesn't give you the max income - thanks to the stupid worker AI, they still spend time going from mineral to mineral, not mining. In SC2, there's no point in ever having more than 2, since the income difference is neglible. Combined with the "macro mechanics" this makes saturation even faster, greatly reducing the timing window when your expansion still costs you more than it gives.
Thus, the only real factor that guides your decision to expand is position: defending 3 bases is harder than defending two. Otherwise, people would just expand all the time, the economical penalty for doing that is too small. In ladder replay packs you see people taking expansions they cannot protect all the time - chances are high that your opponent simply doesn't notice it before it already pays off. And when he goes to kill it, you can always rebuild. Yes, it's not always true for tournament games, but people with such level of awareness are too rare.
Just reducing the number of patches per base won't help - it will unbalance mineral to gas ratios and you will saturate even faster. Maybe make more cluttered minlines with outlying mineral fields farther from the main, so that workers spend more time moving. Maybe even reduce minerals per trip combined with a reduction of mining time so that 2 workers don't occupy 100% of a crystal's mining time. Until something is done, we are going to see 16/24 on every expo in every game. Furthermore, a less smooth saturation curve (that is basically linear until 2 workers per patch, then almost flat, a clear evidence of that is the decline of maynarding - there's no point of splitting your workers unless you are already saturated on your main, BW's curve is more smooth, so there's almost always an increase in efficiency if you split your workers evenly between the main and the nat) increases the gap between having a different amount of bases on the same amount of workers. Right now 2 bases is almost always 2x as good as one base, and 3 bases is almost always 1.5x as good as 2. It was less discrete in BW, so that you actually could have a macro style with say, 3 bases vs 2, with both players being reasonably efficient for a pretty large timing window.
200/200 games are not RTS. The game of "dump your army in the most cost-efficient was possible and remax faster than your opponent" is not fun (and it favors zerg with their unique ability to store production capability with inject larva), it leads to pointless engagements and abuse of production mechanics and it's not something I want StarCraft to be. Seriously, dumping your army so you can remax on different units that work better vs your enemy's current composition is the dumbest thing ever, you should be using your units to achieve strategical goals, not throwing them away.
Whew, finally spat it out.
And yeah, about mobility. Time and time again, I will continue ranting. Medivac is a terrible unit. You cannot have both combat power and mobility on the same unit at the same time, because it eliminates choice. Medivac's combat power is a given - you will have no doubts about building them with a bio army even if you never plan to drop anything anywhere. I understand that Blizzard has their "vision" of the terran race, but let's face it - terrans had no problem building dropships in BW when they could not do anything else but drop, and they were efficient enough. Having the ability to bring your units where they matter most is great enough already to pay for it without any bonus features attached. So now you don't choose between a "macro ground terran" (HotS tried to alleviate that with pure mech, let's see how it works, but biological hellbats don't help) and "micro drop-heavy terran that has fewer units", you always have both. And even though it doesn't remove anything from the skill ceiling, it removes something from player identity.
Oh and the joke that the protoss race is now... Don't even have the right words for that.
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On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote: I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded.
I haven't played HotS, and the point I was making about TvT is that with WoL positional play and the new medivac speed, doom drops and base trade scenarios could easily become much more common. If you actually read what I said, I didn't complain about medivacs being too strong or imba at all, and would like to see no patching for a while regardless, just to see how the metagame reacts. Please don't take someone's posts out of context to satisfy your own ego.
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On March 05 2013 09:24 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. Clearly you don't understand the game, as those things are not even close to similar.
Yeah, because CLEARLY Blink never broke the game.
It made some maps completely one-sided for Blink all ins (remember Xel'Naga Fortress?) and it made P so strong in PvZ that they used ONE strategy and shat on every Zerg in existence (mass Blink Stalkers? free wins? okay then). It gave mobility AND durability during FIGHTS. Protoss players didn't even research armor upgrades and they STILL destroyed Zerg armies with minimal losses.
Fast Medivacs promotes splitting up the main army and multitasking to be aggressive and harass your opponents.
What did Blink do? Promote all ins, replace defensive upgrades with good micro, and create a GIANT unkillable Stalker BALL.
Fast Medivacs does what Blizzard wanted (break up the deathball), whereas Blink does the opposite.
So you're right, they aren't close to similar. One is better for the game, and the other one breaks it.
Medivacs just make it easier to get in a base to do damage and easier to get out to keep them as a reasonable threat. You STILL need to pay attention to the drop to pick it up and run in order to really maximize the effectiveness of the drop. Does it need a tweak? I feel like the consensus is tilted more towards buffing other races to compromise instead of nerfing it outright, because it's actually a good mechanic. I LIKE the fact that if you pick up quickly enough, you don't automatically get shut down by Mutas. I LIKE the fact that Terrans can actually get mass drops to hurt during the mid-game, instead of a desperation move during the late-game, praying that the enemy didn't drop a ton of static defense. I LIKE the fact that it thoroughly rewards Terrans for paying attention to their drops and picking up their units. It's a good mechanic. It just currently lacks some counter-play. Previously, you just flew Mutas into it or Blinked Stalkers under it and destroyed the drop. I'd rather Blizzard ADDED counter-play as opposed to removing the mechanic. And I'd rather it be a counter-play that required some skill to manage as opposed to "well, here's something that shoots air and moves twice as fast as your Medivacs, so you're not getting away if I don't want you to".
Something like having Fungals doing more damage to Medivacs would be cool, since they're no longer instant cast, it would require micro from both sides. Or perhaps Fungal applies a debuff like Parasite where the unit cannot be picked up until it's been removed via heal (or for a set duration). That way, once you've been Fungaled, you can't pick up the entire group right away and the threat of that drop returning later is diminished.
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Wow just came back from watching 3 hours of Jaedong stream. I SAW A TOTAL OF ONE TANK IN 3 HOURS!!! And only because his opponent stationed it as base defense vs Ultras.
Why are you such a big liar and retard Dustin Browder?!
User was warned for this post
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buff corruptor damage vs armored. they're just so bad now at everything except killing colossus and stopping drops. it wouldn't be so bad if there were another option for a/a or g/a but as it's been said before a gazillion times, infestor double nerf requires a buff to corruptors in some form. they just do no damage to armored air. specifically a ZvP problem.
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For all you screaming that sc2 is horribly imbalanced compared to BW. Please do your research. If you took a timeline of BW major Korean championships and lined up the dates of BW And SC2, July would have just won zergs first title. Compared to about 20 titles for toss/Terran. This fact alone means y'all need to cut back on the balance whine and general QQ big time.
Don't be a part of this religion if you ain't read the bible!
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I don't know I just think storms need to get out of the game <3 <3
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On March 21 2013 05:20 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 04:16 Rabiator wrote:On March 21 2013 04:05 Umpteen wrote: I guess I must have imagined all those cool games I just watched where the better player won. The game (SC2) has been about luck all the time. You had to be lucky to look at your Marines when the Banelings started rolling in, you had to be lucky to not move your bio blob forward too much to be split by forcefields, you had to be lucky to catch that doom drop of the Terrans ... Sure enough you can make up for that with skill and experience, BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL. Everyone else gets to roll the dice because the game is too fast at killing stuff due to too many units on the battlefield in too small an area. In BW you had drops as well, but there was enough time to react for everyone and the same is true for anything else you can come up with in a game between players of equal skill, but in SC2 the massive numbers and super tight formation simply kills that and replaces it with LUCK. Since there are more non-pros playing the game than there are pros it is safe to say that it is a game more about luck than strategy. Your overdoing it Rabiator, I understand what your saying even though i don't agree with most of it. But dude it's not that those banelings could teleport on your marines. You can watch the minimap, have a marine in front etc. You arent one of the wood league, right? Watching the minimap isnt that easy for people at the lower end of the scale. If you understand the "problem" then maybe you could argue with the "unit denity problem" and maybe say that it is wrong. That is the core of it all and the reason for the need for 12 unit selection limit and a forced spreading of units while moving.
On March 21 2013 07:04 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 21:15 Rabiator wrote:On March 20 2013 19:56 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote: People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups. Well, I guess I'm a lazy bum for not preferring an unintuitive interface restriction revolving around the arbitrary number of 12. Maybe I should stop being lazy and start playing a mechanically challenging game with no production queues, no control group hotkeys, no rally points, hotkey requirements for every command, and a 4-unit selection limit. Surely such arbitrary interface restrictions should greatly improve my gaming experience. You completely miss the point ... it might be NECESSARY for BALANCING REASONS to limit the number of selected units to 12 because of the "unit density problem". Just a quick reminder about that problem: A Marine and a Stalker have roughly the same dps. Their differences in health, armor and mobility is balanced with the differing cost. The problem starts to appear when you have MANY Marines against a mediocre amount of Stalkers ... for the same cost. Since you can "stack" roughly 3 Marines in the space each Stalker occupies you end up with a vastly superior Marine force which has three times the dps. As long as the numbers stay small the Stalkers can win and use their shield regeneration, but as soon as numbers increase the Marines will have a far bigger power. The only thing that changes is NUMBER OF UNITS, but in the process the balance shifts from "balanced" to "totally one-sided". This is BAD because it makes the game harder to balance due to the shifting power depending upon numbers. If you dont see it and rather want to keep your stupid unlimited unit selection and super tight pathing then you are too lazy. A limit on number of units is NOT unintuitive, you are just too lazy to split your units into squads. You're wrong, scaling factor was always there, units jumped from zero to hero with numbers all the time in bw. Like, early in the game marines are the weakest unit to have with paper HP, totally countered by zealots for cost. Later in the game, BW marines are just as unbeatable as in SC2, barring some kind of AoE (go beat a bio terran with just zealots and dragoons, hint: you won't). Or zealots supposed to be a direct counter to tanks (and they did on a small scale), but being completely pointless without support once terran reached a critical mass of tanks. Those critical mass scenarios are what makes the game deep and interesting. The thing is that SC2 makes it EASY for this "massing up of Marines" to occur while you kinda had to work for it in BW. Since Marines are 1 supply only they take up A LOT of the control groups if you have a lot of them and that doesnt leave much for the rest of your army. You still needed a few control groups for your comsats (I had 2-3 usually) and you are left with "control group space" for maybe 70 Marines ... which did not even stack perfectly tight when you tried moving them closer.
In BW you had to WORK for your maximized damage output. Mutalisk micro was A SKILL OF THE PLAYER, Reaver dropping was A SKILL OF THE PLAYER ... in SC2 they really get the "grab all your units and then move them into the enemy and win if you have more than he does" for free. 12 unit selection limit and forced unit spreading while moving really push the skill requirement back into the game while giving the chance to create a defenders advantage by meticulously stacking your defensive units in a tight formation.
Even if BW wasn't perfect either it was far better than the "economy- and production-boosted unlimited unit selecting and perfectly tight moving SC2". They managed to make Stalkers and Marines fairly balanced, but only because they invented the crutches of Blink and Forcefield. Both of them require a lot of skill to use properly and this is bad for the balance in lower leagues and at least Forcefield has been at the center of a lot of whining AND it makes certain map features rather OP even in progamer level when they can simply block off the main base of their enemy and kill it easily.
The way I see it is that we would be far better off with a much easier to balance game which had a far lower unit concentration and fewer crutches disguised as "fun abilities". Kids these days have become lazy and dont want to work for their personal skills ... kinda like WoW was made ever easier (and more boring) to play by adding raid and dungeon finders.
Thank you for actually ARGUING with my core point ...
On March 20 2013 21:42 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 21:15 Rabiator wrote:On March 20 2013 19:56 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote: People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups. Well, I guess I'm a lazy bum for not preferring an unintuitive interface restriction revolving around the arbitrary number of 12. Maybe I should stop being lazy and start playing a mechanically challenging game with no production queues, no control group hotkeys, no rally points, hotkey requirements for every command, and a 4-unit selection limit. Surely such arbitrary interface restrictions should greatly improve my gaming experience. You completely miss the point ... it might be NECESSARY for BALANCING REASONS to limit the number of selected units to 12 because of the "unit density problem". There is no real reason whatsoever that you would require it for balancing reasons. That would just be lazy balancing, and making the game worse because they would be too lazy to do proper balancing (luckily Blizzard doesnt seem to be inclines to ever introduce such a horrible idea). I got another balancing idea: Currently Terran bio is too strong (just as example). What if at random intervals your screen would become black for 2 seconds? And we increase the chance it happens when units start dying. I don't think I have to argue that bio is pretty high on the list of micro-intensive compositions. So we can nerf that by blacking out your screen for a few seconds at a time, and then relatively often during fights. That way bio becomes alot less effective, and for example banelings become a way better counter. And if you disagree you are just too lazy to remember where your units were before your screen turned black. BW must have been excruciating to play ... (it wasnt). BW must have been terribly dull to watch ... (it isnt). Maybe the saying of your parents is true that "kids these days arent as tough as we were back then" ... (apparently so).
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On March 21 2013 06:25 cmcaneff5502 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:09 TheDwf wrote:Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch one month after the Queen patch: On August 20 2012 01:40 Giantt wrote: The problem of most Terran players in my opinion is that they refuse to change their mindset. They go for "old strategies" - bio, tank marine, mech, variations of the mentioned, and drill with it until the game is decided by battle. Very rarely and very few players ever think about transitioning to starport or they do after the game has already been decided. They have little experience in these situations and fail most of the time - thats normal, dont cry about it. It takes practice to be good at it. There are already a few players that are good at it but majority are shouting about imbalance. MVP just showed today that it is doable vs Vortix and Nerchio. It would take some months for the rest of the terrans to learn. ( Source.) TLDR: Terrans don't adapt. Give it time. Mvp beating euro Zergs proves that game is fine. Giantt on Broodlords/Infestors post-Queen patch sevens months after the Queen patch: Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind. ( Source.) TLDR: Terrans and Protoss don't adapt. Give it time. Giantt on the Widow mine one week after HotS release: On March 21 2013 01:47 Giantt wrote: Widow mine is the most obviously OP thing that has ever been in the game since WoL Beta's end. The fact that it can kill overseers is ridiculous - no way to deal with widow mines on more than 1 screen at a time because Z has to move the overseer one inch at a time or risk losing it. Given the current cost of overseers simply seeing widow mines makes Z burn 200-300 gas just to see. The widow mine is too efficient vs everything. Imo it should either have big damage on 1 target and really small splash dmg and radius or the opposite but not both as it does now. TLDR: Widow Mine is the most ridiculous thing in the universe. Several months after the Queen/Overlord patch, when European Zergs are allowed to play several levels above their real skill, everything is still fine; we need time, we need more time. Yet suddenly, when something problematic occurs for your race, you already know, one week after release, that Zergs adapted perfectly and are playing flawlessly against it, which of course means the thing is completely broken. Strong credibility you have there, my friend. Ahhhh this made my day. This is what every single balance thread is--people being hypocritical depending on if they feel advantaged or disadvantaged. Masters kids struggle with adapting, and will eventually figure it out after pros do, while whining the whole way though. Give pros time to figure it out; this Giantt kid's original advice is pretty good.
