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Ladies and Gentlemen, the time has come to say adieu. We have worked hard and accomplished much. We have felt success, we have felt failure, and we have felt down right awkward at times. But that has not stopped us from succeeding in our goals. We forged our dreams and reached the pinnacle of level design success for Starcraft 2.
We are not leaving you empty handed, rather you are receiving one of the best of our efforts, Yeonsu, as a ladder map.
The following are the people we would like to give thanks to for their participation and or cooperation with us.
Nick "Scorp" Hansen--Creator of Atlas, Corey "eTcetRa"--Creator of Yeonsu, Justin "NewSunshine"--Creator of Phoenix Cluster, Teven "ArcticRaven"--Creator of Absolution, Adam "KingCorwin"--Creator of Israfel, Chris "ChanmanV" Chan, John Clark, Megan "Silvare", Kenny "Bullseye", Mona of the CSL, "Plexa" of Team Liquid, Tim Frazier--formerly IPL, now Blizzard Entertainment, "Cloaken" of Blizzard Entertainment, Richard Lewis, Felix "Lefix" of TPW, and any other persons we have not mentioned but have worked with. I cannot thank you enough for all the work and support you have given us over the past year.
The following is my personal anecdotes about creating, building, and finalizing a team of level designers for Starcraft 2, en full.
+ Show Spoiler +The creation of Dream Forge Maps began as a sincere goal of improving myself as a level designer for Starcraft 2 (map maker). During a time when map making was still developing towards an epitome of quality, there were only 3 serious groups of level designers and only 1 group was paid for their work professionally. These groups were Crux, The Planetary Workshop, and E-Sports Vision (ESV; formerly ICCUP). The map designer community had spurred itself into existence, providing its own measures of success via monthly tournaments that judged maps on various criteria including style, balance, and artistic quality. At this time, many non-associated map makers were struggling to break the barriers that these teams seemed to posses, and several voiced concerns, myself included, about judges predispositions to select team associated designers as the winners. This raucous grew so loud that the associated level designers became disgruntled and proclaimed that non-associated mapmakers should simply make their own team. I chose to approach several other independent but good designers to see if they would want to form a team with me. Thus, Dream Forge was born. At the outset of Dream Forge we all were concerned with 2 things: 1) Improving our individual merits by relying on each other as sources of education and criticism, and 2) Expanding our team. We grew quickly to a size of about 8 level designers and we were improving. We had not begun to see success of our maps, which we judged to be the inclusion of our maps into prominent tournaments. As a result of this and other life issues, our numbers dwindled over time with a core group of 5 of us remaining on the team. Out of frustration with our performance towards our goals, and feeling I was a lesser skilled level designer, I decided to begin working more as an administrator by promoting the collective work of our map team. This was in response to several discussions I had with Patrick “Diamond” Soulliere of E-Sports Vision. Whereas the other 3 big teams concentrated their promotional efforts towards large and highly valued tournaments such as Dream Hack, GSL, and MLG’s, I decided to take a grass roots approach and build our reputation up from the bottom. Little did I realize that administrator’s work is not sprinting – rather it is a marathon. Through this effort, we gained our first success by my contact with the creators of the Day9 sponsored Prodigy Cup. I knew right from the start that no tournament would give a second look to maps without some kind of documentation to help them understand our efforts and goals with each map. I began reviewing our maps and submitted a proposal of 5 with the intended purpose of narrowing it down to 2 for the tournament. The Prodigy Cup administrators were highly receptive and after internally reviewing the maps chose “DF Absolution” and “DF Wightbane Gorge”. This would not be the end of creating new materials that, to my knowledge, had never been created before by any other level designer team. This review proposal stage is what I attribute the majority of our success to. The other service that I planned for our first foray into competitive use was updates and emergency servicing of our maps if they proved to be detrimental to the tournament. I made Prodigy Cup aware of this, and of course, this exact measure was necessary to guarantee a well run tournament. Absolution in its original state had a LOT of water that caused performance issues for players on lower-end computers. Within about 2 hours of receiving the email the day OF the tournament (but around 3 hours before the official start), we re-worked the maps water and doodads to more appropriate levels. Prodigy Cup went off perfectly and Sean “Day9” Plott casted the finals (which I am still waiting to see!). We now had 1 success under our belts. We needed to continue working and improving ALL of our products. The Prodigy Cup success was quickly followed by another success, a show match of the CSL schools representing Albuquerque, New Mexico and Chicago, Illinois. I had made a “demand” that one or two of our maps be used in the show match because “it’s my birthday”. Both school’s representatives and organizer Silvare decided it was a great idea, and the original version of now famous Yeonsu was used. Needless to say, I was surprised that they had responded at all. The players of the show match appeared to enjoy the new map, and Silvare’s Chicago show matches and her associated Ignition Tournament would quickly become a staple user of Dream Forge maps. This was not the last stop as we continued improving our products. At the height of the “map pool stagnation” crisis, a member of IGN’s Proleague administration (Tim Frasier) contacted the collective group of level designers looking to put on a tournament spotlighting community maps. All map creators were excited about the possibilities of a sudden influx of new maps into the competitive scene, but as we were all rivals and disjointed with a meager communication circuit at best, it was by pure luck that I helped drive the spreadsheet for Tim’s use to pick maps. This spreadsheet later became the basis for the Dream Forge “pipeline” of maps, helping me direct what maps were at which stages (work in progress, early ready, team approved, and competition). It should be mentioned at this point as well, that IPL was not the only tournament recognizing the need for new maps in competitive Starcraft 2. Major League Gaming had come to grips with the outcry as well, and MLG’s Adam Apicella tweeted a call for map makers to contact him. 2 of us, Felix “lefix” of TPW and myself responded. Adam, Felix, and I met on a skype call in the late afternoon one day to discuss the state of competitive maps (i.e. Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Whirlwind). John Nelson of MLG also joined us on that call. It was a confusing call that was loosely structured and difficult for all parties I believe – which at the end led me to offer to produce a consulting product to help MLG determine their next map pool. They accepted the offer and Felix and I began collaborating to produce this document (a highly unrefined version). This would become the basis on which all my future Dream Forge products for tournament administrators would be used. MLG received the document, gave us their thanks, and moved forward with their plans (none of which incorporated our recommendations as far as I know). Consultation #1 was a failure in respect to our work with MLG but a success in the development of new product for Dream Forge. Back on the IPL front, Tim had picked his maps and they were used in a highly publicized event, the IPL Maps Tournament. A few maps would stand out of the pack, the most well known now being DF Atlas (yes, THAT Atlas). It was only a couple of weeks (at most) before the administrative team of the GSL contacted the designer of Atlas, asking if they could have the file and utilize it in the GSL (this was before multi-region play/publishing). Our answer was “OF COURSE!”. At this point, Dream Forge felt we had reached a pinnacle of western map making having now been partnered with 2 major brands. However, I was not fully satisfied with our progress and felt it was appropriate to continue our work with smaller organizations. This was, I think, the best decision as Atlas’ first outing was a short game between GSL players Eve and Aphrodite. Riding the success of Atlas, I began surveying the “Tournaments” sub-forum on TeamLiquid’s website more. I noticed a particular tournament, the “Community Team League” that interested me due to the participating teams registered. This tournament was sponsored originally by FXO NA, but due to a last minute change in their organization became sponsored by the xSin Gaming community. I produced materials similar to my previous regarding Dream Forge’s maps, and they accepted our offer. The maps they would use were DF Illumination and DF Phoenix Cluster. Unfortunately, this tournament was unorganized and suffered many serious setbacks. Additionally, we suffered the loss of a key member of our team. However, Atlas was STILL going strong in the GSL, and Silvare’s Ignition tournament would pick up Atlas along with Yeonsu. We reached another lull point wherein it was difficult to find new tournaments to pick up new maps. I had sent some cold contact emails to various larger organizations such as Dream Hack and NASL, but never received word back. At this point, I began further diversification of our team’s efforts to increasingly include consultation and education services (the latter NEVER took off). The result of which is now the Dream Forge website: http://dreamforgemaps.net/. But we were recognized by many as a premier team. Galaxy eSports began about this time, and they produced a website as well as partnered with a professional team. While they were our competition, I believe greatest accomplishment they provided was a model on map fragmentation. This is a model I realized we needed to quickly follow in order to maintain quality and quantity control of the use of our maps. Due to these diversification efforts, I made contact with Chris “ChanmanV” Chan about his upcoming episode of Climbing The Ladder centering on the state of maps in Starcraft. Chris and I began a dialogue that eventually culminated in my appearance as a guest for the episode and additional exposure for community maps. Oh my, I’m going to be on a talk show?! The episode had mixed reception within the community, but resulted in 2 positives for Dream Forge: 1) I formed a contact with a member of International Gaming League’s administrative team, John Clark, and 2) Blizzard’s own “Cloaken” (name omitted for privacy) asked for and watched highlighted portions of the episode that Chris and I felt were important. Chris remains interested in the map making community and a vocal advocate for us – his efforts are greatly appreciated and I hope to work with him again in the future. As for the first positive, I sent Mr. Clark a cold email post CTL regarding some of the topics discussed during CTL and my personal recommendations on how a tournament organization might approach the level design community. Mr. Clark and his administration team were receptive and asked me to send them a consultation product. Again, as with MLG, Mr. Clark received the document and thanked me. As far as I am aware nothing came of this with IGL, which I consider to be attributable to their particular product structure and lack of interest in Starcraft 2 by their user base. Still, it was another step in the right direction. The second positive of course was that Blizzard themselves had taken notice (finally!) and were showing interest in our concerns and thoughts on the matters of maps, map pool rotations, and tournament emphasis. I cannot say what the result of this was as I have never received an email from Blizzard (although they most certainly have it). At the very least, they demonstrated an interest. The third lull in the period of Dream Forge’s existence occurred at this point (around March/April of 2013). TeamLiquid’s “Plexa” (name omitted) begun contacting and working with Blizzard to approve and produce the now past second TLMC. A fact immediately made aware to the slightly organized members of the map making community. All teams refocused their efforts towards TLMC 2, and for several months we all worked hard. Because of my administrative position and emphasis, I neglected the TLMC other than to direct Dream Forge members to work towards TLMC and began with a cold email to the Collegiate Star League. This was during the CSL’s association with Azubu and I was thus unsure of whether they would respond (as always with cold emails). Low and behold, Mona with CSL did respond. Originally I had asked if they would consider community maps because they were in a unique position similar to the GSL/Kespa because of team competition structure. We began working towards what is now culminating in the Summer Collegiate Champions tournament. The TLMC went off, and Dream Forge member eTcetRa’s Yeonsu took 3rd place overall. As with the first TLMC, Blizzard had approved the incorporation of at least 1 winning map into their ladder pool pending their review/approval. Post TLMC, and prior to Blizzard’s ladder maps announcement, we reached our final lull period (kind of). Due to increasingly difficult personal schedules, our team communication began to fall off gradually but we were still working on finalizing arrangements with CSL. We acquired our newest member, “KingCorwin”, and improved his quality rapidly. We finalized our work with CSL, even producing an educational product (FINALLY!), and Blizzard announced their prospective ladder maps. This, I believe, was the absolute pinnacle of our accomplishments. The announcement of the prospective ladder maps was far reaching, such that ESET Masters out of Germany immediately picked up Yeonsu without contacting us, but that’s OK (we forgive you ). The issue of map fragmentation occurred here, as ESET renamed Yeonsu (due to open publishing) to “EM13 Yeonsu”. However, there was no measure of recourse available to us, as has been the lament of all map makers—Blizzard retains copyright and intellectual ownership of all maps made, and thus we let it go. As for now, Blizzard just announced their ladder maps officially – and Yeonsu made the list. But it is not the Yeonsu that eTcetRa originally created, fixed, revised, and revised again per suspicion of an impending Blizzard email stating they wanted it revised for ladder. Instead it is a new incarnation based on Yeonsu. While we do not blame Blizzard for exercising their rights per the End User License Agreement, we are a little disappointed. But that’s OK – because there is always tomorrow.
