:
TLO, HerO, HuK, Demuslim, Suppy on WCS 2013 & 2014
Forum Index > SC2 General |
Slasher
United States1095 Posts
| ||
Slasher
United States1095 Posts
| ||
Pandain
United States12862 Posts
Oh it's in the last 5 seconds, lol @ response | ||
snorlax1
Singapore233 Posts
On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote: A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video. wow, thats hurt | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote: A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video. Burned a bridge. True journalism reached. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote: A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video. Good reporting. I'm sure you will get the access you want later. Seriously, it's one thing to report, it's another to brag about the bridges you burned. | ||
kochanfe
Micronesia1338 Posts
On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote: A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video. That's almost unimaginable! Some interesting bits in here for sure though. May need to watch it again when I'm less tired. | ||
Dradugun
Canada9 Posts
Hero's English is incredibly good, it's a shame that he's fairly shy for post game interviews :/ For the actual responses I think Sasquatch's idea is the best about having ladder seed into Premier or Challenger, thus directly introducing major competition into the very top. At the tippy-top, if you watch DeMuslim's stream when he was #1 NA, its very, very easy to lose ladder points, but alsoa lot of games to get those points back up. More high level games on ladder, the better. | ||
Mahanaim
Korea (South)1002 Posts
| ||
askmc70
United States722 Posts
On October 25 2013 13:04 Pandain wrote: The Life segment is not in this video, right? It's in the other, because I can't find life in here only Curious . Oh it's in the last 5 seconds, lol @ response what was the response? it was too fast to hear. | ||
warshop
Canada490 Posts
| ||
AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
very good interviews overall. Would find it interesting if the ladder became more important for WCS as well. | ||
dgwow
Canada1024 Posts
| ||
vesicular
United States1310 Posts
| ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Nearly unanimously, the players said they would like some type of region locking for 2014, including the Korean players. That seems pretty misleading to me. I didn't see any of the Koreans say that they would like region locking. The only one to make reference was Hero, who said it was a system that benefited him and not foreigners (which isn't the same as asking for a region lock). The Koreans mostly complained about reductions in prize pool and increasingly limited options within Korea. Again, not the same as a region lock (and it's not unreasonable to expect that prize pool inside Korea won't change much under a region lock, if anything the amount of money earned by Koreans will decrease overall). Hell, Hyun even said that he hope things don't change because it will screw over a bunch of Koreans. qxc's opinion on WCS was interesting and well thought out. Clever guy! | ||
dcemuser
United States3248 Posts
On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote: A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video. Let's be fair here; it's you. I imagine you've harped constantly on the issue, and this was the last straw rather than the first trigger. It is normal to close -certain- channels of communication when you're being inundated with the same message from everywhere. I have a lot of experience with having to do this, and I'm not even somebody who is remotely important in anything. It's only human. | ||
Weird
United States832 Posts
On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote: A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video. Good for him/her. The more people in the industry that delete you the better. | ||
nextstep
Canada705 Posts
thanks for the interview! | ||
Darkdwarf
Sweden960 Posts
Region locking WCS would really FUCK the korean scene, and that is not needed. Having koreans across the world help WCS keep some level of quality across the board, while the foreigners can slowly feed in, like we're somewhat seeing with players like JonSnow, FireCake etc. Again, like qxc said, what's needed is just more moments where these foreigners get that chance. And as always, more money is always nice, of course... Edit: Also, my dream scenario is that GOM gets to do all of WCS KR next year and that OGN will do several more open tournaments as the highest tier of non-wcs tournaments (even though I'm still not sure if I like that phenomena at all (the rich get richer etc). | ||
Pandain
United States12862 Posts
| ||
ChoDing
United States740 Posts
why u so scared? lol.... i agree but its just foreigners are so scared of koreans... why dont u all practice more? | ||
Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
Blizzard: we had 3 seasons this year, starting in March (when Hots released), with season finals. Next year, you get 3 seasons, period. I don't want region lock to happen.. it will benefit foreigners in the sense they'll get deeper in tournaments and whatnot, but that's not going to fix the 10k viewership the WCS NA currently gets on the average day (THE AVERAGE day, don't come at me with playoff being at 30k, that's not what I'm referring to). I also don't want ALL the koreans to fight over gsl/osl.. there are way too many good players that a ro32 doesn't do them justice. I can visualize lots more retirements if a region lock happened | ||
TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
| ||
eeZe
United States54 Posts
| ||
Swiipii
2195 Posts
On October 25 2013 14:00 ChoDing wrote: region lock... why u so scared? lol.... i agree but its just foreigners are so scared of koreans... why dont u all practice more? Because the practice you get on NA/EU ladder is not NEARLY as good at what you get on KR ladder? | ||
vesicular
United States1310 Posts
| ||
LockeTazeline
2390 Posts
