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If you want to look at a competent developer, you should look at Valve and not blizzard. Blizzard stated they've built SC2 from the ground up as an esports title and in my opinion is vastly far behind compared to other entities in the genre. Examples being Riot with them paying teams a salary for their LCS, Valve implementing a spectator mode in DOTA2 that allows you to watch tournament games in-cilent, ways to directly support individual teams with pennants, supporting a prize pool and many other features with the compendium, and even an old outdated feature called LAN - short for Local Area Network which allows you to play the game offline and not have to worry about internet outages in major tournaments.
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not to worry so much about sc2. it´s a shame for the three races, the bw history, but community won´t refloat this game blizzard have to care about their shit, if they don´t or they don´t know how, people will leave sc2 and start looking for a better game maybe sc2 did a ton of dollars more than bw, but bw was a much better game and that is what matters
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Why can't we choose what match-up to play? I mean you could just throw it onto unranked. Then again, I don't know what was wrong with ZvP FS D-D+
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On August 10 2013 07:48 {ToT}ColmA wrote: the only important question for blizzard right now is probably why a casual player like me who is losing 30 games in a row gets 2000p master league players and then plays gm players, the logic behind that is mindboggling
judging by your icon you play terran so there's your answer. : )
@ topic:
in my opinion hots has been a complete disaster. not even purely balance wise, that of course was to be expected really from a new game. the fact that they pretty much didn't patch anything major almost half a year afte release is absolutely mind boggling.
but the real story is hots didn't change ANY of the outside of balance great disappointments people had with WOL. death ball. turtling. too much aoe and spell casting. too little unit micro. terrible terrible damage. some of these issues got even worse. like:
people don't like to watch 50 min no attack bl infestor spine turtle games. I KNOW! let's make broodlord a completely unviable unit but add another unit that does the exact same thing broods used to do! except even slower! and more boring! and longer!! it's gonna be totally awesome!!!!!
hydras suck eh?
LETS MAKE THEM FASTER!!!! OH AND WHILE WERE AT IT
MAKE MUTA FASTER! AND MEDIVAC! TANK IS TOO SLOW, DELETE IT. ADD MINE, ITS FAST! PROTOSS DONT DO SO WELL? MAKE PRISM FASTER!
MAKE EVERYTHING FASTER
!!!!!!!!!!!
ITS PERFECT!
people dont like the balance? we designed a ladder system to give everyone 50% win rates. therefore ladder win rates are 50%
PERFECT BALANCE
WHATS THAT? YOU WANT TO BROADCAST A TOURNAMENT? WELL YOU BETTER BUY A LICENSE SO YOUR MONEY SINK COSTS EVEN MORE BRO LOL!
User was warned for this post
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I agree with that players are isolated in battle net and this is really bad. I'd like there was a system for custom games so it would work like that: You choose level of opponents for you (equal, favored etc) and get in a room with appropirate players. Not like you press "start" and get somebody. If you get in a room and negotiate about games it's much better. So you could choose the match-up or ask to obs others or just chat a little. You could train your weak MU, ask for advices etc and not to get upset by loses, like in a ladder.
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On August 10 2013 04:33 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: SCII becoming less popular. By little or by much? I don't know. But you can't ignore the fact, that instead of developing we start to get at least stagnation, if not worse. I was trying to contact Blizzard for several reasons during WoL. The reasons were different. I didn't get response for my feedback even a single time. I tried to talk with stuff from Blizzard, but no success. Even special meetings which were made for such a "discussions" were just for "V" in their diaries, not for discussion. I still remeber how in august 2012 in Germany progamers gathered together and tried to discuss with David Kim infestors and their imbalance in very late game, but he simply refused to listen. During next several months after that - huge number terran/protoss players retired. Noone wants to loose just because it's almost impossible to win. Maybe, if he listened, that wouldn't happen.