Every stage of this journey has been an evolution of the members of our team. I believe we accomplished our mission goals: 1) To develop the best Starcraft II maps for use in competitive play, 2) To promote and develop the greater eSports industry, and 3) To promote and develop each individual team member as a capable leader in their endeavors.
Why do I think these things? We had our maps used from the lowest to the highest levels of competitive play, we developed changes in the eSports industry through our consultations and efforts, and the individual team members are now all going on to bigger and brighter things—leading in their own endeavors. While we may be saying goodbye to Starcraft 2, we are not saying goodbye as a team. We achieved our goals and are ready for the next step.
We will fulfill our commitments through their remaining periods.
I will be making the various materials we have created available over the course of operation publically available within 24 hours on the Dream Forge website for anyone that is curious – omitting personal details as necessary. http://dreamforgemaps.net/media/downloads/.
Goodbye, goodluck, and GG!
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No
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:/
Bye
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Well you made Yeonsu... The only new map in the Ladderpool i do not like.
Never even heard your name before but I guess some people have.
Goodbye
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On August 24 2013 04:47 Enema wrote: Well you made Yeonsu... The only new map in the Ladderpool i do not like.
Never even heard your name before but I guess some people have.
Goodbye Every map with DF in the name hello?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I asked him for a comment and he told me: "I was just too enthralled by what TI3 has shown. I am going to try my hand at professional DotA2 map making."
I wish him the best of luck!
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^ Is that a troll, mapmaking for a map in a game that hasnt changed in 10 years? Lol.
Good luck
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I asked him for a comment and he told me: "I was just too enthralled by what LCS has shown. I am going to try my hand at professional LoL map making."
I wish him the best of luck!
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On August 24 2013 04:53 iNcontroL wrote: I asked him for a comment and he told me: "I was just too enthralled by what TI3 has shown. I am going to try my hand at professional DotA2 map making."
I wish him the best of luck! Sounds like being a serious sc2 mapmaker is quite difficult, so I can't fault him for leaving sc2, but on the other hand... it might be difficult being a professional Dota2 mapmaker, considering there's only one map ever used in competition....although as a casual Dota 2 player I'd certainly be willing to try some games on a funky new map.
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So you all collectively decided to throw in the towel or you just decided that having a formal mapping team in the current environment is pointless?
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On August 24 2013 04:53 iNcontroL wrote: I asked him for a comment and he told me: "I was just too enthralled by what TI3 has shown. I am going to try my hand at professional DotA2 map making."
I wish him the best of luck!
On August 24 2013 04:56 HoMM wrote: I asked him for a comment and he told me: "I was just too enthralled by what LCS has shown. I am going to try my hand at professional LoL map making."
I wish him the best of luck!
wait, what's going on here?
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Yeah I was just gonna ask the same thing haha
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
I'm unsure if Incontrol was being sarcastic and the other guy meant to quote it and missclicked or something.
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On August 24 2013 05:04 TheFish7 wrote: So you all collectively decided to throw in the towel or you just decided that having a formal mapping team in the current environment is pointless?
Good question. I think it means now officially nobody who was on DF is interested to make maps for SC2 anymore.
On the other hand mapmaking teams are pointless regardless, they are only a tag and nothing more. For internal feedback I think just going to the general mapmaking skype room was good enough.
And just fyi everyone, the creator of CruX Frost, Semmo, left some weeks ago. So did the creator of Ohana and Ravage, Ironman. Monitor, who made Korhal Compound and this years TLMC top 5 Koprulu told us he uninstalled SC2 weeks ago.
Basically all of TPW who only half a year ago were still providing a ton of quality maps have stopped making maps or show any interest to do so, including myself.
So yea basically in the western scene right now there is like 2-3 high level mapmakers left lol
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One lonelly mapcrafter walks, all he sees is the emptiness of a wasteland, the same emptiness and vastness that he tries to transmit with his maps, but no one to learn from, no one to admire, just him and sCn Diamond...
So Diamond wanna build a team?...
