Call to Action: May 2 Balance Testing by David Kim May 2, 2013 4:00 PM PDT
We’ve just published a custom version of Akilon Wastes, "Akilon Wastes (2.0.7 Balance v1.0)," in which we’re testing small balance changes to StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm. Our plan is to first consider these, and then potentially test additional changes. Here’s the situation:
Spore Crawler damage increased from 15 +15 vs. biological to 15 +30 vs. biological
As mentioned previously, we would first like to try a change for ZvZ that doesn’t affect the other matchups. The overall balance for Heart of the Swarm is in a good place right now, and we’d like to avoid altering too much while addressing the issue with Zerglings and Mutalisks being a bit too dominant in the Zerg mirror matchup.
With this change, we’re trying to strike a balance between encouraging a variety of strategies while keeping Mutalisk-based play viable. The increase to Spore Crawler damage will highly discourage players from using small packs of Mutalisks to attack a location where one or more Spore Crawlers are present. We feel this change will help bring peace of mind to Zerg players who attempt ground-based strategies since they won’t have to worry about Mutalisk harass early on. Furthermore, players who opt for ground units should now have time to build enough Spore Crawlers and other anti-air units that they can comfortably take a third or fourth base on most maps.
We consider this to be the most important balance change in this version of the test map, and we would like everyone to really focus on Zerg vs. Zerg during their playtesting so that we can iterate on a fix for the matchup in subsequent balance maps if necessary.
Poll: Second impressions of Spore Crawler change?
Thumbs up (1165)
68%
Thumbs down (425)
25%
No thumbs (125)
7%
1715 total votes
Your vote: Second impressions of Spore Crawler change?
(Vote): Thumbs up (Vote): Thumbs down (Vote): No thumbs
(Vote): Thumbs up (Vote): Thumbs down (Vote): No thumbs
Burrow research cost decreased from 100/100 to 50/50
When we originally moved the Burrow upgrade down to tier 1, our initial goal was to expand the aggressive options for Zerg in the early game. We saw some early Burrow play in the first HotS tournaments, but almost never see it being utilized anymore. We feel that there’s a decent amount of potential in this area for players and spectators alike, and want to try a buff that encourages more aggressive tactics for Zerg players at Hatchery tech.
We don’t feel that Zerg is at a disadvantage in any way during the early game, and we agree that a cost reduction to Burrow is not a must-have change. We’re just trying out the Burrow research buff for now in hopes of seeing more diverse play. If necessary, we’d like to try a few versions of the buff in order to achieve this goal. If it turns out that Burrow at tier 1 simply doesn’t accomplish what we’d like, we’re fine moving forward without implementing this change.
Poll: Second impressions of Burrow change?
Thumbs up (944)
48%
Thumbs down (910)
46%
No thumbs (111)
6%
1965 total votes
Your vote: Second impressions of Burrow change?
(Vote): Thumbs up (Vote): Thumbs down (Vote): No thumbs
(Vote): Thumbs up (Vote): Thumbs down (Vote): No thumbs
Oracle movement speed increased from 3.375 to 4
Oracle acceleration increased from 2 to 3
Of all the changes we proposed last week, the Oracle speed increase seemed to receive the most diverse feedback. We’d like to take this opportunity to address a few of the concerns that we’re seeing from players at the highest level:
We’re already seeing proxy Stargate openers, and we’ll see these tactics more frequently with this change.
In general, we’re not seeing proxy Oracles ending games, nor giving huge advantages to Protoss players. We feel that proxy strategies or hidden tech strategies are fun to watch, and we don’t think this change will have a negative impact on the game—even if players have to scout for proxy Stargates a bit more carefully.
Oracle all-ins are really strong and a speed increase will make these strategies even stronger.
Oracle all-ins are usually backed up by other units. If we increased Oracle health or damage, the all-in would be stronger, but a movement speed increase doesn’t buff a one-time all-in attack.
Oracles will be near impossible to counter with ground units if the Protoss player micros perfectly.
This actually sounds pretty cool and helps differentiate the Oracle from other harass units in the game. Oracles can also be one of the easiest harass units to deal with, depending on how you choose to fend them off. All you really need to do is place static defense in the center of your mineral line and an Oracle will be unable to deal too much economic damage there.
We also feel that the Oracle becomes increasingly interesting as a unit in situations where it is constantly threatening to pick off small groups of workers, scout bases, or track army movements with Revelation. That said, a Viking or a few
Mutalisks are all it really takes to shut down Oracles in these situations.
Overall, we feel these changes will help the Oracle become more core to the game, and give players a lot more to analyze during games in which Protoss players make use of Oracles. Our hope for the Oracle is that it will be a unit that greatly rewards players who micro really well.
Poll: Second impressions of Oracle change?
Thumbs down (1470)
61%
Thumbs up (846)
35%
No thumbs (103)
4%
2419 total votes
Your vote: Second impressions of Oracle change?
(Vote): Thumbs up (Vote): Thumbs down (Vote): No thumbs
(Vote): Thumbs up (Vote): Thumbs down (Vote): No thumbs
Thank you for your continued feedback and support. We kindly ask that you take your time to play plenty of games on the balance test map before offering your thoughts on the changes above. We’ve already reviewed your previous feedback on the proposed changes, and at this point we’re only looking for actual gameplay feedback so that we can determine whether or not we’ll need another test map.
We’d like to restate that none of the changes we addressed today are final, and feedback based on playtesting is the most helpful information you can share with us now. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test each change thoroughly, we welcome you to join us in this discussion thread.
Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
We’re already seeing proxy Stargate openers, and we’ll see these tactics more frequently with this change. In general, we’re not seeing proxy Oracles ending games, nor giving huge advantages to Protoss players. We feel that proxy strategies or hidden tech strategies are fun to watch, and we don’t think this change will have a negative impact on the game—even if players have to scout for proxy Stargates a bit more carefully.
It's just a beta test, it has to go. Please go away, never come back !
I know a lot of people complained about the oracle speed increase in the other thread but I really hope that one makes it to the final version. I think it would be cool to watch an oracle or two zip around the map picking off stray units.
I don't like the burrow change too much. The current price point is good, players will eventually start using it in clever ways, I don't see why Blizzard tries to force it to be used this way, it's not good for the integrity of the game I suppose.
On May 03 2013 08:18 TheDwf wrote: The proposed Oracle changes are a horrible idea. Don't know for ZvP and PvP but the last thing TvP needs is more lottery.
Terran already has the best scouting options in game...
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Because it doesn't. it's mostly luck based. it seems like whoever starts mutas/gets the first volley off first wins. there is very little micro you can actually do.
Why does the oracle change receive so much negative feedback? I don't recall seeing any oracles in the GSL yet, I rarely see them in other tournaments. The speed buff does not help with all-ins (who cares if you saved your two oracles when you have no army and are down 15 workers). It is an incredibly micro-intensive unit. Don't we want those units to be viable?
thought the oracle can already outrun everything on the ground that can hit air oh well. Don't like upgrades getting cheaper, I would rather like to see some upgrades getting more expensive to stretch the game, but thats just personal preference. Hope they adjust Banshee cloak at some point.
I like the Oracle buff just because it reduces the ridiculous randomness of PvP. Ok, I open Stargate but I want to be safe against DTs, so I make an Oracle. My opponent made a Phoenix, so I lose the game basically instantly. At 4 speed I might actually be able to get it away provided I don't run it directly into their Phoenix.
The acceleration change is much more deadly than the speed change in other matchups. Now you can kill a lot more fleeing workers by stuttering them.
On May 03 2013 08:32 gillon wrote: Oracle buff is retarded. Having to build ebay at 4:10 because you see 2 gas and only 2 pylons is retarded as it is.
The oracle really hasn't changed much. It'll get across the map in maybe 5 less seconds. Unless you built an ebay at 4:20 before, you don't need one at 4:10 now. It's not that big of a buff.
Mine 50 gas, get zerglings, tech burrow. Oh you want to have a natural? That will be 1 scan pls. Oh you want a wall? Another scan please. Oh you wanted to move out later with any kind of bio? Better get a raven or you will have to scan 15 times to get across the map, or you will die to baneling burrow.
Fuck that, Oracle is a bullshit unit, requires infinite scouting time to see if proxied or not, and now it's not even necessary to proxy due to how fast they get from point A-B. Oracles hit before medivacs/Vikings are out and forces a Terran to sacrifice way too much tech options in order to have a chance at defending, and even then it's never enough because you get 3-4gate Stargated and you're absolutely fucked. It's ridiculously hard to be able to scout all that at any time and properly defend at 8 minutes. Not to mention that a Terran can't really do anything until at least 10 minutes because of the Photon overcharge, almost entirely nullifying every early Terran all-in. Zerg has no AA answer unless they forcibly use Spore Crawlers, which sacrifices their economy and tech ridiculously. All-in-all, the Oracle ALREADY causes your opponent to sacrifice WAY too much infrastructure just for POSSIBLE defense, and it is not even guaranteed defense.
Plus if you take really ANY damage from an oracle, since your tech was already heavily delayed, you're playing catch up with a Protoss the entire game, which is bad considering how the 12-14 minute mark is the biggest turning point in a TvP. So you'd be screwed once that time hit and it would be so one sided.
On May 03 2013 08:36 BaaL` wrote: Mine 50 gas, get zerglings, tech burrow. Oh you want to have a natural? That will be 1 scan pls. Oh you want a wall? Another scan please. Oh you wanted to move out later with any kind of bio? Better get a raven or you will have to scan 15 times to get across the map, or you will die to baneling burrow.
ye cause you couldnt get 100 gas and do the same..
On May 03 2013 08:18 TheDwf wrote: The proposed Oracle changes are a horrible idea. Don't know for ZvP and PvP but the last thing TvP needs is more lottery.
Terran already has the best scouting options in game...
That's right overlords scans(?) are so useful at scouting proxies...
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Because there are no Scourge in SC2 which greatly limits the amount of micro involved and makes ZvZ very random and boring.
On May 03 2013 08:36 hereticfurby wrote: Fuck that, Oracle is a bullshit unit, requires infinite scouting time to see if proxied or not, and now it's not even necessary to proxy due to how fast they get from point A-B. Oracles hit before medivacs/Vikings are out and forces a Terran to sacrifice way too much tech options in order to have a chance at defending, and even then it's never enough because you get 3-4gate Stargated and you're absolutely fucked. It's ridiculously hard to be able to scout all that at any time and properly defend at 8 minutes. Not to mention that a Terran can't really do anything until at least 10 minutes because of the Photon overcharge, almost entirely nullifying every early Terran all-in. Zerg has no AA answer unless they forcibly use Spore Crawlers, which sacrifices their economy and tech ridiculously. All-in-all, the Oracle ALREADY causes your opponent to sacrifice WAY too much infrastructure just for POSSIBLE defense, and it is not even guaranteed defense.
Plus if you take really ANY damage from an oracle, since your tech was already heavily delayed, you're playing catch up with a Protoss the entire game, which is bad considering how the 12-14 minute mark is the biggest turning point in a TvP. So you'd be screwed once that time hit and it would be so one sided.
Actually: turbovac is the OP unit. It requires infinite scouting to find the proxy starport with mines or hellbats. It doesn't even need to be proxied with how fast it can boost across the map. Protoss has to sacrifice way too much economy to even be able to defend against it, and basically can never take a third. Then the terran can just get a few racks with reactors with the medivacs and it's already over. Not to mention protoss can't even attack terran because of bunkers, which nullify every protoss all-in. Plus, the medivac will always kill a few workers even with a queen or photon overcharge, which forces even more static defense. All-in-all, before the boost the medivac already forced way too much infrastructure for defense, which isn't even guaranteed since the medivac has boost so you can't even kill it off.
By the way, I like the turbo-vac, I like the oracle. The point is that every race has that super annoying unit that can deny stuff all game long, like lings for zerg.
On May 03 2013 08:24 convention wrote: Why does the oracle change receive so much negative feedback? I don't recall seeing any oracles in the GSL yet, I rarely see them in other tournaments. The speed buff does not help with all-ins (who cares if you saved your two oracles when you have no army and are down 15 workers). It is an incredibly micro-intensive unit. Don't we want those units to be viable?
Because speed isn't the problem with the oracle. When used in PvT it's pretty much an all or nothing unit. Generally it either catches you off-guard and does game ending damage or you scout it and prepare and it does nothing. The problem with the oracle is that it doesn't have a solid mid-game transition to justify spending money on a stargate unless you're continuing down that tech path or using it with your all-in.
As a terran, I have no problems with the oracle change, but having said that. I'm not a player that goes the only marine early game strat so it doesn't affect me as much.
On May 03 2013 08:36 hereticfurby wrote: Fuck that, Oracle is a bullshit unit, requires infinite scouting time to see if proxied or not, and now it's not even necessary to proxy due to how fast they get from point A-B. Oracles hit before medivacs/Vikings are out and forces a Terran to sacrifice way too much tech options in order to have a chance at defending, and even then it's never enough because you get 3-4gate Stargated and you're absolutely fucked. It's ridiculously hard to be able to scout all that at any time and properly defend at 8 minutes. Not to mention that a Terran can't really do anything until at least 10 minutes because of the Photon overcharge, almost entirely nullifying every early Terran all-in. Zerg has no AA answer unless they forcibly use Spore Crawlers, which sacrifices their economy and tech ridiculously. All-in-all, the Oracle ALREADY causes your opponent to sacrifice WAY too much infrastructure just for POSSIBLE defense, and it is not even guaranteed defense.
Plus if you take really ANY damage from an oracle, since your tech was already heavily delayed, you're playing catch up with a Protoss the entire game, which is bad considering how the 12-14 minute mark is the biggest turning point in a TvP. So you'd be screwed once that time hit and it would be so one sided.
Open on a Reaper and you get free scouting of anything the Protoss is doing. It does require you to infer some things based on unit/probe/building count to detect proxies, but you get to see their whole base whenever your want for the first 6 minutes of the game at least.
i don't really care to test it myself, but i wonder if the oracle is now fast enough to escape widow mine shots if you run as soon as it unburrows to shoot.
On May 03 2013 08:24 convention wrote: Why does the oracle change receive so much negative feedback? I don't recall seeing any oracles in the GSL yet, I rarely see them in other tournaments. The speed buff does not help with all-ins (who cares if you saved your two oracles when you have no army and are down 15 workers). It is an incredibly micro-intensive unit. Don't we want those units to be viable?
Because speed isn't the problem with the oracle. When used in PvT it's pretty much an all or nothing unit. Generally it either catches you off-guard and does game ending damage or you scout it and prepare and it does nothing. The problem with the oracle is that it doesn't have a solid mid-game transition to justify spending money on a stargate unless you're continuing down that tech path or using it with your all-in.
But speed won't help make the all-ins stronger. It will help in the lategame when you have spare gas to get a few oracles. It's actually very similar to lategame DTs. You build a few of them, and catch the other player off guard. With the added speed, you can also use them to track enemy movements as well as harass. So unlike DTs, the oracles will be able to return to a different role once the zerg/terran/protoss gets up anti-air defense.
I understand mass muta is a problem in zvz but +30 vs biological seems just ridiculous. I think they should look for a solution somewhere else, like in corruptors or hydras. Oracle buff is weird. Protoss needs a lot of work but I wouldn't start from Oracles. I just don't understand why Blizzard wants Protoss to rely on gimmicks so much.
so spore crawlers with 3 shot mutas, meaning that basically no matter how many you have the spore will kill at least 1 muta. this seems to basically kill mutas zvz, since you will need no more than 4 spores to defend all of the things when mutas first pop, and since you just took no damage without spending gas, you can easily have hydras or infestors on the way.
On May 03 2013 08:36 hereticfurby wrote: Fuck that, Oracle is a bullshit unit, requires infinite scouting time to see if proxied or not, and now it's not even necessary to proxy due to how fast they get from point A-B. Oracles hit before medivacs/Vikings are out and forces a Terran to sacrifice way too much tech options in order to have a chance at defending, and even then it's never enough because you get 3-4gate Stargated and you're absolutely fucked. It's ridiculously hard to be able to scout all that at any time and properly defend at 8 minutes. Not to mention that a Terran can't really do anything until at least 10 minutes because of the Photon overcharge, almost entirely nullifying every early Terran all-in. Zerg has no AA answer unless they forcibly use Spore Crawlers, which sacrifices their economy and tech ridiculously. All-in-all, the Oracle ALREADY causes your opponent to sacrifice WAY too much infrastructure just for POSSIBLE defense, and it is not even guaranteed defense.
Plus if you take really ANY damage from an oracle, since your tech was already heavily delayed, you're playing catch up with a Protoss the entire game, which is bad considering how the 12-14 minute mark is the biggest turning point in a TvP. So you'd be screwed once that time hit and it would be so one sided.
Open on a Reaper and you get free scouting of anything the Protoss is doing. It does require you to infer some things based on unit/probe/building count to detect proxies, but you get to see their whole base whenever your want for the first 6 minutes of the game at least.
If you open reaper you can't have 6 marines in time for proxy oracle, especially with added speed (unless maybe if you don't get a CC, which is pretty much auto-loss).
I guess the new standard TvP will be barracks, e-bay, then CC, then more barracks and/or factory. At least when you scout double gas, which honestly is such a sick opening for P I don't know why you would ever go 1 gas vs Terran.
Hopefully they don't go through with these. All of them look pretty mediocre., sometimes I wonder what Blizzard is thinking and whether they actually follow the game at all.
On May 03 2013 08:24 convention wrote: Why does the oracle change receive so much negative feedback? I don't recall seeing any oracles in the GSL yet, I rarely see them in other tournaments. The speed buff does not help with all-ins (who cares if you saved your two oracles when you have no army and are down 15 workers). It is an incredibly micro-intensive unit. Don't we want those units to be viable?
Because speed isn't the problem with the oracle. When used in PvT it's pretty much an all or nothing unit. Generally it either catches you off-guard and does game ending damage or you scout it and prepare and it does nothing. The problem with the oracle is that it doesn't have a solid mid-game transition to justify spending money on a stargate unless you're continuing down that tech path or using it with your all-in.
But speed won't help make the all-ins stronger. It will help in the lategame when you have spare gas to get a few oracles. It's actually very similar to lategame DTs. You build a few of them, and catch the other player off guard. With the added speed, you can also use them to track enemy movements as well as harass. So unlike DTs, the oracles will be able to return to a different role once the zerg/terran/protoss gets up anti-air defense.
Making all-ins stronger is not what I meant. I'm saying the speed buff won't do anything for the oracle except reinforcing its role as an all or nothing unit. You could already get a couple of oracles in the late-game before the suggested change.
Does the oracle change make it faster than the mutalisk?
I like the burrow change. Early game zerg will change a lot, I feel. It's a minimal investment for a game-long ability. Burrow timings will hit a little earlier, making it that much more deadly.
in zvz the only way to solve muta vs muta is to change the physics of the mutas( how 1 muta difference is huge) thats the only reason why muta vs is not fun right now because in many cases a player gets lucky with having the first shot or having a mis rally and that is game ending.
As a protoss dealing with oracles with the horrible dps of stalkers is already hard enough the acceleration buff is annoying rly -.- and proxy stargates do give a huge advantage or win the game if they receive no response.
Hmm, disappointing. I was expecting more Terran tears about the Oracle, ah well, there's still time I guess. Now that Burrow is the same cost as warpgate tech/con-shell upgrades it's practically too cheap not to get at tier one. Could potentially make the 1 gate expand ill-advisable in PvZ.
I think there's a good chance the zerg buffs will make the next patch. I somewhat doubt the Oracle will retain its speed and acceleration increase but as a Protoss player I hope at least one of them makes the cut.
On May 03 2013 08:44 Cloak wrote: The Corruptor should be the one with +bio. Theoretically Corruptors should just be a better unit, but that'd destroy balance.
How? Nothing else in the air is a bio unit but Zerg air.
If you had Corruptors in ZvZ in addition to Mutas, the fight would theoretically swing in favour with the person who has Corruptors right?
On May 03 2013 08:44 Cloak wrote: The Corruptor should be the one with +bio. Theoretically Corruptors should just be a better unit, but that'd destroy balance.
I think the whole point about the spore buff is to give a chance to players who go for ground armies. If you buff corrupter's you still have to build a spire, and then it'll just go from muta ball V muta ball to muta-corrupter ball V muta-corrupter ball. It doesn't solve anything.
On May 03 2013 08:36 hereticfurby wrote: Fuck that, Oracle is a bullshit unit, requires infinite scouting time to see if proxied or not, and now it's not even necessary to proxy due to how fast they get from point A-B. Oracles hit before medivacs/Vikings are out and forces a Terran to sacrifice way too much tech options in order to have a chance at defending, and even then it's never enough because you get 3-4gate Stargated and you're absolutely fucked. It's ridiculously hard to be able to scout all that at any time and properly defend at 8 minutes. Not to mention that a Terran can't really do anything until at least 10 minutes because of the Photon overcharge, almost entirely nullifying every early Terran all-in. Zerg has no AA answer unless they forcibly use Spore Crawlers, which sacrifices their economy and tech ridiculously. All-in-all, the Oracle ALREADY causes your opponent to sacrifice WAY too much infrastructure just for POSSIBLE defense, and it is not even guaranteed defense.
Plus if you take really ANY damage from an oracle, since your tech was already heavily delayed, you're playing catch up with a Protoss the entire game, which is bad considering how the 12-14 minute mark is the biggest turning point in a TvP. So you'd be screwed once that time hit and it would be so one sided.
Open on a Reaper and you get free scouting of anything the Protoss is doing. It does require you to infer some things based on unit/probe/building count to detect proxies, but you get to see their whole base whenever your want for the first 6 minutes of the game at least.
If you open reaper you can't have 6 marines in time for proxy oracle, especially with added speed (unless maybe if you don't get a CC, which is pretty much auto-loss).
I guess the new standard TvP will be barracks, e-bay, then CC, then more barracks and/or factory. At least when you scout double gas, which honestly is such a sick opening for P I don't know why you would ever go 1 gas vs Terran.
This is true. There is no such thing as a guaranteed full base scout when opening reaper. If the Protoss is good with zoning your reaper out with his stalker and MSC it can be hard to get a proper scout off. You could scout 2 gas with 2 probes in each and assume he's going to expo but you can't know if he puts a third in after your reaper gets chased away. He might throw up the stargate after his nexus or he proxied it somewhere on the map. Counting pylons isn't always reliable but is generally the best way to know if it's proxied or not and the fastest versions of it is extremely tight to hold if you open reaper.
Mutalisks are all it really takes to shut down Oracles in these situations.
They should not be the same speed as a Mutalisk, this means they will not shut down Oracles because they can just run away and wait for the Phoenix to show up and win the game. Seriously they're are enough units that the Protoss can build that auto counter anything the Zerg is attempting to do. If they open Stargate it counters almost everything the Zerg can do. Mutalisk out of the picture, Hydras? Nope Colossus are out before they reach my third. Hive tech Zergling / Ultra just go Templar, Immortal, Archon and sit back and take those points.
They are not addressing anything that has any value to the game. Why are you looking for ways to improve a small aspect of this game when they're obviously huge flaws lying within the standard games. Right now is not the time to do slight improvements to the early game, its time to take a look at what units are doing to well and do slight nerfing here and there.
Like.. Voidrays or Widowmines... BUT seriously Hellbats... why are they healable lol...
On May 03 2013 08:47 turdburgler wrote: so spore crawlers with 3 shot mutas, meaning that basically no matter how many you have the spore will kill at least 1 muta. this seems to basically kill mutas zvz, since you will need no more than 4 spores to defend all of the things when mutas first pop, and since you just took no damage without spending gas, you can easily have hydras or infestors on the way.
making for a more exciting, diverse game.
right now you just have to go muta or all-in. I've tried ground for weeks and it's just a super uphill battle the whole time and, versus anyone competent, you just get overrun. mass muta is too strong. they can out expand so easily, counterattack with lings...it's just endless. And it's cost efficient.
Not saying this is the ideal change, but it buys time for a ground army to actually work. Currently, spores tickle mutas, and nothing else is effective. Not good design.
Could care less about the Oracle, as they said a spore will keep it away.
Burrow I really want to start using more burrow play personally but to get it early it throws my builds off terribly that early in the game so I like that.
As for Spore damage, I love it, I HATE muta battles, sure they're fun to WATCH but to play them is just boring and frustrating.
OMG I'M FREAKING OUT!!! THEY CHANGE THINGS AND ITS ALL BROKEN!!
Seriously, pretty excited about these changes. I'm not sure about the burrow change, but I don't really mind that. I like the fact the oracles are a little zipper, but nothing nuts.
On May 03 2013 08:47 turdburgler wrote: so spore crawlers with 3 shot mutas, meaning that basically no matter how many you have the spore will kill at least 1 muta. this seems to basically kill mutas zvz, since you will need no more than 4 spores to defend all of the things when mutas first pop, and since you just took no damage without spending gas, you can easily have hydras or infestors on the way.
making for a more exciting, diverse game.
right now you just have to go muta or all-in. I've tried ground for weeks and it's just a super uphill battle the whole time and, versus anyone competent, you just get overrun. mass muta is too strong. they can out expand so easily, counterattack with lings...it's just endless. And it's cost efficient.
Not saying this is the ideal change, but it buys time for a ground army to actually work. Currently, spores tickle mutas, and nothing else is effective. Not good design.
but if mutas arent an option the game will quickly devolve back in to roach infestor because until a critical mass is reached where areas become too small pure roach beats roach hydra. its not making games more diverse its just exchanging 1 unit comp for another.
personally i would like to see them increase the build time for the spire by 10-20 seconds. imo the biggest problem with these zvz builds is that scouting the spire, building a large army and then crossing the map is too small a timing. if you scout a spire thats 25% done and dont have roach speed started, you probably cant get to his base with a large enough army to end the game. if the window you could hit was slightly larger rushing to mutas off of 20 lings wouldnt be as easy.
On May 03 2013 09:03 Buddy168 wrote: Could care less about the Oracle, as they said a spore will keep it away.
Burrow I really want to start using more burrow play personally but to get it early it throws my builds off terribly that early in the game so I like that.
As for Spore damage, I love it, I HATE muta battles, sure they're fun to WATCH but to play them is just boring and frustrating.
the problem with their logic for dealing with oracles, is that as terran a stargate + 1 oracle always pays for itself. assuming the game is fairly standard, it flies in to your base and picks off 3-4 workers once, you now have to build minimum 2 turrets, and even then you arent getting coverage for your gas miners, and bam - pays off every time.
im not saying the oracle is imba, or that i dont like this buff, because its always nice to see changes the encourage micro, but their reasoning is horrific. dont worry concerned zergs, you can just spend double the cost of the oracle on some mutas, or dont worry terrans at least you dont out right die.
every strat should be risk vs reward and it seems that with oracles, there is no risk.
On May 03 2013 08:36 hereticfurby wrote: Fuck that, Oracle is a bullshit unit, requires infinite scouting time to see if proxied or not, and now it's not even necessary to proxy due to how fast they get from point A-B. Oracles hit before medivacs/Vikings are out and forces a Terran to sacrifice way too much tech options in order to have a chance at defending, and even then it's never enough because you get 3-4gate Stargated and you're absolutely fucked. It's ridiculously hard to be able to scout all that at any time and properly defend at 8 minutes. Not to mention that a Terran can't really do anything until at least 10 minutes because of the Photon overcharge, almost entirely nullifying every early Terran all-in. Zerg has no AA answer unless they forcibly use Spore Crawlers, which sacrifices their economy and tech ridiculously. All-in-all, the Oracle ALREADY causes your opponent to sacrifice WAY too much infrastructure just for POSSIBLE defense, and it is not even guaranteed defense.
Plus if you take really ANY damage from an oracle, since your tech was already heavily delayed, you're playing catch up with a Protoss the entire game, which is bad considering how the 12-14 minute mark is the biggest turning point in a TvP. So you'd be screwed once that time hit and it would be so one sided.
Yes, because we see them SO MUCH in competitive play....................................
Plus, Terran gets Medivacs that are really hard to catch with boost, and Zerg has extra fast HotS Mutas. Why should Protoss be screwed on harass options?
Would be nice for photon cannons to get a similar buff (I'm not sure how they could do it only to mutas though as they hit ground also and a bio buff would have implications on a wide variety). Cannons are so terribad vs mutas
Similar to the zerg, I would really would like to see ebay requirement for turret thrown out if the oracle change goes through. And if indeed an oracle can escape a widow mine now, seems as if it would be a necessity.
These are decent changes. I doubt they will break the game, let alone make it less fun. I'm personally still waiting on a tank buff since I really want to see them more in TvZ and TvP.
love the changes! the +30 vs bio I think will create a nice dynamic on ZvZ.
And finally protoss get a harass unit like terran drops or zerg mutalisk... but it is still different with it's own cons like: -the damage it can do is limited by it's energy. -cost 150/150/3 + 150/150 (stargate that is dead end tech on PvT) so it needs to kill like 9+ workers to pay for itself. -is easilly denied by static defense. -can't really engage/disengage all the time (it costs 25 energy to activate attack so when you use it you better be sure hit something with it)
Not sure who thumbed down the oracle change, but pretty sure that it's by people who haven't tested it. It merely makes the oracle less annoying to use. If I want to build oracles in PvT in a build that is not all-in I need to be able to navigate them around the map safely, which means I need to be able to use them to detect while I pick up widow mines with phoenix, otherwise I just have to say a hail mary and hope they don't just evaporate mid map. This is possible right now, but extremely annoying to do now that they are slightly slower than the phoenix with very sluggish acceleration. When you tag them on your phoenix, you fly in, spot some stimmed marines, turn phoenix arround - > oracle crawls to a halt, stays still, starts moving again, aaaaand it's dead. I don't know how many times I've flown oracles into widow mines that I had already spotted because it's so slow to decelerate. This changes nothing about the part that terrans complain about which is the part where an oracle flies into your mineral line, and you have no more scv's. I think the change is great, it makes it less binary: oh you have a turret/widow mine/6 marines, guess I'm way behind now! her derp! Or: oh you went reaper straight into reactor helions, I winz the game naow!
Blizzard really does not know good balance changes from bad.
Oracle one is a good change, but it will definitely be too "strong". I just hope they do not nerf it and provide means to deal with them. Good balance changes increase the skillcap of units. Silly changes like damage buffs allow players to control them the exact same as they have been but get better results. no no =\
I must be the only terran who has no issues dealing even with proxy oracle at the moment. The speedboost should mean late game revelation will be used more which is great.
On May 03 2013 09:15 larse wrote: Well, Terran doesn't worry about Oracle too much.
But Zerg will have a hard time against oracle.
How do you figure? Overlords spot it coming in advance, spores don't require evo and you can move them, queens are already there anyway. Terran will basically have to go 12rax15ebay now, lol, and then you die to any allin.
- Spore change looks awesome. - Burrow revisions are a good idea, but 50/50 is wrong way to go methinks. Keep the cost, reduce the research time. The investment is necessary to offset additional units/econ growth, but adjusting the time at which it reaches the field is still cool, I would love to see more ground-base zerg play. - Oracle changes are in theory awesome, but this is not a slight move by any means! That's a huge 19% increase in overall speed, and 50% increase in acceleration! Way too much. Half this or something and maybe.
On May 03 2013 08:44 Cloak wrote: The Corruptor should be the one with +bio. Theoretically Corruptors should just be a better unit, but that'd destroy balance.
How? Nothing else in the air is a bio unit but Zerg air.
If you had Corruptors in ZvZ in addition to Mutas, the fight would theoretically swing in favour with the person who has Corruptors right?
They're two separate thoughts. 1) Corruptors should be +bio. Or 2) The Corruptor should be redone, but DK is very change averse.
Dont really like the oracle buff. I think they needed to change the oracle in a way to nerf the insane light-dps, but at the same time make it a more durable unit. I don't really feel the change does that in any way, just buffs what it is already good at, worker harrass when the opponent isn't ready for it.
Also I'd love to see more burrow, still think 100/100 is a pretty good deal for it already. Don't know how I feel about the change, I think Blizzard should make things viable(which I think burrow already is), but not force playstyles down our throats.
On May 03 2013 08:44 Cloak wrote: The Corruptor should be the one with +bio. Theoretically Corruptors should just be a better unit, but that'd destroy balance.
I think the whole point about the spore buff is to give a chance to players who go for ground armies. If you buff corrupter's you still have to build a spire, and then it'll just go from muta ball V muta ball to muta-corrupter ball V muta-corrupter ball. It doesn't solve anything.
Well, mostly because the Muta vs Muta air dynamic is stale. Scourge were dedicated AtA and were only good for vying for Muta control, whoever won the Muta battle manifested as killing everything else. Corruptor is the AtA dynamic in SC2, and is notably absent. Muta will probably always be the dominant ZvZ meta, so why not flesh it out?
Spore buff is theo nly buff that makes sense. Why do zergs need cheaper burrow? Oracle is already super fast...And the oracle can end games. The way the unit works is its either LoL your noob you did no dmg with oracle. Or LoL 8 workers died.
On May 03 2013 09:23 Qikz wrote: I must be the only terran who has no issues dealing even with proxy oracle at the moment. The speedboost should mean late game revelation will be used more which is great.
This is what I'm more excited about, really. Revelation is an amazingly underused skill, but currently you have a super high risk of losing your Oracle trying to tag the army. Everyone focuses so much on early game damage oracles do but, really, they shine a lot more in the later game IMO with the scouting they can provide.
On May 03 2013 09:31 Zarahtra wrote: Dont really like the oracle buff. I think they needed to change the oracle in a way to nerf the insane light-dps, but at the same time make it a more durable unit. I don't really feel the change does that in any way, just buffs what it is already good at, worker harrass when the opponent isn't ready for it.
Also I'd love to see more burrow, still think 100/100 is a pretty good deal for it already. Don't know how I feel about the change, I think Blizzard should make things viable(which I think burrow already is), but not force playstyles down our throats.
looks like you just want it to be another stupid protoss unit with HP but no damage....
I think Blizzard and their balance crew might actually be retarded for thinking Oracles needed a speed buff. They are a horribly designed unit which does very little for the game. If they want skill to have an impact on Oracles, then they should make it a micro-heavy air unit like Banshees. Banshees = good, Oracles = bad. They kill workers/light units instantly, which is just stupid. They are already fast enough that they can get in there, kill 2-3 workers and run out even with a turret attacking, and they will only lose shield. I don't even mind Oracles that much in all-ins, it's just the harass that's bad.
Spore change is alright, except they should just change mutalisks. If they are going to be as fast as they are, they should deal a bit less damage (think Reapers almost). Mutalisk switches are lame and are a bit strong right now, too.
Burrow? Sure, why not make it 50-50. Maybe people will use it for scouting and delaying bases. There might be interested burrow timings, which I think are alright since Burrow micro is actually good and not totally 1 dimensional.
This might actually be a test I try out. Really not too sure about buffing spores further just yet. I hate muta vs muta but I still want it to be an option, just not the dominant composition. This spore buff may kill mutas completely.
75 minerals and a drone for a 400 hp structure with 7 range and a dps of 52 vs mutas (3 shots them) that only requires a spawning pool? idk seems a little too good now.
I'm elated in the burrow change though (Leenock probably is too :p ). 50/50 and the same build time as a hatchery should open up some interesting early game options. I think defending in ZvZ will be a lot easier.
On May 03 2013 08:44 Cloak wrote: The Corruptor should be the one with +bio. Theoretically Corruptors should just be a better unit, but that'd destroy balance.
How? Nothing else in the air is a bio unit but Zerg air.
If you had Corruptors in ZvZ in addition to Mutas, the fight would theoretically swing in favour with the person who has Corruptors right?
Adding +bio to corruptors would do nothing to solve the muta issue. They have the same problem as phoenix against mutas, they don't shoot down. If you keep them in your base your opponent will take the whole map, if you try to move out with them the mutas will just backstab you and win with a base trade.
On May 03 2013 09:31 Zarahtra wrote: Dont really like the oracle buff. I think they needed to change the oracle in a way to nerf the insane light-dps, but at the same time make it a more durable unit. I don't really feel the change does that in any way, just buffs what it is already good at, worker harrass when the opponent isn't ready for it.
Also I'd love to see more burrow, still think 100/100 is a pretty good deal for it already. Don't know how I feel about the change, I think Blizzard should make things viable(which I think burrow already is), but not force playstyles down our throats.
looks like you just want it to be another stupid protoss unit with HP but no damage....
That's a very stupid conclusion to come by from my post. I just don't want it to be a "either my opponent has defense against it or he doesn't". As it is, the oracle does almost 0 dmg or it does game ending dmg. Ofcourse I want both options to still be there, but I'd prefer it to do most of the time dmg somewhere in between those two, and like I said, for the oracle to have some place in the protoss army. The only good thing about this buff is that it makes the oracle better for revelation in the lategame.
I'm zerg and I think all changes are retarded. Buffing spore won't change the fact that the muta player will have map control and can get a faster economy going to crush a roach hydra infestor army. Burrow is fine the way it is, making it that cheap will probably just make it so some really retarded super fast burrow rush to deny a natural or something... Oracle already seems fast enough, it's not like it's not used because it's "slow".
On May 03 2013 08:18 TheDwf wrote: The proposed Oracle changes are a horrible idea. Don't know for ZvP and PvP but the last thing TvP needs is more lottery.
Terran already has the best scouting options in game...
That would be Protoss
Either way you look at it, terran has it worst in that department.
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Because it doesn't. it's mostly luck based. it seems like whoever starts mutas/gets the first volley off first wins. there is very little micro you can actually do.
This is so untrue... Don't talk if you have no idea what you're talking about. Players made careers out of their superior Muta micro
The only reason I can think of for giving the Oracle change a thumbs down is a player not wanting to have to deal with it. Oracles get little use now, and they could allow for more multitasking scenarios late game. It's a huge thumbs up from a spectator perspective, and I think it may be a nice change for Protoss from a gameplay perspective.
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Because it doesn't. it's mostly luck based. it seems like whoever starts mutas/gets the first volley off first wins. there is very little micro you can actually do.
This is so untrue... Don't talk if you have no idea what you're talking about. Players made careers out of their superior Muta micro
The thing is, there isn't much room to show off Muta micro anymore without scourge. I'm not a fan of buffing static defense because I feel it cripples the different ways Mutas can be used.
On May 03 2013 09:56 MateShade wrote: This is so untrue... Don't talk if you have no idea what you're talking about. Players made careers out of their superior Muta micro
People made careers out of superior Muta micro in a game where you could only control 12 units, thus better multitasking was rewarded. In SC2 you can control all your mutas at once which makes all of this moot. You get the first volley off, you win the game instantly.
On May 03 2013 09:56 MateShade wrote: This is so untrue... Don't talk if you have no idea what you're talking about. Players made careers out of their superior Muta micro
People made careers out of superior Muta micro in a game where you could only control 12 units, thus better multitasking was rewarded. In SC2 you can control all your mutas at once which makes all of this moot. You get the first volley off, you win the game instantly.
Plus Muta micro in SC2 is nothing compared to Muta micro in BW.
As a spectator, I'm glad that their trying to address mutas in the ZvZ matchup. While it's interesting how razor-thin and upgrade-dependent muta vs muta is, it doesn't show on the screen. It's very difficult to 'read' or decipher who is ahead or behind, and boring when EVERY ZvZ seems to come down to who was able to make the most mutas.
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Because it doesn't. it's mostly luck based. it seems like whoever starts mutas/gets the first volley off first wins. there is very little micro you can actually do.
This is so untrue... Don't talk if you have no idea what you're talking about. Players made careers out of their superior Muta micro
The thing is, there isn't much room to show off Muta micro anymore without scourge. I'm not a fan of buffing static defense because I feel it cripples the different ways Mutas can be used.
Yeah, I would actually really like to see Scourge added to the game. Makes ZvZ more interesting, gives more options vs late game Skytoss. Everyone wins!
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Because it doesn't. it's mostly luck based. it seems like whoever starts mutas/gets the first volley off first wins. there is very little micro you can actually do.