Don't know theDwf is guilty of hypocrisy or not, but it is hilarious to see Giantt's huge attitude turn around depending on whether if it is his race on the chopping block or not.
Zerg was really really strong in WoL. I don't think that can be denied. You could see the control/micro/macro difference when Europeans Zerg played against Koreans Zergs in WoL. They lost. Yet surprisingly they suddenly had decent performances against Korean Toss and Terran...
HOTS who knows. Probably Terran is OP. But let's see if the metagame shifts a bit or not. Surely we can wait 2 months or so when we give a year to Zergs. Especially since Life just won the first major HOTS tournament, widow mines and medivac drops not withstanding.
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Hm honestly I don't think zerg is as weak as a lot of zergs say they are. I am a zerg player but I feel most zergs are playing hots incorrectly and thus dying to stuff.
For example there are some zergs who go roach/hydra/viper. It was good in beta, a good toss DOES NOT lose to this anymore. Roach/hydra is just such a trash composition that the later the game goes on the protoss should not lose. That is verse roach/hydra.
Zergs need to realize (it took me until january iirc) that roach/hydra is not the go to composition. They need to start expirementing and using swarmhosts or mutalisks when the toss doesn't go stargate. Voidrays are imo still to strong, but the voidray/templar composition is not unbeatable. I have beaten this many times (and have beaten Puck who does this all the time) as well.
imo zergs need to start using ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper late game zvp vs voidray/templar/colossi. The ultra/swarmhosts can tank damage and dish it out to the colo/templar while hydras deal with voidrays. This works really well. I RARELY lose late game zvp. Where most zergs say protoss imba, I seriously almost never lose in a long zvp game and when I do it's not because of balance, it's because I fucked up and I know where I fucked up to lose the game.
zvt I was with the zergs saying widow mines op, terran op and so on. Then I started experimenting like I did back in beta. For example I have a really sick zvt win %, 91% win rate on NA, 70% on korea (on korea I have over 30+ zvt games and I have beaten GM korean terrans). I am using muta/ling/bane into swarmhost while teching to hive, about 10 swarmhosts. This is very strong verse bio + widow mine.
When I thought of this composition I thought it would be god awful, I feel invincible in zvt right now. I as of right now rarely lose zvt once my swarmhosts are out.
Zerg might be underpowered, but if they are it is not anywhere near as bad as everyone makes it out to be, if they are underpowered it's really not that bad at all.
Before anyone asks I am GM on NA and high masters on KR.
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On March 21 2013 15:25 blade55555 wrote: Hm honestly I don't think zerg is as weak as a lot of zergs say they are. I am a zerg player but I feel most zergs are playing hots incorrectly and thus dying to stuff.
For example there are some zergs who go roach/hydra/viper. It was good in beta, a good toss DOES NOT lose to this anymore. Roach/hydra is just such a trash composition that the later the game goes on the protoss should not lose. That is verse roach/hydra.
Zergs need to realize (it took me until january iirc) that roach/hydra is not the go to composition. They need to start expirementing and using swarmhosts or mutalisks when the toss doesn't go stargate. Voidrays are imo still to strong, but the voidray/templar composition is not unbeatable. I have beaten this many times (and have beaten Puck who does this all the time) as well.
imo zergs need to start using ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper late game zvp vs voidray/templar/colossi. The ultra/swarmhosts can tank damage and dish it out to the colo/templar while hydras deal with voidrays. This works really well. I RARELY lose late game zvp. Where most zergs say protoss imba, I seriously almost never lose in a long zvp game and when I do it's not because of balance, it's because I fucked up and I know where I fucked up to lose the game.
zvt I was with the zergs saying widow mines op, terran op and so on. Then I started experimenting like I did back in beta. For example I have a really sick zvt win %, 91% win rate on NA, 70% on korea (on korea I have over 30+ zvt games and I have beaten GM korean terrans). I am using muta/ling/bane into swarmhost while teching to hive, about 10 swarmhosts. This is very strong verse bio + widow mine.
When I thought of this composition I thought it would be god awful, I feel invincible in zvt right now. I as of right now rarely lose zvt once my swarmhosts are out.
Zerg might be underpowered, but if they are it is not anywhere near as bad as everyone makes it out to be, if they are underpowered it's really not that bad at all.
Before anyone asks I am GM on NA and high masters on KR.
You pretty much got it spot on. Every TvZ lately with bio + mine lately that i've played or bio + anything Zergs just realized "oh, mass ling/bane + muta kills that without even much micro" and then they go into the mega buff ultras.
Ling/bane/muta into mega ultra is ridic at the moment. Marine/tank is now obsolete and bio+mine sucks just as hard against it once the ultras are out or if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mine ai + manual detonate banelings when appropriate.
More Terrans going to be going back to mech soon i think. But yah, Zerg is just as powerful as the other races right now and there could even be arguments that as the game is more figured out Zerg will reign supreme again.
A lot of people will hate to hear this, especially with the fervor around "T OP" right now, but as the game gets figured out more Terran gets weaker because of being reliant on harrass that's reliant on "doing damage." That's why it's good they wait and see because right now it's prob a "learn to play" issue for all of us.
As for speed medivacs...they basically broke TvT mech and openings. It's weird because i think P/Z have more ways to deal with speed medivacs than Terran does. Planetary nexus, spine/spore, lings running around, speed muta, feedback, blink stalker.
Terran vs Terran right now there's basically no drawback to always building 1 medivac with your opening. And bio vs mech TvT is looking to massively favor bio or bio/tank because you can't afford to build 20 missile turrets just to deny 4 speedivacs lol. Though a lot of that could also have to do with how far away the thirds are on each map and how there's a lot of air space on all maps.
The only example i have of how ridiculous speedivacs are vs mech in TvT is when i played demuslim once, maxed out on mech vs bio, scanned and saw him load up about 12-13 dropships, saw the direction they were coming from and he speed boosts INTO 8 vikings and 5 missile turrets and manages to be able to unload half of his dropships into my base...
lol
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On March 21 2013 07:04 BluzMan wrote: 200/200 games are not RTS. The game of "dump your army in the most cost-efficient was possible and remax faster than your opponent" is not fun (and it favors zerg with their unique ability to store production capability with inject larva), it leads to pointless engagements and abuse of production mechanics and it's not something I want StarCraft to be. Seriously, dumping your army so you can remax on different units that work better vs your enemy's current composition is the dumbest thing ever, you should be using your units to achieve strategical goals, not throwing them away.
Then what the hell was TvP in SC1? Protoss in the late game would often lose far more units than the Terran in an engagement. They relied on having more Gateways to remax faster than the Terrans. 200/200 games were common in SC1.
The only difference was what you mentioned with dumping an army to get a different set of units. But that's because in SC1, the particular units you got were already set in stone.
You don't go Marines against a Protoss. You don't go Marines against a Terran. You don't use Queens... ever. Most race matchups boiled down to 4-5 units that would be used. TvP was ST/Vulture/Goliath/Vessel vs. Zealot/Dragoon/Observer/Templar/Arbiter. That's it. Maybe sometimes the Protoss goes Carriers. Maybe. You might get a Reaver in there to harass them at the mineral line, but after a certain point, that Reaver isn't used anymore.
On March 21 2013 14:33 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 05:20 Zorgaz wrote:On March 21 2013 04:16 Rabiator wrote:On March 21 2013 04:05 Umpteen wrote: I guess I must have imagined all those cool games I just watched where the better player won. The game (SC2) has been about luck all the time. You had to be lucky to look at your Marines when the Banelings started rolling in, you had to be lucky to not move your bio blob forward too much to be split by forcefields, you had to be lucky to catch that doom drop of the Terrans ... Sure enough you can make up for that with skill and experience, BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL. Everyone else gets to roll the dice because the game is too fast at killing stuff due to too many units on the battlefield in too small an area. In BW you had drops as well, but there was enough time to react for everyone and the same is true for anything else you can come up with in a game between players of equal skill, but in SC2 the massive numbers and super tight formation simply kills that and replaces it with LUCK. Since there are more non-pros playing the game than there are pros it is safe to say that it is a game more about luck than strategy. Your overdoing it Rabiator, I understand what your saying even though i don't agree with most of it. But dude it's not that those banelings could teleport on your marines. You can watch the minimap, have a marine in front etc. You arent one of the wood league, right? Watching the minimap isnt that easy for people at the lower end of the scale. If you understand the "problem" then maybe you could argue with the "unit denity problem" and maybe say that it is wrong. That is the core of it all and the reason for the need for 12 unit selection limit and a forced spreading of units while moving.
We don't balance the game around "wood league". Punishing people for not having minimap awareness and so forth is the only way to make them learn it.
On March 21 2013 14:33 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 21:42 Sissors wrote:On March 20 2013 21:15 Rabiator wrote:On March 20 2013 19:56 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 20 2013 16:41 Rabiator wrote: People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups. Well, I guess I'm a lazy bum for not preferring an unintuitive interface restriction revolving around the arbitrary number of 12. Maybe I should stop being lazy and start playing a mechanically challenging game with no production queues, no control group hotkeys, no rally points, hotkey requirements for every command, and a 4-unit selection limit. Surely such arbitrary interface restrictions should greatly improve my gaming experience. You completely miss the point ... it might be NECESSARY for BALANCING REASONS to limit the number of selected units to 12 because of the "unit density problem". There is no real reason whatsoever that you would require it for balancing reasons. That would just be lazy balancing, and making the game worse because they would be too lazy to do proper balancing (luckily Blizzard doesnt seem to be inclines to ever introduce such a horrible idea). I got another balancing idea: Currently Terran bio is too strong (just as example). What if at random intervals your screen would become black for 2 seconds? And we increase the chance it happens when units start dying. I don't think I have to argue that bio is pretty high on the list of micro-intensive compositions. So we can nerf that by blacking out your screen for a few seconds at a time, and then relatively often during fights. That way bio becomes alot less effective, and for example banelings become a way better counter. And if you disagree you are just too lazy to remember where your units were before your screen turned black. BW must have been excruciating to play ... (it wasnt). BW must have been terribly dull to watch ... (it isnt). Maybe the saying of your parents is true that "kids these days arent as tough as we were back then" ... (apparently so).
... I don't see how that's an argument against his analogy. You're suggesting deliberately gimping the interface, for the sole purpose of making it harder for the player to do the thing the player wants to do: command his units. Not because it's necessary for any kind of performance reasons. But because it would make the game more balanced.
He's using your argument, just with a different form of interface gimping. Both of them would certainly make the game harder by making micro more difficult. But blanking out the screen is really not that much more ridiculous than limiting unit selection. They're both incredibly artificial. They're both interface restrictions. And they're both cheap ways of making the game harder. Any idiot can say, "just make the interface worse; then it'll be harder." It takes real game design skill to make the game harder by making the game harder.
My feeling is this. If your reasoning leads you to the conclusion that the only way to balance the game is to gimp the interface, then one of two things is true. Either your reasoning is incorrect; or the entire game genre is broken as hell and should be abandoned.
I don't see MOBA players running around saying that they should gimp the interface to make the game harder. Though I might be mistaken.
If Marines can't work with unlimited unit selection, then Marines need to be removed. You fix the units, not the interface. You fix the game rules to work with the interface, not the other way around. And if that mean some Sacred Cow units have to be slaughtered, well we're having Sacred Hamburgers tonight!
As for SC1 being "excruciating" to play, pain is in the eye of the beholder. If you've been suffering your entire life, how would you know? It's only when it's taken away do you really notice its absence. And when it comes back, it hurts all the worse.
SC1 is a lot more painful for me to play now than before SC2 existed. There's a reason for that.
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On March 21 2013 15:34 avilo wrote: More Terrans going to be going back to mech soon i think. But yah, Zerg is just as powerful as the other races right now and there could even be arguments that as the game is more figured out Zerg will reign supreme again.
I don't actually think mech is a truly viable build right now. With mutas buffed and zergs tending to get extremely large numbers of them, a meching player can't leave their base. Even with multiple thors and widow mines, mutas could deal damage if they have three bases to target and the zerg splits well. And with vipers, swarm hosts, spine crawlers, etc a late game zerg could stall a mech army for an extremely long time, while using lings to ravage the terran's economy. Maybe I'm completely missing something, but it seems to me that going straight mech is almost completely inviable as a build right now.
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On March 21 2013 17:39 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 15:34 avilo wrote: More Terrans going to be going back to mech soon i think. But yah, Zerg is just as powerful as the other races right now and there could even be arguments that as the game is more figured out Zerg will reign supreme again. I don't actually think mech is a truly viable build right now. With mutas buffed and zergs tending to get extremely large numbers of them, a meching player can't leave their base. Even with multiple thors and widow mines, mutas could deal damage if they have three bases to target and the zerg splits well. And with vipers, swarm hosts, spine crawlers, etc a late game zerg could stall a mech army for an extremely long time, while using lings to ravage the terran's economy. Maybe I'm completely missing something, but it seems to me that going straight mech is almost completely inviable as a build right now.
I disagree with avilo pretty heavily on terrans going back to mech.
But you must be doing something wrong, going mass muta vs a meching terran is suicidal to the max. Thors are super good, putting widow mines by turrets is also a great way to deal with them. Terran has more ways to deal with muta then in wol, and terran never struggled vs mutalisk play either.
Mech is a lot harder to pull off in hots then wol, if you don't spread siege tanks or anything viper + w/e unit comp will roll you over. It's a lot harder to do but not impossible. But Bio + widow mine is much stronger imo, I can't remember the last time I lost to mech let alone when I faced it though tbh.
Also terrans late game is a LOT stronger then it was in wol not just because of medivacs but the one composition they could never fight in wol was bl/corr/infestor. That was why late game tvz was so zerg favored, with those gone zvt late game is imo pretty damn balanced now. New ultras are good sure, but their not broken or overpowered unless terran is going pure marine then yeah they might seem that way.