God damn it ~.~
Oh crap! we still have Galaxy! right? right?
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You made some nice maps, thanks for that ^.^ .
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This is so damn depressing.
Good job Blizzard! Good fucking job.
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Again, as with MLG, Mr. Clark received the document and thanked me. As far as I am aware nothing came of this with IGL, which I consider to be attributable to their particular product structure and lack of interest in Starcraft 2 by their user base. Still, it was another step in the right direction.
IGL died bro
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Esv still exists with New Sunshine and I, so sc2 map making isn't dead yet. Good luck with your future endeavor Sigma. Thank you for your efforts!
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On August 24 2013 07:31 Qwyn wrote: This is so damn depressing.
Good job Blizzard! Good fucking job. How is this Blizzard's fault? If anything there's some light praise for Blizzard's steps towards increased cooperation with map makers in OP's huge story.
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On August 24 2013 07:31 Qwyn wrote: This is so damn depressing.
Good job Blizzard! Good fucking job.
Hahahaha. Seriously, this is so cliche - its become so typical to yell at Blizzard about everything that goes on about Starcraft - I bet you didn't even read the whole story (hint - its under the spoiler tag) :D
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On August 24 2013 08:07 Stijn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 07:31 Qwyn wrote: This is so damn depressing.
Good job Blizzard! Good fucking job. How is this Blizzard's fault? If anything there's some light praise for Blizzard's steps towards increased cooperation with map makers in OP's huge story.
1. Complexities of the editor 2. Arcade system sucked for the longest period of time 3. No market place or anything of note that encourages anyone to design melee maps because there is hardly any incentive
etc.
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People have apparently been able to put up with "complexities of the editor" for a few years now, producing quality maps meanwhile, so I doubt that's the reason to quit? And not being able to gain money on a market place with your maps... that never stopped anyone in the years before in-game purchases became a thing, did it?
I understand the whole problem with the Arcade system - or at least I will believe the map makers when they complain about it, I've never had much of a problem with it myself - but those other reasons seem kind of ...weird. Then again I never understood the idea of map making being as serious of a business as the whole "map making team" thing makes it seem to be, so maybe I'm just missing something here.
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You're downplaying the issues of the mapmaking community and Blizzard's previous disregard for community maps, their makers as well as even tournaments organizers communicating with mapmaking orgs.
If the author is starting to list these businesses as finally talking to them, then it just shows how long it's been since talks originally started. I swore I read the same thing with ESV awhile back and Diamond, a lot of this seems like passive communication rather than anything actually monumental. The TL mapmaking content is nice, but it more of a token of appreciation than anything more.
Always feels like ProLeague takes maps a bit more serious than Blizzard, but I'm not too informed on the subject.
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On August 24 2013 08:40 Torte de Lini wrote: You're downplaying the issues of the mapmaking community and Blizzard's previous disregard for community maps, their makers as well as even tournaments organizers communicating with mapmaking orgs.
If the author is starting to list these businesses as finally talking to them, then it just shows how long it's been since talks originally started. I swore I read the same thing with ESV awhile back and Diamond, a lot of this seems like passive communication rather than anything actually monumental. The TL mapmaking content is nice, but it more of a token of appreciation than anything more.
Always feels like ProLeague takes maps a bit more serious than Blizzard, but I'm not too informed on the subject.
GOM/Kespa are very nice to their map makers, and the benefit of such should be seen with maps like Daybreak and Whirlwind. Yet, there still isn't anything like that for the western scene.
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On August 24 2013 07:31 Qwyn wrote: This is so damn depressing.
Good job Blizzard! Good fucking job.
The typical whine about Blizzard which makes no sense whatsoever.
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iNcontroL unmasking all these hidden Romanians :D
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1. Complexities of the editor 2. Arcade system sucked for the longest period of time 3. No market place or anything of note that encourages anyone to design melee maps because there is hardly any incentive
etc.
1. Literally irrelevant for melee maps 2. The past. 3. Market place will never be for melee maps, because of how incredibly stupid that is.
Any expectations of making money from mapmaking are sheer pipe dream, doubly so for melee maps. It's a fun hobby, and trying to pretend otherwise is silly. To give an idea of scope, even asking for donations back in the Brood War days would've gotten your ass lawyered for trying to benefit from Blizzard products. Nowadays they're not only still trying to find ways to monetize it, they're even encouraging things like the SC Universe kickstarter and such.
But seriously, it's actually mindboggling to me that I see people with expectations of monetary support for these things. People made maps, and now they aren't--it's a shame they no longer have fun with it, particularly if they are good at it, but any whining about support is unfounded. The best support Blizzard can give is hiring talented individuals from these communities--which hey, is something they've actually been doing for the past umpteen years.
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On August 24 2013 10:20 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 08:58 Timetwister22 wrote:On August 24 2013 08:40 Torte de Lini wrote: You're downplaying the issues of the mapmaking community and Blizzard's previous disregard for community maps, their makers as well as even tournaments organizers communicating with mapmaking orgs.
If the author is starting to list these businesses as finally talking to them, then it just shows how long it's been since talks originally started. I swore I read the same thing with ESV awhile back and Diamond, a lot of this seems like passive communication rather than anything actually monumental. The TL mapmaking content is nice, but it more of a token of appreciation than anything more.
