FXO's leader Lee "Choya" Hyung Seop came to the GomTV studio to make his position on FXO's decision to stop sponsoring the team known. "There's about half a year left on our contract with FXO, but they informed us that they would be stopping their support of the team." said head coach Choya. "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
"We respect FXO's decision, and we are grateful for all their support . Even before FXO's sponsorship, I ran the team with my personal funds and funds from team league. There will be no problem in continuing to operate the team."
Choya pointed to Blizzard's WCS system as the reason for the StarCraft 2's lack of success. "Before WCS opened, Blizzard gathered all the head coaches of the teams together and said it would provide steady prize money to players and give them opportunities, but in the end nothing has changed. We were told at the time the OSL and GSL would be left alone and WCS would be run as a higher league, but it's become a situation where it's just WCS. Because of WCS, all the foundations have crumbled. If things go like this again next year, then StarCraft 2 teams will be hurt even more."
FXO players will stay with the team regardless of the sponsor's choice. The continued exitstence of the team will depend upon next year's WCS plan. The Dota2 players will stay with the team until the end of the year, and depending on the situation roster changes or selling the Dota2 team will be considered.
On October 02 2013 19:29 Plansix wrote: To many teams, not enough money to go around. WCS or no, there are just to many Korean teams for the scene to support right now.
This is obviously Blizzard's fault for not having infinite money.
IMO, the biggest problem was that there weren't enough small tournaments outside of GSL and more recently OSL either for teams to make a quick buck or to attract new blood. The Korean scene was doomed to stagnate or crumble form the start.
Because of WCS, all the foundations have crumbled. If things go like this again next year, then StarCraft 2 teams will be hurt even more."
He is clearly confusing causation with correlation. WCS didn't ruin Sc2. I think it likely wouldn't have been even worse without WCS, but eventually if there are not enough viewers watching Sc2, then the size of this scene couldn't be sustained. Thus, it has to be scaled down.
WCS may not be everyone's favorite thing, but it isn't related to the downfall of the scene. Starcraft was on the decline for a while.
Edit - Part of me hopes SC 2 loses a ton of popularity, and becomes and underground scene the way BW was in its early stages. Let it grow naturally instead of forcing it, or let it die if it is supposed to die.
WCS needs to be stopped as long as there's at least a handful of people still caring about Starcraft Esports. Otherwise the game is dead before the next expansion is released. Dead as Brood War never was, that is.
Because of WCS, all the foundations have crumbled. If things go like this again next year, then StarCraft 2 teams will be hurt even more."
He is clearly confusing causation with correlation. WCS didn't ruin Sc2. I think it likely wouldn't have been even worse without WCS, but eventually if there are not enough viewers watching Sc2, then the size of this scene couldn't be sustained. Thus, it has to be scaled down.
On October 02 2013 19:37 ETisME wrote: before wcs, there were tonnes more smaller cups, I don't even know how many still exist now is KSL still running?
KSL died a long time ago
Also seems like Leenock is staying with the team =/
I think I like where SC2 was in 2012 where we had GSL NASL ESL OSL MLG and WCS and IPL. this year is just ridiculous with one premier tournament in korea things are just not fun anymore
The Only Starcraft I seem to watch anymore is if there is any players I like at Dreamhack or IEMs I don't watch WCS and it really makes me sad that WCS has become the trash that it is today. I had high hopes Though pretty soon we will all be back playing BW or Dota2.
In my opinion, thats BS. SC2 gameplay flaws ruined SC2. The game ruined the game. Also Blizzard's price politics ruined SC2 in Asia from the start. It was 60+40 bucks (SC2+HotS) vs free (LoL). That's a joke.
Before WCS it was all just about to break together, Blizzard just prolonged SC2's life with money (WCS). It does not matter if zero viewers watch GSL or if zero viewers watch WCS GSL.
When Blizzard first announced WCS, people hated it because it had legitimately bad problems.
2 seasons later... people still hate it and the problems have not been fixed. And that doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon.
Since SC2's inception, it seems as though Blizzard has really stuck their fingers in their ears and their heads in the ground, ignoring a lot of the major criticisms people had with them. Korea's the region that that's been effected the most by their ignorance, and it's the region that's suffering the most as the result of it.
And really, should anyone really be surprised? Problems have been apparent for a long time. Players have asked Blizzard to fix them. And Blizzard has stubbornly refused or ignored them. And as much as I love SC2, Blizzard just does not seem to get that their game and approach to e-sports needs major fixing. And as a result, I really find it sad that I don't think there's any more hope for SC2 in Korea. There isn't going to be some kind messiah savior for it. No magic bullet. No healing potion. The Korean audience has made it clear that they don't care for SC2 in its current state, and Blizzard really doesn't look like they're going to do anything to change that. So, unfortunately, that's probably gonna be it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I expect SC2 to continue to decline until it eventually becomes incredibly niche like WC3 in Korea.
As for the rest of the world, it's probably more resilient. SC2 still pretty popular outside of Korea. I can't make any predictions for SC2 outside of Korea right now, as the writing on the wall isn't as clear as it is in Korea.
On October 02 2013 19:39 Caladan wrote: In my opinion, thats BS. SC2 gameplay flaws ruined SC2. The game ruined the game. Also Blizzard's price politics ruined SC2 in Asia from the start. It was 60+40 bucks (SC2+HotS) vs free (LoL). That's a joke.
Before WCS it was all just about to break together, Blizzard just prolonged SC2's life with money (WCS). It does not matter if zero viewers watch GSL or if zero viewers watch WCS GSL.
On October 02 2013 19:37 Undead1993 wrote: i like how he says starcraft got hurt by wcs and it will be hurt even more if wcs stays this way and you make "WCS Ruined SC2" out of it. oO
Dude we have to, no we must, believe that sc2 will die asap. Don't ask me why but it's apparently really cool to say. Gogo sc2 dieing!!!
Sarcasm aside I agree with choya to a certain extend. Having wcs on top of gsl/osl like last year would have been way nicer and given players a chance to shine in 3 different individual leagues.
@Ketch: Yes it is. If you push the only two existing tournaments into wcs thats the only logical result. As starleague/code s are now wcs brands they can't just run a code s/starleague on the side.
Pfff.... Korea just needs more tournaments next to WCS that's all. Is it Blizz'es fault that there are no additional tournaments? I don't think so. They can just be organized right?
Probably, I think it was already confirmed by EG in some article that the partnership ended with Proleague's conclusion. HerO is currently staying at the IM house. I don't know where Zenio went.
On October 02 2013 19:43 Ketch wrote: Pfff.... Korea just needs more tournaments next to WCS that's all. Is it Blizz'es fault that there are no additional tournaments? I don't think so. They can just be organized right?
I think you need a tournament license, but just about every company does that. I know Valve does at least.
On October 02 2013 19:37 Undead1993 wrote: i like how he says starcraft got hurt by wcs and it will be hurt even more if wcs stays this way and you make "WCS Ruined SC2" out of it. oO
Dude we have to, no we must, believe that sc2 will die asap. Don't ask me why but it's apparently really cool to say. Gogo sc2 dieing!!!
Sarcasm aside I agree with choya to a certain extend. Having wcs on top of gsl/osl like last year would have been way nicer and given players a chance to shine in 3 different individual leagues.
Wasn't the complaint like a year and a half ago that having multiple individual leagues was killing SC2?
The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
On October 02 2013 19:43 Ketch wrote: Pfff.... Korea just needs more tournaments next to WCS that's all. Is it Blizz'es fault that there are no additional tournaments? I don't think so. They can just be organized right?
I think you need a tournament license, but just about every company does that. I know Valve does at least.
On October 02 2013 19:37 Undead1993 wrote: i like how he says starcraft got hurt by wcs and it will be hurt even more if wcs stays this way and you make "WCS Ruined SC2" out of it. oO
Dude we have to, no we must, believe that sc2 will die asap. Don't ask me why but it's apparently really cool to say. Gogo sc2 dieing!!!
Sarcasm aside I agree with choya to a certain extend. Having wcs on top of gsl/osl like last year would have been way nicer and given players a chance to shine in 3 different individual leagues.
Wasn't the complaint like a year and a half ago that having multiple individual leagues was killing SC2?
Yea and kespas "reason" to move out of gomtv classic was that having 3 individual leagues + proleague was too much for the players. But msl + osl always worked fine so I guess if they would just give ogn wcs and let gom run code s you may have a nice solution.
The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts.
And the nice thing with your proposal is that you can build up Blizzcon as a TI-like event to serve as a closure to the year's story lines.
On October 02 2013 19:43 Ketch wrote: Pfff.... Korea just needs more tournaments next to WCS that's all. Is it Blizz'es fault that there are no additional tournaments? I don't think so. They can just be organized right?
They can't just be organized. Correct me if i am wrong but wasn't there a rule that you couldn't stream/play a tournament when the WCS was going on? Now if you think about how many hours/day there is WCS going on you see its nearly impossible to organize other stuff.
I am not surprised that these single sponsor teams are having a hard time. The fact that they have all their eggs in one basket is just to risky if that sponsor decides to move on.
Also, the title is pretty hyperbolic. The only way he said that is if you add the word "ruined",
On October 02 2013 19:53 xuanzue wrote: form all this korean cataclysm I'll only miss the proleague.
mlg and ogn can go and $%@# themselves.
MLG only decided to not run sc2 at ONE event, they still pay two inhouse casters a salary so they are obv not done with star 2. OGN just ran a fucking starleague and probably will run more in 2014. Proleague will stick around, they announced LoL pl not the closure of sc2 pl and another sc2 pl will happen. Jesus there is not cataclysm only a scene that is way to big finally shrinking to it's actual proportions.
On October 02 2013 19:39 Caladan wrote: In my opinion, thats BS. SC2 gameplay flaws ruined SC2. The game ruined the game. Also Blizzard's price politics ruined SC2 in Asia from the start. It was 60+40 bucks (SC2+HotS) vs free (LoL). That's a joke.
Before WCS it was all just about to break together, Blizzard just prolonged SC2's life with money (WCS). It does not matter if zero viewers watch GSL or if zero viewers watch WCS GSL.
I totally agree with you
I strongly agree as well. The whole WCS thingie is just a bonus. Also, thread title... come on.
It's interesting to see that some people even now STILL deny SC2/WCS is in a crisis, with 8/10 of news are about retirments, disbands and flaws of sc2/blizzard/wcs. Also the WCS viewership drops from day to day, from week to week. Why deny that? To live in a fantasy wonder world?
The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts.
And the nice thing with your proposal is that you can build up Blizzcon as a TI-like event to serve as a closure to the year's story lines.
Exactly. This is what TI and LoL Season Finals that the WCS totally bungled on. In LoL, it's a consensus pretty much that Korea and China are #1 and #2 when it comes to team depth and how good they are, but the five regions in League (NA, Eu, Korea, China, and SEA) only meet twice per year. Once during the all-star event, which while can be an indicator of how good a region is (China and Korea were the finals this year), it is seen as a fun event and thrown together teams from a collection of squads isn't a definite answer. The other time they meet is at the end of the season during the World Finals.
If Riot did what WCS did this year, then that would mean after TSM (the most popular NA team) won the spring season of Riot's LCS equivalent of WCS North America, they would be sent off to play against the best Korean and Chinese teams. This would have most likely ended with TSM getting destroyed, the North American fan base feeling discouraged, and the next season of LCS NA look weak in comparison.
It's alright if WCS NA is region-locked and is considered weaker than WCS Korea. It might be too late with how long we've seen white guys getting beat up by Koreans, but if you can hold off the slaughtering and raise foreign hopes like Scarlett, Naniwa and others throughout the three Europe and NA seasons, the foreign community will latch onto those players and start to believe. Yeah, in the end, the Koreans will most likely win in the end, but it's not a guarantee. Did you see that Finnish player come out of nowhere in WCS Europe Season 3? Wow, he's really good in PvT. Could he make an upset in the World Finals?
You'll probably get backlash at first for just having mostly Euros vs. Euros or Americans vs. Americans (and Polt), but if you keep building new stars, pushing stories and crafting narratives, then people will start to believe in foreigners heading into the World Finals. It doesn't matter if it's a Korean vs. Korean final at Blizzcon, but if you can get people to believe the stories you build up throughout an entire year, then the hype and anticipation of the World Finals would be epic.
On October 02 2013 19:57 Caladan wrote: It's interesting to see that some people even now STILL deny SC2/WCS is in a crisis, with 8/10 of news are about retirments, disbands and flaws of sc2/blizzard/wcs. Also the WCS viewership drops from day to day, from week to week. Why deny that? To live in a fantasy wonder world?
Except all the bad news comes out of Korea, which has several times as many SC2 players as any other region and a population that is watching more LoL. I hear very little bad news coming out of EU or NA.
On October 02 2013 19:57 Caladan wrote: It's interesting to see that some people even now STILL deny SC2/WCS is in a crisis, with 8/10 of news are about retirments, disbands and flaws of sc2/blizzard/wcs. Also the WCS viewership drops from day to day, from week to week. Why deny that? To live in a fantasy wonder world?
Its a fucking off season for a reason. I guess it depends on what you expect from this game. Most people seem to feel like it needs to be the no1 esport globally and in korea. Personally I just need a few koreans to play it for 12 hours a day. I don't think anyone is denying that it's in decline. There is just a difference between people thinking it will go away and people thinking that it's just shrinking to what it can actually sustain.
Fionn but then we will have so little terrans other than KR. Not to mention the general skill gap will just be widen as times go by and more koreans might find it hard to earn enough money. LoL skill gap between each region isn't super high and while I am not that into LoL scene, I know there are pretty much a few talents in each regions and so even in a region vs region tournament, it would appear to be ok.
On October 02 2013 19:29 Plansix wrote: To many teams, not enough money to go around. WCS or no, there are just to many Korean teams for the scene to support right now.
There is no leagues and events in Korea. Brood War had MSL, OSL, SPL and different shows. SC2 has WCS and splited team leagues which are unpopular due to this split.
The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts.
And the nice thing with your proposal is that you can build up Blizzcon as a TI-like event to serve as a closure to the year's story lines.
Exactly. This is what TI and LoL Season Finals that the WCS totally bungled on. In LoL, it's a consensus pretty much that Korea and China are #1 and #2 when it comes to team depth and how good they are, but the five regions in League (NA, Eu, Korea, China, and SEA) only meet twice per year. Once during the all-star event, which while can be an indicator of how good a region is (China and Korea were the finals this year), it is seen as a fun event and thrown together teams from a collection of squads isn't a definite answer. The other time they meet is at the end of the season during the World Finals.
If Riot did what WCS did this year, then that would mean after TSM (the most popular NA team) won the spring season of Riot's LCS equivalent of WCS North America, they would be sent off to play against the best Korean and Chinese teams. This would have most likely ended with TSM getting destroyed, the North American fan base feeling discouraged, and the next season of LCS NA look weak in comparison.
It's alright if WCS NA is region-locked and is considered weaker than WCS Korea. It might be too late with how long we've seen white guys getting beat up by Koreans, but if you can hold off the slaughtering and raise foreign hopes like Scarlett, Naniwa and others throughout the three Europe and NA seasons, the foreign community will latch onto those players and start to believe. Yeah, in the end, the Koreans will most likely win in the end, but it's not a guarantee. Did you see that Finnish player come out of nowhere in WCS Europe Season 3? Wow, he's really good in PvT. Could he make an upset in the World Finals?
You'll probably get backlash at first for just having mostly Euros vs. Euros or Americans vs. Americans (and Polt), but if you keep building new stars, pushing stories and crafting narratives, then people will start to believe in foreigners heading into the World Finals. It doesn't matter if it's a Korean vs. Korean final at Blizzcon, but if you can get people to believe the stories you build up throughout an entire year, then the hype and anticipation of the World Finals would be epic.
Ah Fionn what would we do without you :3 I totally agree on the storyline part especially in combination with the region locking.
On October 02 2013 19:29 Plansix wrote: To many teams, not enough money to go around. WCS or no, there are just to many Korean teams for the scene to support right now.
There is no leagues and events in Korea. Brood War had MSL, OSL, SPL and different shows. SC2 has WCS and splited team leagues which are unpopular due to this split.
Man, they should combined that team league into one super team league!
Oh wait, this is GOM and OGN we are talking about, that will never happen. WCS is not the only problem in the Korea scene.
The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts.
And the nice thing with your proposal is that you can build up Blizzcon as a TI-like event to serve as a closure to the year's story lines.
Exactly. This is what TI and LoL Season Finals that the WCS totally bungled on. In LoL, it's a consensus pretty much that Korea and China are #1 and #2 when it comes to team depth and how good they are, but the five regions in League (NA, Eu, Korea, China, and SEA) only meet twice per year. Once during the all-star event, which while can be an indicator of how good a region is (China and Korea were the finals this year), it is seen as a fun event and thrown together teams from a collection of squads isn't a definite answer. The other time they meet is at the end of the season during the World Finals.
If Riot did what WCS did this year, then that would mean after TSM (the most popular NA team) won the spring season of Riot's LCS equivalent of WCS North America, they would be sent off to play against the best Korean and Chinese teams. This would have most likely ended with TSM getting destroyed, the North American fan base feeling discouraged, and the next season of LCS NA look weak in comparison.
It's alright if WCS NA is region-locked and is considered weaker than WCS Korea. It might be too late with how long we've seen white guys getting beat up by Koreans, but if you can hold off the slaughtering and raise foreign hopes like Scarlett, Naniwa and others throughout the three Europe and NA seasons, the foreign community will latch onto those players and start to believe. Yeah, in the end, the Koreans will most likely win in the end, but it's not a guarantee. Did you see that Finnish player come out of nowhere in WCS Europe Season 3? Wow, he's really good in PvT. Could he make an upset in the World Finals?
You'll probably get backlash at first for just having mostly Euros vs. Euros or Americans vs. Americans (and Polt), but if you keep building new stars, pushing stories and crafting narratives, then people will start to believe in foreigners heading into the World Finals. It doesn't matter if it's a Korean vs. Korean final at Blizzcon, but if you can get people to believe the stories you build up throughout an entire year, then the hype and anticipation of the World Finals would be epic.
you could compare it to the wcg grand finals. people always knew that the foreigners were the clear underdogs BUT there was always hype around certain players and if they managed to take even one map off a korean it was a very big deal
Oooh scathing rebuke of WCS system. Choya thought it would be an abundance of support and opportunities for team and it became hopelessly monolithic for competition and a downer for sponsors.
On October 02 2013 19:41 dabom88 wrote: When Blizzard first announced WCS, people hated it because it had legitimately bad problems.
2 seasons later... people still hate it and the problems have not been fixed. And that doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon.
Since SC2's inception, it seems as though Blizzard has really stuck their fingers in their ears and their heads in the ground, ignoring a lot of the major criticisms people had with them. Korea's the region that that's been effected the most by their ignorance, and it's the region that's suffering the most as the result of it.
And really, should anyone really be surprised? Problems have been apparent for a long time. Players have asked Blizzard to fix them. And Blizzard has stubbornly refused or ignored them. And as much as I love SC2, Blizzard just does not seem to get that their game and approach to e-sports needs major fixing. And as a result, I really find it sad that I don't think there's any more hope for SC2 in Korea. There isn't going to be some kind messiah savior for it. No magic bullet. No healing potion. The Korean audience has made it clear that they don't care for SC2 in its current state, and Blizzard really doesn't look like they're going to do anything to change that. So, unfortunately, that's probably gonna be it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I expect SC2 to continue to decline until it eventually becomes incredibly niche like WC3 in Korea.
As for the rest of the world, it's probably more resilient. SC2 still pretty popular outside of Korea. I can't make any predictions for SC2 outside of Korea right now, as the writing on the wall isn't as clear as it is in Korea.
Sad part is if you think Wc3 is dead in Korea. Its actually MORE popular then sc2 in Korea according various sources.
Fionn ist totally correct. And you do need a soft region lock by residence. As stated it doesn´t help the region at all if some top players (whereever they come from) rush over for 2weeks, grab the top places and the money and leave again to be seen in 3months again. I´ve been saying this for months, if you want to strengthen the local scene, you have to make the top players commit to it. And the point with season finals, yeah totally agree.
On October 02 2013 19:41 dabom88 wrote: When Blizzard first announced WCS, people hated it because it had legitimately bad problems.
2 seasons later... people still hate it and the problems have not been fixed. And that doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon.
Since SC2's inception, it seems as though Blizzard has really stuck their fingers in their ears and their heads in the ground, ignoring a lot of the major criticisms people had with them. Korea's the region that that's been effected the most by their ignorance, and it's the region that's suffering the most as the result of it.
And really, should anyone really be surprised? Problems have been apparent for a long time. Players have asked Blizzard to fix them. And Blizzard has stubbornly refused or ignored them. And as much as I love SC2, Blizzard just does not seem to get that their game and approach to e-sports needs major fixing. And as a result, I really find it sad that I don't think there's any more hope for SC2 in Korea. There isn't going to be some kind messiah savior for it. No magic bullet. No healing potion. The Korean audience has made it clear that they don't care for SC2 in its current state, and Blizzard really doesn't look like they're going to do anything to change that. So, unfortunately, that's probably gonna be it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I expect SC2 to continue to decline until it eventually becomes incredibly niche like WC3 in Korea.
As for the rest of the world, it's probably more resilient. SC2 still pretty popular outside of Korea. I can't make any predictions for SC2 outside of Korea right now, as the writing on the wall isn't as clear as it is in Korea.
Sad part is if you think Wc3 is dead in Korea. Its actually MORE popular then sc2 in Korea according various sources.
WCS isn't THAT bad, it's more about the game. The bo5 between best protoss and best zerg of the world produced mere 14 LR pages, the passion's lacking hardcore.
On October 02 2013 20:10 TaishiCi wrote: Wow the ignorance of people... WCS system is hurting Koreans even more than foreigners. The system helps foreigners much more than Koreans.
Agreed. Instituting a region lock would simply exacerbate this problem.
With the hints we got from Dayshi and uzer about WCS Challenger not qualifying for Premier League 2014, we can safely assume that the WCS will be changed. But Blizzard said that they want to make reasonable changes slowly rather than swiftly, so it remains to be seen if these changes will be enough to stop the bleeding and stabilize shaky foundations.
In the end, the solution has been clear for the most part since the implementation : have players live in their playing regions.
On October 02 2013 20:10 TaishiCi wrote: Wow the ignorance of people... WCS system is hurting Koreans even more than foreigners. The system helps foreigners much more than Koreans.
Agreed. Instituting a region lock would simply exacerbate this problem.
In the bigger scale, nobody cares about Korea anymore especially if Koreans don't. The money isn't in Korea and I don't see the point in subsidizing the best players in the world. It doesn't make any sense at all. If Korea wants to put all its money on a game that will be dominated by China, that's their problem, not ours.
I would be like the NHL building an European league so that they keep their players there (and yes Europe + Russia have more and better player cue IHWC but they don't have the public of the NHL - neither do the USA apparently but that's another story)
On October 02 2013 19:41 dabom88 wrote: When Blizzard first announced WCS, people hated it because it had legitimately bad problems.
2 seasons later... people still hate it and the problems have not been fixed. And that doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon.
Since SC2's inception, it seems as though Blizzard has really stuck their fingers in their ears and their heads in the ground, ignoring a lot of the major criticisms people had with them. Korea's the region that that's been effected the most by their ignorance, and it's the region that's suffering the most as the result of it.
And really, should anyone really be surprised? Problems have been apparent for a long time. Players have asked Blizzard to fix them. And Blizzard has stubbornly refused or ignored them. And as much as I love SC2, Blizzard just does not seem to get that their game and approach to e-sports needs major fixing. And as a result, I really find it sad that I don't think there's any more hope for SC2 in Korea. There isn't going to be some kind messiah savior for it. No magic bullet. No healing potion. The Korean audience has made it clear that they don't care for SC2 in its current state, and Blizzard really doesn't look like they're going to do anything to change that. So, unfortunately, that's probably gonna be it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I expect SC2 to continue to decline until it eventually becomes incredibly niche like WC3 in Korea.
As for the rest of the world, it's probably more resilient. SC2 still pretty popular outside of Korea. I can't make any predictions for SC2 outside of Korea right now, as the writing on the wall isn't as clear as it is in Korea.
Sad part is if you think Wc3 is dead in Korea. Its actually MORE popular then sc2 in Korea according various sources.
Even if that was true - remember that the popularity of a game at PC bangs and their popularity as an spectator sport doesn't necessarily have to be correlated.
On October 02 2013 20:18 juvenal wrote: WCS isn't THAT bad, it's more about the game. The bo5 between best protoss and best zerg of the world produced mere 14 LR pages, the passion's lacking hardcore.
People are to busy soaking up the drama, rather than watching.
On October 02 2013 20:10 TaishiCi wrote: Wow the ignorance of people... WCS system is hurting Koreans even more than foreigners. The system helps foreigners much more than Koreans.
Agreed. Instituting a region lock would simply exacerbate this problem.
If we have OSL and GSL (with its old prize pools which are bigger then WCS) in parallalel instead of 1 WCS I think it will be ok as it was always like this with MSL and OSL.
On October 02 2013 20:15 TeeTS wrote: Fionn ist totally correct. And you do need a soft region lock by residence. As stated it doesn´t help the region at all if some top players (whereever they come from) rush over for 2weeks, grab the top places and the money and leave again to be seen in 3months again. I´ve been saying this for months, if you want to strengthen the local scene, you have to make the top players commit to it. And the point with season finals, yeah totally agree.
I think region lock is fine as long as the prize pool reflects the strength of the regions. I think Korea would be in much worse shape if WCS was region locked and prize pool is the same AND we have no season finals.
That means a player could only win $60,000 by winning all 3 WCS Koreas whereas they got like $40,000+ by winning one GSL.
They should have kept GSL and OSL, PL and GSTL and add WCS to Korea!
Then they could have had a region lock, where the only koreans allowed to play outside of KOREA, would be the ones living abroad or with a Foreign team!
Instead they transformed KOREA into a one tournament only country..Instead of GSL and OSL, they have WCS with much less prize pool..
this is so fucked up.. but i don't care i still like SC2 and to play it.. even if there is less tournaments, money and players there will always be a scene
Look at BW it's getting stronger.. SC2 will always have it's space!
On October 02 2013 20:10 TaishiCi wrote: Wow the ignorance of people... WCS system is hurting Koreans even more than foreigners. The system helps foreigners much more than Koreans.
Agreed. Instituting a region lock would simply exacerbate this problem.
On October 02 2013 20:10 TaishiCi wrote: Wow the ignorance of people... WCS system is hurting Koreans even more than foreigners. The system helps foreigners much more than Koreans.
Agreed. Instituting a region lock would simply exacerbate this problem.
If we have OSL and GSL (with its old prize pools which are bigger then WCS) in parallalel instead of 1 WCS I think it will be ok as it was always like this with MSL and OSL.
Do you honestly think we'll have OSL and GSL both running concurrently with the current state of SC2 in Korea? Think about it.
It's the same fucking mistake like with the global economy. Let's merge everything into a single giant global shit that we can control. Turns out it doesn't work again. Oh well.. At least in video-game industry the results don't have such harsh impact on people's lives.
On October 02 2013 20:18 juvenal wrote: WCS isn't THAT bad, it's more about the game. The bo5 between best protoss and best zerg of the world produced mere 14 LR pages, the passion's lacking hardcore.
Well, it was pretty, pretty early in the middle of the week. Even I missed it and I have a free day and was actually PUMPED to see it.
On October 02 2013 19:41 dabom88 wrote: When Blizzard first announced WCS, people hated it because it had legitimately bad problems.
2 seasons later... people still hate it and the problems have not been fixed. And that doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon.
Since SC2's inception, it seems as though Blizzard has really stuck their fingers in their ears and their heads in the ground, ignoring a lot of the major criticisms people had with them. Korea's the region that that's been effected the most by their ignorance, and it's the region that's suffering the most as the result of it.
And really, should anyone really be surprised? Problems have been apparent for a long time. Players have asked Blizzard to fix them. And Blizzard has stubbornly refused or ignored them. And as much as I love SC2, Blizzard just does not seem to get that their game and approach to e-sports needs major fixing. And as a result, I really find it sad that I don't think there's any more hope for SC2 in Korea. There isn't going to be some kind messiah savior for it. No magic bullet. No healing potion. The Korean audience has made it clear that they don't care for SC2 in its current state, and Blizzard really doesn't look like they're going to do anything to change that. So, unfortunately, that's probably gonna be it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I expect SC2 to continue to decline until it eventually becomes incredibly niche like WC3 in Korea.
As for the rest of the world, it's probably more resilient. SC2 still pretty popular outside of Korea. I can't make any predictions for SC2 outside of Korea right now, as the writing on the wall isn't as clear as it is in Korea.
Sad part is if you think Wc3 is dead in Korea. Its actually MORE popular then sc2 in Korea according various sources.
Link one source -.-
I can't really be bothered to look one up (I didn't make the previous post that you're replying to) but in PC Baang statistics WC3 was outranking SC2 in usage/playtime/whatever, mind you I believe I saw it last pre-HOTS so it could have (maybe) changed since.
On October 02 2013 20:10 TaishiCi wrote: Wow the ignorance of people... WCS system is hurting Koreans even more than foreigners. The system helps foreigners much more than Koreans.
Agreed. Instituting a region lock would simply exacerbate this problem.
If we have OSL and GSL (with its old prize pools which are bigger then WCS) in parallalel instead of 1 WCS I think it will be ok as it was always like this with MSL and OSL.
I think the question is whether OSL/GSL was economical viable IF we had the 3 regional WCS on top of it. That is a LOT of content.
On October 02 2013 20:10 TaishiCi wrote: Wow the ignorance of people... WCS system is hurting Koreans even more than foreigners. The system helps foreigners much more than Koreans.
Agreed. Instituting a region lock would simply exacerbate this problem.
If we have OSL and GSL (with its old prize pools which are bigger then WCS) in parallalel instead of 1 WCS I think it will be ok as it was always like this with MSL and OSL.
Do you honestly think we'll have OSL and GSL both running concurrently with the current state of SC2 in Korea? Think about it.
Maybe not OSL as OGN seems to love lol, thats why i would have given them wcs. GSL on the other hand would have continued without wcs, they even had the entire year planned out before hand.
On October 02 2013 19:41 dabom88 wrote: When Blizzard first announced WCS, people hated it because it had legitimately bad problems.
2 seasons later... people still hate it and the problems have not been fixed. And that doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon.
Since SC2's inception, it seems as though Blizzard has really stuck their fingers in their ears and their heads in the ground, ignoring a lot of the major criticisms people had with them. Korea's the region that that's been effected the most by their ignorance, and it's the region that's suffering the most as the result of it.
And really, should anyone really be surprised? Problems have been apparent for a long time. Players have asked Blizzard to fix them. And Blizzard has stubbornly refused or ignored them. And as much as I love SC2, Blizzard just does not seem to get that their game and approach to e-sports needs major fixing. And as a result, I really find it sad that I don't think there's any more hope for SC2 in Korea. There isn't going to be some kind messiah savior for it. No magic bullet. No healing potion. The Korean audience has made it clear that they don't care for SC2 in its current state, and Blizzard really doesn't look like they're going to do anything to change that. So, unfortunately, that's probably gonna be it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I expect SC2 to continue to decline until it eventually becomes incredibly niche like WC3 in Korea.
As for the rest of the world, it's probably more resilient. SC2 still pretty popular outside of Korea. I can't make any predictions for SC2 outside of Korea right now, as the writing on the wall isn't as clear as it is in Korea.
Wcs was pretty much completely overhauled between season 1 and 2, maybe they didn't make the changes you or others wanted, but they certainly made big changes to try to respond to the criticisms for season 1, the ones jumping out at me are how poorly some of the regional tourny's were run and how it was more than a little difficult to watch any of the smaller country tourny's.
I get that Season 2 is still flawed, but I don't think scraping it halfway through is the right solution, the last thing the scene needs is more turmoil and uncertainty, especially where potential prize earnings are concerned.
I do like Fionn's post about the Season Finals, they're unnecessary, undermine the regular season and really extend the already long WCS season so that there's even less time for other events. And those other events are vital if SC2 is ever going to grow enough to stop being dependent on Blizzard's direct monetary support.
Fionn pretty much hit on all the points I would have made. Fundamentally though I think it comes down to WCS being so pervasive and obtuse.
Code S championship is the pinnacle of achievement with a storied 3-year history. But thanks to WCS its now just part of the bigger competition, with a "grand finals" from multiple regions about a week after it finishes to brush over any interest built up during that season. Its also way more spread out thanks to the whole sharing WCS between GOM and OGN deal, rather than it being a separate tournament. OSL had the potential to come along from BW and carve out its own niche in the SC2 scene so we'd have two big exciting Korean tournaments. But instead we have this mish-mash amalgamated mess of the WCS system.
And with the best players jetting all over the place to give themselves the best chance of reaching those season finals which provide a ton of points towards Blizzcon the Korean scene itself is losing its luster. I don't blame the players but the SC2 scene has actually gone from being a competition to see who is the best to a box-ticking and point-grabbing exercise.
It kinda reminds me of the criticism that school exams face in the UK, where people say the school system has gone from being about teaching kids about subjects and now its teaching them to pass exams. WCS has made SC2 go from being about competing for specific tournament titles to competing for enough points to go to Blizzcon.
sometimes sponsors are faster then rats and crack a huge hole in the ship in order to escape. Glad to hear FXO continues for some time. Hope this trend doesn't continue and the sponsors keep jumping to the next big thing.
On October 02 2013 19:41 dabom88 wrote: When Blizzard first announced WCS, people hated it because it had legitimately bad problems.
2 seasons later... people still hate it and the problems have not been fixed. And that doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon.
Since SC2's inception, it seems as though Blizzard has really stuck their fingers in their ears and their heads in the ground, ignoring a lot of the major criticisms people had with them. Korea's the region that that's been effected the most by their ignorance, and it's the region that's suffering the most as the result of it.
And really, should anyone really be surprised? Problems have been apparent for a long time. Players have asked Blizzard to fix them. And Blizzard has stubbornly refused or ignored them. And as much as I love SC2, Blizzard just does not seem to get that their game and approach to e-sports needs major fixing. And as a result, I really find it sad that I don't think there's any more hope for SC2 in Korea. There isn't going to be some kind messiah savior for it. No magic bullet. No healing potion. The Korean audience has made it clear that they don't care for SC2 in its current state, and Blizzard really doesn't look like they're going to do anything to change that. So, unfortunately, that's probably gonna be it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I expect SC2 to continue to decline until it eventually becomes incredibly niche like WC3 in Korea.
As for the rest of the world, it's probably more resilient. SC2 still pretty popular outside of Korea. I can't make any predictions for SC2 outside of Korea right now, as the writing on the wall isn't as clear as it is in Korea.
Sad part is if you think Wc3 is dead in Korea. Its actually MORE popular then sc2 in Korea according various sources.
Link one source -.-
I can't really be bothered to look one up (I didn't make the previous post that you're replying to) but in PC Baang statistics WC3 was outranking SC2 in usage/playtime/whatever, mind you I believe I saw it last pre-HOTS so it could have (maybe) changed since.
Let me tell you a bit about these stats. I They come only from PC Bangs, the korean internet cafes you go to to play your game. They use special accounts for every game with special promotions. For example more XP in an MMORPG or special items. Or, big example. ALL CHAMPIONS AVAILALBE in League of Legends. Special case for me is ArcheAge, because I play that game, and I know that PC Bang visitors are like 300% more efficient in that game. So koreans prefer to play in PC Bangs and socialize.
With Starcraft 2 however, you almost gain nothing from going into PC Bang. A new portrait or something? I don't even know. And you just have to be in a loud environment. So I think, as a Starcraft 2 player, you would prefer to play at home, right?
Starcraft: BW is an exception, because games like Big Game Hunters and everything are pretty popular and it is more played for fun than anything. You can even see adults play it for fun without even thinking about the competetive scene. In the game mentioned(ArcheAge) I have a lot of old korean guys in my guild, like 30+, and they regularly tell me that they enjoy SC:BW more than SC2, simply because they played it when they were younger and it just sticks to them.
It's hard to replace something like that, and when everyone is telling you the "#dedgame2013" because SC2 is played differently and for different reasons, has lower viewership numbers than a game that has 30+ million players you believe it even more.
So my point is: These numbers are only natural. They are, however, bad indicators of the true "state of the game" in korea. If anything, we should look at league placements in korea. Those are way better indicators than PC Bang stats.
That does not mean I am defending WCS or Blizzard, I just want to get rid of the self-fullfilling prophecy that SC2 is a dead game. It's only dead if you call it that way.(Not directly saying it to the guy I quoted, just in general.)
I think we're missing the point here, with everyone jumping in and telling what they dislike about WCS. That's not the topic.
Can anyone actually argue that the big breakdown now wouldn't have happened without WCS? Even before WCS we had empty GSL studios, etc. Why do you people actually think it's not the game's fault and that it is just plain too bad/too boring to watch, but the fault of WCS?
On October 02 2013 19:41 dabom88 wrote: When Blizzard first announced WCS, people hated it because it had legitimately bad problems.
2 seasons later... people still hate it and the problems have not been fixed. And that doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon.
Since SC2's inception, it seems as though Blizzard has really stuck their fingers in their ears and their heads in the ground, ignoring a lot of the major criticisms people had with them. Korea's the region that that's been effected the most by their ignorance, and it's the region that's suffering the most as the result of it.
And really, should anyone really be surprised? Problems have been apparent for a long time. Players have asked Blizzard to fix them. And Blizzard has stubbornly refused or ignored them. And as much as I love SC2, Blizzard just does not seem to get that their game and approach to e-sports needs major fixing. And as a result, I really find it sad that I don't think there's any more hope for SC2 in Korea. There isn't going to be some kind messiah savior for it. No magic bullet. No healing potion. The Korean audience has made it clear that they don't care for SC2 in its current state, and Blizzard really doesn't look like they're going to do anything to change that. So, unfortunately, that's probably gonna be it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I expect SC2 to continue to decline until it eventually becomes incredibly niche like WC3 in Korea.
As for the rest of the world, it's probably more resilient. SC2 still pretty popular outside of Korea. I can't make any predictions for SC2 outside of Korea right now, as the writing on the wall isn't as clear as it is in Korea.
Sad part is if you think Wc3 is dead in Korea. Its actually MORE popular then sc2 in Korea according various sources.
Link one source -.-
I can't really be bothered to look one up (I didn't make the previous post that you're replying to) but in PC Baang statistics WC3 was outranking SC2 in usage/playtime/whatever, mind you I believe I saw it last pre-HOTS so it could have (maybe) changed since.
Thank you for linking for me I couldnt find the most recent but I knew I was right. Also I was going by PC bangs most played games which is a good indicator of popularity in korea. However Ive spoken with a few koreans and they say starctaft2 isnt exactly a game you wanna be playing at a PC bang.
I admit having just "WCS" everywere is kind bad for a viewer like me. I loved the idea of having multiple world class competitions like WCS/DH/GSL/IPL/NSL and later added OSL because of:
1. Different atmosphere in each competition...different live events and setups make it REALLY visually appealing 2. Competition between organizers... when i watched a competition let's say MLG, in my mind i was going "oh hell this is good..i wonder what the other guys will pull out to match this experience!"...there was a sense of surprise 3. Somewhat different methods of organizing matches. 4. MORE LIVE EVENTS!
These are the first that pop up in my mind at the moment but the most prominent. Now with just WCS and occasionally DH it's "mmeh....whatever..".
Don't get it twisted guys. Choya is seeing this from a narrow minded point of view. I like the guy and have always supported him. I have a lot of respect for Choya for sticking around with the team when it look like it was going to fall apart back in the day, but here it goes. WCS is actually the best thing that could have happened to StarCraft 2. Because of WCS there are more region where top players can bank GOOD cash. Before WCS the GSL was oversaturated with good players that were not making good money because the competition was so tight. You guys remember when Bomber, Donraegu and Hero couldn't make it out of code B. That was the issue. Good players were stuck and players in Code A were getting trash income. Even the low end Code S players were not really making good money. The WCS has opened the door for top players to move to other leagues/regions and be successful. This in turn has made new you foreign talent step up and meet the challenge. This is why we saw this last year top players like Stephano and Scarlett come into the scene. The future of starcraft is not just in Korea. It can be succesfull there still but if we want StarCraft to be better than it has been it needs to expand. There are way more sponsors now than ever and way more viewers watching SC2 because the time zones accommodate the local viewers who cheer for the local talent involved with the Koreans. I am a good example of this. I use to miss tons of GSL games because in my time slot I was not going to get up at 2am to watch GSL. Now I see WCS EU and WCS America on a steady basis. I get to see WCS KR when I can but its not like if I am missing much like before when Gomtv was the only venue. Choya needs to look at the bigger picture. He needs to adapt to survive in this changing model of SC2. You wonder why Polt is now in the US or why Innovation is in team Acer. That's just a few we constantly see Koreans signing and playing in foreing teams. For example I believe if Choya moved his team to like California, USA they would be much more successful. The scene here is booming for SC2. WCS has good prize money plus his team would already be competitive. Having Blizzcon locally every year cuts on travel cost plus any MLG SC2 scene is within reach on a quick flight from there. It is incredibly hard for any team to compete with the likes of IM or SK or other top teams with big sponsors. There is plenty of opportunity it just might not be in Korea anymore.
