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On August 09 2013 21:41 Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote: what the hell is the last point...
keep balance / community- esports development discussions seperate please
it simply takes time to properly balance a game, but we are making progress in the right direction imo I don't talk about balance. I say that there is something wrong with mechanics of terran, so that too little terran can actually meet the demands. That is why thons of terrans stopped playing already. Many friends of mine for example. It's about changing mechanics and priorities, not about balance in general.
Agree terran without a doubt is mechanically the most difficult. That is the reason why for example innovation can do things in tvz that others cant. What about making z and p mechanics harder. For example taking away hotkeying eggs and having to select and chain warp gates into a pylon everytime you warp in.
Maybe making a version of sc2 to lower leagues with easier mechanics, be nice for new comers.
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After getting into dota, following the big upswing that game and community has had the last year or two is pretty amazing. The most amazing part is seeing how valve always pleases the community! Even small things like changing/adding features in the game/when spectating/guild systems and so on, super fast. I feel like Blizzard is being pressured now, more then ever. Yes, you can argue that riot has pressured blizzard for a long time, but with the recent dota2 popularity, blizzard should feel the pressure even more. I've always been a blizzard fan boy, even with things like diablo3 disaster. But now, I'm not so sure anymore, they need to step it up.
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Saying that Riot is pressuring Blizzard is like saying Linux is pressuring Windows.
The problem is that blizzard makes 80% of its profit from WoW and hence WoW has 80% of their energy/support.
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On August 09 2013 21:57 blae000 wrote: After getting into dota, following the big upswing that game and community has had the last year or two is pretty amazing. The most amazing part is seeing how valve always pleases the community! Even small things like changing/adding features in the game/when spectating/guild systems and so on, super fast. I feel like Blizzard is being pressured now, more then ever. Yes, you can argue that riot has pressured blizzard for a long time, but with the recent dota2 popularity, blizzard should feel the pressure even more. I've always been a blizzard fan boy, even with things like diablo3 disaster. But now, I'm not so sure anymore, they need to step it up. I would also point out that Valve does stuff the community hates and they bitch about all the time(reporting, muting, no ladder). The key is that Valve doesn't listen to the community and has a clear vision of what they want DotA 2 to be. Blizzard should do the same and stop listening to the every whim of the community, but focus on a clear vision of what will make the game better.
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL? I am obviously no Blizzard guy, but I think SC2 does not have to compete with games of that magntitude. SC2 is a realtime strategy game, which is not as attractive as other genres.
On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II? WCS has not 8 Koreans in top-8 of each region yet.
Enabling a region lock creates other issues. While the current situation is not ideal, it could be worse. For example with region lock but greater prize pool in korea: Blizzard gets the heat for not supporting foreign regions. Region lock and same prizes: Blizzard puts an additional barrier to hard-working Koreans.
WCS is more for showing the best players, less for building new talents.
On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then? Again, a trade-off. With no big tournament, there are only some lesser tournaments to watch, with no clear story line to follow. With a big tournament and a unified story line, smaller tournaments suffer. I would rather criticize the sloppy creation of WCS, leaving many things to wish for, as the dominance of the WCS. Though I agree that WCS should leave some off-weeks inbetween seasons. But then, the WCS players want to get airtime, so the off-time cannot be too long.
On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors? Because on the ladder you have to prove that you can play versus any race. If one wants to practice, he needs a practice partner for custom games. Ladder is mostly for the non-pro players.
On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then? Race distribution goes up and down. While currently the time for terrans are bleak, it was not always so and better days for terrans will come again.
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a slew of Zerg players are retiring... i dont know, but I would like to see FREE to play SC2 with pay skins and customization in game #1 thing.
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sorry i quit sc2, 2 gm's in AM terran gone =(
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People here are misinterpreting point 5. It's not about "LOL TERRAN UP", it's about the fact that Terran has been underplayed for years now. Yes, if you look at major tournaments Terran seems to have been doing fine due to 1 to 3 strong Korean Terrans that are capable of winning things in any given period regardless of short term balance. However, if you look at GM numbers, Terran is very consistently underplayed and if you look at smaller non-premier tournaments, cups, zotacs, etc, it's pretty sad much less Terran wins. Now, again, this does NOT prove Terran is "UP" in general, but it certainly shows that something is not right on the non-Korean side of the curve.
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On August 09 2013 22:21 tredogz wrote: a slew of Zerg players are retiring... i dont know, but I would like to see FREE to play SC2 with pay skins and customization in game #1 thing. You can already play freely, with one race and a limited map pool. Do you really want to say many skins ingame? That would distract me. And if it could be turned off, there is not so much incentive to purchase a customization.