Always feels like ProLeague takes maps a bit more serious than Blizzard, but I'm not too informed on the subject. GOM/Kespa are very nice to their map makers, and the benefit of such should be seen with maps like Daybreak and Whirlwind. Yet, there still isn't anything like that for the western scene. If Daybreak and Whirlwind are the result of being "nice" to map makers, then map makers should be treated worse... Such bad maps... + Show Spoiler +Protip: I am being facetious
Wasn't so much trying g to say that this maps were good, but rather how far maps can go with good treatment and support. If an unknown, but potentially 'good' map goes unnoticed and ignored because of no support, I'd validate that as a problem.
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On August 24 2013 08:07 Stijn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 07:31 Qwyn wrote: This is so damn depressing.
Good job Blizzard! Good fucking job. How is this Blizzard's fault? If anything there's some light praise for Blizzard's steps towards increased cooperation with map makers in OP's huge story.
Sure there is light praise for their very minor attempts toward cooperation, but ultimately they fell short.
The greatest thing a mapmaker can accomplish is to get their map on ladder and into tournaments. I've been SC2 mapmaking since release and I finally got one of my maps in that position. And then it turns out Blizzard made the map their own, completely changing my work, that I spent around 9 months working on.
Sure yeah I still got credit... but I'd rather I didn't if it isn't really my map anymore. Blizzard handled it poorly, my email was given to them by the TLMC organiser and if they had just used it a map worth being on ladder/tournaments might have been made, instead of what they come up with now.
GGWP.
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On August 24 2013 10:20 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 08:58 Timetwister22 wrote:On August 24 2013 08:40 Torte de Lini wrote: You're downplaying the issues of the mapmaking community and Blizzard's previous disregard for community maps, their makers as well as even tournaments organizers communicating with mapmaking orgs.
If the author is starting to list these businesses as finally talking to them, then it just shows how long it's been since talks originally started. I swore I read the same thing with ESV awhile back and Diamond, a lot of this seems like passive communication rather than anything actually monumental. The TL mapmaking content is nice, but it more of a token of appreciation than anything more.
Always feels like ProLeague takes maps a bit more serious than Blizzard, but I'm not too informed on the subject. GOM/Kespa are very nice to their map makers, and the benefit of such should be seen with maps like Daybreak and Whirlwind. Yet, there still isn't anything like that for the western scene. If Daybreak and Whirlwind are the result of being "nice" to map makers, then map makers should be treated worse... Such bad maps... + Show Spoiler +Protip: I am being facetious But Whirlwind and Daybreak were EXCELENT maps in their moment, the fact that you think that way shows how neglected the maps have become, you just CAN'T have a map for EIGHT fucking seasons and expect him to be balanced at the end of them, it is IMPOSSIBLE since the the players by nature will try to break balance and try to find exploits in the map, it's the natural development of things, that's why the maps NEEDS to be cicled out after a reasonable time, otherwise they will start showing imbalances, and not mostly because the map is bad, but because the players adapt to the map with such efficiency that is THEY the ones that create the imbalance (stagnated metagame in this case).
//EDIT// tbh i find the change to Frost (xel'nagas) much more important than the change to the island bases and texturing in Yeonsu.
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It's a real shame to see you guys close up shop. The best of luck to you Sigma, it's been a pleasure!
On August 24 2013 08:40 Torte de Lini wrote: You're downplaying the issues of the mapmaking community and Blizzard's previous disregard for community maps, their makers as well as even tournaments organizers communicating with mapmaking orgs.
If the author is starting to list these businesses as finally talking to them, then it just shows how long it's been since talks originally started. I swore I read the same thing with ESV awhile back and Diamond, a lot of this seems like passive communication rather than anything actually monumental. The TL mapmaking content is nice, but it more of a token of appreciation than anything more.
Always feels like ProLeague takes maps a bit more serious than Blizzard, but I'm not too informed on the subject.
No, you're pretty on target with your perception.
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On August 24 2013 04:53 iNcontroL wrote: I asked him for a comment and he told me: "I was just too enthralled by what TI3 has shown. I am going to try my hand at professional DotA2 map making."
I wish him the best of luck!
And I actually laughed at this one. Thanks
but...
On August 24 2013 04:56 HoMM wrote: I asked him for a comment and he told me: "I was just too enthralled by what LCS has shown. I am going to try my hand at professional LoL map making."
I wish him the best of luck!
Get out!
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Wish the best of luck to you guys.
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And it wasn't mentioned in the OP but I'd like to thank Ragoo because he is a sweetheart
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On August 24 2013 09:13 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 07:31 Qwyn wrote: This is so damn depressing.
Good job Blizzard! Good fucking job. The typical whine about Blizzard which makes no sense whatsoever.
Ok then. It's not Blizzard's fault for repeatedly using terrible, Blizzard made maps over the plethora of community made maps which go through plenty of testing.
It's not Blizzard's fault for failing to promote community made ladder maps at all, resulting in the vast majority of them never getting used.
It's not Blizzard's fault for basically, standing up map-makers on their asses and giving them no support. Who else would you think it might be? Tournament organizers?
Sure - but they are also using the maps that Blizzard forces them to use, now. Months ago, and you could argue that, and in fact there WERE some tourneys that brought about the use of new maps.
But by and large, it is Blizzard. The maps are there. I go into the Custom Map forum. I repeatedly comment on a lot of amazing maps that will never be used. So while you can claim that it is MY FAULT, or the community's fault, I place the blame on the company who has the power to make one of the best map pools the game has ever had, every season, with tons of brand new community maps that are beautiful and logical in design.