On October 02 2013 19:41 dabom88 wrote: When Blizzard first announced WCS, people hated it because it had legitimately bad problems.
2 seasons later... people still hate it and the problems have not been fixed. And that doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon.
Since SC2's inception, it seems as though Blizzard has really stuck their fingers in their ears and their heads in the ground, ignoring a lot of the major criticisms people had with them. Korea's the region that that's been effected the most by their ignorance, and it's the region that's suffering the most as the result of it.
And really, should anyone really be surprised? Problems have been apparent for a long time. Players have asked Blizzard to fix them. And Blizzard has stubbornly refused or ignored them. And as much as I love SC2, Blizzard just does not seem to get that their game and approach to e-sports needs major fixing. And as a result, I really find it sad that I don't think there's any more hope for SC2 in Korea. There isn't going to be some kind messiah savior for it. No magic bullet. No healing potion. The Korean audience has made it clear that they don't care for SC2 in its current state, and Blizzard really doesn't look like they're going to do anything to change that. So, unfortunately, that's probably gonna be it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I expect SC2 to continue to decline until it eventually becomes incredibly niche like WC3 in Korea.
As for the rest of the world, it's probably more resilient. SC2 still pretty popular outside of Korea. I can't make any predictions for SC2 outside of Korea right now, as the writing on the wall isn't as clear as it is in Korea.
Sad part is if you think Wc3 is dead in Korea. Its actually MORE popular then sc2 in Korea according various sources.
Link one source -.-
I can't really be bothered to look one up (I didn't make the previous post that you're replying to) but in PC Baang statistics WC3 was outranking SC2 in usage/playtime/whatever, mind you I believe I saw it last pre-HOTS so it could have (maybe) changed since.
On October 02 2013 19:41 dabom88 wrote: When Blizzard first announced WCS, people hated it because it had legitimately bad problems.
2 seasons later... people still hate it and the problems have not been fixed. And that doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon.
Since SC2's inception, it seems as though Blizzard has really stuck their fingers in their ears and their heads in the ground, ignoring a lot of the major criticisms people had with them. Korea's the region that that's been effected the most by their ignorance, and it's the region that's suffering the most as the result of it.
And really, should anyone really be surprised? Problems have been apparent for a long time. Players have asked Blizzard to fix them. And Blizzard has stubbornly refused or ignored them. And as much as I love SC2, Blizzard just does not seem to get that their game and approach to e-sports needs major fixing. And as a result, I really find it sad that I don't think there's any more hope for SC2 in Korea. There isn't going to be some kind messiah savior for it. No magic bullet. No healing potion. The Korean audience has made it clear that they don't care for SC2 in its current state, and Blizzard really doesn't look like they're going to do anything to change that. So, unfortunately, that's probably gonna be it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I expect SC2 to continue to decline until it eventually becomes incredibly niche like WC3 in Korea.
As for the rest of the world, it's probably more resilient. SC2 still pretty popular outside of Korea. I can't make any predictions for SC2 outside of Korea right now, as the writing on the wall isn't as clear as it is in Korea.
As long as the crowd claps when some blizzard staff appears on stage in a tournament, nothing will change. I mean blizzards drm postponed dh bucharest for hours and afterwards all clap happily and cheed
On October 02 2013 19:57 Caladan wrote: It's interesting to see that some people even now STILL deny SC2/WCS is in a crisis, with 8/10 of news are about retirments, disbands and flaws of sc2/blizzard/wcs. Also the WCS viewership drops from day to day, from week to week. Why deny that? To live in a fantasy wonder world?
Except all the bad news comes out of Korea, which has several times as many SC2 players as any other region and a population that is watching more LoL. I hear very little bad news coming out of EU or NA.
You are comparing professional & amateur. And professional business is more likely to expose to risks like economic downturn, interests and stuffs. Hey I can sign some decent Koreans and form a team too if I got a few thousand bucks.
On October 02 2013 20:48 JustPassingBy wrote: Dunno why people are only complaining about WCS, WCS EU is totally awesome. I have never seen so many up and coming players than right now! :D
I think Choya is mainly talking about WCS KR, which pretty much took over everything. It's only WCS now for them, and thats just bad. I really hope for the next year WCS goes a different path!
I've no idea why all you people seem so surprised. From the very beginning of SC2 it was a game that was hyped over the top in hopes it'd become what BW was with probably 0 understanding by Blizzard on what actually made BW great. The only thing SC2 has in common with BW is the name of Starcraft, and if it hadn't no one would care about the game some 12 months after its release.
SC2 is artificial. You know those local footballers who constantly get mentioned by the press just to try and get their price up so they could be sold for 500k € more? That's SC2 for you, a sorry opportunity to monetize on the brand since they failed to do so with BW.
Unlike BW, SC2 didn't go through the natural process of growing and getting people to like and love it, the game was forced upon everyone. BW has suffered a violent death at the hands of Blizzard and people got left with only 2 options, play SC2 or play a different game. Same goes for viewers. And if that wasn't enough Blizz even tried to kill off the amateur BW leagues, but fortunately failed at it.
Fast forward to a year ago, Blizzard got even greedier in their attempts to monetize on SC2 with the WCS system and effectively forced other companies/leagues out of SC2 business. And what do we get out of it? Do we even have an uncontested best player in the world with WCS season finals? Isn't the point of season finals to get an uncontested best champion in the world fight his way through the very best of the best of other regions?
Imo, season finals should be held once per year, not once every 3-4 months. Like Fionn wrote, this season crap gives no chance to fans to connect with players. My biggest remark to the WCS system is allowing non-residents of the region to nontheless participate in the qualifiers. That goes to every washed out, sub par KR player that probably wouldn't even get 100 points if he competed in Korea, even if he is MVP. It's beyond me why it is allowed for such has beens to effectively kill the local scenes. What good is a region qualifier when the "homegrown" players of the region get pushed aside for more marketable has beens? How does one even grow a scene by importing players from KR to compete as Europeans or Americans?
Would be nice if you guys could show us some of those lists in english for all of us who don't know Korean.
On topic, I think Choya is absolutely right and the way Blizzard has gone about doing the WCS was a massive mistake. They should have left the GSL and OSL alone and introduced the WCS tournaments on top of that like they did last year. Then there would be much more prize money to go around and not as many people would retire.
Weather Korea has enough interest in SC2 left to support 3 major leagues and 2 team leagues is a different discussion, but Blizzard didn't need to come and destabilize the scene by forcing it to shrink, that's the main point we are all getting at.
There is nothing more to do this year regarding the WCS system, I just hope we've all made ourselves heard loud enough that Blizzard will make some important changes next year.
I agree 100% with Fionn the region locking and additional grand slam seasonal finals are not helping. The lack of region lock only allows the Koreans to come in and take money back into their own ecosystem (and who will blame them when their own scene got fucked over in another way), while not contributing anything to our scene. And the grand slams are more like an exclusivity club anyway, they only reward the top 5-6 players per region and they don't build interesting storylines.
It seems almost impossible to find a good middle ground with one country being as dominant as it is. The nationality/region lock of the 2012 WCS created great storylines (Stephano, Lucifron, Babyknight) but it was also obvious that WCS Asia and WCS World would be a Korean PvP fest. Many complained that the level was too low, and rather praised GSL.
Other sports solve this by having strict limitations to the nations, even if 50 of the best 200 sprinters were from Jamaica, only 5 would go to the world championship. Maybe the only hope is that Korea gets so starved for money that they dont produce all the best players anymore??
On October 02 2013 19:41 dabom88 wrote: When Blizzard first announced WCS, people hated it because it had legitimately bad problems.
2 seasons later... people still hate it and the problems have not been fixed. And that doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon.
Since SC2's inception, it seems as though Blizzard has really stuck their fingers in their ears and their heads in the ground, ignoring a lot of the major criticisms people had with them. Korea's the region that that's been effected the most by their ignorance, and it's the region that's suffering the most as the result of it.
And really, should anyone really be surprised? Problems have been apparent for a long time. Players have asked Blizzard to fix them. And Blizzard has stubbornly refused or ignored them. And as much as I love SC2, Blizzard just does not seem to get that their game and approach to e-sports needs major fixing. And as a result, I really find it sad that I don't think there's any more hope for SC2 in Korea. There isn't going to be some kind messiah savior for it. No magic bullet. No healing potion. The Korean audience has made it clear that they don't care for SC2 in its current state, and Blizzard really doesn't look like they're going to do anything to change that. So, unfortunately, that's probably gonna be it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I expect SC2 to continue to decline until it eventually becomes incredibly niche like WC3 in Korea.
As for the rest of the world, it's probably more resilient. SC2 still pretty popular outside of Korea. I can't make any predictions for SC2 outside of Korea right now, as the writing on the wall isn't as clear as it is in Korea.
Sad part is if you think Wc3 is dead in Korea. Its actually MORE popular then sc2 in Korea according various sources.
Link one source -.-
I can't really be bothered to look one up (I didn't make the previous post that you're replying to) but in PC Baang statistics WC3 was outranking SC2 in usage/playtime/whatever, mind you I believe I saw it last pre-HOTS so it could have (maybe) changed since.
I suppose FXO has read their fair share of the loud haters/doomdsday-cryers...
The only bad thing about WCS imo is the "non-competing" rule. WCS is a great thing, but it would be even better if other tournaments were allowed to compete with it.
I absolutly DISAGREE with Choya. WCS does NOT hurt Starcarft. Is ist Blizzards fault that their are so few little tournaments in Korea?? No. In Europe we have hundrets of cups and things. I watch everything broadcastet from WCS EU, much from WCS NA and some of WCS KR. And if I dont watch, its just because of broadcasting time and my job dont fit together.
We need two little fixes: 1. As Fiona said: Stop the season Finals --> One big Event at the End of the year is enough. 2. LOCK THE F***ING REGIONS!
On October 02 2013 20:49 esdf wrote: I've no idea why all you people seem so surprised. From the very beginning of SC2 it was a game that was hyped over the top in hopes it'd become what BW was with probably 0 understanding by Blizzard on what actually made BW great. The only thing SC2 has in common with BW is the name of Starcraft, and if it hadn't no one would care about the game some 12 months after its release.
SC2 is artificial. You know those local footballers who constantly get mentioned by the press just to try and get their price up so they could be sold for 500k € more? That's SC2 for you, a sorry opportunity to monetize on the brand since they failed to do so with BW.
Unlike BW, SC2 didn't go through the natural process of growing and getting people to like and love it, the game was forced upon everyone. BW has suffered a violent death at the hands of Blizzard and people got left with only 2 options, play SC2 or play a different game. Same goes for viewers.
So true. Agree.
People just see SC2 shrinking 1 year after WCS was introduced and now see a causal link, where there is none.
On October 02 2013 20:50 Destructicon wrote: Would be nice if you guys could show us some of those lists in english for all of us who don't know Korean.
On October 02 2013 20:55 Bjarne wrote: I absolutly DISAGREE with Choya. WCS does NOT hurt Starcarft. Is ist Blizzards fault that their are so few little tournaments in Korea?? No. In Europe we have hundrets of cups and things. I watch everything broadcastet from WCS EU, much from WCS NA and some of WCS KR. And if I dont watch, its just because of broadcasting time and my job dont fit together.
We need two little fixes: 1. As Fiona said: Stop the season Finals --> One big Event at the End of the year is enough. 2. LOCK THE F***ING REGIONS!
I do agree that the lack of things like the korean weekly is not blizzards fault. However given as OSL/Code s were integrated into wcs combined with the fact that you cant run any premier tournaments during WCS I fail to see how OGN/GOM are supposed to do another tournament. Besides the fact that given that they are wcs partners I highly doubt blizz would even allow them to do so.
the problem with locking regions is that it will immediately kill the korean scene unless the GSL and OSL start to run concurrently, which the korean scene simply isn't big enough to support. I don't know what to do, but a good start would be a healthy, unified Korean team league for sponsors and teams to really push in an effort to get fan excitement back.
right now the atmosphere is just terrible everywhere. even just watching the GSL no longer feels like much of an event. GOM bought a big new studio just in time to have no one show up to it, and tastosis barely muster any excitement during the games. something has to change.
On October 02 2013 20:50 Destructicon wrote: On topic, I think Choya is absolutely right and the way Blizzard has gone about doing the WCS was a massive mistake. They should have left the GSL and OSL alone and introduced the WCS tournaments on top of that like they did last year. Then there would be much more prize money to go around and not as many people would retire.
Why does everyone think the OSL would have continued? Seems pretty clear they were done with sc2 and the only reason they ran another one was, because Blizzard payed for it. And considering Blizzard were already paying GOM don't you think it's a bit much to ask them to pay for another tournament on top of that? I know they did it last year, but that doesn't mean we should expect from them to do so every year. And even if all 3 tournaments remained pretty much the same people would be in them. Sure it's more chance for the players, but I don't see that affecting retirements that much.
And the most hilarious thing is that blizz will probably do all kinds of nasty e-sport stuff after LotV comes out... Make arcade or multiplayer free and start selling hats for banelings... But then, again, who needs sc2 when they got all the hearthstone hype going... Yey for hearthstone wcs
I think it's to late though. The WCS sprayed their stink onto the market and made sc2 one of the Least watched eSports which is very sad. I love Starcraft and have been a very loyal customer for 15 years and grew up watching what proscene i could watch when I coudl watch it. I feel starcraft had the Hayday when IPL was doing a constant stream that was AWESOME but that has been shutdown and it felt like the scene was growing then and now it feels like its Dying very quickly.... I just wish someone was out there to bring it back to life and start making it grow again....... I don't want to Lose starcraft .....
On October 02 2013 20:50 Destructicon wrote: Would be nice if you guys could show us some of those lists in english for all of us who don't know Korean.
@esdf: Although you're wrong about what SC2 is, I agree that season finals shouldn't be that often.
Thanks for the post, though one thing isn't clear, in your 2nd list you put Starcraft at 7 and also noted SC is at #18, thats a bit confusing, which SC is where? Is SC2 on 7 or is it in 18?
On October 02 2013 20:17 lichter wrote: Region lock with the current WCS system and I retire
Well, with like 5 pro gamers/teams/coaches retiring a day, that wouldn't make the world implode, would it?
I'd like for someone to replace me already, honestly :p
you're sure negative lately aren't you.
I'm just trying to fit in
edit: honestly it's reached the point where news hardly affects me, even the Woongjin news. I only really care about the community so all this bad news finds me... disinterested. I still love the game though I just shitpost on TL a lot
On October 02 2013 21:04 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think it's to late though. The WCS sprayed their stink onto the market and made sc2 one of the Least watched eSports which is very sad. I love Starcraft and have been a very loyal customer for 15 years and grew up watching what proscene i could watch when I coudl watch it. I feel starcraft had the Hayday when IPL was doing a constant stream that was AWESOME but that has been shutdown and it felt like the scene was growing then and now it feels like its Dying very quickly.... I just wish someone was out there to bring it back to life and start making it grow again....... I don't want to Lose starcraft .....
Name one game besides dota and lol and at some time of the year fighting games that, on average, gets more. I could name you like 10 esports that get less viewers and are smaller than star 2. It's not dieing and you won't loose it, jesus people I feel like all of you joined esports with star 2 and are now butthurt that the game no longer has the number 1 spot.
On October 02 2013 20:50 Destructicon wrote: Would be nice if you guys could show us some of those lists in english for all of us who don't know Korean.
@esdf: Although you're wrong about what SC2 is, I agree that season finals shouldn't be that often.
Thanks for the post, though one thing isn't clear, in your 2nd list you put Starcraft at 7 and also noted SC is at #18, thats a bit confusing, which SC is where? Is SC2 on 7 or is it in 18?
Starcraft = BW, SC2 = SC2! So, for PC Bangs, BW is #7. But when you consider games being played at home, it's #26 while SC2 is #17! Sorry for the confusion.
It's honestly time blizzard does like valve and riot do. Pump some serious cash into the competitive scene. They were too greedy on this one and this is their downfall ...
On October 02 2013 20:17 lichter wrote: Region lock with the current WCS system and I retire
Well, with like 5 pro gamers/teams/coaches retiring a day, that wouldn't make the world implode, would it?
I'd like for someone to replace me already, honestly :p
you're sure negative lately aren't you.
I'm just trying to fit in
edit: honestly it's reached the point where news hardly affects me, even the Woongjin news. I only really care about the community so all this bad news finds me... disinterested. I still love the game though I just shitpost on TL a lot
On October 02 2013 21:12 RouaF wrote: It's honestly time blizzard does like valve and riot do. Pump some serious cash into the competitive scene. They were too greedy on this one and this is their downfall ...
Cash won't help. The problem is the lack of viewers and thus lack of sponsors and thus teams/players retiring. -_- And why is there a lack of viewers? Because the game is shit.
On October 02 2013 21:04 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think it's to late though. The WCS sprayed their stink onto the market and made sc2 one of the Least watched eSports which is very sad. I love Starcraft and have been a very loyal customer for 15 years and grew up watching what proscene i could watch when I coudl watch it. I feel starcraft had the Hayday when IPL was doing a constant stream that was AWESOME but that has been shutdown and it felt like the scene was growing then and now it feels like its Dying very quickly.... I just wish someone was out there to bring it back to life and start making it grow again....... I don't want to Lose starcraft .....
"One of the least watched eSports" being what, the 2nd or 3rd most watched internationally?
Unlike BW, SC2 didn't go through the natural process of growing and getting people to like and love it, the game was forced upon everyone. BW has suffered a violent death at the hands of Blizzard and people got left with only 2 options, play SC2 or play a different game. Same goes for viewers. And if that wasn't enough Blizz even tried to kill off the amateur BW leagues, but fortunately failed at it.
?
This.
BW was like
unpopular -> played by people > koreans fell in love with it > companies sponsor it > esport
while SC2
force it as esport > played by people > players/fans lose passion as time passes > unpopular
On October 02 2013 20:22 Everlong wrote: It's the same fucking mistake like with the global economy. Let's merge everything into a single giant global shit that we can control. Turns out it doesn't work again. Oh well.. At least in video-game industry the results don't have such harsh impact on people's lives.
trust me, global economy benefits out number the flaws in every way possible
On October 02 2013 20:22 Everlong wrote: It's the same fucking mistake like with the global economy. Let's merge everything into a single giant global shit that we can control. Turns out it doesn't work again. Oh well.. At least in video-game industry the results don't have such harsh impact on people's lives.
trust me, global economy benefits out number the flaws in every way possible
I'm not sure I quite understeand you, could you elaborate? Kinda getting offtopic here, so I don't know, we might as well leave it..
On October 02 2013 20:50 Destructicon wrote: Would be nice if you guys could show us some of those lists in english for all of us who don't know Korean.
@esdf: Although you're wrong about what SC2 is, I agree that season finals shouldn't be that often.
Thanks for the post, though one thing isn't clear, in your 2nd list you put Starcraft at 7 and also noted SC is at #18, thats a bit confusing, which SC is where? Is SC2 on 7 or is it in 18?
Starcraft = BW, SC2 = SC2! So, for PC Bangs, BW is #7. But when you consider games being played at home, it's #26 while SC2 is #17! Sorry for the confusion.
Ok thank you for the post and for the clarification again. It would be nice now to see some actual numbers, not percentages, of how many people play those respective games both at home and at PC bangs and also have the total added up to get a bigger picture, though I might be asking for too much now.
Anyway, hopefully at least the bad news stops pouring in.
On October 02 2013 21:04 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think it's to late though. The WCS sprayed their stink onto the market and made sc2 one of the Least watched eSports which is very sad. I love Starcraft and have been a very loyal customer for 15 years and grew up watching what proscene i could watch when I coudl watch it. I feel starcraft had the Hayday when IPL was doing a constant stream that was AWESOME but that has been shutdown and it felt like the scene was growing then and now it feels like its Dying very quickly.... I just wish someone was out there to bring it back to life and start making it grow again....... I don't want to Lose starcraft .....
Name one game besides dota and lol and at some time of the year fighting games that, on average, gets more. I could name you like 10 esports that get less viewers and are smaller than star 2. It's not dieing and you won't loose it, jesus people I feel like all of you joined esports with star 2 and are now butthurt that the game no longer has the number 1 spot.
yup, most people are just butthurt SC2 isn't #1 anymore like the glory days. It's quite evident when most arguments point towards LoL/DotA for a comparison on what isn't making SC2 #1 anymore. When in actual fact, the overall viewership hasn't decreased at all for SC2 (dont remember which thread it was, but it had statistics etc), it just looks bad since people on the internet are too focused on the negatives and very rarely themselves see the full picture of SC2 and esports in general, they base their opinions on what's happened recently e.g. "drama" events, but realistically, is that really the best gauge on how a game is doing? I'd say not. I bet if we were #1 viewership, biggest/hypest live crowds watching the game, we'd probably have less people argueing about design and WCS formats.
On October 02 2013 21:12 RouaF wrote: It's honestly time blizzard does like valve and riot do. Pump some serious cash into the competitive scene. They were too greedy on this one and this is their downfall ...
Cash won't help. The problem is the lack of viewers and thus lack of sponsors and thus teams/players retiring. -_- And why is there a lack of viewers? Because the game is shit.
Viewers come 2nd. Playerbase is all that matters. Get 1kk players, put a huge fucken banner on the front of battlenet and, shazam, you got yourself some viewers. Can't make a good esport out of $100 game while there is free stuff like LoL or d2+sc2 really needs baneling hats...
Because of WCS, all the foundations have crumbled. If things go like this again next year, then StarCraft 2 teams will be hurt even more."
He is clearly confusing causation with correlation. WCS didn't ruin Sc2. I think it likely wouldn't have been even worse without WCS, but eventually if there are not enough viewers watching Sc2, then the size of this scene couldn't be sustained. Thus, it has to be scaled down.
Correlation vs causation fallacy was definitely committed here. However he isn't entirely incorrect. With WCS, That is the only thing Blizzard is focusing on. There's no more major tournaments outside of WCS that I can think of aside from Dreamhack and IEM. MLG dropped SC2. NASL didn't run this year I don't think. IPL is dead. What else is left for SC2?
SC2 is dying. Instead of providing more money for the teams, Blizzard needs to go back to either having more tournaments running, or have complete control over any and all tournaments like RIOT does with LCS. They also need to fix the fact that WCS AM and EU is not the same as WCS KR, where top 8 is played over a weekend compared to WCS KR, which uses the GSL format.
On October 02 2013 21:12 RouaF wrote: It's honestly time blizzard does like valve and riot do. Pump some serious cash into the competitive scene. They were too greedy on this one and this is their downfall ...
Cash won't help. The problem is the lack of viewers and thus lack of sponsors and thus teams/players retiring. -_- And why is there a lack of viewers? Because the game is shit.
Viewers come 2nd. Playerbase is all that matters. Get 1kk players, put a huge fucken banner on the front of battlenet and, shazam, you got yourself some viewers. Can't make a good esport out of $100 game while there is free stuff like LoL or d2+sc2 really needs baneling hats...
Yeah, that's true. Mostly: Viewers = Players / x. But then again, the result doesn't change. It's the game's fault for losing so much players. Just compare WoL sales with HotS sales, it's ridiculous.
Unlike BW, SC2 didn't go through the natural process of growing and getting people to like and love it, the game was forced upon everyone. BW has suffered a violent death at the hands of Blizzard and people got left with only 2 options, play SC2 or play a different game. Same goes for viewers. And if that wasn't enough Blizz even tried to kill off the amateur BW leagues, but fortunately failed at it.
?
This.
BW was like
unpopular -> played by people > koreans fell in love with it > companies sponsor it > esport
while SC2
force it as esport > played by people > players/fans lose passion as time passes > unpopular
total reverse :|
It's the burden of being a successor to an e-sports title. Only game I know of where it looks like it works is Dota 2 and that's more of a remake.
I don`t see how the scene is shrinking because of WCS. It seemed to be shrinking even before (IPL going down), and HOTS was just a temporary boost of interest. WCS or no WCS, imo does not make a difference to me as a viewer or casual player.
On the korean side of things, I am pretty sure I saw plenty of empty as fuck studios for starleague when they did the hybrid dual tournament and began the transition in proleague to sc2. All before this new WCS. Koreans just don`t seem to care for sc2 so I`m not sure it is a WCS issue.
On October 02 2013 21:12 RouaF wrote: It's honestly time blizzard does like valve and riot do. Pump some serious cash into the competitive scene. They were too greedy on this one and this is their downfall ...
Cash won't help. The problem is the lack of viewers and thus lack of sponsors and thus teams/players retiring. -_- And why is there a lack of viewers? Because the game is shit.
Players are retiring because the scene got double the amount of players once kespa switched of course the scene can't support that instantly. Teams disbanding are more so the sponsors have problems within their own companies, the companies themselves are financially unstable not because of sponsoring teams, get your facts right.
It is sad to see so much people criticizing WCS It is not WCS fault, Why would it be in correlation to the amount of retirements? Because they dont get a chance?
Let's be real here and look at the amount of Korean teams Sc2 has in comparison to what it was in BW? And what alot of people overlook is that the economic crisis also has a hand in the choices companies make in sponsoring teams and what also causes them to STOP sponsering teams like with STX being bankrupt and what woongjin is going through now.
we can bash the WCS all the time BUT do realize that the Sc2 scene in korea is just too stacked with players.
Unlike BW, SC2 didn't go through the natural process of growing and getting people to like and love it, the game was forced upon everyone. BW has suffered a violent death at the hands of Blizzard and people got left with only 2 options, play SC2 or play a different game. Same goes for viewers. And if that wasn't enough Blizz even tried to kill off the amateur BW leagues, but fortunately failed at it.
?
This.
BW was like
unpopular -> played by people > koreans fell in love with it > companies sponsor it > esport
while SC2
force it as esport > played by people > players/fans lose passion as time passes > unpopular
total reverse :|
It's the burden of being a successor to an e-sports title. Only game I know of where it looks like it works is Dota 2 and that's more of a remake.
It's literally a remake, actually. When the developer can patch both the older game and the new game with nearly identical content (with some delay for Dota 2 due to needing better/non-Blizzard models), then it's a remake.
On October 02 2013 19:43 Ketch wrote: Pfff.... Korea just needs more tournaments next to WCS that's all. Is it Blizz'es fault that there are no additional tournaments? I don't think so. They can just be organized right?
you need big companies to make it successful. Because Proteams / Players wont join it anyways if the prize pool is small. And those remaining sponsors are already in GSL / OSL which WCS took.
I still don't see this as a sign that "SC2 is dying", but a natural reaction to the overall shrinking of the scene that requires restructuring of teams as a response. Definitely not good news to see three teams fall in the past week, but the scene will survive on.
On October 02 2013 21:12 RouaF wrote: It's honestly time blizzard does like valve and riot do. Pump some serious cash into the competitive scene. They were too greedy on this one and this is their downfall ...
Cash won't help. The problem is the lack of viewers and thus lack of sponsors and thus teams/players retiring. -_- And why is there a lack of viewers? Because the game is shit.
Viewers come 2nd. Playerbase is all that matters. Get 1kk players, put a huge fucken banner on the front of battlenet and, shazam, you got yourself some viewers. Can't make a good esport out of $100 game while there is free stuff like LoL or d2+sc2 really needs baneling hats...
Yeah, that's true. Mostly: Viewers = Player * x. But then again, the result doesn't change. It's the game's fault for losing so much players. Just compare WoL sales with HotS sales, it's ridiculous.
The sad thing is that blizz cant understand that f2p and micro-transactions are the future of e-sports. Gives you tons of flexibility with the game, you can fix whatever you want however you want and just tell people to go fuck themselves, coz you are doing things for greater good (and cmon, the game is free). I mean, sc2 got shitloads of potential for micro-transactions. Custom unit decals, announcers, decals for building, baneling hats(god i hope baneling hats will happen one day) Or just make an amazing game from the start that everybody falls in love with it and throws cash into monitors... Sadly, blizzard doesnt do that, but they are learning. Hope their experience with hearthstone will somehow transition to sc2 (bla bla bla, casual, bla bla bla, gfys)
On October 02 2013 19:24 GizmoPT wrote: we need some savior of eSports
We have - It is called Dota 2. The interest in this game is almost the same as the one in SC2 but the system provided by Valve is much better for eSports ( every team can win money by selling in game items, no matter of the tournament results). As you can see there are tournaments non stop atm, even MLG wont make SC2 events anymore, but they will do Dota 2, same thing starting in Korea. Of course there will always be SC events in Korea, but i think that Dota 2 will overcome Star Craft unless Blizzard do something about that.
I've tried giving it a chance but WCS is just rubbish. Coming towards the end of the 3rd season we're seeing a lot of mediocore Korean players in AM and EU getting the best chance of qualifying for the year end finals. Blizzard's attempt to get the foreigners those spots have failed miserably.
I think this is often the result of affirmative action and I really can't blame Blizzard for trying because the community demands foreigners... Rofl, this is so ironically sad for me as a fan of SC2, not only will many of the most skilled players not get a fair chance of qualifying for Blizzcon simply because they play in KR, the most skilled and competitive region, they are also suffering financially and the game's popularity is falling.
Sigh, I guess this is how it all goes down. Blizzard needs to reconsider the WCS system, it's simply not working. Korea as the strongest region doesn't need external interference, the old GSL was way better and they were self sustainable. I'd much prefer if GSL and OSL were run the way they always were and Blizzard can have their crap WCS pet project run on the side for the fans who prefer "personality" over skill.
On October 02 2013 21:04 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think it's to late though. The WCS sprayed their stink onto the market and made sc2 one of the Least watched eSports which is very sad. I love Starcraft and have been a very loyal customer for 15 years and grew up watching what proscene i could watch when I coudl watch it. I feel starcraft had the Hayday when IPL was doing a constant stream that was AWESOME but that has been shutdown and it felt like the scene was growing then and now it feels like its Dying very quickly.... I just wish someone was out there to bring it back to life and start making it grow again....... I don't want to Lose starcraft .....
Name one game besides dota and lol and at some time of the year fighting games that, on average, gets more. I could name you like 10 esports that get less viewers and are smaller than star 2. It's not dieing and you won't loose it, jesus people I feel like all of you joined esports with star 2 and are now butthurt that the game no longer has the number 1 spot.
I'm sorry Lorch you are right I'm being a litte dramatic i'm just used to being in the #1 spot with BW and being the competitive person that I am I want my game to be in the #1 SPOT! I just played LoL for like 6 months to give it a shot and I just find the game very easy and feel like anyone with a pulse could play it which is why I guess there is such a high viewership... I just wish people I talk to like younger ones coudl appreciate Starcraft for the game that it is so we can start seeing some more pro gamer's careers take off.....I'm probably not explaining that correctly but the thought is there
On October 02 2013 21:12 RouaF wrote: It's honestly time blizzard does like valve and riot do. Pump some serious cash into the competitive scene. They were too greedy on this one and this is their downfall ...
Cash won't help. The problem is the lack of viewers and thus lack of sponsors and thus teams/players retiring. -_- And why is there a lack of viewers? Because the game is shit.
Exactly. The problem is the game, not the lack of funds. As someone else already mentioned SC2 never experienced natural growth, but was living off of the success of BW. It was a bubble that was doomed to bust at some point, and that is what we are now witnessing.
SC2 is not going to experience growth before we've hit rock bottom. When that happens SC2 will hopefully be able to grow on it's own merits and not because it was forced by money injections. The prizepool per person is far higher for SC2 than it is for LoL, even though LoL has many times more viewers, and the earnings overall is also much higher for SC2 compared to LoL. Innovation earned more during WCS S1 than each of the guys from Azubu Frost (now CJ Entus Frost) made from getting 2nd place in LCS Season 2.
On October 02 2013 21:12 RouaF wrote: It's honestly time blizzard does like valve and riot do. Pump some serious cash into the competitive scene. They were too greedy on this one and this is their downfall ...
Cash won't help. The problem is the lack of viewers and thus lack of sponsors and thus teams/players retiring. -_- And why is there a lack of viewers? Because the game is shit.
Players are retiring because the scene got double the amount of players once kespa switched of course the scene can't support that instantly. Teams disbanding are more so the sponsors have problems within their own companies, the companies themselves are financially unstable not because of sponsoring teams, get your facts right.
So you disagree with player base and viewer base shrinking and instead it's random companys having financial problems by accident? Wow. What an argument.
The degree of ignorance in the sc2 scene is really impressive. The game is shrinking? It's always the others' fault! It's the players fault, it's WCS' fault, the sponsor companys' fault, it's LoL fault, it's the viewers' fault ... it can't be the game's fault, because Starcraft is *invincible*. -_-
I hope I don't get another warning for "criticing the game/community", since this thread is about people critizing WCS, you also need to have the right to defend WCS and criticize the game instead. -_- WCS is probably the one thing that keeps SC2 alive at the moment.
On October 02 2013 21:12 RouaF wrote: It's honestly time blizzard does like valve and riot do. Pump some serious cash into the competitive scene. They were too greedy on this one and this is their downfall ...
Cash won't help. The problem is the lack of viewers and thus lack of sponsors and thus teams/players retiring. -_- And why is there a lack of viewers? Because the game is shit.
Players are retiring because the scene got double the amount of players once kespa switched of course the scene can't support that instantly. Teams disbanding are more so the sponsors have problems within their own companies, the companies themselves are financially unstable not because of sponsoring teams, get your facts right.
or a lack of sponsor in general. for GSL, there was sony ericsson, pepsi, intel, LG, then we starting to have some smaller ones like hot6 and then monsieur J, mango6 and now ChoKun Shop.
On October 02 2013 21:41 Zenbrez wrote: Well.. I like WCS...
Me too. I watch it every day, on my ipad after work. Ransoms Korean teams losing a sponsor isn't really a huge deal for me.
With no sponsors, you won't have SC2 to watch. Players will simply move on and retire from SC2 and go on to get a real job. They can't play SC2 forever.
On October 02 2013 21:12 RouaF wrote: It's honestly time blizzard does like valve and riot do. Pump some serious cash into the competitive scene. They were too greedy on this one and this is their downfall ...
Cash won't help. The problem is the lack of viewers and thus lack of sponsors and thus teams/players retiring. -_- And why is there a lack of viewers? Because the game is shit.
Players are retiring because the scene got double the amount of players once kespa switched of course the scene can't support that instantly. Teams disbanding are more so the sponsors have problems within their own companies, the companies themselves are financially unstable not because of sponsoring teams, get your facts right.
So you disagree with player base and viewer base shrinking and instead it's random companys having financial problems by accident? Wow. What an argument.
The degree of ignorance in the sc2 scene is really impressive. The game is shrinking? It's always the others' fault! It's the players fault, it's WCS' fault, the sponsor companys' fault, it's LoL fault, it's the viewers' fault ... it can't be the game's fault, because Starcraft is *invincible*. -_-
I hope I don't get another warning for "criticing the game/community", since this thread is about people critizing WCS, you also need to have the right to defend WCS and criticize the game instead. -_- WCS is probably the one thing that keeps SC2 alive at the moment.
Don't put words in my mouth. Most of the stuff has been surrounding the korean scene(that's what I was referring too), NA/EU are doing fine. Calling the game shit isn't constructive criticism which is what is needed. Both STX and Woongjin have financial issues, Woongjins have been going on for about a year now.
Choya was never good anyway. Even in the early days of GSL, and GSTL where he talked to himself in the booth. Pretty weird guy but he does have a point. However, it's mostly due to the ever increasing number of professional SC II gamers which makes it hard for teams to continue. There just isn't enough funding for growing numbers of players. Not only that, if clans are to be successful, they must limit the number of players in their roster.
How do we start doing that? Separate the super top tier from the top and mediocre players. And how can this be achieved? Introducing "Hardcore" Ladder, similar to that of Diablo 3. But in this hardcore, the mechanics are very similar to BW. 12 unit control. make it difficult to macro but not as hard as broodwar. For instance, 4 building max unit control, etc etc.
This can seriously make the game more interesting and exponentially harder than it already is now. Of course there will have to be heavy rebalancing issues due to 12 unit control but that would be real interesting. like broodwar, but a bit more fast pace. But hey, a nerd can dream. Right?
On October 02 2013 21:41 Zenbrez wrote: Well.. I like WCS...
Me too. I watch it every day, on my ipad after work. Ransoms Korean teams losing a sponsor isn't really a huge deal for me.
With no sponsors, you won't have SC2 to watch. Players will simply move on and retire from SC2 and go on to get a real job. They can't play SC2 forever.
There seem to be plenty of teams doing fine. EG, Axiom, and a few Korean teams like MVP are doing just fine. Just because one Korean team loses a sponsor and their 19-20 year old Captain decides to blame WCS does not mean the sky is falling.
The problem is that there is no other tournament beside de WCS ansmore. This might not be that big of a deal for NA/EU, but the insane amount of professional players in Korea is just too much for one tournament. There are only 4 WCS Seasons every year, beside that... The pro gamers can't win any money.
On October 02 2013 21:49 NovemberstOrm wrote: Don't put words in my mouth.
Well then your whole post is kinda pointless.
There may be random company financial problems, yes, but there have been in the past aswell. The financial crisis is in 2013 even weaker than in 2010, 2011 and 2012. Yes, there were like 100 Kespa players shifting to SC2, but compared to the total number of players playing in championships and tourneys (I'd say multiple 1000s) that's also a pretty low number. And like half of the 100 have retired or been released up to now. So both things might be an influence, yes, but they tend to be a small factor in a whole game's overall developement, compared to the huge factor *player base and viewers decrease*.
That's the same thing with WCS. Yes, WCS is not perfect at that time *but* it's flaws are also a rather minor factor to the overall developement of SC2. The decrease in player base is much more severe factor.
People should stop crying out "this is wrong, SC2 dedd" and "that is wrong, SC2 dedd" and should start seeing SC2's developement dependant to a large number of factors, that all have different weights. And in my opinion a shrinking player base is the most severe factor for a game's overall developement. Anyone can really argue this?
I don't think anyone is mad about the tournaments and the sheer existence of WCS because I myself like watching it but its the fact of the non-compete that has limited the tournaments and made it exclusive and pretty much gave everyone else the middle finger.... lol
Still haven't seen even one Korean pro say good thing about WCS system. Even though WCS system may not be the main problem, it's definitely not a good system to help the scene.
Blizzard at this point I don't think is going to listen.... There is so many people pulling in different directions and honestly I think if blizzard wants to have complete control over tournaments to make sure there is notable people attending their tournaments then they could control that but making a set of smaller tournaments and still have them not around the same time as Blizzcon but have multiple tournaments running at the same time the WCS seasons are running.... I don't know just a thought.. if they want to have exclusive give the community more options even if it is smaller pools....
On October 02 2013 19:35 Dodgin wrote: glad to see we're adopting the reddit method of sensationalized thread titles.
Isn't that the title on TIG? I see the letters WCS at least! Seems reasonable to use the same.
According to Daum and Naver 망치다 means "destroy" (망쳤다, which is used in the TIG title, is in present tense). So the title on TIG becomes like "Lee Hyung Seop: Blizzard WCS is destroying SC2". (스타2 means "Star2").
EDIT: my bad, it's actually past tense. "Lee Hyeong Sep: Blizzard WCS destroyed SC2".
start looking into other scenes boys.. see their profit model and tournament structure. blizzard really fucked up.
ive always been a proponent of switching whoever is on the lead of sc2. unless some critical changes are made, these dudes will make money off of bleeding players.
The teams need a way to generate revenue to sustain their costs. I'm pretty new to the scene so I have a question. Do they have tournaments where teams or players buy in?Similar to a poker tournament? I feel like this type of thing..if you could couple it with getting a sponsor to match what the teams buy in and host a huge event that had other types of entertainment as well..( bands / bars/ cards..etc) would draw huge crowds...even a modest cover to people to add in to the revenue. I know for damn sure that where I'm from even people not into the scene would be into it. This also would in entice venture capitalists to start competitive bidding on the star players ( see New York Yankees). Eventually you would create a few powerhouse teams to drive the competition and limits of the game up.. I think one of the key things about why the events aren't more popular is because really the only focus of the events are the games..not as much stuff for maybe the girlfriend or the kids to do.. you'd also have less inflation of players as the teams would only be competitive by paying top dollar for the best talent..and you'd put more pressure and acccointability on the players to improve. I'm all for blizz and sponsors throwing out as much money as they can but at the end of the day it has to become a self sustaining industry and that will only happen by having as many positive margin (profit turning) events as possible. This cant happen by advertising funding alone (viewership). Major league baseball teams go out of businesses years ago if they dont fill seats with fans.. we need to figure out how to get fans into the events..clearly good solid games isn't going to be enough for now..just think about poker..as ridiculously boring as it is to watch (even for myself who is an avid participant) people get excited about the premise of someone winning a fortune. I honestly think the events that go down with 2500 dollar prize pools and 30 people in the "stands" do more harm than good for the scene..just observing comments from my own friends who are clueless...you hear things like I thought this was a sport you were telling me...looks like an after school club..etc.. I'm such a huge supporter of RTS. I love it and it is my passion. I want so badly for it to succeed to the level of SC1 and well beyond. For those BW supporters I will say this..I never played BW but I heard of its greatness.. you have to ask yourself though..do you love RTS?? If you do you have to accept that BW isn't coming back and SC2 is the only show in town. It needs your support more than ever..your ideas your positive input and your passion. Pls less SC2 flaming and more SC2 ideas..RTS has the most intelligent player base.. I know it can succeed with the right passion and ideas behind it!
