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SCII becoming less popular. By little or by much? I don't know. But you can't ignore the fact, that instead of developing we start to get at least stagnation, if not worse. I was trying to contact Blizzard for several reasons during WoL. The reasons were different. I didn't get response for my feedback even a single time. I tried to talk with stuff from Blizzard, but no success. Even special meetings which were made for such a "discussions" were just for "V" in their diaries, not for discussion. I still remeber how in august 2012 in Germany progamers gathered together and tried to discuss with David Kim infestors and their imbalance in very late game, but he simply refused to listen. During next several months after that - huge number terran/protoss players retired. Noone wants to loose just because it's almost impossible to win. Maybe, if he listened, that wouldn't happen.
So i am writing here the open letter to Blizzard. Maybe now, they will answer for at least some of those questions.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
Dear community, if you agree with me - spread this letter wherever you can, add your questions (the biggest ones i will add in my first post). Only together we can manage to reach Blizzard and make them to answer to REALLY PROBLEMATIC questions. And even if with our efforts - we won't manage to get the answer... Well that will be also an answer from Blizzard to all of us. Now we can change something to a good side. Later - who knows?
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i agree to your post.the points here have been mentioned countless times by others and its good that progamer mentions them again.Couple of things i would like to mention
1.if blizzard treated you the way you say you did it is bad. other companies such as riot and valve have excellent relationships with their proplayers
2.regarding the wcs you are right but there will always be a vocal minority who says they want koreans and accuse you of racism otherwise.
as far as the bolden part goes I think blizzard once ignored a 200k signature petition for lan so i guess they can kindly skip this one.And even if they take it into consideration we may never know because blizzard employees do not communicate like riot employees on the forums.
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Хорошый вопросы!
Не знаю чувак, вроде сейчас близзарду пофиг T_T
User was warned for this post
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On August 09 2013 18:44 theking1 wrote:
2.regarding the wcs you are right but there will always be a vocal minority who says they want koreans and accuse you of racism otherwise.
In the majority of football leagues (i don't know about other games) there is a rule, that team has to have players from the country it plays in. For example in Ukraine, from 11 players - 4 have to be ukrainians. In Italy, Spain - only several players can be non-EU, in England you can receive permit for work, only if you got big percentage of games for your national football team, e.t.c. So you can play, if you for example korean, but slots are limited.
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This is just sad and yet again more fuel to the fire that the top heads on SC2 are stubborn know-it-alls.
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Not sure what your aim here is. Questions like this are asked daily on bnet forums to no avail. WCS rules are committed to paper and won't change this year and neither will anything about terran. Rest of the questions will at best produce a generic 'calm down/all is fine' post.
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Constantly comes these questions and discussions, and There was no right answers i think these question is also same as before that
and you can get answers for some of your questions from one of episode of State of The Game show that hosted by JP i can't remember which espisode is... but one of Blizzard staff was discussed and answered around the WCS and develops SCII scene.
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Well, I've started learning Dota
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Strelok, you should participate in some show like SOTG or Inside Of The Game, and give your insights. If you, progamers, group up and right a real letter maybe blizzard will start listening. Its better if you write it directly to Blizzard's CEO.
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On August 09 2013 18:50 Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:44 theking1 wrote:
2.regarding the wcs you are right but there will always be a vocal minority who says they want koreans and accuse you of racism otherwise.
In the majority of football leagues (i don't know about other games) there is a rule, that team has to have players from the country it plays in. For example in Ukraine, from 11 players - 4 have to be ukrainians. In Italy, Spain - only several players can be non-EU, in England you can receive permit for work, only if you got big percentage of games for your national football team, e.t.c. So you can play, if you for example korean, but slots are limited.
i know.it is the same in romania.i gave this example a couple of times here on tl and i was replied that this is esports not football.even when i gave them the example of riot with the lcs they said sc2 isnt lol.
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Blizzard are too brazen, too bravado and they have this delusion that they are still the best and screw everybody, they don't know shit.
They've forgotten that they need to compete and compete against better companies these days like Valve and Riot and others, they still think this is 10 years ago where absolutely everyone adored Blizzard, but they are not, with the pay to play WOW, with no LAN for SC2, with the restricted regions for SC2 for so long, with the always online requirement for Diablo 3, with the terrible story telling in their new games, to some of the voice acting decisions like to change Kerrigan's original voice actor, to not listening to the fans, they are very much disliked.
They are so out of reality, they are so out of touch and unless they wake up and realize what a bunch of pricks they've become, its going to go downhill for them.
I mean the community can always change games, can always come up with better games than Blizzard like it did with Dota and like it did with tower defenses and other types of maps.
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I agree on the big lines but for everything concerning current balance, I think it's still too early to say anything, I think the fact we have that many protoss is also due to the fact that protoss new units and abilities are easier to master than terran or Zerg new units and abilities. I think we still need to wait at least a month to speak about imbalance. WCS is clearly not as good as the International or LCS (from what I'm told, I don't watch any of those). I think a good idea for Koreans that want to play in other regions would be to hold a qualifier with only Koreans for each region with limited number of spots.
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On August 09 2013 19:00 saddaromma wrote: Strelok, you should participate in some show like SOTG or Inside Of The Game, and give your insights. If you, progamers, group up and right a real letter maybe blizzard will start listening. Its better if you write it directly to Blizzard's CEO.
I already pointed out, that Blizzard doesn't talk with progamers. Not only me.
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I don't know where all the 'SC2 is declining' is coming from. SC2 is doing stable and for example WCS Season 2 so far is more successful then WCS Season 1 on all three fronts. The other games are rising quicker, yes, but DotA is at best tied with SC2 at any single day (yes, they do have The International that is blowing everything out of the water, but they also don't have big tournaments like Dreamhack and league like WCS at all). And LoL is obviously more popular, which is a result of much higher player base and Riot putting millions of dollars into it. I don't think SC2 is doing bad at all, to be honest...
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On August 09 2013 19:07 ErrantKnight wrote: I think a good idea for Koreans that want to play in other regions would be to hold a qualifier with only Koreans for each region with limited number of spots.
Very good idea
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it's the same as diablo 3, they don't want to listen to anyone's opinions but their own even while claiming otherwise. I honestly think the game needs major design changes (dont get me wrong I love sc2) and has needed them since the beginning.
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if i look at WCS, EU seems to kind of have worked out (for now), NA on the other hand is a disaster for the local players, fans and scene no matter how you look at it, they need to make adjustments, be it by increasing the offline portion, or elsewhere, and dont forget china only because 2 visa worked out THIS time...
Balancewise, they had so much plans for HotS, and now we are sitting here with very limited playstyles for terran again, which dissappoints me greatly.
These are not so much questions i know, but simple observations, i really do think HotS was very good, but i don't like that Blizzard have already put their balance tools away and just turn a knob here and there, already very satisfied with what they have done.
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sadly enough it's time for blizzard to take a long look in the mirror and start listening to their player base. It's not only SCII that's on a decline. Almost all their products are. WoW has been going down steadily for years now, dota is simply beeing blown away by lol, diablo 3 is a mere shadow of it's predecessors. And there is one thing all these games appear to have in common, blizzard stubbornly refuses to listen to their community
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1. I watch sc2 since first sc2 tournament (IEM Cologne, Morrow won vs IdrA) and I really dislike sc2 develop since IEM. From time to time player will play better (even if we still play with patch 1.0), but the main problem is "the better the qualitiy of the game, the more boring they are to watch". This is a gamedesign problem of sc2. Diablo3 is a perfect example, yeah kill azmodan within 10sec in pm10 with stupid ww barbarian or cm wizard, because he has the items (from the best quality)
2. I really dislike it, they downgraded all other weekend-tournament so much. We need more weekend tounaments without wcs points. WCS should be alone with wcs points for their wcs stuff (season finals, blizzard finals), I hope this happens in 2014.
3. As I said in 2.
4. In my opinion Blizzard killed to much, they can't recover.
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
What are you on about, where you pulling those numbers from?
http://www.sc2ranks.com/hots/eu/1v1/all/terran - 69 T GM EU
http://www.sc2ranks.com/hots/am/1v1/all/terran - 75 T GM US
http://www.sc2ranks.com/hots/fea/1v1/all/terran - 68 T GM KR
The average should be 66.6 players from each race excluding random players.
If anything terran players are slightly over represented in the GM league.
EDIT: ok as others pointed out sc2ranks numbers are off, i'll show myself out
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Slipped in the balance whine just so people know this is a foreign progamer.
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sc2ranks gives incorrect info. Count yourself in game.
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Blizzard when they hear someone criticizing them:
User was warned for this post
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sc2ranks is bugged, use nios.kr
Europe: Terran (56 Users) Zerg 29.95% (59 Users) Protoss 41.62% (82 Users)
Korea: Terran 26.18% (50 Users) Zerg 34.03% (65 Users) Protoss 39.27% (75 Users) Random 0.52% (1 Users)
America: Terran 23.62% (47 Users) Zerg 34.17% (68 Users) Protoss 42.21% (84 Users)
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What do you think of changing evry season central units settings / balance, for making the game more individual and give it more changes?
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I agree with strelok that blizzard is a bit too reluctant to listen to the community to make changes. I disagree with a lot of other stuff though.
WCS is fantastic for foreigners. We finally have really tough opponents to face in our own back yards. This should force the players to be better. The game is all learned, it isnt like koreans have some innate ability or racial bonus.
I also disagree that the games balance is bad. It is really close to being balanced, and I would like to see small tweaks. Which brings me back to what I agree with in that blizzard is too reluctant to make changes.
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3,4,5 THE TRUTH HAS BEEN SPOKEN
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The thing that amazes me the most is that we usually are inclined to say "Blizzard only has small department for SC2, they can't possibly work on all the things we want, we shall wait.. etc". But Blizzard does invest a lot of efforts and a lot of money in ventures related to SC2 that often produce questionable results for the scene. There seem to be management issues.
p.s. What happened with Strelok TL Attack? I'm still waiting. (or did i miss it?)
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On August 09 2013 19:31 Blup1 wrote: What do you think of changing evry season central units settings / balance, for making the game more individual and give it more changes? A MUCH better version of that would be to have a limited number of unit types for every player and you have to decide before the game which ones you would have available in the game. You might have the choice between Marauder and Firebat, Reaper and Medic, Thor and Goliath, Hellion and Vulture, ... and maybe some unit choices force others to prevent too abusive combos. If you do it this way every game could be really different and unpredictable, because you wouldnt know which units the opponent had.
The problem with all these things is the MASSIVE economy and production in SC2, which makes producing lots of units far too easy and thus critical numbers are too easily reached. So any such "flexible" system would need that economy and production to be toned down to make the game more "robust" and requiring less precise balancing as it does now.
It could be done and there are only two things which stand in its way: 1. Blizzards stubborn dev department and 2. parts of the "boohoo I wont be interested in a game where only 10 units from each side fight each other"-community. Since you can sell anything with the right propaganda this wont be a problem if #1 changes full force and annonces that a low economy game is cool shit now.
On August 09 2013 19:36 figq wrote: The thing that amazes me the most is that we usually are inclined to say "Blizzard only has small department for SC2, they can't possibly work on all the things we want, we shall wait.. etc". But Blizzard does invest a lot of efforts and a lot of money in ventures related to SC2 that often produce questionable results for the scene. There seem to be management issues. That kinda reminds me of the people who drive a shiny brand new and expensive Mercedes and then get their food from the cheapest place they can find ... false priorities ...
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The problem for the smaller tournaments should have been obvious, but perhaps some of the regular ones could be integrated into the whole as qualifiers? Either make them give out "qualification points" and the top people get into challenger league or go by rankings in a predetermined set of tournaments (which would then be covered by the main WCS broadcasting organization as well).
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SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players.
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I mostly agree with Strelok and have pretty much started to lose faith in Blizzards ability to keep up with Valve and Riot. Even tought I mainly play SC2, I feel like TI3 is like 10 times better than WCS from the viewer point of view and yes WCS format was rushed and it is at some level damaging the scene.
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so is this thread going to be a thing or not? Because right now, it doesn't bring a lot of new stuff to the table.Or in detail, - Blizzard already commented that they may change the WCS system, but only next year. - The balancecomplaints shouldn't be in here with the other stuff. Balanceproblems are ever-changing with the metagame. - Chatchannels have been improved a lot over the course of SC2. I don't quite understand the problem you have with them. - SC2 is not going to become as popular as LoL. That ship has sailed a long time ago, and it has little to do with SC2 in specific, much more with the RTS genre, f2p, teamgames>sologames in popularity.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players.
Probably not. There'd just be less LoL players.
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On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. The problem is that SC2 is not easy to play because of the "millisecond response time" you get due to the massive armies (which result in massive dps and thus lower the reaction time to "less than a second or your forces are dead"). This is a design flaw.
The antisocial aspect of lacking chat channels doesnt help form / support a community either.
The massive army aspect really makes team games (like the Day[9] classic BW BGH 2v2v2v2 game) really terrible in SC2) due to the "too high army dps" problem.
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On August 09 2013 19:08 Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:00 saddaromma wrote: Strelok, you should participate in some show like SOTG or Inside Of The Game, and give your insights. If you, progamers, group up and right a real letter maybe blizzard will start listening. Its better if you write it directly to Blizzard's CEO. I already pointed out, that Blizzard doesn't talk with progamers. Not only me.
For example, Grubby has stated on several occassions, even in interviews, that he is approached by blizzard quite often. For both general feedback as more balance-wise feedback.
Also you say sc II is stagnating, I say sc2 is reaching the highest viewer numbers it ever has, on twitch and gom.tv combined. And if you see how many new players are playing the game right now ( Look at all those diamond players getting pushed upwards into masters league, because the lower leagues are now taken by the mass of new (or returning) players), I say sc2 is doing pretty damn well.
It will never be and has never been as popular as the Easy-to-understand and free-to-play League of Legends, but that was never the case in the first place. Compare sc2 to sc2 3 years ago, not sc2 to LoL at the moment.
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I like 1-4 , but wth is up with 5? You really wanna complain to blizzard that terran is UP?
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On August 09 2013 19:50 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. The problem is that SC2 is not easy to play because of the "millisecond response time" you get due to the massive armies (which result in massive dps and thus lower the reaction time to "less than a second or your forces are dead"). This is a design flaw. The antisocial aspect of lacking chat channels doesnt help form / support a community either. The massive army aspect really makes team games (like the Day[9] classic BW BGH 2v2v2v2 game) really terrible in SC2) due to the "too high army dps" problem.
It's funny, you didn't complain about SC2 being "too fast" in WoL. But then blizzard introduced the medivac boosters and gave mutalisks a 6.25% speed buff, and you have been pesky about it ever since. One may even think you just like to bash on everything SC2 is that BW was not
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On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players.
as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport!
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On August 09 2013 19:09 Ammanas wrote: I don't know where all the 'SC2 is declining' is coming from. SC2 is doing stable and for example WCS Season 2 so far is more successful then WCS Season 1 on all three fronts. The other games are rising quicker, yes, but DotA is at best tied with SC2 at any single day (yes, they do have The International that is blowing everything out of the water, but they also don't have big tournaments like Dreamhack and league like WCS at all). And LoL is obviously more popular, which is a result of much higher player base and Riot putting millions of dollars into it. I don't think SC2 is doing bad at all, to be honest... I can't speak for SC2's growth since I haven't really followed it for months now, but Dota 2 is definitely going to rise a lot faster than SC2, from a casual player perspective and from a tournament perspective. It's also a great lesson on how to grow the a competitive scene.
1. It is one of the most played games in Steam and continues to rise. 2. Even with only one (maybe two) arguably "big" tournaments Western tournaments: The International and Dreamhack (and even the Dota 2 Dreamhack tournament is still in it infancy) the viewer numbers are extremely high. 3. Chinese servers are still in beta, which has been one of the criticism of the Chinese viewers. When there are more players playing on the Perfect World servers, there's almost certain to be a rise in viewer numbers. 4. The attendance at the NSL finals (Korean league) was amazing.
Dota 2 tried to start out "big" with TI1, but IMO that didn't really work as it was badly planned (I think it was too abruptly scheduled) and had terrible production (my personal peeve with it).
Valve has since taken their time in building the eSports infrastructure organically and it's working extremely well. The lesson here is that you can't just merely pump money into a scene and you've got to let the game grow the scene. TI2 was only successful because of the successes of the community, the excellent planning of it (as opposed to TI1) but most importantly because of how well the game had developed while in beta.
TI3 has been further building on the successes of TI2. Better planning, improved game. It's worked so well that Valve has managed to sell more than $5million worth of compendium sales. That is how you grow a scene. And TI3 will only go towards building the scene even more.
While there are still some challenges for Dota 2, mainly with regards to the existence of other "big" tournaments besides TI3 and having to compete with LoL, it's still a good example of how Valve has managed to create a really great competitive scene.
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On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport! I find it more spectator friendly than dota2/LoL. I dont know/understand the mechanics of 100+ heroes. I understand the draft is important, but I dont understand the choices or possibilities. When a fight happens, I see healthbars go down and good teamwork but I dont understand any of it.
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On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport!
Still much better then any MOBA though.
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On August 09 2013 19:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:50 Rabiator wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. The problem is that SC2 is not easy to play because of the "millisecond response time" you get due to the massive armies (which result in massive dps and thus lower the reaction time to "less than a second or your forces are dead"). This is a design flaw. The antisocial aspect of lacking chat channels doesnt help form / support a community either. The massive army aspect really makes team games (like the Day[9] classic BW BGH 2v2v2v2 game) really terrible in SC2) due to the "too high army dps" problem. It's funny, you didn't complain about SC2 being "too fast" in WoL. But then blizzard introduced the medivac boosters and gave mutalisks a 6.25% speed buff, and you have been pesky about it ever since. One may even think you just like to bash on everything SC2 is that BW was not
I don't want to go into balance, but a bit slower pace and/or reduced damage overall would give good players more/better opportunity to react. In the state its now, some strategies and timings or situations give you no time to react and I don't speak for me that I cannot react in time, but neither can the very top. If a warpprism lands in your base and the forcefield is casted, there is nothing more to react. Even if you realized it, physically giving the advice to the troups can never be as fast as the thought. When its a bit slower, you might give the troops the order so you could potentially defend.
I think Starcraft 2 is a very good game, but overall reduced damage or speed might increase the skill ceiling and potential of the game. I don't know, but it would be easy to find out :D
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On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport!
You kidding right? SC2 is perfect as a spectator sport. It's amazing to see the top sc2 players play. Watching good micro, multitasking, sick strategies etc...
On the other hand LoL is boring as fuck to spectate: first you see some laning, then you see some teamfights where you think "wtf is happening", then the teamfight is over.
SC2 > LoL as spectator sport IMO.
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Ah, I'm glad someone is striking at the heart of the issue instead of blaming production quality, other business, etc. After watching Starcraft 2 for 3 years, I started to realize how just how much this community is held back by the quality of the game. Sadly the only one that can make a difference is Blizzard, and I find it highly unlikely that will ever happen. They have one more shot with legacy of the void before Esports hangs on the hinges of Moba's. ...which is incredibly unfortunate.
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Is it possible to pass Starcraft 2 in Free to Play? imo F2P = more players = more viewers on streams event = more money for organisers = everybody happy no?
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Even if Blizzard decides in theory that something needs to be changed, they'll do it their way and they'll do it much much later than needed. Hey how are they gonna sell LoV if they put everything we want in HotS.
There is that thing about Dota2/LoL being f2p, while blizzard games are too costly, that hinders a lot of players from entering the SC2 scene. The starter edition is miserable, it offers nothing and by playing it, if I didn't know beforehand I would've never bought the game.
Why don't they start to control their greed a bit and offer an alternative, they can't compete with f2p like this. I was thinking something along these lines:
1) Have 2 versions of SC2. One competitive as f2p and one as a complete package for the same price they are selling WoL and HotS.
2) Let the complete package have everything the intended to put in the game like single player, multiplayer, skins, decals, portraits, all achievements and so on
3) Let the competitive versions have only matchmaking (ranked, unranked, custom), watching replays, chat channels and other things that are needed for someone who wants to play competitive SC2.
That way new players can try the game, play with their friends after watching WCS and if they want more achievement points, or some portrait they can buy the complete package.
Moreover I can't help but feel that Blizzard is always many steps too late in everything they do.
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On August 09 2013 19:50 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:08 Strelok wrote:On August 09 2013 19:00 saddaromma wrote: Strelok, you should participate in some show like SOTG or Inside Of The Game, and give your insights. If you, progamers, group up and right a real letter maybe blizzard will start listening. Its better if you write it directly to Blizzard's CEO. I already pointed out, that Blizzard doesn't talk with progamers. Not only me. For example, Grubby has stated on several occassions, even in interviews, that he is approached by blizzard quite often. For both general feedback as more balance-wise feedback. Also you say sc II is stagnating, I say sc2 is reaching the highest viewer numbers it ever has, on twitch and gom.tv combined. And if you see how many new players are playing the game right now ( Look at all those diamond players getting pushed upwards into masters league, because the lower leagues are now taken by the mass of new (or returning) players), I say sc2 is doing pretty damn well. It will never be and has never been as popular as the Easy-to-understand and free-to-play League of Legends, but that was never the case in the first place. Compare sc2 to sc2 3 years ago, not sc2 to LoL at the moment. Not doing well enough to compete with Dota and LoL as an e-sport. Other games increasing their bases way faster than SC2 does so it's considered "declining" cuz money rolling in sc2 is decresing because of that. One of the reason MLG doesn't want sc2 anymore.
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: SCII becoming less popular. By little or by much? I don't know. But you can't ignore the fact, that instead of developing we start to get at least stagnation, if not worse. I was trying to contact Blizzard for several reasons during WoL. The reasons were different. I didn't get response for my feedback even a single time. I tried to talk with stuff from Blizzard, but no success. Even special meetings which were made for such a "discussions" were just for "V" in their diaries, not for discussion. I still remeber how in august 2012 in Germany progamers gathered together and tried to discuss with David Kim infestors and their imbalance in very late game, but he simply refused to listen. During next several months after that - huge number terran/protoss players retired. Noone wants to loose just because it's almost impossible to win. Maybe, if he listened, that wouldn't happen.
So i am writing here the open letter to Blizzard. Maybe now, they will answer for at least some of those questions.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
Dear community, if you agree with me - spread this letter wherever you can, add your questions (the biggest ones i will add in my first post). Only together we can manage to reach Blizzard and make them to answer to REALLY PROBLEMATIC questions. And even if with our efforts - we won't manage to get the answer... Well that will be also an answer from Blizzard to all of us. Now we can change something to a good side. Later - who knows?
1. Remain on level? Too late bro....now we're playing catch up from waaaaaaay behind.
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On August 09 2013 19:59 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport! You kidding right? SC2 is perfect as a spectator sport. It's amazing to see the top sc2 players play. Watching good micro, multitasking, sick strategies etc... On the other hand LoL is boring as fuck to spectate: first you see some laning, then you see some teamfights where you think "wtf is happening", then the teamfight is over. SC2 > LoL as spectator sport IMO.
SC2 is hard to understand if you are not playing/watching it. LoL too, but more people play LoL. I don't think either of them is a good spectator sport compared to the simiplicity of watching football. They won't ever exceed their player base in terms of viewer numbers.
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On August 09 2013 19:47 Big J wrote: - Chatchannels have been improved a lot over the course of SC2. I don't quite understand the problem you have with them.
lol chatchannels have improved? then why is it when i join the TL channel of the TL group that i am the only one talking? i never go into chat channels because nobody pays attention to them, i am the only one talking and that is boring as fuck. when i played brood war last year on iccup there weren't many people but they were damn sure talking their ass off.
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On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. Or they are just more fun to play? Ever thought of that possibility?
I've played a lot of SC2, problem is that I don't find the ladder very fun because it feels alone. Like I might as well go play 100 games vs bots and there won't be much of a difference really. The teamgames turned into cheesefests so I just stopped playing and only watched.
As a Dota player, even if it didn't exist I would still probably not play SC2 so it wouldn't increase the playerbase like you think. The game is not very fun to play for me and many others.
Biggest reason Dota/LoL has a big success atm is because their developers listens to the community. They realize that the best way to make money is to make the community happy.
"Do you really want chat channels?"
Valve and Riot wouldn't even have asked and just done it. That's the difference.
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On August 09 2013 20:04 SCguineapig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:47 Big J wrote: - Chatchannels have been improved a lot over the course of SC2. I don't quite understand the problem you have with them.
lol chatchannels have improved? then why is it when i join the TL channel of the TL group that i am the only one talking? i never go into chat channels because nobody pays attention to them, i am the only one talking and that is boring as fuck. when i played brood war last year on iccup there weren't many people but they were damn sure talking their ass off. You cant really force people to use the chat channels. Unless you disable alt+tab. They exist and people are in them... they just dont use them for some reason.
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B.net channels is a good point, attention from WCS to ensure smaller leagues and tournaments get space to breathe is a good point.
Rest of your post I couldn't disagree more.
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Why do we always have these threads where we try to figure out why people like to play other games? And why does it always come down to chat channels, like they would "save" SC2?
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Austria2609 Posts
On August 09 2013 20:01 coyote37 wrote: Is it possible to pass Starcraft 2 in Free to Play? imo F2P = more players = more viewers on streams event = more money for organisers = everybody happy no?
=hackers get a new free account everytime they get banned. (not that blizzard is trying that hard on the hacking department)
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On August 09 2013 20:04 SCguineapig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:47 Big J wrote: - Chatchannels have been improved a lot over the course of SC2. I don't quite understand the problem you have with them.
lol chatchannels have improved? then why is it when i join the TL channel of the TL group that i am the only one talking? i never go into chat channels because nobody pays attention to them, i am the only one talking and that is boring as fuck. when i played brood war last year on iccup there weren't many people but they were damn sure talking their ass off.
Is that the problem of the chatchannels? I enjoy playing the game very much without talking with 14yo's raging after everygame. From the experiences I have made with SC2 chatchannels they come down to: "PROTOSS IS SO IMBA. FUCK THAT RACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - comments. The only useful Chatchannel in SC2 I still use is the Starbow channel, because everybody knows everyone around there and tries not to rage and whine after each and everygame.
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On August 09 2013 20:03 HeartOfTheSwarm wrote: Moreover I can't help but feel that Blizzard is always many steps too late in everything they do. This.
I've always disliked the fact that Blizzard were too slow in responding to community feedback with regards to gameplay, sometimes making extremely dubious decisions. Decisions like:
1. Ladder map pools, spawn positions, blockable ramps. 2. Late nerfing of Infestors (as opposed to really quick nerfing of hellions, and a bunch of other stuff I can't remember) 3. The sad state of custom games.
I won't go into the business aspects of things as they probably have their own strategy with regards to that, but it's silly how decisions like that (which have almost 0 impact on their bottom lines) are delayed so long that it often comes too late. Its almost like it seems that Blizzard live in their own world which is separate from the world the rest of the community lives in.
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On August 09 2013 20:09 Plansix wrote: Why do we always have these threads where we try to figure out why people like to play other games? And why does it always come down to chat channels, like they would "save" SC2?
how can't you see that little kids raging against each other in the 60seconds before the matchmaking has found a new game for them does not save SC2?
I think people should be forced to whine at least once after everygame to be allowed to start a new one! That would improve our community so much.
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I find WCS has about 10k-20k per day for EU and for US. I'm asleep during Korea one but I assume similar or greater numbers.
It seems to me that more people are watching consistently *because* of WCS and then spike up during weekend events of which there is one every few months. This feels like a kind of ebb and flow that is desired. No overrsaturation, just consistency.
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I really hope Blizzard answers this community letter.
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now its every 3/4 cheater on ladder in master with F2P will be every second so i think there is others ways to improve still..... for casual player game become boring and watchable only in top top top tier players..... and terran after nerfs are like, u can be better in everything and u lose cause better pallete of units from zerg,protoss.....
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On August 09 2013 20:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:09 Plansix wrote: Why do we always have these threads where we try to figure out why people like to play other games? And why does it always come down to chat channels, like they would "save" SC2? how can't you see that little kids raging against each other in the 60seconds before the matchmaking has found a new game for them does not save SC2? I think people should be forced to whine at least once after everygame to be allowed to start a new one! That would improve our community so much. I've been so wrong up to this point. So wrong. Clearly we shouldn't all just play and enjoy that game. Maybe if we spent more time having fun and playing SC2 and less time bitching LoL and Dota 2 being good games, we would be happier.
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It echoes what many who have already quit SC2 said : Blizzard does not care since they teamed up with Activision. Bobby Kotick cares about one thing: Money. All of the problems that the game has right now (including WCS) stems from this.
Blizzard can simply not compete with the giant communities of Dota 2 and LoL. It's less about the game and much more about the company practice. Riot and Valve take way better care of the community, voices get heard, the games get regular updates that reflect the views of everyone, not just a small in-house design team ran by David Kim.
If I'm being honest, I never enjoyed SC2 a fraction of what I enjoyed about BW, but there is no use crying over it since both games are pretty much dead - MLG dropping SC2 is one more hefty nail in the coffin (despite what some of the desperate pros are saying.) Gaming and esports moves along quickly. New games and new technology means things get old really fast, and since Blizzard are notoriously slow for fixing issues like balance, people get tired even faster. That is why so many players quit. I have not played a single game of SC2 since picking up Dota2 beta account last year. It's just more fun, I can play with friends, and the constant updates and novelties upheld by Valve makes SC2 look laughable.
Then lastly it's the game design. SC2 has some absolutely horrible design, the Swarm Host being the biggest example... It's just a horrible unit, it has no real utility in the game and yet they leave it as it is.
This of course is all my opinion, so take with a grain of salt. But I really can't see SC2 surviving, mostly because of Activision Blizzard.
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we have a bigger problem than blizzard support or mlg support to the scene , imo 2 years after LOTV the numbers will shrink even more . the main problem with sc2 is game design , to me its just inferior to bw in terms of spectating and entertainment , go look at the crowds in 2009-2010 osl or pro-league , in sc2 there is no chance to comeback , or at least its very slim , in bw supply didn't matter that much , it was much easier to def and stabilize than to attack head on . there is a reason why the numbers are not there anymore , ppl got sick of watching the game , its not tense matches all the way through the last min , its not big multiple battles that covers 5 screens at the same time , if ppl find enjoyment in the matches they will come back to watch more . give us BW hd for the multiplayer, and let blizz sell campaign dlc and some skins and custom games on the client.
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the 5. one was simply unnecessary and stupid that was a simple complaint about balance and you can t deny that terrans are doing rather well at the moment
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote:+ Show Spoiler +1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
Even if Blizz would answer you wouldn't get real "answers" just some PR shit. I will tell you what would Blizzard say.
1. We don't feel like as a company that games such as League of Legends or Dota2 and World of Tanks are a 'threat' to us. These games are completely different from our own, so we can't compare them, apples and oranges. Starcraft has a healthy scene and we have been doing everything since the very early stages of development to please the fans. So in a summary, Starcraft is great and the other games has nothing to do with us.
2. This matter has been discussed in our WCS team many times, we feel like that this is the nature of competition. The one better, stronger has to win and this is what we are trying to achieve. We would get the same amount of negative criticism if we would try to restrict Korean players. Probably not from the western scene rather the Korean.