This is so untrue... Don't talk if you have no idea what you're talking about. Players made careers out of their superior Muta micro
The thing is, there isn't much room to show off Muta micro anymore without scourge. I'm not a fan of buffing static defense because I feel it cripples the different ways Mutas can be used.
Yeah, I would actually really like to see Scourge added to the game. Makes ZvZ more interesting, gives more options vs late game Skytoss. Everyone wins!
On May 03 2013 08:36 BaaL` wrote: Mine 50 gas, get zerglings, tech burrow. Oh you want to have a natural? That will be 1 scan pls. Oh you want a wall? Another scan please. Oh you wanted to move out later with any kind of bio? Better get a raven or you will have to scan 15 times to get across the map, or you will die to baneling burrow.
The sky isn't falling. And don't worry, your 57-43 winrate TvZ will largely remain untouched.
On May 03 2013 10:03 Defacer wrote: As a spectator, I'm glad that their trying to address mutas in the ZvZ matchup. While it's interesting how razor-thin and upgrade-dependent muta vs muta is, it doesn't show on the screen. It's very difficult to 'read' or decipher who is ahead or behind, and boring when EVERY ZvZ seems to come down to who was able to make the most mutas.
Yeah cause watching people camp at static defense is exciting from a spectator's point of view...
Just went in to try on some roach burrow rush, you'll be able to have atleast 6 roaches with burrow at opponents natural at 5:30, 11 at 6:45. Promoting more 1base play seems to be an awesome way to make it a better game, gj Blizzard.
I think the burrow change is too drastic. 50/50 is too damn low imho, I think changing it to 75/75 is perfect, but that's the point of beta testing. Haha.
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Because it doesn't. it's mostly luck based. it seems like whoever starts mutas/gets the first volley off first wins. there is very little micro you can actually do.
This is so untrue... Don't talk if you have no idea what you're talking about. Players made careers out of their superior Muta micro
The thing is, there isn't much room to show off Muta micro anymore without scourge. I'm not a fan of buffing static defense because I feel it cripples the different ways Mutas can be used.
Yeah, I would actually really like to see Scourge added to the game. Makes ZvZ more interesting, gives more options vs late game Skytoss. Everyone wins!
Except the colossus. The colossus loses big time.
Even as a Protoss player I wouldn't mind that, Colossus so boring
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Because it doesn't. it's mostly luck based. it seems like whoever starts mutas/gets the first volley off first wins. there is very little micro you can actually do.
This is so untrue... Don't talk if you have no idea what you're talking about. Players made careers out of their superior Muta micro
The thing is, there isn't much room to show off Muta micro anymore without scourge. I'm not a fan of buffing static defense because I feel it cripples the different ways Mutas can be used.
Yeah, I would actually really like to see Scourge added to the game. Makes ZvZ more interesting, gives more options vs late game Skytoss. Everyone wins!
Except the colossus. The colossus loses big time.
Not really, Scourge are insanely low HP and can be protected by Stalkers and micro.
the implications of these patches to terran is just plain scary. Can't even think of early marine pressure now. Absolutely must make turrets now. and is in danger of losing entire armies to bane mines now because EVERY zerg will take advantage of it.
On May 03 2013 10:23 reyder wrote: the implications of these patches to terran is just plain scary. Can't even think of early marine pressure now. Absolutely must make turrets now. and is in danger of losing entire armies to bane mines now because EVERY zerg will take advantage of it.
God forbid Terran players have to play somewhat scared! The other two races live in constant fear of medivacs, mines, hellbats, even banshees still.
Zero sympathy.
On May 03 2013 10:24 stevarius wrote: I hope the developers get muddbutt for the next month for even considering buffing oracles.
THEY WANT PROTOSS TO COMMITT TO ALL-INS INVOLVING THEM? Did I read this shit correctly?
On May 03 2013 10:03 Defacer wrote: As a spectator, I'm glad that their trying to address mutas in the ZvZ matchup. While it's interesting how razor-thin and upgrade-dependent muta vs muta is, it doesn't show on the screen. It's very difficult to 'read' or decipher who is ahead or behind, and boring when EVERY ZvZ seems to come down to who was able to make the most mutas.
Yeah cause watching people camp at static defense is exciting from a spectator's point of view...
Just went in to try on some roach burrow rush, you'll be able to have atleast 6 roaches with burrow at opponents natural at 5:30, 11 at 6:45. Promoting more 1base play seems to be an awesome way to make it a better game, gj Blizzard.
Ooooooooohhhhhhh yeah, that's what I said ...
I love it when nerds imagine things to disagree with.
I don't see why people like the spore buff, its going to be horrible lol. Muta/ling/bane will still be stronger than roach/hydra/infestor because of the same issues as before. Roach/hydra/infestor can't push out for a while because banes will wreck it. and when its large enough the muta player should be on ultras.
AND if it stays muta vs muta this means that if you're behind just sit above 3 spore crawlers and the muta player thats ahead can not kill you for any reason. Its just going to reward really really bad players and create a horribly stale play.
So AGIANTSMURF writes a guide about his PvT, based around including an early forge in his standard build order because of the incredible threat presented by Widow Mines, and here people that have never experienced a build-order loss to cloaked Banshees find Oracles interesting somehow.
Okay, so you're comfortable abusing Robo openers, I get that. Should Stargates be dangerous? Should Oracles be a game-changer?
So... I played the balance test map, did a one base roach rush with burrow vs a protoss, he called me a bronze scrub and started flaming me for not macroing and then he ignored me, lol.
Not sure why Blizzard wants to force early burrow as well. I think 75/75 is reasonable I guess.
Didn't think Oracles needed a buff, they were already pretty good units. If they must buff, a smart approach would be not to do a double buff, and just choose one for now.
On May 03 2013 10:52 Thrillz wrote: Not sure is Spore buff is the answer to Muta ZvZ.
Not sure why Blizzard wants to force early burrow as well. I think 75/75 is reasonable I guess.
Didn't think Oracles needed a buff, they were already pretty good units. If they must buff, a smart approach would be not to do a double buff, and just choose one for now.
Movement is a combination of speed and acceleration. Just because you saw 2 numbers change does not make it a double buff... If you increase speed but not acceleration you get a more unresponsive unit.
On May 03 2013 10:52 Thrillz wrote: Not sure is Spore buff is the answer to Muta ZvZ.
Not sure why Blizzard wants to force early burrow as well. I think 75/75 is reasonable I guess.
Didn't think Oracles needed a buff, they were already pretty good units. If they must buff, a smart approach would be not to do a double buff, and just choose one for now.
Movement is a combination of speed and acceleration. Just because you saw 2 numbers change does not make it a double buff... If you increase speed but not acceleration you get a more unresponsive unit.
So should we be seeing oracles zooming across the map at afterburner speeds now?
On May 03 2013 10:52 Thrillz wrote: Not sure is Spore buff is the answer to Muta ZvZ.
Not sure why Blizzard wants to force early burrow as well. I think 75/75 is reasonable I guess.
Didn't think Oracles needed a buff, they were already pretty good units. If they must buff, a smart approach would be not to do a double buff, and just choose one for now.
Movement is a combination of speed and acceleration. Just because you saw 2 numbers change does not make it a double buff... If you increase speed but not acceleration you get a more unresponsive unit.
It is a double buff though. Speed and acceleration are completely different things, although both affect mobility. Mutas got a speed boost but no acceleration boost. Personally I'd prefer acceleration if I had to, though I'd have to see what the good number would be.
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
I don't think they're trying to stop muta vs. muta for those that want to do it. But I think they want to give players who go with a ground army a chance at some map control.
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
I don't think they're trying to stop muta vs. muta for those that want to do it. But I think they want to give players who go with a ground army a chance at some map control.
You don't get map control with static defense. That seems to be the legit complaint about the Spore buff that I've seen, it doesn't address that issue.
On May 03 2013 10:53 Advantageous wrote: General population of players on all servers are Zerg. So these polls dont mean shit. Take a poll of the pros then lets talk.
I like the oracle change, haven't tried it, but in theory it sounds good. Seems to be alot of whiners though, so maybe increase the oracle build time by a smidge?
On May 03 2013 11:27 IamPryda wrote: Lol at ppl bitching about oracles. Compared to new mutas and medicvac boost oracles are not hard to stop
I've tried, no one listens. Apparently the small speed buff means ebays have to be built a full minute earlier. And it means that now terran can never leave their base. It also means that proxy stargates are going to be twice as powerful.
Buffing the oracle is a terrible idea, hopefully the community gets through to Blizzard on this one because they are already kinda bogus. If they delay the tech where you get them I might be ok with it.
On May 03 2013 10:53 Advantageous wrote: General population of players on all servers are Zerg. So these polls dont mean shit. Take a poll of the pros then lets talk.
On May 03 2013 11:46 DooMDash wrote: I play mech terran. No, tanks at 2 supply would be way too good late game. I already abuse critical mass tanks at 200/200.
I have been saying since mid-WoL that they should get +1 more dmg vs light, and +2 more dmg vs armored per upgrade level instead.
tanks are only really used professionally in TvT
if they made the supply 2 then a maxed mech composition would be stronger in TvP and wouldn't really do that much for TvZ since ultras, vipers, and swarmhosts deal with tanks fine depending on what comp they are used in
The only change I'm on board with is the Spore buff. It's good to see them toying around with things, but I hope only the Spore change makes it through the testing process.
On May 03 2013 11:46 DooMDash wrote: I play mech terran. No, tanks at 2 supply would be way too good late game. I already abuse critical mass tanks at 200/200.
I have been saying since mid-WoL that they should get +1 more dmg vs light, and +2 more dmg vs armored per upgrade level instead.
tanks are only really used professionally in TvT
if they made the supply 2 then a maxed mech composition would be stronger in TvP and wouldn't really do that much for TvZ since ultras, vipers, and swarmhosts deal with tanks fine depending on what comp they are used in
They are still good, and better in HotS because of better support ( Battle Hellions ). I would say they are not explored enough at pro level, or its just easier to go speedivac / widow mines. Still I really think that would be broken, I already do fine with tank play. They need a much smaller buff, and my purposed idea still helps them late game but not too drastically.
kinda dislike the spore and oracle changes. I think they're better off buffing the hydras. I know they said that they don't want to affect the other match ups but I think the hydras need a buff anyway. The oracle buff is just ridiculous.
Another change I'd like to see is a change in siege tank damage, maybe by 5 because right now they're only being used in TvT and widow mines can sometimes be inconsistent.
On May 03 2013 11:46 DooMDash wrote: I play mech terran. No, tanks at 2 supply would be way too good late game. I already abuse critical mass tanks at 200/200.
I have been saying since mid-WoL that they should get +1 more dmg vs light, and +2 more dmg vs armored per upgrade level instead.
tanks are only really used professionally in TvT
if they made the supply 2 then a maxed mech composition would be stronger in TvP and wouldn't really do that much for TvZ since ultras, vipers, and swarmhosts deal with tanks fine depending on what comp they are used in
The problem with mech in TvP is not losing max v max battles (mech actually are very strong in those battles), it's getting there that is almost impossible.
their logic behind the oracle movement speed buff really made no sense. I like the zerg changes, but I dont know where they are going with the oracle change.
On May 03 2013 10:53 Advantageous wrote: General population of players on all servers are Zerg. So these polls dont mean shit. Take a poll of the pros then lets talk.
On May 03 2013 11:46 DooMDash wrote: I play mech terran. No, tanks at 2 supply would be way too good late game. I already abuse critical mass tanks at 200/200.
I have been saying since mid-WoL that they should get +1 more dmg vs light, and +2 more dmg vs armored per upgrade level instead.
tanks are only really used professionally in TvT
if they made the supply 2 then a maxed mech composition would be stronger in TvP and wouldn't really do that much for TvZ since ultras, vipers, and swarmhosts deal with tanks fine depending on what comp they are used in
The problem with mech in TvP is not losing max v max battles (mech actually are very strong in those battles), it's getting there that is almost impossible.
Not true. Just open 1-1-1 and its easy to be strong enough to transition into a stable mech game.
On May 03 2013 11:56 convention wrote: The problem with mech in TvP is not losing max v max battles (mech actually are very strong in those battles), it's getting there that is almost impossible.
getting there is doable on certain maps but certainly not on all maps. akilon wastes, for example, is really defensive and allows for a relatively easy 3rd and 4th. it's just too weak for what it's supposed to be, especially if they switch between air and ground units. lowering tank supply only really affects the maxed composition when going mech vs P which doesn't trade well enough once attained for its immobility, especially with the new void rays forcing some more thors and/or vikings.
On May 03 2013 12:11 GoodSirTets wrote: It's not that the oracle change in the problem, it's just a poorly designed gimmicky unit in the first place....
What makes the oracle a gimmick? Is the raven also a gimmick? I don't see the difference of those two units.
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Because it doesn't. it's mostly luck based. it seems like whoever starts mutas/gets the first volley off first wins. there is very little micro you can actually do.
I agree. Currently ZvZ Muta Wars is really bad in SC2 compared to BW. For ZvZ Muta Wars to be as good as BW, they need to:
1. Return mechanics of how Mutalisk (and potentially other units too) were controlled in BW. This page and this Mutalisk vs Scourge page details on how Mutalisk were controlled in BW.
It was very practical and easy to do. An important thing about most of BW's mechanics is that they were all "very practical to do (and easy to learn) but they had almost unlimited potential for good players" (I'd say "easy to learn but hard to master" but that phrased is used for everything by like nearly every game developer for everything, and it's like a cliche now >.>).
2. Add scourge back (maybe only against ZvZ if they're too strong in other matchups, like someone said this on Inside the Game thread but something like 50 damage against non-bio units while +60 against bio units, total of 110 against bio).
_______________
Anyway as for the Oracle change. Well, we'll have to see. I like the concept but I guess we'll have to see in game.
Kind of disappointed in Protoss in HotS (minus the Mothership Core which is neat, Tempest are also okay too). They need to bring back the Reaver. The reaver (IMO) is one of the best designed RTS unit of all time. It's simple but yet it was fun to mirco with and micro against.
The Scarabs were slow enough that the opponent could try to split (which is I know is typical for an AoE unit) or try to run behind structures or something to block the Scarab's path (the more the Scarab is blocked, the more likely it will be a "dud" and will miss and do no damage) (and the scarab following ground pathing and being blockable is one of the things that makes it unique as an AoE ranged unit).
As a user of Reaver, trying to aim for a target to deal the most damage (kind of like Widow Mines except they were 100x more practical to do and you were likely doing it while doing shuttle micro) was one fun aspect of using Reavers too.
Reavers are one of those rare units that it involved and invoked (fun) micro on both sides. (Most of the time, it's either one player a-moves and the other player tries to micro against it. It's rarely like the Reaver where the unit invoked micro on both sides.)
Dunno why there's so much crying about oracles when one viking or one turret in mineral line still shuts them down just as hard. The whole unit needs a redesign so it can be more useful outside of early game.
The spore crawler change fixes nothing and just makes SC2 more "patchy".
Small groups of mutas are already deterred by ONE spore crawler, large groups of mutas ignore them utterly. This might change the definition of a small group vs. a large group, but the strength in muta comps in ZvZ is the map control, and that's something that spore crawlers don't affect.
On May 03 2013 12:11 GoodSirTets wrote: It's not that the oracle change in the problem, it's just a poorly designed gimmicky unit in the first place....
What makes the oracle a gimmick? Is the raven also a gimmick? I don't see the difference of those two units.
You don't rely in raven to do damage and its utility gets better as the game progresses. Oracle relies on early harass and pretty useless as a support unit That's why u dun have people getting raven early or Oracle in mid late game
On May 03 2013 12:31 tomatriedes wrote: Dunno why there's so much crying about oracles when one viking or one turret in mineral line still shuts them down just as hard. The whole unit needs a redesign so it can be more useful outside of early game.
Oracle is quite effective past early game, revelation is a great tool for map vision and scouting.
Spores were already sick good ZvZ. I don't see how this change is going to allow for more ground based play as opposed to previously just making an additional spore. Meh, I don't think any amount of spore buffs is going to promote ground play over muta play in hots. You'd have to bugg them into oblivion it would be stupid.
Burrow was already relatively cheap before, I don't think a 50/50 decrease is going to promote anything other than cheesy roach burrow allins, not the kind of burrow play they're looking for.
We’re already seeing proxy Stargate openers, and we’ll see these tactics more frequently with this change.
In general, we’re not seeing proxy Oracles ending games, nor giving huge advantages to Protoss players. We feel that proxy strategies or hidden tech strategies are fun to watch, and we don’t think this change will have a negative impact on the game—even if players have to scout for proxy Stargates a bit more carefully.
Uhhh yeah.... I'm pretty sure I've seen a fair amount of games end immediately or at least give P a huge advantage already.
In terms of which is best and worst, spore change is best (of the 3), oracle change is the worst, and burrow change is just kind of stupid but not a big balance issue.
On May 03 2013 12:11 GoodSirTets wrote: It's not that the oracle change in the problem, it's just a poorly designed gimmicky unit in the first place....
What makes the oracle a gimmick? Is the raven also a gimmick? I don't see the difference of those two units.
You don't rely in raven to do damage and its utility gets better as the game progresses. Oracle relies on early harass and pretty useless as a support unit That's why u dun have people getting raven early or Oracle in mid late game
I can't stress enough how powerful revelation is in the lategame. It's basically a scan that follows the enemy units for an entire minute. The oracle is an incredibly powerful lategame support unit. TvP, terran has ~10 scans per minute to track all of the high templars and enemy movements, and protoss needs to use revelation to follow the ghosts and medivacs.
On May 03 2013 12:11 GoodSirTets wrote: It's not that the oracle change in the problem, it's just a poorly designed gimmicky unit in the first place....
What makes the oracle a gimmick? Is the raven also a gimmick? I don't see the difference of those two units.
You don't rely in raven to do damage and its utility gets better as the game progresses. Oracle relies on early harass and pretty useless as a support unit That's why u dun have people getting raven early or Oracle in mid late game
I can't stress enough how powerful revelation is in the lategame. It's basically a scan that follows the enemy units for an entire minute. The oracle is an incredibly powerful lategame support unit. TvP, terran has ~10 scans per minute to track all of the high templars and enemy movements, and protoss needs to use revelation to follow the ghosts and medivacs.
I wish more people would realize this. Oracle speed buff is much more for later game utility, and will only minorly affect early game usage. Oracles are currently to slow to really be used as a later game scouting tool like I think they are intended to be.
On May 03 2013 12:11 GoodSirTets wrote: It's not that the oracle change in the problem, it's just a poorly designed gimmicky unit in the first place....
What makes the oracle a gimmick? Is the raven also a gimmick? I don't see the difference of those two units.
You don't rely in raven to do damage and its utility gets better as the game progresses. Oracle relies on early harass and pretty useless as a support unit That's why u dun have people getting raven early or Oracle in mid late game
I can't stress enough how powerful revelation is in the lategame. It's basically a scan that follows the enemy units for an entire minute. The oracle is an incredibly powerful lategame support unit. TvP, terran has ~10 scans per minute to track all of the high templars and enemy movements, and protoss needs to use revelation to follow the ghosts and medivacs.
I wish more people would realize this. Oracle speed buff is much more for later game utility, and will only minorly affect early game usage. Oracles are currently to slow to really be used as a later game scouting tool like I think they are intended to be.
Oracles were intended as a harassment gimmick, and the "scouting" tools were thrown in to meet the 3 spell quota of all SC2 caster units. The phoenix can kill workers, the voidray can kill buildings, and the observer can scout, so why does the Oracle even need to exist?
also the speed buff is useless for lategame purposes because:
1.) Terrans won't go late-game, because they will pull all their SCV's some time before the 15 minute mark if you haven't already allined or died to drops
2.) If your opponent is hopelessly optimistic and you get Tempests instead of killing him with a 3/3 timing, your oracles are going to die horribly after casting Revelation, regardless of the buff, since Vikings have absurd range and should have attack upgrades.
but yeah, revelation + tempest is pretty crazy....it's the ultimate spoonbreaker
On May 03 2013 12:11 GoodSirTets wrote: It's not that the oracle change in the problem, it's just a poorly designed gimmicky unit in the first place....
What makes the oracle a gimmick? Is the raven also a gimmick? I don't see the difference of those two units.
You don't rely in raven to do damage and its utility gets better as the game progresses. Oracle relies on early harass and pretty useless as a support unit That's why u dun have people getting raven early or Oracle in mid late game
I can't stress enough how powerful revelation is in the lategame. It's basically a scan that follows the enemy units for an entire minute. The oracle is an incredibly powerful lategame support unit. TvP, terran has ~10 scans per minute to track all of the high templars and enemy movements, and protoss needs to use revelation to follow the ghosts and medivacs.
except protoss are acheiving pretty much the same with obs around their base and controlling the terran army movement by doing zealot run by.
They should combine revelation and envision and give it a 3rd spell that gives it more synergy with phoenix and voidrays.
Perhaps something that temporarily shuts down static D like disruption web. Make it cost 50-75 energy. That way, a person could open oracle and transition into phoenix to harass, allowing them to do damage to mineral lines with spores/turrets in them more effectively.
It's so painful seeing protoss harass getting shut down by just one spore and I dont think speed will help much. Acceleration will help but honestly, I think this unit as a lot of potential even though it currently is lacking.
Spore:
The spore change seems kinda bizarre. I wonder what would happen if they gave hydra a separate air attack that was exactly the same as it is now, except +x vs bio. Changes nothing except its ability vs zerg. Maybe overlords or something would be too vulnerable but its worth a shot at least. Or a free speed upgrade. I think the hydra should be the solution not more static D.
Here's how I see the oracle change affecting the game PvT: nothing changes, widow mines still one shot oracles PvP: nothing changes, phoenixes are still faster than orcles PvZ: oracles kill more workers than usual until mutas come out
On May 03 2013 12:31 tomatriedes wrote: Dunno why there's so much crying about oracles when one viking or one turret in mineral line still shuts them down just as hard. The whole unit needs a redesign so it can be more useful outside of early game.
That's pretty much why it's a dumb change for both sides of the matchup
It doesn't matter how fast the oracle goes if it's still shut down by static defense and becomes completely useless outside of the ~7 time window where it can attack while cannons/turrets/spore is not up.
This isn't exciting or strategic for either side. It'll take less than a day on ladder for any player with a brain to add static defense or mines to their build order to ward off proxy oracles. There is no change to counter play to the unit. It's still "maek defense". Oracles are a real expensive unit, it'd be a shame if something happened to them.
Like getting blown up with one mine after it hits maybe one SCV in the mineral line.
And on the other hand forcing players to shoehorn whatever requirements are needed for static defense (4minute ebay) isn't creative or strategic either. there are greedy players being punished, and then there's "there's an oracle in my main and I didn't reactor my rax/built an early engineering bay/went 2 rax before fact so I lose (ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧"
crybabies always point at protoss -_- seriously there is NO oracle play in tournaments, just cause you lost to oracles on ladder doesn't make it broken...
Burrow research cost decreased from 100/100 to 50/50
So let me get this straight, Blizzard. SC2 WoL is in beta. Burrow is at Tier 1 and costs 50/50. You then shove it into Tier 2 and make it cost 100/100. For the next 2+ years.
Then HotS comes out. And now you decide that, hey, maybe the Zerg really should have early, cheap burrow? Even though Zerg Tier 1 hasn't changed much since WoL.
Can you people ever stick to an idea? It's one thing if you realize you made a mistake, but that should have been a few months after the original change, not 2+ years later. It's like you're just throwing a bunch of crap against the wall and seeing what sticks.
On May 03 2013 13:31 FoShao wrote: crybabies always point at protoss -_- seriously there is NO oracle play in tournaments, just cause you lost to oracles on ladder doesn't make it broken...
I like how you've never seen a proxy oracle tourney vod in your life...
On May 03 2013 13:31 FoShao wrote: crybabies always point at protoss -_- seriously there is NO oracle play in tournaments, just cause you lost to oracles on ladder doesn't make it broken...
Clearly haven't watch Parting/HerO/MC playing.
Spore buff changes nothing. It will be good against the first small pack of mutas that come out. Later on not so much against the huge flock of mutas.
But what Muta gives is map control. And that is what spore cannot deterred.
ZvZ will still be Muta vs Muta. Blizzard think Spores can deterred Muta?
So wrong.
Oracle buff. I can't comment much on it since it is mainly a PvT.
Burrow change is now back at Tier 1 50/50. People forget but this Burrow change Tier1 50/50 was already in WOL beta and it was broken.
Burrow change won't make it in. It will be too good.
Those 5:50:6.00 min roach/ling burrow timing attack will be brutal.
I don't understand why people dislike the oracle change. In my opinion, faster oracles are better for the game than slower oracles. Like DK says, faster oracles with higher acceleration would better reward micro. This would make oracles less of an all-or-nothing unit and more of a multipurpose harass unit.
Yes, oracles will likely be too strong with this change. Do you not think that Blizzard will nerf the oracle if it turns out to be imbalanced? IMO this change isn't really about balance, it's about making the oracle a more interesting unit. In the development of interesting, fun units, design should come first. Balance comes second. Would you rather have a boring unit for the rest of Starcraft 2, or an interesting unit that rewards micro that's imbalanced for a few weeks?
Oracle buff is the dumbest change i ever seen in this game since the WoL beta. I can't believe that someone who actually PLAY ( not only watch ) the game can in a health mind suggest this type of change.
I can tell you from experience vs a well defended opponent, early oracle play simply gets shut down. When terran sees two pylons and no tech in the main there can only be two options: DTs or proxy oracles, both of which can be defended by one single turret in each mineral line and a couple of marines. Reapers can scout popular proxy locations and well placed supply depots give terrans time to react to an oracle swooping in. When I face this I'll simply back of and try to use revelation later on. The thing is mid/late game revelation is quite hard because terrans always have vikings vs colossi and their range is long enough to shut down oracles. For those of you who dont know revelation range is actually pretty low, it also automatically gives the 'you are under attack signal' which means vikings and marines will attempt to chase down an oracle. If the terran has enough vikings the oracle just dies in one volley. Also because oracle has a rather low acceleration, stimmed marines can actually catch up to an oracle before it reaches it's top speed, rendering revelation a one time spell only. Right now I only use revelation when I have the terrain advantage where I can run away over cliffs and dead spaces but this, imo really restricts the utility of revelation, which is why I think the oracle buff is pretty interesting.
Overall I love what Blizzard did with HOTS, so I will try not and go overboard here, but the oracle change seems like a bad idea. The issue with protoss is that it was too easy to play in WOL. It is still easier than Terran and Zerg, but with MS core and oracles involved, there is more to "do" in the game, which makes the race a little harder to play. Oracles kill shit really really quickly. They also die quickly. This is a good balance. Making them super easy to use because nothing can hit them is, IMO, the wrong way to go, and going backwards.
Protoss does not have to be easy. It's ok if their super strong harass unit can actually be killed if they don't micro. If you want to make it a tad more forgiving, I can see a small HP or shield boost, but if they are going to be fast enough to easily escape any danger, they need to do less damage.
It's funny, how nearly every post regarding the oracle demands not only the buff not to happen, but rather to check all the other too powerful features of Toss. In order to stop the never ending streak of Protoss tournament wins? Like we had for 3 yrs in WoL???
On May 03 2013 09:15 larse wrote: Well, Terran doesn't worry about Oracle too much.
But Zerg will have a hard time against oracle.
How do you figure? Overlords spot it coming in advance, spores don't require evo and you can move them, queens are already there anyway. Terran will basically have to go 12rax15ebay now, lol, and then you die to any allin.
Or you reaper expand like flash does, and you can get the map control and check for proxies...
On May 03 2013 13:31 FoShao wrote: crybabies always point at protoss -_- seriously there is NO oracle play in tournaments, just cause you lost to oracles on ladder doesn't make it broken...
Burrow change is now back at Tier 1 50/50. People forget but this Burrow change Tier1 50/50 was already in WOL beta and it was broken.
Burrow change won't make it in. It will be too good.
Those 5:50:6.00 min roach/ling burrow timing attack will be brutal.
Blizzard...........................* facepalm*
It WAS broken. Protoss gained a flying unit that can attack ground and transform a nexus into a powerfull cannon, and terran gained reaper and mines, that allow you to scout and defend this kind of thing more easily. And maps have gotten way bigger. Some terran build are gonna disapear because they can't hold that, but maybe not much more.
Things changed, and they want to see if it is doable, so they make a testing map. If indeed it's way to powerfull, they'll change. But Hots is not the same unit balance as WoL beta, so why it should have the same results ?
On May 03 2013 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Burrow change is now back at Tier 1 50/50. People forget but this Burrow change Tier1 50/50 was already in WOL beta and it was broken.
Burrow change won't make it in. It will be too good.
Those 5:50:6.00 min roach/ling burrow timing attack will be brutal.
Blizzard...........................* facepalm*
It wasn't actually burrow that was broken back then. It was roaches being 1 supply, having 2 base armor and regenerating 10 hp per second while burrowed.
On May 03 2013 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Burrow change is now back at Tier 1 50/50. People forget but this Burrow change Tier1 50/50 was already in WOL beta and it was broken.
Burrow change won't make it in. It will be too good.
Those 5:50:6.00 min roach/ling burrow timing attack will be brutal.
Blizzard...........................* facepalm*
It wasn't actually burrow that was broken back then. It was roaches being 1 supply, having 2 base armor and regenerating 10 hp per second while burrowed.
So assuming it goes pretty much the same as the HotS beta: Blizzard has some random ideas, some are liked, some aren't. Blizzard proceeds to do a CTA thingie with exactly the same ideas. Again some are liked, some are considered pretty bad. Blizzard proceeds to ignore all feedback and does it anyway. Now my problem isn't really that Blizzard ignores the community, but isn't it just easier to ignore all those in-between steps where they act just like they are interested in the opinion of the community?
Spore crawler change is imo still an ugly 'solution'. Well I guess maybe zergs can make their base completely muta proof so they can go hydra and move out, but I wouldn't bet too much on it. I don't see oracle changes do too much besides making them stronger in all-in situations. I thought the issue was that they had little roles in the mid/late game, and higher speed won't do much about that. Oracles are just so deadly your base always needs to be 100% oracle proof when they are out.
Main changes I expect with oracle changes is that in PvP oracle vs phoenix openings survive a tad longer. In PvT we might see phoenix + oracle for detection a bit more often, and the most significant change: hallucinated phoenixes will be more often replaced by hallucinated oracles.
Burrow change is more interesting, and especially harder to guess what will happen. I could see burrowed banelings becoming very popular in ZvT (ZvZ possibly too), making early agression very risky. Similar to planetary nexus of toss, but I don't know how happy that makes me, it also forces terrans to go more on hellbat drops if the ground route is suicidal until more detection is available.
To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
Would have been nice for a supported change to toss to spice things up, but at least we get the spore crawler change to discourage massive muta clouds just mashing into each other >< still wish toss could be less death-bally
On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote: To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
That's not my problem with the solution, or well it actually is. This change does pretty much nothing to make it harder to stop, it only makes it more damaging if it wasn't stopped. Considering how damaging it already is when not anticipated I don't think that needs to be worse, I think they should have more of a role if they are anticipated. (Although to be honest the banshee has a slightly similar problem, where they are fairly useless besides early game when they go unscouted).
On May 03 2013 08:24 convention wrote: Why does the oracle change receive so much negative feedback? I don't recall seeing any oracles in the GSL yet, I rarely see them in other tournaments. The speed buff does not help with all-ins (who cares if you saved your two oracles when you have no army and are down 15 workers). It is an incredibly micro-intensive unit. Don't we want those units to be viable?
Because speed isn't the problem with the oracle. When used in PvT it's pretty much an all or nothing unit. Generally it either catches you off-guard and does game ending damage or you scout it and prepare and it does nothing. The problem with the oracle is that it doesn't have a solid mid-game transition to justify spending money on a stargate unless you're continuing down that tech path or using it with your all-in.
exactly this. if you could use them later (ie a different spell than envision, the unit would be much better. now they seem like either you do a ton of damage or none.
also, I don't think the spore buff is going to do what they think it will do. I think it's going to lead to more +1/+1 ling play which is probably more volatile than muta play.
I suspect, on the burrow change, that blizzard has this crazy idea that zergs will use burrow like protoss uses blink and that it will be exciting. I don't think it's going to happen. I think we're going to see a lot more dumb burrow blocks and maybe some more burrowed banelings in zvz
On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote: To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
That's not my problem with the solution, or well it actually is. This change does pretty much nothing to make it harder to stop, it only makes it more damaging if it wasn't stopped. Considering how damaging it already is when not anticipated I don't think that needs to be worse, I think they should have more of a role if they are anticipated. (Although to be honest the banshee has a slightly similar problem, where they are fairly useless besides early game when they go unscouted).
Exactly ...
Right now people are only building ONE Oracle, but what happens when you wait for 2-3 or until the one has more energy and you send some hallucinated ones as well?
There is a great quote from Babylon 5 and it goes roughly like this: "When you are trying to make a point, you should make it in a way which no one misses" ... i.e. send your ENTIRE fleet of ships on a mission to overwhelm the enemy. Sending just one Oracle seems to be rather weak to "make a point" and getting more than one would seem like a good idea. It doesnt really cost that much and you can play defensive easily by relying more on cannons (which are useful against harrassment anyways) to free up your gas for the Oracles.
Just get 1 Gateway (or whatever minimum amount for a wall-in) and then straight to Stargate and several Oracles while using the minerals from the Gateways you didnt build for additional cannons (you really need them anyways as drop-defense/deter mechanism). With several Oracles you might even be able to fight a bunch of Marines effectively (maybe with some hallucinated Oracles as support since Terrans are unlikely to have the energy for (many) scans early in the game OR you can attack several places at the same time to pull the enemy forces apart.
The bottom line is that the Oracle doesnt really need a buff to its speed.
On May 03 2013 15:48 leova wrote: spore buff is still stupid, i was fine with the first damage buff...but now another?
the thing is, MUTA vs MUTA WILL HAPPEN...it just will, making spore's annihilate Muta's is just silly.
burrow cost buff is great, its way underused except for infestors and roach regens
oracle change is INCREDIBLY RIDICULOUSLY NAIVE. why would you give a unit that absolutely demolishes workers EVEN MORE SPEED?
these changes make me sad
Muta vs Muta happens out on the map and the Spore Crawler will defend the bases. The only point is to allow a "loser" to catch his breath and gather more Mutas while hiding in his base, but since he is already losing it wont "improve" the game. A decently large clump of Mutalisks will still kill Spore Crawlers with one or two hits, but a small one will be decimated ... so the end result will be people waiting for CRITICAL NUMBERs of Mutalisks before attacking a base ... which is boring.
People should USE burrow and then they "deserve" a cost reduction maybe, but not like this. SC2 is far too fast to use burrow for micro and if people cant be bothered to spend 100/100 on one research then they dont deserve to get a discount.
I still think Blizz is throwing this out as a red herring just to distract people while they let the meta develop for HotS. All in all, the patch won't change much.
The reason why people, and especially T players, are worried about buffing the oracle isn't because it's too strong when microed. It's more that it's disliked already because it's seen as a gimmick unit. Everyone has had games where you guess that particular 2 gas opener wrong and an oracle flies into your mineral line and begins a slow death animation. This isn't even a problem with the oracle, it's more an issue about Protoss being a guess-my-build race, at the moment.
As we saw with Polt at Dreamhack, you can scout the proxy oracle but do it too late to save the game. With the speed boost you can arrive at the same time as now also if you just hide the stargate somewhere on the map. This makes it more difficult to scout this particular all-in, which is what people already have issues with.
people hating on the burrow buff, dont you think if you put something like this in a beta (its a beta guys come on) they will use it more? if they decide to put it back, they will still have the exposure of the base ability and can judge the value. For me this happened a few times in the beta map tests and since using the ideas they didnt put through i havent gone back
oracle change you know could need the buff as the queen and a spore in zvz is enough. For some reason i dont worry at all if i see an oracle
spore damage. it will stop only small muta balls but still most people only really attack when their ball instas a spore anyway so that 1 shot its going to get off . . . hmmm, it just stops you from attacking sooner so the death ball incoming with just flying around the middle of the map. I suppose it would give time to add tech into other units, hmm dont really know with this but its a buff so im happy
Someone suggested that they'd better add the Scourage to the game, it won't happen till LotV I guess.
Also I suppose they gonna add Reaver and Scout to Protoss, Vessel and Aspid to Terran and something + Scourage to Zerg, so we will have our StarCraft 2 BroodWar: The Legacy of Void with a new engine inside :/
Well, maybe it would be entertaining and interesting to watch due to a big variaty of strats and difference between playstyles...
P.S Spore buff will affect only early phases of ZvZ mutaplay, in addition they had to provide some splash damage against only BIO units, kinda 15+ 30+ splash vs. Bilogical
Also would be interesting to decrease the cost of Oracle, it is still too expensive, and probably nerf active ability damage.
No ideas about burrow, not sure that the most of zergs will realise the possible usage of burrow :D
On May 03 2013 15:50 Rabiator wrote: People should USE burrow and then they "deserve" a cost reduction maybe, but not like this. SC2 is far too fast to use burrow for micro and if people cant be bothered to spend 100/100 on one research then they dont deserve to get a discount.
I'm not sure to understand your logic. So for you, if something is hard to use and not used enough you shouldn't buff it ? O_o I propose we buff mutas, medivacs and collosus, because people use them, hence deserve to get them buffed.
I kind of like the spore buff, because muta vs muta is kind of boring, but at the same time I don't really like that defending muta harass become passive... It sounds like easy mode...
The burrow upgrade is scary... Having 7 roaches that knock at your door with burrow won't be something pleasant... 1 - Bust, 2 - Regen, 3 - Finish ^_^ Better scout that early ! But I like it, as long as it doesn't become too powerful. Making new strategies viable is good.
Then, the Oracle buff is kind of meh... I don't understand. They're already fast as hell... TvP will become a nightmare...
On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote: To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically.
On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote: To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically.
It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive.
What i really find interesting is that david kim says static defense helps against oracles. If i rely on a tower in the middle of the mineral line, and an oracle comes in, and it is put on hold position right outside of the turret´s range, it kills 8 workers in 3 seconds, gets away and repeats as soon as it has energy.
I think, loosing 8 workers in 3 seconds with an existing static defense (4 minute ebay yeah!) at the 5:30 minute mark is Game deciding.
There is exactly no micro involved from the scv frying oracle, so a speed or acceleration buff will only result into 3 minute 30 ebay, but still useless.
If anything, oracle should be nerfed severely, by removing the detection ability. The fact that toss can get detection on 3 different independent tech trees is really strong in early game, as they are immune against any stealth unit play no matter what techtree they choose.
the next thing that should be adressed by david kim is the blink-allin from 3 gates with msc vision. I see it work, even if scouted, at highest lvls of play (gstl, gsl korea, gsl eu).
Blink research is way to early available, even if scoutet and ideally prepared (highground bunkers, siegetank production), terrans cannot hold against in most cases, and if they dont die to it instantly, the protoss can contain long enough to go macro mode.
Twighlight council should be somehow delayed (buidlingtime) or blink research time should be longer than it is.
Whenever i see the map Akilon waste, and a high lvl pvt, standing 1-1 in maps, the toss will blinkstalker himself to victory. It really hurts to see this everytime.
On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote: To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically.
It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive.
The speed buff isn't particular scary. The speed buff combined with the +1 acceleration buff at the same time is something I'd be very cautious to implement. Also I hope to god they don't do anything until this GSL is over, because that would be just annoying and terrible.
I didn't play the map, but I know one thing for sure:
Why buff the Spore when if you buff Queen's AA spines vs Bio it would've been much better choice.. Mutas are still waay faster than Queens, but they'll certainly guard bases/other ground armies better vs Mutas than Spores do..
