You can start this discussion based on one fact. Love em' or hate em', team EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team. Their ideology can be applied to any sport or hobby that generates income based on marketing. They take the most sought after individuals in a community and stamp a brand on them that raises their value, even after the fact.
As a person who has followed the eSports scene for over a decade now. I can't help but think the rise of Evil Geniuses is exactly what this community needs. Don't get me wrong, Evil Geniuses has always been a force in the North American esports scene. But, it was never quite as marketable and dominant as it is in the SC2 scene now. Earlier memories of EG are their CS team that always stood in the shadow of other foreign teams like Complexity and 3D.
How is it different now than it was then? The only thing that would make sense is the obvious thing in business. They made the right decisions at the right time. Number one on that list was picking up Greg 'IdrA' Fields early on. Greg was an enormous personality (still is) early on in the game. Whether it be from his results at MLG or from his character that seemed to attract lovers and haters alike. He is big. People like to watch Greg because he was a top contender in the scene at the time. On top of it all, they never knew what they were going to get from him. Lets face it, a vast majority of people follow Greg and its not always to see him win.
Pair good business decisions with great timing and it seemed like the evolution of Team EG was bound for success. They have an organization that could essentially never net a single result and still command a larger following of fans than most (if not all) Korean and foreign teams. I understand Korea and their fans are the father of this scene. But, what has it done for foreigners so far? Brood War had a foreign scene, no where near as massive as the Korean scene. What did it do for eSports globally? Looking back in the scope of things, not much. You could argue that without the Korean Brood War scene, none of this would be possible. Those people would be 100% correct. But, that doesn't subdue the fact that the numbers dwindled in the foreign scene; Different cultures, different interests- fair enough. But, we NEED foreign teams like EG to expand our scene.
But, what do we want as fans? The stage has been set for a surge in this industry that we haven't seen before (Twitch.tv, smart televsions, generations growing up playing video games). We have more odds stacked in our favor now than we ever have. The idea of watching a pro gamer isn't exactly as taboo as it used to be. Blizzard getting involved may of screwed things up with tournament structures right now. However, that doesn't change the fact that these cooperate giants in the game industry are starting to support the idea of eSports a bit more actively, which is absolutely paramount for its success. Soon television programming may not be the goal, since getting a spot on TV may be unrealistic. The evolution of technology seems to be heading in the direction of internet based television. The marketing is the same and its going to be cheaper and more readily available to eSports based on the age of a growing technology, while being able to cover the demographic that has the most interest and easiest access. As a whole, whether it be through LoL or SC2 views on twitch.tv are on a significant rise.
We could literally be on the cusp of a paradigm change. That still doesn't make the future of eSports even remotely close to a guaranteed success. We still need to have those teams who can be marketable. In the end, this can't just be about players watching professionals. There needs to be attraction to the scene based on players and teams. There needs to be that same structure we see in successful entertainment now. It may be enough for us that people are playing SC2, but will it be enough for the person who hasn't?
This is where a team like Evil Geniuses excels. They are the definition of marketable. They may not have the quality of player, as a whole, that you see on Korean teams (there are exceptions). What do they have the most of though? Players you WANT to watch. You may want to see them win, you may want to see them fail. But, you want to see them. Thats the difference between Evil Geniuses and any Korean team. Koreans draw you in with their skill, EG draws you in with their personalities. A person observing this community can't help but notice EG understands the same thing, which is the bigger picture.They have the means to contract the biggest personalities and they do so. The charisma of their players shine through any performance, or lack there of.
For eSports to break those barriers, we need more personalities and teams like EG. We need to catch that 'WWF' persona, in a sense. You don't always watch it for the action. You watch it to see whats going to happen next. Could you imagine another team with the resources and pool of personality EG has in eSports? It could only stand to attract those viewers who've never seen SC2 before. Hell, it could even spawn a realty television series.
In the end, its pretty obvious. The TL community will watch SC2 to see players who are great at the game. But, those aren't the only people we need to consider. As a whole, we need to attract those viewers who wouldn't typically just turn on a SC2 tournament.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I'm an idiot or how you agree!
i'm not really sure what kind of discussion you hope to start with this. a pro/contra EG thread? or just a general justification and defense of EG and what they do?
On May 08 2013 01:16 qotsager wrote: i'm not really sure what kind of discussion you hope to start with this. a pro/contra EG thread? or just a general justification and defense of EG and what they do?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I'm an idiot or how you agree!
Don't think I need read further than the first line.
EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team.
In one sense, you're correct. However, in the context of the fact that they're trying to compete in this game, you're 100% wrong. EG had favored content production and selling their players/themselves as a brand. If you're looking to generate income based upon sponsorships and such, this is a fine model. But what would someone say if the Yankees were losing every game, but still had a sick roster and sponsors? They'd probably say it didn't add up. I say "had favored" because as we know, EG moves now to San Fransisco to -allegedly- focus themselves more on practice and raising the skill of their players. Unfortunately, I expect similar results to that which the Lair in AZ produced, which was none at all in the scheme of things.
I wish EG the best and I truly hope this SF move refocuses their players and resources to push their results forward; but as of now, they're a marketable brand, not a championship team.
Also, this thread is going to be terrible and turn into a shit-flinging contest. Don't expect it to stick around for too long.
On May 08 2013 01:16 qotsager wrote: i'm not really sure what kind of discussion you hope to start with this. a pro/contra EG thread? or just a general justification and defense of EG and what they do?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I'm an idiot or how you agree!
Why the hell would we want to do that? You are just inviting a pro vs anti-EG war by leaving a directionless post. Your post should have a point of discussion behind it, not just leave it open for people to write their opinions on EG.
On May 08 2013 01:16 qotsager wrote: i'm not really sure what kind of discussion you hope to start with this. a pro/contra EG thread? or just a general justification and defense of EG and what they do?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I'm an idiot or how you agree!
Why the hell would we want to do that? You are just inviting a pro vs anti-EG war by leaving a directionless post. Your post should have a point of discussion behind it, not just leave it open for people to write their opinions on EG.
I'm sorry if you can't understand the discussion behind the post. You don't need to reply anymore.
I agree wholeheartedly. For people's convenience, TLDR: EG is not a skilled team, but it's a great business.
In any business, it's never about the product anyway (in this case: players' skills) It's about how you market the product, the image, the brand, the publicity..
Good food ain't gonna sell if people don't know about your restaurant.
On May 08 2013 01:16 qotsager wrote: i'm not really sure what kind of discussion you hope to start with this. a pro/contra EG thread? or just a general justification and defense of EG and what they do?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I'm an idiot or how you agree!
Why the hell would we want to do that? You are just inviting a pro vs anti-EG war by leaving a directionless post. Your post should have a point of discussion behind it, not just leave it open for people to write their opinions on EG.
I'm sorry if you can't understand the discussion behind the post. You don't need to reply anymore.
Spare the forums your ignorance. There's clearly absolutely no topic up for discussion, just a dick-measuring contest between EG fans and haters. That's not a discussion anyone should care enough to have. You don't need to post anymore.
On May 08 2013 01:16 qotsager wrote: i'm not really sure what kind of discussion you hope to start with this. a pro/contra EG thread? or just a general justification and defense of EG and what they do?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I'm an idiot or how you agree!
Why the hell would we want to do that? You are just inviting a pro vs anti-EG war by leaving a directionless post. Your post should have a point of discussion behind it, not just leave it open for people to write their opinions on EG.
I'm sorry if you can't understand the discussion behind the post. You don't need to reply anymore.
Spare the forums your ignorance. There's clearly absolutely no topic up for discussion, just a dick-measuring contest between EG fans and haters. That's not a discussion anyone should care enough to have. You don't need to post anymore.
I'm a bit confused. If its not a discussion you want to have, then why'd you reply intelligently to it?
I think you're definitely right in that charisma plays a big role. Whenever Idra plays you have as many as ten thousand people watching his stream (if I recall correctly), even if he isn't necessarily as successful these days as he used to be.
But I think we should ensure that it remains a secondary focus, not the primary one. Because if people are watching players like Idra or Destiny just because of their colorful personalities, then the business model of esports isn't about the game anymore and just becomes a bit of a joke, in that people will just watch for moments of rage or witty commentary, or because a person is generally funny. At that point it has nothing to do with esports, its just about watching funny people play a game (the game doesn't matter).
For example that's actually the primary reason I watch day9, particularly on fridays or mondays. Most of the time I find sc2 games lackluster and boring because they follow a very standardized pattern of gameplay, but his commentary is hilarious, and I love all of his personal stories.
I think it also extends to casters; lots of people love watching incontrol and think he's a funny guy, but we should try to keep in mind that your knowledge about the game comes first, comedy second. Otherwise its just bizarre in that you are watching a comedy routine in a totally wrong setting.
Edit: Also I'm not even sure if the people above me read your post. He's asking whether we need more charsimatic, WWE type personalities in the game in order to make esports more popular. Stop with the insults, just read the final two paragraphs. That basically summarizes it. This is absolutely not a "dick measuring contest" between EG fans and haters, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion!
Yeah, EG prefers player with big personality and big fanbase :D From this perspective, they made a big mistake: Not able to renew the contract with Grubby (he was there from 2008 - march2011).
On May 08 2013 01:31 radscorpion9 wrote: I think you're definitely right in that charisma plays a big role. Whenever Idra plays you have as many as ten thousand people watching his stream (if I recall correctly), even if he isn't necessarily as successful these days as he used to be.
But I think we should ensure that it remains a secondary focus, not the primary one. Because if people are watching players like Idra or Destiny just because of their colorful personalities, then the business model of esports isn't about the game anymore and just becomes a bit of a joke, in that people will just watch for moments of rage or witty commentary, or because a person is generally funny. At that point it has nothing to do with esports, its just about watching funny people play a game (the game doesn't matter).
For example that's actually the primary reason I watch day9, particularly on fridays or mondays. Most of the time I find sc2 games lackluster and boring because they follow a very standardized pattern of gameplay, but his commentary is hilarious, and I love all of his personal stories.
I think it also extends to casters; lots of people love watching incontrol and think he's a funny guy, but we should try to keep in mind that your knowledge about the game comes first, comedy second. Otherwise its just bizarre in that you are watching a comedy routine in a totally wrong setting.
Edit: Also I'm not even sure if the people above me read your post. He's asking whether we need more charsimatic, WWE type personalities in the game in order to make esports more popular. Stop with the insults, just read the final two paragraphs. That basically summarizes it.
Its a pretty good point. I think it should remain secondary. I just sit back and watch these tournaments sometimes and think about the outlets that are available for random people to watch them now. You can't help but ask yourself if what we have now in eSports is enough to sustain a large following. I'm not talking about competing with major sports. Just something more, expanding the horizons of the scene.
The only thing I could think of is by adding more personalty to the scene. It seems like EG understands what its going to take for the scene to evolve past where its at right now.
On May 08 2013 01:19 DiMano wrote: I do not like teams that buy the best players from other teams to artificially become the best. EG has killed TSL and I hate them for this so much.
TSL killed TSL by having great players but not taking proper care of them. EG rescued their players from obscurity and evitable failure by offering better, living wages.
When are esports fans going to get it? Offering players a living wage is not 'a bonus' for having a competitive and sustainable team. IT'S THE PREREQUISITE.
the sad thing is that they make money by holding monster cans in the camera, not by playing well. companies jsut want to get exposure, thats why they hire "teams" like this one because they get a lot of attention, not because they play well. and then the sponsors say that they support esports :D
I wish EG was a great team, indeed, but in reality it tends to be more the team of have-beens rather than the team of are-nows. But I agree with your main argument, yes, entertaining teams are very useful to bring new people to esports. For example, MC is a player that I've personally seen to catch the eye of viewers who've never seen SC2 before. We need more fellows like him.
EG is a well ran machine, of course they can improve in some areas, like all teams. My biggest complaint about EG, is they are very much like the Dallas Cowboys, or the New York Yankees. Both organizations are great. But both buy top tier talent instead of foster to grow it. But with that kind of talent they lack results once they sign to EG. Suppy is the exception, and frankly suppy may be one of the top 3 foreigner players on the team right now. EG is also very good at player exposure, and sponsor exposure. Lets take idra for example. Right now the guy is not a great player. But he is valuable because he draws viewers in and those viewers see the ads for the sponsors of EG. EG management seems to be more focused on exposing sponsors, before player results. Yes they did hire Park and beef up the Korea team. And add a great LoL team. But all of these moves do lead to greater sponsor exposure.
On May 08 2013 01:31 radscorpion9 wrote: I think you're definitely right in that charisma plays a big role. Whenever Idra plays you have as many as ten thousand people watching his stream (if I recall correctly), even if he isn't necessarily as successful these days as he used to be.
But I think we should ensure that it remains a secondary focus, not the primary one. Because if people are watching players like Idra or Destiny just because of their colorful personalities, then the business model of esports isn't about the game anymore and just becomes a bit of a joke, in that people will just watch for moments of rage or witty commentary, or because a person is generally funny. At that point it has nothing to do with esports, its just about watching funny people play a game (the game doesn't matter).
For example that's actually the primary reason I watch day9, particularly on fridays or mondays. Most of the time I find sc2 games lackluster and boring because they follow a very standardized pattern of gameplay, but his commentary is hilarious, and I love all of his personal stories.
I think it also extends to casters; lots of people love watching incontrol and think he's a funny guy, but we should try to keep in mind that your knowledge about the game comes first, comedy second. Otherwise its just bizarre in that you are watching a comedy routine in a totally wrong setting.
Edit: Also I'm not even sure if the people above me read your post. He's asking whether we need more charsimatic, WWE type personalities in the game in order to make esports more popular. Stop with the insults, just read the final two paragraphs. That basically summarizes it. This is absolutely not a "dick measuring contest" between EG fans and haters, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion!
Fair, but I'm pretty sure EG's a business and when a team is a business, its primary focus won't be to win and be the best. Sure it'll be one of their goals, but then if you're the best player in the world but no one knows about u, how is it gonna make u money?
It's better to have a lesser product with a wider audience than a better product with very few audience. EG already has a very wide following, now if they can 'better' their skills and actually become one of the top teams, then their popularity would skyrocket.
Example: Dendi from Navi (Dota 2) - Likes to joke around, trolls people, dances, dorky, but considered by many as the best player..
Let's be real. People watch people because of their personality. If you're a fuckin genius, but your personality sucks, who'd like u? No one..
Oh boy, this thread's gonna end well, i'm sure about that.
To add to the "discussion", i like EG because they have outstanding players like Demuslim, inControl, Idra and Machine. Not outstanding because of the results, but because of their character.
On May 08 2013 01:46 graNite wrote: the sad thing is that they make money by holding monster cans in the camera, not by playing well. companies jsut want to get exposure, thats why they hire "teams" like this one because they get a lot of attention, not because they play well. and then the sponsors say that they support esports :D
I'd say: "welcome to real life".. but i'll be less of an asshole and say.. that's how marketing operates.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: You can start this discussion based on one fact. Love em' or hate em', team EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team.
There is a difference between professionalism and commercialism, and it's the latter that applies here. I like EG, I like most their players and representatives. If I think that they have the best model to produce the best players is not only debatable but also, in fact, something I really doubt and disagree upon.
EG has found a really good place for what they want to be for now and who knows, maybe, in the future they will change.
On May 08 2013 01:35 Dingodile wrote: Yeah, EG prefers player with big personality and big fanbase :D From this perspective, they made a big mistake: Not able to renew the contract with Grubby (he was there from 2008 - march2011).
The only way I can explain this slip-up is by Grubby having demands that were reasonable during the duration of the contract but unreasonable at the point of signing the contract.
If Grubby promises, he will deliver (as he did), but EG can't build a business on promises.
I don't mean any offense but i think this is something you should discuss in your blog rather than in a TL thread. As is, Starcraft 2 has a following that surprises me to this day.
This is a simple idea, but you don't need an entire team to be marketable and to benefit the rise & growth of the scene.
Looking at the money that KeSPA's SKT1 had available to pay PartinG pay 70k, my first thought was honestly "Wow, and EG can afford six figure salaries for some of their players." EG is the only foreign team that has made the same kind of bank as KeSPA teams because they market better. Say whatever you want about them being corporate slaves or shamelessly promoting Monster or Razer or whatever, but I think that's what we need to see more of for esports to take off. I'm not as keen on the idea of Starcraft on TV; this is an innovative form of entertainment and there's no reason to go from a format that lets you watch from wherever and whenever you want to having it at set times in locations where a set has to be established. All of my limited information on the topics comes from here: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/technology/personaltech/video-gaming-on-the-pro-tour-for-glory-but-little-gold.html?_r=0
On May 08 2013 01:19 DiMano wrote: I do not like teams that buy the best players from other teams to artificially become the best. EG has killed TSL and I hate them for this so much.
Polt leaving killed TSL, EG just cannibalized the corpse.
On May 08 2013 01:46 graNite wrote: the sad thing is that they make money by holding monster cans in the camera, not by playing well. companies jsut want to get exposure, thats why they hire "teams" like this one because they get a lot of attention, not because they play well. and then the sponsors say that they support esports :D
At my law firm, we get paid more money the worst the case goes for our client(in general, and its not our fault, all cases are not winners). The more messed up, complicated or difficult the case, the more money we make. Also, we make a ton off of simple things, like sending letters on behalf of our client.
In business, there is not direct relation between effort, success and the amount of money that business makes. Professional sports teams can lose for the year and still make a lot of money.
On May 08 2013 01:46 graNite wrote: the sad thing is that they make money by holding monster cans in the camera, not by playing well. companies jsut want to get exposure, thats why they hire "teams" like this one because they get a lot of attention, not because they play well. and then the sponsors say that they support esports :D
At my law firm, we get paid more money the worst the case goes for our client(in general, and its not our fault, all cases are not winners). The more messed up, complicated or difficult the case, the more money we make. Also, we make a ton off of simple things, like sending letters on behalf of our client.
In business, there is not direct relation between effort, success and the amount of money that business makes. Professional sports teams can lose for the year and still make a lot of money.
i was talking as an esports fan; i want to watch the best players playing incredibly good games. eg just buys players when they are at their highest popularity to higher their own even more.
On May 08 2013 01:46 graNite wrote: the sad thing is that they make money by holding monster cans in the camera, not by playing well. companies jsut want to get exposure, thats why they hire "teams" like this one because they get a lot of attention, not because they play well. and then the sponsors say that they support esports :D
At my law firm, we get paid more money the worst the case goes for our client(in general, and its not our fault, all cases are not winners). The more messed up, complicated or difficult the case, the more money we make. Also, we make a ton off of simple things, like sending letters on behalf of our client.
In business, there is not direct relation between effort, success and the amount of money that business makes. Professional sports teams can lose for the year and still make a lot of money.
i was talking as an esports fan; i want to watch the best players playing incredibly good games. eg just buys players when they are at their highest popularity to higher their own even more.
Exactly. But, you play Starcraft 2, right? I'm the same way.
EG is opening themselves up for appeal to a larger audience from their personalities. There is no doubt that as players most of us want to see the best players and the best games. But, what do you think would appeal more to that audience who has never seen a pro SC2 match?
For a game to be successful as an esport, we need there to be more viewers than players. Viewers who arent players want something to relate to when it comes to watching a player, be it their history in the game or their personality. It therefor makes a lot more sense to recruit popular players, because the only time they won't be worth anything for your team is when there arent any viewers; and then you might as well not have a team at all.
On May 08 2013 01:46 graNite wrote: the sad thing is that they make money by holding monster cans in the camera, not by playing well. companies jsut want to get exposure, thats why they hire "teams" like this one because they get a lot of attention, not because they play well. and then the sponsors say that they support esports :D
At my law firm, we get paid more money the worst the case goes for our client(in general, and its not our fault, all cases are not winners). The more messed up, complicated or difficult the case, the more money we make. Also, we make a ton off of simple things, like sending letters on behalf of our client.
In business, there is not direct relation between effort, success and the amount of money that business makes. Professional sports teams can lose for the year and still make a lot of money.
i was talking as an esports fan; i want to watch the best players playing incredibly good games. eg just buys players when they are at their highest popularity to higher their own even more.
But EG has highly skilled players Korean players that are making a hard fought comeback in Proleague. Demuslim is one of the best players in the AM region right now and just qualified for WSC challenger. Jaedong took 4th at Dreamhack a few weeks ago. HUK made it to the round of 16 at Dreamhack and got knocked out by GuMiho, like almost every other non-Korean at Dreamhack.
I am not really seeing the argument that their players do not put up results compared to other AM or foreign teams, especially recently. And pointing Incontrol isn't a good argument, either. The team and Incontrol have said a number of times that he has more of a PR roll and just keeps his foot in the competitive scene.
The only time I watch EG is proleague or the occasional Jaedong or Suppy stream. Other than that, I've totally divested myself from their brand in every way. I don't approve of Idra's behaviour. I don't approve of Incontrol's behaviour. I don't approve of their business ideology. I don't approve of them whining at blizzard for not inviting ANOTHER one of their players, demuslim, when EG already got the more invites than most teams. I don't approve of how they take the best players in the scene and run them into the ground.
Is it the "dirty cash" syndrome, where the money makes someone stop working hard? Is it simply the lack of proper training - is coach park and the korea house the answer? Is there a direction change in the future with all the players leaving the Arizona house for cali? Idra's mentality poisoned mine for over a year, Will he ever grow up?
I don't know, but I've made a conscious decision not to support them as little as possible. I consciously avoid buying products from their sponsors, avoid watching their streams, even avoid big tournaments if their players are playing and the match isn't a "must watch" for me. Love them or hate them, do what you need to do. I've come to hate them so I try not to let them monetize me as a "fan".