3. We have discussed this matter. As of right now we can't share anything of our ideas with the community but expect answers in about 10-20 years, definitely soonTM.
4. Throughout the development of SC2 we've been making a lot of alterations to B.net and we will continue to do so. Expect features in Legacy of the Void.
5. Hello guys! I'm David Kim I wanted to personally answer this question as I'm the one who has created this beautifully balanced game all by myself. This is something we are monitoring and there could be patches in the future but we are uncertain right now. We will try to make alterations to bunker build because we feel like this is the biggest issue but other than that we feel like that in the highest level of competition (e.g. GM and Master league) the winrates for each race are 50-50% and this is not because of our Match Making system.
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lol I wake up to doom sayers all over both reddit and TL.
You guys realize that while SC2 optimism was all time high (probably before LoL came in to take the #1 esports popularity title), having 45k or whatever on a random middle-of-the-week-day for a Ro16 in SC2 was absolutely unheard of. You remember the Dreamhack with the MC-Whitera final? It had what, 60k-ish viewers? The year after with the highly famous Thorzain win over Polt? Maybe 70-75k or so? Hell even DH Bucharest last year which Nerchio won had a very lackluster like 40k (?) or so viewers. When the extremely hyped NASL season 1 came around? 15k-ish on a normal day maybe? Only to fall down to 5-10k or maybe even below 5k as hype dropped off following seasons.
Now we're getting 45k on a freaking random Ro16 at a bad time, DH events pull 100k+ the final day. So does WCS EU and say what you want about WCS AM but its way higher than what you'd get on any random NA tourny run on normal week days one or two years ago.
On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: SCII becoming less popular...
Yea, right.
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On August 09 2013 20:14 malaan wrote: It echoes what many who have already quit SC2 said : Blizzard does not care since they teamed up with Activision. Bobby Kotick cares about one thing: Money. All of the problems that the game has right now (including WCS) stems from this.
Blizzard can simply not compete with the giant communities of Dota 2 and LoL. It's less about the game and much more about the company practice. Riot and Valve take way better care of the community, voices get heard, the games get regular updates that reflect the views of everyone, not just a small in-house design team ran by David Kim.
If I'm being honest, I never enjoyed SC2 a fraction of what I enjoyed about BW, but there is no use crying over it since both games are pretty much dead - MLG dropping SC2 is one more hefty nail in the coffin (despite what some of the desperate pros are saying.) Gaming and esports moves along quickly. New games and new technology means things get old really fast, and since Blizzard are notoriously slow for fixing issues like balance, people get tired even faster. That is why so many players quit. I have not played a single game of SC2 since picking up Dota2 beta account last year. It's just more fun, I can play with friends, and the constant updates and novelties upheld by Valve makes SC2 look laughable.
This of course is all my opinion, so take with a grain of salt. But I really can't see SC2 surviving, mostly because of Activision Blizzard. Or it is because RTS games are just not popular.
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On August 09 2013 20:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:14 malaan wrote: It echoes what many who have already quit SC2 said : Blizzard does not care since they teamed up with Activision. Bobby Kotick cares about one thing: Money. All of the problems that the game has right now (including WCS) stems from this.
Blizzard can simply not compete with the giant communities of Dota 2 and LoL. It's less about the game and much more about the company practice. Riot and Valve take way better care of the community, voices get heard, the games get regular updates that reflect the views of everyone, not just a small in-house design team ran by David Kim.
If I'm being honest, I never enjoyed SC2 a fraction of what I enjoyed about BW, but there is no use crying over it since both games are pretty much dead - MLG dropping SC2 is one more hefty nail in the coffin (despite what some of the desperate pros are saying.) Gaming and esports moves along quickly. New games and new technology means things get old really fast, and since Blizzard are notoriously slow for fixing issues like balance, people get tired even faster. That is why so many players quit. I have not played a single game of SC2 since picking up Dota2 beta account last year. It's just more fun, I can play with friends, and the constant updates and novelties upheld by Valve makes SC2 look laughable.
This of course is all my opinion, so take with a grain of salt. But I really can't see SC2 surviving, mostly because of Activision Blizzard. Or it is because RTS games are just not popular. This is fact and most people who buy them do not play multi-player.
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On August 09 2013 20:05 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. Or they are just more fun to play? Ever thought of that possibility?
Fun? All my friends who play LoL complain about their teammates being dicks, ruining 50% of their games. Then there is also always the same shit: creepkilling --> small fights --> dragon --> big fights untill game over. I played LoL for more than a month, because I wanted to like, since everyone plays it. After a month I was just sick of it. SC2 on the other hand, I can play for 10 hours every day, and I'm still not tired of it. But okay, that's personal taste ofcourse.
It's just sad to see the RTS genre slowly dying (if you don't count moba as rts ofc).
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On August 09 2013 19:04 BillGates wrote: Blizzard are too brazen, too bravado and they have this delusion that they are still the best and screw everybody, they don't know shit.
They've forgotten that they need to compete and compete against better companies these days like Valve and Riot and others, they still think this is 10 years ago where absolutely everyone adored Blizzard, but they are not, with the pay to play WOW, with no LAN for SC2, with the restricted regions for SC2 for so long, with the always online requirement for Diablo 3, with the terrible story telling in their new games, to some of the voice acting decisions like to change Kerrigan's original voice actor, to not listening to the fans, they are very much disliked.
They are so out of reality, they are so out of touch and unless they wake up and realize what a bunch of pricks they've become, its going to go downhill for them.
I mean the community can always change games, can always come up with better games than Blizzard like it did with Dota and like it did with tower defenses and other types of maps.
Couldn't have said it better.
Although with the launch of HoTS at least the SC2 has been a lot better. They are more open than ever and David Kim and Dustin Browder posts even on EU forums which usually don't see any blue attention. Regardless of "we always read all forums" it's important to show that you are there which I think is improving.
But Blizzard as a company needs to get in competition mode again. No longer are they the king of the hill in game development. They have a fair amount of competitiors out there doing even better in some areas (I'm looking at the OP Dota2 Client created by Valve).
And now MLG is cutting SC2.
Well, that's a gg for ya Blizzard.
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On August 09 2013 18:58 mantequilla wrote:Well, I've started learning Dota
Me too, it's pretty good game after a few time.
Though it's sad, since I started with Starcraft and I want to continue playing it, but for some reasons (Swarm hosts, Broodlords, Colossus, Tempests, for example) I just don't feel really like playing it.
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On August 09 2013 20:19 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:05 DrPandaPhD wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. Or they are just more fun to play? Ever thought of that possibility? Fun? All my friends who play LoL complain about their teammates being dicks, ruining 50% of their games. Then there is also always the same shit: creepkilling --> small fights --> dragon --> big fights untill game over. I played LoL for more than a month, because I wanted to like, since everyone plays it. After a month I was just sick of it. SC2 on the other hand, I can play for 10 hours every day, and I'm still not tired of it. But okay, that's personal taste ofcourse. It's just sad to see the RTS genre slowly dying (if you don't count moba as rts ofc).
Commandandconquer f2p will save it. I'm sure. EA has always done what Blizzard couldn't!
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On August 09 2013 20:01 macncheezeplz wrote: Ah, I'm glad someone is striking at the heart of the issue instead of blaming production quality, other business, etc. After watching Starcraft 2 for 3 years, I started to realize how just how much this community is held back by the quality of the game. Sadly the only one that can make a difference is Blizzard, and I find it highly unlikely that will ever happen. They have one more shot with legacy of the void before Esports hangs on the hinges of Moba's. ...which is incredibly unfortunate. Agreed.
But I dont think current development team is anywhere near able to fix the game. Its almost like Blizzard made an effort to sabotage this game from the beggining with their unexplainable decisions: no chat channels, no clan support, no lan support, custom games implementation. And on top of that if i remember correctly there was even auto micro early in the development which alone shows you of the incompetence of Browder team.
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On August 09 2013 20:17 Kreb wrote:lol I wake up to doom sayers all over both reddit and TL. You guys realize that while SC2 optimism was all time high (probably before LoL came in to take the #1 esports popularity title), having 45k or whatever on a random middle-of-the-week-day for a Ro16 in SC2 was absolutely unheard of. You remember the Dreamhack with the MC-Whitera final? It had what, 60k-ish viewers? The year after with the highly famous Thorzain win over Polt? Maybe 70-75k or so? Hell even DH Bucharest last year which Nerchio won had a very lackluster like 40k (?) or so viewers. When the extremely hyped NASL season 1 came around? 15k-ish on a normal day maybe? Only to fall down to 5-10k or maybe even below 5k as hype dropped off following seasons. Now we're getting 45k on a freaking random Ro16 at a bad time, DH events pull 100k+ the final day. So does WCS EU and say what you want about WCS AM but its way higher than what you'd get on any random NA tourny run on normal week days. Yea, right. Pretty much this.
It isnt becoming less popular, it is just that other games have become MORE popular.
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On August 09 2013 20:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:59 Snowbear wrote:On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport! You kidding right? SC2 is perfect as a spectator sport. It's amazing to see the top sc2 players play. Watching good micro, multitasking, sick strategies etc... On the other hand LoL is boring as fuck to spectate: first you see some laning, then you see some teamfights where you think "wtf is happening", then the teamfight is over. SC2 > LoL as spectator sport IMO. SC2 is hard to understand if you are not playing/watching it. LoL too, but more people play LoL. I don't think either of them is a good spectator sport compared to the simiplicity of watching football. They won't ever exceed their player base in terms of viewer numbers.
Football (American and otherwise) are easy to understand because even if you don't know the rules you can see the skill.
"Runs fast" "Catches ball" "Good aim" Etc....
Those are invisible on a PC game.
Show someone in any century a video of a soccer player running his ass off and the guy will be impressed because running is hard no matter what century you come from. Show a guy from 1706 a video of LoL or SC2 and he will think the colours look pretty.
You need to appreciate gaming as a skill to enjoy an esport. You need to see being active as a skill to enjoy real sports.
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On August 09 2013 20:17 Kreb wrote:lol I wake up to doom sayers all over both reddit and TL. You guys realize that while SC2 optimism was all time high (probably before LoL came in to take the #1 esports popularity title), having 45k or whatever on a random middle-of-the-week-day for a Ro16 in SC2 was absolutely unheard of. You remember the Dreamhack with the MC-Whitera final? It had what, 60k-ish viewers? The year after with the highly famous Thorzain win over Polt? Maybe 70-75k or so? Hell even DH Bucharest last year which Nerchio won had a very lackluster like 40k (?) or so viewers. When the extremely hyped NASL season 1 came around? 15k-ish on a normal day maybe? Only to fall down to 5-10k or maybe even below 5k as hype dropped off following seasons. Now we're getting 45k on a freaking random Ro16 at a bad time, DH events pull 100k+ the final day. So does WCS EU and say what you want about WCS AM but its way higher than what you'd get on any random NA tourny run on normal week days. Yea, right.
With this attitude you are complete ruining the usual doomsday-mood. Don't listen to him the game is dead and in short time TL will be bought by amazon and selling books.
On a more serious note: I think it's very bad that Blizzard refuses to engage more with the progamers.
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On August 09 2013 18:50 Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:44 theking1 wrote:
2.regarding the wcs you are right but there will always be a vocal minority who says they want koreans and accuse you of racism otherwise.
In the majority of football leagues (i don't know about other games) there is a rule, that team has to have players from the country it plays in. For example in Ukraine, from 11 players - 4 have to be ukrainians. In Italy, Spain - only several players can be non-EU, in England you can receive permit for work, only if you got big percentage of games for your national football team, e.t.c. So you can play, if you for example korean, but slots are limited. True, but you can't do something like that specifically for "Korean" players, only for players from "outside the region". That would really suck for Chinese and SEA players. So if you'd do that you either have to give everyone their own region or make the rule so that it only restricts the amount of players who have their own region. This would still suck for players like Snute and Demuslim so yeah. Having all the matches played offline is another thing you can do but then you'll need the extra Chinese/ SEA region for sure. What about raising the price pool for the Korean region? I agree that something has to change, mostly for WCS America because the current situation over there really isn't healthy.
Edit: That said, I agree with the post above me in the sense that EU viewing numbers are very decent to say the least, It really is specifically the American region that is in trouble. But lets be honest here; If something was done to improve the interwebs connection between Korea and Europe I don't think that Europe will hold.
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On August 09 2013 19:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport! I find it more spectator friendly than dota2/LoL. I dont know/understand the mechanics of 100+ heroes. I understand the draft is important, but I dont understand the choices or possibilities. When a fight happens, I see healthbars go down and good teamwork but I dont understand any of it.
That's because you've played sc2 but haven't played lol/dota! The actual problem in my eyes, is that dota/lol is easier to get into, and thus get invested and wanting to watch the pros. sc2 is hard. I don't think that's a bad thing but it makes for a smaller community.
What sc2 DOES have going for it though is that when you stop playing sc2, watching it can still be enjoyable. I found that when I stopped playing dota2 I wasn't interested in watching it anymore, same with lol. But sc2 I still enjoy watching even though I don't play it much anymore.
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On August 09 2013 20:21 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:01 macncheezeplz wrote: Ah, I'm glad someone is striking at the heart of the issue instead of blaming production quality, other business, etc. After watching Starcraft 2 for 3 years, I started to realize how just how much this community is held back by the quality of the game. Sadly the only one that can make a difference is Blizzard, and I find it highly unlikely that will ever happen. They have one more shot with legacy of the void before Esports hangs on the hinges of Moba's. ...which is incredibly unfortunate. Agreed. But I dont think current development team is anywhere near able to fix the game. Its almost like Blizzard made an effort to sabotage this game from the beggining with their unexplainable decisions: no chat channels, no clan support, no lan support, custom games implementation. And on top of that if i remember correctly there was even auto micro early in the development which alone shows you of the incompetence of Browder team.
It's "sabotaged" because if it was perfect from the get go no one would buy the expansion packs.
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On August 09 2013 20:17 Kreb wrote:lol I wake up to doom sayers all over both reddit and TL. You guys realize that while SC2 optimism was all time high (probably before LoL came in to take the #1 esports popularity title), having 45k or whatever on a random middle-of-the-week-day for a Ro16 in SC2 was absolutely unheard of. You remember the Dreamhack with the MC-Whitera final? It had what, 60k-ish viewers? The year after with the highly famous Thorzain win over Polt? Maybe 70-75k or so? Hell even DH Bucharest last year which Nerchio won had a very lackluster like 40k (?) or so viewers. When the extremely hyped NASL season 1 came around? 15k-ish on a normal day maybe? Only to fall down to 5-10k or maybe even below 5k as hype dropped off following seasons. Now we're getting 45k on a freaking random Ro16 at a bad time, DH events pull 100k+ the final day. So does WCS EU and say what you want about WCS AM but its way higher than what you'd get on any random NA tourny run on normal week days. Yea, right.
Nobody said that SC2 hasn't grown. It did grow but when compared to other games it growed too little. The International 3 had like 150k players (not on a final day!).
We have to compare player bases with other games, because it directly affects us. It is only natural for tournament organizers to take up games with the bigger player/viewer base. MLG first removed SC2 from the main stage to put there LoL and now they aren't even planning to put it at all in the next one.
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On August 09 2013 20:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 20:14 malaan wrote: It echoes what many who have already quit SC2 said : Blizzard does not care since they teamed up with Activision. Bobby Kotick cares about one thing: Money. All of the problems that the game has right now (including WCS) stems from this.
Blizzard can simply not compete with the giant communities of Dota 2 and LoL. It's less about the game and much more about the company practice. Riot and Valve take way better care of the community, voices get heard, the games get regular updates that reflect the views of everyone, not just a small in-house design team ran by David Kim.
If I'm being honest, I never enjoyed SC2 a fraction of what I enjoyed about BW, but there is no use crying over it since both games are pretty much dead - MLG dropping SC2 is one more hefty nail in the coffin (despite what some of the desperate pros are saying.) Gaming and esports moves along quickly. New games and new technology means things get old really fast, and since Blizzard are notoriously slow for fixing issues like balance, people get tired even faster. That is why so many players quit. I have not played a single game of SC2 since picking up Dota2 beta account last year. It's just more fun, I can play with friends, and the constant updates and novelties upheld by Valve makes SC2 look laughable.
This of course is all my opinion, so take with a grain of salt. But I really can't see SC2 surviving, mostly because of Activision Blizzard. Or it is because RTS games are just not popular. This is fact and most people who buy them do not play multi-player.
Was just talking to a friend yesterday and he asked me whether I was still playing Starcraft. He only played the campaign, enjoyed it, and is now back to Guild Wars 2.
Teamgames... That's the one really big flaw that Starcraft has imo. Blizzard left the community on their own with coming up with Teamgames, and when they come up, they don't promote them. Desert Strike being #1 Arcade game for 2years sadly tells more about the Arcade support than the quality of DS. Imo, they should have made a ladder with Arcade maps a long time ago. Would be awesome to queue for the Arcade ladder with a friend and then play a game of Warships, or a game of Desert Strike, or the new community-contest winner mini-RPG.
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Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on?
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On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote: Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on? Never, we will rehash this discussion over and over.
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The main problem in my eyes is definitly the client and unit stats (supply and dps is way too high)
pretty nice thread pointed out almost everything i could think of.
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On August 09 2013 20:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:19 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2013 20:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 20:14 malaan wrote: It echoes what many who have already quit SC2 said : Blizzard does not care since they teamed up with Activision. Bobby Kotick cares about one thing: Money. All of the problems that the game has right now (including WCS) stems from this.
Blizzard can simply not compete with the giant communities of Dota 2 and LoL. It's less about the game and much more about the company practice. Riot and Valve take way better care of the community, voices get heard, the games get regular updates that reflect the views of everyone, not just a small in-house design team ran by David Kim.
If I'm being honest, I never enjoyed SC2 a fraction of what I enjoyed about BW, but there is no use crying over it since both games are pretty much dead - MLG dropping SC2 is one more hefty nail in the coffin (despite what some of the desperate pros are saying.) Gaming and esports moves along quickly. New games and new technology means things get old really fast, and since Blizzard are notoriously slow for fixing issues like balance, people get tired even faster. That is why so many players quit. I have not played a single game of SC2 since picking up Dota2 beta account last year. It's just more fun, I can play with friends, and the constant updates and novelties upheld by Valve makes SC2 look laughable.
This of course is all my opinion, so take with a grain of salt. But I really can't see SC2 surviving, mostly because of Activision Blizzard. Or it is because RTS games are just not popular. This is fact and most people who buy them do not play multi-player. Was just talking to a friend yesterday and he asked me whether I was still playing Starcraft. He only played the campaign, enjoyed it, and is now back to Guild Wars 2. Teamgames... That's the one really big flaw that Starcraft has imo. Blizzard left the community on their own with coming up with Teamgames, and when they come up, they don't promote them. Desert Strike being #1 Arcade game for 2years sadly tells more about the Arcade support than the quality of DS. Imo, they should have made a ladder with Arcade maps a long time ago. Would be awesome to queue for the Arcade ladder with a friend and then play a game of Warships, or a game of Desert Strike, or the new community-contest winner mini-RPG.
I guess you haven't seen the series they have done every week checking out and promoting different Arcade games on their webpage and youtube.
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As far as im aware the issue is a lack of transparency rather then lack of action.
Blizzard rather then allowing us to see what their doing (think glass window) essentially act as a black box spitting out paper with the results. We dont get to see what was done to come to the conclusions, all we get are terribly brief uninforming situation reports and interviews.
For all we know blizzard is going ape shit at trying to fix things, the problem they arent showing us it, all we see is the black box.
(Trying not to let rage bias-up my post)
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On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote: Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on? I dont even think it is that "hard", it just takes a different person/mindset to play it. I mean, obviously to play at the highest level it is hard... but every game is hard to try and play at "perfect" level.
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On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote: Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on?
Ohhh.... fuck you. Do you even hear yourelf? BW is much-much more mechanically demanding than SC2 ever was and will be (It's a fact TL don't ban me). BW was insanely popular in Korea (very hard game) and now everyone is a LoL fan, which is depending on TL's opinion an easy game. So please at least think before you'd write such a non-sense.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 09 2013 20:25 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport! I find it more spectator friendly than dota2/LoL. I dont know/understand the mechanics of 100+ heroes. I understand the draft is important, but I dont understand the choices or possibilities. When a fight happens, I see healthbars go down and good teamwork but I dont understand any of it. That's because you've played sc2 but haven't played lol/dota! The actual problem in my eyes, is that dota/lol is easier to get into, and thus get invested and wanting to watch the pros. sc2 is hard. I don't think that's a bad thing but it makes for a smaller community. What sc2 DOES have going for it though is that when you stop playing sc2, watching it can still be enjoyable. I found that when I stopped playing dota2 I wasn't interested in watching it anymore, same with lol. But sc2 I still enjoy watching even though I don't play it much anymore.
Dota and LoL are "easier to get into" because of parsed responsibility. You can say "I will only lean to center lane so when we lose top or bottom then it's not my fault" or you can jungle and gank all game getting the most kills on your team, but since you didn't support anyone when doing it your team loses and you think it's others fault"
RTS doesn't allow you to tunnel vision. Either you learn the total aspect of the game (early mid And late) or you die to "random stuff you never see"
It's daunting to most people having that kind of responsibility.
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SC2 has consistently had 24-28k players for years. Dota 2 has increased players from 100k to 400k in the last year alone. You can't expect to grow the scene when new people just don't want to play the game. As far as views go, what event does SC2 have that comes close to the near 600k peak that are watching The International 3 this week? I think people have failed to recognize that growing the number of players is key to increasing viewers.
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On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote: Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on? bw maby? lol.
a game out of 1998 had one of the finest balance and game disign created within 3 years which a game that has been in devolopment for double the time hasn't even graspt,. let alone that it even had a better client.
On August 09 2013 20:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:25 Clarity_nl wrote:On August 09 2013 19:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport! I find it more spectator friendly than dota2/LoL. I dont know/understand the mechanics of 100+ heroes. I understand the draft is important, but I dont understand the choices or possibilities. When a fight happens, I see healthbars go down and good teamwork but I dont understand any of it. That's because you've played sc2 but haven't played lol/dota! The actual problem in my eyes, is that dota/lol is easier to get into, and thus get invested and wanting to watch the pros. sc2 is hard. I don't think that's a bad thing but it makes for a smaller community. What sc2 DOES have going for it though is that when you stop playing sc2, watching it can still be enjoyable. I found that when I stopped playing dota2 I wasn't interested in watching it anymore, same with lol. But sc2 I still enjoy watching even though I don't play it much anymore. Dota and LoL are "easier to get into" because of parsed responsibility. You can say "I will only lean to center lane so when we lose top or bottom then it's not my fault" or you can jungle and gank all game getting the most kills on your team, but since you didn't support anyone when doing it your team loses and you think it's others fault" RTS doesn't allow you to tunnel vision. Either you learn the total aspect of the game (early mid And late) or you die to "random stuff you never see" It's daunting to most people having that kind of responsibility.
this sir, deserves tl+
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On August 09 2013 20:29 Tobblish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:26 Big J wrote:On August 09 2013 20:19 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2013 20:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 20:14 malaan wrote: It echoes what many who have already quit SC2 said : Blizzard does not care since they teamed up with Activision. Bobby Kotick cares about one thing: Money. All of the problems that the game has right now (including WCS) stems from this.
Blizzard can simply not compete with the giant communities of Dota 2 and LoL. It's less about the game and much more about the company practice. Riot and Valve take way better care of the community, voices get heard, the games get regular updates that reflect the views of everyone, not just a small in-house design team ran by David Kim.
If I'm being honest, I never enjoyed SC2 a fraction of what I enjoyed about BW, but there is no use crying over it since both games are pretty much dead - MLG dropping SC2 is one more hefty nail in the coffin (despite what some of the desperate pros are saying.) Gaming and esports moves along quickly. New games and new technology means things get old really fast, and since Blizzard are notoriously slow for fixing issues like balance, people get tired even faster. That is why so many players quit. I have not played a single game of SC2 since picking up Dota2 beta account last year. It's just more fun, I can play with friends, and the constant updates and novelties upheld by Valve makes SC2 look laughable.
This of course is all my opinion, so take with a grain of salt. But I really can't see SC2 surviving, mostly because of Activision Blizzard. Or it is because RTS games are just not popular. This is fact and most people who buy them do not play multi-player. Was just talking to a friend yesterday and he asked me whether I was still playing Starcraft. He only played the campaign, enjoyed it, and is now back to Guild Wars 2. Teamgames... That's the one really big flaw that Starcraft has imo. Blizzard left the community on their own with coming up with Teamgames, and when they come up, they don't promote them. Desert Strike being #1 Arcade game for 2years sadly tells more about the Arcade support than the quality of DS. Imo, they should have made a ladder with Arcade maps a long time ago. Would be awesome to queue for the Arcade ladder with a friend and then play a game of Warships, or a game of Desert Strike, or the new community-contest winner mini-RPG. I guess you haven't seen the series they have done every week checking out and promoting different Arcade games on their webpage and youtube.
I have seen it on their webpage. But I don't really care to read them. I don't think this is the kind of promotion that Arcade games need nor do I think it is a real effort to write some lines about some game, which will be probably outsourced to the mapcreator anyways. What they need is a good way to ensure players are playing the maps. And some competition. It's quite boring to play maps with someone when you know from his first moves that your team will lose, while it's also not interesting to pick up a new map when everybody who is playing it has superfancy stats while you are still reading the description what to do and how to play.
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On August 09 2013 20:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:25 Clarity_nl wrote:On August 09 2013 19:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport! I find it more spectator friendly than dota2/LoL. I dont know/understand the mechanics of 100+ heroes. I understand the draft is important, but I dont understand the choices or possibilities. When a fight happens, I see healthbars go down and good teamwork but I dont understand any of it. That's because you've played sc2 but haven't played lol/dota! The actual problem in my eyes, is that dota/lol is easier to get into, and thus get invested and wanting to watch the pros. sc2 is hard. I don't think that's a bad thing but it makes for a smaller community. What sc2 DOES have going for it though is that when you stop playing sc2, watching it can still be enjoyable. I found that when I stopped playing dota2 I wasn't interested in watching it anymore, same with lol. But sc2 I still enjoy watching even though I don't play it much anymore. Dota and LoL are "easier to get into" because of parsed responsibility. You can say "I will only lean to center lane so when we lose top or bottom then it's not my fault" or you can jungle and gank all game getting the most kills on your team, but since you didn't support anyone when doing it your team loses and you think it's others fault" RTS doesn't allow you to tunnel vision. Either you learn the total aspect of the game (early mid And late) or you die to "random stuff you never see" It's daunting to most people having that kind of responsibility. This is also true, but it also led to the worst community I have ever been in. The amount of abuse you can take in while new is absurd.
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I'm pretty sure you're presenting one-sided information by stating Blizzard just didn't listen.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
point # 2 and 3 are simply invalid
I am pretty sure WCS EU is not dominated by Koreans, and that's the region you play in, Strelok....
hell, you weren't even knocked out by a Korean player in WCS EU Challenger S1..
And as many region-locked tournaments have proven, people expected higher quality games, and without the higher caliber games, people just won't watch them. Now, if people don't care to watch them, who's gonna grow the scene?
It's a cruel world, and it's based on instant gratification. If an event can't satisfy the viewers, ie. high quality games, then who's gonna care that it has potential stars?
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I haven't read all the posts but I have to say: I believe WCS is a system meant to find the best players, not for a nationality to fight b nationality. and i think it does it 40/40
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On August 09 2013 20:31 Atlasy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote: Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on? Ohhh.... fuck you. Do you even hear yourelf? BW is much-much more mechanically demanding than SC2 ever was and will be (It's a fact TL don't ban me). BW was insanely popular in Korea (very hard game) and now everyone is a LoL fan, which is depending on TL's opinion an easy game. So please at least think before you'd write such a non-sense.
How popular was BW outside of Korea?
Was it in bars? Did it pack stages? 45k-60k viewers 12 hours a day? How was the foreign scene?
Did BW foreigners make more money? Did BW foreigners have better standard of living?
How popular was it outside of forums like TL?
Was day9 also on Forbes magazine? Was there a BW caster on FHM?
How popular was it?
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On August 09 2013 20:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:31 Atlasy wrote:On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote: Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on? Ohhh.... fuck you. Do you even hear yourelf? BW is much-much more mechanically demanding than SC2 ever was and will be (It's a fact TL don't ban me). BW was insanely popular in Korea (very hard game) and now everyone is a LoL fan, which is depending on TL's opinion an easy game. So please at least think before you'd write such a non-sense. How popular was BW outside of Korea? Was it in bars? Did it pack stages? 45k-60k viewers 12 hours a day? How was the foreign scene? Did BW foreigners make more money? Did BW foreigners have better standard of living? How popular was it outside of forums like TL? Was day9 also on Forbes magazine? Was there a BW caster on FHM? How popular was it? why is this relevant at all? he was pointing out the argument of X game is the hardest thus will never die is invalid.
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Sc2 ""declining"" (not sure what you even mean by this as sc2 viewership has stayed the same for over a year now) has nothing to do with how esports is handled. In computer games, you reach a peak and then you slowly decline until your game is dead. That's how it will be until the day when new computer games stop being made. If you think more people watch dota 2 than sc2 because there are 5 less terrans in GM than there should be then... get real.
Sc2 is the most popular ""hardcore"" game there is right now. Dota2 and LoL are great games but they are also FUN games. Teamgames. 99,9% of casual players don't come home after a hard day of work, wanting to relax, and starts playing 1on1 ladder in sc2. You can never compete with the player/viewerbase of these games, and you shouldn't. Chess doesn't compare itself to football. As long as chess can sustain itself, chess is fine.
And so is sc2.
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I would agree if it wasn't for the final question which kinds of decredibilize the whole letter. Remove that part and you'll get more support. It can seem as all the previous questions are here to legitimate the final "whine".
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On August 09 2013 20:40 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 09 2013 20:31 Atlasy wrote:On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote: Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on? Ohhh.... fuck you. Do you even hear yourelf? BW is much-much more mechanically demanding than SC2 ever was and will be (It's a fact TL don't ban me). BW was insanely popular in Korea (very hard game) and now everyone is a LoL fan, which is depending on TL's opinion an easy game. So please at least think before you'd write such a non-sense. How popular was BW outside of Korea? Was it in bars? Did it pack stages? 45k-60k viewers 12 hours a day? How was the foreign scene? Did BW foreigners make more money? Did BW foreigners have better standard of living? How popular was it outside of forums like TL? Was day9 also on Forbes magazine? Was there a BW caster on FHM? How popular was it? why is this relevant at all? he was pointing out the argument of X game is the hardest thus will never die is invalid.
I thought he was saying that BW was popular in Korea and was harder than sc2 and hence you can't make the argument that difficulty of the product correlates with its popularity.
If I misread I'm sorry.