So i am writing here the open letter to Blizzard. Maybe now, they will answer for at least some of those questions.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
Dear community, if you agree with me - spread this letter wherever you can, add your questions (the biggest ones i will add in my first post). Only together we can manage to reach Blizzard and make them to answer to REALLY PROBLEMATIC questions. And even if with our efforts - we won't manage to get the answer... Well that will be also an answer from Blizzard to all of us. Now we can change something to a good side. Later - who knows? 1. i'm sure they like how it developes. the games are more exciting to watch than WoL and we'll most likely have a multitude of famous major events for the next 5+ years with enough viewers to sustain a pro scene. 2. NA or EU only tournaments are just not very interesting to watch. viewer numbers reflect that. this is a two-edged sword. on the one hand it's demotivating for a lot of foreigners to see the korean dominance, on the other hand no one cares about foreign-only tournaments. there's not much one could do. 3. small lans dont develope young players. no one EVER cared about small lans EVER. no one ever gets to hear about the winner of some small lan. young talents develope online. small lans are played and will be played because gamers like to get together and play offline. 4. good questions/ideas, i guess. 5. interesting, didnt know. obviously terran will see some buffs then. Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:14 Rabiator wrote:On August 10 2013 02:53 SinCitta wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start. As long as David Kim and Dustin Browder are still at the helm the problems will be the same ... because they are connected to the core design of the game. Stuff like "unit density" and "production capability" all lead to maximized dps which reduces the available time for a defender to react to attacks and this makes the game harder to play for new / lower skill players. LaLuSh mentioned the Infestor nerf, but what was the real problem with Fungal Growth? The problem was that it was easily chained back to back ... because Zerg had 25+ Infestors and lots of energy for Fungals. - What would happen if you couldnt control that many of them at the same time? - What would happen if there was no smartcast and you had to pick individual Infestors or waste lots of energy? - What would happen if your production and economy didnt allow you to get more than five Infestors? Fungal Growth would be less of a problem. Oh and ... - What would happen if the opponent started with spread out units instead of forcibly clumped up units? It is pretty easy to see that the really big problems are the ones which Blizzard completely ignores (because it would have been the wisest choice to fix them at the end of WoL). so people still want SC2 to be a BW clone? i think it would do more harm than good. BW fanboys would be a little happier, but there's a serious risk the player number would plummet. never thought about that? let me rephrase that. SC2 is a really really famous game right now. one of the best performing competitive games we have. the only competitive RTS we have. you wanna completely rework a game so many people love and you think it will attract more people because it's more like BW then? that's not a very sound plan, in my opinion. if you guys dont like SC2, why cant you just let it go? you're not pro anyway. go play BW. accept SC2 isnt BW2. i know it's hard. i have to accept CSGO isnt CS1.6 too. i know that feeling, trust me. I cant let it go because all the players i have followed daily for the last 6 years or so still play this game.
What i hate about sc2 is that the difference in skill so rarely shines through in the games at the highest level. Anyone can beat anyone. I blame smart cast and simplified macro and micro which levels the playing field very much and makes it harder for the best players to utplay their oponents.
One example is how only one or two players in the world, literally, could make a play like this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I3OQJKlbOuI In comparison, all the pros in sc2 use storm more or less as well as all the others.
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On August 10 2013 08:42 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 07:48 {ToT}ColmA wrote: the only important question for blizzard right now is probably why a casual player like me who is losing 30 games in a row gets 2000p master league players and then plays gm players, the logic behind that is mindboggling judging by your icon you play terran so there's your answer. : ) @ topic: in my opinion hots has been a complete disaster. not even purely balance wise, that of course was to be expected really from a new game. the fact that they pretty much didn't patch anything major almost half a year afte release is absolutely mind boggling. but the real story is hots didn't change ANY of the outside of balance great disappointments people had with WOL. death ball. turtling. too much aoe and spell casting. too little unit micro. terrible terrible damage. some of these issues got even worse. like: people don't like to watch 50 min no attack bl infestor spine turtle games. I KNOW! let's make broodlord a completely unviable unit but add another unit that does the exact same thing broods used to do! except even slower! and more boring! and longer!! it's gonna be totally awesome!!!!! hydras suck eh? LETS MAKE THEM FASTER!!!! OH AND WHILE WERE AT IT MAKE MUTA FASTER! AND MEDIVAC! TANK IS TOO SLOW, DELETE IT. ADD MINE, ITS FAST! PROTOSS DONT DO SO WELL? MAKE PRISM FASTER! MAKE EVERYTHING FASTER !!!!!!!!!!! ITS PERFECT! people dont like the balance? we designed a ladder system to give everyone 50% win rates. therefore ladder win rates are 50% PERFECT BALANCE WHATS THAT? YOU WANT TO BROADCAST A TOURNAMENT? WELL YOU BETTER BUY A LICENSE SO YOUR MONEY SINK COSTS EVEN MORE BRO LOL!