Also - there are quite a bit more of changes/concerns required rather than giving random buffs to units to plainfully "see how it goes" IMO
Terrible changes are David Kim and Co going to fuck it up again like they did with WoL, Its looking like they are heading in the same direction with baffling tweaks instead of addressing core game units
On May 03 2013 16:35 Holo82 wrote: What i really find interesting is that david kim says static defense helps against oracles. If i rely on a tower in the middle of the mineral line, and an oracle comes in, and it is put on hold position right outside of the turret´s range, it kills 8 workers in 3 seconds, gets away and repeats as soon as it has energy.
I think, loosing 8 workers in 3 seconds with an existing static defense (4 minute ebay yeah!) at the 5:30 minute mark is Game deciding.
There is exactly no micro involved from the scv frying oracle, so a speed or acceleration buff will only result into 3 minute 30 ebay, but still useless.
If anything, oracle should be nerfed severely, by removing the detection ability. The fact that toss can get detection on 3 different independent tech trees is really strong in early game, as they are immune against any stealth unit play no matter what techtree they choose.
the next thing that should be adressed by david kim is the blink-allin from 3 gates with msc vision. I see it work, even if scouted, at highest lvls of play (gstl, gsl korea, gsl eu).
Blink research is way to early available, even if scoutet and ideally prepared (highground bunkers, siegetank production), terrans cannot hold against in most cases, and if they dont die to it instantly, the protoss can contain long enough to go macro mode.
Twighlight council should be somehow delayed (buidlingtime) or blink research time should be longer than it is.
Whenever i see the map Akilon waste, and a high lvl pvt, standing 1vs1, the toss will blinkstalker himself to victory. It really hurts to see this everytime.
If you had to get your 4 minute ebay, the protoss invested so much into those oracles. You should just go kill him if he can only pick off 8 workers and lost all of his energy. Oh, and the oracle range is smaller than a banshee range (and banshees have better dps per cost!). If you can handle banshees in TvT, oracles shouldn't be an issue. Somehow the speed increase makes the proxy (hence the 4 minute ebay) starport get the oracle to your base in 30 less seconds? I don't know, something sounds off there.
I'm struggling to figure out what the third tech tree for detection is with protoss. There is now the oracle, and there is the observer. What is the third (I hope you aren't counted photon cannon)? If you remove revelation, than protoss have to go robo every single game again.
I've also seen two racks reaper work in the GSL, guess we should remove that too. Protoss shouldn't have at least one viable early game all-in to punish greedy terrans that didn't scout (hint: every time that build is scouted in time in the GSL, it's been stopped).
On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote: To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically.
It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive.
The speed buff isn't particular scary. The speed buff combined with the +1 acceleration buff at the same time is something I'd be very cautious to implement. Also I hope to god they don't do anything until this GSL is over, because that would be just annoying and terrible.
The +1 acceleration buff means that they will stop at the same place they would have previously, afterall the oracle is going faster. If you don't buff the acceleration with the speed, you will see a turret and not be able to stop in time. The unit would feel clunky, it would be as if playing with lag.
On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote: Fuck they went through with the oracle change
It's called a beta test for a reason.
To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through
I'd even say 99.9% =)
Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament.
creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver)
On May 03 2013 16:41 Topdoller wrote: Terrible changes are David Kim and Co going to fuck it up again like they did with WoL, Its looking like they are heading in the same direction with baffling tweaks instead of addressing core game units
Obviously they "have to" do new stuff, because the old stuff was balanced, right? Thus they cant remove Mutalisk regeneration after they added it with HotS and it is part of the "core" of the unit. Tweaking it doesnt make sense either because it will be the same as removing it.
They want to see more Oracles in games and the only way for them to push it is buffing the unit in question. The sense or no-sense of such an action or any consequences dont bother them.
On May 03 2013 15:19 EleanorRIgby wrote: sad attempt to get people to use burrow more, 50/50 is wayyy too low for such a utility.
Exactly !!!!
On May 03 2013 16:01 MagnuMizer wrote: Acceleration buff for the Oracle is a good move!! Thanks blizz, cant wait to test this out! =)
And WHY is it a good move?`Because you are too slow to use the old Oracle and more speed will give you more control? That is the opposite of how it works for speed usually.
On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote: Fuck they went through with the oracle change
It's called a beta test for a reason.
To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through
I'd even say 99.9% =)
Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament.
creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver)
Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback.
On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote: To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically.
It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive.
The speed buff isn't particular scary. The speed buff combined with the +1 acceleration buff at the same time is something I'd be very cautious to implement. Also I hope to god they don't do anything until this GSL is over, because that would be just annoying and terrible.
The +1 acceleration buff means that they will stop at the same place they would have previously, afterall the oracle is going faster. If you don't buff the acceleration with the speed, you will see a turret and not be able to stop in time. The unit would feel clunky, it would be as if playing with lag.
I'm not sure, and someone technical might need to be summoned, but does acceleration actually affect stop command? If it doesn't then it's more that Oracles wouldn't be able to escape from static defenses faster after entering the range. Again, speed and acceleration are completely different, you don't need to nerf/ buff both at the same time. Mutas got a speed buff but not acceleration I believe. If they going for the micro route, they should do acceleration, though the correct number is unknown.
On May 03 2013 16:51 Rabiator wrote: And WHY is it a good move?`Because you are too slow to use the old Oracle and more speed will give you more control? That is the opposite of how it works for speed usually.
On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote: Fuck they went through with the oracle change
It's called a beta test for a reason.
To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through
I'd even say 99.9% =)
Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament.
creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver)
Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback.
maybe because it was already a beta? I mean, they are not going to make a betatest to look whether they implement changes to a beta... They just nerf the stuff back if it doesn't work.
On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote: To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically.
It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive.
The speed buff isn't particular scary. The speed buff combined with the +1 acceleration buff at the same time is something I'd be very cautious to implement. Also I hope to god they don't do anything until this GSL is over, because that would be just annoying and terrible.
The +1 acceleration buff means that they will stop at the same place they would have previously, afterall the oracle is going faster. If you don't buff the acceleration with the speed, you will see a turret and not be able to stop in time. The unit would feel clunky, it would be as if playing with lag.
I'm not sure, and someone technical might need to be summoned, but does acceleration actually affect stop command? If it doesn't then it's more that Oracles wouldn't be able to escape from static defenses faster after entering the range. Again, speed and acceleration are completely different, you don't need to nerf/ buff both at the same time. Mutas got a speed buff but not acceleration I believe. If they going for the micro route, they should do acceleration, though the correct number is unknown.
Ever use the original mamship? The one with almost 0 acceleration and super low movement speed? It took 3 seconds for it to cast vortex because it had to stop first. They then buffed the acceleration and the cast time was significantly reduced. There was a post on how good players would have the mamaship on a patrol command so that it didn't need to start from zero, but the huge issue was it was impossible to cast a vortex before the huge acceleration buff.
Cannon should receive same buff what spore clawlers, toss has same sitution with mass muta, no counter unless you make ton of phoenixes then you're in "bad spot " cause zerg will remax on ultras : )
On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote: To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically.
It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive.
The speed buff isn't particular scary. The speed buff combined with the +1 acceleration buff at the same time is something I'd be very cautious to implement. Also I hope to god they don't do anything until this GSL is over, because that would be just annoying and terrible.
The +1 acceleration buff means that they will stop at the same place they would have previously, afterall the oracle is going faster. If you don't buff the acceleration with the speed, you will see a turret and not be able to stop in time. The unit would feel clunky, it would be as if playing with lag.
I'm not sure, and someone technical might need to be summoned, but does acceleration actually affect stop command? If it doesn't then it's more that Oracles wouldn't be able to escape from static defenses faster after entering the range. Again, speed and acceleration are completely different, you don't need to nerf/ buff both at the same time. Mutas got a speed buff but not acceleration I believe. If they going for the micro route, they should do acceleration, though the correct number is unknown.
Ever use the original mamship? The one with almost 0 acceleration and super low movement speed? It took 3 seconds for it to cast vortex because it had to stop first. They then buffed the acceleration and the cast time was significantly reduced. There was a post on how good players would have the mamaship on a patrol command so that it didn't need to start from zero, but the huge issue was it was impossible to cast a vortex before the huge acceleration buff.
yeah, though he is right technically. Acceleration =/= Decceleration in the editor. You can change the one without changing the other. But I think blizzard just keeps those values the same and doesn't even mention the decceleration changes when they change acceleration.
I think people are overreacting about the oracle changes. .125 movespeed is pretty small and 1 acceleration isn't much either. i don't see this breaking the game or any matchups
On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote: Fuck they went through with the oracle change
It's called a beta test for a reason.
To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through
I'd even say 99.9% =)
Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament.
creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver)
Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback.
maybe because it was already a beta? I mean, they are not going to make a betatest to look whether they implement changes to a beta... They just nerf the stuff back if it doesn't work.
Which would be fine for me, if they wouldn't do the CTA stuff in the first place. They propose changes, ask for feedback, and proceed to ignore it. Fine for me if they think their opinion is more accurate, but then just skip the feedback step completely.
@Lee, the problem isn't it breaking matchups, it is that it won't fix the problem.
On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote: To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically.
It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive.
The speed buff isn't particular scary. The speed buff combined with the +1 acceleration buff at the same time is something I'd be very cautious to implement. Also I hope to god they don't do anything until this GSL is over, because that would be just annoying and terrible.
The +1 acceleration buff means that they will stop at the same place they would have previously, afterall the oracle is going faster. If you don't buff the acceleration with the speed, you will see a turret and not be able to stop in time. The unit would feel clunky, it would be as if playing with lag.
I'm not sure, and someone technical might need to be summoned, but does acceleration actually affect stop command? If it doesn't then it's more that Oracles wouldn't be able to escape from static defenses faster after entering the range. Again, speed and acceleration are completely different, you don't need to nerf/ buff both at the same time. Mutas got a speed buff but not acceleration I believe. If they going for the micro route, they should do acceleration, though the correct number is unknown.
Ever use the original mamship? The one with almost 0 acceleration and super low movement speed? It took 3 seconds for it to cast vortex because it had to stop first. They then buffed the acceleration and the cast time was significantly reduced. There was a post on how good players would have the mamaship on a patrol command so that it didn't need to start from zero, but the huge issue was it was impossible to cast a vortex before the huge acceleration buff.
yeah, though he is right technically. Acceleration =/= Decceleration in the editor. You can change the one without changing the other. But I think blizzard just keeps those values the same and doesn't even mention the decceleration changes when they change acceleration.
Does it affect Stop Command/Hold Position? ie. Do those happen instantly and is the same for all units
On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote: Fuck they went through with the oracle change
It's called a beta test for a reason.
To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through
I'd even say 99.9% =)
Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament.
creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver)
Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback.
maybe because it was already a beta? I mean, they are not going to make a betatest to look whether they implement changes to a beta... They just nerf the stuff back if it doesn't work.
Which would be fine for me, if they wouldn't do the CTA stuff in the first place. They propose changes, ask for feedback, and proceed to ignore it. Fine for me if they think their opinion is more accurate, but then just skip the feedback step completely.
Maybe they ignored most of it for a similar reason they should be ignoring most of this thread. The standard complaints are about how ebays now need to be 30 seconds earlier for proxy oracles. The speed buff (just like blizzard said and very few people on these forums are listening to) does not help proxy stargates. If I'm all-in, I could care less if I saved my two oracles if I didn't kill the terran. I mean, what are two oracles going to do for me when I'm down a base and 20 workers? What the speed buff (and you HAVE to buff acceleration if you buff speed or the unit is unresponsive) actually does, is it allows for oracles to be kept alive a little better. That only helps if I want to harass over a long period of time, which currently no one is using oracles for. And one reason for not using them: they are hard to keep alive.
On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote: To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically.
It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive.
The speed buff isn't particular scary. The speed buff combined with the +1 acceleration buff at the same time is something I'd be very cautious to implement. Also I hope to god they don't do anything until this GSL is over, because that would be just annoying and terrible.
The +1 acceleration buff means that they will stop at the same place they would have previously, afterall the oracle is going faster. If you don't buff the acceleration with the speed, you will see a turret and not be able to stop in time. The unit would feel clunky, it would be as if playing with lag.
I'm not sure, and someone technical might need to be summoned, but does acceleration actually affect stop command? If it doesn't then it's more that Oracles wouldn't be able to escape from static defenses faster after entering the range. Again, speed and acceleration are completely different, you don't need to nerf/ buff both at the same time. Mutas got a speed buff but not acceleration I believe. If they going for the micro route, they should do acceleration, though the correct number is unknown.
Ever use the original mamship? The one with almost 0 acceleration and super low movement speed? It took 3 seconds for it to cast vortex because it had to stop first. They then buffed the acceleration and the cast time was significantly reduced. There was a post on how good players would have the mamaship on a patrol command so that it didn't need to start from zero, but the huge issue was it was impossible to cast a vortex before the huge acceleration buff.
yeah, though he is right technically. Acceleration =/= Decceleration in the editor. You can change the one without changing the other. But I think blizzard just keeps those values the same and doesn't even mention the decceleration changes when they change acceleration.
Does it affect Stop Command/Hold Position? ie. Do those happen instantly and is the same for all units
If you hit stop or hold position, the unit decelerates to zero. It doesn't set the speed to zero, the unit has to slow down first. Which is why mutas can pseudo-move and shoot.
Acceleration for the Oracle is really great news, speed i care less about, but that is a very slight speed increase... i thought the acceleration was pretty shitty before, i'm glad they recognized that and changed it...
i cant believe all you idiots talking shit saying david kim ruined the game when you havent even given it a chance... i think it sounds like some very logical changes and i like all of them (couldnt care less about spore cos i'm P)
On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote: Fuck they went through with the oracle change
It's called a beta test for a reason.
To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through
I'd even say 99.9% =)
Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament.
creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver)
Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback.
maybe because it was already a beta? I mean, they are not going to make a betatest to look whether they implement changes to a beta... They just nerf the stuff back if it doesn't work.
Which would be fine for me, if they wouldn't do the CTA stuff in the first place. They propose changes, ask for feedback, and proceed to ignore it. Fine for me if they think their opinion is more accurate, but then just skip the feedback step completely.
Maybe the feedback they want to see is : "that is utterly broken, this rush is unstoppable" kind of thing, that they didn't thought about, and not really vage comments on how it will change the metagame.
50/50 for burrow... I don't like that it is now no longer a choice to get it. It's such a useful upgrade, so stupid that it's nearly free now. And the oracle speed increase means that oracles will own marines every day of the week. I guess fast engineering bay will be the norm in TvP now :-x. The worst thing is they always go through with these beta changes 100%.
On May 03 2013 17:20 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: 50/50 for burrow... I don't like that it is now no longer a choice to get it. It's such a useful upgrade, so stupid that it's nearly free now. And the oracle speed increase means that oracles will own marines every day of the week. I guess fast engineering bay will be the norm in TvP now :-x. The worst thing is they always go through with these beta changes 100%.
No, oracles high dps to light units means the oracles own marines. The speed buff just means if the oracles sees 30 marines with stim moving across the map, you don't instantly lose your 150/150 investment.
On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote: Fuck they went through with the oracle change
It's called a beta test for a reason.
To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through
I'd even say 99.9% =)
Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament.
creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver)
Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback.
maybe because it was already a beta? I mean, they are not going to make a betatest to look whether they implement changes to a beta... They just nerf the stuff back if it doesn't work.
Which would be fine for me, if they wouldn't do the CTA stuff in the first place. They propose changes, ask for feedback, and proceed to ignore it. Fine for me if they think their opinion is more accurate, but then just skip the feedback step completely.
Maybe they ignored most of it for a similar reason they should be ignoring most of this thread. The standard complaints are about how ebays now need to be 30 seconds earlier for proxy oracles. The speed buff (just like blizzard said and very few people on these forums are listening to) does not help proxy stargates. If I'm all-in, I could care less if I saved my two oracles if I didn't kill the terran. I mean, what are two oracles going to do for me when I'm down a base and 20 workers? What the speed buff (and you HAVE to buff acceleration if you buff speed or the unit is unresponsive) actually does, is it allows for oracles to be kept alive a little better. That only helps if I want to harass over a long period of time, which currently no one is using oracles for. And one reason for not using them: they are hard to keep alive.
That won't be the case.
All-ins will become stronger, simply because it is easier to kill SCVs that run, it is easier to kill marines that try to scramble to defend, etc. (That it hits a few seconds faster isn't that significant). But if they are anticipated they still will be countered.
Then mid game really fun you can keep them alive longer. Only problem that they won't do anything. You can also keep them alive right now by keeping them in the back of your base. You can then even use them to counter drops/runbys. Because higher speed won't increase their use on the offensive. If my opponent has oracles every single mineral line i have will be 100% oracle proof, they're are just too dangerous to ignore. So even if you give them 10 speed, they still won't do damage in a mineral line since their has to be enough defense to kill them anyway.
@kubiks, even the most horrible change proposed by them since the beta has been patched in. Again fine for me if they don't care about feedback, but then don't ask for it.
finally they try to give zerg a possibility to put on early game pressure vs nexus cannon, free siege mode, mines and "scouts everything" reaper. really like it.
just dont get why they dont buff hydra anti air and finally give zerg the needed AA in ALL MUs not only ZvZ.
oracle changes are nice but there might be problems with 1 base oracles especially in PvT and PvP. we will see.
On May 03 2013 17:06 LeeDawg wrote: I think people are overreacting about the oracle changes. .125 movespeed is pretty small and 1 acceleration isn't much either. i don't see this breaking the game or any matchups
Isn't it very similar or same to the speed buff that mutas got?
On May 03 2013 08:18 TheDwf wrote: The proposed Oracle changes are a horrible idea. Don't know for ZvP and PvP but the last thing TvP needs is more lottery.
Terran already has the best scouting options in game...
lolilol terran has the worst scout in the game, i've just rectified that for you
once protoss has his stalker out, terran can do 0 scout until 10 mn
So Blizzard. If you want to have Burrow used you have to think of which units that can benefit from it. Obviously theres only 2 units that can really benefit from it. Roach and Infestor. The problems: Roach: The Roach itself is really weak even with Burrow. But if it gets burrow health regen or movement from Tunneling claws from start it would actually be useful. Then you could possible see some zergs win with some really good burrow micro.
Infestor: Infestor has become very weak with countless of nerfs and are totally not worth the 100/150 cost. But if the cost gets decreased to like 50/75 it would actually become a good haras unit untill enemy gets lots of detection.
(hint: every time that build is scouted in time in the GSL, it's been stopped).
What i have been seeing was more like:
yeah . proxy stargate scouted.probe is killed, pylon is getting chipped away by reaper, while stargate is under construction.
toss says screw this, i dont even cancel it, throw down 3 more gates. not a single oracle beeing produced, as pylon dies. But Protoss is cool to trick terran by sending stalker + 2nd probe to stargate, warp another pylon Terran says : omg need turrets + wm. toss wins with frontal delayed 4 gate because marines + mines are at the back waiting for oracle that was never been built.
The major problem of oracle is that it gives the toss detection, so he doesnt need a robo. the toss opponent has generally no idea which of all the possible allins he will face. The versatility of toss openers is way to big, and they are shady / not easy to scout/ and this is why toss are so strong in all matchups.
To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through
I'd even say 99.9% =)
Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament.
creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver)
Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback.
maybe because it was already a beta? I mean, they are not going to make a betatest to look whether they implement changes to a beta... They just nerf the stuff back if it doesn't work.
Which would be fine for me, if they wouldn't do the CTA stuff in the first place. They propose changes, ask for feedback, and proceed to ignore it. Fine for me if they think their opinion is more accurate, but then just skip the feedback step completely.
Maybe they ignored most of it for a similar reason they should be ignoring most of this thread. The standard complaints are about how ebays now need to be 30 seconds earlier for proxy oracles. The speed buff (just like blizzard said and very few people on these forums are listening to) does not help proxy stargates. If I'm all-in, I could care less if I saved my two oracles if I didn't kill the terran. I mean, what are two oracles going to do for me when I'm down a base and 20 workers? What the speed buff (and you HAVE to buff acceleration if you buff speed or the unit is unresponsive) actually does, is it allows for oracles to be kept alive a little better. That only helps if I want to harass over a long period of time, which currently no one is using oracles for. And one reason for not using them: they are hard to keep alive.
That won't be the case.
All-ins will become stronger, simply because it is easier to kill SCVs that run, it is easier to kill marines that try to scramble to defend, etc. (That it hits a few seconds faster isn't that significant). But if they are anticipated they still will be countered.
Then mid game really fun you can keep them alive longer. Truly fascinating, minus that they won't do anything. You can also keep them alive right now by keeping them in the back of your base. You can then even use them to counter drops/runbys. Because higher speed won't increase their use on the offensive. If my opponent has oracles every single mineral line i have will be 100% oracle proof, their are just too dangerous to ignore. So even if you give them 10 speed, they still won't do damage in a mineral line since their has to be enough defense to kill them anyway.
@kubiks, even the most horrible change proposed by them since the beta has been patched in. Again fine for me if they don't care about feedback, but then don't ask for it.
Yes, they can't harass anymore, but that is what revelation is for. That's what the speed buff helps, not harassing but using revelation. I use oracles like I use to DTs. Lategame I'll get a 4-5 oracles out and surprise my opponent with them. I'll get a few worker kills before they invest into static defense on all of their bases. But then I just use the oracles to keep tabs on the enemy using revelation. With the current speed and acceleration, it is really hard to get the revelation off without most likely losing the oracle, which is probably why pros haven't used the oracle much for revelation.
On May 03 2013 17:20 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: 50/50 for burrow... I don't like that it is now no longer a choice to get it. It's such a useful upgrade, so stupid that it's nearly free now. And the oracle speed increase means that oracles will own marines every day of the week. I guess fast engineering bay will be the norm in TvP now :-x. The worst thing is they always go through with these beta changes 100%.
No, oracles high dps to light units means the oracles own marines. The speed buff just means if the oracles sees 30 marines with stim moving across the map, you don't instantly lose your 150/150 investment.
Yes but now you can utilise that high dps to light units while kiting that much better due to the acceleration and speed, making normal unupgraded marines nearly useless as an early game defense.
On May 03 2013 17:20 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: 50/50 for burrow... I don't like that it is now no longer a choice to get it. It's such a useful upgrade, so stupid that it's nearly free now. And the oracle speed increase means that oracles will own marines every day of the week. I guess fast engineering bay will be the norm in TvP now :-x. The worst thing is they always go through with these beta changes 100%.
Warpgate is 50/50, 100/100 for stim, siege mode was 100/100 before they removed it, zergling speed is 100/100... All of them are incredibly strong upgrades, on the flip side there are things like bunker cargo, hydralisks range+1 or the interceptor launch upgrade which are not really important and often times more expensive. Upgrade costs are not bound to how useful they are. I can totally understand that blizzard wants Protoss to have their own production dynamic - but needs to delay it a little - Terran bio tech to be viable - but needs to balance them around a powerful upgrade instead of 2rax stim marine - or Zerg to be able to burrow most of their units - but can't let them do it from the start.
On May 03 2013 08:18 TheDwf wrote: The proposed Oracle changes are a horrible idea. Don't know for ZvP and PvP but the last thing TvP needs is more lottery.
Terran already has the best scouting options in game...
lolilol terran has the worst scout in the game, i've just rectified that for you
once protoss has his stalker out, terran can do 0 scout until 10 mn
Reapers are faster than Stalkers, and you can also scan...
But I agree that the Oracle is a badly designed unit.
Scan doesn't help against scouting oracle opening, it is a waste of minerals, you would have been way better of just getting mule and using those minerals on turrets. And that is the highly unlikely case you actually scan the stargate. And on most maps the toss should feel horrible if he allows a reaper to scout when stalkers + MsC are out.
On May 03 2013 17:20 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: 50/50 for burrow... I don't like that it is now no longer a choice to get it. It's such a useful upgrade, so stupid that it's nearly free now. And the oracle speed increase means that oracles will own marines every day of the week. I guess fast engineering bay will be the norm in TvP now :-x. The worst thing is they always go through with these beta changes 100%.
No, oracles high dps to light units means the oracles own marines. The speed buff just means if the oracles sees 30 marines with stim moving across the map, you don't instantly lose your 150/150 investment.
Yes but now you can utilise that high dps to light units while kiting that much better due to the acceleration and speed, making normal unupgraded marines nearly useless as an early game defense.
You cannot kite marines with Oracle lol, even if the speed change goes through
On May 03 2013 17:20 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: 50/50 for burrow... I don't like that it is now no longer a choice to get it. It's such a useful upgrade, so stupid that it's nearly free now. And the oracle speed increase means that oracles will own marines every day of the week. I guess fast engineering bay will be the norm in TvP now :-x. The worst thing is they always go through with these beta changes 100%.
No, oracles high dps to light units means the oracles own marines. The speed buff just means if the oracles sees 30 marines with stim moving across the map, you don't instantly lose your 150/150 investment.
Yes but now you can utilise that high dps to light units while kiting that much better due to the acceleration and speed, making normal unupgraded marines nearly useless as an early game defense.
You can't kite marines, the oracle range is smaller than the marines range.
On May 03 2013 17:06 LeeDawg wrote: I think people are overreacting about the oracle changes. .125 movespeed is pretty small and 1 acceleration isn't much either. i don't see this breaking the game or any matchups
Isn't it very similar or same to the speed buff that mutas got?
And honestly the mutas don't seems that faster (actually if I weren't tell I wouldn't have noticed the difference)
On May 03 2013 17:26 Sated wrote: Burrow all-ins are already super strong vs. Gateway expands in PvZ.
Is it true ? Maybe, but I didn't saw any burrow all-in in pro game for a long time (maybe I don't watch enough pro games :p)
On May 03 2013 08:18 TheDwf wrote: The proposed Oracle changes are a horrible idea. Don't know for ZvP and PvP but the last thing TvP needs is more lottery.
Terran already has the best scouting options in game...
lolilol terran has the worst scout in the game, i've just rectified that for you
once protoss has his stalker out, terran can do 0 scout until 10 mn
Reapers are faster than Stalkers, and you can also scan...
But I agree that the Oracle is a badly designed unit.
a scan unless you are lucky will not reveal what you want to see, best case scenario it only reveals partially what your opponents has
and yeah the reaper is faster but will be caught after some time, the guy wont stop at just 1 stalker and he also has mothership core
i agree the reaper is terrans only way to scout early, but it can get shut down so easily by a decent protoss player that knows how to positions his units, that meh, useless
i feel like tvp on hots only dependss on pure luck, either you counter blindly what the guy does and you're fine or you don't and you're dead protoss opens double gaz behind he can anything like hide blink highground with mothership, hide dt, proxy robo prism 4g, proxy robo immortal bust, proxy stargate, proxy robo warprism and dt, etc...
too much builds you have to be able to react to, what does toss have to react to early vs terran that would kill them if they dont scout it? except mine and hellbats drops, nothing, and even then a photon in each mineral line and they're fine
So i assume they stopped taking feedback from pro players then.
What annoys me is their fascination with early game aggression. To have some is good, to have tons of options for all 3 races just makes the game a gamble cluster fuck.
EDIT: also, is buffing speed all Blizzard can think about? Reaper, muta, oracle, phoenix.... Juts came up with something more interesting for creating skill caps FFS...
On May 03 2013 08:18 TheDwf wrote: The proposed Oracle changes are a horrible idea. Don't know for ZvP and PvP but the last thing TvP needs is more lottery.
Terran already has the best scouting options in game...
In fact Terran has the worst scouting options in the game.
On May 03 2013 08:18 TheDwf wrote: The proposed Oracle changes are a horrible idea. Don't know for ZvP and PvP but the last thing TvP needs is more lottery.
Terran already has the best scouting options in game...
lolilol terran has the worst scout in the game, i've just rectified that for you
once protoss has his stalker out, terran can do 0 scout until 10 mn
Reapers are faster than Stalkers, and you can also scan...
But I agree that the Oracle is a badly designed unit.
a scan unless you are lucky will not reveal what you want to see, best case scenario it only reveals partially what your opponents has
and yeah the reaper is faster but will be caught after some time, the guy wont stop at just 1 stalker and he also has mothership core
i agree the reaper is terrans only way to scout early, but it can get shut down so easily by a decent protoss player that knows how to positions his units, that meh, useless
i feel like tvp on hots only dependss on pure luck, either you counter blindly what the guy does and you're fine or you don't and you're dead protoss opens double gaz behind he can anything like hide blink highground with mothership, hide dt, proxy robo prism 4g, proxy robo immortal bust, proxy stargate, proxy robo warprism and dt, etc...
too much builds you have to be able to react to, what does toss have to react to early vs terran that would kill them if they dont scout it? except mine and hellbats drops, nothing, and even then a photon in each mineral line and they're fine
Best case scenario, the scan sees everything, and it happens often !
Some pro players still get scouted by the reaper, so I don't think it never works on ladder.
I agree you don't always want to make reapers or waste a scan early, but you can also pressure a bit or hide an scv and check if he has a natural at some point.
If a scan sees everything when the opponent does oracle play he either had horrible building placement or the terran has a maphack.
What annoys me is their fascination with early game aggression. To have some is good, to have tons of options for all 3 races just makes the game a gamble cluster fuck.
I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it.
On May 03 2013 17:46 Sissors wrote: If a scan sees everything when the opponent does oracle play he either had horrible building placement or the terran has a maphack.
What annoys me is their fascination with early game aggression. To have some is good, to have tons of options for all 3 races just makes the game a gamble cluster fuck.
I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it.
I don't see how. The only thing for protoss that would deter aggression is if they did a 6 gate all in and the zerg got burrow.
For terran this will never be an issue because of scan and if the terran realizes zerg has burrow they save scans as normal. This won't hurt any early aggression.
Any 4 gate play for toss, burrow won't even be starting to research unless zerg is doing some 1 base thing. Same with any sort of terran pressure reaper/fast hellion/2 rax. None of these will ever be affected by burrow it.
If I want to do an early bio push and a zerg burrows banelings, what can I do against it besides waiting until I got ravens out? Unlike mines I cannot send one marine ahead as suicide scout. And scan is nice if my army is at his base and I just saw he burrowed banelings on his ramp. But besides that I cannot burn 5 scans early game just to get to his base.
And the main problem, he doesn't need to actually have burrow, just the threat that he may have it is already a problem. Right now there is also a chance he has it, but since it is so unpopular to get early it is not something you have to worry too much about it.
On May 03 2013 08:14 lim1017 wrote: 50/50 burrow is gonna have burrow rushes into blocking naturtals..
No, it isn't. First of all, it it's hardly possible time-wise and more importantly, which Zerg likes to play 1 base vs. 1 base while the own economy is severely crippled?
Yes to spore crawler buff. I want to see more units when I watch ZvZ. Zerg got a hydra buff, Swarmhost added, viper added and even an ultra buff but all we see is ling/muta vs ling/muta. This isn't 1998, let's advance the match-up
Yes to burrow change. It's a little change and I'm interested to see what can come out of it.
On May 03 2013 17:46 Sissors wrote: If a scan sees everything when the opponent does oracle play he either had horrible building placement or the terran has a maphack.
What annoys me is their fascination with early game aggression. To have some is good, to have tons of options for all 3 races just makes the game a gamble cluster fuck.
I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it.
I don't see how. The only thing for protoss that would deter aggression is if they did a 6 gate all in and the zerg got burrow.
For terran this will never be an issue because of scan and if the terran realizes zerg has burrow they save scans as normal. This won't hurt any early aggression.
Any 4 gate play for toss, burrow won't even be starting to research unless zerg is doing some 1 base thing. Same with any sort of terran pressure reaper/fast hellion/2 rax. None of these will ever be affected by burrow it.
totally not true, if you do want to all in and they guy gets burrow tvz, you only have 1 orbital, which you do need for MULES to be abel to somehow comeback if you do soem damage but can't finish the guy, and even if you do save scans, you'll have 1? 2 max? if the guy attaks you on the middle of the map to slow you down and utilizes burrow, you scan and have nothing left the same way it worked when people went blink against a 1-1-1 with raven, you forced the engagement middle, you wasted pdd and protoss b, excat same scenario
Early burrow is much more a defensive tool than everything else. Waisting a scan so early in the game to pick up few drones or units with reapers/ hellions will never worth the 280 minerals of the mule. This will be a runby/drop killer at early stage of the game and will cripple 1 base terran aggresion a lot. Allins will be still fine but what is fun about Hots is the new ability to be aggressive without being allin in the early game. I wish zerg wouldn't have burrow for such a low cost but an improved nydus network or something designed purely for aggression and not for defense also as zerg have amazing defense tools already.
On May 03 2013 17:46 Sissors wrote: If a scan sees everything when the opponent does oracle play he either had horrible building placement or the terran has a maphack.
What annoys me is their fascination with early game aggression. To have some is good, to have tons of options for all 3 races just makes the game a gamble cluster fuck.
I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it.
I don't see how. The only thing for protoss that would deter aggression is if they did a 6 gate all in and the zerg got burrow.
For terran this will never be an issue because of scan and if the terran realizes zerg has burrow they save scans as normal. This won't hurt any early aggression.
Any 4 gate play for toss, burrow won't even be starting to research unless zerg is doing some 1 base thing. Same with any sort of terran pressure reaper/fast hellion/2 rax. None of these will ever be affected by burrow it.
totally not true, if you do want to all in and they guy gets burrow tvz, you only have 1 orbital, which you do need for MULES to be abel to somehow comeback if you do soem damage but can't finish the guy, and even if you do save scans, you'll have 1? 2 max? if the guy attaks you on the middle of the map to slow you down and utilizes burrow, you scan and have nothing left the same way it worked when people went blink against a 1-1-1 with raven, you forced the engagement middle, you wasted pdd and protoss b, excat same scenario
Not sure how the zerg is supposed to make that work. if he's in the middle of the map with an army, it's gonna be smaller than the terran one and probably everything will die while burrowing/unburroing. It's not like he's not wasting troops while doing this. And terran has the right to take an other path than the straight line (that works agaisnt banelings landmines too.
I would even say that if a zerg manage to make this works I would be impressed by his skill more than by the OPness of burrow.
And btw I don't see many current one base all-in from terran (8/8/8 and proxy 2 rax) agaisnt zerg that comes after the burrow...
they want to increase zerg early aggression and their tweaking tool is god damn burrow? wtf kind of build are they using inhouse to use it aggressively lol
On May 03 2013 09:37 Blargh wrote: I think Blizzard and their balance crew might actually be retarded for thinking medivacs needed a speed buff. They are a horribly designed unit which does very little for the game. If they want skill to have an impact on medivacs, then they should make it a micro-heavy air unit like Banshees. Banshees = good, speedmedivacs = bad. They kill workers/light units instantly, which is just stupid. They are already fast enough that they can get in there, kill 2-3 workers and run out even with a turret attacking, and they will only lose shield. I don't even mind medivacs that much in all-ins, it's just the harass that's bad.
See what i did there?
Screw everyone who is complaining about the oracle. Only matchup it was used alot in the early stages was PvT and it requires you to completely delay your normal tech paths and be vulnerable to high marine count pushes that hit around the 7 minute mark.
The oracle as it is now is a horribly bad unit for a protoss. a properly prepared terran can fend off an oracle with ease and then the protoss is very behind tech wise.
you do know that 5 marines kill an oracle right? that's 250 minerals against a 150/150 unit, that requires another 150/150 to be even produced out of a dead tech path.
Easiest way for a terran to deal with oracles is go to for a reactor barracks expand. Mine 50 gas for the reactor only and you will be safe against any oracle harass and only delays your CC by 30 seconds. Since all protoss open up two gasses already nowadays you will not put yourself in a bad position at all by going for a gas opener yourself
On May 03 2013 17:46 Sissors wrote: If a scan sees everything when the opponent does oracle play he either had horrible building placement or the terran has a maphack.
What annoys me is their fascination with early game aggression. To have some is good, to have tons of options for all 3 races just makes the game a gamble cluster fuck.
I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it.
We had that in beta and it was used mostly for attack. Besides, it's their intention of buffing early game aggression i was commenting on.
There are far bigger problems they should be working on, like Protoss still being nothing but a deathball race especially in late game now with an extra layer added on in the shape of the Tempest; mech looking worse then bio in TvT let alone in the other MUs; etc
Terrans that are whining on the oracle are pathetic, they play one matchup (yes, the mirror matchup) where they just drop battle hellions for the entire game and kill 50 scvs a game (at least), even with turrets or tanks on defense and now they whine about an oracle?
1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting
On May 03 2013 17:46 Sissors wrote: If a scan sees everything when the opponent does oracle play he either had horrible building placement or the terran has a maphack.
What annoys me is their fascination with early game aggression. To have some is good, to have tons of options for all 3 races just makes the game a gamble cluster fuck.
I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it.
We had that in beta and it was used mostly for attack. Besides, it's their intention of buffing early game aggression i was commenting on.
There are far bigger problems they should be working on, like Protoss still being nothing but a deathball race especially in late game now with an extra layer added on in the shape of the Tempest; mech looking worse then bio in TvT let alone in the other MUs; etc
To make a race less "death-bally" you need to buff their harassment units. But 50% of the terrans in this thread think the SC2 universe is dead if the oracle gets a very minor buff.
On May 03 2013 18:12 FrozenProbe wrote: Terrans that are whining on the oracle are pathetic, they play one matchup (yes, the mirror matchup) where they just drop battle hellions for the entire game and kill 50 scvs a game (at least), even with turrets or tanks on defense and now they whine about an oracle?
1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting
mirror matchups can't be included in balance topics, for obvious reasons
and ultra lategame tvp does favor terran, i'm not complaining about that (even though it just requires to a click from toss and land a few storms, but let's pass on that)
On May 03 2013 18:12 FrozenProbe wrote: Terrans that are whining on the oracle are pathetic, they play one matchup (yes, the mirror matchup) where they just drop battle hellions for the entire game and kill 50 scvs a game (at least), even with turrets or tanks on defense and now they whine about an oracle?
1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting
I wish I had the link, but grubby explains it pretty well. Protoss is afterall the a-move easy-mode race once you put auto-cast on forcefields and storm. I'll try to find the link...
ZvZ is now in his best moment, u need to attack/defense in 2-3 places at same time with Ling-muta-bane and have a good micro with ur units...looks like the bronzes players criying in the forums+blizzard want the roach vs roach 1A style back. Great =] /No
Also i dont know why they change the oracle...when medevacs,hellbats and mines are clearly op. :D
On May 03 2013 18:12 FrozenProbe wrote: Terrans that are whining on the oracle are pathetic, they play one matchup (yes, the mirror matchup) where they just drop battle hellions for the entire game and kill 50 scvs a game (at least), even with turrets or tanks on defense and now they whine about an oracle?
1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting
mirror matchups can't be included in balance topics, for obvious reasons
His point is that in TvT, terrans practically doomdrop all game over missle turrets and workers are slaughtered in the masses. But somehow in TvP, a single oracle that is actually shutdown by missle turrets (unlike 3 medivac hellbat drops) is a huge problem, even though it is also less dps than a standard hellbat drop.
On May 03 2013 18:18 -IeZaeL- wrote: ZvZ is now in his best moment, u need to attack/defense in 2-3 places at same time with Ling-muta-bane and have a good micro with ur units...looks like the bronzes players criying in the forums+blizzard want the roach vs roach 1A style back. Great =] /No
Also i dont know why they change the oracle...when medevacs,hellbats and mines are clearly op. :D
funny, talking about how people that don't like BO-win muta/ling/bling "don't want to micro" and lack multitasking and then complaing about medivacs, hellbats and mines because you need to micro and multitask against them...
On May 03 2013 18:12 FrozenProbe wrote: Terrans that are whining on the oracle are pathetic, they play one matchup (yes, the mirror matchup) where they just drop battle hellions for the entire game and kill 50 scvs a game (at least), even with turrets or tanks on defense and now they whine about an oracle?