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Canada16217 Posts
On August 09 2013 20:31 Atlasy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote: Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on? Ohhh.... fuck you. Do you even hear yourelf? BW is much-much more mechanically demanding than SC2 ever was and will be (It's a fact TL don't ban me). BW was insanely popular in Korea (very hard game) and now everyone is a LoL fan, which is depending on TL's opinion an easy game. So please at least think before you'd write such a non-sense. User was temp banned for this post. He said "one of the hardest" not "the hardest"
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I played both LoL and SC2 at a relatively high level( Diamond I in LoL and GM in SC2) and I can assure that saying SC2 is a 'harder' game is a completely wrong assumption. SC2 relies more on individual skill, decision making while LoL, while mechanically simpler, focuses A LOT more on teamplay. They're very different games together and comparing them is like comparing soccer to tennis.
The reason SC2 has been popular at all is because of how big BW was. SC2 by itself is an okay RTS at best, and the problem is the SC2 team was/is too arrogant to make use of any features that made BW the legendary game it was. SC2 overly simplifies macro/micro mechanics, messed up the pathing and destroyed all the core features which made the races what they were. It is alienating to new players and everything about it just seems lazy and poorly designed(battle.net with no chat channels on release, units with terrible design like Colossi..).
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On August 09 2013 20:56 MassacrisM wrote: I played both LoL and SC2 at a relatively high level( Diamond I in LoL and GM in SC2) and I can assure that saying SC2 is a 'harder' game is a completely wrong assumption. SC2 relies more on individual skill, decision making while LoL, while mechanically simpler, focuses A LOT more on teamplay. They're very different games together and comparing them is like comparing soccer to tennis.
The reason SC2 has been popular at all is because of how big BW was. SC2 by itself is an okay RTS at best, and the problem is the SC2 team was/is too arrogant to make use of any features that made BW the legendary game it was. SC2 overly simplifies macro/micro mechanics, messed up the pathing and destroyed all the core features which made the races what they were. It is alienating to new players and everything about it just seems lazy and poorly designed(battle.net with no chat channels on release, units with terrible design like Colossi..).
I sure hope LoL focuses A LOT more on teamplay since you play Sc2 alone...
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Usually people who make these threads gets banned and thread closed.
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I sure hope LoL focuses A LOT more on teamplay since you play Sc2 alone
This as in no matter how good you are as 1, you can't really carry if your teammates are terrible/trolls. What you need to do is ping objectives, tell them what to do and such. It's more 'leadership' kinda thing rather than teamplay.
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On August 09 2013 20:56 MassacrisM wrote: I played both LoL and SC2 at a relatively high level( Diamond I in LoL and GM in SC2) and I can assure that saying SC2 is a 'harder' game is a completely wrong assumption. SC2 relies more on individual skill, decision making while LoL, while mechanically simpler, focuses A LOT more on teamplay. They're very different games together and comparing them is like comparing soccer to tennis.
The reason SC2 has been popular at all is because of how big BW was. SC2 by itself is an okay RTS at best, and the problem is the SC2 team was/is too arrogant to make use of any features that made BW the legendary game it was. SC2 overly simplifies macro/micro mechanics, messed up the pathing and destroyed all the core features which made the races what they were. It is alienating to new players and everything about it just seems lazy and poorly designed(battle.net with no chat channels on release, units with terrible design like Colossi..).
LoL and Dota are huge *exactly* because they're mechanically easier to play.
If LoL was as mechanically demanding as SC2/BW it would not be as big as it is today.
They're both strategically difficult at a high enough level. But you're allowed to be mechanically lazy in. mOBA game and still win by being carried by the other 4 players but you can't be mechanically lazy in an RTS.
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On August 09 2013 20:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 09 2013 20:25 Clarity_nl wrote:On August 09 2013 19:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport! I find it more spectator friendly than dota2/LoL. I dont know/understand the mechanics of 100+ heroes. I understand the draft is important, but I dont understand the choices or possibilities. When a fight happens, I see healthbars go down and good teamwork but I dont understand any of it. That's because you've played sc2 but haven't played lol/dota! The actual problem in my eyes, is that dota/lol is easier to get into, and thus get invested and wanting to watch the pros. sc2 is hard. I don't think that's a bad thing but it makes for a smaller community. What sc2 DOES have going for it though is that when you stop playing sc2, watching it can still be enjoyable. I found that when I stopped playing dota2 I wasn't interested in watching it anymore, same with lol. But sc2 I still enjoy watching even though I don't play it much anymore. Dota and LoL are "easier to get into" because of parsed responsibility. You can say "I will only lean to center lane so when we lose top or bottom then it's not my fault" or you can jungle and gank all game getting the most kills on your team, but since you didn't support anyone when doing it your team loses and you think it's others fault" RTS doesn't allow you to tunnel vision. Either you learn the total aspect of the game (early mid And late) or you die to "random stuff you never see" It's daunting to most people having that kind of responsibility. This is also true, but it also led to the worst community I have ever been in. The amount of abuse you can take in while new is absurd.
That's just the nature of teamgames, people with low self esteem and anonymity. Has nothing to do with how league or dota is made or how it plays.
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Russian Federation80 Posts
One important thing worth mentioning:
When you are commenting or reading such topics, imagine the perspective of professional StarCraft players. For professionals like Strelok the stakes are insanely big. If we will talk about Strelok particulary, this guy dedicated almost 10 years of his life to that game. Holy shit, that's absolutely insane, I can't imagine how miserable he feels after not getting a single response from game developers. I agree, sometimes people are whinig a bit, but damn, I am pretty sure that person who played this game competitavly almost 10 years knows what he is talking about.
Also don't forget that situation in Russia or Ukraine is absolutely different from US or Europe. Players from US can earn enough money for living simply from good exposure (Streams/Shows/Tournaments e.t.c) In CIS countries there is no such possibility. And situation is getting even worse because Dota always was almost a national sport in this countries, and with Dota 2 release everyone playing Dota 2, no one cares about StarCraft anymore.
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On August 09 2013 20:56 MassacrisM wrote: I played both LoL and SC2 at a relatively high level( Diamond I in LoL and GM in SC2) and I can assure that saying SC2 is a 'harder' game is a completely wrong assumption. SC2 relies more on individual skill, decision making while LoL, while mechanically simpler, focuses A LOT more on teamplay. They're very different games together and comparing them is like comparing soccer to tennis.
The reason SC2 has been popular at all is because of how big BW was. SC2 by itself is an okay RTS at best, and the problem is the SC2 team was/is too arrogant to make use of any features that made BW the legendary game it was. SC2 overly simplifies macro/micro mechanics, messed up the pathing and destroyed all the core features which made the races what they were. It is alienating to new players and everything about it just seems lazy and poorly designed(battle.net with no chat channels on release, units with terrible design like Colossi..).
You contradict yourself, on the one hand you talk about how Dota and LoL are more successful than SC nowadays because they are mechanically simpler, on the other hand you say that SC2 is bad because it isn't as mechanically hard as SC:BW was.
Also, you talk about how SC2 is such a mediocre game and poorly designed, yet you take part in a discussion which is pretty long and ranty, when I'm sure you could use your time better by investing it into games that you think are good.
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Remember who we are dealing with here...the people who thought Carriers and Seige Tanks should be effectively replaced by Void-rays and Widow-mines and Reavers and Lurkers should be removed from the game altogether.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
what the hell is the last point...
keep balance / community- esports development discussions seperate please
it simply takes time to properly balance a game, but we are making progress in the right direction imo
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On August 09 2013 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote: what the hell is the last point...
keep balance / community- esports development discussions seperate please
it simply takes time to properly balance a game, but we are making progress in the right direction imo
can t even tell you how much i agree with you on that point
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strelok tryin to be sneaky
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Balance has an effect on viewing. It really hurt the viewing scene when in the end of wol there were so many zvzs. It is important to have a decent balance of races to keep interest of viewer.
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You contradict yourself, on the one hand you talk about how Dota and LoL are more successful than SC nowadays because they are mechanically simpler, on the other hand you say that SC2 is bad because it isn't as mechanically hard as SC:BW was.
Also, you talk about SC2 is such a mediocre game and poorly designed, yet you take part in a discussion which is pretty long and ranty, when I'm sure you could use your time better by investing your time into games that you think are good.
Simplifying mechanics in SC2 is just 1 of many things that broke the game. SC2 is in a very weird place where it is neither mechanically demanding enough to make a difference at top level, where there's just so little room to mechanically outplay your opponent now, nor it is mechanically simple enough to attract new players. I'm sure if the individual skill cap in SC2 is anywhere near as high as it was in BW Flash would've been destroying everyone by now.
SC2 is a mediocre game and that's why it's been declining rapidly with the rise of other clearly more successful games, and I do spend a lot more time on those other games now. I guess I'm just taking part in this because I pity the supposed successor for the biggest eSports game of all time, which had so much potential but its developers managed to fuck it up purely due to their ginormous ego.
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On August 09 2013 21:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:56 MassacrisM wrote: I played both LoL and SC2 at a relatively high level( Diamond I in LoL and GM in SC2) and I can assure that saying SC2 is a 'harder' game is a completely wrong assumption. SC2 relies more on individual skill, decision making while LoL, while mechanically simpler, focuses A LOT more on teamplay. They're very different games together and comparing them is like comparing soccer to tennis.
The reason SC2 has been popular at all is because of how big BW was. SC2 by itself is an okay RTS at best, and the problem is the SC2 team was/is too arrogant to make use of any features that made BW the legendary game it was. SC2 overly simplifies macro/micro mechanics, messed up the pathing and destroyed all the core features which made the races what they were. It is alienating to new players and everything about it just seems lazy and poorly designed(battle.net with no chat channels on release, units with terrible design like Colossi..).
LoL and Dota are huge *exactly* because they're mechanically easier to play. If LoL was as mechanically demanding as SC2/BW it would not be as big as it is today. They're both strategically difficult at a high enough level. But you're allowed to be mechanically lazy in. mOBA game and still win by being carried by the other 4 players but you can't be mechanically lazy in an RTS.
This is not true at all. Mechanical skill plays a massive role in MOBA games and I'd wager that they are more demanding than SC2. Factors such as mouse precision and timing have a large influence while other factors such as APM play a less crucial role. Watching Burning land every single creep kill for 10 minutes straight is more impressive to me than watching someone pull off a 4 gate. Its been seen time and time again, SC2 pros try to play MOBA games thinking their "superior mechanics" are going to instantly put them at the top and the reality is they don't. In a competitive games (both teams being evenly matched) theres no room to be "mechanically lazy" that kinda shows you don't watch/play DotA/LoL that avidly because thats so false. Being mechanically lazy is going to lose the game for your team just as it would in SC2.
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On August 09 2013 21:18 Rescawen wrote: Balance has an effect on viewing. It really hurt the viewing scene when in the end of wol there were so many zvzs. It is important to have a decent balance of races to keep interest of viewer.
Lets do what LoL does the . Introduce 100+ races, Change their design every few months, and give them only 4 buttons to play with.
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On August 09 2013 20:09 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:01 coyote37 wrote: Is it possible to pass Starcraft 2 in Free to Play? imo F2P = more players = more viewers on streams event = more money for organisers = everybody happy no?
=hackers get a new free account everytime they get banned. (not that blizzard is trying that hard on the hacking department)
IF they were to make it f2p then they would most likely have it 1 account per ip and also having seperate mmr for each race thus making it so theres is absolutely no reason to have an alternate account. It would also resolve maphacking aswell because if your banned once then you cant play under your account enlisted under your ip again.
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On August 09 2013 18:58 mantequilla wrote:Well, I've started learning Dota
same, it's a lot of fun.
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I think StarCraft is losing popularity because its not a team-game like strelok pointed out (dota2, wol, lol) as a comparison of popularity. I can't name other 1v1 games on top of my head that are this successful.. or any for that matter..
Though you can play 2v2 up to 4v4,( just like you can go 1v1 in d2 etc), the main focus and is 1v1.
When I make a big play in dota2 I tell it to my friends, or they see it in the game, because we play together or you'll watch it on youtube, because the move is simply fking awesome..
In sc2 tho.. its nothing like that. The big plays aren't nearly as beautiful in description and while almost all my friends play at least a little dota2, no one plays starcraft.
Arcade needs a revamp tho I feel like. Unless its primetime, getting players together for the non top10 most played UMS's is freaking hard.
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On August 09 2013 21:21 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 21:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 09 2013 20:56 MassacrisM wrote: I played both LoL and SC2 at a relatively high level( Diamond I in LoL and GM in SC2) and I can assure that saying SC2 is a 'harder' game is a completely wrong assumption. SC2 relies more on individual skill, decision making while LoL, while mechanically simpler, focuses A LOT more on teamplay. They're very different games together and comparing them is like comparing soccer to tennis.
The reason SC2 has been popular at all is because of how big BW was. SC2 by itself is an okay RTS at best, and the problem is the SC2 team was/is too arrogant to make use of any features that made BW the legendary game it was. SC2 overly simplifies macro/micro mechanics, messed up the pathing and destroyed all the core features which made the races what they were. It is alienating to new players and everything about it just seems lazy and poorly designed(battle.net with no chat channels on release, units with terrible design like Colossi..).
LoL and Dota are huge *exactly* because they're mechanically easier to play. If LoL was as mechanically demanding as SC2/BW it would not be as big as it is today. They're both strategically difficult at a high enough level. But you're allowed to be mechanically lazy in. mOBA game and still win by being carried by the other 4 players but you can't be mechanically lazy in an RTS. This is not true at all. Mechanical skill plays a massive role in MOBA games and I'd wager that they are more demanding than SC2. Factors such as mouse precision and timing have a large influence while other factors such as APM play a less crucial role. Watching Burning land every single creep kill for 10 minutes straight is more impressive to me than watching someone pull off a 4 gate. Its been seen time and time again, SC2 pros try to play MOBA games thinking their "superior mechanics" are going to instantly put them at the top and the reality is they don't. In a competitive games (both teams being evenly matched) theres no room to be "mechanically lazy" that kinda shows you don't watch/play DotA/LoL that avidly because thats so false. Being mechanically lazy is going to lose the game for your team just as it would in SC2.
Yes, being lazy in either game causes you to lose.
Both have their mechanical difficulties. One game can still lead to wins if you get carried by your team, the other game has no fallback. You're either better with your mechanics in SC2 or you lose.
MOBA games gets players tunnel vision where they do their thing and forget to play as a team and when they lose they blame the other players for their loss. This leads to bad mechanics because if you only lose because your allies are terribly why would you push yourself?
And no, I don't find righ clicking on a low hitpoints ai that doesn't retreat an impressive mechanical feat. It's about as boring as watching 2010 PvP.
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agreed on the korean quarterfinals. i love watching osl/gsl, dont take me wrong. but i dont want 8/8 in na/eu.
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On August 09 2013 19:19 Kurbz wrote: it's the same as diablo 3, they don't want to listen to anyone's opinions but their own even while claiming otherwise. I honestly think the game needs major design changes (dont get me wrong I love sc2) and has needed them since the beginning.
I just couldnt get into SC2 at all no matter how hard I tried and felt the game is not as good as BW. I expected at the very least to be on par with BW but ppl responding with "give it time it will get better" doesnt made me feel too optimistic considering Blizzard post WoW track record and the game design in general that has been the same from the start. Played though the campaigns of WOL and HOTS, a couple of multiplayer games and thats about it for SC2 for me.
After the abomination of BW/SC2 hybrid proleague I was done with BW/SC2 and completely switched to Dota 2 after i watched TI2 and have no regrets.
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On August 09 2013 21:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 21:18 Rescawen wrote: Balance has an effect on viewing. It really hurt the viewing scene when in the end of wol there were so many zvzs. It is important to have a decent balance of races to keep interest of viewer. Lets do what LoL does the . Introduce 100+ races, Change their design every few months, and give them only 4 buttons to play with. I'd actually try this game but it would not be the traditional RTS anymore
The problem with SC2 is it has limited options compared to the "maintream" ARTS/MOBA/AoS games due to the fact that there are only three races to choose from with a handful of units.
One idea that I have thought of is to have some sort of custom technology trees for each race such as having Spectres instead of Ghosts in the SC2 campaign or the "Factions" mechanic of C&C3 Tiberium Wars/Kane's Wrath. Of course, this is to be balanced. It doesn't seem to be the primary solution of the stagnating Starcraft franchise but it opens up a lot of options.
On August 09 2013 21:29 Thieving Magpie wrote: And no, I don't find righ clicking on a low hitpoints ai that doesn't retreat an impressive mechanical feat. It's about as boring as watching 2010 PvP.
Getting last hits on creeps is not supposed to be entertaining to watch. It's like the equivalent of APM spamming or making Sim Cities in Starcraft. Not exactly comparable but it's a small game mechanic that separates a good player from an average one.
On August 09 2013 20:01 coyote37 wrote: Is it possible to pass Starcraft 2 in Free to Play? imo F2P = more players = more viewers on streams event = more money for organisers = everybody happy no?
During my time helping out in developing Philippine Esports, we got a chance to have a "casual talk" with a Blizzard employee. When the topic of F2P brought up, his reply was simply, "Not gonna happen".
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On August 09 2013 21:27 Rickyvalle21 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:09 Hryul wrote:On August 09 2013 20:01 coyote37 wrote: Is it possible to pass Starcraft 2 in Free to Play? imo F2P = more players = more viewers on streams event = more money for organisers = everybody happy no?
=hackers get a new free account everytime they get banned. (not that blizzard is trying that hard on the hacking department) IF they were to make it f2p then they would most likely have it 1 account per ip and also having seperate mmr for each race thus making it so theres is absolutely no reason to have an alternate account. It would also resolve maphacking aswell because if your banned once then you cant play under your account enlisted under your ip again.
not everyone has a fixed ip.... also how about shared ips like pc bangs?
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Perhaps the reason for the decline of Starcraft is not in the balance necessarily but the general neglect and greed of blizzard. I mean the speed at which they alter and improve is insanely slow. Lying to their customers about upcoming features and improvements such as the name change service which they just band-aid constantly. If you take a look at their changes in HOTS they're making a pathetic watered down attempt at implementing skins, portraits, and more artistically customizable features. This was extremely weak making it only available as a bonus to purchasing the deluxe edition. Greed is going to lead to their ultimate failure. Just waiting...
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On August 09 2013 21:30 ZenDeX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 21:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 09 2013 21:18 Rescawen wrote: Balance has an effect on viewing. It really hurt the viewing scene when in the end of wol there were so many zvzs. It is important to have a decent balance of races to keep interest of viewer. Lets do what LoL does the . Introduce 100+ races, Change their design every few months, and give them only 4 buttons to play with. I'd actually try this game but it would not be the traditional RTS anymore The problem with SC2 is it has limited options compared to the "maintream" ARTS/MOBA/AoS games due to the fact that there are only three races to choose from with a handful of units. One idea that I have thought of is to have some sort of custom technology trees for each race such as having Spectres instead of Ghosts in the SC2 campaign or the "Factions" mechanic of C&C3 Tiberium Wars/Kane's Wrath. Of course, this is to be balanced. It doesn't seem to be the primary solution of the stagnating Starcraft franchise but it opens up a lot of options. Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 21:29 Thieving Magpie wrote: And no, I don't find righ clicking on a low hitpoints ai that doesn't retreat an impressive mechanical feat. It's about as boring as watching 2010 PvP.
Getting last hits on creeps is not supposed to be entertaining to watch. It's like the equivalent of APM spamming or making Sim Cities in Starcraft. Not exactly comparable but it's a small game mechanic that separates a good player from an average one. they said they want to don't have any unit that are to similair and basicly serve no purpose anymore becouse some other unit has taken it already.
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On August 09 2013 21:28 gosublade wrote: I think StarCraft is losing popularity because its not a team-game like strelok pointed out (dota2, wol, lol) as a comparison of popularity. I can't name other 1v1 games on top of my head that are this successful.. or any for that matter..
Though you can play 2v2 up to 4v4,( just like you can go 1v1 in d2 etc), the main focus and is 1v1.
When I make a big play in dota2 I tell it to my friends, or they see it in the game, because we play together or you'll watch it on youtube, because the move is simply fking awesome..
In sc2 tho.. its nothing like that. The big plays aren't nearly as beautiful in description and while almost all my friends play at least a little dota2, no one plays starcraft.
Arcade needs a revamp tho I feel like. Unless its primetime, getting players together for the non top10 most played UMS's is freaking hard.
What bugs me about the arcade scene in SC2 is that all the games are better designed, more complex, and more beautiful than BW's custom games. Aeon of strife has nothing on the SC2 variant, for example. And nexus wars is MUCH more dynamic than lurker defense. And yet, I miss playing BW custom games.
Now I don't really miss it. I've tried logging into battlenet 1.0 many times this year alone and find the scene terrible and the games physically rigid to play.
What I miss is the lack of disconnect. When I played aeon of strife or lurker defense or mtg, etc... It felt like playing with BW units with different stats and win conditions. When I play nexus wars or whatever, it feels like I'm playing a well made free to play game that oddly looks like Starcraft units.
When I played with the orange vultures of lurker defense, those vultures were as clunky and annoying to use as actual vultures. Because of that it always felt I was playing a Starcraft game. Star jewel is absolutely magnificent, but it doesn't feel like a Starcraft game. It feels like an amazing flash game with sc2 graphics.
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Wow blizzard wow.. As an indie dev.. I've even emailed Tim cook himself and he has replied to me..
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On August 09 2013 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote: what the hell is the last point...
keep balance / community- esports development discussions seperate please
it simply takes time to properly balance a game, but we are making progress in the right direction imo
I don't talk about balance. I say that there is something wrong with mechanics of terran, so that too little terran can actually meet the demands. That is why thons of terrans stopped playing already. Many friends of mine for example. It's about changing mechanics and priorities, not about balance in general.
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I don't mean to offense you strelok, but terran is doing great those days, you should just learn to play bio instead of mech, you are playing only half of your race ... and you said it yourself, a lot of terran retired when zerg was dominating (ok, it was OP ^^) so now they are in smaller number in GML.
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i don't get nearly as much time to play games anymore. and 10/10 times i will play dota, simply because the client is more developed in every single way, better community systems, has cosmetics, has in game spectator, has a better network system (can talk to a magnitude of people).
sc2 is lagging in so many ways and blizzard addresses them in an archaic manner
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
Your post is obviously biased. SC2 can't compete with LoL, which has a much larger playerbase for now reasons. The devs of World of Tanks are actually paying money to host tournaments, and Dota again has more players because it's a MOBA. You can't compare Sc2 with those games, simple as that.
As for the updates for the game interface, they will most likely keep them for LotV. They've been releasing new features only with a new expansion for years (see WoW), so I don't expect anything new until then.
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On August 09 2013 21:44 SenorChang wrote: i don't get nearly as much time to play games anymore. and 10/10 times i will play dota, simply because the client is more developed in every single way, better community systems, has cosmetics, has in game spectator, has a better network system (can talk to a magnitude of people).
sc2 is lagging in so many ways and blizzard addresses them in an archaic manner
Now that I live with my fiancé, the only games I play now have to be ones I can pause so that she can interrupt me at any time without leading to her seeming bothersome/me seeming dismissive.
Since I can't pause ladder I can't really play sc2 like I used to.
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people stating that sc2 should go f2p. you have to remember that LOL and dota are low requirement games while sc2 requires a decent pc. my shitty laptop for instance could handle league and dota but sc2 went to 10 fps as soon as 2 units spawn. so if sc2 would go f2p it would still not be as succesfull as league or dota.
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Is it really getting less popular, or just other games are getting 'more' popular ?.. because those two are very much different. imo the growth of sc2 has been stagnant in the past few months but not really on a decline.
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On August 09 2013 21:44 Kinon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
Your post is obviously biased. SC2 can't compete with LoL, which has a much larger playerbase for now reasons. The devs of World of Tanks are actually paying money to host tournaments, and Dota again has more players because it's a MOBA. You can't compare Sc2 with those games, simple as that.
Technically, what matters is market share and not product similarity. If your demographic votes for the other guy you lose the campaign no matter how unsimilar you are to them.
For example, smart phones will never replace PCs. No amount of gimmicky touch screen will ever outperform the same technology minus size restrictions. However, people who would buy PCs are spending their money I smart phones instead and so PC companies are trying to "fight back" the loss of sales (windows 8 is a perfect example of this).
It's not that they need to be a better game; they just need the demographic.
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On August 09 2013 21:52 shin_toss wrote: Is it really getting less popular, or just other games are getting 'more' popular ?.. because those two are very much different. imo the growth of sc2 has been stagnant in the past few months but not really on a decline. SC2 appears to have the same number of viewers as always. People are just freaking out because Dota 2 is having their Super Bowl and MGL decided that they only wanted carry games that paid them. Its pretty standard for the SC2 community, complain about the game and development while being filled with envy at all the other people in other communities who just have fun.
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On August 09 2013 21:41 Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote: what the hell is the last point...
keep balance / community- esports development discussions seperate please
it simply takes time to properly balance a game, but we are making progress in the right direction imo I don't talk about balance. I say that there is something wrong with mechanics of terran, so that too little terran can actually meet the demands. That is why thons of terrans stopped playing already. Many friends of mine for example. It's about changing mechanics and priorities, not about balance in general.
Agree terran without a doubt is mechanically the most difficult. That is the reason why for example innovation can do things in tvz that others cant. What about making z and p mechanics harder. For example taking away hotkeying eggs and having to select and chain warp gates into a pylon everytime you warp in.
Maybe making a version of sc2 to lower leagues with easier mechanics, be nice for new comers.
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After getting into dota, following the big upswing that game and community has had the last year or two is pretty amazing. The most amazing part is seeing how valve always pleases the community! Even small things like changing/adding features in the game/when spectating/guild systems and so on, super fast. I feel like Blizzard is being pressured now, more then ever. Yes, you can argue that riot has pressured blizzard for a long time, but with the recent dota2 popularity, blizzard should feel the pressure even more. I've always been a blizzard fan boy, even with things like diablo3 disaster. But now, I'm not so sure anymore, they need to step it up.
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Saying that Riot is pressuring Blizzard is like saying Linux is pressuring Windows.
The problem is that blizzard makes 80% of its profit from WoW and hence WoW has 80% of their energy/support.
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On August 09 2013 21:57 blae000 wrote: After getting into dota, following the big upswing that game and community has had the last year or two is pretty amazing. The most amazing part is seeing how valve always pleases the community! Even small things like changing/adding features in the game/when spectating/guild systems and so on, super fast. I feel like Blizzard is being pressured now, more then ever. Yes, you can argue that riot has pressured blizzard for a long time, but with the recent dota2 popularity, blizzard should feel the pressure even more. I've always been a blizzard fan boy, even with things like diablo3 disaster. But now, I'm not so sure anymore, they need to step it up. I would also point out that Valve does stuff the community hates and they bitch about all the time(reporting, muting, no ladder). The key is that Valve doesn't listen to the community and has a clear vision of what they want DotA 2 to be. Blizzard should do the same and stop listening to the every whim of the community, but focus on a clear vision of what will make the game better.
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL? I am obviously no Blizzard guy, but I think SC2 does not have to compete with games of that magntitude. SC2 is a realtime strategy game, which is not as attractive as other genres.
On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II? WCS has not 8 Koreans in top-8 of each region yet.
Enabling a region lock creates other issues. While the current situation is not ideal, it could be worse. For example with region lock but greater prize pool in korea: Blizzard gets the heat for not supporting foreign regions. Region lock and same prizes: Blizzard puts an additional barrier to hard-working Koreans.
WCS is more for showing the best players, less for building new talents.
On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then? Again, a trade-off. With no big tournament, there are only some lesser tournaments to watch, with no clear story line to follow. With a big tournament and a unified story line, smaller tournaments suffer. I would rather criticize the sloppy creation of WCS, leaving many things to wish for, as the dominance of the WCS. Though I agree that WCS should leave some off-weeks inbetween seasons. But then, the WCS players want to get airtime, so the off-time cannot be too long.
On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors? Because on the ladder you have to prove that you can play versus any race. If one wants to practice, he needs a practice partner for custom games. Ladder is mostly for the non-pro players.
On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then? Race distribution goes up and down. While currently the time for terrans are bleak, it was not always so and better days for terrans will come again.
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a slew of Zerg players are retiring... i dont know, but I would like to see FREE to play SC2 with pay skins and customization in game #1 thing.
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sorry i quit sc2, 2 gm's in AM terran gone =(
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People here are misinterpreting point 5. It's not about "LOL TERRAN UP", it's about the fact that Terran has been underplayed for years now. Yes, if you look at major tournaments Terran seems to have been doing fine due to 1 to 3 strong Korean Terrans that are capable of winning things in any given period regardless of short term balance. However, if you look at GM numbers, Terran is very consistently underplayed and if you look at smaller non-premier tournaments, cups, zotacs, etc, it's pretty sad much less Terran wins. Now, again, this does NOT prove Terran is "UP" in general, but it certainly shows that something is not right on the non-Korean side of the curve.
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On August 09 2013 22:21 tredogz wrote: a slew of Zerg players are retiring... i dont know, but I would like to see FREE to play SC2 with pay skins and customization in game #1 thing. You can already play freely, with one race and a limited map pool. Do you really want to say many skins ingame? That would distract me. And if it could be turned off, there is not so much incentive to purchase a customization.
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On August 09 2013 20:22 HerrHorst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:17 Kreb wrote:lol I wake up to doom sayers all over both reddit and TL. You guys realize that while SC2 optimism was all time high (probably before LoL came in to take the #1 esports popularity title), having 45k or whatever on a random middle-of-the-week-day for a Ro16 in SC2 was absolutely unheard of. You remember the Dreamhack with the MC-Whitera final? It had what, 60k-ish viewers? The year after with the highly famous Thorzain win over Polt? Maybe 70-75k or so? Hell even DH Bucharest last year which Nerchio won had a very lackluster like 40k (?) or so viewers. When the extremely hyped NASL season 1 came around? 15k-ish on a normal day maybe? Only to fall down to 5-10k or maybe even below 5k as hype dropped off following seasons. Now we're getting 45k on a freaking random Ro16 at a bad time, DH events pull 100k+ the final day. So does WCS EU and say what you want about WCS AM but its way higher than what you'd get on any random NA tourny run on normal week days. On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: SCII becoming less popular... Yea, right. With this attitude you are complete ruining the usual doomsday-mood. Don't listen to him the game is dead and in short time TL will be bought by amazon and selling books. On a more serious note: I think it's very bad that Blizzard refuses to engage more with the progamers. They did in the past, but the problem is that, like everyone here, they're biased as hell. Icefrog can get away with progamer feedback because, in Dota, everyone plays everything, but the devs don't have that kind of luxury in SC2.
They also can't really ask the community for feedback(though they've done a good job of it so far in HotS), because the vast majority of it is just "Make Brood War."
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This is the whiniest thread I've seen in a while
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there are foreigners playing for badminton teams in China, similar thing for local hong kong football club. not an issue at all. rather, the prize pool for those region should be adjusted accordingly, not just an easy way to get into the finals
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On August 09 2013 20:19 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:05 DrPandaPhD wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. Or they are just more fun to play? Ever thought of that possibility? Fun? All my friends who play LoL complain about their teammates being dicks, ruining 50% of their games. Then there is also always the same shit: creepkilling --> small fights --> dragon --> big fights untill game over. I played LoL for more than a month, because I wanted to like, since everyone plays it. After a month I was just sick of it. SC2 on the other hand, I can play for 10 hours every day, and I'm still not tired of it. But okay, that's personal taste ofcourse. It's just sad to see the RTS genre slowly dying (if you don't count moba as rts ofc). Not interested in responding to all this "sc2 is dying" crap, since those who enjoy rts-ses will always stay.