On May 08 2013 01:46 graNite wrote: the sad thing is that they make money by holding monster cans in the camera, not by playing well. companies jsut want to get exposure, thats why they hire "teams" like this one because they get a lot of attention, not because they play well. and then the sponsors say that they support esports :D
At my law firm, we get paid more money the worst the case goes for our client(in general, and its not our fault, all cases are not winners). The more messed up, complicated or difficult the case, the more money we make. Also, we make a ton off of simple things, like sending letters on behalf of our client.
In business, there is not direct relation between effort, success and the amount of money that business makes. Professional sports teams can lose for the year and still make a lot of money.
i was talking as an esports fan; i want to watch the best players playing incredibly good games. eg just buys players when they are at their highest popularity to higher their own even more.
But EG has highly skilled players Korean players that are making a hard fought comeback in Proleague. Demuslim is one of the best players in the AM region right now and just qualified for WSC challenger. Jaedong took 4th at Dreamhack a few weeks ago. HUK made it to the round of 16 at Dreamhack and got knocked out by GuMiho, like almost every other non-Korean at Dreamhack.
I am not really seeing the argument that their players do not put up results compared to other AM or foreign teams, especially recently. And pointing Incontrol isn't a good argument, either. The team and Incontrol have said a number of times that he has more of a PR roll and just keeps his foot in the competitive scene.
EG has signed some really top notch players, no doubt there. Have the players they signed developed further skillwise while being signed with EG? I would say no personally. This is probably the main reason that people have problems with EG; they sign the already established players and do not seem to develop any talent themselves or develop the talent the already possess.
Personally for me I am pretty neutral on EG, I only watch gsl in sc2 and they do not have much to do with that :p
I don't really see the point. Like you just name the obvious (e.g. why eg is so successful, how you can't attract people outside the game just by skillful play etc.). I mean it's a nice write up of where esports is and why it's good that we have a team like eg, but I don't really see anything to discuss.
Personally I couldn't care less about persoanlity but about skill in the game itself so I don't care much for most of egs players.
On May 08 2013 01:46 graNite wrote: the sad thing is that they make money by holding monster cans in the camera, not by playing well. companies jsut want to get exposure, thats why they hire "teams" like this one because they get a lot of attention, not because they play well. and then the sponsors say that they support esports :D
At my law firm, we get paid more money the worst the case goes for our client(in general, and its not our fault, all cases are not winners). The more messed up, complicated or difficult the case, the more money we make. Also, we make a ton off of simple things, like sending letters on behalf of our client.
In business, there is not direct relation between effort, success and the amount of money that business makes. Professional sports teams can lose for the year and still make a lot of money.
i was talking as an esports fan; i want to watch the best players playing incredibly good games. eg just buys players when they are at their highest popularity to higher their own even more.
But EG has highly skilled players Korean players that are making a hard fought comeback in Proleague. Demuslim is one of the best players in the AM region right now and just qualified for WSC challenger. Jaedong took 4th at Dreamhack a few weeks ago. HUK made it to the round of 16 at Dreamhack and got knocked out by GuMiho, like almost every other non-Korean at Dreamhack.
I am not really seeing the argument that their players do not put up results compared to other AM or foreign teams, especially recently. And pointing Incontrol isn't a good argument, either. The team and Incontrol have said a number of times that he has more of a PR roll and just keeps his foot in the competitive scene.
EG has signed some really top notch players, no doubt there. Have the players they signed developed further skillwise while being signed with EG? I would say no personally. This is probably the main reason that people have problems with EG; they sign the already established players and do not seem to develop any talent themselves or develop the talent the already possess.
Personally for me I am pretty neutral on EG, I only watch gsl in sc2 and they do not have much to do with that :p
That is a really subjective argument. I could make the same for TL and its players. Then we could go back and forth for hours on who improved more and if the team was responsible for that improvement or it was just the player. At the end of the argument, neither of us would have proven anything.
Alex Garfield did say he should have gotten a coach in the lair day from day one and regretted not doing so. Hiring Coach Park was a huge step forward to helping their players. And Coach Park doesn't come cheap. If a team doesn't care about developing talent, they don't hire Coach Park.
i think theyre not only about personalities, what about Alive, Jeadong, JYP, Oz, Revival, Stephano, Thorzain? They are really good players.
And i still believe Idra is playing very well and i expect him to do really good in tournaments in the future. Just check WCS wednesday and you will see. I think he's still at the top.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: team EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team.
Your second sentence made me laugh out loud. How the heck am I going to even bother reading your wall of text let alone take you seriously when I cannot even get through the first paragraph?
EG is in the SC2 scene what Bayern is in the Bundesliga which is the reason why I hate them but you can't deny that their business model is the currently most successful one out there and that without a team like that we wouldn't be where we're at now.
Just a quick bit for those who don't understand the discussion. I
I left it sort of open ended to have a discussion on a wider basis. Some people seemed to of gotten it right on, but others did not. I should of made it a bit more clear, but it would of defied response I was looking for from people.
Thanks for those who read it through and gave me replies!
On May 08 2013 01:46 graNite wrote: the sad thing is that they make money by holding monster cans in the camera, not by playing well. companies jsut want to get exposure, thats why they hire "teams" like this one because they get a lot of attention, not because they play well. and then the sponsors say that they support esports :D
At my law firm, we get paid more money the worst the case goes for our client(in general, and its not our fault, all cases are not winners). The more messed up, complicated or difficult the case, the more money we make. Also, we make a ton off of simple things, like sending letters on behalf of our client.
In business, there is not direct relation between effort, success and the amount of money that business makes. Professional sports teams can lose for the year and still make a lot of money.
i was talking as an esports fan; i want to watch the best players playing incredibly good games. eg just buys players when they are at their highest popularity to higher their own even more.
But EG has highly skilled players Korean players that are making a hard fought comeback in Proleague. Demuslim is one of the best players in the AM region right now and just qualified for WSC challenger. Jaedong took 4th at Dreamhack a few weeks ago. HUK made it to the round of 16 at Dreamhack and got knocked out by GuMiho, like almost every other non-Korean at Dreamhack.
I am not really seeing the argument that their players do not put up results compared to other AM or foreign teams, especially recently. And pointing Incontrol isn't a good argument, either. The team and Incontrol have said a number of times that he has more of a PR roll and just keeps his foot in the competitive scene.
EG has signed some really top notch players, no doubt there. Have the players they signed developed further skillwise while being signed with EG? I would say no personally. This is probably the main reason that people have problems with EG; they sign the already established players and do not seem to develop any talent themselves or develop the talent the already possess.
Personally for me I am pretty neutral on EG, I only watch gsl in sc2 and they do not have much to do with that :p
It's a weird generalization to say EG players have not developed skillwise. DeMuslim, Suppy, JYP, Jaedong, and Revival are all much better than they were prior to signing (Jaedong was signed before he really adjusted to SC2, so that may be moot). Alive and Oz were both picked up when they were stagnating as players, and are arguably seeing a resurgence in scene relevance.
Sure, there are a good number of players that didn't maintain scene dominance, but absolutely no team has every single player stay at their peak. The whole "EG Curse" thing was a fallacy back in 2012, but it's even more pointless in 2013.
On May 08 2013 01:19 DiMano wrote: I do not like teams that buy the best players from other teams to artificially become the best. EG has killed TSL and I hate them for this so much.
Huh...
The only player EG took from TSL is PuMa. JYP and Revival left the team for a while before they were picked up by EG.
I would say that most people would agree Polt's departure had by far the biggest impact on TSL in any case.
I think a fundamental problem is how the community wants to see the progamers as very hard working athletes who aim to break their upper limit for 8 hours a day and a team will provide the coaching to point out their strengths and weaknesses.
In reality such a model is not viable: progamers need to take on the task of drawing in a crowd and be part of a marketing machine to sustain the progaming model.
On May 08 2013 04:23 Hikari wrote: I think a fundamental problem is how the community wants to see the progamers as very hard working athletes who aim to break their upper limit for 8 hours a day and a team will provide the coaching to point out their strengths and weaknesses.
In reality such a model is not viable: progamers need to take on the task of drawing in a crowd and be part of a marketing machine to sustain the progaming model.
Wrong thats the problem that foreign teams have and thiswhy have no success.
On May 08 2013 01:16 qotsager wrote: i'm not really sure what kind of discussion you hope to start with this. a pro/contra EG thread? or just a general justification and defense of EG and what they do?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I'm an idiot or how you agree!
i feel like this issue/controversy has been discussed COUNTLESS times, by lovers and haters. I'm not sure whether it is ethical to focus on one team and critique what they do and discuss what right and wrong they are.
On May 08 2013 04:23 Hikari wrote: I think a fundamental problem is how the community wants to see the progamers as very hard working athletes who aim to break their upper limit for 8 hours a day and a team will provide the coaching to point out their strengths and weaknesses.
In reality such a model is not viable: progamers need to take on the task of drawing in a crowd and be part of a marketing machine to sustain the progaming model.
Wrong thats the problem that foreign teams have and thiswhy have no success.
You may be right. But, it depends on how you gauge success. If you're measuring the players, then yes, success is unusual for foreign teams. But, I think for this industry to mature in the western world, there needs to be more marketability. There are probably a lot of people who would be naturally gifted at SC2 and could have the discipline to compete with Koreans. The problem being is there is little in the way of motivation aside from the idea of being a pro gamer.
There are few foreign pro gamers who can take care of themselves based on their career of choice. I think making pro gaming a 'safer' career option could only stand to help in the western world.
Lets face it, it will never be a sure bet. But, being a pro athlete isn't a very safe bet either. There is always risk, but the risk at least has a chance of paying off in a big way as a pro athlete. In its current state, eSports have very little materials to pay off those players who are willing to make that sacrifice. EG is one of those few teams who are rumored to pay their players enough to live.
I guess what I'm saying is this.. would you put school aside? career? life? to put in the hours it takes to compete with these guys with nothing more than a hope at becoming good enough to make a team like EG so you can support yourself? Thats why having more teams that can market their players and expand this industry are important, because it opens the door for players to start taking this seriously.
On May 08 2013 04:23 Hikari wrote: I think a fundamental problem is how the community wants to see the progamers as very hard working athletes who aim to break their upper limit for 8 hours a day and a team will provide the coaching to point out their strengths and weaknesses.
In reality such a model is not viable: progamers need to take on the task of drawing in a crowd and be part of a marketing machine to sustain the pro gaming model.
I don't think it is a problem. You look at the kespa teams, they train ridiculously hard every single day and give up everything for a single goal - to be the best. EG doesn't do that, they have contracts for streaming, they have contracts with their sponsors to make sure advertising parameters are met. This has an impact on their play and it's visible. Proleague was a perfect example of this. It's not that I don't like EG or I'm saying they don't work hard, they just do things differently.
On May 08 2013 02:55 Diddywhop wrote: Just a quick bit for those who don't understand the discussion. I
I left it sort of open ended to have a discussion on a wider basis. Some people seemed to of gotten it right on, but others did not. I should of made it a bit more clear, but it would of defied response I was looking for from people.
Thanks for those who read it through and gave me replies!
Appreciate it.
Just because you don't agree with the discussion's direction doesn't mean that you should take steps to eliminate it.
Like a good author does with a book, you shouldn't tell people that this is how it is; you should point people towards a topic of discussion and then just leave it alone, no matter where it goes. Give both sides of the argument in the OP, because if you don't, then people will make an argument.
Most notably, it's the second sentence...
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: team EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team.
...which sets up your entire nine paragraphs as biased. There is way too much controversy around this "fact."
EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team.
In one sense, you're correct. However, in the context of the fact that they're trying to compete in this game, you're 100% wrong. EG had favored content production and selling their players/themselves as a brand. If you're looking to generate income based upon sponsorships and such, this is a fine model. But what would someone say if the Yankees were losing every game, but still had a sick roster and sponsors? They'd probably say it didn't add up. I say "had favored" because as we know, EG moves now to San Fransisco to -allegedly- focus themselves more on practice and raising the skill of their players. Unfortunately, I expect similar results to that which the Lair in AZ produced, which was none at all in the scheme of things.
I wish EG the best and I truly hope this SF move refocuses their players and resources to push their results forward; but as of now, they're a marketable brand, not a championship team.
Also, this thread is going to be terrible and turn into a shit-flinging contest. Don't expect it to stick around for too long.
tahts not completely correct either while EG has not had much success with their roster of american players (machine incontrol and idra to some extent in the recent and not so recent past) they always had players taht were meant to have success in the big competitions (puma huk stephano and now all the koreans they bought)
Hmm, I was thinking LG-IM, WJS, STX, SKT1 or StarTale were "giants". EG hardly had anything going for them competitively until they acquired Stephano, JD, Oz, Alive and Coach Park. Right now they're a dwarf with a fighting spirit, IMO, and it took what, 2.5 / 3 years almost?
I don't really want to watch players on EG, though. I want to watch the players who are actually good (the best) at the game, not some B-player who makes bad advertisements for Kingston Hyper X... Also, the amount of advertising EG does is obnoxious and only makes me less likely to buy whatever product it is.
I'd so much rather Innovation get a $100,000 (+) salary than anyone on EG too. Skill > Personality (in my opinion). I also think teams/players should promote the product they like best, not some random one. The idea of a sponsorship is silly in the first place. Like with Nascar. It's not like the driver of the car with a Cheerio logo actually think that Cheerio's are the best cereal ever. He just gets paid to have it on there. (It doesn't actually mean anything at all!). It's unbelievable how people buy the shit that sponsors a player specifically because it sponsors them instead of just buying the best product... Oh, well.
Call me a naiv romantic socialist and that's probably what I am but to me EG is the proof that attention whoring shameless capitalists are able to exhaust esports even more than it is possible in conventional sports without having competitive success at all. After quiet some time this made me lose a lot interest in the competitive SC2 scene as a whole..
I'm sorry, but teams like coL, SK, 4k, SKT1, wemade, these are teams i remember as strong teams. When i think of a strong team, a name like Jax Money Crew comes to mind faster than EG. When I think of EG, I think of a brand made for other brands, kind of like a kid in highschool who becomes friends with other kids to mutually increase their social value or something. Yea they bought a bunch of good (popular) players, but that has as much merit as buying trendy clothes. Yea it might get you some looks, but it's pretty shallow in the end. Like others have said, it's a business of sorts, but to me, it's some talking heads and twitter-pushers mixed with some (popular) bough talent, clogging up my nice little purist view of e-sports and competition.
honestly, I wish I could just close this thread, but may as well use the opportunity to spill my two meaningless cents.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: team EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team.
Like many others, I simply couldn't get past this statement. EG is probably one of the worst in this regard...To me, a team is a group of people who want to help each other improve for the mutual goal of the teams success (which imo is for players to win or be successful..not sponsors)...or I guess I should say that I can think of more examples of EG players not working together than any other team..but who needs helpful teammates when your making the $$
I'm still astounded by how immature this community is.
There are seriously people that think that only 'the best' players and teams that should be rewarded with financial security. Or that building a marketable, sustainable brand is somehow 'easy?'
You do realize that in a world where only 'champions' made money, only 20-30 players — IN THE WORLD — would be able to play and live off their SC2, don't you?
On May 08 2013 05:43 Defacer wrote: I'm still astounded by how immature this community is.
There are seriously people that think that only 'the best' players and teams that should be rewarded with financial security. Or that building a marketable, sustainable brand is somehow 'easy?'
You do realize that in a world where only 'champions' made money, only 20-30 players — IN THE WORLD — would be able to play and live off their SC2, don't you?
Grow up, guys.
There is a subset of the community who only looks at results and somehow claims that other teams that aren’t getting those results are lazy. As long as those teams aren’t Korean. They see the Korean players doing well in the GSL, but don’t see how hard their managers work to get the team sponsors, or keep the team afloat. NA teams like Complexity can have way fewer results and do less to train their players, but EG doesn’t work hard to help their players improve. EG teams up with TL to go into Proleaugue and hires Coach Park, but they are only interested in making money. People will claim TL is a better team, but only if you limit TL to Hero and Tejea. What has Zenio done recently? Who knows, but clearly Idra is a far worst player because...who knows.
EG would win WCS in all three regions and Proleague and there would still be people out there claiming that the team is only interested in money and their players are lazy.
I just want to say that I think that the management behind EG has done a great job over the least two years. They have grown in terms of attracting sponsors and presumably making money and also expanded their roster. I have been critical of EG players from time to time, but the team seems to have been managed well.
I have respected EG for having a solid economic model, with which they do not only finance themselves but also apparently were able to build quite a bank. I also do understand that part of this model is having team members streaming a lot. What I never understood however is why they do not really practice, they just play a bunch of ladder games. Only playing ladder games will only get you so far. Maybe real training does not get as many viewers, I don't know, although my money would be on the hardcore people still watching (as they do now) and even more casual viewers watching trying to improve their own game. But besides a small initiative to have some training done in team which seemed to fade off very quickly I do not see any real incentive to improve. Why don't they split into groups of two people each day, training one single matchup and ironing out builds/styles, figuring out holes in their plays together and try to fix them? Maybe they do train for an hour a day off screen together, I don't know. But even then that would be way too little dedication to real improvement. For a real training the ratio should be the reverse: Train all day and then maybe one hour go goof on the ladder. Now you might argue: "But Stephano pretty much only played ladder yet he made it to the top?" I don't know about that, maybe. Keep in mind he had his huge success with a playstyle of his own (it's called "Stephano style" for a reason, at least his ZvP), which gave him quite the edge much like Naniwa recently had an edge with his Gateway-expand, as barely anyone seemed familiar with it (and how to counter it). But most of the streaming is just painful repetition of errors that could be figured out easily if there was someone else with an open mind to look at things (like the Naniwa - Sase connection).
For me EG is not a great team, as their players pretty much all do their own thing. And it is not even a SC2 professional team, as they seem to not really value improving that much. But they know how to market their personalities, so they feel to me like a good agency for online solo entertainment based on a computer game. Trying to become more competitive with acquiring a korean team (players hopefully at their peak, as they do not really improve much in the lonely environment of EG - the curse is real) + coach for being able to finally show off some wins may be important for their ego or sponsors, who knows. Just sad that talented players get stuck
On May 08 2013 05:43 Defacer wrote: I'm still astounded by how immature this community is.
There are seriously people that think that only 'the best' players and teams that should be rewarded with financial security. Or that building a marketable, sustainable brand is somehow 'easy?'
You do realize that in a world where only 'champions' made money, only 20-30 players — IN THE WORLD — would be able to play and live off their SC2, don't you?
Grow up, guys.
Who cares if it's easy to build a marketable, sustainable brand? If I want to follow a company which is able to offer their employees a good living than I would stay at my office 24/7 and definitively not follow an esports team.
On May 08 2013 05:43 Defacer wrote: I'm still astounded by how immature this community is.
There are seriously people that think that only 'the best' players and teams that should be rewarded with financial security. Or that building a marketable, sustainable brand is somehow 'easy?'
You do realize that in a world where only 'champions' made money, only 20-30 players — IN THE WORLD — would be able to play and live off their SC2, don't you?
Grow up, guys.
Who cares if it's easy to build a marketable, sustainable brand? If I want to follow a company which is able to offer their employees a good living than I would stay at my office 24/7 and definitively not follow an esports team.
What, so you want a team with players that under paid and overworked as long as they put up results? Are you ok if they are poorly treated as long as they provide you with entertaining games?
On May 08 2013 05:43 Defacer wrote: I'm still astounded by how immature this community is.
There are seriously people that think that only 'the best' players and teams that should be rewarded with financial security. Or that building a marketable, sustainable brand is somehow 'easy?'
You do realize that in a world where only 'champions' made money, only 20-30 players — IN THE WORLD — would be able to play and live off their SC2, don't you?
Grow up, guys.
Who cares if it's easy to build a marketable, sustainable brand? If I want to follow a company which is able to offer their employees a good living than I would stay at my office 24/7 and definitively not follow an esports team.
What, so you want a team with players that under paid and overworked as long as they put up results? Are you ok if they are poorly treated as long as they provide you with entertaining games?
Putting up results should be the foundation for everything that is leading to success. I am absolutly ok with people being treated poorly when they cant put up results in their job. It's their job after all. When they put up results and they are still treated poorly either the management is shit or the whole business model is flawed. Thats not the reason I condemn an organisation like EG. The fact that they don't put up results AND have success by abusing a competitive platform to promote their entertaining "personalities" is just a slap in the face of the organsations who focused on their core competences ( is that a english term? in german it is!) and provided us with the entertainment we all enjoy from the get go.
On May 08 2013 05:30 Influ wrote: Call me a naiv romantic socialist and that's probably what I am but to me EG is the proof that attention whoring shameless capitalists are able to exhaust esports even more than it is possible in conventional sports without having competitive success at all. After quiet some time this made me lose a lot interest in the competitive SC2 scene as a whole..
attention whoring shameless capitalists
I don't think you understand how the scene works (or basic business and economics for that matter).
So a lot of revenue comes in (not all, but a good deal) by companies who sponsor teams, tournaments, players, etc. The companies sponsoring treat the money they inject into the scene as marketing / advertising expenses. In return, the teams, tournaments, players, etc. promote the sponsoring company and its products.
If the company feels that they aren't being promoted enough, they won't sponsor as much, or stop sponsoring altogether. Which is bad for the scene. EG makes its sponsors happy, which allows EG to have more sponsorships, which allows EG to pay its players better, run tournaments (EG Masters Cup being an example), and create content for the community. This is generally seen as good.
Results are important. But so is financial sustainability. Both are critically important
EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team.
