I'm seeing a lot of comments from people who are disappointed that we did not share the exact plans for WCS 2014. To clarify, we did not intend for this to be an announcement, or an announcement of an announcement for that matter
The reality is that we are still finalizing the details of WCS 2014 with our partners, however, we did not want to wait until everything was finalized before letting you know some of the things we were discussing. We want to give the community an opportunity to provide feedback before we locked down the specific details. We have outlined most of our plans and ideas in some of our answers, but haven't fully committed to any of the decisions because we want to hear from the community. Our goal is to confirm and announce the plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon. That gives you at least a week to give us your input on what we've shared!
Q&A with Kim Phan, Senior eSports Manager at Blizzard Entertainment
With much speculation going around regarding the future of WCS, Blizzard offered to answer some important questions regarding the 2014 season. While many details for the 2014 season are still being decided upon, we hope this Q&A clears up some of the confusion and gives StarCraft 2 fans better understanding about Blizzard's overall plan and philosophy.
Kim Phan: Before we jump right into the questions, we’d like to take the time to thank the StarCraft II community for their passion and support of StarCraft II and eSports. We greatly appreciate the steady stream of feedback we’ve been receiving about WCS and we want the community to know that we’ve been listening. The planning of WCS 2014 has been an ongoing process, and we have been discussing a wide range of suggested ideas and proposals with partners, casters, players, and community figures. There has been great enthusiasm and involvement from everyone, not only here on the Team Liquid forums, but also on Reddit and directly with Blizzard. We’re close to finalizing our plans for WCS in 2014 and would like to take this opportunity to share our thoughts with the community while also addressing some of the questions and concerns out there. Our goal is to finalize plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon so that players, teams, and partners have time to prepare.
We welcome your feedback on the information we’re sharing here and would like to thank Team Liquid for gathering all of these questions for us! Here we go:
What are Blizzard's current plans regarding a residency or citizenship restriction for WCS regions in 2014 (region locking)?
As many of you are probably aware, this is one of the more challenging and controversial topics that we have yet to make a decision on.
Over time we have come to discover that there are a few key factors that positively influence viewership, which was one of the goals for WCS 2013. Though not a complete list by any means, some of the most influential factors are the following:
Skill level of the players
Uniqueness/personality of the players
Players who are viewed as national leaders/representatives
The rarity of the player matchup
We have found that allowing cross-regional participation for players not from a particular region has allowed for a compelling storm of the factors listed above. We think it’s been a really good thing to have players like Jaedong and Polt competing in WCS America, or MC and Jürgen (Mvp) competing in WCS Europe. This kind of cross-regional play has allowed fans of a given region to love and embrace players like these to a level they never had previously, making the scene interesting and exciting to watch. However, we also realize that these benefits have brought with them a great deal of baggage.
We are aware of the concern that allowing skilled players from other regions to easily swoop in and take Premier/Challenger spots can be a severe roadblock to the growth of up-and-coming talent within a local region. With that in mind, we are definitely considering various forms of residency restrictions, but the biggest obstacles include determining the specific requirements, logistics, and regulations that are fair but also don’t overly limit players. Some general ideas we have been considering include carving out a portion of player slots dedicated to legal residents that would guarantee players living in a particular region would always have a consistent chance to make it into Challenger League. Also, we are pushing for more of our broadcast content to happen in a physical studio environment, inevitably pushing players to commit to longer periods of time where they must reside locally. Other points of interest we feel relevant to this include encouraging pros to play on their prospective regional ladders and requiring that anyone who wants to qualify in a region be ranked at a certain level on that region’s server. We have even been considering rewarding WCS points to players on the ladder who have registered with us as official WCS players.
Ultimately, it’s awesome when players make the decision to commit to playing in a region and show more dedication and investment to that region, whether that be committing to a local residence, competing on the regional ladder, participating in local tournaments, or generally engaging with the fan base located there. We’ve seen this with foreign players who made the decision to move to Korea to compete in GSL and Proleague and vice versa with Korean players who have moved to Europe or America for WCS.
We’ve discussed this topic internally at length and hope to come to a balanced solution to meet the goals for WCS. Please do continue to share your thoughts with us on this one!
Has the past year made Blizzard reconsider WCS's position in the scene? Is the aim of WCS 2014 still to be the SC2 tournament above all other tournaments?
When we launched WCS 2013, our main goal was to create a global system that was capable of identifying the undisputed, best StarCraft II player on the planet, and we did this by creating a unified structure for major StarCraft II competition happening in the world. At the time it was clear that this unifying action was necessary for the scene to grow, and Blizzard was in the best position to help pull together all the various entities involved in fostering professional StarCraft II. The statement “the tournament above all other tournaments” carries with it a strong sense of ego. I can promise you that the attitude of being superior is not a part of what we’re interested in with WCS and we definitely don’t view it that way internally at Blizzard. We have no interest in outshining or overshadowing the various groups that have helped StarCraft grow over the many years, but we do want to help viewers and players understand how all those various pieces fit into a comprehensive competitive picture. We recognize that there are a lot of improvements that can be made to how the WCS tiered system integrates other tournaments into a central story line, and that is certainly a major part of what we’re considering for 2014.
What are the primary goals for the WCS system in 2014?
The goals for WCS 2014 haven’t changed from the goals we established in 2013, but we recognize we can do better and want to make changes to help us get there. These goals include:
Increase global viewership and reach to make SCII more popular and help grow the SCII community
Create a unified storyline for professional competition
Identify the top SCII players in the world by establishing a clear global ranking system
Simplify the system by making it easier for pros and viewers to participate and follow professional StarCraft wherever they are in the world.
The primary goal for WCS 2014 is to improve the current system by making it simpler and easier to follow. The following will still exist:
There will be three leagues operating in each of the existing regions – America, Europe, and Korea
There will be WCS points that contribute to a global ranking system
Here are some of the things we are looking to improve:
Make the format more linear and simplified, causing a reexamination of how a particular season is played out
Make the broadcast program easier to watch and follow by having a more predictable schedule
Reexamine the WCS tiered system for tournaments outside the league.
Will Blizzard go on as planned with four Premier seasons in 2014, as laid out during the initial WCS 2013 announcement?
There will be three seasons instead of four in WCS 2014. We want to do this for the following reasons:
Allow for more breathing room for players, league hosts, and spectators, also granting us more flexibility with our schedule
Simplify the system and make it more linear
Allow more room in the calendar for other tournament events to take part in the system
Is Blizzard considering extremely drastic changes to the WCS format for 2014? To be specific, a change on the magnitude of what happened between 2012 and 2013?
This is something we’ve considered and discussed at length internally and with our tournament partners. That said, we’re happy with the general direction of WCS and have decided that 2014 is not the year to make drastic changes but instead make improvements to what we currently have established.
Will there be any new regions added to WCS 2014?
We have considered supporting additional regions with WCS, but are not planning for it in 2014. We would like to find ways to support and incorporate these regions into the overall WCS system by increasing local opportunities and allowing them to be a part of the points system. We also hope to work with regional tournament organizers to operate more WCS tiered tournaments.
Will there be any changes in regional partners in 2014? Is Blizzard looking into working with more than one organization per region?
At this time, WCS America is operated by NASL, and WCS Europe is operated by ESL. In Korea, where we currently have two partners (OGN and GOMTV), we are talking with them to find ways where we can streamline the experience for players and viewers.
On a related note, what does Blizzard think of the role of non-WCS tournaments? Are there plans to further incorporate them into the WCS system? Are there plans to make it easier for other organizations to hold major events during the WCS season?
We think non-WCS tournaments are crucial to the StarCraft II ecosystem, and we do have plans to extend the WCS storyline to more tournaments. In order to do this, we plan to simplify the broadcast schedule for WCS to allow for other organizations to hold major events during the year.
Is Blizzard looking into expanding or contracting the online portions of the WCS Premier tournaments? (i.e. is the Ro32 going to be played live for every region?)
We’re looking into how we can make all of WCS Premier League take place in-studio, but with this come additional operational costs and greater logistical challenges in the regions where players are more spread out across multiple countries.
What does Blizzard think of team leagues and their place in the scene? Is there any way they might be incorporated into the WCS system?
We think team leagues are great and we’re supportive of them, but we do not have any plans to incorporate them directly into the WCS system in 2014. However, we do have ideas around how we can make WCS points more meaningful to teams and players by encouraging team spirit and support in WCS. One idea is to track a WCS team ranking based on the points earned by players on teams. From there, we could potentially do something fun—for example, inviting the top-ranked teams with the most WCS points to compete in an exhibition match at a major tournament event. We’ll be putting more thought around this moving forward and look forward to hearing the community’s ideas as well.
Will WCS 2014 try to help promote lower level tournaments and small LANs?
Yes, the Blizzard eSports team plans to help promote and support lower level tournaments, but this is independent from our plans for WCS 2014.
Will the prize pool for WCS 2014 be raised? Will the prize pool for WCS 2014 be more evenly distributed?
This is something we’re discussing, but we haven’t made any decisions because we’re still evaluating other ways or areas we can contribute to the ecosystem outside of the prize pool to better support more players.
What were the contents of the memo sent out that has many players believing Season 3 Challenger League is not giving seeds into the next Premier League?
The intention of the memo was to let the players know we’re planning to make changes to WCS in 2014. Unfortunately, we haven’t made a decision on the format changes yet, which affects how the current Season 3 Challenger League will feed into Season 1 of 2014. As it exists in 2013, the Challenger League bracket stage feeds into the following Premier League. This may or may not change with the possible adjustments in 2014. Why? Because we’ve considered making changes to how Premier League works. We are also considering changes to Challenger League. We still have more to determine, but here is what we know for sure:
The top 8 players who are already in Premier League will continue to stay in Premier League in Season 1 of 2014.
There will be a new Challenger League format for WCS 2014. We haven’t agreed on the Challenger League or qualifier format yet, which is why we haven’t shared additional details.
Placement in the current Challenger League Group Stage will seed into the new Challenger League or qualifying process.
When we sent the email to players, it was communicated that Challenger League would not directly feed into Premier League because we wanted to restructure Challenger League. There are currently two phases in Challenger League, the group stage and the bracket stage, and there is a possibility that placement in the current Challenger bracket stage could still seed directly into Premier League. This decision hasn’t been made yet because we have to finalize our plans regarding region-lock first.
What is Blizzard's plan for seeding Season 3 players across all leagues into the first season of WCS 2014?
We’re still finalizing the format changes for qualifying into Season 1 of WCS 2014. This is contingent upon the decisions we make around region-locking.
The seasonal grand slams received a lot of criticism for negating the storylines built up over the course of the season in each individual region. Will they be continuing in their current form?
We think the season finals are exciting to watch and have a different story from the regional finals, but we agree that it would be good to give more attention to each of the individual regions. We have decided that the season finals will not be continuing in their current form and we’re looking to change how they work in 2014. By taking away the season finals from each season, we hope to give more significance to each of the individual regional finals and global tiered events.
We think the international moments from season finals could potentially be substituted by creating more opportunities for other major tournaments participating in the WCS point system. We hope to provide a greater spotlight and give more importance to the major tournaments such as DreamHack, IEM, and Red Bull Battle Grounds.
The viewer and player base for a game are closely connected. Is Blizzard considering any changes to SC2's distribution method so WCS viewers can get into the game more easily, or create a wider potential audience for WCS?
We are always looking for ways to improve the spectating experience as well as grow both the audience and player base. While there will be opportunities to make improvements and changes to the game in the future, we aren’t announcing anything at this point.
Sounds promising, I really hope they at least reserve slots for people in each region, so you still have some sort of a foreigner competition even if they allow cross region play again in 2014.
Personally, I care more about individual tournaments, not one giant system of tournaments, and I find that having so many for so long really weakens the "storyline" of WCS.
To clarify, Mvp's victory in Europe isn't very meaningful when he gets knocked out of challenger in the same cycle.
The part about extending the "Storyline" to other tournaments makes me worry, although I am glad they are keeping the 3 seasons, rather than have it go all year long.
One quest that I would like to have answered is if they are going to reconsider how many points are distributed from each event; take Dreamhack Valencia. Despite being having the same prizepool, and more participants, it gives less WCS points then every other Dreamhack.
I am none the wiser. But it looks more like minor improvements instead of the big step that is in my opinion needed to bring the scene forward. Not sure if WCS as a whole is still a good concept with Blizzard's reluctance to commit more to it.
Some of these things are clear improvements for people to be happy about, like cutting the global season finals and letting the region finals be a little more special, having more of the competition off-line is good, I take it that means all of the premiere leagues will be off-line.
Jaedong and Polt competing in WCS America, or MC and Jürgen
That part is the most interesting to me that she chose those players when talking about region lock, because barring jaedong, aren't Polt, MC, and MVP living in the region of the WCS they're playing in? Under the region-lock system most people seem to want those players would still be playing in the respective WCS regions they've been playing in for 2013. Whether she mentioned those names on purpose or if it was an oversight is something I'm not sure of
EDIT: I guess MVP hasn't been staying in Europe, oops
We’ve seen this with foreign players who made the decision to move to Korea to compete in GSL and Proleague and vice versa with Korean players who have moved to Europe or America for WCS.
Wait, did I miss a foreigner other than major participate in the GSL/proleague in KR?
basically nothing changed except that there is 3 WCS instead of 4? as always good job blizzard i was hoping much more but as usual disappointed, my biggest dream is to play an rts riot esport game that would be the best thing it could happen to the rts scene.
Having a joint WCS point system to make it clear who is the best player in the world? They kind of already have that, and it would be super difficult to do, seeing as most of the best players play in korea and knock each other out.
Hm, i cant really say i got any wiser from reading this... but i guess that was to be expected.
This will sound increadibly negative, and i apologize for that, but all Kim Phan is saying is "We are going to make changes, we cant announce any changes because we havnt decided what to change... but there will be changes. And we know what changes people in the community are suggesting.. and we are taking them into consideration."
But its good to hear there will be changes atleast.
not a lot of finalized information but I am glad they are only doing three seasons, preferably starting earlier in the year than they did this year. Hopefully it will spread out the seasons a bit more and allow more room between seasons instead of the current way where we have the season final then a week later the new season starts :3
On October 15 2013 09:13 FiWiFaKi wrote: Did this interview say anything?
The way I'm reading it... Nothing is changed? Why are people happy with his interview. We got no insight.
Pretty much nothing from what I've read, but then again my eyes glazed over around the 7th time I read something about 'storylines' that didn't really answer the question
On October 15 2013 09:13 FiWiFaKi wrote: Did this interview say anything?
The way I'm reading it... Nothing is changed? Why are people happy with his interview. We got no insight.
Feel free to read it again then, they mention an idea for region lock being a certain amount of spots being reserved for players living in or citizens of the region, they mention 3 seasons instead of 4 in order to give more tournaments a spotlight and finding better ways to incorporate other tournaments, and the season finals are going to be cut or drastically altered.
Blizz isn't the type to show the big shock and awe changes through an interview on TL, you can get some insight into what they're thinking, but the big news is probably going to come at or around Blizzcon.
On October 15 2013 09:13 FiWiFaKi wrote: Did this interview say anything?
The way I'm reading it... Nothing is changed? Why are people happy with his interview. We got no insight.
Three seasons next year, not the planned four. No more season finals next year (in their current form). Some sort of "region lock."
Honestly, I'm surprised they don't just commit to a hard region lock and force players to live in the region they are playing in. I'm okay with Koreans winning, but they should at least live in the region, play on the ladder, and hopefully be on a team from that region so as to support the region itself and the players playing in it. None of this "Let's fly out the Koreans to win their money, and then they go home without contributing anything to the region."
Also, I'm surprised Blizzard doesn't see the value in team leagues. If they want SC2 to be self-sustaining, it should have a strong team league where players can represent their sponsors.
I feel like this 'interview' was just an official 'we know about the complaints and want to change some things' that everyone can link when that discussion pops up.
"Blizzard has shown us they refuse to listen!" "Actually they are, here *enter link*"
Hmm only having 3 seasons could either be the best move ever or go terribly bad. Seeing how the only events existing right now is IEM and Dreamhack hopefully OSL or a GSL all-star season could happen.
I mean, allowing for a set number of spots for NA/EU players to qualify doesn't really help right? Because those players will still get cleaned out by the top Koreans in Premier?
Didn't get too specific on this. Basically all we know is that there are changes coming, but they said they won't be drastic.
I'm glad that they are looking more into helping upcoming players, removing season finals, working on the region-locking issue, reworking the non-WCS tournament point system, and potentially implementing a soft integration of team leagues into the WCS system.
Seriously, some of you guys expect too much! Let the WCS grow slowly and organically!
Also, wait till Blizzcon! We'll see what Blizzard has in stores (although it would be nice, if they have a place where the community involving tournament organizers, players, and team managers can place their feedback onto the WCS system).
No details here, but I'm sure Blizzard wants control over that announcement. Overall, this gives us a good portrait of Blizzard's mindset. I'm not sure what I think of it yet. Plenty to agree with, plenty to disagree with.
Nothing quite new yet but I think we should be able to hear about it more at Blizzcon. But still three regions throwing out China and SEA is a huge disappointment.
On October 15 2013 09:25 tree.hugger wrote: No details here, but I'm sure Blizzard wants control over that announcement. Overall, this gives us a good portrait of Blizzard's mindset. I'm not sure what I think of it yet. Plenty to agree with, plenty to disagree with.
What's the point on conducting a Q&A when they don't answer anything? We might as well say, "Sorry guys we tried to get some questions answered but they didn't really give us anything of worth."
I don't see why we need region locking... why should amazing Koreans not be able to make it into premier league because there isn't room, due to a lot of way lower class Americans having a reserved spot?
Koreans are all people too, we shouldn't change the rules around, just in response to them being really good. If Americans want to get far in WCS, they should learn to play better than the Koreans. I think players should be praised for their overall level of skill, not for how good they are for where they come from.
I really like the season finals, I feel they really bring out the best in everyone as there are so many WCS points at stake, thus the players have alot of incentive to do well. Example, see season 2 finals, some of the highest quality starcraft the world has ever seen.
I particularly like that it'll only be 3 seasons. I think that's good for a number of reasons, obviously gives players more room and other events some room to do things that they want to do which won't interfere.
This whole WCS is absurd. What Blizzard needs to do is have 1 big tournament at Blizzcon where they have a huge prize pool like half a million dollars (like dota2) and have it be redistributed over 32 players.
This will be the end year tournament that will have the best player in the world as winning the 1 million dollar tournament is going to be the highest priority for all the players and the best one will win.
This WCS crap where you don't know when it is, the studio is extremely small and feels so small in scope, there are too many regions, too many tournament, too weird of a situation with players from other continents playing in other regions, etc...
Just a giant mess that is destroying 3rd party tournaments like Dreamhack, eswc, MLG, NASL, Totalbisquit tournaments and smaller tournaments.
Definitely not the announcement people were waiting for, but at least it shows that Blizzard is thinking of a lot about the main suggestions that people have been bringing up. If they are disappointed with viewership then I am somewhat scared for the future because nothing is being done to bring more players into the game at the moment.
On October 15 2013 09:29 BillGates wrote: This whole WCS is absurd. What Blizzard needs to do is have 1 big tournament at Blizzcon where they have a huge prize pool like half a million dollars (like dota2) and have it be redistributed over 32 players.
This will be the end year tournament that will have the best player in the world as winning the 1 million dollar tournament is going to be the highest priority for all the players and the best one will win.
This WCS crap where you don't know when it is, the studio is extremely small and feels so small in scope, there are too many regions, too many tournament, too weird of a situation with players from other continents playing in other regions, etc...
Just a giant mess that is destroying 3rd party tournaments like Dreamhack, eswc, MLG, NASL, Totalbisquit tournaments and smaller tournaments.
1 big tournament wouldn't work in starcraft imo :/
Lol at this "Q and A". Was nothing but simple PR and dancing around topics and questions with empty, meaningless words stating how they will consider things, or are taking all ideas into account. Not really surprising though honestly.
I wish there was a Latin american league which the winner would get a spot in the season finals or even play against someone from another region to get it (similar to what the FIFA world cup have, when the 4th placed team from North, Central America and Caribbean plays with the Oceania's champion).
And I am also not fond of the idea of not having a season finals.
TL;DR we haven't made any decisions yet and we're not even sure why we agreed to do this Q&A now To be fair they did say there will only be 3 seasons, and no new regions
Seems like they're hinting at a semi-region-lock, where some Challenger qualifier spots are reserved for players who live in the region, and some are open to anyone.
The restructure of Challenger will be so that there are more than 8 qualifier spots each season, I'd guess.
I appreciate the continuity in format, structure etc that is promised when she says there will be no drastic differences. Already now, SC2 tournaments are booked for more than a year away. This scene is staying really strong!
I don't think a full on region-lock would be good.
What she said regarding the prize pool is really interesting. Personally I think money would be better spent helping teams establish team houses close to the different studios. That would help with the logistical issues connected to playing all games offline. This would also improve the conditions for a team league, which Kim mentioned was something to encourage, and I agree; it helps new-comers establish themselves and get studio experience.
I don't like removing the season finals; I really liked them. I think the problem of them blending into and oscuring the regional storylines will be solved if there is more time between them and the regional finals, which should be the case with three seasons instead of four.
Challenger League should be played before the Premier League, creating a more linear and logical story and build-up towards the finals.
I would be interested in a WCS Asia (China+SEA), but I could see that there's not enough base material and interest for it to occur. Perhaps a solution would be to create a second tier of WCS tournaments, with one in South and Latin America and one in SEA and China. Those being less prestigious, with less prize money, less production and less spots in Season Finals.
WCS 2013 has been awesome so far, and the Global Finals are still to come. Thank you, Blizzard! I look forward to WCS 2014 already!
I'm probably a minority with this view, but I dislike how both Blizzard and many posters in community sites are so focused on upper end symptoms (low viewership on pro tourneys) rather than what I view as more base level issues... the primary being small (relatively speaking) playerbase.
If more people play the game, viewership should just grow and sustain at higher number because people who play the game will have emotional understanding of the game.
"Storylines" (I hate that term in esports urgh) and good production can only carry this business so far. It's hard to convince someone to care about other people playing a video game when that person couldn't care enough to play the game in the first place.
SC2 is just too mechanically demanding to sustain a playerbase size large enough to grow any further. BW fans will probably disagree with me since BW was definitely much more mechanically challenging yet had some amazing success in Korea. But Korea has the fortune of having a central location and back then competition was just different.
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Lot of fluff, not a lot of content. A lot of what Blizz is saying is basically "the details are up in the air, we're thinking we'll do so and so, but not certain about it." As per usual, we're going to have to wait until Blizzcon or later for the finalized details, but that should be okay. Still a few months until 2014, a lot can change in that time, especially in a place like esports. Plus the stuff they're thinking about and the concepts they're focusing on are pretty good.
On October 15 2013 09:45 Killmouse wrote: "We hope to provide a greater spotlight and give more importance to the major tournaments such as DreamHack, IEM, and Red Bull Battle Grounds."
R.I.P in piece MLG starcraft i guess^^
Bullshit. She didn't mention HSC or ASUS ROG - do we think these tournaments are dead just because of that?
Very happy to see the removal of the season finals. Let other tournaments like DH and IEM handle the primary international competition. It was sad to see the winners of the S2 regional finals devalued immediately by Jaedong and Bomber.
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to go from 7 tournaments to 4 and leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
I think everyone expected big announcements set in stone for next year. But yeah, it seems like positive changes.
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to go from 7 tournaments to 4 and leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
I don't see how this will increases the viewership. The numbers across the board are going to be roughly the same. I didn't like Seasonal Finals either or the ridiculous amount of games all the time and I'd call that marginal. I would much prefer a WTC which includes PL per location. It's much simpler using the infrastructure we already have in place.
On October 15 2013 09:51 Firestorm wrote: Why get rid of the seasonal finals?
It fucks too much up. It gave way to many points, which screwed with the importance of the regional leagues. Also it overshadows the regional league in terms of story. duckdeok overcoming many things to become a champion was a great story, Maru being a royal roader in OSL beating the then argubly best player in world 4-0 and beating the first KeSPA champion Rain in finals was as awesome as it can get in StarCraft. However these things are just overshadowed by the seasonal finals, were both lost in Groups and all the attention was given to Bomber and others that made it farther.
On October 15 2013 09:09 giririsss wrote: Only having 3 seasons?
And then not having a season final?
So it goes from 7 tournaments to 4.
Fail.
Utter fail.
No wonder GSL are looking elsewhere for new e-sports, this is basically the last nail in the coffin.
If Blizzard invests much more into making the regional finals bigger and more meaningful I have no problem here at all. You could consider each regional final a 'tournament' - in this case you're potentially getting 3 more 'tournaments' per season in return for no season final.
I actually like this a lot more. Seems so weird that WCS 2013 Season 3 finals are just a few days before the entire WCS 2013 Grand Slam.
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Thanks for making this list, I'm not sure why a lot of the reactions in this thread are like "well there's no info in here, but I didn't really read it, but if I did read it, I don't think there'd be anything so I didn't read it"
region lock is kinda neat, but they should let each region organizers to add in their own money to the prize pool especially in korea, since theres more skill concentraded in that region, players who win that region should be rewarded accordingly
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Thanks for making this list, I'm not sure why a lot of the reactions in this thread are like "well there's no info in here, but I didn't really read it, but if I did read it, I don't think there'd be anything so I didn't read it"
the list of actual info being: [*]No more seasonal finals [*]Three seasons instead of four
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Thanks for making this list, I'm not sure why a lot of the reactions in this thread are like "well there's no info in here, but I didn't really read it, but if I did read it, I don't think there'd be anything so I didn't read it"
the list of actual info being: [*]No more seasonal finals [*]Three seasons instead of four
More offline is significant, semi-region lock is significant, wait everything Nazgul listed was significant. I personally think if the owner of a major SC2 team makes a list, the points shouldn't be ignored for the sake of being negative
On October 15 2013 09:51 Firestorm wrote: Why get rid of the seasonal finals?
It fucks too much up. It gave way to many points, which screwed with the importance of the regional leagues. Also it overshadows the regional league in terms of story. duckdeok overcoming many things to become a champion was a great story, Maru being a royal roader in OSL beating the then argubly best player in world 4-0 and beating the first KeSPA champion Rain in finals was as awesome as it can get in StarCraft. However these things are just overshadowed by the seasonal finals, were both lost in Groups and all the attention was given to Bomber and others that made it farther.
Surely the points system could be adjusted? Those were great tournaments, at least Season 2 was.
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Thanks for making this list, I'm not sure why a lot of the reactions in this thread are like "well there's no info in here, but I didn't really read it, but if I did read it, I don't think there'd be anything so I didn't read it"
They mostly say: "we discuss that internally" There are some informations about what is going to change, but not about how it's going to change
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Thanks for making this list, I'm not sure why a lot of the reactions in this thread are like "well there's no info in here, but I didn't really read it, but if I did read it, I don't think there'd be anything so I didn't read it"
the list of actual info being: [*]No more seasonal finals [*]Three seasons instead of four
More offline is significant, semi-region lock is significant, wait everything Nazgul listed was significant
Keyword here being actual. The rest isn't concrete.
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Thanks for making this list, I'm not sure why a lot of the reactions in this thread are like "well there's no info in here, but I didn't really read it, but if I did read it, I don't think there'd be anything so I didn't read it"
the list of actual info being: [*]No more seasonal finals [*]Three seasons instead of four
More offline is significant, semi-region lock is significant, wait everything Nazgul listed was significant
Keyword here being actual. The rest isn't concrete.
I edited this in my post above but I think if the owner of a major SC2 team makes a list of important points in an interview, the points shouldn't be ignored for the sake of being negative
These three things don't go together: --have the biggest tournament be based on WCS points --reset WCS points after the tournament --seed players from the season before the tournament into the season after the tournament
EITHER points shouldn't ever reset, but rather decay, and the biggest tournament should happen more than once a year OR points reset annually after the big tournament and there should be no seeds after the big tournament.
And specifically the way it is now for NA, a player's performance in a single elim bracket in September 2013 is going to determine whether they can play in Season One Premier League 2014, which is going to happen at least four months later. I think that's too extreme for SC2.
These are all reasonable and positive statements from Blizzard. I personally would be in favor of a hard region lock though. Looking forward to WCS 2014.
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Thanks for making this list, I'm not sure why a lot of the reactions in this thread are like "well there's no info in here, but I didn't really read it, but if I did read it, I don't think there'd be anything so I didn't read it"
the list of actual info being: [*]No more seasonal finals [*]Three seasons instead of four
More offline is significant, semi-region lock is significant, wait everything Nazgul listed was significant. I personally think if the owner of a major SC2 team makes a list, the points shouldn't be ignored for the sake of being negative
On October 15 2013 10:09 Xiphos wrote: I'm confused with the "3 seasons instead of 4" part. Don't we already have 3 WCS seasons atm? If so, then nothing changes.
In 2013, it started in april, with the second GSL season of the year
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Thanks for making this list, I'm not sure why a lot of the reactions in this thread are like "well there's no info in here, but I didn't really read it, but if I did read it, I don't think there'd be anything so I didn't read it"
the list of actual info being: [*]No more seasonal finals [*]Three seasons instead of four
More offline is significant, semi-region lock is significant, wait everything Nazgul listed was significant
Keyword here being actual. The rest isn't concrete.
I edited this in my post above but I think if the owner of a major SC2 team makes a list of important points in an interview, the points shouldn't be ignored for the sake of being negative
They aren't being willfully ignored for the sake of being negative though if you actually read the comments and no one likes brown nosers. We could use some more innovation.
On October 15 2013 10:09 NonY wrote: These three things don't go together: --have the biggest tournament be based on WCS points --reset WCS points after the tournament --seed players from the season before the tournament into the season after the tournament
EITHER points shouldn't ever reset, but rather decay, and the biggest tournament should happen more than once a year OR points reset annually after the big tournament and there should be no seeds after the big tournament.
And specifically the way it is now for NA, a player's performance in a single elim bracket in September 2013 is going to determine whether they can play in Season One Premier League 2014, which is going to happen at least four months later. I think that's too extreme for SC2.
Especially with major patches or let's say LotV (that will be a while though). If it were up to me, I'd reset the clock altogether.
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Thanks for making this list, I'm not sure why a lot of the reactions in this thread are like "well there's no info in here, but I didn't really read it, but if I did read it, I don't think there'd be anything so I didn't read it"
the list of actual info being: [*]No more seasonal finals [*]Three seasons instead of four
More offline is significant, semi-region lock is significant, wait everything Nazgul listed was significant
Keyword here being actual. The rest isn't concrete.
I edited this in my post above but I think if the owner of a major SC2 team makes a list of important points in an interview, the points shouldn't be ignored for the sake of being negative
They aren't being willfully ignored for the sake of being negative though if you actually read the comments and no one likes brown nosers. We could use some more innovation.
Didn't realize taking note of what someone who is in the position to have more knowledge than me said is brown nosing. I agree things aren't perfect, but I'm looking forward to hear more on region lock and the other changes hinted.
And for better or worse, I have actually (??) read all the comments.
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Thanks for making this list, I'm not sure why a lot of the reactions in this thread are like "well there's no info in here, but I didn't really read it, but if I did read it, I don't think there'd be anything so I didn't read it"
the list of actual info being: [*]No more seasonal finals [*]Three seasons instead of four
More offline is significant, semi-region lock is significant, wait everything Nazgul listed was significant
Keyword here being actual. The rest isn't concrete.
I edited this in my post above but I think if the owner of a major SC2 team makes a list of important points in an interview, the points shouldn't be ignored for the sake of being negative
They aren't being willfully ignored for the sake of being negative though if you actually read the comments and no one likes brown nosers. We could use some more innovation.
Didn't realize taking note of what someone who is in the position to have more knowledge than me said is brown nosing. my bad. I agree things aren't perfect, but I'm looking forward to hear more on region lock and the other changes hinted.
We have to think about the implications. If let's say we were to base it on where they reside/train what effects would this have on other scenes? The Korean scene is already shrinking as the KeSPA teams downsize and other teams struggle to get by. Are we more likely to see more Western teams pick-up Koreans and possibly move them to their training houses if they own one? How cost effective would that be? We've already seen quite a few Koreans make the switch. As it stands the Korean market is already on Life Support. If we continue to shrink their opportunities I have a hard time seeing many left standing. Ofc with LotV I'm sure we'll see many players pick-up the game for some time. Like I said before, I think we have to think outside of the box, because there are only so many legitimate teams that can actually afford to send players out to events. I'd like to see Blizzard take a bigger role and in some way start to bring more legitimacy to the circuit by accrediting teams and bringing the organizers together for more structure. In other words, form a fucking committee.
I hope they wont remove season finals cause the games were great and it created additional storylines , the main problem with this years season finale were that it the whole wcs was rushed so the season finale happened right after regional finals , since there will be only 3 wcs seasons next year that means there will be a lot more breathing room = 4-5 weeks after the regionals finals blizz should host season finals = no more forgotten champions + additional storylines since the best of each regions battle it out(more foreigner also in the season finale because of lock)
No support for other regions - goodbye SEA server being even close to relevant. While over-saturated with Zerg it made for extremely high level ZvZ and (with people like Moonglade) saw very competitive play with good mechanics. Australia isn't close to an e-sports country (not recognized and very few tournaments) and Blizzard could have expanded the regions. Now the only SC2 that is going to happen is those players who outsource themselves to the US. There are very few local tournaments here and with outsourcing I don't see SC2 surviving at all down under or in South East Asia.
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Thanks for making this list, I'm not sure why a lot of the reactions in this thread are like "well there's no info in here, but I didn't really read it, but if I did read it, I don't think there'd be anything so I didn't read it"
the list of actual info being: [*]No more seasonal finals [*]Three seasons instead of four
More offline is significant, semi-region lock is significant, wait everything Nazgul listed was significant
Keyword here being actual. The rest isn't concrete.
I edited this in my post above but I think if the owner of a major SC2 team makes a list of important points in an interview, the points shouldn't be ignored for the sake of being negative
They aren't being willfully ignored for the sake of being negative though if you actually read the comments and no one likes brown nosers. We could use some more innovation.
Didn't realize taking note of what someone who is in the position to have more knowledge than me said is brown nosing. my bad. I agree things aren't perfect, but I'm looking forward to hear more on region lock and the other changes hinted.
We have to think about the implications. If let's say we were to base it on where they reside/train what effects would this have on other scenes? The Korean scene is already shrinking as the KeSPA teams downsize and other teams struggle to get by. Are we more likely to see more Western teams pick-up Koreans and possibly move them to their training houses if they own one? How cost effective would that be? We've already seen quite a few Koreans make the switch. As it stands the Korean market is already on Life Support. If we continue to shrink their opportunities I have a hard time seeing many left. Ofc with LotV I'm sure we'll see many players pick-up the game for some time. Like I said before, I think we have to think outside of the box, because there are only so many legitimate teams that can actually afford to send players out to events. I'd like to see Blizzard take a bigger role and in some way start to bring more legitimacy to the circuit by accrediting teams and bringing the organizers together for more structure.
Yeah, I agree these are all reasonable concerns, it sucks that it does sort of seem like the cost of foreign growth (purely in terms of WCS) may come at the cost of korean-scene stability (hopefully that is worded decently). I'd love to see the Korean scene grow rather than shrink, and I for sure don't have any answers. Thank you for the reply!
Less season finals in favor of regional finals is really positive. The fact that they're aiming at making WCS less "invasive" is great.
I gotta admit I was waiting for more from this Q&A, it seems we didn't learn "that much". I'm not really fond of the way she makes her answers a bit blury and sometimes even dodging the question, but in the end i'm quite ok with their mindset.
It seems to me they're aware of what need to be improved.
lol, reading through most of these comments is making me sad. They are making efforts to incorporate a lot of the things we've wanted, and people are shitting all over them saying stuff like "wow, no information".
So idiotic, this is actually quite a bit of information.
Good read. I don't see blizzard ever making SC 2 free to play. If they aren't making WoW free to play. It isn't the perfect model. It works for LoL and Dota. but with SC 2 you also get a kick ass campaign. (Ok it isn't that great, but it was fun and I will likely not play it again anytime soon, but still....!@!)
On October 15 2013 10:39 KrazyTrumpet wrote: lol, reading through most of these comments is making me sad. They are making efforts to incorporate a lot of the things we've wanted, and people are shitting all over them saying stuff like "wow, no information".
So idiotic, this is actually quite a bit of information.
Come on, this is TL, negative is what people do here. Naz'Gul can say everything is great and people still complain. If Blizzard released all the info, people would complain too. The TL Community lives for it. Reddit is more positive now a days.
On October 15 2013 10:39 KrazyTrumpet wrote: lol, reading through most of these comments is making me sad. They are making efforts to incorporate a lot of the things we've wanted, and people are shitting all over them saying stuff like "wow, no information".
So idiotic, this is actually quite a bit of information.
People only read what they want to read. I agree, there's a lot of info in here, they just didn't say "THIS, THIS, AND THIS IS EXACTLY TO THE TEE WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO". They've said themselves, over and over in fact, that they haven't made the final decisions yet. But they did let us know what they were considering.
Real good read, i think it's important that they're identifying specific problems they want to tackle; better than saying "we're going to make it much better, and fix everything!"
On October 15 2013 10:50 BathTubNZ wrote: I don't think they should reduce the seasons and drop the season finals. just lower the points rewarded during the season finals instead.
There's too much as is when it comes to the WCS. They have to reduce it in some way.
On October 15 2013 10:39 KrazyTrumpet wrote: lol, reading through most of these comments is making me sad. They are making efforts to incorporate a lot of the things we've wanted, and people are shitting all over them saying stuff like "wow, no information".
So idiotic, this is actually quite a bit of information.
Come on, this is TL, negative is what people do here. Naz'Gul can say everything is great and people still complain. If Blizzard released all the info, people would complain too. The TL Community loves for it. Reddit is more positive now a days.
It's really making me just not want to come to the site anymore.
Our goal is to finalize plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon so that players, teams, and partners have time to prepare.
If they meet this goal, Blizzard time notwithstanding, we'll be hearing their concrete plans within a month. There's a bit much negativity when it sounds like all their planned changes are improvements.
One thing I'd like to see is a mid-year tournament, not just the Blizzcon one, rather than remove the season finals altogether. However, with 3 seasons, there's not exactly a clear cut halfway point.
On October 15 2013 10:39 KrazyTrumpet wrote: lol, reading through most of these comments is making me sad. They are making efforts to incorporate a lot of the things we've wanted, and people are shitting all over them saying stuff like "wow, no information".
So idiotic, this is actually quite a bit of information.
Come on, this is TL, negative is what people do here. Naz'Gul can say everything is great and people still complain. If Blizzard released all the info, people would complain too. The TL Community loves for it. Reddit is more positive now a days.
It's really making me just not want to come to the site anymore.
The live report threads are fine. The general discussion is pretty worthless now a days. Just filled with negativity no matter what happens.
On October 15 2013 10:39 KrazyTrumpet wrote: lol, reading through most of these comments is making me sad. They are making efforts to incorporate a lot of the things we've wanted, and people are shitting all over them saying stuff like "wow, no information".
So idiotic, this is actually quite a bit of information.
Come on, this is TL, negative is what people do here. Naz'Gul can say everything is great and people still complain. If Blizzard released all the info, people would complain too. The TL Community loves for it. Reddit is more positive now a days.
It's really making me just not want to come to the site anymore.
The live report threads are fine. The general discussion is pretty worthless now a days. Just filled with negativity no matter what happens.
I want to come here and have good discussions, though. Live report threads generally aren't my thing.
i like the idea of a no season finals. We all know koreans will dominate NA an EU anyways.. Just have the season finals prize pool be thrown into WCS korea. Then mayb it will entice the koreans the play in Korea.
On October 15 2013 11:09 Champloo wrote: Oh wow, this sounds like they will still not lock the regions completely. Koreans winning all the regions is NOT fun for anyone but the Koreans.
But they do bring out the best of the gameplay. I guess you like personality over games. If someone else are better than ya, well get better. Are NA/EU players willing to live on instant noodles for a few years and grab sponsorships organically? If not, then they don't deserve charity.
On October 15 2013 10:39 KrazyTrumpet wrote: lol, reading through most of these comments is making me sad. They are making efforts to incorporate a lot of the things we've wanted, and people are shitting all over them saying stuff like "wow, no information".
So idiotic, this is actually quite a bit of information.
Come on, this is TL, negative is what people do here. Naz'Gul can say everything is great and people still complain. If Blizzard released all the info, people would complain too. The TL Community loves for it. Reddit is more positive now a days.
It's really making me just not want to come to the site anymore.
The live report threads are fine. The general discussion is pretty worthless now a days. Just filled with negativity no matter what happens.
got to give effort points to the 2 or 3 Sc2 haters in the discussion threads, they maintain atleast 1 post per page to ruin those. But I think by now thy just copy paste from their old posts. Guess in LR threads they get not enough attention so they avoid them. Might explain why LR threads are usually fine.
To stay atleast a bit on topic. Shocked about the Seasonal Finals, I liked them alot. But they have a point that the non WCS events kinda have this roll as well. Especially when everyone needs WCS points.
God I miss the old GSL system..at least after that tournament you had an undisputed best player in the world. MVP vying for his 5th GSL title is so much more interesting than watching him get knocked out of the first rounds of EU because he's playing on terrible server lag :/ When the WCS system was first announced I thought it had so much promise, but I feel like its just been handled so poorly. Blizzard is far too focused on trivial things..they should hire Valve as consultants..now thats a company who knows how to put on a great tournament.
If this reduces the number of tournaments in 2014 in Korea even further by having only 3 WCS and no other GSL or OSL, it will be even worse for the KR scene than it already is.
On October 15 2013 11:25 Survivor61316 wrote: God I miss the old GSL system..at least after that tournament you had an undisputed best player in the world. MVP vying for his 5th GSL title is so much more interesting than watching him get knocked out of the first rounds of EU because he's playing on terrible server lag :/ When the WCS system was first announced I thought it had so much promise, but I feel like its just been handled so poorly. Blizzard is far too focused on trivial things..they should hire Valve as consultants..now thats a company who knows how to put on a great tournament.
WCS really killed the hype of GSL for me. It doesn't feel like the best tournament in the world anymore but a just qualifier for another event.
Im not going to watch a lot of SC2 then, the best from NA/EU/KR are only gonna meet once a year at the global final... and sometimes on tierce tournament.
The regional are kinda boring til Ro4... wont have much to watch next year i guess.
On October 15 2013 11:31 j4vz wrote: What ? no season finals ?
Im not going to watch a lot of SC2 then, the best from NA/EU/KR are only gonna meet once a year at the global final... and sometimes on tierce tournament.
The regional are kinda boring til Ro4... wont have much to watch next year i guess.
Or you know, like every few weeks/every month at tournaments like Dreamhack and IEM.
The ladder integration sounds interesting but what needs to happen is an open spectator format.
Aside from the obvious changes that should be made to ladder to make it competitive (like limiting GM ladder spots to 1 per IP or something of that nature, giving a rank dependent amount of WCS points to the GM rank holders at the end of every ladder season), they should work on the transparency of ladder competition.
When I log into battle.net, aside from seeing the usual stuff, I should see a panel that says currently ongoing matches. In that list should be the currently ongoing games between WCS certified accounts and I should have the option of joining an open chat / broadcast channel where I can spectate that game. It takes viewers away from twitch.tv (a good thing given the declining quality of their service) and individual streaming numbers (a bad thing), but then Blizzard just needs to reimburse the players in a proper fashion. I think the great benefit is it strengthens Bnet as a social platform, helps to fix the ghost town that it currently still is, and gets people back on the service.
On October 15 2013 09:31 Clawfinger wrote: Definitely not the announcement people were waiting for, but at least it shows that Blizzard is thinking of a lot about the main suggestions that people have been bringing up. If they are disappointed with viewership then I am somewhat scared for the future because nothing is being done to bring more players into the game at the moment.
I work in a large automaker. I have a few co-workers that we know don't work much. Whenever they are asked to show what they've done concerning this or that, instead of saying they didn't work on it, they keep saying " we were initially thinking about changing that.... " internally discussing " ... etc
it's just like in the WoL era when we were challenging them on key issues, like infestors or pathing, and all they kept saying were "this was discussed internally"... It doesn't mean shit, and they don't need to show the actual work they've done. My guess is that they don't really care about it, sadly.
On October 15 2013 10:39 KrazyTrumpet wrote: lol, reading through most of these comments is making me sad. They are making efforts to incorporate a lot of the things we've wanted, and people are shitting all over them saying stuff like "wow, no information".
So idiotic, this is actually quite a bit of information.
Come on, this is TL, negative is what people do here. Naz'Gul can say everything is great and people still complain. If Blizzard released all the info, people would complain too. The TL Community loves for it. Reddit is more positive now a days.
It's really making me just not want to come to the site anymore.
The live report threads are fine. The general discussion is pretty worthless now a days. Just filled with negativity no matter what happens.
Since when are the LR threads fine? o-O As for the general section it's usual the same stuff rehashed most of the time and there's not much to gain from it. :V
If we don't get some kind of stronger region lock you can say good-bye to the entire foreign scene. A few koreans in NA/EU region is good. It spurs competition. It increases the level of play. But if you have every top spot taken by a non-region native? Bad for the scene. Bad for storylines. Bad for any semi-pro player trying to work their way up.
When Koreans make a home in NA, they are readily adopted- look at Polt and Violet.
On October 15 2013 09:09 giririsss wrote: Only having 3 seasons?
And then not having a season final?
So it goes from 7 tournaments to 4.
Fail.
Utter fail.
No wonder GSL are looking elsewhere for new e-sports, this is basically the last nail in the coffin.
User was warned for this post
you maybe under estimating Blizzard. what if say: instead of a grand slam final each season, they had a grand slam world region where the top 32 competed in an actual final season instead of a weekend bash. i think that would be so sick. they HAVE to have a world final, its gonna be exciting to see how its done.
In 2012, we had 4 GSLs as the undisputed world premier tournament, with the ocasional foreigner drawing storylines. And an OSL. We also had 2012 as true national and regional tournaments, with an exciting end of they year cup. We had stand-alone events where foreigners faced koreans.
Now we have a mess, and it's not likely going to change.
There is no single premier tournament, as in a tournament where only the very best participate. There is also no true regional tournament outside of Korea. Think about it. The new system butchered all the goals that they were trying to promote. It's insane.
Now we have only 2 GSL and 1 OSL, with a diluted base and no foreigners. In AM and EU, there are koreans from foreign teams and a lot of code-B players taking most of the slots. The seasonal finals are not the 16 best players in the world - it's 6-8 of the best, arguably, all the others are just lucky to be there. Blizzcon will have the same feeling to it. I am at least glad that they are favoring ending the seasonal tournaments.
Whereas there was national WCS and continental WCS, now he have foreigner vs odd koreans. There is no regional vibe to it. The foreigners x koreans storyline was present in old GSL and stand alone events, which, while not extinct, have lost their importance. It makes no sense to reform WCS to promote foreigner vs second-tier koreans.
Thinking about all of this, I can't see how to be against regional-locking, in the minimum based upon residency. It's the only way to have true premier events and true local events, with the end of year tournament and stand-alone events being the mish mash of foreigner vs top koreans. Of course, Korean region should have a much much higher prize pool to estimulate local talent to stay and top foreigner to try their luck in being the best.
Based in this interview, however, I am not expecting any changes.
On October 15 2013 10:39 KrazyTrumpet wrote: lol, reading through most of these comments is making me sad. They are making efforts to incorporate a lot of the things we've wanted, and people are shitting all over them saying stuff like "wow, no information".
So idiotic, this is actually quite a bit of information.
Come on, this is TL, negative is what people do here. Naz'Gul can say everything is great and people still complain. If Blizzard released all the info, people would complain too. The TL Community loves for it. Reddit is more positive now a days.
It's really making me just not want to come to the site anymore.
The live report threads are fine. The general discussion is pretty worthless now a days. Just filled with negativity no matter what happens.
Since when are the LR threads fine? o-O As for the general section it's usual the same stuff rehashed most of the time and there's not much to gain from it. :V
Whining in LR threads is kept to a minimum by mods and a focused topic. Plus it's people who watch, as opposed to people who just come to hate and only watch a couple of matches when it's near the finals.
This seems like a shrinking investment to the scene.
No more season finals, no new regions, one less season, probably no more prize money, no integration to team league, and more compact WCS events.
Although I can understand that they said they want to give more room for non-WCS events, it's uncertain that it will be better for the scene if WCS is smaller.
2010-2012 were great even without WCS, but things change, so not sure if 2014 will be great with a smaller WCS.
On October 15 2013 11:25 Survivor61316 wrote: God I miss the old GSL system..at least after that tournament you had an undisputed best player in the world. MVP vying for his 5th GSL title is so much more interesting than watching him get knocked out of the first rounds of EU because he's playing on terrible server lag :/ When the WCS system was first announced I thought it had so much promise, but I feel like its just been handled so poorly. Blizzard is far too focused on trivial things..they should hire Valve as consultants..now thats a company who knows how to put on a great tournament.
WCS really killed the hype of GSL for me. It doesn't feel like the best tournament in the world anymore but a just qualifier for another event.
I feel the same way. GSL was the best of the best, it had the greatest players competing for the greatest reward. Now it's still fun to watch don't get me wrong, but it does very much feel like it's just a qualifier. I wish NASL, MLG, and GOMTV still had all their individual events.
On October 15 2013 12:08 bertu wrote: In 2012, we had 4 GSLs as the undisputed world premier tournament, with the ocasional foreigner drawing storylines. And an OSL. We also had 2012 as true national and regional tournaments, with an exciting end of they year cup. We had stand-alone events where foreigners faced koreans.
Now we have a mess, and it's not likely going to change.
There is no single premier tournament, as in a tournament where only the very best participate. There is also no true regional tournament outside of Korea. Think about it. The new system butchered all the goals that they were trying to promote. It's insane.
Now we have only 2 GSL and 1 OSL, with a diluted base and no foreigners. In AM and EU, there are koreans from foreign teams and a lot of code-B players taking most of the slots. The seasonal finals are not the 16 best players in the world - it's 6-8 of the best, arguably, all the others are just lucky to be there. Blizzcon will have the same feeling to it. I am at least glad that they are favoring ending the seasonal tournaments.
Whereas there was national WCS and continental WCS, now he have foreigner vs odd koreans. There is no regional vibe to it. The foreigners x koreans storyline was present in old GSL and stand alone events, which, while not extinct, have lost their importance. It makes no sense to reform WCS to promote foreigner vs second-tier koreans.
Thinking about all of this, I can't see how to be against regional-locking, in the minimum based upon residency. It's the only way to have true premier events and true local events, with the end of year tournament and stand-alone events being the mish mash of foreigner vs top koreans. Of course, Korean region should have a much much higher prize pool to estimulate local talent to stay and top foreigner to try their luck in being the best.
Based in this interview, however, I am not expecting any changes.
I think people are focusing on what WCS will be doing less, when they should look at it as it'll be non-WCS events doing more. Personally, I like these (supposed) changes.
On October 15 2013 12:09 larse wrote: This seems like a shrinking investment to the scene.
No more season finals, no new regions, one less season, probably no more prize money, no integration to team league, and more compact WCS events.
Although I can understand that they said they want to give more room for non-WCS events, it's uncertain that it will be better for the scene if WCS is smaller.
2010-2012 were great even without WCS, but things change, so not sure if 2014 will be great with a smaller WCS.
Or opening up space for others. The reason are so few leagues is that WCS takes up so much space.
The Season final were uninteresting and not very motivating for the players after Season 1. Maybe a couple people who make it to Season 3 finals have a chance for BlizzCon if they win the finals. And we get to basically rewatch the Ro6 of each region all over again.
Dropping the Season finals and more emphasize on LAN events in between seasons is great news. Sadly we not not see MLG pick SC2 again. Hopefully Redbull picks up the NA scene.