Widow mine + bio still deals with ultralisks very well and zerg needs to have infestors and get fungals off or bio will kite ultra forever. + speed medivacs and imo even when zergs start dealing with early harass a lot better, terran will not be in the situation they were in wol where they could not beat zerg late game.
Now this is assuming that no big nerfs/buffs are handed over where that situation may arise, as of right now late game zvt is NOT zerg favored like it was in wol not even close, it's pretty balanced imo especially with how sick the new raven is.
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On March 21 2013 13:09 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: For all you screaming that sc2 is horribly imbalanced compared to BW. Please do your research. If you took a timeline of BW major Korean championships and lined up the dates of BW And SC2, July would have just won zergs first title. Compared to about 20 titles for toss/Terran. This fact alone means y'all need to cut back on the balance whine and general QQ big time.
Don't be a part of this religion if you ain't read the bible!
I don't know where you got your research from, but first of all Zerg was very present even in the beginning of Broodwar. Out of 10 OSL finals from the start, we had 7 with a Zerg in it. Out of 10 MSL finals we had 6 with zerg in it. 2004-2006 we had 8 MSLs and 5 were won by Zerg. Also you must take into consideration that maps played a big role in Broodwar, a lot more than in Starcraft 2. We had maps that were utterly in favor and/or abused of certain races and did help greatly. Overall Broodwar obviously is the far more balanced game, but that also took a lot more time and especially more games to achieve.
Starcraft 2 is on a good path, but not as balanced as Broodwar. Also if you want to talk balance, even in 2000 and years after, there were lots of tournaments that you probably don't call major but a lot of people would and would be right. OSL and MSL were not the only big tournaments. Q-Starleague(s), WCG. 2nd Q-Starleague had a ZvZ finals as well as the WCG (2000). Overall at no point in time I would call a race to be inferior but the maps to be in favor of one of them.
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On March 21 2013 17:47 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 17:39 Terrasmith wrote:On March 21 2013 15:34 avilo wrote: More Terrans going to be going back to mech soon i think. But yah, Zerg is just as powerful as the other races right now and there could even be arguments that as the game is more figured out Zerg will reign supreme again. I don't actually think mech is a truly viable build right now. With mutas buffed and zergs tending to get extremely large numbers of them, a meching player can't leave their base. Even with multiple thors and widow mines, mutas could deal damage if they have three bases to target and the zerg splits well. And with vipers, swarm hosts, spine crawlers, etc a late game zerg could stall a mech army for an extremely long time, while using lings to ravage the terran's economy. Maybe I'm completely missing something, but it seems to me that going straight mech is almost completely inviable as a build right now. I disagree with avilo pretty heavily on terrans going back to mech. But you must be doing something wrong, going mass muta vs a meching terran is suicidal to the max. Thors are super good, putting widow mines by turrets is also a great way to deal with them. Terran has more ways to deal with muta then in wol, and terran never struggled vs mutalisk play either. Mech is a lot harder to pull off in hots then wol, if you don't spread siege tanks or anything viper + w/e unit comp will roll you over. It's a lot harder to do but not impossible. But Bio + widow mine is much stronger imo, I can't remember the last time I lost to mech let alone when I faced it though tbh. Also terrans late game is a LOT stronger then it was in wol not just because of medivacs but the one composition they could never fight in wol was bl/corr/infestor. That was why late game tvz was so zerg favored, with those gone zvt late game is imo pretty damn balanced now. New ultras are good sure, but their not broken or overpowered unless terran is going pure marine then yeah they might seem that way. Widow mine + bio still deals with ultralisks very well and zerg needs to have infestors and get fungals off or bio will kite ultra forever. + speed medivacs and imo even when zergs start dealing with early harass a lot better, terran will not be in the situation they were in wol where they could not beat zerg late game. Now this is assuming that no big nerfs/buffs are handed over where that situation may arise, as of right now late game zvt is NOT zerg favored like it was in wol not even close, it's pretty balanced imo especially with how sick the new raven is.
Have you played vs the new mech style though? Mech + mass widow mines to deal with roach/hydra/viper. Viper I agree is horribly imbalanced vs mech, it can make the mech effective army supply go from 140 down to 0 with just 4-5 vipers.
But widow mine + mech can get around that because the mines aren't affected by the cloud. I'm talking like 15-20 widow mines essentially replacing hellion supply.
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On March 21 2013 11:56 golgo_13 wrote: Wow just came back from watching 3 hours of Jaedong stream. I SAW A TOTAL OF ONE TANK IN 3 HOURS!!! And only because his opponent stationed it as base defense vs Ultras.
Why are you such a big liar and retard Dustin Browder?!
User was warned for this post
Dustin Browder, making mech viable one expansion at a time!
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On March 21 2013 19:33 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 17:47 blade55555 wrote:On March 21 2013 17:39 Terrasmith wrote:On March 21 2013 15:34 avilo wrote: More Terrans going to be going back to mech soon i think. But yah, Zerg is just as powerful as the other races right now and there could even be arguments that as the game is more figured out Zerg will reign supreme again. I don't actually think mech is a truly viable build right now. With mutas buffed and zergs tending to get extremely large numbers of them, a meching player can't leave their base. Even with multiple thors and widow mines, mutas could deal damage if they have three bases to target and the zerg splits well. And with vipers, swarm hosts, spine crawlers, etc a late game zerg could stall a mech army for an extremely long time, while using lings to ravage the terran's economy. Maybe I'm completely missing something, but it seems to me that going straight mech is almost completely inviable as a build right now. I disagree with avilo pretty heavily on terrans going back to mech. But you must be doing something wrong, going mass muta vs a meching terran is suicidal to the max. Thors are super good, putting widow mines by turrets is also a great way to deal with them. Terran has more ways to deal with muta then in wol, and terran never struggled vs mutalisk play either. Mech is a lot harder to pull off in hots then wol, if you don't spread siege tanks or anything viper + w/e unit comp will roll you over. It's a lot harder to do but not impossible. But Bio + widow mine is much stronger imo, I can't remember the last time I lost to mech let alone when I faced it though tbh. Also terrans late game is a LOT stronger then it was in wol not just because of medivacs but the one composition they could never fight in wol was bl/corr/infestor. That was why late game tvz was so zerg favored, with those gone zvt late game is imo pretty damn balanced now. New ultras are good sure, but their not broken or overpowered unless terran is going pure marine then yeah they might seem that way. Widow mine + bio still deals with ultralisks very well and zerg needs to have infestors and get fungals off or bio will kite ultra forever. + speed medivacs and imo even when zergs start dealing with early harass a lot better, terran will not be in the situation they were in wol where they could not beat zerg late game. Now this is assuming that no big nerfs/buffs are handed over where that situation may arise, as of right now late game zvt is NOT zerg favored like it was in wol not even close, it's pretty balanced imo especially with how sick the new raven is. Have you played vs the new mech style though? Mech + mass widow mines to deal with roach/hydra/viper. Viper I agree is horribly imbalanced vs mech, it can make the mech effective army supply go from 140 down to 0 with just 4-5 vipers. But widow mine + mech can get around that because the mines aren't affected by the cloud. I'm talking like 15-20 widow mines essentially replacing hellion supply.
Yeah, Tank/Thor + Widow Mine is really good vs Roach/Hydra/Viper.. They will eventualy switch to Broodlords, but you already have Thors + Mines, so reactored starports in case and there is not much Zerg can do..
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On March 21 2013 20:17 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 19:33 avilo wrote:On March 21 2013 17:47 blade55555 wrote:On March 21 2013 17:39 Terrasmith wrote:On March 21 2013 15:34 avilo wrote: More Terrans going to be going back to mech soon i think. But yah, Zerg is just as powerful as the other races right now and there could even be arguments that as the game is more figured out Zerg will reign supreme again. I don't actually think mech is a truly viable build right now. With mutas buffed and zergs tending to get extremely large numbers of them, a meching player can't leave their base. Even with multiple thors and widow mines, mutas could deal damage if they have three bases to target and the zerg splits well. And with vipers, swarm hosts, spine crawlers, etc a late game zerg could stall a mech army for an extremely long time, while using lings to ravage the terran's economy. Maybe I'm completely missing something, but it seems to me that going straight mech is almost completely inviable as a build right now. I disagree with avilo pretty heavily on terrans going back to mech. But you must be doing something wrong, going mass muta vs a meching terran is suicidal to the max. Thors are super good, putting widow mines by turrets is also a great way to deal with them. Terran has more ways to deal with muta then in wol, and terran never struggled vs mutalisk play either. Mech is a lot harder to pull off in hots then wol, if you don't spread siege tanks or anything viper + w/e unit comp will roll you over. It's a lot harder to do but not impossible. But Bio + widow mine is much stronger imo, I can't remember the last time I lost to mech let alone when I faced it though tbh. Also terrans late game is a LOT stronger then it was in wol not just because of medivacs but the one composition they could never fight in wol was bl/corr/infestor. That was why late game tvz was so zerg favored, with those gone zvt late game is imo pretty damn balanced now. New ultras are good sure, but their not broken or overpowered unless terran is going pure marine then yeah they might seem that way. Widow mine + bio still deals with ultralisks very well and zerg needs to have infestors and get fungals off or bio will kite ultra forever. + speed medivacs and imo even when zergs start dealing with early harass a lot better, terran will not be in the situation they were in wol where they could not beat zerg late game. Now this is assuming that no big nerfs/buffs are handed over where that situation may arise, as of right now late game zvt is NOT zerg favored like it was in wol not even close, it's pretty balanced imo especially with how sick the new raven is. Have you played vs the new mech style though? Mech + mass widow mines to deal with roach/hydra/viper. Viper I agree is horribly imbalanced vs mech, it can make the mech effective army supply go from 140 down to 0 with just 4-5 vipers. But widow mine + mech can get around that because the mines aren't affected by the cloud. I'm talking like 15-20 widow mines essentially replacing hellion supply. Yeah, Tank/Thor + Widow Mine is really good vs Roach/Hydra/Viper.. They will eventualy switch to Broodlords, but you already have Thors + Mines, so reactored starports in case and there is not much Zerg can do.. With the infinite gas hack, Tank/Thor/Mine seems a total legit composition to me!
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On March 21 2013 21:31 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 20:17 Everlong wrote:On March 21 2013 19:33 avilo wrote:On March 21 2013 17:47 blade55555 wrote:On March 21 2013 17:39 Terrasmith wrote:On March 21 2013 15:34 avilo wrote: More Terrans going to be going back to mech soon i think. But yah, Zerg is just as powerful as the other races right now and there could even be arguments that as the game is more figured out Zerg will reign supreme again. I don't actually think mech is a truly viable build right now. With mutas buffed and zergs tending to get extremely large numbers of them, a meching player can't leave their base. Even with multiple thors and widow mines, mutas could deal damage if they have three bases to target and the zerg splits well. And with vipers, swarm hosts, spine crawlers, etc a late game zerg could stall a mech army for an extremely long time, while using lings to ravage the terran's economy. Maybe I'm completely missing something, but it seems to me that going straight mech is almost completely inviable as a build right now. I disagree with avilo pretty heavily on terrans going back to mech. But you must be doing something wrong, going mass muta vs a meching terran is suicidal to the max. Thors are super good, putting widow mines by turrets is also a great way to deal with them. Terran has more ways to deal with muta then in wol, and terran never struggled vs mutalisk play either. Mech is a lot harder to pull off in hots then wol, if you don't spread siege tanks or anything viper + w/e unit comp will roll you over. It's a lot harder to do but not impossible. But Bio + widow mine is much stronger imo, I can't remember the last time I lost to mech let alone when I faced it though tbh. Also terrans late game is a LOT stronger then it was in wol not just because of medivacs but the one composition they could never fight in wol was bl/corr/infestor. That was why late game tvz was so zerg favored, with those gone zvt late game is imo pretty damn balanced now. New ultras are good sure, but their not broken or overpowered unless terran is going pure marine then yeah they might seem that way. Widow mine + bio still deals with ultralisks very well and zerg needs to have infestors and get fungals off or bio will kite ultra forever. + speed medivacs and imo even when zergs start dealing with early harass a lot better, terran will not be in the situation they were in wol where they could not beat zerg late game. Now this is assuming that no big nerfs/buffs are handed over where that situation may arise, as of right now late game zvt is NOT zerg favored like it was in wol not even close, it's pretty balanced imo especially with how sick the new raven is. Have you played vs the new mech style though? Mech + mass widow mines to deal with roach/hydra/viper. Viper I agree is horribly imbalanced vs mech, it can make the mech effective army supply go from 140 down to 0 with just 4-5 vipers. But widow mine + mech can get around that because the mines aren't affected by the cloud. I'm talking like 15-20 widow mines essentially replacing hellion supply. Yeah, Tank/Thor + Widow Mine is really good vs Roach/Hydra/Viper.. They will eventualy switch to Broodlords, but you already have Thors + Mines, so reactored starports in case and there is not much Zerg can do.. With the infinite gas hack, Tank/Thor/Mine seems a total legit composition to me! You're right, that 25 gas is totally what breaks the camels back. 5 mines for the price of one tank? Just can't afford them, give up already.
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On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote: I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded.
Z/P mechanics work differently than Terrans. P has feedback / planetary nexus / blink stalkers, Z has spine/spore defense + faster mutalisks + fungal.
Notice all of those insta-gib the drop or lock it down or shut it down.
For TvT...you have...the missile turret. If you're playing mech TvT that's basically all you have to stop drops that would be headed into your base. And now because of the speed boost if you want to play mech TvT you need many, many more turrets that you cannot afford because a bio Terran can literally speed boost over 5-6 turrets and guaranteed land his army into your base.
Anyone that plays mech vs bio often knows if you are backstabbed even once into your production the game is essentially over, especially on these maps with distant 3rds/4ths.
Just like void rays are a problem in PvP mirror right now because they out DPS stalkers + all ground and other units way too much...medivacs are a problem in TvT right now regardless of your style because they negate any defender advantage/terrain/any defense in place.
Something can be a problem in a mirror and not be in the other match-ups. Terran has ways to deal with void rays, so does Zerg (well perhaps not late late game), but it's the best thing or too good in the mirror.
If anyone read the Coach Park interview...if blizzard does change medivacs they should change the boost so there is a cost/risk to using it. Maybe have it drain the medivac's health, or drain energy - those are some things people in the community have throw around.
Everyone loves that aggressive play is possible, and HOTS definitely is more exciting to watch right now with mutas coming back, medivac drops being more viable, etc. but you know when something is ruining the mirror match-up or making it luck/coin-flip based it should be tweaked some.