In one sense, you're correct. However, in the context of the fact that they're trying to compete in this game, you're 100% wrong. EG had favored content production and selling their players/themselves as a brand. If you're looking to generate income based upon sponsorships and such, this is a fine model. But what would someone say if the Yankees were losing every game, but still had a sick roster and sponsors? They'd probably say it didn't add up. I say "had favored" because as we know, EG moves now to San Fransisco to -allegedly- focus themselves more on practice and raising the skill of their players. Unfortunately, I expect similar results to that which the Lair in AZ produced, which was none at all in the scheme of things.
I wish EG the best and I truly hope this SF move refocuses their players and resources to push their results forward; but as of now, they're a marketable brand, not a championship team.
Also, this thread is going to be terrible and turn into a shit-flinging contest. Don't expect it to stick around for too long.
What blows my mind is that EG and their model has been around in SC2 for quite a while now. They are clearly showing everyone else how it's done, and yet none are following their model! I don't understand!
On May 08 2013 05:43 Defacer wrote: I'm still astounded by how immature this community is.
There are seriously people that think that only 'the best' players and teams that should be rewarded with financial security. Or that building a marketable, sustainable brand is somehow 'easy?'
You do realize that in a world where only 'champions' made money, only 20-30 players — IN THE WORLD — would be able to play and live off their SC2, don't you?
Grow up, guys.
Who cares if it's easy to build a marketable, sustainable brand? If I want to follow a company which is able to offer their employees a good living than I would stay at my office 24/7 and definitively not follow an esports team.
What, so you want a team with players that under paid and overworked as long as they put up results? Are you ok if they are poorly treated as long as they provide you with entertaining games?
Putting up results should be the foundation for everything that is leading to success. I am absolutly ok with people being treated poorly when they cant put up results in their job. It's their job after all. When they put up results and they are still treated poorly either the management is shit or the whole business model is flawed. Thats not the reason I condemn an organisation like EG. The fact that they don't put up results AND have success by abusing a competitive platform to promote their entertaining "personalities" is just a slap in the face of the organsations who focused on their core competences ( is that a english term? in german it is!) and provided us with the entertainment we all enjoy from the get go.
talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
This fallacy that EG only cares about money and not winning is utter fucking bullshit.
Are they winning every tournament? No. But you don't start a team house, pay top dollar for the best players available, or hire a top Korean coach because you don't care about winning.
If all they cared about were stream numbers, they would have 'players' like Destiny or Day9 on EG. They would have a team composed entirely out of broadcast personalities.
This fallacy that EG only cares about money and not winning is utter fucking bullshit.
Are they winning every tournament? No. But you don't start a team house, pay top dollar for the best players available, or hire a top Korean coach because you don't care about winning.
If all they cared about were stream numbers, they would have 'players' like Destiny or Day9 on EG. They would have a team composed entirely out of broadcast personalities.
I wasn't aware of any AM or EU team that was winning anything in SC2 at the moment. Did I miss something? Naniwa took second place at Dreamhack, but that is about it. Is there another NA or EU team that is putting up better results that EG that I am not aware of? Because if you compare any NA or EU team to Korea, they all suck and don't win anything.
This fallacy that EG only cares about money and not winning is utter fucking bullshit.
Are they winning every tournament? No. But you don't start a team house, pay top dollar for the best players available, or hire a top Korean coach because you don't care about winning.
If all they cared about were stream numbers, they would have 'players' like Destiny or Day9 on EG. They would have a team composed entirely out of broadcast personalities.
It's not about if they care about winning or not, it's about whether EG values more the attention the players get over their results.
It's a business, so EG players getting to promote sponsors is always good. I'd like to see more results from every EG player, but that's just me.
This fallacy that EG only cares about money and not winning is utter fucking bullshit.
Are they winning every tournament? No. But you don't start a team house, pay top dollar for the best players available, or hire a top Korean coach because you don't care about winning.
If all they cared about were stream numbers, they would have 'players' like Destiny or Day9 on EG. They would have a team composed entirely out of broadcast personalities.
It's not about if they care about winning or not, it's about whether EG values more the attention the players get over their results.
It's a business, so EG players getting to promote sponsors is always good. I'd like to see more results from every EG player, but that's just me.
If it makes you feel better, I think the players would like to see more results from every player.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
On May 08 2013 05:43 Defacer wrote: I'm still astounded by how immature this community is.
There are seriously people that think that only 'the best' players and teams that should be rewarded with financial security. Or that building a marketable, sustainable brand is somehow 'easy?'
You do realize that in a world where only 'champions' made money, only 20-30 players — IN THE WORLD — would be able to play and live off their SC2, don't you?
Grow up, guys.
Who cares if it's easy to build a marketable, sustainable brand? If I want to follow a company which is able to offer their employees a good living than I would stay at my office 24/7 and definitively not follow an esports team.
What, so you want a team with players that under paid and overworked as long as they put up results? Are you ok if they are poorly treated as long as they provide you with entertaining games?
Putting up results should be the foundation for everything that is leading to success. I am absolutly ok with people being treated poorly when they cant put up results in their job. It's their job after all. When they put up results and they are still treated poorly either the management is shit or the whole business model is flawed. Thats not the reason I condemn an organisation like EG. The fact that they don't put up results AND have success by abusing a competitive platform to promote their entertaining "personalities" is just a slap in the face of the organsations who focused on their core competences ( is that a english term? in german it is!) and provided us with the entertainment we all enjoy from the get go.
talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Ur right streamingwise for adrevenue, but sponsorshipwise its seems different. Ofcourse, there is a sort of symbiotic relationship. If its true that adstreaming is for the player and the sponsorsships are for the team, u could say that the brand as a proteam u sell to the fans, should mix well with the branding of the sponsors : Winning, appereance, communication etc. Seeing the spnsorships and fans that EG has, u must be doing a reasonable job. But be carefull that u dont overextend your image as a team, because it can bite u in the arse in the longrun (if u know what i mean...)
i have to disagree with the OP quite a bit. Not that EG is doing a fine job beeing marketable, but for them beeing a role model. I think what we as a community should be aiming for, is to attract and fascinate viewership by the level and the beauty of competetive play that is shown, not by attracting characters. I think it is not the right choice to go into the WWF direction but rather in the professional sport direction. Football, american football, tennis, all those game interest a big enough viewership MAINLY by showing good sports and high level competition in a game, that the viewership can connect to. Because the do the same sport/ play the same game on a amateur level.
It is often said, "esports" needs to grow. Well i think we should look forward to it growing in it's own natural pace. What will more viewership net us average viewer in the end? Im already satisfied with with the production level and size of major tournaments.
Professional BW should be our rolemodel i think. The production can be entertaining and funny, you may create personality and rivalry between players but the games should still be about the highest level of play.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
Man, I was sticking up for EG. I was even nice to you at Pax East. I am both offended and disguste.....who I am kidding. Good luck on your WCS matchs.
He is pretty much right though, people who want to say EG isn't results driven isn't looking at the big picture. Results does not make your team enough money to stay viable. Promotion and sponsorship make your team viable. If EG doubles down on results, they may not make enough stay in business. Being a viable team that can pay its players living wages and getting results is a lot harder than people think.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
You actually just became my hero and won the thread in this post.
On May 08 2013 08:37 Cele wrote: i have to disagree with the OP quite a bit. Not that EG is doing a fine job beeing marketable, but for them beeing a role model. I think what we as a community should be aiming for, is to attract and fascinate viewership by the level and the beauty of competetive play that is shown, not by attracting characters. I think it is not the right choice to go into the WWF direction but rather in the professional sport direction. Football, american football, tennis, all those game interest a big enough viewership MAINLY by showing good sports and high level competition in a game, that the viewership can connect to. Because the do the same sport/ play the same game on a amateur level.
It is often said, "esports" needs to grow. Well i think we should look forward to it growing in it's own natural pace. What will more viewership net us average viewer in the end? Im already satisfied with with the production level and size of major tournaments.
Professional BW should be our rolemodel i think. The production can be entertaining and funny, you may create personality and rivalry between players but the games should still be about the highest level of play.
A big part of the reason pro sports are successful is because the feeling of belonging a spectator has to a team they cheer for. For example, how often do you see someone root for their home team? Overwhelmingly more often than the other side of the fence. I think the format for SC2 to be successful is right in front of us. We just need more teams with the money to make a difference.
People tend to love drama. American movies/realty television are based off of it. I would love to sit back here and agree with you. I just can't say that we're going to attract new audiences based on the competitive aspect of a video game they know nothing about. They need to have a reason to want to learn. Its not going to be because they saw widow mines blow up an entire mineral line, or burrowed banelings destroy a bio army, they have no idea the significance of something like that.
I think with that entertainment aspect it gives the viewers something else to pay attention to. Other than a game they know absolutely nothing about on first glance.
In terms of the ingredients to attract viewers with no experience in SC2 before, Is there any question it would be EG?
I'm no expert. I'm just trying to spark discussion thats all. I find it really interesting to see peoples thoughts.
It is kinda funny it works. Buy hey, people are dumb fucks for the most part :> EG needs to get that bitcoin code from ESEA, they could probably get people to run it willingly.
EG: "Drink Monster and buy our shit you dumb fucks" EG fans: "Sure, just cos you so badass <3." EG: "Hell while you're at it, mine bitcoins for us pls, here's a short promo video and an EG wallpaper / screensaver" EG fans: "YAY stuff"
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
On May 08 2013 04:23 Hikari wrote: I think a fundamental problem is how the community wants to see the progamers as very hard working athletes who aim to break their upper limit for 8 hours a day and a team will provide the coaching to point out their strengths and weaknesses.
In reality such a model is not viable: progamers need to take on the task of drawing in a crowd and be part of a marketing machine to sustain the progaming model.
Wrong thats the problem that foreign teams have and thiswhy have no success.
You may be right. But, it depends on how you gauge success. If you're measuring the players, then yes, success is unusual for foreign teams. But, I think for this industry to mature in the western world, there needs to be more marketability. There are probably a lot of people who would be naturally gifted at SC2 and could have the discipline to compete with Koreans. The problem being is there is little in the way of motivation aside from the idea of being a pro gamer.
There are few foreign pro gamers who can take care of themselves based on their career of choice. I think making pro gaming a 'safer' career option could only stand to help in the western world.
Lets face it, it will never be a sure bet. But, being a pro athlete isn't a very safe bet either. There is always risk, but the risk at least has a chance of paying off in a big way as a pro athlete. In its current state, eSports have very little materials to pay off those players who are willing to make that sacrifice. EG is one of those few teams who are rumored to pay their players enough to live.
I guess what I'm saying is this.. would you put school aside? career? life? to put in the hours it takes to compete with these guys with nothing more than a hope at becoming good enough to make a team like EG so you can support yourself? Thats why having more teams that can market their players and expand this industry are important, because it opens the door for players to start taking this seriously.
I don't study marketing in the slightest, but you can only go so far. What you actually need is people playing and enjoying the game (see: SC: bw in korea, dota in china)--so much that it's a cultural thing. You then have millions of people who can watch and understand the game which at the base of it is an intense game between two people.
I think World of Warcraft dwarfed anything else out there that could call itself a game. They attempted the professional scene, but it was more of a outlet for the top-most players to continue playing and live by and to extend popular strategies and beliefs with them. You certainly can't bring in people who are sworn against rts-type games and if that were the case for MMORPGs instead, who's to say i would spend the time to watch a local or international tournament? Well, the answer is your friends, family, co-workers and in short, by word of mouth.
If the game is a good platform and has you reeling for more despite the negative feels you face in-game at times, you begin to experience a needful habit that you would otherwise not create excuses for putting yourself through.
(I'm going to go out on a limb) Let's face it, we enjoy StarCraft because we like to watch people do better than us. We like something like League of Legends because we enjoy doing better than others. We continue playing because we deem it a good habit (i'm practically saying nothing with this) and we continue watching because we're so vested/invested into.. what the scene has to offer or in some cases, who is offering what.
If i wanted to watch EG or any other team with top-dollar players i would put it on my calendar or to-do lists, otherwise i would be relying on other fans of those teams or community spotlights. We're lucky in that our community is also a tight-knit resource... a sort of hub for all activity and so we can potentially never miss a match. I probably missed a sick curling match... many sick curling matches, and i never had the slightest clue until it struck me that i needed to think of something i normally don't watch. That's not the case with starcraft. Without TeamLiquid even, there would not be a 'foreigner' thing going on, and that's a simple fact.
So why don't we discuss teamliquid.net instead? and how it is able to 'market' so much, yet remains so under-appreciated in wealth or by words related to its success. There is suddenly so many expectations of this website to simply operate the way its going, but surprise-surprise! it's entirely community run aside from in-house staff that make it their job to provide all the tools for us in such easy and accessible ways.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
The point is, it doesn't matter. That's what's so funny, IMO. It's fucked up, I guess -- but it doesn't matter. That's all I got out of that, he might think low of everyone/thing, but it doesn't matter 'cause people still watch and whatnot.
That's all I got out of it -- that it doesn't matter (to him/EG's $?)
EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team.
In one sense, you're correct. However, in the context of the fact that they're trying to compete in this game, you're 100% wrong. EG had favored content production and selling their players/themselves as a brand. If you're looking to generate income based upon sponsorships and such, this is a fine model. But what would someone say if the Yankees were losing every game, but still had a sick roster and sponsors? They'd probably say it didn't add up. I say "had favored" because as we know, EG moves now to San Fransisco to -allegedly- focus themselves more on practice and raising the skill of their players. Unfortunately, I expect similar results to that which the Lair in AZ produced, which was none at all in the scheme of things.
I wish EG the best and I truly hope this SF move refocuses their players and resources to push their results forward; but as of now, they're a marketable brand, not a championship team.
This should have more-or-less been /thread as far as I'm concerned.
EG does a great job of marketing their players, but they do a pretty terrible job of actually making those players win things.
This creates something of a bubble where they have a lot of hype and no results, and so people still respect the brand based on the hype. I don't see that lasting forever, though.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
The point is, it doesn't matter. That's what's so funny, IMO. It's fucked up, I guess -- but it doesn't matter. That's all I got out of that, he might think low of everyone/thing, but it doesn't matter 'cause people still watch and whatnot.
That's all I got out of it -- that it doesn't matter (to him/EG's $?)
It does matter. The point is that he can treat his haters like trash and his fans like him more for it. Anyone who watches Inside the Game or has seen Idra at an event knows he does like his fans. He just has no problem shitting on his haters too.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
The point is, it doesn't matter. That's what's so funny, IMO. It's fucked up, I guess -- but it doesn't matter. That's all I got out of that, he might think low of everyone/thing, but it doesn't matter 'cause people still watch and whatnot.
That's all I got out of it -- that it doesn't matter (to him/EG's $?)
It does matter. The point is that he can treat his haters like trash and his fans like him more for it. Anyone who watches Inside the Game or has seen Idra at an event knows he does like his fans. He just has no problem shitting on his haters too.
Oh all right. I just figured that, in the end, people are going to watch him and nothing thus far has changed it. I guess you're right though.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
The point is, it doesn't matter. That's what's so funny, IMO. It's fucked up, I guess -- but it doesn't matter. That's all I got out of that, he might think low of everyone/thing, but it doesn't matter 'cause people still watch and whatnot.
That's all I got out of it -- that it doesn't matter (to him/EG's $?)
It does matter. The point is that he can treat his haters like trash and his fans like him more for it. Anyone who watches Inside the Game or has seen Idra at an event knows he does like his fans. He just has no problem shitting on his haters too.
Oh all right. I just figured that, in the end, people are going to watch him and nothing thus far has changed it. I guess you're right though.
Howard Stern said it best: "My fans listen to me for an hour a day. The people who hate me listen for two."
Why try to win over the people who have decided to hate you, they are already watching.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
Funny and proves my point exactly. U should be more carefull as a progamer, because disliked players are worthless for sponsors and therefore also for teams... Fans go to streams of other players and dont bm, except on your stream... think about it! seriously!
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
i prefer to play the real game and working something nice to playing the other game and trolling people. Everybody to his liking i guess.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote:How is it different now than it was then? The only thing that would make sense is the obvious thing in business. They made the right decisions at the right time. Number one on that list was picking up Greg 'IdrA' Fields early on. Greg was an enormous personality (still is) early on in the game. Whether it be from his results at MLG or from his character that seemed to attract lovers and haters alike. He is big. People like to watch Greg because he was a top contender in the scene at the time. On top of it all, they never knew what they were going to get from him. Lets face it, a vast majority of people follow Greg and its not always to see him win.
For eSports to break those barriers, we need more personalities and teams like EG. We need to catch that 'WWF' persona, in a sense. You don't always watch it for the action. You watch it to see whats going to happen next. Could you imagine another team with the resources and pool of personality EG has in eSports? It could only stand to attract those viewers who've never seen SC2 before. Hell, it could even spawn a realty television series.
Reading this, I couldn't but help agree. I like to think of Idra similar as to how when Brock Lesnar signed with the UFC for his short but questionably successful MMA career.
Let's compare their backgrounds. - Brock was a Division 1 NCAA Wrestler in his college years before going to WWE/F. - Idra was a practice partner of CJ Entus - Brock then made his name in WWE/F, things may diverge slightly differently here though, as Idra was a good foreigner in BW, but probably one of the actual few to adapt and partake in that heavy 12 hour per day Korean practice regimen. Even as top of the heap of pro wrestling whether a heel or face, you can look up the wear and tear these guys put their bodies through. Pro Wrestlers spend a majority of the year travelling and doing house shows, many can easily get addicted to painkillers and lead a tragic life as well. Their life wasn't easy, but they do it for the pursuit of being good entertainers. - Brock goes into MMA, defeats Min Soo Kim, but eventually signs onto the UFC, takes on Heath Herring, then former UFC HW Champ Frank Mir (and although he loses, there was some controversy with the ref). But eventually Brock gets a title shot and becomes the UFC HW champion. During Brock's short reign, he easily becomes the biggest draw to the UFC itself where they would get around a million PPV buys. The question of Brock's legitimacy into MMA is due to his background of being a WWE wrestler, some write off or even ignore his NCAA D1 pedigree. He becomes a figure people either love or hate to watch, but he puts asses in the seats. - Idra does well in SC2 beta as well as progresses his career with various wins. His character or persona is further galvanized as a person who can be quite BM if need be. Similar to Brock, he became a player that people either love to hate to watch as well.
At this point, Brock is more or less retired from MMA and is back to pro wrestling, I figure part time with the WWE. And recently had a feud with Triple H if I recall (I don't really keep up to date much with WWE, but HHH or Paul Levesque as his real name, is married to Stephanie McMahon - daughter of WWE Chairman of Vince McMahon, and HHH himself holds a very high position in the company too). So Brock still does pro wrestling with big names for a paycheck. Not that he needs it. But he retired mainly due to him feeling that he's probably not best in shape any more to compete at that level. His bout with Diverticulitis pretty much ensured that.
Idra though, is still going with his pro gaming career obviously, but for now it seems like his best days may be behind him. He could come back and put results again, but outside of his streaming just for ladder grinding, I don't recall seeing Idra really compete let alone place at a big event for quite awhile.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote:How is it different now than it was then? The only thing that would make sense is the obvious thing in business. They made the right decisions at the right time. Number one on that list was picking up Greg 'IdrA' Fields early on. Greg was an enormous personality (still is) early on in the game. Whether it be from his results at MLG or from his character that seemed to attract lovers and haters alike. He is big. People like to watch Greg because he was a top contender in the scene at the time. On top of it all, they never knew what they were going to get from him. Lets face it, a vast majority of people follow Greg and its not always to see him win.
For eSports to break those barriers, we need more personalities and teams like EG. We need to catch that 'WWF' persona, in a sense. You don't always watch it for the action. You watch it to see whats going to happen next. Could you imagine another team with the resources and pool of personality EG has in eSports? It could only stand to attract those viewers who've never seen SC2 before. Hell, it could even spawn a realty television series.
Reading this, I couldn't but help agree. I like to think of Idra similar as to how when Brock Lesnar signed with the UFC for his short but questionably successful MMA career.
Let's compare their backgrounds. - Brock was a Division 1 NCAA Wrestler in his college years before going to WWE/F. - Idra was a practice partner of CJ Entus - Brock then made his name in WWE/F, things may diverge slightly differently here though, as Idra was a good foreigner in BW, but probably one of the actual few to adapt and partake in that heavy 12 hour per day Korean practice regimen. Even as top of the heap of pro wrestling whether a heel or face, you can look up the wear and tear these guys put their bodies through. Pro Wrestlers spend a majority of the year travelling and doing house shows, many can easily get addicted to painkillers and lead a tragic life as well. Their life wasn't easy, but they do it for the pursuit of being good entertainers. - Brock goes into MMA, defeats Min Soo Kim, but eventually signs onto the UFC, takes on Heath Herring, then former UFC HW Champ Frank Mir (and although he loses, there was some controversy with the ref). But eventually Brock gets a title shot and becomes the UFC HW champion. During Brock's short reign, he easily becomes the biggest draw to the UFC itself where they would get around a million PPV buys. The question of Brock's legitimacy into MMA is due to his background of being a WWE wrestler, some write off or even ignore his NCAA D1 pedigree. He becomes a figure people either love or hate to watch, but he puts asses in the seats. - Idra does well in SC2 beta as well as progresses his career with various wins. His character or persona is further galvanized as a person who can be quite BM if need be. Similar to Brock, he became a player that people either love to hate to watch as well.
At this point, Brock is more or less retired from MMA and is back to pro wrestling, I figure part time with the WWE. And recently had a feud with Triple H if I recall (I don't really keep up to date much with WWE, but HHH or Paul Levesque as his real name, is married to Stephanie McMahon - daughter of WWE Chairman of Vince McMahon, and HHH himself holds a very high position in the company too). So Brock still does pro wrestling with big names for a paycheck. Not that he needs it. But he retired mainly due to him feeling that he's probably not best in shape any more to compete at that level. His bout with Diverticulitis pretty much ensured that.