1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting
mirror matchups can't be included in balance topics, for obvious reasons
His point is that in TvT, terrans practically doomdrop all game over missle turrets and workers are slaughtered in the masses. But somehow in TvP, a single oracle that is actually shutdown by missle turrets (unlike 3 medivac hellbat drops) is a huge problem, even though it is also less dps than a standard hellbat drop.
thats because we have no efficient defensive units as terran to defend drops, but it's ok since both parties can drop in TvT
as protoss, one HT to feedback, a couple of cannons that can also attak ground units once medivac drop, easy to repel
as terran, you can't leave a single 2 supply unit that will coutner a drop, and we have no defensive structures to attak ground (don't even mention pf's, they're more then useless for this)
On May 03 2013 18:12 FrozenProbe wrote: Terrans that are whining on the oracle are pathetic, they play one matchup (yes, the mirror matchup) where they just drop battle hellions for the entire game and kill 50 scvs a game (at least), even with turrets or tanks on defense and now they whine about an oracle?
1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting
mirror matchups can't be included in balance topics, for obvious reasons
His point is that in TvT, terrans practically doomdrop all game over missle turrets and workers are slaughtered in the masses. But somehow in TvP, a single oracle that is actually shutdown by missle turrets (unlike 3 medivac hellbat drops) is a huge problem, even though it is also less dps than a standard hellbat drop.
thats because we have no efficient defensive units as terran to defend drops, but it's ok since both parties can drop in TvT
as protoss, one HT to feedback, a couple of cannons that can also attak ground units once medivac drop, easy to repel
as terran, you can't leave a single 2 supply unit that will coutner a drop, and we have no defensive structures to attak ground (don't even mention pf's, they're more then useless for this)
Play protoss for a few games against terran. You'll see it's not that easy. You'll see that oracles actually don't feel that strong, and that protoss actually has some difficulty defending drops. Sure, leave an HT to feedback, better hope you have enough splash in your army otherwise it'll get rolled by stimmed bio. It's a very tight ledge to walk with leaving HT behind. If that drop gets off without killing the medivac you lose a lot with that HT.
And we are talking about oracles. A 100 mineral investment is enough to deter oracles usually. Maybe 200 mineral investment at most. Compare that to the 150 gas investment from a very gas-dependent race.
On May 03 2013 18:12 FrozenProbe wrote: Terrans that are whining on the oracle are pathetic, they play one matchup (yes, the mirror matchup) where they just drop battle hellions for the entire game and kill 50 scvs a game (at least), even with turrets or tanks on defense and now they whine about an oracle?
1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting
mirror matchups can't be included in balance topics, for obvious reasons
His point is that in TvT, terrans practically doomdrop all game over missle turrets and workers are slaughtered in the masses. But somehow in TvP, a single oracle that is actually shutdown by missle turrets (unlike 3 medivac hellbat drops) is a huge problem, even though it is also less dps than a standard hellbat drop.
thats because we have no efficient defensive units as terran to defend drops, but it's ok since both parties can drop in TvT
as protoss, one HT to feedback, a couple of cannons that can also attak ground units once medivac drop, easy to repel
as terran, you can't leave a single 2 supply unit that will coutner a drop, and we have no defensive structures to attak ground (don't even mention pf's, they're more then useless for this)
Play protoss for a few games against terran. You'll see it's not that easy. You'll see that oracles actually don't feel that strong, and that protoss actually has some difficulty defending drops. Sure, leave an HT to feedback, better hope you have enough splash in your army otherwise it'll get rolled by stimmed bio. It's a very tight ledge to walk with leaving HT behind. If that drop gets off without killing the medivac you lose a lot with that HT.
And we are talking about oracles. A 100 mineral investment is enough to deter oracles usually. Maybe 200 mineral investment at most. Compare that to the 150 gas investment from a very gas-dependent race.
it OBVIUSLY has to cost less to defend something then to be the agressive player, otherwise, there would be no point at all in defending same can be said for cloak banshees, why the hell do you think we don't make any anymore? why not buff THEM??
and i do offrace protoss, my mmr is as high as my main terran account (with an 80% winrate pvt... biggest problem is pvp i've never understood that matchup)
On May 03 2013 18:12 FrozenProbe wrote: Terrans that are whining on the oracle are pathetic, they play one matchup (yes, the mirror matchup) where they just drop battle hellions for the entire game and kill 50 scvs a game (at least), even with turrets or tanks on defense and now they whine about an oracle?
1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting
mirror matchups can't be included in balance topics, for obvious reasons
His point is that in TvT, terrans practically doomdrop all game over missle turrets and workers are slaughtered in the masses. But somehow in TvP, a single oracle that is actually shutdown by missle turrets (unlike 3 medivac hellbat drops) is a huge problem, even though it is also less dps than a standard hellbat drop.
thats because we have no efficient defensive units as terran to defend drops, but it's ok since both parties can drop in TvT
as protoss, one HT to feedback, a couple of cannons that can also attak ground units once medivac drop, easy to repel
as terran, you can't leave a single 2 supply unit that will coutner a drop, and we have no defensive structures to attak ground (don't even mention pf's, they're more then useless for this)
Play protoss for a few games against terran. You'll see it's not that easy. You'll see that oracles actually don't feel that strong, and that protoss actually has some difficulty defending drops. Sure, leave an HT to feedback, better hope you have enough splash in your army otherwise it'll get rolled by stimmed bio. It's a very tight ledge to walk with leaving HT behind. If that drop gets off without killing the medivac you lose a lot with that HT.
And we are talking about oracles. A 100 mineral investment is enough to deter oracles usually. Maybe 200 mineral investment at most. Compare that to the 150 gas investment from a very gas-dependent race.
and i do offrace protoss, my mmr is as high as my main terran account (with an 80% winrate pvt... biggest problem is pvp i've never understood that matchup)
It's like ZvZ, but you replace mutas with phoenix, and infestors with archons
On May 03 2013 18:12 FrozenProbe wrote: Terrans that are whining on the oracle are pathetic, they play one matchup (yes, the mirror matchup) where they just drop battle hellions for the entire game and kill 50 scvs a game (at least), even with turrets or tanks on defense and now they whine about an oracle?
1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting
mirror matchups can't be included in balance topics, for obvious reasons
His point is that in TvT, terrans practically doomdrop all game over missle turrets and workers are slaughtered in the masses. But somehow in TvP, a single oracle that is actually shutdown by missle turrets (unlike 3 medivac hellbat drops) is a huge problem, even though it is also less dps than a standard hellbat drop.
thats because we have no efficient defensive units as terran to defend drops, but it's ok since both parties can drop in TvT
as protoss, one HT to feedback, a couple of cannons that can also attak ground units once medivac drop, easy to repel
as terran, you can't leave a single 2 supply unit that will coutner a drop, and we have no defensive structures to attak ground (don't even mention pf's, they're more then useless for this)
Play protoss for a few games against terran. You'll see it's not that easy. You'll see that oracles actually don't feel that strong, and that protoss actually has some difficulty defending drops. Sure, leave an HT to feedback, better hope you have enough splash in your army otherwise it'll get rolled by stimmed bio. It's a very tight ledge to walk with leaving HT behind. If that drop gets off without killing the medivac you lose a lot with that HT.
And we are talking about oracles. A 100 mineral investment is enough to deter oracles usually. Maybe 200 mineral investment at most. Compare that to the 150 gas investment from a very gas-dependent race.
and i do offrace protoss, my mmr is as high as my main terran account (with an 80% winrate pvt... biggest problem is pvp i've never understood that matchup)
It's like ZvZ, but you replace mutas with phoenix, and infestors with archons
I've never understood ZvZ either :p i used to play random but stopped because i sucked at those 2 matchups^^
I'm laughing at how they're not understanding what the problem with mutalisks comes from. They've got too much hp, while being an absurdly strong harassing unit. They can't be excellent fighters at the same time.
On May 03 2013 17:46 Sissors wrote: If a scan sees everything when the opponent does oracle play he either had horrible building placement or the terran has a maphack.
What annoys me is their fascination with early game aggression. To have some is good, to have tons of options for all 3 races just makes the game a gamble cluster fuck.
I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it.
We had that in beta and it was used mostly for attack. Besides, it's their intention of buffing early game aggression i was commenting on.
There are far bigger problems they should be working on, like Protoss still being nothing but a deathball race especially in late game now with an extra layer added on in the shape of the Tempest; mech looking worse then bio in TvT let alone in the other MUs; etc
To make a race less "death-bally" you need to buff their harassment units.
This is an interesting topic actually. It looks like this is what Blizzards logic was also, create some harass based units==fewer deathballs. That's not what happens though is it? If those harassment based units are good enough, you just build them, and end up with a slightly smaller deathball.
Terran can get away with this because they harass with the same units they fight, so in essence they end up splitting their army==no deathball. Similar for Zerg with Mutas and Ling runbys.
I guess my point is the Oracle is not a very good/ thought out unit to begin with.
How is that supposed to change anything in a good way??
Spore Craweler Buff... it does more dmg but not even the anti air tower of Terran can hold mass muta harassment. 1 LP/s reg is too much to be afraid of tower. (other races are not involved)
Burrow research cost decreased: The best I imagine about it is a burrowed ling under my third.(every race). And that most all-ins are hold now thanks to burrowed roaches. But do you guys even thought for a moment that all zerg will now start roach all-ins in PvZ ? So how to gateway expand? Toss got 3 ways to detect. First is an Tower(FFE which we have to go now every game). Observers, and Oracles which both came way to late or make toss way to vulnerable to attacks.
Oracle speed buff: You say a anti air tower or units would make it better? You DO know that you can shift-klick worker so the oracle give a fuck about defence? Worst match up will be now PvP. Thanks.
On May 03 2013 17:46 Sissors wrote: If a scan sees everything when the opponent does oracle play he either had horrible building placement or the terran has a maphack.
What annoys me is their fascination with early game aggression. To have some is good, to have tons of options for all 3 races just makes the game a gamble cluster fuck.
I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it.
We had that in beta and it was used mostly for attack. Besides, it's their intention of buffing early game aggression i was commenting on.
There are far bigger problems they should be working on, like Protoss still being nothing but a deathball race especially in late game now with an extra layer added on in the shape of the Tempest; mech looking worse then bio in TvT let alone in the other MUs; etc
To make a race less "death-bally" you need to buff their harassment units.
This is an interesting topic actually. It looks like this is what Blizzards logic was also, create some harass based units==fewer deathballs. That's not what happens though is it? If those harassment based units are good enough, you just build them, and end up with a slightly smaller deathball.
Terran can get away with this because they harass with the same units they fight, so in essence they end up splitting their army==no deathball. Similar for Zerg with Mutas and Ling runbys.
I guess my point is the Oracle is not a very good/ thought out unit to begin with.
Yeah exactly. The problem is, it's just now worth to drop gateway units to harass, they're not costefficient enough imho. As a protoss player, i really dislike the deathball, i wanna be move agressive. But there's almost nothing you can do, phoenix & oracles are quickly shut down with a turret/spore, drops can do some damage ofc, but its nothing compared to a marine/hellbat/widow mine drop.
Anyway, i'm not whining, i have big hopes that sOs will show us all how to play protoss properly
On May 03 2013 17:46 Sissors wrote: If a scan sees everything when the opponent does oracle play he either had horrible building placement or the terran has a maphack.
What annoys me is their fascination with early game aggression. To have some is good, to have tons of options for all 3 races just makes the game a gamble cluster fuck.
I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it.
We had that in beta and it was used mostly for attack. Besides, it's their intention of buffing early game aggression i was commenting on.
There are far bigger problems they should be working on, like Protoss still being nothing but a deathball race especially in late game now with an extra layer added on in the shape of the Tempest; mech looking worse then bio in TvT let alone in the other MUs; etc
To make a race less "death-bally" you need to buff their harassment units.
To make a race less deathbally, harrassment units are nice. That's not really the core issue with protoss though. The core issue is that stalkers are a pretty bad combat unit and aoe is way to strong. It's not a balance issue, the game is decently balanced around it, but warpgate and the sentry brought us to this point where the stalker(dragoon) couldn't keep up with terran's bio and zerg units(pathing and larvae inject) from BW to SC2. With a stronger gateway army and weaker aoe, units such as the stargate ones would be less allin and served more purpose throughout the game.
People often complain about how expensive the oracle is and while that is certainly true, going cloakshee is more expensive and is fine. Reason is starport is awesome, stargate is a dead-end tech due to protoss aoe requirement.
There are many reasons why the oracle is a questionable unit, its speed was never a problem.
On May 03 2013 18:18 -IeZaeL- wrote: ZvZ is now in his best moment, u need to attack/defense in 2-3 places at same time with Ling-muta-bane and have a good micro with ur units...looks like the bronzes players criying in the forums+blizzard want the roach vs roach 1A style back. Great =] /No
Also i dont know why they change the oracle...when medevacs,hellbats and mines are clearly op. :D
funny, talking about how people that don't like BO-win muta/ling/bling "don't want to micro" and lack multitasking and then complaing about medivacs, hellbats and mines because you need to micro and multitask against them...
It's not an issue that we have to micro against widow mine, it's a good thing for sure, but the fact the amount of micro to deal against is way more to use it, it's like infestor time again but the other way around. I like the addition of widow mine, it add a lot to the ZvT match up but it looks like an invisible, autocast fungal growth from a zerg perspective. ^_^
On May 03 2013 17:46 Sissors wrote: If a scan sees everything when the opponent does oracle play he either had horrible building placement or the terran has a maphack.
What annoys me is their fascination with early game aggression. To have some is good, to have tons of options for all 3 races just makes the game a gamble cluster fuck.
I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it.
We had that in beta and it was used mostly for attack. Besides, it's their intention of buffing early game aggression i was commenting on.
There are far bigger problems they should be working on, like Protoss still being nothing but a deathball race especially in late game now with an extra layer added on in the shape of the Tempest; mech looking worse then bio in TvT let alone in the other MUs; etc
To make a race less "death-bally" you need to buff their harassment units.
This is an interesting topic actually. It looks like this is what Blizzards logic was also, create some harass based units==fewer deathballs. That's not what happens though is it? If those harassment based units are good enough, you just build them, and end up with a slightly smaller deathball.
Terran can get away with this because they harass with the same units they fight, so in essence they end up splitting their army==no deathball. Similar for Zerg with Mutas and Ling runbys.
I guess my point is the Oracle is not a very good/ thought out unit to begin with.
Yeah exactly. The problem is, it's just now worth to drop gateway units to harass, they're not costefficient enough imho. As a protoss player, i really dislike the deathball, i wanna be move agressive. But there's almost nothing you can do, phoenix & oracles are quickly shut down with a turret/spore, drops can do some damage ofc, but its nothing compared to a marine/hellbat/widow mine drop.
Anyway, i'm not whining, i have big hopes that sOs will show us all how to play protoss properly
Have you seen Madbull v Byun in the GSTL? Madbull was aggressive the whole game with constant harassment, plus it was a really good game (it was the first match, so the replay is free to watch).
I don't understand, why Blizzard keeps making unnecessary changes, which might completely break the balance of the game.
In WoL the Queen range buff/overlord speed buff came out of nowhere, and after 1 week of ''testing'' it was just added to the game. I approve of the idea, to make spore crawlers better, to maybe change ZvZ, but buffing completely fine, if not even very strong units like the oracle for no apparent reason, is a very bad thing imo. Burrow is already a very good tool for zergs, burrow 1 ling at an expansion and the cost for the scan makes the research costs for borrow already worthwile, not to speak of baneling landmines, which are very cost efficient vs terran even if they dont hit, again because of the scan needed to reveal them.
Really hope that the only thing they might keep from this balance testing, will be the spore crawler change.
There is a difference: workers outrun hellbats. Hellbet drops, scv run away. The threat comes from the ability to pick them up and redrop them into to clumped , drawn away worker bunch. This threat only exists if there is no turret in the line, because the medivac wont be able to do the pickup redrop action. if u dont sleep, u dont loose workers to hellbat drops, and if u build a turret + have some units around, the hellbat drop will never be cost efficient.
If u build a turret in your mineral line, and an oracle comes in. it will kill workers, staying outside of the turret, no matter what. Pulling workers away doesnt help because it is FASTER. if u build like 2 or 3 turrets, toss can go camp your production with it, or kill a reactor or snipe your stim.
I rarely loose workers to hellbats or mines, but to oracle im guaranteed to loose either 8-9 workers in like 3 seconds, or otherwise marines / techlabs /reactors. Oracle with this beam is like having the firepower 3 banshees at once. Watch gstl right now, watch awsomeness of oracle. Buffing it is the wrongest idea ever.
On May 03 2013 19:03 Holo82 wrote: There is a difference: workers outrun hellbats. Hellbet drops, scv run away. The threat comes from the ability to pick them up and redrop them into to clumped , drawn away worker bunch. This threat only exists if there is no turret in the line, because the medivac wont be able to do the pickup redrop action. if u dont sleep, u dont loose workers to hellbat drops, and if u build a turret + have some units around, the hellbat drop will never be cost efficient.
If u build a turret in your mineral line, and an oracle comes in. it will kill workers, staying outside of the turret, no matter what. Pulling workers away doesnt help because it is FASTER. if u build like 2 or 3 turrets, toss can go camp your production with it, or kill a reactor or snipe your stim.
I rarely loose workers to hellbats or mines, but to oracle im guaranteed to loose either 8-9 workers in like 3 seconds, or otherwise marines / techlabs /reactors. Oracle with this beam is like having the firepower 3 banshees at once. Watch gstl right now, watch awsomeness of oracle. Buffing it is the wrongest idea ever.
DPS of a banshee: 19.2 Gas cost: 100 Range: 6
DPS of an oracle: 29 Gas cost: 150 Range: 4
So no, it is not at all like 3 banshees at once. Oracles are also on a clock when harassing unlike banshees. And if an oracle is camping your production, then you did something seriously wrong, such as not having enough production to begin with. Again, the oracle is on a clock with how its attack works.
Also, it takes the oracle 2 seconds to kill a worker, so I'll just assume the 8-9 workers in 3 seconds means your opponent has 6 oracles. I hope his zealot army at home is good enough to kill your stimmed bio with medivacs, because you should just go and kill him.
The biggest problem in nowadays TvP is that DTs come much cheaper now and oracles win the game if you dont have a turret ready because they just evaporate mineral lines. Those 2 things are not advantage gaining most of the time - theyre game winning. Thats exactly why terrans always get 2 turrents in both mineral lines and thats why we so rarely see protosses going for oracles. Players always prepare for those 2 rushes because if they do come you just lose the game. Demuslim talked about it on his stream - he always gets those turrets because against protoss its always better to be safe than sorry and even though out of 10 TvPs lets say youre gonna be 9 times left with earlier ebay and 2 turrets for nothing its that one game that you won just out right lose makeing it worth it.
To be honest I dont know why the see an issue in 1 turret denying the oracles, something that is scouted or taken a precursion of just to be safe should be rewarding. If I went for a cloaked banshee and Protoss has 2 stalkers with obs in each mineral line or a cannon nobody would care about my banshee being useless - they would tell me "You got scouted and denied, deal with it" so why this doesnt apply to protoss? I wouldnt mind a buff to the oracle if the werent frying marines faster than a fricken collosus and blue flame helion together but I think to be fair banshee should also be given a look at.
Balance wise I dont really see why would somebody want to buff protoss now since from what we see they have the better end of all match ups in terms of winrates.
On the other side of things I belive protoss has too many all ins and is the only race that isnt susceptible to any thanks to the siege nexus. Its an uncool feeling when you rightfully lose to a protoss all in that you havent scouted but they just make a nexus cannon and show you the middle finger no matter how surprised by your strategy they are.
Also, it takes the oracle 2 seconds to kill a worker, so I'll just assume the 8-9 workers in 3 seconds means your opponent has 6 oracles. I hope his zealot army at home is good enough to kill your stimmed bio with medivacs, because you should just go and kill him.
You dont even have a factory started when oracles come in and his zealot army and nexus canoon is enought to hold much more than you have as a terran at that point in the game.
So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Even if the game is a wreck I like that they are rather buffing everything then nerfing shit into the ground. Wish we'd get some old nerfs reverted tho.
To be honest I dont know why the see an issue in 1 turret denying the oracles, something that is scouted or taken a precursion of just to be safe should be rewarding. If I went for a cloaked banshee and Protoss has 2 stalkers with obs in each mineral line or a cannon nobody would care about my banshee being useless - they would tell me "You got scouted and denied, deal with it" so why this doesnt apply to protoss? I wouldnt mind a buff to the oracle if the werent frying marines faster than a fricken collosus and blue flame helion together but I think to be fair banshee should also be given a look at.
Balance wise I dont really see why would somebody want to buff protoss now since from what we see they have the better end of all match ups in terms of winrates.
On the other side of things I belive protoss has too many all ins and is the only race that isnt susceptible to any thanks to the siege nexus. Its an uncool feeling when you rightfully lose to a protoss all in that you havent scouted but they just make a nexus cannon and show you the middle finger no matter how surprised by your strategy they are.
This guy hits the nail on the head: - If I go cloacked banshee, and the opponent has a turret / obs + stalker / queen + spore ready, then my harass is denied, no problem here. - I got the feeling that blizzard wants the oracle to do damage, w/e the opponent does. - At the moment these are the options when protoss opens double gass: 1) proxy oracle 2) DT 3) DT drop 4) voidray allin 5) Blinkstalker allin 6) 4-5gate frontal 7) 4gate prism 8) 3 gate immortal allin 9) 1 base collossus prism allin (I know this sounds ridicilous, but thank god only very few protoss players know a good one)
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Protoss as a race is wrecked, tho, I hate playing it. It's half warcraftesque with heroes and gimmicks, and half coinflippy all-in w/ deathballs.
reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game.
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Protoss as a race is wrecked, tho, I hate playing it. It's half warcraftesque with heroes and gimmicks, and half coinflippy all-in w/ deathballs.
Maybe, but the problem is the gimmicks (forcefields, storm, time warp, warp-ins) are all super strong, so players who abuse them best (Parting, Squirtle, Nani, etc.) do incredibly well with them. Protoss just feel incredibly badly designed compared to Terran (standard production mechanic) and Zerg (larvae at least require you to keep up on injects and maintain a decent bank/proper larva usage). Warp-in anywhere you can get a 100 mineral building up or a Warp Prism and completely negate defenders advantage in drawn out fights?
All of these changes make no sense at the highest level of play, I guess long term the oracle may make sense given that top level terrans will get better and better at defending them. But the spore/burrow change is the most unnecessary change I have seen since they randomly removed siege mode upgrade. Zerg pressure/cheese is strong enough without almost free burrow but the spore change is so fucking retarded. They say they only care about the highest level of play, which is great thats how it should be, but at that very level zvz is starting to be fine and people are starting to be able to transition, yet they make this stupid change. I hope none of these go through, hots would be in a better state without this patch.
On May 03 2013 19:24 FrozenProbe wrote: reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game.
Meanwhile the people who don't know what they are talking about can comment? Grubby vs polt @ dreamhack? Or hello, Naniwa vs jaedong? Or do you want more examples?
Tell me the difference between a banshee and an oracle? Oh wait, yes, the banshee kills workers slower. If the enemy has a phoenix or a muta, then the banshee will DIE. And yes, it can be cloacked, but that requires an expensive upgrade. Meanwhile the banshee is as useful as the oracle in battles.
What do you want the oracle to be? A 100% damage doing harass unit that becomes a strong collossus-like unit in battle???
On May 03 2013 19:24 FrozenProbe wrote: reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game.
Read two posts up. Toss currently has 9 two-gas all-in/cheese builds. It is the variety that makes them so strong - and the lack of ability to guess what in fact is coming. There is absolute no point in buffing these cheesy strats in any way - this will only lead to more short/coinflippy games.
And the toss seem to be doing really well in the last couple of weeks (although they did have a rough start in HotS). In fact, I have a feeling that the game has never been balanced that well. I say: don't fix something that is not broken., Let it play out.
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL.
Ok.
sure taking 1 example out of i do'nt know how many sure prooves your point
in that case we terrans says look at dreamhack!
and sayign that i'm not complaining, what happened there with almost no terran advancing was normal with the competition there was
you can't take a SINGLE tournament as an example
edit : and no hellbat change ask blizz, they are the ones focusing on minor balance when there are bigger issues
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL.
Ok.
This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine.
In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill.
On May 03 2013 19:38 Syn Harvest wrote: why still no hellbat change
Changing the hellbat is very risky for mech. Mech is already not so great.. People will counter these hellbat drops better and better, give it some time.
On May 03 2013 19:24 FrozenProbe wrote: reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game.
Read two posts up. Toss currently has 9 two-gas all-in/cheese builds. It is the variety that makes them so strong - and the lack of ability to guess what in fact is coming. There is absolute no point in buffing these cheesy strats in any way - this will only lead to more short/coinflippy games.
And the toss seem to be doing really well in the last couple of weeks (although they did have a rough start in HotS). In fact, I have a feeling that the game has never been balanced that well. I say: don't fix something that is not broken., Let it play out.
the poster of that is really biased and don't know that half of those allins are crap (1 colossus prism lol), and you've the reaper, you can scout every single allin, it's pretty easy. No second pylon? It's a fast proxy oracle, no third pylon? It's a standard proxy something or a 4 gate, but a 4 gate is on one gas at most, and you've the repaer you can scout the entire main base of the protoss in a second. Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? (yo I cannot even know how many gaysers you have)
Polt versus grubby? Someone that scouts a proxy oracle twice and lose without a single turret is just overconfident, it was something like "yeah, I'm the korean badass here and this poor european won't win against me, even with proxy oracles".. on twitter he said that he played really bad. Get real plz, stop whining on toss allins, especially if you're terran.
On May 03 2013 19:24 FrozenProbe wrote: reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game.
Read two posts up. Toss currently has 9 two-gas all-in/cheese builds. It is the variety that makes them so strong - and the lack of ability to guess what in fact is coming. There is absolute no point in buffing these cheesy strats in any way - this will only lead to more short/coinflippy games.
And the toss seem to be doing really well in the last couple of weeks (although they did have a rough start in HotS). In fact, I have a feeling that the game has never been balanced that well. I say: don't fix something that is not broken., Let it play out.
the poster of that is really biased and don't know that half of those allins are crap (1 colossus prism lol), and you've the reaper, you can scout every single allin, it's pretty easy. No second pylon? It's a fast proxy oracle, no third pylon? It's a standard proxy something or a 4 gate, but a 4 gate is on one gas at most, and you've the repaer you can scout the entire main base of the protoss in a second. Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? (yo I cannot even know how many gaysers you have)
Polt versus grubby? Someone that scouts a proxy oracle twice and lose without a single turret is just overconfident, it was something like "yeah, I'm the korean badass here and this poor european won't win against me, even with proxy oracles".. on twitter he said that he played really bad. Get real plz, stop whining on toss allins, especially if you're terran.
The efficiency of the all-ins varies. Some builds seem to be really good (3g blink+mcs?), other are a good option for a single game in a BoX series. That is enough.
To much cheese / to strong cheeses make up for a poor ladder experience and a poor viewer experience. Oh, and I play random.
On May 03 2013 19:24 FrozenProbe wrote: reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game.
Read two posts up. Toss currently has 9 two-gas all-in/cheese builds. It is the variety that makes them so strong - and the lack of ability to guess what in fact is coming. There is absolute no point in buffing these cheesy strats in any way - this will only lead to more short/coinflippy games.
And the toss seem to be doing really well in the last couple of weeks (although they did have a rough start in HotS). In fact, I have a feeling that the game has never been balanced that well. I say: don't fix something that is not broken., Let it play out.
the poster of that is really biased and don't know that half of those allins are crap (1 colossus prism lol), and you've the reaper, you can scout every single allin, it's pretty easy. No second pylon? It's a fast proxy oracle, no third pylon? It's a standard proxy something or a 4 gate, but a 4 gate is on one gas at most, and you've the repaer you can scout the entire main base of the protoss in a second. Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? (yo I cannot even know how many gaysers you have)
Polt versus grubby? Someone that scouts a proxy oracle twice and lose without a single turret is just overconfident, it was something like "yeah, I'm the korean badass here and this poor european won't win against me, even with proxy oracles".. on twitter he said that he played really bad. Get real plz, stop whining on toss allins, especially if you're terran.
Well that's my point: very few protoss players know a good 1 base collossus allin (I'm talking about highmaster-grandmaster level), and thank god for that, because it's a hell to hold it. You make bunkers in front, and BAM he comes to your main with a prism. No bunkers in range. How do you think this goes?
Tell me what allin in that list is crap? And a 4-5 gate can be with double gas. It hit's later, but with more sentries.
Reapers can scout untill you got a stalker and a mothershipcore out. Then it's over with the scoutfun.
A reaper opening into expand is indeed good for scouting, but after the reaper + expo you have 2 options: - you do like flash, and you make a reactor. Now you have 1 reaper. What if he goes for a stalker mccore push? - you start making marines. You will die against proxy oracle because you will never have enough marines out in time.
So the reaper is actually a coinflippy opening IMO. Please someone tell me I am wrong.
On May 03 2013 19:24 FrozenProbe wrote: reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game.
Read two posts up. Toss currently has 9 two-gas all-in/cheese builds. It is the variety that makes them so strong - and the lack of ability to guess what in fact is coming. There is absolute no point in buffing these cheesy strats in any way - this will only lead to more short/coinflippy games.
And the toss seem to be doing really well in the last couple of weeks (although they did have a rough start in HotS). In fact, I have a feeling that the game has never been balanced that well. I say: don't fix something that is not broken., Let it play out.
the poster of that is really biased and don't know that half of those allins are crap (1 colossus prism lol), and you've the reaper, you can scout every single allin, it's pretty easy. No second pylon? It's a fast proxy oracle, no third pylon? It's a standard proxy something or a 4 gate, but a 4 gate is on one gas at most, and you've the repaer you can scout the entire main base of the protoss in a second. Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? (yo I cannot even know how many gaysers you have)
Polt versus grubby? Someone that scouts a proxy oracle twice and lose without a single turret is just overconfident, it was something like "yeah, I'm the korean badass here and this poor european won't win against me, even with proxy oracles".. on twitter he said that he played really bad. Get real plz, stop whining on toss allins, especially if you're terran.
Well the point is that Protoss early all-in options do NOT need a buff.
You can't tell anything by pylons, they can just be hidden and still going for a different play. The only thing you can see is 1 or 2 gas, and there are 7 very strong all-ins off 2 gas (proxy stargate, proxy robo, DT, DT warp prism, 3gate stargate, immortal drop, blink). All of them require a precise response or you are dead, and if you prepare for all of them you are dead as well.
the poster of that is really biased and don't know that half of those allins are crap (1 colossus prism lol), and you've the reaper, you can scout every single allin, it's pretty easy. No second pylon? It's a fast proxy oracle, no third pylon? It's a standard proxy something or a 4 gate, but a 4 gate is on one gas at most, and you've the repaer you can scout the entire main base of the protoss in a second. Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? (yo I cannot even know how many gaysers you have)
In fact I do know how many all ins terran can throw off behind his wall, the answer is zero and even if you do something crazy the nexus cannon wins the game everytime. The biased poster here is you, These are the all ins that P has vs T: 1) proxy oracle 2) DT 3) DT drop 4) voidray allin 5) Blinkstalker allin 6) 4-5gate frontal 7) 4gate prism 8) 3 gate immortal allin And all those are a pain in the butt to hold off even when scouted compared to you just putting on the nexus cannon and feeling fine and dandy. Theyre all amazingly strong, you think theyre crap because you dont have 100% win rate when you do them?
On May 03 2013 19:51 murphs wrote: They can make the oracle move at 100 speed, it still only takes 1 missile turret to be immune. Oh and you get immunity to DTs too.
Terran players really are pathetic.
Then I request a banshee at 100 speed, since it only takes 1 turret, 1 spore and 1 cannon to be immune.
the poster of that is really biased and don't know that half of those allins are crap (1 colossus prism lol), and you've the reaper, you can scout every single allin, it's pretty easy. No second pylon? It's a fast proxy oracle, no third pylon? It's a standard proxy something or a 4 gate, but a 4 gate is on one gas at most, and you've the repaer you can scout the entire main base of the protoss in a second. Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? (yo I cannot even know how many gaysers you have)
In fact I do know how many all ins terran can throw off behind his wall, the answer is zero and even if you do something crazy the nexus cannon wins the game everytime. The biased poster here is you, These are the all ins that P has vs T: 1) proxy oracle 2) DT 3) DT drop 4) voidray allin 5) Blinkstalker allin 6) 4-5gate frontal 7) 4gate prism 8) 3 gate immortal allin And all those are a pain in the butt to hold off even when scouted compared to you just putting on the nexus cannon and feeling fine and dandy. Theyre all amazingly strong, you think theyre crap because you dont have 100% win rate when you do them?
Wow. Those terran pros must be so good to somehow manage to beat protoss every once in a while. I've heard protoss wins lategame, plus they have 8 builds that terran has to guess at or they auto lose (so they win about 87.5% of the time at the very least). I guess that explains the 95% winrate for protoss in TvP.
On May 03 2013 19:51 murphs wrote: They can make the oracle move at 100 speed, it still only takes 1 missile turret to be immune. Oh and you get immunity to DTs too.
Terran players really are pathetic.
Fun fact 1: maybe getting an early EB and 2 Turrets slows down Terran's development? Fun fact 2: Turrets have only 7 range, so they don't perfectly protect both extremities, so you can still pick some SCVs with your Oracle(s). Fun fact 3: Turrets don't prevent one Oracle from casting Revelation on Medivacs so you can know where is the Terran's army (Rain vs Flash, Neo Planet S, Proleague). Fun fact 4: Educating oneself before insulting other players is a very useful talent toi have.
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL.
Ok.
This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine.
In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill.
Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races.
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL.
Ok.
This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine.
In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill.
Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races.
To add to that, of the 5 all kills in the GSTL, four of them are terran. Of the EU WCS, terran has a ridiculously high advancement rate. Terran is not by any means struggling like this thread sounds. In fact, terran is in a very good spot right now, just like the other races. The game is for the most part balanced (the only spot to keep an eye on right now is terran, yes terran, in TvZ). So small changes to make the game more interesting, such as an incredibly small speed buff to the oracle should be perfectly fine.
Those changes (cheaper borrow, oracle speed buff) could be fine for T if it goes along with a cheaper turret. I mean, terrans are nowadays in desperate needs of turrets (borrow, oracles, DTs, voids, medivac speedboost etc.). With the current cost of turret right now, it is too much of an investment for T in early game, especially facing a 1 base all-in. I'm fine with those changes, as long as the turret cost is reduce by a bit. Thoughts?
I don't care about balance changes, what's really wrong is their testing method. These maps are badly advertised, they end up being rarely played because small balance tweaks can't attract many people, and there is no control over the skill disparity between players. Ultimately the number of meaningful games with the right composition/gameplay situation and equal (high) skill level is very very low.
They really need to do that ON LADDER. It is really that simple, mark 1-2 ladder maps as "balance testing", make it clear in the loading screen, and put an additional checkbox in the map preferences so that players can choose wheter they want to test or not.
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL.
Ok.
This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine.
In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill.
Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races.
And in Ro16 two strong tosses (Hero and Puzzle) fought each other whereas Sase, Huk and Verdi fell to Code-S Koreans (Hyun, Gumiho and Jaedong). Without the unlucky mirror we could possibly 3 tosses in the ro8 which would mean a steady decline of ~50% per series.
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL.
Ok.
This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine.
In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill.
Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races.
To add to that, of the 5 all kills in the GSTL, four of them are terran. Of the EU WCS, terran has a ridiculously high advancement rate. Terran is not by any means struggling like this thread sounds. In fact, terran is in a very good spot right now, just like the other races. The game is for the most part balanced (the only spot to keep an eye on right now is terran, yes terran, in TvZ). So small changes to make the game more interesting, such as an incredibly small speed buff to the oracle should be perfectly fine.
The only reason TvZ stats are screwed is because of the WCS QUALIFIERS. Remove them and it is pretty much 50/50. And yes in WCS EU Terrans had a very high advancement rate. But apparently you forgot to mention that zerg had a more players invited. If they would have only invited the best terran/toss EU players and let the zergs do qualifiers they would have had a very high winrate.
On May 03 2013 19:53 Scoobers wrote: In fact I do know how many all ins terran can throw off behind his wall, the answer is zero and even if you do something crazy the nexus cannon wins the game everytime. The biased poster here is you, These are the all ins that P has vs T: 1) proxy oracle 2) DT 3) DT drop 4) voidray allin 5) Blinkstalker allin 6) 4-5gate frontal 7) 4gate prism 8) 3 gate immortal allin And all those are a pain in the butt to hold off even when scouted compared to you just putting on the nexus cannon and feeling fine and dandy. Theyre all amazingly strong, you think theyre crap because you dont have 100% win rate when you do them?
1) easy to scout, no third pylon on main, just one turret to be safe 2) DT one base? Are we in the wol's beta? c'mon 3) if you're referring to the tails build, is not an allin it's a 2 base extremely greedy macro build, if not see #2 4) it's the same as #1 but I know that this may be strong 5) with free siege mode is the same as other allins, just scout it. 6) ??? and when at 6:00 he don't have an expo wtf are you thinking? 7) is on one gas 8) #6
On May 03 2013 19:53 Scoobers wrote: In fact I do know how many all ins terran can throw off behind his wall, the answer is zero and even if you do something crazy the nexus cannon wins the game everytime. The biased poster here is you, These are the all ins that P has vs T: 1) proxy oracle 2) DT 3) DT drop 4) voidray allin 5) Blinkstalker allin 6) 4-5gate frontal 7) 4gate prism 8) 3 gate immortal allin And all those are a pain in the butt to hold off even when scouted compared to you just putting on the nexus cannon and feeling fine and dandy. Theyre all amazingly strong, you think theyre crap because you dont have 100% win rate when you do them?
1) easy to scout, no third pylon on main, just one turret to be safe 2) DT one base? Are we in the wol's beta? c'mon 3) if you're referring to the tails build, is not an allin it's a 2 base extremely greedy macro build, if not see #2 4) it's the same as #1 but I know that this may be strong 5) with free siege mode is the same as other allins, just scout it. 6) ??? and when at 6:00 he don't have an expo wtf are you thinking? 7) is on one gas 8) #6
really pathetic
How exactly do you scout the toss once the stalker gets out? Scan? Then try to pull off your probes at ~4 minutes into the game and let 270 minerals go. Do it versus someone who is executing an early-hitting all-in, see how well does it go for you.
On May 03 2013 19:51 murphs wrote: They can make the oracle move at 100 speed, it still only takes 1 missile turret to be immune. Oh and you get immunity to DTs too.
Terran players really are pathetic.
Proxy oracle can come in your base as early as 5:20. I don't think anyone is worried about later oracles.
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL.
Ok.
This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine.
In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill.
Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races.
To add to that, of the 5 all kills in the GSTL, four of them are terran. Of the EU WCS, terran has a ridiculously high advancement rate. Terran is not by any means struggling like this thread sounds. In fact, terran is in a very good spot right now, just like the other races. The game is for the most part balanced (the only spot to keep an eye on right now is terran, yes terran, in TvZ). So small changes to make the game more interesting, such as an incredibly small speed buff to the oracle should be perfectly fine.
The only reason TvZ stats are screwed is because of the WCS QUALIFIERS. Remove them and it is pretty much 50/50. And yes in WCS EU Terrans had a very high advancement rate. But apparently you forgot to mention that zerg had a more players invited. If they would have only invited the best terran/toss EU players and let the zergs do qualifiers they would have had a very high winrate.
The point is that terran isn't struggling. I think we can both agree on that. This whole string is in response to someone saying protoss is the only race dominating its mirror matchups. I think most sensible people would say the game is within error of being balanced. That said, the oracle is a really cool unit and I think its use will make the game more enjoyable to watch (and play, I love using oracles lategame). In that sense, I think it's worthwhile to give it a little nudge and see if it will be used more often by pro players.