For people that don't know, TvT right now basically any build you do is 10x better by making a medivac and putting anything inside of it, whether it's your first marines/hellions/widow mine, you get rewarded for blind aggression with no way to chase down the medivac or take it out (unless you get a lucky widow mine hit or the Terran fucks up). It's quite easy to luck out a win vs a superior Terran by doing this off 1 base right now.
Of course, we are still at the wait and see phase... even TvT...i think everyone can improve turret rings for mech vs bio by adding widow mines into the ring in places. The only problem with this though is it's a heavy cost at 2 supply to do this vs bio so it's inefficient.
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On March 21 2013 22:16 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote: I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded. Z/P mechanics work differently than Terrans. P has feedback / planetary nexus / blink stalkers, Z has spine/spore defense + faster mutalisks + fungal. Notice all of those insta-gib the drop or lock it down or shut it down. For TvT...you have...the missile turret. If you're playing mech TvT that's basically all you have to stop drops that would be headed into your base. And now because of the speed boost if you want to play mech TvT you need many, many more turrets that you cannot afford because a bio Terran can literally speed boost over 5-6 turrets and guaranteed land his army into your base. Anyone that plays mech vs bio often knows if you are backstabbed even once into your production the game is essentially over, especially on these maps with distant 3rds/4ths. Just like void rays are a problem in PvP mirror right now because they out DPS stalkers + all ground and other units way too much...medivacs are a problem in TvT right now regardless of your style because they negate any defender advantage/terrain/any defense in place. Something can be a problem in a mirror and not be in the other match-ups. Terran has ways to deal with void rays, so does Zerg (well perhaps not late late game), but it's the best thing or too good in the mirror. If anyone read the Coach Park interview...if blizzard does change medivacs they should change the boost so there is a cost/risk to using it. Maybe have it drain the medivac's health, or drain energy - those are some things people in the community have throw around. Everyone loves that aggressive play is possible, and HOTS definitely is more exciting to watch right now with mutas coming back, medivac drops being more viable, etc. but you know when something is ruining the mirror match-up or making it luck/coin-flip based it should be tweaked some. For people that don't know, TvT right now basically any build you do is 10x better by making a medivac and putting anything inside of it, whether it's your first marines/hellions/widow mine, you get rewarded for blind aggression with no way to chase down the medivac or take it out (unless you get a lucky widow mine hit or the Terran fucks up). It's quite easy to luck out a win vs a superior Terran by doing this off 1 base right now. Of course, we are still at the wait and see phase... even TvT...i think everyone can improve turret rings for mech vs bio by adding widow mines into the ring in places. The only problem with this though is it's a heavy cost at 2 supply to do this vs bio so it's inefficient.
Avilo, all you want is one playstyle you can use in everygame, where you won't need to adapt, to scout and to analyze what your opponent is doing ...
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^I've had success with putting well placed bunkers behind a normal amount of turrets. One bunker plus a normal amount of turrets kills two boosted medivacs, anyway. Add a small number of well-placed mine and it can be done IMO. With two bunks and some mines youre talking 14-16 supply for the main I'd say. That's the downside but at least mech is supply efficient.
And as you say it's too early to judge, therefore it's contradictory to bitch about tvt but tell zergs and tosses to have patience.
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On March 21 2013 22:19 E.L.V.I.S wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 22:16 avilo wrote:On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote: I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded. Z/P mechanics work differently than Terrans. P has feedback / planetary nexus / blink stalkers, Z has spine/spore defense + faster mutalisks + fungal. Notice all of those insta-gib the drop or lock it down or shut it down. For TvT...you have...the missile turret. If you're playing mech TvT that's basically all you have to stop drops that would be headed into your base. And now because of the speed boost if you want to play mech TvT you need many, many more turrets that you cannot afford because a bio Terran can literally speed boost over 5-6 turrets and guaranteed land his army into your base. Anyone that plays mech vs bio often knows if you are backstabbed even once into your production the game is essentially over, especially on these maps with distant 3rds/4ths. Just like void rays are a problem in PvP mirror right now because they out DPS stalkers + all ground and other units way too much...medivacs are a problem in TvT right now regardless of your style because they negate any defender advantage/terrain/any defense in place. Something can be a problem in a mirror and not be in the other match-ups. Terran has ways to deal with void rays, so does Zerg (well perhaps not late late game), but it's the best thing or too good in the mirror. If anyone read the Coach Park interview...if blizzard does change medivacs they should change the boost so there is a cost/risk to using it. Maybe have it drain the medivac's health, or drain energy - those are some things people in the community have throw around. Everyone loves that aggressive play is possible, and HOTS definitely is more exciting to watch right now with mutas coming back, medivac drops being more viable, etc. but you know when something is ruining the mirror match-up or making it luck/coin-flip based it should be tweaked some. For people that don't know, TvT right now basically any build you do is 10x better by making a medivac and putting anything inside of it, whether it's your first marines/hellions/widow mine, you get rewarded for blind aggression with no way to chase down the medivac or take it out (unless you get a lucky widow mine hit or the Terran fucks up). It's quite easy to luck out a win vs a superior Terran by doing this off 1 base right now. Of course, we are still at the wait and see phase... even TvT...i think everyone can improve turret rings for mech vs bio by adding widow mines into the ring in places. The only problem with this though is it's a heavy cost at 2 supply to do this vs bio so it's inefficient. Avilo, all you want is one playstyle you can use in everygame, where you won't need to adapt, to scout and to analyze what your opponent is doing ...
For once I am with Avilo on this one. The medivac needs a limit on the number of boosts it can do in set period of time. Right now it can pull off at least 2 every minute of game play, which is to many. If it is energy cool, building up charges, or a much longer cool down, there needs risk to using the medivac boost and a “loss” if the drop fails. The opposing player also needs the breathing room if they hold off two or more drops, rather than being under constant threat of boosted drops.
Its not a question if the boost should be awesome, but how many boost the player’s get in a set period of time.
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My overview: T: Medival boost need at least a research. Mine : Reduce life. No possibilities to transform transformer into helion.
P: Up gateway unit Decrease life or damage of oracle or delay tech. Nerf void damage Reduce hallucination cost Tempest shoot clever to no overkill.
Z: Swarm hots more damage put less range. Mutas : no idea. but something is wrong Hydra : too strong now, reduce speed out of creep. or range.
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I didn't see till last night, that mines have same HP as hydras?
Hp needs to be lower.
Medivac booster will probabaly just get a slight nerf.
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On March 21 2013 22:42 BerthaG wrote: My overview: T: Medival boost need at least a research. Mine : Reduce life. No possibilities to transform transformer into helion.
P: Up gateway unit Decrease life or damage of oracle or delay tech. Nerf void damage Reduce hallucination cost Tempest shoot clever to no overkill.
Z: Swarm hots more damage put less range. Mutas : no idea. but something is wrong Hydra : too strong now, reduce speed out of creep. or range.
Hydras don't need a nerf. They already require two upgrades and they still are so fragile.
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They should probably make the medivac take some small amount of damage when boosting or change how the boost accels so that it takes time for it to reach max speed.
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On March 21 2013 18:10 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 13:09 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: For all you screaming that sc2 is horribly imbalanced compared to BW. Please do your research. If you took a timeline of BW major Korean championships and lined up the dates of BW And SC2, July would have just won zergs first title. Compared to about 20 titles for toss/Terran. This fact alone means y'all need to cut back on the balance whine and general QQ big time.
Don't be a part of this religion if you ain't read the bible! I don't know where you got your research from, but first of all Zerg was very present even in the beginning of Broodwar. Out of 10 OSL finals from the start, we had 7 with a Zerg in it. Out of 10 MSL finals we had 6 with zerg in it. 2004-2006 we had 8 MSLs and 5 were won by Zerg. Also you must take into consideration that maps played a big role in Broodwar, a lot more than in Starcraft 2. We had maps that were utterly in favor and/or abused of certain races and did help greatly. Overall Broodwar obviously is the far more balanced game, but that also took a lot more time and especially more games to achieve. Starcraft 2 is on a good path, but not as balanced as Broodwar. Also if you want to talk balance, even in 2000 and years after, there were lots of tournaments that you probably don't call major but a lot of people would and would be right. OSL and MSL were not the only big tournaments. Q-Starleague(s), WCG. 2nd Q-Starleague had a ZvZ finals as well as the WCG (2000). Overall at no point in time I would call a race to be inferior but the maps to be in favor of one of them.
Yes Yell0w had something like 5 silver medals in OSL/MSL in that time period. Thanks for completely mis-reading my statement which was "at this point in SC2 JulyZerg would have just won the first major trophy for Zerg". I never said Zerg didn't exist at the highest level but imagine if after Fruitdealer's win in the first Open Season GSL if no-one had won a major championship playing as Z until ST-Life's recent victory at MLG. You would be seeing waves of complaints from angry Z netizens crying imbalance; in fact if that had happened I have no doubt that Z would have received some HEAVY buffs to compensate.
Major trophy= OSL/MSL. Technically a Z won the first OSL before it was actually called the OSL therefore I consider it irrelevant as it wasn't even the same name it was simply the "Progamer Korean Open".... but simply checking my research on wiki or quoting the Starcraft Bible "In July '04, JulyZerg became the first Zerg to win the OSL...".
I don't care about the other tournaments as I only wanted to use this as a reference for my statement in order to show how silly a statement like "SC2 is horribly broken compared to BW, it will never be as balanced, it will never be as good".
The first MSL zerg trophy was Savior in August 2005.
Even if you include those other tourneys the results are like 3 zerg champs and 30+ T/P champs.....
I am not saying current SC2 is more balanced than BW was what I am saying is that we shouldn't moan that SC2 is on a bad path in regards to balance because statistically we have had a more well-rounded balance than BW. Yes the maps probably made a huge difference but that just shows how SC2 mapmaking has evolved into a place with boring, neutral maps for the most part. And I do think as Blizzard learns from the mistakes in made(biggest one for me was not using tourney maps on ladder) we will see more custom maps coming to prominence with more unorthodox features which may or may not suit one race but will compensate for this by every race/playstyle having a few maps that they prefer.
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On March 21 2013 22:42 BerthaG wrote: Z: Swarm hots more damage put less range.
Swarmhost have 30 base dps, stimmed marines have 10,5 dps (liquipedia). If you can´t avoid them they will wreak havoc. I would not consider buffing their damage in any way.
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On March 21 2013 22:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 22:19 E.L.V.I.S wrote:On March 21 2013 22:16 avilo wrote:On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote: I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded. Z/P mechanics work differently than Terrans. P has feedback / planetary nexus / blink stalkers, Z has spine/spore defense + faster mutalisks + fungal. Notice all of those insta-gib the drop or lock it down or shut it down. For TvT...you have...the missile turret. If you're playing mech TvT that's basically all you have to stop drops that would be headed into your base. And now because of the speed boost if you want to play mech TvT you need many, many more turrets that you cannot afford because a bio Terran can literally speed boost over 5-6 turrets and guaranteed land his army into your base. Anyone that plays mech vs bio often knows if you are backstabbed even once into your production the game is essentially over, especially on these maps with distant 3rds/4ths. Just like void rays are a problem in PvP mirror right now because they out DPS stalkers + all ground and other units way too much...medivacs are a problem in TvT right now regardless of your style because they negate any defender advantage/terrain/any defense in place. Something can be a problem in a mirror and not be in the other match-ups. Terran has ways to deal with void rays, so does Zerg (well perhaps not late late game), but it's the best thing or too good in the mirror. If anyone read the Coach Park interview...if blizzard does change medivacs they should change the boost so there is a cost/risk to using it. Maybe have it drain the medivac's health, or drain energy - those are some things people in the community have throw around. Everyone loves that aggressive play is possible, and HOTS definitely is more exciting to watch right now with mutas coming back, medivac drops being more viable, etc. but you know when something is ruining the mirror match-up or making it luck/coin-flip based it should be tweaked some. For people that don't know, TvT right now basically any build you do is 10x better by making a medivac and putting anything inside of it, whether it's your first marines/hellions/widow mine, you get rewarded for blind aggression with no way to chase down the medivac or take it out (unless you get a lucky widow mine hit or the Terran fucks up). It's quite easy to luck out a win vs a superior Terran by doing this off 1 base right now. Of course, we are still at the wait and see phase... even TvT...i think everyone can improve turret rings for mech vs bio by adding widow mines into the ring in places. The only problem with this though is it's a heavy cost at 2 supply to do this vs bio so it's inefficient. Avilo, all you want is one playstyle you can use in everygame, where you won't need to adapt, to scout and to analyze what your opponent is doing ... For once I am with Avilo on this one. The medivac needs a limit on the number of boosts it can do in set period of time. Right now it can pull off at least 2 every minute of game play, which is to many. If it is energy cool, building up charges, or a much longer cool down, there needs risk to using the medivac boost and a “loss” if the drop fails. The opposing player also needs the breathing room if they hold off two or more drops, rather than being under constant threat of boosted drops. Its not a question if the boost should be awesome, but how many boost the player’s get in a set period of time.
Energy is probably the best idea. The addition of bio healing skewed terran drops to be vastly in favor of bio. Terran players used to drop tanks, goliaths and vultures as well in BW. I rarely see hellions/hellbats being dropped outside of an early rush. Siege tank and thor drops are almost non-existent.