Who instead, for the past TWO YEARS, have very slowly, at a snail's pace, used horribly made maps instead of the community made maps which were just SITTING THERE, begging to be used! You can call next season's map pool progress, and you're damn right it is, to a point.
But is it progress to have the vast majority of map-makers retire and disappear into obscurity because Blizzard failed to support one of the vital components of the game? And to a lesser extent, tournament organizers?
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This reminds me of iccup or whoever it was from early release. Even if your maps are great, you can't expect anything at all. You're just making maps, not entitled to having your maps anywhere.
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On August 24 2013 10:10 shelfofjustice wrote:Show nested quote +1. Complexities of the editor 2. Arcade system sucked for the longest period of time 3. No market place or anything of note that encourages anyone to design melee maps because there is hardly any incentive
etc. 1. Literally irrelevant for melee maps 2. The past. 3. Market place will never be for melee maps, because of how incredibly stupid that is. Any expectations of making money from mapmaking are sheer pipe dream, doubly so for melee maps. It's a fun hobby, and trying to pretend otherwise is silly. To give an idea of scope, even asking for donations back in the Brood War days would've gotten your ass lawyered for trying to benefit from Blizzard products. Nowadays they're not only still trying to find ways to monetize it, they're even encouraging things like the SC Universe kickstarter and such. But seriously, it's actually mindboggling to me that I see people with expectations of monetary support for these things. People made maps, and now they aren't--it's a shame they no longer have fun with it, particularly if they are good at it, but any whining about support is unfounded. The best support Blizzard can give is hiring talented individuals from these communities--which hey, is something they've actually been doing for the past umpteen years. The same could be said for PLAYING a video game, yet it is done. Stop just saying random naysayer garbage. If some things were different then a lot might have been different.
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On August 24 2013 12:30 Gentso wrote: This reminds me of iccup or whoever it was from early release. Even if your maps are great, you can't expect anything at all. You're just making maps, not entitled to having your maps anywhere. Great maps SHOULD be played, however, so why wouldn't we want to support mappers?
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oh well thanks for the maps
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man i miss broodwar melee game selection haha
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On August 24 2013 12:31 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 10:10 shelfofjustice wrote:1. Complexities of the editor 2. Arcade system sucked for the longest period of time 3. No market place or anything of note that encourages anyone to design melee maps because there is hardly any incentive
etc. 1. Literally irrelevant for melee maps 2. The past. 3. Market place will never be for melee maps, because of how incredibly stupid that is. Any expectations of making money from mapmaking are sheer pipe dream, doubly so for melee maps. It's a fun hobby, and trying to pretend otherwise is silly. To give an idea of scope, even asking for donations back in the Brood War days would've gotten your ass lawyered for trying to benefit from Blizzard products. Nowadays they're not only still trying to find ways to monetize it, they're even encouraging things like the SC Universe kickstarter and such. But seriously, it's actually mindboggling to me that I see people with expectations of monetary support for these things. People made maps, and now they aren't--it's a shame they no longer have fun with it, particularly if they are good at it, but any whining about support is unfounded. The best support Blizzard can give is hiring talented individuals from these communities--which hey, is something they've actually been doing for the past umpteen years. The same could be said for PLAYING a video game, yet it is done. Stop just saying random naysayer garbage. If some things were different then a lot might have been different.
The same IS true for video games. You should probably drop the crazy expectations that have no precedent and focus on doing things you enjoy, or not doing them. If you like mapmaking, make fucking maps. If you like playing games, play them. If you go into either expecting to be rewarded from the company that makes them with no indication that that is actually a thing, you will probably be disappointed.
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On August 24 2013 12:05 eTcetRa wrote:And it wasn't mentioned in the OP but I'd like to thank Ragoo because he is a sweetheart That's only because he called your map good. And I'm pretty sure it was bad.
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Can someone tell me how they can add new maps into the Dota 2? If I'm not wrong the entire mechanics of the game and the gameplay is focused on the default map. 3 Lanes, 2 runes in the middle, 4 jungles, etc etc. Wouldn't changing the map kinda change the entire gameplay? Then if they keep the layout there wouldn't be much variety. They can probably implement this for the casual playlist, such as what diretide did, but other than that I don't really see the potential. Compare that to SCII where the new maps are constantly being used in SCII. whether its for casual players or for professional players. You can attempt some crazy stuff like the old fighting spirit did, and if it works you can still add it in.
Plus I think this really shows that it is the Korean companies/organisations such as GOM and KeSPA that are helping the professional scene, not blizzard. If Blizzard could support all these foreign map makers, there would be much more variety of maps than now. Another wrong decision by blizzard. I think they're going downhill since they were merged with Activision.
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Sad to see you guys go but... it's not like mapmaking has any reason to stay around.
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On August 24 2013 14:49 Estancia wrote: Can someone tell me how they can add new maps into the Dota 2? If I'm not wrong the entire mechanics of the game and the gameplay is focused on the default map. 3 Lanes, 2 runes in the middle, 4 jungles, etc etc. Wouldn't changing the map kinda change the entire gameplay? Then if they keep the layout there wouldn't be much variety. They can probably implement this for the casual playlist, such as what diretide did, but other than that I don't really see the potential. Compare that to SCII where the new maps are constantly being used in SCII. whether its for casual players or for professional players. You can attempt some crazy stuff like the old fighting spirit did, and if it works you can still add it in.