omg this is hilarious, but i agree ^^
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On August 10 2013 08:42 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 07:48 {ToT}ColmA wrote: the only important question for blizzard right now is probably why a casual player like me who is losing 30 games in a row gets 2000p master league players and then plays gm players, the logic behind that is mindboggling judging by your icon you play terran so there's your answer. : ) @ topic: in my opinion hots has been a complete disaster. not even purely balance wise, that of course was to be expected really from a new game. the fact that they pretty much didn't patch anything major almost half a year afte release is absolutely mind boggling. but the real story is hots didn't change ANY of the outside of balance great disappointments people had with WOL. death ball. turtling. too much aoe and spell casting. too little unit micro. terrible terrible damage. some of these issues got even worse. like: people don't like to watch 50 min no attack bl infestor spine turtle games. I KNOW! let's make broodlord a completely unviable unit but add another unit that does the exact same thing broods used to do! except even slower! and more boring! and longer!! it's gonna be totally awesome!!!!! hydras suck eh? LETS MAKE THEM FASTER!!!! OH AND WHILE WERE AT IT MAKE MUTA FASTER! AND MEDIVAC! TANK IS TOO SLOW, DELETE IT. ADD MINE, ITS FAST! PROTOSS DONT DO SO WELL? MAKE PRISM FASTER! MAKE EVERYTHING FASTER !!!!!!!!!!! ITS PERFECT! people dont like the balance? we designed a ladder system to give everyone 50% win rates. therefore ladder win rates are 50% PERFECT BALANCE WHATS THAT? YOU WANT TO BROADCAST A TOURNAMENT? WELL YOU BETTER BUY A LICENSE SO YOUR MONEY SINK COSTS EVEN MORE BRO LOL!
What a good way to show how bad actually hots is, well done sir :D
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Just have to toss in my two cents with the boom of these "chaos" themed threads popping up....
I haven't played SC2 in awhile, I haven't watched tournaments, I haven't watched streamers, nothing. I have spent pretty much all my time playing DOTA 2. I like it, it is fun. I play with my cousins and friends and I have a good time. I often think about SC2 and it always comes back to the thought "Why can't Blizzard do this? Wow Blizzard sucks."
I look at DOTA2 and all the time there is this influx of content and features and heroes and updates and just stuff, and it all comes in so quickly its hard to imagine. Then I look at SC2 and see how little has been done, how minimal and insignificant the changes and tweaks and additions have been on the game in upwards of 3 years. I've been playing DOTA2 for a year and have seen more in the last 6 months (my heaviest of time spent playing) than in 3 years on SC2.
It just makes me question one thing, what the hell is Blizzard doing?
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On August 10 2013 09:06 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:33 beg wrote:On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: SCII becoming less popular. By little or by much? I don't know. But you can't ignore the fact, that instead of developing we start to get at least stagnation, if not worse. I was trying to contact Blizzard for several reasons during WoL. The reasons were different. I didn't get response for my feedback even a single time. I tried to talk with stuff from Blizzard, but no success. Even special meetings which were made for such a "discussions" were just for "V" in their diaries, not for discussion. I still remeber how in august 2012 in Germany progamers gathered together and tried to discuss with David Kim infestors and their imbalance in very late game, but he simply refused to listen. During next several months after that - huge number terran/protoss players retired. Noone wants to loose just because it's almost impossible to win. Maybe, if he listened, that wouldn't happen.