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL.
Ok.
This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine.
In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill.
Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races.
It is actually funny how people are talking about Hurricane all-killing NSH, while we had like 5 Terrans all-killing a lot better teams in the last 2 months. And I am not alluding that Terran is too strong right now, just that it is stupid to say stuff like that, giving one example of some race is doing fine by just looking at one player while there are a lot more examples on their side...
I think that all three races are fine at the pro level. Zerg are doing a bit worse, but I still think that they didn't figure all of the stuff yet, especially the Swarm Hosts.
On May 03 2013 19:51 murphs wrote: They can make the oracle move at 100 speed, it still only takes 1 missile turret to be immune. Oh and you get immunity to DTs too.
Terran players really are pathetic.
Proxy oracle can come in your base as early as 5:20. I don't think anyone is worried about later oracles.
And with that speed buff, those proxy oracles now hit at 5:19. And we definitely don't want to be buffing those all-ins.
On May 03 2013 19:51 murphs wrote: They can make the oracle move at 100 speed, it still only takes 1 missile turret to be immune. Oh and you get immunity to DTs too.
Terran players really are pathetic.
Proxy oracle can come in your base as early as 5:20. I don't think anyone is worried about later oracles.
And with that speed buff, those proxy oracles now hit at 5:19. And we definitely don't want to be buffing those all-ins.
Lol. I just meant to say that you don't have turrets in place at 5:20, smartass :D.
Edit: In fact, there is few builds that I do that don't straight up die to the earliest proxy oracle. That shit really comes fast.
On May 03 2013 19:51 murphs wrote: They can make the oracle move at 100 speed, it still only takes 1 missile turret to be immune. Oh and you get immunity to DTs too.
Terran players really are pathetic.
Proxy oracle can come in your base as early as 5:20. I don't think anyone is worried about later oracles.
And with that speed buff, those proxy oracles now hit at 5:19. And we definitely don't want to be buffing those all-ins.
Lol. I just meant to say that you don't have turrets in place at 5:20, smartass :D.
On May 03 2013 19:53 Scoobers wrote: In fact I do know how many all ins terran can throw off behind his wall, the answer is zero and even if you do something crazy the nexus cannon wins the game everytime. The biased poster here is you, These are the all ins that P has vs T: 1) proxy oracle 2) DT 3) DT drop 4) voidray allin 5) Blinkstalker allin 6) 4-5gate frontal 7) 4gate prism 8) 3 gate immortal allin And all those are a pain in the butt to hold off even when scouted compared to you just putting on the nexus cannon and feeling fine and dandy. Theyre all amazingly strong, you think theyre crap because you dont have 100% win rate when you do them?
1) easy to scout, no third pylon on main, just one turret to be safe 2) DT one base? Are we in the wol's beta? c'mon 3) if you're referring to the tails build, is not an allin it's a 2 base extremely greedy macro build, if not see #2 4) it's the same as #1 but I know that this may be strong 5) with free siege mode is the same as other allins, just scout it. 6) ??? and when at 6:00 he don't have an expo wtf are you thinking? 7) is on one gas 8) #6
really pathetic
1. Yes, because toss can't make a pylon outside their base for any other reason. I agree with how popular it is it generally is a proxy oracle, but in principle they can do any built with a pylon outside their base. 2. Where did he say 1 base? Getting also nexus doesn't take much more time and with planetary nexus it also isn't exactly risky. 3. Or he just means DTs dropped in your base. 4. Wait, a proxy pylon was always an oracle, and now it is suddenly a voidray all-in. 5. On most maps siege mode really isn't going to help you much against blink stalkers. Too large range to cover, so if you use tanks they just get picked of one at a time without doing damage. (Really unless all entry points for blink stalkers are covered by a single siege tank I think you are better of with tanks unsieged). 6. Mainly if you notice that at 6:00 you are a bit late... 7. So? How does that matter? 8. #6
How exactly do you scout the toss once the stalker gets out? Scan? Then try to pull off your probes at ~4 minutes into the game and let 270 minerals go. Do it versus someone who is executing an early-hitting all-in, see how well does it go for you.
A reaper?
If you make stalker and msc, half of those allins will be utterly delayed, I know that cannot be safe and doing an expand based on 2 marines for defense can be scary, but you now, maybe you should take a gayser at 12 every game and don't die by stupid old and not competitive allins?
How exactly do you scout the toss once the stalker gets out? Scan? Then try to pull off your probes at ~4 minutes into the game and let 270 minerals go. Do it versus someone who is executing an early-hitting all-in, see how well does it go for you.
A reaper?
If you make stalker and msc, half of those allins will be utterly delayed, I know that cannot be safe and doing an expand based on 2 marines for defense can be scary, but you now, maybe you should take a gayser at 12 every game and don't die by stupid old and not competitive allins?
Here is what Snowbear wrote about the reaper and you ignored him:
Snowbear wrote: A reaper opening into expand is indeed good for scouting, but after the reaper + expo you have 2 options: - you do like flash, and you make a reactor. Now you have 1 reaper. What if he goes for a stalker mccore push? - you start making marines. You will die against proxy oracle because you will never have enough marines out in time.
So the reaper is actually a coinflippy opening IMO. Please someone tell me I am wrong.
On May 03 2013 19:53 Scoobers wrote: In fact I do know how many all ins terran can throw off behind his wall, the answer is zero and even if you do something crazy the nexus cannon wins the game everytime. The biased poster here is you, These are the all ins that P has vs T: 1) proxy oracle 2) DT 3) DT drop 4) voidray allin 5) Blinkstalker allin 6) 4-5gate frontal 7) 4gate prism 8) 3 gate immortal allin And all those are a pain in the butt to hold off even when scouted compared to you just putting on the nexus cannon and feeling fine and dandy. Theyre all amazingly strong, you think theyre crap because you dont have 100% win rate when you do them?
1) easy to scout, no third pylon on main, just one turret to be safe 2) DT one base? Are we in the wol's beta? c'mon 3) if you're referring to the tails build, is not an allin it's a 2 base extremely greedy macro build, if not see #2 4) it's the same as #1 but I know that this may be strong 5) with free siege mode is the same as other allins, just scout it. 6) ??? and when at 6:00 he don't have an expo wtf are you thinking? 7) is on one gas 8) #6
really pathetic
How exactly do you scout the toss once the stalker gets out? Scan? Then try to pull off your probes at ~4 minutes into the game and let 270 minerals go. Do it versus someone who is executing an early-hitting all-in, see how well does it go for you.
Get better at reading gas timings, the amount of chrono left and pylon counts. Stay active on the map with your reaper and an scv and you can roughly eliminate most of what a toss can do to you. We do it in PvP facing a similar array of all-ins all the time and it's much harder without a reaper to poke with and or scans.
it's not coinflippy, if you use a reaper and don't understand the proxy oracle you should just quit the game because is not for you, and with the early gas you can just do the standard mine drops that's pretty good.
Everyone is using the reaper in TvP, just update your build orders to hots.
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL.
Ok.
This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine.
In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill.
Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races.
To add to that, of the 5 all kills in the GSTL, four of them are terran. Of the EU WCS, terran has a ridiculously high advancement rate. Terran is not by any means struggling like this thread sounds. In fact, terran is in a very good spot right now, just like the other races. The game is for the most part balanced (the only spot to keep an eye on right now is terran, yes terran, in TvZ). So small changes to make the game more interesting, such as an incredibly small speed buff to the oracle should be perfectly fine.
The only reason TvZ stats are screwed is because of the WCS QUALIFIERS. Remove them and it is pretty much 50/50. And yes in WCS EU Terrans had a very high advancement rate. But apparently you forgot to mention that zerg had a more players invited. If they would have only invited the best terran/toss EU players and let the zergs do qualifiers they would have had a very high winrate.
The point is that terran isn't struggling. I think we can both agree on that.
I agree that terran isn't struggling, and I don't think any race is, which is why I am at least happy blizzard isn't doing radical balance changes (I think here burrow change has by far the most chance to have a large impact).
However that every race has a good chance to win doesn't mean yet that everything is fine. For example the ZvZ matchup, in principle it is balanced race wise (since mirror matchup), but the muta wars aren't really ideal. Similary I am not a big fan of the nexus cannon, I wouldn't mind seeing that nerfed. I do realise that you then need adjustments for the other races to compensate.
For example as purely random ideas: Nerf mutas some way (nothing too significant, possibly their move speed). Now nerf planetary nexus a bit for ZvP balance, and to balance the whole thing nerf medivac boost a bit.
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL.
Ok.
This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine.
In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill.
Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races.
To add to that, of the 5 all kills in the GSTL, four of them are terran. Of the EU WCS, terran has a ridiculously high advancement rate. Terran is not by any means struggling like this thread sounds. In fact, terran is in a very good spot right now, just like the other races. The game is for the most part balanced (the only spot to keep an eye on right now is terran, yes terran, in TvZ). So small changes to make the game more interesting, such as an incredibly small speed buff to the oracle should be perfectly fine.
The only reason TvZ stats are screwed is because of the WCS QUALIFIERS. Remove them and it is pretty much 50/50. And yes in WCS EU Terrans had a very high advancement rate. But apparently you forgot to mention that zerg had a more players invited. If they would have only invited the best terran/toss EU players and let the zergs do qualifiers they would have had a very high winrate.
The point is that terran isn't struggling. I think we can both agree on that.
I agree that terran isn't struggling, and I don't think any race is, which is why I am at least happy blizzard isn't doing radical balance changes (I think here burrow change has by far the most chance to have a large impact).
However that every race has a good chance to win doesn't mean yet that everything is fine. For example the ZvZ matchup, in principle it is balanced race wise (since mirror matchup), but the muta wars aren't really ideal. Similary I am not a big fan of the nexus cannon, I wouldn't mind seeing that nerfed. I do realise that you then need adjustments for the other races to compensate.
For example as purely random ideas: Nerf mutas some way (nothing too significant, possibly their move speed). Now nerf planetary nexus a bit for ZvP balance, and to balance the whole thing nerf medivac boost a bit.
and we will return to WoL, then buff infestors so that will be perfect!
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote: So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths. It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL.
Ok.
This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine.
In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill.
Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races.
To add to that, of the 5 all kills in the GSTL, four of them are terran. Of the EU WCS, terran has a ridiculously high advancement rate. Terran is not by any means struggling like this thread sounds. In fact, terran is in a very good spot right now, just like the other races. The game is for the most part balanced (the only spot to keep an eye on right now is terran, yes terran, in TvZ). So small changes to make the game more interesting, such as an incredibly small speed buff to the oracle should be perfectly fine.
The only reason TvZ stats are screwed is because of the WCS QUALIFIERS. Remove them and it is pretty much 50/50. And yes in WCS EU Terrans had a very high advancement rate. But apparently you forgot to mention that zerg had a more players invited. If they would have only invited the best terran/toss EU players and let the zergs do qualifiers they would have had a very high winrate.
The point is that terran isn't struggling. I think we can both agree on that.
I agree that terran isn't struggling, and I don't think any race is, which is why I am at least happy blizzard isn't doing radical balance changes (I think here burrow change has by far the most chance to have a large impact).
However that every race has a good chance to win doesn't mean yet that everything is fine. For example the ZvZ matchup, in principle it is balanced race wise (since mirror matchup), but the muta wars aren't really ideal. Similary I am not a big fan of the nexus cannon, I wouldn't mind seeing that nerfed. I do realise that you then need adjustments for the other races to compensate.
For example as purely random ideas: Nerf mutas some way (nothing too significant, possibly their move speed). Now nerf planetary nexus a bit for ZvP balance, and to balance the whole thing nerf medivac boost a bit.
and we will return to WoL, then buff infestors so that will be perfect!
Ooh I got an idea, double roach HP and range. Then it will definately be another game than WoL.
On May 03 2013 20:37 FrozenProbe wrote: it's not coinflippy, if you use a reaper and don't understand the proxy oracle you should just quit the game because is not for you, and with the early gas you can just do the standard mine drops that's pretty good.
Everyone is using the reaper in TvP, just update your build orders to hots.
Yeah, they use the reaper and die to mcs/stalker(+blink) attacks. I do enjoy the game and I will continue to play, thank you.
I have no idea why are you so vile, perhaps you should take a walk or something.
On May 03 2013 20:37 FrozenProbe wrote: it's not coinflippy, if you use a reaper and don't understand the proxy oracle you should just quit the game because is not for you, and with the early gas you can just do the standard mine drops that's pretty good.
Everyone is using the reaper in TvP, just update your build orders to hots.
Yeah, they use the reaper and die to mcs/stalker(+blink) attacks. I do enjoy the game and I will continue to play, thank you.
I have no idea why are you so vile, perhaps you should take a walk or something.
So you're saying if i see that T has a Reaper, all i have to do is a msc + blink stalker attack to win?
it feels so brutal to play against protoss one base allins.
I actually prefer longterm macro games against toss (with ghosts, vikings, ravens, 20 + rax vs 20 + gates and so on), but it happens so rarely on ladder.
"twighlight council scouted, 3 gates, two gas, i prepar for blink allin" . what happens? siegetank is out, highground bunkers are there. getting owned by proxy darkshrine.
(or he does goes for blink, and owns me even after having bunkers + tanks out on good positions...)
"proxy stargate scouted", 1 stalker comes and saves the stargates pylon from getting killed. T prepares : turret, widowmine, marines at back. what happens? getting 4 gated at the front, not a single oracle was built.
"robo was scouted, robo bay working was scouted" What happens? warp prism with speed + no range colossus drop in mineral line + awsome trollish drop micro with colossus + speed prism.
All those things are not being holdable without exactly knowing that exactly this allin is coming. and thats the big problem.
The problem with the oracle is, that it kills workers even if there are turrets (oracle out range the turret , just put on hold position over the geyser), and it kills them extremely fast. In fact so fast, that it can take 3 shots from the turret,kill 3-4 workers , and retreat, coming back when shield + energy has replenished.
I would be fine with oracle dmg, if it wouldnt have detection. He wipes out my workers with oracles, ok i wipe out his with widowmines.... oht it doesnt work, he wipes out my workers, and then detects my widowmines.
So its a guaranteed dmg device, that also saves him against all scary things that might happen to him in counter (like wm drop, banshee, dt).
On May 03 2013 20:37 FrozenProbe wrote: it's not coinflippy, if you use a reaper and don't understand the proxy oracle you should just quit the game because is not for you, and with the early gas you can just do the standard mine drops that's pretty good.
Everyone is using the reaper in TvP, just update your build orders to hots.
Yeah, they use the reaper and die to mcs/stalker(+blink) attacks. I do enjoy the game and I will continue to play, thank you.
I have no idea why are you so vile, perhaps you should take a walk or something.
So you're saying if i see that T has a Reaper, all i have to do is a msc + blink stalker attack to win?
You should post that in the strategy section.
No. I'm saying that this push is good and has the potential to do damage to a player who chose to go reaper. It is not an auto-win.
"twighlight council scouted, 3 gates, two gas, i prepar for blink allin" . what happens? siegetank is out, highground bunkers are there. getting owned by proxy darkshrine.
(or he does goes for blink, and owns me even after having bunkers + tanks out on good positions...)
If he still crushes you with blink stalkers, your tanks were in horrible positions or you failed to control your units. If you know its coming, its not that hard to defend.
On May 03 2013 20:51 Holo82 wrote: "proxy stargate scouted", 1 stalker comes and saves the stargates pylon from getting killed. T prepares : turret, widowmine, marines at back. what happens? getting 4 gated at the front, not a single oracle was built.
A turret is actually enough. That's a little bit of an overkill right there, don't you think?
On May 03 2013 20:51 Holo82 wrote: "robo was scouted, robo bay working was scouted" What happens? warp prism with speed + no range colossus drop in mineral line + awsome trollish drop micro with colossus + speed prism.
I assume you built vikings after you scouted the robo bay, which would have easily shut this down. Btw. that sounds pretty awesome :D
I like the spore change because I don't like muta v muta, but I dont particularly like th other two. From a spectators standpoint I see that the oracle could become too strong, even though as a Protoss Player I would enjoy it
On May 03 2013 20:37 FrozenProbe wrote: it's not coinflippy, if you use a reaper and don't understand the proxy oracle you should just quit the game because is not for you, and with the early gas you can just do the standard mine drops that's pretty good.
Everyone is using the reaper in TvP, just update your build orders to hots.
Yeah, they use the reaper and die to mcs/stalker(+blink) attacks. I do enjoy the game and I will continue to play, thank you.
I have no idea why are you so vile, perhaps you should take a walk or something.
So you're saying if i see that T has a Reaper, all i have to do is a msc + blink stalker attack to win?
You should post that in the strategy section.
Actually if u do reaper expand as terran, u will not exactly die to ,but loose like 5 -10 workers and all marines u have, if the loveley toss decides to chronoboost a zealot, a stalker, and a msc and move out with this force. The reaper means that 2-3 marines less exists, and you will at the very least get two free supply depots + potential addon from the rax.
If the terran doesnt manage to get rid of the stalker by surrounding it with scvs, and finishing the bunker, he looses the game like 100 % in the first 5 minutes, if the toss comes to the great idea of building a second and a third stalker (with no warpgate, just build and walk into the terrans base, and snipe the poor marines that come out of the rax one by one :D).
Actually i just saw a game in gstl, where a cc first build was killed off by a probe scout... (one probe made the terran use 5 scvs and loose one in the action of defending. the toss than did triple expand, and killed the terran after 12 minutes or so, but he could have just build a couple of stalkers and run up too).
Personally i think terran should be able to build missile turrets without the use of an ebay, its exactly the same as it was for zerg in wol, they couldnt afford a evo chamber as early as DT's come in etc so they make it that they can use spores without the evo, this should be the same for terran imo as getting a ebay at like 5:30 with a gas opener just dosent work out to fit everything else you need, and you cant even tell wtf toss are doing these days.. you scout a robo and all of a sudden DT's or oracles are coming in your base.. seriously...?
On May 03 2013 20:37 FrozenProbe wrote: it's not coinflippy, if you use a reaper and don't understand the proxy oracle you should just quit the game because is not for you, and with the early gas you can just do the standard mine drops that's pretty good.
Everyone is using the reaper in TvP, just update your build orders to hots.
that's a terrible argument. Don't resort to personal attack when you don't have anything to back up your arguments. why not tell us how would you respond if you are the terran after doing the reaper opening?
On May 03 2013 21:03 GGDeMoN wrote: Personally i think terran should be able to build missile turrets without the use of an ebay, its exactly the same as it was for zerg in wol, they couldnt afford a evo chamber as early as DT's come in etc so they make it that they can use spores without the evo, this should be the same for terran imo as getting a ebay at like 5:30 with a gas opener just dosent work out to fit everything else you need, and you cant even tell wtf toss are doing these days.. you scout a robo and all of a sudden DT's or oracles are coming in your base.. seriously...?
As protoss u scout incoming drop, position ur units inside mineral line and still take damage... seriously... ?
On May 03 2013 21:02 Holo82 wrote: Actually if u do reaper expand as terran, u will not exactly die to ,but loose like 5 -10 workers and all marines u have, if the loveley toss decides to chronoboost a zealot, a stalker, and a msc and move out with this force. The reaper means that 2-3 marines less exists, and you will at the very least get two free supply depots + potential addon from the rax.
? No. Reaper reactor expand is safe against pokes, one Bunker highground is enough to stop this and the Reaper can even kill the Zealot coming across the map. Walls are not mandatory, and actually skipping them at the beginning of the game is probably better.
On May 03 2013 21:03 GGDeMoN wrote: Personally i think terran should be able to build missile turrets without the use of an ebay, its exactly the same as it was for zerg in wol, they couldnt afford a evo chamber as early as DT's come in etc so they make it that they can use spores without the evo, this should be the same for terran imo as getting a ebay at like 5:30 with a gas opener just dosent work out to fit everything else you need, and you cant even tell wtf toss are doing these days.. you scout a robo and all of a sudden DT's or oracles are coming in your base.. seriously...?
As protoss u scout incoming drop, position ur units inside mineral line and still take damage... seriously... ?
well then your terrible, if you scout a mine drop you shud lose 1-2 probes MAX and then kill the 2 mines and maybe even the medivac.
On May 03 2013 19:51 murphs wrote: They can make the oracle move at 100 speed, it still only takes 1 missile turret to be immune. Oh and you get immunity to DTs too.
Terran players really are pathetic.
Then I request a banshee at 100 speed, since it only takes 1 turret, 1 spore and 1 cannon to be immune.
6 range vs. 4 range. A single colony/cannon/turret cannot cover a mineral line from a banshee, it can from an oracle.
why no fungal buff against air units?? (fungal should 3shot a muta) would make ling infestor available in ZvZ but would allow to play ling muta bane.. and this buff woud help the zergs against skytoss (i think skytoss isnt op but kinda to ez to play);
On May 03 2013 21:07 FrozenProbe wrote: It's just impossible to talk about balance with terran players.
You're the only one in this thread making a big deal out of this, haha. Some anti-Terran shit got buffed, Terran players are not happy, deal with it...
my experiance as high master/low gm zerg player the main problems seem to be
zvz - mutas zvp - mutas too strong zvp - protoss sitting behind 3 bases and massing voids is a viable strategy / void ray is too strong or zerg anti air is too crap whichever you want to cut it. (not saying you can;t beat it, just saying its tedious as fuck) zvt - hellbats being healed by medivacs
i cant speak of the other matchups but i've heard and seen hellbats being strong in tvt
On May 03 2013 21:02 Holo82 wrote: Actually if u do reaper expand as terran, u will not exactly die to ,but loose like 5 -10 workers and all marines u have, if the loveley toss decides to chronoboost a zealot, a stalker, and a msc and move out with this force. The reaper means that 2-3 marines less exists, and you will at the very least get two free supply depots + potential addon from the rax.
? No. Reaper reactor expand is safe against pokes, one Bunker highground is enough to stop this and the Reaper can even kill the Zealot coming across the map. Walls are not mandatory, and actually skipping them at the beginning of the game is probably better.
Do you really build a highground bunker after reaper expanding? And how do you get the potential zealot, do you scout with scv before the reaper? that makes the whole idea of building a reaper obsolete imo.
On May 03 2013 21:33 monsta wrote: why no fungal buff against air units?? (fungal should 3shot a muta) would make ling infestor available in ZvZ but would allow to play ling muta bane.. and this buff woud help the zergs against skytoss (i think skytoss isnt op but kinda to ez to play);
The problem with fungal against muta is not that it's too weak if you hit, it's actually hitting it (due to projectile and mutas being FAST). You could change this by either making mutas slower (taking speed or acceleration away) or by making fungal projectile speed faster or by returing, heaven forbid, instant fungal. All these options take away micro, which is not good, and the last two option incur the risk of returning the dreaded mass infestor in the non Z matchups. If you have a different idea for a fungal buff that deals with mutas but that also doesn't make infestor a massable unit again, I'm sure many people are all ears.
On May 03 2013 21:02 Holo82 wrote: Actually if u do reaper expand as terran, u will not exactly die to ,but loose like 5 -10 workers and all marines u have, if the loveley toss decides to chronoboost a zealot, a stalker, and a msc and move out with this force. The reaper means that 2-3 marines less exists, and you will at the very least get two free supply depots + potential addon from the rax.
? No. Reaper reactor expand is safe against pokes, one Bunker highground is enough to stop this and the Reaper can even kill the Zealot coming across the map. Walls are not mandatory, and actually skipping them at the beginning of the game is probably better.
Do you really build a highground bunker after reaper expanding? And how do you get the potential zealot, do you scout with scv before the reaper? that makes the whole idea of building a reaper obsolete imo.
On May 03 2013 21:02 Holo82 wrote: Actually if u do reaper expand as terran, u will not exactly die to ,but loose like 5 -10 workers and all marines u have, if the loveley toss decides to chronoboost a zealot, a stalker, and a msc and move out with this force. The reaper means that 2-3 marines less exists, and you will at the very least get two free supply depots + potential addon from the rax.
? No. Reaper reactor expand is safe against pokes, one Bunker highground is enough to stop this and the Reaper can even kill the Zealot coming across the map. Walls are not mandatory, and actually skipping them at the beginning of the game is probably better.
Do you really build a highground bunker after reaper expanding? And how do you get the potential zealot, do you scout with scv before the reaper? that makes the whole idea of building a reaper obsolete imo.
The buty of a reaper expand is that you have basically perfect early game scouting, and on most maps (maybe even all in the current pool? a good Terran sure can comment) it is sufficient to start building the high ground bunker after you scouted the signs for an early poke with your reaper.
I admit that as a Terran, I would trade our Banshee for this buffed Oracle :D And I like banshees, and it's not often that I think other races' units are better.
I think oracle speed should be an upgrade at core for lets say 150/150 so they are not to good in early game but more effective in later stages in game
On May 03 2013 21:55 ZenithM wrote: I admit that as a Terran, I would trade our Banshee for this buffed Oracle :D And I like banshees, and it's not often that I think other races' units are better.
Banshee could probably use some tweaks. I'm always in favor of bringing unused units back. It's probably because Starport is better served for Ubervacs right now.
On May 03 2013 22:07 Zazzles wrote: I think oracle speed should be an upgrade at core for lets say 150/150 so they are not to good in early game but more effective in later stages in game
In later stages of the game there is most likely a turret/spore at each base anyways, so no one would get the upgrade then, I think. I don't think an oracle buff is needed at all (_maybe_ a slight acceleration increase so it's a bit easier to react to a mine in the split second between becoming visible and triggering).
If you are a protoss player and have problems with terran then just do like Maximusblack and do proxy oracle opening in every PvT. Its like 100% win rate lol
- I like the spore crawler buff even if I think the problem with mutawars can be adressed in a better way. - Burrow change might be a bit too much. There will definitely come new cool strategies based on this, but it might be too much, time will tell. 75/75 could have been enough imo. I actually think this buff may have as large an impact as the queen buff. Imo burrow is not used enough and when it is, zerg will become a much bigger threat. - The oracle change is too much. Buff the speed or the acceleration, not both. This forces people to play in a certain way that will be boring to watch after a while.
Right now I only want to see a slight nerf on the radius of the splash damage of the widow mine and that medivacs stop healing hellbats. Then I think the balance is perfect.
The Oracle is just a dumb unit, same as the Banshee. Mobile, flying units with high dps against ground that you can get in the early game are just a bad idea, period, it's pretty much the same problem as with Reapers at the beginning of WoL. Units shouldn't be capable of ignoring defensive positions so easily and dealing so much damage at the same time.
Although it is kind of funny that Terran players cry so much about this, while medivac boost allows them to do the same thing throughout the entire game.
proxy tech is lame, and a unit that more or less encourages proxying is terrible.
recognising that a proxy may be on the map is a skill, but actually FINDING it is luck. and what could it be? could it be a VR all in, proxy immortals, oracles, or even a dark shrine? to the player who is not a professional they can all look pretty darn similar.
On May 03 2013 22:07 Zazzles wrote: I think oracle speed should be an upgrade at core for lets say 150/150 so they are not to good in early game but more effective in later stages in game
In later stages of the game there is most likely a turret/spore at each base anyways, so no one would get the upgrade then, I think. I don't think an oracle buff is needed at all (_maybe_ a slight acceleration increase so it's a bit easier to react to a mine in the split second between becoming visible and triggering).
I would like acceleration just to make the unit a little snappier. The oracle is super quick, but feels kind of sluggish when you use it to attack or switch targets.
How are people so mad about the burrow change? This might make tunneling claws rushes viable, which would be cool to see. Really, the only way You are going to block someone's nat is if they take a late expansion, and in that case they are putting on hyper aggression. To invest in burrow against hyper aggression already means you are taking a huge risk to inflict damage.
On May 03 2013 22:34 People_0f_Color wrote: How are people so mad about the burrow change? This might make tunneling claws rushes viable, which would be cool to see. Really, the only way You are going to block someone's nat is if they take a late expansion, and in that case they are putting on hyper aggression. To invest in burrow against hyper aggression already means you are taking a huge risk to inflict damage.
Well, I can see how you cancel a 1gate expand with zerglings and then block it. But I dont think 1gate PvZ will stay popular anyways, with how much shit it allows Z to do.
Spore- I'm torn on this one. Though I think it would change the ZvZ Meta of ling/muta. It would also make 1-2 spores much more scary when you fly in for your mineral line harass. Though I guess i could live with this one.
Burrow- I think that it is a big drop that would change a lot of early game for all zerg matchups. Though i also think they could change it to 100/50 to receive a similar early game.
Oracle- I think it should get one or the other, not both. Or maybe even have it be an upgrade that you can get not long after being able to build oracles. This buff seems too strong
omg, i can't wait to research burrow first and send a zergling to burrow under where they would wall off. Maybe if I do it early enough I can do it right where they would expand. Finally I might be able to beat terran again
Changes are ok. Spore buff is a hell of a ugly change but i guess it might work. I still doubt roach/hydra will compete with muta ling though. Muta still excel at stopping new bases and they trade fairly well with hydra's still. Burrow change is interesting, i'm always in favor of buffing these small utility spells. 50/50 still makes it a small decision as to when to get it. I doubt any aggressive strats will spawn from this though, it's more likely it will just become a utility upgrade you get every game to delay expansions and save workers/queens. Speaking of which, burrow will probably be quite a nice answer to oracle harass, just burrow drones and then burrow queen after it's about half dead. Oracle is out of energy by that time anyway. Oracle change in itself is fine, the unit could need a small buff. Still stargate in general is a bit poorly designed. It remains quite useless in PvT, you have a harass/scout unit now that is still easily stopped but just super strong when coming as a suprise. Still nothing else at the stargate is of remote use in PvT, phoenixes are lousy at stopping drops and all units are like paper against bio compositions. PvZ oracle is just pretty much insane now, it can run safely from even mutalisks now. Oracle harass should definately be replacing phoenix harass in that matchup, especially if detection might be more crucial. PvP moves even more to stargate openings I guess, DT much less of a risk with this mobility and you can threaten against gateway builds much more by just having an oracle that will wipe their mineral line if they move out. Can't see much reason not to go stargate now, the trick just being what to make from it. It will be sad to see more phoenix mirrors which are 10x worse than muta mirrors.
Muta Wars ZvZ need adjustement for sure, but 45 dmg spore is stupid.
Thats way too much dmg, you cant ever enter a base which has just 1 spore, unless you already have a massive muta count and outplayed him to crap, but how you will do that without harassing him is another question.
Muta will be map control tool only. Definetly a stupid change.
On May 03 2013 22:55 Butterednuts wrote: omg, i can't wait to research burrow first and send a zergling to burrow under where they would wall off. Maybe if I do it early enough I can do it right where they would expand. Finally I might be able to beat terran again
with which build order against which build order? I mean, if you do it of hatch first, a Terran can just put down his expo at the natural from a 1rax, 1rax reaper or CC first opening long before burrow is done. If you do it of a 1base build, you are going 1base without queen. That's only 4units per minute, with the research taking 100seconds... I think in the best case you can come up with some 12-14pool opening get a queen, get the burrow behind it and maybe pull it of against a overly frightened Terran and even that sounds ridiculous to me right now (100seconds research, gas and a delayed natural just to force a scan).
On May 03 2013 22:55 Butterednuts wrote: omg, i can't wait to research burrow first and send a zergling to burrow under where they would wall off. Maybe if I do it early enough I can do it right where they would expand. Finally I might be able to beat terran again
with which build order against which build order? I mean, if you do it of hatch first, a Terran can just put down his expo at the natural from a 1rax, 1rax reaper or CC first opening long before burrow is done. If you do it of a 1base build, you are going 1base without queen. That's only 4units per minute, with the research taking 100seconds... I think in the best case you can come up with some 12-14pool opening get a queen, get the burrow behind it and maybe pull it of against a overly frightened Terran and even that sounds ridiculous to me right now (100seconds research, gas and a delayed natural just to force a scan).
1 hatch burrow. To counter 14CC. Terran can't place his CC at his expand because it's ling blocked. He rages and quits.
Honestly, the spore change does nothing. I am already hesitant to fly my mutas into my opponents base to begin with. They took a "no-fly" zone and made it even more "no-fly" doesn't change the way I (or most people) play ZvZ. You already need lings to deal with spores, this changes nothing.
Burrow change is nice, I'm glad they're doing it with cost instead of reducing research time or something. That being said, I can see burrow denial of Gateway expands in ZvP and that is interesting, probably broken... Personally, I can't justify the 25 minerals+ drone for the extractor and the 3 drones mining gas for a minute to get gas that early just for burrow, Zerg economy is too dependent on minerals in the early game.
Oracles are already annoyingly fast. I don't know if .25 speed really has any effect, but whatever, don't care either way.
All-in-all, these notes are disappointing in the sense that Blizzard seems to be missing the mark as badly as usual where it counts (mutas) and off in lala land where it doesn't (everything else).
the spore buff seems like a band aid. I don't play much zerg, but I can't imagine it will do much to end muta wars. You still have to engate the muta army sooner or later, and there still isn't another unit that can deal with them. How about canging the corruptor instead - probably the most boring unit in the game anyway... hard to go wrong with changing it.
On May 03 2013 22:55 Butterednuts wrote: omg, i can't wait to research burrow first and send a zergling to burrow under where they would wall off. Maybe if I do it early enough I can do it right where they would expand. Finally I might be able to beat terran again
with which build order against which build order? I mean, if you do it of hatch first, a Terran can just put down his expo at the natural from a 1rax, 1rax reaper or CC first opening long before burrow is done. If you do it of a 1base build, you are going 1base without queen. That's only 4units per minute, with the research taking 100seconds... I think in the best case you can come up with some 12-14pool opening get a queen, get the burrow behind it and maybe pull it of against a overly frightened Terran and even that sounds ridiculous to me right now (100seconds research, gas and a delayed natural just to force a scan).
1 hatch burrow. To counter 14CC. Terran can't place his CC at his expand because it's ling blocked. He rages and quits.
This is how new meta is born.
Yeah man, Idra's really going to hate this one!... oh wait, he plays zerg now :D
On May 03 2013 08:36 hereticfurby wrote: Fuck that, Oracle is a bullshit unit, requires infinite scouting time to see if proxied or not, and now it's not even necessary to proxy due to how fast they get from point A-B. Oracles hit before medivacs/Vikings are out and forces a Terran to sacrifice way too much tech options in order to have a chance at defending, and even then it's never enough because you get 3-4gate Stargated and you're absolutely fucked. It's ridiculously hard to be able to scout all that at any time and properly defend at 8 minutes. Not to mention that a Terran can't really do anything until at least 10 minutes because of the Photon overcharge, almost entirely nullifying every early Terran all-in. Zerg has no AA answer unless they forcibly use Spore Crawlers, which sacrifices their economy and tech ridiculously. All-in-all, the Oracle ALREADY causes your opponent to sacrifice WAY too much infrastructure just for POSSIBLE defense, and it is not even guaranteed defense.
Plus if you take really ANY damage from an oracle, since your tech was already heavily delayed, you're playing catch up with a Protoss the entire game, which is bad considering how the 12-14 minute mark is the biggest turning point in a TvP. So you'd be screwed once that time hit and it would be so one sided.
Sounds like my criticism of the Banshee and 1-1-1 in WOL... either way, the Oracle isn't exactly dominating TvP or ZvP in anyway at the moment so buffing it is a good thing.
Sadly, it won't do much because the Oracle is a gimmick. Protoss really needed a powerful mineral only harass unit, like the Speedling or Hellion. What we got was another gas intensive (meaning we can't both build Oracles and tech) coin flip, like the Dark Templar. Either your opponent is prepared or they aren't and since you invested so much gas into the build, if you don't do good damage, you're dead.
On May 03 2013 22:55 Butterednuts wrote: omg, i can't wait to research burrow first and send a zergling to burrow under where they would wall off. Maybe if I do it early enough I can do it right where they would expand. Finally I might be able to beat terran again
with which build order against which build order? I mean, if you do it of hatch first, a Terran can just put down his expo at the natural from a 1rax, 1rax reaper or CC first opening long before burrow is done. If you do it of a 1base build, you are going 1base without queen. That's only 4units per minute, with the research taking 100seconds... I think in the best case you can come up with some 12-14pool opening get a queen, get the burrow behind it and maybe pull it of against a overly frightened Terran and even that sounds ridiculous to me right now (100seconds research, gas and a delayed natural just to force a scan).
1 hatch burrow. To counter 14CC. Terran can't place his CC at his expand because it's ling blocked. He rages and quits.
This is how new meta is born.
Yeah man, Idra's really going to hate this one!... oh wait, he plays zerg now :D
Personally, I see it being most useful vs Zerg.
Rushing 10 Lings into your opponents base only to burrow on the top-side of the ramp is going to be really annoying to deal with if you're even slightly behind. Now you have to invest another 125 minerals into a spore crawler while your opponent is dumping that money into ever more drones/lings.
I already put gas off as late as possible in both ZvP and ZvT, and I won't be changing that over the ability to burrow sooner...
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Mutalisk vs mutalisk could be microed in BW. Also no equivalent to scourge.
I'd love to try and see if burrow can actually deny a gateway expand and see how the oracle does in pvt now, but NOBODY IS PLAYING THE TEST MAP!!! I asked in general and TL chat, but people are like: those are only minor changes, what do you want to test? waste of time... Yet there are a hundred thousand responses in this thread! WTF guys!
I think the problem with Oracle is the gas cost. It's too much for the Protoss to transition into a standard game out of it.. Buffing it might only increase the "i must make massive damage or i'm dead" feeling I already have when building Oracles.
Imo, they should cost less gas and be more useful during the whole early/mid game : slower dps (then faster movement maybe, why not), but still able to pick bio units here and there and thus reward player using them intensively while macroing.
On May 03 2013 23:44 StaraCroft wrote: I'd love to try and see if burrow can actually deny a gateway expand and see how the oracle does in pvt now, but NOBODY IS PLAYING THE TEST MAP!!! I asked in general and TL chat, but people are like: those are only minor changes, what do you want to test? waste of time... Yet there are a hundred thousand responses in this thread! WTF guys!
Sounds like people want to rush and flame stuff without even trying it first, typical.
Not to mention like 50% of this thread is probably composed of the opinions of sub-masters players (Including myself, but I'm not rushing to make any judgement on these changes.)
On May 03 2013 23:46 eXdeath wrote: I think the problem with Oracle is the gas cost. It's too much for the Protoss to transition into a standard game out of it.. Buffing it might only increase the "i must make massive damage or i'm dead" feeling I already have when building Oracles.
Imo, they should cost less gas and be more useful during the whole early/mid game : slower dps (then faster movement maybe, why not), but still able to pick bio units here and there and thus reward player using them intensively while macroing.
You can pretty much do guaranteed damage to reaper openings. Less so if they pull out of gas, but I think you can still make something happen, and if you scout them going fast tech you can invest in phoenix and then transition into phoenix/colossos. Yah, it's a whole lot of gas. Too much to make stargate a standard opening, but not a super coinflippy one either.
On May 03 2013 22:55 Butterednuts wrote: omg, i can't wait to research burrow first and send a zergling to burrow under where they would wall off. Maybe if I do it early enough I can do it right where they would expand. Finally I might be able to beat terran again
with which build order against which build order? I mean, if you do it of hatch first, a Terran can just put down his expo at the natural from a 1rax, 1rax reaper or CC first opening long before burrow is done. If you do it of a 1base build, you are going 1base without queen. That's only 4units per minute, with the research taking 100seconds... I think in the best case you can come up with some 12-14pool opening get a queen, get the burrow behind it and maybe pull it of against a overly frightened Terran and even that sounds ridiculous to me right now (100seconds research, gas and a delayed natural just to force a scan).
1 hatch burrow. To counter 14CC. Terran can't place his CC at his expand because it's ling blocked. He rages and quits.
This is how new meta is born.
Yeah man, Idra's really going to hate this one!... oh wait, he plays zerg now :D
In the future, even his Zerg opponents will have to apologize for playing that race.