On October 02 2013 22:28 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote: start looking into other scenes boys.. see their profit model and tournament structure. blizzard really fucked up.
ive always been a proponent of switching whoever is on the lead of sc2. unless some critical changes are made, these dudes will make money off of bleeding players.
Other scenes? Which one of the big 3 scenes? LoL, DotA2 or... wait, Starcraft 2? GASP. There are no "other scenes" as viable as SC2, with the exception of LoL. For koreans, DotA2 is almost non-existent.
Quit this fucking negativity thing already. YOU are the problem. YOU are making SC2 look dead. Go watch a tournament, play, do a LR thread. Go donate for GameHeart, which is actually AWESOME.
SC2 is not dead by a long shot, but if people keep this attitude they will definitely kill it.
On October 02 2013 22:31 bo1b wrote: Can always count on a plansix comment to go against the grain and reassure us that blizzard is doing an amazing job.
Get with the mob justice, it's clearly the only way.
Nah, WCS needs work. It has serious flaws and I have stated several time that I think less of it should be online. Blizzard is still pretty rudderless whenever it comes how to manage a league.
But that isn't the problem in Korea. The OGN and Gom conflict, plus the Kespa issues are mor local and not something Blizzard had direct control over. The blood letting in that scene is sad, but it has way to many players and teams.
On October 02 2013 21:33 Khai wrote: I've tried giving it a chance but WCS is just rubbish. Coming towards the end of the 3rd season we're seeing a lot of mediocore Korean players in AM and EU getting the best chance of qualifying for the year end finals. Blizzard's attempt to get the foreigners those spots have failed miserably.
I think this is often the result of affirmative action and I really can't blame Blizzard for trying because the community demands foreigners... Rofl, this is so ironically sad for me as a fan of SC2, not only will many of the most skilled players not get a fair chance of qualifying for Blizzcon simply because they play in KR, the most skilled and competitive region, they are also suffering financially and the game's popularity is falling.
Sigh, I guess this is how it all goes down. Blizzard needs to reconsider the WCS system, it's simply not working. Korea as the strongest region doesn't need external interference, the old GSL was way better and they were self sustainable. I'd much prefer if GSL and OSL were run the way they always were and Blizzard can have their crap WCS pet project run on the side for the fans who prefer "personality" over skill.
The GSL was never "self-sustainable." Blizzard was always putting up a significant portion of the prize pool.
As for the problem of WCS, I think Blizzard has done a poor job, but it is important to remember that they're being pulled at from two directions. On one hand, you have much of the community and European/NA pros wanting region lock, which would put the Korean scene in even worse shape, because there would be even less money available for Koreans to win.
On October 02 2013 20:48 JustPassingBy wrote: Dunno why people are only complaining about WCS, WCS EU is totally awesome. I have never seen so many up and coming players than right now! :D
I think Choya is mainly talking about WCS KR, which pretty much took over everything. It's only WCS now for them, and thats just bad. I really hope for the next year WCS goes a different path!
But as far as I know nothing is hindering OGN to make their own league while GSL handles WCS, or is there? All they need to do is some bit of scheduling magic so they don't broadcast at the same time. Same goes vice versa.
edit: take a look at DH, for example, or at IEM, though latter is also done by ESL.
People overinvested in SC2 because there was a small chance it would become huge. If a game took off around the world the same way BW did in Korea we would have a multibillion dollar business and being there first would be a nice advantage.
So they took a risk for a small chance of a huge paycheck. That didn't happen. SC2 isn't the esport that's going to go mainstream around the world. So the people who were betting on that are starting to deinvest and look for the next big thing.
A few hundred thousand fans worldwide cannot support 200 professional players. That doesn't work in any sport. It's not so much that SC2 is dying rather than the infrastructure was based around a much larger fanbase. Now that the fanbase has become smaller (in Korea compared to BW) or didn't increase as much as some people hoped in the rest of the world the team infrastructure has to follow suit.
demand determines supply. too many teams for too little demand? sponsors will pull out, teams will die. end of story. now why is demand declining? that's the real question here. but if someone actually belives it's all WCS/ Blizzards fault he's extremely naive and/or has no clue about economics...
On October 02 2013 22:14 whirlpool wrote: sc2 hots needs to die immediately, so blizzard can pick up the pieces, learn from it to build lotv.
This is not exactly they way i would have put it, but in the long run i definitely think that SC2 would benefit from a complete overhaul.
Team loses it's only sponsor, so Blizzard should overhaul the game play of SC2? I am sure the sponsor didn't give a shit about units clumping.
SC2 does not need an overhaul because a few teams are losing sponsors. SC2 needs an overhaul because there is several inherent flaws in the game that should have been dealt with long ago. And it just so happens that we are currently going through a rough time to say the least, which makes it a perfect time to rethink the game.
It is possible that the sponsors didn't give a shit about units clumping, but they sure as hell give a shit about viewer numbers in free fall.
On October 02 2013 20:48 JustPassingBy wrote: Dunno why people are only complaining about WCS, WCS EU is totally awesome. I have never seen so many up and coming players than right now! :D
I think Choya is mainly talking about WCS KR, which pretty much took over everything. It's only WCS now for them, and thats just bad. I really hope for the next year WCS goes a different path!
But as far as I know nothing is hindering OGN to make their own league while GSL handles WCS, or is there? All they need to do is some bit of scheduling magic so they don't broadcast at the same time. Same goes vice versa.
Yes there is. Money. Blizzard always supported GSL, for example. You need a ton of money to start off something like this on your own!
I must be a necrophiliac as I am getting more out of this "dead" game then ever did when it was "alive". I have followed sc2 since GSL season 2 and watched all the major events since, still WCS has been the best thing to happen for me as a viewer in all this time. Used to be that GSL was pretty much the only storyline we had and now it's a global one with content almost everyday furthering that storyline and I have never been as excited for an esports event as am Blizzcon.
Not trying to argue it's perfect or that it has been handled in the best possible way but I just don't think it compares to all that WCS has given me as a viewer, and if I the viewer am happy shouldn't that translate as a good thing for everyone?
On October 02 2013 20:48 JustPassingBy wrote: Dunno why people are only complaining about WCS, WCS EU is totally awesome. I have never seen so many up and coming players than right now! :D
I think Choya is mainly talking about WCS KR, which pretty much took over everything. It's only WCS now for them, and thats just bad. I really hope for the next year WCS goes a different path!
But as far as I know nothing is hindering OGN to make their own league while GSL handles WCS, or is there? All they need to do is some bit of scheduling magic so they don't broadcast at the same time. Same goes vice versa.
Yes there is. Money. Blizzard always supported GSL, for example. You need a ton of money to start off something like this on your own!
You say "start off", as if OGN never did "something like this" before... I have many fond memories of past OSLs that say otherwise. DH and IEM (though that is also organized by ESL), show how tournaments can coexists with WCS, I don't get it why the Korean scene does not manage something like that
On October 02 2013 22:48 hypercube wrote: People overinvested in SC2 because there was a small chance it would become huge. If a game took off around the world the same way BW did in Korea we would have a multibillion dollar business and being there first would be a nice advantage.
So they took a risk for a small chance of a huge paycheck. That didn't happen. SC2 isn't the esport that's going to go mainstream around the world. So the people who were betting on that are starting to deinvest and look for the next big thing.
A few hundred thousand fans worldwide cannot support 200 professional players. That doesn't work in any sport. It's not so much that SC2 is dying rather than the infrastructure was based around a much larger fanbase. Now that the fanbase has become smaller (in Korea compared to BW) or didn't increase as much as some people hoped in the rest of the world the team infrastructure has to follow suit.
This nails it, and is a much more realistic perspective than throwing out whatever current meme-of-the-day is. Also consider that the player base in Korea doubled (Kespa + eSF) for a game where the fan base was decreasing at the same time. The numbers simply do not add up, and something has to give.
On October 02 2013 23:00 KaiserJohan wrote: I miss watching MLGs with their american/european scene players WCS EU and Dreamhack is still pretty good, but that's it for me.
Thats just nostalgia for you. In the end in the MLGs there were IdrA, Huk and maybe another one in the top 16. But other than that it was koreans and koreans only. In WCS EU for example I see a lot of different players and imho thats a great thing.
WCS EU has been the best thing happening to us in EU next to Dreamhack, which is still unbeaten imho.
On October 02 2013 22:49 looken wrote: demand determines supply. too many teams for too little demand? sponsors will pull out, teams will die. end of story. now why is demand declining? that's the real question here. but if someone actually belives it's all WCS/ Blizzards fault he's extremely naive and/or has no clue about economics...
Oh my, Economics! What's that, something to do with money, right? You must be really smart to understand such kind of things, I bet your GPA is 4.0
On October 02 2013 22:28 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote: start looking into other scenes boys.. see their profit model and tournament structure. blizzard really fucked up.
ive always been a proponent of switching whoever is on the lead of sc2. unless some critical changes are made, these dudes will make money off of bleeding players.
Been trying different games for a while. Had a little retro phase with emulators and GTA kept me busy. Recently been playing Rome 2 total war, they have a pretty big modding community that does really neat things. I found that I can't stand any type of MOBA and FPS.
I continue to watch streams once in a while, but I don't have a GOM pass anymore. I still play somewhat regularly, but I'm a league lower and usually have lots of bonus pool stacked. I'll probably come back after the NFL season ends. See you in February.
On October 02 2013 20:48 JustPassingBy wrote: Dunno why people are only complaining about WCS, WCS EU is totally awesome. I have never seen so many up and coming players than right now! :D
I think Choya is mainly talking about WCS KR, which pretty much took over everything. It's only WCS now for them, and thats just bad. I really hope for the next year WCS goes a different path!
But as far as I know nothing is hindering OGN to make their own league while GSL handles WCS, or is there? All they need to do is some bit of scheduling magic so they don't broadcast at the same time. Same goes vice versa.
Yes there is. Money. Blizzard always supported GSL, for example. You need a ton of money to start off something like this on your own!
You say "start off", as if OGN never did "something like this" before... I have many fond memories of past OSLs that say otherwise. DH and IEM (though that is also organized by ESL), show how tournaments can coexists with WCS, I don't get it why the Korean scene does not manage something like that
Because DH and IEM are hosted in different cities once per year. And they aren't just for SC2, DH is a big LAN, gaming festival and IEM piggybacks on a lot of computer conventions and expos.
The Korean market is probably not big enough to make weekend tournaments like DH/IEM economically feasible.
On October 02 2013 22:14 whirlpool wrote: sc2 hots needs to die immediately, so blizzard can pick up the pieces, learn from it to build lotv.
This is not exactly they way i would have put it, but in the long run i definitely think that SC2 would benefit from a complete overhaul.
Team loses it's only sponsor, so Blizzard should overhaul the game play of SC2? I am sure the sponsor didn't give a shit about units clumping.
SC2 does not need an overhaul because a few teams are losing sponsors. SC2 needs an overhaul because there is several inherent flaws in the game that should have been dealt with long ago. And it just so happens that we are currently going through a rough time to say the least, which makes it a perfect time to rethink the game.
It is possible that the sponsors didn't give a shit about units clumping, but they sure as hell give a shit about viewer numbers in free fall.
I love how people cite "fundamental flaws" with the gameplay in every threat that has any bad news related to SC2. Yet they all just parrot the vague points that people have been vaguely quoting for years. It has little to do with the topic, but let's bring it up anyways because it sounds good.
I mean he does have a point. GSL and OSL used to be distinct tournaments, and I think a lot of us thought WCS would be separate. Instead, WCS took over the tournaments and lowered the prize pool for some unknown reason. Really a shame.
On October 02 2013 20:48 JustPassingBy wrote: Dunno why people are only complaining about WCS, WCS EU is totally awesome. I have never seen so many up and coming players than right now! :D
I think Choya is mainly talking about WCS KR, which pretty much took over everything. It's only WCS now for them, and thats just bad. I really hope for the next year WCS goes a different path!
But as far as I know nothing is hindering OGN to make their own league while GSL handles WCS, or is there? All they need to do is some bit of scheduling magic so they don't broadcast at the same time. Same goes vice versa.
Yes there is. Money. Blizzard always supported GSL, for example. You need a ton of money to start off something like this on your own!
You say "start off", as if OGN never did "something like this" before... I have many fond memories of past OSLs that say otherwise. DH and IEM (though that is also organized by ESL), show how tournaments can coexists with WCS, I don't get it why the Korean scene does not manage something like that
Back then OGN and MBC had A TON of huge sponsors. There was ALWAYS a major company behind that.
And even then MBC had to close sooner or later, so I don't think you can compare "back then" with "now". Things changed, and not always for the better.
Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.
I think region lock would be good because then it would not only cut costs for Korean teams seeing how it would cut down on expenses for sponsors in flights and hotels but also encourage local tournaments as opposed to goign to other regions... which some of the korean pros do this because they have a higher chance at winning and making money at other tournaments where if you make more tournaments in the area and sponsors save massive amounts of money on hotel stay flihgts etc... they might even be able to sponsor some of these events for pros to compete in for their respective areas....
On October 02 2013 23:06 Bagi wrote: Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.
Because blaming your own shortcomings (the team poor long-term management) or blaming superiors (OGN, GOM or KeSPA) isn't accepted.
On October 02 2013 23:06 Bagi wrote: Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.
I think there is some truth to that. I don't think all the teams are used to finding sponsors and blame WCS, instead of looking to how their team is run. At the end of the day, a lot of theses Korean teams need to find a way I support themselves and some of them might fail.
On October 02 2013 23:06 Bagi wrote: Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.
Probably because without Blizzard interfering they managed to make BW bigger than SC2 never was. And they had a working system that really could support progamers.
On October 02 2013 22:14 whirlpool wrote: sc2 hots needs to die immediately, so blizzard can pick up the pieces, learn from it to build lotv.
This is not exactly they way i would have put it, but in the long run i definitely think that SC2 would benefit from a complete overhaul.
Team loses it's only sponsor, so Blizzard should overhaul the game play of SC2? I am sure the sponsor didn't give a shit about units clumping.
SC2 does not need an overhaul because a few teams are losing sponsors. SC2 needs an overhaul because there is several inherent flaws in the game that should have been dealt with long ago. And it just so happens that we are currently going through a rough time to say the least, which makes it a perfect time to rethink the game.
It is possible that the sponsors didn't give a shit about units clumping, but they sure as hell give a shit about viewer numbers in free fall.
I agree with this. Sc2 has not been fun to play for years. Hots only made it more irritating to play, not less
On October 02 2013 23:06 Bagi wrote: Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.
maybe blizz should not have shut down BW and gave half of the cash to kespa to continue the BW leagues...just a thought. you can lead a horse to water, but...
On October 02 2013 23:06 Bagi wrote: Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.
Probably because without Blizzard interfering they managed to make BW bigger than SC2 never was. And they had a working system that really could support progamers.
With government support, huge sponsorships and zero competition from other games. It's easy to be the top dog when your the only one in town.
On October 02 2013 23:09 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think region lock would be good because then it would not only cut costs for Korean teams seeing how it would cut down on expenses for sponsors in flights and hotels but also encourage local tournaments as opposed to goign to other regions... which some of the korean pros do this because they have a higher chance at winning and making money at other tournaments where if you make more tournaments in the area and sponsors save massive amounts of money on hotel stay flihgts etc... they might even be able to sponsor some of these events for pros to compete in for their respective areas....
I am not sure how region lock makes more local tournaments. Players are joining foreign teams because they want to go to foreign events. And the lack of local events is one of the major reasons. The local demand is just not big enough for Korean sponsors to sponsor a tournament.
Zezamer makes a very good point.... If it ain't broke don't fix it? Instead they threw a wrench into the gears and shutdown their system creating what they thought would be a better system in the end crushed a lot of the scene
I think Blizzard should go back to leaving the e-sport competitions, leagues and other events in the hands of specialized professionals. The way it was for BW and WC3.
The BW example is obvious (and a little special), as the game was only popular in South Korea. KeSPA took care of mostly everything and Blizzard was completely left out. Surprisingly, the game thrived and then some.
WC3 is a better example. Although it didn't reach the high peaks of professionalism of BW (mostly because South Korea was ahead of its time in terms of e-sports, and WC3 didn't have any success there as an e-sport game), WC3 had a very successful e-sport scene for most of its life (first WCG in 2003, and everything steadily increased from here on out as the e-sport scene developed and gained in experience and maturity, until it died when SC2 was released, although WC3 will be at WCG 2013) and the only tournaments that were organized by Blizzard were annual events: BlizzCon and BNet Finals. Everything else was organized by other associations, e.g ESL & Intel for IEM Masters, the French association of e-sports for ESWC, ESL again for WC3L and the finals, Zotac for the cups, and so on. Hell, Zotac on WC3 is still alive and kicking to this day, so they're obviously doing something right.
And truth be told, it is rather obvious by now that Blizzard did not create the WCS in order to better the e-sport scene, but out of greed. They wanted control and they wanted to rake in on all the e-sport events, and they did. Possibly at the cost of SC2's e-sport life, as the game is slowly choking for it. Blizzard just doesn't know what's best as far as e-sport is concerned, and they are merely looking at it as yet another cash cow. As a result, a lot of specialized organizations have stopped featuring SC2 in their tournaments and events and Blizzard is holding a monopoly of the e-sport scene, effectively killing the variety and suffocating it. I think Blizzard just completely mishandled that aspect of their game. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too, so on top of having to buy the game and its expansions, no other organization can turn a profit from SC2 and only Blizzard is left as a viable candidate for hosting long lasting competitions.
Blizzard should simply keep on taking care of the game and nothing else, worry about marketing, advertising, balance and exposure and leave the competitions up to the real organizations. That way, other people could turn a profit on SC2 and the scene would be flourishing instead of shriveling. They could charge a fee for whoever wants to use SC2 as a game for their competitions (which I'm pretty sure they do anyway, they must collect rights on any competition that uses SC2) and leave it at that.
It sounds cliché, but Blizzard's stance on.. well, everything, changed after they were bought out by Activision. I wouldn't say all of the bad decisions are made by higher ups from that notoriously greedy company, as the Blizzard reps themselves have made a flew blunders, but I'm willing to bet there is some legitimate blame to be laid on Activision. Oh well, that's how the world works and everything. We'll probably never see the old Blizzard, the one with the people who knew what they could and couldn't do and who didn't compromise the quality or the management of their game for the sake of profit (not deluding myself here, Blizzard naturally always cared about profit, as any company should, but they certainly used to handle things better and just overall looked a lot less greedy in everything they did).
By the way, I would love to hear the actual cost of hosting a SC2 tournament. As in, hear from someone who used to manage tournaments and such about what exactly an organization has to pay in order to use SC2, and how much money is versed to Blizzard simply for using their game.
On October 02 2013 23:09 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think region lock would be good because then it would not only cut costs for Korean teams seeing how it would cut down on expenses for sponsors in flights and hotels but also encourage local tournaments as opposed to goign to other regions... which some of the korean pros do this because they have a higher chance at winning and making money at other tournaments where if you make more tournaments in the area and sponsors save massive amounts of money on hotel stay flihgts etc... they might even be able to sponsor some of these events for pros to compete in for their respective areas....
I am not sure how region lock makes more local tournaments. Players are joining foreign teams because they want to go to foreign events. And the lack of local events is one of the major reasons. The local demand is just not big enough for Korean sponsors to sponsor a tournament.
I see your point but with that reasoning then the scene is already Dead and there are no hopes of revival i just like to see the glass half full not half empty i guess.....
On October 02 2013 19:46 Fionn wrote: 2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Gotta disagree with this one. The story to me looks fine. It's "OMG Maru did it!" --> "Oh no, Maru goes down!" --> "OMG Maru is doing it again! Will he go all the way this time?!?!?!?"
Of course a week or two between the finals and grand slam would be a welcome change, and hopefully Blizz does that next year. But timing issues aside, by your argument, any time a champ loses in the Ro32, we should blame Code S??
The grand slams to me are the best part of the new WCS because they provide a regular (i.e. more than once per year, ala 2012 WCS) place for the very top foreigners to prove themselves, and they provide a possible additional revenge story followup to the preceding season (i.e. what will happen two players that played in their regional season meet up again?) All this in addition to just being an incredibly stacked tournament.
There need to be smaller tournament like MLG, IEM, DH like Korea. It is too expensive for Korean to fly to Europe or NA to participate in these tournaments.
On October 02 2013 23:18 Spaylz wrote: I think Blizzard should go back to leaving the e-sport competitions, leagues and other events in the hand of specialized professionals. The way it was for BW and WC3.
There is no way Blizzard is going to leave the sc2 scene. The reason they wanted sc2 is to get a piece of the revenue from the tournaments which they didn't have in BW.
So much vitriol in this thread. I don't think I've seen one person lay out the REASONS for disliking WCS. I also have not seen solutions being offered. This is just like a giant reverse circle-jerk where everyone says the same thing to no end.
What exactly is SO bad about WCS, and how could we actually make it better? People act like WCS caused everything here but I could see the scene being more dire than ever had WCS never existed, though I also have been wrong many times.
The problem is WCS choked out other tournaments and is trying to exclusively control the market on this game instead of letting the scene grow as it was they came in and changed the system
At this point they would probably need to start hosting smaller tournaments that would be lower budget tournaments to start trying to grow the scene again in Korea to start with..... With planting these little seeds and some watering maybe we would see a turn around .... atleast this would be worth a shot.... thats my opinion
On October 02 2013 19:46 Fionn wrote: The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts.
This I 100% agree with. Solve the region locking too and I might start watching WCS again and not just read about it in a news bulletin.
For those of you who never understands what a storyline or "narrative" is, this is it. To take an example from Dota2 lately, the TI3, the two top teams of that tournament had never met in a professional Dota2 game before the finals. That allowed both to go into the finals undefeated (except a small hickup on alliance) and with their preformances in the group stages built all the hype for the finals that made for the best esports final I have seen thus far. This all was not intentionally (by the organizers) done in TI3, but it made for one hell of an event. Whomever finds a good way to shelter champions and build a storyline before clashes will be the winner in the esports competition between gaming companies and in turn might turn esports into a real sport.
On October 02 2013 23:25 thurst0n wrote: So much vitriol in this thread. I don't think I've seen one person lay out the REASONS for disliking WCS. I also have not seen solutions being offered. This is just like a giant reverse circle-jerk where everyone says the same thing to no end.
What exactly is SO bad about WCS, and how could we actually make it better? People act like WCS caused everything here but I could see the scene being more dire than ever had WCS never existed, though I also have been wrong many times.
Did you even read the thread. lol. There has been reasons and solutions offered by people from the community ever since the start of the WCS (not only from this thread).
On October 02 2013 22:14 whirlpool wrote: sc2 hots needs to die immediately, so blizzard can pick up the pieces, learn from it to build lotv.
This is not exactly they way i would have put it, but in the long run i definitely think that SC2 would benefit from a complete overhaul.
Team loses it's only sponsor, so Blizzard should overhaul the game play of SC2? I am sure the sponsor didn't give a shit about units clumping.
SC2 does not need an overhaul because a few teams are losing sponsors. SC2 needs an overhaul because there is several inherent flaws in the game that should have been dealt with long ago. And it just so happens that we are currently going through a rough time to say the least, which makes it a perfect time to rethink the game.
It is possible that the sponsors didn't give a shit about units clumping, but they sure as hell give a shit about viewer numbers in free fall.
I love how people cite "fundamental flaws" with the gameplay in every threat that has any bad news related to SC2. Yet they all just parrot the vague points that people have been vaguely quoting for years. It has little to do with the topic, but let's bring it up anyways because it sounds good.
Maybe the reason that it is brought up all the time is because it is bad for the game? These inherent flaws are most apparant for Protoss, where Forcefields, Warp-ins and Colossi has made the race stale as fuck. There is little to no difference between TvP now compared to when the game was released.
On October 02 2013 23:23 Osiccor wrote: There need to be smaller tournament like MLG, IEM, DH like Korea. It is too expensive for Korean to fly to Europe or NA to participate in these tournaments.
On October 02 2013 23:18 Spaylz wrote: I think Blizzard should go back to leaving the e-sport competitions, leagues and other events in the hand of specialized professionals. The way it was for BW and WC3.
There is no way Blizzard is going to leave the sc2 scene. The reason they wanted sc2 is to get a piece of the revenue from the tournaments which they didn't have in BW.
Well, there are ways. In my previous post I talk about how Blizzard could take a fee for every tournament using SC2 as a game, which as I said I'm pretty sure they already do. Perhaps they could increase the fee, I don't know. The problem is Blizzard is never going to go for that, because even though it would give a little breathing room to the SC2 scene and it would probably help a ton in the growth department, they would lose out on some short term money.
At this rate, with every other tournament and event no longer supporting SC2, WCS will be the only thing left and sooner or later the scene will completely choke. Blizzard will have made some immediate profit, but they will have lost more exposure and possibly more money in the long run. BW lasted for over a decade, and given its current state, SC2 doesn't look like it's going to beat that.
On the bright side, if SC2 does die and all Koreans go back to BW while foreigners move on to other games, it could bring Blizzard to make WC4 and try to salvage their mistakes! Absolute wishful thinking, I know. ;<
On October 02 2013 20:48 JustPassingBy wrote: Dunno why people are only complaining about WCS, WCS EU is totally awesome. I have never seen so many up and coming players than right now! :D
I think Choya is mainly talking about WCS KR, which pretty much took over everything. It's only WCS now for them, and thats just bad. I really hope for the next year WCS goes a different path!
But as far as I know nothing is hindering OGN to make their own league while GSL handles WCS, or is there? All they need to do is some bit of scheduling magic so they don't broadcast at the same time. Same goes vice versa.
Yes there is. Money. Blizzard always supported GSL, for example. You need a ton of money to start off something like this on your own!
You say "start off", as if OGN never did "something like this" before... I have many fond memories of past OSLs that say otherwise. DH and IEM (though that is also organized by ESL), show how tournaments can coexists with WCS, I don't get it why the Korean scene does not manage something like that
Back then OGN and MBC had A TON of huge sponsors. There was ALWAYS a major company behind that.
And even then MBC had to close sooner or later, so I don't think you can compare "back then" with "now". Things changed, and not always for the better.
I see your point and maybe you are right. But how is it the fault of the WCS system that Choya criticizes?
On October 02 2013 20:48 JustPassingBy wrote: Dunno why people are only complaining about WCS, WCS EU is totally awesome. I have never seen so many up and coming players than right now! :D
I think Choya is mainly talking about WCS KR, which pretty much took over everything. It's only WCS now for them, and thats just bad. I really hope for the next year WCS goes a different path!
But as far as I know nothing is hindering OGN to make their own league while GSL handles WCS, or is there? All they need to do is some bit of scheduling magic so they don't broadcast at the same time. Same goes vice versa.
Yes there is. Money. Blizzard always supported GSL, for example. You need a ton of money to start off something like this on your own!
You say "start off", as if OGN never did "something like this" before... I have many fond memories of past OSLs that say otherwise. DH and IEM (though that is also organized by ESL), show how tournaments can coexists with WCS, I don't get it why the Korean scene does not manage something like that
Back then OGN and MBC had A TON of huge sponsors. There was ALWAYS a major company behind that.
And even then MBC had to close sooner or later, so I don't think you can compare "back then" with "now". Things changed, and not always for the better.
On October 02 2013 19:39 Caladan wrote: In my opinion, thats BS. SC2 gameplay flaws ruined SC2. The game ruined the game. Also Blizzard's price politics ruined SC2 in Asia from the start. It was 60+40 bucks (SC2+HotS) vs free (LoL). That's a joke.
Before WCS it was all just about to break together, Blizzard just prolonged SC2's life with money (WCS). It does not matter if zero viewers watch GSL or if zero viewers watch WCS GSL.
I totally agree with you
While I largely agree that things like smaller Korean audiences are completely the fault of Starcraft 2's design and inaccessibility compared to League, the fact that Korea went from having OGN and GSL running separate tournaments to having only 3 events a year between the two has hurt Korean team sponsor's from receiving the exposure they expected when they first signed on. GOM alone ran at least 5 major tournaments a year in WoL; with WCS they will have 2 or 3 depending on how lucky they get with the division of WCS events with OGN
I dont think this should come as a surprise to anyone. Everytime a "sport" or e-sport is used as a means to make money, it crumbles. There is a very simple reason for this: greed and the maximum capability of the market.
The amount of people that can get rich based on a single game is rather limited, but everyone wants a piece of the pie, to a point when this piece is so small, that there is no reason to wait in line for it.
Broodwar had two things sc2 didnt: 1.- It was a highly more taxing game so a great player was a great player always, and grand finals were also always insane. 2.- It was mostly a hobby and not a business outside of korea. This meant that there was one group (Kespa) holding all the cards, so there was always enought pie for as many people as they allowed in.
Blizzard has been critisized enought for their actions since they were bougth/joined with activision, so i dont think I even need to get into this matter, but I do think they almost compleatly destroyed their reputation with SC2/D3 (compared to broodwar/WoW/D2), but especially with their actions. I still remmber the first press conference where blizzard announced that sc2 was coming in 3 parts, and the huge negative feedback it recived.
They countered this by saying that the games were 3-4 times bigger than the original Starcraft, and by saying that this was limited to the campaign, and that you did not have to buy the expansions to play online with the new units. Well, now its obvious they "changed" their mind.
This could be perfectly seen as false advertising, and I could ask for my money back for sc2 WoL due to this, but id rather stop buying their games (as i Stoped with D3).
Companies are starting to behave like politicians, thingking they can do anything, but they are forgeting we dont actually "have to buy" their products, where as taxes we sort of have to.
Here is something about it, I suggest you watch it and decide how much truth is in this presentation in relation to the final game.
On October 02 2013 20:48 JustPassingBy wrote: Dunno why people are only complaining about WCS, WCS EU is totally awesome. I have never seen so many up and coming players than right now! :D
I think Choya is mainly talking about WCS KR, which pretty much took over everything. It's only WCS now for them, and thats just bad. I really hope for the next year WCS goes a different path!
But as far as I know nothing is hindering OGN to make their own league while GSL handles WCS, or is there? All they need to do is some bit of scheduling magic so they don't broadcast at the same time. Same goes vice versa.
edit: take a look at DH, for example, or at IEM, though latter is also done by ESL.
That's not even the issue. The issue is that WCS KR has top priority compared to all other tournaments. You can't run GSL and OSL at the same time because Blizzard doesn't allow it.
On October 02 2013 20:48 JustPassingBy wrote: Dunno why people are only complaining about WCS, WCS EU is totally awesome. I have never seen so many up and coming players than right now! :D
I think Choya is mainly talking about WCS KR, which pretty much took over everything. It's only WCS now for them, and thats just bad. I really hope for the next year WCS goes a different path!
But as far as I know nothing is hindering OGN to make their own league while GSL handles WCS, or is there? All they need to do is some bit of scheduling magic so they don't broadcast at the same time. Same goes vice versa.
edit: take a look at DH, for example, or at IEM, though latter is also done by ESL.
That's not even the issue. The issue is that WCS KR has top priority compared to all other tournaments. You can't run GSL and OSL at the same time because Blizzard doesn't allow it.
As I said, scheduling magic. I am sure that GSL/OGN would have tried to accommodate the other party, considering that both parties have taken turns running the WCS KR.
IF Blizzard wants to grow esports, the first they need is to put starcraft 2 FREE TO PLAY, the game is too EXPENSIVE to peoples try out, the starter edition is not enough... and we all know that.
BUT, the time capitalizing with this game still not over yet, legacy of the void is there for we all buy this shit full of promises and hopes...
i think they gonna announce the new wcs system in the blizzcon, THEY NEED TO if they want the korean teams to survive until next year
and the best thing who can happen to korea right now is jaedong win the fucking blizzcon, maybe this energyze things in the east
On October 02 2013 23:06 Bagi wrote: Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.
Probably because without Blizzard interfering they managed to make BW bigger than SC2 never was. And they had a working system that really could support progamers.
With government support, huge sponsorships and zero competition from other games. It's easy to be the top dog when your the only one in town.
yeah because it's easy to go get government support and huge sponsorships for A VIDEO GAME. Like it was 10 years before. There was competition btw, there was wc3, there were shooters etc.
On October 02 2013 23:50 teddyoojo wrote: i dont get it either, korea has exactly the same they had earlier.
Not really, Korea had 5 GSLs+ an OSL last year (only going with 2012 numbers) total of 6 premier leagues.
This year we had 1 GSL + 3 WCS seasons (granted next year will be 4 seasons).
The WCS pricepool more than halfed the first price from GSLs/OSL, but gave the addiotinal chance to grab 40k at the season finals. WCS scrapped 2 tournaments from Korea so it could fit into the "seasons", less player varience (because less players drop out/come in due to less tournaments). And thats the main thing I would change for Korea next year to a) give Korean progamers an incentive to play in Korea and b) give the korean players better chances to sustain themselves.
Give WCS KR 6 seasons (4 GSL, 2 OSL, 5 GSL-1OSL whatever you want) with a higher pricepool than this years WCS and the same amount of WCS points and keep EU and AM to 4 seasons. Scrap the points in the season finals and make it a 3-day "super tournament" at the half-way point of the year with the 16 best players thus far (after 2 seasons in EU/AM and 3 in KR). And make Blizzcon the best show on earth.
I agree with what Fionn said, but that isn't the worst thing. The worst thing is that the local champions don't qualify for Blizzcon. I can deal with champions being beat down at 'grand slams.' It stands to reason that the skill level is close. But the fact that champions don't qualify for Blizzcon automatically means that those local championships dont mean shit even in the eyes of Blizzrd.
Other than that, it's obvious that WCS replaced GSL/OSL because the latter ran out of money. So WCS saved SC2. But it's also obvious that Blizzard are interested in only dragging this out until LOTV comes out. If they cared about esports they would've grown local scenes the way RIOT or Valve do. But regionlocking WCS US would mean lower immediate skill level, and lower views, and that would mean lower marketing value for LOTV.
On October 03 2013 00:18 NovaMB wrote: Give WCS KR 6 seasons (4 GSL, 2 OSL, 5 GSL-1OSL whatever you want) with a higher pricepool than this years WCS and the same amount of WCS points and keep EU and AM to 4 seasons. Scrap the points in the season finals and make it a 3-day "super tournament" at the half-way point of the year with the 16 best players thus far (after 2 seasons in EU/AM and 3 in KR). And make Blizzcon the best show on earth.
Who's gonna pay for that? Where does the money to support a Korean scene with no local interest come from?
On October 03 2013 00:18 NovaMB wrote: Give WCS KR 6 seasons (4 GSL, 2 OSL, 5 GSL-1OSL whatever you want) with a higher pricepool than this years WCS and the same amount of WCS points and keep EU and AM to 4 seasons. Scrap the points in the season finals and make it a 3-day "super tournament" at the half-way point of the year with the 16 best players thus far (after 2 seasons in EU/AM and 3 in KR). And make Blizzcon the best show on earth.
Who's gonna pay for that? Where does the money to support a Korean scene with no local interest come from?
Blizzard pays the pricepool as they do this year. The events should be able to sustain themselves like they did before. Even moreso if Blizzard funds the prizes.
On October 03 2013 00:20 1Dhalism wrote: I agree with what Fionn said, but that isn't the worst thing. The worst thing is that the local champions don't qualify for Blizzcon. I can deal with champions being beat down at 'grand slams.' It stands to reason that the skill level is close. But the fact that champions don't qualify for Blizzcon automatically means that those local championships dont mean shit even in the eyes of Blizzrd.
Other than that, it's obvious that WCS replaced GSL/OSL because the latter ran out of money. So WCS saved SC2. But it's also obvious that Blizzard are interested in only dragging this out until LOTV comes out. If they cared about esports they would've grown local scenes the way RIOT or Valve do. But regionlocking WCS US would mean lower immediate skill level, and lower views, and that would mean lower marketing value for LOTV.
Lower skill level doesn't have to mean lower viewership. Look at the LCS as a model. LCS NA could accurately be described as having the lowest level of skill of the regions, and yet it has extremely high viewer counts. I don't have the answer as to why, but I feel that saying that Lower skill means low viewer counts isn't necessarily true.
On October 03 2013 00:18 NovaMB wrote: Give WCS KR 6 seasons (4 GSL, 2 OSL, 5 GSL-1OSL whatever you want) with a higher pricepool than this years WCS and the same amount of WCS points and keep EU and AM to 4 seasons. Scrap the points in the season finals and make it a 3-day "super tournament" at the half-way point of the year with the 16 best players thus far (after 2 seasons in EU/AM and 3 in KR). And make Blizzcon the best show on earth.
Who's gonna pay for that? Where does the money to support a Korean scene with no local interest come from?
I agree, I think some people are too quick to blame WCS KR, when the whole scene actually fails at winning new sponsors and new viewers. WCS KR is not innocent, but it is only part of it.
Not as depressing for me as I thought it would be considering I was in the FXO fold for a while there. If there is still a quality product there will still be viewers - hopefully enough to retain the talent that brings them in the first place.
The SEA scene went through a similar peak and plateau in double speed compared to the rest of the scene but there are still weekly events no matter how minor and still teams that are loyal, with the viewers and players that follow. It's nothing compared to the glory past but I for one am content with that and if the main scene goes this way so be it - or perhaps it's just the BW background making me think nostalgically
On October 02 2013 23:50 teddyoojo wrote: i dont get it either, korea has exactly the same they had earlier.
Not really, Korea had 5 GSLs+ an OSL last year (only going with 2012 numbers) total of 6 premier leagues.
This year we had 1 GSL + 3 WCS seasons (granted next year will be 4 seasons).
The WCS pricepool more than halfed the first price from GSLs/OSL, but gave the addiotinal chance to grab 40k at the season finals. WCS scrapped 2 tournaments from Korea so it could fit into the "seasons", less player varience (because less players drop out/come in due to less tournaments). And thats the main thing I would change for Korea next year to a) give Korean progamers an incentive to play in Korea and b) give the korean players better chances to sustain themselves.
Give WCS KR 6 seasons (4 GSL, 2 OSL, 5 GSL-1OSL whatever you want) with a higher pricepool than this years WCS and the same amount of WCS points and keep EU and AM to 4 seasons. Scrap the points in the season finals and make it a 3-day "super tournament" at the half-way point of the year with the 16 best players thus far (after 2 seasons in EU/AM and 3 in KR). And make Blizzcon the best show on earth.
I really don't think the number of tournaments is the case. Players in these small teams aren't getting salaries from their sponsors. Sponsors aren't giving salaries because the viewership rating is low. SC2 viewership is so low that sponsors are pulling out.
Last year people are crying the scene is oversaturated with content. But in reality we are getting more games out of WCS from a viewership perspective. So what's the problem? The game is stale and not all that interesting to watch. Maps are virtually the same.
And let's be honest, our favourite players like MVP, life and DRG from WoL or Flash, JD and Bisu from BW aren't winning any tournaments. That's probably hurting the scene a bit.
I think Blizzard should actually learn a lesson from soccer, even though Sc2 and Soccer is not the same.
But soccer is hugely famous and that has not only to do with it being a beautiful sport. But in soccer you have different region closed leagues, like the German Bundesliga oder Premier League in England. The same applys to Blizzards WCS, if they closed the regions. On top of that, there is the championsleague. A league, where the best of the best meet every 2-3 weeks to play out matches.
I don't know what Blizzard planned on doing, but i think they wanted to come close to some kind of this.
But soccer has huge advantages:
- the regions are closly balanced - everyone is watching only his own region, because its interesting enough and you are not able to watch any other region with your tv - the games and the championsleague are watched only one day of the week.
These are the reasons, why its so successful. And now the things that are different in SC2
- the regions are not even slightly balanced. The best 20 players of this planet come from korea. - with WCS you are able to watch SC2 5 hours a day 7 days a week ... that is just toooo much. I remember times, where there was only GSL (and MLG only for a weekend), and everyone was watching sc2 on tuesday and thursday and no more. It's just absurd, but its a fact, that the more you get of something, the less interested you are in that! Additionally, why should you want to pay for GSL, if you can watch WCS every single day for 6 hours, especially as the WCS europe / american finals are full of koreans aswell?
So what can Blizzard and GOM do to improve the situation?
If Blizzard goes on like this, GOM will be dead soon, because there will be no more people that pay for GSL. So the korean scene will be weaken together with their players, while the foreigners will stay the same... In the end the all the region will be balanced ( i think !! ) But the question is... do we want that? Well i don't think so, because that means we still can watch too much games and the scene will decline.