So i am writing here the open letter to Blizzard. Maybe now, they will answer for at least some of those questions.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
Dear community, if you agree with me - spread this letter wherever you can, add your questions (the biggest ones i will add in my first post). Only together we can manage to reach Blizzard and make them to answer to REALLY PROBLEMATIC questions. And even if with our efforts - we won't manage to get the answer... Well that will be also an answer from Blizzard to all of us. Now we can change something to a good side. Later - who knows? 1. i'm sure they like how it developes. the games are more exciting to watch than WoL and we'll most likely have a multitude of famous major events for the next 5+ years with enough viewers to sustain a pro scene. 2. NA or EU only tournaments are just not very interesting to watch. viewer numbers reflect that. this is a two-edged sword. on the one hand it's demotivating for a lot of foreigners to see the korean dominance, on the other hand no one cares about foreign-only tournaments. there's not much one could do. 3. small lans dont develope young players. no one EVER cared about small lans EVER. no one ever gets to hear about the winner of some small lan. young talents develope online. small lans are played and will be played because gamers like to get together and play offline. 4. good questions/ideas, i guess. 5. interesting, didnt know. obviously terran will see some buffs then. On August 10 2013 04:14 Rabiator wrote:On August 10 2013 02:53 SinCitta wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start. As long as David Kim and Dustin Browder are still at the helm the problems will be the same ... because they are connected to the core design of the game. Stuff like "unit density" and "production capability" all lead to maximized dps which reduces the available time for a defender to react to attacks and this makes the game harder to play for new / lower skill players. LaLuSh mentioned the Infestor nerf, but what was the real problem with Fungal Growth? The problem was that it was easily chained back to back ... because Zerg had 25+ Infestors and lots of energy for Fungals. - What would happen if you couldnt control that many of them at the same time? - What would happen if there was no smartcast and you had to pick individual Infestors or waste lots of energy? - What would happen if your production and economy didnt allow you to get more than five Infestors? Fungal Growth would be less of a problem. Oh and ... - What would happen if the opponent started with spread out units instead of forcibly clumped up units? It is pretty easy to see that the really big problems are the ones which Blizzard completely ignores (because it would have been the wisest choice to fix them at the end of WoL). so people still want SC2 to be a BW clone? i think it would do more harm than good. BW fanboys would be a little happier, but there's a serious risk the player number would plummet. never thought about that? let me rephrase that. SC2 is a really really famous game right now. one of the best performing competitive games we have. the only competitive RTS we have. you wanna completely rework a game so many people love and you think it will attract more people because it's more like BW then? that's not a very sound plan, in my opinion. if you guys dont like SC2, why cant you just let it go? you're not pro anyway. go play BW. accept SC2 isnt BW2. i know it's hard. i have to accept CSGO isnt CS1.6 too. i know that feeling, trust me. I cant let it go because all the players i have followed daily for the last 6 years or so still play this game. What i hate about sc2 is that the difference in skill so rarely shines through in the games at the highest level. Anyone can beat anyone. I blame smart cast and simplified macro and micro which levels the playing field very much and makes it harder for the best players to utplay their oponents. One example is how only one or two players in the world, literally, could make a play like this:http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I3OQJKlbOuIIn comparison, all the pros in sc2 use storm more or less as well as all the others.
Can you imagine how depressed Jangbi must be right now, knowing that the nicest thing he can do in SC2 is throwing some forcefields here and there?
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I see a ton of people in clans, though I'm not in one myself. Are clans or groups social on SC2? And please, if your response is, "oh, I forgot, yet another failure by Blizzard," I'll need more of an explanation than that.
What I want is those ladder tournaments like the ones in WC3, plus sick icons to go with it. It'll be funny if Blizzard is releasing any of those features soon, just after another Destiny-esque mob may occur.
In terms of team-games, Blizzard All-Stars may be what SC2 needs, idk. I'm unsure if it's a SC2 mod, a potential standalone for a nominal price (or free if you own SC2). Blizzard has to be questioning whether they should make yet another MobA, with LoL and DotA2 being so successful, or whether they need some new beast. In terms of user interface, maybe it should be completely new and not tied to SC2, or perhaps it's a stepping stone to reinventing SC2 while introducing something new and fantastic.
I can dream, anyways. But it does make sense for Blizzard to try something new rather than just add a MOBA that's almost guaranteed not to be nearly as successful as the other two already are.
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If StarCraft 2 fails to continue as a popular professional e-sport then I will attribute it solely to poor game design and poor managing of race distribution and balance. I myself can't bring myself to play this game anymore because of the addition of units like the widow mine and the swarm hosts. Free units, and RNG no-micro based units just make this game annoying. Of course this is my opinion, which means you could disagree, but I know that this is at least the reason myself and a few of my masters friends stopped playing.
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I just wanted to say that I'm not really into mobas but my friends told me to check out TI2 through the dota2 client and I was blown away by the options I have as a spectator. Choosing the observer, observing on my own with free camera, observing through first person view of each player etc. Simply the best viewing experience I've had of any e-sport event so far. How I would love to watch Innovation vs Soulkey or something and had the option to view from their perspective :<
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sc2 is on its period relax, we passionate fans won't leave suddenly!
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Blizzard have engineered their own downfall with SC2. It's getting blown out of the water by Dota. The viewer experience for events is extremely average.
It makes me sad, I loved mid-early WoL. Oh well, Blizzard deserve it.