On October 15 2013 12:08 bertu wrote: In 2012, we had 4 GSLs as the undisputed world premier tournament, with the ocasional foreigner drawing storylines. And an OSL.
It was 5 GSLs and an OSL actually. And a Blizzard cup from GOMTV.
Even though any answer Blizzard could provide -- short of bringing back BW or completely overhauling SC2 -- would do nothing, I wish they were asked about how they want to approach the unstable (i.e. dying) Korean scene.
While the WCS system does certainly affect the scene, the biggest things holding it back is the game itself. Of course, this applies to the global/foreign scene, too.
So much negativity here. This Q&A was good and answered a lot of things. Well done, Blizzard.
For those of you who don't know how to read this kind of official/political texts, here's a simplified rundown on things it actually said as I understood it:
1. There will be a region lock. The exact rules are not decided yet. 2. Season finals will be removed to give more credit to regional finals and create space for other global tournaments (and build hype for world finals). 3. WCS point system will be reworked to promote more events/storylines
All these things are good things. Now lets just wait for the detailed version before we get the torches and pitchforks.
On October 15 2013 12:08 bertu wrote: In 2012, we had 4 GSLs as the undisputed world premier tournament, with the ocasional foreigner drawing storylines. And an OSL.
It was 5 GSLs and an OSL actually. And a Blizzard cup from GOMTV.
And that might have been to much. Times change and I remember being totally over whelmed with SC2 through most of 2012.
On October 15 2013 12:08 bertu wrote: In 2012, we had 4 GSLs as the undisputed world premier tournament, with the ocasional foreigner drawing storylines. And an OSL.
It was 5 GSLs and an OSL actually. And a Blizzard cup from GOMTV.
And that might have been to much. Times change and I remember being totally over whelmed with SC2 through most of 2012.
On October 15 2013 10:39 KrazyTrumpet wrote: lol, reading through most of these comments is making me sad. They are making efforts to incorporate a lot of the things we've wanted, and people are shitting all over them saying stuff like "wow, no information".
So idiotic, this is actually quite a bit of information.
Come on, this is TL, negative is what people do here. Naz'Gul can say everything is great and people still complain. If Blizzard released all the info, people would complain too. The TL Community loves for it. Reddit is more positive now a days.
It's really making me just not want to come to the site anymore.
The live report threads are fine. The general discussion is pretty worthless now a days. Just filled with negativity no matter what happens.
Since when are the LR threads fine? o-O As for the general section it's usual the same stuff rehashed most of the time and there's not much to gain from it. :V
Whining in LR threads is kept to a minimum by mods and a focused topic. Plus it's people who watch, as opposed to people who just come to hate and only watch a couple of matches when it's near the finals.
Dude there is always whining in the LRs. That's why every other LR a mod has to step in with a note at the top lol. `\('.')/' Not like times have changed that much.
On October 15 2013 12:08 bertu wrote: In 2012, we had 4 GSLs as the undisputed world premier tournament, with the ocasional foreigner drawing storylines. And an OSL.
It was 5 GSLs and an OSL actually. And a Blizzard cup from GOMTV.
And that might have been to much. Times change and I remember being totally over whelmed with SC2 through most of 2012.
Nobody put a gun to your head to watch it all.
Indeed it was a stupid amount of SC2 with the WCS. Just a ridiculous amount.
WCS won't save Starcraft. The game and players need to do that. People will watch Starcraft when they want to watch Starcraft as this week at IEM showed (with more than 100,000 concurrent viewers at one point). The game is still a bit too volitile and until that is fixed, we will continue to see players fall just as fast as they rose.
TBH I wish Blizzard would feed money and support into pro league. People gathered around their teams and players in pro league. The finals were huge. I think that is more important than just individual tournaments.
On October 15 2013 12:08 bertu wrote: In 2012, we had 4 GSLs as the undisputed world premier tournament, with the ocasional foreigner drawing storylines. And an OSL.
It was 5 GSLs and an OSL actually. And a Blizzard cup from GOMTV.
And that might have been to much. Times change and I remember being totally over whelmed with SC2 through most of 2012.
Nobody put a gun to your head to watch it all.
That doesn't change the fact that there was a clear over saturation of content. Which can definitely be a bad thing.
They want to expand the viewer base but how do they intend to do that? For such a small player base compared to LoL or DotA2, SC2 has a very large viewership percentage. The only way to grow it any more is to get more people playing SC2.
And that inevitably makes you look towards F2P multiplayer...
I hope they do something for the Chinese scene. They could allow Chinese-only tournaments to count for WCS points or something. I really think they(or maybe combining China with SEA) deserve their own region though.
On October 15 2013 12:09 larse wrote: This seems like a shrinking investment to the scene.
Blizzard offers 1,000X more support than any other RTS game receives from its makers. However, the amount of support they are giving SC2 is decreasing.
Blizzard's apologists can continue to hide behind the "too much saturation" excuse for only so long. There is hardly anything happening after Blizzcon is over. Artosis is gonna be 1 damn good Hearthstone player come 2014!
I think SC2 is great fun. I appreciate Blizzard's work in the RTS genre... but i'm not some "Starstruck fan". i can see what is going on.
And to be brutally transparent about it... Starcraft and "RTS" is Blizzard's #3 money maker. They've got bigger fish to fry. Its not Blizzard's responsibility to prop up a non-viable industry called "SC2 eSports".
Thanks for the Q&A session, although it didn't tell us much other than "Blizzard's eSports philosophy".
On October 15 2013 12:49 Iodem wrote: I hope they do something for the Chinese scene. They could allow Chinese-only tournaments to count for WCS points or something. I really think they(or maybe combining China with SEA) deserve their own region though.
China is Blizzard's 1 legit shot at fostering growth in the RTS genre.
On October 15 2013 12:08 bertu wrote: In 2012, we had 4 GSLs as the undisputed world premier tournament, with the ocasional foreigner drawing storylines. And an OSL.
It was 5 GSLs and an OSL actually. And a Blizzard cup from GOMTV.
And that might have been to much. Times change and I remember being totally over whelmed with SC2 through most of 2012.
Nobody put a gun to your head to watch it all.
No, the gun was to GSL's head, and they needed everyone to watch every match.
I would say, do as lol does and leave korea alone. Let korea have OSL and GSL at the same time. so the koreans will be more inclined to stay in korea. with double the players more will not want to leave. other than that i like it
On October 15 2013 12:08 bertu wrote: In 2012, we had 4 GSLs as the undisputed world premier tournament, with the ocasional foreigner drawing storylines. And an OSL.
It was 5 GSLs and an OSL actually. And a Blizzard cup from GOMTV.
And that might have been to much. Times change and I remember being totally over whelmed with SC2 through most of 2012.
Nobody put a gun to your head to watch it all.
No, the gun was to GSL's head, and they needed everyone to watch every match.
Is this a joke? GSL is the one who got screwed with 2013 WCS changes. Their tournament got marginalized and turned into a glorified qualifier with half the prize money and their ongoing storyline got destroyed by getting merged with OSL under the WCS flag and some of their star players running off to easier regions.
I would bet GOMTV lost a lot of viewers this year. You can tell from the live report threads.
But wait, 5 GSLs was oversaturation supposedly, right? Somehow people were watching more, and now, even with the shine of a new expansion, they seem to be less interested.
SC2 fans complaining about abundance of contents for their games. #1stworldesportprobs
NEVER complain about more contents. The moment that contents start to disappear is the moment that your game is on the verge of being phased out. EVERY single one of those contents/tournaments are the legs that hold up a scene. The less pillar one industry have, the more fragile it becomes. Its like when a company tries to "refocus" their resources by closing down their divisions. That is not saying that everyone is fine and dandy, that's inferring that the organization is financially under-performing.
On October 15 2013 13:38 Xiphos wrote: SC2 fans complaining about abundance of contents for their games. #1stworldesportprobs
NEVER complain about more contents. The moment that contents start to disappear is the moment that your game is on the verge of being phased out. EVERY single one of those contents/tournaments are the legs that hold up a scene. The less pillar one industry have, the more fragile it becomes. Its like when a company tries to "refocus" their resources by closing down their divisions. That is not saying that everyone is fine and dandy, that's inferring that the organization is financially under-performing.
This isn't true at all. Over-saturation is a problem with businesses that happen all the time. Whether it is stretching a single business to thin by over expanding, or by to many entities entering an emerging market, it is pretty common to see businesses or industries go through these types of cycle.
That doesn't mean what you are saying isn't correct sometimes, but simply assuming that less content = failure and more content = good is not true it is more complicated than that. A lot of it comes to personal preference as well. I think some people would rather see 1 massive tournament giving away 100k, while others would rather see 10 mini tournaments giving away 10k.
Less seasons is not a bad thing, I feel right now like there is way to much content. It is to hard to follow and watch everything and then you miss more than you end up seeing and feel disconnected from the event. It is great that we get high quality games almost every night of the week, but it really is to much.
On October 15 2013 13:38 Xiphos wrote: SC2 fans complaining about abundance of contents for their games. #1stworldesportprobs
NEVER complain about more contents. The moment that contents start to disappear is the moment that your game is on the verge of being phased out. EVERY single one of those contents/tournaments are the legs that hold up a scene. The less pillar one industry have, the more fragile it becomes. Its like when a company tries to "refocus" their resources by closing down their divisions. That is not saying that everyone is fine and dandy, that's inferring that the organization is financially under-performing.
This isn't true at all. Over-saturation is a problem with businesses that happen all the time. Whether it is stretching a single business to thin by over expanding, or by to many entities entering an emerging market, it is pretty common to see businesses or industries go through these types of cycle.
That doesn't mean what you are saying isn't correct sometimes, but simply assuming that less content = failure and more content = good is not true it is more complicated than that. A lot of it comes to personal preference as well. I think some people would rather see 1 massive tournament giving away 100k, while others would rather see 10 mini tournaments giving away 10k.
Less seasons is not a bad thing, I feel right now like there is way to much content. It is to hard to follow and watch everything and then you miss more than you end up seeing and feel disconnected from the event. It is great that we get high quality games almost every night of the week, but it really is to much.
I'm sort of looking at this like how I look at the BW pro scene. It downsized until it diminishes further and further and then finally vanished. And since this is same industry, history can definitely repeats itself.
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Thanks for this i found it kinda hard to extract the informations out of this Q&A.
I dont get why there isn´t a WCS Team league. Most of the money that finance SC2 comes from sponsors which were never supported by wcs because the only thing you could do as a player and a team was T-Shirts and some drinking bottles.
On October 15 2013 08:57 Monochromatic wrote: So much talk of the WCS "Storyline."
Personally, I care more about individual tournaments, not one giant system of tournaments, and I find that having so many for so long really weakens the "storyline" of WCS.
To clarify, Mvp's victory in Europe isn't very meaningful when he gets knocked out of challenger in the same cycle.
The part about extending the "Storyline" to other tournaments makes me worry, although I am glad they are keeping the 3 seasons, rather than have it go all year long.
One quest that I would like to have answered is if they are going to reconsider how many points are distributed from each event; take Dreamhack Valencia. Despite being having the same prizepool, and more participants, it gives less WCS points then every other Dreamhack.
Thank you for your feedback Monochromatic. We think the WCS story-line can and has contributed to individual tournaments in a meaningful way, take for example the recent IEM NY event which took place this past weekend. It made the race to BlizzCon even more exciting with players such as HyuN and NaNiwa fighting for more WCS points.
We are definitely reexamining the point system and will be re-balancing the distribution of points for all WCS tiered events in 2014.
On October 15 2013 09:00 SinCitta wrote: I am none the wiser. But it looks more like minor improvements instead of the big step that is in my opinion needed to bring the scene forward. Not sure if WCS as a whole is still a good concept with Blizzard's reluctance to commit more to it.
Hello SinCitta, what are some of the big steps that you think we should be considering to bring the scene forward?
It would be helpful if Blizzard could share more details about their reasoning behind going from 4 to 3 seasons and eliminating Season Finals. I understand that theoretically it's "to free up room for more non-WCS events," but has this decision been taken with some sort of confirmation that there WILL BE more non-WCS events than there were this year, or is that just an assumption Blizzard is making? More DreamHacks and IEMs are great but will there be GSLs/OSLs outside of WCS KR? If we're only having three GSLs/OSLs combined the entire year in 2014, that's pretty sad... Even this four this year didn't feel like very many, and that was with three Season Finals acting as additional "mini-tournaments."
I'm a little surprised at the focus on non-WCS events given how much emphasis is given in Blizzard's Q&A to the "storylines" that develop. The problem with IEMs and DreamHacks, and what makes them much less interesting to me than WCS seasons, is that there's no continuity between them (except the annual finals). You could have entire different players qualifying for one than another, there's no storyline at all. At least in WCS you know the top 8 performers are guaranteed to be in the next tournament...
On October 15 2013 08:57 Monochromatic wrote: So much talk of the WCS "Storyline."
Personally, I care more about individual tournaments, not one giant system of tournaments, and I find that having so many for so long really weakens the "storyline" of WCS.
To clarify, Mvp's victory in Europe isn't very meaningful when he gets knocked out of challenger in the same cycle.
The part about extending the "Storyline" to other tournaments makes me worry, although I am glad they are keeping the 3 seasons, rather than have it go all year long.
One quest that I would like to have answered is if they are going to reconsider how many points are distributed from each event; take Dreamhack Valencia. Despite being having the same prizepool, and more participants, it gives less WCS points then every other Dreamhack.
Thank you for your feedback Monochromatic. We think the WCS story-line can and has contributed to individual tournaments in a meaningful way, take for example the recent IEM NY event which took place this past weekend. It made the race to BlizzCon even more exciting with players such as HyuN and NaNiwa fighting for more WCS points.
We are definitely reexamining the point system and will be re-balancing the distribution of points for all WCS tiered events in 2014.
How do you feel about what WCS did to the Korean scene overall. What it did to GSL?
If GSL and OSL are going to continue to alternate for WCS Korea, are you at least considering making OSL change their format from bo1s so that it's consistent with the rest of the system?
On October 15 2013 14:48 Yakikorosu wrote: It would be helpful if Blizzard could share more details about their reasoning behind going from 4 to 3 seasons and eliminating Season Finals. I understand that theoretically it's "to free up room for more non-WCS events," but has this decision been taken with some sort of confirmation that there WILL BE more non-WCS events than there were this year, or is that just an assumption Blizzard is making? More DreamHacks and IEMs are great but will there be GSLs/OSLs outside of WCS KR? If we're only having three GSLs/OSLs combined the entire year in 2014, that's pretty sad... Even this four this year didn't feel like very many, and that was with three Season Finals acting as additional "mini-tournaments."
I'm a little surprised at the focus on non-WCS events given how much emphasis is given in Blizzard's Q&A to the "storylines" that develop. The problem with IEMs and DreamHacks, and what makes them much less interesting to me than WCS seasons, is that there's no continuity between them (except the annual finals). You could have entire different players qualifying for one than another, there's no storyline at all. At least in WCS you know the top 8 performers are guaranteed to be in the next tournament...
WCS felt like it is 1 big tournament that never ended. With challanger league, premier league and qualifiers in 3 regions it was very hard to follow which Tournament is in which state. With that Blizzard wants that the events are more unique and special which sounds pretty reasonable. And the Season Finals felt very anticlimactic for me because it felt more like another offline tournament.
You can look at the "Teaja forfeits his WCS Challanger league match" thread why this makes sense. He is a huge fan favorite, on one of the most popular teams and one of the players with the most coverage in SC2 but still 50% of this thread is "what Teaja should play today?".
On October 15 2013 09:06 HeavenResign wrote: Some of these things are clear improvements for people to be happy about, like cutting the global season finals and letting the region finals be a little more special, having more of the competition off-line is good, I take it that means all of the premiere leagues will be off-line.
Jaedong and Polt competing in WCS America, or MC and Jürgen
That part is the most interesting to me that she chose those players when talking about region lock, because barring jaedong, aren't Polt, MC, and MVP living in the region of the WCS they're playing in? Under the region-lock system most people seem to want those players would still be playing in the respective WCS regions they've been playing in for 2013. Whether she mentioned those names on purpose or if it was an oversight is something I'm not sure of
EDIT: I guess MVP hasn't been staying in Europe, oops
Hello HeavenResign, I was trying to compare the difference between doing a harsh region-lock by requiring citizenship (valid passport) within a region or doing something less restrictive, such as enforcing some residency restrictions (living in the region but not being a national citizen). We're still gauging what people are asking for when they request for region-lock and if that means citizenship requirement. What would you like to see?
On October 15 2013 09:06 HeavenResign wrote: Some of these things are clear improvements for people to be happy about, like cutting the global season finals and letting the region finals be a little more special, having more of the competition off-line is good, I take it that means all of the premiere leagues will be off-line.
Jaedong and Polt competing in WCS America, or MC and Jürgen
That part is the most interesting to me that she chose those players when talking about region lock, because barring jaedong, aren't Polt, MC, and MVP living in the region of the WCS they're playing in? Under the region-lock system most people seem to want those players would still be playing in the respective WCS regions they've been playing in for 2013. Whether she mentioned those names on purpose or if it was an oversight is something I'm not sure of
EDIT: I guess MVP hasn't been staying in Europe, oops
Hello HeavenResign, I was trying to compare the difference between doing a harsh region-lock by requiring citizenship (valid passport) within a region or doing something less restrictive, such as enforcing some residency restrictions (living in the region but not being a national citizen). We're still gauging what people are asking for when they request for region-lock and if that means citizenship requirement. What would you like to see?
On October 15 2013 13:38 Xiphos wrote: SC2 fans complaining about abundance of contents for their games. #1stworldesportprobs
NEVER complain about more contents. The moment that contents start to disappear is the moment that your game is on the verge of being phased out. EVERY single one of those contents/tournaments are the legs that hold up a scene. The less pillar one industry have, the more fragile it becomes. Its like when a company tries to "refocus" their resources by closing down their divisions. That is not saying that everyone is fine and dandy, that's inferring that the organization is financially under-performing.
This isn't true at all. Over-saturation is a problem with businesses that happen all the time. Whether it is stretching a single business to thin by over expanding, or by to many entities entering an emerging market, it is pretty common to see businesses or industries go through these types of cycle.
That doesn't mean what you are saying isn't correct sometimes, but simply assuming that less content = failure and more content = good is not true it is more complicated than that. A lot of it comes to personal preference as well. I think some people would rather see 1 massive tournament giving away 100k, while others would rather see 10 mini tournaments giving away 10k.
Less seasons is not a bad thing, I feel right now like there is way to much content. It is to hard to follow and watch everything and then you miss more than you end up seeing and feel disconnected from the event. It is great that we get high quality games almost every night of the week, but it really is to much.
If the aim is for the highest amount of concurrent viewers over total viewers then I'd fall back on the major LANs as your circuit. In other words, we'd have events every few to several weeks on weekends like yesteryear only now they'd all be connected. It's all about continuity and the build. At the end of the day each brand can still go strong and have it's own identity. Rather than having a WCS system which takes place every several hours. Give people reason to stay up on the weekends to watch the majors. A counter-argument to this would be: doesn't the LCS take place on weekends? (You always have to keep track of your competitors and the overlap). Yep, that's why the organizers should make it their priority to land these titles at their tournaments because at the end of the day it increases their concurrent viewers as long as the developers agree. Put more butts in the seats and people at home can watch split screen. If you have the usual suspects for your League it helps build their brand recognition at the same time.
As for USvBleakill, That's what I'd do anyway. I would get rid of the GSTL & PL and make one big league where The Committee composed of the Blizzard eSports Team and all our major broadcasters/organizers (MLG, IEM, ESL, DH, GOMTV, OGN, NASL, Red Bull, O'Gaming TV, etc.) would accredit teams into the League. In other words, you have to meet a certain criteria in order to make the cut and all the teams would compete at Major Lans.
On October 15 2013 15:01 USvBleakill wrote: WCS felt like it is 1 big tournament that never ended.
Wow, I guess people have different views, but that exact thing is the reason I really LIKED WCS... I do agree there was too much Challenger League content at times (which I handily solved by not watching Challenger League except the KR U&Ds). I don't really understand what's so much better about LESS Starcraft. And unless there's going to be GSLs/OSLs outside of WCS KR or IEMs/DreamHacks every few weeks, that's exactly what we'll have with fewer seasons and no Season Finals.
Not doomsaying or anything, I'm actually hopeful it'll all work out, but until someone comes in and points me to some cool stuff they're filling all this new space they have from paring down WCS, it's hard to be excited...
I have mixed feeling on removing the "season final" events. I did feel like they undermined winning the regional finals (it made them just feel like qualifiers for another tournament), so this will make each region championship feel more important. On the other hand I really liked the high level of those tournaments. Finally, this will probably be really good for the non WCS events as they'll have more opportunity to hold events.
This might also have a huge effect on WCS points (and where to earn them)!
Personally as a player I think these seem like really good steps to improving WCS, especially adding some light form of region lock (personally I think residency is best) and having each respective regions ladder feeding into WCS in some form to help make each ladder competitive. Thanks for being so transparent Kim!
To me it felt very discombobulated. I'm looking at the pieces of the whole and at the end of the day a lot of it just doesn't make sense when it came to the formatting, branding and the seasons. Finals of finals? You get what I mean. I can see why they would take those out, lol. We need better continuity. I don't like looking at sections. If I had it my way I would have the same players throughout a year. These are your Pro's who will compete for the Cup. More games between the pros more regularly. More kicks at the can. Accredited teams earning slots for their players. All that good stuff. Let them build more stats against one another. Let them build stories together.
On October 15 2013 15:14 y0su wrote: I have mixed feeling on removing the "season final" events. I did feel like they undermined winning the regional finals (it made them just feel like qualifiers for another tournament), so this will make each region championship feel more important. On the other hand I really liked the high level of those tournaments. Finally, this will probably be really good for the non WCS events as they'll have more opportunity to hold events.
This might also have a huge effect on WCS points (and where to earn them)!
Technically that's what they were and it did diminish the GSL/OSL.
As long as I'm not seeing WCS qualifier matches the day after the finals, I'm good. The scene needs a slight break; ever other "sport" in the world doesn't have games after the big finale, why starcraft?
On October 15 2013 15:21 looknohands119 wrote: HOLYSHIT! Why is no one talking about 3 leagues per region? That would mean that GSL and OSL are coming back!
Sorry, that's not what that means. It's not 3 leagues per reason, it's just 3 leagues, like we have now. NA, EU, KR. You can tell because prior to that bullet it says that this will "still" exist (i.e., it already exists now).
On October 15 2013 09:06 HeavenResign wrote: Some of these things are clear improvements for people to be happy about, like cutting the global season finals and letting the region finals be a little more special, having more of the competition off-line is good, I take it that means all of the premiere leagues will be off-line.
Jaedong and Polt competing in WCS America, or MC and Jürgen
That part is the most interesting to me that she chose those players when talking about region lock, because barring jaedong, aren't Polt, MC, and MVP living in the region of the WCS they're playing in? Under the region-lock system most people seem to want those players would still be playing in the respective WCS regions they've been playing in for 2013. Whether she mentioned those names on purpose or if it was an oversight is something I'm not sure of
EDIT: I guess MVP hasn't been staying in Europe, oops
Hello HeavenResign, I was trying to compare the difference between doing a harsh region-lock by requiring citizenship (valid passport) within a region or doing something less restrictive, such as enforcing some residency restrictions (living in the region but not being a national citizen). We're still gauging what people are asking for when they request for region-lock and if that means citizenship requirement. What would you like to see?
I'd personally like to see a "soft" region lock, perhaps with a residency requirement. This way the number of Koreans in AM could be reduced, while still keeping some of the strong fan favorites (Polt, I'd imagine Jaedong could live in the EG san fran house, etc.)
Any maybe this lock wouldn't have to apply to people living in an area without it's own dedicated region (Australia, China, Taiwan).
On October 15 2013 15:01 USvBleakill wrote: WCS felt like it is 1 big tournament that never ended.
Wow, I guess people have different views, but that exact thing is the reason I really LIKED WCS... I do agree there was too much Challenger League content at times (which I handily solved by not watching Challenger League except the KR U&Ds). I don't really understand what's so much better about LESS Starcraft. And unless there's going to be GSLs/OSLs outside of WCS KR or IEMs/DreamHacks every few weeks, that's exactly what we'll have with fewer seasons and no Season Finals.
Not doomsaying or anything, I'm actually hopeful it'll all work out, but until someone comes in and points me to some cool stuff they're filling all this new space they have from paring down WCS, it's hard to be excited...
The Problem with that is that it is very hard to generate hype with that. To fully understand who is playing and which round in which region is going on right now you either have to watch a lot of wcs or inform yourself on the side or Liquidpedia. The System is too complex to be on all the time for the average, casual viewer.
If you look at other sports like football or Formula1 that have long seasons they all have relative easy point and league systems.
I would also say that residency is the best "lock", as it makes it possible for players like Polt to play, as well as other programmers who pursue higher education (Polt) to keep playing. As a viewer(I cannot speak for all viewers), I claim that the addition of Polt to WCS AM was a benefit: it attracted more viewers and followers (fans of Polt).
I'm seeing a lot of comments from people who are disappointed that we did not share the exact plans for WCS 2014. To clarify, we did not intend for this to be an announcement, or an announcement of an announcement for that matter
The reality is that we are still finalizing the details of WCS 2014 with our partners, however, we did not want to wait until everything was finalized before letting you know some of the things we were discussing. We want to give the community an opportunity to provide feedback before we locked down the specific details. We have outlined most of our plans and ideas in some of our answers, but haven't fully committed to any of the decisions because we want to hear from the community. Our goal is to confirm and announce the plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon. That gives you at least a week to give us your input on what we've shared!
On October 15 2013 15:22 StarStruck wrote: Yakikorosu,
To me it felt very discombobulated. I'm looking at the pieces of the whole and at the end of the day a lot of it just doesn't make sense when it came to the formatting, branding and the seasons. Finals of finals? You get what I mean. I can see why they would take those out, lol. We need better continuity. I don't like looking at sections. If I had it my way I would have the same players throughout a year. These are your Pro's who will compete for the Cup. More games between the pros more regularly. More kicks at the can. Accredited teams earning slots for their players. All that good stuff. Let them build more stats against one another. Let them build stories together.
I wasn't a huge fan of the Season Finals either, and I agree that there's too much Challenger League, but you can't just select one group of players and say that for the whole year NO ONE ELSE gets to compete in major tournaments. That would completely kill the scene, players would just quit if they fail to make it in rather than wait a whole year to try again.
My preference would be:
Kill Challenger League (except in KR) and replace it with open qualifiers (tying to ladder in some manner is a good idea), but retain the top 16 players each season, not just top 8. Kill Season Finals (except Grand Final at Blizzcon). Use the extra time to have more WCS Premiere League seasons--5 or 6 per year.
Obviously that's not happening, so I'll just sit and hope something cool develops for 2014.
And I also want to thank Kim for being so open and participating on the forums. Please don't let the obligatory flamers and doomsayers get you down.
Something something, PR bullshit. Sorry you have to brave the masses of angry TLers Kim, I doubt most people blame you though, you're just doing your job.
On October 15 2013 15:21 looknohands119 wrote: HOLYSHIT! Why is no one talking about 3 leagues per region? That would mean that GSL and OSL are coming back!
Sorry, that's not what that means. It's not 3 leagues per reason, it's just 3 leagues, like we have now. NA, EU, KR. You can tell because prior to that bullet it says that this will "still" exist (i.e., it already exists now).
I'm not talking about 3 wcs leagues per region. I'm talking about 3 leagues per region (where WCS is one of the 3 for each region). That is definitely the way that was worded. And that definitely seems to indicate that GSL and OSL are coming back. Who would be the third league in NA? Probably NASL or MLG. Who knows, but either way, its a pretty exciting prospect.
On October 15 2013 15:21 looknohands119 wrote: HOLYSHIT! Why is no one talking about 3 leagues per region? That would mean that GSL and OSL are coming back!
Sorry, that's not what that means. It's not 3 leagues per reason, it's just 3 leagues, like we have now. NA, EU, KR. You can tell because prior to that bullet it says that this will "still" exist (i.e., it already exists now).
I'm not talking about 3 wcs leagues per region. I'm talking about 3 leagues per region (where WCS is one of the 3 for each region). That is definitely the way that was worded. And that definitely seems to indicate that GSL and OSL are coming back. Who would be the third league in NA? Probably NASL or MLG. Who knows, but either way, its a pretty exciting prospect.
If you are right, I'd be very happy, but unfortunately I think that part of the Q&A is just not worded perfectly. Here's what it says:
"The following will still exist: There will be three leagues operating in each of the existing regions – America, Europe, and Korea"
Grammatically, I agree that this reads like there are three leagues in EACH OF the three regions, but I think the statement should have been written with a comma after the word "leagues." So the "three leagues" are just the three WCS regions. Two reasons why I'm pretty sure my reading is right:
1) The bolded words "will still exist." So the Q&A is referring to something that already exists NOW. There are definitely not three leagues in each region now.
2) If Blizzard was really announcing that there'll be three separate leagues in EACH region (so nine leagues total), that would be a centerpoint of the post, as that would be a huge announcement. It wouldn't be buried in a bullet halfway through the Q&A.
On October 15 2013 15:21 looknohands119 wrote: HOLYSHIT! Why is no one talking about 3 leagues per region? That would mean that GSL and OSL are coming back!
Sorry, that's not what that means. It's not 3 leagues per reason, it's just 3 leagues, like we have now. NA, EU, KR. You can tell because prior to that bullet it says that this will "still" exist (i.e., it already exists now).
I'm not talking about 3 wcs leagues per region. I'm talking about 3 leagues per region (where WCS is one of the 3 for each region). That is definitely the way that was worded. And that definitely seems to indicate that GSL and OSL are coming back. Who would be the third league in NA? Probably NASL or MLG. Who knows, but either way, its a pretty exciting prospect.
If you are right, I'd be very happy, but unfortunately I think that part of the Q&A is just not worded perfectly. Here's what it says:
"The following will still exist: There will be three leagues operating in each of the existing regions – America, Europe, and Korea"
Grammatically, I agree that this reads like there are three leagues in EACH OF the three regions, but I think the statement should have been written with a comma after the word "leagues." So the "three leagues" are just the three WCS regions. Two reasons why I'm pretty sure my reading is right:
1) The bolded words "will still exist." So the Q&A is referring to something that already exists NOW. There are definitely not three leagues in each region now.
2) If Blizzard was really announcing that there'll be three separate leagues in EACH region (so nine leagues total), that would be a centerpoint of the post, as that would be a huge announcement. It wouldn't be buried in a bullet halfway through the Q&A.
Yes, I think some clarification is necessary here. Kim, can you clear this wording question up for us?
I'm surprised so many people are for regions that are locked by residency. To me, you're either on one side of the fence or the other. Regions locked by residency only solves the problem of teams deliberating over what players to pick up... It's one of those politically correct answers you give, because you don't want to seem extreme/bigoted. When you realize full well, that while it might not be a huge deal the first year, eventually you're going to end up with the same amount of Koreans if not more, and you will have to make another decision. Kicking the can down the road or w/e lame term...
I'd rather people be opposed to any kind of region lock than act like that's the solution.
I just want to know how they're going to ensure their players can get Visas, or if they can't get their visa by a certain deadline, promote players who can legally travel instead of walkovers.
On October 15 2013 15:39 Liquid`Ret wrote: I think that TL.net needs to be a place for constructive feedback, all of this hate is not contributing anything.
Blizzard is right here in this thread, use it!
Truth. This is one of the few times we KNOW one of the decision makers in Blizzard eSports is reading the thread. This is not a time to go full youtube comments. (Or even reddit comments.)
That being said, I think we're most interested in the region locking portion, and what changes are being made to the feed in to Premier League.
I think the Challenger league still could work but it might require (in the AM/EU regions at least) more of the "feed in to the feeder" tournaments, like the conglomeration of events that makes up "Code B" in the GSL. It's fine to have a Premier (Code S), a Challenger (Code A), but it needs that lower level underpinning of the Code B to support it. Some things I've seen give hope that maybe in the AM region that could happen, but only if we get more people running small tournaments (like, for example, the guys at the LA car dealership (awesome, btw)) and having those provide opportunities into the bigger tournaments. Let's face it, even WCS "Tier 2/3" tournaments are not going to be lace with unknowns because these events need big names to draw people to support their events. Smaller, more regional events would be good, but we need people to put them together and possibly support from Blizzard to help make it worthwhile. (I have no idea how that would work. Might be why it hasn't happened yet - there are still details to work out in making it happen and finding people that want to get it running. There are only so many people willing to organize a TESPA or NESL or CSL.)
As for region locking - I like a soft region lock, with it only applying to players that have a region - or finding a way to get assistance to the people that are "regionless" to enable them to compete in the region they want to join. There are obvious legal hurdles for anyone trying a long term stay in foreign territory (visas) but also accommodation and travel costs. Increasing the amount of offline play would be cool, but you have to keep in mind the costs in trying to put even one person in one place for a long time period. (If you want to avoid the weekend or week long sprint to the finals we get now.) That's probably a subject best discussed between Blizzard and team owners, though - nothing I can really add to it except I hope these considerations are being kept in mind.
On October 15 2013 15:51 Gospadin wrote: I just want to know how they're going to ensure their players can get Visas, or if they can't get their visa by a certain deadline, promote players who can legally travel instead of walkovers.
That's where requiring that the players live in the region in which they play in is a good idea ;D
On October 15 2013 15:51 Gospadin wrote: I just want to know how they're going to ensure their players can get Visas, or if they can't get their visa by a certain deadline, promote players who can legally travel instead of walkovers.
That's where requiring that the players live in the region in which they play in is a good idea ;D
To be honest, I'd have to sit down with an immigration lawyer to figure out what visas apply to whom and if they're correct for the activities they're engaging in - I mean Polt is in the US studying, but what visa is in play? There are restrictions on student visas, and I have no idea where "professional StarCraft player" falls in that context. Could EG bring Jaedong in on an H1-B visa? (I think, out of most uses that one gets, he's probably a poster child for "can't fill with local citizen due to lack of qualified candidates".)
On October 15 2013 15:51 Gospadin wrote: I just want to know how they're going to ensure their players can get Visas, or if they can't get their visa by a certain deadline, promote players who can legally travel instead of walkovers.
That reminds me one specific suggestion I have to improve WCS in 2014: when a player drops out of a WCS event beforehand, don't just give players walkovers! Do like GSL always did and hold some kind of "special tournament" to fill the spot. It doesn't have to be offline or casted. This happened all the time in NA Challenger League in particular, with people qualifying and dropping out or retiring, but I'd do it in all cases. So for example, when viOLet couldn't attend the RO16, hold a special single elimination bracket tournament among the 8 players who finished third in the RO32 and give them viOLet's spot. I know it would be on short notice, and might not be the most pristine competition, but it's better than having walkovers!
I wish Blizzard would drop the UFC style of trying to promote themselves are the owners of "the premier" league. I think the hate is being generated by Blizzards hostile take over of the scene. I've severely lost a lot of attention for starcraft because I can't watch tournaments every weekend like we use to. I'm tired of seeing the same pros in the Premier/Challenger leagues.I want new blood, whether in Blizzards leagues or any other tournaments. I think everyone is forgetting that in order to sustain the scene we need to look to the future rather then nurturing the past or even present stars.
This upcoming lock should be based upon citizenship. Residency is not enough. I don't want to see TB's and ACER's horde of players to come and win WCS EU / NA
What I'd like to see is Destiny, Suppy, State, Catz, Hendralisk and Mewby fighting on equal footing for the NA spot EVEN if this is going to be for sure a less skilled tournament than WCS KR/EU. If you think they don't deserve the same amount of money as Koreans, I'am sure they wouldn't mind if they had just the chance to compete and shine. This is how the region can grow and improve. You won't improve when you know you're doomed to be beaten by Korean players in Challenger league ro64.
EU is already well balanced. But it should be the same.
Give half the of the current prizepool to EU/NA, they don't need/deserve as much as KR, but it will still be better than pre WCS. Give more to Korean players and force them to play there.
Seem like reasonable changes/ plans, and I like the idea of slightly less seasons, I feel there is way too much SC2 at the moment.
If they region lock then its up to the foreigner players to improve their skill considerably or NE and EU will simply wither and die, or will they use it as a free paycheck? Without competition i cant see them improving tbh.
Also what happens in the grand finals, its going to be a complete joke watching KR region stomp NA and EU into the ground every time?
On October 15 2013 15:39 Liquid`Ret wrote: I think that TL.net needs to be a place for constructive feedback, all of this hate is not contributing anything.
Blizzard is right here in this thread, use it!
Wait so this "kimaphan" is real? Haha i was pretty sure that is just a trolling guy with so few posts and was wondering why the account wasn't banned. Maybe give her a Blizzard tag
Ok then i have a question or rather a concern: Does Blizzard hate teams?
Or at least dont care that much about them. It was right at the beginning of WCS were it seems to be a lot of confusion because Blizzard mainly contacted players and "ignored" the teams. But even besides organizational things the exposition of Teams and their sponsors is not supported by WCS. At the Finals at gamescon it was "Teaja" not "Liquid Teaja" why? I can only guess because i am obviously not part of the esport business but i think that most of the money still comes from sponsors. And sponsoring is a tough field in marketing because it is hard to calculate the value for the company. So why not helping the teams with showing the main sponsors at the beginning of WCS games. Or some "premium team sponsors" shown on stage.
I can only imagine how hard it is to gather money for something like esports with business models that are fighting for a "black zero" but why not help the Teams to expose their sponsors and give them weapons like "hey Razor your investment is worth it, X viewers were able to see your logo for Y times and Z minutes because Teaja is awesome and made it to the ro4".
I don't know if you've already read some of the blog, reddit, and etc. posts about region locking, but I have very strong feelings about the way that WCS has been on it's policies with region locking. As a viewer and a fan, I disagree with the arguments that have been presented, especially the uniqueness of players. As I watched WCS AM 2013, I couldn't help but feel like I was watching as some people have said,"A mini WCS KR," with 6 Korean ro8 players in Season 1, 5 Koreans in Season 2, and as for Season 3, what I hope to see is less than a majority of ro8 players. It is very monotonous and doesn't help increase the enjoyability of watching the region that I belong too. Although the level of play is undeniably high and each korean player has a personality, I can't help but want an increase of AM player personalities who I've been following through the years and can root for rather then watch a KR dominated region. As for the level of play, players in AM haven't been able to obtain a place in the qualifiers for the region to even make it into Challenger League. As a couple players have put it: it's been overrun with Code A dropouts." This certainly won't help the AM scene any more then it will help the KR scene. On one hand, the qualifiers don't allow players to get a chance to prove themselves, and on the other hand, KR loses valuable players that could have otherwise become better players.
glad they aren't doing a full region lock. Its players like jaedong, and the axiom boys that i keep watching wcs na so much. If they were all gone that would only really leave polt and scarlett that i like... A few slots for new blood though sounds good.
On October 15 2013 15:39 Liquid`Ret wrote: I think that TL.net needs to be a place for constructive feedback, all of this hate is not contributing anything.
Blizzard is right here in this thread, use it!
So good to hear some reason in here for once... I hope people can take your word for it, (regarding wcs, you being a progamer and all) and try to focus on the constructive criticism instead of just hating.
Also
On October 15 2013 15:53 felisconcolori wrote: Truth. This is one of the few times we KNOW one of the decision makers in Blizzard eSports is reading the thread. This is not a time to go full youtube comments. (Or even reddit comments.)
On October 15 2013 15:39 Liquid`Ret wrote: I think that TL.net needs to be a place for constructive feedback, all of this hate is not contributing anything.
Blizzard is right here in this thread, use it!
Wait so this "kimaphan" guy is real? Haha i was pretty sure that is just a trolling guy with so few posts and was wondering why he wasn't banned. Maybe give him a Blizzard tag
Ok then i have a question or rather a concern: Does Blizzard hate teams?
Or at least dont care that much about them. It was right at the beginning of WCS were it seems to be a lot of confusion because Blizzard mainly contacted players and "ignored" the teams. But even besides organizational things the exposition of Teams and their sponsors is not supported by WCS. At the Finals at gamescon it was "Teaja" not "Liquid Teaja" why? I can only guess because i am obviously not part of the esport business but i think that most of the money still comes from sponsors. And sponsoring is a tough field in marketing because it is hard to calculate the value for the company. So why not helping the teams with showing the main sponsors at the beginning of WCS games. Or some "premium team sponsors" shown on stage.
I can only imagine how hard it is to gather money for something like esports with business models that are fighting for a "black zero" but why not help the Teams to expose their sponsors and give them weapons like "hey Razor your investment is worth it, X viewers were able to see your logo for Y times and Z minutes because Teaja is awesome and made it to the ro4".
kim phan is a female by the way, just to let you know so you don't keep saying "he"
On October 15 2013 15:21 looknohands119 wrote: HOLYSHIT! Why is no one talking about 3 leagues per region? That would mean that GSL and OSL are coming back!
Sorry, that's not what that means. It's not 3 leagues per reason, it's just 3 leagues, like we have now. NA, EU, KR. You can tell because prior to that bullet it says that this will "still" exist (i.e., it already exists now).
I'm not talking about 3 wcs leagues per region. I'm talking about 3 leagues per region (where WCS is one of the 3 for each region). That is definitely the way that was worded. And that definitely seems to indicate that GSL and OSL are coming back. Who would be the third league in NA? Probably NASL or MLG. Who knows, but either way, its a pretty exciting prospect.
If you are right, I'd be very happy, but unfortunately I think that part of the Q&A is just not worded perfectly. Here's what it says:
"The following will still exist: There will be three leagues operating in each of the existing regions – America, Europe, and Korea"
Grammatically, I agree that this reads like there are three leagues in EACH OF the three regions, but I think the statement should have been written with a comma after the word "leagues." So the "three leagues" are just the three WCS regions. Two reasons why I'm pretty sure my reading is right:
1) The bolded words "will still exist." So the Q&A is referring to something that already exists NOW. There are definitely not three leagues in each region now.
2) If Blizzard was really announcing that there'll be three separate leagues in EACH region (so nine leagues total), that would be a centerpoint of the post, as that would be a huge announcement. It wouldn't be buried in a bullet halfway through the Q&A.
Yes, I think some clarification is necessary here. Kim, can you clear this wording question up for us?
My apologies. The wording is definitely confusing. There will be a total of three WCS leagues next year, which is the same as this year. The sentence should have read:
There will be three leagues operating in each of the existing regions – America, Europe, and Korea
The biggest problem with WCS right now is that all of these Koreans who play in America and Europe don't help these regions become better and more competitive,especially America.
How many of the WCS AM premier league players actually play in the American ladder?Probably none.That's where i would start making changes.
There should be a requirement for all of the premier league players of each region to have an active GM account on that region's ladder.No barcodes ar anything like that.It should say "EG Jaedong" for example.That i think would help the rest of the american players get amazing practice and potentially increase their skill level.
Really cool to see Kim from Blizzard communicating in the thread.
Seems like I'm the only one that liked the season finals. The chills I got when all those awesome players walked on to the stage last season in Germany was amazing. The games at that tournament were incredible. If you're cutting down on tournaments i'd hope the prize money will be significantly raised, as well as better spread between all the players instead of top heavy.
The region lock stuff just needs to be like MLB. You don't need to be a citizen to play, but you do have to actually live in the country to play. I think that's all people really want. Make it an actual commitment. Throw in the added bonus of making them maintain a presence on the local ladder and then everyone starts benefitting.
On October 15 2013 15:39 Liquid`Ret wrote: I think that TL.net needs to be a place for constructive feedback, all of this hate is not contributing anything.
Blizzard is right here in this thread, use it!
Wait so this "kimaphan" guy is real? Haha i was pretty sure that is just a trolling guy with so few posts and was wondering why he wasn't banned. Maybe give him a Blizzard tag
Ok then i have a question or rather a concern: Does Blizzard hate teams?
Or at least dont care that much about them. It was right at the beginning of WCS were it seems to be a lot of confusion because Blizzard mainly contacted players and "ignored" the teams. But even besides organizational things the exposition of Teams and their sponsors is not supported by WCS. At the Finals at gamescon it was "Teaja" not "Liquid Teaja" why? I can only guess because i am obviously not part of the esport business but i think that most of the money still comes from sponsors. And sponsoring is a tough field in marketing because it is hard to calculate the value for the company. So why not helping the teams with showing the main sponsors at the beginning of WCS games. Or some "premium team sponsors" shown on stage.
I can only imagine how hard it is to gather money for something like esports with business models that are fighting for a "black zero" but why not help the Teams to expose their sponsors and give them weapons like "hey Razor your investment is worth it, X viewers were able to see your logo for Y times and Z minutes because Teaja is awesome and made it to the ro4".
kim phan is a female by the way, just to let you know so you don't keep saying "he"
On October 15 2013 15:39 Liquid`Ret wrote: I think that TL.net needs to be a place for constructive feedback, all of this hate is not contributing anything.
Blizzard is right here in this thread, use it!
Wait so this "kimaphan" guy is real? Haha i was pretty sure that is just a trolling guy with so few posts and was wondering why he wasn't banned. Maybe give him a Blizzard tag
Ok then i have a question or rather a concern: Does Blizzard hate teams?
Or at least dont care that much about them. It was right at the beginning of WCS were it seems to be a lot of confusion because Blizzard mainly contacted players and "ignored" the teams. But even besides organizational things the exposition of Teams and their sponsors is not supported by WCS. At the Finals at gamescon it was "Teaja" not "Liquid Teaja" why? I can only guess because i am obviously not part of the esport business but i think that most of the money still comes from sponsors. And sponsoring is a tough field in marketing because it is hard to calculate the value for the company. So why not helping the teams with showing the main sponsors at the beginning of WCS games. Or some "premium team sponsors" shown on stage.
I can only imagine how hard it is to gather money for something like esports with business models that are fighting for a "black zero" but why not help the Teams to expose their sponsors and give them weapons like "hey Razor your investment is worth it, X viewers were able to see your logo for Y times and Z minutes because Teaja is awesome and made it to the ro4".
Of course we don't hate teams. When we contact players, we also include their team managers. What makes you think we ignore teams? We're looking into ways we can incorporate and better support teams into WCS 2014.
Very positive changes imo. I like the idea of having three seasons instead of four and no more seasons finals in 2014 since watching everything was really time consuming this year.
I gotta agree with some of the negative posts. The season finals have been truly the GLOBAL tourney that sc has always been lacking. Sure u have a smattering of koreans and foreigners in dreamhack etc but its jes not the same as a season finals where everyone who is there is someone who has achieved something in his hometurf and is now meeting up for a big brawl.
Furthermore removing the season finals really cut down the unity of the WCS and the amount of tourneys. Will we once again be back in the days of stephano where we have the korean storys on one end, and a foreigners story on the other. And both never meets each other officially. Also jes 4 tourney for a player is terrible.
Lastly giving more emphasis to non-wcs event might be great from a marketing point of view to make sure dreamhack etc continue to support sc to a certain exctent. But still. the main problem of wcs is actually all the minor events which boosts up some players profile at the expense of other hardworking ones who slog it out only within the wcs tourneys.
All in all a say little, harm plenty explanation. Less tourneys, less importance, less global, more restriction, more fragmentation, more cost cutting measure. I hate to say it but looks like blizz is now in a fuck care re wcs.
On October 15 2013 09:17 Fizzy wrote: Hm, i cant really say i got any wiser from reading this... but i guess that was to be expected.
This will sound increadibly negative, and i apologize for that, but all Kim Phan is saying is "We are going to make changes, we cant announce any changes because we havnt decided what to change... but there will be changes. And we know what changes people in the community are suggesting.. and we are taking them into consideration."
But its good to hear there will be changes atleast.
Hi Fizzy!
I'm sorry you were disappointed. I was trying to say more than what you got out of it. I'll try to summarize what we're definitely doing next year:
Three regions (AM, EU, and KR)
Three seasons instead of four to allow us to spread the schedule out
Doing the above will allow us to simplify the format so that it's easier to follow. We want a more linear approach, meaning the qualifiers would take place first, then challenger, then premier league.
Improve the broadcast schedule so that it's more predictable. This would mean having a set schedule for the days each of the WCS regions would broadcast, allowing you to better plan your schedule for following WCS.
Removing season finals in their current form. We want there the be more spotlight on the regional finals and give other tournaments the opportunity to host events very similar to the season finals
For the rest of the changes, we're still in finalizing the decisions with our partners and looking forward to hearing the community feedback.
Also, I hope you're letting GOM and OGN do their own tournaments too. With region-lock the KR scene will get even smaller because it's just so stacked.
On October 15 2013 15:51 Gospadin wrote: I just want to know how they're going to ensure their players can get Visas, or if they can't get their visa by a certain deadline, promote players who can legally travel instead of walkovers.
That's where requiring that the players live in the region in which they play in is a good idea ;D
To be honest, I'd have to sit down with an immigration lawyer to figure out what visas apply to whom and if they're correct for the activities they're engaging in - I mean Polt is in the US studying, but what visa is in play? There are restrictions on student visas, and I have no idea where "professional StarCraft player" falls in that context. Could EG bring Jaedong in on an H1-B visa? (I think, out of most uses that one gets, he's probably a poster child for "can't fill with local citizen due to lack of qualified candidates".)
No I'm thinking more along the lines of a P-1 visa, which is what he should fall under. (No different than any international athlete in pro sports)
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
I think it's negativity among SC2 "fans" that will kill this game, not Blizzard
We have considered supporting additional regions with WCS, but are not planning for it in 2014. We would like to find ways to support and incorporate these regions into the overall WCS system by increasing local opportunities and allowing them to be a part of the points system. We also hope to work with regional tournament organizers to operate more WCS tiered tournaments."
This is an important part to me. What about challenger league be/include some sort of regional tournament, like Challenger League Latin America or Asia (-Korea) that would qualify at least one player to the premier league of the existing regions? I would say that for LA there is an audience for it because the "Copa America" torunament has had an audience of at least 5k+ (es + pt) for its seasons finals
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
I think it's negativity among SC2 "fans" that will kill this game, not Blizzard
Well said, my friend. I for one look forward to see these changes, especially how the new system works so that we can see more foreigners in the tournament!
On October 15 2013 09:17 Fizzy wrote: Hm, i cant really say i got any wiser from reading this... but i guess that was to be expected.
This will sound increadibly negative, and i apologize for that, but all Kim Phan is saying is "We are going to make changes, we cant announce any changes because we havnt decided what to change... but there will be changes. And we know what changes people in the community are suggesting.. and we are taking them into consideration."
But its good to hear there will be changes atleast.
Hi Fizzy!
I'm sorry you were disappointed. I was trying to say more than what you got out of it. I'll try to summarize what we're definitely doing next year:
Three regions (AM, EU, and KR)
Three seasons instead of four to allow us to spread the schedule out
Doing the above will allow us to simplify the format so that it's easier to follow. We want a more linear approach, meaning the qualifiers would take place first, then challenger, then premier league.
Improve the broadcast schedule so that it's more predictable. This would mean having a set schedule for the days each of the WCS regions would broadcast, allowing you to better plan your schedule for following WCS.
Removing season finals in their current form. We want there the be more spotlight on the regional finals and give other tournaments the opportunity to host events very similar to the season finals
For the rest of the changes, we're still in finalizing the decisions with our partners and looking forward to hearing the community feedback.
Do you have any plans to revitalize the Korean scene, especially since you're now reducing the seasons to 3?
We went from 5 GSLs, OSL, Blizzard Cup in 2012 to 3 GSLs and 1 OSL in 2013 with half the prize money, and now we're looking at only 3 tournaments?
The Korean scene has been the driving force of SC2 when it comes to developing the metagame, and giving all of us the most exciting matches. It's clear it was badly affected by the WCS changes of this year. What is your plan to remedy this?
On October 15 2013 09:10 beesinyoface wrote: How can you write so much but still be so oblivious to the glaring problems of WCS?
Please share what you think are the glaring problems of WCS and the solutions you'd propose to help solve them. We're listening!