I think the most important thing is to make the events unique!
In an earlier post someone was talking about, that there were only 14 LR pages due to the match of Rain vs. Soulkey, and the only reason why noone is talking about that is, because GSL is not unique anymore. So i think Blizzard should try to copy the soccer system with small changes.
- close regions and put more money in korean GSL, so that there is competition on a regional bases, while everyone wants to watch GSL - make WCS a single tournament exactly like the champions league in soccer. Invite the stronges 32 players on this planet (give different seats for every region - for example 26 seats to koreans, 4 seats to europeans and 2 seats to americans... there is a good system for calculating that in soccer aswell ... germany for example has 4 seats while romania has only a qualification seat). That tournament should last a whole year with one or two matches being streamed on sunday evening!
the WCS system is good for NA and EU but it totally screws the korean scene and thus hurts Esports more than it does good, as Koreans have invaded NA and EU as well. Blizzard killing Sc2 alone
Really sad news about FXO pulling out of Sc2... this seems to be a regular thing with teams now. I think the biggest issues with WCS is Blizzard not allowing tournaments to run the same time as any WCS match. Which pretty much shut down any other tournaments out there :/ There are still a few IEM/Dreamhack doing what they can but MLG was a big part of the Sc2 scene for players travelling around the world.
Lets hope everything works out for all the FXO guys!
The SC2 scene is dying and people that dont live in Korea prefer other games. No need to argue with that, there is simple proof. Just go to the TL main page and check the viewers for the streams. ATM there are like 7-8 people streaming SC2 with a total viewer count of 3,000. And there are 3 people streaming Dota 2 with a total viewer count of 14,000. 3,000 viewers for 7 people streaming sc2 - and yes i am talking about the featured streams. Trump has minimum of 6,000 viewers streaming a game that is not even released yet - Heartstone. There is nothing to argue here - if drastic measures are not taken sc2 scene will be at the bottom by the end of 2014.
On October 02 2013 23:50 teddyoojo wrote: i dont get it either, korea has exactly the same they had earlier.
Not really, Korea had 5 GSLs+ an OSL last year (only going with 2012 numbers) total of 6 premier leagues.
This year we had 1 GSL + 3 WCS seasons (granted next year will be 4 seasons).
The WCS pricepool more than halfed the first price from GSLs/OSL, but gave the addiotinal chance to grab 40k at the season finals. WCS scrapped 2 tournaments from Korea so it could fit into the "seasons", less player varience (because less players drop out/come in due to less tournaments). And thats the main thing I would change for Korea next year to a) give Korean progamers an incentive to play in Korea and b) give the korean players better chances to sustain themselves.
Give WCS KR 6 seasons (4 GSL, 2 OSL, 5 GSL-1OSL whatever you want) with a higher pricepool than this years WCS and the same amount of WCS points and keep EU and AM to 4 seasons. Scrap the points in the season finals and make it a 3-day "super tournament" at the half-way point of the year with the 16 best players thus far (after 2 seasons in EU/AM and 3 in KR). And make Blizzcon the best show on earth.
I really don't think the number of tournaments is the case. Players in these small teams aren't getting salaries from their sponsors. Sponsors aren't giving salaries because the viewership rating is low. SC2 viewership is so low that sponsors are pulling out.
Last year people are crying the scene is oversaturated with content. But in reality we are getting more games out of WCS from a viewership perspective. So what's the problem? The game is stale and not all that interesting to watch. Maps are virtually the same.
And let's be honest, our favourite players like MVP, life and DRG from WoL or Flash, JD and Bisu from BW aren't winning any tournaments. That's probably hurting the scene a bit.
Well what else is there then? Shrink down until it can sustain itself? Let SC2 become a game like CS:GO where 50k is an outstanding viewership?
If Blizzard wants to keep WCS going they need to make sure the regions arent falling apart and let the players that enjoy playing SC2 be able to sustain themselves in Korea from korean tournaments.
But I guess the real issue is probably the game itself, but I dont know BW well enough to comment on that.
"New" champions for some reason don't seem to hurt viewership in other (e)sports... Why? Because these guys often bring something fresh or are just clearly playing above the others (No Tidehunter/Alliance in Dota 2)... Or look at KP/Rattlesnake.int... In most other games "new guys" that stir up shit actually make the game more enjoyable to watch bceause people want to see how and why they win, what strange strat they will use or what the fuss about that new player/team is all about....
SC2 is just too boring/stale to watch and thats why "personalities" are so damn important for it... In SC/BW old greats were constantly fased out just to sometimes show a little (or big) spark of live (julys third OSL, Nada making a decent run again...).. Top players in most games, except dead ones, are pretty much constantly influx... Some stick around for long (Flash, Bisu, JD, Stork, Fantasy), some only have a short time in the spotlight (ForGG) and some just make one/two "decent" runs/astonishing games before going back to being "mediocre" (Luxury, Skyhigh, Calm...) or are "mediocre" but can beat basically everyone on a good day never really make it to the very top (Kal, Sea, GGPlay...)... Yet for some reason, that didn't hurt the game at all... No, it actually made it more exciting.
Btw: I hope i did not "insult" any of the SC/BW players by putting them in these categories and hope i did no big mistakes
Btw2: An example of what is wrong with Hots... I yesterday obeserved some GM PvZ clanwar games... The only "REAL" diffrence i saw from Wol is that there now is a mothership core flying over the P army. I know that there are for sure many nuances and probably even theoretical possibilities in Hots that never were in Wol... But when i don't see them IN PLAY the game just feels stale. SC2 feels too much like a build order/positioning simulator and not enough like a truely dynaimc RTS.
On October 03 2013 00:45 Velr wrote: "New" champions for some reason don't seem to hurt viewership in other (e)sports... Why? Because these guys often bring something fresh or are just clearly playing above the others (No Tidehunter/Alliance in Dota 2)... Or look at KP/Rattlesnake.int... In most other games "new guys" that stir up shit actually make the game more enjoyable to watch bceause people want to see how and why they win, what strange strat they will use or what the fuss about that new player/team is all about....
SC2 is just too boring/stale to watch and thats why "personalities" are so damn important for it... In SC/BW old greats were constantly fased out just to sometimes show a little (or big) spark of live (julys third OSL, Nada making a decent run again...).. Top players in most games, except dead ones, are pretty much constantly influx... Some stick around for long (Flash, Bisu, JD, Stork, Fantasy), some only have a short time in the spotlight (ForGG) and some just make one/two "decent" runs/astonishing games before going back to being "mediocre" (Luxury, Skyhigh, Calm...) or are "mediocre" but can beat basically everyone on a good day never really make it to the very top (Kal, Sea, GGPlay...)... Yet for some reason, that didn't hurt the game at all... No, it actually made it more exciting.
Btw: I hope i did not "insult" any of the SC/BW players by putting them in these categories and hope i did no big mistakes
Btw2: An example of what is wrong with Hots... I yesterday obeserved some GM PvZ clanwar games... The only "REAL" diffrence i saw from Wol is that there now is a mothership core flying over the P army. I know that there are for sure many nuances and probably even theoretical possibilities in Hots that never were in Wol... But when i don't see them IN PLAY the game just feels stale. SC2 feels too much like a build order/positioning simulator and not enough like a truely dynaimc RTS.
What a bunch of bullshit. SC2's viewership is on the decline thanks to stiff competition from LoL -- people want to watch the game they play, and people want to play LoL, because it's easy, fun, free, and team-based (whereas SC2 is difficult, frustrating, expensive, and solitary to the point of hostility). Changing or removing WCS is not going to fix this.
On the contrary, WCS is the best thing that could have happened to SC2. It makes it much easier to follow the storylines and watch all of your favorite players. So now the scene makes sense to people other than the most hardcore nerds. I was able to explain it to both my brother and girlfriend, and when they see me watching, they understand the format and are able to ask relevant questions about region tourneys, season finals, etc. (I do agree with the point made about season finals having a detrimental effect on storylines). Plus WCS is better for players, as more of them have a chance to make decent prize money. Plus it's better for foreigners.
There may be other games doing better than our beloved StarCraft, but there's never been a better time to be a StarCraft pro or a StarCraft viewer. And that's all that matters in my book. Most of you people don't know how to appreciate a good thing when you have it, because you're too busy eyeing someone else's good thing. Who cares how well LoL is doing? We get to see SC2 pros from all continents duke it out in tournaments with high production quality, English commentary, generous prize pools, and global significance. And that's not about to end any time soon.
"Someone will always be getting richer faster than you. This is not a tragedy." -Charlie Munger
While I do agree Blizzard needs to look at WCS and change quite a few things, for Choya to blame this all on them is a bit much. FXO has clearly been getting out of esports for awhile now. Ever since Boss left, its been a steady departure of their entire esports staff. The guys who wanted to run the team and were dedicated left.
I definitely agree that WCS is not perfect. I don't like the season finals. I don't see the point of it. I'd rather see more seasons. I do really like the unified point system though.
On October 03 2013 01:22 jmbthirteen wrote: While I do agree Blizzard needs to look at WCS and change quite a few things, for Choya to blame this all on them is a bit much. FXO has clearly been getting out of esports for awhile now. Ever since Boss left, its been a steady departure of their entire esports staff. The guys who wanted to run the team and were dedicated left.
I didn't know Boss left FXO. That explains the downsizing even more,since he was the guy who picked out Choya.
"FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
On October 03 2013 01:22 jmbthirteen wrote: While I do agree Blizzard needs to look at WCS and change quite a few things, for Choya to blame this all on them is a bit much. FXO has clearly been getting out of esports for awhile now. Ever since Boss left, its been a steady departure of their entire esports staff. The guys who wanted to run the team and were dedicated left.
I didn't know Boss left FXO. That explains the downsizing even more,since he was the guy who picked out Choya.
Boss left quite awhile ago, probably over a year ago. Unstable left about a month ago and thats when I figured FXO was going to be no more. It would be too difficult to replace that whole staff honestly.
On October 03 2013 00:31 Kamu wrote: I think Blizzard should actually learn a lesson from soccer, even though Sc2 and Soccer is not the same.
But soccer is hugely famous and that has not only to do with it being a beautiful sport. But in soccer you have different region closed leagues, like the German Bundesliga oder Premier League in England. The same applys to Blizzards WCS, if they closed the regions. On top of that, there is the championsleague. A league, where the best of the best meet every 2-3 weeks to play out matches.
I don't know what Blizzard planned on doing, but i think they wanted to come close to some kind of this.
But soccer has huge advantages:
- the regions are closly balanced - everyone is watching only his own region, because its interesting enough and you are not able to watch any other region with your tv - the games and the championsleague are watched only one day of the week.
These are the reasons, why its so successful. And now the things that are different in SC2
- the regions are not even slightly balanced. The best 20 players of this planet come from korea. - with WCS you are able to watch SC2 5 hours a day 7 days a week ... that is just toooo much. I remember times, where there was only GSL (and MLG only for a weekend), and everyone was watching sc2 on tuesday and thursday and no more. It's just absurd, but its a fact, that the more you get of something, the less interested you are in that! Additionally, why should you want to pay for GSL, if you can watch WCS every single day for 6 hours, especially as the WCS europe / american finals are full of koreans aswell?
So what can Blizzard and GOM do to improve the situation?
If Blizzard goes on like this, GOM will be dead soon, because there will be no more people that pay for GSL. So the korean scene will be weaken together with their players, while the foreigners will stay the same... In the end the all the region will be balanced ( i think !! ) But the question is... do we want that? Well i don't think so, because that means we still can watch too much games and the scene will decline.
I think the most important thing is to make the events unique!
In an earlier post someone was talking about, that there were only 14 LR pages due to the match of Rain vs. Soulkey, and the only reason why noone is talking about that is, because GSL is not unique anymore. So i think Blizzard should try to copy the soccer system with small changes.
- close regions and put more money in korean GSL, so that there is competition on a regional bases, while everyone wants to watch GSL - make WCS a single tournament exactly like the champions league in soccer. Invite the stronges 32 players on this planet (give different seats for every region - for example 26 seats to koreans, 4 seats to europeans and 2 seats to americans... there is a good system for calculating that in soccer aswell ... germany for example has 4 seats while romania has only a qualification seat). That tournament should last a whole year with one or two matches being streamed on sunday evening!
That's not true my friend, atleast the football part.
Premier League, Bundesliga, Calcio and La Liga are clearly the 4 best leagues in the world and grab more attention then all the other national leagues united. For instance Portugal has a "good" league, top 5/6 maybe a bit lower and we do care about our top teams but a "Real Madrid vs Barcelona" will grab our attention, of course even more if it's a champions league matchup!
My point being is that a swedish WCS will grab way more attention then a netherlands WCS, like a Korean will grab more then a swedish!
I'm not saying you are wrong i'm just saying that the top interest will always lie with the best and more famous players/teams all over the world.
Outside of russian, german, french(allot less without stephano), spanish, swedish, ukrainian WCS, all other euro countrys would probably suck (Sorry if i forgot someone)!
On October 03 2013 01:25 romanianthunder wrote: "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
it's okay. even if SC2 is no more in korea, we still have the foreign scene
then they realize all your best players are koreans .. lol
Why the hell do idiots like you come into the SC2 forums just to crap all over our scene and game? I'm never going to actually support BW in any form because of the toxic and childish community that gets its kicks on crapping on SC2 fans. Piss off.
I believe that SC2 fans don't/shouldn't care if the best players are koreans or not... They should care about the game itself, the scene, the E-Sport thing about it. I'm from Brazil and the players here are terrible when compared even to US players. But hey for us brazilians it's awesome to see the game growing. The matches are even an awesome for our level of play... It's all about regions and it's players. I believe that US players have a huge fanbase all around the world as Spanish players have, Swedish players have and the list goes on.
On October 03 2013 00:20 1Dhalism wrote: I agree with what Fionn said, but that isn't the worst thing. The worst thing is that the local champions don't qualify for Blizzcon. I can deal with champions being beat down at 'grand slams.' It stands to reason that the skill level is close. But the fact that champions don't qualify for Blizzcon automatically means that those local championships dont mean shit even in the eyes of Blizzrd.
Other than that, it's obvious that WCS replaced GSL/OSL because the latter ran out of money. So WCS saved SC2. But it's also obvious that Blizzard are interested in only dragging this out until LOTV comes out. If they cared about esports they would've grown local scenes the way RIOT or Valve do. But regionlocking WCS US would mean lower immediate skill level, and lower views, and that would mean lower marketing value for LOTV.
Lower skill level doesn't have to mean lower viewership. Look at the LCS as a model. LCS NA could accurately be described as having the lowest level of skill of the regions, and yet it has extremely high viewer counts. I don't have the answer as to why, but I feel that saying that Lower skill means low viewer counts isn't necessarily true.
Its how LOL does. Nobody cares about the skill level in LoL. The locals always own the viewship. Just look at the viewer number decline during group stage to bracket stage. Besides, LoL is not that an competitive game anyway. The winner not necessary means the best skill, at least that what most believes.
On October 03 2013 01:34 noSec wrote: I believe that SC2 fans don't/shouldn't care if the best players are koreans or not... They should care about the game itself, the scene, the E-Sport thing about it. I'm from Brazil and the players here are terrible when compared even to US players. But hey for us brazilians it's awesome to see the game growing. The matches are even an awesome for our level of play... It's all about regions and it's players. I believe that US players have a huge fanbase all around the world as Spanish players have, Swedish players have and the list goes on.
I am with you man. we should focus on the best games instead of the where does the player come from. But hey, it's sports, the local does matter a hell lot.
On October 03 2013 01:25 romanianthunder wrote: "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
On October 02 2013 23:50 teddyoojo wrote: i dont get it either, korea has exactly the same they had earlier.
Not really, Korea had 5 GSLs+ an OSL last year (only going with 2012 numbers) total of 6 premier leagues.
This year we had 1 GSL + 3 WCS seasons (granted next year will be 4 seasons).
The WCS pricepool more than halfed the first price from GSLs/OSL, but gave the addiotinal chance to grab 40k at the season finals. WCS scrapped 2 tournaments from Korea so it could fit into the "seasons", less player varience (because less players drop out/come in due to less tournaments). And thats the main thing I would change for Korea next year to a) give Korean progamers an incentive to play in Korea and b) give the korean players better chances to sustain themselves.
Give WCS KR 6 seasons (4 GSL, 2 OSL, 5 GSL-1OSL whatever you want) with a higher pricepool than this years WCS and the same amount of WCS points and keep EU and AM to 4 seasons. Scrap the points in the season finals and make it a 3-day "super tournament" at the half-way point of the year with the 16 best players thus far (after 2 seasons in EU/AM and 3 in KR). And make Blizzcon the best show on earth.
I really don't think the number of tournaments is the case. Players in these small teams aren't getting salaries from their sponsors. Sponsors aren't giving salaries because the viewership rating is low. SC2 viewership is so low that sponsors are pulling out.
Last year people are crying the scene is oversaturated with content. But in reality we are getting more games out of WCS from a viewership perspective. So what's the problem? The game is stale and not all that interesting to watch. Maps are virtually the same.
And let's be honest, our favourite players like MVP, life and DRG from WoL or Flash, JD and Bisu from BW aren't winning any tournaments. That's probably hurting the scene a bit.
Well what else is there then? Shrink down until it can sustain itself? Let SC2 become a game like CS:GO where 50k is an outstanding viewership?
If Blizzard wants to keep WCS going they need to make sure the regions arent falling apart and let the players that enjoy playing SC2 be able to sustain themselves in Korea from korean tournaments.
But I guess the real issue is probably the game itself, but I dont know BW well enough to comment on that.
The truth is sustainable isn't good enough. Sponsors are looking for a growing scene. One that projects to larger viewership over time. When SC2 first launched investors came with the assumption that HotS and LotV will make the game bigger and better. With HotS released, the number of viewers haven't grown much (if at all). People were also hoping proleague joining SC2 would help the scene, but instead proleague teams are getting axed one by one due to individual company's financial trouble. All of the above are hurting investor confidence.
And when you look around the corner at Dota2 or LoL, the objective choice for investors is to dump their money on these two other games which are growing (although I believe Dota2 and LoL are already reaching their peak of popularity).
On October 03 2013 01:25 romanianthunder wrote: "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
No, WCS could've been good for NA/EU for everyone if they actually had full offline events. What NA/EU scene is lacking is fan vs player interaction. Bisu claimed to have retired due to pressure and the lack of fans. And many koreans who played in NA/EU for the first time always point out how different and passionate the NA/EU fans are. Unfortunately, this interaction is limited to 3 weekends of the year in WCS finals. It's quite depressing really.
Blizzard has to be the laziest company ever, they either can't improve their game or they just don't care. They made such a half ass effort with HotS and it's showing. Let's start with the units, almost EVERY new unit is gimmicky, bad, or just lame. Tempest = Gimmicky, Oracle = Bad, gimmicky, Swarm host = gimmicky, lame, Widow mine, gimmicky (only exciting new unit to watch), Hellbat = Lame and lazy design, mothership core = extremely gimmicky, viper = gimmicky.
They didn't really improve the replay system as of late, as stated in two episodes of Meta pro players never use it because it takes too long to load the replay to practice scenarios, something they promised they were going to fix in that last patch but it didn't do anything lmao.
Then there is the content and skins, the leveling system and skins are like a beta test that actually made it into the game. A completely uninspired effort. Everyone reaches level 30 with their races after like a month or less regardless of league. Then it's done. We rarely ever get new portraits and when we do there are barely any and they aren't cool. Then there is the skins, HotS has been out for more than half a year now and there is still no indication of adding more. They give us such limited options it has to be the biggest half ass effort I've seen. It isn't even debatable that blizzard has failed hardcore in these areas and that the game would be better if they made a concerted effort here. Younger and more casual players would be far more interested if there were more customization options to personalize the game while not affecting actual balance or gameplay. There ARE players who would be willing to spend money on this kind of stuff (how much who knows but it's there). It's a good way to keep newer players interested and stimulate the game without hurting it.
WCS, it's a good idea and it's been fairly successful, but at the expense of the death of almost every other league and tournament in the scene. WCS undeniably hogs WAY too much of the game and stream time. It's WCS or nothing as a player and the fact that there is no residency lock/rules is clearly hurting opportunities for new players. What NA or EU player really wants to spend all that time for a slim chance to climb the ranks against better Korean players who are getting up early in the morning to dominate the NA and EU regions. If there was a residency (not citizenship) lock for WCS there would still be a handful of Koreans in NA and EU but it wouldn't be nearly as bad as it is now. The bigger problem though is the fact WCS is such a fat fuck of a tree that almost all the other tournaments and leagues can't really grow because all the sunlight is getting hogged (lame analogy I know but it's accurate lol).
Feels good to rant I needed to get that out, any ways my point is SC2 has the potential to be MUCH better but Blizzard squanders it because of their incompetence. It's being demonstrated heavily, just look at how many players and teams are leaving or cutting back in the past month.
On October 03 2013 01:25 romanianthunder wrote: "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
On October 03 2013 00:20 1Dhalism wrote: I agree with what Fionn said, but that isn't the worst thing. The worst thing is that the local champions don't qualify for Blizzcon. I can deal with champions being beat down at 'grand slams.' It stands to reason that the skill level is close. But the fact that champions don't qualify for Blizzcon automatically means that those local championships dont mean shit even in the eyes of Blizzrd.
Other than that, it's obvious that WCS replaced GSL/OSL because the latter ran out of money. So WCS saved SC2. But it's also obvious that Blizzard are interested in only dragging this out until LOTV comes out. If they cared about esports they would've grown local scenes the way RIOT or Valve do. But regionlocking WCS US would mean lower immediate skill level, and lower views, and that would mean lower marketing value for LOTV.
Lower skill level doesn't have to mean lower viewership. Look at the LCS as a model. LCS NA could accurately be described as having the lowest level of skill of the regions, and yet it has extremely high viewer counts. I don't have the answer as to why, but I feel that saying that Lower skill means low viewer counts isn't necessarily true.
Its how LOL does. Nobody cares about the skill level in LoL. The locals always own the viewship. Just look at the viewer number decline during group stage to bracket stage. Besides, LoL is not that an competitive game anyway. The winner not necessary means the best skill, at least that what most believes.
Are you saying that for a game to be competitive, it has to be heavily skill-based? I mean sure, there's a correlation, but saying LoL is not a competitive game is straight up delusion. I seriously hate LoL don't get me wrong, but even I have to admit it is a competitive game, and the biggest one currently around at that.
LoL is actually the one game which has the perfect mix right now, it caters to casuals and manages to be an astounding success as a competitive game. At all times of the day, LoL has 50+ viewers on twitch, culminating at 400k+ during LCS. It may not be the most skill intensive game out there, but it definitely crushed SC2 as far as exposure is concerned, and it is constantly growing as an e-sport.
Anyone who claims LoL is not a competitive game or isn't suited for e-sport only has to look at the numbers and the sheer enthusiasm for the LCS to be proven wrong.
On October 03 2013 01:25 romanianthunder wrote: "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
I am happy they aren't giving up as a team. This is just another obstacle that they need to overcome. I just really want to see something go positive soon though. I've felt nothing but negative vibes coming off of SC2 recently.
On October 03 2013 01:25 romanianthunder wrote: "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
On October 03 2013 01:25 romanianthunder wrote: "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
I was writing something long and extensive but yeah you said it shorter and easier ^^
On October 03 2013 01:25 romanianthunder wrote: "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
Interesting dynamic between what people say and think before and after situations arise. A year or two ago we were having "issues" or complaints with too many tournaments and not having the ability to have "real" champions, since the big dog was whoever won the next tournament, being 1 out of at least 4 or 5. Combined with all the small events, it seemed like there were too many to keep track of. Now with WCS cutting back on a lot of these events and honing on to a few tournaments that lead up to a grand finale, we're having issues with not enough tournaments to keep the small guys alive.
Sometimes it's hard to remember the most vocal opinions may still not be the most popular.
On October 03 2013 01:25 romanianthunder wrote: "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
On October 03 2013 00:20 1Dhalism wrote: I agree with what Fionn said, but that isn't the worst thing. The worst thing is that the local champions don't qualify for Blizzcon. I can deal with champions being beat down at 'grand slams.' It stands to reason that the skill level is close. But the fact that champions don't qualify for Blizzcon automatically means that those local championships dont mean shit even in the eyes of Blizzrd.
Other than that, it's obvious that WCS replaced GSL/OSL because the latter ran out of money. So WCS saved SC2. But it's also obvious that Blizzard are interested in only dragging this out until LOTV comes out. If they cared about esports they would've grown local scenes the way RIOT or Valve do. But regionlocking WCS US would mean lower immediate skill level, and lower views, and that would mean lower marketing value for LOTV.
Lower skill level doesn't have to mean lower viewership. Look at the LCS as a model. LCS NA could accurately be described as having the lowest level of skill of the regions, and yet it has extremely high viewer counts. I don't have the answer as to why, but I feel that saying that Lower skill means low viewer counts isn't necessarily true.
Its how LOL does. Nobody cares about the skill level in LoL. The locals always own the viewship. Just look at the viewer number decline during group stage to bracket stage. Besides, LoL is not that an competitive game anyway. The winner not necessary means the best skill, at least that what most believes.
Are you saying that for a game to be competitive, it has to be heavily skill-based? I mean sure, there's a correlation, but saying LoL is not a competitive game is straight up delusion. I seriously hate LoL don't get me wrong, but even I have to admit it is a competitive game, and the biggest one currently around at that.
LoL is actually the one game which has the perfect mix right now, it caters to casuals and manages to be an astounding success as a competitive game. At all times of the day, LoL has 50+ viewers on twitch, culminating at 400k+ during LCS. It may not be the most skill intensive game out there, but it definitely crushed SC2 as far as exposure is concerned, and it is constantly growing as an e-sport.
Anyone who claims LoL is not a competitive game or isn't suited for e-sport only has to look at the numbers and the sheer enthusiasm for the LCS to be proven wrong.
You are right. It is a good competitive game. What I mean is that it's not a skill based professional game like tennis, golf or MMA. People share the triumph of local team far far more than the best team in the world. That's why the region lock works so well. Besides, the skill lever aren't that different across the region. Unfortunately, sc2 has become more like those professional games, where the best players owns. Therefore, the same region lock simply won't work for sc2 coz we want to see the best players. And hence we lost those regionalism fanboy which is the majority. That's the dilemma sc2 is facing and I don't see a solution unless the "Korean talent" doesn't exist anymore.
I understand he's pissy about the format and lack of proper support, but he Choya sort of fucked himself over when he didn't listen to his superior's when they were asked to do more to market their players to attract sponsors and show FXO their worth. You don't listen and of course they're going to pull the plug or go in a different direction.
Nov there is validity to the guy's criticism. It actually goes both ways. You choose to see the glass half full; the other guy chooses to see the glass half empty.
On October 03 2013 01:25 romanianthunder wrote: "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
@starstruck
so let me get this straight.He has to:train the team,bring money from his own pocket to support the team and be their pr guy?don't you think you are asking a bit too much form any human being?And btw where does choiya get the money to support the team?Does he have a part time job or is it his family money.lol.
This is true people are more willing to cheer for their team than cheer for the "Best" Player. Think about Foot ball in the USA are you going to root for Greenbay packers if you live in NJ? Most likely not you will either root for Eagles or Giants or Jets depending on what part of NJ you are from. Region lock will give you that opportunity to root for "your" Player in coming to things like blizzcon and WCS events and just major tournaments in general. So really it should be a Semi Lock only for tournaments that are like WCS NA because why should I care to watch if WCS NA is going to be exactly like WCS EU or WCS KR? They all end up with having Koreans playin gin the final 4........ so its like watching the same tournament every time which is seeming to deter people away.Unless you have watched the scene and have picked a favorite korean your fav player will most likely not even be seen in the RO32....... We need hometown hero's!
WCS almost killed NASL and it is the reason for MLG not having SC2 events. It is sad that it came to a Korean to state the obvious. Apparently the foreign teams are too corporate now. Good job! GL having it for few more years.
On October 03 2013 01:25 romanianthunder wrote: "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
WCS 2012. 3 top places = 3 out of 6 (or so) koreans. Pfft, da hell is with my quotes.
so let me get this straight.He has to:train the team,bring money from his own pocket to support the team and be their pr guy?don't you think you are asking a bit too much form any human being?And btw where does choiya get the money to support the team?Does he have a part time job or is it his family money.lol.
I'm assuming you never read FXOBoSs' blogs let alone FXOunstable's take on the situation. The Korean division did nothing to help their situation. AT ALL. That's why they're getting cut off, so please stop being ignorant about the situation. This has nothing to do what Choya did with the team in the past. They got the FXO support and did very little to make their sponsors let alone FXO investments happy. If you do nothing to market the players and the product you're supposed to be pushing then you shouldn't be shocked when you get off to funding.
Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds?
On October 03 2013 01:25 romanianthunder wrote: "FXO has judged that StarCraft2 is no longer useful for giving their company exposure, and informed us they are ceasing their support because StarCraft is not doing well."
this is actually a serious issue.if sponsors will nolt come then teams will cease to exist since no money wll be available.and since the news the eg is cutting player salaries this type of thing might happen in the foreign scene in the near future.The next wcs season will be vital if studio only play is not introduced to let only people interested in the scene participate the already bleeding foreign scene will crumble.
@nosec
the only players the wcs is good for is the washed up koreans that can not make it in korea anymore and run to foreign wcs to take money from foreigners.those over the hill players leech the scene and lower the viewership.the top korean players earn far less money since winning the gsl and osl will not equate with a large prize like in ther past.Also the na and eu players can not make a living out of playing sc2 due to the fact that the washed up korean spend all year training in a korean teamhouse and then come to na and eu for a couple to days to take the money.
That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again.
"The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. " What type is explanation is that?So only mvp ozone receive the patch the other teams were playing on lol clients with different patches?lol.They had the same playing field and were eliminated by european teams(very good ones actually).and sk the team in the final got defeated twice in the group stages by a chinesse team.
"In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans " no it is already antistomp.1 kr team in the finals out of 3 is not a stomp.a stomp is 15 koreans out of 16 players in wcs ranking like sc2 has.that is a stomp.
" It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again "
the hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages and the millions who will watch the final disagree with you.And i do not even like lol.i do not even watch that thing but they have a much better buit scene than sc2.
On October 03 2013 02:07 StarStruck wrote: I understand he's pissy about the format and lack of proper support, but he Choya sort of fucked himself over when he didn't listen to his superior's when they were asked to do more to market their players to attract sponsors and show FXO their worth. You don't listen and of course they're going to pull the plug or go in a different direction.
Nov there is validity to the guy's criticism. It actually goes both ways. You choose to see the glass half full; the other guy chooses to see the glass half empty.
This is like exactly it. Even those fans they have, they suck at interacting with (apart from Leenock and JKS). I'm still cheering for FXO because it's Leenocks team but damn have they made it hard. Like the players don't even read their streamchat (apart from Leenock and JKS) when they are streaming :/ Streams becomes a lot more boring when they even read their own chat.
Choya always asks for people to cheer for them. But you actually have to earn fans, not just beg for them. And FXO fucked up massively in that department.
How are people supposed to like you if you don't care about them?
I am probably the most hardcore Leenock fan on TL and even I have some problems rooting for FXO.
On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote: Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds?
i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy.when was the last time a foreigner won a major tournament in sc2?stephano's 2011 ipl 3?and that was the last one.:/
@drpandaphd
very few korean pros read chat since they know little english and they do not interract that much.and besides fxo korea was probably more interested in the korean market then the twitch kappa raise your dongers 420 ice swag 322 yolo money in the bank pimpin aint easy day 9 is dead rustled jimmies franker z twitch chat as a foreign viewer you could probably contribute very little to their succes ;/
The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Meanwhile dota 2 gives no shits about Riot worlds numbers and just chugs along. Seriously, when are people going to stop looking at Riot huge eyes of envy and just claim that everyone needs to chase those numbers and fans.
And I am with StarStruck, if FXOBoss says the Korean team did nothing to help themselves, I believe him.
Hm I'm really hoping that Day[9]'s RTS is going to be awesome. At this point it's looking like the only hope for competitive RTS to still be a big eSport in a year or two. Some people might be okay with downsizing, but Korean Starcraft is pretty much the only Starcraft I watch. If the sponsors, fan girls, and well produced shows are gone my interest in Starcraft will be much lower.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
On October 03 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote: Meanwhile dota 2 gives no shits about Riot worlds numbers and just chugs along. Seriously, when are people going to stop looking at Riot huge eyes of envy and just claim that everyone needs to chase those numbers and fans.
actually, valve has puts a lot of effort to compete with riot. LoL has less pc requirements than dota 2. this year valve has released 3 patches where is needed less RAM, the performance of the machine is better, or run better in windows xp.
oh, and the dota community talk about LoL more often than the sc2 community
I personally feel people have to be patient with WCS. It's relatively new. WCS is going to be a very good thing for SC because we have always needed a single primary league, like the NBA, or the NFL, but transitions take time. There are always corrections that have to be made, and other companies/models that resist the unification will have to fail. That's natural.
If we're patient, WCS will allow a complete restructuring of teams and business models. I also have a feeling that crowd-funding will become a bigger and bigger part of eSports soon.
Instead of trying to compete with WCS, people need to consider supplementing it. Like college sports and high school sports. There need to be major leagues for lower level players so they can step their way up to the big leagues just like mainstream sports. Imagine if there was no high school or college basketball, who would go straight from playing for fun with their friends to training for the NBA? Not many people. You have to have motivation and opportunity in stages. If the WCS makes SC more stable at the top end, then there will be a lot of money on the lower end for people who want to compete in leagues that help them become drafted by teams who will support their WCS travels and competition, etc.
It's important to keep in mind that just because some of these guys say WCS is hurting StarCraft doesn't make it true. Maybe WCS is hurting their business model, but that just means their business model has to adapt. It's like saying cell phones hurt land lines, or the internet hurt newspapers. Tough. Get over it. Adapt and evolve, if you really want to continue being relevant.
I wish these guys the best of luck, and I hope everyone will continue working hard to make StarCraft more stable.
There used to be so many small tournaments that don't seem to exist anymore and it really is a shame. Everyone wants to have some giant prize pool and massive event when I feel like more talent was coming out when we had the ESV tourney going along with all of the other little things.
On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote: Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds?
i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy.
Do you mean like when Soulkey didn't beat innovation, or when Maru didn't beat Rain?
On October 03 2013 02:34 shockaslim wrote: There used to be so many small tournaments that don't seem to exist anymore and it really is a shame. Everyone wants to have some giant prize pool and massive event when I feel like more talent was coming out when we had the ESV tourney going along with all of the other little things.
With WCS ongoing it gives no time for other small tournaments to compete, because realistically you wouldn't want to compete with WCS as your viewer numbers will definitely suffer.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
The best thing is to let OSL and GSL be themselves again, maybe with a seperate WCS or perhaps make WCS a thing and let GSL/OSL battle it out over who to be the 2nd tournament. By limiting the chances to play like WCS has it has done some negative to the korean scene but then again who is to say there were sponsors in the first place?
All this does is push OGN to be more likely to ignore SC2 since hell Blizz and WCS is doing it.
Force players to reside where they play for WCS and its all good.
On October 03 2013 01:33 NovemberstOrm wrote: [quote] That's completely incorrect,they move to NA/EU because they are smart even if you have a 40% chance to win WCS KR why stay there when you have better odds somewhere else?
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again.
"The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. " What type is explanation is that?So only mvp ozone receive the patch the other teams were playing on lol clients with different patches?lol.They had the same playing field and were eliminated by european teams(very good ones actually).and sk the team in the final got defeated twice in the group stages by a chinesse team.
"In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans " no it is already antistomp.1 kr team in the finals out of 3 is not a stomp.a stomp is 15 koreans out of 16 players in wcs ranking like sc2 has.that is a stomp.
" It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again "
the hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages and the millions who will watch the final disagree with you.And i do not even like lol.i do not even watch that thing but they have a much better buit scene than sc2.
No. I take it you don't watch LoL? LoL is patched regularly. Certain champs get buffed/nerfed so if your pool of characters is targeted it could have pretty dramatic effects when it comes to the competitive landscape. Dade plays mid and there were only a handful of characters he's accustomed to. When you get those patch notes you have a limited amount of time to figure your shit out-- what's viable to roll mid et cetera. Dade was in an unfortunate position where a lot of his heroes just wouldn't make the cut and this happens to a lot of players. Not just Dade (for example Hai's champ pool was diminished by that patch too -- his champ pool prior was pretty decent but not at world's), so he found himself in a very precarious position and he was dumb enough to say the Korean teams would have no problems against NA/EU/China you name it. He came into World's being too cocky and they got stomped a number of times. As a coach I know it's always important to keep your players in line and likewise Dade bite too much than he could chew. At the end of the day, Dade played terribly. That's why you'd see a lot of people mocking him at the moment. As for Fnatic and the rest of the other teams i.e. C9. They still have a long, long way to go.
Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. You do not like LoL. I have a hard time believing you actually pay any attention to it as well.
On October 03 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote: Meanwhile dota 2 gives no shits about Riot worlds numbers and just chugs along. Seriously, when are people going to stop looking at Riot huge eyes of envy and just claim that everyone needs to chase those numbers and fans.
And I am with StarStruck, if FXOBoss says the Korean team did nothing to help themselves, I believe him.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
The best thing is to let OSL and GSL be themselves again, maybe with a seperate WCS or perhaps make WCS a thing and let GSL/OSL battle it out over who to be the 2nd tournament. By limiting the chances to play like WCS has it has done some negative to the korean scene but then again who is to say there were sponsors in the first place?
All this does is push OGN to be more likely to ignore SC2 since hell Blizz and WCS is doing it.
Force players to reside where they play for WCS and its all good.
Tbh i can agree with it. May elaborate what do you mean under last line though? Also, i am actually bothered with the deal that Code B qualifiers are probably harder than Code S Ro16 and Ro32, Soulkey can probably confirm it (he tried to qualify for Code A, but failed, and was seeded into Code S next season), so if you mean forcing koreans to reside in WCS KR they are screwed.
On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote: Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds?
i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy.
Do you mean like when Soulkey didn't beat innovation, or when Maru didn't beat Rain?
if you would actually pay attention to the context of the discussion | was having you would notice I was reffering to a foreigner underdog vs a korean.Also nice to cut off the part where the last foreigner to win a major tournament was stephano in 2011 with ipl.And btw i actually watched soulkey vs innovation all 7 games live.this is why koreans need to stay in korea.to play against simmilar great players with simmilar training environments and to provide competitive games and competitive series.innovation vs a random foreiner will neve result in the foreigner coming back form 3-0 to win with 4-3.
On October 03 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote: Meanwhile dota 2 gives no shits about Riot worlds numbers and just chugs along. Seriously, when are people going to stop looking at Riot huge eyes of envy and just claim that everyone needs to chase those numbers and fans.
And I am with StarStruck, if FXOBoss says the Korean team did nothing to help themselves, I believe him.
All they want to do is play. :V
It's weird that they didn't do anything to help their sponsor. EG may not win everything or a lot, but they at least know how to keep their players paid and sponsors happy. You don't see any EU team blaming WCS when they lose a sponsor.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
The best thing is to let OSL and GSL be themselves again, maybe with a seperate WCS or perhaps make WCS a thing and let GSL/OSL battle it out over who to be the 2nd tournament. By limiting the chances to play like WCS has it has done some negative to the korean scene but then again who is to say there were sponsors in the first place?
All this does is push OGN to be more likely to ignore SC2 since hell Blizz and WCS is doing it.
Force players to reside where they play for WCS and its all good.
Yes but whose to say OGN would have even continued with SC2? Bear in mind, LOL was already pushing SC2 out of certain timeslots.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
I never said regular basis thats what a region lock does..... Makes it so the other players get more exposure instead of seeing the same koreans everygame and encouraging the scene globally.... This will encourage each local people not only get more into the game because they want to be in the scene too it allows them to relate to their players, so it encourages higher competition and more and more people will want to play because of that and will increase viewers naturally .... If I'm a foreigner in SeA or NA or EU if koreans are there what do I feel my chances are to winning the tournament or even posting good results...... slim to none.... so even the ones that take a stab at it Barely go anywhere unless you are naniwa or Scarlett it just doesn't happen........ So again its like watching the same tournament over and over again with the same faces.... even my wife says "wait isn't that the same guy???? Is there anyone else that plays" lol
On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote: Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds?
i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy.
Do you mean like when Soulkey didn't beat innovation, or when Maru didn't beat Rain?
if you would actually pay attention to the context of the discussion | was having you would notice I was reffering to a foreigner underdog vs a korean.Also nice to cut off the part where the last foreigner to win a major tournament was stephano in 2011 with ipl.And btw i actually watched soulkey vs innovation all 7 games live.this is why koreans need to stay in korea.to play against simmilar great players with simmilar training environments and to provide competitive games and competitive series.innovation vs a random foreiner will neve result in the foreigner coming back form 3-0 to win with 4-3.