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On August 10 2013 08:42 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 07:48 {ToT}ColmA wrote: the only important question for blizzard right now is probably why a casual player like me who is losing 30 games in a row gets 2000p master league players and then plays gm players, the logic behind that is mindboggling judging by your icon you play terran so there's your answer. : ) @ topic: in my opinion hots has been a complete disaster. not even purely balance wise, that of course was to be expected really from a new game. the fact that they pretty much didn't patch anything major almost half a year afte release is absolutely mind boggling. but the real story is hots didn't change ANY of the outside of balance great disappointments people had with WOL. death ball. turtling. too much aoe and spell casting. too little unit micro. terrible terrible damage. some of these issues got even worse. like: people don't like to watch 50 min no attack bl infestor spine turtle games. I KNOW! let's make broodlord a completely unviable unit but add another unit that does the exact same thing broods used to do! except even slower! and more boring! and longer!! it's gonna be totally awesome!!!!! hydras suck eh? LETS MAKE THEM FASTER!!!! OH AND WHILE WERE AT IT MAKE MUTA FASTER! AND MEDIVAC! TANK IS TOO SLOW, DELETE IT. ADD MINE, ITS FAST! PROTOSS DONT DO SO WELL? MAKE PRISM FASTER! MAKE EVERYTHING FASTER !!!!!!!!!!! ITS PERFECT! people dont like the balance? we designed a ladder system to give everyone 50% win rates. therefore ladder win rates are 50% PERFECT BALANCE WHATS THAT? YOU WANT TO BROADCAST A TOURNAMENT? WELL YOU BETTER BUY A LICENSE SO YOUR MONEY SINK COSTS EVEN MORE BRO LOL! User was warned for this post
the guy is right, why did you warn him?
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On August 10 2013 10:43 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 08:42 willstertben wrote:On August 10 2013 07:48 {ToT}ColmA wrote: the only important question for blizzard right now is probably why a casual player like me who is losing 30 games in a row gets 2000p master league players and then plays gm players, the logic behind that is mindboggling judging by your icon you play terran so there's your answer. : ) @ topic: in my opinion hots has been a complete disaster. not even purely balance wise, that of course was to be expected really from a new game. the fact that they pretty much didn't patch anything major almost half a year afte release is absolutely mind boggling. but the real story is hots didn't change ANY of the outside of balance great disappointments people had with WOL. death ball. turtling. too much aoe and spell casting. too little unit micro. terrible terrible damage. some of these issues got even worse. like: people don't like to watch 50 min no attack bl infestor spine turtle games. I KNOW! let's make broodlord a completely unviable unit but add another unit that does the exact same thing broods used to do! except even slower! and more boring! and longer!! it's gonna be totally awesome!!!!! hydras suck eh? LETS MAKE THEM FASTER!!!! OH AND WHILE WERE AT IT MAKE MUTA FASTER! AND MEDIVAC! TANK IS TOO SLOW, DELETE IT. ADD MINE, ITS FAST! PROTOSS DONT DO SO WELL? MAKE PRISM FASTER! MAKE EVERYTHING FASTER !!!!!!!!!!! ITS PERFECT! people dont like the balance? we designed a ladder system to give everyone 50% win rates. therefore ladder win rates are 50% PERFECT BALANCE WHATS THAT? YOU WANT TO BROADCAST A TOURNAMENT? WELL YOU BETTER BUY A LICENSE SO YOUR MONEY SINK COSTS EVEN MORE BRO LOL! User was warned for this post the guy is right, why did you warn him? Because while being completely wrong, he also managed to be an ass.
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One thing people fail to realize is that games like Dota2 and LoL, hell even WoW are all based on 'money over a period of time' meaning that your going to make tons of money over the course of a few years. Games like SC2 are simply 'buy 1 copy, done' meaning people like me have bought a single copy of SC2 and spent 50 dollars, but I've sunk over 500+ in WoW during all the years I use to play it during the Vanilla/BC era. Blizzard, like most, loves money and will make more money with WoW then SC2 over a course of time. This means more attention and focus MUST be put on WoW, more things to keep people interested, more balance for PvP and more things to add to the shop like 25 dollar mounts that people will buy by the thousands. SC2 has what...? Name changes... tournaments..? Nothing to keep people like me, to keep pumping money into that franchise.
LoL and Dota2 are perfect examples of super smart people, I'm talking about company's like Valve.. Make the game free, meaning you already get massive amounts of players off the bat, put tons of effort into the game and does amazing things like the compendium and the steam workshop.. meaning players like myself are going to be putting money into it over a course of time, rather then once off the bat and never again... like SC2..
I think this is the new era of money making in terms of games, Team Fortress 2 was the first start and it super successful. Use to cost 20-40 dollars, Valve opened up the shop on it for useless items like hats and dropped the price down to 5-10. Then when the realized they make more money overtime then people buying an actual copy, made it 100% free for life.