Plus I think this really shows that it is the Korean companies/organisations such as GOM and KeSPA that are helping the professional scene, not blizzard. If Blizzard could support all these foreign map makers, there would be much more variety of maps than now. Another wrong decision by blizzard. I think they're going downhill since they were merged with Activision.
iNcontroL was making a joke, we aren't making maps for dota2..
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On August 24 2013 10:20 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 08:58 Timetwister22 wrote:On August 24 2013 08:40 Torte de Lini wrote: You're downplaying the issues of the mapmaking community and Blizzard's previous disregard for community maps, their makers as well as even tournaments organizers communicating with mapmaking orgs.
If the author is starting to list these businesses as finally talking to them, then it just shows how long it's been since talks originally started. I swore I read the same thing with ESV awhile back and Diamond, a lot of this seems like passive communication rather than anything actually monumental. The TL mapmaking content is nice, but it more of a token of appreciation than anything more.
Always feels like ProLeague takes maps a bit more serious than Blizzard, but I'm not too informed on the subject. GOM/Kespa are very nice to their map makers, and the benefit of such should be seen with maps like Daybreak and Whirlwind. Yet, there still isn't anything like that for the western scene. If Daybreak and Whirlwind are the result of being "nice" to map makers, then map makers should be treated worse... Such bad maps... + Show Spoiler +Protip: I am being facetious
You see Daybreak was a great map when it first came out (read:people hadn't figured out OPness of Broodlord infestor properly) but as soon as every zerg started to turtle -->broodlords, yep it turned out to be a shitty map.
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On August 24 2013 16:31 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 10:20 Sated wrote:On August 24 2013 08:58 Timetwister22 wrote:On August 24 2013 08:40 Torte de Lini wrote: You're downplaying the issues of the mapmaking community and Blizzard's previous disregard for community maps, their makers as well as even tournaments organizers communicating with mapmaking orgs.
If the author is starting to list these businesses as finally talking to them, then it just shows how long it's been since talks originally started. I swore I read the same thing with ESV awhile back and Diamond, a lot of this seems like passive communication rather than anything actually monumental. The TL mapmaking content is nice, but it more of a token of appreciation than anything more.
Always feels like ProLeague takes maps a bit more serious than Blizzard, but I'm not too informed on the subject. GOM/Kespa are very nice to their map makers, and the benefit of such should be seen with maps like Daybreak and Whirlwind. Yet, there still isn't anything like that for the western scene. If Daybreak and Whirlwind are the result of being "nice" to map makers, then map makers should be treated worse... Such bad maps... + Show Spoiler +Protip: I am being facetious You see Daybreak was a great map when it first came out (read:people hadn't figured out OPness of Broodlord infestor properly) but as soon as every zerg started to turtle -->broodlords, yep it turned out to be a shitty map.
Exactly. Maps need to be rotated out otherwise people will figure these things out. Same thing is happening with some of the maps these days too.
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On August 24 2013 12:05 eTcetRa wrote:And it wasn't mentioned in the OP but I'd like to thank Ragoo because he is a sweetheart
Thanks man <3 I know one day we will map together in another game!
Sad to see you guys go altho it really was only logical. I enjoyed some of your works a lot and I feel eTcetRa's pain for his map being butchered by Blizzard
Sig I know you did your best but it just was too hard in this environment.
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On August 24 2013 11:39 iamcaustic wrote:It's a real shame to see you guys close up shop. The best of luck to you Sigma, it's been a pleasure! Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 08:40 Torte de Lini wrote: You're downplaying the issues of the mapmaking community and Blizzard's previous disregard for community maps, their makers as well as even tournaments organizers communicating with mapmaking orgs.
If the author is starting to list these businesses as finally talking to them, then it just shows how long it's been since talks originally started. I swore I read the same thing with ESV awhile back and Diamond, a lot of this seems like passive communication rather than anything actually monumental. The TL mapmaking content is nice, but it more of a token of appreciation than anything more.
Always feels like ProLeague takes maps a bit more serious than Blizzard, but I'm not too informed on the subject. No, you're pretty on target with your perception.
Well that sucks
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On August 24 2013 20:34 Ragoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 12:05 eTcetRa wrote:And it wasn't mentioned in the OP but I'd like to thank Ragoo because he is a sweetheart Thanks man <3 I know one day we will map together in another game! Sad to see you guys go altho it really was only logical. I enjoyed some of your works a lot and I feel eTcetRa's pain for his map being butchered by Blizzard Sig I know you did your best but it just was too hard in this environment.
Let us hope so! Maybe UMS mapping for Dota 2 if that is ever possible. Or CS:GO, I am not sure how popular that game is! But it would be fun creating FPS environments!
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On August 24 2013 22:33 eTcetRa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 20:34 Ragoo wrote:On August 24 2013 12:05 eTcetRa wrote:And it wasn't mentioned in the OP but I'd like to thank Ragoo because he is a sweetheart Thanks man <3 I know one day we will map together in another game! Sad to see you guys go altho it really was only logical. I enjoyed some of your works a lot and I feel eTcetRa's pain for his map being butchered by Blizzard Sig I know you did your best but it just was too hard in this environment. Let us hope so! Maybe UMS mapping for Dota 2 if that is ever possible. Or CS:GO, I am not sure how popular that game is! But it would be fun creating FPS environments!
