Interview of David Kim about Balance in IEM - Page 7
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Elwar
953 Posts
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
On July 26 2013 15:45 xyzz wrote: That's just being a David Kim apologist. How would you be able to identify that Innovation is a better Starcraft 2 player than Rain or Parting? You'd have to be able to spot something in the non race-specific RTS skills that Rain and Parting and MC do much worse considering their results are so much worse. You'd then have to be able to be absolutely sure that the difference comes from exactly those non-race specific FLAWS that the players supposedly have, instead of actually the fact that Innovation is a wonderful player who ALSO happens to play Terran which is very strong in capable hands. David Kim is just talking out of his ass. Exactly. Noone can come here and say this guy isn't just as good or better RTS player than everyone in the world. His control, decision making, multi-tasking, speed, imagination, etc are out of this world. His weakness is that his race is limiting his capabilities, while a stronger race wouldn't. Well, if for every single level from bronze to top GM (which is already pro level by the way), the game is balanced, you can reasonably suppose that, if there is a lack of balance at the top pro level, it's because of the players, not the game. | ||
SniXSniPe
United States1938 Posts
On July 26 2013 15:54 Vindicare605 wrote: I like Rain, I think he's one of the best Protoss players in the world but I really think he's overrated and that is hard for me to say because I do know how good he is, but he isn't on the level of Innovation. I'm sorry but he just isn't. Here's a good example of the kind of Elite status I'm talking about with Innovation. You EXPECT him to win, and he dominates, his series vs Soulkey in the OSL RO8 was a textbook example of domination over an opponent and Soulkey played some of the best ZvT (in game one at least) I've ever seen except from perhaps Startale Life at his peak. Rain? Went 3-2 in a tough crazy series with Supernova who isn't even usually considered when we talk about world's top Terran players (perhaps we should?) That kind of thing you just don't see from Innovation and Soulkey, when they get paired against anyone that isn't each other the outcome is predictably one sided affairs. You can't just decide to put Rain on their level of excellence just for parity's sake, just so we can point to 3 individual players and say "oh yea those are the best at their respective races at the moment, they're the new Bisu/Flash/Jaedong" the reality just isn't consistent with that. Rain is good, but he doesn't have that Elite untouchable status right now the way Innovation does, or the way Life used to. Perhaps during his first OSL win when he dominated WCS Asia and looked unbeatable in PvT (even then MVP found a way to beat him.) he had it, and maybe he'll get back there, but he isn't there right now and hasn't been for all of HoTS. Again this is all my opinion, but that's how I interpreted what David Kim said. It isn't so much that Protoss players aren't good, but when you look at the players winning championships, and compare those guys amongst each other, it's the top Terrans and Zergs that stand out as consistently dominant. We haven't had a Protoss in that company since MC. Season 1 - Roro WCS Season 1 - Soulkey WCS Season Finals - Innovation WCS Season 2 - Innovation, Maru, Bomber, Rain IEM WCS - YoDa 2013 MLG Winter Championships - Life DH Open Stockhelm - Leenock DH Open Summer - StarDust HSC VII - Taeja 2013 MLG Spring Championships - Polt DH Open Valencia - HyuN Lets look at top 4: Season 1 - WCS Season 1 - 1 Terran, 1 Protoss, 2 Zergs WCS Season Finals - 2 Terrans, 1 Protoss, 1 Zergs WCS Season 2 - 3 Terran, 1 Protoss IEM WCS - 2 Terran, 2 Protoss MLG Winter Championships - 2 Terrans, 1 Protoss, 1 Zergs DH Open Stockhelm - 2 Protoss, 2 Zergs DH Open Summer - 2 Terran, 1 Protoss, 1 Zerg HSC VII - 1 Terran, 3 Zergs MLG Spring Championships - 1 Terran, 2 Protoss, 1 Zerg DH Open Valencia - 1 Protoss, 3 Zergs 14 Terrans, 12 Protoss, 14 Zergs So despite not having a lot of individual crowns, there is still a good representation of Protoss players in the later stages of most tournaments OVERALL. | ||
neoghaleon55
United States7434 Posts
I can't wait :D | ||
larse
1611 Posts
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VieuxSinge
France231 Posts
This interview's question were quite bad (pace of the game?? Zerg is weak?). An interview shouldn't be all about nerf and buff and crying... | ||
Vindicare605
United States15718 Posts