Please consider separating GSL/OSL from WCS KR (making GSL/OSL Tier 1 tournaments in the points system). I think it's pretty important for the stagnating Korean scene.
On October 15 2013 16:32 Heartland wrote: I think this overall looks rather reasonable but it's hard to say without any more clear decisions.
I agree, it looks good but it is all rather non-committing.
A few things I'd like to see next season:
WCS Asia+Australia (excluding Korea) - This does not appear to happen in 2014, and that would be a missed opportunity I think.
At least one National Team tournaments - Not mentioned, but would work very well in Europe at least. Maybe DH could think of this?
Limit the number of region hoppers in qualifiers, challenger league and premier league - seems to be happening
More WCS points in non-WCS tournaments - again, this seems to be happening
2v2 tournaments like the doubles in tennis - Maybe this is just my own wet dream, but imagine how cool it would be to see Naniwa and Scarlett teaming up against, uh, I don't know, Life and Innovation. Individual skills important, yes, but will slick team play and elaborated tactics beat über micro etc etc?
On October 15 2013 09:45 Killmouse wrote: "We hope to provide a greater spotlight and give more importance to the major tournaments such as DreamHack, IEM, and Red Bull Battle Grounds."
R.I.P in piece MLG starcraft i guess^^
Please don't read into this because it doesn't mean anything. Just because we didn't mention a specific tournament doesn't mean they are not an important piece to the SCII ecosystem.
On October 15 2013 13:38 Chill wrote: Pretty sure step one should be "playing in your closest geographical region is mandatory".
You're welcome, Blizzard.
You want a glorified WCG all over again Chill?
Yes. Because then at least the qualifying stages will be dynamic.
wcg used to be pretty awesome
but ye maybe teamleague would be the way to go but i know it will never happen
make all the arcade free to play(could have some premium maps) and advertise it should increase player base and maybe some would buy the game for ladder
On October 15 2013 16:32 Heartland wrote: I think this overall looks rather reasonable but it's hard to say without any more clear decisions.
I agree, it looks good but it is all rather non-committing.
A few things I'd like to see next season:
WCS Asia+Australia (excluding Korea) - This does not appear to happen in 2014, and that would be a missed opportunity I think.
At least one National Team tournaments - Not mentioned, but would work very well in Europe at least. Maybe DH could think of this?
Limit the number of region hoppers in qualifiers, challenger league and premier league - seems to be happening
More WCS points in non-WCS tournaments - again, this seems to be happening
2v2 tournaments like the doubles in tennis - Maybe this is just my own wet dream, but imagine how cool it would be to see Naniwa and Scarlett teaming up against, uh, I don't know, Life and Innovation. Individual skills important, yes, but will slick team play and elaborated tactics beat über micro etc etc?
The national team thing could be fun. I think there are some other issues with a few of your points however. A non-Korea Australia/Asia WCS might just be a bit too poor in terms of player quality.
Another problem with giving out more points in other tournaments is that it's going to solidify Korean dominance rather than diversify it. I'd rather see more WCS points to the national tournaments like the now-defunct tour that TB did, like the Copa America or the two Swedish tournaments. However, the problem with that is that it is likely that it will strengthen already strong scenes (the Swedish one most likely) and not spread out points.
I was expecting for so much clarification, but you get the exact opposite. The only thing confirmed for WCS 2014, is that WCS 2014 will happen. Thats all we have to go off >.<
Im not sure why it takes so long to organize plans for next year and the biggest stumbling block they are having is trying to sort the region lock problem out which is pretty simple to figure out.....
One thing im disappointed about as well is that China is not getting its own region for next year, they should have one as their scene seems to be growing pretty strong right now (imo).
After reading this I feel really happy about doing less tournaments. WCS was on so much that it killed other tournaments and that every WCS match felt less important. All the other stuff is just to vague to really comment on right now.
One thing im disappointed about as well is that China is not getting its own region for next year, they should have one as their scene seems to be growing pretty strong right now (imo).
But the WCS is organised on a continent level, not a national. Why would a weak scene receive it's own WCS? It's growth seems to be disputed by the different interviews by Chinese players who are all depressed over the state of sc2 in China, the folding of teams, etc.
On October 15 2013 15:39 Liquid`Ret wrote: I think that TL.net needs to be a place for constructive feedback, all of this hate is not contributing anything.
Blizzard is right here in this thread, use it!
Wait so this "kimaphan" guy is real? Haha i was pretty sure that is just a trolling guy with so few posts and was wondering why he wasn't banned. Maybe give him a Blizzard tag
Ok then i have a question or rather a concern: Does Blizzard hate teams?
Or at least dont care that much about them. It was right at the beginning of WCS were it seems to be a lot of confusion because Blizzard mainly contacted players and "ignored" the teams. But even besides organizational things the exposition of Teams and their sponsors is not supported by WCS. At the Finals at gamescon it was "Teaja" not "Liquid Teaja" why? I can only guess because i am obviously not part of the esport business but i think that most of the money still comes from sponsors. And sponsoring is a tough field in marketing because it is hard to calculate the value for the company. So why not helping the teams with showing the main sponsors at the beginning of WCS games. Or some "premium team sponsors" shown on stage.
I can only imagine how hard it is to gather money for something like esports with business models that are fighting for a "black zero" but why not help the Teams to expose their sponsors and give them weapons like "hey Razor your investment is worth it, X viewers were able to see your logo for Y times and Z minutes because Teaja is awesome and made it to the ro4".
Of course we don't hate teams. When we contact players, we also include their team managers. What makes you think we ignore teams? We're looking into ways we can incorporate and better support teams into WCS 2014.
Obviously "hate" is a too strong word, its more a feeling that Blizzard doesn't care that much. In my opinion its a point were a lot of improvement could happen.
An example: If i go on the WCS Battle.net side and look for Innovation, Acer is mentioned only once, without a logo or a link to their web side. On the other side, on the picture he is still on STX Soul and the bio text still calls him a "Terran for STX Soul" a team that no longer exists in his former form. If i would be an Acer manger this would make me kinda angry because he isn't some random guy that only insiders know, he is number one in points. And i would question why Liquidpedia and Twitter gets her own links but not the Team that basically makes him able to play and travel.
I just think that is a point that could be relatively easy to improve.
I personally think the idea of somehow rewarding ladder peformances in a minor way is very interesting. That could be the first step into a solution for the 'Barcode situation' which is hugely detrimental to the community feel on battle.net as well as on the personal player streams.
On top of that I also hugely support a region lock based on where someone is residing and thus where they are practicing.
Also, we are pushing for more of our broadcast content to happen in a physical studio environment, inevitably pushing players to commit to longer periods of time where they must reside locally. Other points of interest we feel relevant to this include encouraging pros to play on their prospective regional ladders and requiring that anyone who wants to qualify in a region be ranked at a certain level on that region’s server. We have even been considering rewarding WCS points to players on the ladder who have registered with us as official WCS players.
This needs to happen. Don't say "only owners of a EU passport can play in EU" just make ro32 offline and let the players deal with the commitment. The needed commitment to play in the ladder etc.pp. should also improve the level of competition on the server overall.
we have been considering include carving out a portion of player slots dedicated to legal residents that would guarantee players living in a particular region would always have a consistent chance to make it into Challenger League
that would be worst case scenario..... don't give any special treatment to any player!
I like that they plan to cut out the global season finals, they were pretty bad anyway, regional finals are enough. I really like the idea that at the end of the season, at the GLOBAL FINALS all champions from every region and every season will battle each other for the grand champion title.
Besides that, a lot of stuff still up in the air but overall it sounds rather promising to me.
On October 15 2013 15:51 Gospadin wrote: I just want to know how they're going to ensure their players can get Visas, or if they can't get their visa by a certain deadline, promote players who can legally travel instead of walkovers.
That's where requiring that the players live in the region in which they play in is a good idea ;D
To be honest, I'd have to sit down with an immigration lawyer to figure out what visas apply to whom and if they're correct for the activities they're engaging in - I mean Polt is in the US studying, but what visa is in play? There are restrictions on student visas, and I have no idea where "professional StarCraft player" falls in that context. Could EG bring Jaedong in on an H1-B visa? (I think, out of most uses that one gets, he's probably a poster child for "can't fill with local citizen due to lack of qualified candidates".)
No I'm thinking more along the lines of a P-1 visa, which is what he should fall under. (No different than any international athlete in pro sports)
That's only been a very recent thing, and I would bet half the embassies are still going "No, really? What?" And that wasn't a thing when Polt came into the US. They really should all be P-1 visas - maybe Kim can answer that one if she's aware.
On October 15 2013 09:17 Fizzy wrote: Hm, i cant really say i got any wiser from reading this... but i guess that was to be expected.
This will sound increadibly negative, and i apologize for that, but all Kim Phan is saying is "We are going to make changes, we cant announce any changes because we havnt decided what to change... but there will be changes. And we know what changes people in the community are suggesting.. and we are taking them into consideration."
But its good to hear there will be changes atleast.
Hi Fizzy!
I'm sorry you were disappointed. I was trying to say more than what you got out of it. I'll try to summarize what we're definitely doing next year:
Three regions (AM, EU, and KR)
Three seasons instead of four to allow us to spread the schedule out
Doing the above will allow us to simplify the format so that it's easier to follow. We want a more linear approach, meaning the qualifiers would take place first, then challenger, then premier league.
Improve the broadcast schedule so that it's more predictable. This would mean having a set schedule for the days each of the WCS regions would broadcast, allowing you to better plan your schedule for following WCS.
Removing season finals in their current form. We want there the be more spotlight on the regional finals and give other tournaments the opportunity to host events very similar to the season finals
For the rest of the changes, we're still in finalizing the decisions with our partners and looking forward to hearing the community feedback.
Could these points be edited into the post? Thanks for clarifying Kim but all that info was buried into a lot of Q&A text where some things weren't finalized.
I'm crossing my fingers you rethink region qualifications. Thanks for taking the time to answer questions.
What do you guys/girls at Blizzard think of the video work you did this year for WCS such as the WCS Highlights, spotlights, Top 5 plays?
Do you see opportunity for experimentation next year? I went to the WCS AM fan meet n greet earlier this summer at the Santa Monica Pier and it looked like a great opportunity to make some video content for WCS but not much came from it.
On October 15 2013 16:32 Heartland wrote: I think this overall looks rather reasonable but it's hard to say without any more clear decisions.
I agree, it looks good but it is all rather non-committing.
A few things I'd like to see next season:
WCS Asia+Australia (excluding Korea) - This does not appear to happen in 2014, and that would be a missed opportunity I think.
At least one National Team tournaments - Not mentioned, but would work very well in Europe at least. Maybe DH could think of this?
Limit the number of region hoppers in qualifiers, challenger league and premier league - seems to be happening
More WCS points in non-WCS tournaments - again, this seems to be happening
2v2 tournaments like the doubles in tennis - Maybe this is just my own wet dream, but imagine how cool it would be to see Naniwa and Scarlett teaming up against, uh, I don't know, Life and Innovation. Individual skills important, yes, but will slick team play and elaborated tactics beat über micro etc etc?
The national team thing could be fun. I think there are some other issues with a few of your points however. A non-Korea Australia/Asia WCS might just be a bit too poor in terms of player quality.
Another problem with giving out more points in other tournaments is that it's going to solidify Korean dominance rather than diversify it. I'd rather see more WCS points to the national tournaments like the now-defunct tour that TB did, like the Copa America or the two Swedish tournaments. However, the problem with that is that it is likely that it will strengthen already strong scenes (the Swedish one most likely) and not spread out points.
The A+A-K scene may be weak today (I'm not sure this is the case however, could be stronger than the AM scene for all I know), but if no emphasis is put there, it won't grow any stronger either. Hence missed opportunity.
The season final WCS points need to be re-distributed and there are plenty of ways of doing this. Like you say, if Copa America got a share and other similar tournaments, they would (hopefully) get more attention locally as well. It could be that strong scenes would gain initially, but it would also strengthen tournaments like Fragbite etc, and this could bring in more sponsorship and as well viewers. It is all down to the hype of WCS points.
We would like to focus on three leagues for WCS 2014, but we want to find ways to further support the scenes in other regions. One way would be to adjust the WCS point system so that it incorporates tournaments and leagues from these other regions in a more meaningful way.
On October 15 2013 15:31 Ketch wrote: I stopped reading after the answer to the first question "we still have to decide on region locking".... it is almost 2014, make a decision ffs
Edit: ok read the rest... not really impressed. Have they been doing anything at all?
Wow, ok. Props to Kim for responding like this in the thread. Maybe this happens on battle.net as well, I don't know .... My post came from the fact that I am quite annoyed as to the lack of communication regarding WCS and the seeming lack of actions.
I'll be a little bit more constructive then - I think it's imperative to communicate more clearly and urgently. I for example love what David Kim is doing in opening up the balance changes, by actively sharing his thoughts. We saw these communications problems also in the first seasons of WCS as it was very unclear where and how people could change regions and back again, both for players and public, which leads to frustration. I understand you have to talk to a lot of partners and come to an agreement together on various matters, but I would strive to put deadlines for decisions earlier, so you can communicate them better. The situation with persons like Taeja not playing challenger is an example. Not having the decision ready yet undermines the current WCS structure. - I approve very much of spreading out the seasons, doing challenger first (instead of after like now) and removing the season finals, and giving more room for other tournaments. Also, smaller events like Shoutcraft Invitationals or Apollo's UK-PC-Shop tournaments might come back, I always liked those little tournaments very much. - If you give more room to other tournaments and remove the season finals, WCS points at those other tournaments will become more important I think. I think there have to be very good rules or strategy to invites for those tournaments / ensure always open qualifiers etc. Equal opportunities for all players thus. Be clear about what tournaments like IEM are allowed to do if qualified people drop out in regards to WCS points.
I think WCS should be about residency locks. Koreans coming in for 1-2 weeks in EU/AM for the tournament and then leaving again doesn't help these regions at all. If they were to stay there for longer periods of time, then t european and NA players could have better training partners. Good examples: MC, Forgg.
I don't like all this "we train in Korea (have better training partners), come to EU/NA for a few days, win the money and then leave back to the land of better training".
On October 15 2013 17:17 kimaphan wrote: We would like to focus on three leagues for WCS 2014, but we want to find ways to further support the scenes in other regions. One way would be to adjust the WCS point system so that it incorporates tournaments and leagues from these other regions in a more meaningful way.
Yes, adding WCS points to bring up the status of such tournaments could work. The obvious danger is that such tournaments would get infested by players from the regions that already have WCS leagues though.
- Great to see Blizzard listening; It's a pity so many people on here always want to criticise, and never be happy that Blizzard takes such good care of its player base. I was part of the competitive Call of Duty scene on PC, and developers never had any form of post-purchase interaction with their playerbase, nor did they ever invest a fraction of a penny in eSport. So I'm extremely thankful to Blizzard for being awesome.
- I am glad soft region-lock seems to be strongly considered. Citizenship is too strict, and people like DeMusliM and Polt are great for WCS AM, as are StarDust and other Koreans in EU, as long as they are part of the AM/EU scene. Having TaeJa, Jaedong, and other Koreans who practiced in Korea, and only showed up in their respective regions in the RO16 was not helping growth, especially since these Koreans were winning more money than their compatriots in WCS KR, and being less skilled. What would happen, however to NA players like Kane and goswser who are currently living in Europe? Imo, they should be allowed to choose the region to play in. - I welcome the decision to remove the Grand Slams, as they did disrupt storylines, and their atmosphere could be re-created with less expense in events like DreamHack, MLG, Iron Squid, IEM, Assembly etc. They also gave even bigger rewards to players who had already won the top prizes, and the most points. However, I hope that the $450,000 in prize money that is freed up is still somehow invested into the scene.
- Different regions have different circumstances, and I would like to see the Korean region being given some autonomy. Going from 5 GSL events and 1 OSL event, to 2 GSL events and 1 OSL event under WCS, with less prizemoney is not a good thing. I am a bit sad that there does not seem to be any changes here.
- The thing that I was perhaps most disappointed about is the lack of a WCS region for China, Taiwan, South East Asia, Japan, Oceania, and the rest of Asia. Whilst some people may say that this further dilutes viewerbase, and that there aren't enough good players in these regions, I believe this to be incorrect. The market for such a league wouldn't necessarily be the fans in the west, but rather, the Chinese-speaking market, which has tons of potential. It would also have an English cast of course, for the viewers in SEA and AU/NZ and anyone interested in the west. People here should realise that us (the EU and NA market) should not be the only target audience, and I think Blizzard can greatly benefit from more exposure to China and the surrounding regions. Not having a WCS region to the above is of great detriment in my opinion. With that said, it does not mean that it definitely has to have the same prize pool, and the same point distribution as say WCS Korea, but no WCS event whatsoever is really bad in my opinion. Hell, people forget that Taiwan has an SC2 league shown on TV, just like Brood War in Korea. Such a league would also largely eliminate the problems that Chinese players had with WCS America - communication, timezones, travel etc. I really wish Blizzard would re-consider.
- I am aware Blizzard tried organising smaller tournaments for regions without WCS leagues, namely Copa America for Latin America, and the Vengeance Cup for SEA. Whilst these were great, I would really like to see them merged in the WCS.
- I hope WCS support extends to tournaments other than the few we got in 2013. Smaller, but significant tournaments should still be able to give out some (smaller) amount of WCS points. It would be great to see a really global WCS system, where most tournaments matter for the grand finale at BlizzCon. So events like EPS Germany, Shoutcraft America, Fragbite Masters, Ritmix RSL, TeSL, Chinese tournaments, ESET Masters etc. SC2 has many Major Tournaments and Minor Tournaments that unfortunately go below the radar for most.
- Three regions rather than four is actually a good thing - allows for breathing room for other great tournaments. It's a pity something like ATC and SC2L sometimes struggle to keep a regular broadcasting schedule because of WCS, let alone other tournaments that did not happen because WCS is constantly running. It also gives some breathing room for players.
- It's a pity that Team Tournaments still won't be a factor in WCS. Unfortunately, they haven't been the most popular thing since SC2's inception, yet most people fail to realise the importance of teams. It is teams who pay the players' salaries, it is the teams who make the life of pro players more manageable, allowing them to focus solely on their training, and it is teams who are in a much better position to properly market third party sponsors. They are crucial to the life of any eSport, and the focus on 1v1 tournaments has made some traditionally affluent such as SK Gaming, Team Alternate, Virtus.pro, Alliance and Team Empire amongst others going for one or two players rather than a proper team (thus less opportunities for players to become professional gamers); I would really like to see a proper team league in the west, though how this would tie up to WCS, I don't really know!
On October 15 2013 17:09 Liquid`Ret wrote: I personally think the idea of somehow rewarding ladder peformances in a minor way is very interesting. That could be the first step into a solution for the 'Barcode situation' which is hugely detrimental to the community feel on battle.net as well as on the personal player streams.
On top of that I also hugely support a region lock based on where someone is residing and thus where they are practicing.
I agree, the barcode men are not really helping the fans. The ladder seasons would become an online tournament in its own right with WCS points. I like!
On October 15 2013 14:48 Yakikorosu wrote: It would be helpful if Blizzard could share more details about their reasoning behind going from 4 to 3 seasons and eliminating Season Finals. I understand that theoretically it's "to free up room for more non-WCS events," but has this decision been taken with some sort of confirmation that there WILL BE more non-WCS events than there were this year, or is that just an assumption Blizzard is making? More DreamHacks and IEMs are great but will there be GSLs/OSLs outside of WCS KR? If we're only having three GSLs/OSLs combined the entire year in 2014, that's pretty sad... Even this four this year didn't feel like very many, and that was with three Season Finals acting as additional "mini-tournaments."
I mentioned this in another reply, but another significant reason for having three seasons next year is to allow us to spread out the schedule of a particular season to make the format more linear and simpler. We received feedback this year that each season felt too crammed. The qualifiers and challenger league of following season were taking place during the same time as the premier league of the current season. This was confusing to many of our viewers.
On October 15 2013 17:09 Liquid`Ret wrote: I personally think the idea of somehow rewarding ladder peformances in a minor way is very interesting. That could be the first step into a solution for the 'Barcode situation' which is hugely detrimental to the community feel on battle.net as well as on the personal player streams.
On top of that I also hugely support a region lock based on where someone is residing and thus where they are practicing.
I agree, the barcode men are not really helping the fans. The ladder seasons would become an online tournament in its own right with WCS points. I like!
100 pts for finishing as first in a ladder season end. 50 for second. 25 for third/fourth. 10 for 5/8th. Only on the region you are signed up for. This would be cool.
Top 16 not in a league gets invited to challenger or seeded in the qualifier or something.
Edit: changes to how you get into GM or drop out are needed.
I know you all at Blizzard haven't yet decided how to handle region-locking quite yet, but would there be set slots for non-regional players to compete in other regions, especially if residing in that particular region they want to compete in is not viable?
They would still have to fulfill the requirement to maintain a presence on the ladder of their WCS region of choice. This is more aimed for players who do not have a native region to play in for WCS such as Australian players and SEA-based players such as Sen, PiG, Moonglade, etc.. Because a region-lock requiring residency would hurt those players the most.
Also for the lack of or the restructuring of season finals, I was wondering if you considered instead of Top 16 go to Blizzcon or the WCS Grand Finals, it could be Top 32 players?
On October 15 2013 15:17 ASasquatch wrote: Personally as a player I think these seem like really good steps to improving WCS, especially adding some light form of region lock (personally I think residency is best) and having each respective regions ladder feeding into WCS in some form to help make each ladder competitive. Thanks for being so transparent Kim!
On October 15 2013 17:09 Liquid`Ret wrote: I personally think the idea of somehow rewarding ladder peformances in a minor way is very interesting. That could be the first step into a solution for the 'Barcode situation' which is hugely detrimental to the community feel on battle.net as well as on the personal player streams.
On top of that I also hugely support a region lock based on where someone is residing and thus where they are practicing.
I agree, the barcode men are not really helping the fans. The ladder seasons would become an online tournament in its own right with WCS points. I like!
100 pts for finishing as first in a ladder season end. 50 for second. 25 for third/fourth. 10 for 5/8th. Only on the region you are signed up for. This would be cool.
Top 16 not in a league gets invited to challenger or seeded in the qualifier or something.
Edit: changes to how you get into GM or drop out are needed.
It would be cool but i see serious problems with that:
- Potential cheating? - Stream sniping could be a problem - What about game fixing? I remember Demuslim playing (and loosing) Byun like 15 times in a row, how do you make sure that team mates or friends don't just snipe each other all night. Its not their fault that they get matched up constantly. - It could kill non wcs online Tournaments. Things like an all killing night in the ATC could take an entire evening and they aren't giving any points.
Its cool but i think in the current ladder system its not makeable.
On October 15 2013 17:09 Liquid`Ret wrote: I personally think the idea of somehow rewarding ladder peformances in a minor way is very interesting. That could be the first step into a solution for the 'Barcode situation' which is hugely detrimental to the community feel on battle.net as well as on the personal player streams.
On top of that I also hugely support a region lock based on where someone is residing and thus where they are practicing.
Is residence really that important? I mean if it's just about practicing on the server of the region they plan to compete in, then how about a requirement that a majority of the games (ladder and custom) played by the competitor should happen on the server of WCS region he/she wants to participate in.
Anyways, I have mixed feelings about WCS working together with Red Bull Battlegrounds. Maybe I am mixing it up with another Red Bull event, but wasn't the Battlegrounds almost invite only? edit: What I am trying to say is, that I hope blizzard pushes the tournament organizers it works together with into providing the vast majority of the spots to open (maybe regional) qualifiers and only seeds players based on the performance of the past tournament.
While some people are reading into this and seeing only 3 WCS seasons per year as being a negative thing, I consider it a blessing.
The scene needs some breathing room to be able to foster up and coming talent and, atm there is not time when you could schedule said tournaments because WCS is almost always on. And if I'm reading this correctly, having a limited number of slots in premier league for people outside its region, could be one of the best and most balanced ways to solve the issue regarding Koreans swooping in and taking up all the slots. Of course there still need to be some small local tournaments that are completely region locked, and now with only 3 WCS per year we can have that as well.
I'm hoping there is enough time that GOM and OGN can also host an independent GSL and OSL of their own and thus bring more money into the Korean region then the 4 we'll have this year and the proposed 3 next year.
Was getting kind of frustrated until i got to "We have decided that the season finals will not be continuing in their current form and we’re looking to change how they work in 2014." Thank you! This makes me happy
thank you blizz for reaching out with some additional info. Really appreciate the insight, and hope that 2014 can be bigger, better, and more efficient than 2013.
i really hope they get rid of the points for WCS from random 'premier' events. they said a primary goal for WCS is to reward the best players, but all that the current system did was reward the teams with the most money. i dont really think people watch IEM or Dreamhack for the WCS points, they watch because its good starcraft in its own right, and although you could point to this week nani story line, if blizzard did a better job of hyping 'the road to blizzcon' all year long, people wouldnt be as focused on naniwa. naniwa handed WCS a get out of jail card by doing more to hype blizzcon in a weekend than they have done in months.
maybe if they were desperate to have a reward from other events, they could allow mlg/dreamhack/iem to have 1 wildcard spot in to blizzcon each, but as it stands now the whole table of points is dominated by people who actually didnt do that great in WCS.
On October 15 2013 17:45 Fjodorov wrote: Was getting kind of frustrated until i got to "We have decided that the season finals will not be continuing in their current form and we’re looking to change how they work in 2014." Thank you! This makes me happy
What if they take the money for the Season finals and dedicate it to making more of the tournament played live in front of an audience (which means higher estimated costs for hotel reimbursements)? That would be awesome!
On October 15 2013 17:09 Liquid`Ret wrote: I personally think the idea of somehow rewarding ladder peformances in a minor way is very interesting. That could be the first step into a solution for the 'Barcode situation' which is hugely detrimental to the community feel on battle.net as well as on the personal player streams.
On top of that I also hugely support a region lock based on where someone is residing and thus where they are practicing.
Is residence really that important? I mean if it's just about practicing on the server of the region they plan to compete in, then how about a requirement that a majority of the games (ladder and custom) played by the competitor should happen on the server of WCS region he/she wants to participate in.
Anyways, I have mixed feelings about WCS working together with Red Bull Battlegrounds. Maybe I am mixing it up with another Red Bull event, but wasn't the Battlegrounds almost invite only?
Yeah I would like to hear what blizzard intends to do about this situation with tournaments giving out wcs points but not being transparent in how they invite players. IEM NY is a good example of how bad it can be. Its very important that the system is fair and the only way I see that being possible is having qualifiers. Invites to tournaments that give out wcs points need to stop. Except for maybe "reigning champion invite".
After lurking for years, I've finally decided to register here on TeamLiquid in order to be able to talk to you. (By the by, hi TeamLiquid! You guys rock!)
---Wall of text incoming, sorry about that!---tl,dr at the end---
First of all, I'd like to thank you for posting to the community. I think this is a fantastic step forward for Blizzard and Starcraft II. Just like David Kim and Dustin Browder were particularly active in posting balance updates during the Heart Of The Swarm beta (and have remained very communicative since), I'd love to hear from you often in this period in which significant E-Sports changes will take place (an E-Sports balance patch, if you like!). It takes guts, I'm sure, to reach out to a passionate community that doesn't necessarily agree with what you do, and is a very harsh critic of your work. So, kudos!
I'd also like to say, before I comment on your interview, that I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the 2013 WCS. It has absolutely increased the time I spend watching, discussing and thinking about Starcraft -> and even playing! Having a premier, consistant league-like tournament (as opposed to weekend sprints) in my continent (Europe), happening live at a time that's convenient for me to watch, well, has been nothing short of amazing.
Now, then, to the actual points being discussed here. I'll try to propose concrete, implementable and realistic ways to improve onto WCS. I'll try to illustrate with examples from Europe, as it's the league I follow the most.
-Regarding Region Lock: From an expectating point of view, I love having Koreans in Europe! It's brought me great entertainment to be able to watch my biggest E-Sport hero live (Mvp!). Seeing MC be himself, being awed as duckdeok finally makes a name for himself and just cracks under the importance of the moment, and watching Nerchio proclaim "MMA is back!" have all been highlights of my year. From a "growing the scene" perspective, I can only imagine having high-quality practice on ladder and live is great for all scenes. Bringing great players from Korea into America and Europe has the effect of bolstering growth. However, as you say, one of the major points in getting a high viewership is being able to identify with players that reperesent you and your country. I think we all saw, in WCS 2012, that national rivalry in Europe is a strong driver of vierwerships. Keeping some Europeans in WCS Europe definately bolsters that. Plus, it creates a feeling that "I could try to get there", an encouragement that has been needed, particularly in the American scene, I feel.
I'd propose a very soft lock to be able to have our cake, and eat it, too: If possible, moving the Ro32 offline + adding the following requirement: You must be a Grand Master in the European Ladder (either as of "Day X", or during the full run at several times) in order to qualify for the European Premier league (same for other regions, of course). This guarantees non-europeans actually play in the Europe ladder if they want to compete in Europe, "sharing" their strategies. This drives skill up everywhere and avoids someone playing 30 games in a continent and going back home which a trophy, which feels bad. Additionally, this system makes ladder very relevant. If the current Grand Master league is too big/too small, adjust it's size (I mean, it doesn't actually serve any purpose now, so changing it shouldn't actually "break anything"). Drawing a fixed percentage of players in the Challenger league from players that LIVE in the continent sounds like a good idea too. Please don't make it dependent on being born somewhere. If someone like ForGG/Stardust decides to live in France for years, going away from family and friends in order to compete in Europe, he should be able to opt for one of the reserved seeds.
-Regarding no Region Finals and only 3 Seasons: I actually liked the Region Finals as a tournament. They were very good games by the players most in form at the time. Plus, they allow for some "competition amongst regions", which is excellent in my book. However, I do agree that they do diminish the importance of the regional narratives. Regional tournaments are long and take extensive preparation. Maru overcame all odds to win on WCS Korea, beating Symbol, Innovation and Rain in an impressive tour of force, to then... fall flat in Europe. It feels like weekend bashes a la Dreamhack, IEM, MLG, Red Bull Battlegrounds etc can fulfill the niche of "comparing regions" quite capably, but don't invalidate WCS runs as much, so I like the combination of no season finals with more room for external (non-WCS) tournaments.
-Regarding seeding from one year to the next: I believe Nony made a good point in this thread before: The fact that the last season of this year seeds it's top 8 into the next competition next year feels bad. To put it plainly, why is Mvp's fantastic performance on the first half of the year less relevant than MC's on the second half? Does it really feel correct to seed Targa and Genius, but not ForGG or TLO, who have been more consistant? (No disrespect meant to anyone, I'm using names strictly for their point totals/league placements!). My take would be the following: Every new year wipes all points out. The top 16 in points go to BlizzCon. The seeding for the first WCS lueagues next year is simply the 8 highest point totals in that region (or however many your decide to seed). That takes the whole year into account and adds extra drama to the last tournaments on the year, as maybe someone like, say Lucifron, or Happy, who have been consistently good, and are on the outside looking in on the Europe-based point scale, to try and go to EVERY tournament now in order to get a seed, just like Naniwa just did with IEM in order to try and go to Blizzcon! I understand you may not be able to implement this -this year-. You may have promised the top 8 players they are already seeded. But in that case please consider it for next year.
tl,dr: Thanks for posting, Kim! I like very soft region locks (offline+be grandmaster on the corresponding ladder for access to premier league) best. Seed for next seasons WCS from point totals (per region, ex. the 8 highest point totals from people that competed in Europe) instead "the best 8 in the last WCS Europe are qualified for next year".
Thanks, all, and sorry for the wall of text! I look forward to hearing your opinions!
Things actually sound really promising. I don't think more drastic changes will help tbh, and they need more experience to properly evaluate. If they just give more attention to the regionals, and more room for grassroots and other means to expand on the playerbase and especially the pro-playerbase with more money, or housing or whatever in the regions, then I think the future will be quite promising.
Also they just have to go free to play multiplayer, and it does feel like they will. I just hope it wont be too long (i.e expansion), because they might miss their opportunity on the market...
On October 15 2013 17:09 Liquid`Ret wrote: I personally think the idea of somehow rewarding ladder peformances in a minor way is very interesting. That could be the first step into a solution for the 'Barcode situation' which is hugely detrimental to the community feel on battle.net as well as on the personal player streams.
On top of that I also hugely support a region lock based on where someone is residing and thus where they are practicing.
I agree, the barcode men are not really helping the fans. The ladder seasons would become an online tournament in its own right with WCS points. I like!
100 pts for finishing as first in a ladder season end. 50 for second. 25 for third/fourth. 10 for 5/8th. Only on the region you are signed up for. This would be cool.
Top 16 not in a league gets invited to challenger or seeded in the qualifier or something.
Edit: changes to how you get into GM or drop out are needed.
It would be cool but i see serious problems with that:
- Potential cheating? - Stream sniping could be a problem - What about game fixing? I remember Demuslim playing (and loosing) Byun like 15 times in a row, how do you make sure that team mates or friends don't just snipe each other all night. Its not their fault that they get matched up constantly. - It could kill non wcs online Tournaments. Things like an all killing night in the ATC could take an entire evening and they aren't giving any points.
Its cool but i think in the current ladder system its not makeable.
Yeah, these are tricky things to deal with. One idea would be to have a referee who can go back and check for inconsistencies, like one player loosing 15 times to another in a row. Another idea could ladder WCS point hours between 17:00-00:00 so that people can practice in the day.
I am glad that Kim is commenting here, and that she is answering to all those(hectic) comments. I am looking forward to the changes, I think that Blizzard learned a lot from the current WCS.
When I read the interview, I knew there won't be a lot of new info, because this isn't an announcement, so I am quite happy with the answers. Sadly, I knew that there will be a lot of negative comments. Some people don't understand the answers, some of them don't want to read and some read just what they want.
All in all, good job Kim and keep up the good work.
On October 15 2013 14:48 Yakikorosu wrote: It would be helpful if Blizzard could share more details about their reasoning behind going from 4 to 3 seasons and eliminating Season Finals. I understand that theoretically it's "to free up room for more non-WCS events," but has this decision been taken with some sort of confirmation that there WILL BE more non-WCS events than there were this year, or is that just an assumption Blizzard is making? More DreamHacks and IEMs are great but will there be GSLs/OSLs outside of WCS KR? If we're only having three GSLs/OSLs combined the entire year in 2014, that's pretty sad... Even this four this year didn't feel like very many, and that was with three Season Finals acting as additional "mini-tournaments."
I mentioned this in another reply, but another significant reason for having three seasons next year is to allow us to spread out the schedule of a particular season to make the format more linear and simpler. We received feedback this year that each season felt too crammed. The qualifiers and challenger league of following season were taking place during the same time as the premier league of the current season. This was confusing to many of our viewers.
I don't intend to be rude, but somehow I feel the question has not really been answered. I'd agree with Yakikorosu that 3 GSL/OSL seasons combined for the entire year 2014 would be really sad and horrible for the Korean scene. With the introduction of the WCS 2013, the number of tournaments was cut to 3 + the pricepool was cut as well. Reducing the number of tournaments even more (-> cutting the season finals) seems really bad and weird, especially for the Korean scene. To come back to the question by Yakikorosu: Do you just HOPE there will be more tournaments, or WILL there be more tournaments? Once again: Especially in Korea, will there be more GSL/OSL season outside the WCS system? Because 3 tournaments with the current price pool seems really bad for the amount of Korean progamers right now.
And in general: How do you feel about, what WCS has done to the Korean scene?
And: I think it's great to answer the questions here, WCS 2013 was not perfect and I'm happy there will be changes. Even though we don't know what kind of changes we'll see :-P
On October 15 2013 17:09 Liquid`Ret wrote: I personally think the idea of somehow rewarding ladder peformances in a minor way is very interesting. That could be the first step into a solution for the 'Barcode situation' which is hugely detrimental to the community feel on battle.net as well as on the personal player streams.
On top of that I also hugely support a region lock based on where someone is residing and thus where they are practicing.
I agree, the barcode men are not really helping the fans. The ladder seasons would become an online tournament in its own right with WCS points. I like!
We need online ladder tournaments a la WC3. Rewards could include:
1. League promotion, along with MMR boost, to prevent smurfs abusing too frequently (and if they buy new accounts, Blizz is making money and we can pretend SC2 is a little more successful, to counter our usual habit of acting like it's worse off than it is)
2. Icons for tournament wins, just like in WC3. While you're at it, bring in some of those WC3 icons. If you win a diamond tournament, then with the promotion to master's would be the standard master's icon. It might not feel that deserved, but only if master's players who should be beating the diamond players aren't defending their turf that night.
3. The best reward is the satisfaction of having even won one series in a tournament, if not the whole thing.
4. Chat channels with icons from tournament participation would be pretty sweet.
Blizzard already spoke of adding tournaments way back when discussing things they wanted to add in or around HotS. It's been ages since hearing more about these tournaments though, unless a recent announcement slipped by me (I get 99% of my news on TL, not battle.net)
Tournaments should probably be league restricted, such as bronze-silver, silver-gold, gold-platinum, etc., all the way up to master's-GM. At the top level, discretion would be used before giving promotions to GM, based on actual strength of participants. Maybe run tournaments concurrently if it becomes popular enough.
This could ultimately feed into WCS, though it should be clear to most who participate that WCS is miles and years away from being a place they'd ever compete.
it would be nice that everytime a global finals happen per season it should be 32 player from 3 regions .. not 16 .. 16 is a little bit too little
regarding region locking .. what would happen if instead of region locking they separate the challengers league for both foreigners and locals in the specified region ? .. so that the composition of player in r32 would be 50-50 locals-foreigners
On October 15 2013 14:48 Yakikorosu wrote: It would be helpful if Blizzard could share more details about their reasoning behind going from 4 to 3 seasons and eliminating Season Finals. I understand that theoretically it's "to free up room for more non-WCS events," but has this decision been taken with some sort of confirmation that there WILL BE more non-WCS events than there were this year, or is that just an assumption Blizzard is making? More DreamHacks and IEMs are great but will there be GSLs/OSLs outside of WCS KR? If we're only having three GSLs/OSLs combined the entire year in 2014, that's pretty sad... Even this four this year didn't feel like very many, and that was with three Season Finals acting as additional "mini-tournaments."
I mentioned this in another reply, but another significant reason for having three seasons next year is to allow us to spread out the schedule of a particular season to make the format more linear and simpler. We received feedback this year that each season felt too crammed. The qualifiers and challenger league of following season were taking place during the same time as the premier league of the current season. This was confusing to many of our viewers.
I don't intend to be rude, but somehow I feel the question has not really been answered. I'd agree with Yakikorosu that 3 GSL/OSL seasons combined for the entire year 2014 would be really sad and horrible for the Korean scene. With the introduction of the WCS 2013, the number of tournaments was cut to 3 + the pricepool was cut as well. Reducing the number of tournaments even more (-> cutting the season finals) seems really bad and weird, especially for the Korean scene. To come back to the question by Yakikorosu: Do you just HOPE there will be more tournaments, or WILL there be more tournaments? Once again: Especially in Korea, will there be more GSL/OSL season outside the WCS system? Because 3 tournaments with the current price pool seems really bad for the amount of Korean progamers right now.
And in general: How do you feel about, what WCS has done to the Korean scene?
And: I think it's great to answer the questions here, WCS 2013 was not perfect and I'm happy there will be changes. Even though we don't know what kind of changes we'll see :-P
Yeah I wish the korean scene were left to do their own thing. WCS is good for everyone except korea. Why cant just GSL/OSL get to do their own thing and at the end of the year the top 10 GSL/OSL players goes to blizzcon and the rest of the spots for blizzcon go to top wcs players.
On October 15 2013 18:00 goody153 wrote: it would be nice that everytime a global finals happen per season it should be 32 player from 3 regions .. not 16 .. 16 is a little bit too little
regarding region locking .. what would happen if instead of region locking they separate the challengers league for both foreigners and locals in the specified region ? .. so that the composition of player in r32 would be 50-50 locals-foreigners
Aren't you then just asking for one sided stomps in the first rounds of the premier league? :o
On October 15 2013 14:48 Yakikorosu wrote: It would be helpful if Blizzard could share more details about their reasoning behind going from 4 to 3 seasons and eliminating Season Finals. I understand that theoretically it's "to free up room for more non-WCS events," but has this decision been taken with some sort of confirmation that there WILL BE more non-WCS events than there were this year, or is that just an assumption Blizzard is making? More DreamHacks and IEMs are great but will there be GSLs/OSLs outside of WCS KR? If we're only having three GSLs/OSLs combined the entire year in 2014, that's pretty sad... Even this four this year didn't feel like very many, and that was with three Season Finals acting as additional "mini-tournaments."
I mentioned this in another reply, but another significant reason for having three seasons next year is to allow us to spread out the schedule of a particular season to make the format more linear and simpler. We received feedback this year that each season felt too crammed. The qualifiers and challenger league of following season were taking place during the same time as the premier league of the current season. This was confusing to many of our viewers.
I don't intend to be rude, but somehow I feel the question has not really been answered. I'd agree with Yakikorosu that 3 GSL/OSL seasons combined for the entire year 2014 would be really sad and horrible for the Korean scene. With the introduction of the WCS 2013, the number of tournaments was cut to 3 + the pricepool was cut as well. Reducing the number of tournaments even more (-> cutting the season finals) seems really bad and weird, especially for the Korean scene. To come back to the question by Yakikorosu: Do you just HOPE there will be more tournaments, or WILL there be more tournaments? Once again: Especially in Korea, will there be more GSL/OSL season outside the WCS system? Because 3 tournaments with the current price pool seems really bad for the amount of Korean progamers right now.
To be honest, I can't really answer that question because it's not solely up to Blizzard to decide if tournaments will be hosted. We're definitely supportive of them and are looking into ways to open the WCS tiered requirements to include more tournaments into the WCS system.
We are evaluating the current prize pool, but haven't made any decisions to raise it because we're evaluating other ways to support the ecosystem. I'll throw out some questions for everyone's feedback in my next reply.
We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
Kim I already posted it before but in case you missed it, about the season finale
'I hope they wont remove season finals cause the games were great and it created additional storylines , the main problem with this years season finale were that the whole wcs was rushed so the season finale happened right after regional finals , since there will be only 3 wcs seasons next year that means there will be a lot more breathing room = 4-5 weeks after the regionals finals blizz should host season finals = no more forgotten champions + additional storylines since the best of each regions battle it out(more foreigner also in the season finale because of lock)'
On October 15 2013 17:17 kimaphan wrote: We would like to focus on three leagues for WCS 2014, but we want to find ways to further support the scenes in other regions. One way would be to adjust the WCS point system so that it incorporates tournaments and leagues from these other regions in a more meaningful way.
This excites me the most. I think (combined with no season finals and fewer season) could result in even more(,) stacked tournaments (think DH: Bucharest level). So many WCS points came from the season finals that without those the top 16 for Blizzcon could look very different (or at least be very interesting - I do expect some sort of point adjustments).
Two things I'd like Blizzard to consider: - Making Blizzcon larger (32 players) - Guaranty spots for winners of the regional tournaments - maybe even t1 tournaments (winning two events in case Blizzcon remains at 16 players)
EDIT: or similar to how GSL did in the past. Provide premier seeds based on t1/t2 tournament wins.
Interesting answers. I'm sure the 2014 season will be better than 2013. I just hope it becomes more streamlined and that the tournament wins become more significant. It still doesn't feel like a real championship to win the regional finals when there's a seasonal finals right after with a bigger prize pool. I liked what they said that they were going to look to change seasonal finals, because I really think they were a mistake to have throughout the season. Seasonal finals should only be at the end of the season for a grand finale, not throughout the entire year!
Overall I'm excited for 2014, and also for the decision on how region-lock should be handled.
On October 15 2013 17:32 mikkmagro wrote: - Great to see Blizzard listening; It's a pity so many people on here always want to criticise, and never be happy that Blizzard takes such good care of its player base. I was part of the competitive Call of Duty scene on PC, and developers never had any form of post-purchase interaction with their playerbase, nor did they ever invest a fraction of a penny in eSport. So I'm extremely thankful to Blizzard for being awesome.
- I am glad soft region-lock seems to be strongly considered. Citizenship is too strict, and people like DeMusliM and Polt are great for WCS AM, as are StarDust and other Koreans in EU, as long as they are part of the AM/EU scene. Having TaeJa, Jaedong, and other Koreans who practiced in Korea, and only showed up in their respective regions in the RO16 was not helping growth, especially since these Koreans were winning more money than their compatriots in WCS KR, and being less skilled. What would happen, however to NA players like Kane and goswser who are currently living in Europe? Imo, they should be allowed to choose the region to play in. - I welcome the decision to remove the Grand Slams, as they did disrupt storylines, and their atmosphere could be re-created with less expense in events like DreamHack, MLG, Iron Squid, IEM, Assembly etc. They also gave even bigger rewards to players who had already won the top prizes, and the most points. However, I hope that the $450,000 in prize money that is freed up is still somehow invested into the scene.
- Different regions have different circumstances, and I would like to see the Korean region being given some autonomy. Going from 5 GSL events and 1 OSL event, to 2 GSL events and 1 OSL event under WCS, with less prizemoney is not a good thing. I am a bit sad that there does not seem to be any changes here.
- The thing that I was perhaps most disappointed about is the lack of a WCS region for China, Taiwan, South East Asia, Japan, Oceania, and the rest of Asia. Whilst some people may say that this further dilutes viewerbase, and that there aren't enough good players in these regions, I believe this to be incorrect. The market for such a league wouldn't necessarily be the fans in the west, but rather, the Chinese-speaking market, which has tons of potential. It would also have an English cast of course, for the viewers in SEA and AU/NZ and anyone interested in the west. People here should realise that us (the EU and NA market) should not be the only target audience, and I think Blizzard can greatly benefit from more exposure to China and the surrounding regions. Not having a WCS region to the above is of great detriment in my opinion. With that said, it does not mean that it definitely has to have the same prize pool, and the same point distribution as say WCS Korea, but no WCS event whatsoever is really bad in my opinion. Hell, people forget that Taiwan has an SC2 league shown on TV, just like Brood War in Korea. Such a league would also largely eliminate the problems that Chinese players had with WCS America - communication, timezones, travel etc. I really wish Blizzard would re-consider.
- I am aware Blizzard tried organising smaller tournaments for regions without WCS leagues, namely Copa America for Latin America, and the Vengeance Cup for SEA. Whilst these were great, I would really like to see them merged in the WCS.
- I hope WCS support extends to tournaments other than the few we got in 2013. Smaller, but significant tournaments should still be able to give out some (smaller) amount of WCS points. It would be great to see a really global WCS system, where most tournaments matter for the grand finale at BlizzCon. So events like EPS Germany, Shoutcraft America, Fragbite Masters, Ritmix RSL, TeSL, Chinese tournaments, ESET Masters etc. SC2 has many Major Tournaments and Minor Tournaments that unfortunately go below the radar for most.
- Three regions rather than four is actually a good thing - allows for breathing room for other great tournaments. It's a pity something like ATC and SC2L sometimes struggle to keep a regular broadcasting schedule because of WCS, let alone other tournaments that did not happen because WCS is constantly running. It also gives some breathing room for players.
- It's a pity that Team Tournaments still won't be a factor in WCS. Unfortunately, they haven't been the most popular thing since SC2's inception, yet most people fail to realise the importance of teams. It is teams who pay the players' salaries, it is the teams who make the life of pro players more manageable, allowing them to focus solely on their training, and it is teams who are in a much better position to properly market third party sponsors. They are crucial to the life of any eSport, and the focus on 1v1 tournaments has made some traditionally affluent such as SK Gaming, Team Alternate, Virtus.pro, Alliance and Team Empire amongst others going for one or two players rather than a proper team (thus less opportunities for players to become professional gamers); I would really like to see a proper team league in the west, though how this would tie up to WCS, I don't really know!
Hope Blizzard reads! <3
Great feedback! Thank you for taking the time to type this up. Just wanted to let you know we're reading everything posted in this thread.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
Sounds like someone at Blizzard wants to get bonus miles on his credit card
I think almost all of these points come down to the (possible) region lock. Like if you want more Koreans in EU/NA the current non - lock seems to be the right way, if you want more grassroot and amateur players you should look at the "old" WCG with the country locked qualifiers. There isn´t just the ultimate way of doing this.
Personally i think the prize pool should be more spread out. It isn´t that big of a deal if someone like Innovation or Teaja win a tournament and win 30.000 instead of 40.000 but this 10.000 € put into some talent that would be able to make a living out of it would be big.
So i think the "more" money from the finals and maybe just "more" for 2014 sould be spend on more players instead of just giving the winner more that we could come to a point were players can make a healthy living by being constant in challenger and premier.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
Supporting amateur and grassroots level play. Regional tournaments/leagues.
We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
On refocusing resources: I'd think, if you end up implementing some sort of region lock, particularly one based on residence or on having a longer offline portion, you should definately focus some resources on helping players/teams stablish appropiate housing. In my opinion, a reasonable amount of support on this matter should be priority number one.
I'd think the players that are able to stay consistantly in Premier are able to support a pro or semi-pro lifestyle quite well. However, at the moment I feel that it's quite hard to get to that point. That's the reason why having regional semi-pro tournaments (possibly sponsoring someone that could do them, a la Shoutcraft America with TotalBiscuit, but on all three regions), would be an excellent way to grow the scene.
Finally, expanding to a fourth WCS would be an incredible coup. I think everyone has interest on some kind of China/Asia/Australia joint league. This seems like the most obvious market for expansion.
Finally, I'd like to link to a former post of mine regarding region lock/ tournament structure, in case you didn't see. I feel like I brought up some interesting ideas and would love to hear Kim's/the communities opinions. Not copying here since it's a bit of a wall of text. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=432243¤tpage=15#294
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
Brazilians are the best players in football and their league sucks..
I havent seen this as a problem just yet but how do you guys feel about players in WCS who have been: 1. usage of "illegal" drugs such as adderall - which is proven to be very effective to improve a player's skill level in a short span of time. 2. stream cheat(not as prevalent) and map hack during live matches OR usage on ladder(in order to succeed in rankings) 3. match fixing within the teams as we could've seen(as pro gamers) with some of the premier matches last season.
On October 15 2013 17:52 vjcamarena wrote: Dear Miss Phan,
After lurking for years, I've finally decided to register here on TeamLiquid in order to be able to talk to you. (By the by, hi TeamLiquid! You guys rock!)
---Wall of text incoming, sorry about that!---tl,dr at the end---
First of all, I'd like to thank you for posting to the community. I think this is a fantastic step forward for Blizzard and Starcraft II. Just like David Kim and Dustin Browder were particularly active in posting balance updates during the Heart Of The Swarm beta (and have remained very communicative since), I'd love to hear from you often in this period in which significant E-Sports changes will take place (an E-Sports balance patch, if you like!). It takes guts, I'm sure, to reach out to a passionate community that doesn't necessarily agree with what you do, and is a very harsh critic of your work. So, kudos!
I'd also like to say, before I comment on your interview, that I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the 2013 WCS. It has absolutely increased the time I spend watching, discussing and thinking about Starcraft -> and even playing! Having a premier, consistant league-like tournament (as opposed to weekend sprints) in my continent (Europe), happening live at a time that's convenient for me to watch, well, has been nothing short of amazing.
Now, then, to the actual points being discussed here. I'll try to propose concrete, implementable and realistic ways to improve onto WCS. I'll try to illustrate with examples from Europe, as it's the league I follow the most.