Idra though, is still going with his pro gaming career obviously, but for now it seems like his best days may be behind him. He could come back and put results again, but outside of his streaming just for ladder grinding, I don't recall seeing Idra really compete let alone place at a big event for quite awhile.
Anyone else find the comparison between Brock Lesnar and Idra slightly amusing?
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote:How is it different now than it was then? The only thing that would make sense is the obvious thing in business. They made the right decisions at the right time. Number one on that list was picking up Greg 'IdrA' Fields early on. Greg was an enormous personality (still is) early on in the game. Whether it be from his results at MLG or from his character that seemed to attract lovers and haters alike. He is big. People like to watch Greg because he was a top contender in the scene at the time. On top of it all, they never knew what they were going to get from him. Lets face it, a vast majority of people follow Greg and its not always to see him win.
For eSports to break those barriers, we need more personalities and teams like EG. We need to catch that 'WWF' persona, in a sense. You don't always watch it for the action. You watch it to see whats going to happen next. Could you imagine another team with the resources and pool of personality EG has in eSports? It could only stand to attract those viewers who've never seen SC2 before. Hell, it could even spawn a realty television series.
Reading this, I couldn't but help agree. I like to think of Idra similar as to how when Brock Lesnar signed with the UFC for his short but questionably successful MMA career.
Let's compare their backgrounds. - Brock was a Division 1 NCAA Wrestler in his college years before going to WWE/F. - Idra was a practice partner of CJ Entus - Brock then made his name in WWE/F, things may diverge slightly differently here though, as Idra was a good foreigner in BW, but probably one of the actual few to adapt and partake in that heavy 12 hour per day Korean practice regimen. Even as top of the heap of pro wrestling whether a heel or face, you can look up the wear and tear these guys put their bodies through. Pro Wrestlers spend a majority of the year travelling and doing house shows, many can easily get addicted to painkillers and lead a tragic life as well. Their life wasn't easy, but they do it for the pursuit of being good entertainers. - Brock goes into MMA, defeats Min Soo Kim, but eventually signs onto the UFC, takes on Heath Herring, then former UFC HW Champ Frank Mir (and although he loses, there was some controversy with the ref). But eventually Brock gets a title shot and becomes the UFC HW champion. During Brock's short reign, he easily becomes the biggest draw to the UFC itself where they would get around a million PPV buys. The question of Brock's legitimacy into MMA is due to his background of being a WWE wrestler, some write off or even ignore his NCAA D1 pedigree. He becomes a figure people either love or hate to watch, but he puts asses in the seats. - Idra does well in SC2 beta as well as progresses his career with various wins. His character or persona is further galvanized as a person who can be quite BM if need be. Similar to Brock, he became a player that people either love to hate to watch as well.
At this point, Brock is more or less retired from MMA and is back to pro wrestling, I figure part time with the WWE. And recently had a feud with Triple H if I recall (I don't really keep up to date much with WWE, but HHH or Paul Levesque as his real name, is married to Stephanie McMahon - daughter of WWE Chairman of Vince McMahon, and HHH himself holds a very high position in the company too). So Brock still does pro wrestling with big names for a paycheck. Not that he needs it. But he retired mainly due to him feeling that he's probably not best in shape any more to compete at that level. His bout with Diverticulitis pretty much ensured that.
Idra though, is still going with his pro gaming career obviously, but for now it seems like his best days may be behind him. He could come back and put results again, but outside of his streaming just for ladder grinding, I don't recall seeing Idra really compete let alone place at a big event for quite awhile.
Anyone else find the comparison between Brock Lesnar and Idra slightly amusing?
I admit I kinda made a stretch, but there's clearly some parts that make sense. And the end goal is exactly as stated. EG has a big name in Idra that people love/hate. UFC had the same with Brock, I don't think UFC has yet to beat their PPV sales amount since then when Brock was around.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote:How is it different now than it was then? The only thing that would make sense is the obvious thing in business. They made the right decisions at the right time. Number one on that list was picking up Greg 'IdrA' Fields early on. Greg was an enormous personality (still is) early on in the game. Whether it be from his results at MLG or from his character that seemed to attract lovers and haters alike. He is big. People like to watch Greg because he was a top contender in the scene at the time. On top of it all, they never knew what they were going to get from him. Lets face it, a vast majority of people follow Greg and its not always to see him win.
For eSports to break those barriers, we need more personalities and teams like EG. We need to catch that 'WWF' persona, in a sense. You don't always watch it for the action. You watch it to see whats going to happen next. Could you imagine another team with the resources and pool of personality EG has in eSports? It could only stand to attract those viewers who've never seen SC2 before. Hell, it could even spawn a realty television series.
Reading this, I couldn't but help agree. I like to think of Idra similar as to how when Brock Lesnar signed with the UFC for his short but questionably successful MMA career.
Let's compare their backgrounds. - Brock was a Division 1 NCAA Wrestler in his college years before going to WWE/F. - Idra was a practice partner of CJ Entus - Brock then made his name in WWE/F, things may diverge slightly differently here though, as Idra was a good foreigner in BW, but probably one of the actual few to adapt and partake in that heavy 12 hour per day Korean practice regimen. Even as top of the heap of pro wrestling whether a heel or face, you can look up the wear and tear these guys put their bodies through. Pro Wrestlers spend a majority of the year travelling and doing house shows, many can easily get addicted to painkillers and lead a tragic life as well. Their life wasn't easy, but they do it for the pursuit of being good entertainers. - Brock goes into MMA, defeats Min Soo Kim, but eventually signs onto the UFC, takes on Heath Herring, then former UFC HW Champ Frank Mir (and although he loses, there was some controversy with the ref). But eventually Brock gets a title shot and becomes the UFC HW champion. During Brock's short reign, he easily becomes the biggest draw to the UFC itself where they would get around a million PPV buys. The question of Brock's legitimacy into MMA is due to his background of being a WWE wrestler, some write off or even ignore his NCAA D1 pedigree. He becomes a figure people either love or hate to watch, but he puts asses in the seats. - Idra does well in SC2 beta as well as progresses his career with various wins. His character or persona is further galvanized as a person who can be quite BM if need be. Similar to Brock, he became a player that people either love to hate to watch as well.
At this point, Brock is more or less retired from MMA and is back to pro wrestling, I figure part time with the WWE. And recently had a feud with Triple H if I recall (I don't really keep up to date much with WWE, but HHH or Paul Levesque as his real name, is married to Stephanie McMahon - daughter of WWE Chairman of Vince McMahon, and HHH himself holds a very high position in the company too). So Brock still does pro wrestling with big names for a paycheck. Not that he needs it. But he retired mainly due to him feeling that he's probably not best in shape any more to compete at that level. His bout with Diverticulitis pretty much ensured that.
Idra though, is still going with his pro gaming career obviously, but for now it seems like his best days may be behind him. He could come back and put results again, but outside of his streaming just for ladder grinding, I don't recall seeing Idra really compete let alone place at a big event for quite awhile.
Anyone else find the comparison between Brock Lesnar and Idra slightly amusing?
I admit I kinda made a stretch, but there's clearly some parts that make sense. And the end goal is exactly as stated. EG has a big name in Idra that people love/hate. UFC had the same with Brock, I don't think UFC has yet to beat their PPV sales amount since then when Brock was around.
I don't know, I think your comparison comes up a little short.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote:How is it different now than it was then? The only thing that would make sense is the obvious thing in business. They made the right decisions at the right time. Number one on that list was picking up Greg 'IdrA' Fields early on. Greg was an enormous personality (still is) early on in the game. Whether it be from his results at MLG or from his character that seemed to attract lovers and haters alike. He is big. People like to watch Greg because he was a top contender in the scene at the time. On top of it all, they never knew what they were going to get from him. Lets face it, a vast majority of people follow Greg and its not always to see him win.
For eSports to break those barriers, we need more personalities and teams like EG. We need to catch that 'WWF' persona, in a sense. You don't always watch it for the action. You watch it to see whats going to happen next. Could you imagine another team with the resources and pool of personality EG has in eSports? It could only stand to attract those viewers who've never seen SC2 before. Hell, it could even spawn a realty television series.
Reading this, I couldn't but help agree. I like to think of Idra similar as to how when Brock Lesnar signed with the UFC for his short but questionably successful MMA career.
Let's compare their backgrounds. - Brock was a Division 1 NCAA Wrestler in his college years before going to WWE/F. - Idra was a practice partner of CJ Entus - Brock then made his name in WWE/F, things may diverge slightly differently here though, as Idra was a good foreigner in BW, but probably one of the actual few to adapt and partake in that heavy 12 hour per day Korean practice regimen. Even as top of the heap of pro wrestling whether a heel or face, you can look up the wear and tear these guys put their bodies through. Pro Wrestlers spend a majority of the year travelling and doing house shows, many can easily get addicted to painkillers and lead a tragic life as well. Their life wasn't easy, but they do it for the pursuit of being good entertainers. - Brock goes into MMA, defeats Min Soo Kim, but eventually signs onto the UFC, takes on Heath Herring, then former UFC HW Champ Frank Mir (and although he loses, there was some controversy with the ref). But eventually Brock gets a title shot and becomes the UFC HW champion. During Brock's short reign, he easily becomes the biggest draw to the UFC itself where they would get around a million PPV buys. The question of Brock's legitimacy into MMA is due to his background of being a WWE wrestler, some write off or even ignore his NCAA D1 pedigree. He becomes a figure people either love or hate to watch, but he puts asses in the seats. - Idra does well in SC2 beta as well as progresses his career with various wins. His character or persona is further galvanized as a person who can be quite BM if need be. Similar to Brock, he became a player that people either love to hate to watch as well.
At this point, Brock is more or less retired from MMA and is back to pro wrestling, I figure part time with the WWE. And recently had a feud with Triple H if I recall (I don't really keep up to date much with WWE, but HHH or Paul Levesque as his real name, is married to Stephanie McMahon - daughter of WWE Chairman of Vince McMahon, and HHH himself holds a very high position in the company too). So Brock still does pro wrestling with big names for a paycheck. Not that he needs it. But he retired mainly due to him feeling that he's probably not best in shape any more to compete at that level. His bout with Diverticulitis pretty much ensured that.
Idra though, is still going with his pro gaming career obviously, but for now it seems like his best days may be behind him. He could come back and put results again, but outside of his streaming just for ladder grinding, I don't recall seeing Idra really compete let alone place at a big event for quite awhile.
Anyone else find the comparison between Brock Lesnar and Idra slightly amusing?
I admit I kinda made a stretch, but there's clearly some parts that make sense. And the end goal is exactly as stated. EG has a big name in Idra that people love/hate. UFC had the same with Brock, I don't think UFC has yet to beat their PPV sales amount since then when Brock was around.
I don't know, I think your comparison comes up a little short.
...sorry.
OK, well tell me how? Just saying it's amusing and it coming up short doesn't really satisfy my curiosity as to why you don't like it. B/C honestly, while at first it may seem like a stretch, logically it does have fairly apt comparisons.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote:How is it different now than it was then? The only thing that would make sense is the obvious thing in business. They made the right decisions at the right time. Number one on that list was picking up Greg 'IdrA' Fields early on. Greg was an enormous personality (still is) early on in the game. Whether it be from his results at MLG or from his character that seemed to attract lovers and haters alike. He is big. People like to watch Greg because he was a top contender in the scene at the time. On top of it all, they never knew what they were going to get from him. Lets face it, a vast majority of people follow Greg and its not always to see him win.
For eSports to break those barriers, we need more personalities and teams like EG. We need to catch that 'WWF' persona, in a sense. You don't always watch it for the action. You watch it to see whats going to happen next. Could you imagine another team with the resources and pool of personality EG has in eSports? It could only stand to attract those viewers who've never seen SC2 before. Hell, it could even spawn a realty television series.
Reading this, I couldn't but help agree. I like to think of Idra similar as to how when Brock Lesnar signed with the UFC for his short but questionably successful MMA career.
Let's compare their backgrounds. - Brock was a Division 1 NCAA Wrestler in his college years before going to WWE/F. - Idra was a practice partner of CJ Entus - Brock then made his name in WWE/F, things may diverge slightly differently here though, as Idra was a good foreigner in BW, but probably one of the actual few to adapt and partake in that heavy 12 hour per day Korean practice regimen. Even as top of the heap of pro wrestling whether a heel or face, you can look up the wear and tear these guys put their bodies through. Pro Wrestlers spend a majority of the year travelling and doing house shows, many can easily get addicted to painkillers and lead a tragic life as well. Their life wasn't easy, but they do it for the pursuit of being good entertainers. - Brock goes into MMA, defeats Min Soo Kim, but eventually signs onto the UFC, takes on Heath Herring, then former UFC HW Champ Frank Mir (and although he loses, there was some controversy with the ref). But eventually Brock gets a title shot and becomes the UFC HW champion. During Brock's short reign, he easily becomes the biggest draw to the UFC itself where they would get around a million PPV buys. The question of Brock's legitimacy into MMA is due to his background of being a WWE wrestler, some write off or even ignore his NCAA D1 pedigree. He becomes a figure people either love or hate to watch, but he puts asses in the seats. - Idra does well in SC2 beta as well as progresses his career with various wins. His character or persona is further galvanized as a person who can be quite BM if need be. Similar to Brock, he became a player that people either love to hate to watch as well.
At this point, Brock is more or less retired from MMA and is back to pro wrestling, I figure part time with the WWE. And recently had a feud with Triple H if I recall (I don't really keep up to date much with WWE, but HHH or Paul Levesque as his real name, is married to Stephanie McMahon - daughter of WWE Chairman of Vince McMahon, and HHH himself holds a very high position in the company too). So Brock still does pro wrestling with big names for a paycheck. Not that he needs it. But he retired mainly due to him feeling that he's probably not best in shape any more to compete at that level. His bout with Diverticulitis pretty much ensured that.
Idra though, is still going with his pro gaming career obviously, but for now it seems like his best days may be behind him. He could come back and put results again, but outside of his streaming just for ladder grinding, I don't recall seeing Idra really compete let alone place at a big event for quite awhile.
Anyone else find the comparison between Brock Lesnar and Idra slightly amusing?
I admit I kinda made a stretch, but there's clearly some parts that make sense. And the end goal is exactly as stated. EG has a big name in Idra that people love/hate. UFC had the same with Brock, I don't think UFC has yet to beat their PPV sales amount since then when Brock was around.
I am sure its all dandy, my imagination was just running a bit wild.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote:How is it different now than it was then? The only thing that would make sense is the obvious thing in business. They made the right decisions at the right time. Number one on that list was picking up Greg 'IdrA' Fields early on. Greg was an enormous personality (still is) early on in the game. Whether it be from his results at MLG or from his character that seemed to attract lovers and haters alike. He is big. People like to watch Greg because he was a top contender in the scene at the time. On top of it all, they never knew what they were going to get from him. Lets face it, a vast majority of people follow Greg and its not always to see him win.
For eSports to break those barriers, we need more personalities and teams like EG. We need to catch that 'WWF' persona, in a sense. You don't always watch it for the action. You watch it to see whats going to happen next. Could you imagine another team with the resources and pool of personality EG has in eSports? It could only stand to attract those viewers who've never seen SC2 before. Hell, it could even spawn a realty television series.
Reading this, I couldn't but help agree. I like to think of Idra similar as to how when Brock Lesnar signed with the UFC for his short but questionably successful MMA career.
Let's compare their backgrounds. - Brock was a Division 1 NCAA Wrestler in his college years before going to WWE/F. - Idra was a practice partner of CJ Entus - Brock then made his name in WWE/F, things may diverge slightly differently here though, as Idra was a good foreigner in BW, but probably one of the actual few to adapt and partake in that heavy 12 hour per day Korean practice regimen. Even as top of the heap of pro wrestling whether a heel or face, you can look up the wear and tear these guys put their bodies through. Pro Wrestlers spend a majority of the year travelling and doing house shows, many can easily get addicted to painkillers and lead a tragic life as well. Their life wasn't easy, but they do it for the pursuit of being good entertainers. - Brock goes into MMA, defeats Min Soo Kim, but eventually signs onto the UFC, takes on Heath Herring, then former UFC HW Champ Frank Mir (and although he loses, there was some controversy with the ref). But eventually Brock gets a title shot and becomes the UFC HW champion. During Brock's short reign, he easily becomes the biggest draw to the UFC itself where they would get around a million PPV buys. The question of Brock's legitimacy into MMA is due to his background of being a WWE wrestler, some write off or even ignore his NCAA D1 pedigree. He becomes a figure people either love or hate to watch, but he puts asses in the seats. - Idra does well in SC2 beta as well as progresses his career with various wins. His character or persona is further galvanized as a person who can be quite BM if need be. Similar to Brock, he became a player that people either love to hate to watch as well.
At this point, Brock is more or less retired from MMA and is back to pro wrestling, I figure part time with the WWE. And recently had a feud with Triple H if I recall (I don't really keep up to date much with WWE, but HHH or Paul Levesque as his real name, is married to Stephanie McMahon - daughter of WWE Chairman of Vince McMahon, and HHH himself holds a very high position in the company too). So Brock still does pro wrestling with big names for a paycheck. Not that he needs it. But he retired mainly due to him feeling that he's probably not best in shape any more to compete at that level. His bout with Diverticulitis pretty much ensured that.
Idra though, is still going with his pro gaming career obviously, but for now it seems like his best days may be behind him. He could come back and put results again, but outside of his streaming just for ladder grinding, I don't recall seeing Idra really compete let alone place at a big event for quite awhile.
Anyone else find the comparison between Brock Lesnar and Idra slightly amusing?
I admit I kinda made a stretch, but there's clearly some parts that make sense. And the end goal is exactly as stated. EG has a big name in Idra that people love/hate. UFC had the same with Brock, I don't think UFC has yet to beat their PPV sales amount since then when Brock was around.
I don't know, I think your comparison comes up a little short.
...sorry.
OK, well tell me how? Just saying it's amusing and it coming up short doesn't really satisfy my curiosity as to why you don't like it. B/C honestly, while at first it may seem like a stretch, logically it does have fairly apt comparisons.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Guys, EG is not 'abusing the system.' It's called capitalism.
Many sports teams don't rely on results. If NBA teams relied exclusively on championships as their primary revenue source, the average payroll of a team would be less than 10 million dollars, the Lebron James would probably make a couple million dollars a year and there would only be six teams in the whole league.
Some of you might think that EG makes too much money off of sponsorship and merchandise. Well, maybe compared to other teams, but a) those teams don't know what they're doing and b) THAT'S WHAT EVERY TEAM IN EVERY MAJOR SPORTS DOES.
If you guys are seriously disappointed that esports isn't a meritocracy, than you are in for a rude fucking awakening when you hit the real world.
On May 08 2013 01:31 radscorpion9 wrote: I think you're definitely right in that charisma plays a big role. Whenever Idra plays you have as many as ten thousand people watching his stream (if I recall correctly), even if he isn't necessarily as successful these days as he used to be.
But I think we should ensure that it remains a secondary focus, not the primary one. Because if people are watching players like Idra or Destiny just because of their colorful personalities, then the business model of esports isn't about the game anymore and just becomes a bit of a joke, in that people will just watch for moments of rage or witty commentary, or because a person is generally funny. At that point it has nothing to do with esports, its just about watching funny people play a game (the game doesn't matter).
For example that's actually the primary reason I watch day9, particularly on fridays or mondays. Most of the time I find sc2 games lackluster and boring because they follow a very standardized pattern of gameplay, but his commentary is hilarious, and I love all of his personal stories.
I think it also extends to casters; lots of people love watching incontrol and think he's a funny guy, but we should try to keep in mind that your knowledge about the game comes first, comedy second. Otherwise its just bizarre in that you are watching a comedy routine in a totally wrong setting.
Edit: Also I'm not even sure if the people above me read your post. He's asking whether we need more charsimatic, WWE type personalities in the game in order to make esports more popular. Stop with the insults, just read the final two paragraphs. That basically summarizes it. This is absolutely not a "dick measuring contest" between EG fans and haters, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion!
Fair, but I'm pretty sure EG's a business and when a team is a business, its primary focus won't be to win and be the best. Sure it'll be one of their goals, but then if you're the best player in the world but no one knows about u, how is it gonna make u money?
It's better to have a lesser product with a wider audience than a better product with very few audience. EG already has a very wide following, now if they can 'better' their skills and actually become one of the top teams, then their popularity would skyrocket.
Example: Dendi from Navi (Dota 2) - Likes to joke around, trolls people, dances, dorky, but considered by many as the best player..
Let's be real. People watch people because of their personality. If you're a fuckin genius, but your personality sucks, who'd like u? No one..
Yeah Dendi is a great example of a player who is simply a goldmine in terms of popularity, great personality and great at the game, kind of similar to IdrA in 2010 or Stephano in 2011-2012. (and note how EG quickly snapped up both of those)
I wonder if EG tried to get PartinG, he seems (from interview translations) to be more interesting than 90% of foreigners and we know he's more skilled than any foreigner. Have him learn a bit of English and stream from time to time (like MC did) and you've got a similar "goldmine".
EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team.
In one sense, you're correct. However, in the context of the fact that they're trying to compete in this game, you're 100% wrong. EG had favored content production and selling their players/themselves as a brand. If you're looking to generate income based upon sponsorships and such, this is a fine model. But what would someone say if the Yankees were losing every game, but still had a sick roster and sponsors? They'd probably say it didn't add up. I say "had favored" because as we know, EG moves now to San Fransisco to -allegedly- focus themselves more on practice and raising the skill of their players. Unfortunately, I expect similar results to that which the Lair in AZ produced, which was none at all in the scheme of things.