But really, all of you calling MOBA's bad, you just didn't take any effort to understand the game. For someone who tries, and learns, it will be an extremely rewarding experience. Especially if you actually have friends to play with. If it's not your thing, fine, but there's no need to be sour like all you dota-haters and post super simplified versions of how the game goes:
"clicking creeps->teamfights where no one understands->teamfight is over->win->ez game no strategy lololol"
MOBA Haters: So your inability to get good at the game makes the game bad? I'll suppress my love for sc2 a bit and post this to show you how stupid it is
SC2 SUMMARY: "make workers->make base->two deathballs clash into each other->one deathball is destroyed->win->ez game no strategy lololol"
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A little late to the thread but here is my personal perspective on things.
SC2 as it currently stands cannot stand up to MOBAs. That's just going to be a fact. It is a pay-to-play RTS. It is harder and it is not free.
I still identify myself as an SC2 player. I still lead my CSL team and I watch every tournament when I can. But I've just stopped playing. Instead I've started playing a MOBA (Smite, for anyone that has heard of it). So do 2 of my former SC2er friends. It is just straight up easier and because of that I relax when I play. It was the same thing a while back when I played Sotis (sc2 custom game that I stopped playing when it got terrible). I can play it with my friends and have a very good time (and the game is much better suited to this than SC2 is). I don't follow the scene at all, but I like playing the game. Compared to SC2 it is more fun for the time (and the money - it's free).
Now imagine if I hadn't played any games before and I had to decide now which one to devote time to. Obviously it'd be smite.
I had a conversation with my friend who was a SC2er turned LoLer. We agreed on the same thing - SC2 took more skill, but LoL had the potential to be wilder. More things going on. SC2 is still limited by the fact that it is 1v1 and is limited by the abilities of 1 human. With LoL there is constant action, and we all know how SC2 has turned mostly into a big fight at the end (with exceptions of course).
So that is where the appeal is. And imo simply put, SC2 cannot both retain its status as a premier rts AND make itself accessible to newbies. The free to play + lan would help, but in the end LoL is easier. We play games for fun. And SC2 gets stressful. The unranked queue was a great idea to help this but no matter what in a MOBA the work is split amongst 5 people.
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Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful.
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valve just implements lots of cool stuff into the game like ingame tournament viewing or the compendium. they keep the players interested with new stuff while blizzard releases a new expansion every 3 years. if there were any dota2 tournaments in the netherlands i would have already switched by now.
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On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful.
This post is so much true and explains why sc2 is built up wrong from the very beggining. Not to mention some design failures like forcefields, collosus or warp in.
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Not much of a question, I just wish they will not do a WCS 2014. Or atleast model it according to The International and not LCS. As is, aside from Europe, it did not help SC2, but its crippling it in general.
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On August 09 2013 23:10 Sithril wrote: Not much of a question, I just wish they will not do a WCS 2014. Or atleast model it according to The International and not LCS. As is, aside from Europe, it did not help SC2, but its crippling it in general. So you want no SC2 events except for Dreamhack, IEM and HSC for 2014 outside of Korea?
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On August 09 2013 23:09 Marjosz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. This post is so much true and explains why sc2 is built up wrong from the very beggining. Not to mention some design failures like forcefields, collosus or warp in.
you just hate protoss don't you
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Everyone should go try starbow on EU arcade, it's the game sc2 should have been.
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this thread is made of tears
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There was a problem when Blizzard didn't pick up Dota. They just thought it was another mod that was going to die out. They were too proud to think that a user made map could be successful. Can you imagine in 2008 if Blizzard had hired Icefrog? No lol no dota2. They would rule the competitive gaming market. But they just don't care and refuse to ever admit a mistake.
Instead we still don't have PvP in diablo3 because blizzard decided we would not have fun playing it. Let us decide.
But this is blizzard and they only do it the blizzard way. People have been pointing out problems for years and nothing ever gets done about it.
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Blizzard/Activision is a billion dollar company, why don't you have a full team that bans accounts of obvious maphackers 24/7? Why don't you see that your anti-cheat protection isn't working at all. People are really leaving this game because of this bullshit every day. Your "Warden" system isn't helpful at all in this matter.
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On August 09 2013 23:14 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:09 Marjosz wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. This post is so much true and explains why sc2 is built up wrong from the very beggining. Not to mention some design failures like forcefields, collosus or warp in. you just hate protoss don't you
i just hate terrible design of it. compare it to bw.
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Ok you win. GG BO > One battle > GG, and often even before battle has even finished, way too common and extremely anticlimactic to the viewers. Pro have a much deeper understanding of the game than the average fans, so a pro's "logical GG" is a "WTF GG?" in the eyes of the average viewers.
What a screw up! Come backs are near impossible in the pro level (hence the instant GGs). Even when they do occur, they are more of opponent's fuck up than the winner's merits - a feeling that's often echoed by the caster and viewers after a come back.
You have 2 options, A move in or R move away. Anti micro skills are eye sores to viewers after the 9000th time seeing it. "concussive shells" "zealot charge" "FF" "fungal"
Can you name the special ones? "Micro" and "Macro" are no longer being cheered by the casters as a player's strength because there are too little difference between the pros these days, it's all about "army composition" (aka BO).
Everything look fine from up here. A lot of fans and Blizzard seems to agree that SC2 is fine in it's current state and there is no need to "save" anything. Even though the WJS(maybe STX) coach made a heart-felt warning regarding saving SC-esport right at the beginning of the PL finals.
Food for thoughts + Show Spoiler +Where are all those awesome battle reports for SC2?
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On August 09 2013 23:14 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:09 Marjosz wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. This post is so much true and explains why sc2 is built up wrong from the very beggining. Not to mention some design failures like forcefields, collosus or warp in. you just hate protoss don't you More like he just like copy and pasting the same "design" complaints made by other people, who copied them from other people. Its one step above a meme.
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Balance in SC2 is very difficult to implement. 3 races have totally different style of play, and game mechanics.
1.In the begin WOL terran were dominating when zerg and protoss could not find a counter-strategies and used their units badly Of course it was obvious that the Terrans were stronger and Blizzard released patches every month. The Protoss and Zerg were able to go out in the late stage of the game. But in the end of the WOL we do not see release for balance patches, but dominance of the zerg on the terran was huge. [I hope that the lack of patches, it was a commercial move before Blizzard released the HOTS, to sell more copies of games]
2. With the release of HOTS history, compared with WOL, repeats itself - T> P, T> Z [I Terran, so it is difficult to evaluate other match ups], but the early HOTS much balancing than the early WOL. Experience has shown that a balance is achieved basically not patches but time. It will take at least 4 months to make small changes, and more than 1 year for big changes. [I hope that Blizzard ignores most complaints PRO players, based on the experience of 1, and not because they do not care on SC2 Community]
Terran - the easiest race to learn with a small potential of power units, small number of development options (BO). Conclusion: You can not change the balance too early. It should do only when it is too noticeable for small and large, online and LAN tournaments, for a minimum of 2 months.
But the balance is not currently the main problem of SC2. I fully agree with the "Strelok", the game is losing popularity because of the strong competition with DOTA 2, LoL, etc. Main profit of professional players - sponsorship team or tournament. Sponsor is focused on greater number of viewers. Comparing statistics from the site” twitch”, for LoL are watching at least 10 times more viewers. Starcraft 2 has already started to die. In the future, sponsors will not want to work for a smaller audience.
In final there will remain a maximum of 20 European pro players, the rest of the Koreans, who will fight with each other in major (mini) tournaments, but there will not be small for a smaller audience.
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Step aside SC, dota2 has entered the building.
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Have any of the professional gamers of SC2 ever thought about starting a players association, much like the NHLPA (National Hockey League Players Association)? If I was a pro gamer in the SC2 scene atm, I'd be definitely be concerned. SC2 is probably not going down the path that many of the end times prophets are preaching but it definitely can't be good. Pro players and casters have done so much for Blizzard, and Blizzard have given some back, but it can't compare to the connection that Valve and Riot have with their pro's and fan base. It seems that the ones that are going to suffer the most are the ones making their living of SC2 and that are not at the top of the ladder (no pun intended).
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I'm with you that SC2 is having troubles of balancing atm, but is not the T who is disappearing from the pro scene is the Z, 1 Z 1 T 6 P WCS EU, 4T 2P 2Z on wcs Korea and 3T 3P 2Z on WCS america. And the problem with the ZvT is what all people knows, the widow mine, no pro zerg wants to go macro games against T or, at least, what I've been watching on latest TvZ on differents WCS, with that unit that just doesn't need micro or anything you just make the Z can use the only thin he has, mobility so, in normal case scenario, or the T makes big mistakes on a macro game or the Z goes rush to try to win the game (WCS season 1 finals Soulkey vs Innovation 3 roach baneling bust and in the last game Innovation shackes and makes a ton of mistakes giving full medivacs for free to Soulkey and eventually loses the game). On ZvP the problem are the voidray you need sick micro to be able to kill this unit so you go to the next phase of op play, you turtle like a shit with spores, sh and vipers and try to win the game, the result is evident for 99% of the players: boring games to watch and to play (I'm zerg player and I hate to watch or to play this but is the only way you can bit a P or, you can make an all in and good luck rolling the dices!) I'll would like to watch the win rates atm on this momment, the last thing David Kim said is he wants to change the zerg... I'm really scary, not for normal random players but for the pro scene, but he refuses to see that Z is under the other 2 races atm and he saids that on the last dreamhack was a ZvZ final, which is true, but no good players for T, only lucifron, and no good P players except for Stardust, and big guns for Z players, Stephano, Hyun, JD... so the finals should be ZvZ just by names. I'm sure 90% of T saids that's they have problems with storms and EMP sucks... well, if you think a bit better, Z doesn't even has EMP so the only thing they can do is to get out the umbrella and watch it rain! cause if T players thinks that Storms doesn't hurt to a zerg player you can ask to poor little hydras and lings... and I don't think Storm is that op, you must hit with it at least...
I don't like to watch lol or dota streams... I pref hon stream that are much fun that the 2 games before, but personal preference, but don't worry David Kim doesn't listen, he just stands somewhere and he said that game is balanced meanwhile his little child plays T, it was fun to hear the comentarys of the WCS am from wednesday... why do you think T must be op? answers 1) Cause Humanity must win 2)Cause if not no one would play them and I don't remmember the third option but was something like the 2 before.
Sincerely I just prefered the old bw, much more skill needed, the game was much more balanced and you needed big micro/macro plays to win the games, now is just max your army go big fight and who wins wins the game, except on TvZ where the Z player wins battles muta/lings against bio but banelings goes out so there supplies doesn't go to far away and then the T wins a battle and snowball bio incomming to zerg base and kills everything on his way.
Hope someway somehow David Kim can see what community wants to say him... balance the fucking game for once! and no more units of 1A move and win!, like bio, colossus, ultras, thors etc...
P.D: Forgot to say about the koreans on NA and EU... I'm with you guys, they should be limited places for koreans on EU & NA
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On August 09 2013 23:52 UltraTotoro wrote: Starcraft forever
I'm with you 100%
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On August 09 2013 23:14 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:09 Marjosz wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. This post is so much true and explains why sc2 is built up wrong from the very beggining. Not to mention some design failures like forcefields, collosus or warp in. you just hate protoss don't you
Post is very spot on(as you'd expect from a high level player). Of all the times Blizzard did listen I wish it wasn't on trying to make every game a macro game. I think SC2 was setup to be a faster paced, quicker game, that sometimes ended in 5 minutes and sometimes went on for 30 or 40. But it felt like - from the map sizes, to the mechanics - that the idea was fast paced exciting play where action was early and often. However people didn't like that, players didn't like dying to "cheese" and viewers claimed the games weren't fun to watch. We want macro games everyone said. I think this is why some of the mechanics like MBS were in place because you were expected to use more actions early and often in the game and needed to compensate in other areas for that.
However Blizzard got weak, and the game went to bigger maps, units were nerfed/tweaked, easier to defend 3rd bases, and I think they did all this before people really understood the economics and supply features that were put in place. This game is really made to be played on 1-2 bases much longer because your economy is pretty good on 2 bases. Now this is where we are at, big clumps of armies running into each other.
Blizzard wanted to make a totally new RTS, while the fans wanted BW part 2. What we got was this hybrid that isn't really as good as BW.. but isn't a totally different game with a new personality and features. We just got watered down versions of both put together.
I've really enjoyed SC2 and do like playing it, especially team games, but the motivation to watch is getting pretty thin. We just see to much of the same thing over and over and over.
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Might be a whiny post, fueling a large amount of bitches who are just on the forums to whine.. i just can't help but agree after watching even a few games of TI3 and how much support the dota2 client gives to the game
there are SO many things blizzard have just flat out failed to do right, ever since the beginning, and now the alternatives in competitive gaming are so well supported and so easy to get into that sc2 is just not that interesting the casuals anymore
Starcraft is standing completely still
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On August 09 2013 23:23 Marjosz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:14 gobbledydook wrote:On August 09 2013 23:09 Marjosz wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. This post is so much true and explains why sc2 is built up wrong from the very beggining. Not to mention some design failures like forcefields, collosus or warp in. you just hate protoss don't you i just hate terrible design of it. compare it to bw.
T is not the only race is still producing like bw, the Z too, the only "little" difference between T & Z on sc2 and broodwar is the reactors and the queen. For the rest i'm 100% with you too just max armies against max armies and gg wp
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its not about balance , its about the game design itself , the basics the units and the ability and the spell casters , time and time again ppl pointed it out,
there are 2 kinds of ppl who watches sc2 right now : 1-old bw guys , who just love rts, trying to justify to themselves that the game is gonna get better , is gonna get to BW lvl "just wait till LOTV" they say .
2-new comers and young ppl who came from wc3 and some new rts games , that found starcraft lore and gameplay superior to other games , and they see it as the best rts of all time,
those the guys who get in the way of ppl pointing out game design issues , overall basics of the game flow, spectating the game became so boring , supply decides everything , and an early advantage snowballs easy , there is zero or very slim defenders advantage.
if blizz continue like this with lotv , the game will be dead (imo) .
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Honestly Blizz just need to keep the scene alive till Lotv and they are satisfied. It was a fun ride and hopefully a company will create a fun F2P RTS in the future, until then I'll just occasionally enjoy what we have right now and go back to playing Age of Empires.
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This has been stated by Destiny over 9 MONTHS AGO
This is nothing new. Blizzard doesn't care, blizzard won't care. They will bow out of the esport business soon enough seeing as LoL and DOTA 2 are in an enormous lead. They do not have the time or resources to allocate into Starcraft 2 esports. They are pretty much doing it because of its long time legacy.
link to destinys thread below + Show Spoiler +http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/
I love this game to death, but shit, why does blizzard have to want to kill it.
Im tired of people of saying "lets wait till next expansion"
HOW ABOUT RIGHT FUKING NOW
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On August 10 2013 00:11 Eggi wrote:This has been stated by Destiny over 9 MONTHS AGO This is nothing new. Blizzard doesn't care, blizzard won't care. They will bow out of the esport business soon enough seeing as LoL and DOTA 2 are in an enormous lead. They do not have the time or resources to allocate into Starcraft 2 esports. They are pretty much doing it because of its long time legacy. link to destinys thread below + Show Spoiler +http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/ Get out. There are major events running every day with high level players from each region. Go back to reddit with this crap, they will eat it up.
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On August 10 2013 00:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:11 Eggi wrote:This has been stated by Destiny over 9 MONTHS AGO This is nothing new. Blizzard doesn't care, blizzard won't care. They will bow out of the esport business soon enough seeing as LoL and DOTA 2 are in an enormous lead. They do not have the time or resources to allocate into Starcraft 2 esports. They are pretty much doing it because of its long time legacy. link to destinys thread below + Show Spoiler +http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/ Get out. There are major events running every day with high level players from each region. Go back to reddit with this crap, they will eat it up.
there is "running" and "running well"
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On August 10 2013 00:21 Eggi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:13 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 00:11 Eggi wrote:This has been stated by Destiny over 9 MONTHS AGO This is nothing new. Blizzard doesn't care, blizzard won't care. They will bow out of the esport business soon enough seeing as LoL and DOTA 2 are in an enormous lead. They do not have the time or resources to allocate into Starcraft 2 esports. They are pretty much doing it because of its long time legacy. link to destinys thread below + Show Spoiler +http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/ Get out. There are major events running every day with high level players from each region. Go back to reddit with this crap, they will eat it up. there is "running" and "running well" As I said: get out. Your post is unless and serves no purpose. You are just stiring up shit because you can and you are bored in the middle of the day.
P.S. there is a WCS out by Blizzard today for Iphone and Andriod. Its pretty bad ass and I would recommend it.
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On August 10 2013 00:21 Eggi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:13 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 00:11 Eggi wrote:This has been stated by Destiny over 9 MONTHS AGO This is nothing new. Blizzard doesn't care, blizzard won't care. They will bow out of the esport business soon enough seeing as LoL and DOTA 2 are in an enormous lead. They do not have the time or resources to allocate into Starcraft 2 esports. They are pretty much doing it because of its long time legacy. link to destinys thread below + Show Spoiler +http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/ Get out. There are major events running every day with high level players from each region. Go back to reddit with this crap, they will eat it up. there is "running" and "running well"
There is also "running amazingly". Which is what we are talking about when looking at WCS viewer numbers.
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On August 10 2013 00:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:21 Eggi wrote:On August 10 2013 00:13 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 00:11 Eggi wrote:This has been stated by Destiny over 9 MONTHS AGO This is nothing new. Blizzard doesn't care, blizzard won't care. They will bow out of the esport business soon enough seeing as LoL and DOTA 2 are in an enormous lead. They do not have the time or resources to allocate into Starcraft 2 esports. They are pretty much doing it because of its long time legacy. link to destinys thread below + Show Spoiler +http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/ Get out. There are major events running every day with high level players from each region. Go back to reddit with this crap, they will eat it up. there is "running" and "running well" As I said: get out. Your post is unless and serves no purpose. You are just stiring up shit because you can and you are bored in the middle of the day. P.S. there is a WCS out by Blizzard today for Iphone and Andriod. Its pretty bad ass and I would recommend it.
You don't have to agree with this pal, neither do it. But it's not your role to tell people who should and should not post here.
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On August 10 2013 00:25 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:23 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 00:21 Eggi wrote:On August 10 2013 00:13 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 00:11 Eggi wrote:This has been stated by Destiny over 9 MONTHS AGO This is nothing new. Blizzard doesn't care, blizzard won't care. They will bow out of the esport business soon enough seeing as LoL and DOTA 2 are in an enormous lead. They do not have the time or resources to allocate into Starcraft 2 esports. They are pretty much doing it because of its long time legacy. link to destinys thread below + Show Spoiler +http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/ Get out. There are major events running every day with high level players from each region. Go back to reddit with this crap, they will eat it up. there is "running" and "running well" As I said: get out. Your post is unless and serves no purpose. You are just stiring up shit because you can and you are bored in the middle of the day. P.S. there is a WCS out by Blizzard today for Iphone and Andriod. Its pretty bad ass and I would recommend it. You don't have to agree with this pal, neither do it. But it's not your role to tell people who should and should not post here. I am just staying my opinion on his post. There is nothing wrong with that. I truely think it is useless shit stiring and he is only here to cause drama. I truely believe we would be better off if he took this shit to reddit. If he didn't want a response, he shouldn't have posted.
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you also cut out of my qoute where i said "i love this game to death"
awesome, doesnt want drama, creates own drama
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We are already well into the first expansion and many of the problems that existed in WOL are still there in HOTS. The thing is I don't think Blizzard cares/realizes how bad their game is compared to their previous releases.
Like everybody said SC2 is STILL a lonely game. It's very difficult to meet people on Battle.net playing SC2 because of the very lonely interface. What made SC:BW great was that every time I logged in the chat interface was the main part. Not some small little dialog box but the entire screen was mostly chat related panels. I meet so many people online with SC:BW, I haven't made a single one playing SC2 online.
Blizzard really dampened the custom map scene. They probably don't think so but they did. First of all the WC3/SC:BW custom map interface was much better than the SC2. It simply just listed an open games list. This way new maps can get exposure giving map makers an incentive to make them. Now with how the games are organized only top maps get played all the time which leads to a stagnation of great maps. Right now there's Nexus Wars/Desert Strike/Monobattles, those are the big three and I haven't seen much quality maps out there. Blizzard also thought they were being clever with their ridiculously complicated map editor. Well now only a small percentage of people with a programming background can attempt to make a decent map with that thing.
1v1 game design is still not very good. Protoss in my opinion needs an overhaul big time. Warpgate, Colossus, Forcefields all lead to gimicky, all-in, or deathball style of play. Balance will always be discussed till end of the time for an RTS but game design is still very questionable to a lot of people and we're already in first expansion!
Blizzard has one last chance with LOTV, if they don't do some MAJOR fixing the Starcraft series, just like the Diablo series, will lose all the luster it once had.
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The chat channel and game room argument again. You guys do realize that even if blizzard adds these features tomorrow, sc2 won't magically become popular. Lol is still way more popular than dota2 (don't get fooled by ti3's number) without most awesome features from dota2. The most fundamental is that the game needs to be fun to play for a greater amount of people. And this is not the case due to sc2's nature and the taste of today's gamer (don't get me wrong, it's fun to play for me and many people). They are good features to have but it can only boost the game's popularity in the margin.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
Blizzard is sadly out of touch with the reality of modern competitive games, they behave like they have no competition whatsoever.
Leaving game design aside, their online model had been obsolete since the beginning. No reconnects, no proper observing system (observers potentially lagging games), no Dota TV-like broadcasts, obvious maphack vulnerabilities. All those small (and not so small, in case of hacks) things really add up. If I feel too tired to play Dota I can still start the game and watch my friends play, or observe high-level matchmaking games being played live. How cool is that? But all you can really do in Starcraft is play on ladder. How much time and community outrage did it take them to add chat channels, or the "watch replay together" button?
I honestly think they should just revamp the whole online portion of the game, both Battle.net and network subsystem of the client, in order to keep the game alive. But that is simply not Blizzard style. Maybe they will be able to do that for Warcraft IV?
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On August 10 2013 00:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:25 Cele wrote:On August 10 2013 00:23 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 00:21 Eggi wrote:On August 10 2013 00:13 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 00:11 Eggi wrote:This has been stated by Destiny over 9 MONTHS AGO This is nothing new. Blizzard doesn't care, blizzard won't care. They will bow out of the esport business soon enough seeing as LoL and DOTA 2 are in an enormous lead. They do not have the time or resources to allocate into Starcraft 2 esports. They are pretty much doing it because of its long time legacy. link to destinys thread below + Show Spoiler +http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/ Get out. There are major events running every day with high level players from each region. Go back to reddit with this crap, they will eat it up. there is "running" and "running well" As I said: get out. Your post is unless and serves no purpose. You are just stiring up shit because you can and you are bored in the middle of the day. P.S. there is a WCS out by Blizzard today for Iphone and Andriod. Its pretty bad ass and I would recommend it. You don't have to agree with this pal, neither do it. But it's not your role to tell people who should and should not post here. I am just staying my opinion on his post. There is nothing wrong with that. I truely think it is useless shit stiring and he is only here to cause drama. I truely believe we would be better off if he took this shit to reddit. If he didn't want a response, he shouldn't have posted.
i have to disagree. I myself have been called beeing "poisonous to the community" a couple of times, when i just wanted to apply constructive criticism/ express my opionion. I think it's a bad call if you just want to make people should up. Of course people posting shit because they are bored is a problem, but shutting them up in this way won't better the siatuation.
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Blizzard is just not the same company it once was.The last Blizzard game I really enjoyed was original World of Warcraft. Later they turned WoW into a cash-cow and they've been doing it with their games ever since. Diablo 3 was a huge disappointment. Blizzard were once gamers who made games for other gamers. Now they just care about profit.
I can't comment on LoL, since I never played that game, but Dota 2 is an incredible example of what a company with clear vision can make out of a game. I haven't played Dota 2 in couple of months. The other day I log in and there has been a dozen additions to the game. This keeps the game interesting, something that SC2 is sorely missing. Valve has done an amazing job with their game. Just look at Gabe Newell's interviews! Guy is so enthusiastic about Dota 2. Plus, it helps that lead game developer is Icefrog, the guy who developed Dota for free for 5-6 years.
Also, to all the elitists thinking that SC2 is incredibly difficult, while Dota is easy... The game only has a steep entry point. It's kind of like those old Nintendo / SNES games where there are dozen of enemies on the screen, missiles are flying from everywhere and the game control are so bad that you can't move an inch without dying. Are those games hard? Yes, but for all the wrong reasons. Now, SC2 obviously doesn't have bad controls, but same analogy can be applied. The game is just too unforgiving for casuals. Go for macro opening while your opponent goes for cheese? Sorry, you lose. Go for wrong army composition? Sorry, you lose. Casual players won't waste their time on frustrating 5 minute games. Especially not if they have to pay 100 bucks for it. Dota is free and has some great options for new players (tutorials, heroes having their roles listed, recommended items, cool stuff is being constantly added, etc).
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On August 10 2013 00:33 larse wrote: The chat channel and game room argument again. You guys do realize that even if blizzard adds these features tomorrow, sc2 won't magically become popular. Lol is still way more popular than dota2 (don't get fooled by ti3's number) without most awesome features from dota2. The most fundamental is that the game needs to be fun to play for a greater amount of people. And this is not the case due to sc2's nature and the taste of today's gamer (don't get me wrong, it's fun to play for me and many people). They are good features to have but it can only boost the game's popularity in the margin. Who cares whether SC2 is more popular than whatever other game.
The chat channel situation is probably the biggest issue this game has. It's asocial. This has a huge negative influence on creative initiatives and on the fun people have in game. Nothing is more important. It won't change anything overnight, but if it doesn't happen, things will never improve.
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On August 10 2013 00:41 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:33 larse wrote: The chat channel and game room argument again. You guys do realize that even if blizzard adds these features tomorrow, sc2 won't magically become popular. Lol is still way more popular than dota2 (don't get fooled by ti3's number) without most awesome features from dota2. The most fundamental is that the game needs to be fun to play for a greater amount of people. And this is not the case due to sc2's nature and the taste of today's gamer (don't get me wrong, it's fun to play for me and many people). They are good features to have but it can only boost the game's popularity in the margin. Who cares whether SC2 is more popular than whatever other game. The chat channel situation is probably the biggest issue this game has. It's asocial. This has a huge negative influence on creative initiatives and on the fun people have in game. Nothing is more important. It won't change anything overnight, but if it doesn't happen, things will never improve.
The whole strelok's article is about Why sc2 is not popular.......
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Really hate the mindset of this post. I can understand where it's coming from, but I still feel strongly negative about it.
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I think the biggest difference between Blizz and the rest is this: They are in it for the money. This is not inherently bad(at least for Ferengis which they clearly are) but it means that content can suffer(hows Diablo 3 holding up?) I really like Gabe's mindset after watching him talk a bit about Dota and corporate structure. He realizes that if you care about the game and the community the money will follow from your effort. Imagine if Blizzard was focused on building a sport, which Valve and Riot(so I hear and see with numbers) clearly are doing well (at least currently), instead of making money. Corporations work best when they are working to meet the needs of the consumer. Corporations will still work if they are working to make money and meet the needs of the consumer as a byproduct. WHen I bought WOL, that should have been my one purchase to them and it should have come with all of the expansions. Why? BEcause the expansions didnt really add a whole new game they added a couple new units, cause I really dont care about the single player honestly and what little I have played of both are just ok, THis is not worth buying a full priced game basically as an expansion. This is minor and a quibble because I can afford it, and to my ever lasting shame I bought, at full price, HOTS. I will not buy LOV.
I really hate to use the cliche but: they held onto that butterfly to tightly when it was first hatched and not its wings are mangled and barely functioning. They have flown this far, but I am not sure how much farther they can fly. I also think that having WCS during the International is both stupid and childish. It seems they are but hurt about losing the DOTA IP and wanted to hurt them so there is a chance, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, for Blizzards All Stars to take off. Blizzard has quickly been eclipsed as sees this and is starting to panic.
I just want to end this rant with this: I loved SC and SC BW. I was not into the pro scenes of either but still played the shit out of them with friends and family. I really loved WOL and was hoping that Blizz was just a little rusty after being stuck in the WOW hole for so long. But that rust never wore off. And to quote the coolest cat ever "This deal is getting worse all the time." But just like the movie Blizzard's general response has been "Pray that I do not alter it any further"
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On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful.
If I remember hearing correctly, Blizzard designed the game to be played on a lower speed setting. First battle report for reference: Battle Report # 1
I agree with all of your statements and think that the easy fix is to slow the speed down. This will encourage early/mid game play (players will have more real time in these phases of the game), it will alleviate some of the dps issues (by definition, dps will go down), and it will take some of the randomness out of the game (players will have more time to scout and react). The last and probably the most important change that slowing the game down would bring is it will make the game much more accessible and less stressful to newcomers.
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Moba games for me, are so boring to watch and it's a spamm fest of kiddy spells and powers!
This is my view on this, please don't get upset, i understand if people like it but i can't stand it.
I also think that many things need to be done: - Blizzard should stop asking money for organizations that want to run events - Blizzars should make WCS region locked not nationality locked, i mean only people that live in that region could eventually participate, that way we can have in a couple of years a full broadcast offline like GSL and OSL - More dialogue beetween blizzard, teams and pro players - more spreading of seasons to allow more tournaments
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On August 10 2013 00:43 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:41 Passion wrote:On August 10 2013 00:33 larse wrote: The chat channel and game room argument again. You guys do realize that even if blizzard adds these features tomorrow, sc2 won't magically become popular. Lol is still way more popular than dota2 (don't get fooled by ti3's number) without most awesome features from dota2. The most fundamental is that the game needs to be fun to play for a greater amount of people. And this is not the case due to sc2's nature and the taste of today's gamer (don't get me wrong, it's fun to play for me and many people). They are good features to have but it can only boost the game's popularity in the margin. Who cares whether SC2 is more popular than whatever other game. The chat channel situation is probably the biggest issue this game has. It's asocial. This has a huge negative influence on creative initiatives and on the fun people have in game. Nothing is more important. It won't change anything overnight, but if it doesn't happen, things will never improve. The whole strelok's article is about Why sc2 is not popular....... Yes. Not why it's less popular than game X. Thank you for your support.
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Is Dustin Browder still in charge of the game? Have not heard anything from him since HOTS came out.
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i think the best and simplest solution for WCS and it has been said many times before is simple to have region open only to the residents of that region so Koreans can play WCS EU but they will have to move to an EU country to do so
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Breaking news
Scott Smith @SirScoots 5m
BREAKING: Sources close to SSNN report that Red Bull has been granted a SC2 license for the same dates @MLG requested. They asked first
Looks like this real reason has nothing to do with SC2 being popular, but has to do with two companies fighting over covering it.