-Regarding Region Lock: From an expectating point of view, I love having Koreans in Europe! It's brought me great entertainment to be able to watch my biggest E-Sport hero live (Mvp!). Seeing MC be himself, being awed as duckdeok finally makes a name for himself and just cracks under the importance of the moment, and watching nerchio proclaim "MMA is back!" have all been highlights of my year. From a "growing the scene" perspective, I can only imagine having high-quality practice on ladder and live is great for all scenes. Bringing great players from Korea into America and Europe has the effect of bolstering growth. However, as you say, one of the major points in getting a high viewership is being able to identify with players that reperesent you and your country. I think we all saw, in WCS 2012, that national rivalry in Europe is a strong driver of vierwerships. Keeping some Europeans in WCS Europe definately bolsters that. Plus, it creates a feeling that "I could try to get there", an encouragement that has been needed, particularly in the American scene, I feel.
I'd propose a very soft lock to be able to have our cake, and eat it, too: If possible, moving the Ro32 offline + adding the following requirement: You must be a Grand Master in the European Ladder (either as of "Day X", or during the full run at several times) in order to qualify for the European Premier league (same for other regions, of course). This guarantees non-europeans actually play in the Europe ladder if they want to compete in Europe, "sharing" their strategies. This drives skill up everywhere and avoids someone playing 30 games in a continent and going back home which a trophy, which feels bad. Additionally, this system makes ladder very relevant. If the current Grand Master league is too big/too small, adjust it's size (I mean, it doesn't actually serve any purpose now, so changing it should actually "do anything bad"). Drawing a fixed percentage of players in the Challenger league from players that LIVE in the continent sounds like a good idea too. Please don't make it dependent on being born somewhere. If someone like ForGG/Stardust decides to live in France for years, going away from family and friends in order to compete in Europe, he should be able to opt for one of the reserved seeds.
-Regarding no Region Finals and only 3 Seasons: I actually liked the Region Finals as a tournament. They were very good games by the players most in form at the time. Plus, they allow for some "competition amongst regions", which is excellent in my book. However, I do agree that they do diminish the importance of the regional narratives. Regional tournaments are long and take extensive preparation. Maru overcame all odds to win on WCS Korea, beating Symbol, Innovation and Rain in an impressive tour of force, to then... fall flat in Europe. It feels like weekend bashes a la Dreamhack, IEM, MLG, Red Bull Battlegrounds etc can fulfill the niche of "comparing regions" quite capably, but don't invalidate WCS runs as much, so I like the combination of no season finals with more room for external (non-WCS) tournaments.
-Regarding seeding from one year to the next: I believe Nony made a good point in this thread before: The fact that the last season of this year seeds it's top 8 into the next competition next year feels bad. To put it plainly, why is Mvp's fantastic performance on the first half of the year less relevant than MC's on the second half? Does it really feel correct to seed Targa and Genius, but not ForGG or TLO, who have been more consistant? (No disrespect meant to anyone, I'm using names strictly for their point totals/league placements!) My take would be the following: Every new year wipes all points out. The top 16 in points go to BlizzCon. The seeding for the first WCS lueagues next year is simply the 8 highest point totals in that region (or however many your decide to seed). That takes the whole year into account and adds extra drama to the last tournaments on the year, as maybe someone like, say Lucifron, or Happy, who have been consistently good, and are on the outside looking in on the Europe-based point scale, to try and go to EVERY tournament now in order to get a seed, just like Naniwa just did with IEM in order to try and go to Blizzcon! I understand you may not be able to implement this -this year-. You may have promised the top 8 players they are already seeded. But in that case please consider it for next year.
tl,dr: Thanks for posting, Kim! I like very soft region locks (offline+be grandmaster on the corresponding ladder for access to premier league) best. Seed for next seasons WCS from point totals (per region, ex. the 8 highest point totals from people that competed in Europe) instead "the best 8 in the last WCS Europe are qualified for next year".
Thanks, all, and sorry for the wall of text! I look forward to hearing your opinions!
Thank you for creating a forum account just to post your feedback on here. Much appreciated!
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
Brazilians are the best players in football and their league sucks..
You haven´t watched football for a long time right ?
What would really help this amateur and grassroots thing would be the ability to play and host small/fun tournaments in the sc2 or battle.net client but i think thats a topic for another thread.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
Brazilians are the best players in football and their league sucks..
That's why they play in Europe to gain the money (ignoring the fact that Spain dominates right now and not Brasil :-P ).
And the European League (Champions League) is the hardest -> That's where the money is. The same should be true for Starcraft 2 imo, if more money's on the line in Korea, a Region Lock won't even be necessary, because there's actually a reason to play in Korea :-P
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
Brazilians are the best players in football and their league sucks..
The brazilian league isnt the best. The best players from brazil go the best leagues which are in europe and get payed accordingly. My point was that the korean wcs is the by far the best league in the world and just staying in challenger league is difficult as hell so I would like to see some resources boosting the players who are in the best league in the world but dont get to travel and never win a GSL. Increase the korean prizepool with focus on everyone below top 8 or whatever
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
Brazilians are the best players in football and their league sucks..
That's why they play in Europe to gain the money.
And the European League (Champions League) is the hardest -> That's where the money is. The same should be true for Starcraft 2 imo, if more money's on the line in Korea, a Region Lock won't even be necessary, because there's actually a reason to play in Korea :-P
it's a lot easier to relocate as a gamer compare to a whole team. Aside from the cost, these teams will not be Welcomed by the fans from homeland.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
Brazilians are the best players in football and their league sucks..
That's why they play in Europe to gain the money.
And the European League (Champions League) is the hardest -> That's where the money is. The same should be true for Starcraft 2 imo, if more money's on the line in Korea, a Region Lock won't even be necessary, because there's actually a reason to play in Korea :-P
it's a lot easier to relocate as a gamer compare to a whole team. Aside from the cost, these teams will not be Welcomed by the fans from homeland.
Yeah, but everyone argues that a region lock should be implemented in order to keep the Koreans away. I think a reward to play in the strongest region (-> Korea) would do the job as well
I'd actually like to see Blizzard working more on encouraging smaller, fully region locked tournaments to happen in EU and NA, probably more urgently needed in the NA scene.
I'm saying this because, like in all good sports, you have international competition where you get the best of the best to clash, this is the WCS, but you also have the local scenes where the regional talent has a chance to grow and mature and possibly one day clash with the big boys. A healthy competitive scene of any kind has both, and right now it feels like we are kind of lacking one of those.
A lot of people suggested full region locking, for WCS and a return to last year's system where you had local heroes rise up form EU and NA. That system probably isn't the best way to do it and go forward in regards to Blizzard's plan to get the best players in the world at Blizzcon, it also sort of invalidates the international competition concept.
So with all the above having being said, since we already have the WCS system in place it would be great if Blizzard could now direct some of its resources to support some local talent, during the downtime between WCS seasons.
On October 15 2013 15:51 Gospadin wrote: I just want to know how they're going to ensure their players can get Visas, or if they can't get their visa by a certain deadline, promote players who can legally travel instead of walkovers.
We're planning to set a deadline for all Visas to be obtain before the start of Premier League Ro32. In the event a player is unable to obtain a Visa by the deadline, there will be rules in place to pre-determine who the replacement player will be to advance instead.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
Brazilians are the best players in football and their league sucks..
That's why they play in Europe to gain the money.
And the European League (Champions League) is the hardest -> That's where the money is. The same should be true for Starcraft 2 imo, if more money's on the line in Korea, a Region Lock won't even be necessary, because there's actually a reason to play in Korea :-P
it's a lot easier to relocate as a gamer compare to a whole team. Aside from the cost, these teams will not be Welcomed by the fans from homeland.
Yeah, but everyone argues that a region lock should be implemented in order to keep the Koreans away. I think a reward to play in the strongest region (-> Korea) would do the job as well
I think the point for WCS tournaments in general is the Harness the weaker areas in the world where E-Sports isn't as developed as Korea for example. Hence why the reward is roughly the same.
It might sound unfair if we say "hey, no koreans in foreign tournaments" but we can also say "hey, I wish I was born in korea, where the environment to become a pro gamer is much more realistic than being in the USA" is an excellent example of what exactly Blizzard is trying to do here. It's not who deserves what, it's the global competitiveness and growth of the not-so-lucky E-Sports regions they're looking into investing.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
I disagree with this. The Korean scene is the best, fine, but is the sole future of SC2 in Korea? I would want to see a global scene grow, so Blizzard needs to invest wisely. The Korean scene can probably support itself without too much subsidies in any case.
I posted this somewhere some time ago about WCS Korea but I can't find it so here goes again:
I think the way it currently operates with GSL/OSL holding the tournament and the other one doing a famous piggyback broadcast is restricting the Korean scene a lot and makes it very top heavy. There's a HUGE pool of players that basically have no chance to ever see the light of day because of how much talent there is in Korea that all competes for an extremely limited amount of Challenger League spots - which, if they lose a single Bo3, they immediately lose again and have to start from scratch.
Now, what if OSL and GSL kept their old brand as individual tournaments instead of being WCS Korea - but instead functioned as qualifiers for WCS Korea? You could have OSL and GSL running next to each other and players have to choose between them. Then say the top 16 from both would qualify for WCS Korea that could be run as a shorter season or even a weekend tournament.
What good would this do?
- More chances for up and coming players to get in => more motivation, etc. - It could help stabilize the Korean scene which at the moment is extremely oversaturated - The quality of WCS Korea would not suffer as only the top players of GSL and OSL would qualify. - WCS Korea would have a similar intrigue to it as the season finals - you get to see players from OSL and GSL finally compete against each other and measure their skill - Korean players might not feel the need to "evacuate" to Europe or NA
Overall this is a system that in my opinion works best for Korea because the players live there and having offline tournaments is not an issue there - as long as OGN and GOM would be willing to do it.
The sole fact that Blizzard is paying attention to TL is absolutely amazing, even though it is a little frightening, because there are some very vocal groups on TL pushing opinions that I strongly disagree with. However, I believe that people from a company that has been working with gamers for decades do know how to interpret internet forums, so it will probably be very good.
I would like to use this opportunity to say that I did really like the whole WCS2013 (even though I haven't been really watching Americe because of time reasons). I understand that players, teems and other people from behind the scenes see problems and have issues that need to be addressed, but as a pure consumer of the content, I am really satisfied and would change absolutely nothing.
On October 15 2013 15:51 Gospadin wrote: I just want to know how they're going to ensure their players can get Visas, or if they can't get their visa by a certain deadline, promote players who can legally travel instead of walkovers.
We're planning to set a deadline for all Visas to be obtain before the start of Premier League Ro32. In the event a player is unable to obtain a Visa by the deadline, there will be rules in place to pre-determine who the replacement player will be to advance instead.
Since we have you here and its a thread about wcs could you tell us what will happen if two players are tied at 16th place in the wcs ranking when the seasons are over. How do you determine who gets the spot at blizzcon?
On October 15 2013 18:47 DarkLordOlli wrote: I posted this somewhere some time ago about WCS Korea but I can't find it so here goes again:
I think the way it currently operates with GSL/OSL holding the tournament and the other one doing a famous piggyback broadcast is restricting the Korean scene a lot and makes it very top heavy. There's a HUGE pool of players that basically have no chance to ever see the light of day because of how much talent there is in Korea that all competes for an extremely limited amount of Challenger League spots - which, if they lose a single Bo3, they immediately lose again and have to start from scratch.
Now, what if OSL and GSL kept their old brand as individual tournaments instead of being WCS Korea - but instead functioned as qualifiers for WCS Korea? You could have OSL and GSL running next to each other and players have to choose between them. Then say the top 16 from both would qualify for WCS Korea that could be run as a shorter season or even a weekend tournament.
What good would this do?
- More chances for up and coming players to get in => more motivation, etc. - It could help stabilize the Korean scene which at the moment is extremely oversaturated - The quality of WCS Korea would not suffer as only the top players of GSL and OSL would qualify. - WCS Korea would have a similar intrigue to it as the season finals - you get to see players from OSL and GSL finally compete against each other and measure their skill
Overall this is a system that in my opinion works best for Korea because the players live there and having offline tournaments is not an issue there - as long as OGN and GOM would be willing to do it.
I love this post. This is an excellent way to keep our existing tournaments and support more players. I'd agree that Korea is oversaturated. After all, it wasnt that long ago that bringing Kespa in practically doubled the amount of active SC2 pros in Korea.
The questions here would be: 1)Is there enough demand for such a tournament? If not... maybe there can be more Dreamhack/IEM/MLG/Redbull/... in Korea? 2)Would GSL/OSL operate it? If not, who would? I don't think Blizzard can operate a full tournament in Korea.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
If you are among the best players in a given league, yes. Being in the best league however isn't that irrelevant. The amount of money you make doesn't depend on how hard it is, it depends on how much sponsors are willing to pay. Field hockey players here play at a probably higher level world wide than soccer players, or at least as high. However they earn a fraction of the money soccer players earn. Unfair? Could be, but it is simply a matter how much sponsors are willing to pay.
If you would now have an african Soccer league with the highest level in the world. Do you think those players would earn the most? No, simply because sponsors wouldn't be willing to pay as much, because a Europe for example is a much more interesting market than Africa.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
I disagree with this. The Korean scene is the best, fine, but is the sole future of SC2 in Korea? I would want to see a global scene grow, so Blizzard needs to invest wisely. The Korean scene can probably support itself without too much subsidies in any case.
What future to you see for sc2 in korea if you can be top50 player in the world, work 10 hours a day but still barely make a living?
I think WCS 2014 needs to put more emphasis on the korean scene by: - Letting OSL/GSL run their tournaments - More local development/support for smaller tournaments in korea
General thoughts - Increase prize pools, more spread out prize distribution - Region locking whether that's just through residency or locking players out of a region based their nationality i think the former would be the correct decision IMO. -More content so we can get to know the lesser known talent so storylines can be created early around such players( stuff like what TL is doing is amazing: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=430726 ) - Better scheduling
As this was asked, i'd like to see more support for grassroots tournaments etc. How about a website hosted by blizzard where all tournaments are listed, sorted by region/type of competition/ etc. pp.Blizzard is asking to register the tournament anyway and collecting a lot of data in the process, so why not publish it somewhere to give new people (= new to the scene) the chance to discover them?
edit: this could also be included into the wcs website, e.g. as part of "want to compete yourself? get your first experience here"
On October 15 2013 18:51 sd_andeh wrote: I'd actually like some harsher and more direct questions. These questions were "easily dodged" by Blizzard. Hmm.
Well like it was said in the op, nothing is set by now. They just wanted to give an update and gather some community opinions. Which kind of question should they ask?
Also ask the poorest guy of Blizzard, David Kim, what happens to him every time he makes a statement that is a bit more detailed from "we think the game is balanced" he gets nitpicked and shitstormed.
I don't think there is any doubt that the Korean domination is detrimental to the SC2 scene as a whole.
Compare the difference in interest between "yet another Korean final" and the IEM final this weekend. If you decide to heighten the prize pool for Korea at the cost of the US and EU (where the majority of viewers reside), you risk ensuring that there will continue to be more SC2 pros in Korea than outside it. That is not healthy for SC2.
I appreciate that you tried using Korean players as levers to heighten the level of play in the different regions in 2013, but while I think it made a difference in EU where Korean players resided for longer periods (forgg/stardust), the ship in/ship out tactic of EG/TL/Axiom/Etc. choked out NA players from WCS competition and money.
I think the only way to ensure that the teams wont simply repeat that recipe is a region lock, or better, some sort of requirement of residency for the period of the WCS tournament (excluding other tournaments).
The major SC2 teams have proven to have no qualms with cannibalizing the scenes that are the reasons for their existence, and I suppose you should keep that in mind when you have your discussions with the same teams concerning the future of the WCS.
On October 15 2013 15:51 Gospadin wrote: I just want to know how they're going to ensure their players can get Visas, or if they can't get their visa by a certain deadline, promote players who can legally travel instead of walkovers.
We're planning to set a deadline for all Visas to be obtain before the start of Premier League Ro32. In the event a player is unable to obtain a Visa by the deadline, there will be rules in place to pre-determine who the replacement player will be to advance instead.
Since we have you here and its a thread about wcs could you tell us what will happen if two players are tied at 16th place in the wcs ranking when the seasons are over. How do you determine who gets the spot at blizzcon?
We will announce how tie breakers for will be handled soon. I promise.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
If you are among the best players in a given league, yes. Being in the best league however isn't that irrelevant. The amount of money you make doesn't depend on how hard it is, it depends on how much sponsors are willing to pay. Field hockey players here play at a probably higher level world wide than soccer players, or at least as high. However they earn a fraction of the money soccer players earn. Unfair? Could be, but it is simply a matter how much sponsors are willing to pay.
If you would now have an african Soccer league with the highest level in the world. Do you think those players would earn the most? No, simply because sponsors wouldn't be willing to pay as much, because a Europe for example is a much more interesting market than Africa.
You cant compare different sports to eachother. And if the field hockey league in your country was by far the best in the world by a huge margin but there was a league somewhere else were much worse players made as much or even more money than yeah I would think that was unfair. Especially if you had a field hockey global organisation with a global system controling everything (blizzard).
Blizzard asked where we think some of the reasources should go, so thats why we are even having this discussion. Ofc its mainly up to the teams and players to get their own sponsors.
I think the ideal situation is region lock, but concurrent or semi-concurrent OSL/GSL seasons with bigger prize pools. The foreign scenes need development and focus, but if the Koreans are stuck in Korea with fewer tournaments than ever, small prize pools, and declining fan interest, the scene will die. I think something significant has to be done to try to make the game bigger in Korea as well, basically everything coming from the players lately is extreme pessimism regarding their domestic scene.
I think the most important thing for Blizzard to do is to attempt to support the mid-tier and low-tier players financially. That is, to spread out the prize pools for the WCS to make it easier for people to make a living out of playing sc2. In the end, it is that ability which will foster professional gaming (in the literal sense of the word) and will also raise the ceiling for the competetive foreigner scene when more people can focus on playing.
Obviously the solution to the region lock is to leave it as it is, but then go and smash some servers or pull out some plugs so that the ping between servers will be unbearable and you will have to move. *Nods sagaciously*
You are doing a great job. Keep it up. WCS is fine the way it is, but if you wanted to make a couple of changes then that will be good too. I will agree with any changes that you decide to make. I am truly grateful for this privilege, thank you very much for being so open and transparent for the benefit of the community. I love Blizzard and Starcraft II.
On October 15 2013 15:51 Gospadin wrote: I just want to know how they're going to ensure their players can get Visas, or if they can't get their visa by a certain deadline, promote players who can legally travel instead of walkovers.
We're planning to set a deadline for all Visas to be obtain before the start of Premier League Ro32. In the event a player is unable to obtain a Visa by the deadline, there will be rules in place to pre-determine who the replacement player will be to advance instead.
Since we have you here and its a thread about wcs could you tell us what will happen if two players are tied at 16th place in the wcs ranking when the seasons are over. How do you determine who gets the spot at blizzcon?
We will announce how tie breakers for will be handled soon. I promise.
oh wow nice to see some official blizzard representative here on TL answering stuff :D
The fact is, without a region lock, WCS America is WCS Korea East, and WCS Europe will eventually become (and is rapidly becoming) WCS Korea West.
If the NBA wanted to develop a league in Korea, but made the pay scale the same as the one in the United States, it would rapidly fill with B-level NBA players who looking to make a quick buck. Korean people wouldn't even get to play, and the league would go under. It wouldn't generate interest, no one from Korea would be playing, and it wouldn't become the premier after school sport. If you think this endeavor would be successful, then ask yourself, why isn't the NBA doing it?
The reason the top NBA players come from the United States is because the US has a system to develop talent. It begins in schools, follows to camps during the summer, then into college, and finally the NBA. There are great and experienced coaches at every level. There is no system to develop SC2 talent in the United States. Korea has the system (look at MVP his parents sent him away to a video game camp to learn how to play), they have the coaches. And they produce the best players as a result.
The solution isn't to line up some unpaid US player struggling to practice because has to work versus top paid Koreans on great teams with great coaches and pray he wins. You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year, just like any national basketball team doesn't get good by getting trounced by the US team in the Olympics or World Championships. In fact, the only national teams that give the US a good fight, are ones from countries where the local scene is developed (Greece, Serbia), and where the local scene isn't filled with B-level NBA players! Does anyone remember this article: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285603 ? Stephano and Idra were practicing on their home servers, you don't need to play versus Koreans constantly to get good at SC2.
Therefore the way to develop talent and generate interest in any given region, is to create a system to develop talent. Perhaps the best way of doing that would be to create a league with the same cash prize and then lock the region to locals.
Blizzard seems completely oblivious to this basic logic.
On October 15 2013 15:51 Gospadin wrote: I just want to know how they're going to ensure their players can get Visas, or if they can't get their visa by a certain deadline, promote players who can legally travel instead of walkovers.
We're planning to set a deadline for all Visas to be obtain before the start of Premier League Ro32. In the event a player is unable to obtain a Visa by the deadline, there will be rules in place to pre-determine who the replacement player will be to advance instead.
Since we have you here and its a thread about wcs could you tell us what will happen if two players are tied at 16th place in the wcs ranking when the seasons are over. How do you determine who gets the spot at blizzcon?
We will announce how tie breakers for will be handled soon. I promise.
Ty for the quick response, appreciate you taking the time to answer questions here.
On October 15 2013 19:13 BronzeKnee wrote: The fact is, without a region lock, WCS America is WCS Korea East, and WCS Europe will eventually become (and is rapidly becoming) WCS Korea West.
If the NBA wanted to develop a league in Korea, but made the pay scale the same as the one in the United States, it would rapidly fill with B-level NBA players who looking to make a quick buck. Korean people wouldn't even get to play, and the league would go under. It wouldn't generate interest, no one from Korea would be playing, and it wouldn't become the premier after school sport.
The reason the top NBA players come from the United States is because the US has a system to develop talent. It begins in schools, follows to camps during the summer, then into college, and finally the NBA. There are great and experienced coaches at every level. There is no system to develop SC2 talent in the United States. Korea has the system (look at MVP his parents sent him away to a video game camp to learn how to play), they have the coaches. And they produce the best players.
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year, just like any national basketball team doesn't get good by getting trounced by the US team in the Olympics or World Championships. In fact, the only national teams that give the US a good fight, are ones from countries where the local scene is developed (Greece, Serbia), and where the local scene isn't filled with B-level NBA players! Does anyone remember this article: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285603 ? Stephano and Idra were practicing on their home servers, you don't need to play versus Koreans constantly to get good at SC2.
Therefore the way to develop talent and generate interest in any given region, is to create a system to develop talent. Perhaps the best way of doing that would be to create a league with the same cash prize and then lock the region to locals.
Blizzard seems completely oblivious to this basic logic.
generating interest = developing talent?
If players can get good playing on NA then there's no reason to change WCS at all.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
Growing overall prize pool would be important to keep incentive for the lower segment of the top players to play. To increase the efficiency of the show and putting less stress on the players that you want to be placed at a centered studio (the top players), housing for those players and other logistics would be really good I feel, creating a central spot for eSports enviroment. In the end there has to be some kind of semi reliable income for the players if they are to really put the extra effort in to become really good.
More amateur and grassroot help is ofc also very important, but if there are nothing to strive for, I think it will be hard anyway.
If players can get good playing on NA then there's no reason to change WCS at all.
They can't, that is the point, because it isn't just playing on NA (or KR) that makes you good.
It is getting paid to do it, being on a great team, having a great coach, having your parents send you off to summer camp to learn to play video games... ect. These things happen in Korea.
As I said, the solution isn't to line up some unpaid US player on a random team without a good coach struggling to practice because has to work versus top paid Koreans on great teams with great coaches and pray he wins.
Below is the team that beat the US in at the 2006 FIBA World Championships. I don't recognize a single name and I follow the NBA closely. All grassroots talent, that is where it starts! Like the US, Greece has a system that develops talent.
You don't have to play with the best on a regular basis to beat them. It is true in all sports, Stephano proved it in SC2. You just need to be able to practice enough, meaning you get paid to play, you need to have a good coach and you need to be on a good team.
So a big fat bunch of: We totally listen and haven't decided yet. Ah well good thing this game isn't going anywhere, I guess I can't wait for wcs2015 given that the changes for next year won't be to too big.
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
I strongly support this.
With a strong Korean scene, there would be no doubt about what tournament produces the undisputed best player in the world, and there would be less incentive for koreans to migrate to other regions.
Of course, I would also like a system that allows regional talent foster. I don't think those are contractidory priorities.
The old WCS (2012) was a fantastic instrument to support amateur and grassroots level play (every sc2 owner should have a taste of competition) while creating strong storylines and supporting local talent. I would like it it to come closer to what it was.
Currently, what we have is a system that artificially distributes prize money, in order, to: 1. very top-heavy to a handful of koreans (whoever does well at the season finals); 2. koreans from foreign teams or code-A/code-B level korean players that migrated to other regions; 3. everyone else, mostly to whatever other koreans migrated, but in a much lower scale.
The problem with this distribution isn't just a matter of "justice", but that it drives air time and how players choose to attend tournaments. Instead of a strong and vibrant premier region showing us who the best player in the world is(korean with GSL/OSL), we have a diluted a league with a much smaller prize pool. Instead of tournament that promote local growth and give local players a realistic chance of a decent prize pool (old WCS), we have almost 2/3 of the competitive scene "attention" being about code-A/code-B korean players vs other code-A/code-b korean players, with the ocasional foreigner making it to the round of 16. Of course this isn't very interesting.
In other words, realistically, the old competitive setup from 2012 was booted in favor of supporting players like Apocalypse, Alive, Heart, Revival and duckdeok. No offense to these players, but they are neither the best in the world nor the most interesting to follow, and yet they are the ones being most favored with how the prize distribution is going and getting the most air time.
How to fix this?
With a strong GSL/OSL leagues, it would support players that are good and consistently do well against tough competion. Players that consistently make ro16 or ro8 in korea, but that currently have less of a shot at making it Blizzcon. It would also make it clear who the "best in the world" is.
With a locked national/regional WCS system (like in 2012), it would estimulate grassroot play, give attention to local followers to know who the best and their area is, and give foreigners a honest shot at making some money (but still less than in the premier region - korea, which they could choose to attend with they want to be the best, like huk, stephano, scarlett, jinro, idra and naniwa did before).
The foreigner vs korean storyline would be promoted at the end of year WCS tournament and in stand-alone events. The truth is, foreigner vs korean is only interesting to watch when it is top koreans vs top foreigner. What we currently watch in WCS EU and WCS AM isn't the most interesting competition, but IEM NYC really was, just like the GSL with foreigners.
Basically, directing the system to what it was in 2012 seems like a clear best option, instead of having the current WCS where uninteresting second-tier koreans are promoted in exchange of local players or the best players.
Sorry if I sounded harsh, but I don't know how else to express this opinions. Thanks again for taking the time to adress the community.
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
true i dont watch any tourney with just koreans in it it got boring after all these years... watching favourite Team/Region/Country heroes beat the best is what fuels sports
On October 15 2013 19:21 Lorch wrote: So a big fat bunch of: We totally listen and haven't decided yet. Ah well good thing this game isn't going anywhere, I guess I can't wait for wcs2015 given that the changes for next year won't be to too big.
Having one of those days? I had one yesterday, was pissed at everyone and everything :S Why dont you write down what changes you want to see. Saying you want "big changes" doesnt do much good.
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
EDIT: The creation of a Chinese region would definitely foster the growth of SC2. An unprecedented number of middle class Chinese now with easy access to internet etc etc means there is potentially a HUGE market for SC2
2014 is not the year to make drastic changes but instead make improvements to what we currently have established.
"2014 is not the year" = buy LotV please
"make drastic changes" = once everybody has bought LotV we drop sc2 as an esport
"but instead make improvements to what we currently have established." = damage control until Blizzard all star or Heartstone becomes more lucrative than Sc2
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
In my opinion, new regions should be the priority. At the moment, the scene is depending lots on fans in Europe and America - however Asia in general is a huge market which isn't being given enough attention. With the increased support to Asia, particularly China, you would be increasing 'awareness' of the game in the region, and that would lead to a bigger playerbase, and a bigger viewerbase, which is exactly what both Blizzard, and the scene need.
On October 15 2013 19:19 BronzeKnee wrote: You don't have to play with the best on a regular basis to beat them. It is true in all sports, Stephano proved it in SC2. You just need to be able to practice enough, meaning you get paid to play, you need to have a good coach and you need to be on a good team.
I just don't understand what this has to do with Blizzard?
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
How is he retarded and makes you sick? He is completely right. Sure watching top level Koreans play is nice. But watching only Koreans play gets boring really fast.
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
How is he retarded and makes you sick? He is completely right. Sure watching top level Koreans play is nice. But watching only Koreans play gets boring really fast.
Your thinly-veiled racism is what makes me sick BRO
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
Would be awesome if 2014 WCS could be a mix of 2012 and 2013 WCSs. In 2012 WCS the whole world was involved because of the local qualifiers in every country but once it finished many players had nothing else to do if they didn't advance to the next stage. For 2013 players have competition all year long but unfortunately not everybody is involved. That is why I wish there were new regions of even sub divisions of the existing regions, to involve more players and fans from everywhere during all year.
Maybe increasing the prize pool is not needed if there are more tournaments. Specially in Korea. What about GSL and OSL concurrently with WCS KR?
The support for amateurs would come from improvements "in game" in my opinion, like providing in game tournaments,
Also, only people playing the offline part of WCS need travel/housing support.
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
How is he retarded and makes you sick? He is completely right. Sure watching top level Koreans play is nice. But watching only Koreans play gets boring really fast.
Your thinly-veiled racism is what makes me sick BRO
Ok, wanting to see local player is not racist. People need to stop throwing that word around every time some talks about wanting to see more local players at events
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
How is he retarded and makes you sick? He is completely right. Sure watching top level Koreans play is nice. But watching only Koreans play gets boring really fast.
Your thinly-veiled racism is what makes me sick BRO
ye bro wanting to watch more diversity of nationalities is totally racist..
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
How is he retarded and makes you sick? He is completely right. Sure watching top level Koreans play is nice. But watching only Koreans play gets boring really fast.
Your thinly-veiled racism is what makes me sick BRO
ye bro wanting to watch more diversity of nationalities is totally racist..
So... get better at the game and stop trying to get subsidization from Blizzard. If you suck, move to Korea and figure it out if it's your dream. Code B Koreans deal with it.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
Kim,
I think that even in an individual based eSport like Starcraft has largely become, there's no reason why the team aspect can't be or shouldn't be highly emphasized. Its a big part of what makes the game and scene understandable, palatable, and attractive to the uninitiated. (See Xeris's awesome analysis on the reasons for the lack of stability and growth in Starcraft eSports and Carmac's analysis of how to bring stability and growth back to the scene.) A very compelling way of region locking WCS would be to require each team to choose a region and all of their players would have to compete in that region for the year. If the premier league was offline, then doing so would encourage the development of each regional scene, draw Korean pro-gamers to other regions which would help to transplant the Korean pro-gaming system of practice and management, and would allow the system to both promote and leverage teams rather than only individual personalities which would bring a lot more stability to the scene.
Then, you could prioritize creating professional studio level production and funding housing for teams which would help professionalize the scene, decrease the barrier of entry for new teams, reward those teams that are successful not only with monetary help but also with a way to incentivize players to join them, and lay the groundwork for a bigger, more comprehensive future eSports system. You would obviously then need to be contacting teams rather than individual players about WCS things but really, that's the way it should be anyway. Teams own the rights to their players and act as their promoters/agents/representation.
Most importantly, remember that big and fundamental changes to the way that Blizzard approaches eSports will probably be necessary to make something like WCS truly successful. Nobody, and I mean nobody gets it right on the first try. What makes companies successful in this crazy internet based world will never be their rate of success for individual attempts at reaching their goal(s) but rather their ability to quickly and accurately change the direction of their efforts or respond to the needs of their community to make things better. It's not about strength but about agility.
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
How is he retarded and makes you sick? He is completely right. Sure watching top level Koreans play is nice. But watching only Koreans play gets boring really fast.
Your thinly-veiled racism is what makes me sick BRO
ye bro wanting to watch more diversity of nationalities is totally racist..
So... get better at the game and stop trying to get subsidization from Blizzard. If you suck, move to Korea and figure it out if it's your dream. Code B Koreans deal with it.
code B koreans are already in korea you know other people arent from korea.. just saying
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
How is he retarded and makes you sick? He is completely right. Sure watching top level Koreans play is nice. But watching only Koreans play gets boring really fast.
Your thinly-veiled racism is what makes me sick BRO
He's right, i don't mind watching TOP KOREANS, in WCS GSL or Proleague, but Code A dropouts coming to NA/EU and winning because they have a different culture/training regiment toward the game is lame.
I have nothing to say about Jaedong, MMA or Her0 who keep improving even if they play on NA/EU but would Revival, Heart, Crank or Alive even be in challenger league in Korea? I don't think so and these are the players making WCS NA stale and boring.
I feel for you Kim, not easy to argue with fans especially when every single one is convinced his solution is the best. I'll believe in Blizzard, I hope they will save their game but it won't be if Koreans are not grounded home, even if this solution hurts them.
I would like to thank Kim for answering on the TL forum. A sunny hello form South Africa. Can’t we also get a region? (Just joking, not enough players) It warms the heart that Blizzards makes the effort to communicate with the fans.
As for the question in where to allocated money, I think travel cost is a big killer for some people.
To the rest, stop moaning and give some feedback, not every day you get the chance to talk to Blizzard.
I feel theres way too many negative nerds on TL. Theres being proactive and giving contructive criticism then theres just plain moaning. Too much of the latter.
I personally have loved this years WCS and couldn't imagine my year without it (with some of its small faults)
I feel the consistant negativity on TL is the main reason for the so called 'fall' of SC2. Wasn't there 80k or so viewers for IEM final? Lets try and be more positive and constructive than forever complaining
Please guys. Stop moaning about people moaning and not giving feedback and give some actual feedback. After all, it is not everyday that we get an opportunity to talk to Blizzard.
On October 15 2013 19:52 DrBeansy wrote: I feel theres way too many negative nerds on TL. Theres being proactive and giving contructive criticism then theres just plain moaning. Too much of the latter.
I personally have loved this years WCS and couldn't imagine my year without it (with some of its small faults)
I feel the consistant negativity on TL is the main reason for the so called 'fall' of SC2. Wasn't there 80k or so viewers for IEM final? Lets try and be more positive and constructive than forever complaining
Almost 100K at peak actually! Its by far been the most successful IEM so far by the viewer count and it was Starcraft II only and hosted at another convention's venue. The fact that they drew such epic viewership under those circumstances (especially given direct time slot competition with the SLTV finals) is actually extremely impressive and encouraging for the future of Starcraft.
I think that for events like IEM and Dreamhack the WCS point distribution could be very top heavy. In that case, winning the tournament is meaningful in terms of qualifying for Blizzcon, but being part of a rich team that can fly you around the world won't be too rewarding if you never get to the finals of any of these tournaments. Although to be honest, it's probably in Blizzard's interest to want the recognizable Koreans to be able to gather points here and there to qualify for Blizzcon. They (and some part of the community) would probably prefer Hero, Taeja, Polt and Jaedong to be there.
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
How is he retarded and makes you sick? He is completely right. Sure watching top level Koreans play is nice. But watching only Koreans play gets boring really fast.
Your thinly-veiled racism is what makes me sick BRO
He's right, i don't mind watching TOP KOREANS, in WCS GSL or Proleague, but Code A dropouts coming to NA/EU and winning because they have a different culture/training regiment toward the game is lame.
I have nothing to say about Jaedong, MMA or Her0 who keep improving even if they play on NA/EU but would Revival, Heart, Crank or Alive even be in challenger league in Korea? I don't think so and these are the players making WCS NA stale and boring.
I feel for you Kim, not easy to argue with fans especially when every single one is convinced his solution is the best. I'll believe in Blizzard, I hope they will save their game but it won't be if Koreans are not grounded home, even if this solution hurts them.
It feels like you're confusing "top Koreans" with "famous Koreans"
What does Blizzard think of team leagues and their place in the scene? Is there any way they might be incorporated into the WCS system?
We think team leagues are great and we’re supportive of them, but we do not have any plans to incorporate them directly into the WCS system in 2014. However, we do have ideas around how we can make WCS points more meaningful to teams and players by encouraging team spirit and support in WCS. One idea is to track a WCS team ranking based on the points earned by players on teams. From there, we could potentially do something fun—for example, inviting the top-ranked teams with the most WCS points to compete in an exhibition match at a major tournament event. We’ll be putting more thought around this moving forward and look forward to hearing the community’s ideas as well.
On October 15 2013 19:52 DrBeansy wrote: I feel theres way too many negative nerds on TL. Theres being proactive and giving contructive criticism then theres just plain moaning. Too much of the latter.
I personally have loved this years WCS and couldn't imagine my year without it (with some of its small faults)
I feel the consistant negativity on TL is the main reason for the so called 'fall' of SC2. Wasn't there 80k or so viewers for IEM final? Lets try and be more positive and constructive than forever complaining
Almost 100K at peak actually! Its by far been the most successful IEM so far by the viewer count and it was Starcraft II only and hosted at another convention's venue. The fact that they drew such epic viewership under those circumstances (especially given direct time slot competition with the SLTV finals) is actually extremely impressive and encouraging for the future of Starcraft.
I really like people with that kind of mindset. I wish everyone on TL to be like that person. To receive a respect... And this would help SC2, trust me!
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You should use the resources to support the korean scene more. Korea has the hardest region, the true premier league, and the best players in the world. We all know this, they are dominating. Look at any sport in the world and you will find that if you are among the best players in the world and playing the in the best league in the world you will naturally earn more than the rest.
I disagree with this. The Korean scene is the best, fine, but is the sole future of SC2 in Korea? I would want to see a global scene grow, so Blizzard needs to invest wisely. The Korean scene can probably support itself without too much subsidies in any case.
What future to you see for sc2 in korea if you can be top50 player in the world, work 10 hours a day but still barely make a living?
As I said, I think the Korean scene is better developed than others and can take care of itself without too much subsidizes from Blizzard. This means other sponsors, events etc.
Let me turn it around: If Blizzard puts most of its resources in the Korean scene, what future do you see in SC2 if all we have are Korean players dominating year in and year out? I'm sure you have seen many say that they would lose interest rather quickly if only Koreans are on the line-up, and I completely agree. I couldn't believe my eyes when I watched IEM NY and Naniwa making it to the final, I was so nervous and in to the game being a Naniwa fan, but let me tell you, if Blizzcon comprise 16 Koreans, I don't really have a stake in it and I'm not going to watch it. Same as ice-hockey, I love it, but I don't keep much track of NHL, although it is the best league. My interest lies with the EU players and how well they can do in local as well as global tournaments. I want to see the upcoming European players have a scene to grow in and I think this should be the case for the whole America (not just NA) and Asia-Australia as well. Korean players will still dominate for the foreseeable future, no doubt, but if Blizzard would put the majority of its resources there to the extent that there is no way for other talents to develop their skills beyond happy amateurs, then SC2 will become a Korean affair, maybe with some interest of the occasional foreigner, it will not grow to become a global game. If the price for this is to sacrifice Korea's number 50, well, tough luck for him/her and good luck in future undertakings, but it would be a sacrifice for the greater good of the SC2. The 49 best Koreans would still be there and I'm sure all the other players aspire to be one of them.
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
How is he retarded and makes you sick? He is completely right. Sure watching top level Koreans play is nice. But watching only Koreans play gets boring really fast.
First of all, the topic was how to increase the skill of the domestic players, not what is nicer to watch. And second, there are examples that a region lock will not promote the skill of the players, e.g. the Taiwanese league and the German EPS.
Can people please stop complaining about Koreans winning everything. They aren't born with an advantage. Starcraft 2 has been out for more than three years + beta and foreigners haven't managed to adapt their training schedules to be able to compete with Koreans. It's their own fault. Koreans are better therefore they deserve more money than they've been given this season. If you look at Europe and NA there is a bunch of new players surfacing mostly in challenger league. That's because Blizzard has fed much money into this regions thus increasing the number of high tier players, but WCS Korea got whey too little price pool from WCS distribution that's why they went to play to other regions, many retired and that's why there is a big lack of new players in Korea.
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
How is he retarded and makes you sick? He is completely right. Sure watching top level Koreans play is nice. But watching only Koreans play gets boring really fast.
Your thinly-veiled racism is what makes me sick BRO
I am not your bro dude...
(Okay that was easy).
But it is racist to cheer for local players? Where local here has a pretty broad definition. Then I assume you want during international sporting events all fans arrested for racism? Since pretty much all of them are cheering for their local athletes. At IEM 70% of the TL people who voted on the poll wanted Naniwa to win. Now lets be honest, Naniwa isn't the most well behaved person in the history of SC2. So does that mean at least 20% (to get to 50-50) of the TL'ers is racist for voting on Naniwa?
Btw random accusations of racism when you don't have real arguments is what makes me sick. Worst is that due to those pointless whines real cases of racism get burried under a load of political correct BS cases.
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
How is he retarded and makes you sick? He is completely right. Sure watching top level Koreans play is nice. But watching only Koreans play gets boring really fast.
First of all, the topic was how to increase the skill of the domestic players, not what is nicer to watch. And second, there are examples that a region lock will not promote the skill of the players, e.g. the Taiwanese league and the German EPS.
Of course you have to think about it before you lock something. For example a WCG is pointless for many countries. I don't think there even were qualifiers in the Netherlands, but even if there were, it wouldn't be really interesting. We simply don't have enough roughly similarly skilled players at the top to make a fun tournament.
However if you look at all of europe we do have enough players to do that.
I really really liked Season finals. Besides Life's games, Season finals and KR finals are basically the only games I actually watch anymore because I don't have a lot of time, and it being all on one weekend lets me set aside a part of my schedule for it.
You don't get good at SC2 by going 0-4 in group stages versus Koreans twice a year
^This.
Simple as that.
I'll add that should Naniwa be dropped out of it, which is likely to happen at this point, I won't follow the streams of Blizzcon finals. I probably won't be the only one.
A Blizzard representative comes and tries to answer fans' questions about WCS 2014 and you post something like this? You are literally, mind-bogglingly retarded. Go play a different game. Makes me sick.
Oh. And may I know which part exactly in my message might have triggered this outrageous outburst of rightful indignation?
Is it the part where I agree that being 2 Bo3 away from ruining your whole season might not be the best incentive for players to invest in the game in the long run?
Or is it the part where I suggest that the current elimination and points system will drop off the finals someone like Naniwa who would fully deserve his place there, and that foreigner runs actually have an impact on the exposure of the game and the excitement it provides? Don't like it? That's simply the way things are, and it is not because the world is filled with nasty racists. Look at the viewing figures.
Or perhaps do you suggest Mrs. Phan requires a full wall of text by each contributor to prepare her feedback, rather than concise points that matter to followers?
Please sunshine, enlighten us.
@JustPassingBy; it's definetely not about "what is nicer to watch". It is about rewarding the players that work harder and perform consistently. Which the current system does poorly.
Hmmm, no seasonal finals and only 3 seasons? Weren't players already complaining there weren't enough tournaments to play in? Not sure how this makes any sense honestly
This Q&A could've been from the average german politician. Giving the least possible amount of information with the highest possible amount of words.
Edit: I'm not saying there's no information at all. But hey, if you're not willing to give details or information, just say "we're not giving out details at this point in time" instead of talking about how much you tried in the past.
Please Region Lock WCS so it will actually be interesting. Proving who the best Korean, who doesn't think they can compete in WCS Korea, in WCS EU and AM is not an interesting storyline. Sorry.
Yeah, that was a really unedifying interview.... Basically the only real changes they are ready to admit is that they want to change some of the structure of the feed ins from Challenger league, make a clearer schedule to allow for more outside tournaments... and that's kind of it because everything else is up in the air or they aren't ready to announce it.
Sigh. I hope they are listening to some of the ominous stuff coming out of the Korean pro houses, they need more cash flow considering how well they are playing there.
My feedback: please find a way to better include / promote WCS in-game. Maybe a new tab dedicated to WCS, maybe a more eye-catchy "video" or "news" section.
On October 15 2013 21:31 Littlesheep wrote: Please Region Lock WCS so it will actually be interesting. Proving who the best Korean, who doesn't think they can compete in WCS Korea, in WCS EU and AM is not an interesting storyline. Sorry.
So instead of Taeja vs Jaedong, you want to see Drunkenboi vs Guitarcheese?
On October 15 2013 21:25 boxerfred wrote: This Q&A could've been from the average german politician. Giving the least possible amount of information with the highest possible amount of words.
Edit: I'm not saying there's no information at all. But hey, if you're not willing to give details or information, just say "we're not giving out details at this point in time" instead of talking about how much you tried in the past.
Exactly. Why even take questions? Just put out a flat statement with what you are willing to talk about and clarify what is still up in the air. I had to read 2 pages of nothing to find out maybe 3 hard points of data.
1. Soft region lock, 2/3 of the spots in premiere league and challengers league reserved for people that live in that region. 2. Remove season finals but transfer all of the money to the regions instead. 3. Increase the total price pool but make it less top heavy (i.e. more money in round of 32 and 16).
4. Increase the WCS points you get from non-WCS tournaments (Dreamhack etc). 5. Make sure that you have longer periods between the seasons so that we can look forward to non-WCS events. As it is, WCS made me less motivated to watch normal tournaments since I was fed Starcraft from WCS all the time. 6. Maybe seed tournaments not only by skill but also on player popularity. Reserve a few spots for wild card players that are popular and make people tune in. I know this one is controversial but I am more interested to watch White-Ra, Naniwa, MC, MVP etc than some generic but more skilled korean.
7. Stop forcing tournament organisers to pay a percentage of the price pool (above a certain threshold) to Blizzard. That is just wrong and damages Starcraft. 8. Make mech viable in all matchups. This increases the variety of strategies and counter strategies which we will see, which will make the game more interesting to watch. 9. Make counter units soft counters instead of hard counters. Tempest prevents BC from even being built, no unit should work like that. Imagine if all/most units were viable at pro level, the game would be more varied and fun to watch.
10. Put pressure on twitch.tv to improve their service. WCS Europe and WCS America often lagged a lot for many viewers. I know my personal viewing experiece was often destroyed due to lag even though I have very high bandwidth and can watch anything else in streaming HD including WCS Korea.
Talking about storyline when you just can't use their website to see the groups in the order that they were played and in the region you can't watch.
For exemple i really like to watch all the matches for all the regions when possible. But... VODs are not uploaded or missing or very late. You watch GROUP A because well.. it's the first group and in the first match you here how this player DESTROYED GROUP D and i'm like... well ok i'm not going to watch group D, and when you have to come to TL to see what is the order of the matches played... you spoiler yourself like 50% of time because you open the wrong thread or the wrong group etc...
I feel that they need to do something for WCS KR and USA because it's just unwatchable in EU (of couse the is valid for EU and KR for a USA perspective etc...)
About region lock, i feel that you have to do region locks for team (if your team is based in KR you play in KR, if your team is based in USA you play in USA) etc.. Like the soccer teams.
And you can have every 4 years something like olympic where this is country lock.
Also Twitch is like unwatchable at times in medium with a uber connection. They need to do something, take something else for provider, i don't know but lag into GG is not something we want to see.
Better handling of problems. Like IEM had a huge problem that ok was not their fault but for explanation, excuse, publication or something... we have an ad for a tablet and a : "Ok with fucked this move on with the next match".
If wcs have to include all tournaments, they need to handle the news, groups of tournament on ONE website and keep inform people better that an embbed twitch stream with results on the page with a spoiler thing that does not work properly (masking all the group but the last 2 for exemple) or having to load the page where the blank text is put at the end (so while it's loading you see all the results on your screen)
7. Stop forcing tournament organisers to pay a percentage of the price pool (above a certain threshold) to Blizzard. That is just wrong and damages Starcraft.
Just WTF is this ? I didn't even know that.. That's utter bullshit. Sorry but this is just dumb. (that blizzard is doing this. Not that you wrote a dumb thing)
On October 15 2013 21:45 MockHamill wrote: I think the following needs to be done.
1. Soft region lock, 2/3 of the spots in premiere league and challengers league reserved for people that live in that region. 2. Remove season finals but transfer all of the money to the regions instead. 3. Increase the total price pool but make it less top heavy (i.e. more money in round of 32 and 16).
4. Increase the WCS points you get from non-WCS tournaments (Dreamhack etc). 5. Make sure that you have longer periods between the seasons so that we can look forward to non-WCS events. As it is, WCS made me less motivated to watch normal tournaments since I was fed Starcraft from WCS all the time. 6. Maybe seed tournaments not only by skill but also on player popularity. Reserve a few spots for wild card players that are popular and make people tune in. I know this one is controversial but I am more interested to watch White-Ra, Naniwa, MC, MVP etc than some generic but more skilled korean.
7. Stop forcing tournament organisers to pay a percentage of the price pool (above a certain threshold) to Blizzard. That is just wrong and damages Starcraft. 8. Make mech viable in all matchups. This increases the variety of strategies and counter strategies which we will see, which will make the game more interesting to watch. 9. Make counter units soft counters instead of hard counters. Tempest prevents BC from even being built, no unit should work like that. Imagine if all/most units were viable at pro level, the game would be more varied and fun to watch.
I think point 4 is problematic because it will mean a greater Korean dominance. In the present system it is really up to a good run if you make it far. So a new challenger can appear and sweep aside other players. If DH and others give more points this will reinforce the dominance of other players.
Point 6 is probably not a good idea really. Unfortunately there is a reason that WhiteRa isn't in the WCS. Sure, I love the guy, but I get other chances to see various showmatches with him in. I don't think we ever need to give handouts due to popularity.
Otherwise I think it's pretty good, but I think you're also confusing balance changes with the WCS format. There are other threads for balance/game philosophy discussions.
On October 15 2013 21:31 Littlesheep wrote: Please Region Lock WCS so it will actually be interesting. Proving who the best Korean, who doesn't think they can compete in WCS Korea, in WCS EU and AM is not an interesting storyline. Sorry.
So instead of Taeja vs Jaedong, you want to see Drunkenboi vs Guitarcheese?
I'd like to see Taeja and Jaedong in WCS Korea, which is a lot weaker without these players.
Drunkenboi and Guitarcheese are NA #1 and #2? News to me..
I personally think they are looking in the right direction. I do think though that if someone is playing in a region they HAVE to be located in that area.... even if korean players want to go to AM or EU they have to move there before the season starts....or vice versa that type of region lock would be worth looking into... If they wanted tohave some slots for movement they could always do like a player trading system........
On October 15 2013 21:31 Littlesheep wrote: Please Region Lock WCS so it will actually be interesting. Proving who the best Korean, who doesn't think they can compete in WCS Korea, in WCS EU and AM is not an interesting storyline. Sorry.
So instead of Taeja vs Jaedong, you want to see Drunkenboi vs Guitarcheese?
I'd like to see Taeja and Jaedong in WCS Korea, which is a lot weaker without these players.
Drunkenboi and Guitarcheese are NA #1 and #2? News to me..
On October 15 2013 08:41 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
Some general ideas we have been considering include carving out a portion of player slots dedicated to legal residents that would guarantee players living in a particular region would always have a consistent chance to make it into Challenger League. Also, we are pushing for more of our broadcast content to happen in a physical studio environment, inevitably pushing players to commit to longer periods of time where they must reside locally.
I posted this on a reddit thread about 2 weeks ago. If they actually pull this off, it'll probably help so much..
changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
You couldn't enjoy TaeJa vs JD yesterday because it was WCS NA instead of WCS KR?
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
I really don't understand why people say that. It is so boring watching good people face eachother? Does race or the place you come from really affect the games? Sometimes it introduces new styles, sometimes it causes those who you want to win to struggle. OK, I get that people want their favorites to get far. If they're not as good, I don't see how you can blame someone who kicks their ass just because they are korean.
Removing the season finals is probably a good idea. As is cutting the number of WCSs. I don't know about everyone else but this year its felt like I've been unable to move for WCS and frankly I'd partly given up on trying to follow it all.
And to make it worse it came at the expense of "THE" premier tournament in GSL Code S which was reduced to hardly anything this year and was mixed in a mish-mash with the OSL for WCS Korea. I just want Code S properly back; WCS doesn't feel as elite as Code S was. Especially given that a lot of players just dispersed to other regions.