I wish EG the best and I truly hope this SF move refocuses their players and resources to push their results forward; but as of now, they're a marketable brand, not a championship team.
Also, this thread is going to be terrible and turn into a shit-flinging contest. Don't expect it to stick around for too long.
Athletes in major sports are paid ONLY for performance, since the team's money doesn't come primarily from sponsorships/advertising. In e-sports, nearly all of it comes from sponsorships so players are worth the size of their fanbase. Also, it isn't hard to have a "stand-out" personality in the gaming world. If you have anything close to resembling a personality at all (other than well-mannered robot) then you will be a crowd favorite.
I would agree that they are first and foremost a business, and the reason I say that is that their stream numbers are consistently the highest. Stephano, Demuslim, Idra, Jaedong, etc etc etc. I hate to admit it but I think their performance is lacking and I dont see that changing really, maybe demuslim can make a splash in some tourneys and suppy can continue to progress, also Jaedong obviously has the potential.. idk I like them for their product not so much because I think they are the most talented. Incontrol is a living entity of that point, I love his personality.
On May 08 2013 01:19 DiMano wrote: I do not like teams that buy the best players from other teams to artificially become the best. EG has killed TSL and I hate them for this so much.
No, no, no. It doesn't work that way.
I can understand if you dislike them for buying a lot of good players, but EG didn't kill TSL. TSL had no sponsors or money at the end, that isn't EGs fault.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Guys, EG is not 'abusing the system.' It's called capitalism.
Many sports teams don't rely on results. If NBA teams relied exclusively on championships as their primary revenue source, the average payroll of a team would be less than 10 million dollars, the Lebron James would probably make a couple million dollars a year and there would only be six teams in the whole league.
Some of you might think that EG makes too much money off of sponsorship and merchandise. Well, maybe compared to other teams, but a) those teams don't know what they're doing and b) THAT'S WHAT EVERY TEAM IN EVERY MAJOR SPORTS DOES.
If you guys are seriously disappointed that esports isn't a meritocracy, than you are in for a rude fucking awakening when you hit the real world.
Sorry I didn't put that in quotes, i figured that my post was sarcastic enough to not need them. : (
On May 08 2013 01:31 radscorpion9 wrote: I think you're definitely right in that charisma plays a big role. Whenever Idra plays you have as many as ten thousand people watching his stream (if I recall correctly), even if he isn't necessarily as successful these days as he used to be.
But I think we should ensure that it remains a secondary focus, not the primary one. Because if people are watching players like Idra or Destiny just because of their colorful personalities, then the business model of esports isn't about the game anymore and just becomes a bit of a joke, in that people will just watch for moments of rage or witty commentary, or because a person is generally funny. At that point it has nothing to do with esports, its just about watching funny people play a game (the game doesn't matter).
For example that's actually the primary reason I watch day9, particularly on fridays or mondays. Most of the time I find sc2 games lackluster and boring because they follow a very standardized pattern of gameplay, but his commentary is hilarious, and I love all of his personal stories.
I think it also extends to casters; lots of people love watching incontrol and think he's a funny guy, but we should try to keep in mind that your knowledge about the game comes first, comedy second. Otherwise its just bizarre in that you are watching a comedy routine in a totally wrong setting.
Edit: Also I'm not even sure if the people above me read your post. He's asking whether we need more charsimatic, WWE type personalities in the game in order to make esports more popular. Stop with the insults, just read the final two paragraphs. That basically summarizes it. This is absolutely not a "dick measuring contest" between EG fans and haters, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion!
Fair, but I'm pretty sure EG's a business and when a team is a business, its primary focus won't be to win and be the best. Sure it'll be one of their goals, but then if you're the best player in the world but no one knows about u, how is it gonna make u money?
It's better to have a lesser product with a wider audience than a better product with very few audience. EG already has a very wide following, now if they can 'better' their skills and actually become one of the top teams, then their popularity would skyrocket.
Example: Dendi from Navi (Dota 2) - Likes to joke around, trolls people, dances, dorky, but considered by many as the best player..
Let's be real. People watch people because of their personality. If you're a fuckin genius, but your personality sucks, who'd like u? No one..
Yeah Dendi is a great example of a player who is simply a goldmine in terms of popularity, great personality and great at the game, kind of similar to IdrA in 2010 or Stephano in 2011-2012. (and note how EG quickly snapped up both of those)
I wonder if EG tried to get PartinG, he seems (from interview translations) to be more interesting than 90% of foreigners and we know he's more skilled than any foreigner. Have him learn a bit of English and stream from time to time (like MC did) and you've got a similar "goldmine".
Boxer in his prime was the perfect combination of talent, personality (it even showed in his play) and handsome. Sigh. Soooooo handsome.
It's not like EG brought on players like IdrA and Stephano only because they had personality. At the time they were contracted they were all considered great players with tremendous potential.
Yes, even InControl was considered one of the best NA Broodwar players when he joined SC2 during the beta. Being 'a personality' was not the path EG originally mapped out for him.
The insinuation that EG isn't trying to win in addition to make money is silly. Winning a GSL is fucking hard. LOL.
On May 08 2013 01:31 radscorpion9 wrote: I think you're definitely right in that charisma plays a big role. Whenever Idra plays you have as many as ten thousand people watching his stream (if I recall correctly), even if he isn't necessarily as successful these days as he used to be.
But I think we should ensure that it remains a secondary focus, not the primary one. Because if people are watching players like Idra or Destiny just because of their colorful personalities, then the business model of esports isn't about the game anymore and just becomes a bit of a joke, in that people will just watch for moments of rage or witty commentary, or because a person is generally funny. At that point it has nothing to do with esports, its just about watching funny people play a game (the game doesn't matter).
For example that's actually the primary reason I watch day9, particularly on fridays or mondays. Most of the time I find sc2 games lackluster and boring because they follow a very standardized pattern of gameplay, but his commentary is hilarious, and I love all of his personal stories.
I think it also extends to casters; lots of people love watching incontrol and think he's a funny guy, but we should try to keep in mind that your knowledge about the game comes first, comedy second. Otherwise its just bizarre in that you are watching a comedy routine in a totally wrong setting.
Edit: Also I'm not even sure if the people above me read your post. He's asking whether we need more charsimatic, WWE type personalities in the game in order to make esports more popular. Stop with the insults, just read the final two paragraphs. That basically summarizes it. This is absolutely not a "dick measuring contest" between EG fans and haters, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion!
Fair, but I'm pretty sure EG's a business and when a team is a business, its primary focus won't be to win and be the best. Sure it'll be one of their goals, but then if you're the best player in the world but no one knows about u, how is it gonna make u money?
It's better to have a lesser product with a wider audience than a better product with very few audience. EG already has a very wide following, now if they can 'better' their skills and actually become one of the top teams, then their popularity would skyrocket.
Example: Dendi from Navi (Dota 2) - Likes to joke around, trolls people, dances, dorky, but considered by many as the best player..
Let's be real. People watch people because of their personality. If you're a fuckin genius, but your personality sucks, who'd like u? No one..
Yeah Dendi is a great example of a player who is simply a goldmine in terms of popularity, great personality and great at the game, kind of similar to IdrA in 2010 or Stephano in 2011-2012. (and note how EG quickly snapped up both of those)
I wonder if EG tried to get PartinG, he seems (from interview translations) to be more interesting than 90% of foreigners and we know he's more skilled than any foreigner. Have him learn a bit of English and stream from time to time (like MC did) and you've got a similar "goldmine".
Boxer in his prime was the perfect combination of talent, personality (it even showed in his play) and handsome. Sigh. Soooooo handsome.
It's not like EG brought on players like IdrA and Stephano only because they had personality. At the time they were contracted they were all considered great players with tremendous potential.
Yes, even InControl was considered one of the best NA Broodwar players when he joined SC2 during the beta. Being 'a personality' was not the path EG originally mapped out for him.
The insinuation that EG isn't trying to win in addition to make money is silly. Winning a GSL is fucking hard. LOL.
Is it that they're not trying? Or that it doesn't matter 100% in being a successful team? Like, I'm sure they are trying, but the reality is that they dont need to win everything in order to be sustainable, right?
On May 08 2013 01:31 radscorpion9 wrote: I think you're definitely right in that charisma plays a big role. Whenever Idra plays you have as many as ten thousand people watching his stream (if I recall correctly), even if he isn't necessarily as successful these days as he used to be.
But I think we should ensure that it remains a secondary focus, not the primary one. Because if people are watching players like Idra or Destiny just because of their colorful personalities, then the business model of esports isn't about the game anymore and just becomes a bit of a joke, in that people will just watch for moments of rage or witty commentary, or because a person is generally funny. At that point it has nothing to do with esports, its just about watching funny people play a game (the game doesn't matter).
For example that's actually the primary reason I watch day9, particularly on fridays or mondays. Most of the time I find sc2 games lackluster and boring because they follow a very standardized pattern of gameplay, but his commentary is hilarious, and I love all of his personal stories.
I think it also extends to casters; lots of people love watching incontrol and think he's a funny guy, but we should try to keep in mind that your knowledge about the game comes first, comedy second. Otherwise its just bizarre in that you are watching a comedy routine in a totally wrong setting.
Edit: Also I'm not even sure if the people above me read your post. He's asking whether we need more charsimatic, WWE type personalities in the game in order to make esports more popular. Stop with the insults, just read the final two paragraphs. That basically summarizes it. This is absolutely not a "dick measuring contest" between EG fans and haters, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion!
Fair, but I'm pretty sure EG's a business and when a team is a business, its primary focus won't be to win and be the best. Sure it'll be one of their goals, but then if you're the best player in the world but no one knows about u, how is it gonna make u money?
It's better to have a lesser product with a wider audience than a better product with very few audience. EG already has a very wide following, now if they can 'better' their skills and actually become one of the top teams, then their popularity would skyrocket.
Example: Dendi from Navi (Dota 2) - Likes to joke around, trolls people, dances, dorky, but considered by many as the best player..
Let's be real. People watch people because of their personality. If you're a fuckin genius, but your personality sucks, who'd like u? No one..
Yeah Dendi is a great example of a player who is simply a goldmine in terms of popularity, great personality and great at the game, kind of similar to IdrA in 2010 or Stephano in 2011-2012. (and note how EG quickly snapped up both of those)
I wonder if EG tried to get PartinG, he seems (from interview translations) to be more interesting than 90% of foreigners and we know he's more skilled than any foreigner. Have him learn a bit of English and stream from time to time (like MC did) and you've got a similar "goldmine".
Boxer in his prime was the perfect combination of talent, personality (it even showed in his play) and handsome. Sigh. Soooooo handsome.
It's not like EG brought on players like IdrA and Stephano only because they had personality. At the time they were contracted they were all considered great players with tremendous potential.
Yes, even InControl was considered one of the best NA Broodwar players when he joined SC2 during the beta. Being 'a personality' was not the path EG originally mapped out for him.
The insinuation that EG isn't trying to win in addition to make money is silly. Winning a GSL is fucking hard. LOL.
Is it that they're not trying? Or that it doesn't matter 100% in being a successful team? Like, I'm sure they are trying, but the reality is that they dont need to win everything in order to be sustainable, right?
Right. They're trying, but they've also put themselves in a situation where if they fail, they can just try again. It's the position that all companies should aspire to get to, and more importantly a winning strategy in the long run.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
Yup. That's idra's point. He could shit on his fans lawn, hand them a paper bag and they would clean up his shit for him and thank him for shitting on their lawn.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Guys, EG is not 'abusing the system.' It's called capitalism.
Many sports teams don't rely on results. If NBA teams relied exclusively on championships as their primary revenue source, the average payroll of a team would be less than 10 million dollars, the Lebron James would probably make a couple million dollars a year and there would only be six teams in the whole league.
Some of you might think that EG makes too much money off of sponsorship and merchandise. Well, maybe compared to other teams, but a) those teams don't know what they're doing and b) THAT'S WHAT EVERY TEAM IN EVERY MAJOR SPORTS DOES.
If you guys are seriously disappointed that esports isn't a meritocracy, than you are in for a rude fucking awakening when you hit the real world.
This. I don't think people are getting it. If people like the Kansas City Royals made money only off winning things, they would be broke. Sponsorships are what drive professional sports, people want to see winners, but there will always be winners, there will always be someone to rise to the top; the issue is if there is enough money present to sustain that level of committment. Right now, the end-goal of a starcraft player is to make money, they don't even think of doing that until they reach the tip top, that is the biggest problem. Wages should be guaranteed by sponsorships in the first place, to make sc2 a legit sport, sc2 has to treat its players like people with legit jobs. As of right now, things are very much wild-west like, and while the scene has a lot of stability compared to other games, that isn't saying much compared to the stability of more mainstream professional teams. EG makes money the way more prominent and standard sports do, and honestly that is the only way towards sc2 teams having permanency in any real way.
On May 08 2013 01:31 radscorpion9 wrote: I think you're definitely right in that charisma plays a big role. Whenever Idra plays you have as many as ten thousand people watching his stream (if I recall correctly), even if he isn't necessarily as successful these days as he used to be.
But I think we should ensure that it remains a secondary focus, not the primary one. Because if people are watching players like Idra or Destiny just because of their colorful personalities, then the business model of esports isn't about the game anymore and just becomes a bit of a joke, in that people will just watch for moments of rage or witty commentary, or because a person is generally funny. At that point it has nothing to do with esports, its just about watching funny people play a game (the game doesn't matter).
For example that's actually the primary reason I watch day9, particularly on fridays or mondays. Most of the time I find sc2 games lackluster and boring because they follow a very standardized pattern of gameplay, but his commentary is hilarious, and I love all of his personal stories.
I think it also extends to casters; lots of people love watching incontrol and think he's a funny guy, but we should try to keep in mind that your knowledge about the game comes first, comedy second. Otherwise its just bizarre in that you are watching a comedy routine in a totally wrong setting.
Edit: Also I'm not even sure if the people above me read your post. He's asking whether we need more charsimatic, WWE type personalities in the game in order to make esports more popular. Stop with the insults, just read the final two paragraphs. That basically summarizes it. This is absolutely not a "dick measuring contest" between EG fans and haters, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion!
Fair, but I'm pretty sure EG's a business and when a team is a business, its primary focus won't be to win and be the best. Sure it'll be one of their goals, but then if you're the best player in the world but no one knows about u, how is it gonna make u money?
It's better to have a lesser product with a wider audience than a better product with very few audience. EG already has a very wide following, now if they can 'better' their skills and actually become one of the top teams, then their popularity would skyrocket.
Example: Dendi from Navi (Dota 2) - Likes to joke around, trolls people, dances, dorky, but considered by many as the best player..
Let's be real. People watch people because of their personality. If you're a fuckin genius, but your personality sucks, who'd like u? No one..
Yeah Dendi is a great example of a player who is simply a goldmine in terms of popularity, great personality and great at the game, kind of similar to IdrA in 2010 or Stephano in 2011-2012. (and note how EG quickly snapped up both of those)
I wonder if EG tried to get PartinG, he seems (from interview translations) to be more interesting than 90% of foreigners and we know he's more skilled than any foreigner. Have him learn a bit of English and stream from time to time (like MC did) and you've got a similar "goldmine".
Boxer in his prime was the perfect combination of talent, personality (it even showed in his play) and handsome. Sigh. Soooooo handsome.
It's not like EG brought on players like IdrA and Stephano only because they had personality. At the time they were contracted they were all considered great players with tremendous potential.
Yes, even InControl was considered one of the best NA Broodwar players when he joined SC2 during the beta. Being 'a personality' was not the path EG originally mapped out for him.
The insinuation that EG isn't trying to win in addition to make money is silly. Winning a GSL is fucking hard. LOL.
Is it that they're not trying? Or that it doesn't matter 100% in being a successful team? Like, I'm sure they are trying, but the reality is that they dont need to win everything in order to be sustainable, right?
Is there a NBA, NFL, MLB or NHL team that is going to close down because they haven't won enough titles? The Cubs have not won the World Series in 100 FUCKING YEARS!!!!!! ONE HUNDRED YEARS! There is only one person alive(wiki it if you care) that remembers them winning. ONE PERSON IN THE WHOLE WORLD. We fought two world wars, dealt with the civil rights, learned how to fly and WENT TO THE MOON in the time since their last title win.
So no team will ever go out of business because they do not win. It does not factor into if they a viable team. Winning does not make a team successful as a business. It never has. It never will. All that matters is that you have fans and players who want to play.
On May 08 2013 01:31 radscorpion9 wrote: I think you're definitely right in that charisma plays a big role. Whenever Idra plays you have as many as ten thousand people watching his stream (if I recall correctly), even if he isn't necessarily as successful these days as he used to be.
But I think we should ensure that it remains a secondary focus, not the primary one. Because if people are watching players like Idra or Destiny just because of their colorful personalities, then the business model of esports isn't about the game anymore and just becomes a bit of a joke, in that people will just watch for moments of rage or witty commentary, or because a person is generally funny. At that point it has nothing to do with esports, its just about watching funny people play a game (the game doesn't matter).
For example that's actually the primary reason I watch day9, particularly on fridays or mondays. Most of the time I find sc2 games lackluster and boring because they follow a very standardized pattern of gameplay, but his commentary is hilarious, and I love all of his personal stories.
I think it also extends to casters; lots of people love watching incontrol and think he's a funny guy, but we should try to keep in mind that your knowledge about the game comes first, comedy second. Otherwise its just bizarre in that you are watching a comedy routine in a totally wrong setting.
Edit: Also I'm not even sure if the people above me read your post. He's asking whether we need more charsimatic, WWE type personalities in the game in order to make esports more popular. Stop with the insults, just read the final two paragraphs. That basically summarizes it. This is absolutely not a "dick measuring contest" between EG fans and haters, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion!
Fair, but I'm pretty sure EG's a business and when a team is a business, its primary focus won't be to win and be the best. Sure it'll be one of their goals, but then if you're the best player in the world but no one knows about u, how is it gonna make u money?
It's better to have a lesser product with a wider audience than a better product with very few audience. EG already has a very wide following, now if they can 'better' their skills and actually become one of the top teams, then their popularity would skyrocket.
Example: Dendi from Navi (Dota 2) - Likes to joke around, trolls people, dances, dorky, but considered by many as the best player..
Let's be real. People watch people because of their personality. If you're a fuckin genius, but your personality sucks, who'd like u? No one..
Yeah Dendi is a great example of a player who is simply a goldmine in terms of popularity, great personality and great at the game, kind of similar to IdrA in 2010 or Stephano in 2011-2012. (and note how EG quickly snapped up both of those)
I wonder if EG tried to get PartinG, he seems (from interview translations) to be more interesting than 90% of foreigners and we know he's more skilled than any foreigner. Have him learn a bit of English and stream from time to time (like MC did) and you've got a similar "goldmine".
Boxer in his prime was the perfect combination of talent, personality (it even showed in his play) and handsome. Sigh. Soooooo handsome.
It's not like EG brought on players like IdrA and Stephano only because they had personality. At the time they were contracted they were all considered great players with tremendous potential.
Yes, even InControl was considered one of the best NA Broodwar players when he joined SC2 during the beta. Being 'a personality' was not the path EG originally mapped out for him.
The insinuation that EG isn't trying to win in addition to make money is silly. Winning a GSL is fucking hard. LOL.
Is it that they're not trying? Or that it doesn't matter 100% in being a successful team? Like, I'm sure they are trying, but the reality is that they dont need to win everything in order to be sustainable, right?
Is there a NBA, NFL, MLB or NHL team that is going to close down because they haven't won enough titles? The Cubs have not won the World Series in 100 FUCKING YEARS!!!!!! ONE HUNDRED YEARS! There is only one person alive(wiki it if you care) that remembers them winning. ONE PERSON IN THE WHOLE WORLD. We fought two world wars, dealt with the civil rights, learned how to fly and WENT TO THE MOON in the time since their last title win.
So no team will ever go out of business because they do not win. It does not factor into if they a viable team. Winning does not make a team successful as a business. It never has. It never will. All that matters is that you have fans and players who want to play.
Just to play devil's advocate, teams that don't win ever don't tend to retain fans. Using an example like the cubs, they don't win, but there is the possibility they can win. If a team clearly will never win 100% guaranteed they are far less viable. Especially when you bring into consideration we are probably years and years and years away from things like revenue sharing that help to keep less viable teams viable.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
Yup. That's idra's point. He could shit on his fans lawn, hand them a paper bag and they would clean up his shit for him and thank him for shitting on their lawn.
Nope, that's not it. He actually is nice to his fans, the people he referred to as "fucks" are the ever-so-offendended, hypocritical-about-balance-issues and slightly dumb part of the TL forum community.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
Yup. That's idra's point. He could shit on his fans lawn, hand them a paper bag and they would clean up his shit for him and thank him for shitting on their lawn.
Nope, that's not it. He actually is nice to his fans, the people he referred to as "fucks" are the ever-so-offendended, hypocritical-about-balance-issues and slightly dumb part of the TL forum community.
Disagree. He's referring to both. The people who like idra are the immature part of the community that love bm players and love to see rage. That is his fan demographic and he panders to them well and it's earned him a lot of money. Idra could shit on them and they would love it and expect it. I'm not an Idra fan, but I can't argue against the success his persona has earned him in regards to fans and money.