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On March 22 2013 01:32 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 22:32 Plansix wrote:On March 21 2013 22:19 E.L.V.I.S wrote:On March 21 2013 22:16 avilo wrote:On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote: I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded. Z/P mechanics work differently than Terrans. P has feedback / planetary nexus / blink stalkers, Z has spine/spore defense + faster mutalisks + fungal. Notice all of those insta-gib the drop or lock it down or shut it down. For TvT...you have...the missile turret. If you're playing mech TvT that's basically all you have to stop drops that would be headed into your base. And now because of the speed boost if you want to play mech TvT you need many, many more turrets that you cannot afford because a bio Terran can literally speed boost over 5-6 turrets and guaranteed land his army into your base. Anyone that plays mech vs bio often knows if you are backstabbed even once into your production the game is essentially over, especially on these maps with distant 3rds/4ths. Just like void rays are a problem in PvP mirror right now because they out DPS stalkers + all ground and other units way too much...medivacs are a problem in TvT right now regardless of your style because they negate any defender advantage/terrain/any defense in place. Something can be a problem in a mirror and not be in the other match-ups. Terran has ways to deal with void rays, so does Zerg (well perhaps not late late game), but it's the best thing or too good in the mirror. If anyone read the Coach Park interview...if blizzard does change medivacs they should change the boost so there is a cost/risk to using it. Maybe have it drain the medivac's health, or drain energy - those are some things people in the community have throw around. Everyone loves that aggressive play is possible, and HOTS definitely is more exciting to watch right now with mutas coming back, medivac drops being more viable, etc. but you know when something is ruining the mirror match-up or making it luck/coin-flip based it should be tweaked some. For people that don't know, TvT right now basically any build you do is 10x better by making a medivac and putting anything inside of it, whether it's your first marines/hellions/widow mine, you get rewarded for blind aggression with no way to chase down the medivac or take it out (unless you get a lucky widow mine hit or the Terran fucks up). It's quite easy to luck out a win vs a superior Terran by doing this off 1 base right now. Of course, we are still at the wait and see phase... even TvT...i think everyone can improve turret rings for mech vs bio by adding widow mines into the ring in places. The only problem with this though is it's a heavy cost at 2 supply to do this vs bio so it's inefficient. Avilo, all you want is one playstyle you can use in everygame, where you won't need to adapt, to scout and to analyze what your opponent is doing ... For once I am with Avilo on this one. The medivac needs a limit on the number of boosts it can do in set period of time. Right now it can pull off at least 2 every minute of game play, which is to many. If it is energy cool, building up charges, or a much longer cool down, there needs risk to using the medivac boost and a “loss” if the drop fails. The opposing player also needs the breathing room if they hold off two or more drops, rather than being under constant threat of boosted drops. Its not a question if the boost should be awesome, but how many boost the player’s get in a set period of time. Energy is probably the best idea. The addition of bio healing skewed terran drops to be vastly in favor of bio. Terran players used to drop tanks, goliaths and vultures as well in BW. I rarely see hellions/hellbats being dropped outside of an early rush. Siege tank and thor drops are almost non-existent.
It would have to cost a lot of energy to make sure boosting twice in quick succession is a loss, maybe 75 or even 100. That way a doom drop of four or more medivacs—which has considerable reward if successful—will also have considerable risk if it fails and the player has to boost twice to get out, even if few or no units are lost.
It could also solve the insane mobility the 20 second CD afterburner gives Terran armies. Low energy medivacs may not be able to teleport away a cornered army, or if they do the Terran player loses his ability to heal for a while. They may also not be able to turn a losing engagement on its head by picking up the army and dropping it all over the enemy's bases, or if they do they won't be able to teleport the army safely back home before the enemy units arrive.
The main issue with the afterburner is not that it allows a Terran player to spirit away his units, it's that it allows him to do it every twenty seconds, again and again and again, at no cost.
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Really avilo even more qq now while terran is pretty balanced in hots? Rather than qq'ing and qq'ing and even more qq on these forums why don't you just play the game and get better. "Hey there I'm avilo and I'm a starcraft pro, you won't know me by my results but maybe you've seen my whiny posts on the internetz." You're just like cloud lol, many words no results. Maybe people would agree more with you when you'd have some results to back up your words.
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On March 21 2013 22:16 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote: I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded. Z/P mechanics work differently than Terrans. P has feedback / planetary nexus / blink stalkers, Z has spine/spore defense + faster mutalisks + fungal. Notice all of those insta-gib the drop or lock it down or shut it down. For TvT...you have...the missile turret. If you're playing mech TvT that's basically all you have to stop drops that would be headed into your base. And now because of the speed boost if you want to play mech TvT you need many, many more turrets that you cannot afford because a bio Terran can literally speed boost over 5-6 turrets and guaranteed land his army into your base. Anyone that plays mech vs bio often knows if you are backstabbed even once into your production the game is essentially over, especially on these maps with distant 3rds/4ths. Just like void rays are a problem in PvP mirror right now because they out DPS stalkers + all ground and other units way too much...medivacs are a problem in TvT right now regardless of your style because they negate any defender advantage/terrain/any defense in place. Something can be a problem in a mirror and not be in the other match-ups. Terran has ways to deal with void rays, so does Zerg (well perhaps not late late game), but it's the best thing or too good in the mirror. If anyone read the Coach Park interview...if blizzard does change medivacs they should change the boost so there is a cost/risk to using it. Maybe have it drain the medivac's health, or drain energy - those are some things people in the community have throw around. Everyone loves that aggressive play is possible, and HOTS definitely is more exciting to watch right now with mutas coming back, medivac drops being more viable, etc. but you know when something is ruining the mirror match-up or making it luck/coin-flip based it should be tweaked some. For people that don't know, TvT right now basically any build you do is 10x better by making a medivac and putting anything inside of it, whether it's your first marines/hellions/widow mine, you get rewarded for blind aggression with no way to chase down the medivac or take it out (unless you get a lucky widow mine hit or the Terran fucks up). It's quite easy to luck out a win vs a superior Terran by doing this off 1 base right now. Of course, we are still at the wait and see phase... even TvT...i think everyone can improve turret rings for mech vs bio by adding widow mines into the ring in places. The only problem with this though is it's a heavy cost at 2 supply to do this vs bio so it's inefficient.
You are very biased. What about widow mines to stop drops, why didnt you count that unit And what about vikings, long range air
Dont tell me "but htey are useless they just their speed when they see these units" No! Put up smart defensive if he use speed he will move into turrets, and have widowmines infront and vikings can do fabolous
And for the protoss, he have blink and feedback, ye if he invest alots of gas which by the way, medivacs comealong waybefore you have those things
Medivac come also before mutalisk play and you talk about fungal? wtf, the medivac can easily dodge that, not 100% dodge but not as reliable anymore and again you have medivac before fungal even.
As i see it, terran have more reliable things against drops than protoss and zerg!
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Also this community is so whiny the game has just been released, after the first days all the bronze-master noobers already started to cry IMBA IMBA IMBA. I think DK is right this time, just wait first. Or just nerf everything like in wol and end up with a shitty no fun game that wasn't even balanced.
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All medivacs need is a longer CD on the boost. It is that simple. Make sure you have to decide before you go in with your doom drop if you want to use your boost to get in fast or to get out fast. That way it is up to the player and about decision making. I dont like the energy idea because that way it becomes more random and maybe you have energy left, maybe you dont. If you know what i mean ^^
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Agreed with the disagreement with Avilo's statement. Dude says "T have only 1 thing to block drops."
-Turrets -Planetary(ok this is for 4th base+ but still means you don't need as much army as you would to guard a orbital). -Widow Mines(2 supply for the chance to instakill 1 medivac and do heavy damage to others/singlehandedly kill marine squads off with 1 shot) -Tanks(As mech I always used to leave 1 tank per base anyways because you should be spreading tanks in order to cover 3 bases, even in WoL with good turret rings a few units could get out and this would clean them up along with reinforcements/a few helions). -Sensor towers(they wont be very good drops if you can get 10-20 seconds of warning). -Vikings(You should be building vikings with mech anyways. firstly so that they dont just doomdrop marauders on your tanks and GG you lose ala boxer vs taeja or ganzi. secondly for tank vision and to keep the medivac count down if he is sloppy; either way you are going to kill medis or he is going to lose marines chasing you off into tank range. Third reason is anti-drop.)
A combination of these things is the answer, not "its impossible they always get through". yes 6 medivacs may be able to clear a turret ring but if they had vikings picking at them to weaken em, a tank+helions for fighting with maybe 1-2 widow mines per base, and a sensor tower so you can see em coming? Thats a cost-inefficient drop IMO.
And TBH I think you should be able to punish a meching Terran easier than in WoL. Too many times in my own games I would find that they have 3 vikings patrolling+ a couple good turret placements and any drops are WAYYY too in-efficient, and then he would max out on 3 bases and it was GG. Now you have a higher likelyhood to break the meching player's production IF HE IS UNPREPARED . Even in TvZ/TvP I felt like this, like your opponent had to be worse/unprepared for drops to be successful, because a good player won't respond to pressure on the other side of the map by weakining his base defences unless it genuinely is desperate. If anything this just means Terran has to split better and be prepared like Z/P have to against us already, which only leads to better games. If your really going to cry because a 6 medivac doom drop flies over 2-3 turrets with minimal losses....god help us all.
Remember as mech its not like you need 150 food in your deathball to walk around the map harassing. You should primarily be playing defensive while using helions, hellbat and mine drops, and even stuff like viking/banshee off-timings to apply pressure. So you really shouldn't have a "ball" that is going to miss those extra units. Even when you do push out, a smart mech player should know that as long as you dont put yourself in a position to where your opponent is hitting from 2+ angles with a huge concave, your main army with ups will trade so cost-efficiently that a straight up fight is nigh-on impossible for the bio player unless he can force the engagement in the optimal position. So it should be obvious strategic logic "hes going to want to basetrade me, so his main army wont be as strong, so i can afford to split my army in order to prevent one of the ways he can beat me(backstabs)."
I think alot of players get caught up in the "i have 200/200 with 2-2, i should F2 towards the opponent so i can crush him". For those of you who played baseball, you know that a common way for errors is the kid who fields the ground ball with plenty of time to get it to 1st but tries to get the guy out by a mile and misses the throw, when he could have taken the time to calmly throw the ball. You only need to get em out by a fraction, inch or a mile winning is winning!
And finally; Avilo dude. Your a progamer apparently. Why are you on these forums whining constantly about the issues you find? If me and a bunch of other mid-master players are able to think up these solutions that work for usI don't see how you could not have considered them. I find it hard to believe that what works pretty good for masters Terrans is unviable for a GM Terran. If anything your more likely to succeed with it because your "smarter" GM player will have considered the points in my last sentence and decided a backstab is the best tactic rather than a master T who will just desperation attack your army. I agreed with a lot of the stuff you used to say about BL/infestor and also about the Raven but this argument I've read in this thread is ridiculous.
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On March 22 2013 05:27 Fjodorov wrote: All medivacs need is a longer CD on the boost. It is that simple. Make sure you have to decide before you go in with your doom drop if you want to use your boost to get in fast or to get out fast. That way it is up to the player and about decision making. I dont like the energy idea because that way it becomes more random and maybe you have energy left, maybe you dont. If you know what i mean ^^
I could be impartial to a slight increase in cooldown if it proves to continue to be an issue but in the interest of the game I think we should wait until atleast 1st GSL trophy to be decided to see if after a month or two of prep if S-level Koreans can deal with the medivacs.
And removal/energy cost/damage just seems like a stupid idea.
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On March 22 2013 05:27 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: Agreed with the disagreement with Avilo's statement. Dude says "T have only 1 thing to block drops."
-Turrets -Planetary(ok this is for 4th base+ but still means you don't need as much army as you would to guard a orbital). -Widow Mines(2 supply for the chance to instakill 1 medivac and do heavy damage to others/singlehandedly kill marine squads off with 1 shot) -Tanks(As mech I always used to leave 1 tank per base anyways because you should be spreading tanks in order to cover 3 bases, even in WoL with good turret rings a few units could get out and this would clean them up along with reinforcements/a few helions). -Sensor towers(they wont be very good drops if you can get 10-20 seconds of warning). -Vikings(You should be building vikings with mech anyways. firstly so that they dont just doomdrop marauders on your tanks and GG you lose ala boxer vs taeja or ganzi. secondly for tank vision and to keep the medivac count down if he is sloppy; either way you are going to kill medis or he is going to lose marines chasing you off into tank range. Third reason is anti-drop.)
A combination of these things is the answer, not "its impossible they always get through". yes 6 medivacs may be able to clear a turret ring but if they had vikings picking at them to weaken em, a tank+helions for fighting with maybe 1-2 widow mines per base, and a sensor tower so you can see em coming? Thats a cost-inefficient drop IMO.
And TBH I think you should be able to punish a meching Terran easier than in WoL. Too many times in my own games I would find that they have 3 vikings patrolling+ a couple good turret placements and any drops are WAYYY too in-efficient, and then he would max out on 3 bases and it was GG. Now you have a higher likelyhood to break the meching player's production IF HE IS UNPREPARED . Even in TvZ/TvP I felt like this, like your opponent had to be worse/unprepared for drops to be successful, because a good player won't respond to pressure on the other side of the map by weakining his base defences unless it genuinely is desperate. If anything this just means Terran has to split better and be prepared like Z/P have to against us already, which only leads to better games. If your really going to cry because a 6 medivac doom drop flies over 2-3 turrets with minimal losses....god help us all.
Remember as mech its not like you need 150 food in your deathball to walk around the map harassing. You should primarily be playing defensive while using helions, hellbat and mine drops, and even stuff like viking/banshee off-timings to apply pressure. So you really shouldn't have a "ball" that is going to miss those extra units. Even when you do push out, a smart mech player should know that as long as you dont put yourself in a position to where your opponent is hitting from 2+ angles with a huge concave, your main army with ups will trade so cost-efficiently that a straight up fight is nigh-on impossible for the bio player unless he can force the engagement in the optimal position. So it should be obvious strategic logic "hes going to want to basetrade me, so his main army wont be as strong, so i can afford to split my army in order to prevent one of the ways he can beat me(backstabs)."
I think alot of players get caught up in the "i have 200/200 with 2-2, i should F2 towards the opponent so i can crush him". For those of you who played baseball, you know that a common way for errors is the kid who fields the ground ball with plenty of time to get it to 1st but tries to get the guy out by a mile and misses the throw, when he could have taken the time to calmly throw the ball. You only need to get em out by a fraction, inch or a mile winning is winning!
And finally; Avilo dude. Your a progamer apparently. Why are you on these forums whining constantly about the issues you find? If me and a bunch of other mid-master players are able to think up these solutions that work for usI don't see how you could not have considered them. I find it hard to believe that what works pretty good for masters Terrans is unviable for a GM Terran. If anything your more likely to succeed with it because your "smarter" GM player will have considered the points in my last sentence and decided a backstab is the best tactic rather than a master T who will just desperation attack your army. I agreed with a lot of the stuff you used to say about BL/infestor and also about the Raven but this argument I've read in this thread is ridiculous.
You forgot Terran's own defensive Medivacs are just as nimble as the offensive Medivacs.
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The only change that would even make a little sense for medivacs is perhaps a 5-10 second increase on the cooldown. The only possible problem right now is that you can boost in and have a decent chance to boost out as well. The risk/reward factor needs to be that boosting in means you probably won't be able to boost out unless you hold out for awhile.
Using energy/health/research is a completely over the top nerf at this point.
EDIT - looks like someone said this before me as well
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I would really prefer medivacs boost to be energy based. Having cooldown abilities on an energy based units just seems strange.