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
I really don't understand why people say that. It is so boring watching good people face eachother? Does race or the place you come from really affect the games? Sometimes it introduces new styles, sometimes it causes those who you want to win to struggle. OK, I get that people want their favorites to get far. If they're not as good, I don't see how you can blame someone who kicks their ass just because they are korean.
Getting tired of this crap.
Backing you up
Proleague didn't have europeans or north american. All koreas (with few exceptions). It was the best starcraft we ever watched. I don't know why people complain. idra was good so we saw him in korean teams. Grrr kicked koreans ass. But... if i had to choose between, a boxer played match and a foreigner match... Why on earth would you chose the foreigner ?
I am excited to see what they pull off for next seasons and that they are working with people like Naz'Gul and taking feed back. A more open season with room for Dream hacks, shout crafts and other event is best for everyone. Some soft region lock will be provide a bit more room for local players. Or they could so local and non local qualifiers and adjust the number of slots as needed.
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
I really don't understand why people say that. It is so boring watching good people face eachother? Does race or the place you come from really affect the games? Sometimes it introduces new styles, sometimes it causes those who you want to win to struggle. OK, I get that people want their favorites to get far. If they're not as good, I don't see how you can blame someone who kicks their ass just because they are korean.
Getting tired of this crap.
Yes, actually. I enjoy watching Koreans because I like watching good Starcraft. However, I get way more excited by a match when there's a Grubby or a Naniwa or a Stephano facing off against a Korean or vying for a finals spot. I can identify with those kinds of players a lot easier than I can with most of the Korean players. It's a really nice bonus, and tournament stream numbers consistently reflect this. MLG/IEM/Dreamhack numbers have always reported sharp drops after a non-Korean favorite is knocked out.
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
I really don't understand why people say that. It is so boring watching good people face eachother? Does race or the place you come from really affect the games? Sometimes it introduces new styles, sometimes it causes those who you want to win to struggle. OK, I get that people want their favorites to get far. If they're not as good, I don't see how you can blame someone who kicks their ass just because they are korean.
Getting tired of this crap.
Backing you up
Proleague didn't have europeans or north american. All koreas (with few exceptions). It was the best starcraft we ever watched. I don't know why people complain. idra was good so we saw him in korean teams. Grrr kicked koreans ass. But... if i had to choose between, a boxer played match and a foreigner match... Why on earth would you chose the foreigner ?
If the foreigners are as or more skilled, there should be no difference. I don't care if the players are korean or not, as long as they are sympathetic and good players, and it's silly of people to do...
I want to see high level matches, that's why I want a GSL or OSL that isn't missing half the best players since they are off in another tournament. If you want to watch the best players you should be in favor of region locking, not against.
Season finals would make sense if the skill discrepancy wasn't so huge.
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
I really don't understand why people say that. It is so boring watching good people face eachother? Does race or the place you come from really affect the games? Sometimes it introduces new styles, sometimes it causes those who you want to win to struggle. OK, I get that people want their favorites to get far. If they're not as good, I don't see how you can blame someone who kicks their ass just because they are korean.
Getting tired of this crap.
Backing you up
Proleague didn't have europeans or north american. All koreas (with few exceptions). It was the best starcraft we ever watched. I don't know why people complain. idra was good so we saw him in korean teams. Grrr kicked koreans ass. But... if i had to choose between, a boxer played match and a foreigner match... Why on earth would you chose the foreigner ?
If the foreigners are as or more skilled, there should be no difference. I don't care if the players are korean or not, as long as they are sympathetic and good players, and it's silly of people to do...
Exactly. You don't watch a bad player because he is a foreigner. You watch good player no matter their nationality. Am i good ?
I..I just started skimming about half-way through because I realized they don't actually know what they're talking about.
Why can't WCS America/Europe operate like GSL did before they were pre-empted by Blizzard? Everything's in studio, so you have to actually live in the region you're plundering of money. It's not like they even have to go somewhere to figure this out - GSL ran for three years doing the exact same thing and kicking ass every season. JUST DO WHAT THEY DID.
This is basically a Blizzard press release in which they take everything the community wanted and said "Yeah, we're thinking about it."
They conveniently forget to mention the NA scene all but dying. That's nice. If they were really answering our questions/concerns, they would mention that more than just "fostering growth of the local scene" being "baggage" that comes with letting Jaedong tromp through WCS NA with his fellow Koreans.
I like how they take the marginalization of an entire scene to little more than what, 4 pros, and call it "baggage." No, it's the death of an entire source of pro-players, and with it a reason for (spit balling here, obviously) at least a 1/3 of your viewer base for watch.
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
Then watch the Zotac Cups, to see local talent play, i do. But I think you are in for a fright when the novelty wears off and the viewership plummets because of the lock.
People who are hardcore will want to see Code S standard play, and how are the players going to improve without a challenge. hell Idra could come out of retirement today and cake walk it to a WCS NA final if there are no Koreans in it
Me personally i will exclusively be watching WCS KR only, unless Polt manages to stay in NA.
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
I really don't understand why people say that. It is so boring watching good people face eachother? Does race or the place you come from really affect the games? Sometimes it introduces new styles, sometimes it causes those who you want to win to struggle. OK, I get that people want their favorites to get far. If they're not as good, I don't see how you can blame someone who kicks their ass just because they are korean.
Getting tired of this crap.
Well, you just said the answer to the very thing you claim not to understand. People have favorites they want to watch. If they get knocked out way too early, the interest to continue to watch is not there. No one is blaming the better opponent for this, but rather the way the system is built, allowing Koreans to totally dominate every WCS region, effectively crowding out the local talent from the qualifier through the challenger league up to premier league. I don't think I can explain this more clearly, but if you still don't understand, then by all means, ask again.
The WCS KR will always be there for those that want to watch arguably the best of the best, so it is not like people are getting robbed of this if a region lock is introduced. For me, WCS EU 2013 has had a number of highly entertaining games and I have watched as much as I could. While some argue that the Koreans have added "spice" to it, I'd say there is hardly any need for this in WCS EU, and throughout qualifiers, challenger league and premier league no-one can say that the only games worth watching were those with Koreans in them, that is simply not the case.
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
Then watch the Zotac Cups, to see local talent play, i do. But I think you are in for a fright when the novelty wears off and the viewership plummets because of the lock.
People who are hardcore will want to see Code S standard play, and how are the players going to improve without a challenge. hell Idra could come out of retirement today and cake walk it to a WCS NA final if there are no Koreans in it
Me personally i will exclusively be watching WCS KR only, unless Polt manages to stay in NA.
I would be willing to be money that most people are not hardcore "I only want to see top level Korean play" tournament watchers.
@Grumbels Thank you ! <3 I have thought this for a long time now. If we want the game skill to grow it would work like a pyramid. If all the best players were in korea They would be forced to play eachother making their skills even better and trying to find new ways to get an edge against each other instead of the best players being scattered just ROFL stomping EU or NA then finally playing eachother in RO8. Since the koreans would be playing better against eachother and new strategies would develop the bar would increasingly get higher and EU and NA while playing eachother will have more practice in these higher tournaments also doing the same thing
My point is not made well here but if you think deeply about this it makes sense that region locking would make more intense games all around instead of 2 foreigners barely able to compete past RO8 in Regional WCS
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
I really don't understand why people say that. It is so boring watching good people face eachother? Does race or the place you come from really affect the games? Sometimes it introduces new styles, sometimes it causes those who you want to win to struggle. OK, I get that people want their favorites to get far. If they're not as good, I don't see how you can blame someone who kicks their ass just because they are korean.
Getting tired of this crap.
Backing you up
Proleague didn't have europeans or north american. All koreas (with few exceptions). It was the best starcraft we ever watched. I don't know why people complain. idra was good so we saw him in korean teams. Grrr kicked koreans ass. But... if i had to choose between, a boxer played match and a foreigner match... Why on earth would you chose the foreigner ?
You should understand that people are not attracted by the most skilled players. More precisely, they surely want to see good games, but for people under master level a game played by two high level foreigners is informative and entertaining in the same way of a game between two top tier koreans. Instead, what people really want when they see a tournament is to root for someone. But rooting for someone implies some sort of link with that person (nationality, personality, ...). People want to cheer for someone they can feel as "one of us". So it is normal that the majority of foreigner audience want to cheer for foreigners. Maybe on TL this is not evidence because the active posters are, in average, more sensible to good play and so they are more supportive to koreans, but i think that the evidence of the large increase in viewers number when a foreigner reach the last rounds of some important tournament is more than enough to convince you that some sort of region locking is necessary to keep the fanbase interested.
I think WCS EU has had it relatively good with the ratio of fan favourites to Korean talent. So this is really a matter for the WCS NA scene. How to create a solution and opportunity for the NA scene that doesn't constrict the EU one? Can you really make one decision that would further both situations and both scenes?
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
I really don't understand why people say that. It is so boring watching good people face eachother? Does race or the place you come from really affect the games? Sometimes it introduces new styles, sometimes it causes those who you want to win to struggle. OK, I get that people want their favorites to get far. If they're not as good, I don't see how you can blame someone who kicks their ass just because they are korean.
Getting tired of this crap.
Backing you up
Proleague didn't have europeans or north american. All koreas (with few exceptions). It was the best starcraft we ever watched. I don't know why people complain. idra was good so we saw him in korean teams. Grrr kicked koreans ass. But... if i had to choose between, a boxer played match and a foreigner match... Why on earth would you chose the foreigner ?
If the foreigners are as or more skilled, there should be no difference. I don't care if the players are korean or not, as long as they are sympathetic and good players, and it's silly of people to do...
Exactly. You don't watch a bad player because he is a foreigner. You watch good player no matter their nationality. Am i good ?
It's not binary, we can do both. We don't need to smoother up and coming players with a wave of high level Korean pros in every event. But we can have events with the best of the best. We can have the NFL and college football.
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
I really don't understand why people say that. It is so boring watching good people face eachother? Does race or the place you come from really affect the games? Sometimes it introduces new styles, sometimes it causes those who you want to win to struggle. OK, I get that people want their favorites to get far. If they're not as good, I don't see how you can blame someone who kicks their ass just because they are korean.
Getting tired of this crap.
Backing you up
Proleague didn't have europeans or north american. All koreas (with few exceptions). It was the best starcraft we ever watched. I don't know why people complain. idra was good so we saw him in korean teams. Grrr kicked koreans ass. But... if i had to choose between, a boxer played match and a foreigner match... Why on earth would you chose the foreigner ?
This has been a three year old debate on TL, and I'm tired of it being reduced to little more than "True fans" versus "Racists."
Not everyone on TL are magical Starcraft 2 fans who want only the best games played. Sometimes we want to root for our hometown hero - it's how shitty football (both American and soccer) teams still have fans. How is this confusing?
You guys sound like we're aliens coming in and trying to communicate some strange ritual sacrifice to you. We want to see our scene actually produce a champion to go to the regional finals - it gives us hope, no matter how ill-guided, that we aren't little more than a bank for Koreans to come by and withdraw some extra tournament winnings.
Simply saying "get better" without any actual way for the NA pros to get better is the height of ignorance. How can they get better if the Koreans don't even have to practice on the NA server? Don't even have to commit to staying in America until the last weekend of the damn tourney?
Everything about the WCS system was structured in a way that fed what little was left of the NA pros to the wolves. I'm not even saying that Koreans shouldn't be able to play in WCS America - I'm saying that if Blizzard wants to open up the only real source of potential competition for NA pros to outside dominance, then it should build safeguards into the system that gives them a fighting chance to get better.
Right now it's "ride in, play a few games, get paid, and leave." There is no where in that list of steps that actually gives NA pros a source of competition that they can get better with, so they've floundered. And if wanting Blizzard to fix their system so that they CAN get better makes me a racist, then sure. That's exactly what I am.
Thanks for your attention and your interest, first of all. Some opinions of mine in order of importance. 1 I'd like to express once more the necessity to support lesser events, since they are the ones who will help the continuity of the sc2 scene. Every good player started from the bottom, the future Naniwas and Stephanos need support. WCS may create storylines, smaller events create a player base: since every player soon or later retires (Stephano/MKP/Idra/whoever brought a ton of viewers by his own presence), this feels like a fundamental issue.
2 Unlike other users I believe that team should be supported, but if you happened to thinking about giving more points to the players whose team perform well I think that is wrong since some players aren't on a strong team while being sick good. Having however the teams whose players perform well in wcs be rewarded in some way seems great.
3 I have a minor issue about something about WCS points, namely Revival being invited to IEM New York as a replacement, skipping the qualifiers, losing all but one match and be rewarded with 150 wcs points that made him currently jump on the list of guys who will attend Blizzcon. However I'm not sure that you are involved in this, nor I'm blaming you in any sort of way. It's just a reminder that something so rare and unpleaseant could happen again, so watch out if you can ^^
4 I also think that LAN support could be implemented: if you really hate the idea of me playing with my cousin with two regular copies of the game without having to be on internet I can still fake understanding, but imagine someone disconnecting at Blizzcon live or during WCS events.
On October 15 2013 22:20 -Celestial- wrote: To steal a phrase: "Blizzard, GSLs redde!" :-\
Removing the season finals is probably a good idea. As is cutting the number of WCSs. I don't know about everyone else but this year its felt like I've been unable to move for WCS and frankly I'd partly given up on trying to follow it all.
And to make it worse it came at the expense of "THE" premier tournament in GSL Code S which was reduced to hardly anything this year and was mixed in a mish-mash with the OSL for WCS Korea. I just want Code S properly back; WCS doesn't feel as elite as Code S was. Especially given that a lot of players just dispersed to other regions.
I'd love for GOM to tell me otherwise, but I think it's a false assumption that the reduced role of the GSL is somehow to be blamed on Blizzard or WCS. The GSL has been scaled back repeatedly each year since SC2's release because SC2 has not been as popular in Korea as many expected. Since 2010, prize pools have been consistently shrinking even through the number of tournaments per year has been steadily decreasing. You only have to look at what kind of companies are sponsoring GSLs... we went from multinational corporations like Intel and Pepsi at the start to little-known Korean-only businesses like MangoSix and Jogunshop recently.
At least some people seem to to assume, maybe unconsciously, that just because Blizzard is getting more involved in SC2 directly in recent years, and the role of the GSL has decreased, that the former is somehow causing the latter, and that the way to restore the GSL to its 2010-2011 glory (a new tournament almost every month, etc) is to kill WCS as much as possible, but frankly this seems unlikely. People should be thanking Blizzard for their involvement and thinking of constructive ways to improve the WCS system.
My suggestion to Blizzard is to create a secondary (unrelated to WCS) tournament located IN Korea, for easy access to strong Korean players who are currently not able to show themselves because getting into WCS Premier League in Korea is so cutthroat. Run it however you want--it doesn't have to be a full "league" like WCS. Maybe it can be based on a system similar to IEM's. The key is to structure it so that it has a high turnover, so that we don't just end up seeing WCS Premier League players playing in two tournaments. Make sure that it has decent English-language production values so that non-Koreans could follow. This could decrease the rate at which the Korean scene is contracting by giving more players more opportunities to make a name for themselves and win prizes.
EDIT: On an unrelated note, I think it's weird that some people are complaining that WCS 2013 is somehow "hard to follow" unless you refer to Liquipedia (or just the official WCS site) to check status. I am unaware of any major sport league that a person can easily follow without ever making reference to some sort of reference that shows standings, schedules, rosters, etc, so I'm not sure what the complaint is. Aside from some minor differences like slightly different Challenger League format, all the WCS leagues are just like the GSL!
If you are going to make there only 3 seasons you need to increase the prizepool by like 50% for each tournament to make it worthwhile. Money increase is key. I don't like the idea of region locking for nationals either it is just plain bad.
First of all, I'd like to explicitly state that I was really happy with the Q&A. For me, WCS2014 went from "Anything could happen" to "These are the decisions that have been made and these are not finalized". I now know what we don't know and what we do know. I really appreciate it. Also, a Blizz representative discussing with us in the thread, makes me all happy and giddy inside You ask for our feedback, so here's mine (I'm sorry for the length; I'm not too good at being concise)
I would like to take a slightly different point of view for the discussion. Looking back at the start of 2013, it seems that the purpose of WCS EU/AM was to create a GSL-style league in Europe and America. Also, the purpose of WCS was to have a truly global league with a world champion at the end. However, at some point, those two were mixed up more than they needed to be, I think.
WCS EU/AM was great for EU and AM because it did indeed introduce a GSL-like league to the two regions. I would consider that a huge success and I certainly want to see that grow. However, for Korea, it became kind of a weird move. Korea already had a GSL, so they didn't need a GSL-like system implemented once more with WCS and the result became this weird WCS/GSL/OSL entanglement that didn't really work out, in my opinion. I think the uniqueness of the regions got overridden by the desire to have a uniform system all across the globe, where the same uniform system was not the best solution for every region. Based on that, I would like to propose that the WCS system doesn't have to be exactly the same in all regions. Instead of a top-down solution where Blizzard enforces a set system on the tournament organizers, I think it would be better with a bottom-up solution where Blizzard encourages what is already there or adds to it, like with the GSL-style WCS EU/AM, which was a successful addition to a scene which used to have only week-end LANs. If it ain't broke...
For Korea, I'd like to see less obvious involvement of Blizz in the GSL and OSL themselves. Instead of having the weird WCS/GSL/OSL entanglement, I think the leagues could exist on their own and then feed into WCS in a way that does not override the GSL and OSL brands, as it were. So the storyline is not "Player X became the WCS champion through GSL or OSL" but instead "Now, the champions from GSL and OSL will meet and compete for the title of WCS Champion". This meeting of GSL and OSL finals could be either a regional KR final or maybe they wouldn't actually meet until the World Finals.
(Also, I say "less obvious involvement" because it's pretty obvious that GOM and OGN are at their throats and that we, the public, can never know how much influence Blizzard has had over that, nor can we know how much influence Blizz will need to continue to exert. But just make it look like they're friends and let them do their thing, tournament-wise, and we'll all be happy even though we don't appreciate how muddy the relations might be. But I digress)
For Europe and America, Blizzard could continue or even perhaps step up their WCS production with ESL and NASL. Increasing production value, making it easier for players to visit/live by the studios etc. I don't know the details of how that actually works today, so I'm not going to make any detailed suggestions, but building up WCS EU/AM as the "GSL's of Europe and America" is the way to go, I think.
As for the the World Finals, I think it might be beneficial with several different routes to it; one route is by becoming a champion of a long-going tournament and another is to have gained enough points. The intuitions are there and in 2013 they were ensured by the spread of points. Having a massive amount of points for the finalists ensured that they were going to Blizzcon. However, it comes down to a very delicate act of balancing: Are we absolutely sure that the points are spread among all the different tournaments in order to ensure that the champions of those tournaments go to Blizzcon while a player who wins or places high in those and those tournaments also get a chance etc. It does work to a certain degree, but why not ensure it directly? One road to the WCS Finals is becoming a Champion, another is getting enough points. I think it could work.
Speaking of different roads to the Finals, I was surprised to see that Copa América was not included in the WCS ecosystem. I was so sure that you were trying to prepare it for inclusion for 2014. However, what about having a "back entrance" into the Finals for those regions that do not have a dedicated WCS region, or perhaps even for prestigious tournaments that are clearly outside the existing WCS ecosystem? So one or two of the slots for the Finals are dedicated to "up-and-coming" regions. Perhaps there could be a special tournament for the champions of Copa América, Vengeance Cup, TeSL, Chinese Leagues etc, from which the winner(s) go on to the WCS Finals. It would serve two goals: 1) Those cups, regions and scenes would not feel left out and the WCS would feel truly global again, and 2) it would encourage grassroots movements to keep up the quality of their tournaments or even encourage new tournaments to start up, knowing that if they become prestigious, they might become a part of WCS in a small way. I think it's great that Blizzard supports grassroots movements the way they do and hope that they will continue to do it.
Then to address the point you've surely been thinking about while reading this post: Streamlining. This doesn't seem very streamlined at all, while, on the other hand, one set of simple WCS points seems much more streamlined. However, I'd like to argue that my proposed system can indeed seem more streamlined than the points system of today. The system I propose has many roads to the Finals while the system of WCS2013 has (to continue the metaphor) one huge road with lots of lanes. You can't simply watch your specific player battling it out in his lane, you have to keep an eye on all the lanes. Does Player X go to Blizzcon? Well, that depends on what Player Y does in tournament I, player Z does in tournament J and player P does in tournament K. There is no way to follow simply a small part of the scene. It's all or nothing. With the system I propose, it's much easier to know for sure what's going on. Did player X win GSL? Yes, then he's going to Blizzcon. It's streamlined. Moreover, since another path to the Finals is through points, we will still get the "NaNiwa effect of IEM". Perhaps NaNiwa didn't win WCS EU 2014. Perhaps his only hope is to take another road to the Finals, and that road is winning IEM in 2014. It's still the same excitement and opportunities. The only change is that there are more roads to the Finals and there's a greater freedom in deciding who will get to go there because the points are not the end-all be-all of who gets to go. With that freedom, Blizz can ensure that the WCS Finals 2014 won't be another almost All-Korean tournament.
So there are 5 roads to the WCS Finals: 1) WCS Korea: Winning GSL or OSL 2) WCS Europe: Winning the tournament called WCS Europe 3) WCS America: Winning the tournament called WCS America 4) Gaining enough WCS points through competing in LANs like DreamHack, IEM etc. (or possibly also gaining WCS points within GSL/OSL/WCS EU/AM) 5) Competing in established prestigious region-specific tournaments; the "back entrance"
These are the competitors at the WCS Finals: 1) GSL Champion 2) Other top placing GSL player (perhaps season 2 winner or 2nd place?) 3) OSL Champion 4) Other top placing OSL player (perhaps season 2 winner or 2nd place?) 5) WCS EU Champion 6) Champion of prestigious region-locked European tournament? (Guaranteed non-Korean) 7) WCS AM Champion 8) Champion of prestigious region-locked American tournament? (Guaranteed non-Korean) 9) #1 ranked WCS Points 10) #2 ranked WCS Points 11) #3 ranked WCS Points 12) #4 ranked WCS Points 13) #5 ranked WCS Points 14) #6 ranked WCS Points 15) TeSL Champion (Guaranteed non-Korean) 16) Champion of the tournament between the winners of Copa América, Vengeance Cup, other regional cups etc. (Guaranteed non-Korean)
It's not perfect (like what to do to make the first season og GSL important in respect to the Finals), but a lot of problems could be solved through adjustment of player numbers for the Finals or adjustments for which slots go to what or possibly by giving WCS points within GSL/OSL/WCS EU/WCS AM as well. Perhaps it's possible for a guy who's placed 3rd in all three (or more) seasons of GSL to have enough points to go to the Finals. I don't have all the details thought out, but those are my thoughts at least. Also, by leaving the options open, one could, for instance, include prestigious tournaments that shape up during the next year. Like for instance if a US/Canada nationals-only cup starts up in February and becomes super-awesome by July, one could grant its winner a slot for the finals because there's a way around the WCS points.
Those are my two cents. Hope they contribute in some way (And sorry, again, for the length)
Oh wow, what a disappointing article. Had really hoped for more.
And so few actual infos on such a long article, it's ridiculous.
For those that search for a TL;Dr: Nothing big will change, only very small changes, maybe to challenger etc., but Blizz does not know which ones yet.
Again, so disappointing. WCS ruining the Korean and American SC2 scene... This monopoly has the potential to kill SC2, see the last year. Hope Blizzard rethinks this again. I really fear for my beloved Starcraft.
I appreciate the write-up but feel there was little to know substance in the responses from Blizz. I feel like there's an all around lack of sense of urgency on their part when, based on how SC2 is trending against the competition, there should be tremendous urgency.
On October 15 2013 23:07 Caladan wrote: Oh wow, what a disappointing article. Had really hoped for more.
And so few actual infos on such a long article, it's ridiculous.
For those that search for a TL;Dr: Nothing big will change, only very small changes, maybe to challenger etc., but Blizz does not know which ones yet.
Again, so disappointing. WCS ruining the Korean and American SC2 scene... This monopoly has the potential to kill SC2, see the last year. Hope Blizzard rethinks this again. I really fear for my beloved Starcraft.
Naz'Gul's post pretty much does breaks it down for you. Stuff is still I the works. Blizzard also posted a bunch of responses in the thread.
Is Blizzard considering extremely drastic changes to the WCS format for 2014? To be specific, a change on the magnitude of what happened between 2012 and 2013?
This is something we’ve considered and discussed at length internally and with our tournament partners. That said, we’re happy with the general direction of WCS and have decided that 2014 is not the year to make drastic changes but instead make improvements to what we currently have established.
Well reading the responses to my posts were kind of sad.
People have different expectation. What i write is what i think. Not what everybody thinks Just my opinion.
I, for one want to see great players and best player. Sure i like some of the underdogs but i can relate that i root for Flash because i relate to him (i'm not korean, i'm bw zerg player) somehow. I should have wrote : "why on earth should I" and not "should you" (bad english is bad).
What i wanted to say is that when BW was only korean people didn't really care of national heroes (because they were none/few). Foreigner wants foreigner is a thing that came with SC2 i feel.
I don't want region lock to be based on country. I want region lock on teams. So Jaedong is EG, he plays in US, MVP is in IM, => Korea. ForGG is in millenium => EU. And i don't want a grand final between those 3. I want a 4year olympic style when there is region lock country. I think that would satisfy a lot of people (but maybe i'm wrong)
I'm an old guy from BW So my heroes are koreans. Even if i'm not. I understand what you mean. It's difficult to argument in this language for me
On October 15 2013 23:19 FFW_Rude wrote: Well reading the responses to my posts were kind of sad.
People have different expectation. What i write is what i think. Not what everybody thinks Just my opinion.
I, for one want to see great players and best player. Sure i like some of the underdogs but i can relate that i root for Flash because i relate to him (i'm not korean, i'm bw zerg player) somehow. I should have wrote : "why on earth should I" and not "should you" (bad english is bad).
What i wanted to say is that when BW was only korean people didn't really care of national heroes (because they were none/few). Foreigner wants foreigner is a thing that came with SC2 i feel.
I don't want region lock to be based on country. I want region lock on teams. So Jaedong is EG, he plays in US, MVP is in IM, => Korea. ForGG is in millenium => EU. And i don't want a grand final between those 3. I want a 4year olympic style when there is region lock country. I think that would satisfy a lot of people (but maybe i'm wrong)
I'm an old guy from BW So my heroes are koreans. Even if i'm not. I understand what you mean. It's difficult to argument in this language for me
Well a lot of people aren't from BW and they don't have that level of attachment. People want to grow their local scene and that takes some rules and restrictions. No one want to see scrubs play in the finals. But we also don't need 16 top Korean players to avoid terrible games.
On October 15 2013 23:19 FFW_Rude wrote: Well reading the responses to my posts were kind of sad.
People have different expectation. What i write is what i think. Not what everybody thinks Just my opinion.
I, for one want to see great players and best player. Sure i like some of the underdogs but i can relate that i root for Flash because i relate to him (i'm not korean, i'm bw zerg player) somehow. I should have wrote : "why on earth should I" and not "should you" (bad english is bad).
What i wanted to say is that when BW was only korean people didn't really care of national heroes (because they were none/few). Foreigner wants foreigner is a thing that came with SC2 i feel.
I don't want region lock to be based on country. I want region lock on teams. So Jaedong is EG, he plays in US, MVP is in IM, => Korea. ForGG is in millenium => EU. And i don't want a grand final between those 3. I want a 4year olympic style when there is region lock country. I think that would satisfy a lot of people (but maybe i'm wrong)
I'm an old guy from BW So my heroes are koreans. Even if i'm not. I understand what you mean. It's difficult to argument in this language for me
Well a lot of people aren't from BW and they don't have that level of attachment. People want to grow their local scene and that takes some rules and restrictions. No one want to see scrubs play in the finals. But we also don't need 16 top Korean players to avoid terrible games.
Yeah i know that. I just fail to see it from time to time So for you team based lock is not enough ?
I think your Idea is a beautiful one FFW_Rude. It would make more sense it would also give players opportunity to switch regions if they join another team which also could create almost a Player trading or draft which is what makes everything more exciting in Football and other events
On October 15 2013 23:30 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think your Idea is a beautiful one FFW_Rude. It would make more sense it would also give players opportunity to switch regions if they join another team which also could create almost a Player trading or draft which is what makes everything more exciting in Football and other events
About the "olympic" thing that i mentionned earlier. it existed (wgt). So they can do it too
On October 15 2013 23:19 FFW_Rude wrote: Well reading the responses to my posts were kind of sad.
People have different expectation. What i write is what i think. Not what everybody thinks Just my opinion.
I, for one want to see great players and best player. Sure i like some of the underdogs but i can relate that i root for Flash because i relate to him (i'm not korean, i'm bw zerg player) somehow. I should have wrote : "why on earth should I" and not "should you" (bad english is bad).
What i wanted to say is that when BW was only korean people didn't really care of national heroes (because they were none/few). Foreigner wants foreigner is a thing that came with SC2 i feel.
I don't want region lock to be based on country. I want region lock on teams. So Jaedong is EG, he plays in US, MVP is in IM, => Korea. ForGG is in millenium => EU. And i don't want a grand final between those 3. I want a 4year olympic style when there is region lock country. I think that would satisfy a lot of people (but maybe i'm wrong)
I'm an old guy from BW So my heroes are koreans. Even if i'm not. I understand what you mean. It's difficult to argument in this language for me
Well a lot of people aren't from BW and they don't have that level of attachment. People want to grow their local scene and that takes some rules and restrictions. No one want to see scrubs play in the finals. But we also don't need 16 top Korean players to avoid terrible games.
Yeah i know that. I just fail to see it from time to time So for you team based lock is not enough ?
I am for any rule that keeps games interesting and gives new players a chance to shine. No rule is going to be perfect, but the current system has some real flaws. It is going to be a learning experience for everyone, and we should be open to the idea that no one knows the best way to do it. But that should stop people from trying and talking about it.
On October 15 2013 23:19 FFW_Rude wrote: Well reading the responses to my posts were kind of sad.
People have different expectation. What i write is what i think. Not what everybody thinks Just my opinion.
I, for one want to see great players and best player. Sure i like some of the underdogs but i can relate that i root for Flash because i relate to him (i'm not korean, i'm bw zerg player) somehow. I should have wrote : "why on earth should I" and not "should you" (bad english is bad).
What i wanted to say is that when BW was only korean people didn't really care of national heroes (because they were none/few). Foreigner wants foreigner is a thing that came with SC2 i feel.
I don't want region lock to be based on country. I want region lock on teams. So Jaedong is EG, he plays in US, MVP is in IM, => Korea. ForGG is in millenium => EU. And i don't want a grand final between those 3. I want a 4year olympic style when there is region lock country. I think that would satisfy a lot of people (but maybe i'm wrong)
I'm an old guy from BW So my heroes are koreans. Even if i'm not. I understand what you mean. It's difficult to argument in this language for me
Well a lot of people aren't from BW and they don't have that level of attachment. People want to grow their local scene and that takes some rules and restrictions. No one want to see scrubs play in the finals. But we also don't need 16 top Korean players to avoid terrible games.
Yeah i know that. I just fail to see it from time to time So for you team based lock is not enough ?
I am for any rule that keeps games interesting and gives new players a chance to shine. No rule is going to be perfect, but the current system has some real flaws. It is going to be a learning experience for everyone, and we should be open to the idea that no one knows the best way to do it. But that should stop people from trying and talking about it.
What you said here is really true. We'll have to see what they can come up with.
On October 15 2013 23:19 FFW_Rude wrote: Well reading the responses to my posts were kind of sad.
People have different expectation. What i write is what i think. Not what everybody thinks Just my opinion.
I, for one want to see great players and best player. Sure i like some of the underdogs but i can relate that i root for Flash because i relate to him (i'm not korean, i'm bw zerg player) somehow. I should have wrote : "why on earth should I" and not "should you" (bad english is bad).
What i wanted to say is that when BW was only korean people didn't really care of national heroes (because they were none/few). Foreigner wants foreigner is a thing that came with SC2 i feel.
I don't want region lock to be based on country. I want region lock on teams. So Jaedong is EG, he plays in US, MVP is in IM, => Korea. ForGG is in millenium => EU. And i don't want a grand final between those 3. I want a 4year olympic style when there is region lock country. I think that would satisfy a lot of people (but maybe i'm wrong)
I'm an old guy from BW So my heroes are koreans. Even if i'm not. I understand what you mean. It's difficult to argument in this language for me
Well a lot of people aren't from BW and they don't have that level of attachment. People want to grow their local scene and that takes some rules and restrictions. No one want to see scrubs play in the finals. But we also don't need 16 top Korean players to avoid terrible games.
I have proved many times before that you don't need to go to such lengths to improve a locale scene and even then the focus is purely on the players because your viewership isn't going to drastically improve (in other words, it will be marginal) A lot of you guys have tunnel vision when it comes to such things as region locking or other format changes (for instance extended series). You see what other people are doing and you don't look at the big picture, which is problematic.
Here is what we know: the major Lans still get the biggest draws. You don't need three qualifiers going on during the same day. Give people one focal point (you can still have rebroadcasts/VODs). Have one roof where you will see ALL players. What we're talking about is a face lift rather than a complete makeover. Technically we already have a governing body although it's informal one. Blizzard could be creating more jobs but they don't realize it yet. If it's a complete makeover you want then I would turn every stone including normalizing team jerseys because let's face it. A lot of teams need help in this area and if you really want to start a movement well every major sport has the proper look. I'd make a few modifications like having the players country flag on their sleeves and this way the Pro Teams who do get accepted into the League have an official uniform to tell everyone else, "We're a SC2 League Team." We call it eye candy and for the sporadic viewer so they can identify National players right away. "Oh boy, he's from Sweden. That's where I'm from!" We call these unconscious triggers and they're more susceptible to give it ten seconds rather than five. Think Olympics here. Most people don't watch amateur sports, but they more susceptible to watch if it's their countryman and it is the Olympics after all. How many of you would go out of your way to watch a rowing race if it weren't the grandest stage of them all for amateur sport? Not very many. Of course you would have to use other channels as well, but I think you get the illustration.
Yea LOL I always agree with Plansix guy has some sense
I am really anticipating to hear what they will come out with especially because blizzcon comes up soon and they want to announce it before blizzcon so Fingers crossed hopefully it will be something ground breaking
On October 15 2013 22:20 -Celestial- wrote: To steal a phrase: "Blizzard, GSLs redde!" :-\
Removing the season finals is probably a good idea. As is cutting the number of WCSs. I don't know about everyone else but this year its felt like I've been unable to move for WCS and frankly I'd partly given up on trying to follow it all.
And to make it worse it came at the expense of "THE" premier tournament in GSL Code S which was reduced to hardly anything this year and was mixed in a mish-mash with the OSL for WCS Korea. I just want Code S properly back; WCS doesn't feel as elite as Code S was. Especially given that a lot of players just dispersed to other regions.
I'd love for GOM to tell me otherwise, but I think it's a false assumption that the reduced role of the GSL is somehow to be blamed on Blizzard or WCS. The GSL has been scaled back repeatedly each year since SC2's release because SC2 has not been as popular in Korea as many expected. Since 2010, prize pools have been consistently shrinking even through the number of tournaments per year has been steadily decreasing. You only have to look at what kind of companies are sponsoring GSLs... we went from multinational corporations like Intel and Pepsi at the start to little-known Korean-only businesses like MangoSix and Jogunshop recently.
At least some people seem to to assume, maybe unconsciously, that just because Blizzard is getting more involved in SC2 directly in recent years, and the role of the GSL has decreased, that the former is somehow causing the latter, and that the way to restore the GSL to its 2010-2011 glory (a new tournament almost every month, etc) is to kill WCS as much as possible, but frankly this seems unlikely. People should be thanking Blizzard for their involvement and thinking of constructive ways to improve the WCS system.
My suggestion to Blizzard is to create a secondary (unrelated to WCS) tournament located IN Korea, for easy access to strong Korean players who are currently not able to show themselves because getting into WCS Premier League in Korea is so cutthroat. Run it however you want--it doesn't have to be a full "league" like WCS. Maybe it can be based on a system similar to IEM's. The key is to structure it so that it has a high turnover, so that we don't just end up seeing WCS Premier League players playing in two tournaments. Make sure that it has decent English-language production values so that non-Koreans could follow. This could decrease the rate at which the Korean scene is contracting by giving more players more opportunities to make a name for themselves and win prizes.
EDIT: On an unrelated note, I think it's weird that some people are complaining that WCS 2013 is somehow "hard to follow" unless you refer to Liquipedia (or just the official WCS site) to check status. I am unaware of any major sport league that a person can easily follow without ever making reference to some sort of reference that shows standings, schedules, rosters, etc, so I'm not sure what the complaint is. Aside from some minor differences like slightly different Challenger League format, all the WCS leagues are just like the GSL!
yeah great points. A lot of people think if gsl/osl would still exist it would magically "save" korea, but the truth is there are no real sponsors for these tournaments. If anything Blizzard is the only reason we have GSL/OSL (as WCS korea, but still..) now. There is just no money in korea for sc2, its just way too small there
The thing is it wouldn't Viper and that is a problem onto itself. Like I said before the Korean scene is already on Life Support.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
On October 15 2013 19:45 looknohands119 wrote: Kim,
I think that even in an individual based eSport like Starcraft has largely become, there's no reason why the team aspect can't be or shouldn't be highly emphasized. Its a big part of what makes the game and scene understandable, palatable, and attractive to the uninitiated. (See Xeris's awesome analysis on the reasons for the lack of stability and growth in Starcraft eSports and Carmac's analysis of how to bring stability and growth back to the scene.) A very compelling way of region locking WCS would be to require each team to choose a region and all of their players would have to compete in that region for the year. If the premier league was offline, then doing so would encourage the development of each regional scene, draw Korean pro-gamers to other regions which would help to transplant the Korean pro-gaming system of practice and management, and would allow the system to both promote and leverage teams rather than only individual personalities which would bring a lot more stability to the scene.
Then, you could prioritize creating professional studio level production and funding housing for teams which would help professionalize the scene, decrease the barrier of entry for new teams, reward those teams that are successful not only with monetary help but also with a way to incentivize players to join them, and lay the groundwork for a bigger, more comprehensive future eSports system. You would obviously then need to be contacting teams rather than individual players about WCS things but really, that's the way it should be anyway. Teams own the rights to their players and act as their promoters/agents/representation.
Most importantly, remember that big and fundamental changes to the way that Blizzard approaches eSports will probably be necessary to make something like WCS truly successful. Nobody, and I mean nobody gets it right on the first try. What makes companies successful in this crazy internet based world will never be their rate of success for individual attempts at reaching their goal(s) but rather their ability to quickly and accurately change the direction of their efforts or respond to the needs of their community to make things better. It's not about strength but about agility.
On the topic of funding teams. Remember what I said earlier about tunnel vision and not copying Riot (not to say they don't do some good things, but there is a lot of BAD things as well). Their system is far from ideal. I say this because I overheard help funding team houses. The teams have to be able to stand by themselves, but that doesn't mean we cannot have a support system and that's why I would like teams to get accredited & evaluated regularly so professionals looking to transition know where to look. We're not talking about qualifiers for a team league. We're talking about accrediting teams that have the proper resources to facilitate six to eight players. There's a criteria that has to be followed (I've used this analogy before but I'll say it again for those who missed it... think the BBB).
See what I underlined? MLG already understood that point. If I were to prioritize something especially under my format it would be to help support player travel. Second thing would be to support amateur and grassroots play. Never skip out on other regions.
So basically its "we want to make more offline events for WCS but we can't do it atm" again. Because the tournament organizers are okay with the current situation and don't want to spend more I expect this situation will never change. Guaranteed slots for residents of a region are a start but unless they realy limit the slots of "outsiders" it will just delay the problem, instead of (for example) 4 koreans qualifying, we get 2 or 3, the rest next season. With minor changes there will no increase in viewers, SC2 will continue to decline until LotV gives it a little boost again.
PS: If a players drops in just for the offline finals and talks for five minutes in a post match interview thats not what I would say is "getting to know him better" in a specific region. Thats also totally different from the foreigners who trained in korea or tried to qualify / played in GSL.
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
I really don't understand why people say that. It is so boring watching good people face eachother? Does race or the place you come from really affect the games? Sometimes it introduces new styles, sometimes it causes those who you want to win to struggle. OK, I get that people want their favorites to get far. If they're not as good, I don't see how you can blame someone who kicks their ass just because they are korean.
Getting tired of this crap.
Backing you up
Proleague didn't have europeans or north american. All koreas (with few exceptions). It was the best starcraft we ever watched. I don't know why people complain. idra was good so we saw him in korean teams. Grrr kicked koreans ass. But... if i had to choose between, a boxer played match and a foreigner match... Why on earth would you chose the foreigner ?
This has been a three year old debate on TL, and I'm tired of it being reduced to little more than "True fans" versus "Racists."
Not everyone on TL are magical Starcraft 2 fans who want only the best games played. Sometimes we want to root for our hometown hero - it's how shitty football (both American and soccer) teams still have fans. How is this confusing?
You guys sound like we're aliens coming in and trying to communicate some strange ritual sacrifice to you. We want to see our scene actually produce a champion to go to the regional finals - it gives us hope, no matter how ill-guided, that we aren't little more than a bank for Koreans to come by and withdraw some extra tournament winnings.
Simply saying "get better" without any actual way for the NA pros to get better is the height of ignorance. How can they get better if the Koreans don't even have to practice on the NA server? Don't even have to commit to staying in America until the last weekend of the damn tourney?
Everything about the WCS system was structured in a way that fed what little was left of the NA pros to the wolves. I'm not even saying that Koreans shouldn't be able to play in WCS America - I'm saying that if Blizzard wants to open up the only real source of potential competition for NA pros to outside dominance, then it should build safeguards into the system that gives them a fighting chance to get better.
Right now it's "ride in, play a few games, get paid, and leave." There is no where in that list of steps that actually gives NA pros a source of competition that they can get better with, so they've floundered. And if wanting Blizzard to fix their system so that they CAN get better makes me a racist, then sure. That's exactly what I am.
Exactly this. This whole bullshit "If you don't want to watch Koreans play you're clearly racist" mentality is so extremely insulting.
The majority of things that they're saying they're going to do are going to be huge. I think we'll see a few Koreans move to North America and Europe, and we'll see more foreigners in bigger venues on well-produced tournaments. If there was a way for blizzard to incentivize teams to have team-houses or recruit Koreans onto their teams I think that would probably be the best thing. I don't think the Korean scene has the support for Starcraft 2 right now, losing teams and players is painful, but I don't think it means a death of the game, I think it means an expansion and spreading out of the talent, and I feel that will end up being for the best.
Remember, we're talking about increasing viewership here, not skill level. If you want to do that, you need to create a spectacle that combines all of the best parts of a sporting event, and you need to recognize that viewership will not be created on the backs of the Koreans.
Seeing how most people want region lock, as much as I don't like the idea myself I think Blizzard should listen to the community. However if regions get locked, Korea should get noticeably! bigger price pool to make ''GSL'' once again the most prestigious tournament and slots for challenger league in Korea should be greatly increased for the sustainability of the Korean scene.
On October 15 2013 22:13 purgerinho wrote: changes are very good, without season finals there will be more prize money in finals, for sure and i hope there will be more tournaments that will fill the gap..
and i hope there will be some kind of region lock because it is so boring to watch wcs eu/na with 14/16 koreans in ro16
I really don't understand why people say that. It is so boring watching good people face eachother? Does race or the place you come from really affect the games? Sometimes it introduces new styles, sometimes it causes those who you want to win to struggle. OK, I get that people want their favorites to get far. If they're not as good, I don't see how you can blame someone who kicks their ass just because they are korean.
Getting tired of this crap.
Backing you up
Proleague didn't have europeans or north american. All koreas (with few exceptions). It was the best starcraft we ever watched. I don't know why people complain. idra was good so we saw him in korean teams. Grrr kicked koreans ass. But... if i had to choose between, a boxer played match and a foreigner match... Why on earth would you chose the foreigner ?
This has been a three year old debate on TL, and I'm tired of it being reduced to little more than "True fans" versus "Racists."
Not everyone on TL are magical Starcraft 2 fans who want only the best games played. Sometimes we want to root for our hometown hero - it's how shitty football (both American and soccer) teams still have fans. How is this confusing?
You guys sound like we're aliens coming in and trying to communicate some strange ritual sacrifice to you. We want to see our scene actually produce a champion to go to the regional finals - it gives us hope, no matter how ill-guided, that we aren't little more than a bank for Koreans to come by and withdraw some extra tournament winnings.
Simply saying "get better" without any actual way for the NA pros to get better is the height of ignorance. How can they get better if the Koreans don't even have to practice on the NA server? Don't even have to commit to staying in America until the last weekend of the damn tourney?
Everything about the WCS system was structured in a way that fed what little was left of the NA pros to the wolves. I'm not even saying that Koreans shouldn't be able to play in WCS America - I'm saying that if Blizzard wants to open up the only real source of potential competition for NA pros to outside dominance, then it should build safeguards into the system that gives them a fighting chance to get better.
Right now it's "ride in, play a few games, get paid, and leave." There is no where in that list of steps that actually gives NA pros a source of competition that they can get better with, so they've floundered. And if wanting Blizzard to fix their system so that they CAN get better makes me a racist, then sure. That's exactly what I am.
Exactly this. This whole bullshit "If you don't want to watch Koreans play you're clearly racist" mentality is so extremely insulting.
The majority of things that they're saying they're going to do are going to be huge. I think we'll see a few Koreans move to North America and Europe, and we'll see more foreigners in bigger venues on well-produced tournaments. If there was a way for blizzard to incentivize teams to have team-houses or recruit Koreans onto their teams I think that would probably be the best thing. I don't think the Korean scene has the support for Starcraft 2 right now, losing teams and players is painful, but I don't think it means a death of the game, I think it means an expansion and spreading out of the talent, and I feel that will end up being for the best.
Remember, we're talking about increasing viewership here, not skill level. If you want to do that, you need to create a spectacle that combines all of the best parts of a sporting event, and you need to recognize that viewership will not be created on the backs of the Koreans.
I never accused someone of racism. What are you talking about
It's their way of putting words in your mouth. It's a common trend. -_-
On October 16 2013 00:05 edlover420 wrote: Seeing how most people want region lock, as much as I don't like the idea myself I think Blizzard should listen to the community. However if regions get locked, Korea should get noticeably! bigger price pool to make ''GSL'' once again the most prestigious tournament and slots for challenger league in Korea should be greatly increased for the sustainability of the Korean scene.
GSL and OSL should stand on their own. WCS should be separate. Give some reason for the Koreans to want to stay in Korea. Otherwise, there won't be much left there.
Also, Kim if you really want other regions to improve (pretty sure you haven't seen all my posts with regards to this so I think it's worth repeating) my answer would be to give these players more proverbial kicks at the can. This is one thing you sort of got with the idea of allowing players to pick which qualifiers they would compete in. I understood your team wanted them to reside there. If you want big gains in growth and development you pit those players against high level competition on a more regular basis. This is why I don't like the idea of region locks because it stunts their potential. Let me use an example and I think xPeke said it best. To paraphrase C9 could be one of the top five teams in the world if only they competed against other regions. The truth is we never really got to see this teams full potential because of a stupid format where they got directly seeded into the quarterfinals and received an early exit by the hand of fnatic. To paraphrase Meteos: NA LCS is trash; no one here plays Kassadin; no one here uses teleport. It's a very thin line. How do you change this? Make sure all players compete against one another more regularly. We're not talking about meeting them several times a year. No sir. I say increase the chances these players meet one another ten fold. Heck, if you guys really want to implement the Ladder in all this. Maybe there should be a Ladder Division where you can meet any player from any country (yeah we know there is lag between EU and KOREA but there should be something). The truth is you make the most noticeable gains when you are facing people who are better than you. We don't want players to develop bad habits. C9 and Fnatic weren't mentally prepared for one another. Sure you can discuss their strategies and try to prepare, but at the end of the day you never know until you actually play. At least we get this somewhat in the Dota2 scene at least between EU and NA. It's a little more global but the China scene and Korean scene which is a little more isolated. Hooray for TL in Korea, yay!
On October 15 2013 23:19 FFW_Rude wrote: Well reading the responses to my posts were kind of sad.
People have different expectation. What i write is what i think. Not what everybody thinks Just my opinion.
I, for one want to see great players and best player. Sure i like some of the underdogs but i can relate that i root for Flash because i relate to him (i'm not korean, i'm bw zerg player) somehow. I should have wrote : "why on earth should I" and not "should you" (bad english is bad).
What i wanted to say is that when BW was only korean people didn't really care of national heroes (because they were none/few). Foreigner wants foreigner is a thing that came with SC2 i feel.
I don't want region lock to be based on country. I want region lock on teams. So Jaedong is EG, he plays in US, MVP is in IM, => Korea. ForGG is in millenium => EU. And i don't want a grand final between those 3. I want a 4year olympic style when there is region lock country. I think that would satisfy a lot of people (but maybe i'm wrong)
I'm an old guy from BW So my heroes are koreans. Even if i'm not. I understand what you mean. It's difficult to argument in this language for me
I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the current TSL is foreigner only, and, if my memories were right, so were the TSL previously.
On October 16 2013 00:05 edlover420 wrote: Seeing how most people want region lock, as much as I don't like the idea myself I think Blizzard should listen to the community. However if regions get locked, Korea should get noticeably! bigger price pool to make ''GSL'' once again the most prestigious tournament and slots for challenger league in Korea should be greatly increased for the sustainability of the Korean scene.
GSL and OSL should stand on their own. WCS should be separate. Give some reason for the Koreans to want to stay in Korea. Otherwise, there won't be much left there.
The racism line was broken out several times during the course of this thread. Never by FFW_Rude, though. But it is still a shitty, half assed argument people throw around to avoid making real arguments.
When we launched WCS 2013, our main goal was to create a global system that was capable of identifying the undisputed, best StarCraft II player on the planet
well this is just lie. You don't do things that cost lots of money to give people a champion, a hero, out of sheer curiosity. You do it for more money. I'm ok with all that but please be honest Blizzard and do not treat us dumb, thanks.
When we launched WCS 2013, our main goal was to create a global system that was capable of identifying the undisputed, best StarCraft II player on the planet
well this is just lie. You don't do things that cost lots of money to give people a champion, a hero, out of sheer curiosity. You do it for more money. I'm ok with all that but please be honest Blizzard and do not treat us dumb, thanks.
They can do both you know. The NFL can be all about making the best games possible and making mad money. It's not binary.
On October 15 2013 23:19 FFW_Rude wrote: Well reading the responses to my posts were kind of sad.
People have different expectation. What i write is what i think. Not what everybody thinks Just my opinion.
I, for one want to see great players and best player. Sure i like some of the underdogs but i can relate that i root for Flash because i relate to him (i'm not korean, i'm bw zerg player) somehow. I should have wrote : "why on earth should I" and not "should you" (bad english is bad).
What i wanted to say is that when BW was only korean people didn't really care of national heroes (because they were none/few). Foreigner wants foreigner is a thing that came with SC2 i feel.
I don't want region lock to be based on country. I want region lock on teams. So Jaedong is EG, he plays in US, MVP is in IM, => Korea. ForGG is in millenium => EU. And i don't want a grand final between those 3. I want a 4year olympic style when there is region lock country. I think that would satisfy a lot of people (but maybe i'm wrong)
I'm an old guy from BW So my heroes are koreans. Even if i'm not. I understand what you mean. It's difficult to argument in this language for me
I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the current TSL is foreigner only, and, if my memories were right, so were the TSL previously.