There's a sizeable portion of the community that just loves bm players. Idra saw that and one was one of the first to capitalize on it. That makes him a smart businessman...at least esportswise.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
Yup. That's idra's point. He could shit on his fans lawn, hand them a paper bag and they would clean up his shit for him and thank him for shitting on their lawn.
Nope, that's not it. He actually is nice to his fans, the people he referred to as "fucks" are the ever-so-offendended, hypocritical-about-balance-issues and slightly dumb part of the TL forum community.
Disagree. He's referring to both. The people who like idra are the immature part of the community that love bm players and love to see rage. That is his fan demographic and he panders to them well and it's earned him a lot of money. Idra could shit on them and they would love it and expect it. I'm not an Idra fan, but I can't argue against the success his persona has earned him in regards to fans and money.
There's a sizeable portion of the community that just loves bm players. Idra saw that and one was one of the first to capitalize on it. That makes him a smart businessman...at least esportswise.
I'm an IdrA fan, but not because of his BM. It's because he's actually very talented at commentating and analyzing on the fly, and talking through his thought process during games (when he does). And he's not a risky or gimmicky player, which makes him actually a good player to mimic if you're a novice zerg trying to learn the game.
Although you're probably right, in the sense. IdrA probably hates himself enough to believe all his fans are shit heads, and that he needs to pander to them in order to make a living. It's a shame, really.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
Yup. That's idra's point. He could shit on his fans lawn, hand them a paper bag and they would clean up his shit for him and thank him for shitting on their lawn.
Nope, that's not it. He actually is nice to his fans, the people he referred to as "fucks" are the ever-so-offendended, hypocritical-about-balance-issues and slightly dumb part of the TL forum community.
Disagree. He's referring to both. The people who like idra are the immature part of the community that love bm players and love to see rage. That is his fan demographic and he panders to them well and it's earned him a lot of money. Idra could shit on them and they would love it and expect it. I'm not an Idra fan, but I can't argue against the success his persona has earned him in regards to fans and money.
There's a sizeable portion of the community that just loves bm players. Idra saw that and one was one of the first to capitalize on it. That makes him a smart businessman...at least esportswise.
You don't know what you are talking about. I do not agree with everything Idra does myself. And if you look at his fanclub, the people there always support him, but are also highly critical if he bms other players or throws away games because of his sometimes horrible attitude. His interactions with fans on live events seem to be all positive. Also:
On June 24 2012 14:36 IdrA wrote: i have the best fans ever you guys kick ass
Your post makes blindfold assumptions, painting Idra as some kind of showman who only cares about the money, not the game. He actually knows what he is talking about, even balance-wise, if he is for example commentating and not playing himself. People are forgetting about his time in BW, where he was one of the first foreigners to go to Korea and be successful, which is also a big reason why so many follow him even if he loses games. The question is, why am I trying to explain this to a guy who just puts all Korean players in his forum signature as soon as they are considered to be one of the best at any point in time???
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
Yup. That's idra's point. He could shit on his fans lawn, hand them a paper bag and they would clean up his shit for him and thank him for shitting on their lawn.
Nope, that's not it. He actually is nice to his fans, the people he referred to as "fucks" are the ever-so-offendended, hypocritical-about-balance-issues and slightly dumb part of the TL forum community.
Disagree. He's referring to both. The people who like idra are the immature part of the community that love bm players and love to see rage. That is his fan demographic and he panders to them well and it's earned him a lot of money. Idra could shit on them and they would love it and expect it. I'm not an Idra fan, but I can't argue against the success his persona has earned him in regards to fans and money.
There's a sizeable portion of the community that just loves bm players. Idra saw that and one was one of the first to capitalize on it. That makes him a smart businessman...at least esportswise.
On June 24 2012 14:36 IdrA wrote: i have the best fans ever you guys kick ass
Your post makes blindfold assumptions, painting Idra as some kind of showman who only cares about the money, not the game.
You must not be much of an idra fan if you do not know that he hates the game and calls it shit all the time. He's said this fact a ton of times in interviews and on inside the game. However, he likes everything else about esports. The travelling, the fans, etc and that's why he continues to be a progamer, but he actually does not like sc2 at all.
Actually, agree and disagree. tbh, marketability is more precisely: a) specific target audience; b) reach. Which beg the questions: Who does the advertiser want to reach? What is the quantity and quality of that reach?
More precisely, advertisers increasingly want to reach males 15 - 24. Where else would you get such a demographic except from gaming? That's what makes EG marketable. However, this is not EG specific. And EG is not big enough to have the quantity of reach. When advertisers/sponsors invest in EG, it is in hopes of getting a permanent placement in eSports as a whole, without doing much work or spending much money. Sponsorships represent a "buy in" into the collective eSports scene, much like how sports sponsorships work (product placement etc). And this only works if the total eSports audience is large enough.
Is EG more marketable because their personality? Maybe. But that is obviously not a sticking point for advertisers. For EG to be marketable, they must be able to prove to advertisers that they can reach a certain number/percentage of males 15-24 (based on my hypothesis in the above paragraph). If they can do that, they are marketable. If they can't, they are not.
edit: Also would like to note that private companies not legally bound to post their financial results. edit2: Waxangel, you troll... lol
Hmmm, I wouldn't say they are talentless. Demuslim is one of the best foreign terrans, Suppy and Stephano are two of the best foreign zergs. Everyone on the team was a top foreigner at some point (besides their Koreans of course).
What's wrong with rooting for players that you like over who as the most "skill" (ignoring that, as I said, EG players are by no means "bad")? I root for the Rockies and Broncos when they do well and when they do poorly because they're my hometown teams, and there is an emotional component there. E-sports doesn't have hometown teams, so the next closest thing is rooting for people you like and can relate to.
As awesome as it often is to watch players at the level of Flash and Innovation play each other, ultimately they're two Koreans who don't speak my language and who aren't a part of my culture and thus I have no way to really gauge their personalities or develop an attachment to them. As far as who they are as people, they're interchangeable from my point of view. On the other hand, someone like DeMuslim is somebody who speaks my language, is culturally similar to myself, and has a personality that I can read and like. I also like him because I play Terran and he is one of the top foreign Terrans. If he dropped to mid-masters, I wouldn't watch him. So people who tell me I don't care at all about "skill" are just wrong. The difference is I don't just care about skill.
I'll tell you this, I had far more fun and emotional thrills from watching Demuslim try to get into WCS NA Premier league, and fail by one game, and then succeed in getting into challenger, than I did watching any match-up between two Koreans. If this is true of someone like me, then you better bet your ass it is true of the "casuals". The EG model may be flawed, they may emphasize marketing and personality a bit too much, but something like what they do will be necessary to grow the number of SC2 spectators and to make E-Sports mainstream.
And one more thing, people who root for the people with the most "skill" are called "fair-weather fans" in traditional sports, and they're not held in high-esteem. Food for thought.
On May 08 2013 01:31 radscorpion9 wrote: I think you're definitely right in that charisma plays a big role. Whenever Idra plays you have as many as ten thousand people watching his stream (if I recall correctly), even if he isn't necessarily as successful these days as he used to be.
But I think we should ensure that it remains a secondary focus, not the primary one. Because if people are watching players like Idra or Destiny just because of their colorful personalities, then the business model of esports isn't about the game anymore and just becomes a bit of a joke, in that people will just watch for moments of rage or witty commentary, or because a person is generally funny. At that point it has nothing to do with esports, its just about watching funny people play a game (the game doesn't matter).
For example that's actually the primary reason I watch day9, particularly on fridays or mondays. Most of the time I find sc2 games lackluster and boring because they follow a very standardized pattern of gameplay, but his commentary is hilarious, and I love all of his personal stories.
I think it also extends to casters; lots of people love watching incontrol and think he's a funny guy, but we should try to keep in mind that your knowledge about the game comes first, comedy second. Otherwise its just bizarre in that you are watching a comedy routine in a totally wrong setting.
Edit: Also I'm not even sure if the people above me read your post. He's asking whether we need more charsimatic, WWE type personalities in the game in order to make esports more popular. Stop with the insults, just read the final two paragraphs. That basically summarizes it. This is absolutely not a "dick measuring contest" between EG fans and haters, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion!
Fair, but I'm pretty sure EG's a business and when a team is a business, its primary focus won't be to win and be the best. Sure it'll be one of their goals, but then if you're the best player in the world but no one knows about u, how is it gonna make u money?
It's better to have a lesser product with a wider audience than a better product with very few audience. EG already has a very wide following, now if they can 'better' their skills and actually become one of the top teams, then their popularity would skyrocket.
Example: Dendi from Navi (Dota 2) - Likes to joke around, trolls people, dances, dorky, but considered by many as the best player..
Let's be real. People watch people because of their personality. If you're a fuckin genius, but your personality sucks, who'd like u? No one..
Yeah Dendi is a great example of a player who is simply a goldmine in terms of popularity, great personality and great at the game, kind of similar to IdrA in 2010 or Stephano in 2011-2012. (and note how EG quickly snapped up both of those)
I wonder if EG tried to get PartinG, he seems (from interview translations) to be more interesting than 90% of foreigners and we know he's more skilled than any foreigner. Have him learn a bit of English and stream from time to time (like MC did) and you've got a similar "goldmine".
Boxer in his prime was the perfect combination of talent, personality (it even showed in his play) and handsome. Sigh. Soooooo handsome.
It's not like EG brought on players like IdrA and Stephano only because they had personality. At the time they were contracted they were all considered great players with tremendous potential.
Yes, even InControl was considered one of the best NA Broodwar players when he joined SC2 during the beta. Being 'a personality' was not the path EG originally mapped out for him.
The insinuation that EG isn't trying to win in addition to make money is silly. Winning a GSL is fucking hard. LOL.
Is it that they're not trying? Or that it doesn't matter 100% in being a successful team? Like, I'm sure they are trying, but the reality is that they dont need to win everything in order to be sustainable, right?
Is there a NBA, NFL, MLB or NHL team that is going to close down because they haven't won enough titles? The Cubs have not won the World Series in 100 FUCKING YEARS!!!!!! ONE HUNDRED YEARS! There is only one person alive(wiki it if you care) that remembers them winning. ONE PERSON IN THE WHOLE WORLD. We fought two world wars, dealt with the civil rights, learned how to fly and WENT TO THE MOON in the time since their last title win.
So no team will ever go out of business because they do not win. It does not factor into if they a viable team. Winning does not make a team successful as a business. It never has. It never will. All that matters is that you have fans and players who want to play.
Just to play devil's advocate, teams that don't win ever don't tend to retain fans. Using an example like the cubs, they don't win, but there is the possibility they can win. If a team clearly will never win 100% guaranteed they are far less viable. Especially when you bring into consideration we are probably years and years and years away from things like revenue sharing that help to keep less viable teams viable.
Actually, if you follow baseball closely at all, you know that the cubs have been a huge laughingstock for the better part of the last two decades. The last few seasons you knew they would finish bottom in their division and you know they'll finish last this year. Yet, despite all that, they're still the most profitable team in all of professional baseball.
Pro teams in the major sports have a vastly different position than e-sports. Teams make more money off ONE game than a major LAN such as MLG makes every few months. They've already established their viewing base and foundational income. They can afford to try to pay money solely for talent because that's the key to making them even more profitable on top of the media sponserships and ticket sales. Those teams can focus purely on improving performance in an attempt to make even more money rather than in an attempt to stay economically viable.
Sorry that too many people are trolling you because they disagree with your second sentence, and didn't bother reading the whole op, especially the end.
As to people saying EG only buys personality, and doesn't care about results/skill. Alive/OZ were not at the top of their game, and they are currently getting better and better. In fact, Alive is starting to look like he has the potential to become one of the greats.
JYP was never huge, and has gotten better imo, especially his team leagues.
Stephano/Huk/Idra may not be top of their game, and yes EG bought them when they were doing well, but just because EG buys a few famous people, doesn't mean they dont care about getting better. They have helped foster Suppy really well.
And last but not least, how can you say a team doesn't care about results when they buy Coach Park, who does indeed seem to be making a impact. It was pointless to think EG-TL would do good this proleague, but next I guarantee they will at least be in the middle of the rankings come round 4 or so.
TLDR: this thread is just inviting 'i love eg' or 'i hate eg' posts. Too many people can't look at the scope of the team, or even the scope of your thread.
On May 08 2013 23:06 ohampatu wrote: Sorry that too many people are trolling you because they disagree with your second sentence, and didn't bother reading the whole op, especially the end.
As to people saying EG only buys personality, and doesn't care about results/skill. Alive/OZ were not at the top of their game, and they are currently getting better and better. In fact, Alive is starting to look like he has the potential to become one of the greats.
JYP was never huge, and has gotten better imo, especially his team leagues.
Stephano/Huk/Idra may not be top of their game, and yes EG bought them when they were doing well, but just because EG buys a few famous people, doesn't mean they dont care about getting better. They have helped foster Suppy really well.
And last but not least, how can you say a team doesn't care about results when they buy Coach Park, who does indeed seem to be making a impact. It was pointless to think EG-TL would do good this proleague, but next I guarantee they will at least be in the middle of the rankings come round 4 or so.
TLDR: this thread is just inviting 'i love eg' or 'i hate eg' posts. Too many people can't look at the scope of the team, or even the scope of your thread.
But, you did! I kind of grown to expect some of the responses I've gotten when posting on forums. There are always people that respond intelligently, like yourself.
Yeah, like you said, this can be tough to talk about without peoples feelings toward EG making them sour about the discussion.
EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
On May 08 2013 09:04 MoonfireSpam wrote: It is kinda funny it works. Buy hey, people are dumb fucks for the most part :> EG needs to get that bitcoin code from ESEA, they could probably get people to run it willingly.
EG: "Drink Monster and buy our shit you dumb fucks" EG fans: "Sure, just cos you so badass <3." EG: "Hell while you're at it, mine bitcoins for us pls, here's a short promo video and an EG wallpaper / screensaver" EG fans: "YAY stuff"
I think if EG were actually a "model" team, fans wouldn't feel insecure enough to make posts like this? :O
Certainly a great business model, though. They're highly profitable in spite of having an unfortunate string of... coincidences of slumping players and poor team-play results.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: You can start this discussion based on one fact. Love em' or hate em', team EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team. Their ideology can be applied to any sport or hobby that generates income based on marketing. They take the most sought after individuals in a community and stamp a brand on them that raises their value, even after the fact.
I disagree, but will respond to your individual points.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: As a person who has followed the eSports scene for over a decade now. I can't help but think the rise of Evil Geniuses is exactly what this community needs. Don't get me wrong, Evil Geniuses has always been a force in the North American esports scene. But, it was never quite as marketable and dominant as it is in the SC2 scene now. Earlier memories of EG are their CS team that always stood in the shadow of other foreign teams like Complexity and 3D.
Funny you mention those 2 as examples. Complexity and 3D were classic AMERICAN CS teams. EG stood in their shadow NOT because they were American, but because they were not as successful with competitive results (aka not as good).
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: How is it different now than it was then? The only thing that would make sense is the obvious thing in business. They made the right decisions at the right time. Number one on that list was picking up Greg 'IdrA' Fields early on. Greg was an enormous personality (still is) early on in the game. Whether it be from his results at MLG or from his character that seemed to attract lovers and haters alike. He is big. People like to watch Greg because he was a top contender in the scene at the time. On top of it all, they never knew what they were going to get from him. Lets face it, a vast majority of people follow Greg and its not always to see him win.
People watched Greg initially because he was good AND had a fiery personality. If Idra didn't have the skills, he would have been outright dismissed.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: Pair good business decisions with great timing and it seemed like the evolution of Team EG was bound for success. They have an organization that could essentially never net a single result and still command a larger following of fans than most (if not all) Korean and foreign teams. I understand Korea and their fans are the father of this scene. But, what has it done for foreigners so far? Brood War had a foreign scene, no where near as massive as the Korean scene. What did it do for eSports globally? Looking back in the scope of things, not much. You could argue that without the Korean Brood War scene, none of this would be possible. Those people would be 100% correct. But, that doesn't subdue the fact that the numbers dwindled in the foreign scene; Different cultures, different interests- fair enough. But, we NEED foreign teams like EG to expand our scene.
...
We could literally be on the cusp of a paradigm change. That still doesn't make the future of eSports even remotely close to a guaranteed success. We still need to have those teams who can be marketable. In the end, this can't just be about players watching professionals. There needs to be attraction to the scene based on players and teams. There needs to be that same structure we see in successful entertainment now. It may be enough for us that people are playing SC2, but will it be enough for the person who hasn't?
This is where a team like Evil Geniuses excels. They are the definition of marketable. They may not have the quality of player, as a whole, that you see on Korean teams (there are exceptions). What do they have the most of though? Players you WANT to watch. You may want to see them win, you may want to see them fail. But, you want to see them. Thats the difference between Evil Geniuses and any Korean team. Koreans draw you in with their skill, EG draws you in with their personalities. A person observing this community can't help but notice EG understands the same thing, which is the bigger picture.They have the means to contract the biggest personalities and they do so. The charisma of their players shine through any performance, or lack there of.
There's a lot going on here, but the crux of what you seem to be arguing is:
1. The stage is set for eSports to explode across the nation 2. Korean teams have skilled players, but this is not enough to grow the scene 3. EG may not be successful in competition, but has "marketable personalities" that are crucial to the growth of the scene
This "marketable personality" thing is UTTER BULLSHIT in my opinion. I noticed you're from the United States. Of COURSE EG players have more "personality" for you. You relate to them, you speak their language, and there are 0 barriers to communication.
The idea that foreign players are more "personable" than Koreans is garbage. As someone who understands Korean, I can tell you that a lot shines through about the individual characteristics of the Korean players when you hear and read about them in Korean. There is a reason why Koreans overwhelmingly supported certain players over another. The storylines and rivalries that were legendary in BW couldn't exist without the personalities of these players. The most successful Korean BW players did commercials, interviews, and participated in reality TV shows. This is all because of personality and marketability.
The REAL REASON we need more teams like EG is not because they have "more" personality. It's because foreign teams capture the hearts of foreign audiences - exactly like what EG is doing for you as an American. So yes, if the final argument is that we need more foreign teams, then I COMPLETELY AGREE.
But don't think for a second that just because you can fully understand what the player of one team is saying in an interview (because he's speaking English) means that guy has "more personality."
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: For eSports to break those barriers, we need more personalities and teams like EG. We need to catch that 'WWF' persona, in a sense. You don't always watch it for the action. You watch it to see whats going to happen next. Could you imagine another team with the resources and pool of personality EG has in eSports? It could only stand to attract those viewers who've never seen SC2 before. Hell, it could even spawn a realty television series.
This is a terrible comparison. We don't want eSports to become a mocked performance show like the WWF, one that is never taken seriously.
Personality is important, I agree. But skill and competitive success come first, ALWAYS. If anything, EG is a classic example of what we SHOULDN'T be doing in the foreign scene - namely, spending sponsorship money to fund "personable" players who are competitively unsuccessful.
Until you put competitive success first and fanboyism/personality-worship on the backburner, you will always have a string of mediocre players who draw a mediocre crowd of friends and supporters, but cannot capture the hearts and imagination of the general public.
Do you know who the uncaring masses give a shit about? WINNERS. This is why basketball and baseball are huge in America, but soccer is not. Likewise, this is why soccer is massive in Europe, but basketball comparatively is not.
Imagine if you had an American team who beat the Korean machines at their own game, captured championships, and could talk about their process and victories in English? THAT is the next step of growing eSports in America. But as long as you have all talk and no results, you are doomed to be classified as niche interest because the PUBLIC DOESN'T CARE ABOUT LOSERS.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
Yup. That's idra's point. He could shit on his fans lawn, hand them a paper bag and they would clean up his shit for him and thank him for shitting on their lawn.
Nope, that's not it. He actually is nice to his fans, the people he referred to as "fucks" are the ever-so-offendended, hypocritical-about-balance-issues and slightly dumb part of the TL forum community.
Nah sorry bud, he thinks this about most-everyone, even his own Team-mates. If you don't realize that by now, you'll never realize this and continue to be one of the sheep he's cashing out on.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
Really? What I read into that post is that Idra thinks his fans/stream watchers are a bunch of cunts but he does not care because he is making money out of them anyway. Can not say I would be too happy hearing that if I was a fan, luckily I am not that naive.
Yup. That's idra's point. He could shit on his fans lawn, hand them a paper bag and they would clean up his shit for him and thank him for shitting on their lawn.
Nope, that's not it. He actually is nice to his fans, the people he referred to as "fucks" are the ever-so-offendended, hypocritical-about-balance-issues and slightly dumb part of the TL forum community.
Nah sorry bud, he thinks this about most-everyone, even his own Team-mates. If you don't realize that by now, you'll never realize this and continue to be one of the sheep he's cashing out on.
That guy proves the point of "he could shit in your lawn" exactly. He believes Idra actually gives a fuck about him. He believes he isn't one of the "fucks" or "dumbasses" when Idra calls people those names. I just don't understand how people can think that way. I watch idra because he acts like an 8 year old who got his pop rocks taken away. I run adblock because no I don't think someone like that should be making money from it. People watch Idra for the same reason they go to the circus. To see someone act like a tool/idiot/dumbass. That's what Idra provides. Sure it's entertaining, but it's not mature in the slightest.
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age.
I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish.
While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small.
It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values.
There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age.
I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish.
While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small.
It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values.
There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age.
I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish.
While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small.
It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values.
There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
Considering his results in the last year, he probably should.
On May 09 2013 10:28 Applesmack wrote: IdrA has actually started to offend me. That hasn't happened before. He is going a bit too far.