On May 03 2013 23:30 Jermstuddog wrote: Honestly, the spore change does nothing. I am already hesitant to fly my mutas into my opponents base to begin with. They took a "no-fly" zone and made it even more "no-fly" doesn't change the way I (or most people) play ZvZ. You already need lings to deal with spores, this changes nothing.
Well, but what if I can go 2base roach creep push to the third and then start to defend my 2entrances of off pure roach/spore? Like, doesn't that sound quite strong? All those ling/bling attacks can be dealt with roach and the area around your 2-3 bases just gets a nogo zone for a player who rushes mutas if spores are strong enough. And from there on you stabilize on 3bases with upgrades and infestors and a stronger engagement army. I actually think that if they get the balancing rigth, this actually could make for very interesting ling/bling/muta mapcontrol vs roach/hydra/infestor play, which then transition into ultras and vipers/swarm hosts respecitvely. I mean, once you hit a certain amount of infestors/hydras you will still be able to shut down mass muta in straight battles. Same for banelings/zerglings with roach/infestor. So I believe all that is needed is the ability to transition into those crucial 3bases fast enough and that is mostly an issue of costefficiency when your opponent comes for your third.
Typical sky is falling bull****, all from Terrans. Listen guys, it will be okay. You can still put reaper aggression to your opponents before they have zerglings, you can still drop the **** out of everyone, you still have your very strong cloaked apm converter that exchanges your 1 apm for ever 5-6 from your opponent. It will be okay. You will survive.
If burrow really becomes too much an issue, they'll probably elongate its research time.
On May 03 2013 23:03 freewareplayer wrote: Muta Wars ZvZ need adjustement for sure, but 45 dmg spore is stupid.
Thats way too much dmg, you cant ever enter a base which has just 1 spore, unless you already have a massive muta count and outplayed him to crap, but how you will do that without harassing him is another question.
Muta will be map control tool only. Definetly a stupid change.
I agree that it is a stupid change (just like the last time they buffed it). To answer the bold--exactly how they do it now. They deny your 3rd and mine more gas because you probably wont have a spore there. Why they won't look at zerg mobile AA is just completely beyond me... even a hydra AA-only vs bio buff would have made more sense.
The overall balance for Heart of the Swarm is in a good place right now
What Hots is blizzard playing?
Muta wars is silly, some units are underused, but I agree with them. Balance is in a very good place. Any race can win vs any other race, better player wins way more often than not.
I'm surprised they would buff oracles over swarm hosts. Out of the new units I certainly see more oracle play.
The most immobile siege units (tanks, SHs) are really hurting in HOTS since armies have become even more mobile than they were in WOL. I would much prefer stronger positional units over stronger proxy cheeses, but maybe that's just me.
Love the burrow and oracle changes. I am hoping the burrow change helps encourage flanking and of course more baneling bombs in the early game. I like the idea of the oracle jetting around and casting revelation in the late game. The early timings will be figured out. I did hope they would make a Swarm Host change though. (Terran here)
I wish they would of buffed Swarm Hosts over anything in this. I try and make them but unless it is against a Terran that found out that his spirit animal is a Turtle and is taking on their characteristics, they just fall short. They are great for breaking down walls but with how mobile armies are now and how available detect is they just get squashed real quick. Trying to Hit-and-Run with them is difficult too.
"Oracles will be near impossible to counter with ground units if the Protoss player micros perfectly. This actually sounds pretty cool and helps differentiate the Oracle from other harass units in the game."
On May 04 2013 00:36 Bagi wrote: I'm surprised they would buff oracles over swarm hosts. Out of the new units I certainly see more oracle play.
The most immobile siege units (tanks, SHs) are really hurting in HOTS since armies have become even more mobile than they were in WOL. I would much prefer stronger positional units over stronger proxy cheeses, but maybe that's just me.
Neither swarm hosts nor oracles need buffs, both are incredibly strong as is. People just need to implement swarm hosts more intelligently. I like, rarely ever see people even attempt to use them, let alone fit them into the metagame efficiently.
(hint: every time that build is scouted in time in the GSL, it's been stopped).
What i have been seeing was more like:
yeah . proxy stargate scouted.probe is killed, pylon is getting chipped away by reaper, while stargate is under construction.
toss says screw this, i dont even cancel it, throw down 3 more gates. not a single oracle beeing produced, as pylon dies. But Protoss is cool to trick terran by sending stalker + 2nd probe to stargate, warp another pylon Terran says : omg need turrets + wm. toss wins with frontal delayed 4 gate because marines + mines are at the back waiting for oracle that was never been built.
The major problem of oracle is that it gives the toss detection, so he doesnt need a robo. the toss opponent has generally no idea which of all the possible allins he will face. The versatility of toss openers is way to big, and they are shady / not easy to scout/ and this is why toss are so strong in all matchups.
Pretty much this. I think the ammount of options Protoss have right now is beyong the ridiculous. You need to scout every corner of the map and have a gooood knowlodge about the game and the P builds to properly scout one of sooo many all ins P can throw at you. And while...they can sit on their base and chill, oh i got a nexus cannon, it's ok. Sorry, but this game is really wrong. Don't know, my 2 cents.
Spore crawlers have to be three times as effective in one matchup? If this sort of a change makes any sort of sense, I think that's a sign that there's a bigger underlying problem.
My vote is that hydras are just too weak. It used to be that Zerg could get around this because their so-called "caster" unit was just an instant, unavoidable AoE nuker, but this is (thankfully) no longer the case in HoTS. But without any form of reliable mobile anti-air, Zerg is forced to respond to air armies with air units of their own, which in ZvZ essentially means that both players must go air.
Not understanding all the people asking for a swarmhost buff. They are uber-powerful as is. What more could you want than a unit that spawns 2 free hydras that can travel 1/3 of a mid-to-large-ish map?
Hard-building more and more cheese into hots, first reapers, then with oracles, then DTs, and now to make sure oracles can ruin the game for low leagues.
On May 04 2013 01:37 Inimic wrote: Hard-building more and more cheese into hots, first reapers, then with oracles, then DTs, and now to make sure oracles can ruin the game for low leagues.
What? Why does everyone call anything other than 5base turtle deathballs cheese? I think by adding in all these earlier units to give openings is a good thing. The turtly "this is the build you do" ending to WoL where you hardly ever had to scout was a tragedy. I stopped laddering out of boredom during that. New openings force scouting and responses, turning SC2 from a laundry list to a strategy game once again.
On May 04 2013 01:37 Inimic wrote: Hard-building more and more cheese into hots, first reapers, then with oracles, then DTs, and now to make sure oracles can ruin the game for low leagues.
What? Why does everyone call anything other than 5base turtle deathballs cheese? I think by adding in all these earlier units to give openings is a good thing. The turtly "this is the build you do" ending to WoL where you hardly ever had to scout was a tragedy. I stopped laddering out of boredom during that. New openings force scouting and responses, turning SC2 from a laundry list to a strategy game once again.
Agreed. Theyr'e just trying to give more options at various points in the game. The oracle change isn't even for early aggression. It's to give more mid to late game maneuverability (and to reward micro, according to blizzard)
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Sincerely, Muta vs Muta doesnt requiere micro man.. i hate mutas in ZvZ i like this changes ....
On May 04 2013 01:37 wUndertUnge wrote: Not understanding all the people asking for a swarmhost buff. They are uber-powerful as is. What more could you want than a unit that spawns 2 free hydras that can travel 1/3 of a mid-to-large-ish map?
I support all 3 changes.
I don't think they need raw damage, but they could be a bit less clunky. The burrow time or the time between burrowing and popping the first locusts could be reduced for example.
On May 04 2013 01:57 Audemed wrote: Buff oracle accel, good, it's really sluggish. Buff speed....no thanks.
This is kind of how I feel. Give it a bit more escapability from my non-stim marine pack with agility not because it just zips around the base at will.
blizz you better; think about this carefully all i ever see are terran nerfs and protoss\zerg buffs...
already the fucking protoss planetary fortress is op; and now you wanna gaurentee at least one oracle in us "terran" players mineral lines every game..
Like the oracle change although as someone said earlier, acceleration is what I'm looking at specifically. I could do without the speed buff but accel. would be a great change.
On May 04 2013 01:37 Inimic wrote: Hard-building more and more cheese into hots, first reapers, then with oracles, then DTs, and now to make sure oracles can ruin the game for low leagues.
What? Why does everyone call anything other than 5base turtle deathballs cheese? I think by adding in all these earlier units to give openings is a good thing. The turtly "this is the build you do" ending to WoL where you hardly ever had to scout was a tragedy. I stopped laddering out of boredom during that. New openings force scouting and responses, turning SC2 from a laundry list to a strategy game once again.
Agreed. Theyr'e just trying to give more options at various points in the game. The oracle change isn't even for early aggression. It's to give more mid to late game maneuverability (and to reward micro, according to blizzard)
If you want oracles to be used as late game damage dealers then you need to make them out-range marines and hydras. And if you do that then they need to move extremely slow while there weapon is active.
In fact that is what I would of done. Give them range 7 but when they activate the weapon reduce the movement speed to 1.85, until it is deactivated.
On May 04 2013 01:37 Inimic wrote: Hard-building more and more cheese into hots, first reapers, then with oracles, then DTs, and now to make sure oracles can ruin the game for low leagues.
What? Why does everyone call anything other than 5base turtle deathballs cheese? I think by adding in all these earlier units to give openings is a good thing. The turtly "this is the build you do" ending to WoL where you hardly ever had to scout was a tragedy. I stopped laddering out of boredom during that. New openings force scouting and responses, turning SC2 from a laundry list to a strategy game once again.
Agreed. Theyr'e just trying to give more options at various points in the game. The oracle change isn't even for early aggression. It's to give more mid to late game maneuverability (and to reward micro, according to blizzard)
If you want oracles to be used as late game damage dealers then you need to make them out-range marines and hydras. And if you do that then they need to move extremely slow while there weapon is active.
In fact that is what I would of done. Give them range 7 but when they activate the weapon reduce the movement speed to 1.85, until it is deactivated.
low range/HP with high speed/damage is fun and what protoss lacks,
there is already a big number of units that have high range/HP but low speed/damage in the protoss army.
On May 04 2013 01:37 Inimic wrote: Hard-building more and more cheese into hots, first reapers, then with oracles, then DTs, and now to make sure oracles can ruin the game for low leagues.
What? Why does everyone call anything other than 5base turtle deathballs cheese? I think by adding in all these earlier units to give openings is a good thing. The turtly "this is the build you do" ending to WoL where you hardly ever had to scout was a tragedy. I stopped laddering out of boredom during that. New openings force scouting and responses, turning SC2 from a laundry list to a strategy game once again.
Agreed. Theyr'e just trying to give more options at various points in the game. The oracle change isn't even for early aggression. It's to give more mid to late game maneuverability (and to reward micro, according to blizzard)
If you want oracles to be used as late game damage dealers then you need to make them out-range marines and hydras. And if you do that then they need to move extremely slow while there weapon is active.
In fact that is what I would of done. Give them range 7 but when they activate the weapon reduce the movement speed to 1.85, until it is deactivated.
low range with more speed and high damage with low health is fun and what protoss lacks,
there is already a big number of units that have high range but are slow with no damage but huge HP in the protoss army.
Very true, but it means the oracle can never be used in a battle in the late game (kind of like reapers I suppose). Therefore, the oracle is a harass unit in the early game and must be relegated to a non combat scouting role in the late game.
The fact that the hellbat and widow mines are both unchanged makes me so angry. Like you never see them in TvP and I haven't seen huge use for them in TvT at pro level other than taking down drops. Then they dominate TvZ and it takes so much less APM to use them but it takes huge APM to counter them. Then add in hellbat drops being the most gimmicky of strategies and you get what TvZ has turned into. Just a gimmickfest where the Zerg makes 1 mistake and then instantly loses. It was kind of all ways a bit unforgiving of a game but its gotten to ridiculous proportions and its not raising the skill cap across the board its just making it incredibly frustrating to play 1 side of a match up.
Buffing spores is the least im worried about balance wise for SC2 currently. It helps but the fact hydra suck so hard is more of what im worried about. Being able to burrow for cheaper just means I can hide the fact my units are worse for a few seconds.
On May 04 2013 01:07 Avril_Lavigne wrote: "Oracles will be near impossible to counter with ground units if the Protoss player micros perfectly. This actually sounds pretty cool and helps differentiate the Oracle from other harass units in the game."
lol blizzard......
Yeah...David Kim has just gone full retard. I like the Oracle in concept as a unit that rewards Protoss for multi-tasking, but no unit should offer so much lethality combined with effective immunity to ground anti air. Blizzard really should've looked into the cost of the Oracle first, then its viability as a support unit that can also be used as harassment into the mid to late game.
On May 04 2013 03:09 FlukyS wrote: The fact that the hellbat and widow mines are both unchanged makes me so angry. Like you never see them in TvP and I haven't seen huge use for them in TvT at pro level other than taking down drops. Then they dominate TvZ and it takes so much less APM to use them but it takes huge APM to counter them. Then add in hellbat drops being the most gimmicky of strategies and you get what TvZ has turned into. Just a gimmickfest where the Zerg makes 1 mistake and then instantly loses. It was kind of all ways a bit unforgiving of a game but its gotten to ridiculous proportions and its not raising the skill cap across the board its just making it incredibly frustrating to play 1 side of a match up.
Buffing spores is the least im worried about balance wise for SC2 currently. It helps but the fact hydra suck so hard is more of what im worried about. Being able to burrow for cheaper just means I can hide the fact my units are worse for a few seconds.
I would disagree with the statement on TvT. Hellbats are used a lot in drops just like in TvZ, and terrans want them nerfed just as bad. Mines are somewhat different. Mines can be abused in where the terran makes stupid amounts everywhere and just a-moves you when you make a mistake. You are forced to save scans and make a raven or 2, where as the other terran doesn't have to. The biggest problem with mines is they make TvT immune to drops, whether it be bio, marine tank or mech drops. pluss 11/11 proxy reapers still win you the game lol.
oh how tvt has gone to shit.
Anyway, I have played the patch map as my offrace, protoss, and my proxy oracles don't die. I was able to build up to 5 without loosing health on any of them, killed 20+ workers on average. You are uncontested going oracles, as I feared. If you see early starport you just mass zealots since terrans ground army will be smaller. and 4 oracles focusing down a turret can kill it before terran goes to repair it.
If you are losing oracles from the speed boost, I have to argue that it is most likely your reaction time is either slow or not realizing when the new acceleration reaches full speed. Also using terran's own buildings against him when running away is essential, with or without oracle buffs.
The Oracle buffs may not seem all that amazing if you make the stargate in your base, the delay per new oracle that reaches the terran base adds up until terran finally has some turrets and a viking. Its the proxy stargate and the growing oracle count that quickly goes out of control. The first oracle is guaranteed to do damage, the 2nd one not as much, but 3 with energy, then a 4th, then a 5th, and its just a gg waiting to happen.
On May 04 2013 01:07 Avril_Lavigne wrote: "Oracles will be near impossible to counter with ground units if the Protoss player micros perfectly. This actually sounds pretty cool and helps differentiate the Oracle from other harass units in the game."
lol blizzard......
Yeah...David Kim has just gone full retard. I like the Oracle in concept as a unit that rewards Protoss for multi-tasking, but no unit should offer so much lethality combined with effective immunity to ground anti air. Blizzard really should've looked into the cost of the Oracle first, then its viability as a support unit that can also be used as harassment into the mid to late game.
i find it hilarious that they didn't think of mutalisks, when they make this comparison LOL
edit: also, blizzard reducing the cost of an excellent upgrade (burrow) to 50/50 is ridiculous. they need to do other things, burrow should not be this cheap for how useful it is
Blizzard clearly doesnt know why ZvZ is the way it is now.... even now when theres a spore crawler people just back away until the have a shit ton of mutas. Increasing the damage won't change anything
On May 04 2013 03:53 skylarr wrote: Blizzard clearly doesnt know why ZvZ is the way it is now.... even now when theres a spore crawler people just back away until the have a shit ton of mutas. Increasing the damage won't change anything
it gives you the option to spore the fuck out of a base and yolo attack with everything. before, it was nearly impossible to win base trade vs Mutalisk, noww it is at least a reaslitic idea
I don't like the spore change at all. I don't like favouring players who turtle hard. My god. I guess Roach/Hydra/Spore will become a composition now...
On May 04 2013 04:00 ZenDeX wrote: They shouldn't touch the game at its current state. What the hell is Blizzard thinking?
that zergs are struggling at a high level, the mirror is a joke becuase they overbuffed the unit for this matchup, but now are unwilling to change it back and so are buffing spores or add a speed/regen upgrade like many zergs have suggested, and oracles are getting shut down pretty easily in the pro leagues
On May 04 2013 03:34 IdrA wrote: he's always been full retard
Not really. Hes slowly made the game more balanced than it ever was. Honestly, you just have issues with losing and often time blame balance rather than your play or choices.
Z has been fine. Need slight buffs here and there, maybe, but theres no "glaring weakness" with any race atm. Anyone can win, if you play right.
Id also say; rather than but a stupid, pointless comment out there, give evidence or shit to back it up to open discussion. Otherwise, dont say anything.
Anyway, I think the oracle buff is nice. Youre really spending a lot to go stargate/oracle, and limiting the speed of your +2 upgrades. It should be rewarding. To say it cant be countered by ground units really isnt true. positioning and static defenses become key. I like the burrow change, would like to see a OL drop cost decrease, as well. Would also like to see a slight Widow nerf, and maybe 25 energy to afterburner... And maybe drop contaminate to 100 energy, or make Overseers a tad cheaper.
AND MAKE OVERSEERS MAINTAIN SWEET SKIN OF OVERLORD TY
oracle speed buff is so not needed. Protoss needs nerfs, not buffs. Why is Blizzard not looking into the nexus cannon? That thing is way too good as it is right now. It effectively makes protoss invincible before the 10 minute mark. It should not last for 60 seconds, 30 seconds at most and its energy cost should be 150. There is no way protoss should be able to throw down 2 nexus cannons.
On May 04 2013 03:53 skylarr wrote: Blizzard clearly doesnt know why ZvZ is the way it is now.... even now when theres a spore crawler people just back away until the have a shit ton of mutas. Increasing the damage won't change anything
it gives you the option to spore the fuck out of a base and yolo attack with everything. before, it was nearly impossible to win base trade vs Mutalisk, noww it is at least a reaslitic idea
Nothing wins against Muta ling baneling with that infestor change
Spore change is ok, but I think they should buff hydra air damage against bio instead. Oracles don't need speed, just aceleration. And burrow change is cool, but seems to drastic. Maybe 75/75 or 100/50... But I have to play some games before saying something on that.
On May 03 2013 14:02 D4V3Z02 wrote: Come on Blizzard, just make burrow like siege.
No kidding.
If burrow didn't require an upgrade they would have never needed to buff queens.
It would be quite funny to have burrow automatically without an upgrade. Send 1 drone to opponent's base at start of the game, burrow where they would wall off at, flood with lings.
I truely cannot believe they just added more +bio to spores <AGAIN>. What a half assed, lazy ass way to deal with a much bigger issue... They already buffed spores and it had no effect on the zvz matchup so they figure maybe they didnt do it enough so lets just do it more this time... So frail. They are deeper issues involved in zvz than simply buffing bio spore damage is gonna fix, how bout maybe taking a look at the games most useless and broken unit that you even admitted was messed up and said you were gonna fix before but have mysteriously forgotten about now --> that being the corruptor. So annoying...
As far as the burrow change, i like it, it gives zerg more early options and more incentive to get a cool racial ability that really everyone should always get, but often forgets. I like this change.
The oracle speed change is blah... kinda boring, we'll have to see how it pans out. My question is though, how about a VR change... that unit is rediculous atm. And no terran changes... interesting DK, interesting...
EDIT: heres a suggestion... No burrow buff, but units dont have burrow until Lair, then it is automatically there. I think that would be cool.
the +bio on spores is their attempt at a fix WITHOUT ALTERING OTHER MATCHUPS... doesn't mean they won't address the issue in other ways if this doesn't work
On May 03 2013 14:02 D4V3Z02 wrote: Come on Blizzard, just make burrow like siege.
No kidding.
If burrow didn't require an upgrade they would have never needed to buff queens.
It would be quite funny to have burrow automatically without an upgrade. Send 1 drone to opponent's base at start of the game, burrow where they would wall off at, flood with lings.
or just put 1 at their expo every game
True enough, but I still would like burrow to be more of an inherent ability than a novelty upgrade.
On May 04 2013 03:34 IdrA wrote: he's always been full retard
Not really. Hes slowly made the game more balanced than it ever was. Honestly, you just have issues with losing and often time blame balance rather than your play or choices.
Z has been fine. Need slight buffs here and there, maybe, but theres no "glaring weakness" with any race atm. Anyone can win, if you play right.
Id also say; rather than but a stupid, pointless comment out there, give evidence or shit to back it up to open discussion. Otherwise, dont say anything.
Anyway, I think the oracle buff is nice. Youre really spending a lot to go stargate/oracle, and limiting the speed of your +2 upgrades. It should be rewarding. To say it cant be countered by ground units really isnt true. positioning and static defenses become key. I like the burrow change, would like to see a OL drop cost decrease, as well. Would also like to see a slight Widow nerf, and maybe 25 energy to afterburner... And maybe drop contaminate to 100 energy, or make Overseers a tad cheaper.
AND MAKE OVERSEERS MAINTAIN SWEET SKIN OF OVERLORD TY
IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another.
Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger.
On May 04 2013 05:06 gamerdude12345 wrote: so was BW a fluke or did they just know how to make a good strategy game back in 1998?
A fluke. Quite similar to how Halo CE/2 were flukes, and turned out to be the best Halo games competitively though community found glitches. Then Bungie pulled a Blizzard and went full retard with Halo 3/Reach, and 343 went pretty full retard with Halo 4 as well.
i find it funny that zergs have to upgrade speed for all their units for like 150/150 or 100/100 yet shit like burrow which has a way larger impact ont he game is being toyed with at 50/50. doesn't make sense. also, terran building armor is 150/150, and i still get it every game. Zergs, you need to be getting burrow every game regardless of the price. I would love building armor at 100/100, would get it before ebay upgrades, lol.
On May 04 2013 05:06 gamerdude12345 wrote: so was BW a fluke or did they just know how to make a good strategy game back in 1998?
A fluke. Quite similar to how Halo CE/2 were flukes, and turned out to be the best Halo games competitively though community found glitches. Then Bungie pulled a Blizzard and went full retard with Halo 3/Reach, and 343 went pretty full retard with Halo 4 as well.
i couldn't agree more with your thoughts on halo ce. i am a former halo ce player, i miss those days so much. i miss HeH, i miss derelict 2v2's, i miss wizard 1v1s soooooooooooooo much !
On May 04 2013 03:34 IdrA wrote: he's always been full retard
Not really. Hes slowly made the game more balanced than it ever was. Honestly, you just have issues with losing and often time blame balance rather than your play or choices.
Z has been fine. Need slight buffs here and there, maybe, but theres no "glaring weakness" with any race atm. Anyone can win, if you play right.
Id also say; rather than but a stupid, pointless comment out there, give evidence or shit to back it up to open discussion. Otherwise, dont say anything.
Anyway, I think the oracle buff is nice. Youre really spending a lot to go stargate/oracle, and limiting the speed of your +2 upgrades. It should be rewarding. To say it cant be countered by ground units really isnt true. positioning and static defenses become key. I like the burrow change, would like to see a OL drop cost decrease, as well. Would also like to see a slight Widow nerf, and maybe 25 energy to afterburner... And maybe drop contaminate to 100 energy, or make Overseers a tad cheaper.
AND MAKE OVERSEERS MAINTAIN SWEET SKIN OF OVERLORD TY
IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another.
Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger.
How can you say the queen buff was good for WoL? It was the end of any harass and we only saw that lame endgame composition with mass infestors, since you couldn't touch a good zerg anymore inearly game. About the oracle: Speed is needed, because if they can't flee from Mutalisks, oracles are kinda useless in PvZ. Furthermore: It's always good if terran is forced to build something else then just MMM, even if it is only a turret and a viking (that's basically all it needs - and the starport is needed anyway, while the stargate is a dead end vs terran).
On May 04 2013 05:32 c0sm0naut wrote: i find it funny that zergs have to upgrade speed for all their units for like 150/150 or 100/100 yet shit like burrow which has a way larger impact ont he game is being toyed with at 50/50. doesn't make sense. also, terran building armor is 150/150, and i still get it every game. Zergs, you need to be getting burrow every game regardless of the price. I would love building armor at 100/100, would get it before ebay upgrades, lol.
Hydra speed and Roach speed are pretty necessary if you plan on using the units for anything more than defense or a nydus all-in. The burrow changes are weird though, I'll grant that.
On May 04 2013 03:34 IdrA wrote: he's always been full retard
Not really. Hes slowly made the game more balanced than it ever was. Honestly, you just have issues with losing and often time blame balance rather than your play or choices.
Z has been fine. Need slight buffs here and there, maybe, but theres no "glaring weakness" with any race atm. Anyone can win, if you play right.
Id also say; rather than but a stupid, pointless comment out there, give evidence or shit to back it up to open discussion. Otherwise, dont say anything.
Anyway, I think the oracle buff is nice. Youre really spending a lot to go stargate/oracle, and limiting the speed of your +2 upgrades. It should be rewarding. To say it cant be countered by ground units really isnt true. positioning and static defenses become key. I like the burrow change, would like to see a OL drop cost decrease, as well. Would also like to see a slight Widow nerf, and maybe 25 energy to afterburner... And maybe drop contaminate to 100 energy, or make Overseers a tad cheaper.
AND MAKE OVERSEERS MAINTAIN SWEET SKIN OF OVERLORD TY
IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another.
Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger.
How can you say the queen buff was good for WoL? It was the end of any harass and we only saw that lame endgame composition with mass infestors, since you couldn't touch a good zerg anymore inearly game. About the oracle: Speed is needed, because if they can't flee from Mutalisks, oracles are kinda useless in PvZ. Furthermore: It's always good if terran is forced to build something else then just MMM, even if it is only a turret and a viking (that's basically all it needs - and the starport is needed anyway, while the stargate is a dead end vs terran).
Why not be open and let the good players test it.
Tbh believe me I like to build other things than MMM vs toss, however they are simply so easy to counter for toss.
And yeah increased queen range was one of the more horrible balance ideas.
On May 04 2013 03:34 IdrA wrote: he's always been full retard
Not really. Hes slowly made the game more balanced than it ever was. Honestly, you just have issues with losing and often time blame balance rather than your play or choices.
Z has been fine. Need slight buffs here and there, maybe, but theres no "glaring weakness" with any race atm. Anyone can win, if you play right.
Id also say; rather than but a stupid, pointless comment out there, give evidence or shit to back it up to open discussion. Otherwise, dont say anything.
Anyway, I think the oracle buff is nice. Youre really spending a lot to go stargate/oracle, and limiting the speed of your +2 upgrades. It should be rewarding. To say it cant be countered by ground units really isnt true. positioning and static defenses become key. I like the burrow change, would like to see a OL drop cost decrease, as well. Would also like to see a slight Widow nerf, and maybe 25 energy to afterburner... And maybe drop contaminate to 100 energy, or make Overseers a tad cheaper.
AND MAKE OVERSEERS MAINTAIN SWEET SKIN OF OVERLORD TY
IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another.
Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger.
How can you say the queen buff was good for WoL? It was the end of any harass and we only saw that lame endgame composition with mass infestors, since you couldn't touch a good zerg anymore inearly game. About the oracle: Speed is needed, because if they can't flee from Mutalisks, oracles are kinda useless in PvZ. Furthermore: It's always good if terran is forced to build something else then just MMM, even if it is only a turret and a viking (that's basically all it needs - and the starport is needed anyway, while the stargate is a dead end vs terran).
Why not be open and let the good players test it.
Tbh believe me I like to build other things than MMM vs toss, however they are simply so easy to counter for toss.
And yeah increased queen range was one of the more horrible balance ideas.
I have always thought increased queen range was one of the best balance changes Blizzard ever did in WoL. It fixed so many problems with the ZvT opening stages. So simple, so effective, that makes it elegant. Unfortunately, it also revealed the shitty state of the game in general... so there's that.
I didn't buy HotS until about 2 weeks ago because of the way Blizzard attempts to balance the game, the thing that convinced me was watching streams and seeing that somehow, Blizzard seems to have lucked out, and their pile of shit they added on top of the pile of shit that was WoL somehow worked out to be well balanced, so I figured I'd finally get on the bus.
I'm sad to see they continue down the road of stupid, hair-brained balance schemes. There are so many deep issues that, if resolved, would give SC2 that epic feel. But Blizzard doesn't want to rework the game from the ground up, so they put these stupidly broke mechanics in this untouchable pedestal and balance around them ARGH!!!!
Oh well, here's to hoping the game stays relatively balanced because I don't think they'll ever address the core issues...
On May 04 2013 03:34 IdrA wrote: he's always been full retard
Not really. Hes slowly made the game more balanced than it ever was. Honestly, you just have issues with losing and often time blame balance rather than your play or choices.
Z has been fine. Need slight buffs here and there, maybe, but theres no "glaring weakness" with any race atm. Anyone can win, if you play right.
Id also say; rather than but a stupid, pointless comment out there, give evidence or shit to back it up to open discussion. Otherwise, dont say anything.
Anyway, I think the oracle buff is nice. Youre really spending a lot to go stargate/oracle, and limiting the speed of your +2 upgrades. It should be rewarding. To say it cant be countered by ground units really isnt true. positioning and static defenses become key. I like the burrow change, would like to see a OL drop cost decrease, as well. Would also like to see a slight Widow nerf, and maybe 25 energy to afterburner... And maybe drop contaminate to 100 energy, or make Overseers a tad cheaper.
AND MAKE OVERSEERS MAINTAIN SWEET SKIN OF OVERLORD TY
IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another.
Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger.
How can you say the queen buff was good for WoL? It was the end of any harass and we only saw that lame endgame composition with mass infestors, since you couldn't touch a good zerg anymore inearly game. About the oracle: Speed is needed, because if they can't flee from Mutalisks, oracles are kinda useless in PvZ. Furthermore: It's always good if terran is forced to build something else then just MMM, even if it is only a turret and a viking (that's basically all it needs - and the starport is needed anyway, while the stargate is a dead end vs terran).
Why not be open and let the good players test it.
Tbh believe me I like to build other things than MMM vs toss, however they are simply so easy to counter for toss.
And yeah increased queen range was one of the more horrible balance ideas.
I have always thought increased queen range was one of the best balance changes Blizzard ever did in WoL. It fixed so many problems with the ZvT opening stages. So simple, so effective, that makes it elegant. Unfortunately, it also revealed the shitty state of the game in general... so there's that.
I didn't buy HotS until about 2 weeks ago because of the way Blizzard attempts to balance the game, the thing that convinced me was watching streams and seeing that somehow, Blizzard seems to have lucked out, and their pile of shit they added on top of the pile of shit that was WoL somehow worked out to be well balanced, so I figured I'd finally get on the bus.
I'm sad to see they continue down the road of stupid, hair-brained balance schemes. There are so many deep issues that, if resolved, would give SC2 that epic feel. But Blizzard doesn't want to rework the game from the ground up, so they put these stupidly broke mechanics in this untouchable pedestal and balance around them ARGH!!!!
Oh well, here's to hoping the game stays relatively balanced because I don't think they'll ever address the core issues...
On May 04 2013 05:06 gamerdude12345 wrote: so was BW a fluke or did they just know how to make a good strategy game back in 1998?
A fluke. Quite similar to how Halo CE/2 were flukes, and turned out to be the best Halo games competitively though community found glitches. Then Bungie pulled a Blizzard and went full retard with Halo 3/Reach, and 343 went pretty full retard with Halo 4 as well.
It wasn't a fluke and neither was Halo. There are many examples like this (BW, Halo, Diablo2, Morrowind.....) Back then companies tried to do the best games they could in the specific genre. Nowdays, everyone tries to appeal to a broad market, and so compromises arise left and right. Generally games tend to improve tech wise, and loose in depth.
So how have the games played out for everyone on the test map so far? I haven't ran into any ZvZs yet so I don't know much about the spore buff. With the burrow upgrade, I do find myself grabbing it a little bit earlier, but it doesn't feel that different since I usually got it anyway. It kind of reminds me of the protoss upgrades that had a tiny cost decrease. The only real difference I am finding is I just have an extra 50/50 in the midgame, which at that point isn't much anyway. So my personal feeling is that the burrow upgrade is probably going to mainly useful for either early game defense or early game all-ins, neither of which I would get burrow for so I'm not exactly the best test of that buff either.
The oracle feels the same as far as control (so the acceleration buff matches the speed buff). I do notice the speed increase, but it definitely isn't that much. When the Overlord speed was buffed, that was very noticeable right away. This more feels like these units are a little bit faster, but that's because I use them quite a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if most people don't even notice the speed change.
Hopefully we can redirect the discussion from "protoss will be broken with this buff" to "I've seen the upgrade in action, and..."
On May 04 2013 05:06 gamerdude12345 wrote: so was BW a fluke or did they just know how to make a good strategy game back in 1998?
A fluke. Quite similar to how Halo CE/2 were flukes, and turned out to be the best Halo games competitively though community found glitches. Then Bungie pulled a Blizzard and went full retard with Halo 3/Reach, and 343 went pretty full retard with Halo 4 as well.
It wasn't a fluke and neither was Halo. There are many examples like this (BW, Halo, Diablo2, Morrowind.....) Back then companies tried to do the best games they could in the specific genre. Nowdays, everyone tries to appeal to a broad market, and so compromises arise left and right. Generally games tend to improve tech wise, and loose in depth.
LOL yeah, they definitely foresaw things like muta stacking and balanced the game around it.
BW balance was part luck, part KR scene balancing it through maps and part an impossibly high skill ceiling.
Really, you don't even need a truly balanced game as long as you make playing it perfectly impossibly difficult.
On May 04 2013 05:06 gamerdude12345 wrote: so was BW a fluke or did they just know how to make a good strategy game back in 1998?
A fluke. Quite similar to how Halo CE/2 were flukes, and turned out to be the best Halo games competitively though community found glitches. Then Bungie pulled a Blizzard and went full retard with Halo 3/Reach, and 343 went pretty full retard with Halo 4 as well.
It wasn't a fluke and neither was Halo. There are many examples like this (BW, Halo, Diablo2, Morrowind.....) Back then companies tried to do the best games they could in the specific genre. Nowdays, everyone tries to appeal to a broad market, and so compromises arise left and right. Generally games tend to improve tech wise, and loose in depth.
Really, you don't even need a truly balanced game as long as you make playing it perfectly impossibly difficult.
This is what "real" sports are all about, so maybe BW was on to something.
IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another. Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger.
The overlord buff and queen buff destroyed WOL competitiveness and fun for the rest of its lifespan. If those are your go to examples than there is a good reason not to listen to Idra ever again.
I like the spore buff, but I'm think there's a fine line between mutas being OP as shit and mutas being useless in ZvZ, hopefully this change will help strike this balance.
I LOVE the oracle buff. Right now the oracle is virtually worthless, beyond surprise early harass. The speed change should make it possible to use it for multi-pronged attacks/harass (right now it's too easy to catch and kill). It should also extend the utility of the Oracle to later in the game (right now the oracle is basically worthless past 8 minutes).
I'm not too sure about the burrow change, but let's see how it goes!
I dont know whats going on in the other Servers,but actually in EU there is no way to test the map. It is there,but no one is testing it REALLY!!! I am there and wait like 15 mins to anybody show up and nothing... The actual state of "Custom Game" is just stupid.Come on,you cant even "quit"!!! If you enter and there is a player with the wrong race, you just CANT GO OUT or stop the countdown.How are they expecting people to test anything? I think there must be various maps open with some kind of description like: "ZvZ only" or "TvP only" and before enter the lobby you could be able to see who is there: T,Z or P.So you know if you wanna enter.If this is not possible,at least make possible to quit the lobby not being forced to log out every time...
On May 04 2013 05:06 gamerdude12345 wrote: so was BW a fluke or did they just know how to make a good strategy game back in 1998?
A fluke. Quite similar to how Halo CE/2 were flukes, and turned out to be the best Halo games competitively though community found glitches. Then Bungie pulled a Blizzard and went full retard with Halo 3/Reach, and 343 went pretty full retard with Halo 4 as well.
It wasn't a fluke and neither was Halo. There are many examples like this (BW, Halo, Diablo2, Morrowind.....) Back then companies tried to do the best games they could in the specific genre. Nowdays, everyone tries to appeal to a broad market, and so compromises arise left and right. Generally games tend to improve tech wise, and loose in depth.
BW balance was part luck, part KR scene balancing it through maps and part an impossibly high skill ceiling.
Really, you don't even need a truly balanced game as long as you make playing it perfectly impossibly difficult.
And this is why I think Blizzard blew it with the Nexus Cannon. Did Protoss need some help early game? Sure... but why did it have to be in the form a skilless ability? At least Forcefields take some some skill.
I'm not at all sure how anti-air in ZvZ is a "problem", but it's supposedly fine in other match-ups. The spore buff will make muta harass non-existant. And without harass, well, I guess we're just not supposed to build mutas anymore in ZvZ.
I don't mind that personally, it's never been my style, but I'm not sure how it's making things balanced. If a Zerg is behind in mutas, they can already build spores and queens and put up good defense. This change just seems an unnecessary way to force players into NOT using a certain unit in a certain match-up.
And while Zerg is struggling against mass-muta, what makes them think the other match-ups' air-units are any less overwhelming or demanding against Zerg? Airtoss, with just a couple of Colossi added, is probably the most impossible deathball for Zerg to deal with, of any race, because Corrupters suck against VoidRays, and the Colossi melt the Hydras, leaving Zerg with very little options at all, if any.
In fact, we see all the time Zerg building mutas against an Airtoss with phoenix even though they shouldn't, because the other options are so underwhelming and so easily hard-countered that the Zerg feels mass-muta is the only real anti-Airtoss. Mid-game phoenix harass is every bit as annoying as mid-game muta harass, only phoenix has the added benefit of forcing Zerg into making units that the Protoss can then hard-counter.
Right there, maybe, exists a real balance problem, and I know I'm not alone in feeling that.
This spore-muta thing isn't a balance problem. I'm not even sure it's something that's going to last in the pro-meta anyways. But rather than let players deal with this strategy in creative ways, Blizz is just giving Zerg a big anti-muta buff to try to force their hand.
On May 04 2013 08:58 Leporello wrote: I'm not at all sure how anti-air in ZvZ is a "problem", but it's supposedly fine in other match-ups. The spore buff will make muta harass non-existant. And without harass, well, I guess we're just not supposed to build mutas anymore in ZvZ.
I don't mind that personally, it's never been my style, but I'm not sure how it's making things balanced. If a Zerg is behind in mutas, they can already build spores and queens and put up good defense. This change just seems an unnecessary way to force players into NOT using a certain unit in a certain match-up.
And while Zerg is struggling against mass-muta, what makes them think the other match-ups' air-units are any less overwhelming or demanding against Zerg? Airtoss, with just a couple of Colossi added, is probably the most impossible deathball for Zerg to deal with, of any race, because Corrupters suck against VoidRays, and the Colossi melt the Hydras, leaving Zerg with very little options at all, if any.
In fact, we see all the time Zerg building mutas against an Airtoss with phoenix even though they shouldn't, because the other options are so underwhelming and so easily hard-countered that the Zerg feels mass-muta is the only real anti-Airtoss. Mid-game phoenix harass is every bit as annoying as mid-game muta harass, only phoenix has the added benefit of forcing Zerg into making units that the Protoss can then hard-counter.
Right there, maybe, exists a real balance problem, and I know I'm not alone in feeling that.