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On August 09 2013 20:22 HerrHorst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:17 Kreb wrote:lol I wake up to doom sayers all over both reddit and TL. You guys realize that while SC2 optimism was all time high (probably before LoL came in to take the #1 esports popularity title), having 45k or whatever on a random middle-of-the-week-day for a Ro16 in SC2 was absolutely unheard of. You remember the Dreamhack with the MC-Whitera final? It had what, 60k-ish viewers? The year after with the highly famous Thorzain win over Polt? Maybe 70-75k or so? Hell even DH Bucharest last year which Nerchio won had a very lackluster like 40k (?) or so viewers. When the extremely hyped NASL season 1 came around? 15k-ish on a normal day maybe? Only to fall down to 5-10k or maybe even below 5k as hype dropped off following seasons. Now we're getting 45k on a freaking random Ro16 at a bad time, DH events pull 100k+ the final day. So does WCS EU and say what you want about WCS AM but its way higher than what you'd get on any random NA tourny run on normal week days. On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: SCII becoming less popular... Yea, right. With this attitude you are complete ruining the usual doomsday-mood. Don't listen to him the game is dead and in short time TL will be bought by amazon and selling books. On a more serious note: I think it's very bad that Blizzard refuses to engage more with the progamers. They did in the past, but the problem is that, like everyone here, they're biased as hell. Icefrog can get away with progamer feedback because, in Dota, everyone plays everything, but the devs don't have that kind of luxury in SC2.
They also can't really ask the community for feedback(though they've done a good job of it so far in HotS), because the vast majority of it is just "Make Brood War."
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This is the whiniest thread I've seen in a while
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there are foreigners playing for badminton teams in China, similar thing for local hong kong football club. not an issue at all. rather, the prize pool for those region should be adjusted accordingly, not just an easy way to get into the finals
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On August 09 2013 20:19 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:05 DrPandaPhD wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. Or they are just more fun to play? Ever thought of that possibility? Fun? All my friends who play LoL complain about their teammates being dicks, ruining 50% of their games. Then there is also always the same shit: creepkilling --> small fights --> dragon --> big fights untill game over. I played LoL for more than a month, because I wanted to like, since everyone plays it. After a month I was just sick of it. SC2 on the other hand, I can play for 10 hours every day, and I'm still not tired of it. But okay, that's personal taste ofcourse. It's just sad to see the RTS genre slowly dying (if you don't count moba as rts ofc). Not interested in responding to all this "sc2 is dying" crap, since those who enjoy rts-ses will always stay.
But really, all of you calling MOBA's bad, you just didn't take any effort to understand the game. For someone who tries, and learns, it will be an extremely rewarding experience. Especially if you actually have friends to play with. If it's not your thing, fine, but there's no need to be sour like all you dota-haters and post super simplified versions of how the game goes:
"clicking creeps->teamfights where no one understands->teamfight is over->win->ez game no strategy lololol"
MOBA Haters: So your inability to get good at the game makes the game bad? I'll suppress my love for sc2 a bit and post this to show you how stupid it is
SC2 SUMMARY: "make workers->make base->two deathballs clash into each other->one deathball is destroyed->win->ez game no strategy lololol"
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A little late to the thread but here is my personal perspective on things.
SC2 as it currently stands cannot stand up to MOBAs. That's just going to be a fact. It is a pay-to-play RTS. It is harder and it is not free.
I still identify myself as an SC2 player. I still lead my CSL team and I watch every tournament when I can. But I've just stopped playing. Instead I've started playing a MOBA (Smite, for anyone that has heard of it). So do 2 of my former SC2er friends. It is just straight up easier and because of that I relax when I play. It was the same thing a while back when I played Sotis (sc2 custom game that I stopped playing when it got terrible). I can play it with my friends and have a very good time (and the game is much better suited to this than SC2 is). I don't follow the scene at all, but I like playing the game. Compared to SC2 it is more fun for the time (and the money - it's free).
Now imagine if I hadn't played any games before and I had to decide now which one to devote time to. Obviously it'd be smite.
I had a conversation with my friend who was a SC2er turned LoLer. We agreed on the same thing - SC2 took more skill, but LoL had the potential to be wilder. More things going on. SC2 is still limited by the fact that it is 1v1 and is limited by the abilities of 1 human. With LoL there is constant action, and we all know how SC2 has turned mostly into a big fight at the end (with exceptions of course).
So that is where the appeal is. And imo simply put, SC2 cannot both retain its status as a premier rts AND make itself accessible to newbies. The free to play + lan would help, but in the end LoL is easier. We play games for fun. And SC2 gets stressful. The unranked queue was a great idea to help this but no matter what in a MOBA the work is split amongst 5 people.
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Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful.
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valve just implements lots of cool stuff into the game like ingame tournament viewing or the compendium. they keep the players interested with new stuff while blizzard releases a new expansion every 3 years. if there were any dota2 tournaments in the netherlands i would have already switched by now.
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On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful.
This post is so much true and explains why sc2 is built up wrong from the very beggining. Not to mention some design failures like forcefields, collosus or warp in.
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Not much of a question, I just wish they will not do a WCS 2014. Or atleast model it according to The International and not LCS. As is, aside from Europe, it did not help SC2, but its crippling it in general.
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On August 09 2013 23:10 Sithril wrote: Not much of a question, I just wish they will not do a WCS 2014. Or atleast model it according to The International and not LCS. As is, aside from Europe, it did not help SC2, but its crippling it in general. So you want no SC2 events except for Dreamhack, IEM and HSC for 2014 outside of Korea?
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On August 09 2013 23:09 Marjosz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. This post is so much true and explains why sc2 is built up wrong from the very beggining. Not to mention some design failures like forcefields, collosus or warp in.
you just hate protoss don't you
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