Seems like most people are finally starting to have epiphanies about Idra
5 things about Idra that should be absolutely clear by now :
1. Idra is not any different in real life than he is online
2. Idra has real emotional issues
3. Idra is anti-social and doesn't get along well with other people
4. Idra has an inflated ego from his financial and previous tournament success
5. Idra is only playing for money at this point - he hates Starcraft 2 as a game and is becoming apathetic towards it
Yeah, it might be time for him to move on. While he still posts huge stream numbers it's starting to have a negative effect on EG's brand overall.
Because less face it — maybe this topic wouldn't even exist if a player like IdrA wasn't on EG. When you think about it, IdrA's fame and financial success DESPITE his lack of passion or success in game is probably THE driving factor that makes people question whether EG cares more about money than results.
A great deal of EG's brand is defined, in the community's mind, by IdrA's reputation.Does anyone question the integrity of players like InControl, DeMuslim, Jaedong, Thorzain, Suppy etc? Not really. Because they don't openly complain about the game, rage at other players, or just give up in the middle of a fight.
EG. Alex once talked about the importance of competing with a certain level of integrity (in relation to the game Naniwa threw to Nestea.) People will spend good time and money to watch good competition — it's why teams and players have value and can become are commodities. Sports hinges on the pretense that, regardless of the results, players actually care about winning. So even if you're in an unwinnable situation, it's absolutely unacceptable to throw games, not try or give up. It betrays the audience's trust and is bad business.
What IdrA did in WCS today was pretty bad. It's like Allen Iverson refusing to enter a game, with 2 minutes left and his team down 10 points. Yes, it's unlikely you'll win, but he's getting paid to try. That being said, it's not fair to lump IdrA in with other EG players that obviously do try.
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age.
I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish.
While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small.
It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values.
There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
What business is that exactly? The one were only a handful of top-tier players, outside of EG, can afford to rent an apartment or live like normal humans?
FXO is a pet project sponsored by a zillionaire and is a tiny line-item of a massive company.
TL is a one-of-kind, unrepeatable site that survives almost exclusively on free content. It would take another company literally hundreds of thousands of dollars a month to even compete in the same space as TL.
EG is the only team that seems to have a credible business model.
The EG bosses/coaches seem very level headed. They want their players to have a healthy lifestyle seemingly instead of playing all day and night. Though they do work hard and practice, it is probably not like Korean teams and I think they have genuinely good reasons for it that isn't selfish. They want their players, their co-workers to have a healthy, balanced lifestyle which is awesome. They are practical, and seemingly generous, but in cut-throat tournaments like this it may mean some players fall a little from their very top form because they've taken it down a notch because life is for the living too. So they don't always win/dominate like the players may have at one point but I think it's an awesome balance they allow their players to have that you wouldn't normally expect from giants in terms of money in any other platform. They're down to earth basically.
So I don't think what Idra did was a part of EG's plan or anything. He's got his own personal vendetta's to work out it seems, because no other player acts like him.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: You can start this discussion based on one fact. Love em' or hate em', team EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team. Their ideology can be applied to any sport or hobby that generates income based on marketing. They take the most sought after individuals in a community and stamp a brand on them that raises their value, even after the fact.
I disagree, but will respond to your individual points.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: As a person who has followed the eSports scene for over a decade now. I can't help but think the rise of Evil Geniuses is exactly what this community needs. Don't get me wrong, Evil Geniuses has always been a force in the North American esports scene. But, it was never quite as marketable and dominant as it is in the SC2 scene now. Earlier memories of EG are their CS team that always stood in the shadow of other foreign teams like Complexity and 3D.
Funny you mention those 2 as examples. Complexity and 3D were classic AMERICAN CS teams. EG stood in their shadow NOT because they were American, but because they were not as successful with competitive results (aka not as good).
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: How is it different now than it was then? The only thing that would make sense is the obvious thing in business. They made the right decisions at the right time. Number one on that list was picking up Greg 'IdrA' Fields early on. Greg was an enormous personality (still is) early on in the game. Whether it be from his results at MLG or from his character that seemed to attract lovers and haters alike. He is big. People like to watch Greg because he was a top contender in the scene at the time. On top of it all, they never knew what they were going to get from him. Lets face it, a vast majority of people follow Greg and its not always to see him win.
People watched Greg initially because he was good AND had a fiery personality. If Idra didn't have the skills, he would have been outright dismissed.
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: Pair good business decisions with great timing and it seemed like the evolution of Team EG was bound for success. They have an organization that could essentially never net a single result and still command a larger following of fans than most (if not all) Korean and foreign teams. I understand Korea and their fans are the father of this scene. But, what has it done for foreigners so far? Brood War had a foreign scene, no where near as massive as the Korean scene. What did it do for eSports globally? Looking back in the scope of things, not much. You could argue that without the Korean Brood War scene, none of this would be possible. Those people would be 100% correct. But, that doesn't subdue the fact that the numbers dwindled in the foreign scene; Different cultures, different interests- fair enough. But, we NEED foreign teams like EG to expand our scene.
...
We could literally be on the cusp of a paradigm change. That still doesn't make the future of eSports even remotely close to a guaranteed success. We still need to have those teams who can be marketable. In the end, this can't just be about players watching professionals. There needs to be attraction to the scene based on players and teams. There needs to be that same structure we see in successful entertainment now. It may be enough for us that people are playing SC2, but will it be enough for the person who hasn't?
This is where a team like Evil Geniuses excels. They are the definition of marketable. They may not have the quality of player, as a whole, that you see on Korean teams (there are exceptions). What do they have the most of though? Players you WANT to watch. You may want to see them win, you may want to see them fail. But, you want to see them. Thats the difference between Evil Geniuses and any Korean team. Koreans draw you in with their skill, EG draws you in with their personalities. A person observing this community can't help but notice EG understands the same thing, which is the bigger picture.They have the means to contract the biggest personalities and they do so. The charisma of their players shine through any performance, or lack there of.
There's a lot going on here, but the crux of what you seem to be arguing is:
1. The stage is set for eSports to explode across the nation 2. Korean teams have skilled players, but this is not enough to grow the scene 3. EG may not be successful in competition, but has "marketable personalities" that are crucial to the growth of the scene
This "marketable personality" thing is UTTER BULLSHIT in my opinion. I noticed you're from the United States. Of COURSE EG players have more "personality" for you. You relate to them, you speak their language, and there are 0 barriers to communication.
The idea that foreign players are more "personable" than Koreans is garbage. As someone who understands Korean, I can tell you that a lot shines through about the individual characteristics of the Korean players when you hear and read about them in Korean. There is a reason why Koreans overwhelmingly supported certain players over another. The storylines and rivalries that were legendary in BW couldn't exist without the personalities of these players. The most successful Korean BW players did commercials, interviews, and participated in reality TV shows. This is all because of personality and marketability.
The REAL REASON we need more teams like EG is not because they have "more" personality. It's because foreign teams capture the hearts of foreign audiences - exactly like what EG is doing for you as an American. So yes, if the final argument is that we need more foreign teams, then I COMPLETELY AGREE.
But don't think for a second that just because you can fully understand what the player of one team is saying in an interview (because he's speaking English) means that guy has "more personality."
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: For eSports to break those barriers, we need more personalities and teams like EG. We need to catch that 'WWF' persona, in a sense. You don't always watch it for the action. You watch it to see whats going to happen next. Could you imagine another team with the resources and pool of personality EG has in eSports? It could only stand to attract those viewers who've never seen SC2 before. Hell, it could even spawn a realty television series.
This is a terrible comparison. We don't want eSports to become a mocked performance show like the WWF, one that is never taken seriously.
Personality is important, I agree. But skill and competitive success come first, ALWAYS. If anything, EG is a classic example of what we SHOULDN'T be doing in the foreign scene - namely, spending sponsorship money to fund "personable" players who are competitively unsuccessful.
Until you put competitive success first and fanboyism/personality-worship on the backburner, you will always have a string of mediocre players who draw a mediocre crowd of friends and supporters, but cannot capture the hearts and imagination of the general public.
Do you know who the uncaring masses give a shit about? WINNERS. This is why basketball and baseball are huge in America, but soccer is not. Likewise, this is why soccer is massive in Europe, but basketball comparatively is not.
Imagine if you had an American team who beat the Korean machines at their own game, captured championships, and could talk about their process and victories in English? THAT is the next step of growing eSports in America. But as long as you have all talk and no results, you are doomed to be classified as niche interest because the PUBLIC DOESN'T CARE ABOUT LOSERS.
You make some great points. Although, its important to take in to account that I'm only speaking of the foreign scene in this case.
I personally feel that there are a ton of natural handicaps that would inhibit the foreign public to perceive any sort of pro gamer as a winner, regardless of results. There are a million and one reasons that I could give that as to why you could never compare and successful sport with pro gaming. There are undoubtedly similarities. In this case, I'll side with you and give you one reason why I think you could be right. Every sport started out as a recreational hobby. After a while, people started to enjoy it for the entertainment factor. But, all major sports took time to bloom into the entertainment power houses they are today. We could be seeing that same exact thing for pro gaming. If that were the case, the public would love to see winners more so than anything. But, if you watch pro sports, you know that there are characters in every single one of them that people can identify with and love the controversy surrounding those individuals.
Where does this start to fall apart for us? The time part. I don't think Starcraft has the amount of time required to bloom into that power house you see out of professional sports. Technology and the video game industry are expanding far too quickly to capture the attention span of any majority toward a SINGLE game. After all, video games are the entertainment the person is looking for in the first place. I'm sure some of us would follow SC2 scene if we quit the game, but would most people? I wouldn't bet on it.
In the end, we have differences of opinion. You think personality is important, but winners in our scene is what will allow it to bloom in to a entertainment contender. I just don't share the thought as you. Nothing wrong either of our opinions though.
I wouldn't think too much into that WWF thing. I was just trying to give people an idea of the personalities I was speaking about.
On May 08 2013 01:19 DiMano wrote: I do not like teams that buy the best players from other teams to artificially become the best. EG has killed TSL and I hate them for this so much.
So you selfishly hate a team for tempting your favorite players with good wages and living conditions? Nice guy.
On May 09 2013 11:28 Diddywhop wrote:EG is a classic example of what we SHOULDN'T be doing in the foreign scene - namely, spending sponsorship money to fund "personable" players who are competitively unsuccessful.
Pick any team and I can show you competitively unsuccessful players, hell on EG DeMuslim and Suppy for the longest time weren't known and weren't winning anything and now they've gone complete beast mode in the past couple months. Should they have been dropped back when they weren't preforming?
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age.
I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish.
While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small.
It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values.
There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
Defacer is right in a sense, though. If we had teams where the only goal was winning, every team except the best couple would collapse. If nobody ever went to Kansas City Royals games because they sucked, the team wouldn't exist anymore, and that isn't good for anyone. Increasing the number of possible good jobs for people in the scene cannot possibly be bad.
I like EG for producing some great content, but i don't like EG for their excessive advertising. I understand that they have to do so to get the money to produce content, but thats also why I want them to lose. Get results and not drama first.
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age.
I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish.
While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small.
It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values.
There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
Defacer is right in a sense, though. If we had teams where the only goal was winning, every team except the best couple would collapse. If nobody ever went to Kansas City Royals games because they sucked, the team wouldn't exist anymore, and that isn't good for anyone. Increasing the number of possible good jobs for people in the scene cannot possibly be bad.
Yeah, The community can't wrap their heads around that winning does not effect viability. Even Idra's haters turn in because they want to see if he wins.
And let's not kid ourselves, people would be pumped if he did.
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age.
I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish.
While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small.
It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values.
There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
Defacer is right in a sense, though. If we had teams where the only goal was winning, every team except the best couple would collapse. If nobody ever went to Kansas City Royals games because they sucked, the team wouldn't exist anymore, and that isn't good for anyone. Increasing the number of possible good jobs for people in the scene cannot possibly be bad.
Yeah, The community can't wrap their heads around that winning does not effect viability. Even Idra's haters turn in because they want to see if he wins.
And let's not kid ourselves, people would be pumped if he did.
You are correct that the hater's tune into watch him lose(not see if he wins), but that's because tournaments serve him up to us. He isn't qualifying for anything straight up anymore. Every single instance of Idra for a very long time has been served up to people because the tournament themselves have invited him. I could live the rest of my life without seeing another Idra match and be absolutely fine with it and I'll continue to watch SC2 and root for my favorite players.
Tournaments should just stop tossing him invites and he'll disappear and become nothing more than a stream hero and only people who tune into his stream will care about him.
Idra will go down in gaming history as one of the highest paid gamers who input the least effort.
The reddit thread about him is making me smile so hard.
IdrA is fucking brilliant. He is the Jersey Shore of the SC2 community.
He is catering to the lowest common denominator and it is working splendidly. He could stream right now after what he just did and still get 5-10k viewers, ragequit 10 games, go watch TV, and be paid his salary, stream money, etc.
BW didn't need disgraces like IdrA to be successful in Korea. Even the very rare example of a "bm" player like Firebathero or iloveoov (not that anything they did was comparable to IdrA) was at least successful enough to make their controversial behavior acceptable. The Korean scene cares about success. That's why the matchfixing scandal basically destroyed professional BW, too many sponsors pulled out because the integrity of the game was challenged. Yet despite the fact that there's no more professional teams, OSL/MSL or Proleague, Brood War is still more popular to this day than SC2 is.
So I don't accept any arguments to justify EG's existence because the scene needs drama and personality. There are a handful of KePSA b-teamers that grind 10 hours a day for the faint hope that they'll be sent out in PL just to lose to Flash or JangBi, without salary or glory. That's how much integrity they have. And you know what? It was a perfectly financially viable e-sport in Korea until the matchfixing scandal. Meanwhile, IdrA gets to relax on wads of cash because lots of people *still* find it hilarious when he calls someone a cunt for beating him.
Let the AM and EU scenes die for all the fucks I give, if that's how it's going to be. Barcrafts and huge tournaments aren't worth it for a game that has no integrity.
On May 09 2013 14:06 LightSpectra wrote: BW didn't need disgraces like IdrA to be successful in Korea. Even the very rare example of a "bm" player like Firebathero or iloveoov (not that anything they did was comparable to IdrA) was at least successful enough to make their controversial behavior acceptable. The Korean scene cares about success. That's why the matchfixing scandal basically destroyed professional BW, too many sponsors pulled out because the integrity of the game was challenged. Yet despite the fact that there's no more professional teams, OSL/MSL or Proleague, Brood War is still more popular to this day than SC2 is.
So I don't accept any arguments to justify EG's existence because the scene needs drama and personality. There are a handful of KePSA b-teamers that grind 10 hours a day for the faint hope that they'll be sent out in PL just to lose to Flash or JangBi, without salary or glory. That's how much integrity they have. And you know what? It was a perfectly financially viable e-sport in Korea until the matchfixing scandal. Meanwhile, IdrA gets to relax on wads of cash because lots of people *still* find it hilarious when he calls someone a cunt for beating him.
Let the AM and EU scenes die for all the fucks I give, if that's how it's going to be. Barcrafts and huge tournaments aren't worth it for a game that has no integrity.
I value hardwork and sacrifice as much as anyone. But there is nothing honorable about grinding 10 hours a day without salary. Those are just kids, some as young as 16, being lured out of school, forced to play 80+ hours a week without compensation and are being exploited by their teams. They are probably ruining their futures by sacrificing their whole lives for the sake of 'integrity'.
Well Idra was one of those "handful of KePSA b-teamers that grind 10 hours a day for the faint hope that they'll be sent out in PL just to lose to Flash or JangBi" long time ago, but times have changed. SC2 scene is different now and allows entities like Idra to exist in current model (in western starcraft anyway). Don't hate the player, hate the game. If he lost his passion and just does this for the money good for him, don't feel entitled to see Idra win something or even try hard. There are plenty of other players who do that.
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age.
I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish.
While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small.
It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values.
There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
Defacer is right in a sense, though. If we had teams where the only goal was winning, every team except the best couple would collapse. If nobody ever went to Kansas City Royals games because they sucked, the team wouldn't exist anymore, and that isn't good for anyone. Increasing the number of possible good jobs for people in the scene cannot possibly be bad.
Yeah, The community can't wrap their heads around that winning does not effect viability. Even Idra's haters turn in because they want to see if he wins.
And let's not kid ourselves, people would be pumped if he did.
It's really, really sad how many posters (even, long-time posters, surprisingly!) don't understand that if winning is the only thing that truly mattered in SC2, all foreign teams would immediately kick every single player with almost no exceptions (maybe Naniwa, Stephano, Scarlett, and Thorzain or something), and then they'd use all their funds to pick up the few teamless Koreans and poach Koreans from existing teams.
It's good to focus on results in sports, but I don't hear NFL fans or NBA fans saying that 90% of the teams should disband because they didn't win the Superbowl or go far in March Madness. I just don't understand this particular kind of stupidity.
On May 08 2013 01:31 radscorpion9 wrote: I think you're definitely right in that charisma plays a big role. Whenever Idra plays you have as many as ten thousand people watching his stream (if I recall correctly), even if he isn't necessarily as successful these days as he used to be.
But I think we should ensure that it remains a secondary focus, not the primary one. Because if people are watching players like Idra or Destiny just because of their colorful personalities, then the business model of esports isn't about the game anymore and just becomes a bit of a joke, in that people will just watch for moments of rage or witty commentary, or because a person is generally funny. At that point it has nothing to do with esports, its just about watching funny people play a game (the game doesn't matter).
For example that's actually the primary reason I watch day9, particularly on fridays or mondays. Most of the time I find sc2 games lackluster and boring because they follow a very standardized pattern of gameplay, but his commentary is hilarious, and I love all of his personal stories.
I think it also extends to casters; lots of people love watching incontrol and think he's a funny guy, but we should try to keep in mind that your knowledge about the game comes first, comedy second. Otherwise its just bizarre in that you are watching a comedy routine in a totally wrong setting.
Edit: Also I'm not even sure if the people above me read your post. He's asking whether we need more charsimatic, WWE type personalities in the game in order to make esports more popular. Stop with the insults, just read the final two paragraphs. That basically summarizes it. This is absolutely not a "dick measuring contest" between EG fans and haters, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion!
Fair, but I'm pretty sure EG's a business and when a team is a business, its primary focus won't be to win and be the best. Sure it'll be one of their goals, but then if you're the best player in the world but no one knows about u, how is it gonna make u money?
It's better to have a lesser product with a wider audience than a better product with very few audience. EG already has a very wide following, now if they can 'better' their skills and actually become one of the top teams, then their popularity would skyrocket.
Example: Dendi from Navi (Dota 2) - Likes to joke around, trolls people, dances, dorky, but considered by many as the best player..
Let's be real. People watch people because of their personality. If you're a fuckin genius, but your personality sucks, who'd like u? No one..
Yeah Dendi is a great example of a player who is simply a goldmine in terms of popularity, great personality and great at the game, kind of similar to IdrA in 2010 or Stephano in 2011-2012. (and note how EG quickly snapped up both of those)
I wonder if EG tried to get PartinG, he seems (from interview translations) to be more interesting than 90% of foreigners and we know he's more skilled than any foreigner. Have him learn a bit of English and stream from time to time (like MC did) and you've got a similar "goldmine".
Boxer in his prime was the perfect combination of talent, personality (it even showed in his play) and handsome. Sigh. Soooooo handsome.
It's not like EG brought on players like IdrA and Stephano only because they had personality. At the time they were contracted they were all considered great players with tremendous potential.
Yes, even InControl was considered one of the best NA Broodwar players when he joined SC2 during the beta. Being 'a personality' was not the path EG originally mapped out for him.
The insinuation that EG isn't trying to win in addition to make money is silly. Winning a GSL is fucking hard. LOL.
Is it that they're not trying? Or that it doesn't matter 100% in being a successful team? Like, I'm sure they are trying, but the reality is that they dont need to win everything in order to be sustainable, right?
Is there a NBA, NFL, MLB or NHL team that is going to close down because they haven't won enough titles? The Cubs have not won the World Series in 100 FUCKING YEARS!!!!!! ONE HUNDRED YEARS! There is only one person alive(wiki it if you care) that remembers them winning. ONE PERSON IN THE WHOLE WORLD. We fought two world wars, dealt with the civil rights, learned how to fly and WENT TO THE MOON in the time since their last title win.
So no team will ever go out of business because they do not win. It does not factor into if they a viable team. Winning does not make a team successful as a business. It never has. It never will. All that matters is that you have fans and players who want to play.
Just to play devil's advocate, teams that don't win ever don't tend to retain fans. Using an example like the cubs, they don't win, but there is the possibility they can win. If a team clearly will never win 100% guaranteed they are far less viable. Especially when you bring into consideration we are probably years and years and years away from things like revenue sharing that help to keep less viable teams viable.
Actually, if you follow baseball closely at all, you know that the cubs have been a huge laughingstock for the better part of the last two decades. The last few seasons you knew they would finish bottom in their division and you know they'll finish last this year. Yet, despite all that, they're still the most profitable team in all of professional baseball.
Pro teams in the major sports have a vastly different position than e-sports. Teams make more money off ONE game than a major LAN such as MLG makes every few months. They've already established their viewing base and foundational income. They can afford to try to pay money solely for talent because that's the key to making them even more profitable on top of the media sponserships and ticket sales. Those teams can focus purely on improving performance in an attempt to make even more money rather than in an attempt to stay economically viable.
Actually, if you follow baseball closely you'd know all cubs fans always think this year is the year. Additionally they won their division back to back in 2007 and 2008 so you are pretty much just making stuff up right there. If you are going to use an example back it up with facts that are real or don't bother please.
On the second point...of course, other pro sports are more established as they've been around since at least the early 1900's in some cases. Esports was in it's infancy in the arcade scene, then the whole pc scene didn't really start getting big until the 90's. This is like early 1900's 1930's football right now were everyone doesn't make hardly anything playing except an elite few and it's all done for the passion of the game.