Blizzard is also going on this trend by making their new MMO free, but of course will have a shop in it. But things like SC2 and D3 are NEVER going to make more money then Dota2 or LoL and will never surpass their popularity again after the first big WoL boom.
Just ask yourself this. Why the hell would there be 3 expansions to a RTS game that people buy for the online experience... not the single player experience..
Simple answer, because we need to buy a copy of each one of those expansions.
It's all about money in the end and quite unfortunately SC2 will never live up to BW's success and to be quite frank I feel one day SC2 will be about as popular as something like counter-strike, just put on the back burner next to games like LoL/Dota2 that will simply grow enormous due to the F2P and very smart decision making and focus these company's like Valve are putting into the games.
On August 10 2013 10:29 cozzE wrote: Blizzard have engineered their own downfall with SC2. It's getting blown out of the water by Dota. The viewer experience for events is extremely average.
It makes me sad, I loved mid-early WoL. Oh well, Blizzard deserve it.
Had to edit this in because its exactly 100% true, they engineered their own downfall the way Blizzard is working SC2, it will never be what people want.
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On August 10 2013 04:33 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:14 Rabiator wrote:On August 10 2013 02:53 SinCitta wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start. As long as David Kim and Dustin Browder are still at the helm the problems will be the same ... because they are connected to the core design of the game. Stuff like "unit density" and "production capability" all lead to maximized dps which reduces the available time for a defender to react to attacks and this makes the game harder to play for new / lower skill players. LaLuSh mentioned the Infestor nerf, but what was the real problem with Fungal Growth? The problem was that it was easily chained back to back ... because Zerg had 25+ Infestors and lots of energy for Fungals. - What would happen if you couldnt control that many of them at the same time? - What would happen if there was no smartcast and you had to pick individual Infestors or waste lots of energy? - What would happen if your production and economy didnt allow you to get more than five Infestors? Fungal Growth would be less of a problem. Oh and ... - What would happen if the opponent started with spread out units instead of forcibly clumped up units? It is pretty easy to see that the really big problems are the ones which Blizzard completely ignores (because it would have been the wisest choice to fix them at the end of WoL). so people still want SC2 to be a BW clone? i think it would do more harm than good. BW fanboys would be a little happier, but there's a serious risk the player number would plummet. never thought about that? let me rephrase that. SC2 is a really really famous game right now. one of the best performing competitive games we have. the only competitive RTS we have. you wanna completely rework a game so many people love and you think it will attract more people because it's more like BW then? that's not a very sound plan, in my opinion. if you guys dont like SC2, why cant you just let it go? you're not pro anyway. go play BW. accept SC2 isnt BW2. i know it's hard. i have to accept CSGO isnt CS1.6 too. i know that feeling, trust me. Instead of bringing the stupid "oh you just want a BW clone" argument you should try to argue with the points I raised.
Why wouldnt Fungal Growth in its original instant version be totally fine if there was no smartcast? Why wouldnt Fungal Growth in its original instant version be totally fine if there was no auto unit-clumping? Why wouldnt Fungal Growth in its original instant version be totally fine if there was no ability to build 25+ Infestors easily? The whole conclusion from this is that a game with a lower unit density is much easier to balance and you can have more exciting attacks / spells. This makes the game more exciting and allows for more varied styles.
As long as you dont try to answer these questions and try to prove that the current SC2 mass army style is better then keep your stupid "oh you just want a BW clone" remarks to yourself. People who use that phrase have never ever tried to argue their point so far ... but maybe you are a first. So ... surprise me and try to answer the questions.
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A "complete rework" is NOT NECESSARY. All you need to do is - take out all economic and production speed boosts - introduce 12 unit selection limit - exchange clumped unit movement for spread out unit movement (but with the option to clump them up through micro) After that you just need to readjust some units (mostly the AoE ones) and you are done.
The whole point is that "lower unit density = less dps = more reaction time = more chance to micro". I usually bring the "2 Zerglings vs 2 Zerglings" example, because such a fight is just as exciting as 50 on both sides ... AND it is a true testament to skill when one player wins by keeping both his Zerglings alive. Massive armies only do one thing: reduce the response time to almost zero and this is rather bad for players of lower skill ... and thus the majority of players.
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It's funny back in the day Blizzard was on top releasing hit games one after the other. Diablo 2, Brood War, and Warcraft 3 all great games. Now look at them nothing but falling wow subscriptions, huge blunders with diablo 3, and sc2 has never become even equal to it's predecessor. What happened?
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