TSL happened 2times in BW. Proleague, MSL,OSL happened much more. but yeah TSL was foreigner only i think you are right
On October 16 2013 00:10 StarStruck wrote: It's their way of putting words in your mouth. It's a common trend. -_-
On October 16 2013 00:05 edlover420 wrote: Seeing how most people want region lock, as much as I don't like the idea myself I think Blizzard should listen to the community. However if regions get locked, Korea should get noticeably! bigger price pool to make ''GSL'' once again the most prestigious tournament and slots for challenger league in Korea should be greatly increased for the sustainability of the Korean scene.
GSL and OSL should stand on their own. WCS should be separate. Give some reason for the Koreans to want to stay in Korea. Otherwise, there won't be much left there.
The racism line was broken out several times during the course of this thread. Never by FFW_Rude, though. But it is still a shitty, half assed argument people throw around to avoid making real arguments.
Thanks for the support I don't even know how you could be a racist gamer...
Ignoring the major reasons why SC2 is doing poorly + thinking WCS is largely a success and only need a few tweeks is a sad statement on Blizzard's understanding of the scene.
Yea in fact what they thought was by making the best games and crowning a true champ that it would Naturally make them more money and have more support for their events....
I don't think anyone that is suggesting region lock is racist against Koreans in fact I think we revere them and their skill and would like to see MORE of their raw talent and showcase their talents against eachother rather than just simply crushing people that aren't as good in foreign tournaments and just taking their talent with them back to korea when they've mopped up the place.
Which is shown by what plansix has said in the past I don't think anyone dislikes the fact Polt lives in USA now and we all support and love him for being here but thats because he STAYS here and betters the scene here just by keeping his talent in the USA and adding to our scene
On October 15 2013 23:19 FFW_Rude wrote: Well reading the responses to my posts were kind of sad.
People have different expectation. What i write is what i think. Not what everybody thinks Just my opinion.
I, for one want to see great players and best player. Sure i like some of the underdogs but i can relate that i root for Flash because i relate to him (i'm not korean, i'm bw zerg player) somehow. I should have wrote : "why on earth should I" and not "should you" (bad english is bad).
What i wanted to say is that when BW was only korean people didn't really care of national heroes (because they were none/few). Foreigner wants foreigner is a thing that came with SC2 i feel.
I don't want region lock to be based on country. I want region lock on teams. So Jaedong is EG, he plays in US, MVP is in IM, => Korea. ForGG is in millenium => EU. And i don't want a grand final between those 3. I want a 4year olympic style when there is region lock country. I think that would satisfy a lot of people (but maybe i'm wrong)
I'm an old guy from BW So my heroes are koreans. Even if i'm not. I understand what you mean. It's difficult to argument in this language for me
I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the current TSL is foreigner only, and, if my memories were right, so were the TSL previously.
Yes they were because Foreigners weren't Pro Gamers. They were amateurs. The KeSPA players had proper certification back then. In other words, you either were handed one of two licenses a year from the managers or you won Courage and got drafted. These licenses were permanent.
The Koreans are too god and the foreigners cant compete. Imagine of 90 of the top 100 tennisplayers were Spanish... omg, good luck promoting that! Discrimination of Koreans is the only way out of it as Blizz is selling games worldwide.
Anyway, I think a tennis-like system would be the best for SC2. Why not make an official "live event ladder" like tennis, eurofootball or chess? Let the points earned more than 2 months ago decay so that people cant rest on previous results, and let wins in the bigger events count more than the smaller ones.
Good news. While there was a lot of PR talk and not that much actual decisions, getting rid of the Season finals and smarter scheduling will do a lot of good for the scene. It's so ridiculous that the season finals immediately overshadow the regional finals (hell, GSL was THE tournament to win, it's a shame how the WCS system diminished its prestige with a) the season finals, b) the brain drain caused by EU and especially NA and c) the stupid sharing between Gom and OGN). I hope they take the money they save by removing the Season finals and going 4->3 seasons and put it to either increase the price pool of the regional WCSes and/or by supporting the weekend tournament organizers.
Gsl used to have the undisputed best player in the world because every gsl was more or less the best 32 players in the world. That's the thing that kept me interested, not 'storylines' honestly what the heck. Wcs has been nothing but a negative impact I'm afraid, it's the reason I don't watch any Starcraft anymore. I can't keep up with 3 tournaments going on at once, the old gsl in Korea was completely fine.
When we launched WCS 2013, our main goal was to create a global system that was capable of identifying the undisputed, best StarCraft II player on the planet
well this is just lie. You don't do things that cost lots of money to give people a champion, a hero, out of sheer curiosity. You do it for more money. I'm ok with all that but please be honest Blizzard and do not treat us dumb, thanks.
They can do both you know. The NFL can be all about making the best games possible and making mad money. It's not binary.
they can do whatever, just don't say it's your prime driving force when it's not.
On October 16 2013 00:38 Slydie wrote: The Koreans are too god and the foreigners cant compete. Imagine of 90 of the top 100 tennisplayers were Spanish... omg, good luck promoting that! Discrimination of Koreans is the only way out of it as Blizz is selling games worldwide.
Anyway, I think a tennis-like system would be the best for SC2. Why not make an official "live event ladder" like tennis, eurofootball or chess? Let the points earned more than 2 months ago decay so that people cant rest on previous results, and let wins in the bigger events count more than the smaller ones.
There are methods to get those players closer to the Koreans though. I rather try to avoid isolating the scenes for several reasons. One of which is it makes better storytelling. It's one thing to have EU versus NA as we saw with C9 versus Fnatic at Worlds (it did get some hype), but there would be a lot more hype for that match if they had developed a rivalry beforehand. More than just which region they hail from. It's more than one dimension. Also, I rather not stunt a player's growth because they were born in the wrong country. That would be bad. Live events are important and guess what. You see all the world's best players at those events and no one is arguing anything different.
When we launched WCS 2013, our main goal was to create a global system that was capable of identifying the undisputed, best StarCraft II player on the planet
well this is just lie. You don't do things that cost lots of money to give people a champion, a hero, out of sheer curiosity. You do it for more money. I'm ok with all that but please be honest Blizzard and do not treat us dumb, thanks.
They can do both you know. The NFL can be all about making the best games possible and making mad money. It's not binary.
they can do whatever, just don't say it's your prime driving force when it's not.
It's total nit picking and pointless to "call them out on it". It's like calling me a lier for saying I go to work because I enjoy my job, and claiming that I really go to work to make money.
Ok well, this interview really answered nothing for me. It just reads like a PR reply from Blizzard to "pacify the community" Sorry. For someone like me who loves starcraft 2 so much, I hope they fix WCS 2014 especially when it comes to schedule and the region locking. gl. edit: also the fact that I miss tournaments which did their own shit and was epic. like GSL. Winning GSL = dream. but now gsl is just another place where you watch players earn points. They need to make each individual tournament mean something to the community. not sure how they are gonna do that but they really really should try.
When we launched WCS 2013, our main goal was to create a global system that was capable of identifying the undisputed, best StarCraft II player on the planet
well this is just lie. You don't do things that cost lots of money to give people a champion, a hero, out of sheer curiosity. You do it for more money. I'm ok with all that but please be honest Blizzard and do not treat us dumb, thanks.
They can do both you know. The NFL can be all about making the best games possible and making mad money. It's not binary.
they can do whatever, just don't say it's your prime driving force when it's not.
It's total nit picking and pointless to "call them out on it". It's like calling me a lier for saying I go to work because I enjoy my job, and claiming that I really go to work to make money.
may be you're right, but as it was written it gave me impression they want us to view Blizzard as fucking esports paladins, which is not quite true.
As long as they invest the money they save by abolishing Global Finals and a 4th season back into each regions regular seasons, I'd be very happy. By increasing the prize pool in a manner where the Challenger League and Ro32/R016 of Premier League provide more sustainability and the top heavy prizes increase only marginally, you give more players a better chance and incentive.
Combine that with a requirement to play and maintain a certain level on the ladder of the region the player is competing in, having the ladder connected with the WCS system and reserving a certain number of slots for the local region players, and you have a pretty decent step forward in the competitive ecosystem of SC2.
I like the direction that WCS is going but I'd love to see more premier korean tournaments- US/EU has IEM, Dreamhack, MLG (?), HSC, etc etc, and I can't remember a single big korean tournament besides WCS. Although koreans do attend these tournaments in EU/NA, they have to fly over and compete- something I don't think is really desirable. Also, this would be a premier tournament, not a league, so it's fair for the koreans that didn't manage to do well the first time around.
we hope this Q&A clears up some of the confusion and gives StarCraft 2 fans better understanding about Blizzard's overall plan and philosophy
This article starts off with a mission...
We are aware of the concern that allowing skilled players from other regions to easily swoop in and take Premier/Challenger spots can be a severe roadblock to the growth of up-and-coming talent within a local region
Okay, so Blizzard is aware of this specific issue
What are their plans and what do they really mean?
A. giving sympathy slots to players who seem to have a shot for WCS prize pool and fame
carving out a portion of player slots dedicated to legal residents that would guarantee players living in a particular region would always have a consistent chance to make it into Challenger League...
B. doing offline tournaments to discourage foreign player's access
we are pushing for more of our broadcast content to happen in a physical studio environment, inevitably pushing players to commit to longer periods of time where they must reside locally
C. telling the world's top players (or lets say Koreans) to take it easy and not bashing on the new comers
encouraging pros to play on their prospective regional ladders and requiring that anyone who wants to qualify in a region be ranked at a certain level on that region’s server
Well, if "these players" make enough money in their own region, then it would be logical that Blizzard's plan might work.
But... here is the problem...
Will the prize pool for WCS 2014 be raised? Will the prize pool for WCS 2014 be more evenly distributed?
This is something we’re discussing, but we haven’t made any decisions because we’re still evaluating other ways or areas we can contribute to the ecosystem outside of the prize pool to better support more players.
So basically, money talks. Funding is a major issue and setback. Without the fresh new cash from Legacy of the Void, I just do not think the current Starcraft II revenue generating system is setup to operate WCS at the scale Blizzard wants it to be. I suggest coming up with a long-term funding plan with the release of LotV instead of another cash-grab-gimmicky-sucker release.
Moving on... to Blizzard's vision and thoughts about WCS being
the tournament above all other tournaments
The most interesting line I saw is this...
this unifying action was necessary for the scene to grow, and Blizzard was in the best position to help pull together all the various entities involved in fostering professional StarCraft II
I have seen, already, Korean pros who are retired or retiring stating the same thing that Blizzard wants to take control of whatever is happening. I am so glad that now the pieces are now beginning to form a clear picture and I can relate. It is hard to keep up with cost of maintaining SC2. And these hyped Korean tournaments are simply just not fullfilling Blizzard's demand for revenue (it is Blizzard's right by the way, according to SC2's license/usage agreement).
Anyway, for anyone who wants to do more SC2 tournaments etc... please be careful... What Blizzard said was this...
We think team leagues are great and we’re supportive of them, but we do not have any plans to incorporate them directly into the WCS system in 2014. However, we do have ideas around how we can make WCS points more meaningful to teams and players by encouraging team spirit and support in WCS.
We think non-WCS tournaments are crucial to the StarCraft II ecosystem, and we do have plans to extend the WCS storyline to more tournaments. In order to do this, we plan to simplify the broadcast schedule for WCS to allow for other organizations to hold major events during the year.
But what they really mean??
Blizzard will support (spiritually) for small tournaments and team leagues AS LONG AS 1. They do not interfere with WCS's schedule 2. These small tourneys and leagues contribute to the storyline of WCS
Anyway...
So Blizzard will host their own tournaments and crown their own champion through WCS. The fundings and profits will now go to and be managed by Blizzard. Hopefully they can use it well enough for a better release ov LofV.
As I said before, some people live to bitch and claim it is all "valid criticism". Personally I wish the poster above luck in dota 2, since they have much lower tolerance for that kind of whining in the TL section of the dota community.
My first line I wrote was actually "GG THX, back to Dota 2..." and then I felt I might want to explain the thoughts before leaving such comment, hence long-ass write-up
I now understand from my point of view what Blizzard's thought process is So from my perspective, they fulfilled their mission with this Q&A
Side note, I just want to play the game I want to play RTS that focus more on 1v1 competitive play than anything else without much attraction to the casual-but-revenue-generating players? I get it, this is how Blizzard wants the game to be, play it or don't... But they do not have plans or have made decision on how they raise prize pool money or fundings right?? I just don't see SC2 being successful without some compromised feature like... Customs map 3v3 bgh with bw units Zero clutter LOL anyone?
On October 16 2013 01:42 Plansix wrote: As I said before, some people live to bitch and claim it is all "valid criticism". Personally I wish the poster above luck in dota 2, since they have much lower tolerance for that kind of whining in the TL section of the dota community.
blizzard is responsible to find money to make the game better i am all about cost control and revenue generating put those 2 together is just efficiency
blizzard can claim their vision and thoughts about wcs to the community, which obviously both you and i are a part of and my opinion, or what you called valid criticism, whatever, is what they wanted so both you and i reacted towards blizzard's call to "contribute"... in a sense
if my response was not clear enough, i will rephrase it
blizzard, sc2 is a good game, but sorry i don't play that now sharing your vision on wcs is appreciated, but no, it is not enough to get me back into the game
what will get me back, are the fun sub-games that i, and many others, will play (for example bgh and zer0 clutter) what i am saying is that we can be a part of contribution, you know? money-wise, to help with your goal on wcs but, i respect that it is not what you want your game to be
my suggestion: You should change the cap for weekends-tournaments: from 25k to 25k-50k prizepool increases about 25k per region per season for NA & EU. WCS Korea 35k.
They should stop overshadow the weekends-tournaments... I guess they want exactly this but they say that this isn't so (what a liar).
On October 15 2013 09:17 Fizzy wrote: Hm, i cant really say i got any wiser from reading this... but i guess that was to be expected.
This will sound increadibly negative, and i apologize for that, but all Kim Phan is saying is "We are going to make changes, we cant announce any changes because we havnt decided what to change... but there will be changes. And we know what changes people in the community are suggesting.. and we are taking them into consideration."
But its good to hear there will be changes atleast.
Hi Fizzy!
I'm sorry you were disappointed. I was trying to say more than what you got out of it. I'll try to summarize what we're definitely doing next year:
Three regions (AM, EU, and KR)
Three seasons instead of four to allow us to spread the schedule out
Doing the above will allow us to simplify the format so that it's easier to follow. We want a more linear approach, meaning the qualifiers would take place first, then challenger, then premier league.
Improve the broadcast schedule so that it's more predictable. This would mean having a set schedule for the days each of the WCS regions would broadcast, allowing you to better plan your schedule for following WCS.
Removing season finals in their current form. We want there the be more spotlight on the regional finals and give other tournaments the opportunity to host events very similar to the season finals
For the rest of the changes, we're still in finalizing the decisions with our partners and looking forward to hearing the community feedback.
An Idea hit me while reading all these posts. Maybe it's allready been posted in the 10 or so pages I havn't read and if so I apologize but I felt I had to write it down right away. (My text below will use the word finals a number of times, exchange this word with Blizzcon every time)
One of the major critics that you have gotten this year is people complaining that there are too many koreans everywhere and too few foreigners (stated in different ways).
How about if you took some of that extra space that you have freed up with just 3 seasons next year and threw in a real regional championship say 2 weeks before Blizzcon? Creating sort of a bridge between 2012 which some of us loved and 2013 which others love? It would work like this.
Gather the 16 or 32 best scoring players (wcs points) whos nationality are part of said region in this offline event. Have them compete in normal tournament style and crown the 2014 EU/AM/Asia champion. Give the champion a direct seed into the world finals at Blizzcon. He or she will hold the flag and pride of said region in the finals. Also invite last years champion directly into the finals as defending champion to create consistency and storyline (the rest are challangers for his/her crown). The other 12 at the Blizzcon finals would be the 12 with the highest wcs points that arn't one of these 4.
This Regional championship needs to be held close to the world final out of one reason that is more important than any other. You want the players that is the strongest "right now" to represent the region in the finals to give that player the best possible chanse of placing well in the finals as well. (The two weeks should give enough time to hype them into the finals I hope)
China and SEA should compete with Korea in this event for practical reasons of logistics and because it makes absolutely no sense for them to be part of EU or AM in this event.
This way you would hit a lot of birds (complainers) with 1 (3) stone and achieve the following:
1. Those of us who want to see who is the best players from a region and not the best korean in a region get this one event per year to look forward to. 2. You garantee that there will be atleast 2 foreigners in the finals. 3. A lot of hype and expectations following the region champions into the finals which is good out of commercial and marketing viewpoint for the finals. 4. It doesn't counteract the leagues. The points gathered in the leagues and major tournaments will still be very important. This also ensures a longer storyline throught the year.
You still need to figure out the region lock for the leagues but now the residency lock is reasonable seen out of all parties I think. With this event it doesn't matter as much if a korean win every leagues season of the year in EU or AM (as long as that actually help the EU/AM scene in some way). You might even be able to go for one of the soft approaches with dedicated spots for local talant etc instead of region locking the leagues as mentioned in the QA.
Wow, I had no idea Kim took over the position of Blizzard eSports Manager. I don't know if you can "fix" SC2 eSports (as many feel it's a design issue), but you were a big reason I loved the WC3 scene so I wish you all the best.
Personally, what makes watching the top foreigners or locals play is the idea that they might be good enough to ake out the favored koreans. Watching Scarlett in GSTL, Naniwa at IEM, or even Major putting up a hell of a fight in WCS AM is exciting. But I wouldn't be interested at all in watching them dominate a league of other canadians, mexicans, or swedes (okay the swedish one might be good). A region lock would make things strictly less interesting, imo. However, I love the idea of giving local talent more opportunities in their respective regions.
now the challenge for blizzard is to word it in such a way that it doesnt seem like they are discriminating against koreans. But in the end, "region locking" is directed solely to koreans.
When we launched WCS 2013, our main goal was to create a global system that was capable of identifying the undisputed, best StarCraft II player on the planet
well this is just lie. You don't do things that cost lots of money to give people a champion, a hero, out of sheer curiosity. You do it for more money. I'm ok with all that but please be honest Blizzard and do not treat us dumb, thanks.
I can promise you this is not a lie. We're certainly not investing in WCS to make money.
What I want gone is the "I train in Korea, I come 3 days for the offline part, take the money and then go back to get better training again" part. EU and NA don't get anything out of this.
My honest oppinion: - residency lock (people must live in that region) - have 3-4 spots (out of 32) be up for grabs in a qualifier for people who are not residents of that region (it's obvious it will be 4 koreans)
Ok what the hell is up with next season with challenger league. People are forfeiting left and right even without it being live. People think it's not even worth playing online.
On October 16 2013 02:33 CreationSoul wrote: What I want gone is the "I train in Korea, I come 3 days for the offline part, take the money and then go back to get better training again" part. EU and NA don't get anything out of this.
My honest oppinion: - residency lock (people must live in that region) - have 3-4 spots (out of 32) be up for grabs in a qualifier for people who are not residents of that region (it's obvious it will be 4 koreans)
I agree with the first part, but I'm not so sure the suggestions are 100% sound. How would you deal with seeding if 3-4 are open to "outsiders?" It'd be pretty lame to be the player A that has to face, say, Innovation vs player B that has to face a ToD (all apologies, I love Tod).
Also Kim, in regards to the distribution of prize money, have you guys considered pooling the money (as opposed to just increasing WCS prize funds) into creating lesser, online tournaments (like the Zotac monthly or old ESL weeklies). I've always felt that the biggest problem in the NA/KR scenes is the "one and done" feel whereby losing your WCS match means you have absolutely nothing else to do until the next season.
Having more opportunities to earn income (albeit smaller figures) is a lot healthier than being so top-heavy.
When we launched WCS 2013, our main goal was to create a global system that was capable of identifying the undisputed, best StarCraft II player on the planet
well this is just lie. You don't do things that cost lots of money to give people a champion, a hero, out of sheer curiosity. You do it for more money. I'm ok with all that but please be honest Blizzard and do not treat us dumb, thanks.
I can promise you this is not a lie. We're certainly not investing in WCS to make money.
But you guys should, just make somethign similar to the compendium (dota2) and i think a lot of people would buy that (if some cool stuff is added, for example new skins) I dotn know if you have the ressources to manage that, but it would be worth a try
Kim, please please please consider doing OSL as a separate parallel Korean event that gives high points and seeds to finals alongside GSL. Korea needs more going on to sustain it, and OSL shouldn't operate under GSL rules.
When we launched WCS 2013, our main goal was to create a global system that was capable of identifying the undisputed, best StarCraft II player on the planet
yeah, that doesn't work. it doesn't really matter how many regions and how many qualifiers you have, it's still going to come down to one enormous variancefest in the grand finals.
if only there was some sort of merit-based system built into SC2 where you could play enough games to counteract the variance endemic in all previous and current tournaments, and it automatically sorted people into levels of skill based on some points system created through wins and losses.
What blizzard really can do is -all offline premiere -strict schedules for premiere that is linear for different regions -better content things like "residency" requirement is going to be avoided if possible "citizenship" 100% won't be done so just give up on that idea
I would really like to see WCS Korea AT LEAST double in prize pool compared to the rest of the regions.
1. No Season Finals: Very Good. I´d like to have Blizzard bring together the 3 champions after each Series. They play out a 3 Competitor Bo 7 against each other. First season somewhere in NA, second season in EU and third in KR. Only that 3 guys, no more no less. Would be great.
2. Region lok: They HAVE to do something. Best way is to garantee an amount of spots to player from that scene. Maybe half of all spots in Premier RO 32. Challenger League offers as much spots for outsiders as there is room in premier.
3. 4th region: We need a SEA region, Chinese and Australian player + some other need there own WCS.
4. Ohter tournaments: Are great and have to be included in the schedule and the system
On October 16 2013 02:58 TaishiCi wrote: What blizzard really can do is -all offline premiere -strict schedules for premiere that is linear for different regions -better content things like "residency" requirement is going to be avoided if possible "citizenship" 100% won't be done so just give up on that idea
I would really like to see WCS Korea AT LEAST double in prize pool compared to the rest of the regions.
Well, if they cancel the season finals then they should have plenty of funds to reinvest. I am also personally hoping for all-offline premier league.
I think Blizzard has to consider that the regions are different; WCS Korea does deserve a higher prizepool than say, WCS AM, especially with region lock. Honestly, it would be a good incentive for the NA teams to open a team house in NA for their Koreans to live there.
On October 15 2013 23:02 iMAniaC wrote: First of all, I'd like to explicitly state that I was really happy with the Q&A. For me, WCS2014 went from "Anything could happen" to "These are the decisions that have been made and these are not finalized". I now know what we don't know and what we do know. I really appreciate it. Also, a Blizz representative discussing with us in the thread, makes me all happy and giddy inside You ask for our feedback, so here's mine (I'm sorry for the length; I'm not too good at being concise)
I would like to take a slightly different point of view for the discussion. Looking back at the start of 2013, it seems that the purpose of WCS EU/AM was to create a GSL-style league in Europe and America. Also, the purpose of WCS was to have a truly global league with a world champion at the end. However, at some point, those two were mixed up more than they needed to be, I think.
WCS EU/AM was great for EU and AM because it did indeed introduce a GSL-like league to the two regions. I would consider that a huge success and I certainly want to see that grow. However, for Korea, it became kind of a weird move. Korea already had a GSL, so they didn't need a GSL-like system implemented once more with WCS and the result became this weird WCS/GSL/OSL entanglement that didn't really work out, in my opinion. I think the uniqueness of the regions got overridden by the desire to have a uniform system all across the globe, where the same uniform system was not the best solution for every region. Based on that, I would like to propose that the WCS system doesn't have to be exactly the same in all regions. Instead of a top-down solution where Blizzard enforces a set system on the tournament organizers, I think it would be better with a bottom-up solution where Blizzard encourages what is already there or adds to it, like with the GSL-style WCS EU/AM, which was a successful addition to a scene which used to have only week-end LANs. If it ain't broke...
For Korea, I'd like to see less obvious involvement of Blizz in the GSL and OSL themselves. Instead of having the weird WCS/GSL/OSL entanglement, I think the leagues could exist on their own and then feed into WCS in a way that does not override the GSL and OSL brands, as it were. So the storyline is not "Player X became the WCS champion through GSL or OSL" but instead "Now, the champions from GSL and OSL will meet and compete for the title of WCS Champion". This meeting of GSL and OSL finals could be either a regional KR final or maybe they wouldn't actually meet until the World Finals.
(Also, I say "less obvious involvement" because it's pretty obvious that GOM and OGN are at their throats and that we, the public, can never know how much influence Blizzard has had over that, nor can we know how much influence Blizz will need to continue to exert. But just make it look like they're friends and let them do their thing, tournament-wise, and we'll all be happy even though we don't appreciate how muddy the relations might be. But I digress)
For Europe and America, Blizzard could continue or even perhaps step up their WCS production with ESL and NASL. Increasing production value, making it easier for players to visit/live by the studios etc. I don't know the details of how that actually works today, so I'm not going to make any detailed suggestions, but building up WCS EU/AM as the "GSL's of Europe and America" is the way to go, I think.
As for the the World Finals, I think it might be beneficial with several different routes to it; one route is by becoming a champion of a long-going tournament and another is to have gained enough points. The intuitions are there and in 2013 they were ensured by the spread of points. Having a massive amount of points for the finalists ensured that they were going to Blizzcon. However, it comes down to a very delicate act of balancing: Are we absolutely sure that the points are spread among all the different tournaments in order to ensure that the champions of those tournaments go to Blizzcon while a player who wins or places high in those and those tournaments also get a chance etc. It does work to a certain degree, but why not ensure it directly? One road to the WCS Finals is becoming a Champion, another is getting enough points. I think it could work.
Speaking of different roads to the Finals, I was surprised to see that Copa América was not included in the WCS ecosystem. I was so sure that you were trying to prepare it for inclusion for 2014. However, what about having a "back entrance" into the Finals for those regions that do not have a dedicated WCS region, or perhaps even for prestigious tournaments that are clearly outside the existing WCS ecosystem? So one or two of the slots for the Finals are dedicated to "up-and-coming" regions. Perhaps there could be a special tournament for the champions of Copa América, Vengeance Cup, TeSL, Chinese Leagues etc, from which the winner(s) go on to the WCS Finals. It would serve two goals: 1) Those cups, regions and scenes would not feel left out and the WCS would feel truly global again, and 2) it would encourage grassroots movements to keep up the quality of their tournaments or even encourage new tournaments to start up, knowing that if they become prestigious, they might become a part of WCS in a small way. I think it's great that Blizzard supports grassroots movements the way they do and hope that they will continue to do it.
Then to address the point you've surely been thinking about while reading this post: Streamlining. This doesn't seem very streamlined at all, while, on the other hand, one set of simple WCS points seems much more streamlined. However, I'd like to argue that my proposed system can indeed seem more streamlined than the points system of today. The system I propose has many roads to the Finals while the system of WCS2013 has (to continue the metaphor) one huge road with lots of lanes. You can't simply watch your specific player battling it out in his lane, you have to keep an eye on all the lanes. Does Player X go to Blizzcon? Well, that depends on what Player Y does in tournament I, player Z does in tournament J and player P does in tournament K. There is no way to follow simply a small part of the scene. It's all or nothing. With the system I propose, it's much easier to know for sure what's going on. Did player X win GSL? Yes, then he's going to Blizzcon. It's streamlined. Moreover, since another path to the Finals is through points, we will still get the "NaNiwa effect of IEM". Perhaps NaNiwa didn't win WCS EU 2014. Perhaps his only hope is to take another road to the Finals, and that road is winning IEM in 2014. It's still the same excitement and opportunities. The only change is that there are more roads to the Finals and there's a greater freedom in deciding who will get to go there because the points are not the end-all be-all of who gets to go. With that freedom, Blizz can ensure that the WCS Finals 2014 won't be another almost All-Korean tournament.
So there are 5 roads to the WCS Finals: 1) WCS Korea: Winning GSL or OSL 2) WCS Europe: Winning the tournament called WCS Europe 3) WCS America: Winning the tournament called WCS America 4) Gaining enough WCS points through competing in LANs like DreamHack, IEM etc. (or possibly also gaining WCS points within GSL/OSL/WCS EU/AM) 5) Competing in established prestigious region-specific tournaments; the "back entrance"
These are the competitors at the WCS Finals: 1) GSL Champion 2) Other top placing GSL player (perhaps season 2 winner or 2nd place?) 3) OSL Champion 4) Other top placing OSL player (perhaps season 2 winner or 2nd place?) 5) WCS EU Champion 6) Champion of prestigious region-locked European tournament? (Guaranteed non-Korean) 7) WCS AM Champion 8) Champion of prestigious region-locked American tournament? (Guaranteed non-Korean) 9) #1 ranked WCS Points 10) #2 ranked WCS Points 11) #3 ranked WCS Points 12) #4 ranked WCS Points 13) #5 ranked WCS Points 14) #6 ranked WCS Points 15) TeSL Champion (Guaranteed non-Korean) 16) Champion of the tournament between the winners of Copa América, Vengeance Cup, other regional cups etc. (Guaranteed non-Korean)
It's not perfect (like what to do to make the first season og GSL important in respect to the Finals), but a lot of problems could be solved through adjustment of player numbers for the Finals or adjustments for which slots go to what or possibly by giving WCS points within GSL/OSL/WCS EU/WCS AM as well. Perhaps it's possible for a guy who's placed 3rd in all three (or more) seasons of GSL to have enough points to go to the Finals. I don't have all the details thought out, but those are my thoughts at least. Also, by leaving the options open, one could, for instance, include prestigious tournaments that shape up during the next year. Like for instance if a US/Canada nationals-only cup starts up in February and becomes super-awesome by July, one could grant its winner a slot for the finals because there's a way around the WCS points.
Those are my two cents. Hope they contribute in some way (And sorry, again, for the length)
This is very similar to the LCS in the way that the champion of the major tournaments will gain a seed to the Finals, but I like the fusion of the current system so that it guarantees that there will be at least 4 non-Korean players out of the 16. Makes for great storylines and very possible upsets.
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote: "we're looking to"
"we're planning to"
"we're still evaluating"
"we will put more thought into"
...just, ugh.
"we have been considering"
Yeah it was hard to glean any concrete information. Two biggest points (from skimming the interview) is that Blizzard is at least somewhat listening to the community and that some changes may very well be in stores.
Highly dislike this though:
We think non-WCS tournaments are crucial to the StarCraft II ecosystem, and we do have plans to extend the WCS storyline to more tournaments.
Really everything was fine when every tournament was a non-WCS tournament. It's like they're trying to force themselves on even MORE tournaments, I just find this distasteful (can't use "tasteless" as that would be a compliment).
I just registered to be able to give out my opinions.
The system needs to make sure the best players go to the global finals, the current system cannot guarantee that. Why is the earned WCS points from season 1 being used to determine who will be playing after season 3 final? We need a player ranking, we need seeded players in the tournaments and we need to increase the price pool for major tournaments.
We think non-WCS tournaments are crucial to the StarCraft II ecosystem, and we do have plans to extend the WCS storyline to more tournaments.
Really everything was fine when every tournament was a non-WCS tournament. It's like they're trying to force themselves on even MORE tournaments, I just find this distasteful (can't use "tasteless" as that would be a compliment).
I very appreciate if we have more weekends tournaments but I dislike if Blizzard forces DH, IEM, ... to make more events. I dislike that nearly every tournament gives wcs points. We need more indepence.
We have no interest in outshining or overshadowing the various groups that have helped StarCraft grow over the many years,
I feel Blizz did exactly this with intention. Overshadowing all weekends-tournaments and groups.
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote: "we're looking to"
"we're planning to"
"we're still evaluating"
"we will put more thought into"
...just, ugh.
exact my feeling when i was reading through wall of text..
what is the meaning of Q & A session when it is so formal and has no real content at all (imo)
I want sc2 to be successful, no hating Blizzard at and I am very aware that this is much harder issue to deal with then Dota or LoL, but still everyone know that Blizzard can do better then this. I am getting feeling that Blizzard employees dont feel passionate about sc2 scene at all. David Kim? Dustin Browder? i am not sure...
When we launched WCS 2013, our main goal was to create a global system that was capable of identifying the undisputed, best StarCraft II player on the planet
well this is just lie. You don't do things that cost lots of money to give people a champion, a hero, out of sheer curiosity. You do it for more money. I'm ok with all that but please be honest Blizzard and do not treat us dumb, thanks.
I can promise you this is not a lie. We're certainly not investing in WCS to make money.
Kimaphan Honestly I would not even validate a statement like that with an answer You guys are doing a really good job on trying to listen to what the fan base wants and attempting to improve the system and like plansix said noone has the True and correct answer on making the system perfect but we can keep trying to perfect the system that s in place
I haven't read all, but from what I have, I can say that there's been a lot of constructive ideas, opinions and feedback that can be used in order to improve the WCS system, but sometimes I feel that Blizzard is just not very flexible and fast with implementing changes. I hope that, at least in this case, I am wrong.
I'll try to be as concise and short as possible, mostly because others have already showed the benefits but also the disadvantages of these main suggestions.
First of all, region-lock, or at least some kind of region-lock restrictions, such as residence, team etc. should come into play to help "local" talent growth. Second of all, in order to help the sustainability of the korean scene, there should be a prize purse increase for the top league in Korea. Challenger/Code A should also become a tournament by itself (and paid accordingly, perhaps to the level of the premier leagues in other regions), pretty much as UEFA League is to Champions League. They could perhaps even do a "Super Cup" between the winners, just for the laughs. Thirdly, more regions should be developed, like China+Oceania, South America etc., at least at a Challenger League level, with the best players having the chance to participate in the more powerful leagues as a reward.
On October 15 2013 23:19 FFW_Rude wrote: Well reading the responses to my posts were kind of sad.
People have different expectation. What i write is what i think. Not what everybody thinks Just my opinion.
I, for one want to see great players and best player. Sure i like some of the underdogs but i can relate that i root for Flash because i relate to him (i'm not korean, i'm bw zerg player) somehow. I should have wrote : "why on earth should I" and not "should you" (bad english is bad).
What i wanted to say is that when BW was only korean people didn't really care of national heroes (because they were none/few). Foreigner wants foreigner is a thing that came with SC2 i feel.
I don't want region lock to be based on country. I want region lock on teams. So Jaedong is EG, he plays in US, MVP is in IM, => Korea. ForGG is in millenium => EU. And i don't want a grand final between those 3. I want a 4year olympic style when there is region lock country. I think that would satisfy a lot of people (but maybe i'm wrong)
I'm an old guy from BW So my heroes are koreans. Even if i'm not. I understand what you mean. It's difficult to argument in this language for me
Well a lot of people aren't from BW and they don't have that level of attachment. People want to grow their local scene and that takes some rules and restrictions. No one want to see scrubs play in the finals. But we also don't need 16 top Korean players to avoid terrible games.
I never watched any BW, but I'm still cheering for the Koreans nine out of ten times. I've been watching WCS Europe because watching live is preferable to VODs (and also Apollo!) but if there were no Koreans in EU I'd go back to watching the GSL/WCS KR VODs again like I did earlier. I'm a fan of individual players, and not nationality or teams, those only come into effect if two players I like play against each other. I don't see the point of having anything but the best players in Top 16 (even if they are all Koreans). They are just going to loose to the Koreans in the first round anyway (if we were to assume a hard region lock)? That said, I realize some sort of soft lock is probably good for both the scene and viewernumbers, as long as it doesn't go overboard.
On October 16 2013 00:10 StarStruck wrote: It's their way of putting words in your mouth. It's a common trend. -_-
On October 16 2013 00:05 edlover420 wrote: Seeing how most people want region lock, as much as I don't like the idea myself I think Blizzard should listen to the community. However if regions get locked, Korea should get noticeably! bigger price pool to make ''GSL'' once again the most prestigious tournament and slots for challenger league in Korea should be greatly increased for the sustainability of the Korean scene.
GSL and OSL should stand on their own. WCS should be separate. Give some reason for the Koreans to want to stay in Korea. Otherwise, there won't be much left there.
The racism line was broken out several times during the course of this thread. Never by FFW_Rude, though. But it is still a shitty, half assed argument people throw around to avoid making real arguments.
What plansix said. I'm sorry if it seemed that I was accusing anyone in particular of doing it. The Racism/Xenophobia/etc arguments are obnoxious and I can't imagine any reason for them other than to elicit a passionate response rather than a logical one.
On October 16 2013 01:12 kellymilkies wrote: Ok well, this interview really answered nothing for me. It just reads like a PR reply from Blizzard to "pacify the community" Sorry. For someone like me who loves starcraft 2 so much, I hope they fix WCS 2014 especially when it comes to schedule and the region locking. gl. edit: also the fact that I miss tournaments which did their own shit and was epic. like GSL. Winning GSL = dream. but now gsl is just another place where you watch players earn points. They need to make each individual tournament mean something to the community. not sure how they are gonna do that but they really really should try.
I'm glad to see another journalist reply to this. I agree with your thoughts 100%
buried under dem comments, ppl should read and answer to this
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
Reads like a Blizzard announcement. Now all they need to do is ditch 30% of that because: the time wasn't right/saved for later/the tech isn't there yet/didn't feel epic/somethingsomething
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
1) MUCH MORE prize money in Korea
2) MORE tournaments in Korea
3) MORE WCS Points in Korea
this should entice the koreans the compete in Korea instead of coming to NA an EU for easy money and WCS points. Then we dont need a region lock. And for the foreigners good enough to compete with the koreans, they can go to korea to try to pick up additional WCS points and additional prize money.
That would be a good thought but realizing that koreans are very wise when it comes to deciding whether or not to participate in a tournament. I prize might be higher in one tournament than the other but the chance of winning in it becomes slimmer so they go for the easier tournament where its almost guaranteed money and points.
btw its not wise to focus too much on korea since the market for sc2 is kinda small there, blizz should focus more on foreign events, since there were dem money is
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
1) MUCH MORE prize money in Korea
2) MORE tournaments in Korea
3) MORE WCS Points in Korea
this should entice the koreans the compete in Korea instead of coming to NA an EU for easy money and WCS points. Then we dont need a region lock. And for the foreigners good enough to compete with the koreans, they can go to korea to try to pick up additional WCS points and additional prize money.
EZ PZ problem solved.
Small little details: Either they get MUCH more money from blizzard, or the solution is removing pretty much all price money from EU/AM. Case one is unlikely, so we have option two. That means that EU/AM players won't earn enough to focus on SC2, which slows down the speed at which EU/AM can compete with KR.
Furthermore forcing players to go to KR is another huge step for them. Spending half your time during your studies practising SC2 and going a few times 1-2 weeks to another country in Europe for example is one thing. Living in Korea is something else. Even more true for the younger players, getting your parents to sign of on you doing some tournaments in another country is doable, getting them to sign off on you going to play a videogame on another continent for months is slightly more difficult (for good reason btw).
Just do a region lock depending on where people live: So a Polt may happily continue playing in WCS AM. If forGG has a visa he may happily continue playing in WCS EU. But not living in KR and playing in EU/AM. Other regions (Africa, China, etc) may choose wherever they want to play.
On October 16 2013 04:30 Killmouse wrote: btw its not wise to focus too much on korea since the market for sc2 is kinda small there, blizz should focus more on foreign events, since there were dem money is
But isn't top Koreans retireing our biggest problem right now?
On October 16 2013 04:30 Killmouse wrote: btw its not wise to focus too much on korea since the market for sc2 is kinda small there, blizz should focus more on foreign events, since there were dem money is
But isn't top Koreans retireing our biggest problem right now?
no, oversaturated playerbase, with too few viewers, unwise to spend money there when there wont be any roi
On October 15 2013 15:55 Hectorian wrote: Less Koreans, more foreigners. I liked the 2012 version better
What is your opinion on Chinese and Taiwanese players in WCS AM?
Same obviously, I like the concept where players represent their country and region/continent. I would also like China/Tawain/Asia region, Southamerica region and Austraila region.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
Personally, I think the biggest focusing should be on providing incentive for teams to be able to support their players. By supporting teams monetarily (or providing incentives for them to be supported monetarily) you would help a greater number of players than any of the other options. By creating an opportunity for good players to be able to take some time off after high school to play without any more major worries you give the opportunity for players to spend the time and effort needed to become competitive. If you go further and put restrictions and rules on the support provided, you can regulate the teams that are able to take advantage (not giving random money to teams that have never had random money before for instance) and can facilitate the growth of those players in skill level because they're in an environment that would facilitate that growth.
I'm imagining a team like ROOT, who as far as I can see has done a good job with their team house and the players seem to be doing really well. I haven't been keeping up on the drama regarding their fundraiser (I thought it was a great idea and have no qualms with it) but otherwise the team's growth, ability, and extreme support of the NA scene is exactly what we need for this region to grow. Give teams the ability to take on and support more members of the regions. By helping to support the Korean teams as well, you give them at least some financial security. Maybe by taking Riot's stance and employing some individuals from other regions that there are no WCS events in so they might have an easier time with visas and still be able to take advantage of the program.
I also feel that opening up the opportunity for non-players and non-casters is sorely needed. We have a huge opportunity for production here, lets create some sort of area where legitimate content producers from in front of or behind the camera can generate that content. Even if it's not in employment, put out calls for artists, editors, sound guys, etc. to work with existing tournaments to give them something exciting to be a part of.
On October 16 2013 04:30 Killmouse wrote: btw its not wise to focus too much on korea since the market for sc2 is kinda small there, blizz should focus more on foreign events, since there were dem money is
This 100%. It is not the foreign scene's responsibility to support the Korean scene. Korea needs to be able to stand on its own.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
1) MUCH MORE prize money in Korea
2) MORE tournaments in Korea
3) MORE WCS Points in Korea
this should entice the koreans the compete in Korea instead of coming to NA an EU for easy money and WCS points. Then we dont need a region lock. And for the foreigners good enough to compete with the koreans, they can go to korea to try to pick up additional WCS points and additional prize money.
EZ PZ problem solved.
Just do a region lock depending on where people live: So a Polt may happily continue playing in WCS AM. If forGG has a visa he may happily continue playing in WCS EU. But not living in KR and playing in EU/AM. Other regions (Africa, China, etc) may choose wherever they want to play.
dont think that will work. If the prize pool stays relatively the same across all regions, what is going to stop koreans from physically moving to NA or EU? like MC, MMA, stardust, polt etc? They physical move to these regions and still continue to dominate. When more koreans do the same, which will inevitably happen, are people going to call for a Citizenship requirement?
I suspect blizzard will probably do a region lock but with the stipulation that regions that do not have a WCS tournament (re:China) may participate in whichever region they choose.
Thanks for the in-depth information on the future of WCS. Here are my thoughts/suggestions for the various issues brought up:
Region Locking: I'm a fan of the residency requirement, although that can be difficult for some players. As an example, ForGG took a long time to actually get a resident visa to reside in France for an extended period of time. What I'd like to see is that you need to reside in the region you participate in, or are in a team based out of said region. This way, you would encourage Korean players to go to foreign teams, where they could rub off on the foreign players they train with, while at the same time keeping the number of Korean players playing in challenger league to a limited number. As an example, Jaedong is on EG, so he could play in Korea or America, same with Taeja/Hero and being on Team Liquid, TLO since he lives in Germany could play in America or Europe, etc.
Additionally, I'm in favor of increasing the prize pool for the Korean region. It is, without question, the hardest region, so I think its only fair if they get more money for winning compared to America and Europe.
Season Finals: I like the season finals, and want it to stay, but I think there is an issue when it takes place so soon after the various region finals. As an example, there was a strong interest on my part in watching Naniwa and Scarlet during the S2 finals and how far they were both able to get. However, when you have an issue like the S1 finals, where Soulkey beating Innovation is a huge deal and then Innovation wins the S1 finals a week later, that takes away from the specialness of the regional finals. I think with the spaced out tournaments, if you had a 4-5 week break between all the premier leagues, and held the season finals there, it would mean more and feel more special.
Additionally, I think the point totals for the Season Finals are too high. While I do agree the season finals should grant more points, I think it should be lowered to a non-WCS T1 point bonus. This would place more of an emphasis on the regional tournaments I feel, and not create a scenario like it is now where most of the seeds are locked up by people who did well in one Season Finals tournament, and would reward consistent play over the entire tournament over one good run.
Challenger League: As an idea for challenger league, how about tournaments which would guarantee spots in Challenger league? As an example, you could set up a tournament for a challenger league spot in America, and limit the participation to people who reside in Taiwan or Australia or China who haven't been in Challenger League. The giant tournament format is ok, but it is very easy to lose to small mistakes and have to play through the entire long tournament again, which I imagine for the players is not fun or rewarding. With more smaller tournaments, it could expand the viewer-base and participation of players.
Team Leagues: I really would like to see a WCS team-league system incorporated along with the current system. While I would not want to see it with the regularity of Premier/Challenger league, the idea of a team-league format during the down-time would be very intriguing to me. Additionally, with my earlier suggestion of being able to play in a region f you're on a team based out of that region, it would definitely attract a larger group of players and help to improve play to the specific regions.
Good luck with the future, I've been very pleased with WCS so far.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
1) MUCH MORE prize money in Korea
2) MORE tournaments in Korea
3) MORE WCS Points in Korea
this should entice the koreans the compete in Korea instead of coming to NA an EU for easy money and WCS points. Then we dont need a region lock. And for the foreigners good enough to compete with the koreans, they can go to korea to try to pick up additional WCS points and additional prize money.
EZ PZ problem solved.
Just do a region lock depending on where people live: So a Polt may happily continue playing in WCS AM. If forGG has a visa he may happily continue playing in WCS EU. But not living in KR and playing in EU/AM. Other regions (Africa, China, etc) may choose wherever they want to play.
dont think that will work. If the prize pool stays relatively the same across all regions, what is going to stop koreans from physically moving to NA or EU? like MC, MMA, stardust, polt etc? They physical move to these regions and still continue to dominate. When more koreans do the same, which will inevitably happen, are people going to call for a Citizenship requirement?
You could do that, but I don't think it is a problem. Sure some will move, but I don't see it happening on large scale. A Polt is in the US for example for a different reason. Being able to easily play WCS AM is of course a nice bonus for him, but thats not the main reason he is there. And I think it is then not unreasonable to let him play there.
Also look at a WCS EU. Even for the better Koreans the online rounds aren't exactly a walkover, as a forgg can testify. So if they wouldn't have issues with completely moving to Europe (and they actually get a visa for it), then why don't they even play their challenger league/RO32 from Europe? But instead play from Korea, and get kicked out. Maybe with less latency they could have made it.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
1) MUCH MORE prize money in Korea
2) MORE tournaments in Korea
3) MORE WCS Points in Korea
this should entice the koreans the compete in Korea instead of coming to NA an EU for easy money and WCS points. Then we dont need a region lock. And for the foreigners good enough to compete with the koreans, they can go to korea to try to pick up additional WCS points and additional prize money.
EZ PZ problem solved.
Just do a region lock depending on where people live: So a Polt may happily continue playing in WCS AM. If forGG has a visa he may happily continue playing in WCS EU. But not living in KR and playing in EU/AM. Other regions (Africa, China, etc) may choose wherever they want to play.
dont think that will work. If the prize pool stays relatively the same across all regions, what is going to stop koreans from physically moving to NA or EU? like MC, MMA, stardust, polt etc? They physical move to these regions and still continue to dominate. When more koreans do the same, which will inevitably happen, are people going to call for a Citizenship requirement?
You could do that, but I don't think it is a problem. Sure some will move, but I don't see it happening on large scale. A Polt is in the US for example for a different reason. Being able to easily play WCS AM is of course a nice bonus for him, but thats not the main reason he is there. And I think it is then not unreasonable to let him play there.
Also look at a WCS EU. Even for the better Koreans the online rounds aren't exactly a walkover, as a forgg can testify. So if they wouldn't have issues with completely moving to Europe (and they actually get a visa for it), then why don't they even play their challenger league/RO32 from Europe? But instead play from Korea, and get kicked out. Maybe with less latency they could have made it.
yeah i think if a person uproots their life to move to another country they deserve to be able to compete in local tournaments. let's not undersell the significance of choosing to live in another part of the world, especially at the age of most progamers
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
1) MUCH MORE prize money in Korea
2) MORE tournaments in Korea
3) MORE WCS Points in Korea
this should entice the koreans the compete in Korea instead of coming to NA an EU for easy money and WCS points. Then we dont need a region lock. And for the foreigners good enough to compete with the koreans, they can go to korea to try to pick up additional WCS points and additional prize money.
EZ PZ problem solved.
Just do a region lock depending on where people live: So a Polt may happily continue playing in WCS AM. If forGG has a visa he may happily continue playing in WCS EU. But not living in KR and playing in EU/AM. Other regions (Africa, China, etc) may choose wherever they want to play.
dont think that will work. If the prize pool stays relatively the same across all regions, what is going to stop koreans from physically moving to NA or EU? like MC, MMA, stardust, polt etc? They physical move to these regions and still continue to dominate. When more koreans do the same, which will inevitably happen, are people going to call for a Citizenship requirement?
It seems like one of the things that is agreed upon is the idea of a "soft" region lock. Remember when the the seeds for Season 1 of NA WCS were announced, there wasn't any outrage over Polt being seeded while there was outrage over the exclusion of DeMusliM. If the half of the Kespa teams want to pack up and move to NA and practice on the NA server, then I'd predict that most of the community would be ok with that because they would then be part of the NA scene, and America has a really great tradition of being accepting of immigrants.
The problem that region locking is supposed to solve is the phenomena of Koreans playing challenger league qualifiers, challenger league, and premiere league RO32 online from Korea and just flying in for a week and a half to play out the remainder of premiere league. When that happens, they are still functionally part of the Korean scene, not the NA/EU scene. That doesn't help the NA scene by improving the level of play because the only time NA players will hit their Korean opponents is in the tournament itself. Right now it's possible to be consistently #1 on the NA ladder and be at a huge still disadvantage in the NA premiere league because you never hit your prospective opponents in practice-- this is one reason why the "just practice harder" meme is completely wrong.
What everyone wants is a realistic way for for an up-and-coming NA player to be able to mature as a player. Right now that is pretty impossible because the events specifically designed for up-and-coming NA players (challenger league qualifiers and challenger league) are being dominated by Koreans living and playing from Korea.
wcs plans to figure out the best sc2 player on the planet and then proceeds to talk about region lock? does that make sense to any of you? a semi region lock is suppose to help local champions raise, but why would wcs care if that local champion is not the best on the planet? just these thoughts are bugging me for a very long time and finally kim has answered by stating clearly what wcs goals are
creating viewship being first on the list i would just simply stand by my previous posts... i watch the games i play, and if blizzard make sc2 the game i play then i watch... i certainly hopes this makes sense for you
the way to accomplish the remaining 3 goals watch golf and understand fedex cup is all about there is already a "solo" "sport" with comparable "ranking system"
we could actually rank players globally be exactly how much prize money each player makes... real enough for you?
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You would think the top priority is ultimately growth in viewership therefore the player-base LotV would come into... WCS should be focused on what they are meant to do rather than worry about the masses of opinions that a niche of their revenue base has. If the player-base and viewership increases there will be more WCS prize pool, BlizzCon prize pool, travel to tournaments, league/player housing, new regions, amateur and grassroots level play, regional tournaments/leagues. It is more about what Blizzard can do through WCS to generate interest in Sc2. Even if that means a temporary decrease in WCS activities I hope Blizzard will invest the money into the BEST course of action to increase the player base and viewership of Sc2 eSport related events.
The priority has to be to increase viewership. Bigger viewership means more money from advertisement, more interest from sponsors, and therefore more and better teams and players, and so on.
The best way to increase viewership for an esport is to get more people to play the game. And as demonstrated by LoL and Dota2, the best way to get more people to play your game is to make it free to play. Making the multiplayer part of SC2 free to play is the only way to make SC2 competitive with LoL. It won't actually beat LoL without other changes, but at least if SC2 is F2P the viewer numbers will be on a similar order of magnitude.