35,000 users today, 44k peak
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Hello! I am a broodwar map maker, and I read all SC2 map threads here on tl. Im not sure if you know of me, hence the mini intro, but I have really enjoyed all your creations. Im interested in what you guys are planning on doing next. Personally I am finding pixel art, and also 3d modelling in blender really fun at the moment. + Show Spoiler + You guys are all expert 3d modellers now, where will you take these talents? Are there any games you are interested in getting involved with? Basically, whats on the cards now?
Alot of mapping concepts from sc2 transfer over to broodwar, so if you fancy doing some broodwar map making, head to broodwarmaps.net There have been over 10 new maps uploaded there in the last week alone, so we are pretty active!
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On August 24 2013 22:40 CardinalAllin wrote:Hello! I am a broodwar map maker, and I read all SC2 map threads here on tl. Im not sure if you know of me, hence the mini intro, but I have really enjoyed all your creations. Im interested in what you guys are planning on doing next. Personally I am finding pixel art, and also 3d modelling in blender really fun at the moment. + Show Spoiler +You guys are all expert 3d modellers now, where will you take these talents? Are there any games you are interested in getting involved with? Basically, whats on the cards now? Alot of mapping concepts from sc2 transfer over to broodwar, so if you fancy doing some broodwar map making, head to broodwarmaps.net There have been over 10 new maps uploaded there in the last week alone, so we are pretty active!
Several of us are 3d modelers, texture artists, animators etc. . . We all have obligations that are tying up our time increasingly but we are committed to working together in the future, just not on Starcraft 2. Myself? I am currently working on a couple of game modd's (free of course) while I increase my proficiency as a 3D worker, am prototyping a game for commercial release (indie), attending university for my Master's, and working full time. We are discussing various games to get involved with but have not made a determination yet. We would like to continue working together of course.
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Weak Fie
the new blizz maps are really boring... again. and you all decide to bounce to Dota
we need more incentive
makes me wish I still had it in me
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On August 24 2013 14:49 Estancia wrote: Can someone tell me how they can add new maps into the Dota 2? If I'm not wrong the entire mechanics of the game and the gameplay is focused on the default map. 3 Lanes, 2 runes in the middle, 4 jungles, etc etc. Wouldn't changing the map kinda change the entire gameplay? Then if they keep the layout there wouldn't be much variety. They can probably implement this for the casual playlist, such as what diretide did, but other than that I don't really see the potential. Compare that to SCII where the new maps are constantly being used in SCII. whether its for casual players or for professional players. You can attempt some crazy stuff like the old fighting spirit did, and if it works you can still add it in.
Plus I think this really shows that it is the Korean companies/organisations such as GOM and KeSPA that are helping the professional scene, not blizzard. If Blizzard could support all these foreign map makers, there would be much more variety of maps than now. Another wrong decision by blizzard. I think they're going downhill since they were merged with Activision. making maps for dota 2 doesnt have to mean it has to play like dota 2. think wc3 custom games maps with better graphics. in fact you can even remake starcraft 2 to play on dota 2 client. most maps will probably cater to the casual player base but the player base is definitely larger than the player base that is playing the current custom sc2 maps.
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I'm very sorry to hear about this John. I really enjoyed working with you, and was glad to use DF maps in my events and tournaments. I definitely felt a sense of pride when I saw Yeonsu added to the ladder map pool, despite not knowing the entire story. I also had the pleasure of meeting KingCorwin at a tournament recently, and was thrilled to see his level of enthusiasm for the community. It's sad to see a group with so much potential retire.
RIP DF
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On August 24 2013 06:54 Uvantak wrote: One lonelly mapcrafter walks, all he sees is the emptiness of a wasteland, the same emptiness and vastness that he tries to transmit with his maps, but no one to learn from, no one to admire, just him and sCn Diamond...
So Diamond wanna build a team?...
God damn it ~.~ I guess we could name us the lone mappers and take a page out of Fallout's book. Two lone mappers, wandering the wastes that is foreign mapping in SC2... (we'll have to flip a coin who gets to be the dog)
It's sad to see DF disband. I'm afraid we see the same over and over: 0) all map-making teams are inactive 1) a few new enthusiastic mappers found a team 2) they make some great maps 3) they try to get some publicity and promote their maps (making own tourneys, hit on organizers, whatever) 4) nobody cares at all except for the other map makers 5) no chance to ever get any recognition or playtime on your map 6) mappers get frustrated and go inactive. 7) rinse and repeat.
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Nevermind, i didn't read the first comments
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As I understood it, along with the TPW guys retiring, it's basically "we're putting our hearts into this, and neither Blizzard (WCS) nor any other tournaments besides GSL/GSTL do appreciate our work. Plus, bnet sucks, so we leave the scene."
Could Blizzard PLEASE react at least for bnet and WCS now?!
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On September 01 2013 08:08 boxerfred wrote: As I understood it, along with the TPW guys retiring, it's basically "we're putting our hearts into this, and neither Blizzard (WCS) nor any other tournaments besides GSL/GSTL do appreciate our work. Plus, bnet sucks, so we leave the scene."
Could Blizzard PLEASE react at least for bnet and WCS now?!
Yea that is exactly what didn't happen. It seemed to be a cause of multible real life issues causing too tight schedules for all members which ultimately also reduced their interest in SC2.
Battle net 2.0 is exactly the same for melee mapping as battle net 1.0, if not better. There is no point in blaming battle.net for this.
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