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On August 10 2013 00:49 Plansix wrote:Breaking news Show nested quote +Scott Smith @SirScoots 5m
BREAKING: Sources close to SSNN report that Red Bull has been granted a SC2 license for the same dates @MLG requested. They asked first Looks like this real reason has nothing to do with SC2 being popular, but has to do with two companies fighting over covering it.
Haha :D, amazing. We are so scared that our game is dying, but at the same time 2 companies are fighting for a sc2 tournament. SC2 ftw :D!
After reading some good comments in this thread, I think we can conclude that LoL and dota are growing, but HOTS is definitely not decreasing in popularity (it's even more popular than WOL). For it's genre sc2 is doing extremely well.
But, this doesn't change the fact that BNET 2.0 has to go, asap. It's created by an xbox guy...
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IT is a good idea, I have been thinking about emailing them to tell them why I am not enjoying the WCS system. At least WCS AM has been a big disapointment.
Things I would like to add
1. Why does it take you so long to add features your past games had? Such as chat rooms, clan system? Daily online tournaments for casual players to partake in for icons.
2. Clearly there are balance issues that need to be addressed at all levels the game is played at, why do you not act on them? Maybe add a few pro players as consultants for each race to test out new builds.
3. Does it bother you that WCS AM will likely be all Korean? What incentive do foreign players( often fan favorites) have to even try to be a pro gamer?
4. Will the ex IPL team be doing anything soon?
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mlg vs redbull isnt 2 companies fighting to show sc2 its 2 companies trying to put the toher out of business by stopping them operating on the dates they want.
have to say i dont watch sc2 anymore.
kind of regret buying hots not enjoyed it at all - it feels finiky adn the strats feel gimmiky.
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Didn't buy HOTS.
1. Single player didn't look that compelling. Target is teenagers, which is fine, but it doesn't rise above that. 2. D3 was so bad, and the handling of that game was so bad, that I'm basically done with Blizzard. The only time I'd buy another Blizzard game is if it really were notches above everything else. 3. HOTS basically did not improve anything except PvZ, which is alot better now. TvP is exactly the same annoying matchup. TvZ is getting stale fast. 4. Shit handling of the scene. Has been true from the day 0 of SC2 when they snubbed Kespa.
Therefore I don't see any reason to give Blizzard any money for mediocre work.
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On August 10 2013 00:46 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:43 larse wrote:On August 10 2013 00:41 Passion wrote:On August 10 2013 00:33 larse wrote: The chat channel and game room argument again. You guys do realize that even if blizzard adds these features tomorrow, sc2 won't magically become popular. Lol is still way more popular than dota2 (don't get fooled by ti3's number) without most awesome features from dota2. The most fundamental is that the game needs to be fun to play for a greater amount of people. And this is not the case due to sc2's nature and the taste of today's gamer (don't get me wrong, it's fun to play for me and many people). They are good features to have but it can only boost the game's popularity in the margin. Who cares whether SC2 is more popular than whatever other game. The chat channel situation is probably the biggest issue this game has. It's asocial. This has a huge negative influence on creative initiatives and on the fun people have in game. Nothing is more important. It won't change anything overnight, but if it doesn't happen, things will never improve. The whole strelok's article is about Why sc2 is not popular....... Yes. Not why it's less popular than game X. Thank you for your support.
Strelok specifically compares sc2 with lol, dota2, and wot. Do you read?
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On August 10 2013 01:10 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:46 Passion wrote:On August 10 2013 00:43 larse wrote:On August 10 2013 00:41 Passion wrote:On August 10 2013 00:33 larse wrote: The chat channel and game room argument again. You guys do realize that even if blizzard adds these features tomorrow, sc2 won't magically become popular. Lol is still way more popular than dota2 (don't get fooled by ti3's number) without most awesome features from dota2. The most fundamental is that the game needs to be fun to play for a greater amount of people. And this is not the case due to sc2's nature and the taste of today's gamer (don't get me wrong, it's fun to play for me and many people). They are good features to have but it can only boost the game's popularity in the margin. Who cares whether SC2 is more popular than whatever other game. The chat channel situation is probably the biggest issue this game has. It's asocial. This has a huge negative influence on creative initiatives and on the fun people have in game. Nothing is more important. It won't change anything overnight, but if it doesn't happen, things will never improve. The whole strelok's article is about Why sc2 is not popular....... Yes. Not why it's less popular than game X. Thank you for your support. Strelok specifically compares sc2 with lol, dota2, and wot. Do you read? Right, so let's not do anything that would increase the popularity of SC2 in a steady way, but only look for some magical overnight solution. Great plan. So smart.
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On August 10 2013 01:10 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:46 Passion wrote:On August 10 2013 00:43 larse wrote:On August 10 2013 00:41 Passion wrote:On August 10 2013 00:33 larse wrote: The chat channel and game room argument again. You guys do realize that even if blizzard adds these features tomorrow, sc2 won't magically become popular. Lol is still way more popular than dota2 (don't get fooled by ti3's number) without most awesome features from dota2. The most fundamental is that the game needs to be fun to play for a greater amount of people. And this is not the case due to sc2's nature and the taste of today's gamer (don't get me wrong, it's fun to play for me and many people). They are good features to have but it can only boost the game's popularity in the margin. Who cares whether SC2 is more popular than whatever other game. The chat channel situation is probably the biggest issue this game has. It's asocial. This has a huge negative influence on creative initiatives and on the fun people have in game. Nothing is more important. It won't change anything overnight, but if it doesn't happen, things will never improve. The whole strelok's article is about Why sc2 is not popular....... Yes. Not why it's less popular than game X. Thank you for your support. Strelok specifically compares sc2 with lol, dota2, and wot. Do you read? Right, and he is pointing out that compairing the games is dumb. No one compairs golf to football. We can enjoy both and we need to focus on SC2, not look over at Dota 2 and LoL going "why isn't that us?".
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Maybe this will sound stupid but this could be added to questions.
What is taking so long to fix 4v4 ? Does Blizzard don't care about fixing their own game? Isn't this indicator of them not caring about,to be honest,quite large player base? This makes you wonder how much they actually care about SC2 being a success.
I hope this is not the case,but it looks like......
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On August 10 2013 01:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:10 larse wrote:On August 10 2013 00:46 Passion wrote:On August 10 2013 00:43 larse wrote:On August 10 2013 00:41 Passion wrote:On August 10 2013 00:33 larse wrote: The chat channel and game room argument again. You guys do realize that even if blizzard adds these features tomorrow, sc2 won't magically become popular. Lol is still way more popular than dota2 (don't get fooled by ti3's number) without most awesome features from dota2. The most fundamental is that the game needs to be fun to play for a greater amount of people. And this is not the case due to sc2's nature and the taste of today's gamer (don't get me wrong, it's fun to play for me and many people). They are good features to have but it can only boost the game's popularity in the margin. Who cares whether SC2 is more popular than whatever other game. The chat channel situation is probably the biggest issue this game has. It's asocial. This has a huge negative influence on creative initiatives and on the fun people have in game. Nothing is more important. It won't change anything overnight, but if it doesn't happen, things will never improve. The whole strelok's article is about Why sc2 is not popular....... Yes. Not why it's less popular than game X. Thank you for your support. Strelok specifically compares sc2 with lol, dota2, and wot. Do you read? Right, and he is pointing out that compairing the games is dumb. No one compairs golf to football. We can enjoy both and we need to focus on SC2, not look over at Dota 2 and LoL going "why isn't that us?".
SC2 isn't Lol or Dota 2 because: it isn't free to play, it isn't a team game, the other developers take a more proactive approach to keeping the game up to date, and, in my opinion, LoL and Dota 2 aren't as stressful to play as SC2 and are easier to learn the basics.
I wonder if there was a stronger push to balance team games if it would make the game more popular? The simple fact is people don't like to lose and they sure as hell don't like to lose in a 1v1 game(ladder anxiety). Having a team game aspect could be a good thing.
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On August 10 2013 00:45 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. If I remember hearing correctly, Blizzard designed the game to be played on a lower speed setting. First battle report for reference: Battle Report # 1I agree with all of your statements and think that the easy fix is to slow the speed down. This will encourage early/mid game play (players will have more real time in these phases of the game), it will alleviate some of the dps issues (by definition, dps will go down), and it will take some of the randomness out of the game (players will have more time to scout and react). The last and probably the most important change that slowing the game down would bring is it will make the game much more accessible and less stressful to newcomers.
The best life vs parting game was on a slower speed setting. It was AMAZING! With micro from both sides that seemed ridiculous and awe inspiring.
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why the fuck do tournaments need a license..... it's like blizzard purposely wants to ruin their games potential.......
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1. + Show Spoiler +Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
Is it even on the same level now? I don't think so tbh. Does it even need to be on the same level?
2. + Show Spoiler +How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
Top 8 in EU is not all Korean. Tournaments before WCS were Korean dominated anyway so no change really.
3. + Show Spoiler +In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
They probably don't care too much.
4. + Show Spoiler +Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
They probably just won't upgrade anything since it's easier. Also as to the 'Pick a race' thing, imagine you queue and you pair up against someone who is Protoss, you play TvP so you pick Terran but the Protoss prefers playing ZvT so he changes to Zerg but you don't like playing TvZ so you change to Protoss but the other guy hates.... Well you can see where this goes. You might be lucky to play 1 game a day at that rate.
5. + Show Spoiler +What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
Not exactly disappeared really. 47/200 thats 23.5% and 49/180 is 27%. Assuming perfect race balance and accounting for maybe 5% being random, equilibrium is around 31.667%. Sure Terran is lower, but its hardly at the point of extinction!
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This is the Blizz style, they took 10 years to develop a game, so expect minor patches to come once 2-3 years, they are moving at a snails pace and its gonna hurt them. You know, its kinda useless to treat a dead guy for a minor headache. These constant delays in patching and balance drive people to other games and they are not coming back. After LOV the game will probably die in 2-3 years, and if Warcraft 4 comes out, SC2 is dead for sure. To people who say Dota2, LoL etc are not rts so sc2 will not die or grow even more, you have to realize all of them are competing for the same public, the gamers, who use the same platform, the PC, and the players just go from a game to another when they are not satisfied. And planning their final events at the same time as Dota's TI3 is like shooting yourself in the head for no reason.
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when will they understand they need to switch to a f2p model to be able to compete?
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On August 10 2013 01:47 SolidMustard wrote: when will they understand they need to switch to a f2p model to be able to compete?
You need to understand that it want change much in the long run, if the game was fun to play people would for sure play it
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On August 10 2013 01:47 SolidMustard wrote: when will they understand they need to switch to a f2p model to be able to compete?
Because ladder fear does not come from the price tag.
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Strelok you should know what the scene would be like. Brood War really was no different. RTS games have always been a niche market. You aren't going to get the masses. You say Blizzard don't respond to you. You think they're going to go through every email? If you really want to talk to them try to talk with David Kim or someone else at an event with your concerns/questions. As for your points. I've already addressed many of those many times over and heck Blizzard even explained a lot of them in interviews past. It's like playing broken telephone. -_-
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On August 10 2013 01:47 SolidMustard wrote: when will they understand they need to switch to a f2p model to be able to compete?
They didnt make WoW f2p, which has like 8mil ppl playing so they are not going to make sc2 wich has 300k ppl.
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On August 10 2013 01:55 vidium wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:47 SolidMustard wrote: when will they understand they need to switch to a f2p model to be able to compete? They didnt make WoW f2p, which has like 8mil ppl playing so they are not going to make sc2 wich has 300k ppl. Which is 200K less than Dota 2 at any given time, FYI.
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12 pages later this thread is still whining about balance and that's why sc2 is "dying"
did i get it right?
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On August 10 2013 01:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:55 vidium wrote:On August 10 2013 01:47 SolidMustard wrote: when will they understand they need to switch to a f2p model to be able to compete? They didnt make WoW f2p, which has like 8mil ppl playing so they are not going to make sc2 wich has 300k ppl. Which is 200K less than Dota 2 at any given time, FYI.
Monthly subscription: 8 million One time payment: 300 thousand
Do you really think those types of numbers will convince a board approval of free to play when the cheaper option has less people in it?
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On August 09 2013 19:59 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote: SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport! You kidding right? SC2 is perfect as a spectator sport. It's amazing to see the top sc2 players play. Watching good micro, multitasking, sick strategies etc... On the other hand LoL is boring as fuck to spectate: first you see some laning, then you see some teamfights where you think "wtf is happening", then the teamfight is over. SC2 > LoL as spectator sport IMO.
SC2 is no where near perfect as a spectator sport, while an accomplished SC2 player is way more rare than a LoL player as the game is way more mechanically challenging and awe inspiring due to the control needed to play.
The problem is that most SC2 games follow a timeline of
a) Oh he got all-inned game is over in 5-8 minutes
b) Oh they are both macroing up! This is going to be crrrrazzz--- one big 3 second battle and its GG.
SC2 should be the better spectator sport but the game design is stopping that from happening.
Where as the moba games are really not that exciting to watch, but when you compare them to the current SC2 they are way more exciting.
Even in the character selection start there is so much damn depth its crazy, and most importantly each Moba game has TONS of key battles all over the place, and you know what happens most of the time they win a key fight? They go back and slowly build that advantage by farming more and growing it.
Imagine how bad these MOBA games would be if it was like SC2. OH THEY ACED THE TEAM OH MAN Oh gg what a great 15 minute fight!
o.0
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On August 10 2013 01:59 renaissanceMAN wrote: 12 pages later this thread is still whining about balance and that's why sc2 is "dying"
did i get it right? That's pretty damn on the spot. I also see it's inspired by Strelok not having any major wins in the last idk how many months since HotS. I'm not one for picking in pros, but in this case, the frustration at a lack of total results seems to be pretty obvious here; some of these critiques seem to be so tied more personal issues than widespread blizz issues, such as the "Why are there so few terrans QQ."
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Lol is just way too popular for any other game to compete with unfortunately.
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On August 10 2013 01:59 renaissanceMAN wrote: 12 pages later this thread is still whining about balance and that's why sc2 is "dying"
did i get it right?
No. You got it way wrong
Its about design, not balance.
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On August 10 2013 02:09 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:59 renaissanceMAN wrote: 12 pages later this thread is still whining about balance and that's why sc2 is "dying"
did i get it right? No. You got it way wrong Its about design, not balance. So its a way more useless discussion that will change little, like all design threads?
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As expected, Blizz dont talk to progamers, only to some who are a very influenced variable (most loved) by the community (Grubby & Incontrol).
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On August 10 2013 02:12 Dingodile wrote: As expected, Blizz dont talk to progamers, only to some who are a very influenced variable (most loved) by the community (Grubby & Incontrol).
i don't think this is the case...
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On August 10 2013 02:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 02:09 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 01:59 renaissanceMAN wrote: 12 pages later this thread is still whining about balance and that's why sc2 is "dying"
did i get it right? No. You got it way wrong Its about design, not balance. So its a way more useless discussion that will change little, like all design threads?
and how should i know that?
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On August 10 2013 02:13 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 02:12 Dingodile wrote: As expected, Blizz dont talk to progamers, only to some who are a very influenced variable (most loved) by the community (Grubby & Incontrol). i don't think this is the case... It isn't. They talked to progamers and Blizzard said that all of them were super bias towards their own race, which was not helpful.
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What I've never really understood about Battle net is how difficult it is to find people on there. Most of the chat channels are always empty and the ones to talk to people about learning the game or playing at lower leagues are non existent.
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On August 10 2013 02:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 02:13 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 02:12 Dingodile wrote: As expected, Blizz dont talk to progamers, only to some who are a very influenced variable (most loved) by the community (Grubby & Incontrol). i don't think this is the case... It isn't. They talked to progamers and Blizzard said that all of them were super bias towards their own race, which was not helpful.
I would have said this anyway, Blizzard can't rely solely on programers to keep SC2 going, then you'll end up with a gutted game like cod4
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imo what they should work on is: less workers with same income = bigger army unranked play: since it's practice, let them choose opposing race
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On August 10 2013 02:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 02:13 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 02:12 Dingodile wrote: As expected, Blizz dont talk to progamers, only to some who are a very influenced variable (most loved) by the community (Grubby & Incontrol). i don't think this is the case... It isn't. They talked to progamers and Blizzard said that all of them were super bias towards their own race, which was not helpful. This result came from the korean progamers.
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On August 10 2013 01:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:45 drgoats wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. If I remember hearing correctly, Blizzard designed the game to be played on a lower speed setting. First battle report for reference: Battle Report # 1I agree with all of your statements and think that the easy fix is to slow the speed down. This will encourage early/mid game play (players will have more real time in these phases of the game), it will alleviate some of the dps issues (by definition, dps will go down), and it will take some of the randomness out of the game (players will have more time to scout and react). The last and probably the most important change that slowing the game down would bring is it will make the game much more accessible and less stressful to newcomers. The best life vs parting game was on a slower speed setting. It was AMAZING! With micro from both sides that seemed ridiculous and awe inspiring.
Making the game fast is a popular demand during WOL alpha. Especially TL had a strong attitude on this back then. So Blizzard listened and increased the game speed during WOL alpha. It turned out, it's too fast...
How ironic.
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On August 10 2013 02:21 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 02:16 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 02:13 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 02:12 Dingodile wrote: As expected, Blizz dont talk to progamers, only to some who are a very influenced variable (most loved) by the community (Grubby & Incontrol). i don't think this is the case... It isn't. They talked to progamers and Blizzard said that all of them were super bias towards their own race, which was not helpful. This result came from the korean progamers. i thought this was by chineese progamers
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On August 10 2013 02:34 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 02:21 Dingodile wrote:On August 10 2013 02:16 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 02:13 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 02:12 Dingodile wrote: As expected, Blizz dont talk to progamers, only to some who are a very influenced variable (most loved) by the community (Grubby & Incontrol). i don't think this is the case... It isn't. They talked to progamers and Blizzard said that all of them were super bias towards their own race, which was not helpful. This result came from the korean progamers. i thought this was by chineese progamers
i thought this was by african progamers
+ Show Spoiler +
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On August 10 2013 02:21 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 02:16 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 02:13 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 02:12 Dingodile wrote: As expected, Blizz dont talk to progamers, only to some who are a very influenced variable (most loved) by the community (Grubby & Incontrol). i don't think this is the case... It isn't. They talked to progamers and Blizzard said that all of them were super bias towards their own race, which was not helpful. This result came from the korean progamers. This came from Blizzard in several interviews on the subject. They said talking to progamers is not as helpful as people would think. They find it better to discuss balance with other folks in the community who are more objective, aka Artosis, Day 9 and others.
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On August 10 2013 02:04 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:59 renaissanceMAN wrote: 12 pages later this thread is still whining about balance and that's why sc2 is "dying"
did i get it right? That's pretty damn on the spot. I also see it's inspired by Strelok not having any major wins in the last idk how many months since HotS. I'm not one for picking in pros, but in this case, the frustration at a lack of total results seems to be pretty obvious here; some of these critiques seem to be so tied more personal issues than widespread blizz issues, such as the "Why are there so few terrans QQ." i don't know, it just seems to me like alot of whinning with no data -.-'
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Taking a game part of my life needs more than just good gameplay, this is the reason I'm becoming more of an dota player even when it's nearly impossible to train and practice to become top tier dota player.
Valve has so good community support and they are active. We have now chat channels but they are so dead and there is no familiar faces. There was! WEC tournament and this guy "master" etc etc. All the circles are now dead and I don't know about the new ones.
I think it's good to compare dota client and sc2 client because we should've had those features in sc2 too and they would help immensly.
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On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful.
I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start.
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Did the SC2 community not try this like... 3 times already?
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On August 10 2013 03:07 Kishin2 wrote: Did the SC2 community not try this like... 3 times already?
Yeah, maybe if we just throw our arms up in the air, run around in circles, stare up into the sky when it's raining and then proceed to slowly die out then the problems will fix themselves!
You'd be hilariously blind to think this game isn't stagnating. One of the very key things noted in the OP is the fact that so many people retired from how the game even felt just playing at the pro level in WOL. There isn't a need for 'data'. Simply read the recent events in the SC2General section and you will see many posts that resonate with posts in WOL. People who are posting such silly remarks to these types of things, or brush off how other real, high level players feel, will come to a shocking realization at some point that this game isn't progressing at an optimal manner; and at some point, it will decline sharply from a severe lack of interest in its longevity.
I think Strelok and others have the right idea with this sort of thing. The problem is when the people they're trying to contact brush off their requests, and moreover, think nothing of their efforts because they believe others in the community think everything is okay - or even worse - they themselves believe it. Sadly, what lower league players, or random TL posters have to say should not be considered, almost at all, when thinking of how to optimally provide competition and a stable environment for pro players. It's mind boggling to me when the very people who play in the pro scene are ignored by the people who are supposed to be making tournaments for them.
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Love this write up! Hopefully Blizz wakes up.
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On August 10 2013 02:53 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start. As long as David Kim and Dustin Browder are still at the helm the problems will be the same ... because they are connected to the core design of the game.
Stuff like "unit density" and "production capability" all lead to maximized dps which reduces the available time for a defender to react to attacks and this makes the game harder to play for new / lower skill players.
LaLuSh mentioned the Infestor nerf, but what was the real problem with Fungal Growth? The problem was that it was easily chained back to back ... because Zerg had 25+ Infestors and lots of energy for Fungals. - What would happen if you couldnt control that many of them at the same time? - What would happen if there was no smartcast and you had to pick individual Infestors or waste lots of energy? - What would happen if your production and economy didnt allow you to get more than five Infestors? Fungal Growth would be less of a problem. Oh and ... - What would happen if the opponent started with spread out units instead of forcibly clumped up units? It is pretty easy to see that the really big problems are the ones which Blizzard completely ignores (because it would have been the wisest choice to fix them at the end of WoL).
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Strelok has the right idea but until a profession who WINS a major tournament actually says onstage something like "Yes, I won in a game that Blizzard has killed," Blizzard won't pay attention. Countless threads wont have the same impact as live criticism in front of an audience of tens/hundreds of thousands of viewers.
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: SCII becoming less popular. By little or by much? I don't know. But you can't ignore the fact, that instead of developing we start to get at least stagnation, if not worse. I was trying to contact Blizzard for several reasons during WoL. The reasons were different. I didn't get response for my feedback even a single time. I tried to talk with stuff from Blizzard, but no success. Even special meetings which were made for such a "discussions" were just for "V" in their diaries, not for discussion. I still remeber how in august 2012 in Germany progamers gathered together and tried to discuss with David Kim infestors and their imbalance in very late game, but he simply refused to listen. During next several months after that - huge number terran/protoss players retired. Noone wants to loose just because it's almost impossible to win. Maybe, if he listened, that wouldn't happen.
So i am writing here the open letter to Blizzard. Maybe now, they will answer for at least some of those questions.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
Dear community, if you agree with me - spread this letter wherever you can, add your questions (the biggest ones i will add in my first post). Only together we can manage to reach Blizzard and make them to answer to REALLY PROBLEMATIC questions. And even if with our efforts - we won't manage to get the answer... Well that will be also an answer from Blizzard to all of us. Now we can change something to a good side. Later - who knows? 1. i'm sure they like how it developes. the games are more exciting to watch than WoL and we'll most likely have a multitude of famous major events for the next 5+ years with enough viewers to sustain a pro scene.
2. NA or EU only tournaments are just not very interesting to watch. viewer numbers reflect that. this is a two-edged sword. on the one hand it's demotivating for a lot of foreigners to see the korean dominance, on the other hand no one cares about foreign-only tournaments. there's not much one could do.
3. small lans dont develope young players. no one EVER cared about small lans EVER. no one ever gets to hear about the winner of some small lan. young talents develope online. small lans are played and will be played because gamers like to get together and play offline.
4. good questions/ideas, i guess.
5. interesting, didnt know. obviously terran will see some buffs then.
On August 10 2013 04:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 02:53 SinCitta wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start. As long as David Kim and Dustin Browder are still at the helm the problems will be the same ... because they are connected to the core design of the game. Stuff like "unit density" and "production capability" all lead to maximized dps which reduces the available time for a defender to react to attacks and this makes the game harder to play for new / lower skill players. LaLuSh mentioned the Infestor nerf, but what was the real problem with Fungal Growth? The problem was that it was easily chained back to back ... because Zerg had 25+ Infestors and lots of energy for Fungals. - What would happen if you couldnt control that many of them at the same time? - What would happen if there was no smartcast and you had to pick individual Infestors or waste lots of energy? - What would happen if your production and economy didnt allow you to get more than five Infestors? Fungal Growth would be less of a problem. Oh and ... - What would happen if the opponent started with spread out units instead of forcibly clumped up units? It is pretty easy to see that the really big problems are the ones which Blizzard completely ignores (because it would have been the wisest choice to fix them at the end of WoL). so people still want SC2 to be a BW clone? i think it would do more harm than good. BW fanboys would be a little happier, but there's a serious risk the player number would plummet.
never thought about that?
let me rephrase that. SC2 is a really really famous game right now. one of the best performing competitive games we have. the only competitive RTS we have. you wanna completely rework a game so many people love and you think it will attract more people because it's more like BW then? that's not a very sound plan, in my opinion.
if you guys dont like SC2, why cant you just let it go? you're not pro anyway. go play BW. accept SC2 isnt BW2. i know it's hard. i have to accept CSGO isnt CS1.6 too. i know that feeling, trust me.
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I think blizzard should consider dropping the price of HOTS or im not sure if they do or not but offer cheap combo packs of both WOL and HOTS. Perhaps both for $49.99 so new ppl can come into the scene and learn the game. No one in their right mind is going to pay $70-$90 for a new game they haven't had a chance to truly try. (RTS is harder to sell). Should be a lower rate imo and perhaps hots expansion prices should be down a bit too. Just to give us that boost to the game base. Dota2 and League are all free to play so we need to look at lowering the cost for newer gamers to the scene. We have a great product don't get me wrong but not many gamers are going to be running to an RTS to start with. Most gamers are more familiar with FPS and the more accessible MOBA's. Just some food for thought.
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On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: [...] Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero. [...]
Are you sure? At max supply at "No Upkeep" (50/100supply )there a fights after fights... unlike sc2. The most boring part is the time to max their untis from 50 to 70 or 100 supply, but even there are more fights than in sc2. And yes, I really hate that nobody wants to attack if both are at max supply in sc2.
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beg I think the word your looking for is popular. It's pretty popular, but lets not over-exaggerate. As far as competition goes. BW and WC3 still exist like many other RTS games. They're still competitive. They don't take center stage though and that's always been true. One RTS usually holds the main stage. It's very rare that both do and I guess you could make an argument for China and their WC3 scene while the Korean BW pro scene was going on at the same time. Even if the game were a little different it would be a niche market regardless. Blizzard dumbed down the game by a lot. RTS games were never meant to be mainstream.
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On August 10 2013 04:33 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: SCII becoming less popular. By little or by much? I don't know. But you can't ignore the fact, that instead of developing we start to get at least stagnation, if not worse. I was trying to contact Blizzard for several reasons during WoL. The reasons were different. I didn't get response for my feedback even a single time. I tried to talk with stuff from Blizzard, but no success. Even special meetings which were made for such a "discussions" were just for "V" in their diaries, not for discussion. I still remeber how in august 2012 in Germany progamers gathered together and tried to discuss with David Kim infestors and their imbalance in very late game, but he simply refused to listen. During next several months after that - huge number terran/protoss players retired. Noone wants to loose just because it's almost impossible to win. Maybe, if he listened, that wouldn't happen.
So i am writing here the open letter to Blizzard. Maybe now, they will answer for at least some of those questions.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
Dear community, if you agree with me - spread this letter wherever you can, add your questions (the biggest ones i will add in my first post). Only together we can manage to reach Blizzard and make them to answer to REALLY PROBLEMATIC questions. And even if with our efforts - we won't manage to get the answer... Well that will be also an answer from Blizzard to all of us. Now we can change something to a good side. Later - who knows? 1. i'm sure they like how it developes. the games are more exciting to watch than WoL and we'll most likely have a multitude of famous major events for the next 5+ years with enough viewers to sustain a pro scene. 2. NA or EU only tournaments are just not very interesting to watch. viewer numbers reflect that. this is a two-edged sword. on the one hand it's demotivating for a lot of foreigners to see the korean dominance, on the other hand no one cares about foreign-only tournaments. there's not much one could do. 3. small lans dont develope young players. no one EVER cared about small lans EVER. no one ever gets to hear about the winner of some small lan. young talents develope online. small lans are played and will be played because gamers like to get together and play offline. 4. good questions/ideas, i guess. 5. interesting, didnt know. obviously terran will see some buffs then. Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:14 Rabiator wrote:On August 10 2013 02:53 SinCitta wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start. As long as David Kim and Dustin Browder are still at the helm the problems will be the same ... because they are connected to the core design of the game. Stuff like "unit density" and "production capability" all lead to maximized dps which reduces the available time for a defender to react to attacks and this makes the game harder to play for new / lower skill players. LaLuSh mentioned the Infestor nerf, but what was the real problem with Fungal Growth? The problem was that it was easily chained back to back ... because Zerg had 25+ Infestors and lots of energy for Fungals. - What would happen if you couldnt control that many of them at the same time? - What would happen if there was no smartcast and you had to pick individual Infestors or waste lots of energy? - What would happen if your production and economy didnt allow you to get more than five Infestors? Fungal Growth would be less of a problem. Oh and ... - What would happen if the opponent started with spread out units instead of forcibly clumped up units? It is pretty easy to see that the really big problems are the ones which Blizzard completely ignores (because it would have been the wisest choice to fix them at the end of WoL). so people still want SC2 to be a BW clone? i think it would do more harm than good. BW fanboys would be a little happier, but there's a serious risk the player number would plummet. never thought about that? let me rephrase that. SC2 is a really really famous game right now. one of the best performing competitive games we have. the only competitive RTS we have. you wanna completely rework a game so many people love and you think it will attract more people because it's more like BW then? that's not a very sound plan, in my opinion. if you guys dont like SC2, why cant you just let it go? you're not pro anyway. go play BW. accept SC2 isnt BW2. i know it's hard. i have to accept CSGO isnt CS1.6 too. i know that feeling, trust me.
funny enough, i have to agree. If you don't like sc2 come back to BW (;
Strelok, you gonna play TLS3 ? :>
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On August 10 2013 04:33 beg wrote:
so people still want SC2 to be a BW clone? i think it would do more harm than good. BW fanboys would be a little happier, but there's a serious risk the player number would plummet.
never thought about that?
let me rephrase that. SC2 is a really really famous game right now. one of the best performing competitive games we have. the only competitive RTS we have. you wanna completely rework a game so many people love and you think it will attract more people because it's more like BW then? that's not a very sound plan, in my opinion.
if you guys dont like SC2, why cant you just let it go? you're not pro anyway. go play BW. accept SC2 isnt BW2. i know it's hard. i have to accept CSGO isnt CS1.6 too. i know that feeling, trust me.
If a game is good people will play it even if newer expansions come out. Look at Age of Empires 2, it just got a HD version. I wonder how many copies of BW HD or Wacraft 3 HD Blizz would sell.