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My wish list for the next patch: 1. When the medivac uses the boosters it takes 1.5 more damage. Reason: the unit adds an exciting element to the game but there is no risk.
2. Very minor nerf to the blast radius of the widow mine. Reason: Lings and mutas are hard countered a bit too hard by mine fields.
3. Merge the overlord speed upgrade with the overlord drop upgrade. Reason: I want to see bane bombs again!
4. Increase the overall speed of warp prisms. Reason: less deathbally Protoss
5. Do something about Corruptors. Reason: they are so boring. Make them more anti muta for ZvZ
6. Do something about Void Rays. Reason: dominate PvP and aren't exciting at all
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On March 22 2013 06:23 Sandermatt wrote: I would really prefer medivacs boost to be energy based. Having cooldown abilities on an energy based units just seems strange.
This would actually be somewhat of a nerf to protoss since high energy medivacs take more damage from feedback. In the past terrans would have to pre-stim to make sure that the medivacs didn't get one-shot before doing a drop.
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On March 22 2013 05:41 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 05:27 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: Agreed with the disagreement with Avilo's statement. Dude says "T have only 1 thing to block drops."
-Turrets -Planetary(ok this is for 4th base+ but still means you don't need as much army as you would to guard a orbital). -Widow Mines(2 supply for the chance to instakill 1 medivac and do heavy damage to others/singlehandedly kill marine squads off with 1 shot) -Tanks(As mech I always used to leave 1 tank per base anyways because you should be spreading tanks in order to cover 3 bases, even in WoL with good turret rings a few units could get out and this would clean them up along with reinforcements/a few helions). -Sensor towers(they wont be very good drops if you can get 10-20 seconds of warning). -Vikings(You should be building vikings with mech anyways. firstly so that they dont just doomdrop marauders on your tanks and GG you lose ala boxer vs taeja or ganzi. secondly for tank vision and to keep the medivac count down if he is sloppy; either way you are going to kill medis or he is going to lose marines chasing you off into tank range. Third reason is anti-drop.)
A combination of these things is the answer, not "its impossible they always get through". yes 6 medivacs may be able to clear a turret ring but if they had vikings picking at them to weaken em, a tank+helions for fighting with maybe 1-2 widow mines per base, and a sensor tower so you can see em coming? Thats a cost-inefficient drop IMO.
And TBH I think you should be able to punish a meching Terran easier than in WoL. Too many times in my own games I would find that they have 3 vikings patrolling+ a couple good turret placements and any drops are WAYYY too in-efficient, and then he would max out on 3 bases and it was GG. Now you have a higher likelyhood to break the meching player's production IF HE IS UNPREPARED . Even in TvZ/TvP I felt like this, like your opponent had to be worse/unprepared for drops to be successful, because a good player won't respond to pressure on the other side of the map by weakining his base defences unless it genuinely is desperate. If anything this just means Terran has to split better and be prepared like Z/P have to against us already, which only leads to better games. If your really going to cry because a 6 medivac doom drop flies over 2-3 turrets with minimal losses....god help us all.
Remember as mech its not like you need 150 food in your deathball to walk around the map harassing. You should primarily be playing defensive while using helions, hellbat and mine drops, and even stuff like viking/banshee off-timings to apply pressure. So you really shouldn't have a "ball" that is going to miss those extra units. Even when you do push out, a smart mech player should know that as long as you dont put yourself in a position to where your opponent is hitting from 2+ angles with a huge concave, your main army with ups will trade so cost-efficiently that a straight up fight is nigh-on impossible for the bio player unless he can force the engagement in the optimal position. So it should be obvious strategic logic "hes going to want to basetrade me, so his main army wont be as strong, so i can afford to split my army in order to prevent one of the ways he can beat me(backstabs)."
I think alot of players get caught up in the "i have 200/200 with 2-2, i should F2 towards the opponent so i can crush him". For those of you who played baseball, you know that a common way for errors is the kid who fields the ground ball with plenty of time to get it to 1st but tries to get the guy out by a mile and misses the throw, when he could have taken the time to calmly throw the ball. You only need to get em out by a fraction, inch or a mile winning is winning!
And finally; Avilo dude. Your a progamer apparently. Why are you on these forums whining constantly about the issues you find? If me and a bunch of other mid-master players are able to think up these solutions that work for usI don't see how you could not have considered them. I find it hard to believe that what works pretty good for masters Terrans is unviable for a GM Terran. If anything your more likely to succeed with it because your "smarter" GM player will have considered the points in my last sentence and decided a backstab is the best tactic rather than a master T who will just desperation attack your army. I agreed with a lot of the stuff you used to say about BL/infestor and also about the Raven but this argument I've read in this thread is ridiculous. You forgot Terran's own defensive Medivacs are just as nimble as the offensive Medivacs.
Good point I was just addressing the bio vs mech concerns to be honest so i didnt really think it was relevant.
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On March 22 2013 06:29 TimENT wrote:
5. Do something about Corruptors. Reason: they are so boring. Make them more anti muta for ZvZ
Would a bonus against light units make them too powerful?
It could solve the mutalisks problem and also make them better against mass phoenixes (who finally counter mutalisks properly but are a bit too strong vs corruptor with the full range?)
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On March 22 2013 07:28 eXdeath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 06:29 TimENT wrote:
5. Do something about Corruptors. Reason: they are so boring. Make them more anti muta for ZvZ
Would a bonus against light units make them too powerful? It could solve the mutalisks problem and also make them better against mass phoenixes (who finally counter mutalisks properly but are a bit too strong vs corruptor with the full range?) Well, Corruptors already have their bonus against massive, which makes them rather important in countering stuff like capital ships and Colossi. I don't recall any units having multiple damage bonuses, and I think removing their bonus damage against massive leaves a rather glaring hole in Zerg's anti-air capabilities.
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corruptors are definitely the thing to look at for zerg. everything else, imo, seems to be in a decent place. it would help slightly in all match-ups without breaking the game. they're just super mediocre on paper and often quite lackluster when you need them most.
a slight damage bonus would;
-help vs skytoss gayness -help even more against warpspeedivacs -wanting to do something about muta without going muta yourself or doing the roach/hydra/infestor thing
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 22 2013 07:38 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 07:28 eXdeath wrote:On March 22 2013 06:29 TimENT wrote:
5. Do something about Corruptors. Reason: they are so boring. Make them more anti muta for ZvZ
Would a bonus against light units make them too powerful? It could solve the mutalisks problem and also make them better against mass phoenixes (who finally counter mutalisks properly but are a bit too strong vs corruptor with the full range?) Well, Corruptors already have their bonus against massive, which makes them rather important in countering stuff like capital ships and Colossi. I don't recall any units having multiple damage bonuses, and I think removing their bonus damage against massive leaves a rather glaring hole in Zerg's anti-air capabilities.
Void Rays HAD bonus vs armored and bonus vs massive in WoL.
(also you could say Banelings vs Light AND Structures if you really wanted to get picky)
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On March 22 2013 05:27 Fjodorov wrote: All medivacs need is a longer CD on the boost. It is that simple. Make sure you have to decide before you go in with your doom drop if you want to use your boost to get in fast or to get out fast. That way it is up to the player and about decision making. I dont like the energy idea because that way it becomes more random and maybe you have energy left, maybe you dont. If you know what i mean ^^
They should wait at least until after the first HotS season of GSL, and decide what if any nerf they want to implement then. I agree that increased CD by about 10-20 seconds may be a wise way to test the waters if they decide to nerf, but an energy cost to afterburner is not random—you can simply turn off auto-heal on some medivacs or not engage with them at all if you want to save some energy for afterburner.
It's not just an issue with drops. A CD of 40 seconds will still allow a cornered army to teleport to safety or enemy bases, whereas an energy cost leaves the Terran with the decision to either forgo some healing in engagements or forsake his ability to teleport using afterburner.
I really don't think it's fair that a forcefielded or surrounded Terran army can boost away and split up between enemy bases in low-energy medivacs to possibly wreak havoc on them all, probably killing many enemy units too, as they either have to split up or let some of the Terran drops get away.
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On March 22 2013 07:43 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 07:38 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 22 2013 07:28 eXdeath wrote:On March 22 2013 06:29 TimENT wrote:
5. Do something about Corruptors. Reason: they are so boring. Make them more anti muta for ZvZ
Would a bonus against light units make them too powerful? It could solve the mutalisks problem and also make them better against mass phoenixes (who finally counter mutalisks properly but are a bit too strong vs corruptor with the full range?) Well, Corruptors already have their bonus against massive, which makes them rather important in countering stuff like capital ships and Colossi. I don't recall any units having multiple damage bonuses, and I think removing their bonus damage against massive leaves a rather glaring hole in Zerg's anti-air capabilities. Void Rays HAD bonus vs armored and bonus vs massive in WoL. (also you could say Banelings vs Light AND Structures if you really wanted to get picky) Oh yes, I completely forgot about WoL Void Rays, although it was a 20% bonus against massive on top of the bonus against armored, with all massive units already being armored. However, a bonus against both light and massive seems kinda wonky.
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I know this is meant to make the game better, but forcing every m/u into hyper aggressive game play is not progress in my opinion
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We should wait until we see what the GSL guys can do, especially the 4 different zerg finalists and DRG. We already know Life can handle T and P. Who cares about winrates or tourney results based on foreigners. If you start caring about that then how about some Terran buffs so foreigner Terrans could win something meaningful throughout the entire WoL era and probably HOTS too.
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On March 22 2013 08:14 RevTiberius wrote: I know this is meant to make the game better, but forcing every m/u into hyper aggressive game play is not progress in my opinion
Well 15 minute macro games into 200/200 battles was pretty bad. NO one liked that either.
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On March 22 2013 08:14 RevTiberius wrote: I know this is meant to make the game better, but forcing every m/u into hyper aggressive game play is not progress in my opinion Hyper aggressive play that transitions into the lategame is actually the perfect type of progress in my opinion.
All the kinds of harasses I've seen so far (with the possible exception of mass oracle?) doesn't have the potential to end the game unless one person screws up or there's a big skill difference, but it still gives plenty of opportunities to come out with good chunks of damage if you play right. Sounds good to me.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 22 2013 08:12 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 07:43 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 22 2013 07:38 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 22 2013 07:28 eXdeath wrote:On March 22 2013 06:29 TimENT wrote:
5. Do something about Corruptors. Reason: they are so boring. Make them more anti muta for ZvZ
Would a bonus against light units make them too powerful? It could solve the mutalisks problem and also make them better against mass phoenixes (who finally counter mutalisks properly but are a bit too strong vs corruptor with the full range?) Well, Corruptors already have their bonus against massive, which makes them rather important in countering stuff like capital ships and Colossi. I don't recall any units having multiple damage bonuses, and I think removing their bonus damage against massive leaves a rather glaring hole in Zerg's anti-air capabilities. Void Rays HAD bonus vs armored and bonus vs massive in WoL. (also you could say Banelings vs Light AND Structures if you really wanted to get picky) Oh yes, I completely forgot about WoL Void Rays, although it was a 20% bonus against massive on top of the bonus against armored, with all massive units already being armored. However, a bonus against both light and massive seems kinda wonky.
Archons are Massive, but not Armored.
EDIT: But I do understand your point. Though I do think that gameplay should trump intuitiveness in all situations (not saying I agree that Corruptors should be light though, I don't think it would be good for PvZ).
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On March 22 2013 06:23 Sandermatt wrote: I would really prefer medivacs boost to be energy based. Having cooldown abilities on an energy based units just seems strange. this would be so funny. fill medivac with hellions or mines and then boost boost boost boost boost boost until the medivac gets to the opponent's base from your own base, almost completely negating rush distances. =D protoss would scout medivac with obs in your base and think he has a minute or so to reach, but the medivac is in his base in 20 secs. lol.
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On March 22 2013 09:04 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 08:14 RevTiberius wrote: I know this is meant to make the game better, but forcing every m/u into hyper aggressive game play is not progress in my opinion Hyper aggressive play that transitions into the lategame is actually the perfect type of progress in my opinion. All the kinds of harasses I've seen so far (with the possible exception of mass oracle?) doesn't have the potential to end the game unless one person screws up or there's a big skill difference, but it still gives plenty of opportunities to come out with good chunks of damage if you play right. Sounds good to me.
It's great that HotS let each race have a chance to be more active, but the problem I see is that hyper aggression is now not an option, but a do or die; forcing it just loses the strategical depth imo.
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On March 22 2013 09:43 NAPoleonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 09:04 Dalavita wrote:On March 22 2013 08:14 RevTiberius wrote: I know this is meant to make the game better, but forcing every m/u into hyper aggressive game play is not progress in my opinion Hyper aggressive play that transitions into the lategame is actually the perfect type of progress in my opinion. All the kinds of harasses I've seen so far (with the possible exception of mass oracle?) doesn't have the potential to end the game unless one person screws up or there's a big skill difference, but it still gives plenty of opportunities to come out with good chunks of damage if you play right. Sounds good to me. It's great that HotS let each race have a chance to be more active, but the problem I see is that hyper aggression is now not an option, but a do or die; forcing it just loses the strategical depth imo.
This isn't true. Terran can be hyper aggressive (reaper opening then hellion/reaper aggression + medivac drops) and it's not a do or die. It denies creep spread, can get a few drones, sometimes just does a lot more damage then you expect, sometimes less, etc. But it's not a do or die.
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My issues with a few of his thoughts.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
Life/MC were the only anomalous results past what was expected. Both of which played in the exact same manner they played in Wings...super aggressive. With HoTS being very new it's not in hindsight a big shock that super aggressive players did well in this tournament.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
The player who struggled the least against the balance concerns (life)...if anything played the least creative style possible. Mind you I didn't say his games were not exciting, but the overall style was very basic.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
So after re reading this properly my main concern here is this...ZvZ...it was a very very fast paced match up very early on in WoL and for most of Wings remained that way. So just assuming fast paced is good because it was fun when it's new, doesn't mean that shiny toy won't get a lot of rust on it in a hurry for ZvT.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move
I think despite my concerns posted, that this is not an unwise approach. But based on some of the abysmal design decisions made during WoL, I do not have 100% confidence HoTS will not stagnate once people get attack and defense timings figured out. It's hard for a lot of people to recall but WoL was very fast paced and in ways exciting for the first few months while people figured out the game.
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lol people calling me biased when i'm describing scenarios in TvT/PvP. I don't even...