This spore-muta thing isn't a balance problem. I'm not even sure it's something that's going to last in the pro-meta anyways. But rather than let players deal with this strategy in creative ways, Blizz is just giving Zerg a big anti-muta buff to try to force their hand.
Airtoss with collosi actually gets destroyed by hydra/viper. The scary protoss army is high templar/skytoss/archon, which is unbelievably gas intensive. So far in competitive play, I haven't seen many dominating skytoss compositions, it's just so hard to get there. Life, for example, has ripped everyone apart that has gone for such a build with ling runbys and early hydra/viper attacks. Maybe in the future protoss will figure out an easy way to make such a composition work, but for now it isn't an issue.
That burrow change is really the only gripe of mine. I think the oracle change will only affect really high-level play if that, and the spore change is completely necessary. Muta battles are total bullshit to watch and play.
On May 03 2013 08:24 convention wrote: Why does the oracle change receive so much negative feedback? I don't recall seeing any oracles in the GSL yet, I rarely see them in other tournaments. The speed buff does not help with all-ins (who cares if you saved your two oracles when you have no army and are down 15 workers). It is an incredibly micro-intensive unit. Don't we want those units to be viable?
Why blame yourself for a loss when you can blame a unit?
I don't think the spore buff will really change much. It is possible to transition out of Muta/Ling. I hope they just give players time to figure out how to get out of this unit composition earlier, or come up with a decent strategy that can hold its own against Mutas.
The burrow change doesn't really make any sense to me, but hopefully it really will encourage new and exciting play.
I like the oracle change. As stated in their justification, one turret/spore,cannon completely nullifies an oracle.
Overall, I think they are all decent changes. However, I wish they would do something with widow mines. They just feel too easy to use at this point.
I feel like this speed buff, coupled with a range increase and a significant damage decrease will make the unit more exciting and more microable than just the speed increase.
Can the new Oracle speed move out of window mine range with the timing delay? If so I think this change is ridiculous. There is very little Terrans can do to avoid early harass; it already takes 5 marines to kill one Oracle.
IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another. Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger.
The overlord buff and queen buff destroyed WOL competitiveness and fun for the rest of its lifespan. If those are your go to examples than there is a good reason not to listen to Idra ever again.
I'd say the Queen buff had a much bigger impact than the Overlord buff. The Overlord buff seemed much tamer and more reasonable in comparison.
making static defence so strong has to be bad game design. i mean come on... 'sporing up' is not the starcraft I wanna be playing just like the spine forests of WoL were stupid...
On May 04 2013 13:38 SirPinky wrote: Can the new Oracle speed move out of window mine range with the timing delay? If so I think this change is ridiculous. There is very little Terrans can do to avoid early harass; it already takes 5 marines to kill one Oracle.
On May 04 2013 13:38 SirPinky wrote: Can the new Oracle speed move out of window mine range with the timing delay? If so I think this change is ridiculous. There is very little Terrans can do to avoid early harass; it already takes 5 marines to kill one Oracle.
On May 04 2013 13:38 SirPinky wrote: Can the new Oracle speed move out of window mine range with the timing delay? If so I think this change is ridiculous. There is very little Terrans can do to avoid early harass; it already takes 5 marines to kill one Oracle.
6 marines.
But now you can just avoid them.
They were already 50% faster than marines, and equal speed once they were stimmed. Playing with oracles I don't mind the acceleration change, but I think the speed change is totally unnecessary.
On May 04 2013 16:45 masaker wrote: Oracle changes should look like - add 10 hp and 10 shields (maybe more), or add speed and decrease its HP and Shields.
Burrow change. Llittle buff agree with it. Nothing too scary. They just want to add early game tactic which Zerg needs.
Spore Crawler looks ok but we will see.
I don't think we should add hp and shields to the oracle. The idea behind the unit is something that has high potential but is very hard to use (kind of like phoenixes). And so I think it should be kept with low hp to punish people when they are a little too cavalier with the unit, but it should have high enough speed that people who have the ultimate minimap awareness (Rain, Parting, Creator come to mind) are able to never lose a single oracle. Currently it won't matter, it just isn't fast enough to escape a lot of situations. The minor speed buff will allow it get away from all units (I think?) if you react very quickly, but it will still die really fast if you react too slowly.
Making fungal able to stop life regen for a while, including general zerg regen, burrowed roach regen, muta regen, medivac healing, SCV repair, protoss shield regen, will be more interesting!
On May 04 2013 05:06 gamerdude12345 wrote: so was BW a fluke or did they just know how to make a good strategy game back in 1998?
A fluke. Quite similar to how Halo CE/2 were flukes, and turned out to be the best Halo games competitively though community found glitches. Then Bungie pulled a Blizzard and went full retard with Halo 3/Reach, and 343 went pretty full retard with Halo 4 as well.
It wasn't a fluke and neither was Halo. There are many examples like this (BW, Halo, Diablo2, Morrowind.....) Back then companies tried to do the best games they could in the specific genre. Nowdays, everyone tries to appeal to a broad market, and so compromises arise left and right. Generally games tend to improve tech wise, and loose in depth.
LOL yeah, they definitely foresaw things like muta stacking and balanced the game around it.
BW balance was part luck, part KR scene balancing it through maps and part an impossibly high skill ceiling.
Really, you don't even need a truly balanced game as long as you make playing it perfectly impossibly difficult.
Forget that. Just think, it took til 2005 for people to discover the whole concept of Macro. At the same tiem, they were building off of the dune model.
I am not a fan of the proposed changes to spores. It is an ugly way to attempt to balance the muta that doesn't address zerg's weak anti air, something that is a potential problem in zvp.
It also promotes very turtly play, as it becomes more difficult for a muta player to actually go into the no fly zone of the opposing base.
I personally quite like muta v muta zvz as it was at least more interesting then zvz roach wars and late wol zvz. I'm hoping that if this change goes through that the matchup doesn't revert to that boring stuff.
On May 04 2013 17:09 convention wrote: I don't think we should add hp and shields to the oracle. The idea behind the unit is something that has high potential but is very hard to use (kind of like phoenixes). And so I think it should be kept with low hp to punish people when they are a little too cavalier with the unit, but it should have high enough speed that people who have the ultimate minimap awareness (Rain, Parting, Creator come to mind) are able to never lose a single oracle. Currently it won't matter, it just isn't fast enough to escape a lot of situations. The minor speed buff will allow it get away from all units (I think?) if you react very quickly, but it will still die really fast if you react too slowly.
Its already as fast or faster than every terran unit except a boosted medivac.
I feel the burrow change is quite dumb since the game is young and people haven't experimented enough. A 100/100 upgrade is still very cheap to implement into early game shenanigans.
Blizzard should just give it some time is what I'm saying here.
On May 04 2013 13:38 SirPinky wrote: Can the new Oracle speed move out of window mine range with the timing delay? If so I think this change is ridiculous. There is very little Terrans can do to avoid early harass; it already takes 5 marines to kill one Oracle.
6 marines.
But now you can just avoid them.
They were already 50% faster than marines, and equal speed once they were stimmed. Playing with oracles I don't mind the acceleration change, but I think the speed change is totally unnecessary.
The acceleration is what makes the oracle so damn better now though as it was really slow to start to attack something. Basically the workers were already out of range before it had stopped to kill them, so you had to fly over the workers. Now it is way easier to chase down units. Also I think I am getting one more Marine then usual now due to this, but this might be bad control of my test victim.
On May 04 2013 19:31 c0se wrote: Terran players should all stop researching stimpack, by blizzards logic it needs to be buffed then. Same goes for warpgate tech.
The problem is: One terran breraks your rule and goes on to win tournaments and sweet money until the rest follow suit. That is also the main flaw of your arguement: Oracles do not see much play, because there is a conspiration to not buiold them, but because they are a dead end, an all-in play. And they are a bad all in at that. Vs. Zerg you build oracles, he is more than happy because he is going Mutas anyway, killing your puny harass unit and you some minutes after. Vs. Terran you invest a minimum of 300 gas, hoping you can kill a SCV. If you fail to do massive damage, you are stuck with a stargate, while the terran gets ready to move out with his MMM to crush your supportless gateway residual army.
That is the big difference between Mutas and MMM on the one side, and oracles on the other: The first 2 are useful for fights, oracle is not.
On May 03 2013 18:12 FrozenProbe wrote: Terrans that are whining on the oracle are pathetic, they play one matchup (yes, the mirror matchup) where they just drop battle hellions for the entire game and kill 50 scvs a game (at least), even with turrets or tanks on defense and now they whine about an oracle?
1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting
Hehe, I wonder how you would feel if banshees would show up in your base at 5 min instead of 7. It is not just about the unit, but also how fast it gets to your base and what can you possibly have to defend by that time
On May 04 2013 03:34 IdrA wrote: he's always been full retard
Not really. Hes slowly made the game more balanced than it ever was. Honestly, you just have issues with losing and often time blame balance rather than your play or choices.
Not really. He slowly made the game into "no-rush-20 min" into deathball vs. deathball fight in the end. He also ruined TvZ after finnaly achieving balance (TvZ after ghost nerf - balanced as it could ever be, TvZ after queen buff - broken again)
On May 04 2013 13:38 SirPinky wrote: Can the new Oracle speed move out of window mine range with the timing delay? If so I think this change is ridiculous. There is very little Terrans can do to avoid early harass; it already takes 5 marines to kill one Oracle.
6 marines.
But now you can just avoid them.
Not if you want to kill workers.
6 marines = 300 minerals, built from barracks 150 (or reactored, 200/50), no prerequisits 1 oracle = 150 minerals, 150 gas, built from startgate 150/150, need gateway and cybernetics core to build.
I don't quite get the complaining about the oracle. Compare it to widow mine harass where a widow mine can take out 13 probes in one shot, it's way easier and more forgiving to defend. To defend against widow mines, you need lots of stalkers (with blink) or some stalkers and an observer.
On May 04 2013 03:34 IdrA wrote: he's always been full retard
Not really. Hes slowly made the game more balanced than it ever was. Honestly, you just have issues with losing and often time blame balance rather than your play or choices.
Z has been fine. Need slight buffs here and there, maybe, but theres no "glaring weakness" with any race atm. Anyone can win, if you play right.
Id also say; rather than but a stupid, pointless comment out there, give evidence or shit to back it up to open discussion. Otherwise, dont say anything.
Anyway, I think the oracle buff is nice. Youre really spending a lot to go stargate/oracle, and limiting the speed of your +2 upgrades. It should be rewarding. To say it cant be countered by ground units really isnt true. positioning and static defenses become key. I like the burrow change, would like to see a OL drop cost decrease, as well. Would also like to see a slight Widow nerf, and maybe 25 energy to afterburner... And maybe drop contaminate to 100 energy, or make Overseers a tad cheaper.
AND MAKE OVERSEERS MAINTAIN SWEET SKIN OF OVERLORD TY
IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another.
Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger.
How can you say the queen buff was good for WoL? It was the end of any harass and we only saw that lame endgame composition with mass infestors, since you couldn't touch a good zerg anymore inearly game. About the oracle: Speed is needed, because if they can't flee from Mutalisks, oracles are kinda useless in PvZ. Furthermore: It's always good if terran is forced to build something else then just MMM, even if it is only a turret and a viking (that's basically all it needs - and the starport is needed anyway, while the stargate is a dead end vs terran).
Why not be open and let the good players test it.
Tbh believe me I like to build other things than MMM vs toss, however they are simply so easy to counter for toss.
And yeah increased queen range was one of the more horrible balance ideas.
I have always thought increased queen range was one of the best balance changes Blizzard ever did in WoL. It fixed so many problems with the ZvT opening stages. So simple, so effective, that makes it elegant. Unfortunately, it also revealed the shitty state of the game in general... so there's that.
I didn't buy HotS until about 2 weeks ago because of the way Blizzard attempts to balance the game, the thing that convinced me was watching streams and seeing that somehow, Blizzard seems to have lucked out, and their pile of shit they added on top of the pile of shit that was WoL somehow worked out to be well balanced, so I figured I'd finally get on the bus.
I'm sad to see they continue down the road of stupid, hair-brained balance schemes. There are so many deep issues that, if resolved, would give SC2 that epic feel. But Blizzard doesn't want to rework the game from the ground up, so they put these stupidly broke mechanics in this untouchable pedestal and balance around them ARGH!!!!
Oh well, here's to hoping the game stays relatively balanced because I don't think they'll ever address the core issues...
If there was a problem with attacks before 150 supply, yes the queen buff sure stopped that problem... I just don't know how anyone could think that buff was good, it was the worst balance fix I've ever seen in a MU that was pretty balanced already. The speedovies would've already fulfilled the scouting issue zergs were complaining about. Since T/P can't just make workers they could before trade their early units for drones(or force units instead of drones from the Z), which kept them in the game. After the buff you just had to go YOLO and be as greedy as possible hoping to reach similar worker count as the Z when he stops droning. NR15 is pretty damn boring. Concerning idra, when Blizzard announced the +2 range buff of Queens, even he said "yeah that's pretty good", which should've raised a lot of alarm bells for sensible people.
I'm interested what can blizzard really do to balance ZvZ muta wars? It just seems to me if Zerg1 has higher muta count than Zerg2, and Zerg2 makes enough spores to defend against Zerg1, Zerg1 will just get more bases and be far ahead both due to the investment in static defenses aswell as the map control the higher muta flock brings.
On May 04 2013 23:04 Zarahtra wrote: I'm interested what can blizzard really do to balance ZvZ muta wars? It just seems to me if Zerg1 has higher muta count than Zerg2, and Zerg2 makes enough spores to defend against Zerg1, Zerg1 will just get more bases and be far ahead both due to the investment in static defenses aswell as the map control the higher muta flock brings.
That was already the situation in WoL ZvZ, where muta openings would be amongst the most popular builds and often just grant a faster third base. Point was however, that you could invest into other things instead of bases and get ahead in a different category (like upgrades, infestor and roach count) which the opponent would have to equalice himself, as "just massing mutas" eventually got bad. I think that should be the goal: Put (mass) mutalisks on a clock where you have to transition into something else to win (in the longrun).
On May 04 2013 13:38 SirPinky wrote: Can the new Oracle speed move out of window mine range with the timing delay? If so I think this change is ridiculous. There is very little Terrans can do to avoid early harass; it already takes 5 marines to kill one Oracle.
6 marines.
But now you can just avoid them.
Not if you want to kill workers.
6 marines = 300 minerals, built from barracks 150 (or reactored, 200/50), no prerequisits 1 oracle = 150 minerals, 150 gas, built from startgate 150/150, need gateway and cybernetics core to build.
I don't quite get the complaining about the oracle. Compare it to widow mine harass where a widow mine can take out 13 probes in one shot, it's way easier and more forgiving to defend. To defend against widow mines, you need lots of stalkers (with blink) or some stalkers and an observer.
It's very, very rare that you'll get more than 6 combined probes with a widow mine (2x) drop. The power obviously increases the more you catch Protoss off guard, but that's the same for oracles.
On May 04 2013 17:09 convention wrote: I don't think we should add hp and shields to the oracle. The idea behind the unit is something that has high potential but is very hard to use (kind of like phoenixes). And so I think it should be kept with low hp to punish people when they are a little too cavalier with the unit, but it should have high enough speed that people who have the ultimate minimap awareness (Rain, Parting, Creator come to mind) are able to never lose a single oracle. Currently it won't matter, it just isn't fast enough to escape a lot of situations. The minor speed buff will allow it get away from all units (I think?) if you react very quickly, but it will still die really fast if you react too slowly.
Its already as fast or faster than every terran unit except a boosted medivac.
At its current speed, actually not. The oracle with its current 3.375 speed is equal in speed to stimmed marines and marauders; reapers, hellions, and medivacs with afterburners are faster than it. Increasing the speed to 4 makes it faster than everything Terran except the hellions and boosted medivacs.
On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote: lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch
I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff).
On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote: lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch
I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff).
I can't believe you even want to debate the patch that basically began to kill sc2 from a viewers standpoint
On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote: lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch
I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff).
No, he is right. That was probably the worst time in history of Sc2 TvZ. Blizzard turned an exciting matchup into an imbalanced lullaby. Expansion is what saved Sc2 from dying. And I am afraid they will do the same thing all over again
On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote: lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch
I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff).
I can't believe you even want to debate the patch that basically began to kill sc2 from a terran viewers standpoint
On May 04 2013 10:12 Mortal wrote: That burrow change is really the only gripe of mine. I think the oracle change will only affect really high-level play if that, and the spore change is completely necessary. Muta battles are total bullshit to watch and play.
I'm interested to see what will come out of it. But also annoyed, as the last 5 TvZs I've had the zerg went for some weird 2 base ling/roach burrow pressure
On May 04 2013 17:09 convention wrote: I don't think we should add hp and shields to the oracle. The idea behind the unit is something that has high potential but is very hard to use (kind of like phoenixes). And so I think it should be kept with low hp to punish people when they are a little too cavalier with the unit, but it should have high enough speed that people who have the ultimate minimap awareness (Rain, Parting, Creator come to mind) are able to never lose a single oracle. Currently it won't matter, it just isn't fast enough to escape a lot of situations. The minor speed buff will allow it get away from all units (I think?) if you react very quickly, but it will still die really fast if you react too slowly.
Its already as fast or faster than every terran unit except a boosted medivac.
At its current speed, actually not. The oracle with its current 3.375 speed is equal in speed to stimmed marines and marauders; reapers, hellions, and medivacs with afterburners are faster than it. Increasing the speed to 4 makes it faster than everything Terran except the hellions and boosted medivacs.
My bad, I was thinking of units that can damage/threaten the oracle.
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
Yes, it was necessary for balancing the game. Although this and combination with metagame of turtling into broodlords didn't produce the best viewing experience. But it was pretty decent again after few months.
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff.
But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions.
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
Yes, it was necessary for balancing the game. Although this and combination with metagame of turtling into broodlords didn't produce the best viewing experience. But it was pretty decent again after few months.
I think you'll find that this opinion is not shared by many people in the community. But I absolutely refuse to discuss balance of a time period X to Y in the past if it's clear it has not implications on the current state of affairs.
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
Yes, it was necessary for balancing the game. Although this and combination with metagame of turtling into broodlords didn't produce the best viewing experience. But it was pretty decent again after few months.
The queen patch produced the most unbalanced state of the game (more unbalaned than terran in the beta, with a >60% win rate for zerg). Furthermore, it produced the worst viewing experience of SC2 (I took a hiatus from SC2 because of how horrible it was to watch infestor/BL turtling from zerg). I only started watching again because of the expansion (and I know I'm not alone here). Viewer numbers dropped like crazy in the final rounds of tournaments when it was zvzvzvz over and over and over again. With the EGMC, you would see view counts cut in half when a zerg would be playing someone. No one wanted to watch it, no one. It didn't ruin viewing experience for terran and protoss, it ruined it for anyone that ever wanted to watch a decent game. I didn't even feel like watching the zerg players I liked anymore, because the game was going to not be worth watching.
Back on topic of what this thread is about though. Has anyone been able to use the early burrow to effectively delay thirds? Does that seem like a reasonable build? How about get some ZvZs in with the spores, has anyone been able to defend with them?
On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote: lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch
I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff).
I can't believe you even want to debate the patch that basically began to kill sc2 from a terran viewers standpoint
I'll just let this go, n/m forget it
ftfy
Sarcastic but not very clever. I play Protoss and my enjoyment of the TvZ matchup decreased markedly in 2012.
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff.
But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions.
Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face.
On May 05 2013 18:11 mishimaBeef wrote: there was no tension... it was like yeah im gonna go in with hellions so what? now its like hmm should i go in with hellions?
Maybe you are right,but in the early stages of the Reactor Hellion build there was NO wall in the Zergs natural and they are were saying "we are not T and cant build a wall".After few weeks they began building evo chambers with a spine and 1-2 queens to defend.No way hellions to runby!Now i was "hmm should I TRY to go in with hellions maybe losing one or two of them to spine+queen?"
We lost the micro moment where hellions could kite queens and deny creep.Actually there is no way to deny the early 3rd of the Zerg.Hellion/banshee is death already,because queens+spore defend it all.
On May 05 2013 20:39 FakeDeath wrote: I think after we get the May monthly statistics. We can get a idea on the match-ups.
But for now TvZ seems to favor Terran quite a bit.
1.Spore buff 100% will go through.But ZvZ will still be Muta vs Muta 2.Burrow change has a 50/50 chance of going through.
3.Oracle buff won't go through.
The T got the advantage now only because almost every Zerg(I even saw Shine in RO16 GSL)goes "amove" into the T army as before.With mines available and the big splash they provide its not more costefficient even if you face only marines with lot of ling-bane-muta.Mines are less gass than tanks and you got more medivacs to heal,but usually Zergs just amove and expect to win and get rage after seeing its impossible and still losing 4th or 5th to a single drop,because of the non-existent defense there.They still play the WoL style and are not used to make Overseers and send them in front before the battle or lings to activate mines...
On May 05 2013 20:39 FakeDeath wrote: I think after we get the May monthly statistics. We can get a idea on the match-ups.
But for now TvZ seems to favor Terran quite a bit.
1.Spore buff 100% will go through.But ZvZ will still be Muta vs Muta 2.Burrow change has a 50/50 chance of going through.
3.Oracle buff won't go through.
The T got the advantage now only because almost every Zerg(I even saw Shine in RO16 GSL)goes "amove" into the T army as before.With mines available and the big splash they provide its not more costefficient even if you face only marines with lot of ling-bane-muta.Mines are less gass than tanks and you got more medivacs to heal,but usually Zergs just amove and expect to win and get rage after seeing its impossible and still losing 4th or 5th to a single drop,because of the non-existent defense there.They still play the WoL style and are not used to make Overseers and send them in front before the battle or lings to activate mines...
At pro level they do make Overseers. The problem is not that you don't see the mines, the problem is that they mean that you cannot attack in the position. To activate the mines you need quite some zerglings because the bio is defending them (only a few of them won't cut it). What would be the WoL style? I see no infestors here..unless we are going back years which is just dumb. Please, keep yourself from generalizing especially when you don't give a viable solution.
Edit: I suppose that zergs were a-moving before to splash the banes into the tanks and lose zerglings/mutas against biomedivac, right?
I am not saying that there is a big disadvantage for zerg but sure there is one.
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff.
But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions.
Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face.
The Queen patch was completely unnecessary for balance because TvZ at that point was extremely even and exciting to watch. I don't even remember that people were complaining about it, it was completely out of the nowhere. Originally it was +25 energy, then without communication and thorough testing they gave +2 range. While Terran certainly dominated for a longer period due to balance, the Zerg domination probably hurt SC2 more.
On May 05 2013 20:39 FakeDeath wrote: I think after we get the May monthly statistics. We can get a idea on the match-ups.
But for now TvZ seems to favor Terran quite a bit.
1.Spore buff 100% will go through.But ZvZ will still be Muta vs Muta 2.Burrow change has a 50/50 chance of going through.
3.Oracle buff won't go through.
The T got the advantage now only because almost every Zerg(I even saw Shine in RO16 GSL)goes "amove" into the T army as before.With mines available and the big splash they provide its not more costefficient even if you face only marines with lot of ling-bane-muta.Mines are less gass than tanks and you got more medivacs to heal,but usually Zergs just amove and expect to win and get rage after seeing its impossible and still losing 4th or 5th to a single drop,because of the non-existent defense there.They still play the WoL style and are not used to make Overseers and send them in front before the battle or lings to activate mines...
At pro level they do make Overseers. The problem is not that you don't see the mines, the problem is that they mean that you cannot attack in the position. To activate the mines you need quite some zerglings because the bio is defending them (only a few of them won't cut it). What would be the WoL style? I see no infestors here..unless we are going back years which is just dumb. Please, keep yourself from generalizing especially when you don't give a viable solution.
The WoL style with ling-muta-baneling is: amoving into the T army which is Marine/tank/medivac.Chasing marines with banelings trying to connect while lings kill tanks surrounding them and mutas maybe focus tanks or medivacs.The Terran player must focus fire banelings with tanks while stim and run spreading marines to avoid banelings conect while killing mutas and keeping medivacs stale to be healed.This is now impossible because you cant see mines and they do much bigger splash damage than tanks, so you CAN NOT amove like in WoL.Infestors are still OK for me.Dont understand why arent used as much as before.The missile is OK and is not so easy to avoid and there are no tanks to focus fire infestors as before. In HotS Zerg must try to catch terran army before mines are activated or try kill them as quick as possible with the Overseers spotting them,but if you see them burrow you must go back,and the Zergs are not used to do it,because of the old ling-bane-muta style I mentioned before.
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff.
But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions.
Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face.
The Queen was completely unnecessary for balance because TvZ at that point was extremely even and exciting to watch. I don't even remember that people were complaining about it, it was completely out of the nowhere. Originally it was +25 energy, then without communication and thorough testing they gave +2 range. Terran certainly dominated for a longer period, but the Zerg domination probably hurt SC2 more.
I think they asked the community if they wanted the range or the energy and the range "won".. not 100% sure though. Both dominations were equally bad but zerg's one was more unaesthetic. T dominated with speedy units while Z with a huge ball of immortality. Zerg, in the last part of WoL was clearly overpowered as hell. No one can argue against that. What's worse is that the "internal" balance of the race was extremely lacking.. infestors was the way to go, hydras were crap, mutas were decent but not as good as infestors. The queen allowed the zerg to get a solid defense without stopping drone production (it was acting like other races in the sense that they could make both workers and units just with a massive production). Right now the queen is not imbalanced though.
But for now TvZ seems to favor Terran quite a bit.
Thats because Terran is all about exploiting weaknesses in the early game and the more time you play against T the more you learn how to defend those and their timings. The more time passes on the better you responses are and the more you know. Lets take a reaper opening for example: when hots got realeased every zerg would lose 2-3 drones to a single reaper and IdrA almost smashed his monitor or punched DemusliM in his face since they used to sit right next to each other. How often do you see a zerg players lose a drone to the reaper nowadays? that almost doesnt happen at all. You guys remember how parting made him self look pathetic when he typed about the imba medevacs losing to Flash @ MLG? Havent we just seen him 2-0 flash in group B of code S? This game should be given time.
The only part of the game I personally think should be given a look at is the late game where tempest seem to be killing everything with zergs not really having an option against a composition with them. Neither terrans do have one against that too since BC just get spanked by high templars and tempest. But as I said, it all should be given time. I would still wait with buffing/nerfing for 2-3 months.
As for burrow i could agree on it being 50/50 but @ lair tech, its far too good of an ubgrade and has too much all in potential @ hatch tech and all ins is not what community nor the viewers are interested in right?
The oracle is very good in its current form, giving it a speed boost would just make PvT imba since then nothing would catch those and they already fry everything that is terran in the early game ultra fast. As an argument for buffing those Kim stated more or less that it only takes a turret. Well since you gave protoss so much cheaper of a dark shrine and oracles meaning they can go of 4 probes in 2 gases into both of those openings and get early expo every terran just has to get a turret. I always get a turret, so does Byun on his stream and so does Demuslim since against early protoss harrasment options its better to be safe than sorry. To be honest I dont particualry understand the logic behind buffing oracle since a turret or a spore in enought to deny them. When i go for a banshee and zerg makes a spore I just deal with it that he expected it and prepared accordingly isnt it how this should work?
P.S. HotS is amazing in how it currently plays out, both MLG and Dreamhack had 130k views on stream when big matches were being played, after everything got nerfed to shizzle in WoL there was barely 30k viewers in the finals of any big tournament (provided it wasnt a ZvZ, then - 30-40% viewers)
On May 05 2013 18:11 mishimaBeef wrote: there was no tension... it was like yeah im gonna go in with hellions so what? now its like hmm should i go in with hellions?
This is so wrong. I really don't know where this Zerg myth come from. Sacrificing Hellions pre-Queen patch was a risk against correct defence because Zerg would have some Zerglings at the top of his ramp to trap them, after which you had no more map control and Zerg was free to build his third.
On May 05 2013 18:11 mishimaBeef wrote: there was no tension... it was like yeah im gonna go in with hellions so what? now its like hmm should i go in with hellions?
This is so wrong. I really don't know where this Zerg myth come from. Sacrificing Hellions pre-Queen patch was a risk against correct defence because Zerg would have some Zerglings at the top of his ramp to trap them, after which you had no more map control and Zerg was free to build his third.
from the same place where "after queen patch you could drone to 70 without any risk" comes from. Forums
On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote: lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch
I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff).
I can't believe you even want to debate the patch that basically began to kill sc2 from a terran viewers standpoint
I'll just let this go, n/m forget it
ftfy
Sarcastic but not very clever. I play Protoss and my enjoyment of the TvZ matchup decreased markedly in 2012.
I also play Protoss and TvZ became an utter snoozefest with the queen buffs. It was the worst mistake Blizzard ever made with patching to go from a 50/50 match up to 40-60 ZvT with absolutely no reason for doing so and making the match up horribly boring at the same time.
I think the proposed Oracle buff is great. Right now Stargate is a huge gamble if you don't proxy it, seeing some actual real Stargate builds would be a nice change.
On May 05 2013 18:11 mishimaBeef wrote: there was no tension... it was like yeah im gonna go in with hellions so what? now its like hmm should i go in with hellions?
Maybe you are right,but in the early stages of the Reactor Hellion build there was NO wall in the Zergs natural and they are were saying "we are not T and cant build a wall".After few weeks they began building evo chambers with a spine and 1-2 queens to defend.No way hellions to runby!Now i was "hmm should I TRY to go in with hellions maybe losing one or two of them to spine+queen?"
We lost the micro moment where hellions could kite queens and deny creep.Actually there is no way to deny the early 3rd of the Zerg.Hellion/banshee is death already,because queens+spore defend it all.
I am pretty sure Zerg had already started wall-ing before the queen patch. the biggest problem with the hellions was the complete map domination and difficulty to scout ahead. It can be a 2 port banshee follow up mass blueflame hellion hellion marauders quick 3rd in base CC (before zerg even able to start it's own 3rd)
That's why zerg like DRG loves to go roach baneling all in, it just kills any greedy terran easily. Getting an early roach warren is not too popular because it just further delays your 3rd and not able to defend a 2 base timing attack very well.
hellions and banshees are still used for their tactical purposes, not for run by or dealing game breaking damage, they are to gain map control, delay creep spread (pro still deny creep spread with hellions), force more lings, banshee shuts down roach counter pressure. That's why hellions are still used in TvZ nowadays after reaper opening, better map control and trade efficiently after the zerg made lings to deal with hellions
Like all of the changes except for the Oracle one.. It's too easy to just have 1 outside the enemy base and as soon as a fight occurs just a move it into the worker line already for it to wreck shit. Now it's gonna kill workers even faster... Thumbs down.
But for now TvZ seems to favor Terran quite a bit.
Thats because Terran is all about exploiting weaknesses in the early game and the more time you play against T the more you learn how to defend those and their timings. The more time passes on the better you responses are and the more you know. Lets take a reaper opening for example: when hots got realeased every zerg would lose 2-3 drones to a single reaper and IdrA almost smashed his monitor or punched DemusliM in his face since they used to sit right next to each other. How often do you see a zerg players lose a drone to the reaper nowadays? that almost doesnt happen at all. You guys remember how parting made him self look pathetic when he typed about the imba medevacs losing to Flash @ MLG? Havent we just seen him 2-0 flash in group B of code S? This game should be given time.
Well I hope zergs will find some answers, because right now you can pretty much always put a "18+ only" sign on Innovation TvZ :D.
The only part of the game I personally think should be given a look at is the late game where tempest seem to be killing everything with zergs not really having an option against a composition with them. Neither terrans do have one against that too since BC just get spanked by high templars and tempest. But as I said, it all should be given time. I would still wait with buffing/nerfing for 2-3 months.
Actually I'm zerg and I don't fear any lategame protoss composition. With SH, vipers and hydralisks you can handle pretty much anything protoss can throw at you.
As for burrow i could agree on it being 50/50 but @ lair tech, its far too good of an ubgrade and has too much all in potential @ hatch tech and all ins is not what community nor the viewers are interested in right?
The problem is that burrow is not that cheap, it's not always obvious how to use it well, and zerg is kinda gas starved at the beggining of the game (you often prefer +1 than burrow...). 50/50 at lair tech would be fine for me
On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote: lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch
I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff).
I can't believe you even want to debate the patch that basically began to kill sc2 from a terran viewers standpoint
I'll just let this go, n/m forget it
ftfy
Sarcastic but not very clever. I play Protoss and my enjoyment of the TvZ matchup decreased markedly in 2012.
I also play Protoss and TvZ became an utter snoozefest with the queen buffs. It was the worst mistake Blizzard ever made with patching to go from a 50/50 match up to 40-60 ZvT with absolutely no reason for doing so and making the match up horribly boring at the same time.
I think the proposed Oracle buff is great. Right now Stargate is a huge gamble if you don't proxy it, seeing some actual real Stargate builds would be a nice change.
I don't see how a slight speed boost for the oracle makes stargate openers any less of a gamble. The true problem is that the oracle and the phoenix overlap very hard and have no synergy. To create less volatile stargate openers the oracle or the phoenix have to be changed to create some kind of harass synergy. One oracle and a few phoenix would be still very useful after the initial harass is stopped. Right now you have to build multiple oracles and do lots of damage, because more then maybe one oracle is useless later in the game.
The oracle is not a support caster right now. It seems to be the ugly result of a orgy between a mothership core, a sentry and a phoenix. :D
On May 05 2013 18:11 mishimaBeef wrote: there was no tension... it was like yeah im gonna go in with hellions so what? now its like hmm should i go in with hellions?
This is so wrong. I really don't know where this Zerg myth come from. Sacrificing Hellions pre-Queen patch was a risk against correct defence because Zerg would have some Zerglings at the top of his ramp to trap them, after which you had no more map control and Zerg was free to build his third.
from the same place where "after queen patch you could drone to 70 without any risk" comes from. Forums
Wait, I thought if you built the 6th queen, you just got 70 drones. Is that not true?
On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote: lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch
I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff).
I can't believe you even want to debate the patch that basically began to kill sc2 from a terran viewers standpoint
I'll just let this go, n/m forget it
ftfy
Sarcastic but not very clever. I play Protoss and my enjoyment of the TvZ matchup decreased markedly in 2012.
I also play Protoss and TvZ became an utter snoozefest with the queen buffs. It was the worst mistake Blizzard ever made with patching to go from a 50/50 match up to 40-60 ZvT with absolutely no reason for doing so and making the match up horribly boring at the same time.
I think the proposed Oracle buff is great. Right now Stargate is a huge gamble if you don't proxy it, seeing some actual real Stargate builds would be a nice change.
I don't see how a slight speed boost for the oracle makes stargate openers any less of a gamble. The true problem is that the oracle and the phoenix overlap very hard and have no synergy. To create less volatile stargate openers the oracle or the phoenix have to be changed to create some kind of harass synergy. One oracle and a few phoenix would be still very useful after the initial harass is stopped. Right now you have to build multiple oracles and do lots of damage, because more then maybe one oracle is useless later in the game.
The oracle is not a support caster right now. It seems to be the ugly result of a orgy between a mothership core, a sentry and a phoenix. :D
Actually this patch is going to give a ton of synergy between the Phoenix and Oracle. It will make the oracle almost the same speed, which will allow easier control when flying together. Having a phoenix (real or hallucinated) fly in first to check for widow mines in the opponent's mineral line, will now be more closely followed by an oracle that can actually catch up to workers, punishing a terran for just leaving a single widow mine for defense.
And against zerg, you will now be able to use a single phoenix to lift up the queen and go to town with an oracle on the drones that can't just run away anymore, as long as they don't have some static defense set up already.
And now that the oracle is almost on par with phoenix speed, you can just use them for hallucinations to scout, rather than an obviously fake pheonix. This will scare the opponent into making static defense and keep them in their base while you are actually going down a completely different tech path.
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff.
But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions.
Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face.
The Queen patch was completely unnecessary for balance because TvZ at that point was extremely even and exciting to watch. I don't even remember that people were complaining about it, it was completely out of the nowhere. Originally it was +25 energy, then without communication and thorough testing they gave +2 range. While Terran certainly dominated for a longer period due to balance, the Zerg domination probably hurt SC2 more.
It wasn't exciting to watch. It was painful. Terran player would make a bunch of helions, then move on in. As someone else just pointed out, there was no tension from a T perspective. Now they at least have to think about it for a second before blindly throwing 6 or 8 helions into your base with hardly any attention paid to them.
If the Z played it perfectly, they'd be able to escape it, but so many helions can roast so many drones so quickly that it was extremely easy for it to become an uphill battle.
On May 04 2013 02:49 rQvicious wrote: blizz you better; think about this carefully all i ever see are terran nerfs and protoss\zerg buffs...
already the fucking protoss planetary fortress is op; and now you wanna gaurentee at least one oracle in us "terran" players mineral lines every game..
Nothing wrong with that. We have to deal with your widow mine drop shit every game.
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff.
But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions.
Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face.
The Queen patch was completely unnecessary for balance because TvZ at that point was extremely even and exciting to watch. I don't even remember that people were complaining about it, it was completely out of the nowhere. Originally it was +25 energy, then without communication and thorough testing they gave +2 range. While Terran certainly dominated for a longer period due to balance, the Zerg domination probably hurt SC2 more.
It wasn't exciting to watch. It was painful. Terran player would make a bunch of helions, then move on in. As someone else just pointed out, there was no tension from a T perspective. Now they at least have to think about it for a second before blindly throwing 6 or 8 helions into your base with hardly any attention paid to them.
If the Z played it perfectly, they'd be able to escape it, but so many helions can roast so many drones so quickly that it was extremely easy for it to become an uphill battle.
If hellions reached your mineral line you were doing something wrong already, so you should take dmg. That is why people had started walling off and before the patch especially. There wasn't really any issue with the hellions the reason for the change was that blizzard didn't want the _creep spread_ to be controlled so well by the terran which was also preventing the zerg from getting out from hellion contains. That lead into a free base for the zerg and droning up to full saturation if the T tried to go macro. The runbys were never really what bothered Blizzard, or atleast wasn't the motive for the patch, the zerg just needs to L2P if that was an issue for them. I don't really understand why people are critizing "droning up to 70", because that was exactly what happened after the patch, assuming the T tried to go 3rd OC. If he didn't go 3rd OC ofc the zerg had to stop a little earlier, but by that time the terran was essentially pretty allin, he had to do considerable dmg. I'd also note that the mass queen opening was already viable before the patch. It wasn't killing the hellions really, but with the amount of queens they could push abit off creep to get the creep tumors down behind them. The patch was essentially Blizzard trying to force the metagame to shift, which had terrible effects on the best MU in WoL.
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff.
But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions.
Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face.
The Queen patch was completely unnecessary for balance because TvZ at that point was extremely even and exciting to watch. I don't even remember that people were complaining about it, it was completely out of the nowhere. Originally it was +25 energy, then without communication and thorough testing they gave +2 range. While Terran certainly dominated for a longer period due to balance, the Zerg domination probably hurt SC2 more.
It wasn't exciting to watch. It was painful. Terran player would make a bunch of helions, then move on in. As someone else just pointed out, there was no tension from a T perspective. Now they at least have to think about it for a second before blindly throwing 6 or 8 helions into your base with hardly any attention paid to them.
If the Z played it perfectly, they'd be able to escape it, but so many helions can roast so many drones so quickly that it was extremely easy for it to become an uphill battle.
If hellions reached your mineral line you were doing something wrong already, so you should take dmg. That is why people had started walling off and before the patch especially. There wasn't really any issue with the hellions the reason for the change was that blizzard didn't want the _creep spread_ to be controlled so well by the terran which was also preventing the zerg from getting out from hellion contains. That lead into a free base for the zerg and droning up to full saturation if the T tried to go macro. The runbys were never really what bothered Blizzard, or atleast wasn't the motive for the patch, the zerg just needs to L2P if that was an issue for them. I don't really understand why people are critizing "droning up to 70", because that was exactly what happened after the patch, assuming the T tried to go 3rd OC. If he didn't go 3rd OC ofc the zerg had to stop a little earlier, but by that time the terran was essentially pretty allin, he had to do considerable dmg. I'd also note that the mass queen opening was already viable before the patch. It wasn't killing the hellions really, but with the amount of queens they could push abit off creep to get the creep tumors down behind them. The patch was essentially Blizzard trying to force the metagame to shift, which had terrible effects on the best MU in WoL.