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I can't relate anymore to any sc2 player, or the current metagame.
too many random akward korean kids destroying players we've grown to like dureing a couple of years, and it's just depressing and frustrating. koreans beeing able to play the WCS NA and EU are a slap in the face.
the metagame has been stalling for longer tho. I believe it all started with the PvP 4gate snoozefest. Then the TvT with Viking flower/tank thing, with 2rax bunker rush vZ. then ling/baneling in ZvZ. But people got around that eventually. it was just too boring to watch. now, it's all medivac drops... hellbat is worse than the warhound, man... pvp is still a 1 base bullshit... I mean, it might have changed, but I just won't watch it anymore. SC2 has lost all the appeal to me. HotS didn't change it tho, and it costs a LOT for an expansion package, so I won't buy it, even with the 25% discount.
Dota OTOH is rising, with exciting matches, way less "cast plastered" or cheesy, and even the easterns are more accessible and less akward than sc2 koreans, which makes it a plus.
IMO, Blizaard has put the final nail in SC2 coffin with the WCS thing. Specially putting it in the hands of NASL. Hiring the IPL people clearly accomplished nothing, the "content" they've been making is deplorable.
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On August 10 2013 07:07 JP Dayne wrote: pvp is still a 1 base bullshit... I mean, it might have changed, but I just won't watch it anymore...
Yes, relish in your ignorance. We saw some excellent PvPs in WCS Europe this week and we are about to see a lot more with all the toss that advanced to the RO8. I have no problem with your opinion, but given that you admit you don't watch pvp, I don't respect it and I can tell you, you are wrong.
And the examples you give of WOL stagnation actually prove the opposite: those builds didn't stick around because the metagame DID change.
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make wcs complete offline, at least the premiar league and then split the top8 like in korea over weeks, with that a korean would have stayed as long in germany/usa as foreigns had to stay in korea ... would lower the number i think and every foreign premium league player should have a team to support him stay the time in germany/usa (LA)
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I think Terran is Op that Just your effort a few lack
case of WCS KR, GF balance is T3 P2
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the only important question for blizzard right now is probably why a casual player like me who is losing 30 games in a row gets 2000p master league players and then plays gm players, the logic behind that is mindboggling
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On August 09 2013 19:07 ErrantKnight wrote: I agree on the big lines but for everything concerning current balance, I think it's still too early to say anything.
respectfully...its been 3 years since full sc2 release...i know only a few months since HOTS launch but we cant use the excuse "its too early" for 3 more years then LOTV then "its too early" for another 3 years BW had its final balance change in 2001... 98-01 = 3 years...thats all it took...now is when we need to stand together as a community and say that if they dont change this we cant play this forever because its been a few weeks since dota 2 full release...what else needs be said?
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If you want to look at a competent developer, you should look at Valve and not blizzard. Blizzard stated they've built SC2 from the ground up as an esports title and in my opinion is vastly far behind compared to other entities in the genre. Examples being Riot with them paying teams a salary for their LCS, Valve implementing a spectator mode in DOTA2 that allows you to watch tournament games in-cilent, ways to directly support individual teams with pennants, supporting a prize pool and many other features with the compendium, and even an old outdated feature called LAN - short for Local Area Network which allows you to play the game offline and not have to worry about internet outages in major tournaments.
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not to worry so much about sc2. it´s a shame for the three races, the bw history, but community won´t refloat this game blizzard have to care about their shit, if they don´t or they don´t know how, people will leave sc2 and start looking for a better game maybe sc2 did a ton of dollars more than bw, but bw was a much better game and that is what matters
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Why can't we choose what match-up to play? I mean you could just throw it onto unranked. Then again, I don't know what was wrong with ZvP FS D-D+
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On August 10 2013 07:48 {ToT}ColmA wrote: the only important question for blizzard right now is probably why a casual player like me who is losing 30 games in a row gets 2000p master league players and then plays gm players, the logic behind that is mindboggling
judging by your icon you play terran so there's your answer. : )
@ topic:
in my opinion hots has been a complete disaster. not even purely balance wise, that of course was to be expected really from a new game. the fact that they pretty much didn't patch anything major almost half a year afte release is absolutely mind boggling.
but the real story is hots didn't change ANY of the outside of balance great disappointments people had with WOL. death ball. turtling. too much aoe and spell casting. too little unit micro. terrible terrible damage. some of these issues got even worse. like:
people don't like to watch 50 min no attack bl infestor spine turtle games. I KNOW! let's make broodlord a completely unviable unit but add another unit that does the exact same thing broods used to do! except even slower! and more boring! and longer!! it's gonna be totally awesome!!!!!
hydras suck eh?
LETS MAKE THEM FASTER!!!! OH AND WHILE WERE AT IT
MAKE MUTA FASTER! AND MEDIVAC! TANK IS TOO SLOW, DELETE IT. ADD MINE, ITS FAST! PROTOSS DONT DO SO WELL? MAKE PRISM FASTER!
MAKE EVERYTHING FASTER
!!!!!!!!!!!
ITS PERFECT!
people dont like the balance? we designed a ladder system to give everyone 50% win rates. therefore ladder win rates are 50%
PERFECT BALANCE
WHATS THAT? YOU WANT TO BROADCAST A TOURNAMENT? WELL YOU BETTER BUY A LICENSE SO YOUR MONEY SINK COSTS EVEN MORE BRO LOL!
User was warned for this post
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I agree with that players are isolated in battle net and this is really bad. I'd like there was a system for custom games so it would work like that: You choose level of opponents for you (equal, favored etc) and get in a room with appropirate players. Not like you press "start" and get somebody. If you get in a room and negotiate about games it's much better. So you could choose the match-up or ask to obs others or just chat a little. You could train your weak MU, ask for advices etc and not to get upset by loses, like in a ladder.
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On August 10 2013 04:33 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: SCII becoming less popular. By little or by much? I don't know. But you can't ignore the fact, that instead of developing we start to get at least stagnation, if not worse. I was trying to contact Blizzard for several reasons during WoL. The reasons were different. I didn't get response for my feedback even a single time. I tried to talk with stuff from Blizzard, but no success. Even special meetings which were made for such a "discussions" were just for "V" in their diaries, not for discussion. I still remeber how in august 2012 in Germany progamers gathered together and tried to discuss with David Kim infestors and their imbalance in very late game, but he simply refused to listen. During next several months after that - huge number terran/protoss players retired. Noone wants to loose just because it's almost impossible to win. Maybe, if he listened, that wouldn't happen.
So i am writing here the open letter to Blizzard. Maybe now, they will answer for at least some of those questions.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
Dear community, if you agree with me - spread this letter wherever you can, add your questions (the biggest ones i will add in my first post). Only together we can manage to reach Blizzard and make them to answer to REALLY PROBLEMATIC questions. And even if with our efforts - we won't manage to get the answer... Well that will be also an answer from Blizzard to all of us. Now we can change something to a good side. Later - who knows? 1. i'm sure they like how it developes. the games are more exciting to watch than WoL and we'll most likely have a multitude of famous major events for the next 5+ years with enough viewers to sustain a pro scene. 2. NA or EU only tournaments are just not very interesting to watch. viewer numbers reflect that. this is a two-edged sword. on the one hand it's demotivating for a lot of foreigners to see the korean dominance, on the other hand no one cares about foreign-only tournaments. there's not much one could do. 3. small lans dont develope young players. no one EVER cared about small lans EVER. no one ever gets to hear about the winner of some small lan. young talents develope online. small lans are played and will be played because gamers like to get together and play offline. 4. good questions/ideas, i guess. 5. interesting, didnt know. obviously terran will see some buffs then. Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:14 Rabiator wrote:On August 10 2013 02:53 SinCitta wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start. As long as David Kim and Dustin Browder are still at the helm the problems will be the same ... because they are connected to the core design of the game. Stuff like "unit density" and "production capability" all lead to maximized dps which reduces the available time for a defender to react to attacks and this makes the game harder to play for new / lower skill players. LaLuSh mentioned the Infestor nerf, but what was the real problem with Fungal Growth? The problem was that it was easily chained back to back ... because Zerg had 25+ Infestors and lots of energy for Fungals. - What would happen if you couldnt control that many of them at the same time? - What would happen if there was no smartcast and you had to pick individual Infestors or waste lots of energy? - What would happen if your production and economy didnt allow you to get more than five Infestors? Fungal Growth would be less of a problem. Oh and ... - What would happen if the opponent started with spread out units instead of forcibly clumped up units? It is pretty easy to see that the really big problems are the ones which Blizzard completely ignores (because it would have been the wisest choice to fix them at the end of WoL). so people still want SC2 to be a BW clone? i think it would do more harm than good. BW fanboys would be a little happier, but there's a serious risk the player number would plummet. never thought about that? let me rephrase that. SC2 is a really really famous game right now. one of the best performing competitive games we have. the only competitive RTS we have. you wanna completely rework a game so many people love and you think it will attract more people because it's more like BW then? that's not a very sound plan, in my opinion. if you guys dont like SC2, why cant you just let it go? you're not pro anyway. go play BW. accept SC2 isnt BW2. i know it's hard. i have to accept CSGO isnt CS1.6 too. i know that feeling, trust me. I cant let it go because all the players i have followed daily for the last 6 years or so still play this game.
What i hate about sc2 is that the difference in skill so rarely shines through in the games at the highest level. Anyone can beat anyone. I blame smart cast and simplified macro and micro which levels the playing field very much and makes it harder for the best players to utplay their oponents.
One example is how only one or two players in the world, literally, could make a play like this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I3OQJKlbOuI In comparison, all the pros in sc2 use storm more or less as well as all the others.
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On August 10 2013 08:42 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 07:48 {ToT}ColmA wrote: the only important question for blizzard right now is probably why a casual player like me who is losing 30 games in a row gets 2000p master league players and then plays gm players, the logic behind that is mindboggling judging by your icon you play terran so there's your answer. : ) @ topic: in my opinion hots has been a complete disaster. not even purely balance wise, that of course was to be expected really from a new game. the fact that they pretty much didn't patch anything major almost half a year afte release is absolutely mind boggling. but the real story is hots didn't change ANY of the outside of balance great disappointments people had with WOL. death ball. turtling. too much aoe and spell casting. too little unit micro. terrible terrible damage. some of these issues got even worse. like: people don't like to watch 50 min no attack bl infestor spine turtle games. I KNOW! let's make broodlord a completely unviable unit but add another unit that does the exact same thing broods used to do! except even slower! and more boring! and longer!! it's gonna be totally awesome!!!!! hydras suck eh? LETS MAKE THEM FASTER!!!! OH AND WHILE WERE AT IT MAKE MUTA FASTER! AND MEDIVAC! TANK IS TOO SLOW, DELETE IT. ADD MINE, ITS FAST! PROTOSS DONT DO SO WELL? MAKE PRISM FASTER! MAKE EVERYTHING FASTER !!!!!!!!!!! ITS PERFECT! people dont like the balance? we designed a ladder system to give everyone 50% win rates. therefore ladder win rates are 50% PERFECT BALANCE WHATS THAT? YOU WANT TO BROADCAST A TOURNAMENT? WELL YOU BETTER BUY A LICENSE SO YOUR MONEY SINK COSTS EVEN MORE BRO LOL!
omg this is hilarious, but i agree ^^
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On August 10 2013 08:42 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 07:48 {ToT}ColmA wrote: the only important question for blizzard right now is probably why a casual player like me who is losing 30 games in a row gets 2000p master league players and then plays gm players, the logic behind that is mindboggling judging by your icon you play terran so there's your answer. : ) @ topic: in my opinion hots has been a complete disaster. not even purely balance wise, that of course was to be expected really from a new game. the fact that they pretty much didn't patch anything major almost half a year afte release is absolutely mind boggling. but the real story is hots didn't change ANY of the outside of balance great disappointments people had with WOL. death ball. turtling. too much aoe and spell casting. too little unit micro. terrible terrible damage. some of these issues got even worse. like: people don't like to watch 50 min no attack bl infestor spine turtle games. I KNOW! let's make broodlord a completely unviable unit but add another unit that does the exact same thing broods used to do! except even slower! and more boring! and longer!! it's gonna be totally awesome!!!!! hydras suck eh? LETS MAKE THEM FASTER!!!! OH AND WHILE WERE AT IT MAKE MUTA FASTER! AND MEDIVAC! TANK IS TOO SLOW, DELETE IT. ADD MINE, ITS FAST! PROTOSS DONT DO SO WELL? MAKE PRISM FASTER! MAKE EVERYTHING FASTER !!!!!!!!!!! ITS PERFECT! people dont like the balance? we designed a ladder system to give everyone 50% win rates. therefore ladder win rates are 50% PERFECT BALANCE WHATS THAT? YOU WANT TO BROADCAST A TOURNAMENT? WELL YOU BETTER BUY A LICENSE SO YOUR MONEY SINK COSTS EVEN MORE BRO LOL!
What a good way to show how bad actually hots is, well done sir :D
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Just have to toss in my two cents with the boom of these "chaos" themed threads popping up....
I haven't played SC2 in awhile, I haven't watched tournaments, I haven't watched streamers, nothing. I have spent pretty much all my time playing DOTA 2. I like it, it is fun. I play with my cousins and friends and I have a good time. I often think about SC2 and it always comes back to the thought "Why can't Blizzard do this? Wow Blizzard sucks."
I look at DOTA2 and all the time there is this influx of content and features and heroes and updates and just stuff, and it all comes in so quickly its hard to imagine. Then I look at SC2 and see how little has been done, how minimal and insignificant the changes and tweaks and additions have been on the game in upwards of 3 years. I've been playing DOTA2 for a year and have seen more in the last 6 months (my heaviest of time spent playing) than in 3 years on SC2.
It just makes me question one thing, what the hell is Blizzard doing?
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On August 10 2013 09:06 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:33 beg wrote:On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: SCII becoming less popular. By little or by much? I don't know. But you can't ignore the fact, that instead of developing we start to get at least stagnation, if not worse. I was trying to contact Blizzard for several reasons during WoL. The reasons were different. I didn't get response for my feedback even a single time. I tried to talk with stuff from Blizzard, but no success. Even special meetings which were made for such a "discussions" were just for "V" in their diaries, not for discussion. I still remeber how in august 2012 in Germany progamers gathered together and tried to discuss with David Kim infestors and their imbalance in very late game, but he simply refused to listen. During next several months after that - huge number terran/protoss players retired. Noone wants to loose just because it's almost impossible to win. Maybe, if he listened, that wouldn't happen.
So i am writing here the open letter to Blizzard. Maybe now, they will answer for at least some of those questions.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
Dear community, if you agree with me - spread this letter wherever you can, add your questions (the biggest ones i will add in my first post). Only together we can manage to reach Blizzard and make them to answer to REALLY PROBLEMATIC questions. And even if with our efforts - we won't manage to get the answer... Well that will be also an answer from Blizzard to all of us. Now we can change something to a good side. Later - who knows? 1. i'm sure they like how it developes. the games are more exciting to watch than WoL and we'll most likely have a multitude of famous major events for the next 5+ years with enough viewers to sustain a pro scene. 2. NA or EU only tournaments are just not very interesting to watch. viewer numbers reflect that. this is a two-edged sword. on the one hand it's demotivating for a lot of foreigners to see the korean dominance, on the other hand no one cares about foreign-only tournaments. there's not much one could do. 3. small lans dont develope young players. no one EVER cared about small lans EVER. no one ever gets to hear about the winner of some small lan. young talents develope online. small lans are played and will be played because gamers like to get together and play offline. 4. good questions/ideas, i guess. 5. interesting, didnt know. obviously terran will see some buffs then. On August 10 2013 04:14 Rabiator wrote:On August 10 2013 02:53 SinCitta wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start. As long as David Kim and Dustin Browder are still at the helm the problems will be the same ... because they are connected to the core design of the game. Stuff like "unit density" and "production capability" all lead to maximized dps which reduces the available time for a defender to react to attacks and this makes the game harder to play for new / lower skill players. LaLuSh mentioned the Infestor nerf, but what was the real problem with Fungal Growth? The problem was that it was easily chained back to back ... because Zerg had 25+ Infestors and lots of energy for Fungals. - What would happen if you couldnt control that many of them at the same time? - What would happen if there was no smartcast and you had to pick individual Infestors or waste lots of energy? - What would happen if your production and economy didnt allow you to get more than five Infestors? Fungal Growth would be less of a problem. Oh and ... - What would happen if the opponent started with spread out units instead of forcibly clumped up units? It is pretty easy to see that the really big problems are the ones which Blizzard completely ignores (because it would have been the wisest choice to fix them at the end of WoL). so people still want SC2 to be a BW clone? i think it would do more harm than good. BW fanboys would be a little happier, but there's a serious risk the player number would plummet. never thought about that? let me rephrase that. SC2 is a really really famous game right now. one of the best performing competitive games we have. the only competitive RTS we have. you wanna completely rework a game so many people love and you think it will attract more people because it's more like BW then? that's not a very sound plan, in my opinion. if you guys dont like SC2, why cant you just let it go? you're not pro anyway. go play BW. accept SC2 isnt BW2. i know it's hard. i have to accept CSGO isnt CS1.6 too. i know that feeling, trust me. I cant let it go because all the players i have followed daily for the last 6 years or so still play this game. What i hate about sc2 is that the difference in skill so rarely shines through in the games at the highest level. Anyone can beat anyone. I blame smart cast and simplified macro and micro which levels the playing field very much and makes it harder for the best players to utplay their oponents. One example is how only one or two players in the world, literally, could make a play like this:http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I3OQJKlbOuIIn comparison, all the pros in sc2 use storm more or less as well as all the others.
Can you imagine how depressed Jangbi must be right now, knowing that the nicest thing he can do in SC2 is throwing some forcefields here and there?
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I see a ton of people in clans, though I'm not in one myself. Are clans or groups social on SC2? And please, if your response is, "oh, I forgot, yet another failure by Blizzard," I'll need more of an explanation than that.
What I want is those ladder tournaments like the ones in WC3, plus sick icons to go with it. It'll be funny if Blizzard is releasing any of those features soon, just after another Destiny-esque mob may occur.
In terms of team-games, Blizzard All-Stars may be what SC2 needs, idk. I'm unsure if it's a SC2 mod, a potential standalone for a nominal price (or free if you own SC2). Blizzard has to be questioning whether they should make yet another MobA, with LoL and DotA2 being so successful, or whether they need some new beast. In terms of user interface, maybe it should be completely new and not tied to SC2, or perhaps it's a stepping stone to reinventing SC2 while introducing something new and fantastic.
I can dream, anyways. But it does make sense for Blizzard to try something new rather than just add a MOBA that's almost guaranteed not to be nearly as successful as the other two already are.
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If StarCraft 2 fails to continue as a popular professional e-sport then I will attribute it solely to poor game design and poor managing of race distribution and balance. I myself can't bring myself to play this game anymore because of the addition of units like the widow mine and the swarm hosts. Free units, and RNG no-micro based units just make this game annoying. Of course this is my opinion, which means you could disagree, but I know that this is at least the reason myself and a few of my masters friends stopped playing.
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I just wanted to say that I'm not really into mobas but my friends told me to check out TI2 through the dota2 client and I was blown away by the options I have as a spectator. Choosing the observer, observing on my own with free camera, observing through first person view of each player etc. Simply the best viewing experience I've had of any e-sport event so far. How I would love to watch Innovation vs Soulkey or something and had the option to view from their perspective :<
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sc2 is on its period relax, we passionate fans won't leave suddenly!
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Blizzard have engineered their own downfall with SC2. It's getting blown out of the water by Dota. The viewer experience for events is extremely average.
It makes me sad, I loved mid-early WoL. Oh well, Blizzard deserve it.
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On August 10 2013 08:42 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 07:48 {ToT}ColmA wrote: the only important question for blizzard right now is probably why a casual player like me who is losing 30 games in a row gets 2000p master league players and then plays gm players, the logic behind that is mindboggling judging by your icon you play terran so there's your answer. : ) @ topic: in my opinion hots has been a complete disaster. not even purely balance wise, that of course was to be expected really from a new game. the fact that they pretty much didn't patch anything major almost half a year afte release is absolutely mind boggling. but the real story is hots didn't change ANY of the outside of balance great disappointments people had with WOL. death ball. turtling. too much aoe and spell casting. too little unit micro. terrible terrible damage. some of these issues got even worse. like: people don't like to watch 50 min no attack bl infestor spine turtle games. I KNOW! let's make broodlord a completely unviable unit but add another unit that does the exact same thing broods used to do! except even slower! and more boring! and longer!! it's gonna be totally awesome!!!!! hydras suck eh? LETS MAKE THEM FASTER!!!! OH AND WHILE WERE AT IT MAKE MUTA FASTER! AND MEDIVAC! TANK IS TOO SLOW, DELETE IT. ADD MINE, ITS FAST! PROTOSS DONT DO SO WELL? MAKE PRISM FASTER! MAKE EVERYTHING FASTER !!!!!!!!!!! ITS PERFECT! people dont like the balance? we designed a ladder system to give everyone 50% win rates. therefore ladder win rates are 50% PERFECT BALANCE WHATS THAT? YOU WANT TO BROADCAST A TOURNAMENT? WELL YOU BETTER BUY A LICENSE SO YOUR MONEY SINK COSTS EVEN MORE BRO LOL! User was warned for this post
the guy is right, why did you warn him?
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On August 10 2013 10:43 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 08:42 willstertben wrote:On August 10 2013 07:48 {ToT}ColmA wrote: the only important question for blizzard right now is probably why a casual player like me who is losing 30 games in a row gets 2000p master league players and then plays gm players, the logic behind that is mindboggling judging by your icon you play terran so there's your answer. : ) @ topic: in my opinion hots has been a complete disaster. not even purely balance wise, that of course was to be expected really from a new game. the fact that they pretty much didn't patch anything major almost half a year afte release is absolutely mind boggling. but the real story is hots didn't change ANY of the outside of balance great disappointments people had with WOL. death ball. turtling. too much aoe and spell casting. too little unit micro. terrible terrible damage. some of these issues got even worse. like: people don't like to watch 50 min no attack bl infestor spine turtle games. I KNOW! let's make broodlord a completely unviable unit but add another unit that does the exact same thing broods used to do! except even slower! and more boring! and longer!! it's gonna be totally awesome!!!!! hydras suck eh? LETS MAKE THEM FASTER!!!! OH AND WHILE WERE AT IT MAKE MUTA FASTER! AND MEDIVAC! TANK IS TOO SLOW, DELETE IT. ADD MINE, ITS FAST! PROTOSS DONT DO SO WELL? MAKE PRISM FASTER! MAKE EVERYTHING FASTER !!!!!!!!!!! ITS PERFECT! people dont like the balance? we designed a ladder system to give everyone 50% win rates. therefore ladder win rates are 50% PERFECT BALANCE WHATS THAT? YOU WANT TO BROADCAST A TOURNAMENT? WELL YOU BETTER BUY A LICENSE SO YOUR MONEY SINK COSTS EVEN MORE BRO LOL! User was warned for this post the guy is right, why did you warn him? Because while being completely wrong, he also managed to be an ass.
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One thing people fail to realize is that games like Dota2 and LoL, hell even WoW are all based on 'money over a period of time' meaning that your going to make tons of money over the course of a few years. Games like SC2 are simply 'buy 1 copy, done' meaning people like me have bought a single copy of SC2 and spent 50 dollars, but I've sunk over 500+ in WoW during all the years I use to play it during the Vanilla/BC era. Blizzard, like most, loves money and will make more money with WoW then SC2 over a course of time. This means more attention and focus MUST be put on WoW, more things to keep people interested, more balance for PvP and more things to add to the shop like 25 dollar mounts that people will buy by the thousands. SC2 has what...? Name changes... tournaments..? Nothing to keep people like me, to keep pumping money into that franchise.
LoL and Dota2 are perfect examples of super smart people, I'm talking about company's like Valve.. Make the game free, meaning you already get massive amounts of players off the bat, put tons of effort into the game and does amazing things like the compendium and the steam workshop.. meaning players like myself are going to be putting money into it over a course of time, rather then once off the bat and never again... like SC2..
I think this is the new era of money making in terms of games, Team Fortress 2 was the first start and it super successful. Use to cost 20-40 dollars, Valve opened up the shop on it for useless items like hats and dropped the price down to 5-10. Then when the realized they make more money overtime then people buying an actual copy, made it 100% free for life.
Blizzard is also going on this trend by making their new MMO free, but of course will have a shop in it. But things like SC2 and D3 are NEVER going to make more money then Dota2 or LoL and will never surpass their popularity again after the first big WoL boom.
Just ask yourself this. Why the hell would there be 3 expansions to a RTS game that people buy for the online experience... not the single player experience..
Simple answer, because we need to buy a copy of each one of those expansions.
It's all about money in the end and quite unfortunately SC2 will never live up to BW's success and to be quite frank I feel one day SC2 will be about as popular as something like counter-strike, just put on the back burner next to games like LoL/Dota2 that will simply grow enormous due to the F2P and very smart decision making and focus these company's like Valve are putting into the games.
On August 10 2013 10:29 cozzE wrote: Blizzard have engineered their own downfall with SC2. It's getting blown out of the water by Dota. The viewer experience for events is extremely average.
It makes me sad, I loved mid-early WoL. Oh well, Blizzard deserve it.
Had to edit this in because its exactly 100% true, they engineered their own downfall the way Blizzard is working SC2, it will never be what people want.
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On August 10 2013 04:33 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:14 Rabiator wrote:On August 10 2013 02:53 SinCitta wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote: Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start. As long as David Kim and Dustin Browder are still at the helm the problems will be the same ... because they are connected to the core design of the game. Stuff like "unit density" and "production capability" all lead to maximized dps which reduces the available time for a defender to react to attacks and this makes the game harder to play for new / lower skill players. LaLuSh mentioned the Infestor nerf, but what was the real problem with Fungal Growth? The problem was that it was easily chained back to back ... because Zerg had 25+ Infestors and lots of energy for Fungals. - What would happen if you couldnt control that many of them at the same time? - What would happen if there was no smartcast and you had to pick individual Infestors or waste lots of energy? - What would happen if your production and economy didnt allow you to get more than five Infestors? Fungal Growth would be less of a problem. Oh and ... - What would happen if the opponent started with spread out units instead of forcibly clumped up units? It is pretty easy to see that the really big problems are the ones which Blizzard completely ignores (because it would have been the wisest choice to fix them at the end of WoL). so people still want SC2 to be a BW clone? i think it would do more harm than good. BW fanboys would be a little happier, but there's a serious risk the player number would plummet. never thought about that? let me rephrase that. SC2 is a really really famous game right now. one of the best performing competitive games we have. the only competitive RTS we have. you wanna completely rework a game so many people love and you think it will attract more people because it's more like BW then? that's not a very sound plan, in my opinion. if you guys dont like SC2, why cant you just let it go? you're not pro anyway. go play BW. accept SC2 isnt BW2. i know it's hard. i have to accept CSGO isnt CS1.6 too. i know that feeling, trust me. Instead of bringing the stupid "oh you just want a BW clone" argument you should try to argue with the points I raised.
Why wouldnt Fungal Growth in its original instant version be totally fine if there was no smartcast? Why wouldnt Fungal Growth in its original instant version be totally fine if there was no auto unit-clumping? Why wouldnt Fungal Growth in its original instant version be totally fine if there was no ability to build 25+ Infestors easily? The whole conclusion from this is that a game with a lower unit density is much easier to balance and you can have more exciting attacks / spells. This makes the game more exciting and allows for more varied styles.
As long as you dont try to answer these questions and try to prove that the current SC2 mass army style is better then keep your stupid "oh you just want a BW clone" remarks to yourself. People who use that phrase have never ever tried to argue their point so far ... but maybe you are a first. So ... surprise me and try to answer the questions.
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A "complete rework" is NOT NECESSARY. All you need to do is - take out all economic and production speed boosts - introduce 12 unit selection limit - exchange clumped unit movement for spread out unit movement (but with the option to clump them up through micro) After that you just need to readjust some units (mostly the AoE ones) and you are done.
The whole point is that "lower unit density = less dps = more reaction time = more chance to micro". I usually bring the "2 Zerglings vs 2 Zerglings" example, because such a fight is just as exciting as 50 on both sides ... AND it is a true testament to skill when one player wins by keeping both his Zerglings alive. Massive armies only do one thing: reduce the response time to almost zero and this is rather bad for players of lower skill ... and thus the majority of players.
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It's funny back in the day Blizzard was on top releasing hit games one after the other. Diablo 2, Brood War, and Warcraft 3 all great games. Now look at them nothing but falling wow subscriptions, huge blunders with diablo 3, and sc2 has never become even equal to it's predecessor. What happened?
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#sorry in advance for any misspellings. Sc2 has it's downfalls I have to agree and mlg not covering Sc2 is sad but I have not seen a trend in declining viewers overall. Neither have a seen any statistic supporting such a notion.
However the game was originally designed for small map when the action was supposed to start early and keep on going. But that lead to straight out cheeses being predominate and one base pushing. I don't think anyone would had found that enjoyable to watch. So the maps were changed to fit a more competetive scene where the one basing and cheese builds would still be viable but not the only strategies.
What is most bothering to me about the games is the fundamental mechanics of sc2. The pathfinding, macro mechanics.
The pathfinding clumps up units making aoe damage much more effective.
The macro mechanics is balancing on the fine thread that every mechanics is in its own right broken. Warp-gates nullifies defenders advantage and makes it tremendously harder to prepare properly for attacks and all-ins. Larva inject give zerg extreme capabilities of remaxing and producing units and drones. Mules speed up terrans productions to such a degree that spending 550 for 3rd CC for mules and scv is generally safe + makes scv kind of obsolete late game.
Maps changes balance I think everyone can agree to that. In the current maps you are able to cap on mineral income on just three bases. This is somewhat in the core of the problem since that mean less engagement to secure key expansions and less activeness out on the map since you "need" three bases to secure income. And with the current meta maps you get relatively securable third by default. You can therefor max out on economy easily which lead to less engagement to secure key areas. Overall less interactions between the players and enormous macro potential which lead to death balling. One suggestion to fix this was made by Barrin and his low mineral patch maps(or what they were called). It was kind of neat but such a huge change to maps would shake up balance to the extent that they could be called different games. Some variation of this could be considered when making new maps with the current meta in mind.
I extremly doubt huge changes will be made to several unit such as swarm host, void rays. Swarn host turtle play is so boring, same as void ray turtle plays. Both those strats can go to hell. I really hate the colossus aswell but I have not played against it in ages since all protoss do on ladder is 2-base allining with or without immortals. Or they void ray turtle.
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Destiny's prophecy of sc2 dying has been fulfilled.
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The scene will never be at the same place it was in BW not because Blizzard doesn't care (a stupid idea in my opinion, when's the last time you saw someone not care at all about something they were funding millions into), or because the game is "broken", but because the way every sport operates is different today than it was 15 years ago. More internet connectivity, more interpersonal communication between fans and players, and better travel options make the game far more global and less "exclusive" than it has ever been.