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On March 22 2013 08:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 08:14 RevTiberius wrote: I know this is meant to make the game better, but forcing every m/u into hyper aggressive game play is not progress in my opinion Well 15 minute macro games into 200/200 battles was pretty bad. NO one liked that either. The thing about "forcing aggression" is that you can push the efficiency of aggression too much and end up with random chance deciding the outcome of a game instead of skill. Human reaction time only goes so far and if these abilities are "balanced" for pros they will be totally overpowered for non-pros ... The Medivac turbo boost is such a mechanic which gives the Terran a rather easy opportunity to drop an enemy's base and the enemy HAS TO defend with sufficient numbers against this, because that same speed boost allows the Terran to get back home fast enough if it turns into a base trade scenario.
People have already spoken out against defending their bases with cannons for example - something which I still think is viable - so there are only two options left: - accept the gamble and hope he doesnt drop you and take your whole army out on the battlefield OR - weaken your main army and leave some units back home in the hope that you put them in the right spot AND see the drop coming early enough to react (if you have a High Templar for defense and want to feeedback the Medivacs for example).
To get rid of 200/200 macro games there is the other solution of getting rid of macro mechanics which allow you to get a massive amount of units in a short time. Players would have to be content with whatever units they can make and would stop throwing them away as easily and use more strategy to win games instead of pure macroing power.
Less is more!
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To get rid of 200/200 macro games there is the other solution of getting rid of macro mechanics which allow you to get a massive amount of units in a short time. Players would have to be content with whatever units they can make and would stop throwing them away as easily and use more strategy to win games instead of pure macroing power.
Less is more![/QUOTE]
Nothing to add other then that I love what you just wrote so true! +++++ :D
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On March 22 2013 11:31 avilo wrote: lol people calling me biased when i'm describing scenarios in TvT/PvP. I don't even...
You can still be biased towards T in TvT. Basically the sum of your argument was "I can't handle medivac drops, they break me everytime, every other race can handle them but T, imba imba imba".
That's biased towards your identity as the Terran who can't handle a certain form of play and is biased against it begging for a change. Doesn't matter if your opponent is P,T or Z. You are trying to whine to address your own gameplay issues, that makes you biased as you have a conflict of interest if your were to testify to this in court.
Edit: and for the idiot who is going to say "it can't be imba because the other terran can do it too" and misses the obvious assertion that we are discussing bio vs mech, one phrase fits perfectly. "Two wrongs don't make a right"
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On March 22 2013 14:35 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 11:31 avilo wrote: lol people calling me biased when i'm describing scenarios in TvT/PvP. I don't even... You can still be biased towards T in TvT. Basically the sum of your argument was "I can't handle medivac drops, they break me everytime, every other race can handle them but T, imba imba imba". That's biased towards your identity as the Terran who can't handle a certain form of play and is biased against it begging for a change. Doesn't matter if your opponent is P,T or Z. You are trying to whine to address your own gameplay issues, that makes you biased as you have a conflict of interest if your were to testify to this in court. Edit: and for the idiot who is going to say "it can't be imba because the other terran can do it too" and misses the obvious assertion that we are discussing bio vs mech, one phrase fits perfectly. "Two wrongs don't make a right"
If you take away Bio's mobility, what advantages does it have over Mech? If all you want is Mech-all-the-time-TvT, just say so and get it over with. Personally, I like the fact that Bio actually can work.
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Would be nice if medivac boost was an upgrade, and warp prism speed increase seems cool too. Would also be nice to see something done with nydus worms so people use them more often, besides placing them in peoples bases
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On March 22 2013 15:29 dgwow wrote: Would be nice if medivac boost was an upgrade, and warp prism speed increase seems cool too. Would also be nice to see something done with nydus worms so people use them more often, besides placing them in peoples bases That doesnt solve any problem ... it only delays it. SC2 is a game which is mostly about tons of resources and this makes upgrades not much of an issue except for time. The "dont let them get there" is a popular method of balancing for the Blizzard devemlopment team, but it really sucks and there should be units OR OTHER METHODS capable of dealing with problematic issues.
Due to the high speed the Medivacs could fly over "a few cannons" without dying completely and building "a lot of cannons everywhere" and then never needing them will set your army back too much and you already lose on the battlefield. Having to use part of your supply to stay back is even worse, because you need to be fast enough to use those units against the Medivacs (High Templar for example) to make a difference and in addition that amount of supply is missing from your main army as well. So how can the speed boost be balanced in any way? Personally I think it cant be and although it might be a nice thing on the battlefield with your army it seems rather overpowered when it comes to drops ... and should be taken out altogether and be replaced with something sensible.
Less is more!
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A FYI for everyone in this thread. There are only 2 Terrans in the top twenty of the Korean GM right now.
Obviously this doesn't prove everything about balance but it gives the people complaining about all things Terran something to think about.
Step back from your own experience in the game and look at the big picture, the game doesn't revolve around you not being able to deal with drops and mines.
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As Hots forum is down I post this here. I need some help with running hot guys. My WoL client is fully updated after the patch and optimized on my Desktop .Is it possible for me to copy some files in particular so that I dont have to download the whole patch again to run Hots on my laptop?
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On March 22 2013 10:01 Nerski wrote:My issues with a few of his thoughts. Show nested quote +- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority. Life/MC were the only anomalous results past what was expected. Both of which played in the exact same manner they played in Wings...super aggressive. With HoTS being very new it's not in hindsight a big shock that super aggressive players did well in this tournament. Show nested quote +- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them. The player who struggled the least against the balance concerns (life)...if anything played the least creative style possible. Mind you I didn't say his games were not exciting, but the overall style was very basic. Some things we're thinking of going forward: Show nested quote +- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch. So after re reading this properly my main concern here is this...ZvZ...it was a very very fast paced match up very early on in WoL and for most of Wings remained that way. So just assuming fast paced is good because it was fun when it's new, doesn't mean that shiny toy won't get a lot of rust on it in a hurry for ZvT. Show nested quote +- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move I think despite my concerns posted, that this is not an unwise approach. But based on some of the abysmal design decisions made during WoL, I do not have 100% confidence HoTS will not stagnate once people get attack and defense timings figured out. It's hard for a lot of people to recall but WoL was very fast paced and in ways exciting for the first few months while people figured out the game.
Couldn't agree more.
I honestly have no idea if David Kim is even watching the same games as the rest of us. I don't know what creative stuff we're seeing aside from Leenock--who was merely playing HotS instead of WoL--who proceeded to get roflstomped in the ro16 at MLG.
Also, concerning Life's victory--and it was talked about on SotG--but if Terrans just made tanks, his shenanigans would not have worked. We even saw Last split expertly and defend it without tanks, so just imagine...
I don't think letting some time pass is a bad idea at all, but DK's reasons for wanting to do so are pretty piss-poor. As usual.
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you cant "just make tanks" with this terran opening which is why life's style was creative and effective everything flash aimed for was 2-2 bio at ~14min with some mine and medivac support to have a good timing window to applys pressure. if he made tanks he could not make as many medivacs, he could not get 2-2, he would not be able to apply pressure, he would not win as "easily" (because the other zerg's strat was just shit) as he did. life figured this out and countered it, flash did not change his BO by much, life won... that is how it is supposted to be. (and not just "lolz i make infestors so you lose")
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But who makes Tanks when MMM+M(mines) is a much safer opening against P or Z. MMMM is safer against army collapse as so often happens to Terran Mech. MMMM also has much more mobility and flexibility against whatever gets thrown at you.
Unfortunately, I'm already bored of wave after wave of MMMM. At least P and Z often make different units throughout a game, but Terran is all about spamming MMMM MMMM MMMM MMMM MMMM. Boring as fuck to watch.
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On March 22 2013 14:35 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 11:31 avilo wrote: lol people calling me biased when i'm describing scenarios in TvT/PvP. I don't even... You can still be biased towards T in TvT. Basically the sum of your argument was "I can't handle medivac drops, they break me everytime, every other race can handle them but T, imba imba imba". That's biased towards your identity as the Terran who can't handle a certain form of play and is biased against it begging for a change. Doesn't matter if your opponent is P,T or Z. You are trying to whine to address your own gameplay issues, that makes you biased as you have a conflict of interest if your were to testify to this in court. Edit: and for the idiot who is going to say "it can't be imba because the other terran can do it too" and misses the obvious assertion that we are discussing bio vs mech, one phrase fits perfectly. "Two wrongs don't make a right"
Tell me if this is bias: http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/380724901
Watch the experiment. It's as if the missile turrets are not even there -_-
Go to 29:50 if you want to really see some ridiculousness :D
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Pvz atm is the worst out of all matchups i think atm. If P is decent and dont make stuppid mistakes, it can stay on 3 base, never move out and slowely take the 4th when he has enough HT voids colossi. Theres nothing you can do atm vs it. Theres many top zergs who feel the same about it lately. The hydra timings worked, but now toss realized they just have to make templar and voidrays. =(
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TvT is usually the go to matchup, when you want to see good game design, so when something is awfully wrong in TvT it speaks for itself. It's really clear how strong the Medivac and Mines is, when opponent goes Colossus there's a lot stronger tendency to still go Medivacs and ignore them and Siege Tanks are totally left out, because the Mine does everything so much better and so much more cost efficiently. You can't say leave these units alone and buff other races, since then whatever you chose to buff on the other race and Medivac/Mine will always be the stronger units and will be the go to. Other units will be weaker and left out. The two of them are fun plays so I don't want them gone, but Medivac boost could at least cost 25 energy, so there's a decision in boosting them, instead of just another macro mechanic which you want to click as often as possible. The Mines are just too cost efficient, I wouldn't mind them one shotting a Stalker or Oracle if they at least was visible during the time or something, so you can get rid of the damn thing.
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On March 22 2013 16:26 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 15:29 dgwow wrote: Would be nice if medivac boost was an upgrade, and warp prism speed increase seems cool too. Would also be nice to see something done with nydus worms so people use them more often, besides placing them in peoples bases That doesnt solve any problem ... it only delays it. SC2 is a game which is mostly about tons of resources and this makes upgrades not much of an issue except for time. The "dont let them get there" is a popular method of balancing for the Blizzard devemlopment team, but it really sucks and there should be units OR OTHER METHODS capable of dealing with problematic issues. Due to the high speed the Medivacs could fly over "a few cannons" without dying completely and building "a lot of cannons everywhere" and then never needing them will set your army back too much and you already lose on the battlefield. Having to use part of your supply to stay back is even worse, because you need to be fast enough to use those units against the Medivacs (High Templar for example) to make a difference and in addition that amount of supply is missing from your main army as well. So how can the speed boost be balanced in any way? Personally I think it cant be and although it might be a nice thing on the battlefield with your army it seems rather overpowered when it comes to drops ... and should be taken out altogether and be replaced with something sensible. Less is more! As you stated yourself, SC2 is a game where resources are in abundance. The game IS based around timings. There are 3 ways in which units/abilities/etc can be balanced.
1) It can have its timing adjusted. This form of adjustment takes place when a unit is considered balanced at max supply. This can apply to the unit as a whole (eg Depot need for Rax to slow bio pressure) or to the units stats in the way of upgrades (eg blink research time), or the unit/ability/etc it can be moved forward if it wont cause balance problems to give more options in its use (eg Dark Shine build time or overlord speed at hatch).
A hypothetical medivac example is making boot an upgrade at techlab. This would have a 2 fold effect. You would have a timing in which a Terran can reactor 2 medivacs with no boosters or 1 medivac with boosters.
2) It can have its stats adjusted. This is performed when the unit is not considered balanced at 200 supply. Good examples of this are the supply cap increase of the Voidray (Even if other adjustments still need to be made I the future), Projectile being added to fungal, or attack range of the Pheonix).
A hypothetical medivac example is to increase the cooldown on boosters, or to make the medivac unresponsive to move commands during a boost. Both of these changes
Often the adjustments made using this form of balancing can result in the need to perform a timing adjustment also in order to maintain balance. For example hydra getting an Offcreep speed increase, but requiring an upgrade to use it. The choice to make this change require an upgrade is most likely to prevent the change from making the unit too powerful at earlier stages of the game, and maintain the pre-existing timings involved.
3) Redesign. This is performed when either the unit can not have its stats/timing adjusted in a way which maintains both balance and the usefulness of the unit/ability, or if the unit/ability is considered redundant in its current form. (Eg the Voidray or Reaper changes). Generally speaking this is the least acceptable form of change as it can have dramatic effects on all matchups and mane timings, altering the gameplay as a whole. It is generally considered better practice to nerf such units/abilities to a point in which they are slightly underpowered or redundant and perform the redesign during the release of an expansion. This is because unlike in a standard patch, it is the expectation that an expansion will have more dramatic effects of gameplay so such large changes can take place without causing disruption to tournaments etc. (The Reaper is a perfect example of this process taking place using this best practice).
TLDR: Hopefully what I have pointed out with this post is that generally there are two different ways to make balance changes, and the one you use is based on wether the unit is considered balanced at max supply. This is why 90% of the time you see timing adjustments over stat changes. The effects on the maxed gameplay are minimal when adjusting timings, but can have many implications from stat changes (even +10hp to a unit could have much larger effects than you can initially see). I don't think it is fair to have any negativity towards the use of timing adjustments when possible.
edit:Formatting
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On March 22 2013 16:41 Infinite Loop wrote: A FYI for everyone in this thread. There are only 2 Terrans in the top twenty of the Korean GM right now.
Obviously this doesn't prove everything about balance but it gives the people complaining about all things Terran something to think about.
Step back from your own experience in the game and look at the big picture, the game doesn't revolve around you not being able to deal with drops and mines.
Blizzard is likely aware of the data of how those games went down as well. I think players figured out how to deal with drops. I mean if you play against something for a long enough time you should be able to figure it out, and these guys play 40+ games a day.
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i have learn today that people got no brain , who are you for say terran need a nerf or anything else ??
when most of you guy are not even master.... lol , you got nothing to say about the balance and know nothing .
practice and get better , you can improve , stop ask for nerf or buff , if you loss that because you are bad , not because terran are imba or anything else .
that was proved that life have show how to deal with mine and make them near to useless , practice and do the same this was proved that korean deal with the medivac just fine and they just got 5 day practice vs them , learn and do the same
for resume , learn the game , stop ask for nerf because you are bad and cant deal with stuft in this game . nothing imba and nothing need a nerf curently . but blizzard will nerf and adjust because most of you guy are terrible bad and they alway nerf stuft for the bad player .