Other things might help: Making 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 more balanced and more fun, making chatrooms in bnet 2.0 more apparent and more appealing, integrating automated tournaments into SC2 (like in WC3), making gameplay more varied (even if it means hurting balance a bit), and so on.
Of course, none of this has to do with WCS as such. I guess WCS could be improved, but it doesn't really matter when the viewership is so low.
It's time we stop treating regions the same, pretending that AM=EU=KR. Fact of the matter is, you guys FORCED koreans to go to different leagues when you made the prize and point pool to be the same. Of course players will jump ship to go to the easier leagues. Duh! Let's use the football example again to explain how this could easily be fixed without even touching region lock (although I do support region lock to a certain extent).
Split the prize pool something like
Korea: 50% Europe: 30% America: 20%
To simplify with an example, blizzard spent $450,000 on each season premier+finals last year with the timeline for 4, so the new revised timeline with 3 for the whole year, that's about $600,000 per season. Let's split the money around:
Korea: $300,000 Europe: $175,000 America: $125,00
Play around with the numbers here and there using excel, you can get a pretty good prize pool split for those percentages. Here's what less than 10 minutes in excel came up with. Please note that this is obviously not the "ideal" split or whatever, it's just used for a general idea of what a bigger prize pool split across more players differently per region would look like. I split 3rd and 4th, as not only does that create an extra fun match, but also I've always hated the idea of not having a 3rd/4th placement match/different in price pool...
note: I've been messing with the numbers outside of excel so they may not add up perfectly, but you get the picture lol
You tell me this wouldn't automatically force some koreans to want to stay in korea? Sure, the other leagues are "easier", but the prize pool is smaller, so the benefits aren't ALL there. A top korean would look at this split and say "well I could go to america and win ez money, but damn, that's a 30K difference in first place...". It would automatically fix most of the region lock problems for top koreans. I guarantee at least the likes of Taeja, Jaedong, Mvp, etc would go play in korea, while other great koreans in foreign teams (ForGG, Revival, duckdeok, Heart, etc) that might not break premier in KR would stick around in foreign lands, still increasing the overall skill of AM/EU, but not dominating it.
On the flipside, if the minigun's of america and grubby's of europe complain "why does my 9th spot only get me 2500 when 9th in korea is 6500", then I simply say "well go to korea and earn 9th then". I'm fine with not letting koreans flood the foreign events, but don't expect to keep the best players out AND make just as much money. That's not "fair" or "good for the scene", that's just plain UNFAIR. From my example, the NA prize pool pretty much stays the same (It's actually better tbh), while the extra money from not having seasonal finals gets funneled partially into europe and mostly into korea. All fair imo.
To further this "league difference", why don't we make points seeding to blizzcon be competed with within each league? For example, instead of just awarding the same amount of points to every league and say "whoever has the most comes to blizzcon", why don't we implement a "Champion's League" style of seeding, where each region has a number of allowed seeds. Simplest would of course be
Korea: 8 seeds Europe: 4 seeds America: 4 seeds
This idea I'm not as sure with, so it could be tweeked of course, along with playing with the region locking. I feel this might segregate the regions a bit too much, although even in joint events (DH, IEM, etc), there would still be incentive for all players from different regions to fight each other for points, just not as direct. Leave blizzcon as is, we like seeing pimps from all over fight each other. Would love to hear some opinions on this, especially counter points, as to this day I still havn't come to terms with the fact that Korea got shafted so hard on $$$ and points.
Other than that, just more tournaments really. The foreign scene I feel is pretty good with Dreamhack, IEM, MLG, HSC, ASUS, etc etc, but we definitely need more korean tournaments. Going from liek 5-6 GSLs + OSL per year to only 3 tournaments is going to kill the scene, no matter how big the prize pool is.
tl;dr: Funnel the extra money from no more seasonal finals partially into europe and mostly into korea, and have more korean events outside of WCS. Would love to hear a response to this from kimaphan.
We need a single control site to be able to watch the tournament in a progressive fashion. Shouldn't have to scroll through 10 websites to find the games.
Look at the Koreans in the SPL, you can watch every game, easily organized into the date it was played with updated brackets for each week so you can follow what's going on.
The Korean scene cannot sustain the current amount of pro players on its own. Why should it be subsidized from the regions outside of Korea? Yes, Korea have the best (and most!) players. But favoring them by funneling money from outside and to Korea simply serves to keep the status quo. Korean domination in SC2 is a not healthy for the scene. It's severely damaging viewer interest in the tournaments outside of Korea. But the only way to change the Korean supremacy in terms of skill is to let there be fewer Korean pro's (or a lot more pro's outside of Korea). And the only feasible way to get to that point is to have the Korean scene suffer the consequences of its lack of popularity in its home country (which is already happening, to a degree).
The SC2 scene outside of Korea cannot compete with a Korean SC2 scene attuned to the heyday of Starcraft as a national sport. But SC2 in Korea is much less popular. And trying to ensure that the amount of players and level of commitment stay the same as in BW is self-defeating to the SC2 scene as a whole.
2012 was saved by Stephano managing to go deep and compete with top Koreans on a regular basis. Since then the Kespa infusion has resulted in higher general skill level in Korea. What will save 2014, when it's Korean only top 8s?
seasonal finals should be replaced with something else, while the spectatle weekends have been really great, - they kind of have lowered the prestige of regional tournaments more compared to what they were worth on their own.
what that something is, should not overshadow regional accomplishments, but still provide frequent insight into how well different scenes and regions are doing
perhaps several ( 3-4) international small-scale showdowns, where you dont fight for yourself, but for your region... the successful players will be compensated with a small prize pool and some wcs points - but representing your region succesfully would bring benefits for your region ( maybe additional prize pool to the regional league or perhaps extra slots for the grand final of the year ) - so the storyline of those smaller international showdowns would really be about regions not players.
I know KR would probably dominate those events, but if the tournament is small enough ( maybe 9-12 players ) - and the regional lock will allow participation with resident (not citizenship) status, there is always that small chance of besting the dominant region for a season - and EU/AM rivarly for the 2nd spot benefits would probably incite some emotions too.
Also, i think maybe there should be more than one time a year where the crowning of best player in the world takes place, so in addition to blizzcon grand gigantic finals, perhaps there should be also second big international "summer champion" event.
edit: that small scale showdown could be even be done in team format as a bo3 each regional team plays each other once in allkill, once in proleague format and if that ties up - a bo3/bo5 ace match
Something I haven't seen, and was thinking about last night - it might be a good idea to rework the points system, both for WCS and for the "Tier" tournaments to an extent that makes the point spread closer in order to build some more tension, and also to add more point opportunities for players in tournaments.
As an example, something that doesn't mean winning 1 tournament gives the same point amount as getting 3rd in three or four other tournaments. Close up the gaps, so that winning still gives you a good boost, but so that players that only win one or two tournaments gain enough points to comfortably top the point leaderboard for the next season or year.
Also add points at a lower level for just being in a tournament - very low amounts for everyone up to about the top 64/32 (would have to figure out where the break point is) and then increase from there. Include lower general numbers for lower tier tournaments, and include WCS points for more tournaments (up to and including daily cups) so that there is more motivation for people to play more tournaments. For an end of year, include two prize pools - those who top the point leader board, and also the current style prize pool for the end of year "World Series" at Blizzcon.
Part of the problem with WCS is that tournaments that don't award points have less incentive unless they have a large prize pool for players to attend. (There's also fewer tournaments going on, but that's not something Blizzard alone can solve - they need other organizations to put them on. They can incentivize, and offer support, but unless they take over all tournaments it's not something they alone can fix.)
My priority for Blizzard in 2014 would be to support more grass roots and Pro-Am tournaments at a local level (specifically in AM, EU, and SEA) while also trying to make connections with the Chinese community of players, fans, and organizers. For an idea of what I'm thinking of, go back and listen to MLG Sundance's opening speech at MLG Orlando 2011. (But, unlike Sundance, actually follow through and have a plan of action. Sundance had an interesting vision of eSports working similar to Little League and Youth Soccer, but that's all I can see he's ever done with it. Sorry Sundance/MLG, but I just don't see the support coming from you on this.) Get more involved with people that you might not be too aware of and that aren't as well known - the TESPAs, NESLs, the guys running the LA tournament at the car dealership, the Irish tournament guys. Offer partnership opportunities to encourage people to step up and get involved in having more lower level tournaments. If people have more opportunities to compete, even locally, you get more people interested in getting better and putting the effort in to improve. (And players are somewhat to blame for the lack of skill uniformity - if you want to be the best, you have to put in the time and effort to do so. There needs to be a support system, coaches, and a plan. Just laddering all day everyday will help some people, but by no means will it be as useful.) Again, look at how major sports function - there is a pathway and support for people to start playing at a low level (community leagues, little leagues, etc) and then move on while continuing to improve or deciding to do something else through high school, college, and into the pros. In eSports, it's pretty much just - I'm good, but not good enough, or I'm on a Professional team. There is no clear path to go from casual player to amateur player to Pro.
You play, you have to beat professionals in major tournaments, and then you are a professional. There's little space for "competitive amateurs".
TL; dr - Of course, I could be wrong, but that's just my opinion. It seems like there's a lack of "career paths" for professionals (outside of Korea, definitely), a lack of supporting structure like coachs and planned practice regimes (again, outside of Korea), and the point system seems to heavily reward only the top top players, as opposed to consistent performers making gradual improvements. It's "Go big or go home", and it may be disheartening to people on the bubble who are trying to decide if it's worth all the effort and time. (Also an argument for soft region locks.) Oh, and teams also need to be looking at the structure and farm system if they can. That could help - having a focus on ROI for image or sponsors doesn't help players get better - you have to put the time into improvements. EGTL getting Coach Park was wonderful for those that were under him. Players should WANT that kind of focus on helping players get better.
On October 16 2013 05:10 SeakayKu wrote: wcs plans to figure out the best sc2 player on the planet and then proceeds to talk about region lock? does that make sense to any of you? a semi region lock is suppose to help local champions raise, but why would wcs care if that local champion is not the best on the planet? just these thoughts are bugging me for a very long time and finally kim has answered by stating clearly what wcs goals are
creating viewship being first on the list i would just simply stand by my previous posts... i watch the games i play, and if blizzard make sc2 the game i play then i watch... i certainly hopes this makes sense for you
the way to accomplish the remaining 3 goals watch golf and understand fedex cup is all about there is already a "solo" "sport" with comparable "ranking system"
we could actually rank players globally be exactly how much prize money each player makes... real enough for you?
I've seen several of these comments over the last few pages. That's not what Kim said at all, lol. That's what we call indirect growth. Any increases in viewership will be marginal at best no matter what changes you make to the format. I'd make the system even leaner because there's still quite a bit going on. 3 Seasons with 3 qualifiers for Challenger/Survivor, Premiere League and the Grand Final not necessarily happening at the same time is still a lot. I'd also think about re-branding the actual Tournament. There's already a lot of negativity associated directly with the WCS as you can see people are quick to jump on it without reading the actual thread. A good way to break the negative connotation is too properly brand it.
As for the guy right above me. Are you kidding? There are all sorts of jobs in the market at the moment. I can come up with several new positions that we could use in this market. It doesn't matter if your a pro gamer or not. We need several technicians, people to enforce policy, people to come up with policy, engineers (there are several ways we can make the booths better and give players options- like LED lights changing to the color they pick instead of using red and blue all the time), etc. There are many positions out there for work as long as you can make yourself useful.
On October 16 2013 05:56 rename wrote: seasonal finals should be replaced with something else, while the spectatle weekends have been really great, - they kind of have lowered the prestige of regional tournaments more compared to what they were worth on their own.
what that something is, should not overshadow regional accomplishments, but still provide frequent insight into how well different scenes and regions are doing
perhaps several ( 3-4) international small-scale showdowns, where you dont fight for yourself, but for your region... the successful players will be compensated with a small prize pool and some wcs points - but representing your region succesfully would bring benefits for your region ( maybe additional prize pool to the regional league or perhaps extra slots for the grand final of the year ) - so the storyline of those smaller international showdowns would really be about regions not players.
I know KR would probably dominate those events, but if the tournament is small enough ( maybe 9-12 players ) - and the regional lock will allow participation with resident (not citizenship) status, there is always that small chance of besting the dominant region for a season - and EU/AM rivarly for the 2nd spot benefits would probably incite some emotions too.
Also, i think maybe there should be more than one time a year where the crowning of best player in the world takes place, so in addition to blizzcon grand gigantic finals, perhaps there should be also second big international "summer champion" event.
edit: that small scale showdown could be even be done in team format as a bo3 each regional team plays each other once in allkill, once in proleague format and if that ties up - a bo3/bo5 ace match
They already said they were getting rid of seasonal finals. People please read.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You would think the top priority is ultimately growth in viewership therefore the player-base LotV would come into... WCS should be focused on what they are meant to do rather than worry about the masses of opinions that a niche of their revenue base has. If the player-base and viewership increases there will be more WCS prize pool, BlizzCon prize pool, travel to tournaments, league/player housing, new regions, amateur and grassroots level play, regional tournaments/leagues. It is more about what Blizzard can do through WCS to generate interest in Sc2. Even if that means a temporary decrease in WCS activities I hope Blizzard will invest the money into the BEST course of action to increase the player base and viewership of Sc2 eSport related events.
I was surprised "Increased Viewership" wasn't listed because as you've mentioned when the viewership increases so do prize pools and sponsorships teams receive to send their players out to tournaments. Ideally a growing prize pool and expansion of regions would be a sign of a healthy organization, things like in client WCS support, tournament passes that grant access to special skins, fantasy teams, etc. all seem to be missing from blizzards peripheral.
On October 16 2013 05:56 rename wrote: seasonal finals should be replaced with something else, while the spectatle weekends have been really great, - they kind of have lowered the prestige of regional tournaments more compared to what they were worth on their own.
what that something is, should not overshadow regional accomplishments, but still provide frequent insight into how well different scenes and regions are doing
perhaps several ( 3-4) international small-scale showdowns, where you dont fight for yourself, but for your region... the successful players will be compensated with a small prize pool and some wcs points - but representing your region succesfully would bring benefits for your region ( maybe additional prize pool to the regional league or perhaps extra slots for the grand final of the year ) - so the storyline of those smaller international showdowns would really be about regions not players.
I know KR would probably dominate those events, but if the tournament is small enough ( maybe 9-12 players ) - and the regional lock will allow participation with resident (not citizenship) status, there is always that small chance of besting the dominant region for a season - and EU/AM rivarly for the 2nd spot benefits would probably incite some emotions too.
Also, i think maybe there should be more than one time a year where the crowning of best player in the world takes place, so in addition to blizzcon grand gigantic finals, perhaps there should be also second big international "summer champion" event.
edit: that small scale showdown could be even be done in team format as a bo3 each regional team plays each other once in allkill, once in proleague format and if that ties up - a bo3/bo5 ace match
They already said they were getting rid of seasonal finals. People please read.
"We have decided that the season finals will not be continuing in their current form and we’re looking to change how they work in 2014."
That still bit implies some sort of seasonal finals. I just wanted to point on that while i think the frequent all-region meetups are a good idea, i'd prefer much-much different and less "final"-ish format. ( my pardons, if the complete removal has been confirmed later on in the thread )
On October 16 2013 05:56 rename wrote: seasonal finals should be replaced with something else, while the spectatle weekends have been really great, - they kind of have lowered the prestige of regional tournaments more compared to what they were worth on their own.
what that something is, should not overshadow regional accomplishments, but still provide frequent insight into how well different scenes and regions are doing
perhaps several ( 3-4) international small-scale showdowns, where you dont fight for yourself, but for your region... the successful players will be compensated with a small prize pool and some wcs points - but representing your region succesfully would bring benefits for your region ( maybe additional prize pool to the regional league or perhaps extra slots for the grand final of the year ) - so the storyline of those smaller international showdowns would really be about regions not players.
I know KR would probably dominate those events, but if the tournament is small enough ( maybe 9-12 players ) - and the regional lock will allow participation with resident (not citizenship) status, there is always that small chance of besting the dominant region for a season - and EU/AM rivarly for the 2nd spot benefits would probably incite some emotions too.
Also, i think maybe there should be more than one time a year where the crowning of best player in the world takes place, so in addition to blizzcon grand gigantic finals, perhaps there should be also second big international "summer champion" event.
edit: that small scale showdown could be even be done in team format as a bo3 each regional team plays each other once in allkill, once in proleague format and if that ties up - a bo3/bo5 ace match
They already said they were getting rid of seasonal finals. People please read.
"We have decided that the season finals will not be continuing in their current form and we’re looking to change how they work in 2014."
That still bit implies some sort of seasonal finals. I just wanted to point on that while i think the frequent all-region meetups are a good idea, i'd prefer much-much different and less "final"-ish format. ( my pardons, if the complete removal has been confirmed later on in the thread )
Did you read Victor's post? It's under his first bullet on page 4. That was also taken directing from Q and A btw.
Also, there's one person I forgot to address way back.
On October 15 2013 15:22 StarStruck wrote: Yakikorosu,
To me it felt very discombobulated. I'm looking at the pieces of the whole and at the end of the day a lot of it just doesn't make sense when it came to the formatting, branding and the seasons. Finals of finals? You get what I mean. I can see why they would take those out, lol. We need better continuity. I don't like looking at sections. If I had it my way I would have the same players throughout a year. These are your Pro's who will compete for the Cup. More games between the pros more regularly. More kicks at the can. Accredited teams earning slots for their players. All that good stuff. Let them build more stats against one another. Let them build stories together.
I wasn't a huge fan of the Season Finals either, and I agree that there's too much Challenger League, but you can't just select one group of players and say that for the whole year NO ONE ELSE gets to compete in major tournaments. That would completely kill the scene, players would just quit if they fail to make it in rather than wait a whole year to try again.
My preference would be:
Kill Challenger League (except in KR) and replace it with open qualifiers (tying to ladder in some manner is a good idea), but retain the top 16 players each season, not just top 8. Kill Season Finals (except Grand Final at Blizzcon). Use the extra time to have more WCS Premiere League seasons--5 or 6 per year.
Obviously that's not happening, so I'll just sit and hope something cool develops for 2014.
And I also want to thank Kim for being so open and participating on the forums. Please don't let the obligatory flamers and doomsayers get you down.
No it wouldn't because I never told you how many players would be apart of the circuit now did I? It's way beyond the amount of players that would qualify for challenger and the freeze isn't much of a freeze when accredited teams get to give a few of their players pro badges. I figured a lot of things out to keep everyone happy and to make sure teams get the proper exposure. We're not talking about giving players their 15 seconds of fame or in other words two or three kicks at the can either and there is still plenty of opportunity for players to go pro as throughout the year.
On October 16 2013 06:25 StarStruck wrote: I've seen several of these comments over the last few pages. That's not what Kim said at all, lol. That's what we call indirect growth. Any increases in viewership will be marginal at best no matter what changes you make to the format. I'd make the system even leaner because there's still quite a bit going on. 3 Seasons with 3 qualifiers for Challenger/Survivor, Premiere League and the Grand Final not necessarily happening at the same time is still a lot. I'd also think about re-branding the actual Tournament. There's already a lot of negativity associated directly with the WCS as you can see people are quick to jump on it without reading the actual thread. A good way to break the negative connotation is too properly brand it.
i just cannot break away from thinking anything else can be as relavant as viewship
but if i understood you correctly, you mean what kim want is to setup wcs so the viewership within kim's control is maximized under the current setup of the game?
well, in that regards... adjusting format to increase viewship feels so marginal like you said... then i recommend to invest in finding good casters or even spend time training casters
i am, embarrassingly, very much an appearance sucker yes i judge a book by its cover (got a problem? lol) something needs to look good, sound good, and feels smooth just makes audience feel positive consistancy in delivering good presentation (no matter big/small of event) is, obvious to me, the most important part to look at
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You would think the top priority is ultimately growth in viewership therefore the player-base LotV would come into... WCS should be focused on what they are meant to do rather than worry about the masses of opinions that a niche of their revenue base has. If the player-base and viewership increases there will be more WCS prize pool, BlizzCon prize pool, travel to tournaments, league/player housing, new regions, amateur and grassroots level play, regional tournaments/leagues. It is more about what Blizzard can do through WCS to generate interest in Sc2. Even if that means a temporary decrease in WCS activities I hope Blizzard will invest the money into the BEST course of action to increase the player base and viewership of Sc2 eSport related events.
I was surprised "Increased Viewership" wasn't listed because as you've mentioned when the viewership increases so do prize pools and sponsorships teams receive to send their players out to tournaments. Ideally a growing prize pool and expansion of regions would be a sign of a healthy organization, things like in client WCS support, tournament passes that grant access to special skins, fantasy teams, etc. all seem to be missing from blizzards peripheral.
It feels like they don't really understand how they fit into the eSports economy. From the beginning of WCS I felt that this was an overstep from Blizzard to compete with Riot as an emergency. They should have settled for a Premiere league in EU and NA with some form of support/points for GSL/OSL. The Finals wouldn't have such a small prize pool compared to Dota 2 and LoL.
Hope that they can expand into Challenger League and/or Team League next year. Instead they overstepped and made a big sloppy mess that they can't keep funding. Trying to feed everyone, so everyone starved.
WCS KR should be removed. There's no LCS KR because Riot doesn't assume they can do Korean esports better than Koreans.
WCS NA and EU should continue as they are, but only be open to players not living in Korea. Players can choose to compete in one or the other and can't switch mid-year.
Season finals should be removed so that IEM, Dreamhack, Red Bull, etc. weekend LANs get more hype.
Blizzcon should be the top 4 players from OSL/GSL points, top 4 from weekend LAN points, (tier 1/tier 2 tournaments right now) top 4 from WCS EU points, and top 4 from WCS NA points. This will still likely be mostly Koreans, but will probably have a few Korean vs foreigner matchups, which get the most viewers.
I could imagine having some sort of restriction on citizenship, but still allowing a bit of mobility regardless.
However, for anyone playing outside of their designated region, I'd award them half the number of WCS points, or even less, for any of their accomplishments.
Players would then have to make a bet. Do I think I'm good enough to compete with my countrymen? If the answer is yes, then the return-on-investment in WCS points at least is bound to be higher if you stay in your region.
This should also lead to the only Koreans looking abroad being the ones with whom the US and EU players can more easily compete, thus solving the problem once and for all.
Hi Kim! Thanks for this Q&A, I find it really informative and I am really looking forward to seeing what you guys decide to do in 2014
I for one would love to see a residential region lock for 2014 with an exemption made of course for those not in any of the three regions. I also support getting rid of the season finals as well as having only three seasons in total. Saying that, We are going to see a lot less of our favorite players in WCS, I don't know how to you could give more screen time to these players but that would be great ha ha. Bo5's instead maybe? idk.
My ultimate wish list item would be for you guys to create a whole new Asia(Oceania) region for all the players over there but I do realize the difficulties in doing so. The infrastructure may not be there as well as viewership number among other things so your money should probably be invested somewhere else... for now
On October 16 2013 08:19 MarcusWC wrote: Hi Kim! Thanks for this Q&A, I find it really informative and I am really looking forward to seeing what you guys decide to do in 2014
I for one would love to see a residential region lock for 2014 with an exemption made of course for those not in any of the three regions. I also support getting rid of the season finals as well as having only three seasons in total. Saying that, We are going to see a lot less of our favorite players in WCS, I don't know how to you could give more screen time to these players but that would be great ha ha. Bo5's instead maybe? idk.
My ultimate wish list item would be for you guys to create a whole new Asia(Oceania) region for all the players over there but I do realize the difficulties in doing so. The infrastructure may not be there as well as viewership number among other things so your money should probably be invested somewhere else... for now
Anyway, GL and may the force be with you!
It doesn't have to have a $100,000 prizepool per season, nor the same amount of WCS points as the other regions - I think viewership won't be bad if there is a good Chinese cast and it is well-marketed.
I'm really not coming from a dickish place when saying that WCS just does not help but crowds and consumes the existent scene. One more tournament or league is in no way a representation of all let alone what is ideal to be offered by Blizzard toward the end of growing our scene. WCS is a hair-brained contribution which has not surprisingly been muddled even in its own execution. Please make an effective/ideal effort to support our scene. Does it look like WCS season 1 really achieved your goals? Does the scene seem to be better off for this? Be honest with yourselves, because we're already well aware, but it's on you.
this is amazing, but it does bother me that they say the cross region play has been exciting and cause cool match ups. Honestly they haven't made anything that wouldn't be equally enjoyable if it were region locked. It's like their view is "Well they made the best out of our mistake, so it can't be that bad right?" No hate, I love Blizzard completely. That part just didn't sit well with me.
Regarding wanting to adhere to new(er) viewers of the game, I agree with what was discussed over at the latest episode (87) of Inside the Game, in that color-coding spells according to the player's team color would be beneficial to the viewer.
Having it in a slightly weaker tint will make it so that the audience will be able to make out who casts what, but they wouldn't find the colors too distracting or nauseating. Also, limiting this function to observers only will make it so that the players themselves won't be distracted by all the different colors.
Regarding having players stay in a region during the competitive period, I know it's an expensive idea, but I'd like to see something similar to the old GOM house, where visiting players are given a room to stay in and equipment to work with during their tenure (which would be around a few months at most, or up until they lose their challenger league matches after dropping out of premiere). This would work in conjunction with the idea to have them play on the region's server, thus making it so the players who fly in from different regions would contribute to the improvement of the overall skill in the player pool for that specific region's ladder.
Regarding the amount of WCS tournaments, I agree with iNcontroL in that it would be more beneficial to have less tournaments. Blizzard's idea of taking out the regional finals is a good idea in my opinion, as logistics-wise this would allow less expenditure from both the players and the production crew themselves. Taking down the regional finals however means that there will be a lot less money to be won, so I suggest pooling the money you'd have in a regional finals into the regular WCS regional tournaments themselves. Adding money to the regular WCS seasons will make it so that you can increase the overall prize pool and thus allow more distribution on money to be earned by winning, thus making it so that players will have more motivation to stay and fight in Challenger league. Giving monetary prizes to people winning Challenger league qualification tournaments would also entice more players to want to improve their skill level so that they have a better shot at winning.
First off, I actually do like WCS and am really appreciative of all that Blizzard has invested into the SCII e-sports scene. I also think it's awesome that Kim Phan is interacting with TL like this and have absolutely no clue why there's so much complaining about the interview.
When we launched WCS 2013, our main goal was to create a global system that was capable of identifying the undisputed, best StarCraft II player on the planet, and we did this by creating a unified structure for major StarCraft II competition happening in the world.
This is the one thing with WCS I don't quite get or agree with, for two reasons:
1)It seems like strange goal in that I don't particularly see the importance of it, and, given the competitiveness of players at the highest level, I don't think a single tournament can exactly determine that anyways. (Will the winner of Blizzcon be the undisputed best player in the world? Probably not)
2)More importantly, this was the function that GSL Code S has fulfilled in the past. The winner of Code S has been universally recognized as winning not only the most difficult tournament, but winning a tournament that is as close as reasonably possible to the hardest tournament possible at a given time. Perhaps it would be different for someone who comes into the scene with WCS as the main entity, but as someone who is used to a world where Code S is the premier tournament, it is a bit saddening to see GSL lose a bit of its prestige. (less prize pool, top players leaving for AM/EU, rebranding as a qualifier).
For changes, I agree with most of what NovemberstOrm says here:
On October 15 2013 18:57 NovemberstOrm wrote: I think WCS 2014 needs to put more emphasis on the korean scene by: - Letting OSL/GSL run their tournaments - More local development/support for smaller tournaments in korea
General thoughts - Increase prize pools, more spread out prize distribution - Region locking whether that's just through residency or locking players out of a region based their nationality i think the former would be the correct decision IMO. -More content so we can get to know the lesser known talent so storylines can be created early around such players( stuff like what TL is doing is amazing: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=430726 ) - Better scheduling
Blizzard doing player spotlight type things that they can show before WCS broadcasts or during breaks would be amazing. Sharing player's storylines, their struggles and motivations and dreams, with the audience makes the whole scene much more meaningful to watch (Storylines are created primarily through the players, not the tournaments). If you can get people to root for a specific player, then they'll want to follow the player, thus creating more interest in the scene. For me personally, I don't even care about quality/entertainment of gameplay; I just want to see the players that I favour do well.
Also, if region locking does go through, I think it would be cool for Blizzard to support some sort of 'Code B Cup' to give all the players in Korea who are quite skilled, but couldn't make it into Code A, a chance to establish themselves.
Its sad that this thread is kinda dead after a day, despite the fact that Blizzard pointed out reading this and even responded a couple of times and the "What's The Problem" thread is bumped ever 5 minutes since September.
Looks like bitching is more fun than thinking about solutions about one of the "problems".
I'm sorry you were disappointed. I was trying to say more than what you got out of it. I'll try to summarize what we're definitely doing next year:
Three regions (AM, EU, and KR)
Three seasons instead of four to allow us to spread the schedule out
Doing the above will allow us to simplify the format so that it's easier to follow. We want a more linear approach, meaning the qualifiers would take place first, then challenger, then premier league.
Improve the broadcast schedule so that it's more predictable. This would mean having a set schedule for the days each of the WCS regions would broadcast, allowing you to better plan your schedule for following WCS.
Removing season finals in their current form. We want there the be more spotlight on the regional finals and give other tournaments the opportunity to host events very similar to the season finals
For the rest of the changes, we're still in finalizing the decisions with our partners and looking forward to hearing the community feedback.
I think this is a good start. Four seasons was too much and could have killed other important tournaments or bury them. Giving more importance to other tournaments like IEM, DH or ASUS would be really nice too.
The linear approach is nice, if challenger league takes place before premier I think makes people lose interest in challenger. Challenger also should reward a bit more points and money, I think this would be good for players and viewers.
Clarifying schedules also benefits viewers a lot, the WCS homepage is good, but It can improve their information to make more viewers tune in.
Removing season finals is good because now sometimes they feel anticlimatic and they are taking protagonism on regionals.
In my opinion, there is some kind of region lock needed. All regions need their heroes, this benefits better viewerships. If people is watching that every season a korean comes a week to another region and takes the whole tournament, they'll lose interest. Citizenship would be too harsh, but residency should be a must. It's cool having ForGG or MC living in Europe, learning english and participating in WCS EU. But if too much players change regions, specially koreans (they are a step over the rest of the world, obviously), this only hurts WCS EU and WCS America. This means less money for foreign players, foreign teams and also hurts the foreign scene and viewership building, making more difficult to go pro in those regions.
Finally, I think that these changes also need more people playing the game, players are the biggest portion of tournament viewers. Things needed have been written in TL countless times:
·Let players create automated tournaments. This would be even better if you get achievements/rewards if you win X tournaments. ·Let players create games/custom games, letting they name them, ala Brood war. ·Make game entrance regional chat default (can get changed in options). ·Make easier to find chat channels, clans or groups in game. ·Improve 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 modes and maps.
Happy to know you are trying to improve WCS, I hope you keep giving feedback to players and viewers, it's the best way to let us know you care and listen to the community.
On October 16 2013 17:04 USvBleakill wrote: Its sad that this thread is kinda dead after a day, despite the fact that Blizzard pointed out reading this and even responded a couple of times and the "What's The Problem" thread is bumped ever 5 minutes since September.
Looks like bitching is more fun than thinking about solutions about one of the "problems".
It is not really dead, and if you read the whole thread, people were bitching at the start, but they started to make constructive posts when they realized that Kim is in this thread.
And come on, there are a ton of suggestions here, Kim had probably read them all already, we have to wait and see if they will listen and what will be changed.
On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote: I'm sorry you were disappointed. I was trying to say more than what you got out of it. I'll try to summarize what we're definitely doing next year:
Three regions (AM, EU, and KR) Three seasons instead of four to allow us to spread the schedule out Doing the above will allow us to simplify the format so that it's easier to follow. We want a more linear approach, meaning the qualifiers would take place first, then challenger, then premier league. Improve the broadcast schedule so that it's more predictable. This would mean having a set schedule for the days each of the WCS regions would broadcast, allowing you to better plan your schedule for following WCS. Removing season finals in their current form. We want there the be more spotlight on the regional finals and give other tournaments the opportunity to host events very similar to the season finals
We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
Kimaphan this will be a long post but I would like to share my opinion on your points I have quoted above. As you will see I love Starcraft and WCS 2013 was a good first step to creating a continuing legacy for this game. However it's become evident we need some changes and I am thankful Blizzard is open to community suggestions - great to see!
1. Scrap the Season finals It never made sense to me to give more money and WCS points to the players that had just won them. I think it's a good step removing these. This gives more importance to regional finals and frees up a bit of time for events outside of WCS. There will also be more of a build up to one big yearly event (Global finals) similar to how The International operates in Dota 2. Global finals should be the flagship event to point to when talking to people who are new to SC2.
2. Scrap Challenger League (in it's current format) I've been following Starcraft intimately for ~ 6 years and even I find the format very clunky and a little confusing. Which matches are worth watching? Some seem almost irrelevant when the loser just gets another chance in groups. If we want to build excitement and tension (the way we have with people feverishly calculating players chances at getting into Blizzcon this year) then make every broadcast of matches important. We want the audience to know exactly what the stakes are and why. If we have a Challenger system where you're either in or you're out this allows every match to be important. And for the players too they know exactly when to reach their peak performance and not have to do so as frequently with all these different Challenger matches being played. Therefore I propose having Challenger as a group stage only, a la GSL Up/Down. Then just have straight qualifers which will serve as your bracket stage.
Such a system could look like this (excuse my horrendous paint skills):
This image may look confusing but that's just my terrible formatting. It's actually very simple compared to the current system.
- 4 Open Qualifers with seeding based on 2014 WCS points (For Season 1 qualifers we could either seed in 2013 Season 3 Challenger leaguers at various levels or seed in based on total 2013 WCS points). This rewards previous good finishes in qualifiers or WCS main events. And means players that have talent and can gain WCS points at non-WCS events have a better shot of getting through the next qualifiers. - Each Open Qualifer grants 4 spots to Challenger Up Down meaning 16 new players are cycled in each Season (only 8 at present). - Players can sign up for as many qualifers as they wish. This helps reduce variance of open bracket format. - Challenger Up Down is composed of 8 groups of 5 players: 2 from Premier Ro32, 1 from Premier Ro16 and 2 from Open Qualifers. - 3 players advance from each group to Premier. 2 players must requalify next season (16 out). - With 40 players in Challenger Up Down plus 8 returning Premier League players the ecosystem supports 48 players per region each season (same as current).
Another benefit is that every season starts with qualifers then Up Down then Premier league and finshes at a proper spot with the Premier League final. It makes no sence to finish a season with challenger league as they do at present. There will be a much clearer delineation between seasons.
Now, we are supporting the same number of players per season but with money saved from removing the Season finals and Challenger league we can support each player a hell of a lot more. Taking current premier prizepool of $100,000 plus Season finals money of $75,000 (it's $150,000 but split it between Europe and America) + Season finals travel costs of players + it's production costs (plus Challenger league prizepool of $4,800) we might have between $250,000-$300,000 per region per Season. An example Distribution could look like this:
[RightClick -> View Image to see full image] *mistake - should have 9-16th under qualifer not 16-32nd
Couple of things to note..
- Premier league Ro16 losers shouldn't need an 'extra' chance like they get in the current Challenger league. Their reward for finishing higher is more cash + more WCS points. - The reason 1st/2nd/3rd still have money + WCS points is so the players have an incentive to win every match in Up Down. There will be no meaningless matches like sometimes occurs for one player in GSL Up Down, so less chance of rigging a loss to your friend/teammate etc.
3. Scheduling With a more streamlined WCS system and fewer WCS matches then it will be a lot easier to have regular scheduling. This is obviously beneficial for hosting non-WCS tournaments but I believe it will also be beneficial for the viewer to have a regular WCS schedule. People will know exactly when to tune in without searching calendars etc... I've made a quick example mock up schedule:
This example schedule has a full season at 14 weeks including season break, or if you combined the finals into a single week as WCS Europe does currently then you could fit a season into 10 weeks. But, at the same time this schedule leaves Mon/Tues free for e.g. Team Leagues to be scheduled on. Also there are week long breaks between stages which gives ample opportunity for scheduling other tournies.
4. Region Locking Others have covered this in a lot of depth already. Basically I feel the regions should have a residential region lock (but allowing players who don't have their own WCS region). Players should commit to live in the region they are competing in for at least the duration of the season. I don't think you should have to commit for the whole year. E.g. a Korean can move to US mid-year and compete in all four of the next season's open qualifiers to try and make Challenger.
5. Korea You'll notice I haven't mentioned Korea in any of my previous points. Others have covered the situation pretty well but basically Korea is suffering the most under the current WCS system. And with region locking they will suffer more. What I would like to see for Korea is
- Autonomy to run their own leagues, GSL and OSL. They can decide between them which players to send to the Global finals at the end of the year. - More iterations of GSL/OSL. 3 each per year sounds about right. Assuming a system similar to current GSL, across both leagues they should be able to financially support close to 100 players per season (of course there will be overlap with some players playing both leagues). Think of it like the old MSL/OSL individual leagues running concurrently. - More money to support this model. With a doubling of leagues in Korea from 3 to 6 we would roughly need to double the support. - A combined proleague. The GSTL is almost farcical with how few teams there are, and Kespa league is dimished also. I would like to see all remaining teams combined into one Korean Teamleague. Matches can alternate between studios.
6. Miscellaneous Points - Blizzard should support more regional events, e.g SEA, China, considering that they have denied the possibility of additional WCS regions. - Blizzard should host a few fun tournaments with a prizepool. E.g. 2v2 or popular custom maps. - To go back to the original points: ... what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Yes Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? No Support player travel to tournament events? No League/player housing? Not yet but start looking into it. Expanding to new regions? Not yet but start looking into it. Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Yes Regional tournaments/leagues? Yes
7. Other possibilites for 2015 and beyond - A European teamleague (e.g. Acer Teamstory Cup), an American teamleague (e.g. SC2L) and a Korean Teamleague, but.... region locked
tldr In conclusion: - I believe by scrapping the Season finals and Challenger leagues Blizzard can invest a roughly similar amount as they did into America and Europe in 2013 but with this same money greatly increase support of American and European players. - To 'save' the Korean scene Blizzard will need to invest roughly double what they did into Korea this year, especially assuming some kind of region locking.
Just as my opinion i think we need to Rip Sean Plott from his current job and make him your consultant as to what will be a good course of action. The guy has been around forever he has no true Bias except that he loves starcraft and he would love nothing more than to see it succeed There is my opinion
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote: "we're looking to" "we're planning to" "we're still evaluating" "we will put more thought into" ...just, ugh.
I see what you say, but is it not a good quality to carefully examine before acting and setting text in stone?
This is what they can say for now. It is good to deeply analyse before acting.
In order to get the message out about SC2 in mainstream media and at the same time really show the global outreach of SC2 I think I national team tournament would be a really nice addition. It could be held once a year for example and it could broadly follow the match system that Davis Cup in tennis is using with two 1v1 and one 2v2 (all Bo3). A team can consist of 2-4 players, allowing for a specialized 2v2 team. First two 1v1 are played, followed by the 2v2 and then the second round of 1v1 are played, swapping opponents. First to 3 victories wins.
World group (premier league): Contains the world's best 16 national teams. The current champion and runner up receive top seed and the other teams' ranking is based on previous performance. Direct elimination and the loser teams in the first round has to play a play off against teams from Group 1 (challenger league).
Group 1 is divided in the different regional zones: America, Europe+Africa and Asia+Oceania. This group contain 24 national teams and they play a direct elimination as well, but only within its region. The national teams from America that lost the first round in the World group would qualify against the teams from Group1 America, EU vs EU and AA vs AA.
If Group 1 gets filled, Group 2 (qualification) is established with 32 national teams and so on.
The format would allow for online competition, except for the World group finals.
Would there be enough teams? For sure! In premier league 2013 we have seen the following 26 countries represented already (in alphabetical order unless I screwed it up):
Argentina Australia Austria Belgium Canada Chile China Denmark Finland France Germany Mexico The Netherlands Norway Peru Poland Russia Serbia Slovenia South Korea Spain Sweden Taiwan U.K. Ukraine USA
Challenger league and qualifications have show a number of additional potential country representatives. Let the players put on the national team sweater and represent their country at least once a year!
EDIT: oh, and throw in a few WCS points for the participants to promote the event as well
On October 16 2013 08:55 Lumi wrote: I'm really not coming from a dickish place when saying that WCS just does not help but crowds and consumes the existent scene. One more tournament or league is in no way a representation of all let alone what is ideal to be offered by Blizzard toward the end of growing our scene. WCS is a hair-brained contribution which has not surprisingly been muddled even in its own execution. Please make an effective/ideal effort to support our scene. Does it look like WCS season 1 really achieved your goals? Does the scene seem to be better off for this? Be honest with yourselves, because we're already well aware, but it's on you.
Did you even read the article?
One of the most important notes was:
* Increase global viewership and reach to make SCII more popular and help grow the SCII community
* Create a unified storyline for professional competition
* Identify the top SCII players in the world by establishing a clear global ranking system
* Simplify the system by making it easier for pros and viewers to participate and follow professional StarCraft wherever they are in the world.
How much more could you possibly miss the point here? Creating a unified storyline for professional competition is the best direction the community could take. I didn't watch BW. I came into the scene when I happened to see SC2 on at MLG DC (right after launch). The Starcraft scene is remarkably daunting to get into, from the outside. "Oh there's a tournament. Surely these are the best players in the world." "Oh, there's like 100 other tournaments. I guess GSL is supposed to be the best... but then the GSL champion loses in a lesser tournament, is he still the best player? Where are the rankings for this BS?".
I know a lot of you old crotchety BW fans want to keep everything the neat little clique you had going, but that's not going to grow the scene. Having a GSL-only scene and "fuck foreigners, they suck" does nothing. There needs to be a unified ranking system, a stable, easily followable story (Current WCS really helps, but with better communication of current brackets and schedule), and probably more team support. It is FAR easier to track a team than any one of two hundred top players.
On October 16 2013 22:03 BaneRiders wrote: In order to get the message out about SC2 in mainstream media and at the same time really show the global outreach of SC2 I think I national team tournament would be a really nice addition. It could be held once a year for example and it could broadly follow the match system that Davis Cup in tennis is using with two 1v1 and one 2v2 (all Bo3). A team can consist of 2-4 players, allowing for a specialized 2v2 team. First two 1v1 are played, followed by the 2v2 and then the second round of 1v1 are played, swapping opponents. First to 3 victories wins.
World group (premier league): Contains the world's best 16 national teams. The current champion and runner up receive top seed and the other teams' ranking is based on previous performance. Direct elimination and the loser teams in the first round has to play a play off against teams from Group 1 (challenger league).
Group 1 is divided in the different regional zones: America, Europe+Africa and Asia+Oceania. This group contain 24 national teams and they play a direct elimination as well, but only within its region. The national teams from America that lost the first round in the World group would qualify against the teams from Group1 America, EU vs EU and AA vs AA.
If Group 1 gets filled, Group 2 (qualification) is established with 32 national teams and so on.
The format would allow for online competition, except for the World group finals.
Would there be enough teams? For sure! In premier league 2013 we have seen the following 26 countries represented already (in alphabetical order unless I screwed it up):
Argentina Australia Austria Belgium Canada Chile China Denmark Finland France Germany Mexico The Netherlands Norway Peru Poland Russia Serbia Slovenia South Korea Spain Sweden Taiwan U.K. Ukraine USA
Challenger league and qualifications have show a number of additional potential country representatives. Let the players put on the national team sweater and represent their country at least once a year!
EDIT: oh, and throw in a few WCS points for the participants to promote the event as well
Yeah agree with you. I want so much to see how Finland beats Sweden >:D
But to the point. Yes I would watch nation vs nation.
Make it a league format with 8 players in each group. Top 2 goes into round of 8. Players have to reside in region for two weeks while their group is played. Everything offline gogo!
@ThunderGod I didnt read all but your "2014 Year Planner" is pretty bad for players. Too many fridays and saturdays games, this means that too many players must have forfeit/decline weekends tournaments like DH, IEM, etc. And too long, one season should takes 4 months? I prefer 3 months-> one month break (in this time DH, IEM, etc) -> next season for another 3 months....
Only Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and sometimes Mondays like they are doing this wcs.
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote: "we're looking to"
"we're planning to"
"we're still evaluating"
"we will put more thought into"
...just, ugh.
the road to hell is paved with good intentions. bottom line is .. SC2 esports is a money losing operation and the real question is.. how much is Blizzard will to sink into the abyss in the name of "keeping the brand strong so that LotV sales are strong".
because this is really what its all about ... selling boxed copies of LotV.
people should also realize that "Blizzard's best people" are working on far more lucrative projects. SC2 eSports essentially gets the "Blizzard B-team".
with Kotick more fully in charge of ATVI look for some cost cutting to go on... its already happening at Blizzcon.. no band.. no comedian.. etc.
the days where the road of Blizzard's campus being paved with gold are over... WoW no longer has 12 million subs.
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote: "we're looking to"
"we're planning to"
"we're still evaluating"
"we will put more thought into"
...just, ugh.
the road to hell is paved with good intentions. bottom line is .. SC2 esports is a money losing operation and the real question is.. how much is Blizzard will to sink into the abyss in the name of "keeping the brand strong so that LotV sales are strong".
because this is really what its all about ... selling boxed copies of LotV.
people should also realize that "Blizzard's best people" are working on far more lucrative projects. SC2 eSports essentially gets the "Blizzard B-team".
with Kotick more fully in charge of ATVI look for some cost cutting to go on... its already happening at Blizzcon.. no band.. no comedian.. etc.
the days where the road of Blizzard's campus being paved with gold are over... WoW no longer has 12 million subs.
I don't necessarily think no band or comedian at blizzcon is necessarily cost cutting. I was always confused about why they had either of those in the first place. I don't personally think they're a draw, but of course I've never been so maybe they're more of a benefit than I'm aware.
As for sc2 esports being handled by blizzard's b-team, wasn't Kim hired specifically for this job? Something tells me creating a job and cost cutting are kind of opposites. Additionally, I assure you that "blizzard's best" esports people are working on sc2, and frankly I wouldn't want blizzard's best 3d modelers to be working on this particular issue at all. Most industries don't work in terms of tiers, you don't just have a generic "A-team" that handles all of the "Important" shit.
I agree that this is most likely meant to increase sales, that's what any business is meant to do and to think anything but positively about a company that is beginning to cater to the fans and generate sales in a way that we want is kind of insulting to them. There are plenty of other ways to generate interest, they're doing something that benefits us, not just makes us recognize the brand.
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote: "we're looking to"
"we're planning to"
"we're still evaluating"
"we will put more thought into"
...just, ugh.
the road to hell is paved with good intentions. bottom line is .. SC2 esports is a money losing operation and the real question is.. how much is Blizzard will to sink into the abyss in the name of "keeping the brand strong so that LotV sales are strong".
because this is really what its all about ... selling boxed copies of LotV.
people should also realize that "Blizzard's best people" are working on far more lucrative projects. SC2 eSports essentially gets the "Blizzard B-team".
with Kotick more fully in charge of ATVI look for some cost cutting to go on... its already happening at Blizzcon.. no band.. no comedian.. etc.
the days where the road of Blizzard's campus being paved with gold are over... WoW no longer has 12 million subs.
I don't necessarily think no band or comedian at blizzcon is necessarily cost cutting. I was always confused about why they had either of those in the first place. I don't personally think they're a draw, but of course I've never been so maybe they're more of a benefit than I'm aware.
As for sc2 esports being handled by blizzard's b-team, wasn't Kim hired specifically for this job? Something tells me creating a job and cost cutting are kind of opposites. Additionally, I assure you that "blizzard's best" esports people are working on sc2, and frankly I wouldn't want blizzard's best 3d modelers to be working on this particular issue at all. Most industries don't work in terms of tiers, you don't just have a generic "A-team" that handles all of the "Important" shit.
I agree that this is most likely meant to increase sales, that's what any business is meant to do and to think anything but positively about a company that is beginning to cater to the fans and generate sales in a way that we want is kind of insulting to them. There are plenty of other ways to generate interest, they're doing something that benefits us, not just makes us recognize the brand.
the myriad of very simple, fundamental problems with WCS 2013 is a solid indicator that Blizzard's best people are focused on issues other than WCS 2013.
Blizzard's best people ain't that dumb.
of course, in Blizzard's messaging they always claim "WCS 2014 is very important". they can't say otherwise.
I don't think anyone wants blizzard NOT to make money. Me as the consumer am more than happy to help a company prosper and get my support of money if they make a good product and support it....
to clarify, i'm ecstatic with Blizzard's level of support for SC2.
No other RTS game gets 1/1000 this level of support. its just that in reading the thread u get the feeling some people really believed Blizzard when they said "by numbers SC is bigger than the NHL".
WCS 2014 won't be anything near as good as the NHL.
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote: "we're looking to"
"we're planning to"
"we're still evaluating"
"we will put more thought into"
...just, ugh.
the road to hell is paved with good intentions. bottom line is .. SC2 esports is a money losing operation and the real question is.. how much is Blizzard will to sink into the abyss in the name of "keeping the brand strong so that LotV sales are strong".
because this is really what its all about ... selling boxed copies of LotV.
people should also realize that "Blizzard's best people" are working on far more lucrative projects. SC2 eSports essentially gets the "Blizzard B-team".
with Kotick more fully in charge of ATVI look for some cost cutting to go on... its already happening at Blizzcon.. no band.. no comedian.. etc.
the days where the road of Blizzard's campus being paved with gold are over... WoW no longer has 12 million subs.
[n]As for sc2 esports being handled by blizzard's b-team, wasn't Kim hired specifically for this job? Something tells me creating a job and cost cutting are kind of opposites. Additionally, I assure you that "blizzard's best" esports people are working on sc2, and frankly I wouldn't want blizzard's best 3d modelers to be working on this particular issue at all. Most industries don't work in terms of tiers, you don't just have a generic "A-team" that handles all of the "Important" shit.[/n]
I recall that for the longest time Blizzard kept siphoning off experienced WoW developers towards Titan. It seems obvious to me that once you go from creating to maintaining a product you scale down your ambitions and you move the important people to other projects. By all accounts Starcraft 2 multiplayer is not a priority for Blizzard, it adequately explains how since 2010 we have gotten minor improvements to battle.net, a few new units and a balance change every few months.
It's time we stop treating regions the same, pretending that AM=EU=KR. Fact of the matter is, you guys FORCED koreans to go to different leagues when you made the prize and point pool to be the same. Of course players will jump ship to go to the easier leagues. Duh! Let's use the football example again to explain how this could easily be fixed without even touching region lock (although I do support region lock to a certain extent).
Split the prize pool something like
Korea: 50% Europe: 30% America: 20%
To simplify with an example, blizzard spent $450,000 on each season premier+finals last year with the timeline for 4, so the new revised timeline with 3 for the whole year, that's about $600,000 per season. Let's split the money around:
Korea: $300,000 Europe: $175,000 America: $125,00
Play around with the numbers here and there using excel, you can get a pretty good prize pool split for those percentages. Here's what less than 10 minutes in excel came up with. Please note that this is obviously not the "ideal" split or whatever, it's just used for a general idea of what a bigger prize pool split across more players differently per region would look like. I split 3rd and 4th, as not only does that create an extra fun match, but also I've always hated the idea of not having a 3rd/4th placement match/different in price pool...
note: I've been messing with the numbers outside of excel so they may not add up perfectly, but you get the picture lol
You tell me this wouldn't automatically force some koreans to want to stay in korea? Sure, the other leagues are "easier", but the prize pool is smaller, so the benefits aren't ALL there. A top korean would look at this split and say "well I could go to america and win ez money, but damn, that's a 30K difference in first place...". It would automatically fix most of the region lock problems for top koreans. I guarantee at least the likes of Taeja, Jaedong, Mvp, etc would go play in korea, while other great koreans in foreign teams (ForGG, Revival, duckdeok, Heart, etc) that might not break premier in KR would stick around in foreign lands, still increasing the overall skill of AM/EU, but not dominating it.