On July 26 2013 16:03 SniXSniPe wrote: Wait, what Terrans and Zergs have been "consistently dominant" Or at least, define what you mean... Are you referring to individual champions? Because so far in GSL there hasn't been a back-to-back champion in 2013. People are going to have their own definitions for what it takes to be a "dominant player" but here's a few examples. MVP in 2011, DRG in early to mid 2012, the Summer of Taeja, Nestea's back to back titles, Stephano in 2012 in the foreigner scene etc. How many times can you think of a period of time where any one Protoss player has emerged as the "current best in the world." There are only three that come to mind for me (and I watch a LOT of Starcraft.) MC in early 2011, Seed for like one GSL/GSTL season and maybe a month after that, and Rain during the period of time where he won OSL and WCS Asia. If you fast forward to present. There aren't any Protoss players that are currently dominating the scene the way Innovation is now. The previous best in the world before Innovation assumed that mantle was Life, a Zerg. That's the kind of dominant I'm talking about. Players that are so good, we as a community accept them as the current best in the world. | ||
xyzz
567 Posts
Well, if for every single level from bronze to top GM (which is already pro level by the way), the game is balanced, you can reasonably suppose that, if there is a lack of balance at the top pro level, it's because of the players, not the game. And posts like this show how little the average joes of the world know about game design. I could write an essay to this subject but since I've stayed up all night watching IEM I'll just tell you that the reason there is a lack of balance at the top pro level isn't because of the players, it's because the skill cap & skill requirement for each race is different. It's the most common problem in any game where people fight against eachother with different types of toons/characters/races/factions. They might all have the required functions that the standard players will end up playing fairly even games against eachother, but some simply do not allow for you go that extra mile and put all your skill into effect in order to win. I probably don't need to explain to you how different Protoss armies are from for example Terran armies and how much it affects what you can do with multitasking/harass and how hard it is to recover from a setback. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15718 Posts
On July 26 2013 16:03 SniXSniPe wrote: Season 1 - Roro WCS Season 1 - Soulkey WCS Season Finals - Innovation WCS Season 2 - Innovation, Maru, Bomber, Rain IEM WCS - YoDa 2013 MLG Winter Championships - Life DH Open Stockhelm - Leenock DH Open Summer - StarDust HSC VII - Taeja 2013 MLG Spring Championships - Polt DH Open Valencia - HyuN Lets look at top 4: Season 1 - WCS Season 1 - 1 Terran, 1 Protoss, 2 Zergs WCS Season Finals - 2 Terrans, 1 Protoss, 1 Zergs WCS Season 2 - 3 Terran, 1 Protoss IEM WCS - 2 Terran, 2 Protoss MLG Winter Championships - 2 Terrans, 1 Protoss, 1 Zergs DH Open Stockhelm - 2 Protoss, 2 Zergs DH Open Summer - 2 Terran, 1 Protoss, 1 Zerg HSC VII - 1 Terran, 3 Zergs MLG Spring Championships - 1 Terran, 2 Protoss, 1 Zerg DH Open Valencia - 1 Protoss, 3 Zergs 14 Terrans, 12 Protoss, 14 Zergs So despite not having a lot of individual crowns, there is still a good representation of Protoss players in the later stages of most tournaments OVERALL. Your bringing up of top finishes goes back to my first point, if you read the post I typed before the one you quoted. I'm agreeing with David Kim's assertion that the pro scene looks relatively well balanced. Protoss has had good showings in the Ro4-8 of pretty much every HOTS tournament thus far as your tournament listing states. What there's been a general lack of is actual champions and that is where I think David Kim's comment about "protoss playing better" is coming from. There's a jump up between the kinds of players in the current game that are winning championships and the kind of players simply placing in the top 16. There are players of Zerg and Terran that are consistently top placing or are considered favored champions in most of the tournaments they play in but the same can't be said of Protoss players for the most part. This is where I am interpreting the comment to mean, we have a lot of good Protoss players but what we don't have are a lot of ELITE Protoss players, elite players that are favored to win titles. By and large for a while now most of those players that have achieved that kind of elite status have been Terrans and Zergs, when we HAVE had a Protoss champion (Stardust) it was a complete surprise because no one expected him to win. | ||
xyzz
567 Posts
This is where I am interpreting the comment to mean, we have a lot of good Protoss players but what we don't have are a lot of ELITE Protoss players, elite players that are favored to win titles. I'm sorry but that's just a perception you have because Protoss haven't won tournaments. You feel Zerg and Terran have the best players because they have won tournaments, not because you're looking at the non-race specific RTS skills of the players. Don't fool yourself and think that if Innovation and Soulkey played Protoss they would be known as dominating and feared players who are expected to win every tournament. | ||