No I knew exactly what you were saying. I just think you should question yourself for having a problem with it.
Starbuck just beat San in WCS Challenger. I love San, he's by far my favorite player. Should I feel happy that Starbuck won, because he's slovenian and San is korean, when I myself have nothing to do with Slovenia (sorry)? Is the world supposed to be a closer place to me than Korea is?
How to fix this problem, get rid of WCS and create more tournaments. Increase the number of MLG's, ESL seasons, IEM, GSL seasons, DreamHacks (expand this tournament to other European countries or even to Asian countries - not Korea though) and any other tournament!
On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote: Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds?
i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy.
Do you mean like when Soulkey didn't beat innovation, or when Maru didn't beat Rain?
if you would actually pay attention to the context of the discussion | was having you would notice I was reffering to a foreigner underdog vs a korean.Also nice to cut off the part where the last foreigner to win a major tournament was stephano in 2011 with ipl.And btw i actually watched soulkey vs innovation all 7 games live.this is why koreans need to stay in korea.to play against simmilar great players with simmilar training environments and to provide competitive games and competitive series.innovation vs a random foreiner will neve result in the foreigner coming back form 3-0 to win with 4-3.
Random korean vs random foreigner will never ever result in this either.
On October 03 2013 01:38 romanianthunder wrote: [quote]
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again.
"The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. " What type is explanation is that?So only mvp ozone receive the patch the other teams were playing on lol clients with different patches?lol.They had the same playing field and were eliminated by european teams(very good ones actually).and sk the team in the final got defeated twice in the group stages by a chinesse team.
"In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans " no it is already antistomp.1 kr team in the finals out of 3 is not a stomp.a stomp is 15 koreans out of 16 players in wcs ranking like sc2 has.that is a stomp.
" It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again "
the hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages and the millions who will watch the final disagree with you.And i do not even like lol.i do not even watch that thing but they have a much better buit scene than sc2.
No. I take it you don't watch LoL? LoL is patched regularly. Certain champs get buffed/nerfed so if your pool of characters is targeted it could have pretty dramatic effects when it comes to the competitive landscape. Dade plays mid and there were only a handful of characters he's accustomed to. When you get those patch notes you have a limited amount of time to figure your shit out-- what's viable to roll mid et cetera. Dade was in an unfortunate position where a lot of his heroes just wouldn't make the cut and this happens to a lot of players. Not just Dade (for example Hai's champ pool was diminished by that patch too -- his champ pool prior was pretty decent but not at world's), so he found himself in a very precarious position and he was dumb enough to say the Korean teams would have no problems against NA/EU/China you name it. He came into World's being too cocky and they got stomped a number of times. As a coach I know it's always important to keep your players in line and likewise Dade bite too much than he could chew. At the end of the day, Dade played terribly. That's why you'd see a lot of people mocking him at the moment. As for Fnatic and the rest of the other teams i.e. C9. They still have a long, long way to go.
Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. You do not like LoL. I have a hard time believing you actually pay any attention to it as well.
that guy has no idea of lol, Dade got destroyed by nerfs, and He said that SK got owned twice lol, sk lost 1 and it was to the difference between metagames, and if you are a fan of korean scene you will know how hard its from them to move to another meta. (CJentus anyone? i love ambition but ) And one korean took the other so. I think in LoL Asia (KR,China) are the stompers :/
Just to make a comment about this whole underdog / entertainment value thing.
You could make the argument that even back in BW, you could describe it as even worst in this respect because it really was the same couple of players always going on deep in tournaments.
However, people still cheered for all the rest of the players because almost all of them had some unique style to their play that fans could identity them with.
Can you say the same when watching current HotS players? There is a small handful of players you could describe with unique play styles, but on the whole I would argue no. Match after match, there is very little to differentiate them aside from who actually wins. Is this the players fault? Or the game's?
Is this hurting the scene? Viewership keeps dropping, whether that's because of (as many people are saying now) an oversaturation of WCS, or the game truly has become boring to watch.
Because of WCS, all the foundations have crumbled. If things go like this again next year, then StarCraft 2 teams will be hurt even more."
On October 02 2013 19:38 Grampz wrote: been saying it all year. WCS is the downfall of sc2. Nothing but turmoil has come.
It is one step further guys.
It isn't just WCS that is hurting SC2 (it was poorly executed), it is Blizzard itself. HOTS hasn't been some vast improvement over WOL. A lot of people thought it was when it was released, but that was only because the metagame was unstable and the game seemed dynamic.
I think back to 2011, the days when I waited for ladders games. To go back to that time, I would pay good money. Anything seemed viable (this was at High Masters/low GM). You wouldn't know how the game was going to play out at all. As a Protoss player playing a Terran you might face a variation of the 1-1-1 or 1-1-2 possibly with an expand, a CC first, triple CC opening, 2 rax pressure expand, 3 rax all-in, the variety is what made the game interesting. Also Protoss had a lot of neat all-ins too, the game was very dynamic. And watching a good TvZ match between two high level players, was downright amazing.
Today, you load up TvP and you get standard Bio play nearly every game. It is really boring for me. Terran can't/won't attack because the MSC is too strong, and Protoss all-ins are increasingly risky. Might as well start everyone with two bases... and watching TvZ is pretty dull in comparison to 2011 WOL... Widow Mines are no replacement for Siege Tanks for spectators...
Wow, who'd have thought spreading Koreans throughout every region and crushing the smaller leagues would impact the SC2 eSports scene? Obviously not Blizzard...
I suppose now we get to watch the non energy drink and non PC peripheral sponsors pull support from every team gradually as they realize that their exposure is limited to less events. Congratulations on fucking everything up, Blizz. MLG and OGN don't care about SC2 anymore. That says A LOT for the NA scene, at least. The moment the foreign scene loses its EU events, this game is officially fucked. What a travesty. I feel for people like Choya, who try to make a career around SC2 after their career as a player loses momentum. There's no longevity even for support staff at this point, as much as we talk about players' careers being short.
On October 03 2013 02:54 a176 wrote: Just to make a comment about this whole underdog / entertainment value thing.
You could make the argument that even back in BW, you could describe it as even worst in this respect because it really was the same couple of players always going on deep in tournaments.
However, people still cheered for all the rest of the players because almost all of them had some unique style to their play that fans could identity them with.
Can you say the same when watching current HotS players? There is a small handful of players you could describe with unique play styles, but on the whole I would argue no. Match after match, there is very little to differentiate them aside from who actually wins. Is this the players fault? Or the game's?
Is this hurting the scene? Viewership keeps dropping, whether that's because of (as many people are saying now) an oversaturation of WCS, or the game truly has become boring to watch.
Your definitely right on the money about BW which its hard to compare the 2 because BW was and always will be the heart and pinnacle of eSports.
My thoughts are there to give it an added dynamic or needed boost to possibly revive viewership which BW never needed because of how amazing the game was. With sc2 it needs like an edge which I think this would give it to it.
Trust me though you are 100% correct I mean nothing to take away from your post by saying this I just simply am Trying to give a suggestion that could possibly make an even though 1 dimentional game playwise to give people something to cheer for
The man who brought FXO to Choya, FXO Boss says that the team did little to make the sponsors happy. Yet people blame Blizzard. This community is so predictable at times.
I really do wish there was just a dominant Korean league which foreigners could try at (and usually fail). It was such a superior competitive system, in my opinion.
As for Choya/FXO's situation, it's nice to see them sticking it out, sponsor or not. While I don't particularly care for any of the players, I do wish the best for them!
On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote: Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds?
i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy.
Do you mean like when Soulkey didn't beat innovation, or when Maru didn't beat Rain?
if you would actually pay attention to the context of the discussion | was having you would notice I was reffering to a foreigner underdog vs a korean.Also nice to cut off the part where the last foreigner to win a major tournament was stephano in 2011 with ipl.And btw i actually watched soulkey vs innovation all 7 games live.this is why koreans need to stay in korea.to play against simmilar great players with simmilar training environments and to provide competitive games and competitive series.innovation vs a random foreiner will neve result in the foreigner coming back form 3-0 to win with 4-3.
No I knew exactly what you were saying. I just think you should question yourself for having a problem with it.
Starbuck just beat San in WCS Challenger. I love San, he's by far my favorite player. Should I feel happy that Starbuck won, because he's czech and San is korean, when I myself have nothing to do with the czech republic? Is the world supposed to be a closer place to me than Korea is?
no i should not question myself for wanting to see europeans play in europe,americans playing in na and asians in asia.It is happening in all major sports and esports.i like to see asians play against asians in asia,europeans against europeans in europe and north americans against north americans in north america.How hard can it be .and stop playing the race card.if you wanna see koreans there is wcs korea.Btw i mostly watch wcs korea since it is the highest level of play instead of koreans rolfstomping in na and europe foreigners who do not benefit form their training facilities.in wcs europe there should be europeans(well according to me not to blizzard )
On October 03 2013 03:05 Plansix wrote: The man who brought FXO to Choya, FXO Boss says that the team did little to make the sponsors happy. Yet people blame Blizzard. This community is so predictable at times.
Don't forget all the people who want Blizzard out of esports (while completely ignoring they've been funneling money into GOM since release).
Dang.. Pretty bummed about the stark reality of SC2 crumbling. Is it inevitable for a game to go into such a decline naturally? I think credit should be due to all these organizations and tournaments for vitalizing the game. I'm not sure it's the WCS System. The WCS System was installed at a time when SC2 was just beginning it's snowball descent, so to pin this on them; well, that's not right either.
On October 03 2013 01:58 Aeceus wrote: Stuff would of been much worse if Blizzard had not made WCS, I will tell you that :/ Stop bitching
Indeed, this is 1,8 million dollars extra in pro players pockets, I really dont see how its bad in any way. Sure, this chould hurt some other tournaments im sure of it. But then you chould argue that Dreamhack or MLG is hurting the industry too.
On October 03 2013 02:48 MrFUBAR wrote: How to fix this problem, get rid of WCS and create more tournaments. Increase the number of MLG's, ESL seasons, IEM, GSL seasons, DreamHacks (expand this tournament to other European countries or even to Asian countries - not Korea though) and any other tournament!
Those tournaments would begin to lose a sense of novelty and prestige if you did that, so hell no..
On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote: Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds?
i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy.
Do you mean like when Soulkey didn't beat innovation, or when Maru didn't beat Rain?
if you would actually pay attention to the context of the discussion | was having you would notice I was reffering to a foreigner underdog vs a korean.Also nice to cut off the part where the last foreigner to win a major tournament was stephano in 2011 with ipl.And btw i actually watched soulkey vs innovation all 7 games live.this is why koreans need to stay in korea.to play against simmilar great players with simmilar training environments and to provide competitive games and competitive series.innovation vs a random foreiner will neve result in the foreigner coming back form 3-0 to win with 4-3.
No I knew exactly what you were saying. I just think you should question yourself for having a problem with it.
Starbuck just beat San in WCS Challenger. I love San, he's by far my favorite player. Should I feel happy that Starbuck won, because he's czech and San is korean, when I myself have nothing to do with the czech republic? Is the world supposed to be a closer place to me than Korea is?
no i should not question myself for wanting to see europeans play in europe,americans playing in na and asians in asia.It is happening in all major sports and esports.i like to see asians play against asians in asia,europeans against europeans in europe and north americans against north americans in north america.How hard can it be .and stop playing the race card.if you wanna see koreans there is wcs korea.Btw i mostly watch wcs korea since it is the highest level of play instead of koreans rolfstomping in na and europe foreigners who do not benefit form their training facilities.in wcs europe there should be europeans(well according to me not to blizzard )
So according to you, if Korean happens to live in Europe (for whatever reason), he should not play this game at all competitively :D?
We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote: Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds?
i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy.
Do you mean like when Soulkey didn't beat innovation, or when Maru didn't beat Rain?
if you would actually pay attention to the context of the discussion | was having you would notice I was reffering to a foreigner underdog vs a korean.Also nice to cut off the part where the last foreigner to win a major tournament was stephano in 2011 with ipl.And btw i actually watched soulkey vs innovation all 7 games live.this is why koreans need to stay in korea.to play against simmilar great players with simmilar training environments and to provide competitive games and competitive series.innovation vs a random foreiner will neve result in the foreigner coming back form 3-0 to win with 4-3.
No I knew exactly what you were saying. I just think you should question yourself for having a problem with it.
Starbuck just beat San in WCS Challenger. I love San, he's by far my favorite player. Should I feel happy that Starbuck won, because he's czech and San is korean, when I myself have nothing to do with the czech republic? Is the world supposed to be a closer place to me than Korea is?
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage? Yes, we could. We just don't. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage? Yes, we could. We just don't. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
Yay, it has happened, someone with common sense!
But it can't be said that WCS in its curernt form didnt limit some opportunities for players. Its good but its not the best implementation. WCS will be tweaked for next year I am sure of it and I can only hope it opens more opportunities for more players.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
I don't think BW allowed foreigners to win against koreans more than in Starcraft 2 it was much worse back than in BW afaik.
On October 03 2013 02:54 a176 wrote: Just to make a comment about this whole underdog / entertainment value thing.
You could make the argument that even back in BW, you could describe it as even worst in this respect because it really was the same couple of players always going on deep in tournaments.
However, people still cheered for all the rest of the players because almost all of them had some unique style to their play that fans could identity them with.
Can you say the same when watching current HotS players? There is a small handful of players you could describe with unique play styles, but on the whole I would argue no. Match after match, there is very little to differentiate them aside from who actually wins. Is this the players fault? Or the game's?
Is this hurting the scene? Viewership keeps dropping, whether that's because of (as many people are saying now) an oversaturation of WCS, or the game truly has become boring to watch.
Those players still got exposure via Pro League and through publication. They were on Korean Television. There needs to be some sort of return on the investment. As for tournament viewership. It isn't dropping. I don't know why you guys keep bringing that one up because it isn't true. It's not just up to the tournament organizers to help promote and give exposure to your players. The teams have to find ways of doing it themselves as well. How else do you expect to make your sponsors happy? You need to generate more exposure.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
I don't think BW allowed foreigners to win against koreans more than in Starcraft 2 it was much worse back than in BW afaik.
Well, the foreigners had very limited opportunities. Most of the time it would be us playing them on their smurf accounts via ladders on private servers because the only real shot we had at them was via WCG. That's what happens when competitive gaming is just starting to take shape. You won't have as many opportunities and the real opportunity was in Korea.
People are forgetting one thing when they keep talking about how region locking would have been better. The koreans on korean teams aren't the ones winning all the money in wcs na and eu. It's the koreans on the foreign teams that are the ones that are playing outside of korea.
If foreign teams didn't have so many koreans, then you wouldn't need a region lock as the korean teams don't have the money to travel. The foreign teams themselves doomed wcs to be filled with koreans by having so many of them, so while foreigners all cry about the koreans taking all the money, they should realize the foreign teams with koreans are the cause of that.
On October 03 2013 01:38 romanianthunder wrote: [quote]
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again.
"The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. " What type is explanation is that?So only mvp ozone receive the patch the other teams were playing on lol clients with different patches?lol.They had the same playing field and were eliminated by european teams(very good ones actually).and sk the team in the final got defeated twice in the group stages by a chinesse team.
"In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans " no it is already antistomp.1 kr team in the finals out of 3 is not a stomp.a stomp is 15 koreans out of 16 players in wcs ranking like sc2 has.that is a stomp.
" It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again "
the hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages and the millions who will watch the final disagree with you.And i do not even like lol.i do not even watch that thing but they have a much better buit scene than sc2.
No. I take it you don't watch LoL? LoL is patched regularly. Certain champs get buffed/nerfed so if your pool of characters is targeted it could have pretty dramatic effects when it comes to the competitive landscape. Dade plays mid and there were only a handful of characters he's accustomed to. When you get those patch notes you have a limited amount of time to figure your shit out-- what's viable to roll mid et cetera. Dade was in an unfortunate position where a lot of his heroes just wouldn't make the cut and this happens to a lot of players. Not just Dade (for example Hai's champ pool was diminished by that patch too -- his champ pool prior was pretty decent but not at world's), so he found himself in a very precarious position and he was dumb enough to say the Korean teams would have no problems against NA/EU/China you name it. He came into World's being too cocky and they got stomped a number of times. As a coach I know it's always important to keep your players in line and likewise Dade bite too much than he could chew. At the end of the day, Dade played terribly. That's why you'd see a lot of people mocking him at the moment. As for Fnatic and the rest of the other teams i.e. C9. They still have a long, long way to go.
Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. You do not like LoL. I have a hard time believing you actually pay any attention to it as well.
man you are spreading many lies
First of all your first paragraph is utterly nonsense since lol is a team game and the most important aspect is teamwork not necessarly individual play.There are many instances where korean lanes lose against foreign lanes.For examples foreigners have very good ad carries that sometimes win in cs against their korean competitors(for example wildturtle was always up in cs in his games against asian teams) but they still loose due to bad teamplay(oh and now i remember the fnatic ad carry having something like 10 kills above the najin sword ad carry in the quaters of finals last game and fanatic still losing the game due to bad teamwork).Generally koreans win easily due to much better team work not individual lanes failing or carrying.blaming one guy for the lose or victory is solo q mentality.this is why the korean pros in interviews talk only about teamwork and helping the team than individual skill sets.
" Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? " people.my bad.i am tired .
" Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. "
yes i participate in a lot of lol discussions.What you are refering to is a very vocal minority on the lol reddit that is usually overshadowed by the hundreds of messages congratulating riot for a good show.Also these messages are usually countered by other messages explaining why entertainment value is important to the scene.Yes it would probably be more fair if kt rolster or frost would be at worlds instead of the 0-6 wildcard teams who lose every game but in the end the viewership only go up the more foreigners are present.The only major crticism i saw was the players not being in soundproof boths and c9 playing to few games and being eliminated too soon.Also the biggest criticism riot receives is lack of international tournaments.I haven't seen that many people asking for moar koreans.More koreans is strictly the mentality of some sc2 fans
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage? Yes, we could. We just don't. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
Yay, it has happened, someone with common sense!
But it can't be said that WCS in its curernt form didnt limit some opportunities for players. Its good but its not the best implementation. WCS will be tweaked for next year I am sure of it and I can only hope it opens more opportunities for more players.
A The harsh reality is that not everybody can make it as a pro or team. The success of players and teams is not solely in the hands of Blizzard.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
I don't think BW allowed foreigners to win against koreans more than in Starcraft 2 it was much worse back than in BW afaik.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
I don't think BW allowed foreigners to win against koreans more than in Starcraft 2 it was much worse back than in BW afaik.
That's what he meant.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans?
On October 03 2013 01:44 NovemberstOrm wrote: [quote] You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again.
"The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. " What type is explanation is that?So only mvp ozone receive the patch the other teams were playing on lol clients with different patches?lol.They had the same playing field and were eliminated by european teams(very good ones actually).and sk the team in the final got defeated twice in the group stages by a chinesse team.
"In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans " no it is already antistomp.1 kr team in the finals out of 3 is not a stomp.a stomp is 15 koreans out of 16 players in wcs ranking like sc2 has.that is a stomp.
" It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again "
the hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages and the millions who will watch the final disagree with you.And i do not even like lol.i do not even watch that thing but they have a much better buit scene than sc2.
No. I take it you don't watch LoL? LoL is patched regularly. Certain champs get buffed/nerfed so if your pool of characters is targeted it could have pretty dramatic effects when it comes to the competitive landscape. Dade plays mid and there were only a handful of characters he's accustomed to. When you get those patch notes you have a limited amount of time to figure your shit out-- what's viable to roll mid et cetera. Dade was in an unfortunate position where a lot of his heroes just wouldn't make the cut and this happens to a lot of players. Not just Dade (for example Hai's champ pool was diminished by that patch too -- his champ pool prior was pretty decent but not at world's), so he found himself in a very precarious position and he was dumb enough to say the Korean teams would have no problems against NA/EU/China you name it. He came into World's being too cocky and they got stomped a number of times. As a coach I know it's always important to keep your players in line and likewise Dade bite too much than he could chew. At the end of the day, Dade played terribly. That's why you'd see a lot of people mocking him at the moment. As for Fnatic and the rest of the other teams i.e. C9. They still have a long, long way to go.
Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. You do not like LoL. I have a hard time believing you actually pay any attention to it as well.
man you are spreading many lies
First of all your first paragraph is utterly nonsense since lol is a team game and the most important aspect is teamwork not necessarly individual play.
No you're wrong. While team work is more important on average than individual skill it would be wrong to say individual skill can't influence the game too much. Dade was horrible due to his champs being nerfed and MVP could not carry him to victory and dade was the biggest reason they lost. Then you have uzi carrying royal on his back into the finals.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
I don't think BW allowed foreigners to win against koreans more than in Starcraft 2 it was much worse back than in BW afaik.
On October 03 2013 01:48 romanianthunder wrote: [quote]
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again.
"The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. " What type is explanation is that?So only mvp ozone receive the patch the other teams were playing on lol clients with different patches?lol.They had the same playing field and were eliminated by european teams(very good ones actually).and sk the team in the final got defeated twice in the group stages by a chinesse team.
"In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans " no it is already antistomp.1 kr team in the finals out of 3 is not a stomp.a stomp is 15 koreans out of 16 players in wcs ranking like sc2 has.that is a stomp.
" It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again "
the hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages and the millions who will watch the final disagree with you.And i do not even like lol.i do not even watch that thing but they have a much better buit scene than sc2.
No. I take it you don't watch LoL? LoL is patched regularly. Certain champs get buffed/nerfed so if your pool of characters is targeted it could have pretty dramatic effects when it comes to the competitive landscape. Dade plays mid and there were only a handful of characters he's accustomed to. When you get those patch notes you have a limited amount of time to figure your shit out-- what's viable to roll mid et cetera. Dade was in an unfortunate position where a lot of his heroes just wouldn't make the cut and this happens to a lot of players. Not just Dade (for example Hai's champ pool was diminished by that patch too -- his champ pool prior was pretty decent but not at world's), so he found himself in a very precarious position and he was dumb enough to say the Korean teams would have no problems against NA/EU/China you name it. He came into World's being too cocky and they got stomped a number of times. As a coach I know it's always important to keep your players in line and likewise Dade bite too much than he could chew. At the end of the day, Dade played terribly. That's why you'd see a lot of people mocking him at the moment. As for Fnatic and the rest of the other teams i.e. C9. They still have a long, long way to go.
Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. You do not like LoL. I have a hard time believing you actually pay any attention to it as well.
man you are spreading many lies
First of all your first paragraph is utterly nonsense since lol is a team game and the most important aspect is teamwork not necessarly individual play.
No you're wrong. While team work is more important on average than individual skill it would be wrong to say individual skill can't influence the game too much. Dade was horrible due to his champs being nerfed and MVP could not carry him to victory and dade was the biggest reason they lost. Then you have uzi carrying royal on his back into the finals.
whaat?uzzi had an entire team protecting him during teamfights.he is good no doubt about it but looking closely he would not do much without a well coordinated and well farmed team.all asian pros and some foreign pros that i have seen talk mostly about objectives and teamwork and how not to be a show off and not make dumb individual plays and yet you come here and tell me that an entire team lost because of 1 guy and the other won because of another .
On October 03 2013 01:44 NovemberstOrm wrote: [quote] You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again.
"The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. " What type is explanation is that?So only mvp ozone receive the patch the other teams were playing on lol clients with different patches?lol.They had the same playing field and were eliminated by european teams(very good ones actually).and sk the team in the final got defeated twice in the group stages by a chinesse team.
"In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans " no it is already antistomp.1 kr team in the finals out of 3 is not a stomp.a stomp is 15 koreans out of 16 players in wcs ranking like sc2 has.that is a stomp.
" It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again "
the hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages and the millions who will watch the final disagree with you.And i do not even like lol.i do not even watch that thing but they have a much better buit scene than sc2.
No. I take it you don't watch LoL? LoL is patched regularly. Certain champs get buffed/nerfed so if your pool of characters is targeted it could have pretty dramatic effects when it comes to the competitive landscape. Dade plays mid and there were only a handful of characters he's accustomed to. When you get those patch notes you have a limited amount of time to figure your shit out-- what's viable to roll mid et cetera. Dade was in an unfortunate position where a lot of his heroes just wouldn't make the cut and this happens to a lot of players. Not just Dade (for example Hai's champ pool was diminished by that patch too -- his champ pool prior was pretty decent but not at world's), so he found himself in a very precarious position and he was dumb enough to say the Korean teams would have no problems against NA/EU/China you name it. He came into World's being too cocky and they got stomped a number of times. As a coach I know it's always important to keep your players in line and likewise Dade bite too much than he could chew. At the end of the day, Dade played terribly. That's why you'd see a lot of people mocking him at the moment. As for Fnatic and the rest of the other teams i.e. C9. They still have a long, long way to go.
Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. You do not like LoL. I have a hard time believing you actually pay any attention to it as well.
man you are spreading many lies
First of all your first paragraph is utterly nonsense since lol is a team game and the most important aspect is teamwork not necessarly individual play.There are many instances where korean lanes lose against foreign lanes.For examples foreigners have very good ad carries that sometimes win in cs against their korean competitors(for example wildturtle was always up in cs in his games against asian teams) but they still loose due to bad teamplay(oh and now i remember the fnatic ad carry having something like 10 kills above the najin sword ad carry in the quaters of finals last game and fanatic still losing the game due to bad teamwork).Generally koreans win easily due to much better team work not individual lanes failing or carrying.blaming one guy for the lose or victory is solo q mentality.this is why the korean pros in interviews talk only about teamwork and helping the team than individual skill sets.
" Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? " people.my bad.i am tired .
" Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. "
yes i participate in a lot of lol discussions.What you are refering to is a very vocal minority on the lol reddit that is usually overshadowed by the hundreds of messages congratulating riot for a good show.Also these messages are usually countered by other messages explaining why entertainment value is important to the scene.Yes it would probably be more fair if kt rolster or frost would be at worlds instead of the 0-6 wildcard teams who lose every game but in the end the viewership only go up the more foreigners are present.The only major crticism i saw was the players not being in soundproof boths and c9 playing to few games and being eliminated too soon.Also the biggest criticism riot receives is lack of international tournaments.I haven't seen that many people asking for moar koreans.More koreans is strictly the mentality of some sc2 fans
Dude you need to stop. We already called you out for your bullshit. You couldn't get more generic and for those who actually watch can see it right away because of your oversimplification. Dade was a complete non-factor in the team game. His mechanics were completely off with the champs he rolled. As for WT, HM. Gee I wonder why Fnatic looked so far behind Royal. Hm.. It was the tale of the tape, so please stahp.
I don't recall seeing you in LoL discussion let alone the LRs because if you actually read what people were saying then you wouldn't be spouting out half the shit you say. Funny because I was never referring to the LoL Reddit community. If you go through my last 100 or so posts you would see me state many times that I pay NO ATTENTION to reddit at all unless someone quotes something on these forums. It's irrelevant. It's amazing how many people you run into in LoL who know about the competitive scene and guess what. Even in those casual conversations they will poke fun at Dade or laugh at how bad GG.EU and Mineski did. They all say the same thing: those teams were out of place. There are a lot of things Riot could do to fix the system and a lot of that remains to be seen. With that said, I bid you adieu.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage? Yes, we could. We just don't. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
Yay, it has happened, someone with common sense!
But it can't be said that WCS in its curernt form didnt limit some opportunities for players. Its good but its not the best implementation. WCS will be tweaked for next year I am sure of it and I can only hope it opens more opportunities for more players.
A The harsh reality is that not everybody can make it as a pro or team. The success of players and teams is not solely in the hands of Blizzard.
No but when the opportunity for a player to expose themselves goes away or becomes less then it is in part a result of Blizzard. Hell, I like blizzard, I think they are moving in the right direction i just think WCS was a little forced and might have come too quickly and they needed more time to organize it. WCS as it is has to a certain extent negatively impacted the NA scene with a lot of people just giving up because their chances are so small. If you want to keep the game going you need fresh blood, for new faces there must be an opportunity - simple as that. I think if WCS offered more opportunities by relaxing the scheduling issues then it could let other tournaments run along side WCS even if small to offer some sort of opportunity.
I don't think SC2 is dying I think it exploded beyond its means when KeSPA joined for Korea and it needs to shrink back a bit. I think WCS allowing Koreans to play in EU and NA took some opportunities away from NA players more than EU players and also took away the aspect of WCS last year of hometown heroes playing in regional matches like WCG but on a better stage with more production and money.
In fact I think SC2 would have fared better in Korea if Blizzard had put their WCS money into Proleague where more people get a chance to play more often and let GSL/OSL continue as they were previously.
By romanianthunder's logic, I should consider Taeja, Polt and Hyun "washed up koreans". Dang, what a sensational feeling then ! I'm probably cheering for underdogs in every matches they play when I cheer for them.
" Dude you need to stop. We already called you out for your bullshit " there is only 2 of you while most of the pros claim bad teamwork of mvp and a general bad team mentality led to their defeat.I would rather take their word for it than yours thank you.
" As for WT, HM. Gee I wonder why Fnatic looked so far behind Royal. " so fnatic looked behind because of their most fed member and the only one who could pose a thrreat to the chinesse?lol
" Funny because I was never referring to the LoL Reddit community. If you go through my last 100 or so posts you would see me state many times that I pay NO ATTENTION to reddit at all unless someone quotes something on these forums. It's irrelevant "
So let me get this straight.You claim to participate in lol discussions yet you do not participate in the largest lol community in the world )))))).Mind equals blown.Thats like saying you participate in sc2 discussions yet you do not access teamliquid or reddit sc2.What sense does that make.tl is probably one of the smallest lol communities around.your elitism is patological.
"With that said, I bid you adieu. " Good bye.But please next time add something omre constructive to the discussion and leave your elitism at home thank you
@ragnarok
if they are so good why aren't they in wcs korea.Oh I forgot its easier to look good against foreigners then accumulate lots of tournament experience and obtain a couple of good results 3 times a year at world finals than to play against highly trained koreans in korea all year round.
On October 03 2013 03:41 romanianthunder wrote: " Dude you need to stop. We already called you out for your bullshit " there is only 2 of you while most of the pros claim bad teamwork of mvp and a general bad team mentality led to their defeat.I would rather take their word for it than yours thank you.
" As for WT, HM. Gee I wonder why Fnatic looked so far behind Royal. " so fnatic looked behind because of their most fed member and the only one who could pose a thrreat to the chinesse?lol
" Funny because I was never referring to the LoL Reddit community. If you go through my last 100 or so posts you would see me state many times that I pay NO ATTENTION to reddit at all unless someone quotes something on these forums. It's irrelevant "
So let me get this straight.You claim to participate in lol discussions yet you do not participate in the largest lol community in the world )))))).Mind equals blown.Thats like saying you participate in sc2 discussions yet you do not access teamliquid or reddit sc2.What sense does that make.tl is probably one of the smallest lol communities around.your elitism is patological.
"With that said, I bid you adieu. " Good bye.But please next time add something omre constructive to the discussion and leave your elitism at home thank you
If you fail to understand where I was going with the 'Gee I wonder why Fnatic looked so far behind Royal?' which is a good way to test your cred then there is no helping you. Your ass is grass.
There are more things than Reddit. I talk to quite a lot of people and I don't just use TL LoL to find my answers so good luck going down that road. Add something more constructive? My God you are a hypocrite for someone who says they don't even like LoL yet pretends to know more than he knows. :V Funny guy.
Wow Blizzard better open their eyes soon, but I'm afraid it's probably already too late. Destiny was pretty spot on, SC2 won't eve survive as it is until LotV. At least BW had a very robust Korean scene. SC2 is headed for a dead KR scene and a lackluster foreign one. I'd give SC2 another year at best.
On October 03 2013 03:41 romanianthunder wrote: @ragnarok
if they are so good why aren't they in wcs korea.Oh I forgot its easier to look good against foreigners then accumulate lots of tournament experience and obtain a couple of good results 3 times a year at world finals than to play against highly trained koreans in korea all year round.
Because you know, there are around 100 pro-gamers in korea and at least 50 of 'em are capable of winning series against each and certainly capable of stomping 95% of foreigners. But you know, there is such thing as Korean qualifiers, and you can ask any korean how hard it is to pass one. Hell, Soulkey did not pass it, received seed to Code S and went straight to Code S Ro8 and 4-0'ing Life in it. I know, your passionate Romanian heart may not compute it, but in Korea alone there are about as many players (and even more ones, that can win online cup, playing cross server) capable of winning foreigner tourney, than in world.
@lolfail9001 If a korean person lives in EU than they are locked into playing in EU..... If they need a passport to participate in the tournament.... then they shouldn't be playing in that Regions Tournament......
On October 03 2013 00:20 1Dhalism wrote: I agree with what Fionn said, but that isn't the worst thing. The worst thing is that the local champions don't qualify for Blizzcon. I can deal with champions being beat down at 'grand slams.' It stands to reason that the skill level is close. But the fact that champions don't qualify for Blizzcon automatically means that those local championships dont mean shit even in the eyes of Blizzrd.
Other than that, it's obvious that WCS replaced GSL/OSL because the latter ran out of money. So WCS saved SC2. But it's also obvious that Blizzard are interested in only dragging this out until LOTV comes out. If they cared about esports they would've grown local scenes the way RIOT or Valve do. But regionlocking WCS US would mean lower immediate skill level, and lower views, and that would mean lower marketing value for LOTV.
Lower skill level doesn't have to mean lower viewership. Look at the LCS as a model. LCS NA could accurately be described as having the lowest level of skill of the regions, and yet it has extremely high viewer counts. I don't have the answer as to why, but I feel that saying that Lower skill means low viewer counts isn't necessarily true.
Ye, but that works for LoL because NA has personalities that have been built up. If NA had prime Idra, for example, he alone would be bringing in about 10k viewers. Current SC2 is a different story.
I am sorry, but the lack of a region-lock on WCS hurt the scene a lot. WCS EU is mostly europeans with some koreans mixed in (thank god for KR-EU lag), but WCS NA (aka WCS Korea 2) was really lackluster. Pepla are losing interest in "Korean winning every tournament".
This is where Riot and LCS are doing a better job: it created local heroes and it makes it easier for people to cheer for local heroes when there is NOT a 95% chance they will lose just because a korean player(team in LoL's case) is there.
Blizzard ruined esports. I mean with their WCS they destroyed all competition and all interest.
If they just hosted one tournament at Blizzcon with big prize pool, like say 500k giving to all top 16 players it would have been better, something similar like Valve's The International.
WCS has killed eSports everywhere but EU. Less and better players there. I live in NA and its sad to say there is NOTHING to compete in, and I see why all of this is happening. I think we all want to play and watch.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
Why does this always come up when this topic comes along. And always with the wrong conclusion. Since you are from Russia I'll assume you know what skiing is and have some grasp of that sport and use an example from the sport to explain this and what can be done to counteract it (it's also a very good sport to use since their situation is simular to korea and esports).
First some facts. Skiing has a international federation called FIS who sets all the rules for international competition. This organization exists solely to promote the sport. It does not seek to maximize gain short term but to promote the sport as a whole long term (this part is important especially for esport). The organization is run by previous active athlets and not corporations. Here's a link to their rules for international competition.
This is a growing sport that's been around for a long time and done the mistakes. It's also a sport with a very simular problem to esports. Norways is completely dominant as a nation. If there was no region locking and no limit of participation from different countries the top 10 of a world chamionship 2014 might look like this (I know there won't be a world championship next year).
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Norway 4. Russia 5. Norway 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Norway 9. Norway 10. Norway
And this is the top 10 in 5 years if this result list was ever allowed:
The international organization knows this and has put rules in place to limit Norway and other strong nations participation to make the competition more enjoyable to watch from people all over the world (as opposed to the result above who only norwegians would like). Because the goal of the organization is to grow the sport, not to promote Norway or norwegian athletes. So, every nation can only send 4 participants +1 slot for the reigning champion (follows the athlete not the country). So Norway usually has 5 participants, everyone else 4 or less. This gives Norway a little edge but nothing that will upset the competition too much. As a fan from Norway you can still look forward to a good championship where norwegians have a good chanse of winning. And a fan from every other country you can look forward to a championship where someone from your country _CAN_ win. Even Norway promotes these rules (and helped create them) because they realize that it's much more fun to be the champion in something people elsewhere care about as opposed to being the world champion in american football to take 1 example.
Despite this Norway has been dominating pretty badly again lately and the norwegians worry that this might diminish the interest in the sport globally and damage the sport. To try and counteract this they send some of their trainers to other countries to help them build up the competition.We'll see if it's enough or more action need to be taken to level the field.
This is how a professional sport works with these issues. Why is it so hard for esports to learn from them?? That is what i don't understand. Nothing we do creating these events is new except the media. When it comes to generating interest and "hype" there's over 100 years of history from other sports to learns from.
Here's a actual result from the last WC (2013) to give you and idea what these rules have ment for skiing.
Womens 10k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Russia 4. Germany 5. USA 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Finland 9. Norway 10. France
Men 15k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Canada 5. Norway 6. Sweden 7. Estonia 8. Switzerland 9. Germany 10. Sweden
On October 02 2013 23:18 Spaylz wrote: It sounds cliché, but Blizzard's stance on.. well, everything, changed after they were bought out by Activision. I wouldn't say all of the bad decisions are made by higher ups from that notoriously greedy company, as the Blizzard reps themselves have made a flew blunders, but I'm willing to bet there is some legitimate blame to be laid on Activision. Oh well, that's how the world works and everything. We'll probably never see the old Blizzard, the one with the people who knew what they could and couldn't do and who didn't compromise the quality or the management of their game for the sake of profit (not deluding myself here, Blizzard naturally always cared about profit, as any company should, but they certainly used to handle things better and just overall looked a lot less greedy in everything they did).
I'd propose a different reason for the change: WoW. Old Blizzard was a product-oriented, worldbuilding kind of company. They made boxed games, sold them, done. The company got it's fame on the back of stellar worldbuilding, and great polish. Multiplayer balancing, not so much.
But a product-oriented approach, a worldbuilding approach doesn't really work with a huge MMO. They have to turn into a service organization, and get their creative to work on churning content, but content of a different kind because there has to be a ton of twists and turns and small quests, and things have to fit into WoW's two-faction model whether it makes sense or not. + Show Spoiler +
Hey, druidistic elves ally with steamtank-making dwarven nation from across the sea? Instead of the shamanistic orcs with whom they fought against the daemons? Makes sense. As does peace-loving Thrall giving leadership to a clear warmonger who almost killed the King of Lordaeron in negotiations. Yessir. Not contrived at all. And let us not forget the spaceships. Or the physical portals into the Emerald Dream, because THAT sure isn't an ass-pull.
Finally, WoW art direction is creeping into their other franchises, steadily eroding any unique character they used to have.
On October 02 2013 23:44 Spaylz wrote: On the bright side, if SC2 does die and all Koreans go back to BW while foreigners move on to other games, it could bring Blizzard to make WC4 and try to salvage their mistakes! Absolute wishful thinking, I know. ;<
Azeroth has been damaged beyond repair by WoW. They'd need to make a complete, new world where stuff can make sense again. Not that they bothered with consistency with SC2 and D3, tho.
On October 03 2013 05:19 painkilla wrote: Funny how the SC2 dying threads are generating posts faster than a LR. So it looks like shitting on SC2 is more fun than actually watching SC2.
It takes less effort. You just copy all the previous arguments and say "design flaws" a bunch. Then blame DB and DK. EZPZ.
On October 03 2013 05:19 painkilla wrote: Funny how the SC2 dying threads are generating posts faster than a LR. So it looks like shitting on SC2 is more fun than actually watching SC2.
It takes less effort. You just copy all the previous arguments and say "design flaws" a bunch. Then blame DB and DK. EZPZ.
It's funny because that's sort of what Duran did with his thread. It's just all the same shit rehashed in one thread, so if anyone missed anything. Well, shit. He covers a lot of it. Go figure. Maybe they hope someone from Blizzard missed the other stuff so when they retype it in their own words they'll possibly see it? I don't know. It just goes around in circles and circles. In either case this has nothing really to do with this thread. I don't think half the people posting have a clue of the events that led to this and for those who are interested you might as well watch unstable's vlog with regards to it because he's pretty thorough and it makes sense as to why FXO would no longer be interested in supporting them.
On October 03 2013 05:26 partydude89 wrote: how would a region lock be fair to people in the Sea region though?
You really don't need a region lock to create a fair system though. It's very short-sighted.
On October 02 2013 23:18 Spaylz wrote: It sounds cliché, but Blizzard's stance on.. well, everything, changed after they were bought out by Activision. I wouldn't say all of the bad decisions are made by higher ups from that notoriously greedy company, as the Blizzard reps themselves have made a flew blunders, but I'm willing to bet there is some legitimate blame to be laid on Activision. Oh well, that's how the world works and everything. We'll probably never see the old Blizzard, the one with the people who knew what they could and couldn't do and who didn't compromise the quality or the management of their game for the sake of profit (not deluding myself here, Blizzard naturally always cared about profit, as any company should, but they certainly used to handle things better and just overall looked a lot less greedy in everything they did).