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On March 22 2013 23:54 quebecman77 wrote: i have learn today that people got no brain , who are you for say terran need a nerf or anything else ??
when most of you guy are not even master.... lol , you got nothing to say about the balance and know nothing .
practice and get better , you can improve , stop ask for nerf or buff , if you loss that because you are bad , not because terran are imba or anything else .
that was proved that life have show how to deal with mine and make them near to useless , practice and do the same this was proved that korean deal with the medivac just fine and they just got 5 day practice vs them , learn and do the same
for resume , learn the game , stop ask for nerf because you are bad and cant deal with stuft in this game . nothing imba and nothing need a nerf curently . but blizzard will nerf and adjust because most of you guy are terrible bad and they alway nerf stuft for the bad player . The only thing not in your brain is grammar
User was warned for this post
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On March 23 2013 00:10 askmc70 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 23:54 quebecman77 wrote: i have learn today that people got no brain , who are you for say terran need a nerf or anything else ??
when most of you guy are not even master.... lol , you got nothing to say about the balance and know nothing .
practice and get better , you can improve , stop ask for nerf or buff , if you loss that because you are bad , not because terran are imba or anything else .
that was proved that life have show how to deal with mine and make them near to useless , practice and do the same this was proved that korean deal with the medivac just fine and they just got 5 day practice vs them , learn and do the same
for resume , learn the game , stop ask for nerf because you are bad and cant deal with stuft in this game . nothing imba and nothing need a nerf curently . but blizzard will nerf and adjust because most of you guy are terrible bad and they alway nerf stuft for the bad player . The only thing not in your brain is grammar
get something too in your brain , not everyone talk english or i should got a perfect english , nor should i care , you can understand my post just fine , but maybe you have something not in your brain.....
btw talk to me in korean or french or spanish if you can , im probably talking 2x your langage kids , and english my worst for write but i can talk it just fine....
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Normally I'd agree with you, but seeing as you come off as unintelligent, arrogant, and insulting, I think I'll take issue with a few of your points. You're NA masters? Or EU masters? Well, clearly you're not qualified to talk about balance, because any Korean GM player would wipe the floor with you.
If someone watches SCII at the pro level and understands the game, they can realize that the game is imbalanced at the pro level without ever touching the controls. And they are perfectly qualified to mention this in a public forum. And Terrans asking for nerf to Terran (there have been several) obviously aren't asking for a nerf to make their rankings better. Maybe they just care about watching a balanced game.
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On March 22 2013 23:18 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 16:26 Rabiator wrote:On March 22 2013 15:29 dgwow wrote: Would be nice if medivac boost was an upgrade, and warp prism speed increase seems cool too. Would also be nice to see something done with nydus worms so people use them more often, besides placing them in peoples bases That doesnt solve any problem ... it only delays it. SC2 is a game which is mostly about tons of resources and this makes upgrades not much of an issue except for time. The "dont let them get there" is a popular method of balancing for the Blizzard devemlopment team, but it really sucks and there should be units OR OTHER METHODS capable of dealing with problematic issues. Due to the high speed the Medivacs could fly over "a few cannons" without dying completely and building "a lot of cannons everywhere" and then never needing them will set your army back too much and you already lose on the battlefield. Having to use part of your supply to stay back is even worse, because you need to be fast enough to use those units against the Medivacs (High Templar for example) to make a difference and in addition that amount of supply is missing from your main army as well. So how can the speed boost be balanced in any way? Personally I think it cant be and although it might be a nice thing on the battlefield with your army it seems rather overpowered when it comes to drops ... and should be taken out altogether and be replaced with something sensible. Less is more! As you stated yourself, SC2 is a game where resources are in abundance. The game IS based around timings. There are 3 ways in which units/abilities/etc can be balanced. 1) It can have its timing adjusted. This form of adjustment takes place when a unit is considered balanced at max supply. This can apply to the unit as a whole (eg Depot need for Rax to slow bio pressure) or to the units stats in the way of upgrades (eg blink research time), or the unit/ability/etc it can be moved forward if it wont cause balance problems to give more options in its use (eg Dark Shine build time or overlord speed at hatch). A hypothetical medivac example is making boot an upgrade at techlab. This would have a 2 fold effect. You would have a timing in which a Terran can reactor 2 medivacs with no boosters or 1 medivac with boosters. 2) It can have its stats adjusted. This is performed when the unit is not considered balanced at 200 supply. Good examples of this are the supply cap increase of the Voidray (Even if other adjustments still need to be made I the future), Projectile being added to fungal, or attack range of the Pheonix). A hypothetical medivac example is to increase the cooldown on boosters, or to make the medivac unresponsive to move commands during a boost. Both of these changes Often the adjustments made using this form of balancing can result in the need to perform a timing adjustment also in order to maintain balance. For example hydra getting an Offcreep speed increase, but requiring an upgrade to use it. The choice to make this change require an upgrade is most likely to prevent the change from making the unit too powerful at earlier stages of the game, and maintain the pre-existing timings involved. 3) Redesign. This is performed when either the unit can not have its stats/timing adjusted in a way which maintains both balance and the usefulness of the unit/ability, or if the unit/ability is considered redundant in its current form. (Eg the Voidray or Reaper changes). Generally speaking this is the least acceptable form of change as it can have dramatic effects on all matchups and mane timings, altering the gameplay as a whole. It is generally considered better practice to nerf such units/abilities to a point in which they are slightly underpowered or redundant and perform the redesign during the release of an expansion. This is because unlike in a standard patch, it is the expectation that an expansion will have more dramatic effects of gameplay so such large changes can take place without causing disruption to tournaments etc. (The Reaper is a perfect example of this process taking place using this best practice). TLDR: Hopefully what I have pointed out with this post is that generally there are two different ways to make balance changes, and the one you use is based on wether the unit is considered balanced at max supply. This is why 90% of the time you see timing adjustments over stat changes. The effects on the maxed gameplay are minimal when adjusting timings, but can have many implications from stat changes (even +10hp to a unit could have much larger effects than you can initially see). I don't think it is fair to have any negativity towards the use of timing adjustments when possible. edit:Formatting The problem with balancing a game around timings is that you FORCE SOMETHING TO HAPPEN around that timing. Either one player doesnt allow the other player to "get there" or that other player gets to play out his "timing card" and possibly win as a consequence. Since players do have greatly different skill levels these timings are adjusted for the top end mostly and thus might totally ruin the game for players at the bottom end of the scale. Thus adjusting the timing will not really "balance the gameplay" only adjust the opportunities. A possible upgrade for the Medivac speed boost is a perfect example as is the Warp Gate research. These are "must have upgrades" and will be done ASAP. No CHOICE for the players enters into the game.
Fiddling around with the timing has always the danger of making them not really worthwile anymore ... as the Reaper in WoL has shown. They were used a lot in the beginning and are useful only at the very very very early part of the game. After Blizzard adjusted the timing they were never ever built anymore because they became useless. What was the problem of the Reapers? Their massive numbers which could stifle the development of the opponent to stop them from reaching the point where Reapers are useless again. So ... the amount was the problem.
Fiddling around with unit stats bears the risk of units becoming useless and not really worthwile anymore. This doesnt make them focus so much on timings though. The Infestor seems to be a good example, but the problem wasnt really a timing and rather the effect of massive numbers of the unit, because they are a caster unit and their spells allow them to focus their power at one point in time. Potentially getting EIGHT stimmed Marines for a TWO supply unit without even endangering your own unit is a bit much if you have a lot of them.
Now for the big one: Redesign. You are talking about redesign, but you limit yourself to units only. That is not so smart, because the core game design features are the cause for many problems. Just look through the examples above and you might notice that the amount of units is the problem most of the time. Sure, you could adjust that a little bit by making production cycles longer, but would that really change anything? If players wanted to mass these units they could still do it. You could also adjust the cost upwards, but that would make them not worthwile in a game where massive numbers of units are the way to go.
IMO the game needs a redesign and not the units themselves! Few Infestors arent a problem, because they wouldnt have a combined energy regeneration of "huge". Few early (WoL-)Reapers wouldnt be a problem, because they couldnt tear down Spine Crawlers and other buildings in a few seconds. Small Medivac drops arent that much of a problem, because the 8 Marines in a single shuttle are killed easier than having 32 of them and they wont tear down the base in an instant. ... The whole point about FEWER UNITS is that players will not use their units for doomsday missions if they cant replace them as easily. Thus big - and IMO exciting - units would become more important (because you can keep them alive more easily compared to a Marine or Zergling) and such things as repair, burrowing for regeneration or microing units to the back whose shields are gone would become important again. They are not really part of pro games anymore and that is bad.
The first approach to reducing the numbers of units has to be the removal of all production AND economic speed boosts for all races. Terrans are hit the least by this, but taking out Warp Gate and Chronoboost for Protoss and Inject Larvae for Zerg will change their "core design" a little. Protoss and Zerg need the biggest adjustments, but this is where timings could be used ... at least the production cycle timings. In addition the worker efficiency and the policy of 2 gas geysers per base could be adjusted to further slow down the unit production.
A second approach to reducing the numbers of units is to tackle the "unit density problem", which is really a shifting of the balance according to the numbers involved in a battle. The "Stalker vs. Marine" example really shows that. If the balance is acceptable for "few vs. few" and shifts for a "many vs. many" engagement then that concentration of units should be artificially limited to a certain degree as BW did it. 12 units per control group and a spread out unit movement ... while keeping the microing possibility to overcome the "soft cap" on unit density. Mutalisk micro in BW shows that the technology was already there to have super tight formations, but the devs didnt really think it was appropriate to make it easy for the players all the time.
A fight with four times the number of units is NOT four times as fun / exciting because the fight will take just as long due to the increased killing speed at the beginning while risking a "lopsided battle" due to one misclick (like not splitting your Marines correctly and losing a big chunk of them). Seeing four Zerglings from two players battle each other is more exciting than seeing 80 Roaches shoot each other ... especially if one player has the skill to win with both his Zerglings alive.
FEW Void Rays are ok, because they do not instakill. LOW NUMBERS of Medivacs are ok, because you are less likely to risk them on dangerous "decoy drop missions". FEW Infestors are not a problem, because they have periods without energy compared to a big heap of Infestors where there is always one with enough energy to Fungal. ... ...
Less is more!
tl;dr Fewer units (for both sides) on the battlefield reduces the "killing speed" and thus makes fun units less overpowered. The core game design needs to be changed to achieve that instead of fiddling around with unit design. - production speed boosts, - economic boosts, - unlimited unit selection and - automatic super tight unit movement ... all need to go!
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On March 05 2013 09:24 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote: its not that speedvacs are OP, the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. Clearly you don't understand the game, as those things are not even close to similar. I agree. Siege takes time. Stim take health. Burrow is a risk, takes time and might get caught... drops are a risk... games are a give and take of these risks and who calculates them better. I totally agree it should cost medivac energy. Like, Scans are not mules, drones are not defense - these ins and outs make Starcraft
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Hmmm, for repercution it is bad, i think an upgrade is enough or a cold down higher.
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On March 05 2013 18:12 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 18:05 Zealously wrote:On March 05 2013 16:54 MilesTeg wrote:So, that's it huh. This is the widow mine that will make it to release. This is the oracle that will make it. Forgetting balance for a moment, is there anyone who believes those units are well designed? far too much a focus on balance. I largely blame the community for that. I kind of agree. I don't remember who said it, but I read something a while ago from some game designer about asking "Is this fun and interesting?" first, and thinking about balance second. Although I think HoTS could potentially be much more interesting to watch for spectators, there is so much more that could have been more interesting. Well I find HOTs pretty cool to watch. The GSTL pre season was a lot of fun. We continue in the "omg thats gotta hurt, terribl terrible dmg" register, but seing a nice mine go off or an oracle rape a mineral line gives me a big fuckin smile Like a big storm or a funghal would... I just wonder how many people in this thread are critical of HOTs because they are Zergs and it's been complicated not to infestor themselves to victory.
I get that you might have just said this without realizing you sounded condescending....but
You do realize that you can be a Zerg player and still understand balance, right? You don't have to hate on Zerg players specifically because of the race they choose to play. The most frustrating thing about being a Zerg player is having other players react to you like you get off on playing an IMBA race (in Wings). I played Zerg because I always have, and probably always will...it's just my thing. I don't hate on people for wanting to play Terran or Protoss, so why hate Zergs?
I think it's important to remember that none of us actually BALANCES the game. I just play the units that are presented to me by Blizzard...I can't tell you how many times I've had people tell me (usually after winning a game, before GG's) that they'd like me to apologize for playing an IMBA race. This applies to all races actually...Terrans in HoTS...they just play the units that are given to them...absolutely no reason to be aggressive or condescending to Terran players on ladder. Same with SkyToss.
You can be mad as hell at the units (and at blizzard), but don't talk down to other players because they choose to play a different race then you. It sure as shit takes a lot more than "Infestor your way to victory" to win a game as Zerg and anyone who says otherwise is choosing to be difficult and ignorant for the sake of arguing. For that matter it's hard as shit for EVERYONE to win a game...that's the point of a RTS...it takes a bit of strategy...
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On March 22 2013 21:43 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 14:35 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On March 22 2013 11:31 avilo wrote: lol people calling me biased when i'm describing scenarios in TvT/PvP. I don't even... You can still be biased towards T in TvT. Basically the sum of your argument was "I can't handle medivac drops, they break me everytime, every other race can handle them but T, imba imba imba". That's biased towards your identity as the Terran who can't handle a certain form of play and is biased against it begging for a change. Doesn't matter if your opponent is P,T or Z. You are trying to whine to address your own gameplay issues, that makes you biased as you have a conflict of interest if your were to testify to this in court. Edit: and for the idiot who is going to say "it can't be imba because the other terran can do it too" and misses the obvious assertion that we are discussing bio vs mech, one phrase fits perfectly. "Two wrongs don't make a right" Tell me if this is bias: http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/380724901Watch the experiment. It's as if the missile turrets are not even there -_- Go to 29:50 if you want to really see some ridiculousness :D
I agree, the problem in TvT seems to be Terrans don't have a deterrent to Medivac drops compared to Feedback and Warp Ins or the Creep movement speed modifier and Fungal Growth. I'm not certain whether or not that means Medivac Thrusters need to be nerfed for the sake of TvT or Terran's need a deterrent to Medivac drops, but one of the things Blizzard could test is returning the Widow Mine to 160 damage base in order to threaten a one shot, one kill on Medivacs. It'd be an inadverdent boost to TvZ by being a one shot, one kill vs Roaches and Vipers, but maybe they could find a buff for Zerg like making Hydralisk range upgrade baseline that'd let Zerg push out slightly faster vs minefields.
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