Waxangel
United States32498 Posts
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
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Ctesias
4595 Posts
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Cele
Germany4012 Posts
Blizzard wants a game, that is fun to watch for casuals, not fun to play at the top level. | ||
KOtical
Germany451 Posts
On July 26 2013 13:47 Kim Hyuna wrote: Please explain. Is it because you always got blink stalkers all in? Cos i always do that on ladder if they failed to scout. If scouted, it's very easy to defend. Buff is just an word. It could be reduce resource, etc. Not damage output in any sense. so u could buf the stalkers in more than 1 way, for example u could give some more damage, more speed or even some kind of upgrade (like blink). in any case a simple 4 gate push would kill terrans, because stalkers already faster than marines and stalkers are much better than marines in same numbers, even without micro. so the only way for terran players to stop 4 gate or 3 gate early pushes would be at least 2-3 bunkers in the front. | ||
Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
Was fun to see a balance whine shut-down by actual data and tournament statistic thou. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15718 Posts
On July 26 2013 16:29 xyzz wrote: I'm sorry but that's just a perception you have because Protoss haven't won tournaments. You feel Zerg and Terran have the best players because they have won tournaments, not because you're looking at the non-race specific RTS skills of the players. Don't fool yourself and think that if Innovation and Soulkey played Protoss they would be known as dominating and feared players who are expected to win every tournament. It isn't just that they are or aren't winning tournaments. It's how they're playing before they get there. Rain hasn't looked dominant at all in HoTS. He's been putting up decent results but he just hasn't looked dominant the way Innovation does or the way Life used to. In WCS Korea season 1, he lost in his group to Innovation and Gumiho. Granted he DID take one of the series off of Innovation, but then he turns right around and loses to Gumiho. Innovation meanwhile, went to the finals of that tournament and then won the global finals. Soulkey similarly won WCS Korea and then made Ro4 at the tournament after that before being beat by sOs (who btw got 4-0'd by Innovation) Even the BEST Protoss players just aren't consistently good. This pattern has stuck for a long time now. Rain is widely considered the best or one of the best but even he hasn't been anywhere near as good as Innovation or Soulkey have lately. In fact if we look at overall WCS Results, sOs has actually had superior results to Ran in season 1 altogether but he's been a complete non-factor in Season 2. This is what I'm talking about. The best Terrans and the best Zergs stay relevant in every tournament they play in, if they don't win they place highly. We don't have that consistent pattern from Protoss players in HoTS and the only time we REALLY had it in WoL was when MC was dominating. | ||
MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
I agree with David Kim's answers though, as silly as those questions were. | ||
saddaromma
1129 Posts
On July 26 2013 15:40 Vindicare605 wrote: The pro scene is pretty balanced also at the moment. Aside from a lack of Protoss "champions" they've had very reasonable representation in HoTS pretty much across the board, foreign tournaments and Korean. (If you want an example of "not reasonable" look at foreign Terran winrates in WoL.) You can easily blame there not being a Protoss champion on the simple fact that they don't have anyone has good as Innovation or Soulkey, I think that's where David Kim's "Protoss players need to get better" comment comes from, I don't think it's a stab at the players that play the race so much as it's an acknowledgement that there isn't a true ELITE Protoss player the way there's elite Zergs and Terrans like Innovation and Soulkey who are recognized as just being heads and shoulders above their peers. You guys are too carried away with balance-mania. I'm not talking about balance, the game itslef has many flaws. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15718 Posts
On July 26 2013 16:44 saddaromma wrote: You guys are too carried away with balance-mania. I'm not talking about balance, the game itslef has many flaws. Then write a more detailed post talking about your problems with the game. When you post a simple post like the one you just posted I'm assuming you're just jumping in with the rest of the people in this thread arguing that David Kim's comments about balance are somehow wrong, even though the stats say they aren't. I'm not totally happy with Starcraft 2's current design either, I think a lot of improvements can be made, but you're being completely unrealistic to expect any kind of major overhaul before LOTV. | ||
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