I'd propose a different reason for the change: WoW. Old Blizzard was a product-oriented, worldbuilding kind of company. They made boxed games, sold them, done. The company got it's fame on the back of stellar worldbuilding, and great polish. Multiplayer balancing, not so much.
But a product-oriented approach, a worldbuilding approach doesn't really work with a huge MMO. They have to turn into a service organization, and get their creative to work on churning content, but content of a different kind because there has to be a ton of twists and turns and small quests, and things have to fit into WoW's two-faction model whether it makes sense or not. + Show Spoiler +
Hey, druidistic elves ally with steamtank-making dwarven nation from across the sea? Instead of the shamanistic orcs with whom they fought against the daemons? Makes sense. As does peace-loving Thrall giving leadership to a clear warmonger who almost killed the King of Lordaeron in negotiations. Yessir. Not contrived at all. And let us not forget the spaceships. Or the physical portals into the Emerald Dream, because THAT sure isn't an ass-pull.
Finally, WoW art direction is creeping into their other franchises, steadily eroding any unique character they used to have.
On October 02 2013 23:44 Spaylz wrote: On the bright side, if SC2 does die and all Koreans go back to BW while foreigners move on to other games, it could bring Blizzard to make WC4 and try to salvage their mistakes! Absolute wishful thinking, I know. ;<
Azeroth has been damaged beyond repair by WoW. They'd need to make a complete, new world where stuff can make sense again. Not that they bothered with consistency with SC2 and D3, tho.
Yeah... I've never played WoW much, but I've been keeping up with the lore. I believe we now have beings of light that travel between worlds on spaceships, so it is true. Absolute non sense indeed.
You are probably right about WC4 too. Unless they do some sort of spin-off story, they can't realistically salvage the butchery that has been going on with the Warcraft lore. Blizzards don't really do spin-offs anyway, so here it is. Besides, they have been riding the wave of their three franchises for far too long now, and it's getting a little tiresome.
Looking at the huge success of ARTS games (which are direct derived products of WC3 itself, let us not forget it), I truly believe the formula of WC3 (RTS with heroes and a heavy focus on micro) would bring about a lot of success to the entire RTS genre. I can't be the only one to think that, really. I do hope Blizzard sees that and comes up with a similar game featuring a new world/franchise.
On October 03 2013 05:19 painkilla wrote: Funny how the SC2 dying threads are generating posts faster than a LR. So it looks like shitting on SC2 is more fun than actually watching SC2.
For the people that stop by to troll every sc2 thread and say it's dying it is more fun for them than watching sc2. I kinda agree with choya though that WCS has hurt sc2. It's one of the main reasons I won't watch sc2 cause it's just an all around shitty league. People can make up all the excuses they want for Blizzard but there are still issues they haven't resolved since since the first season. I wish WCS just went away (died) already and GSL was brought back. It would be like going from shit to amazing sc2 tournament in one fell swoop.
Everyone hopes the game studios with money will take risks to make new IPs. It's extremely unlikely since its volatile and doesn't help their prediction models.
The Region lock made local NA EU players really despondent cuz they have no chance vs the Koreans. And OSL GSL/GSTL became less prestigious because a lot of good KR players went to other regions. The whole WCS system is so stupid, no idea what blizz was thinking....
On October 03 2013 02:34 Cracklefire wrote: I personally feel people have to be patient with WCS. It's relatively new. WCS is going to be a very good thing for SC because we have always needed a single primary league, like the NBA, or the NFL, but transitions take time. There are always corrections that have to be made, and other companies/models that resist the unification will have to fail. That's natural.
If we're patient, WCS will allow a complete restructuring of teams and business models. I also have a feeling that crowd-funding will become a bigger and bigger part of eSports soon.
Instead of trying to compete with WCS, people need to consider supplementing it. Like college sports and high school sports. There need to be major leagues for lower level players so they can step their way up to the big leagues just like mainstream sports. Imagine if there was no high school or college basketball, who would go straight from playing for fun with their friends to training for the NBA? Not many people. You have to have motivation and opportunity in stages. If the WCS makes SC more stable at the top end, then there will be a lot of money on the lower end for people who want to compete in leagues that help them become drafted by teams who will support their WCS travels and competition, etc.
It's important to keep in mind that just because some of these guys say WCS is hurting StarCraft doesn't make it true. Maybe WCS is hurting their business model, but that just means their business model has to adapt. It's like saying cell phones hurt land lines, or the internet hurt newspapers. Tough. Get over it. Adapt and evolve, if you really want to continue being relevant.
I wish these guys the best of luck, and I hope everyone will continue working hard to make StarCraft more stable.
Really thoughtful first post. I appreciate your appeal for patience but that is because I am not an apocalyptic thinker.
SC2 is definitely in a state of flux. Whether it is the death of the game, a scaling-down, or something we have yet to predict, I don't really know.
My gut appeal for patience is related to my feeling that WCS is still to young to judge. Hell, I even feel that three years of a "sport" is not enough to really assess the future successes/failures of a sport, especially when the genre (e-sports) is still so young.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
This is insightful. I was into BW but not a diehard. Because BW fandom was cultivated in a different time and space (I'm thinking about the bedroom VODS which are a part of SC2 history, but much less important), the feeling for the game is not directly comparable to the feeling people have for SC2.
Couple that with the general entitlement that today's video game fans have with speaking their mind to the game developer and we find ourselves in a place that is quite different than the late 90s when SC1 and BW players and fans started developing their appreciation for the game.
Given the discussion on the most recent Meta about access to pro-gamer replays (a rarity in BW and an entitlement in HOTS given that WCS makes all their replays available), I'd argue that the "staleness" of the game is related as much to a vastly accelerated metagame. I definitely can't explain why the HOTS metagame has seemed, in some MUs, to stagnate quickly, but again, the game hasn't even been out for a year.
tl;dr Sorry to FXO-Korea, but in my opinion, we are vastly reductionist to the extent that we blame WCS for what amounts to a lot of uncertainty in the contemporary SC2 scene.
On October 02 2013 19:46 Fionn wrote: The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts.
agree fully with this, well written.
The grand slams HAS to go, they are boring and ruins GSL & OSL
anyone want to calculate what the Top 16 would be if there had been no grand slams? Just curious.
to me it seems blizzard wanted the best players from their regional leagues to duke it out at the end of the year. however they've also replaced those regional leagues with their own. in the end, blizzard wanted a "world finals" and being it called mlg/iem/osl/gsl/wcs/dh makes no difference since any of these leagues allowed koreans to play in it.
so i guess other than removing world finals, it makes no difference, suggesting region lock will be obsolete, unless you just dont want koreans playing in your local league...but that'll be stupid, no more stupid than kicking out messi from la liga because spanish league's best player should be spanish, not argentinian.
On October 03 2013 07:25 jinorazi wrote: to me it seems blizzard wanted the best players from their regional leagues to duke it out at the end of the year. however they've also replaced those regional leagues with their own. in the end, blizzard wanted a "world finals" and being it called mlg/iem/osl/gsl/wcs/dh makes no difference since any of these leagues allowed koreans to play in it.
so i guess other than removing world finals, it makes no difference, suggesting region lock will be obsolete, unless you just dont want koreans playing in your local league...but that'll be stupid, no more stupid than kicking out messi from la liga because spanish league's best player should be spanish, not argentinian.
Messi is physically on site and thus contributing to barcelona and Spains future success in soccer. You have to be a localresident to be a part of the lineup of the club in soccer. This is exactly what those who complain on the current WCS want implemented in that system as well.
Also most major leagues in soccer has rules for how many foreigners (outside of the region) can play for a team at any given time (spanish league has no such rule to my knowledge for some reason). And all players must be approved for VISA and be accepted by the local soccer federation before they can join the team. All the other sports have a federation who governs the rules about this to maintain fairness. You just don't see them as much since there arn't any headlines about this in media.
There's a lot of people comparing to other sports without realizing how things actually work within said sport. ..
I think blizzard has no idea what they are doing when it comes to esports. SC2 is not a well designed or well balanced game and these band aid fixes are doing nothing.
They need to rethink:
Battle.net / Chat interfaces / Community interface. Team games UMS games
Those were what made BW fun for a lot of casuals. The solo ladder queueing isn't that fun and you can only do it for so long before going crazy.
On October 03 2013 07:25 jinorazi wrote: to me it seems blizzard wanted the best players from their regional leagues to duke it out at the end of the year. however they've also replaced those regional leagues with their own. in the end, blizzard wanted a "world finals" and being it called mlg/iem/osl/gsl/wcs/dh makes no difference since any of these leagues allowed koreans to play in it.
so i guess other than removing world finals, it makes no difference, suggesting region lock will be obsolete, unless you just dont want koreans playing in your local league...but that'll be stupid, no more stupid than kicking out messi from la liga because spanish league's best player should be spanish, not argentinian.
Messi is physically on site and thus contributing to barcelona and Spains future success in soccer. You have to be a localresident to be a part of the lineup of the club in soccer. This is exactly what those who complain on the current WCS want implemented in that system as well.
Also most major leagues in soccer has rules for how many foreigners (outside of the region) can play for a team at any given time (spanish league has no such rule to my knowledge for some reason). And all players must be approved for VISA and be accepted by the local soccer federation before they can join the team. All the other sports have a federation who governs the rules about this to maintain fairness. You just don't see them as much since there arn't any headlines about this in media.
There's a lot of people comparing to other sports without realizing how things actually work within said sport. ..
there is a confusion, i was considering everything as a LAN event. i keep failing to realize non korean wcs is an offline event. (so i assume players are there to play)
i also understand the limitation is there to allow the local talent to shine (imo). for example KBL (korean basketball) did not allow foreigners, then changed it to 2, then tried to impose a foreigner height limit which was denied.
the scenes/leagues/regions where they already are the standard have no need for such limitation.
i'm all for region locking if 1) world finals is removed or 2) more world finals seed available to WCS KR. (EUFA gets more world cup seeds than AFC for same principle; player base/size and skill)
region locking and world finals conflict each other.
On October 03 2013 07:25 jinorazi wrote: to me it seems blizzard wanted the best players from their regional leagues to duke it out at the end of the year. however they've also replaced those regional leagues with their own. in the end, blizzard wanted a "world finals" and being it called mlg/iem/osl/gsl/wcs/dh makes no difference since any of these leagues allowed koreans to play in it.
so i guess other than removing world finals, it makes no difference, suggesting region lock will be obsolete, unless you just dont want koreans playing in your local league...but that'll be stupid, no more stupid than kicking out messi from la liga because spanish league's best player should be spanish, not argentinian.
Messi is physically on site and thus contributing to barcelona and Spains future success in soccer. You have to be a localresident to be a part of the lineup of the club in soccer. This is exactly what those who complain on the current WCS want implemented in that system as well.
Also most major leagues in soccer has rules for how many foreigners (outside of the region) can play for a team at any given time (spanish league has no such rule to my knowledge for some reason). And all players must be approved for VISA and be accepted by the local soccer federation before they can join the team. All the other sports have a federation who governs the rules about this to maintain fairness. You just don't see them as much since there arn't any headlines about this in media.
There's a lot of people comparing to other sports without realizing how things actually work within said sport. ..
there is a confusion, i was considering everything as a LAN event. i keep failing to realize non korean wcs is an offline event. (so i assume players are there to play)
i also understand the limitation is there to allow the local talent to shine (imo). for example KBL (korean basketball) did not allow foreigners, then changed it to 2, then tried to impose a foreigner height limit which was denied.
the scenes/leagues/regions where they already are the standard have no need for such limitation.
i'm all for region locking if 1) world finals is removed or 2) more world finals seed available to WCS KR. (EUFA gets more world cup seeds than AFC for same principle; player base/size and skill)
region locking and world finals conflict each other.
Not sure I understand all you're saying, so if I get any of this wrong, sorry.
In my opinion there is currently no need to put a limit on number of koreans in any league. Just require local residency like any other sport. If we see a trend that western teams only import korean players and doesn't help local talant at all, then put limits in. We are not there yet.
If you by world finals mean season finals then I agree with you. If you by world finals mean blizzcon, then I do not agree. Once a year there should be a clash with someone naming him/herself world champion after the event. Currently the defending champion is Parting in my view, he should be invited especially to this years final to defend his title against 15 contenders. If you have 3 regions that makes picking the contenders easy. Pick the top 5 in each region either by using the wcs points system or by hosting a special event (regional championship). I prefer the later since again that reminds me of other sports I watch.
As for the league it has to be seperated from the championship. Again picking football as the example each nation has a league and a championship. The winning team of those two are rarely the same. The league promotes consistency while the championship promotes a flawless run. The same can be done in the WCS system. The player with the highest points at the end of a WCS year can be the league winner. He won't win that title by winning any specific match or tournament but by consistently preforming in tournaments and series throughout the year. On the other end of the spectre you have the world champion. He might not win any other tournament of the year since he put all his effort into prepering special tactics for this one torunament. And to ensure his opponents couldn't prepare for him he refused to play or use his tactics in other tournaments throughout the year, perfecting it for that one championship run. Both these fictive guys are equally impressive and rewarded in other sports.
Handled this way it doesn't conflict and people will easily understand the system since many other sports are the same.
Again, all this have already been solved in other sports. Just use their systems. And don't copy american sports, they arn't world sports. Noone cares about them outside of USA (except a fanbase aproximately the same size as broodwar elitists). Try copying sports where there's 50 or more nations actually participating in the world championships.
On October 02 2013 19:46 Fionn wrote: The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts.
this! I feel that while the WCS idea in theory wasn't bad, killing off GSL to make WCS with all regions having the same prize money etc... just made the scene a lot worse. You have players hopping from one region to another, playing it in then going back. It's not helping the scene grow and infact, it's doing a lot more harm than good. At one point, I considered GSL to be the best tourney in SCII and any winner in it was an amazing player in my book but once WCS got implemented and players started leaving GSL(WCS KR) to other regions, the prestigious league that was GSL fell to the side as yet another (high level) tourney but missing some key players etc...
On October 03 2013 07:25 jinorazi wrote: to me it seems blizzard wanted the best players from their regional leagues to duke it out at the end of the year. however they've also replaced those regional leagues with their own. in the end, blizzard wanted a "world finals" and being it called mlg/iem/osl/gsl/wcs/dh makes no difference since any of these leagues allowed koreans to play in it.
so i guess other than removing world finals, it makes no difference, suggesting region lock will be obsolete, unless you just dont want koreans playing in your local league...but that'll be stupid, no more stupid than kicking out messi from la liga because spanish league's best player should be spanish, not argentinian.
Messi is physically on site and thus contributing to barcelona and Spains future success in soccer. You have to be a localresident to be a part of the lineup of the club in soccer. This is exactly what those who complain on the current WCS want implemented in that system as well.
Also most major leagues in soccer has rules for how many foreigners (outside of the region) can play for a team at any given time (spanish league has no such rule to my knowledge for some reason). And all players must be approved for VISA and be accepted by the local soccer federation before they can join the team. All the other sports have a federation who governs the rules about this to maintain fairness. You just don't see them as much since there arn't any headlines about this in media.
There's a lot of people comparing to other sports without realizing how things actually work within said sport. ..
there is a confusion, i was considering everything as a LAN event. i keep failing to realize non korean wcs is an offline event. (so i assume players are there to play)
i also understand the limitation is there to allow the local talent to shine (imo). for example KBL (korean basketball) did not allow foreigners, then changed it to 2, then tried to impose a foreigner height limit which was denied.
the scenes/leagues/regions where they already are the standard have no need for such limitation.
i'm all for region locking if 1) world finals is removed or 2) more world finals seed available to WCS KR. (EUFA gets more world cup seeds than AFC for same principle; player base/size and skill)
region locking and world finals conflict each other.
Nope of it were a LAN event then nobody would have a problem. Still confused why Korea needs more representation for a world final? Just because you have a stronger pool of players to pick from doesn't mean you just get to invite more. If anything proving you are the best of the best within a group of strong players should be more meaningful in itself. It's like when a foreigner won everything outside of GSL and then giving that league a go. The way things are setup now it's Blizzard wanting to maximize viewership and looking at the short term benefits rather than promoting sc2 on a regional scale so they all grow over time. I guess blizzard isn't thinking about what they could have when they get around to making starcraft 3?
Because of WCS, all the foundations have crumbled. If things go like this again next year, then StarCraft 2 teams will be hurt even more."
He is clearly confusing causation with correlation. WCS didn't ruin Sc2. I think it likely wouldn't have been even worse without WCS, but eventually if there are not enough viewers watching Sc2, then the size of this scene couldn't be sustained. Thus, it has to be scaled down.
But for there to be more tournaments, they have to be proven profitable. Blizzard came in and shat all over Gom's pay wall business model and ruined their viewership. Look at the view numbers from 2011/2012 and the view numbers from 2013. The contrast is appalling. More people watched brood lord infestor GSL than what we're seeing right now, even with all the crying and moaning about how boring the game was. SC2 in Korea was unsustainable with the introduction of KeSPA, but Blizzard took a contracting scene and made it implode.
On October 03 2013 07:25 jinorazi wrote: to me it seems blizzard wanted the best players from their regional leagues to duke it out at the end of the year. however they've also replaced those regional leagues with their own. in the end, blizzard wanted a "world finals" and being it called mlg/iem/osl/gsl/wcs/dh makes no difference since any of these leagues allowed koreans to play in it.
so i guess other than removing world finals, it makes no difference, suggesting region lock will be obsolete, unless you just dont want koreans playing in your local league...but that'll be stupid, no more stupid than kicking out messi from la liga because spanish league's best player should be spanish, not argentinian.
Messi is physically on site and thus contributing to barcelona and Spains future success in soccer. You have to be a localresident to be a part of the lineup of the club in soccer. This is exactly what those who complain on the current WCS want implemented in that system as well.
Also most major leagues in soccer has rules for how many foreigners (outside of the region) can play for a team at any given time (spanish league has no such rule to my knowledge for some reason). And all players must be approved for VISA and be accepted by the local soccer federation before they can join the team. All the other sports have a federation who governs the rules about this to maintain fairness. You just don't see them as much since there arn't any headlines about this in media.
There's a lot of people comparing to other sports without realizing how things actually work within said sport. ..
there is a confusion, i was considering everything as a LAN event. i keep failing to realize non korean wcs is an offline event. (so i assume players are there to play)
i also understand the limitation is there to allow the local talent to shine (imo). for example KBL (korean basketball) did not allow foreigners, then changed it to 2, then tried to impose a foreigner height limit which was denied.
the scenes/leagues/regions where they already are the standard have no need for such limitation.
i'm all for region locking if 1) world finals is removed or 2) more world finals seed available to WCS KR. (EUFA gets more world cup seeds than AFC for same principle; player base/size and skill)
region locking and world finals conflict each other.
Nope of it were a LAN event then nobody would have a problem. Still confused why Korea needs more representation for a world final? Just because you have a stronger pool of players to pick from doesn't mean you just get to invite more. If anything proving you are the best of the best within a group of strong players should be more meaningful in itself. It's like when a foreigner won everything outside of GSL and then giving that league a go. The way things are setup now it's Blizzard wanting to maximize viewership and looking at the short term benefits rather than promoting sc2 on a regional scale so they all grow over time. I guess blizzard isn't thinking about what they could have when they get around to making starcraft 3?
Because money. The fact that beating Americans and Europeans can get you the same number of points (which is correlated with money) as beating a tournament with people like Innovation, Parting, Soulkey, etc., is ridiculous. This is most likely why Blizzard didn't region lock and why WCS NA is all Koreans now. Without the Koreans to push the development of the metagame forward, the game becomes boring -- we already have the perspective of what could have been. Had we never seen Koreans play the game before, it would be a different story, but now that we know what you can do once you're a mechanical machine...it hurts to watch 2nd tier players win more points than the top 64 players in Korea by playing in an easier region. I love finale (a.k.a. duckdeok), but do you think he would have ever reached the Ro8 in Korea? And the people he beat to get there wouldn't have even made it to Code A aside from MC.
This was all a very long-winded way of saying that Koreans got screwed by the WCS format and the only way to actually keep that running is to give them incentives to play the freaking game. More seeds to BlizzCon means more money. But what should have happened is Blizzard should have run WCS separately from OSL/GSL and let those two tournaments do whatever they want. Who cares if you're overshadowed, look at how good the WCG games are and nobody gives a shit about that. It's money, so all the Koreans play. If you're worried about image Blizzard, just make it a better tournament. None of this competition-killing, monopolistic shit.
On October 03 2013 11:19 mrjpark wrote: This was all a very long-winded way of saying that Koreans got screwed by the WCS format and the only way to actually keep that running is to give them incentives to play the freaking game. More seeds to BlizzCon means more money. But what should have happened is Blizzard should have run WCS separately from OSL/GSL and let those two tournaments do whatever they want. Who cares if you're overshadowed, look at how good the WCG games are and nobody gives a shit about that. It's money, so all the Koreans play. If you're worried about image Blizzard, just make it a better tournament. None of this competition-killing, monopolistic shit.
But Blizzard is/was the main source of funding for Gom's prize pool to begin with. How much sense would be to fund two different tournament structures, only to have them compete with one another? Unless of course you think GomTV's going to be able to pay out big prize money off (primarily) foreigner subscriptions.
Pretty funny. I don't ever think FXO had a place in eSports. Cool that they tried though, I guess. Sucks that the team is losing their title sponsor though.
Tehe, I agree that having 1 tournament is hurting Korea. They should have put WCS on GOM and let the OSL operate separately (in my opinion). Having GSTL, ProLeague, WCS, and StarLeague would have been better than making GOM and OSL share WCS.
But yeah, like some people are saying, Korean SC2 is in the shitter because KeSPA transferred over and didn't contribute enough to take care of the completely massive amount of players their induction brought upon. Foundation would have crumbled even without a WCS system.
But seriously, contrary to what some of these replies have been saying, WCS gives me so much content that I WANT to watch... I don't understand how anyone could "stop watching sc2" because of WCS. That's just really terrible thinking. What the hell is wrong with you? lol. Because it's not region blocked? Or what? Oh well.
On October 03 2013 11:19 mrjpark wrote: This was all a very long-winded way of saying that Koreans got screwed by the WCS format and the only way to actually keep that running is to give them incentives to play the freaking game. More seeds to BlizzCon means more money. But what should have happened is Blizzard should have run WCS separately from OSL/GSL and let those two tournaments do whatever they want. Who cares if you're overshadowed, look at how good the WCG games are and nobody gives a shit about that. It's money, so all the Koreans play. If you're worried about image Blizzard, just make it a better tournament. None of this competition-killing, monopolistic shit.
But Blizzard is/was the main source of funding for Gom's prize pool to begin with. How much sense would be to fund two different tournament structures, only to have them compete with one another? Unless of course you think GomTV's going to be able to pay out big prize money off (primarily) foreigner subscriptions.
We know that Blizzard sponsored the majority if not all of the prize pool for the GSL open seasons but we don't know what % of the prize pool they provided for the following seasons, it might not be very impactful. After all GOM had a sponsor for every season(I believe).
I'm honestly in the group that says that WCS ruined their viewing experience. I was expecting good things, but it basically made the game unwatchable since the story lines all but disappeared and I couldn't follow the game at all. I just gave up eventually and I now watch the tournaments I can outside of WCS. It's kinda sad for me since I used to watch almost every game.
On October 03 2013 11:19 mrjpark wrote: This was all a very long-winded way of saying that Koreans got screwed by the WCS format and the only way to actually keep that running is to give them incentives to play the freaking game. More seeds to BlizzCon means more money. But what should have happened is Blizzard should have run WCS separately from OSL/GSL and let those two tournaments do whatever they want. Who cares if you're overshadowed, look at how good the WCG games are and nobody gives a shit about that. It's money, so all the Koreans play. If you're worried about image Blizzard, just make it a better tournament. None of this competition-killing, monopolistic shit.
But Blizzard is/was the main source of funding for Gom's prize pool to begin with. How much sense would be to fund two different tournament structures, only to have them compete with one another? Unless of course you think GomTV's going to be able to pay out big prize money off (primarily) foreigner subscriptions.
We know that Blizzard sponsored the majority if not all of the prize pool for the GSL open seasons but we don't know what % of the prize pool they provided for the following seasons, it might not be very impactful. After all GOM had a sponsor for every season(I believe).
I guess I'm being presumptuous, but I just don't see how Gom could have operated the GSL w/o significant backing (they're only running WoT with Wargaming backing and Dota 2 with the Nexon partnership). Multiple people have said they funded heavily for open seasons and this WCS has 1.6 mil at stakes (albeit split across 3 regions/finals), so I can't imagine a scenario where Blizzard severely cutting funds without it making news.
On October 02 2013 19:46 Fionn wrote: The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts.
I disagree about the Season Finals. Even if you just consider the champions, what is the difference between going out in the group stages of the Season Finals vs. the group stages the following season? They've already built their storylines with their run to the finals. The Season Finals are an opportunity perhaps for those storylines to continue but also for new stories to emerge. Consider this last season. What of Naniwa's and Scarlett's run to the Ro8, defying the odds against the Korean masses? Or Jaedongs emerging dominance of the ZvP matchup only to lose once again in the finals? And then what of Bomber himself, finally winning a tournament after 2 years of the infamous Bomber's Law? Do their narratives mean less just because they didn't win their region?
I definitely do agree about the lost prestige of the GSL though. Code S has always been the pinnacle of SCII for me, but WCS Korea just isn't quite the same and has reduced the meaning of becoming a GSL champion. I'm not sure what solution could fix that though.
Although who knows. Perhaps WCS will continue to improve and establish its own legacy, and 5 years down the line, we'll look down the hallowed line of those who managed to become WCS Champions.
Because of WCS, all the foundations have crumbled. If things go like this again next year, then StarCraft 2 teams will be hurt even more."
He is clearly confusing causation with correlation. WCS didn't ruin Sc2. I think it likely wouldn't have been even worse without WCS, but eventually if there are not enough viewers watching Sc2, then the size of this scene couldn't be sustained. Thus, it has to be scaled down.
But for there to be more tournaments, they have to be proven profitable. Blizzard came in and shat all over Gom's pay wall business model and ruined their viewership. Look at the view numbers from 2011/2012 and the view numbers from 2013. The contrast is appalling. More people watched brood lord infestor GSL than what we're seeing right now, even with all the crying and moaning about how boring the game was. SC2 in Korea was unsustainable with the introduction of KeSPA, but Blizzard took a contracting scene and made it implode.
On October 03 2013 07:25 jinorazi wrote: to me it seems blizzard wanted the best players from their regional leagues to duke it out at the end of the year. however they've also replaced those regional leagues with their own. in the end, blizzard wanted a "world finals" and being it called mlg/iem/osl/gsl/wcs/dh makes no difference since any of these leagues allowed koreans to play in it.
so i guess other than removing world finals, it makes no difference, suggesting region lock will be obsolete, unless you just dont want koreans playing in your local league...but that'll be stupid, no more stupid than kicking out messi from la liga because spanish league's best player should be spanish, not argentinian.
Messi is physically on site and thus contributing to barcelona and Spains future success in soccer. You have to be a localresident to be a part of the lineup of the club in soccer. This is exactly what those who complain on the current WCS want implemented in that system as well.
Also most major leagues in soccer has rules for how many foreigners (outside of the region) can play for a team at any given time (spanish league has no such rule to my knowledge for some reason). And all players must be approved for VISA and be accepted by the local soccer federation before they can join the team. All the other sports have a federation who governs the rules about this to maintain fairness. You just don't see them as much since there arn't any headlines about this in media.
There's a lot of people comparing to other sports without realizing how things actually work within said sport. ..
there is a confusion, i was considering everything as a LAN event. i keep failing to realize non korean wcs is an offline event. (so i assume players are there to play)
i also understand the limitation is there to allow the local talent to shine (imo). for example KBL (korean basketball) did not allow foreigners, then changed it to 2, then tried to impose a foreigner height limit which was denied.
the scenes/leagues/regions where they already are the standard have no need for such limitation.
i'm all for region locking if 1) world finals is removed or 2) more world finals seed available to WCS KR. (EUFA gets more world cup seeds than AFC for same principle; player base/size and skill)
region locking and world finals conflict each other.
Nope of it were a LAN event then nobody would have a problem. Still confused why Korea needs more representation for a world final? Just because you have a stronger pool of players to pick from doesn't mean you just get to invite more. If anything proving you are the best of the best within a group of strong players should be more meaningful in itself. It's like when a foreigner won everything outside of GSL and then giving that league a go. The way things are setup now it's Blizzard wanting to maximize viewership and looking at the short term benefits rather than promoting sc2 on a regional scale so they all grow over time. I guess blizzard isn't thinking about what they could have when they get around to making starcraft 3?
Because money. The fact that beating Americans and Europeans can get you the same number of points (which is correlated with money) as beating a tournament with people like Innovation, Parting, Soulkey, etc., is ridiculous. This is most likely why Blizzard didn't region lock and why WCS NA is all Koreans now. Without the Koreans to push the development of the metagame forward, the game becomes boring -- we already have the perspective of what could have been. Had we never seen Koreans play the game before, it would be a different story, but now that we know what you can do once you're a mechanical machine...it hurts to watch 2nd tier players win more points than the top 64 players in Korea by playing in an easier region. I love finale (a.k.a. duckdeok), but do you think he would have ever reached the Ro8 in Korea? And the people he beat to get there wouldn't have even made it to Code A aside from MC.
This was all a very long-winded way of saying that Koreans got screwed by the WCS format and the only way to actually keep that running is to give them incentives to play the freaking game. More seeds to BlizzCon means more money. But what should have happened is Blizzard should have run WCS separately from OSL/GSL and let those two tournaments do whatever they want. Who cares if you're overshadowed, look at how good the WCG games are and nobody gives a shit about that. It's money, so all the Koreans play. If you're worried about image Blizzard, just make it a better tournament. None of this competition-killing, monopolistic shit.
I'm still confused how koreans got screwed when they play in every region? Is it because they get lag when they play online games in europe from korea? Is that the next thing to cry about because everything is so unfair for korean players? Is it because they have to fly out to play a few required games?
I liked it better before WCS wrecked everything. It was less whining from koreans that think the world should revolve around them and their skill. There were more large tournaments going on. Everyone seemed happier in general toward sc2.
On October 02 2013 19:46 Fionn wrote: The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts.
I think grand finals are a good idea. There is a simple way to keep the storylines alive - restrict the championship to the regional champions only. Why not have a single day event where the American champ plays the European champ in a Bo7, then a short break before the winner of that match plays Korean Champ? It could go from city to city around the world. Only bringing three players would dramatically lower travel expenses for Blizzard.
On October 02 2013 19:46 Fionn wrote: The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts.
I think grand finals are a good idea. There is a simple way to keep the storylines alive - restrict the championship to the regional champions only. Why not have a single day event where the American champ plays the European champ in a Bo7, then a short break before the winner of that match plays Korean Champ? It could go from city to city around the world. Only bringing three players would dramatically lower travel expenses for Blizzard.
But ro8 in GSL is way cooler than winning WCS AM..
Can anyone explain to me why the WCS - system isnt that good for korea?
Is it because of the prize money? Is it too low ? Or dos the WCS-Premier league destroy the chance for any other Tournament to develop? Do the Korean sponsors want more freedom in buildung up own tournaments ?
On October 02 2013 19:46 Fionn wrote: The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts.
I think grand finals are a good idea. There is a simple way to keep the storylines alive - restrict the championship to the regional champions only. Why not have a single day event where the American champ plays the European champ in a Bo7, then a short break before the winner of that match plays Korean Champ? It could go from city to city around the world. Only bringing three players would dramatically lower travel expenses for Blizzard.
The WCS KR champ is already basically the world champ, why play some other koreans who fled to easier regions after already taking out the GSL? The hype for your grand final would be even lower than the current setup.
On October 03 2013 19:56 Crackpot wrote: Can anyone explain to me why the WCS - system isnt that good for korea?
Is it because of the prize money? Is it too low ? Or dos the WCS-Premier league destroy the chance for any other Tournament to develop? Do the Korean sponsors want more freedom in buildung up own tournaments ?
Before there were more GSLS(5+blizzard cup) + 1/2 OSLS per year the prize money for GSL was much better then wcs kr's is. it effectively removed money from the korean scene.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
Why does this always come up when this topic comes along. And always with the wrong conclusion. Since you are from Russia I'll assume you know what skiing is and have some grasp of that sport and use an example from the sport to explain this and what can be done to counteract it (it's also a very good sport to use since their situation is simular to korea and esports).
First some facts. Skiing has a international federation called FIS who sets all the rules for international competition. This organization exists solely to promote the sport. It does not seek to maximize gain short term but to promote the sport as a whole long term (this part is important especially for esport). The organization is run by previous active athlets and not corporations. Here's a link to their rules for international competition.
This is a growing sport that's been around for a long time and done the mistakes. It's also a sport with a very simular problem to esports. Norways is completely dominant as a nation. If there was no region locking and no limit of participation from different countries the top 10 of a world chamionship 2014 might look like this (I know there won't be a world championship next year).
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Norway 4. Russia 5. Norway 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Norway 9. Norway 10. Norway
And this is the top 10 in 5 years if this result list was ever allowed:
The international organization knows this and has put rules in place to limit Norway and other strong nations participation to make the competition more enjoyable to watch from people all over the world (as opposed to the result above who only norwegians would like). Because the goal of the organization is to grow the sport, not to promote Norway or norwegian athletes. So, every nation can only send 4 participants +1 slot for the reigning champion (follows the athlete not the country). So Norway usually has 5 participants, everyone else 4 or less. This gives Norway a little edge but nothing that will upset the competition too much. As a fan from Norway you can still look forward to a good championship where norwegians have a good chanse of winning. And a fan from every other country you can look forward to a championship where someone from your country _CAN_ win. Even Norway promotes these rules (and helped create them) because they realize that it's much more fun to be the champion in something people elsewhere care about as opposed to being the world champion in american football to take 1 example.
Despite this Norway has been dominating pretty badly again lately and the norwegians worry that this might diminish the interest in the sport globally and damage the sport. To try and counteract this they send some of their trainers to other countries to help them build up the competition.We'll see if it's enough or more action need to be taken to level the field.
This is how a professional sport works with these issues. Why is it so hard for esports to learn from them?? That is what i don't understand. Nothing we do creating these events is new except the media. When it comes to generating interest and "hype" there's over 100 years of history from other sports to learns from.
Here's a actual result from the last WC (2013) to give you and idea what these rules have ment for skiing.
Womens 10k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Russia 4. Germany 5. USA 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Finland 9. Norway 10. France
Men 15k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Canada 5. Norway 6. Sweden 7. Estonia 8. Switzerland 9. Germany 10. Sweden
It can be done guys.
Whoa, that's an awful analogy. Full disclosure: football is the only sport I follow these days. While the NFL tries to actively promote the sport overseas, I can assure the vast majority of the American public does not care whether or not it's watched internationally.
Taken a step further, if the game itself is intrinsically interesting, I don't think it matters where the competition comes from. That's how I feel about SC as well.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
Why does this always come up when this topic comes along. And always with the wrong conclusion. Since you are from Russia I'll assume you know what skiing is and have some grasp of that sport and use an example from the sport to explain this and what can be done to counteract it (it's also a very good sport to use since their situation is simular to korea and esports).
First some facts. Skiing has a international federation called FIS who sets all the rules for international competition. This organization exists solely to promote the sport. It does not seek to maximize gain short term but to promote the sport as a whole long term (this part is important especially for esport). The organization is run by previous active athlets and not corporations. Here's a link to their rules for international competition.
This is a growing sport that's been around for a long time and done the mistakes. It's also a sport with a very simular problem to esports. Norways is completely dominant as a nation. If there was no region locking and no limit of participation from different countries the top 10 of a world chamionship 2014 might look like this (I know there won't be a world championship next year).
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Norway 4. Russia 5. Norway 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Norway 9. Norway 10. Norway
And this is the top 10 in 5 years if this result list was ever allowed:
The international organization knows this and has put rules in place to limit Norway and other strong nations participation to make the competition more enjoyable to watch from people all over the world (as opposed to the result above who only norwegians would like). Because the goal of the organization is to grow the sport, not to promote Norway or norwegian athletes. So, every nation can only send 4 participants +1 slot for the reigning champion (follows the athlete not the country). So Norway usually has 5 participants, everyone else 4 or less. This gives Norway a little edge but nothing that will upset the competition too much. As a fan from Norway you can still look forward to a good championship where norwegians have a good chanse of winning. And a fan from every other country you can look forward to a championship where someone from your country _CAN_ win. Even Norway promotes these rules (and helped create them) because they realize that it's much more fun to be the champion in something people elsewhere care about as opposed to being the world champion in american football to take 1 example.
Despite this Norway has been dominating pretty badly again lately and the norwegians worry that this might diminish the interest in the sport globally and damage the sport. To try and counteract this they send some of their trainers to other countries to help them build up the competition.We'll see if it's enough or more action need to be taken to level the field.
This is how a professional sport works with these issues. Why is it so hard for esports to learn from them?? That is what i don't understand. Nothing we do creating these events is new except the media. When it comes to generating interest and "hype" there's over 100 years of history from other sports to learns from.
Here's a actual result from the last WC (2013) to give you and idea what these rules have ment for skiing.
Womens 10k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Russia 4. Germany 5. USA 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Finland 9. Norway 10. France
Men 15k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Canada 5. Norway 6. Sweden 7. Estonia 8. Switzerland 9. Germany 10. Sweden
It can be done guys.
Whoa, that's an awful analogy. Full disclosure: football is the only sport I follow these days. While the NFL tries to actively promote the sport overseas, I can assure the vast majority of the American public does not care whether or not it's watched internationally.
Taken a step further, if the game itself is intrinsically interesting, I don't think it matters where the competition comes from. That's how I feel about SC as well.
Spoken like a true American.
I think neither analogy is on point because of the eSports medium, if skiing is an awful analogy, NFL is just as much.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
Why does this always come up when this topic comes along. And always with the wrong conclusion. Since you are from Russia I'll assume you know what skiing is and have some grasp of that sport and use an example from the sport to explain this and what can be done to counteract it (it's also a very good sport to use since their situation is simular to korea and esports).
First some facts. Skiing has a international federation called FIS who sets all the rules for international competition. This organization exists solely to promote the sport. It does not seek to maximize gain short term but to promote the sport as a whole long term (this part is important especially for esport). The organization is run by previous active athlets and not corporations. Here's a link to their rules for international competition.
This is a growing sport that's been around for a long time and done the mistakes. It's also a sport with a very simular problem to esports. Norways is completely dominant as a nation. If there was no region locking and no limit of participation from different countries the top 10 of a world chamionship 2014 might look like this (I know there won't be a world championship next year).
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Norway 4. Russia 5. Norway 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Norway 9. Norway 10. Norway
And this is the top 10 in 5 years if this result list was ever allowed:
The international organization knows this and has put rules in place to limit Norway and other strong nations participation to make the competition more enjoyable to watch from people all over the world (as opposed to the result above who only norwegians would like). Because the goal of the organization is to grow the sport, not to promote Norway or norwegian athletes. So, every nation can only send 4 participants +1 slot for the reigning champion (follows the athlete not the country). So Norway usually has 5 participants, everyone else 4 or less. This gives Norway a little edge but nothing that will upset the competition too much. As a fan from Norway you can still look forward to a good championship where norwegians have a good chanse of winning. And a fan from every other country you can look forward to a championship where someone from your country _CAN_ win. Even Norway promotes these rules (and helped create them) because they realize that it's much more fun to be the champion in something people elsewhere care about as opposed to being the world champion in american football to take 1 example.
Despite this Norway has been dominating pretty badly again lately and the norwegians worry that this might diminish the interest in the sport globally and damage the sport. To try and counteract this they send some of their trainers to other countries to help them build up the competition.We'll see if it's enough or more action need to be taken to level the field.
This is how a professional sport works with these issues. Why is it so hard for esports to learn from them?? That is what i don't understand. Nothing we do creating these events is new except the media. When it comes to generating interest and "hype" there's over 100 years of history from other sports to learns from.
Here's a actual result from the last WC (2013) to give you and idea what these rules have ment for skiing.
Womens 10k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Russia 4. Germany 5. USA 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Finland 9. Norway 10. France
Men 15k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Canada 5. Norway 6. Sweden 7. Estonia 8. Switzerland 9. Germany 10. Sweden
It can be done guys.
Whoa, that's an awful analogy. Full disclosure: football is the only sport I follow these days. While the NFL tries to actively promote the sport overseas, I can assure the vast majority of the American public does not care whether or not it's watched internationally.
Taken a step further, if the game itself is intrinsically interesting, I don't think it matters where the competition comes from. That's how I feel about SC as well.
The analogy is also broken due to some incorectness. Dont really recall the rules for the World Champs but in the world cup each country get a number of starting spots that they have to earn by getting points (top 30 earns points) from as many different athletes. Norway and Sweden usually max out on that. You can also as a individual earn a spot for a part of the season by winning the regional cup such as the Skandinavian cup, usually won by a norweigian. In the worlds it max four per country and the reign champion on that distance. The times norway or any other country has five starters is when they world champion happends to come from norway.