On the flipside, if the minigun's of america and grubby's of europe complain "why does my 9th spot only get me 2500 when 9th in korea is 6500", then I simply say "well go to korea and earn 9th then". I'm fine with not letting koreans flood the foreign events, but don't expect to keep the best players out AND make just as much money. That's not "fair" or "good for the scene", that's just plain UNFAIR. From my example, the NA prize pool pretty much stays the same (It's actually better tbh), while the extra money from not having seasonal finals gets funneled partially into europe and mostly into korea. All fair imo.
To further this "league difference", why don't we make points seeding to blizzcon be competed with within each league? For example, instead of just awarding the same amount of points to every league and say "whoever has the most comes to blizzcon", why don't we implement a "Champion's League" style of seeding, where each region has a number of allowed seeds. Simplest would of course be
Korea: 8 seeds Europe: 4 seeds America: 4 seeds
This idea I'm not as sure with, so it could be tweeked of course, along with playing with the region locking. I feel this might segregate the regions a bit too much, although even in joint events (DH, IEM, etc), there would still be incentive for all players from different regions to fight each other for points, just not as direct. Leave blizzcon as is, we like seeing pimps from all over fight each other. Would love to hear some opinions on this, especially counter points, as to this day I still havn't come to terms with the fact that Korea got shafted so hard on $$$ and points.
Other than that, just more tournaments really. The foreign scene I feel is pretty good with Dreamhack, IEM, MLG, HSC, ASUS, etc etc, but we definitely need more korean tournaments. Going from liek 5-6 GSLs + OSL per year to only 3 tournaments is going to kill the scene, no matter how big the prize pool is.
tl;dr: Funnel the extra money from no more seasonal finals partially into europe and mostly into korea, and have more korean events outside of WCS. Would love to hear a response to this from kimaphan.
I really like this post, and i think it would be a very good idea lower prize pools in EU and NA so that Koreans will stay in Korea, or maybe just transfer some cash from NA to Korea since it would appear that NA has a harder time than EU. I also really like the idea of SC2 multiplayer being F2P, even though we would have to accept that the overall douche level would go up aswell.
The biggest problem for SC2 right now, i believe, is that Blizzard is afraid of making big changes. This became pretty obvious with HotS that barely made a difference to most of the match-ups. I understand that you have to be careful to make big changes to a game that people make a living off, but on the flip side it would appear that Riot has been doing this with great succes.
On October 17 2013 04:40 Grumbels wrote: I recall that for the longest time Blizzard kept siphoning off experienced WoW developers towards Titan. It seems obvious to me that once you go from creating to maintaining a product you scale down your ambitions and you move the important people to other projects. By all accounts Starcraft 2 multiplayer is not a priority for Blizzard,
and map hackers run amok.
back on topic.. i think WCS 2014 will end up being about as good as WCS 2013.. with a string of successes and failures as was the case with WCS 2013..
over all prize money will go down in 2014 (including WCS and all other events combined)... so it doesnt much matter to pros how much they shuffle stuff around.
The IGN/IPL purchase had a great start and seemed to be going somewhere but then it became WCS Highlight channel. Season 1 had some great recaps and overviews that could get people interesting in catching the big games.
ESL and OGN/GOM have the production at a good quality, but WCS AM is a joke. The set is poor looking, the casters are uninteresting and talk like they are not even watching the game (Gretorp goes on about Jaedong going into Muta for 2 mins while the entire 2 minutes it was clear it was going 1/1 Roaches. Among many other examples.) And the production is not that great overall. No analysis desk/screen. So much dead space. The production values need to be on par across all 3 regions not just 2 of 3. MLG seemed to be taking good steps into post game replay and analysis and other improvements along with hosting their own qualifiers... then got forced into WCS and now are barely part of the scene. I am so scared how poor Season 3 finals production is going to be that it may turn people off from watching future SC2.
Please bring some of that effort into production that you showed in early 2013.
@Sufinsil Bro you are right on the money with this one.... We all know WCS AM in general doesn't get a whole lot of attention but atleast make it look better and get some good casters. Heck I would be willing to host some which would be better than what we have now if they are willing to have it in Tampa FL
EDIT: (Hint Hint I'm cheap labor and I do a good job Pm if you want me
I think it would be fair to have four regions: 2 Korean "regions" (one hosted by GSL, one hosted by OSL which run concurrently)... then America and Europe.
It might give a better incentive for Korean players to stay in Korea, plus it would give each of the organisations of GomTV and OngameNet more authority over their tournaments.
Somehow, I just remembered that somebody proposed special treatment for Korean players on "non-Korean" teams (I think it was in one of the two Korean articles based on rumors). I certainly hope that this will not be the case out of two reasons: 1) First you got to define what a "non-Korean team" is, which isn't that clear in my opinion. For example some people regards certain teams as non-Korean team, while I regard them as a team of solid, good Korean players with maybe some non-Koreans for decoration purposes. 2) Giving the teams so much leeway gives me the impression that blizzard is somehow relying on them to advance the scene. However, while each team definitely benefits from a good scene, they have their own success as top priority first and foremost (and who blames them?).
Looks like we'll have to wait until Blizzcon to see the specifics! This is one of those things where Blizzard talks out to appease the ravenous hunger of the community, I guess ^^.
So...as I have decided to drop off my 2 cents here...
There has been nothing but negativity thrown at Blizzard since day 1 of the WoL release (and before I'm sure).
There is not enough enjoyment of what is. There is not enough realizing that it's not what "I" want, so I will deal with it or walk away.
There is far too much armchair executives constantly critiquing what Blizzard and tournament organizers are doing as not good enough.
I feel there is really no place for me, as someone who wants to enjoy the game, the strategy, the ladder, and the esports matches to go and be part of or read discussion that is enjoyable. This doesn't mean everyone should always agree or be positive, but the community is soiled with an overflow of negativity, and it's always been that way.
I love watching tournaments, I love watching Meta, I love playing ladder, but associating with the SC2 community outside of these specific things always seems to be a bitch fest - I am guilty of this in the past and I have moved on and still continue to enjoy the game. I just really wonder how I can come back here randomly and it's *still* always the same thing.
It will be nice when all of the naysayers finally move on and we are left with a community that enjoys SC2 for what it is rather than what they wish it was, I don't care how big or small the viewership is at that point.
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote: "we're looking to"
"we're planning to"
"we're still evaluating"
"we will put more thought into"
...just, ugh.
the road to hell is paved with good intentions. bottom line is .. SC2 esports is a money losing operation and the real question is.. how much is Blizzard will to sink into the abyss in the name of "keeping the brand strong so that LotV sales are strong".
because this is really what its all about ... selling boxed copies of LotV.
people should also realize that "Blizzard's best people" are working on far more lucrative projects. SC2 eSports essentially gets the "Blizzard B-team".
with Kotick more fully in charge of ATVI look for some cost cutting to go on... its already happening at Blizzcon.. no band.. no comedian.. etc.
the days where the road of Blizzard's campus being paved with gold are over... WoW no longer has 12 million subs.
[n]As for sc2 esports being handled by blizzard's b-team, wasn't Kim hired specifically for this job? Something tells me creating a job and cost cutting are kind of opposites. Additionally, I assure you that "blizzard's best" esports people are working on sc2, and frankly I wouldn't want blizzard's best 3d modelers to be working on this particular issue at all. Most industries don't work in terms of tiers, you don't just have a generic "A-team" that handles all of the "Important" shit.[/n]
I recall that for the longest time Blizzard kept siphoning off experienced WoW developers towards Titan. It seems obvious to me that once you go from creating to maintaining a product you scale down your ambitions and you move the important people to other projects. By all accounts Starcraft 2 multiplayer is not a priority for Blizzard, it adequately explains how since 2010 we have gotten minor improvements to battle.net, a few new units and a balance change every few months.
That doesn't mean they're your a team, that means they're better at creating content. Once the content's created, there's no reason to keep them there if you have something else they can be put on. For instance I'm considerably better at continuing work that someone else has created than I am at creating work itself. But my ability to continue someone else's work is a lot better than a person who would focus on creating content would be. Doesn't mean they're better than I am, just that they're more useful at a different point than I am, and I'm more useful at another point than they are.
On October 17 2013 08:05 Treemonkeys wrote: I feel there is really no place for me, as someone who wants to enjoy the game, the strategy, the ladder, and the esports matches to go and be part of or read discussion that is enjoyable. This doesn't mean everyone should always agree or be positive, but the community is soiled with an overflow of negativity, and it's always been that way.
The minority who are unhappy come to bitch on the forums. The majority who are happy are silent (you are an exception). It makes the community seem overly negative.
On October 17 2013 08:05 Treemonkeys wrote: I feel there is really no place for me, as someone who wants to enjoy the game, the strategy, the ladder, and the esports matches to go and be part of or read discussion that is enjoyable. This doesn't mean everyone should always agree or be positive, but the community is soiled with an overflow of negativity, and it's always been that way.
The minority who are unhappy come to bitch on the forums. The majority who are happy are silent (you are an exception). It makes the community seem overly negative.
The TL SC2 community is just a small part of the overall sc2 community. I'm sure you know that though.
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote: "we're looking to"
"we're planning to"
"we're still evaluating"
"we will put more thought into"
...just, ugh.
exact my feeling when i was reading through wall of text..
what is the meaning of Q & A session when it is so formal and has no real content at all (imo)
I want sc2 to be successful, no hating Blizzard at and I am very aware that this is much harder issue to deal with then Dota or LoL, but still everyone know that Blizzard can do better then this. I am getting feeling that Blizzard employees dont feel passionate about sc2 scene at all. David Kim? Dustin Browder? i am not sure...
If you actually read it and Kimphan's responses to questions you would understand they want the communities feedback on what they should do better, while they have given us what they want to do in 2014 with WCS.
On October 15 2013 09:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
No more seasonal finals
Three seasons instead of four
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
On October 17 2013 23:54 Littlesheep wrote: I think WCS could be a really cool system that would help foreign teams get exposure and possibly cause some new foreign teams to emerge.
That is, if it really gets region locked.
and I keep telling you people the same shit, but it doesn't seem to register through your heads. I don't blame you for not wanting to read 29+ pages of content trying to filter the good from the bad and it's amazing that Duran's regurgitated dribble gets more attention than a thread that has a Blizzard employee actually reading and responding to directly. You would think this thread would be double in size, but that isn't the case now is it? It gets tedious after a while hearing people ramble about the same old shit without bringing something new to the table.
If you guys truly want another WCG I would tread very carefully. The WCG already has a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths and likewise that's why they get very little promotion around these parts. That's why you pretty much have to find the WCG for yourself on Twitch and the amount of viewers for it for the last few years has been abysmal. Barely anyone paid attention when CombatEx advanced for Canada last year and the numbers for the Finals in China were just as bad for many reasons. Samsung, what the heck are you doing with your marketing dollars if you aren't going to try and give the Event more global exposure? It's as if they've thrown in the towel and are only doing because it's tradition. Then again some people could argue they're in tablet/smartphone/all sorts of other gadgets business and that's why their selection is where it's at today and the WCG is meant to frame those apps/games that use their devices. Makes sense from their side of the business, but I digress.
We want to make sure that each scene can grow and develop at the same time. Something Blizzard sort of understood from the beginning. Personally I would use the leave no player behind approach. Something Riot could even learn to do better. For more info read Starstruck's fancy take on the C9/Fnatic escapades at World's and what the players had to say (for reference all those posts are in this thread). To do this we have to make sure the foreigners and Koreans alike get in as many repetitions as possible against one another. I said it not once; not twice; not thrice. Coincidentally, no more 2-3 kicks at the can (as in 2-3 shots) and your out. Let's make a season of it. 20 appearances at Majors is better than one appearance where a player loses in 2 sets. We want a bigger sample size and this way the player's learn more from experience. Why you think all those Pro League players are well versed? It's because you'll keep seeing them play even if they're in a slump or take a few losses:
"Hey Shooter Girl. I'll take the tray."
On another note I'm completely against regional servers (note: we're talking about gateways; not prelims to some tournament). Never liked the concept yet I see more and more developers making it common practice to have servers for each region because of latency and lag issues-- they want to make things more manageable and look at how many people are playing video games these days (this goes for everything from MOBAs to MMOs). It's hard to blame them. Take Nexon's Dragon Nest for example, where they have a population of several thousand players at any given time (that's their highest population atm btw) yet the servers are still cancerous with lag and all the bots, et la. Lags worse in Vindictus and the population is half of Dragon Nest yet the bots cause more problems! Go figure! F2P games cannot have nice things.
It's as if we took a step backward over the last six years (or perhaps the developers thought we leapt too far forward in the late 90s and early millennium and thought we needed to take a step backward). Or perhaps the World Wide Web got so big as more people got the ability to access it and thought we needed to cut access and set boundaries, hm! If you wanted to play on the Korean servers for many games it's always been a bitch to bypass, but I digress. I remember playing Lineage with my Korean friends and lag was never an issue. The servers would be fine but that has more to do with the server population back then (still talking about the same numbers for Dragon Nest in NA LMFAO). Still the SC:BW B.Net servers would have around 100K people online at any given time back then. It's 2013. We should have the technology and infrastructure to make sure players can play with any other player from any other region without having to worry about latency & lag. We had plenty of ways to get around it back then with third party programs like Hamachi . It sucks that we don't have ways to get around this now. If I want to play with my friend F91 from China. I should be able to do so.
On October 17 2013 08:05 Treemonkeys wrote: I feel there is really no place for me, as someone who wants to enjoy the game, the strategy, the ladder, and the esports matches to go and be part of or read discussion that is enjoyable. This doesn't mean everyone should always agree or be positive, but the community is soiled with an overflow of negativity, and it's always been that way.
The minority who are unhappy come to bitch on the forums. The majority who are happy are silent (you are an exception). It makes the community seem overly negative.
The TL SC2 community is just a small part of the overall sc2 community. I'm sure you know that though.
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote: "we're looking to"
"we're planning to"
"we're still evaluating"
"we will put more thought into"
...just, ugh.
exact my feeling when i was reading through wall of text..
what is the meaning of Q & A session when it is so formal and has no real content at all (imo)
I want sc2 to be successful, no hating Blizzard at and I am very aware that this is much harder issue to deal with then Dota or LoL, but still everyone know that Blizzard can do better then this. I am getting feeling that Blizzard employees dont feel passionate about sc2 scene at all. David Kim? Dustin Browder? i am not sure...
If you actually read it and Kimphan's responses to questions you would understand they want the communities feedback on what they should do better, while they have given us what they want to do in 2014 with WCS.
Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
Possibly Ro32 live
Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
Some way to involve teams
Rethinking the point system
More linear system and reworking Challenger League
These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.
Just thought those statements should be featured on every upcoming site of this thread.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the WCG format. WCG was great at one point in time. They even had their own anti hack at one point. Their admins actually handled things as well as you could ask for/hope for. But... there simply wasn't enough money to be bad in WCG. People were training like all year round for this one event, where the US finals might have been 4k for first place. The lack of money involved started to show itself most prominently in how the admins started handling things. If you could get an admin to even show up, it was a lucky day. If your opponent didn't show up himself and claimed a walkover, over you, you'd be very lucky to even be able to talk to someone about it, let alone have it be resolved. There is no limit of bad things one could say about WCG admins after a certain year. They were nothing short of a disgrace.
The WCG format is amazing for foreigners. If you're a top 10 player in the US, you would probably always be the best player in the Philippines. There's always going to be countries/regions that are easier. You have to get over that and realize it's needed for the growth of the foreign scene. Nothing gets more viewers than the Olympics. It's like debating what shape a car tire should be. I just don't know about the current shape... does it work? Nah, I can't have that shape... that wouldn't be politically correct. It's silly.
On October 17 2013 23:54 Littlesheep wrote: I think WCS could be a really cool system that would help foreign teams get exposure and possibly cause some new foreign teams to emerge.
That is, if it really gets region locked.
and I keep telling you people the same shit, but it doesn't seem to register through your heads. I don't blame you for not wanting to read 29+ pages of content trying to filter the good from the bad and it's amazing that Duran's regurgitated dribble gets more attention than a thread that has a Blizzard employee actually reading and responding to directly. You would think this thread would be double in size, but that isn't the case now is it? It gets tedious after a while hearing people ramble about the same old shit without bringing something new to the table.
If you guys truly want another WCG I would tread very carefully. The WCG already has a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths and likewise that's why they get very little promotion around these parts. That's why you pretty much have to find the WCG for yourself on Twitch and the amount of viewers for it for the last few years has been abysmal. Barely anyone paid attention when CombatEx advanced for Canada last year and the numbers for the Finals in China were just as bad for many reasons. Samsung, what the heck are you doing with your marketing dollars if you aren't going to try and give the Event more global exposure? It's as if they've thrown in the towel and are only doing because it's tradition. Then again some people could argue they're in tablet/smartphone/all sorts of other gadgets business and that's why their selection is where it's at today and the WCG is meant to frame those apps/games that use their devices. Makes sense from their side of the business, but I digress.
We want to make sure that each scene can grow and develop at the same time. Something Blizzard sort of understood from the beginning. Personally I would use the leave no player behind approach. Something Riot could even learn to do better. For more info read Starstruck's fancy take on the C9/Fnatic escapades at World's and what the players had to say (for reference all those posts are in this thread). To do this we have to make sure the foreigners and Koreans alike get in as many repetitions as possible against one another. I said it not once; not twice; not thrice. Coincidentally, no more 2-3 kicks at the can (as in 2-3 shots) and your out. Let's make a season of it. 20 appearances at Majors is better than one appearance where a player loses in 2 sets. We want a bigger sample size and this way the player's learn more from experience. Why you think all those Pro League players are well versed? It's because you'll keep seeing them play even if they're in a slump or take a few losses:
On another note I'm completely against regional servers (note: we're talking about gateways; not prelims to some tournament). Never liked the concept yet I see more and more developers making it common practice to have servers for each region because of latency and lag issues-- they want to make things more manageable and look at how many people are playing video games these days (this goes for everything from MOBAs to MMOs). It's hard to blame them. Take Nexon's Dragon Nest for example, where they have a population of several thousand players at any given time (that's their highest population atm btw) yet the servers are still cancerous with lag and all the bots, et la. Lags worse in Vindictus and the population is half of Dragon Nest yet the bots cause more problems! Go figure! F2P games cannot have nice things.
It's as if we took a step backward over the last six years (or perhaps the developers thought we leapt too far forward in the late 90s and early millennium and thought we needed to take a step backward). Or perhaps the World Wide Web got so big as more people got the ability to access it and thought we needed to cut access and set boundaries, hm! If you wanted to play on the Korean servers for many games it's always been a bitch to bypass, but I digress. I remember playing Lineage with my Korean friends and lag was never an issue. The servers would be fine but that has more to do with the server population back then (still talking about the same numbers for Dragon Nest in NA LMFAO). Still the SC:BW B.Net servers would have around 100K people online at any given time back then. It's 2013. We should have the technology and infrastructure to make sure players can play with any other player from any other region without having to worry about latency & lag. We had plenty of ways to get around it back then with third party programs like Hamachi . It sucks that we don't have ways to get around this now. If I want to play with my friend F91 from China. I should be able to do so.
You're really all over the place, hard to understand exactly what your point is.
On the subject of regional servers, I think it's a plus when I speak the same language as the people Im playing against, A+ thumbs up from me for regional servers.
On October 15 2013 09:00 SinCitta wrote: I am none the wiser. But it looks more like minor improvements instead of the big step that is in my opinion needed to bring the scene forward. Not sure if WCS as a whole is still a good concept with Blizzard's reluctance to commit more to it.
Hello SinCitta, what are some of the big steps that you think we should be considering to bring the scene forward?
Silly, sometimes contradictory big ideas:
Merge AM and EU into one atlantic region, then region lock it by residency
Make a pro league style team league with teams gathered around a single location
Expand studio play to the Ro32
Bring the EU/AM regional finals to different SC2-crazy cities each season
Get rid of Challenger League in EU/AM and implement TSL-style qualification brackets instead
Get rid of Challenger League in EU/AM and grant Premier League spots through offline tournaments
Work together with local leagues and tournaments where a home region is not available such as the Chinese NSL. Grant them spots they can give out for their players.
Get rid of the season finals but create a Champion's League Final from all regions once a year that culminates into Blizzcon.
Let regions put different amount of money on top of the current prize pool
Don't overlap more than two regions. Give regions full attention by having them played out at completely different times.
It doesn't make much sense to give these big ideas without knowing your budget or without knowing what you already have in mind. Truth is, it doesn't really matter what exactly the big step is. What's missing is a strong vision behind WCS. A vision the community can rally behind. WCS 2012, despite its problems, had that. WCS 2013 claimed to create a unifying storyline and to level up SC2 in all regions. It did that to some extent in Europe, but it also led to the dispersal of the GSL storyline and put the American player scene into a state of depression. Creating separate regions but making the choice in which to compete in completely arbitrary (outside of logistical restrictions) indicates a lack of, again, vision. It is not clear what Blizzard was trying to achieve with each region.
While I appreciate feedback from Blizzard in general, I must say that the vague answers add uncertainty to a scene that is already deeply insecure about itself. How can players, teams, sponsors and tournament organizers operate with so much up in the air? How can the community rally behind something which they don't know what it is? What if Blizzard doesn't even know what it wants?
One would assume that the transferral of power in 2013, Blizzard had a greater vision in mind, if not for 2013, then for 2014. With the end of the year approaching, I can say that I don't really see it. Maybe WCS 2013 was caused by something we, the community don't know. Was WCS 2013 necessary to consolidate the insecure SC2 scene or did it drive other tournament organizers out? Either way, the community doesn't want WCS to manage stagnation or decline. I am convinced that the community, that helps Blizzard make games as great as they are, will deliver when it is asked to do more.
We really appreciate how thorough, productive, and critical the feedback has been coming in. This is good stuff and you guys/gals are great!
We've already made some adjustments to the finer details based on the responses we're hearing from community. We're working very hard to get everything finalized so we can announce the plans for WCS 2014 as soon as possible.
We sincerely thank you for your passion and support <3
On October 18 2013 09:41 kimaphan wrote: We really appreciate how thorough, productive, and critical the feedback has been coming in. This is good stuff and you guys/gals are great!
We've already made some adjustments to the finer details based on the responses we're hearing from community. We're working very hard to get everything finalized so we can announce the plans for WCS 2014 as soon as possible.
We sincerely thank you for your passion and support <3
Thanks for taking the time to read through the posts here and post your comments as well. Excited to see what changes will be coming up.
The best change blizzard can make is to make two different games for Legacy of the Void.
1st Version) Full Game, Full single-player with challenging achievements and insane difficulty levels for the non-competitive people who want to see the story and play some custom maps for fun afterwards. You know the people who enjoy the game but can't deal with ladder anxiety.
2nd Version) Multiplayer only version only, there's no single player option just the ladder no custom maps except for a certain library which is the ladder maps and the community made tournament maps to choose from. Make this version cost extremely little (Free to play entirely, free to play for a trial period or like 5-10$ maximum and you can unlock other options like full customs for 5 more bucks etc)
The next best change is increase viewership by making the multiplayer game more interesting for the casual playerbase:
I want to see a new introduction to the ladder too for the casual player. On the non-ranked ladder you could be really funny and name the leagues like this:
1) Duck League 2) Dirt League 3) Wood League 4) Steel League 5) Nuclear League
The main purpose of this for-fun ladder is to add an entirely new element to the ladder and it's going to be like talent selection for your race of choice. Think of the talent tree's in MMO's or even the single-player game enhancements you can put on certain units. (Zerglings spawning in 3's - Jumping Cliffs, Siege Tanks with less friendly splash damage etc)
This would add an entirely new and random mechanic that I know I've thought about a lot and would actually enjoy playing. You could create so many new strategies with this addition. Talents for your race? Yes Please.
You could make it fun because it wouldn't be the super-competitive and encourage players to experiment with their play rather than the grindy min/max of your macro and micro but instead your strategy of talents you pick for the race you're playing.
To add to this have it start off kind of like an MMO where you have to level up by playing this ladder to unlock more race "Talents" or "Enhancements" by either purchasing them with EXP gained or unlocked as you gain levels.
As you can see my focus is more on getting MORE people in general just interested in the game so the viewership will naturally and pro-actively increase on it's own.
That's how you save SC2 from dying out early not necessarily focusing on the WCS changes.
Something about team leagues. You guys know how F1 manufacturer championships work? There's an individual competition of course, but each team's total points from all their players get thrown into a team leaderboard and the leading team at the end of the season gets a trophy. WCS could do something like that, and I would be happy with it. But, as has been said before, the most popular sports are team-based. An actual official team league in all regions would definitely be great to watch as well. (although what teams would play in EU?)
i can't wait next year and i really hope there will be changes with regions because we will have in s3 finals only vortix and in grand finals maybe naniwa... it would be great to have all of the great koreans in korea so they can compete each other.. or if they are prepared to live where they compete because like that they can help make competition more popular, everyone around them better etc.
I don't see how SC2 will grow as an e-sport if the results are Korean NA, Korean EU and Korean KR champions. I like to see good games, but without NA players, EU players and KR players at the end, there is not much of a story to excite fans in the regions.
We need a full region lock. Make it so you have to live in the region in which you compete. The story should be "can the underdog NA/EU player upset the favored KR player in the global finals"... Not at the region level.
The money won in the regions need to stay in those regions to grow players and teams.
okay so why is Korea being screwed like this? they can easily make 5 season a year and have to be limited for 3 seasons over 10-11 months. expect GOMTV for sure to make some additional tournaments which will then cause trouble with OGN.
Made a post for this somewhere else but I figured this would be a good place to post the WCS section of it:
A new WCS system is needed to revitalize the competitive scene. Someone once mentioned comparing competitive Starcraft to tennis in terms of rankings and seeding, and I tend to agree. I propose the following:
-WCS points are now enabled for 2v2 and Clan Wars. 2v2 is added to the WCS Regional and Season Finals tournaments, while Clan Wars, due to the complexity and lengthiness of each matchup, would be done through In-Game weekly Blizzard tournaments.
-Weekly in-game Blizzard-run tournaments for WCS POINTS that contribute towards the Season Finals and Blizzcon. Consists of 1v1, 2v2, Clan War (Proleague All-Kill/Regular format each week, with the date determined by the clan), and FFA. This provides an outlet for good players to gain that extra edge in WCS points through the weekly tournamentsn.
In order to balance the fairness of the Clan Wars and ensure that a fun and competitive experience is achieved for all, I have added the Clan Wars as a ladder feature and would make it mandatory that only master level Clan Wars teams and above can enter the tournament.
Team games are a less stressful way of playing the game and would appeal to the casual gamer. Currently the tournaments supported would be the weekly in-game tournaments by Blizzard, as well as the WCS Seasonal tournaments. If other tournaments adopt this format then WCS points will be attributed to those as well.
-Every significantly large/hyped tournament will give WCS points, scaled in amount depending on the size of the prize pool, with a minimum prizepool to be able to give WCS points (e.g. 5 ranks of WCS points depending on the prize pool). What this does is add significance to the more minor tournaments that people might not normally watch, and offer a wider range of tournaments WCS points as opposed to the few that exist now.
-The WCS points, effectively generating a World Ranking system, are used towards seeding in all tournaments that offer WCS points, including the open brackets of the Seasonal WCS qualifiers. This will ensure that a lot of your favorite players will still make it far in the tournament. Note that this doesn’t mean that only the highest ranked WCS players are invited to the tournament, only that if those players decide to enter the tournament they are seeded against people with less WCS points.
-WCS points reset YEARLY
-The top players on each ladder (1v1, 2v2, clan wars) will gain WCS points at the end of each ladder season, each season resets after every Season Finals. This ensures that people play ladder alot and also gives more options to players who wish to maximize their WCS points for Blizzcon. It also enhances the competitiveness of ladder points with something at stake.
To clarify the information above, players will be able to build up WCS points for the season finals by: ranking top ladder, entering blizzard weekly in-game tournaments, getting points from WCS point sanctioned tournaments, including the Seasonal WCS for each Region.
For the seasonal tournaments, Blizzard has hinted that they might make the offline portion of the Seasonal tournaments larger. I truly hope that is the case, offline tournaments are much more fun than online and allow for a live crowd. I propose for the Regionals:
The following players will get an invite to the offline Regional WCS 1v1 tournaments: -The top 16 1v1 players -The top 4 2v2 teams
The following players will get an invite to the online Regional WCS 1v1 tournaments -The top 32 1v1 players -The top 8 2v2 teams
The following players will get an invite to the WCS Season Finals: -The top 32 1v1 players -The top 8 2v2 teams
The following players will get an invite to the offline Blizzcon WCS tournament:
-The top 4 2v2 teams in WCS points -The top 2 clans in WCS points -The top 16 1v1 players in WCS points
-Any clan is allowed to participate in Clan Wars so that means the best clans will probably participate
-Regions will be locked in the interest of giving an even battle ground for every player in their own region and for rejuvenating the foreign scenes. However, blizzard esports division needs to figure out how to keep the scene in Korea vibrant. There needs to be more tournaments in Korea and China; Brood Wars managed to be giant in Korea and I don't think the sole reason was because of the gameplay. I'm pretty sure Blizzard could really help out the scene there if they put their mind to it.
Last but not least, developing storylines is what Blizzard claims is important for WCS in 2014, and I totally agree. Here are things I would do to publicize those storylines for all to see:
-Short documentaries on the backgrounds, playstyles and lifestyle of the players done for every region. Not everyone knows in detail about all the players in the tournaments, and having players to root for makes it more likely for someone to tune in to a stream. Hyungjoon becomes a progamer/NalRa/Project A type videos are examples that were focused on individual players and in my opinion were extremely interesting. I would like to see videos like this at least once a Season for people to have an up and coming player who's progress they can follow, or short segments covering a larger number of the players in the tournament. The latest one, Project A, made it so that even people who didn't know Yellow previously rooted for him as he went from zero to almost advancing to Code A and making it into the GSL. http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/65947 here is a link to that show.
-Group selection for the offline portion with ceremonies for the Regional WCS seasons, with player introductions that along with trophies for the ceremonies, kind of like the MSL did: This provides a form of entertainment and showmanship that showcases players individuality and endears them to the viewers by something other than their gameplay.
-Trophies for different achievements that are given at the end of Blizzcon, encapsulating exceptional accomplishments in the form of best overall ceremonies, best player of each race as voted by the players, rookie of the year, etc.
Am I the only one against region locking? Where does the massive number of Korean players who can't find foreign residency go? Unless prize pools and events multiply in Korea, many low/mid-level Korean players–against whom 99% of non-Koreans cannot advance in wcs NA/EU– will eventually disappear. Would the SC2 scene as a whole benefit from that? I have a feeling that region-locked WCS NA and EU will have an initial bump in viewership, then decline along with the quality of players and games, thus bringing the scene back to square one.
The same American player who couldn't advance against a Korean in NA Challenger with a latency advantage could now get deep in NA Premier, while the former WCS NA/EU Korean could struggle to get out of a further stacked KR Challenger or Challenger qualifier. It may take many seasons for play in NA/EU to reach parity with KR, or may never happen as in the case of Brood War, and it could be too late by then. In fact, it's easy to imagine a scenario in which the remaining Korean players with foreign residency more easily dominate NA/EU.
A region-locked system would only "feel" right if the KR Premier winner won a large multiple of prize money and points over the NA/EU winner, with the rest of the distribution scaled proportionately. Seeing how this may be unjustified based on KR viewership and popularity, it could be wise to shift the axis of the WCS system to NA and EU only and let Kespa/GOM/OGN/etc manage a separate system that is self-sustainable in Korea. Then the Koreans who can get foreign team sponsorship/residency and are willing to move abroad can continue to participate in the WCS system, while the remainder continue in the smaller Korean scene or move on altogether.
On October 22 2013 02:52 gnomeinbrain wrote: I don't see how SC2 will grow as an e-sport if the results are Korean NA, Korean EU and Korean KR champions. I like to see good games, but without NA players, EU players and KR players at the end, there is not much of a story to excite fans in the regions.
We need a full region lock. Make it so you have to live in the region in which you compete. The story should be "can the underdog NA/EU player upset the favored KR player in the global finals"... Not at the region level.
The money won in the regions need to stay in those regions to grow players and teams.
I rather see koreans battling than koreans bashing foreigners. Good foreigners would be cool of course but not locking regions actually let's them play more meaningfull games against koreans than with the region lock. Region lock would make america and europe quite bad compared to KR and the global finals would just be the same steamroll. The 'problem' is the huge difference in skill not the format. Still I would like a region lock just because the korean region would be at full strength again then and more fun to watch.
On October 23 2013 10:05 trifecta wrote: Am I the only one against region locking? Where does the massive number of Korean players who can't find foreign residency go? Unless prize pools and events multiply in Korea, many low/mid-level Korean players–against whom 99% of non-Koreans cannot advance in wcs NA/EU– will eventually disappear. Would the SC2 scene as a whole benefit from that? I have a feeling that region-locked WCS NA and EU will have an initial bump in viewership, then decline along with the quality of players and games, thus bringing the scene back to square one.
The same American player who couldn't advance against a Korean in NA Challenger with a latency advantage could now get deep in NA Premier, while the former WCS NA/EU Korean could struggle to get out of a further stacked KR Challenger or Challenger qualifier. It may take many seasons for play in NA/EU to reach parity with KR, or may never happen as in the case of Brood War, and it could be too late by then. In fact, it's easy to imagine a scenario in which the remaining Korean players with foreign residency more easily dominate NA/EU.
A region-locked system would only "feel" right if the KR Premier winner won a large multiple of prize money and points over the NA/EU winner, with the rest of the distribution scaled proportionately. Seeing how this may be unjustified based on KR viewership and popularity, it could be wise to shift the axis of the WCS system to NA and EU only and let Kespa/GOM/OGN/etc manage a separate system that is self-sustainable in Korea. Then the Koreans who can get foreign team sponsorship/residency and are willing to move abroad can continue to participate in the WCS system, while the remainder continue in the smaller Korean scene or move on altogether.
Good post, I agree with you that a strict region lock would not be good for the korean scene as it is, but there needs to be more foreigners advancing through the different leagues, having a Blizzcon with 15-16 koreans is completely ridiculous since it's supposed to be seen as a global finals.
Back in the day, the biggest prize pools were in Korea and there weren't many big prestigious tournament in other regions, so foreigners used to go to Korea to test their mettle. You don't see that anymore because of the arrival of WCS. Perhaps Blizzard could partner with other organizations inside Korea to enable more tournaments for Koreans. The addition of tournaments in China would also help Koreans establish themselves; maybe a WCS China region could be established and Koreans allowed to enter there due to the closeness between locations.
On October 23 2013 11:34 dgwow wrote: having a Blizzcon with 15-16 koreans is completely ridiculous since it's supposed to be seen as a global finals.
This is the same old discussion but look at what happened at 2012's global finals. There were tons of foreigners that made it to the event, and with the exception of Sen (and TitaN) they all got slaughtered horribly by Koreans. All it did was reduce the number of top players qualifying for the tournament. You won't have a true "global finals" just by forcing non-Koreans into the tournament.
On October 23 2013 11:34 dgwow wrote: having a Blizzcon with 15-16 koreans is completely ridiculous since it's supposed to be seen as a global finals.
This is the same old discussion but look at what happened at 2012's global finals. There were tons of foreigners that made it to the event, and with the exception of Sen (and TitaN) they all got slaughtered horribly by Koreans. All it did was reduce the number of top players qualifying for the tournament. You won't have a true "global finals" just by forcing non-Koreans into the tournament.
Agreed. If a tournament is going to have the best of the best in its finals, they're likely going to be Korean.. who cares anyway? I wanna see good games not fan service.
Look at MCs journey to the final -> beat Kas, FireCake, BabyKnight, ThorZaIN, TargA , Genius.. before falling to MMC.
Now look at soo's journey to the final -> beat YongHwa , Bomber, Super, INnoVation, Parting, Soulkey then fall the Dear.
I would say its 5 to 10 times harder than the EU region, yet they have the same WCS points, same money pool. I do not understand how the EU/AM regions make any sense now. Are they just for some pro gamers to take advantage of grabbing more money in a convenient way?
On October 24 2013 01:49 cpower wrote: Look at MCs journey to the final -> beat Kas, FireCake, BabyKnight, ThorZaIN, TargA , Genius.. before falling to MMC.
Now look at soo's journey to the final -> beat YongHwa , Bomber, Super, INnoVation, Parting, Soulkey then fall the Dear.
I would say its 5 to 10 times harder than the EU region, yet they have the same WCS points, same money pool. I do not understand how the EU/AM regions make any sense now. Are they just for some pro gamers to take advantage of grabbing more money in a convenient way?
Yes, these Koreans who prefers to play on EU/NA... It is Blizzard fault. Give KR ~15-20k more prizemoney each season than EU/NA and region locking. This makes WCS KR a lot stronger with Hero, Taeja, Jaedong etc and I will enjoy more to watch KR.
On October 15 2013 10:09 NonY wrote: These three things don't go together: --have the biggest tournament be based on WCS points --reset WCS points after the tournament --seed players from the season before the tournament into the season after the tournament
EITHER points shouldn't ever reset, but rather decay, and the biggest tournament should happen more than once a year OR points reset annually after the big tournament and there should be no seeds after the big tournament.
And specifically the way it is now for NA, a player's performance in a single elim bracket in September 2013 is going to determine whether they can play in Season One Premier League 2014, which is going to happen at least four months later. I think that's too extreme for SC2.
I like the idea of the points resting annually rather than decaying, but yeah I agree with the rest.
I hate WCS so much... Truly ruining the scene. I watched soooo much SC2 during 2011 and 2012... In 2013 I doubt I've even watched 1/10th as much as either of those years and it's looking like it will decrease even further now... How the hell is 3 seasons considered a good idea? Especially since it sounds like we still aren't going to have standalone GSL/OSL. I strongly believe that if WCS 2013 never existed the scene would be a lot stronger right now.
On October 25 2013 13:52 JJH777 wrote: I hate WCS so much... Truly ruining the scene. I watched soooo much SC2 during 2011 and 2012... In 2013 I doubt I've even watched 1/10th as much as either of those years and it's looking like it will decrease even further now... How the hell is 3 seasons considered a good idea? Especially since it sounds like we still aren't going to have standalone GSL/OSL. I strongly believe that if WCS 2013 never existed the scene would be a lot stronger right now.
Did you watch less SC2 -BECAUSE- of WCS?
I watched less SC2, but honestly I was just busy and lost a bit of interest, but it has picked back up again.
It sounds like you lost interest and are blaming it on WCS because you can. You didn't include any rationale as to why you think WCS would result in '1/10th' of the viewing time.
wcs and osl are not more wcs. blizzard gives points per tournament in the same way they do now. only that gsl and osl bring a little more of points.
blizzard organize a true "league" with a robin round and groups of 16 players. games can be played online, with region lock, or inter-region or whatever. + Show Spoiler +
IMO it must be bo1, to make easier and quick the production. so if we have 1 group every day, we will have 8 matches per day. 3 - 4 hours of starcraft per day instead of the actual 4-6 hours per wcs per day. and will interfere the less with another tournaments
the final standing in the league will give some points. and seed the player to the next league, and demote the less skilled.
suppose we have 4 groups in korea, 2 in EU, and 2 in US
every group will seed 2 or 4 players in a global mini final.
Personally I would be really disappointed if they did get rid of the WCS season finals - to me they are the highlight of the WCS system. Especially if they are going to implement a region lock - having to wait until the end of the year for players from each region to compete would, to me, greatly diminish the experience.
One of the major regions for this on my part is that I have a much greater chance of being physically present at a season finals than I do at Blizzcon. I am from New Zealand but I would definitely travel to attend a season finals (and was planning to next year) - I took a trip to Asia this month and timed it so that I would be in Korea for the regional finals, and would be there again in a heartbeat for a season finals (missed out this year).
I realize that Blizzcon is the ultimate goal of all the WCS build-up, but for someone like me, Blizzcon is once a year, in the USA, and given that it is not a Starcraft-only focused event, much harder to get tickets for. All of which make it a lot more difficult (and less desirable) to attend.
I can sort of understand peoples concerns regarding 'story lines', but I think they can be better addressed through other changes rather than simply removing season finals all together. Redistributing points and/or prize money away from the finals would be a welcome change to my mind, and perhaps a longer gap between regional and season finals would let the region winners bask in their glory for a little longer (since they are going only have 3 seasons over an entire year for 2014). The season finals could even be re-framed as blizzard post-season invitational for bonus cash/points and less of a "grats you are now the best player in the world"-type event.
From my perspective ditching the season finals is getting rid of a tangible enjoyment (the finals) for the the sake of something that seems to only exist in peoples minds (story lines), or at least this appears to be the reasoning they are putting forward.
P.S. I should also add that I think the other changes are generally great (slightly in two-minds regarding region lock but understand the frustration for non-Korean players).
I have been following SC2 for a while. Let me share my thoughts on region locking, all Korean finals etc.
There are many good reasons why Koreans win. Their work ethic is tremendous and they dedicate their lives to eSport. How many of them have girlfriend? How many of them drink, party? Probably none of them.
They don't show much emotions. They are bit boring compared to NaniWa or Idra. But they are still humans. Find something fun about them and build stories.
WCS Regions:
4 Regions(locked): Asia + Oceania, America(continent), Europe, Korea.
Similar to world cup, strong regions should get more seats. Naturally Korea will get 10. Of course it's not fair (world cup selection is not fair too) but it will attract more sponsors, fans, players etc.
On October 29 2013 22:57 fallenmongol wrote: There are many good reasons why Koreans win. Their work ethic is tremendous and they dedicate their lives to eSport. How many of them have girlfriend? How many of them drink, party? Probably none of them.
They don't show much emotions. They are bit boring compared to NaniWa or Idra. But they are still humans. Find something fun about them and build stories.
What the f*ck hahaha Not to get into some sort of meaningless argument, but this is just a ridiculous generalization. Korean gamers aren't "losers" and "don't have girlfriends or go out", that's not the reason they're better lol In fact, many of them do have girlfriends and they all obviously have social lives. They're not different then their foreigner counterparts (in fact, for majority of them I'd say they're less "nerdy" then gamers in NA/EU by far, look at Jaedong, Flash, DRG, Mvp, Nestea, Bisu [RIP ;-;], Soulkey, sOs, hero(CJ), Rain, etc etc, the list goes on... Can't really think of a single example of a top level foreigner pro in the same level, used to only be idra and huk really lol).
The reason they're better is solely because of HOW they practice and their fine attention to detail (helped by coaches and teammates), the team house atmosphere, etc. And they're not "boring" either lol Any top korean who has ever bothered to learn english has often become FAR more popular and entertaining then any foreigner (eg: MC, Polt, even HerO to some extent). I swear, the moment english becomes standard for korean gamers is the moment this "I wanna see foreigners play" b*tching is put to an end.
After attending WCS in Toronto I can honestly say, when I'm paying to see these events, I want to see the best play, period. I've never felt the same watching a starcraft game then I felt in the congress center watching Dear vs. Maru. I really don't want to just gift foreigners spots in premier tournaments. It always turns out into a joke, like the old GSL seeds to everyone but Naniwa, or the WCS last year.
I think Blizzard need to do something about Players forfeiting matches in challenger league to do show matches / hide their builds / whatever lame excuse. There have been examples in EU where MVP couldn't be bothered to participate (show match I heard, don't know if it is true), Dayshi played random all of a sudden and Sortof tried to qualify for DH winter. The Revival / Taeja situation in AM is getting uglier by the day. I don't know if there have been similar cases in KR.
In any case, forfeiting matches without any kind of penalty has to stop. Please stomp on this. It distorts the competition, makes a farce out of it and clearly negatively affects the quality of the games broadcaster for us viewers. Players that forfeit matches without good enough reason to do so should be banned from participating in the next WCS season and have to go through the qualifier again.
Blizzard should treat the players like assets and propose some sort of deal and forcefully make some rivalries happen.
ie. Jaedong is in WCS: NA, good keep him there, bring Flash there to WCS: NA too. JvF for WCS:NA; instant high viewership; instant attention
ie. Mvp is in WCS: EU, keep him there; now bring Nestea, bring the IM team? and have it established IM vs EU's elite with some koreans sprinkled here and there
ie. Manipulate the brackets so that it starts fierce team rivalries (ie. SKT vs KT, CJ vs MVP?) They have to make use of every asset they're given and have to press the right buttons.
On October 30 2013 00:08 ffadicted wrote: What the f*ck hahaha Not to get into some sort of meaningless argument, but this is just a ridiculous generalization. Korean gamers aren't "losers" and "don't have girlfriends or go out", that's not the reason they're better.
I did not say or imply that they are losers. So take that back! They don't have gfs and they don't go out because they don't have time for it. That's all!
On October 30 2013 00:08 ffadicted wrote: lol In fact, many of them do have girlfriends and they all obviously have social lives.
Ok now you have to prove me that. Again I am not calling them losers or anything.
On October 30 2013 00:08 ffadicted wrote: And they're not "boring" either lol Any top korean who has ever bothered to learn english has often become FAR more popular and entertaining then any foreigner (eg: MC, Polt, even HerO to some extent). I swear, the moment english becomes standard for korean gamers is the moment this "I wanna see foreigners play" b*tching is put to an end.
I totally agree with you about the language barrier. However, they don't need to learn English. They just need a good translator. Every Korean team should have a good English speaker(gamer or non gamer) who can update/translate their twitter, blog posts and website in English. I am sure they will get more non Korean followers.
On October 30 2013 00:08 ffadicted wrote: After attending WCS in Toronto I can honestly say, when I'm paying to see these events, I want to see the best play, period. I've never felt the same watching a starcraft game then I felt in the congress center watching Dear vs. Maru. I really don't want to just gift foreigners spots in premier tournaments. It always turns out into a joke, like the old GSL seeds to everyone but Naniwa, or the WCS last year.
Well in that case why even bother having global regions? Instead have 3 separate leagues in Korea and that's all. To promote SC2, have them come to NA or Europe for offline championship tournament so the fans can see and cheer them in real life.
For all the complaining about WCS, we're about to have the top 16 players in the world face off at Blizzcon in possibly one of the best tournaments ever.
Really the only change to make is to have GSL and OSL concurrently instead of WCS Korea, and to have the grand slams be top 4 from each major tournament. (GSL, OSL, WCS NA, WCS EU)
Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Thanks for the update, look forward to hearing on your new ideas/plans soon.
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Looking forward to it! Better to take your time and make sure things are resolved than rush things. =]
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Thank you it's no much better to have you guys at blizzard communicate whats happening. It was so frustrating even like a year ago when there would be long stretches of time where there was no updates on anything. So thanks for giving us small updates on what is going on, keep up the hard work and blow 2014 out of the water!
Blizz has come such a long way in what it is interaction with the player base, it's really great. Thanks for keeping us updated, feels good. I am SO hyped for Blizzcon!!
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Really appreciate the communication Kim that you and Blizzard constantly give regarding your games (unlike some other companies recently). Hopefully you guys will make the best choices for WCS next year. Looking forward to watching Blizzcon for SC2 and HS on stream in a few days!
I am disappoint. Though I understand why they don't want to announce anything before blizzcon... You can't please everyone so waiting until they are gone is wise I guess.
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Posts like this are really appreciated, thanks a lot! Better do it right than rushed, everybody is focused on Blizzcon anyways .
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Thanks for posting this! Love this kind of bite-sized communication, keeps hype up and the community informed. Take as much time as you need.
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Oh what a suprise, more excuses and delays. I am waiting for the next fuck up.
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Oh what a suprise, more excuses and delays. I am waiting for the next fuck up.
How about you be constructive instead of standing on the sidelines spewing vague and critical comments with nothing to back you up?
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Oh what a suprise, more excuses and delays. I am waiting for the next fuck up.
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Oh what a suprise, more excuses and delays. I am waiting for the next fuck up.
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Oh what a suprise, more excuses and delays. I am waiting for the next fuck up.
Jerk..
He said it in a Jerk way, but let's be honest, blizzard does this EVERY SINGLE TIME. They're probably one of the worst companies in the world at meeting deadlines
At least the update was nice, better then just letting blizzcon come and go and not hearing anything
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Oh what a suprise, more excuses and delays. I am waiting for the next fuck up.
Jerk..
He said it in a Jerk way, but let's be honest, blizzard does this EVERY SINGLE TIME. They're probably one of the worst companies in the world at meeting deadlines
At least the update was nice, better then just letting blizzcon come and go and not hearing anything
Well, I suppose you have never heard about Valve and their understanding of time Comparing Blizzard to Valve - they are perfectly fine.
Also I'm a little bit sad that Blizzcon and WCS finals are in so bad time for EU. I can understand the time and stuff around, but for the love of me, why the final match is not on Saturday? This way i can go to bed for work early on Sunday. I think you(Blizzard) could consider this during planning next BConn :> (though I know you can't make everyone happy)
On November 06 2013 09:33 kimaphan wrote: Hey everyone - I wanted to update this thread and let you know that we’ve been working like crazy on WCS 2014. I know we set a goal to share our plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon, but it’s going to take a little more time to nail down the last details before we can make an announcement. We want to make sure we’re closing out the 2013 season as strong as possible, so we’re fully focused on the WCS Global Finals taking place at BlizzCon this week. We do plan to get into next year’s info immediately, so look out for more details about WCS 2014 shortly after the show. Enjoy the week. It’s going to be an awesome time for StarCraft eSports and I’m looking forward to some of the best matches we’ve seen all year. Talk to you soon!
Oh what a suprise, more excuses and delays. I am waiting for the next fuck up.
Jerk..
He said it in a Jerk way, but let's be honest, blizzard does this EVERY SINGLE TIME. They're probably one of the worst companies in the world at meeting deadlines
At least the update was nice, better then just letting blizzcon come and go and not hearing anything
Informing your fans of when you plan I announce stuff is pretty standard for everyone. Its polite even, since they can just wait for the announcement to come, rather than follow up every couple of days.
On November 06 2013 22:31 deacon.frost wrote: Well, I suppose you have never heard about Valve and their understanding of time Comparing Blizzard to Valve - they are perfectly fine.
Also I'm a little bit sad that Blizzcon and WCS finals are in so bad time for EU. I can understand the time and stuff around, but for the love of me, why the final match is not on Saturday? This way i can go to bed for work early on Sunday. I think you(Blizzard) could consider this during planning next BConn :> (though I know you can't make everyone happy)
This Blizzcon is Friday and Saturday... No Sunday!
On November 06 2013 22:31 deacon.frost wrote: Well, I suppose you have never heard about Valve and their understanding of time Comparing Blizzard to Valve - they are perfectly fine.
Also I'm a little bit sad that Blizzcon and WCS finals are in so bad time for EU. I can understand the time and stuff around, but for the love of me, why the final match is not on Saturday? This way i can go to bed for work early on Sunday. I think you(Blizzard) could consider this during planning next BConn :> (though I know you can't make everyone happy)
This Blizzcon is Friday and Saturday... No Sunday!
For us European, Blizzcon finale is sunday between 1am and 3am
On November 06 2013 22:31 deacon.frost wrote: Well, I suppose you have never heard about Valve and their understanding of time Comparing Blizzard to Valve - they are perfectly fine.
Also I'm a little bit sad that Blizzcon and WCS finals are in so bad time for EU. I can understand the time and stuff around, but for the love of me, why the final match is not on Saturday? This way i can go to bed for work early on Sunday. I think you(Blizzard) could consider this during planning next BConn :> (though I know you can't make everyone happy)
This Blizzcon is Friday and Saturday... No Sunday!
For us European, Blizzcon finale is sunday between 1am and 3am
While I agree that earlier times would increase online stream numbers, the tournament is designed to fit into Blizzcon, not the other way around. It's not like the esports team is retarded and doesn't know it's a bad time for Europe, they probably just don't have enough influence to push the entire convention back a few hours.