I really don't think ZvT was ever the best matchup in WoL :/ It was basically the Terran doing the same thing every game and the Zerg being on the back foot until about 15+ minutes if the game lasted that long. You know that all these things you say about Z are true for T as well. Terran can just scv up to 70 unless the Zerg doesn't take a 3rd in which case the zerg is pretty all in anyway. You know how hard it is to do damage before lategame without going all in as Zerg? You only have melee units essentially (hydras are pretty ineffective againt terran and roach have such short range) and you are against Tanks Mines and Hellbats right now, all of which destroy units that cluster together, which happen to be small melee units. So basically we have to sit back and let you macro or wait for you to come out and attack us.
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff.
But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions.
Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face.
The Queen patch was completely unnecessary for balance because TvZ at that point was extremely even and exciting to watch. I don't even remember that people were complaining about it, it was completely out of the nowhere. Originally it was +25 energy, then without communication and thorough testing they gave +2 range. While Terran certainly dominated for a longer period due to balance, the Zerg domination probably hurt SC2 more.
It wasn't exciting to watch. It was painful. Terran player would make a bunch of helions, then move on in. As someone else just pointed out, there was no tension from a T perspective. Now they at least have to think about it for a second before blindly throwing 6 or 8 helions into your base with hardly any attention paid to them.
If the Z played it perfectly, they'd be able to escape it, but so many helions can roast so many drones so quickly that it was extremely easy for it to become an uphill battle.
If hellions reached your mineral line you were doing something wrong already, so you should take dmg. That is why people had started walling off and before the patch especially. There wasn't really any issue with the hellions the reason for the change was that blizzard didn't want the _creep spread_ to be controlled so well by the terran which was also preventing the zerg from getting out from hellion contains. That lead into a free base for the zerg and droning up to full saturation if the T tried to go macro. The runbys were never really what bothered Blizzard, or atleast wasn't the motive for the patch, the zerg just needs to L2P if that was an issue for them. I don't really understand why people are critizing "droning up to 70", because that was exactly what happened after the patch, assuming the T tried to go 3rd OC. If he didn't go 3rd OC ofc the zerg had to stop a little earlier, but by that time the terran was essentially pretty allin, he had to do considerable dmg. I'd also note that the mass queen opening was already viable before the patch. It wasn't killing the hellions really, but with the amount of queens they could push abit off creep to get the creep tumors down behind them. The patch was essentially Blizzard trying to force the metagame to shift, which had terrible effects on the best MU in WoL.
I really don't think ZvT was ever the best matchup in WoL :/ It was basically the Terran doing the same thing every game and the Zerg being on the back foot until about 15+ minutes if the game lasted that long. You know that all these things you say about Z are true for T as well. Terran can just scv up to 70 unless the Zerg doesn't take a 3rd in which case the zerg is pretty all in anyway. You know how hard it is to do damage before lategame without going all in as Zerg? You only have melee units essentially (hydras are pretty ineffective againt terran and roach have such short range) and you are against Tanks Mines and Hellbats right now, all of which destroy units that cluster together, which happen to be small melee units. So basically we have to sit back and let you macro or wait for you to come out and attack us.
TvZ was and is the best matchup. As a spectator. Strategically it has always been very dull apart from that phase when Mvp said "fuck it, I'm mixing in mech". T attacks with mass marines in various variations and zerg builds the 2-3units that can actually deal with marine/medivac while teching up and droning up until T has to slowly fade from 80%marines into 40%marines. (always makes me wonder why we need 15 units per race in the game, when only 5 turn out to be viable)
Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff.
But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions.
Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face.
The Queen patch was completely unnecessary for balance because TvZ at that point was extremely even and exciting to watch. I don't even remember that people were complaining about it, it was completely out of the nowhere. Originally it was +25 energy, then without communication and thorough testing they gave +2 range. While Terran certainly dominated for a longer period due to balance, the Zerg domination probably hurt SC2 more.
It wasn't exciting to watch. It was painful. Terran player would make a bunch of helions, then move on in. As someone else just pointed out, there was no tension from a T perspective. Now they at least have to think about it for a second before blindly throwing 6 or 8 helions into your base with hardly any attention paid to them.
If the Z played it perfectly, they'd be able to escape it, but so many helions can roast so many drones so quickly that it was extremely easy for it to become an uphill battle.
If hellions reached your mineral line you were doing something wrong already, so you should take dmg. That is why people had started walling off and before the patch especially. There wasn't really any issue with the hellions the reason for the change was that blizzard didn't want the _creep spread_ to be controlled so well by the terran which was also preventing the zerg from getting out from hellion contains. That lead into a free base for the zerg and droning up to full saturation if the T tried to go macro. The runbys were never really what bothered Blizzard, or atleast wasn't the motive for the patch, the zerg just needs to L2P if that was an issue for them. I don't really understand why people are critizing "droning up to 70", because that was exactly what happened after the patch, assuming the T tried to go 3rd OC. If he didn't go 3rd OC ofc the zerg had to stop a little earlier, but by that time the terran was essentially pretty allin, he had to do considerable dmg. I'd also note that the mass queen opening was already viable before the patch. It wasn't killing the hellions really, but with the amount of queens they could push abit off creep to get the creep tumors down behind them. The patch was essentially Blizzard trying to force the metagame to shift, which had terrible effects on the best MU in WoL.
I really don't think ZvT was ever the best matchup in WoL :/ It was basically the Terran doing the same thing every game and the Zerg being on the back foot until about 15+ minutes if the game lasted that long. You know that all these things you say about Z are true for T as well. Terran can just scv up to 70 unless the Zerg doesn't take a 3rd in which case the zerg is pretty all in anyway. You know how hard it is to do damage before lategame without going all in as Zerg? You only have melee units essentially (hydras are pretty ineffective againt terran and roach have such short range) and you are against Tanks Mines and Hellbats right now, all of which destroy units that cluster together, which happen to be small melee units. So basically we have to sit back and let you macro or wait for you to come out and attack us.
Terran can go full macro till 70SCVs free? Have you played ladder or watched streams lately? DemusliM suffered this TvZ 2 days ago.Every single TvZ was facing Roach-ling,Roach bane, or ling baneling NOT ALL IN.It was only 7-10 min aggression.Nowadays there is the 2 base mass roach into 3rd aggresion at almos 12 mins with non stop roach.TErran need to expand with reactor hellion or reaper hellion into 3 CCs to try outrmacro the Zerg who is totally free to take his 3rd without any fear.You cant punish that 3rd neither deny it with only 6-8 hellions.Neither runbies are possible due to the evo/spine/queen wall and deny creep is expose your hellions to the 2-3 queendraliks shots. Zerg was never back in the first 15 mins.Every Master Zerg is maxed at 14 mins ready to deny drops or the Terrans 3rd,preparing the Hive transition to Greater Spire or Ultralisks
Agree that TvZ was the best MU in WoL. Also that queen change was bogus and still is. I don't understand Blizzard always over doing its buffs or nerfs. Make the queen have +1 range not +2. Slow and steady.
But for now TvZ seems to favor Terran quite a bit.
Thats because Terran is all about exploiting weaknesses in the early game and the more time you play against T the more you learn how to defend those and their timings. The more time passes on the better you responses are and the more you know. Lets take a reaper opening for example: when hots got realeased every zerg would lose 2-3 drones to a single reaper and IdrA almost smashed his monitor or punched DemusliM in his face since they used to sit right next to each other. How often do you see a zerg players lose a drone to the reaper nowadays? that almost doesnt happen at all. You guys remember how parting made him self look pathetic when he typed about the imba medevacs losing to Flash @ MLG? Havent we just seen him 2-0 flash in group B of code S? This game should be given time.
The only part of the game I personally think should be given a look at is the late game where tempest seem to be killing everything with zergs not really having an option against a composition with them. Neither terrans do have one against that too since BC just get spanked by high templars and tempest. But as I said, it all should be given time. I would still wait with buffing/nerfing for 2-3 months.
As for burrow i could agree on it being 50/50 but @ lair tech, its far too good of an ubgrade and has too much all in potential @ hatch tech and all ins is not what community nor the viewers are interested in right?
The oracle is very good in its current form, giving it a speed boost would just make PvT imba since then nothing would catch those and they already fry everything that is terran in the early game ultra fast. As an argument for buffing those Kim stated more or less that it only takes a turret. Well since you gave protoss so much cheaper of a dark shrine and oracles meaning they can go of 4 probes in 2 gases into both of those openings and get early expo every terran just has to get a turret. I always get a turret, so does Byun on his stream and so does Demuslim since against early protoss harrasment options its better to be safe than sorry. To be honest I dont particualry understand the logic behind buffing oracle since a turret or a spore in enought to deny them. When i go for a banshee and zerg makes a spore I just deal with it that he expected it and prepared accordingly isnt it how this should work?
P.S. HotS is amazing in how it currently plays out, both MLG and Dreamhack had 130k views on stream when big matches were being played, after everything got nerfed to shizzle in WoL there was barely 30k viewers in the finals of any big tournament (provided it wasnt a ZvZ, then - 30-40% viewers)
This is a very good analysis, and it really touches on some of the underlying logic that people might not understand while looking at the surface.
I will miss the current Muta vs Muta chaos if these changes are going to be implemented. I am also curious about the fact that Blizzard has not mentioned anything about Terran in this beta test. Are they happy with Terran?
On May 04 2013 02:49 rQvicious wrote: blizz you better; think about this carefully all i ever see are terran nerfs and protoss\zerg buffs...
already the fucking protoss planetary fortress is op; and now you wanna gaurentee at least one oracle in us "terran" players mineral lines every game..
Nothing wrong with that. We have to deal with your widow mine drop shit every game.
Just as he said, widow mine drops are a common sight in TvP. I'd rather that Blizzard ignore the oracle for now and concentrate more on how they can nerf Terran a bit.
On May 04 2013 02:49 rQvicious wrote: blizz you better; think about this carefully all i ever see are terran nerfs and protoss\zerg buffs...
already the fucking protoss planetary fortress is op; and now you wanna gaurentee at least one oracle in us "terran" players mineral lines every game..
Welcome to the other side. Zerg and Protoss need to deal with nonsense like ubervacs, hellbats and widow drops every time as well.
On May 04 2013 02:49 rQvicious wrote: blizz you better; think about this carefully all i ever see are terran nerfs and protoss\zerg buffs...
already the fucking protoss planetary fortress is op; and now you wanna gaurentee at least one oracle in us "terran" players mineral lines every game..
Welcome to the other side. Zerg and Protoss need to deal with nonsense like ubervacs, hellbats and widow drops every time as well.
speedvacs, hellbats and widow mines DO NOT make your extremely safe the first 10 minutes of the game, and make you play greedy without any risks
Oracles are essentially useless right now imo, this will be a welcome change. Right now, Protoss is still in need of a devastating harassment unit, and still remains the only race that can't really do massive damages through harassment with units they'd making anyway (aka mutalisks or everything terran has that goes in a medivac).
On May 04 2013 02:49 rQvicious wrote: blizz you better; think about this carefully all i ever see are terran nerfs and protoss\zerg buffs...
already the fucking protoss planetary fortress is op; and now you wanna gaurentee at least one oracle in us "terran" players mineral lines every game..
Nothing wrong with that. We have to deal with your widow mine drop shit every game.
Just as he said, widow mine drops are a common sight in TvP. I'd rather that Blizzard ignore the oracle for now and concentrate more on how they can nerf Terran a bit.
because you face it on the ladder? oh boy.
sac 1 probe and be safe forever. the times where widow mine drops win games seem to be over @ gsl.
I'm not really sure about the burrow buff. burrowed roaches are a nasty thing to deal with.
On May 06 2013 05:14 ffadicted wrote: Oracles are essentially useless right now imo, this will be a welcome change. Right now, Protoss is still in need of a devastating harassment unit, and still remains the only race that can't really do massive damages through harassment with units they'd making anyway (aka mutalisks or everything terran has that goes in a medivac).
Excited to see where this change leads.
Oracles are pretty much as devastating as you are going to get them. The problem is they are so devastating everyone who suspects oracles might be coming will make every mineral line 100% oracle proof.
And toss also have for example warp prism harrasment, either with zealots or HT drops.
On May 04 2013 17:09 convention wrote: I don't think we should add hp and shields to the oracle. The idea behind the unit is something that has high potential but is very hard to use (kind of like phoenixes). And so I think it should be kept with low hp to punish people when they are a little too cavalier with the unit, but it should have high enough speed that people who have the ultimate minimap awareness (Rain, Parting, Creator come to mind) are able to never lose a single oracle. Currently it won't matter, it just isn't fast enough to escape a lot of situations. The minor speed buff will allow it get away from all units (I think?) if you react very quickly, but it will still die really fast if you react too slowly.
Its already as fast or faster than every terran unit except a boosted medivac.
At its current speed, actually not. The oracle with its current 3.375 speed is equal in speed to stimmed marines and marauders; reapers, hellions, and medivacs with afterburners are faster than it. Increasing the speed to 4 makes it faster than everything Terran except the hellions and boosted medivacs.
My bad, I was thinking of units that can damage/threaten the oracle.
Well then, your boosted medivac exception is totally valid. The short of is that no Terran air unit has any chance of catching up to an oracle (or a phoenix) in a speed race. Currently stimmed marines can keep pace with an oracle and can catch it if the oracle has to turn (marines basically have instantaneous acceleration); with the speed boost oracles will be able to outrun stimmed marines as well once they get a full head of steam.
On May 06 2013 05:14 ffadicted wrote: Oracles are essentially useless right now imo, this will be a welcome change. Right now, Protoss is still in need of a devastating harassment unit, and still remains the only race that can't really do massive damages through harassment with units they'd making anyway (aka mutalisks or everything terran has that goes in a medivac).
Excited to see where this change leads.
Oracles are pretty much as devastating as you are going to get them. The problem is they are so devastating everyone who suspects oracles might be coming will make every mineral line 100% oracle proof.
And toss also have for example warp prism harrasment, either with zealots or HT drops.
Warp prism harassment is useless against Terran. Zealots kill buildings well, they don't kill workers. It's good against Zerg because you can kill a hatchery or tech buildings, it's useless against Terran because of lift. HT drops are just bad in general, even if it works out you're just trading gas for minerals.
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
I like the burrow enhancement, as the detection options start to outweigh the usefulness of it. So it being cheaper, can open up some other uses for it, such as burrow lings all around the map for vision in combination with creep spread, because why not ^^ The oracle change, seems to be making it a more micro intensive unit, like the reaper and mutalisks (which also recieved upgrade in HOTS). While oracles are powerful, they also die easier, perhaps they can dodge widow mines now? ^^
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...
On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote: The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want...
And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent.
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...
On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote: The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want...
And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent.
You are talking about WOL right?
Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg.
Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore.
On May 04 2013 02:49 rQvicious wrote: blizz you better; think about this carefully all i ever see are terran nerfs and protoss\zerg buffs...
already the fucking protoss planetary fortress is op; and now you wanna gaurentee at least one oracle in us "terran" players mineral lines every game..
Nothing wrong with that. We have to deal with your widow mine drop shit every game.
Just as he said, widow mine drops are a common sight in TvP. I'd rather that Blizzard ignore the oracle for now and concentrate more on how they can nerf Terran a bit.
because you face it on the ladder? oh boy.
sac 1 probe and be safe forever. the times where widow mine drops win games seem to be over @ gsl.
I'm not really sure about the burrow buff. burrowed roaches are a nasty thing to deal with.
This is such a pointless argument. I can say the same thing. "Build a turret in your mineral line and be safe forever". The only problem is, you want to go for your greedy fast expand + fast medivac + widow mine every game (while skimping on marines) without adapting even a teeny bit, and still want to be perfectly safe against airplay. Protoss puts a lot more gas into oracle harass, so its only logical that you spend somewhat equivalent minerals to defend against it.
Which I could agree with more if protos didn't have their planetary nexus. Personally my problem isn't so much oracle harrasment, or even the myriad all-ins toss have, but that they themselves are so resistant against all-ins by casting a single spell from a hero unit. At least mothership vortex meant you had to risk the mothership, now blizzard made exactly what they said they didn't want and also removed skill requirement from both sides. Vortex vs zerg in PvZ late game was far from good gameplay, but at least positioning played a very important role there.
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...
On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:
On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote: The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want...
And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent.
You are talking about WOL right?
Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg.
Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore.
The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first.
Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect.
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...
On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:
On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote: The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want...
And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent.
You are talking about WOL right?
Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg.
Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore.
The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first.
Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect.
Na, because Terrans will find out about siege tanks, mass thor, that they have an invincible air army in TvZ, that they can actually have complete mapcontrol with marine/turbovac, that they can target their widow mines, that they can use empty medivacs to force a whole army around and that scans are actually really good and makes them bulletproof against retarded builds like midgame roachbusts. Oh well and they may discover that ghosts are really good, but for that their opponents would actually need to start using casters, and why would you do so, when you can just outmicro infestors and vipers with marines only.
Has anyone test the timings of burrow? I'm curious if it comes early enough to deny expos or to use as early burrow traps, such as vs Hellion openings, or early baneling bombs in ZvZ. I'm also wondering if it comes out fast enough that it can be used to burrow drones when harass like drops/hellions/phoenixs/mutas etc come in.
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...
On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:
On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote: The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want...
And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent.
You are talking about WOL right?
Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg.
Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore.
The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first.
Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect.
WOL=/= HotS
WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything.
There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS.
People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition).
Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used.
This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed.
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...
On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:
On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote: The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want...
And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent.
You are talking about WOL right?
Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg.
Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore.
The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first.
Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect.
WOL=/= HotS
WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything.
There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS.
People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition).
Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used.
This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed.
no the role hasn´t changed. As a terran you are still on the clock and you have to make damage in the early game. The only difference now is that there are Ultralisk instead of BL´s.
Watch the practise session that Demuslim did against Suppy a couple of days ago. He crushed him a couple of times with super fast Ultralisks.
In my opinion the Widowmine needs a change to reduce the splash (Hellbats are the unit to build to ling/zealot) and increase the single target (maybe against massive or something like that).
And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore.
moving burrow to t1 is a gimmicky, nothing else. buffing oracle is just a bad move, srsly. "A bunch of mutas should deal with that". Yep, it should, and if an Oracle forces a zerg into mutas, the p does have a stargate up for the hardcounter so... blizz omg. Rather nerf hallucinations from sentry, easywin scout of basically everything.
And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore.
Really?
- double yamato because of cheaper cost with 100 energy instead 125 -> double corruptor/broodlord oneshot - shared armor upgrades, meaning that Battlecruisers will earlier start with more armor - nerfed Infested Terrans which were able to kill cruisers - abduct? You have vikings, better seeker missiles and widow mines to shut down vipers - vikings come with more armor too because of shared armor upgrades
On May 06 2013 18:38 boxerfred wrote: moving burrow to t1 is a gimmicky, nothing else. buffing oracle is just a bad move, srsly. "A bunch of mutas should deal with that". Yep, it should, and if an Oracle forces a zerg into mutas, the p does have a stargate up for the hardcounter so... blizz omg. Rather nerf hallucinations from sentry, easywin scout of basically everything.
It's been t1 since the HoTS beta. When it was t2 nobody ever used it.
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...
On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:
On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote: The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want...
And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent.
You are talking about WOL right?
Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg.
Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore.
The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first.
Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect.
WOL=/= HotS
WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything.
There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS.
People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition).
Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used.
This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed.
no the role hasn´t changed. As a terran you are still on the clock and you have to make damage in the early game. The only difference now is that there are Ultralisk instead of BL´s.
Watch the practise session that Demuslim did against Suppy a couple of days ago. He crushed him a couple of times with super fast Ultralisks.
In my opinion the Widowmine needs a change to reduce the splash (Hellbats are the unit to build to ling/zealot) and increase the single target (maybe against massive or something like that).
And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore.
lol what? Terran on a clock? You have bio and biomech and mech armies that beat anything in the right ratios. Extremely powerful drop and counterattack play with the medivac that buys incredible amounts of time to adjust your army. You have an airarmy that I can't remember to ever see lose in WoL - with the strong infestor and the weaker raven and the far longer transitioning time due to upgrades... If you have trouble with Ultras - build marauders in time. Yeah, thank god there is one unit left that can break the 30marines/minute rally. But if you think it's broken because pure marine/mine can't deal with it, I can't help you...
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...
On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:
On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote: The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want...
And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent.
You are talking about WOL right?
Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg.
Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore.
The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first.
Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect.
WOL=/= HotS
WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything.
There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS.
People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition).
Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used.
This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed.
no the role hasn´t changed. As a terran you are still on the clock and you have to make damage in the early game. The only difference now is that there are Ultralisk instead of BL´s.
Watch the practise session that Demuslim did against Suppy a couple of days ago. He crushed him a couple of times with super fast Ultralisks.
In my opinion the Widowmine needs a change to reduce the splash (Hellbats are the unit to build to ling/zealot) and increase the single target (maybe against massive or something like that).
And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore.
lol what? Terran on a clock? You have bio and biomech and mech armies that beat anything in the right ratios. Extremely powerful drop and counterattack play with the medivac that buys incredible amounts of time to adjust your army. You have an airarmy that I can't remember to ever see lose in WoL - with the strong infestor and the weaker raven and the far longer transitioning time due to upgrades... If you have trouble with Ultras - build marauders in time. Yeah, thank god there is one unit left that can break the 30marines/minute rally. But if you think it's broken because pure marine/mine can't deal with it, I can't help you...
Aktually, i kind of agree with you in a perfect world with perfect unit control the Terran army is the best or better sayed the most cost efficient army. The Problem is to get to that army while denying 6 bases for the zerg. The margin of error with Terran is just smaller than for Z or P. And there is no way a Terran could ever surprise you because there are no tech switches and there is no other unit composition that is viable and flexible enough.
It´s the good old "Terran is the best race by far if the player is better" - crap.
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...
On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:
On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote: The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want...
And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent.
You are talking about WOL right?
Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg.
Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore.
The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first.
Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect.
WOL=/= HotS
WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything.
There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS.
People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition).
Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used.
This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed.
no the role hasn´t changed. As a terran you are still on the clock and you have to make damage in the early game. The only difference now is that there are Ultralisk instead of BL´s.
Watch the practise session that Demuslim did against Suppy a couple of days ago. He crushed him a couple of times with super fast Ultralisks.
In my opinion the Widowmine needs a change to reduce the splash (Hellbats are the unit to build to ling/zealot) and increase the single target (maybe against massive or something like that).
And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore.
lol what? Terran on a clock? You have bio and biomech and mech armies that beat anything in the right ratios. Extremely powerful drop and counterattack play with the medivac that buys incredible amounts of time to adjust your army. You have an airarmy that I can't remember to ever see lose in WoL - with the strong infestor and the weaker raven and the far longer transitioning time due to upgrades... If you have trouble with Ultras - build marauders in time. Yeah, thank god there is one unit left that can break the 30marines/minute rally. But if you think it's broken because pure marine/mine can't deal with it, I can't help you...
Aktually, i kind of agree with you in a perfect world with perfect unit control the Terran army is the best or better sayed the most cost efficient army. The Problem is to get to that army while denying 6 bases for the zerg. The margin of error with Terran is just smaller than for Z or P. And there is no way a Terran could ever surprise you because there are no tech switches and there is no other unit composition that is viable and flexible enough.
It´s the good old "Terran is the best race by far if the player is better" - crap.
Wait... your problems is ultras. The counter to that is MMM with a 1:1 or higher marine:marauder ratio. And you say it's hard to get that army while denying 6bases for zerg... You get that army of 3-4bases at 15-18mins. I don't know which beastly zergs you play that have 6bases and ultras at that time and survived all forms of pushes and drops and hellions.
sure bro, randomly drop two hellbats here and there is really hard and forgiving for the other races. Log in the KR server, play there and see how much koreans terran are playing different the game, they're using hots units at least, not noly mass recall medivacs.
The old "terran is only for koreans" thing is not true anymore, stop this shit
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...
On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:
On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote: The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want...
And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent.
You are talking about WOL right?
Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg.
Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore.
The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first.
Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect.
WOL=/= HotS
WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything.
There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS.
People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition).
Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used.
This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed.
no the role hasn´t changed. As a terran you are still on the clock and you have to make damage in the early game. The only difference now is that there are Ultralisk instead of BL´s.
Watch the practise session that Demuslim did against Suppy a couple of days ago. He crushed him a couple of times with super fast Ultralisks.
In my opinion the Widowmine needs a change to reduce the splash (Hellbats are the unit to build to ling/zealot) and increase the single target (maybe against massive or something like that).
And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore.
lol what? Terran on a clock? You have bio and biomech and mech armies that beat anything in the right ratios. Extremely powerful drop and counterattack play with the medivac that buys incredible amounts of time to adjust your army. You have an airarmy that I can't remember to ever see lose in WoL - with the strong infestor and the weaker raven and the far longer transitioning time due to upgrades... If you have trouble with Ultras - build marauders in time. Yeah, thank god there is one unit left that can break the 30marines/minute rally. But if you think it's broken because pure marine/mine can't deal with it, I can't help you...
Aktually, i kind of agree with you in a perfect world with perfect unit control the Terran army is the best or better sayed the most cost efficient army. The Problem is to get to that army while denying 6 bases for the zerg. The margin of error with Terran is just smaller than for Z or P. And there is no way a Terran could ever surprise you because there are no tech switches and there is no other unit composition that is viable and flexible enough.
It´s the good old "Terran is the best race by far if the player is better" - crap.
widow mines are WAY harder to deal with than to play with them as T. drops got WAY harder to deal with. hellbats are literally an a-move unit. T got easier to play in HOTS while getting harder to play against. you are right for WoL but in HOTS things changed a lot.
and yeah for your specific problem with ultras. focusfire with marauders smash that. mix in some hellbats (T should start that anyway) and MMMM + hellbat will become even stronger.
On May 06 2013 19:43 Tsubbi wrote: so true, would at least like to see the level the posters are playing at
That's my profile http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/987923/1/Jay/ I'm only playing unranked these days, switching in between zerg an terran. (though after a short periode of nearly only Terran, much more zerg again) As it's unranked, you can't see my level, but I'm nearly exclusively playing masters and some diamonds, so my MMR should be considered low masters EU. (I leave a lot of games at the start if I get ZvZ and sometimes in TvT and TvP as well)
The bottom line is, I shouldn't ever argue based on my own games (from plats to master), and if I do please laugh at me and point me towards a door. When I do discuss balance, it's based on the very top level of players, as imbalances at my level just don't matter. Terran v Zerg was annoying as anything to play with under 100 APM at platinum level as you died to a-moved banes all the time. And my silver level zerg friend 1 bases a lot and dies to mass marines. But those are no reasons to claim there's anything wrong with the MU.
Edit: I do have a 92-93% win rate in Desert Strike HotS (EU), so I think I can discuss the balance there (i.e., reapers, reapers everywhere!)
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...
On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:
On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote: The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy.
Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want...
And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent.
You are talking about WOL right?
Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg.
Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore.
The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first.
Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect.
WOL=/= HotS
WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything.
There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS.
People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition).
Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used.
This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed.
no the role hasn´t changed. As a terran you are still on the clock and you have to make damage in the early game. The only difference now is that there are Ultralisk instead of BL´s.
Watch the practise session that Demuslim did against Suppy a couple of days ago. He crushed him a couple of times with super fast Ultralisks.
In my opinion the Widowmine needs a change to reduce the splash (Hellbats are the unit to build to ling/zealot) and increase the single target (maybe against massive or something like that).
And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore.
lol what? Terran on a clock? You have bio and biomech and mech armies that beat anything in the right ratios. Extremely powerful drop and counterattack play with the medivac that buys incredible amounts of time to adjust your army. You have an airarmy that I can't remember to ever see lose in WoL - with the strong infestor and the weaker raven and the far longer transitioning time due to upgrades... If you have trouble with Ultras - build marauders in time. Yeah, thank god there is one unit left that can break the 30marines/minute rally. But if you think it's broken because pure marine/mine can't deal with it, I can't help you...
Aktually, i kind of agree with you in a perfect world with perfect unit control the Terran army is the best or better sayed the most cost efficient army. The Problem is to get to that army while denying 6 bases for the zerg. The margin of error with Terran is just smaller than for Z or P. And there is no way a Terran could ever surprise you because there are no tech switches and there is no other unit composition that is viable and flexible enough.
It´s the good old "Terran is the best race by far if the player is better" - crap.
Wait... your problems is ultras. The counter to that is MMM with a 1:1 or higher marine:marauder ratio. And you say it's hard to get that army while denying 6bases for zerg... You get that army of 3-4bases at 15-18mins. I don't know which beastly zergs you play that have 6bases and ultras at that time and survived all forms of pushes and drops and hellions.
No, the Ultras are not the problem if you look at them isolated. They are expensive, need good upgrades to work and get stuck easily.
My point is that the combination of fast upgrades, fast hive, and the better zerg lategame macroability makes them a bit too strong and too easy to use compared to the usual terran army.
I´m not saying that Ultras are op i´m saying that the combination of more forgivable macro (you cant turn 5k3k overmins/gas into 15 Ultras as a terran) and the fact that Ultras don´t need that much of a support army as other T3 Units like colossus or Tempest makes them stronger as BL in WoL.
On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote: Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs.
Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...
On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote: [quote] Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point.
Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want...
And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent.
You are talking about WOL right?
Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg.
Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore.
The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first.
Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect.
WOL=/= HotS
WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything.
There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS.
People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition).
Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used.
This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed.
no the role hasn´t changed. As a terran you are still on the clock and you have to make damage in the early game. The only difference now is that there are Ultralisk instead of BL´s.
Watch the practise session that Demuslim did against Suppy a couple of days ago. He crushed him a couple of times with super fast Ultralisks.
In my opinion the Widowmine needs a change to reduce the splash (Hellbats are the unit to build to ling/zealot) and increase the single target (maybe against massive or something like that).
And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore.
lol what? Terran on a clock? You have bio and biomech and mech armies that beat anything in the right ratios. Extremely powerful drop and counterattack play with the medivac that buys incredible amounts of time to adjust your army. You have an airarmy that I can't remember to ever see lose in WoL - with the strong infestor and the weaker raven and the far longer transitioning time due to upgrades... If you have trouble with Ultras - build marauders in time. Yeah, thank god there is one unit left that can break the 30marines/minute rally. But if you think it's broken because pure marine/mine can't deal with it, I can't help you...
Aktually, i kind of agree with you in a perfect world with perfect unit control the Terran army is the best or better sayed the most cost efficient army. The Problem is to get to that army while denying 6 bases for the zerg. The margin of error with Terran is just smaller than for Z or P. And there is no way a Terran could ever surprise you because there are no tech switches and there is no other unit composition that is viable and flexible enough.
It´s the good old "Terran is the best race by far if the player is better" - crap.
Wait... your problems is ultras. The counter to that is MMM with a 1:1 or higher marine:marauder ratio. And you say it's hard to get that army while denying 6bases for zerg... You get that army of 3-4bases at 15-18mins. I don't know which beastly zergs you play that have 6bases and ultras at that time and survived all forms of pushes and drops and hellions.
My point is that the combination of fast upgrades, fast hive, and the better zerg lategame macroability makes them a bit too strong and too easy to use compared to the usual terran army.
I´m not saying that Ultras are op i´m saying that the combination of more forgivable macro (you cant turn 5k3k overmins/gas into 15 Ultras as a terran) and the fact that Ultras don´t need that much of a support army as other T3 Units like colossus or Tempest makes them stronger as BL in WoL.
Honnestly I don't see why you say "fast hive". It's really goddamn hard to have hive fast, upgrades and a good economy against a good terran. Because you need mutas to deal with drops, and banelings to not die to terran pushes, I don't see how you can do a "fast hive" in Hots. Yep you can have it at a decent timing, but not "fast with 3/3 and a lot of bases" if the terran don't screw up.
what if we added an ensnare ability to spore crawlers? only affecting air bio, we can tweak the numbers (radius/single target, speed effect slowdown, cooldown, etc.)
On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote: The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff.
But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions.
Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face.
The Queen patch was completely unnecessary for balance because TvZ at that point was extremely even and exciting to watch. I don't even remember that people were complaining about it, it was completely out of the nowhere. Originally it was +25 energy, then without communication and thorough testing they gave +2 range. While Terran certainly dominated for a longer period due to balance, the Zerg domination probably hurt SC2 more.
It wasn't exciting to watch. It was painful. Terran player would make a bunch of helions, then move on in. As someone else just pointed out, there was no tension from a T perspective. Now they at least have to think about it for a second before blindly throwing 6 or 8 helions into your base with hardly any attention paid to them.
If the Z played it perfectly, they'd be able to escape it, but so many helions can roast so many drones so quickly that it was extremely easy for it to become an uphill battle.
If hellions reached your mineral line you were doing something wrong already, so you should take dmg. That is why people had started walling off and before the patch especially. There wasn't really any issue with the hellions the reason for the change was that blizzard didn't want the _creep spread_ to be controlled so well by the terran which was also preventing the zerg from getting out from hellion contains. That lead into a free base for the zerg and droning up to full saturation if the T tried to go macro. The runbys were never really what bothered Blizzard, or atleast wasn't the motive for the patch, the zerg just needs to L2P if that was an issue for them. I don't really understand why people are critizing "droning up to 70", because that was exactly what happened after the patch, assuming the T tried to go 3rd OC. If he didn't go 3rd OC ofc the zerg had to stop a little earlier, but by that time the terran was essentially pretty allin, he had to do considerable dmg. I'd also note that the mass queen opening was already viable before the patch. It wasn't killing the hellions really, but with the amount of queens they could push abit off creep to get the creep tumors down behind them. The patch was essentially Blizzard trying to force the metagame to shift, which had terrible effects on the best MU in WoL.
I really don't think ZvT was ever the best matchup in WoL :/ It was basically the Terran doing the same thing every game and the Zerg being on the back foot until about 15+ minutes if the game lasted that long. You know that all these things you say about Z are true for T as well. Terran can just scv up to 70 unless the Zerg doesn't take a 3rd in which case the zerg is pretty all in anyway. You know how hard it is to do damage before lategame without going all in as Zerg? You only have melee units essentially (hydras are pretty ineffective againt terran and roach have such short range) and you are against Tanks Mines and Hellbats right now, all of which destroy units that cluster together, which happen to be small melee units. So basically we have to sit back and let you macro or wait for you to come out and attack us.
Terran can go full macro till 70SCVs free? Have you played ladder or watched streams lately? DemusliM suffered this TvZ 2 days ago.Every single TvZ was facing Roach-ling,Roach bane, or ling baneling NOT ALL IN.It was only 7-10 min aggression.Nowadays there is the 2 base mass roach into 3rd aggresion at almos 12 mins with non stop roach.TErran need to expand with reactor hellion or reaper hellion into 3 CCs to try outrmacro the Zerg who is totally free to take his 3rd without any fear.You cant punish that 3rd neither deny it with only 6-8 hellions.Neither runbies are possible due to the evo/spine/queen wall and deny creep is expose your hellions to the 2-3 queendraliks shots. Zerg was never back in the first 15 mins.Every Master Zerg is maxed at 14 mins ready to deny drops or the Terrans 3rd,preparing the Hive transition to Greater Spire or Ultralisks
Yep it was hyperbole just like it is to say that Zerg can drone to 70. See how worthless it is to say that kind of thing?
On May 07 2013 03:33 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: Blinding cloud on spores, I'm a genius !
this brings up a point in my mind. i'm not sure how i feel about the viper given the metagame is still developing but i must say it looks to be turning out like a weird unit, similar to how the raven was in WoL
I am a little more worried about widow mines. Something a few friends and I were debating is, if you have detection in the area, widow mines should not be able to go off. Before I get crucified, think about it. Terran would have to micro to kill an overseer and then all widow mines would go off making them high risk/high reward. But that is just my two cents.
On May 07 2013 04:49 AyMnRSC2 wrote: I am a little more worried about widow mines. Something a few friends and I were debating is, if you have detection in the area, widow mines should not be able to go off. Before I get crucified, think about it. Terran would have to micro to kill an overseer and then all widow mines would go off making them high risk/high reward. But that is just my two cents.
In TvT you just chain scan and they never ever go off.
Oracle buff approved by a top masters Terran <~ me.
Oracle is easy to shut down with 6 marines. No need for vikings or med or anything. Or a quick mine can kill it easily.
If you have problems dealing with Oracles it's probably your lack of proper counter, no offense. We've not seen oracle being used in Korean pro scenes 90% of PvT. It's easy to defend early on and impossible to use in mid-late games because it's so slow that stimmed Marines can kill it rather quickly.
Buffed Oracle is just another version of muta or boost medivacs. It will take time to deal with the change but eventually Terran and Zerg will adapt.
Even if you think what I'm saying is non-sense, it's a fact that Oracle is not being used in Korean pro level. It needs a buff to be ever have a chance of being used.
Tips: You can defend proxy oracles with any build. for example, if you went reaper first build a reactor right after the first reaper. after scouting P's base, check their first expo with it 1 min later. if there is no expo, build a Turret at least. With other builds like no rax expo, it's a piece of cake as you will have 7 marines when proxy oracle hits.
Really, if you know how to counter oracle is useless in TvP as of now.
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Lol that is false. I dislike the change as well, however you can make 1 mistake and lose a hatchery and its game over. Which is lame
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote: Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking. Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Well, there is a pretty big difference. In BW muta vs muta was more like muta/scourge battles--which is akin to ling/bane (and is very exciting). SC2 has no such air-baneling; therefor the only option is to just crash mutas into each other rather than have intense splitting/baiting and other awesome things going on.
On May 09 2013 01:52 highsis wrote: Oracle buff approved by a top masters Terran <~ me.
Oracle is easy to shut down with 6 marines. No need for vikings or med or anything. Or a quick mine can kill it easily.
If you have problems dealing with Oracles it's probably your lack of proper counter, no offense. We've not seen oracle being used in Korean pro scenes 90% of PvT. It's easy to defend early on and impossible to use in mid-late games because it's so slow that stimmed Marines can kill it rather quickly.
Buffed Oracle is just another version of muta or boost medivacs. It will take time to deal with the change but eventually Terran and Zerg will adapt.
Even if you think what I'm saying is non-sense, it's a fact that Oracle is not being used in Korean pro level. It needs a buff to be ever have a chance of being used.
Tips: You can defend proxy oracles with any build. for example, if you went reaper first build a reactor right after the first reaper. after scouting P's base, check their first expo with it 1 min later. if there is no expo, build a Turret at least. With other builds like no rax expo, it's a piece of cake as you will have 7 marines when proxy oracle hits.
Really, if you know how to counter oracle is useless in TvP as of now.
There's also the fact that Terran has a strategy that's just as devastating as proxy Oracle - gas first proxy factory. It's pretty much the exact same strategy in terms of risk/reward. It's very hard to scout, and Protoss can scout it significantly in advance and still not have enough time to do anything. However, if it does get beaten and you don't do damage, you've basically lost the game.
Just like the early ebay, it has to be blind countered by sacrificing econ through chain-chrono boosting warpgates instead of probes. Otherwise the 4 hellions will arrive at your ramp before you have warpgates. Standard play has Protoss put their first stalker at the Terran's natural or xelnaga tower to watch for aggression, so you have nothing to shoot at them with. Even if you made a sentry, that only stalls for 15 seconds and you still won't have warpgates, after that they can just drive in and kill all your probes.