Another important thing to note is that Norway is faaar from dominant especially in the mens class. They do have ALOT of good skiers below the national team compared to other countries but at the absolute top they are not that great. Fun thing, a couple of years ago I noted that Norway had over a hundread teams in the national championship relay, sweden had a little over 20.
Anyways XC skiings biggest problem is the huge retarded changes made during the last 15 years to pander to german casuals who'd rather watch fucking boring biathlon anyways. Jürg Capol is a fucking retard and has destroyed my favourite sport to a bigger difference than SC2 vs BW. It's more lite WC3 vs BW.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
Why does this always come up when this topic comes along. And always with the wrong conclusion. Since you are from Russia I'll assume you know what skiing is and have some grasp of that sport and use an example from the sport to explain this and what can be done to counteract it (it's also a very good sport to use since their situation is simular to korea and esports).
First some facts. Skiing has a international federation called FIS who sets all the rules for international competition. This organization exists solely to promote the sport. It does not seek to maximize gain short term but to promote the sport as a whole long term (this part is important especially for esport). The organization is run by previous active athlets and not corporations. Here's a link to their rules for international competition.
This is a growing sport that's been around for a long time and done the mistakes. It's also a sport with a very simular problem to esports. Norways is completely dominant as a nation. If there was no region locking and no limit of participation from different countries the top 10 of a world chamionship 2014 might look like this (I know there won't be a world championship next year).
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Norway 4. Russia 5. Norway 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Norway 9. Norway 10. Norway
And this is the top 10 in 5 years if this result list was ever allowed:
The international organization knows this and has put rules in place to limit Norway and other strong nations participation to make the competition more enjoyable to watch from people all over the world (as opposed to the result above who only norwegians would like). Because the goal of the organization is to grow the sport, not to promote Norway or norwegian athletes. So, every nation can only send 4 participants +1 slot for the reigning champion (follows the athlete not the country). So Norway usually has 5 participants, everyone else 4 or less. This gives Norway a little edge but nothing that will upset the competition too much. As a fan from Norway you can still look forward to a good championship where norwegians have a good chanse of winning. And a fan from every other country you can look forward to a championship where someone from your country _CAN_ win. Even Norway promotes these rules (and helped create them) because they realize that it's much more fun to be the champion in something people elsewhere care about as opposed to being the world champion in american football to take 1 example.
Despite this Norway has been dominating pretty badly again lately and the norwegians worry that this might diminish the interest in the sport globally and damage the sport. To try and counteract this they send some of their trainers to other countries to help them build up the competition.We'll see if it's enough or more action need to be taken to level the field.
This is how a professional sport works with these issues. Why is it so hard for esports to learn from them?? That is what i don't understand. Nothing we do creating these events is new except the media. When it comes to generating interest and "hype" there's over 100 years of history from other sports to learns from.
Here's a actual result from the last WC (2013) to give you and idea what these rules have ment for skiing.
Womens 10k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Russia 4. Germany 5. USA 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Finland 9. Norway 10. France
Men 15k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Canada 5. Norway 6. Sweden 7. Estonia 8. Switzerland 9. Germany 10. Sweden
It can be done guys.
Whoa, that's an awful analogy. Full disclosure: football is the only sport I follow these days. While the NFL tries to actively promote the sport overseas, I can assure the vast majority of the American public does not care whether or not it's watched internationally.
Taken a step further, if the game itself is intrinsically interesting, I don't think it matters where the competition comes from. That's how I feel about SC as well.
Spoken like a true American.
I think neither analogy is on point because of the eSports medium, if skiing is an awful analogy, NFL is just as much.
To be clear, I'm not asserting that NFL is a good analogy for eSports - it's not. I was actually trying to point out that it's a poor analogy for skiing (which I agree is in turn, a poor analogy for eSports.)
On its own, in eSports, the nationality of the players is irrelevant to me. What really matters is the quality of the matches - a result of the complexity and depth of the game itself.
I don't know why everyone is blaming WCS for the team's failure. They don't market themselves to foreign audiences and completely insulate themselves when it comes to producing a product people want.
You can't win games then expect it to rain money and sponsorships. You have to actively work as a marketing company if you want a financially successful team, something that very few teams seem to understand.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
Why does this always come up when this topic comes along. And always with the wrong conclusion. Since you are from Russia I'll assume you know what skiing is and have some grasp of that sport and use an example from the sport to explain this and what can be done to counteract it (it's also a very good sport to use since their situation is simular to korea and esports).
First some facts. Skiing has a international federation called FIS who sets all the rules for international competition. This organization exists solely to promote the sport. It does not seek to maximize gain short term but to promote the sport as a whole long term (this part is important especially for esport). The organization is run by previous active athlets and not corporations. Here's a link to their rules for international competition.
This is a growing sport that's been around for a long time and done the mistakes. It's also a sport with a very simular problem to esports. Norways is completely dominant as a nation. If there was no region locking and no limit of participation from different countries the top 10 of a world chamionship 2014 might look like this (I know there won't be a world championship next year).
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Norway 4. Russia 5. Norway 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Norway 9. Norway 10. Norway
And this is the top 10 in 5 years if this result list was ever allowed:
The international organization knows this and has put rules in place to limit Norway and other strong nations participation to make the competition more enjoyable to watch from people all over the world (as opposed to the result above who only norwegians would like). Because the goal of the organization is to grow the sport, not to promote Norway or norwegian athletes. So, every nation can only send 4 participants +1 slot for the reigning champion (follows the athlete not the country). So Norway usually has 5 participants, everyone else 4 or less. This gives Norway a little edge but nothing that will upset the competition too much. As a fan from Norway you can still look forward to a good championship where norwegians have a good chanse of winning. And a fan from every other country you can look forward to a championship where someone from your country _CAN_ win. Even Norway promotes these rules (and helped create them) because they realize that it's much more fun to be the champion in something people elsewhere care about as opposed to being the world champion in american football to take 1 example.
Despite this Norway has been dominating pretty badly again lately and the norwegians worry that this might diminish the interest in the sport globally and damage the sport. To try and counteract this they send some of their trainers to other countries to help them build up the competition.We'll see if it's enough or more action need to be taken to level the field.
This is how a professional sport works with these issues. Why is it so hard for esports to learn from them?? That is what i don't understand. Nothing we do creating these events is new except the media. When it comes to generating interest and "hype" there's over 100 years of history from other sports to learns from.
Here's a actual result from the last WC (2013) to give you and idea what these rules have ment for skiing.
Womens 10k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Russia 4. Germany 5. USA 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Finland 9. Norway 10. France
Men 15k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Canada 5. Norway 6. Sweden 7. Estonia 8. Switzerland 9. Germany 10. Sweden
It can be done guys.
Whoa, that's an awful analogy. Full disclosure: football is the only sport I follow these days. While the NFL tries to actively promote the sport overseas, I can assure the vast majority of the American public does not care whether or not it's watched internationally.
Taken a step further, if the game itself is intrinsically interesting, I don't think it matters where the competition comes from. That's how I feel about SC as well.
Spoken like a true American.
I think neither analogy is on point because of the eSports medium, if skiing is an awful analogy, NFL is just as much.
To be clear, I'm not asserting that NFL is a good analogy for eSports - it's not. I was actually trying to point out that it's a poor analogy for skiing (which I agree is in turn, a poor analogy for eSports.)
On its own, in eSports, the nationality of the players is irrelevant to me. What really matters is the quality of the matches - a result of the complexity and depth of the game itself.
I actually accept people with different ethnicity and beliefs. The only thing I care about is if the person has the skills and the dedication to strive for perfection.
For all the progressive ideology displayed by TL posters, majority seem to be bunch of Xenophobes in practice.
On October 04 2013 00:13 Crytash wrote: If that is true, how many real sports do you support where s. Korea is bad in?
I'm a bigger supporter of the NFL than any eSports. Bought 2 season tickets in college and went to 2 NFL games. They are truly top physical/athletic specimens on the planet. I like hockey, there isn't any Koreans in the NHL. Went to numerous baseball games, there are like 5 Korean players in the MLB. Play basketball for vascular exercise, there aren't any Korean players in the NBA. Golf occasionally, Koreans aren't dominating in the PGA only the LPGA. Love UFC, only Benson Henderson is half Korean.
I love sports because of their show of skill and talent with a whiff of violence.
SC2 is proof you can't just create an Esport, even when you have a beast like BW to build and expand from. Blizz is def. not going through it's best years, constantly on the decline.
On October 02 2013 19:29 Plansix wrote: To many teams, not enough money to go around. WCS or no, there are just to many Korean teams for the scene to support right now.
This is obviously Blizzard's fault for not having infinite money.
IMO, the biggest problem was that there weren't enough small tournaments outside of GSL and more recently OSL either for teams to make a quick buck or to attract new blood. The Korean scene was doomed to stagnate or crumble form the start.
Blizzard may not have infinite money but they are definitely not lacking, they are one of the head company's in this billion dollar industry. If they cared enough for the korean scene, they could most definitely help their korean partners to market, promote and sponsor in korea.
On October 04 2013 00:13 Crytash wrote: If that is true, how many real sports do you support where s. Korea is bad in?
I'm a bigger supporter of the NFL than any eSports. Bought 2 season tickets in college and went to 2 NFL games. They are truly top physical/athletic specimens on the planet. I like hockey, there isn't any Koreans in the NHL. Went to numerous baseball games, there are like 5 Korean players in the MLB. Play basketball for vascular exercise, there aren't any Korean players in the NBA. Golf occasionally, Koreans aren't dominating in the PGA only the LPGA. Love UFC, only Benson Henderson is half Korean.
I love sports because of their show of skill and talent with a whiff of violence.
Well, if you live in the USA, those dominant sports don't count as well, right? :D You can easily identify with them, becouse you can actually visit the stadions.
On October 04 2013 00:13 Crytash wrote: If that is true, how many real sports do you support where s. Korea is bad in?
I'm a bigger supporter of the NFL than any eSports. Bought 2 season tickets in college and went to 2 NFL games. They are truly top physical/athletic specimens on the planet. I like hockey, there isn't any Koreans in the NHL. Went to numerous baseball games, there are like 5 Korean players in the MLB. Play basketball for vascular exercise, there aren't any Korean players in the NBA. Golf occasionally, Koreans aren't dominating in the PGA only the LPGA. Love UFC, only Benson Henderson is half Korean.
I love sports because of their show of skill and talent with a whiff of violence.
Well, if you live in the USA, those dominant sports don't count as well, right? :D You can easily identify with them, becouse you can actually visit the stadions.
You are comparing two totally different skills. E-Sports generally targets strategical thinking mixed with really quick reflexes and quick thinking on the spot. Sure a e-sports pro-gamer can't shoot a basket like Kobe, tackle a NFL player, strike out a batter in the MLB, take Tiger Woods spot as #1 PGA ranking, but i would love to see anybody from MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, PGA, UFC try to beat Flash in a best of 100 in a Brood War game.
On October 04 2013 00:13 Crytash wrote: If that is true, how many real sports do you support where s. Korea is bad in?
I'm a bigger supporter of the NFL than any eSports. Bought 2 season tickets in college and went to 2 NFL games. They are truly top physical/athletic specimens on the planet. I like hockey, there isn't any Koreans in the NHL. Went to numerous baseball games, there are like 5 Korean players in the MLB. Play basketball for vascular exercise, there aren't any Korean players in the NBA. Golf occasionally, Koreans aren't dominating in the PGA only the LPGA. Love UFC, only Benson Henderson is half Korean.
I love sports because of their show of skill and talent with a whiff of violence.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
Why does this always come up when this topic comes along. And always with the wrong conclusion. Since you are from Russia I'll assume you know what skiing is and have some grasp of that sport and use an example from the sport to explain this and what can be done to counteract it (it's also a very good sport to use since their situation is simular to korea and esports).
First some facts. Skiing has a international federation called FIS who sets all the rules for international competition. This organization exists solely to promote the sport. It does not seek to maximize gain short term but to promote the sport as a whole long term (this part is important especially for esport). The organization is run by previous active athlets and not corporations. Here's a link to their rules for international competition.
This is a growing sport that's been around for a long time and done the mistakes. It's also a sport with a very simular problem to esports. Norways is completely dominant as a nation. If there was no region locking and no limit of participation from different countries the top 10 of a world chamionship 2014 might look like this (I know there won't be a world championship next year).
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Norway 4. Russia 5. Norway 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Norway 9. Norway 10. Norway
And this is the top 10 in 5 years if this result list was ever allowed:
The international organization knows this and has put rules in place to limit Norway and other strong nations participation to make the competition more enjoyable to watch from people all over the world (as opposed to the result above who only norwegians would like). Because the goal of the organization is to grow the sport, not to promote Norway or norwegian athletes. So, every nation can only send 4 participants +1 slot for the reigning champion (follows the athlete not the country). So Norway usually has 5 participants, everyone else 4 or less. This gives Norway a little edge but nothing that will upset the competition too much. As a fan from Norway you can still look forward to a good championship where norwegians have a good chanse of winning. And a fan from every other country you can look forward to a championship where someone from your country _CAN_ win. Even Norway promotes these rules (and helped create them) because they realize that it's much more fun to be the champion in something people elsewhere care about as opposed to being the world champion in american football to take 1 example.
Despite this Norway has been dominating pretty badly again lately and the norwegians worry that this might diminish the interest in the sport globally and damage the sport. To try and counteract this they send some of their trainers to other countries to help them build up the competition.We'll see if it's enough or more action need to be taken to level the field.
This is how a professional sport works with these issues. Why is it so hard for esports to learn from them?? That is what i don't understand. Nothing we do creating these events is new except the media. When it comes to generating interest and "hype" there's over 100 years of history from other sports to learns from.
Here's a actual result from the last WC (2013) to give you and idea what these rules have ment for skiing.
Womens 10k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Russia 4. Germany 5. USA 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Finland 9. Norway 10. France
Men 15k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Canada 5. Norway 6. Sweden 7. Estonia 8. Switzerland 9. Germany 10. Sweden
It can be done guys.
Whoa, that's an awful analogy. Full disclosure: football is the only sport I follow these days. While the NFL tries to actively promote the sport overseas, I can assure the vast majority of the American public does not care whether or not it's watched internationally.
Taken a step further, if the game itself is intrinsically interesting, I don't think it matters where the competition comes from. That's how I feel about SC as well.
Spoken like a true American.
I think neither analogy is on point because of the eSports medium, if skiing is an awful analogy, NFL is just as much.
To be clear, I'm not asserting that NFL is a good analogy for eSports - it's not. I was actually trying to point out that it's a poor analogy for skiing (which I agree is in turn, a poor analogy for eSports.)
On its own, in eSports, the nationality of the players is irrelevant to me. What really matters is the quality of the matches - a result of the complexity and depth of the game itself.
I don't really see how the skiing analogy is a bad one. You want to see high quality matches. In the Skiing analogy, the Norwegians are the Koreans and thus show the highest quality of competition. That's a pretty perfect analogy if you ask me, dead on.
It was a post showing that they have made rules and regulations that allow these other countries to be viable in their sport, which in turn improves the viewership of the sport in other countries. This analogy is saying "Hey, skiing was in a similar position where a ton of people do it but the competition is severely lopsided. Their rules and regulations have allowed other countries to fight for a pretty decent showing."
The problem is just that the vocal minority of the community can't get over the "I want to see good games, only the best" ideals. It's completely unreasonable and an unsustainable model. "NA players just need to get better" there's no opportunity for that to happen, I'd say that's probably a much more xenophobic mentality than the insulting accusation that those of us who want to see NA players in competition.
I don't give a single fuck if Koreans win every single tournament for the rest of SC2's existence as long as Blizzard puts in rules and regulations that allow for NA/EU/SEA/etc players to get to the point of competing. If no changes are made to even the playing field I'm going to lose a ton of interest and go back to just watching the pros I like, and I'd bet there are enough people like me to continue making a dent in the viewership. You "best games" guys have tournaments you can watch for that stuff. I don't understand why it's such this ungodly big deal when a tournament wants to cater strictly to NA pros or allow them a chance.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
Why does this always come up when this topic comes along. And always with the wrong conclusion. Since you are from Russia I'll assume you know what skiing is and have some grasp of that sport and use an example from the sport to explain this and what can be done to counteract it (it's also a very good sport to use since their situation is simular to korea and esports).
First some facts. Skiing has a international federation called FIS who sets all the rules for international competition. This organization exists solely to promote the sport. It does not seek to maximize gain short term but to promote the sport as a whole long term (this part is important especially for esport). The organization is run by previous active athlets and not corporations. Here's a link to their rules for international competition.
This is a growing sport that's been around for a long time and done the mistakes. It's also a sport with a very simular problem to esports. Norways is completely dominant as a nation. If there was no region locking and no limit of participation from different countries the top 10 of a world chamionship 2014 might look like this (I know there won't be a world championship next year).
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Norway 4. Russia 5. Norway 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Norway 9. Norway 10. Norway
And this is the top 10 in 5 years if this result list was ever allowed:
The international organization knows this and has put rules in place to limit Norway and other strong nations participation to make the competition more enjoyable to watch from people all over the world (as opposed to the result above who only norwegians would like). Because the goal of the organization is to grow the sport, not to promote Norway or norwegian athletes. So, every nation can only send 4 participants +1 slot for the reigning champion (follows the athlete not the country). So Norway usually has 5 participants, everyone else 4 or less. This gives Norway a little edge but nothing that will upset the competition too much. As a fan from Norway you can still look forward to a good championship where norwegians have a good chanse of winning. And a fan from every other country you can look forward to a championship where someone from your country _CAN_ win. Even Norway promotes these rules (and helped create them) because they realize that it's much more fun to be the champion in something people elsewhere care about as opposed to being the world champion in american football to take 1 example.
Despite this Norway has been dominating pretty badly again lately and the norwegians worry that this might diminish the interest in the sport globally and damage the sport. To try and counteract this they send some of their trainers to other countries to help them build up the competition.We'll see if it's enough or more action need to be taken to level the field.
This is how a professional sport works with these issues. Why is it so hard for esports to learn from them?? That is what i don't understand. Nothing we do creating these events is new except the media. When it comes to generating interest and "hype" there's over 100 years of history from other sports to learns from.
Here's a actual result from the last WC (2013) to give you and idea what these rules have ment for skiing.
Womens 10k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Russia 4. Germany 5. USA 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Finland 9. Norway 10. France
Men 15k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Canada 5. Norway 6. Sweden 7. Estonia 8. Switzerland 9. Germany 10. Sweden
It can be done guys.
Whoa, that's an awful analogy. Full disclosure: football is the only sport I follow these days. While the NFL tries to actively promote the sport overseas, I can assure the vast majority of the American public does not care whether or not it's watched internationally.
Taken a step further, if the game itself is intrinsically interesting, I don't think it matters where the competition comes from. That's how I feel about SC as well.
Spoken like a true American.
I think neither analogy is on point because of the eSports medium, if skiing is an awful analogy, NFL is just as much.
To be clear, I'm not asserting that NFL is a good analogy for eSports - it's not. I was actually trying to point out that it's a poor analogy for skiing (which I agree is in turn, a poor analogy for eSports.)
On its own, in eSports, the nationality of the players is irrelevant to me. What really matters is the quality of the matches - a result of the complexity and depth of the game itself.
I don't really see how the skiing analogy is a bad one. You want to see high quality matches. In the Skiing analogy, the Norwegians are the Koreans and thus show the highest quality of competition. That's a pretty perfect analogy if you ask me, dead on.
It was a post showing that they have made rules and regulations that allow these other countries to be viable in their sport, which in turn improves the viewership of the sport in other countries. This analogy is saying "Hey, skiing was in a similar position where a ton of people do it but the competition is severely lopsided. Their rules and regulations have allowed other countries to fight for a pretty decent showing."
The problem is just that the vocal minority of the community can't get over the "I want to see good games, only the best" ideals. It's completely unreasonable and an unsustainable model. "NA players just need to get better" there's no opportunity for that to happen, I'd say that's probably a much more xenophobic mentality than the insulting accusation that those of us who want to see NA players in competition.
I don't give a single fuck if Koreans win every single tournament for the rest of SC2's existence as long as Blizzard puts in rules and regulations that allow for NA/EU/SEA/etc players to get to the point of competing. If no changes are made to even the playing field I'm going to lose a ton of interest and go back to just watching the pros I like, and I'd bet there are enough people like me to continue making a dent in the viewership. You "best games" guys have tournaments you can watch for that stuff. I don't understand why it's such this ungodly big deal when a tournament wants to cater strictly to NA pros or allow them a chance.
The problem is that 'only the best games' argument is one thing, but ridiculous oversaturation of Korean scene is another. How are you going to solve the oversaturation of Korean scene?
Why should we have to? The opportunity is there for them to come to NA or EU or SEA. Everyone expects foreign pros to migrate to Korea to get better, but nobody expects Korean pros to migrate elsewhere for opportunity. Give everyone the tools, let them use it how they'd like.
The specifics don't matter to me so much right now, I don't care if you make every league a little different in pay or number of players or any of that. I care that the option is there.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
Why does this always come up when this topic comes along. And always with the wrong conclusion. Since you are from Russia I'll assume you know what skiing is and have some grasp of that sport and use an example from the sport to explain this and what can be done to counteract it (it's also a very good sport to use since their situation is simular to korea and esports).
First some facts. Skiing has a international federation called FIS who sets all the rules for international competition. This organization exists solely to promote the sport. It does not seek to maximize gain short term but to promote the sport as a whole long term (this part is important especially for esport). The organization is run by previous active athlets and not corporations. Here's a link to their rules for international competition.
This is a growing sport that's been around for a long time and done the mistakes. It's also a sport with a very simular problem to esports. Norways is completely dominant as a nation. If there was no region locking and no limit of participation from different countries the top 10 of a world chamionship 2014 might look like this (I know there won't be a world championship next year).
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Norway 4. Russia 5. Norway 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Norway 9. Norway 10. Norway
And this is the top 10 in 5 years if this result list was ever allowed:
The international organization knows this and has put rules in place to limit Norway and other strong nations participation to make the competition more enjoyable to watch from people all over the world (as opposed to the result above who only norwegians would like). Because the goal of the organization is to grow the sport, not to promote Norway or norwegian athletes. So, every nation can only send 4 participants +1 slot for the reigning champion (follows the athlete not the country). So Norway usually has 5 participants, everyone else 4 or less. This gives Norway a little edge but nothing that will upset the competition too much. As a fan from Norway you can still look forward to a good championship where norwegians have a good chanse of winning. And a fan from every other country you can look forward to a championship where someone from your country _CAN_ win. Even Norway promotes these rules (and helped create them) because they realize that it's much more fun to be the champion in something people elsewhere care about as opposed to being the world champion in american football to take 1 example.
Despite this Norway has been dominating pretty badly again lately and the norwegians worry that this might diminish the interest in the sport globally and damage the sport. To try and counteract this they send some of their trainers to other countries to help them build up the competition.We'll see if it's enough or more action need to be taken to level the field.
This is how a professional sport works with these issues. Why is it so hard for esports to learn from them?? That is what i don't understand. Nothing we do creating these events is new except the media. When it comes to generating interest and "hype" there's over 100 years of history from other sports to learns from.
Here's a actual result from the last WC (2013) to give you and idea what these rules have ment for skiing.
Womens 10k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Russia 4. Germany 5. USA 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Finland 9. Norway 10. France
Men 15k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Canada 5. Norway 6. Sweden 7. Estonia 8. Switzerland 9. Germany 10. Sweden
It can be done guys.
Whoa, that's an awful analogy. Full disclosure: football is the only sport I follow these days. While the NFL tries to actively promote the sport overseas, I can assure the vast majority of the American public does not care whether or not it's watched internationally.
Taken a step further, if the game itself is intrinsically interesting, I don't think it matters where the competition comes from. That's how I feel about SC as well.
Spoken like a true American.
I think neither analogy is on point because of the eSports medium, if skiing is an awful analogy, NFL is just as much.
To be clear, I'm not asserting that NFL is a good analogy for eSports - it's not. I was actually trying to point out that it's a poor analogy for skiing (which I agree is in turn, a poor analogy for eSports.)
On its own, in eSports, the nationality of the players is irrelevant to me. What really matters is the quality of the matches - a result of the complexity and depth of the game itself.
I actually accept people with different ethnicity and beliefs. The only thing I care about is if the person has the skills and the dedication to strive for perfection.
For all the progressive ideology displayed by TL posters, majority seem to be bunch of Xenophobes in practice.
So, If I care more about people from my home town than someone I have never met on the other side of the world I'm a Xenophobe? I'm gonna assume you're just joking and ignore that point.
Now if you two want to be constructive you can try and explain what the big difference is between esports and other sports. Since you say that comparing to other sports is wrong because of a big difference it must be easy to state the difference, no? (I can't come up with a single difference)
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
Why does this always come up when this topic comes along. And always with the wrong conclusion. Since you are from Russia I'll assume you know what skiing is and have some grasp of that sport and use an example from the sport to explain this and what can be done to counteract it (it's also a very good sport to use since their situation is simular to korea and esports).
First some facts. Skiing has a international federation called FIS who sets all the rules for international competition. This organization exists solely to promote the sport. It does not seek to maximize gain short term but to promote the sport as a whole long term (this part is important especially for esport). The organization is run by previous active athlets and not corporations. Here's a link to their rules for international competition.
This is a growing sport that's been around for a long time and done the mistakes. It's also a sport with a very simular problem to esports. Norways is completely dominant as a nation. If there was no region locking and no limit of participation from different countries the top 10 of a world chamionship 2014 might look like this (I know there won't be a world championship next year).
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Norway 4. Russia 5. Norway 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Norway 9. Norway 10. Norway
And this is the top 10 in 5 years if this result list was ever allowed:
The international organization knows this and has put rules in place to limit Norway and other strong nations participation to make the competition more enjoyable to watch from people all over the world (as opposed to the result above who only norwegians would like). Because the goal of the organization is to grow the sport, not to promote Norway or norwegian athletes. So, every nation can only send 4 participants +1 slot for the reigning champion (follows the athlete not the country). So Norway usually has 5 participants, everyone else 4 or less. This gives Norway a little edge but nothing that will upset the competition too much. As a fan from Norway you can still look forward to a good championship where norwegians have a good chanse of winning. And a fan from every other country you can look forward to a championship where someone from your country _CAN_ win. Even Norway promotes these rules (and helped create them) because they realize that it's much more fun to be the champion in something people elsewhere care about as opposed to being the world champion in american football to take 1 example.
Despite this Norway has been dominating pretty badly again lately and the norwegians worry that this might diminish the interest in the sport globally and damage the sport. To try and counteract this they send some of their trainers to other countries to help them build up the competition.We'll see if it's enough or more action need to be taken to level the field.
This is how a professional sport works with these issues. Why is it so hard for esports to learn from them?? That is what i don't understand. Nothing we do creating these events is new except the media. When it comes to generating interest and "hype" there's over 100 years of history from other sports to learns from.
Here's a actual result from the last WC (2013) to give you and idea what these rules have ment for skiing.
Womens 10k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Russia 4. Germany 5. USA 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Finland 9. Norway 10. France
Men 15k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Canada 5. Norway 6. Sweden 7. Estonia 8. Switzerland 9. Germany 10. Sweden
It can be done guys.
Whoa, that's an awful analogy. Full disclosure: football is the only sport I follow these days. While the NFL tries to actively promote the sport overseas, I can assure the vast majority of the American public does not care whether or not it's watched internationally.
Taken a step further, if the game itself is intrinsically interesting, I don't think it matters where the competition comes from. That's how I feel about SC as well.
Spoken like a true American.
I think neither analogy is on point because of the eSports medium, if skiing is an awful analogy, NFL is just as much.
To be clear, I'm not asserting that NFL is a good analogy for eSports - it's not. I was actually trying to point out that it's a poor analogy for skiing (which I agree is in turn, a poor analogy for eSports.)
On its own, in eSports, the nationality of the players is irrelevant to me. What really matters is the quality of the matches - a result of the complexity and depth of the game itself.
I actually accept people with different ethnicity and beliefs. The only thing I care about is if the person has the skills and the dedication to strive for perfection.
For all the progressive ideology displayed by TL posters, majority seem to be bunch of Xenophobes in practice.
Its not about being xenophobic. Its about wanting the game to be played outside of south Korea. If there was no national regional soccer competition countries that aren't powerhouses would stop supporting their players or maybe the players would stop trying to play.
On October 02 2013 19:24 GizmoPT wrote: we need some savior of eSports
cute
suppose i'll put some content in this post. i'm actually interested to hear what else choya has to say on this whole shpiel. i never knew his involvement went so far beyond just being with FXO.
It confirms some suspicions I had about what happened in Korea too, basically the Kespa switch-over seemed like the worst thing to happen to the Korean scene.
Everyone wanted it because Kespa had all the sponsors (and fans) and there was a perception that BW was stiffling SC2's growth (in Korea).
But what ended up happening?
You had a sudden influx of players who just weren't motivated to play the game (look at the spate of retirements, after basically the first full contract year of them playing SC2). And even worse, they didn't actually bring the fans or sponsors over with them! That's practically the definition of oversaturation.
I think we could have seen the writing on the wall with the closure of 4(!) Kespa teams before the switch-over (5 if you include Air Force Ace) that Kespa wasn't wielding the big money anymore, at least not for BW/Starcraft 2. It's not like Kespa / Gom are oblivious to this either with their expansions into LoL and WoT.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
Why does this always come up when this topic comes along. And always with the wrong conclusion. Since you are from Russia I'll assume you know what skiing is and have some grasp of that sport and use an example from the sport to explain this and what can be done to counteract it (it's also a very good sport to use since their situation is simular to korea and esports).
First some facts. Skiing has a international federation called FIS who sets all the rules for international competition. This organization exists solely to promote the sport. It does not seek to maximize gain short term but to promote the sport as a whole long term (this part is important especially for esport). The organization is run by previous active athlets and not corporations. Here's a link to their rules for international competition.
This is a growing sport that's been around for a long time and done the mistakes. It's also a sport with a very simular problem to esports. Norways is completely dominant as a nation. If there was no region locking and no limit of participation from different countries the top 10 of a world chamionship 2014 might look like this (I know there won't be a world championship next year).
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Norway 4. Russia 5. Norway 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Norway 9. Norway 10. Norway
And this is the top 10 in 5 years if this result list was ever allowed:
The international organization knows this and has put rules in place to limit Norway and other strong nations participation to make the competition more enjoyable to watch from people all over the world (as opposed to the result above who only norwegians would like). Because the goal of the organization is to grow the sport, not to promote Norway or norwegian athletes. So, every nation can only send 4 participants +1 slot for the reigning champion (follows the athlete not the country). So Norway usually has 5 participants, everyone else 4 or less. This gives Norway a little edge but nothing that will upset the competition too much. As a fan from Norway you can still look forward to a good championship where norwegians have a good chanse of winning. And a fan from every other country you can look forward to a championship where someone from your country _CAN_ win. Even Norway promotes these rules (and helped create them) because they realize that it's much more fun to be the champion in something people elsewhere care about as opposed to being the world champion in american football to take 1 example.
Despite this Norway has been dominating pretty badly again lately and the norwegians worry that this might diminish the interest in the sport globally and damage the sport. To try and counteract this they send some of their trainers to other countries to help them build up the competition.We'll see if it's enough or more action need to be taken to level the field.
This is how a professional sport works with these issues. Why is it so hard for esports to learn from them?? That is what i don't understand. Nothing we do creating these events is new except the media. When it comes to generating interest and "hype" there's over 100 years of history from other sports to learns from.
Here's a actual result from the last WC (2013) to give you and idea what these rules have ment for skiing.
Womens 10k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Russia 4. Germany 5. USA 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Finland 9. Norway 10. France
Men 15k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Canada 5. Norway 6. Sweden 7. Estonia 8. Switzerland 9. Germany 10. Sweden
It can be done guys.
Whoa, that's an awful analogy. Full disclosure: football is the only sport I follow these days. While the NFL tries to actively promote the sport overseas, I can assure the vast majority of the American public does not care whether or not it's watched internationally.
Taken a step further, if the game itself is intrinsically interesting, I don't think it matters where the competition comes from. That's how I feel about SC as well.
Spoken like a true American.
I think neither analogy is on point because of the eSports medium, if skiing is an awful analogy, NFL is just as much.
To be clear, I'm not asserting that NFL is a good analogy for eSports - it's not. I was actually trying to point out that it's a poor analogy for skiing (which I agree is in turn, a poor analogy for eSports.)
On its own, in eSports, the nationality of the players is irrelevant to me. What really matters is the quality of the matches - a result of the complexity and depth of the game itself.
I actually accept people with different ethnicity and beliefs. The only thing I care about is if the person has the skills and the dedication to strive for perfection.
For all the progressive ideology displayed by TL posters, majority seem to be bunch of Xenophobes in practice.
So, If I care more about people from my home town than someone I have never met on the other side of the world I'm a Xenophobe? I'm gonna assume you're just joking and ignore that point.
Now if you two want to be constructive you can try and explain what the big difference is between esports and other sports. Since you say that comparing to other sports is wrong because of a big difference it must be easy to state the difference, no? (I can't come up with a single difference)
If you care more about the physical appearance of someone more than their ability and character you are a Xenophobe.
I don't know what you are referring to, I think you are trying to quote the person I quoted? It is pretty obvious that eSports is physically not demanding anything, only finger dexterity which more closer to playing piano than shooting a basketball. eSports can be played online. Real sports already have multitudes of branches that feed and help the professional scene thrive. ect.
On October 04 2013 00:13 Crytash wrote: If that is true, how many real sports do you support where s. Korea is bad in?
I'm a bigger supporter of the NFL than any eSports. Bought 2 season tickets in college and went to 2 NFL games. They are truly top physical/athletic specimens on the planet. I like hockey, there isn't any Koreans in the NHL. Went to numerous baseball games, there are like 5 Korean players in the MLB. Play basketball for vascular exercise, there aren't any Korean players in the NBA. Golf occasionally, Koreans aren't dominating in the PGA only the LPGA. Love UFC, only Benson Henderson is half Korean.
I love sports because of their show of skill and talent with a whiff of violence.
Well, if you live in the USA, those dominant sports don't count as well, right? :D You can easily identify with them, becouse you can actually visit the stadions.
He was looking for sports that I like that S. Koreans aren't dominant in.
On October 03 2013 02:27 Pirfiktshon wrote: The chances will be considerably higher if we actually allow them to compete in a tournament of 16 people and 4 from NA 4 From EU 4 From SEA and 4 From Kor.... They will have 0 chance if there is 0 of them right?
Edit: Ofcourse I'm referring to Blizzcon
You are treating this as completely random thing. Nowadays the only reliable way to get foreigner vs korean final or foreigner vs foreigner final is to SERIOUSLY limit amount of koreans participating compared to amount of players who are capable of winning at least Bo3 against them. How many players from SEA for example(they are great guys, but i doubt they will deny it) you know that can take Bo3 off HerO on a rather regular basis?
Why does this always come up when this topic comes along. And always with the wrong conclusion. Since you are from Russia I'll assume you know what skiing is and have some grasp of that sport and use an example from the sport to explain this and what can be done to counteract it (it's also a very good sport to use since their situation is simular to korea and esports).
First some facts. Skiing has a international federation called FIS who sets all the rules for international competition. This organization exists solely to promote the sport. It does not seek to maximize gain short term but to promote the sport as a whole long term (this part is important especially for esport). The organization is run by previous active athlets and not corporations. Here's a link to their rules for international competition.
This is a growing sport that's been around for a long time and done the mistakes. It's also a sport with a very simular problem to esports. Norways is completely dominant as a nation. If there was no region locking and no limit of participation from different countries the top 10 of a world chamionship 2014 might look like this (I know there won't be a world championship next year).
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Norway 4. Russia 5. Norway 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Norway 9. Norway 10. Norway
And this is the top 10 in 5 years if this result list was ever allowed:
The international organization knows this and has put rules in place to limit Norway and other strong nations participation to make the competition more enjoyable to watch from people all over the world (as opposed to the result above who only norwegians would like). Because the goal of the organization is to grow the sport, not to promote Norway or norwegian athletes. So, every nation can only send 4 participants +1 slot for the reigning champion (follows the athlete not the country). So Norway usually has 5 participants, everyone else 4 or less. This gives Norway a little edge but nothing that will upset the competition too much. As a fan from Norway you can still look forward to a good championship where norwegians have a good chanse of winning. And a fan from every other country you can look forward to a championship where someone from your country _CAN_ win. Even Norway promotes these rules (and helped create them) because they realize that it's much more fun to be the champion in something people elsewhere care about as opposed to being the world champion in american football to take 1 example.
Despite this Norway has been dominating pretty badly again lately and the norwegians worry that this might diminish the interest in the sport globally and damage the sport. To try and counteract this they send some of their trainers to other countries to help them build up the competition.We'll see if it's enough or more action need to be taken to level the field.
This is how a professional sport works with these issues. Why is it so hard for esports to learn from them?? That is what i don't understand. Nothing we do creating these events is new except the media. When it comes to generating interest and "hype" there's over 100 years of history from other sports to learns from.
Here's a actual result from the last WC (2013) to give you and idea what these rules have ment for skiing.
Womens 10k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Norway 3. Russia 4. Germany 5. USA 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Finland 9. Norway 10. France
Men 15k cross country freestyle:
1. Norway 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Canada 5. Norway 6. Sweden 7. Estonia 8. Switzerland 9. Germany 10. Sweden
It can be done guys.
Whoa, that's an awful analogy. Full disclosure: football is the only sport I follow these days. While the NFL tries to actively promote the sport overseas, I can assure the vast majority of the American public does not care whether or not it's watched internationally.
Taken a step further, if the game itself is intrinsically interesting, I don't think it matters where the competition comes from. That's how I feel about SC as well.
Spoken like a true American.
I think neither analogy is on point because of the eSports medium, if skiing is an awful analogy, NFL is just as much.
To be clear, I'm not asserting that NFL is a good analogy for eSports - it's not. I was actually trying to point out that it's a poor analogy for skiing (which I agree is in turn, a poor analogy for eSports.)
On its own, in eSports, the nationality of the players is irrelevant to me. What really matters is the quality of the matches - a result of the complexity and depth of the game itself.
I actually accept people with different ethnicity and beliefs. The only thing I care about is if the person has the skills and the dedication to strive for perfection.
For all the progressive ideology displayed by TL posters, majority seem to be bunch of Xenophobes in practice.
So, If I care more about people from my home town than someone I have never met on the other side of the world I'm a Xenophobe? I'm gonna assume you're just joking and ignore that point.
Now if you two want to be constructive you can try and explain what the big difference is between esports and other sports. Since you say that comparing to other sports is wrong because of a big difference it must be easy to state the difference, no? (I can't come up with a single difference)
If you care more about the physical appearance of someone more than their ability and character you are a Xenophobe.
I don't know what you are referring to, I think you are trying to quote the person I quoted? It is pretty obvious that eSports is physically not demanding anything, only finger dexterity which more closer to playing piano than shooting a basketball. eSports can be played online. Real sports already have multitudes of branches that feed and help the professional scene thrive. ect.
On October 04 2013 00:13 Crytash wrote: If that is true, how many real sports do you support where s. Korea is bad in?
I'm a bigger supporter of the NFL than any eSports. Bought 2 season tickets in college and went to 2 NFL games. They are truly top physical/athletic specimens on the planet. I like hockey, there isn't any Koreans in the NHL. Went to numerous baseball games, there are like 5 Korean players in the MLB. Play basketball for vascular exercise, there aren't any Korean players in the NBA. Golf occasionally, Koreans aren't dominating in the PGA only the LPGA. Love UFC, only Benson Henderson is half Korean.
I love sports because of their show of skill and talent with a whiff of violence.
Well, if you live in the USA, those dominant sports don't count as well, right? :D You can easily identify with them, becouse you can actually visit the stadions.
He was looking for sports that I like that S. Koreans aren't dominant in.
I think that the bolded point is important to emphasize. Anyone calling anyone else a xenophobe does not know the reason some of us are advocating for one option over the other. I don't think the term can be proven to fit anyone speaking in this thread and don't think it has a place in the conversation. I don't think anyone is arguing for koreans to be outcast and treated poorly. I think we're arguing for a better situation that treats everyone relatively equal. Most of us are even offering ideas and suggestions that put "people that look like me" in an overall disadvantageous spot simply so they have an opportunity to grow.
I think WCS might have helped many SC2 players instead of hindering them.
Imagine that WCS was not being in place, there will be many players forced to retire due to being stuck in Korea with the arrival of Kespa. This forced them to move out and seek more opportunities.
"We respect FXO's decision, and we are grateful for all their support . Even before FXO's sponsorship, I ran the team with my personal funds and funds from team league. There will be no problem in continuing to operate the team."
Choya is a true hero. Saving his team will definitely help save esports.