As someone who made their foray into Starcraft with SC2 not BW though - I was 10 when I tried to play BW for the first time 10 years ago, and only being able to grab a few marines at a time was incredibly discouraging lol - many of the issues that I see being brought up with game design as the main problem seem to me to be either irrelevant or nitpicking due to the game not being the same as the one they grew up with. The game design is where it's at currently because, contrary to popular belief, Blizzard has spent a shit ton of time trying to make a game that appeases both to casual gamers and can be played at a Professional level and have relative balance at both levels, and to them the combination of increased speed and ease of unit control makes it game that can be successful at most skill levels. While I think the "true skill ceiling" may be less in SC2 than it was in BW, to me it's not that noticeable of a difference and the slight difference in skill ceiling allows for more competition of a higher level amongst "lower leveled players" aka non-pro's
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: SCII becoming less popular. By little or by much? I don't know. But you can't ignore the fact, that instead of developing we start to get at least stagnation, if not worse. I was trying to contact Blizzard for several reasons during WoL. The reasons were different. I didn't get response for my feedback even a single time. I tried to talk with stuff from Blizzard, but no success. Even special meetings which were made for such a "discussions" were just for "V" in their diaries, not for discussion. I still remeber how in august 2012 in Germany progamers gathered together and tried to discuss with David Kim infestors and their imbalance in very late game, but he simply refused to listen. During next several months after that - huge number terran/protoss players retired. Noone wants to loose just because it's almost impossible to win. Maybe, if he listened, that wouldn't happen.
So i am writing here the open letter to Blizzard. Maybe now, they will answer for at least some of those questions.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
SCII becoming less popular? Compared to what? Compared to when? Where are your numbers? Oh wait, you don't know. As to developing, what aspect of SC2 needs developing? To what and where? What stagnation?
As to why Blizzard did not want to talk to you during WOL, even if we only have your own word for it, why should that matter? Maybe they don't rate you and/or your feedback. In interviews, by players, casters, and Blizzard, it is clear that Blizzard does take on feedback by some in the game - maybe they value some opinion higher than others. If so, fair enough.
It's difficult to know what DK said/didn't say/could have said etc. More to the point, this is not WOL. And it's a long bow to claim that stacks of Terran/Protoss players (like who?) retired due to the Infestor in WOL. I find this a dubious claim, especially as HOTS was round the corner in the latter portion of 2012. Maybe they (whoever they are) quit for other reasons.
I think your questions, with the exception of 1 and 5 are reasonable. As to 1, I don't know how Blizzard is meant to answer that question, if it even deserves a response. As to 5 it is yet another whine by a mediocre foreign Terran and unfortunately takes away from any credibility your post may have had. But none of your questions are a cause to demand a response from Blizzard in the way you have contextualised it. You make it sound as if the SC2 world is about to fall in and something must be done! Worse your post encourages the same drivelling nonsense that clogs up this sub-forum all too frequently.
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I use to subscribe to gomtv during the first year of release. Both gsl and gstl. Now i only watch some game on youtube. I hardly ever log in to the game and play it. I think yhe game lose interests very fast as i remember i still play scbw untill the last day before sc2 released. One of reason, in my opinion, is that in sc bw, you can not know what will be the result when 2 army clash. In sc2, we kind of know an army will beat the other just looking at it composition.
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On August 10 2013 12:29 Elldar wrote: #sorry in advance for any misspellings. Sc2 has it's downfalls I have to agree and mlg not covering Sc2 is sad but I have not seen a trend in declining viewers overall. Neither have a seen any statistic supporting such a notion.
However the game was originally designed for small map when the action was supposed to start early and keep on going. But that lead to straight out cheeses being predominate and one base pushing. I don't think anyone would had found that enjoyable to watch. So the maps were changed to fit a more competetive scene where the one basing and cheese builds would still be viable but not the only strategies.
What is most bothering to me about the games is the fundamental mechanics of sc2. The pathfinding, macro mechanics.
The pathfinding clumps up units making aoe damage much more effective.
The macro mechanics is balancing on the fine thread that every mechanics is in its own right broken. Warp-gates nullifies defenders advantage and makes it tremendously harder to prepare properly for attacks and all-ins. Larva inject give zerg extreme capabilities of remaxing and producing units and drones. Mules speed up terrans productions to such a degree that spending 550 for 3rd CC for mules and scv is generally safe + makes scv kind of obsolete late game.
Maps changes balance I think everyone can agree to that. In the current maps you are able to cap on mineral income on just three bases. This is somewhat in the core of the problem since that mean less engagement to secure key expansions and less activeness out on the map since you "need" three bases to secure income. And with the current meta maps you get relatively securable third by default. You can therefor max out on economy easily which lead to less engagement to secure key areas. Overall less interactions between the players and enormous macro potential which lead to death balling. One suggestion to fix this was made by Barrin and his low mineral patch maps(or what they were called). It was kind of neat but such a huge change to maps would shake up balance to the extent that they could be called different games. Some variation of this could be considered when making new maps with the current meta in mind.
I extremly doubt huge changes will be made to several unit such as swarm host, void rays. Swarn host turtle play is so boring, same as void ray turtle plays. Both those strats can go to hell. I really hate the colossus aswell but I have not played against it in ages since all protoss do on ladder is 2-base allining with or without immortals. Or they void ray turtle.
+1 this, all of the problems are in the game
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I agree with all points, except the last one. The last one seems like a balance whine for terrans, which makes no sense with the topic at hand...
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Overall, I feel like SC2 is fine but LoL has SC2 beat in one key area LoL has also been successful at keeping a hack-free environment where as other games like CS GO and SC2 have frequent hackers especially at higher leagues. Although, it's not that bad since hackers tend to be terrible players.
Games I like to play now I stopped playing SC2 about 3 months ago. After 2 years of consistent laddering I eventually got bored. I guess I played too many games. While I think Hots is more balanced and has better gameplay than WOL, some of the design decisions in HOTS have made the game seem weird to me. Hellions being mechanical and biological is not intuitive. Harass options were buffed to a point of being ridiculous (hellbat drops and oracles until Terran learned to build early ebays). Widow mine design is way too similar to its predecessor. Vipers hard countered mech way too hard. I also dislike adding in slow moving super units like Tempest and Swarm Host. I really wish Blizzard would make units that don't encourage broodlord-infestor type playstyles.
I am really enjoy CS GO matchmaking currently despite the ragers/brazilians/hackers.
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
I would like to add some to this point, because this has been nagging me for some time. Actually, I registered just to post this (although I’ve lurking here for a long time). As a casual player I’m on the other side of the SC2 spectrum compared to progamers like Mr. Strelok, but I do love to watch SC2 tournaments, more so than I enjoy watching soccer or ice hockey these days. I like the new WCS format too with the three regions WCS Europe, WCS America and WCS Korea. It’s the first year with this format and, obviously, we can expect some teething problems. Let’s do a quick stock taking with some fresh data collected this morning from Liquipedia:
- EU – So far 61 players have earned a total of 31,575 WCS points (including non-WCS event). Of these, 11 are Koreans, and the Koreans have earned 9,400 points for a total share of 29.8%. On the other hand, there are no less than 50 European players representing 17 different countries who have managed to earn WCS points this season.
- AM – So far 57 players have earned a total of 34,600 WCS points (also including non-WCS event). Of the 57 players 24 are Koreans, and the Koreans have earned 24,825 of the points for a total share of 71.8%. 13 countries are represented, where 6 are in America (US (14 participants), Canada (3), Mexico (2), Chile, Argentina and Peru (1 each). Other countries include China, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, UK.
Conclusions:
- EU is rather well represented through 17 different countries, showing a huge potential for a broad fan base. There are certainly more countries that could join the list (Belarus, Italy, Switzerland, Turkey to mention a few), but it is not bad so far!
- The number of participants that are not from the region need to be limited. In the case of America this is very obvious, with half of the participants being Koreans. All players coming through the qualifiers are Korean. This cannot continue, if you want to build some interest for SC2 in Brazil, Jamaica, Uruguay and other countries in the region. Also in the EU the number of Koreans participating is a problem in my opinion, although not as pronounced perhaps as in AM. The qualifiers are difficult enough as it is and I fear people won’t even try if they know that half of the bracket will be filled with Koreans that will stomp them. WSC regions should be a place where the talent of the region itself battles it out, where the up-comers will have a chance to play against more experienced players from the same region in a very cool and well covered event, where spectators like me will have the opportunity to see new players coming up.
- East Asia obviously needs a region of its own. From China / Japan in the north to Australia / New Zealand in the south there is nowhere to go right now, so the WCS EA is a must in the future. Again, as a spectator I’d be very excited to discover talents from Singapore, Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia etc as well.
Suggestions to improve the situation:
- Revise the current policy on region swapping: Limit the number of participants from outside any given region to say a maximum of 2-3. A pre-qualifying event could be held if there is any need (and this could certainly be interesting to watch as well!). This will ensure at least 2-3 local heroes from each region in the grand final, thus keeping us fans from all over the world exited till the very end! It will also, I hope, provide the incentive for more local talent to practice for and test their skills in the regional qualifiers.
- As mentioned earlier, create WSC East Asia for 2014.
- Invitees to the WCS 2014 should be extended to people within the region only.
“So what about all those Koreans playing for EU / AM teams or other players playing for teams outside of their region? If this would be implemented it will be unfair to them.” someone will say I’m sure. No it won’t be unfair. They can fight for their spot as everyone else. It’s simply a matter of prioritizing. I’m sure most progamers can get on a flight now and then should it be required. If not, they will still have the chance to qualify (see 2 above).
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On August 10 2013 12:29 Elldar wrote: What is most bothering to me about the games is the fundamental mechanics of sc2. The pathfinding, macro mechanics.
The pathfinding clumps up units making aoe damage much more effective.
The macro mechanics is balancing on the fine thread that every mechanics is in its own right broken. Warp-gates nullifies defenders advantage and makes it tremendously harder to prepare properly for attacks and all-ins. Larva inject give zerg extreme capabilities of remaxing and producing units and drones. Mules speed up terrans productions to such a degree that spending 550 for 3rd CC for mules and scv is generally safe + makes scv kind of obsolete late game.
1. the pathfinding is awesome compared to bw and wc3 and it is your job as a good player to micro your units. Split them, arc them, dont run into aoe with balls. 2. Warpgate does not nullify defenders advantage. There is still a pylon needed that is either slightly away or can be attacked a bit easy, often it is not even possible to get an inbase pylon in rushes. There is still a ramp/choke that can be better defended. There is photon overcharge, the biggest buff to early protoss defense (in pvp)! There can be workers pulled to defend. 3. Saying the macro mechanics are so broken that they balance each other means they are not broken at all. Sure they are strong and it would be silly to play without them, but so are expansions. So you say expanding is broken as well, but it is balancing itself because every race can do it? Sounds silly to me, this is not "broken".
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GameHeart killed the viewing experience, at least for me.
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On August 10 2013 18:53 Stoffelhase wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 12:29 Elldar wrote: What is most bothering to me about the games is the fundamental mechanics of sc2. The pathfinding, macro mechanics.
The pathfinding clumps up units making aoe damage much more effective.
The macro mechanics is balancing on the fine thread that every mechanics is in its own right broken. Warp-gates nullifies defenders advantage and makes it tremendously harder to prepare properly for attacks and all-ins. Larva inject give zerg extreme capabilities of remaxing and producing units and drones. Mules speed up terrans productions to such a degree that spending 550 for 3rd CC for mules and scv is generally safe + makes scv kind of obsolete late game.
1. the pathfinding is awesome compared to bw and wc3 and it is your job as a good player to micro your units. Split them, arc them, dont run into aoe with balls. 2. Warpgate does not nullify defenders advantage. There is still a pylon needed that is either slightly away or can be attacked a bit easy, often it is not even possible to get an inbase pylon in rushes. There is still a ramp/choke that can be better defended. There is photon overcharge, the biggest buff to early protoss defense (in pvp)! There can be workers pulled to defend. 3. Saying the macro mechanics are so broken that they balance each other means they are not broken at all. Sure they are strong and it would be silly to play without them, but so are expansions. So you say expanding is broken as well, but it is balancing itself because every race can do it? Sounds silly to me, this is not "broken".
wtf? what are you talking about
How can u micro if the units you have cant do any micro? zealot, stalker for example, what are utalking about
2. They dont? One pylon? what if he have 5 pylons? What if he warps in, and holy god it takes 5sec to warp in, holy god......Not defenders advantage u dont even know what u are talking about
3. Saying the....macro..mechanics..are..broken..he say that because......They are!!!!!!
Having 50 larva lategame is not macro...its clicking on the mouse!!!!! They are broken, and it is one factor sc2 is declining (boring and stupid gameplay)
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1. splitting and flanking with zealots is not only possible but sometimes essential in max vs max fights. Stalker micro is key for holding any proxy, how can you say there is no micro at all involved?? Also in lategame, there is always improvement to perfect blinkplay. 2. All i said is that it does not NULLIFY all the defenders advantage. I gave you lots of points why, but you just chose to call me silly in some way. 3. I dont get what you want. Protoss can have 20-30 gates too if it goes to extremes. But why is that bad? Also there is a difference in my zerg macro abilities, the mediocre grandmaster player and world best zergs. Why? Because the simply have better macro and do better "clicking on the mouse".
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To be honest I don´t see the problems most of you guys have. There is plenty of SC2 content every single day! Mori09 for example, a german caster, has more viewers than he ever had before. We have a RO 16 with ~50k + viewers during the week. And imo it is not Blizzards fault that more and more people are playing LoL. It would be if you consider LoL or DOTA a RTS-Game but they are not. If you want to play tennis, you go and play tennis and then it does not matter how often you are told that hockey is better because it might easier to follow or because you can play with friends as a team. It occurs to me that most of the criticism is about the RTS-Genre in general. Not about SC2. Plus I don´t think that neither LoL nor DOTA are easier to get into. I tried both of them for countless (especially LoL because everyone seems to love it) hours and still I don´t have a clue what to do or what these games are about. Maybe I´m too stupid who knows... Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaars ago CSS was Esport #1 now it´s LoL. So what?! Times change, still there are more than enough players for SC 2.
I love the game the way it is. Maybe there is sth wrong with me. :X
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On August 10 2013 18:53 Stoffelhase wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 12:29 Elldar wrote: What is most bothering to me about the games is the fundamental mechanics of sc2. The pathfinding, macro mechanics.
The pathfinding clumps up units making aoe damage much more effective.
The macro mechanics is balancing on the fine thread that every mechanics is in its own right broken. Warp-gates nullifies defenders advantage and makes it tremendously harder to prepare properly for attacks and all-ins. Larva inject give zerg extreme capabilities of remaxing and producing units and drones. Mules speed up terrans productions to such a degree that spending 550 for 3rd CC for mules and scv is generally safe + makes scv kind of obsolete late game.
1. the pathfinding is awesome compared to bw and wc3 and it is your job as a good player to micro your units. Split them, arc them, dont run into aoe with balls. 2. Warpgate does not nullify defenders advantage. There is still a pylon needed that is either slightly away or can be attacked a bit easy, often it is not even possible to get an inbase pylon in rushes. There is still a ramp/choke that can be better defended. There is photon overcharge, the biggest buff to early protoss defense (in pvp)! There can be workers pulled to defend. 3. Saying the macro mechanics are so broken that they balance each other means they are not broken at all. Sure they are strong and it would be silly to play without them, but so are expansions. So you say expanding is broken as well, but it is balancing itself because every race can do it? Sounds silly to me, this is not "broken".
1. You can only micro so much before they auto-clump again and it mostly comes down to pre-battle preparations. Against spells like fungal, storm and emp the auto-clumping makes them so much better. And that is not something you run into emp and storm is instant casting and splitting units from storm is harder than casting good storms due to smartcast and easier interface. And protoss want to keep there units togheter and emp really abuse that too.
2. I think you don't know what defenders advantage mean. It is has to do with reinforcements not with defensive structures, the defender can noramlly reinforce easier than the attacker can but a warp-in outside the nat and that do not hold true any longer. Hence nullifies defenders advantage. Besides just because you theoratically can kill a forward pylon does not mean that it is possible.
3. I meant that they are broken if you look at them separately, and in different ways. In certain situations they were you can muster up 70 larva reflooding a max army, have no scvs that makes your army value higher than the other races or warp-in armies inside opponent base then yeah I think it makes the game coin-flippy and put other races in hard pressed situations.
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Blizzard is done for me, unless they would radically change their staff and management. If Riot or Valve would buy Starcraft brand that's when things would change for the better much quickly. I've lost almost all interest in Starcraft not only because of the game itself, and how it could be so much better if Blizzard implemented so many good community suggestions, but because it is apparent how poorly Blizzard is managing the game: Just comparing how good of a job Riot is doing with LoL makes SC2 laughable. And thus, i don't want to invest emotionally in a game that is doomed to fail sooner or later because the company that owns it, sucks.
Even though i much prefer RTS i actually started playing LoL because everything around the game is much better than SC2, making the first the better option.
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Oh, ask if they're gonna release a SCBW HD version, like how AoE HD got released lol
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I love sc2 more than any other game.
but with that said, blizzard and sc2 are doomed to fail as long as david kim and dustin browder are around.
I will not continue to support these know it alls with their piss poor decisions any longer. I have moved on from this game, sadly.
what a waste of 3 years of my time, it looked... so so promising too.
Enjoy it guys, this is about as good as it is gonna ever get because blizzard thinks they know it all.
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On August 10 2013 19:53 Elldar wrote: 2. I think you don't know what defenders advantage mean. It is has to do with reinforcements not with defensive structures, the defender can noramlly reinforce easier than the attacker can but a warp-in outside the nat and that do not hold true any longer. Hence nullifies defenders advantage. Besides just because you theoratically can kill a forward pylon does not mean that it is possible.
I think you don't know what defenders advatage mean. Sure reinforcement paths are a big thing here, but defenders advantage is literally anything that helps the defender such as a small ramp, highground vision benefits, the ability to pull workers into the fight, etc.. Also it is very common to deny proxypylons with speedlings or a defensive stalkerrush build, also reapers do that quite well, sure it does not succeed every game, but it is not as rare it sounds in your post.
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On August 10 2013 21:10 shivver wrote: I love sc2 more than any other game.
but with that said, blizzard and sc2 are doomed to fail as long as david kim and dustin browder are around.
I will not continue to support these know it alls with their piss poor decisions any longer. I have moved on from this game, sadly.
what a waste of 3 years of my time, it looked... so so promising too.
Enjoy it guys, this is about as good as it is gonna ever get because blizzard thinks they know it all.
The TL forums calling out Blizzard on being know-it-all.
Now I've seen everything.
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On August 10 2013 19:21 Stoffelhase wrote: 1. splitting and flanking with zealots is not only possible but sometimes essential in max vs max fights. Stalker micro is key for holding any proxy, how can you say there is no micro at all involved?? Also in lategame, there is always improvement to perfect blinkplay. 2. All i said is that it does not NULLIFY all the defenders advantage. I gave you lots of points why, but you just chose to call me silly in some way. 3. I dont get what you want. Protoss can have 20-30 gates too if it goes to extremes. But why is that bad? Also there is a difference in my zerg macro abilities, the mediocre grandmaster player and world best zergs. Why? Because the simply have better macro and do better "clicking on the mouse".
1. No u are wrong, zealots in max vs max fights cant really do anything.
Everything in starcraft can flank, and split How should i explain it
In a big battle, the zealots cant position themself cuz of so high damageout put from range units, there is no time for you react and their slow passive movement speed hinders this to. Charge in this case is so pure piss bad in a rts game like this They go on autopilot
EXCEPTIONS OFCOURSE and DEGREE SCALE
stalkers is the same way, how can they micro in big fights? Compare to bio of terran. Terran has huge power of his micro
And compare to broodwar, have you played that game? Zealots with higher movement speed(No charge) and less damageoutput overall they could position themself in big fights, in small fights there was more micro also
Everything could micro there
3. It is bad because the macroskill removes it, and gameplay stalls They are all broken in their own way, iam all for difference things but not when it comes to things like mules in lategame(Sacrafice scvs for bigger armee) Larva inject, can remax in an instant Protoss warpgate(can have instant reinforcement
These are cool and all but they ruin gameplay alot in the long run Have you played broodwar?
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On August 09 2013 19:04 BillGates wrote: Blizzard are too brazen, too bravado and they have this delusion that they are still the best and screw everybody, they don't know shit.
They've forgotten that they need to compete and compete against better companies these days like Valve and Riot and others, they still think this is 10 years ago where absolutely everyone adored Blizzard, but they are not, with the pay to play WOW, with no LAN for SC2, with the restricted regions for SC2 for so long, with the always online requirement for Diablo 3, with the terrible story telling in their new games, to some of the voice acting decisions like to change Kerrigan's original voice actor, to not listening to the fans, they are very much disliked.
They are so out of reality, they are so out of touch and unless they wake up and realize what a bunch of pricks they've become, its going to go downhill for them.
I mean the community can always change games, can always come up with better games than Blizzard like it did with Dota and like it did with tower defenses and other types of maps.
haha. wtf
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I think there will always be a (hard) core of SC II fans that love the game, that love to play and love to watch games. But for me as a yeah, as a gamer who plays really a lot but just at a casual level, yeah I admire the skill it takes to play SC 2, I played a lot when the game started, I played in both betas, was placed about a diamond level also when masters got introduced. Then played less because of work and then played even lesser because I felt how bad I got at playing without constantly playing or practicing stuff it just lost the appeal for me. Then I stopped playing, maybe played 1-2 games a week but was frenetically watching streams and tournaments that I loved.
But then Dota 2 came out. I got in the beta, I got friends of mine in the beta and it was just fun. You can have short games, play with friends chat. Controlling one hero is not as taxing as controlling an army and producing stuff. I also stopped watching SC 2 I have to admit. Now I watch Dota, the Dota 2 Internationals are just mind blowing great and fun. I even watch Dota streams, I only watch SC 2 if there is no Dota channel of interest online. In my opinion SC 2 is loosing the support of its casual players because the game is simply to taxing, mostly 1v1 where you can't really interact with friends and you as a casual don't play it because you get steamrolled by other players if you don't practice enough. Of course you get steam rolled when playing against another good Dota team, but it does not feel that bad. You can always get 1-2 kills or blame your team for the loss or whatever. It does not fell like omg, I have no detection because I forgot and now I am dead, qq cloaked banshees, darktemplar, hellbat dropp all that base building and droneing obliterated in seconds.
SC 2 in my opinion, to attract more people, has to get more casual friendly. Yeah I hear the snobs crying, boooo and no anc compared to broodwar SC2 is too easy and what not. But why not reduce the damage output so that battles last longer, why not increase vision a bit, why not make the game zoom out more. Make the game more dynamic, include more dynamic in units and how they work together and synergize, make research that matters and maybe let players choose from a technology path or what not. There are thousands of ideas.
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On August 10 2013 21:45 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 19:21 Stoffelhase wrote: 1. splitting and flanking with zealots is not only possible but sometimes essential in max vs max fights. Stalker micro is key for holding any proxy, how can you say there is no micro at all involved?? Also in lategame, there is always improvement to perfect blinkplay. 2. All i said is that it does not NULLIFY all the defenders advantage. I gave you lots of points why, but you just chose to call me silly in some way. 3. I dont get what you want. Protoss can have 20-30 gates too if it goes to extremes. But why is that bad? Also there is a difference in my zerg macro abilities, the mediocre grandmaster player and world best zergs. Why? Because the simply have better macro and do better "clicking on the mouse". 1. No u are wrong, zealots in max vs max fights cant really do anything. Everything in starcraft can flank, and split How should i explain it In a big battle, the zealots cant position themself cuz of so high damageout put from range units, there is no time for you react and their slow passive movement speed hinders this to. Charge in this case is so pure piss bad in a rts game like this They go on autopilot EXCEPTIONS OFCOURSE and DEGREE SCALE stalkers is the same way, how can they micro in big fights? Compare to bio of terran. Terran has huge power of his micro And compare to broodwar, have you played that game? Zealots with higher movement speed(No charge) and less damageoutput overall they could position themself in big fights, in small fights there was more micro also Everything could micro there 3. It is bad because the macroskill removes it, and gameplay stalls They are all broken in their own way, iam all for difference things but not when it comes to things like mules in lategame(Sacrafice scvs for bigger armee) Larva inject, can remax in an instant Protoss warpgate(can have instant reinforcement These are cool and all but they ruin gameplay alot in the long run Have you played broodwar? I'm not sure you really played sc2. Seems like to me you're just another die hard bw fan and couldn't fully transition to sc2, because otherwise you'd have known that microing zealots is far easier than in bw. It's just that I think most protons players are so fucking lazy and they don't want to put at least 3 hotkeys for units alone...
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On August 09 2013 19:04 BillGates wrote: Blizzard are too brazen, too bravado and they have this delusion that they are still the best and screw everybody, they don't know shit.
Couldnt disagree with you more... The Blizzard i've known since i started playing WoW back in da days and to recent years they always listened to players and always had lovely GM's ingame with fast response etc, its not the picture you got to say the least. You cant find a better company than blizzard when it comes to quality and caring about fans etc.
It also seems ppl in general are afraid of that sc2 is dying, this is absolutley not the case, theres no reason to worry. Don't worry be happy!
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On August 10 2013 22:41 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 21:45 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 19:21 Stoffelhase wrote: 1. splitting and flanking with zealots is not only possible but sometimes essential in max vs max fights. Stalker micro is key for holding any proxy, how can you say there is no micro at all involved?? Also in lategame, there is always improvement to perfect blinkplay. 2. All i said is that it does not NULLIFY all the defenders advantage. I gave you lots of points why, but you just chose to call me silly in some way. 3. I dont get what you want. Protoss can have 20-30 gates too if it goes to extremes. But why is that bad? Also there is a difference in my zerg macro abilities, the mediocre grandmaster player and world best zergs. Why? Because the simply have better macro and do better "clicking on the mouse". 1. No u are wrong, zealots in max vs max fights cant really do anything. Everything in starcraft can flank, and split How should i explain it In a big battle, the zealots cant position themself cuz of so high damageout put from range units, there is no time for you react and their slow passive movement speed hinders this to. Charge in this case is so pure piss bad in a rts game like this They go on autopilot EXCEPTIONS OFCOURSE and DEGREE SCALE stalkers is the same way, how can they micro in big fights? Compare to bio of terran. Terran has huge power of his micro And compare to broodwar, have you played that game? Zealots with higher movement speed(No charge) and less damageoutput overall they could position themself in big fights, in small fights there was more micro also Everything could micro there 3. It is bad because the macroskill removes it, and gameplay stalls They are all broken in their own way, iam all for difference things but not when it comes to things like mules in lategame(Sacrafice scvs for bigger armee) Larva inject, can remax in an instant Protoss warpgate(can have instant reinforcement These are cool and all but they ruin gameplay alot in the long run Have you played broodwar? I'm not sure you really played sc2. Seems like to me you're just another die hard bw fan and couldn't fully transition to sc2, because otherwise you'd have known that microing zealots is far easier than in bw. It's just that I think most protons players are so fucking lazy and they don't want to put at least 3 hotkeys for units alone...
What did u not understand? not about easy or hard to micro the zealots its that you cant I compare to broodwar to get you a picture, nothing else
Stop this shittalk u have "have u even played starcraft" "u seem to be another die hard bw fan" Its pathetic of you to write that
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I don't work for Blizzard, but I'll give it a go anyway.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
We are very happy with how Starcraft is developing. Heart of the Swarm has addressed a great many problems with the gameplay of Wings of Liberty. We are continuing to add features to battle.net. So many players competed for entry to WCS Europe and America that organisers could barely cope with the numbers. With WCS competitions in three regions, more people are watching more hours of Starcraft 2 than ever before. Obviously we want to continue making things better, but we are happy with our progress so far.
While we can learn a lot from other games it is important not to fall into the trap of thinking that for Starcraft to be successful it must "beat" them. DotA, LoL and World of Tanks are very different games to Starcraft, and many of the things that make them appeal to a wider audience are things we couldn't implement in Starcraft 2 without making it not Starcraft any more. We must focus on whether our game is successful and sustainable in its own right, not how successful it is compared to some other, completely different game.
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world?
There was no model for WCS that would have made everyone happy, or satisfied every possible thing people might have wanted from a global league. When devising WCS, we felt the most important thing was that every region have a credible league, that would not leave audiences feeling short-changed, and that would feed legitimate contenders into the global finals.
We would like to create more direct opportunities for young, up-and-coming players in the future, but right now we must be mindful of not diluting our focus. Meanwhile, the encouragement WCS gives to all upcoming talent is the promise that if you make it in your home region, you no longer have to move to live in Korea before you can face a top tier of opponents or have your achievements taken seriously.
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
The balance between WCS and independent events is something we are still working on. The demand for WCS events to be broadcast live and in their entirety (witness the outcry when the qualifiers in Europe and USA were not covered to the satisfaction of the community) makes it hard for us to meet a balance between properly running our own league, while giving others room to breathe. It is something we are still working on.
Still, there are a great many healthy offline and online events around the world, the largest of which now have the additional draw of being able to reward WCS points.
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
Our experience with "general chat" in games is that it quickly becomes full of spam and abuse, and is actively hostile to newcomers. While many players look back on the chat system of Brood War with fond nostalgia, we honestly don't believe reintroducing it would address a real problem with the game.
While they're still different games, it is worth noting that neither DotA2 nor LoL places players in a general chat by default.
Fans and players have plenty of places to congregate online and find each other, from the official forums, to reddit, to TeamLiquid.net, to twitch.tv to countless fan-sites and gaming forums, none of which existed when Brood War was released. Players are already more likely to join chat channels around these kinds of communities than they are to try to seek out purely regional channels.
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
We are concerned about the issue, but we believe balance at the very top level of play is our highest priority. Currently, seven of the sixteen WCS Global Finals spots are held by Terrans. Making a balance change that would buff Terran at the mid-GM level but not make Terran unbeatable at the highest level of competition is something we must address very, very carefully.
Thanks for your questions,
Fake Blizzard
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On August 10 2013 21:22 Stoffelhase wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 19:53 Elldar wrote: 2. I think you don't know what defenders advantage mean. It is has to do with reinforcements not with defensive structures, the defender can noramlly reinforce easier than the attacker can but a warp-in outside the nat and that do not hold true any longer. Hence nullifies defenders advantage. Besides just because you theoratically can kill a forward pylon does not mean that it is possible.
I think you don't know what defenders advatage mean. Sure reinforcement paths are a big thing here, but defenders advantage is literally anything that helps the defender such as a small ramp, highground vision benefits, the ability to pull workers into the fight, etc.. Also it is very common to deny proxypylons with speedlings or a defensive stalkerrush build, also reapers do that quite well, sure it does not succeed every game, but it is not as rare it sounds in your post.
No reinforcements is the biggest thing, positioning concers both players and the attacking player can choose to engage wherever he want aswell. With forcefields the positioning of the defender is also weakend so over the board the protoss can nullify the defenders advantage.