Point however was no team even in pro sports gets to just absolutely suck without revenue share or something and make money. Tons of pro teams have gone bankrupt over the years in sports where revenue sharing does not exist. If for instance a team like EG actually didn't have any results for a few years they'd start to get into financial trouble guaranteed. At least they would if they didn't start to majorly restructure existing players contracts and reduce them as the value of the players fall as they become more and more irrelevant.
On May 08 2013 09:04 MoonfireSpam wrote: It is kinda funny it works. Buy hey, people are dumb fucks for the most part :> EG needs to get that bitcoin code from ESEA, they could probably get people to run it willingly.
EG: "Drink Monster and buy our shit you dumb fucks" EG fans: "Sure, just cos you so badass <3." EG: "Hell while you're at it, mine bitcoins for us pls, here's a short promo video and an EG wallpaper / screensaver" EG fans: "YAY stuff"
Is it sad that I am OK with all this?
Nope, I think we should all e-mail Alex and suggest it :> I think we should also suggest streaming Idra shitting in fans mouths, just for a social experiment. Haha actually I guess he kinda does anyway. Still should do it literally though. Could make more $$$.
On May 09 2013 14:06 LightSpectra wrote: So I don't accept any arguments to justify EG's existence because the scene needs drama and personality. There are a handful of KePSA b-teamers that grind 10 hours a day for the faint hope that they'll be sent out in PL just to lose to Flash or JangBi, without salary or glory. That's how much integrity they have.
This post is emblematic of a common attitude here on TL that I find very problematic, the idea that if you're not top 8 GSL or grinding you ass off and having a completely one-dimensional, unhealthily starcraft-focused life, you don't have "integrity" and you don't have any "skill". I wouldn't call playing 10 hours a day for months with little to no pay just to be crushed by an established pro once or twice and then fading into obscurity something more admirable than a pro foreigner who puts in 6 hours a day and has decent performances at tournies and builds a fanbase.
There's a place for the player who practices 40 hours a week and regularly has decent but never great showings at tournaments. Most of the people who make a living playing sports fit this model. For every Peyton Manning, there's a dozen decent QBs who do their jobs and provide competent, entertaining games even if they will never play in the post season. Most Starcraft players will not be champions, that's okay. Anybody who can even qualify for a major tournament, hell, even come close to qualifying, has skill in my book and hopefully one day they will all be able to make enough money to live off it (and the best of the best become rich). That's the way every established sport works already.
Edit: Just to clarify, I have no problem with people putting lots of time into SC2 with no money out of passion, there is something admirable to that as long as they aren't being exploited (which I bet many in Korea are), but I don't like the way it was framed by LightSpectra, that you don't have any integrity or worth or care about the game if you don't do that.
This post isn't really aimed at anyone in particular, but I'm tired of hearing the incredible standards people put on EG players in regard to the rest of the SC2 scene. It's unreal. So many of EG players were at the top, even competing with Koreans at some point in their SC2 career. Sure, they never reached legendary status, but which foreigner has?
The fact is, this is one tough game. One incredibly competitive game. It is very rare to see a player play consistently in peak form for a long time. Slumps are commonplace and sometimes turn permanent. Not very long ago, guys like MVP, Nestea, MMA, and MC were dominating the scene. How about today? Some are just just shells of their former selves. Even the top Koreans have trouble maintaining results, yet where is the criticism there? Compared to other foreign players, EG players are doing very well. They may not be taking 1st in every tournament, but they are still taking top finishes and haven't disappeared from the scene. Guys who have been dominating for a long time (Stephano) are still relevant and competitive. Don't see the harsh criticism for not producing results justified at all.
SC2 is a game. It's not freaking life or death. The majority of people buy and watch the game for entertainment. The whole environment should be competitive AND entertaining. People should be having fun. People respect greatness, but at the same time, many like to watch college basketball too because it can be just as entertaining, even without a prime michael jordan or lebron james playing. Some people would even argue that is it more fun to watch. What a lot of people don't understand is competition is not absolute, but relative. In the days when SC2 was still in infancy, people still loved to watch other people play against each other, even if the players had no clue what the most optimal strategies were or knew what the hell they were doing. So lighten up, enjoy the game for what it is, and swallow the hate.
And for real, unless YOU actually played at the same level that these players played at one point, judging them and saying they have no integrity is completely asinine.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
User was temp banned for this post.
Hahah you are a boss bro.
Really? Why reinforce this behavior? He just spit in your face as a fan and you took it and said, "you're a boss bro".
On May 09 2013 16:02 phiRa wrote: This post isn't really aimed at anyone in particular, but I'm tired of hearing the incredible standards people put on EG players in regard to the rest of the SC2 scene. It's unreal. So many of EG players were at the top, even competing with Koreans at some point in their SC2 career. Sure, they never reached legendary status, but which foreigner has?
The fact is, this is one tough game. One incredibly competitive game. It is very rare to see a player play consistently in peak form for a long time. Slumps are commonplace and sometimes turn permanent. Not very long ago, guys like MVP, Nestea, MMA, and MC were dominating the scene. How about today? Some are just just shells of their former selves. Even the top Koreans have trouble maintaining results, yet where is the criticism there? Compared to other foreign players, EG players are doing very well. They may not be taking 1st in every tournament, but they are still taking top finishes and haven't disappeared from the scene. Guys who have been dominating for a long time (Stephano) are still relevant and competitive. Don't see the harsh criticism for not producing results justified at all.
SC2 is a game. It's not freaking life or death. The majority of people buy and watch the game for entertainment. The whole environment should be competitive AND entertaining. People should be having fun. People respect greatness, but at the same time, many like to watch college basketball too because it can be just as entertaining, even without a prime michael jordan or lebron james playing. Some people would even argue that is it more fun to watch. What a lot of people don't understand is competition is not absolute, but relative. In the days when SC2 was still in infancy, people still loved to watch other people play against each other, even if the players had no clue what the most optimal strategies were or knew what the hell they were doing. So lighten up, enjoy the game for what it is, and swallow the hate.
And for real, unless YOU actually played at the same level that these players played at one point, judging them and saying they have no integrity is completely asinine.
The thing is EG players like Idra or Stephano are on a salary. NCAA players aren't. So if they're not producing results, they need to be criticized. Where's their hunger? Have they lost it because they're sitting comfortably on their money? NCAA becomes exciting when there's a cinderella story, which is why Naniwa and his road to Dreamhack was amazing, or Demuslims run in the WCS. I don't see anything like that with idra, at least not for a long time.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
User was temp banned for this post.
Hahah you are a boss bro.
This is the 'personality' that's needed in esports? How do you EG drones defend this?
EG just shows what US eSport was all about in the last 10 years. Nothing relevant in the tournament world out there. You get sometimes a rare shooting star and thats it again. For the rest of the time its EU vs Asia.
I dont hate them or dislike them. For me it was just a matter of time till US Teams just get irrelevant again. This time they put in more effort but well, hope they dont fall again in this casual trap that proofed to be no success - called Console Games eSport.
On May 09 2013 16:02 phiRa wrote: This post isn't really aimed at anyone in particular, but I'm tired of hearing the incredible standards people put on EG players in regard to the rest of the SC2 scene. It's unreal. So many of EG players were at the top, even competing with Koreans at some point in their SC2 career. Sure, they never reached legendary status, but which foreigner has?
The fact is, this is one tough game. One incredibly competitive game. It is very rare to see a player play consistently in peak form for a long time. Slumps are commonplace and sometimes turn permanent. Not very long ago, guys like MVP, Nestea, MMA, and MC were dominating the scene. How about today? Some are just just shells of their former selves. Even the top Koreans have trouble maintaining results, yet where is the criticism there? Compared to other foreign players, EG players are doing very well. They may not be taking 1st in every tournament, but they are still taking top finishes and haven't disappeared from the scene. Guys who have been dominating for a long time (Stephano) are still relevant and competitive. Don't see the harsh criticism for not producing results justified at all.
SC2 is a game. It's not freaking life or death. The majority of people buy and watch the game for entertainment. The whole environment should be competitive AND entertaining. People should be having fun. People respect greatness, but at the same time, many like to watch college basketball too because it can be just as entertaining, even without a prime michael jordan or lebron james playing. Some people would even argue that is it more fun to watch. What a lot of people don't understand is competition is not absolute, but relative. In the days when SC2 was still in infancy, people still loved to watch other people play against each other, even if the players had no clue what the most optimal strategies were or knew what the hell they were doing. So lighten up, enjoy the game for what it is, and swallow the hate.
And for real, unless YOU actually played at the same level that these players played at one point, judging them and saying they have no integrity is completely asinine.
I somewhat agree with this post, you're right, it's just a game and some people really shouldn't care as much as they do. However, thats part of being a fan of the game. The term fan is short for fanatic because that's what we become when we put our passion into something really really enjoy watching. Your'e also right that as some random ass diamond player on NA I don't have a right to judge his skill as a sc2 player, however, I CAN tell you that Idra acts like a giant child sometimes. Yeah, I will never be able to play sc2 at a competitive level but I've seen enough people act like children and whine and complain enough in my life to know that this dude does just that. I think for me that's where the dislike of his character comes in personally. Some people enjoy his antics I don't. Mostly I just root for him to lose because that's how I react to people that act like babies in real life too.
Sports team's are essentially businesses. Same goes for e-sports, if IdrA or whatever can earn thousands chilling and bm'ing a month all the power to him, at least he can gather the masses for his teams sponsor exposure. Players without a personality will quickly be forgotten even if they get tournament wins. Why would I care how much he or for that matter anyone else earns from that just some jelly ppl , haters might. And all the haters and everything just make him more interesting.
If people get hooked to stupid adverts on streams without doing research first that's their problems blindly following them...
While personality wise I wouldn't compare him to but i'll draw parallels with basketball player Yao Ming he had his moments at top but he is no were near best at the moment and yet he's probably more known and would attract more people if at some matches than other top players.
In SC1 Idra was fiercely competitive, he would rage at losses, but that's because he really thought he was the better player and expected a lot from himself. It's a big disparity to see the difference between then and now.
I feel like this is the Destiny argument all over again, which is highly amusing considering the disdain certain EG members had for him when he left SC2. You can make money off stream viewers and doing your best to be entertaining, until you can't and someone else takes your place. Eventually, results matter and with nearly every other pro competing for viewers, you can't expect to hold onto an audience forever.
You can see this in EG themselves, where teammates are cannibalizing each others' views. Idra used to be the biggest Starcraft 2 stream by a very significant margin, but he's fallen off dramatically as Demuslim started to become the face of the organization with his recent success. That's not even going into the rest of the "streamer' portion of the team, who haven't been doing nearly as well as they used to. If you can't win or at least maintain the aura of being a top player, you're going to have a much harder time competing against everyone else's streams and legitimizing coaching for additional income support.
Idra is starting to have this problem now and his unique personality is likely accelerating his downward spiral. When he's winning, everyone loves the bad boy of Starcraft, but when he's not, he comes off as petty and extremely arrogant with his comfortable position at EG. It would be one thing if he was who he was while constantly doing his best to improve, but who can honestly say that he's shown that he's doing that right now? He seems content with where he is, despite not being a top foreigner in over a year. Being unable to take WCS USA last year really took the luster off him and I wouldn't be surprised if comments like this damages his reputation to the point where even the most hardline Idra supporters begin to leave him for greener pastures.
Not an idra fan, but he is correct with that unnecessary statement about the fans. They don't care about skill, they care about pandering and identifying with them, hence why koreans don't get the stream views. However, his actions in WCS last night were really unprofessional and much deserving of discipline from his team. Say what you want about the Koreans taking over WCS NA...but honestly could you EVER imagine a Korean doing that? They are so far ahead in professionalism and foreigners need to take note. Idra basically pulled a Naniwa probe rush in that game, and it was completely disrespectful to the fans, to MLG, to Blizzard, to his team. The LEAST he could have done in that situation was the take his army around the other way and go for the natural main position on the terran side of the map, and if he loses his army, THEN GG. You don't leave maxxed. I get the feeling that he has no motivation whatsoever to win, to progress professionally anymore. EG should not accept this when they are investing in people like Coach Park who are working as hard as possible to pull off a miracle in Proleague and turn that team around (not that successfully but at least they are giving it their all). Stream views or not, that is not a good face to have for an organization anymore...and they don't need him. There are a lot of people representing north american starcraft better now, and they actually have the motivation to improve. I bet there are at least 50% of the players in the top 50 GM who if they had the chance to be on EG and go train in Korea would jump at the opportunity. For Idra, it is merely a bother and disruption to his daily routine of sitting on his ass all day and streaming a few hours.
TLDR: I think Idra's comment about the fans is basically true, not the best way to put it though i guess haha. However his performance last night was completely unacceptable and unprofessional. I hope EG will hold their players to a better standard than what we saw last night.
Players like Demuslim, Grubby, etc.. can get the skill and the personality that make us cheer for them. I don't play Protoss, don't like any Protoss player, but everytime i'm watching Grubby in a tournament i fucking cheer for him. Why? Because i can see the effort he puts in his practice and his professional posture is a good example for other guys, Demuslim is the same, other players are the same. Because they are _professionals_, if we want eSports grow, we need to filter true professionals and kids who are playing games. I was watching WCS NA and i called some friends to watch with me, they brought their gfs and was very happy of engaging my friends on eSports. When Idra rage quited first game, my friend said:
- Wtf? It's a fucking kid or what? The game was very cool, why did he leave?! Please explain the game to me because i was thinking the game was even, i don't understand.
Yeah, sux right? It's eSports? No. Who is a bunch of fucks and a piece of shit? The angry kid who think he is a professional.
On May 09 2013 18:16 -Archangel- wrote: After what Idra pulled lately I am not sure how good he is for EG anymore.
Lately? I'm not seeing anything worse than what's he's been doing ever since the first beta for sc2 (didn't really follow him beforehand).
Then you don't really follow him at all... I'm not much of a fan, but if you can't see any differences then you're pretty blind
Do you remember how was acting during the beta and the gazillion of other things he's done since then? Or have people got selective memory on a collective scale or something? There may be differences but how exactly is it worse? Fine if it's something I've missed, I try to avoid most of the drama that's happening, I'm rather blind than have my brain melt with too much stupidity.
I'm checking right now and I don't see anything that would make my statement invalid.
On May 09 2013 18:16 -Archangel- wrote: After what Idra pulled lately I am not sure how good he is for EG anymore.
Lately? I'm not seeing anything worse than what's he's been doing ever since the first beta for sc2 (didn't really follow him beforehand).
Then you don't really follow him at all... I'm not much of a fan, but if you can't see any differences then you're pretty blind
There is clearly something going on with Idra that goes beyond SC2 and is a more general problem. I am normally a fan, but I can’t really defend some of his more recent stuff. I am not freaking out or anything, it mostly just bums me out. But this stuff isn’t any worse that what he has done in the past, per say. I mean, there was the amazing “I got banned from TL, Message Chill if that makes you angry” twitter moment. That was beyond amusing.
In the end, I will continue to watch Idra and hope he gets a grip on the mental stuff that his holding him back. I’m a Redsox fan, so I am used to be disappointed.
On May 09 2013 16:02 phiRa wrote: This post isn't really aimed at anyone in particular, but I'm tired of hearing the incredible standards people put on EG players in regard to the rest of the SC2 scene. It's unreal. So many of EG players were at the top, even competing with Koreans at some point in their SC2 career. Sure, they never reached legendary status, but which foreigner has?
The fact is, this is one tough game. One incredibly competitive game. It is very rare to see a player play consistently in peak form for a long time. Slumps are commonplace and sometimes turn permanent. Not very long ago, guys like MVP, Nestea, MMA, and MC were dominating the scene. How about today? Some are just just shells of their former selves. Even the top Koreans have trouble maintaining results, yet where is the criticism there? Compared to other foreign players, EG players are doing very well. They may not be taking 1st in every tournament, but they are still taking top finishes and haven't disappeared from the scene. Guys who have been dominating for a long time (Stephano) are still relevant and competitive. Don't see the harsh criticism for not producing results justified at all.
SC2 is a game. It's not freaking life or death. The majority of people buy and watch the game for entertainment. The whole environment should be competitive AND entertaining. People should be having fun. People respect greatness, but at the same time, many like to watch college basketball too because it can be just as entertaining, even without a prime michael jordan or lebron james playing. Some people would even argue that is it more fun to watch. What a lot of people don't understand is competition is not absolute, but relative. In the days when SC2 was still in infancy, people still loved to watch other people play against each other, even if the players had no clue what the most optimal strategies were or knew what the hell they were doing. So lighten up, enjoy the game for what it is, and swallow the hate.
And for real, unless YOU actually played at the same level that these players played at one point, judging them and saying they have no integrity is completely asinine.
I somewhat agree with this post, you're right, it's just a game and some people really shouldn't care as much as they do. However, thats part of being a fan of the game. The term fan is short for fanatic because that's what we become when we put our passion into something really really enjoy watching. Your'e also right that as some random ass diamond player on NA I don't have a right to judge his skill as a sc2 player, however, I CAN tell you that Idra acts like a giant child sometimes. Yeah, I will never be able to play sc2 at a competitive level but I've seen enough people act like children and whine and complain enough in my life to know that this dude does just that. I think for me that's where the dislike of his character comes in personally. Some people enjoy his antics I don't. Mostly I just root for him to lose because that's how I react to people that act like babies in real life too.
When a team tries to hang on the coat tails of previous accomplishments when most of those accomplishments were a result of wins the players/teams made when they were with their other team? I still find it funny whenever they try to compare themselves to the New York Yankees and boast. It's a laughing joke. Let me know when they actually make a player for themselves. If you're going to boast and post content (sometimes I think they pay people to make threads like this) because no one in their right mind would say the OP's second sentence. They have a thing called blue and white disease when it comes to ML fans. I wonder if we should have EG fan boys checked out for B&W disease too.
On May 09 2013 23:50 megid wrote: Because they are _professionals_, if we want eSports grow, we need to filter true professionals and kids who are playing games
The better way to put it is separating the people who actually want to show results and those who only are in it for entertainment value.
The later is an easy quick buck because people are attracted to car wrecks, the problem is as a long term business model by itself it won't succeed. Because eventually people get desensitized to it and move on.
Results + Entertainment are obviously the best of both worlds, but if you could only pick one you pick Results because it has a long term focus and future. Kespa basically proved this business model for the last decade.
On May 09 2013 23:50 megid wrote: Because they are _professionals_, if we want eSports grow, we need to filter true professionals and kids who are playing games
The better way to put it is separating the people who actually want to show results and those who only are in it for entertainment value.
The later is an easy quick buck because people are attracted to car wrecks, the problem is as a long term business model by itself it won't succeed. Because eventually people get desensitized to it and move on.
Results + Entertainment are obviously the best of both worlds, but if you could only pick one you pick Results because it has a long term focus and future. Kespa basically proved this business model for the last decade.
I'd argue that SC2 has a devoted, but limited audience, and needs to improve it's entertainment value to reach a broader audience. T
There's just not enough money in the industry for players right now. The more viewers there are, the more money there is, the more players there are, and level of competition overall rises.
Whatever get's eyeballs on SC2 is good right now, IMO (even if that includes a train wreck here and there).
On May 09 2013 23:50 megid wrote: Because they are _professionals_, if we want eSports grow, we need to filter true professionals and kids who are playing games
The better way to put it is separating the people who actually want to show results and those who only are in it for entertainment value.
The later is an easy quick buck because people are attracted to car wrecks, the problem is as a long term business model by itself it won't succeed. Because eventually people get desensitized to it and move on.
Results + Entertainment are obviously the best of both worlds, but if you could only pick one you pick Results because it has a long term focus and future. Kespa basically proved this business model for the last decade.
I'd argue that SC2 has a devoted, but limited audience, and needs to improve it's entertainment value to reach a broader audience. T
There's just not enough money in the industry for players right now. The more viewers there are, the more money there is, the more players there are, and level of competition overall rises.
Whatever get's eyeballs on SC2 is good right now, IMO (even if that includes a train wreck here and there).
^^^This
Kespa is a great model, but is there room for a foreign Kespea to exist and survive given the size of the audience? I would say no.
I don't just want top 16 GSL to make good money, as I said earlier I want anybody good enough to even qualify for a WCS challenger league, or even have a reasonable shot at qualifying (who are still better than 99.9% of SC2 players) to be able to make a decent, middle-class income. A "middling" pro golfer still makes a good income, I want SC2 to be the same.
We need to expand the audience in the west. You don't do that by locking yourself in a dark room 12 hours a day and starving because you can't pay the bills and letting your health decline so you can upset Flash, that doesn't attract a new audience member.
It seems like in the recent turn of events, EG just pretty much proved me theory of them wrong. It could give the more exposure than ever though. Jeeez, wow.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
On May 10 2013 04:27 biology]major wrote: EG and idra viewership continue to increase. Idra just proves his point that marketing and personality >>> skill in sc2 community.
edit: there is literally nothing wrong with this, to each his own
If everyone was a personality but had no skill, this scene would die. Or at the very least turn into a reality TV show, but it would not at all be a sport, nor would I consider any of the players as professionals, I'd consider them actors.
I for one and going to miss Idra's frankness. I couldn't care less what he thought of us, honestly I think he's kind of right. The vast majority of viewers on Idra's stream (10k!) seem to just enjoy the drama, not the gameplay. Not sure how it is with tournaments, but I think most people love watching "their" player, or the foreigner, but don't care for much else.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
User was temp banned for this post.
You sir just got served a double serving of community justice. Thank you Eg!