I actually consider WCS KR (ie GSL/OSL) a much more interesting tournament to watch than WCS Season finals.
For what it's worth, WCS NA and WCS EU is simply Koreans fighting Koreans and lag. Thing is, they then all get lumped together for a what is supposedly a "huge" seasonal finals. But it's anticlimactic in that the Koreans who played in NA and EU didn't have to work as hard as those from WCS KR. They're not bad (Taeja? JD? they're FAR from bad) but they didn't have to go through the same grueling competition as their WCS KR counterparts. So, as Fionn mentioned, WCS seasonal finals is basically a boring version of WCS KR where 2/3 of the players in that tournament simply bashed foreigners to get there. The last third "already had" their prestigious tournament and having another one back to back just doesn't make sense.
The thing is, if WCS were region locked, no one would care about WCS NA. As for WCS EU .. well I guess it might be interesting? I don't know, I don't follow the European players at all. Everyone would watch WCS KR and afterwards, in the seasonal finals, WCS KR would just crush the other two regions (minus a couple of excellent foreigners who might make a nice run).
If we're speaking purely of how interesting a tournament is, WCS is pretty uninteresting and flawed.
Blizzard had the good sense to try to inject some vitality into the scene but the way they tried to do that had more negative repercussions than anything else. I remember pre-WCS SC2 was already pretty good to watch. I don't know why they wanted to fix something that wasn't broken. If anything needed fixing, it was the game's design. They had a shot to do so in HOTS but many of the underlying flaws are still there.
On October 04 2013 17:34 Incognoto wrote: I actually consider WCS KR (ie GSL/OSL) a much more interesting tournament to watch than WCS Season finals.
For what it's worth, WCS NA and WCS EU is simply Koreans fighting Koreans and lag. Thing is, they then all get lumped together for a what is supposedly a "huge" seasonal finals. But it's anticlimactic in that the Koreans who played in NA and EU didn't have to work as hard as those from WCS KR. They're not bad (Taeja? JD? they're FAR from bad) but they didn't have to go through the same grueling competition as their WCS KR counterparts. So, as Fionn mentioned, WCS seasonal finals is basically a boring version of WCS KR where 2/3 of the players in that tournament simply bashed foreigners to get there. The last third "already had" their prestigious tournament and having another one back to back just doesn't make sense.
The thing is, if WCS were region locked, no one would care about WCS NA. As for WCS EU .. well I guess it might be interesting? I don't know, I don't follow the European players at all. Everyone would watch WCS KR and afterwards, in the seasonal finals, WCS KR would just crush the other two regions (minus a couple of excellent foreigners who might make a nice run).
If we're speaking purely of how interesting a tournament is, WCS is pretty uninteresting and flawed.
Blizzard had the good sense to try to inject some vitality into the scene but the way they tried to do that had more negative repercussions than anything else. I remember pre-WCS SC2 was already pretty good to watch. I don't know why they wanted to fix something that wasn't broken. If anything needed fixing, it was the game's design. They had a shot to do so in HOTS but many of the underlying flaws are still there.
They ruined the prestige of the GSL/OSL, which is my main reason for disliking the system. Now several of the top Korean players don't participate in that tournament, and the winner will have to prove himself a week after in an inferior tournament for his title to be meaningful. People talked about Innovation, not Soulkey after the WCS S1 finals. Soulkey winning the GSL was easily forgotten.
On October 04 2013 17:34 Incognoto wrote: I actually consider WCS KR (ie GSL/OSL) a much more interesting tournament to watch than WCS Season finals.
For what it's worth, WCS NA and WCS EU is simply Koreans fighting Koreans and lag. Thing is, they then all get lumped together for a what is supposedly a "huge" seasonal finals. But it's anticlimactic in that the Koreans who played in NA and EU didn't have to work as hard as those from WCS KR. They're not bad (Taeja? JD? they're FAR from bad) but they didn't have to go through the same grueling competition as their WCS KR counterparts. So, as Fionn mentioned, WCS seasonal finals is basically a boring version of WCS KR where 2/3 of the players in that tournament simply bashed foreigners to get there. The last third "already had" their prestigious tournament and having another one back to back just doesn't make sense.
The thing is, if WCS were region locked, no one would care about WCS NA. As for WCS EU .. well I guess it might be interesting? I don't know, I don't follow the European players at all. Everyone would watch WCS KR and afterwards, in the seasonal finals, WCS KR would just crush the other two regions (minus a couple of excellent foreigners who might make a nice run).
If we're speaking purely of how interesting a tournament is, WCS is pretty uninteresting and flawed.
Blizzard had the good sense to try to inject some vitality into the scene but the way they tried to do that had more negative repercussions than anything else. I remember pre-WCS SC2 was already pretty good to watch. I don't know why they wanted to fix something that wasn't broken. If anything needed fixing, it was the game's design. They had a shot to do so in HOTS but many of the underlying flaws are still there.
They ruined the prestige of the GSL/OSL, which is my main reason for disliking the system. Now several of the top Korean players don't participate in that tournament, and the winner will have to prove himself a week after in an inferior tournament for his title to be meaningful. People talked about Innovation, not Soulkey after the WCS S1 finals. Soulkey winning the GSL was easily forgotten.
thats because Innovation lost the final and not Soulkey won it lol He just had a chance to prove himself right after.
And no one is more forgotten than Maru and Bomber our S2 champions XD
On October 04 2013 17:34 Incognoto wrote: I actually consider WCS KR (ie GSL/OSL) a much more interesting tournament to watch than WCS Season finals.
For what it's worth, WCS NA and WCS EU is simply Koreans fighting Koreans and lag. Thing is, they then all get lumped together for a what is supposedly a "huge" seasonal finals. But it's anticlimactic in that the Koreans who played in NA and EU didn't have to work as hard as those from WCS KR. They're not bad (Taeja? JD? they're FAR from bad) but they didn't have to go through the same grueling competition as their WCS KR counterparts. So, as Fionn mentioned, WCS seasonal finals is basically a boring version of WCS KR where 2/3 of the players in that tournament simply bashed foreigners to get there. The last third "already had" their prestigious tournament and having another one back to back just doesn't make sense.
The thing is, if WCS were region locked, no one would care about WCS NA. As for WCS EU .. well I guess it might be interesting? I don't know, I don't follow the European players at all. Everyone would watch WCS KR and afterwards, in the seasonal finals, WCS KR would just crush the other two regions (minus a couple of excellent foreigners who might make a nice run).
If we're speaking purely of how interesting a tournament is, WCS is pretty uninteresting and flawed.
Blizzard had the good sense to try to inject some vitality into the scene but the way they tried to do that had more negative repercussions than anything else. I remember pre-WCS SC2 was already pretty good to watch. I don't know why they wanted to fix something that wasn't broken. If anything needed fixing, it was the game's design. They had a shot to do so in HOTS but many of the underlying flaws are still there.
They ruined the prestige of the GSL/OSL, which is my main reason for disliking the system. Now several of the top Korean players don't participate in that tournament, and the winner will have to prove himself a week after in an inferior tournament for his title to be meaningful. People talked about Innovation, not Soulkey after the WCS S1 finals. Soulkey winning the GSL was easily forgotten.
Exactly. It's stupid to have two prestigious tournaments back to back like that. And WCS grand finals aren't even that interesting at all. WCS KR is built up over the course of a month where players have time to prepare, time to practice and you really do see the highest possible level of play.
WCS grand finals is a blurp over the weekend where those who lost in WCS KR are given a second chance for no reason. It's insulting to GSL/OSL really.
I agree with Incognoto , in my opinion the beating heart of Starcraft is Korea, and I think Blizzard has made a huge tactical mistake by supporting EU and AM so much.
The best players in the world are in Korea and all they have done is diluted its player base by fragmenting it across the world. Starcraft 2 has lived off its older brother reputation for 3 years now and now that Broodwar no longer has OSL, it has to fight on its own reputation
The “big 3” Broodwar players have been shown to be mortal, and people are questioning why? Is the skill cap to low, is it too fast, why no small engagements on the map but just big deathballs etc?
If the heart dies the body usually dies shortly afterwards unless a heart transplant is performed, who will be the donor America or Europe I wonder
Somehow the scene needs to survive this, but how? Will Blizzard keep pumping in money and hope they get lucky, redesign the game perhaps, or will they make a huge decision and simply pull out altogether.
On October 04 2013 18:07 Topdoller wrote: I agree with Incognoto , in my opinion the beating heart of Starcraft is Korea, and I think Blizzard has made a huge tactical mistake by supporting EU and AM so much.
The best players in the world are in Korea and all they have done is diluted its player base by fragmenting it across the world. Starcraft 2 has lived off its older brother reputation for 3 years now and now that Broodwar no longer has OSL, it has to fight on its own reputation
The “big 3” Broodwar players have been shown to be mortal, and people are questioning why? Is the skill cap to low, is it too fast, why no small engagements on the map but just big deathballs etc?
If the heart dies the body usually dies shortly afterwards unless a heart transplant is performed, who will be the donor America or Europe I wonder
Somehow the scene needs to survive this, but how? Will Blizzard keep pumping in money and hope they get lucky, redesign the game perhaps, or will they make a huge decision and simply pull out altogether.
Problem is, SC2 didn't do bad in Korea because Blizzard supported EU and AM too much. The Korean public just didn't like the game as much as they did for BW. Obviously, a lot of factors are in play like the BW vs SC2 issue, LoL, gameplay, etc, etc.
On October 04 2013 17:34 Incognoto wrote: I actually consider WCS KR (ie GSL/OSL) a much more interesting tournament to watch than WCS Season finals.
For what it's worth, WCS NA and WCS EU is simply Koreans fighting Koreans and lag. Thing is, they then all get lumped together for a what is supposedly a "huge" seasonal finals. But it's anticlimactic in that the Koreans who played in NA and EU didn't have to work as hard as those from WCS KR. They're not bad (Taeja? JD? they're FAR from bad) but they didn't have to go through the same grueling competition as their WCS KR counterparts. So, as Fionn mentioned, WCS seasonal finals is basically a boring version of WCS KR where 2/3 of the players in that tournament simply bashed foreigners to get there. The last third "already had" their prestigious tournament and having another one back to back just doesn't make sense.
The thing is, if WCS were region locked, no one would care about WCS NA. As for WCS EU .. well I guess it might be interesting? I don't know, I don't follow the European players at all. Everyone would watch WCS KR and afterwards, in the seasonal finals, WCS KR would just crush the other two regions (minus a couple of excellent foreigners who might make a nice run).
If we're speaking purely of how interesting a tournament is, WCS is pretty uninteresting and flawed.
Blizzard had the good sense to try to inject some vitality into the scene but the way they tried to do that had more negative repercussions than anything else. I remember pre-WCS SC2 was already pretty good to watch. I don't know why they wanted to fix something that wasn't broken. If anything needed fixing, it was the game's design. They had a shot to do so in HOTS but many of the underlying flaws are still there.
This bolded comment is brought up all the time and as the token guy to respond to it I'll say the same honest thing I say every time I see it:
Region locking would not affect the amount of time I spend watching KR games in the least. It would increase the amount of time I would watch NA and EU games. I don't think I'm in the minority, I think I'm in the minority of outspoken viewers, but I think that the amount of people who would love to watch NA based players (Korean or otherwise) compete with other NA based players, EU based players (Korean or otherwise) compete with other EU based players is very close to equal.
Don't underestimate the value of something because it's not what you want to see. I mean no malice with this statement, but I feel like it's an incredibly common statement from the more vocal individuals when there is no proof to it. The only purely NA tournament in the past 2 years that had any sort of viewership was shoutcraft and that did exceptionally well considering it had to wrap itself around WCS in some kind of crazy contortion just to allow it to be played. I think at the very least it's an experiment that deserves a season's chance to be successful.
On October 02 2013 19:24 GizmoPT wrote: we need some savior of eSports
We need some (up)magic and go(go) through this tough time or we'll not have the luxury to enjoy SC2 in Korea anymore.
Are they banned for EGF, too or only KESPA?
Broodwar rising lately, which I like, but thats also not good for SC2 and Starcraft in general maybe which is dangerous.
When there was a rumor that Savior was going to try out for GSL, Gom said they were going to honor Kespa's ban, so I assume they meant all of those guys are out too.
On October 04 2013 18:07 Topdoller wrote: I agree with Incognoto , in my opinion the beating heart of Starcraft is Korea, and I think Blizzard has made a huge tactical mistake by supporting EU and AM so much.
The best players in the world are in Korea and all they have done is diluted its player base by fragmenting it across the world. Starcraft 2 has lived off its older brother reputation for 3 years now and now that Broodwar no longer has OSL, it has to fight on its own reputation
The “big 3” Broodwar players have been shown to be mortal, and people are questioning why? Is the skill cap to low, is it too fast, why no small engagements on the map but just big deathballs etc?
If the heart dies the body usually dies shortly afterwards unless a heart transplant is performed, who will be the donor America or Europe I wonder
Somehow the scene needs to survive this, but how? Will Blizzard keep pumping in money and hope they get lucky, redesign the game perhaps, or will they make a huge decision and simply pull out altogether.
Problem is, SC2 didn't do bad in Korea because Blizzard supported EU and AM too much. The Korean public just didn't like the game as much as they did for BW. Obviously, a lot of factors are in play like the BW vs SC2 issue, LoL, gameplay, etc, etc.
Right, Korea didn't take to SC2 for a variety of reasons and it's unlikely that Blizzard would really take to accepting SC2 being like BW (as in, only big in S. Korea) as a success anyways. So not ignoring NA / EU is the right move.
Afterall, world-wide WC3 was already a much bigger deal than BW, so it's not like Blizzard has to settle for SC2 being only played in 1 country.
On October 02 2013 19:25 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I agree with Choya. The WCS system is terrible.
This, I've pretty much stopped watching sc2 because of WCS.
+1
The WCS is terrible. I don't know anyone who is actually a fan of it. People will watch it. Hell, it's the only thing to watch on most night that involves some of the better know players. The problem is that it strangles everything else. I've stopped playing and watching a lot of SC2. Every now and then, I'll catch some GOM when I can or that team tournament that EG runs. Other than that, SC2 is dead to me.
On October 02 2013 19:25 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I agree with Choya. The WCS system is terrible.
This, I've pretty much stopped watching sc2 because of WCS.
+1
The WCS is terrible. I don't know anyone who is actually a fan of it. People will watch it. Hell, it's the only thing to watch on most night that involves some of the better know players. The problem is that it strangles everything else. I've stopped playing and watching a lot of SC2. Every now and then, I'll catch some GOM when I can or that team tournament that EG runs. Other than that, SC2 is dead to me.
On October 02 2013 19:25 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I agree with Choya. The WCS system is terrible.
This, I've pretty much stopped watching sc2 because of WCS.
+1
The WCS is terrible. I don't know anyone who is actually a fan of it. People will watch it. Hell, it's the only thing to watch on most night that involves some of the better know players. The problem is that it strangles everything else. I've stopped playing and watching a lot of SC2. Every now and then, I'll catch some GOM when I can or that team tournament that EG runs. Other than that, SC2 is dead to me.
What makes you dislike it or is it only the fact that it reduces other content?
On October 02 2013 21:04 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think it's to late though. The WCS sprayed their stink onto the market and made sc2 one of the Least watched eSports
Why do people say things like this? The game isn't on LoL or DOTA2's level, but it generally is right there, at #3 on Twitch most of the time. And the viewer drop off after SC2 is crazy. If you say SC2 is dead I don't know what you say about every game that isn't LoL or DOTA2...
On October 02 2013 21:04 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think it's to late though. The WCS sprayed their stink onto the market and made sc2 one of the Least watched eSports
Why do people say things like this? The game isn't on LoL or DOTA2's level, but it generally is right there, at #3 on Twitch most of the time. And the viewer drop off after SC2 is crazy. If you say SC2 is dead I don't know what you say about every game that isn't LoL or DOTA2...
From expectation standpoint, SC2's irreversible downturn indeed comes too soon. Everybody expected SC2 won't drop off so quickly from contending position of e-sports crown, even BW elitists who hate SC2 didn't expect it to happen so quickly. From the look of it, future SC2 scene will at best be like WC3, considering WC3 scene wasn't dominated by one country.
What kills it for me is a convoluted format that really isn't all that exciting and that it chokes out other stuff. I also really don't understand why it runs all year long and isn't region-locked. The old WCS was pretty cool. Even the Artosis-coached team in the old team world tournament had some good moments. What they have going now simply does not excite me. Maybe part of it is that SC2 is becoming stale to me.
On October 02 2013 21:04 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think it's to late though. The WCS sprayed their stink onto the market and made sc2 one of the Least watched eSports
Why do people say things like this? The game isn't on LoL or DOTA2's level, but it generally is right there, at #3 on Twitch most of the time. And the viewer drop off after SC2 is crazy. If you say SC2 is dead I don't know what you say about every game that isn't LoL or DOTA2...
From expectation standpoint, SC2's irreversible downturn indeed comes too soon. Everybody expected SC2 won't drop off so quickly from contending position of e-sports crown, even BW elitists who hate SC2 didn't expect it to happen so quickly. From the look of it, future SC2 scene will at best be like WC3, considering WC3 scene wasn't dominated by one country.
Wasn't the old WC3 scene world-wide bigger than BW? I seem to remember they had regular leagues in Germany and China and quite a following in S. Korea too. If that's where SC2 stabilizes to, I don't see that as a bad thing.
But you're right about expectations, LoL has been gaining on SC2 for a long time now, I think popularity wise it overtook SC2 towards the end of WoL, which probably shocked a lot of TL-ers. The fact that HoTS wasn't able to reverse the trend jsut makes people more pessimistic. I think if LoL / DotA 2 wasn't around then half the doom around here would disappear.
On October 04 2013 17:34 Incognoto wrote: I actually consider WCS KR (ie GSL/OSL) a much more interesting tournament to watch than WCS Season finals.
For what it's worth, WCS NA and WCS EU is simply Koreans fighting Koreans and lag. Thing is, they then all get lumped together for a what is supposedly a "huge" seasonal finals. But it's anticlimactic in that the Koreans who played in NA and EU didn't have to work as hard as those from WCS KR. They're not bad (Taeja? JD? they're FAR from bad) but they didn't have to go through the same grueling competition as their WCS KR counterparts. So, as Fionn mentioned, WCS seasonal finals is basically a boring version of WCS KR where 2/3 of the players in that tournament simply bashed foreigners to get there. The last third "already had" their prestigious tournament and having another one back to back just doesn't make sense.
The thing is, if WCS were region locked, no one would care about WCS NA. As for WCS EU .. well I guess it might be interesting? I don't know, I don't follow the European players at all. Everyone would watch WCS KR and afterwards, in the seasonal finals, WCS KR would just crush the other two regions (minus a couple of excellent foreigners who might make a nice run).
If we're speaking purely of how interesting a tournament is, WCS is pretty uninteresting and flawed.
Blizzard had the good sense to try to inject some vitality into the scene but the way they tried to do that had more negative repercussions than anything else. I remember pre-WCS SC2 was already pretty good to watch. I don't know why they wanted to fix something that wasn't broken. If anything needed fixing, it was the game's design. They had a shot to do so in HOTS but many of the underlying flaws are still there.
This bolded comment is brought up all the time and as the token guy to respond to it I'll say the same honest thing I say every time I see it:
Region locking would not affect the amount of time I spend watching KR games in the least. It would increase the amount of time I would watch NA and EU games. I don't think I'm in the minority, I think I'm in the minority of outspoken viewers, but I think that the amount of people who would love to watch NA based players (Korean or otherwise) compete with other NA based players, EU based players (Korean or otherwise) compete with other EU based players is very close to equal.
Don't underestimate the value of something because it's not what you want to see. I mean no malice with this statement, but I feel like it's an incredibly common statement from the more vocal individuals when there is no proof to it. The only purely NA tournament in the past 2 years that had any sort of viewership was shoutcraft and that did exceptionally well considering it had to wrap itself around WCS in some kind of crazy contortion just to allow it to be played. I think at the very least it's an experiment that deserves a season's chance to be successful.
Yeah I agree shoutcraft was pretty nice. Maybe you're right, maybe I'm wrong. I guess there's no way to be sure, mostly because this is speculation on my part. That said, why wasn't there another shoutcraft after the first one? I think it's possible that one of the reasons shoutcraft worked out the way it did was because it was literally the only NA-only tournament. That got people curious because it was the only tournament that would feature only players from NA. However, if you have this exclusive tournament be a series of tournaments, will people really watched prolonged NA-only SC? The first time was interesting because of how unique it was. Take away that uniqueness by making the tournament regular, maybe it won't draw as much of an audience.
That's why I feel WCS in general is kind of doomed to fail, region lock or not. If it's region locked, people lose interest because of the disparity between the level of play between each region (ie WCS grand finals become boring as fuck). If it isn't region locked, like right now, then people whine about how Koreans are murdering foreigners and taking their spots.
I could be wrong obviously but I really feel that WCS does more harm than good.
kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014.... why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players? i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on.... for how long... only time will tell...
On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote: kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014.... why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players? i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on.... for how long... only time will tell...
With their current level of play as compared to top koreans who are dominating the game? Who would watch these amateurs? lol
About tournaments: WCS is the main problem. No MLG and NASL anymore. Redbull only do 8man invite tournaments.
My suggestion: WCS is region locked and no Season Grandfinals ( S1 Inno, S2 Bomber) anymore. Korea has GSL and WCS (they deserve two of it). For Blizzcon (32man): if all season ends (s1, s2, s3) from each region the top4 (from wcs points) are already qualified for blizzcon and the top36 (top36 - top4 = 32 from each region = 32*3= 96), they play like a 96man qualifier for the other 20 places (this makes possible that all 20 are from korea). No WCS tier1&2 anymore, this is super terrible. If you need wcs points, do it only at wcs.
Prizepool must be better. 1st=30k, 2nd 15k, 3/4 10k. 5-8th 5k. Additional the top32 get 2,5k as "entrance bonus".
On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote: kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014.... why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players? i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on.... for how long... only time will tell...
With their current level of play as compared to top koreans who are dominating the game? Who would watch these amateurs? lol
The same people that have been subsidizing incredibly arrogant Korean players for 3 years now while these guys never really made the effort to interact with the foreign scene.
On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote: kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014.... why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players? i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on.... for how long... only time will tell...
With their current level of play as compared to top koreans who are dominating the game? Who would watch these amateurs? lol
The same people that have been subsidizing incredibly arrogant Korean players for 3 years now while these guys never really made the effort to interact with the foreign scene.
You have problems with arrogant players?
It's okay to be arrogant as long as you have the skills to back it up.
On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote: kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014.... why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players? i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on.... for how long... only time will tell...
With their current level of play as compared to top koreans who are dominating the game? Who would watch these amateurs? lol
The same people that have been subsidizing incredibly arrogant Korean players for 3 years now while these guys never really made the effort to interact with the foreign scene.
You have problems with arrogant players?
It's okay to be arrogant as long as you have the skills to back it up.
And it's okay to not be arrogant if you do not have the skill to back it up :D
On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote: kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014.... why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players? i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on.... for how long... only time will tell...
With their current level of play as compared to top koreans who are dominating the game? Who would watch these amateurs? lol
The same people that have been subsidizing incredibly arrogant Korean players for 3 years now while these guys never really made the effort to interact with the foreign scene.
You have problems with arrogant players?
It's okay to be arrogant as long as you have the skills to back it up.
And it's okay to not be arrogant if you do not have the skill to back it up :D
That's like saying it's not okay to not be arrogant even if you have the skills to back it up
On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote: kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014.... why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players? i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on.... for how long... only time will tell...
With their current level of play as compared to top koreans who are dominating the game? Who would watch these amateurs? lol
The same people that have been subsidizing incredibly arrogant Korean players for 3 years now while these guys never really made the effort to interact with the foreign scene.
You have problems with arrogant players?
It's okay to be arrogant as long as you have the skills to back it up.
And it's okay to not be arrogant if you do not have the skill to back it up :D
That's like saying it's not okay to not be arrogant even if you have the skills to back it up
Even if you have the skills to back it up, you need the marketing base to make it worth it for everyone. From FXOBoSs's blog, there appears to be disconnect between the Korean player's perception of their own marketability.
The long and short of the blog is that Korean SC2 players are not used are not used to having to compete for the lime light in the Esports scene and are unwilling to go through efforts to make themselves marketable. He also disputes the claim that WCS is hurting SC2 in Korea and focuses more on the event runners.
It is an interesting perspective and one that does not heap blame on WCS when there is plenty of it to go around, from GOM, to OGN to the players themselves. It is a complex issue and something that can't be solved by just blaming WCS or claiming that it would all be ok if they brought BW back.
When people talk about the popularity of SC2, something that is frequently said is that games that do not adopt the f2p model simply becomes less popular. But, games made by blizzard always sell well. Why is not one questioning something like, why isn't the game even retaining the bulk of the players who already bought this game before blaming the non f2p model?
At the same time, tournaments can only build on a good game. I don't see how a bad tournament can ever kill a game if it's genuinely good. People will always continue playing it and be interested to watch games because they can relate to it, irregardless of how terrible the tournament organisation is. It's probably true that a good tournament can bring in additional viewers. But, isn't it a more fundamental problem if you're losing spectators?
On October 06 2013 15:05 Luppy1 wrote: When people talk about the popularity of SC2, something that is frequently said is that games that do not adopt the f2p model simply becomes less popular. But, games made by blizzard always sell well. Why is not one questioning something like, why isn't the game even retaining the bulk of the players who already bought this game before blaming the non f2p model?
At the same time, tournaments can only build on a good game. I don't see how a bad tournament can ever kill a game if it's genuinely good. People will always continue playing it and be interested to watch games because they can relate to it, irregardless of how terrible the tournament organisation is. It's probably true that a good tournament can bring in additional viewers. But, isn't it a more fundamental problem if you're losing spectators?
To an extent, you're correct. The game is boring or stale. Sometimes the execution can be interesting or even amazing, but I only tend to see that kind of innovative play in team matches. It seems the bulk of the big tournaments are geared to 1v1 matches instead of team matches. I
On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote: kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports
Did not kespa tried it's best to get a nice grave yard for sc2 back to the times of WoL release?
before and on wol was out, we all know blizzard's "intervention" on kespa blizzard nailed two on the coffin...
nowadays, we can see kespa trying to save kr sc2 scene. back to start...
nevertheless, they acknowledge that marketing sc2 is........................................
If trying to prevent a release and later trying to take over by force and then bailing out after failing to do so is saving. Then I don't want to know what would happen if they tried to kill Sc2 haha.
Sigh I found it funny at WoL release that they dug their own grave, but didn't expected they would take Sc2 in Korea along with them. Guess its like a balance patch, even if its still good if it got nerfed people avoid it or in that case korean sponsors.
On the bright side, BW is slowly coming back since Kespa has put their sights onto LoL. So maybe Sc2 will blossom as well once they are completely out of it, but it seems like they understand now that you need to stick with multiple games.
I also feel that the WCS system has made the scene way less interesting. You used to be able to look forward to these big tournaments with high price money and also watch the smaller ones with local talent. Nowadays I feel there is just a big mash with WCS constantly being played be it qualifiers in EU och NA. Good thing GSL is still the same time, even though for some stupid reason, that is also called WCS now.
On October 02 2013 19:25 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I agree with Choya. The WCS system is terrible.
This, I've pretty much stopped watching sc2 because of WCS.
+1
The WCS is terrible. I don't know anyone who is actually a fan of it. People will watch it. Hell, it's the only thing to watch on most night that involves some of the better know players. The problem is that it strangles everything else. I've stopped playing and watching a lot of SC2. Every now and then, I'll catch some GOM when I can or that team tournament that EG runs. Other than that, SC2 is dead to me.
I like it coz i only started watching sc again since bw days. Never followed anything else of sc. Wcs europe casters were very good in introducing the game the history etc. Best to watch since east v west element is there.
On October 02 2013 19:25 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I agree with Choya. The WCS system is terrible.
This, I've pretty much stopped watching sc2 because of WCS.
I also like the tournament landscape before. I watch GSL as the only weekly tournament, were all the big people rock the maps And MLG and DH for Weekend clashes
On October 02 2013 19:25 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I agree with Choya. The WCS system is terrible.
This, I've pretty much stopped watching sc2 because of WCS.
+1
The WCS is terrible. I don't know anyone who is actually a fan of it. People will watch it. Hell, it's the only thing to watch on most night that involves some of the better know players. The problem is that it strangles everything else. I've stopped playing and watching a lot of SC2. Every now and then, I'll catch some GOM when I can or that team tournament that EG runs. Other than that, SC2 is dead to me.
I love the WCS, I've never seen so many up and coming players in Europe as right now. Most of them have been here for a long time, but they lacked the opportunity to climb up the competitive scene WCS gave them last year. I hope this will continue next year!!! :D
Wow, back when WCS was announced there was a lot of positive feedback and "this will save SC2" posts abound. There were also comparisons to LoL's world championships and that this type of tournament was needed for the scene.
Flashforward to now and there is a lot of gripe about the WCS being bad for SC2.... when in fact its very format and structure was barely changed from when it was announced. It's not like we weren't prepared for it... Blizzard layed it all out in front of us from day one.
On October 08 2013 08:33 e4e5nf3 wrote: Wow, back when WCS was announced there was a lot of positive feedback and "this will save SC2" posts abound. There were also comparisons to LoL's world championships and that this type of tournament was needed for the scene.
Flashforward to now and there is a lot of gripe about the WCS being bad for SC2.... when in fact its very format and structure was barely changed from when it was announced. It's not like we weren't prepared for it... Blizzard layed it all out in front of us from day one.
It has nothing to do with SC2. Even at the high of BW, there were only 12 major teams. SC2 is not as big as BW, yet there are way to many Korean teams and players and a lot of them are not good enough to be professionals.
That comes down to the structure though. Technically anyone can call themselves professional gamers these days. Back then, you either were or weren't. These days it's a gray area.
On October 08 2013 08:43 StarStruck wrote: That comes down to the structure though. Technically anyone can call themselves professional gamers these days. Back then, you either were or weren't. These days it's a gray area.
Any player could retire from SC2 tomorrow and right a heart felt blog about their struggles as a "professional" but now I must move on and be an adult. I am sure some people would blame it on SC2, Blizzard and WCS. The simple fact of the matter is that there are to many players calling themselves "pros" in Korea.
On October 08 2013 08:33 e4e5nf3 wrote: Wow, back when WCS was announced there was a lot of positive feedback and "this will save SC2" posts abound. There were also comparisons to LoL's world championships and that this type of tournament was needed for the scene.
Flashforward to now and there is a lot of gripe about the WCS being bad for SC2.... when in fact its very format and structure was barely changed from when it was announced. It's not like we weren't prepared for it... Blizzard layed it all out in front of us from day one.
It has nothing to do with SC2. Even at the high of BW, there were only 12 major teams. SC2 is not as big as BW, yet there are way to many Korean teams and players and a lot of them are not good enough to be professionals.
sc2 is substantially larger than BW ever was, and its an international scene, of which most pros have remained a part of making less than minimum wage for years. Its collapse is because you cant even make that anymore. Its WCS/declining popularity, and obviously personal distaste on the part of some switched over kespa players. Not an inflated player base.
On October 08 2013 08:33 e4e5nf3 wrote: Wow, back when WCS was announced there was a lot of positive feedback and "this will save SC2" posts abound. There were also comparisons to LoL's world championships and that this type of tournament was needed for the scene.
Flashforward to now and there is a lot of gripe about the WCS being bad for SC2.... when in fact its very format and structure was barely changed from when it was announced. It's not like we weren't prepared for it... Blizzard layed it all out in front of us from day one.
It has nothing to do with SC2. Even at the high of BW, there were only 12 major teams. SC2 is not as big as BW, yet there are way to many Korean teams and players and a lot of them are not good enough to be professionals.
sc2 is substantially larger than BW ever was, and its an international scene, of which most pros have remained a part of making less than minimum wage for years. Its collapse is because you cant even make that anymore. Its WCS/declining popularity, and obviously personal distaste on the part of some switched over kespa players. Not an inflated player base.
Yet there are more Korean pros retiring than NA and EU combined. The Korea player base is super inflated and the numbers back that up. FXOBoss's blog backs it up too, along with the idea that the players overvalue themselves.
The only bad thing about WCS is it downsizing GSL from 5 to 2 (technically 3 this year but 1 of them wasn't considered WCS) and OSL from 2 to 1. Not only that, prize money got cut as well.
Of course, you can argue that GSL and/or OSL would have potentially downsized too, even without WCS.
That's very valid and it happened before with GSL (2012 had much less than 2011 for example). Plus, OSL potentially was going to stop doing SC2 period. Though I think if fewer tournaments, the prize money probably would have stayed the same.
About the season finals, technically the WCS system was outside of GSL and stuff, so Koreans can participate in GSL, OSL, and WCS (and since WCS was separate at the same time, more money). Of course you can argue that the way Blizzard did it last year, it wasn't as sustainable and they probably wouldn't have continued that path. So, it is valid to say the money from the Season finals do make up for less of a prize pool.
Overall, I think WCS is a risk Blizzard needed to take and it's good and will probably be good next season. For example, there are a lot more new up and comers being shown thanks to the WCS system. It's not as good as it could have been but certain better than before.
The only issue is the whole limiting of Korean tournaments and prize pool and the lack of region lock (thus, Koreans are even more encouraged to play in NA or EU instead).
Besides that, the problem isn't due to the tournament system (it could be better of course but not the main problem), it's just the game at it's state (and its ability to keep interest in viewers).
This year, Dota 2 was finally released out of beta and LoL continues to get more and more popular. Not only that, Hearthstone is getting lots of hype too. (While Hearthstone isn't a major competitive game, it is where the viewers or non-pros will probably go. If there are less viewers and players for SC2, then there will be less of a market for more tournaments and sponsors for SC2 due to less viewers.)
The solution to all of these problems it to clearly combine Hearthstone with SC2 somehow. On a serious note though, the biggest problems with SC2 compared to LoL, Dota, even Hearthstone is the fact that SC2 isn't a changing game.
LoL, Dota, card games, etc all get new stuff added frequently (new Heroes for Dota and LoL, new cards for card games) and they add variety to the game. If two games are equal in fun but one gets new stuff added more often while the other is just the same thing, which one will likely hold your interest longer?
I think WC4 has the potential. Even in WC3, they did add new heroes through patches (Goblin Tinker, Alchemist, and Firelord). Silly WC4 idea + Show Spoiler +
Though, what they need to do with WC4 is get rid of races, make it a draft system.
Like something like this in a 1v1 game (before the game starts, there's sort of a drafting and banning system): Player 1 bans Blademaster. Player 2 bans Guard Tower. Player 1 picks Farm, footmen, night elf archers, and moon wells. Player 2 picks Orc burrows, grunts, crypt fields, graveyards, etc.
Make it so you can mix and match (to a certain extent, like you have a 30-40 unit/structure limitation total and you need to make pick units/structures within those limitations).
Races are a limiting factor and it means the game can't change or get new stuff added as much due to "balance" complaints. When everyone can just build whatever from a pool of units and structures (like in Dota, LoL, card games, etc), then there's more room for the game to grow and get better and also it makes the game more interesting than pick 1 race and that's it.
Crazy idea but I don't think the same formula will work for traditional RTS anymore (if it at least wants to stay competitive with other games of similar genre anyway).
On October 08 2013 08:33 e4e5nf3 wrote: Wow, back when WCS was announced there was a lot of positive feedback and "this will save SC2" posts abound. There were also comparisons to LoL's world championships and that this type of tournament was needed for the scene.
Flashforward to now and there is a lot of gripe about the WCS being bad for SC2.... when in fact its very format and structure was barely changed from when it was announced. It's not like we weren't prepared for it... Blizzard layed it all out in front of us from day one.
Uh no. I don't think anyone knew it was going to strangle every other tournament from casting while it was going on. If they posted that, then you're right. I'm whining about something I should've seen coming, but afaik, they didn't.
On top of that, the prize split isn't amazing, and the format is convoluted in my opinion. I know the numbers are big for the top finishers of the global regional finals, but when I consider that basically this is a pro's focus for the entire year if s/he manages to stay in the running, it feels a little meh. I guess you'd be better be the best worldwide or else you're gonna waste a year of your life since nothing else runs while it's going on!
It has nothing to do with SC2. Even at the high of BW, there were only 12 major teams. SC2 is not as big as BW, yet there are way to many Korean teams and players and a lot of them are not good enough to be professionals.
sc2 is substantially larger than BW ever was, and its an international scene, of which most pros have remained a part of making less than minimum wage for years. Its collapse is because you cant even make that anymore. Its WCS/declining popularity, and obviously personal distaste on the part of some switched over kespa players. Not an inflated player base.
Nonsense -_-. Please do not compare kespa teams and non-kespa teams. Its totally different. Non kespa teams are like western teams. Revenue streams are only from sponsors and fan merchandising. Abnd most sponsors are not stable kinda dodgy. Kespa teams are proper teams with very strong contracts with the backing of the Law recognising the team. Benefits insurances etc etc financial statements etc etc. Revenue streams are more varied as they get a cut of broadcasting revenue so long as they participate in the proleague.
Name me a single sponsor of non-kespa team that is not involved in IT industry.... none. Look at kespa, SKT, samsung and now Jin Air lol.
SC2 was never bigger than BW ever was -_-. Not even close in fact. SC2 is merely inflated by the expectations of sponsors that its the next BW. When the audience is not there, its dead. Theres like 4 or 5 million original BW sold in korea. And plenty of other pirated ones in cybercafes. That gives u a fanbase/audience of say maybe 8-10 million ( i think they peaked at 3million for an osl finals). SC2 worldwide adding up wcs america, korea, europe even assuming all audience only follow 1 region, is less than quarter of million. SC2 was never big, it was jes inflated by the expectations of new sponsors thats all.
The only real esport ever in history is Kespa BW. All the rest are dodgy imitations and wannabe. Dreamhack MLG are event organisers. They could have similar success organising pokemon events during its peak but hey, events are what u do if you cant make a billion dollar industry on broadcast and merchandising alone. Funimation would never allow pokemon to be associated with that.
On October 08 2013 17:33 Kheve wrote: The only real esport ever in history is Kespa BW. All the rest are dodgy imitations and wannabe. Dreamhack MLG are event organisers. They could have similar success organising pokemon events during its peak but hey, events are what u do if you cant make a billion dollar industry on broadcast and merchandising alone. Funimation would never allow pokemon to be associated with that.
You still can't deny that the international following for BW was next-to-nothing. SC2, and Twitch.tv, brought eSports into the mainstream, really over only the past three years. SC2 isn't doing as well in Korea as its predecessor (mainly because hardcore BW fans in Korea recognize that SC2 is, fundamentally, an inferior game), but it's certainly bigger world-wide than BW ever was.
The corollary to this is that it is still the Korean scene that is the driving force in competitive Starcraft, and if the Korean scene weakens then the entire sport weakens as a consequence. I also think western viewers aren't as loyal as Korean fans were in BW, and I get the feeling players are emigrating to new games. This could have been mitigated if SC2 had the depth and complexity of BW, but without that it lacks the lasting power of BW. Blizzard's emphasis on always-online DRM, noob-friendly features, and Battle Net 0.2 are also hindering SC2's prospects for growth.
Ultimately, I just wish Blizzard would re-make BW perfectly in a new engine. They have never addressed the major eSports issues of SC2, and it's unlikely they ever will.
Still, GSL rules, and I still subscribe to it after all these years.
On October 08 2013 17:33 Kheve wrote: The only real esport ever in history is Kespa BW. All the rest are dodgy imitations and wannabe. Dreamhack MLG are event organisers. They could have similar success organising pokemon events during its peak but hey, events are what u do if you cant make a billion dollar industry on broadcast and merchandising alone. Funimation would never allow pokemon to be associated with that.
You still can't deny that the international following for BW was next-to-nothing. SC2, and Twitch.tv, brought eSports into the mainstream, really over only the past three years. SC2 isn't doing as well in Korea as its predecessor (mainly because hardcore BW fans in Korea recognize that SC2 is, fundamentally, an inferior game), but it's certainly bigger world-wide than BW ever was.
The corollary to this is that it is still the Korean scene that is the driving force in competitive Starcraft, and if the Korean scene weakens then the entire sport weakens as a consequence. I also think western viewers aren't as loyal as Korean fans were in BW, and I get the feeling players are emigrating to new games. This could have been mitigated if SC2 had the depth and complexity of BW, but without that it lacks the lasting power of BW. Blizzard's emphasis on always-online DRM, noob-friendly features, and Battle Net 0.2 are also hindering SC2's prospects for growth.
Ultimately, I just wish Blizzard would re-make BW perfectly in a new engine. They have never addressed the major eSports issues of SC2, and it's unlikely they ever will.
Still, GSL rules, and I still subscribe to it after all these years.
If they had done just that and cut the chaff, SC2 would be amazing in my opinion.
The pro scene still has its own issues and complexity that still need to be figured out.