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On August 11 2013 01:21 carlfish wrote:I don't work for Blizzard, but I'll give it a go anyway. Show nested quote + 1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
We are very happy with how Starcraft is developing. Heart of the Swarm has addressed a great many problems with the gameplay of Wings of Liberty. We are continuing to add features to battle.net. So many players competed for entry to WCS Europe and America that organisers could barely cope with the numbers. With WCS competitions in three regions, more people are watching more hours of Starcraft 2 than ever before. Obviously we want to continue making things better, but we are happy with our progress so far. While we can learn a lot from other games it is important not to fall into the trap of thinking that for Starcraft to be successful it must "beat" them. DotA, LoL and World of Tanks are very different games to Starcraft, and many of the things that make them appeal to a wider audience are things we couldn't implement in Starcraft 2 without making it not Starcraft any more. We must focus on whether our game is successful and sustainable in its own right, not how successful it is compared to some other, completely different game. Show nested quote + 2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world?
There was no model for WCS that would have made everyone happy, or satisfied every possible thing people might have wanted from a global league. When devising WCS, we felt the most important thing was that every region have a credible league, that would not leave audiences feeling short-changed, and that would feed legitimate contenders into the global finals. We would like to create more direct opportunities for young, up-and-coming players in the future, but right now we must be mindful of not diluting our focus. Meanwhile, the encouragement WCS gives to all upcoming talent is the promise that if you make it in your home region, you no longer have to move to live in Korea before you can face a top tier of opponents or have your achievements taken seriously. Show nested quote + 3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
The balance between WCS and independent events is something we are still working on. The demand for WCS events to be broadcast live and in their entirety (witness the outcry when the qualifiers in Europe and USA were not covered to the satisfaction of the community) makes it hard for us to meet a balance between properly running our own league, while giving others room to breathe. It is something we are still working on. Still, there are a great many healthy offline and online events around the world, the largest of which now have the additional draw of being able to reward WCS points. Show nested quote + 4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
Our experience with "general chat" in games is that it quickly becomes full of spam and abuse, and is actively hostile to newcomers. While many players look back on the chat system of Brood War with fond nostalgia, we honestly don't believe reintroducing it would address a real problem with the game. While they're still different games, it is worth noting that neither DotA2 nor LoL places players in a general chat by default. Fans and players have plenty of places to congregate online and find each other, from the official forums, to reddit, to TeamLiquid.net, to twitch.tv to countless fan-sites and gaming forums, none of which existed when Brood War was released. Players are already more likely to join chat channels around these kinds of communities than they are to try to seek out purely regional channels. Show nested quote + 5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
We are concerned about the issue, but we believe balance at the very top level of play is our highest priority. Currently, seven of the sixteen WCS Global Finals spots are held by Terrans. Making a balance change that would buff Terran at the mid-GM level but not make Terran unbeatable at the highest level of competition is something we must address very, very carefully. Thanks for your questions, Fake Blizzard
Kudos on these responses: well thought out, sound and fair. I can imagine Blizzard responding in this way.
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My problem with Sc2 right now is there is literally no 1v1 competition and that forces people like me who don't really care about fighting games to play Sc2 or don't be competitive.
Dota 2 would be my second choice but finding a team and competing in that game is near impossible for someone anti social like me.
Sc2 will always exist as long as there is no other 1v1 alternative.
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On August 10 2013 23:26 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 22:41 RaiZ wrote:On August 10 2013 21:45 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 19:21 Stoffelhase wrote: 1. splitting and flanking with zealots is not only possible but sometimes essential in max vs max fights. Stalker micro is key for holding any proxy, how can you say there is no micro at all involved?? Also in lategame, there is always improvement to perfect blinkplay. 2. All i said is that it does not NULLIFY all the defenders advantage. I gave you lots of points why, but you just chose to call me silly in some way. 3. I dont get what you want. Protoss can have 20-30 gates too if it goes to extremes. But why is that bad? Also there is a difference in my zerg macro abilities, the mediocre grandmaster player and world best zergs. Why? Because the simply have better macro and do better "clicking on the mouse". 1. No u are wrong, zealots in max vs max fights cant really do anything. Everything in starcraft can flank, and split How should i explain it In a big battle, the zealots cant position themself cuz of so high damageout put from range units, there is no time for you react and their slow passive movement speed hinders this to. Charge in this case is so pure piss bad in a rts game like this They go on autopilot EXCEPTIONS OFCOURSE and DEGREE SCALE stalkers is the same way, how can they micro in big fights? Compare to bio of terran. Terran has huge power of his micro And compare to broodwar, have you played that game? Zealots with higher movement speed(No charge) and less damageoutput overall they could position themself in big fights, in small fights there was more micro also Everything could micro there 3. It is bad because the macroskill removes it, and gameplay stalls They are all broken in their own way, iam all for difference things but not when it comes to things like mules in lategame(Sacrafice scvs for bigger armee) Larva inject, can remax in an instant Protoss warpgate(can have instant reinforcement These are cool and all but they ruin gameplay alot in the long run Have you played broodwar? I'm not sure you really played sc2. Seems like to me you're just another die hard bw fan and couldn't fully transition to sc2, because otherwise you'd have known that microing zealots is far easier than in bw. It's just that I think most protons players are so fucking lazy and they don't want to put at least 3 hotkeys for units alone... What did u not understand? not about easy or hard to micro the zealots its that you cant I compare to broodwar to get you a picture, nothing else Stop this shittalk u have "have u even played starcraft" "u seem to be another die hard bw fan" Its pathetic of you to write that Have you ever played bw at a very competitive level? I'm talking back when there was still like 1000 Koreans on the top 1000 of iccup ? Probably not. Sc2 at a competitive level ? Maybe. But you say I dont know what I'm talking about ? Because let me tell you that you cant micro the mass zealot either when you're in a big fight except maybe some zealots bombs but then you can do that too with sc2. Thing is it simply doesn't work the same way. It's just silly to compare these 2 games. And that's what you did. Edit : Sorry for being harsh, but listen, I'm a little sick of ppl comparing bw and sc2 when it's not really the same game tbh... If you want a perfect example of your comparaison then i can talk about the stalkers and the dragoons if you want : how many of right clicks do you need in order to put, say, 12 dragoons up in a small ramp without them fucking their path up ? Probably ten times more than moving the stalkers... And I didn't even mention about blink. That's what you're trying to compare : The zealots of bw that don't have charge compared to sc2. They just don't work the same way.
So yeah, I'm sorry, but if you want to compare this game with bw, then try to talk about the interface or the possibility of being played in lans. There I'd agree with you @ 100%
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On August 10 2013 18:53 Stoffelhase wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 12:29 Elldar wrote: What is most bothering to me about the games is the fundamental mechanics of sc2. The pathfinding, macro mechanics.
The pathfinding clumps up units making aoe damage much more effective.
The macro mechanics is balancing on the fine thread that every mechanics is in its own right broken. Warp-gates nullifies defenders advantage and makes it tremendously harder to prepare properly for attacks and all-ins. Larva inject give zerg extreme capabilities of remaxing and producing units and drones. Mules speed up terrans productions to such a degree that spending 550 for 3rd CC for mules and scv is generally safe + makes scv kind of obsolete late game.
1. the pathfinding is awesome compared to bw and wc3 and it is your job as a good player to micro your units. Split them, arc them, dont run into aoe with balls. 2. Warpgate does not nullify defenders advantage. There is still a pylon needed that is either slightly away or can be attacked a bit easy, often it is not even possible to get an inbase pylon in rushes. There is still a ramp/choke that can be better defended. There is photon overcharge, the biggest buff to early protoss defense (in pvp)! There can be workers pulled to defend. 3. Saying the macro mechanics are so broken that they balance each other means they are not broken at all. Sure they are strong and it would be silly to play without them, but so are expansions. So you say expanding is broken as well, but it is balancing itself because every race can do it? Sounds silly to me, this is not "broken". Pure ignorance.
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On August 10 2013 23:16 MidnightZL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:04 BillGates wrote: Blizzard are too brazen, too bravado and they have this delusion that they are still the best and screw everybody, they don't know shit. Couldnt disagree with you more... The Blizzard i've known since i started playing WoW back in da days and to recent years they always listened to players and always had lovely GM's ingame with fast response etc, its not the picture you got to say the least. You cant find a better company than blizzard when it comes to quality and caring about fans etc. It also seems ppl in general are afraid of that sc2 is dying, this is absolutley not the case, theres no reason to worry. Don't worry be happy! ROFL ... WoW GMs are not the same as Blizzards SC2 devs. The job of a GM is to listen to the customer and make him feel happy, but that isnt the same behaviour which David Kim and Dustin Browder are showing. One of them has explained that we want the deathball and the other has explained that they think that mech is boring and thus they would keep its viability below that of bio on purpose. They also didnt understand the point of the "dynamic unit movement" at all ...
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Starcraft is a game with a a perpendicular learning curve. It gets steeper the more you learn.
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On August 10 2013 23:16 MidnightZL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:04 BillGates wrote: Blizzard are too brazen, too bravado and they have this delusion that they are still the best and screw everybody, they don't know shit. Couldnt disagree with you more... The Blizzard i've known since i started playing WoW back in da days and to recent years they always listened to players and always had lovely GM's ingame with fast response etc, its not the picture you got to say the least. You cant find a better company than blizzard when it comes to quality and caring about fans etc. It also seems ppl in general are afraid of that sc2 is dying, this is absolutley not the case, theres no reason to worry. Don't worry be happy! just compare riot or valve and you would know what a real loving company is like
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On August 11 2013 13:31 plogamer wrote: Starcraft is a game with a a perpendicular learning curve. It gets steeper the more you learn. Starcraft is a game which is random at lower levels because the result of a battle depends a lot on "Was the defender looking when the attacker started to attack or not?" Only when your reflexes and attention are trained and reduced enough by constant practice can you have stable games. Other deciding questions for mid and low level players are "Did the defender notice that I am switching to produce a massive army or not?", "Did the defender scout my proxy Oracle and produce enough defense against it?", ...
Starcraft 2 is designed to have a lot of production and a lot of ways to make a "defensive position" useless. Sure enough this adds to the aggression, but it kills the need for strategy.
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On August 11 2013 13:19 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 23:16 MidnightZL wrote:On August 09 2013 19:04 BillGates wrote: Blizzard are too brazen, too bravado and they have this delusion that they are still the best and screw everybody, they don't know shit. Couldnt disagree with you more... The Blizzard i've known since i started playing WoW back in da days and to recent years they always listened to players and always had lovely GM's ingame with fast response etc, its not the picture you got to say the least. You cant find a better company than blizzard when it comes to quality and caring about fans etc. It also seems ppl in general are afraid of that sc2 is dying, this is absolutley not the case, theres no reason to worry. Don't worry be happy! ROFL ... WoW GMs are not the same as Blizzards SC2 devs. The job of a GM is to listen to the customer and make him feel happy, but that isnt the same behaviour which David Kim and Dustin Browder are showing. One of them has explained that we want the deathball and the other has explained that they think that mech is boring and thus they would keep its viability below that of bio on purpose. They also didnt understand the point of the "dynamic unit movement" at all ...
To be fair, their main job is not really to cater to the TL/BW crowd. SC2 would have sold a lot less copies if it was just a graphics update of BW which is what a lot of the hardcore BWer wanted. But in reality, they make up a tiny percentage of the customer base for SC2. People here on TL might hate the deathball, mules etc, but it has little or no effect on game sales.
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On August 11 2013 14:34 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 13:19 Rabiator wrote:On August 10 2013 23:16 MidnightZL wrote:On August 09 2013 19:04 BillGates wrote: Blizzard are too brazen, too bravado and they have this delusion that they are still the best and screw everybody, they don't know shit. Couldnt disagree with you more... The Blizzard i've known since i started playing WoW back in da days and to recent years they always listened to players and always had lovely GM's ingame with fast response etc, its not the picture you got to say the least. You cant find a better company than blizzard when it comes to quality and caring about fans etc. It also seems ppl in general are afraid of that sc2 is dying, this is absolutley not the case, theres no reason to worry. Don't worry be happy! ROFL ... WoW GMs are not the same as Blizzards SC2 devs. The job of a GM is to listen to the customer and make him feel happy, but that isnt the same behaviour which David Kim and Dustin Browder are showing. One of them has explained that we want the deathball and the other has explained that they think that mech is boring and thus they would keep its viability below that of bio on purpose. They also didnt understand the point of the "dynamic unit movement" at all ... To be fair, their main job is not really to cater to the TL/BW crowd. SC2 would have sold a lot less copies if it was just a graphics update of BW which is what a lot of the hardcore BWer wanted. But in reality, they make up a tiny percentage of the customer base for SC2. People here on TL might hate the deathball, mules etc, but it has little or no effect on game sales. Oh please ... stop the stupid "BW HD" nonsense. You arent really thinking it through and accept all the stupid stuff which Blizzard added to SC2 which is actually worse than BW. Sure enough there are improvements, but the logic of "unlimited unit control makes the game easier and thus better" is completely false for example. The same is true for the tight unit movement and the hyper production and together these things make SC2 much harder to balance and turn it into a game where coinflip and critical numbers (which arent balanced units anymore) decide games.
Blizzard decided to start with a blank sheet of paper when they began to develop SC2 and they just dumped some units and stuff from BW on it and threw the rest away. That wasnt a wise choice, because they had to figure out a new balance for the game instead of taking the old one and just adding some improvements to it and a few new units. Because of your opinion they had to remove lots of units that made sense and replaced them by stupid ones: - Goliath is better than the Thor in useability and damage, - Valkyrie and Wraith make more sense than Viking and Banshee and the same might be said about Protoss air, - the free unit generating Broodlord is absolutely stupid compared to the Guardian and morphing the high tech stuff from Mutalisks makes more sense than adding another "AA only but useless otherwise" unit which you had to build even though the enemy doesnt have anything in the air worth shooting, - the Medic had to go and thus they had to change the healer and invented the need for the Medivac ... the same for the Queen, which needed a redesign due to spawn larvae - adding asymmetrical production speed boosts on top of asymmetrical production is really really stupid ...
In "The Two Towers" the dwarf Gimli and his friend Legolas find the "caves" in which the Rohirrim just hide their women and children in and to the dwarf this is a marvelous place of beauty. He says that more dwarves would come to the place and improve it with a single tiny chip with a very small pickaxe once every month. Well Blizzard didnt do that and they went to the cave with a few sticks of dynamite and just took the biggest pieces that were left over and tried to arrange them so it makes some sense. Well the end result doesnt look as pretty as it could have been if they had behaved like dwarves ...
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Dear Blizzard, Do you think people like starcraft for the simple fact that it gives them SO MUCH to complain about.. Or do you think that they actually enjoy playing the game?
As a bonus question: Do you think people complaining about the game "dying" are just scared because they've invested so much effort into this that they don't have any other skill sets in which to use to make money?
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Starcraft 2 is a good game, but it would probably be alot better with more time to react and a "slower" phase of battles etc, which would lead to a higher skill ceiling and less all-in playstyles. It would take away the focus of having two big armies clashing together on the map and the victor of the battle wins the game 95% of the time. Rather it would encourage more multitasking and "mini battles" around the map.
Sadly enough, these types of changes will never happen, those kinds of things had to be implemented when they made the game in the first place, its to late now. Believing in Blizzard to look into these massive changes, is like believing in santa.
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote: 4. Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors? You can still race pick in SC2 like you did in BW. You join a custom game lobby (as you did in BW), pick your race (as you did in BW), and play the match (as you did in BW).
The reason that it's not very useful to do that in the matchmaking feature that's unique to SC2 is because both players would have these racial settings and they wouldn't always agree.
Bnet: Player 1 would like to play Protoss Bnet: Player 2 prefers to play Terran against Protoss Bnet: Player 1 prefers to play Zerg against Terran Bnet: Player 2 prefers to play Terran against Zerg Bnet: Player 1 prefers to play Protoss against Terran
And so on. The way to break out of that loop would be to choose the default choices for both players, which is what already happens.
You could also just not match disagreeing players with one another, but that'd hurt the matchmaking times.
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I can log in once a month and play a 1-2 hour long League of Legends game. If I only log in once a month to ladder in sc2, the games would be much shorter and much less fun.
Unless you play sc2 regularly with a focus on pure mechanics, you just can't ladder like you can with a MOBA game. Now I'm not a big fan of MOBA games, I remember the first time I played Defense of the Ancients in WC3 and being bore that it wasn't Aeon of Strife. But I can still log in to a LoL game and play for an hour running around the map, pokin at minions, and dying in team fights. I'll still lose, but even while losing I can run around and play the game. This is not the same as SC2 and even less so with BW.
People keep referencing how the Starcraft scene would be better if it was more like BW, forgetting that the BW foreign scene was EVEN FURTHER BEHIND than the sc2 foreign is. If sc2 was more like BW it wouldn't even be compared to LoL or Dota2 but be instead considered some niche nostalgia game that only a small market base affects. The only reason SC2 is this popular is *because* of its easy interface.
Sc2 isn't behind because it isn't F2play and it isn't behind because its not like BW; it's behind because less people are able to just pick and ladder with it the way they can just pick up and ladder a MOBA game.
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It was those moments of nostalgia of remembering early brood war days. Where everybody played Broodwar from all over the world in PC cafes, college dorms, or private bedrooms. There were no online restrictions to location and battle.net did not hinder the online experience of SC. As well, battles from people around the world, due to its great gameplay, was a site and incredible experience. Starcraft music was well designed which added to the experience, the music was under-rated for sure. The game SC was also cheaper and easier to pick up and play than SCII.
Things have gone down hill and competition is stepping up. So many possible options to improve SC like team play, fremium models, ability to add dynamics to gameplay or make the game balanced with each race, larger prize money for the major tournaments has not been employed by Blizzard. The lack of true evolution in gameplay and options is hindering the game of Starcraft.
Starcraft should not be struggling like what we are witnessing now. The game SC possess inbuilt, ingrained advantages over LoL and Dota because the concept of SC is beautiful and simple to understand. Claim your territory, build your economy and kick the other competitor out of the domain or planet. The concept of Starcraft is relatable to the real world and of course is very relateable to our past and future. Other computer games don't have that beautiful political bent that SC conveys to the gamer. And watching a terran dominion vs an Insectoid race vs an advanced alien race draws great interest from all sort of science fiction fans and average people too. Humanity could one day, in a billion years, possibly accept the invasion of an advanced alien race trying to conquer the terran planet and vice versa with Terrans invading alien planets. Gamers can even stretch out their imagination further to the concept of some hideous larva like race that desires to infect the whole galaxy, with Kerrigan at their helm.
That wild thought provoking imagination drawn from the concept of Starcraft, which captured the hearts of people all over earth, can not be transferred to pure fantasy war games like LoL or Dota. The concept or premise of Dota and LoL do not translate to our world in Earth. The characters do not play a political angle to the conflict. The characters are purely fantastical and drawn from the ethereal minds of men. If a comparison of SC and LoL boiled down to the ability to capture imagination of the people, SC would win every time. SC2 is relatable to our world, and LoL is not. It's a timeless story, SC has designed. Us, Players just want to enjoy the epic that SC was meant to play out and become and evolve to.
It would be truly ashame if SC doesn't ascend back to the throne of epic board/RTS games of all time, it's rightful place. Even noobs like me loved BW, watching astonishing strategy with sizzling action. And I don't find the same enthusiam for LoL or dota. Those games do not relate to me except for the team concept. But where Blizzard has faultered, other companies have picked up the pieces that BLizzard left behind and are now succeeding at the expense of Starcraft. Hope Blizzard turns things around, and soon.
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On August 11 2013 16:40 Thieving Magpie wrote: I can log in once a month and play a 1-2 hour long League of Legends game. If I only log in once a month to ladder in sc2, the games would be much shorter and much less fun.
Unless you play sc2 regularly with a focus on pure mechanics, you just can't ladder like you can with a MOBA game. Now I'm not a big fan of MOBA games, I remember the first time I played Defense of the Ancients in WC3 and being bore that it wasn't Aeon of Strife. But I can still log in to a LoL game and play for an hour running around the map, pokin at minions, and dying in team fights. I'll still lose, but even while losing I can run around and play the game. This is not the same as SC2 and even less so with BW.
People keep referencing how the Starcraft scene would be better if it was more like BW, forgetting that the BW foreign scene was EVEN FURTHER BEHIND than the sc2 foreign is. If sc2 was more like BW it wouldn't even be compared to LoL or Dota2 but be instead considered some niche nostalgia game that only a small market base affects. The only reason SC2 is this popular is *because* of its easy interface.
Sc2 isn't behind because it isn't F2play and it isn't behind because its not like BW; it's behind because less people are able to just pick and ladder with it the way they can just pick up and ladder a MOBA game. I agree and disagree man. I play sc2 A LOT and play LOL once in a while. I played LOL for 2 weeks straight with some friends while on vacation and learned some of the ins and outs. But when I login to play with them it's usually not very fun unless I'm stoned because I won't get many kills and I generally won't know who counters who/what's going on.
So, for competitive minded people both games are bad if you don't put in the time. With LOL you can just blame the losses on your team and respawn anyway. With sc2, one mistake could mean the end of a 30 minute game in seconds.
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On August 11 2013 05:52 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 23:26 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 22:41 RaiZ wrote:On August 10 2013 21:45 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 19:21 Stoffelhase wrote: 1. splitting and flanking with zealots is not only possible but sometimes essential in max vs max fights. Stalker micro is key for holding any proxy, how can you say there is no micro at all involved?? Also in lategame, there is always improvement to perfect blinkplay. 2. All i said is that it does not NULLIFY all the defenders advantage. I gave you lots of points why, but you just chose to call me silly in some way. 3. I dont get what you want. Protoss can have 20-30 gates too if it goes to extremes. But why is that bad? Also there is a difference in my zerg macro abilities, the mediocre grandmaster player and world best zergs. Why? Because the simply have better macro and do better "clicking on the mouse". 1. No u are wrong, zealots in max vs max fights cant really do anything. Everything in starcraft can flank, and split How should i explain it In a big battle, the zealots cant position themself cuz of so high damageout put from range units, there is no time for you react and their slow passive movement speed hinders this to. Charge in this case is so pure piss bad in a rts game like this They go on autopilot EXCEPTIONS OFCOURSE and DEGREE SCALE stalkers is the same way, how can they micro in big fights? Compare to bio of terran. Terran has huge power of his micro And compare to broodwar, have you played that game? Zealots with higher movement speed(No charge) and less damageoutput overall they could position themself in big fights, in small fights there was more micro also Everything could micro there 3. It is bad because the macroskill removes it, and gameplay stalls They are all broken in their own way, iam all for difference things but not when it comes to things like mules in lategame(Sacrafice scvs for bigger armee) Larva inject, can remax in an instant Protoss warpgate(can have instant reinforcement These are cool and all but they ruin gameplay alot in the long run Have you played broodwar? I'm not sure you really played sc2. Seems like to me you're just another die hard bw fan and couldn't fully transition to sc2, because otherwise you'd have known that microing zealots is far easier than in bw. It's just that I think most protons players are so fucking lazy and they don't want to put at least 3 hotkeys for units alone... What did u not understand? not about easy or hard to micro the zealots its that you cant I compare to broodwar to get you a picture, nothing else Stop this shittalk u have "have u even played starcraft" "u seem to be another die hard bw fan" Its pathetic of you to write that Have you ever played bw at a very competitive level? I'm talking back when there was still like 1000 Koreans on the top 1000 of iccup ? Probably not. Sc2 at a competitive level ? Maybe. But you say I dont know what I'm talking about ? Because let me tell you that you cant micro the mass zealot either when you're in a big fight except maybe some zealots bombs but then you can do that too with sc2. Thing is it simply doesn't work the same way. It's just silly to compare these 2 games. And that's what you did. Edit : Sorry for being harsh, but listen, sick of ppl comparing bw and sc2 when it's not really the same game tbh...I'm a little If you want a perfect example of your comparaison then i can talk about the stalkers and the dragoons if you want : how many of right clicks do you need in order to put, say, 12 dragoons up in a small ramp without them fucking their path up ? Probably ten times more than moving the stalkers... And I didn't even mention about blink. That's what you're trying to compare : The zealots of bw that don't have charge compared to sc2. They just don't work the same way. So yeah, I'm sorry, but if you want to compare this game with bw, then try to talk about the interface or the possibility of being played in lans. There I'd agree with you @ 100%
Have you ever played bw at a very competitive level?
Why is this relevant to you?
But you say I dont know what I'm talking about ?
Because let me tell you that you cant micro the mass zealot either when you're in a big fight except maybe some zealots bombs but then you can do that too with sc2
Ok, now u start to be really annoying, you talk crap now
Compared to sc2, small fights = you can micro the zealot in bw alot more bigger fights = you can still do micro in bw
Against terran which goes mech You wanna drag the spider mines with a few zealots away from your pack
You also wanna send a few zealots to siegetank A, B, C Shuttledrop with zealotbombs
No micro? ......are u sure u know what ua re talking about?
Against zerg, he goes hydras u go speed zealots, no micro? What about u amove the zealots and when they come close you how should i say this: position your zealots so they become concave sort of, you also can attack and then move afterwards , so against zerg you can do alot of positioning in fights with them
You also can have them on hold position to block incoming units, you can do this to in sc2 but realitivly only with simcity and on choke(tbh on the choke how often do we see that in sc2)
In bw, holding position occurs more often, in a more releveant way and also out on the map
BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!! This is just one unit, everything in this game can do micro and not just kite but position is important (its important in sc2 to) but with position in a battle, engagement u can reposiiton your units so eventually you get a better position
People compare sc2 to bw, because sc2 is missing key parts of what an rts is about, its not that we want bw remake (tbh with path fixing, bug fixes, maybe a few additions, it would be godlike compared to sc2), we just want all the best ingredients which blizard has removed
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On August 11 2013 19:02 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 16:40 Thieving Magpie wrote: I can log in once a month and play a 1-2 hour long League of Legends game. If I only log in once a month to ladder in sc2, the games would be much shorter and much less fun.
Unless you play sc2 regularly with a focus on pure mechanics, you just can't ladder like you can with a MOBA game. Now I'm not a big fan of MOBA games, I remember the first time I played Defense of the Ancients in WC3 and being bore that it wasn't Aeon of Strife. But I can still log in to a LoL game and play for an hour running around the map, pokin at minions, and dying in team fights. I'll still lose, but even while losing I can run around and play the game. This is not the same as SC2 and even less so with BW.
People keep referencing how the Starcraft scene would be better if it was more like BW, forgetting that the BW foreign scene was EVEN FURTHER BEHIND than the sc2 foreign is. If sc2 was more like BW it wouldn't even be compared to LoL or Dota2 but be instead considered some niche nostalgia game that only a small market base affects. The only reason SC2 is this popular is *because* of its easy interface.
Sc2 isn't behind because it isn't F2play and it isn't behind because its not like BW; it's behind because less people are able to just pick and ladder with it the way they can just pick up and ladder a MOBA game. I agree and disagree man. I play sc2 A LOT and play LOL once in a while. I played LOL for 2 weeks straight with some friends while on vacation and learned some of the ins and outs. But when I login to play with them it's usually not very fun unless I'm stoned because I won't get many kills and I generally won't know who counters who/what's going on. So, for competitive minded people both games are bad if you don't put in the time. With LOL you can just blame the losses on your team and respawn anyway. With sc2, one mistake could mean the end of a 30 minute game in seconds.
I wasn't talking about "competitive minded people."
I was talking about the physical act of logging in and clicking on the screen. I can, at the very least, smack minions who mindlessly charge at me. I can, run around and throw heal/sheild spells at the carry and then run away when under attack. It might not lead to wins, but I can play a video game for an hour and if we lose I can just blame the other 4 players for doing exactly what I was doing.
If you have a competitive mindset and that feeling and drive to want to be good at something, then of course SC2 is okay. But if you're playing with a competitive mindset then you're no longer the casual player who just wants to log on 1-2 times a month when he feels like squeezing you into his Dragon Age/WoW/Animal Crossing/Fallout/Last of Us/etc.... routines. Casual gamers who simply enjoy playing a video game here and there. ie--the vast majority of people who play video games.
Its no surprise that there are more people playing LoL than SC2 if you have casuals in mind. I'm almost certain that if you simply concentrated the player base of both games into the "Serious competitive players" that there would be about as many on both sides. But add in casuals and a game like League or DOTA can at least allows players to just run around and play a video game for an hour; SC2 can't offer that, and BW offers even less.
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On August 11 2013 19:23 Foxxan wrote:People compare sc2 to bw, because sc2 is missing key parts of what an rts is about, its not that we want bw remake (tbh with path fixing, bug fixes, maybe a few additions, it would be godlike compared to sc2), we just want all the best ingredients which blizard has removed
BW was relatively non-existent as a competitive sport outside of Korea. The changes to SC2 has made Starcraft international by making it more accessible. LoL and Dota made themselves EVEN MORE accessible and hence are also much much bigger.
I hope you see where I'm going with this.
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On August 12 2013 00:25 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 19:23 Foxxan wrote:People compare sc2 to bw, because sc2 is missing key parts of what an rts is about, its not that we want bw remake (tbh with path fixing, bug fixes, maybe a few additions, it would be godlike compared to sc2), we just want all the best ingredients which blizard has removed BW was relatively non-existent as a competitive sport outside of Korea. The changes to SC2 has made Starcraft international by making it more accessible. LoL and Dota made themselves EVEN MORE accessible and hence are also much much bigger. I hope you see where I'm going with this. Divekick will be the most popular Esport ever?
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I'm not sure why sc2 is lagging behind Dota in terms of popularity. Possibly there was nothing blizz could have done about that. But my continual gripe with sc2 is that the battles finish way too quickly. Compared to BW AND to Warcraft 3. It doesn't matter that sc2 is a different game, but when battles are conducted in narrow chokes all the time, with moves that stifle micro and after big burst damage everything is killed in 1.2 seconds... it's not a good game design man. We want battles where the outcome is not certain 1 second into the battle ... and in which you can actually follow the action that is taking place. In SC2, 80% of the time you know who is gonna win the battle dominatingly before it even begins. And that other 20% it's really hard to follow the action that is taking place in the battle.
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On August 12 2013 00:41 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 00:25 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 11 2013 19:23 Foxxan wrote:People compare sc2 to bw, because sc2 is missing key parts of what an rts is about, its not that we want bw remake (tbh with path fixing, bug fixes, maybe a few additions, it would be godlike compared to sc2), we just want all the best ingredients which blizard has removed BW was relatively non-existent as a competitive sport outside of Korea. The changes to SC2 has made Starcraft international by making it more accessible. LoL and Dota made themselves EVEN MORE accessible and hence are also much much bigger. I hope you see where I'm going with this. Divekick will be the most popular Esport ever?
It had very big numbers in Evo for having no real scene and no real big names. Anything is possible.
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Have you ever played bw at a very competitive level?
rofl foxxan the old gosu is beating the shit out of you noob.
Death balls and the 2 second fights are one of various problems of sc2. Atleast its boring to watch.
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Can't you ask these questions to Blizzard on Blizzcon?
Maybe not at the panels but isn't Blizzard giving away interviews to various sites?
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@Strelok I agree with you on everything except the race picking. But maybe they could add an option where you can choose which matchups you want to play on matchmaking.
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