On October 25 2013 13:46 Plexa wrote: That seems pretty misleading to me. I didn't see any of the Koreans say that they would like region locking. The only one to make reference was Hero, who said it was a system that benefited him and not foreigners (which isn't the same as asking for a region lock). The Koreans mostly complained about reductions in prize pool and increasingly limited options within Korea. Again, not the same as a region lock (and it's not unreasonable to expect that prize pool inside Korea won't change much under a region lock, if anything the amount of money earned by Koreans will decrease overall). Hell, Hyun even said that he hope things don't change because it will screw over a bunch of Koreans. qxc's opinion on WCS was interesting and well thought out. Clever guy! My thoughts exactly. Overall a pretty interesting video. Gives a good impression of how a variety of different AM and KR pros feel about WCS. | ||
SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
Not surprised to hear about that Skype incident - Blizzard no doubt wanting to continue living inside it's fantasy bubble that it can do no wrong and that WCS is perfect. Hopefully the bubble will pop before too much damage to the scene. | ||
Yhamm
France7248 Posts
I like the idea to use ladder and that Oz wish there was more tournaments in Korea. | ||
Slasher
United States1095 Posts
On October 25 2013 13:46 Plexa wrote: That seems pretty misleading to me. I didn't see any of the Koreans say that they would like region locking. The only one to make reference was Hero, who said it was a system that benefited him and not foreigners (which isn't the same as asking for a region lock). The Koreans mostly complained about reductions in prize pool and increasingly limited options within Korea. Again, not the same as a region lock (and it's not unreasonable to expect that prize pool inside Korea won't change much under a region lock, if anything the amount of money earned by Koreans will decrease overall). Hell, Hyun even said that he hope things don't change because it will screw over a bunch of Koreans. qxc's opinion on WCS was interesting and well thought out. Clever guy! This is true, I've edited the description | ||
Slasher
United States1095 Posts
On October 25 2013 13:51 Pandain wrote: Slasher was the Life answer focused around region-locking or WCS as a whole? WCS as a whole, doesn't matter so much to him | ||
FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Also we are not scared, we just want the easy money and remove the competition foreigner style . Don't want a region lock mostly because some Koreans I like would probably retire. Since I don't see more tournaments happening in Korea next year. Kespa just did to much damage, even if the ones they caused now are unwillingly and a result of their first stance when sc2 was released. | ||
gosublade
632 Posts
| ||
Doublemint
Austria8366 Posts
#fuckslasher4trueEsportsJournalism. I loved Life's last line lol. On October 25 2013 15:17 gosublade wrote: Isnt the problem here that forigners just suck? The problem is an uneven playing field. Yes foreigners need to step it up, but that is not easily possible when Koreans have the best practice and training environment at their doorstep. While the EU and NA server are decent, it's child's play in comparison. Apart from the residency region lock idea, what about if Blizzard actually opens another ladder realm? It worked during the HotS beta, why not make it more competitive that way? I remember Grubby praising the great practice he got during Beta because he also got to play against all the good Koreans. I think that would make a huge impact for the better with relatively little efforts needed by Blizzard. | ||
Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On October 25 2013 15:24 Doublemint wrote: #fuckslasher4trueEsportsJournalism. I loved Life's last line lol. The problem is an uneven playing field. Yes foreigners need to step it up, but that is not easily possible when Koreans have the best practice and training environment at their doorstep. While the EU and NA server are decent, it's child's play in comparison. Apart from the residency region lock idea, what about if Blizzard actually opens another ladder realm? It worked during the HotS beta, why not make it more competitive that way? I remember Grubby praising the great practice he got during Beta because he also got to play against all the good Koreans. I think that would make a huge impact for the better with relatively little efforts needed by Blizzard. I agree Getting into a GM ladder could let you connect to this international server, that'd be cool. | ||
iMrising
United States1099 Posts
Just a thought though, not saying its the best :\ or we should all just follow life's advice and throw wcs offboard :D | ||
hansonslee
United States2026 Posts
Yeah, there should be a soft region lock like the ladder, but we shouldn't forget about the Koreans either. I hope Blizzard finds the best compromise for everyone! | ||
Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
| ||
GatsbyTheGreat
68 Posts
| ||
rename
Estonia329 Posts
On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote: A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video. Well TBH I'd delete people from my skype who spam me with video interviews with ads too. Where is the transcript? edit: i understand creating transcripts requires more effort, and video ads generate more money - but if you really wanted to help that blizzard employee with player insight, you should not make them waste their time on your ads and videos and get them a text version. | ||
pmp10
3137 Posts
On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote: A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video. Was it some low ranking employee ignoring you for spamming or someone responsible for WCS that didn't want to hear criticism? This discussion is pretty pointless anyway. It's way too late to save American scene and too late for serious region-lock. | ||
SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
This little guy is such a baller | ||
Slasher
United States1095 Posts
On October 25 2013 16:27 rename wrote: Well TBH I'd delete people from my skype who spam me with video interviews with ads too. Where is the transcript? edit: i understand creating transcripts requires more effort, and video ads generate more money - but if you really wanted to help that blizzard employee with player insight, you should not make them waste their time on your ads and videos and get them a text version. I understand people want transcripts of these video features and interviews, but at the time it's not feasible to do so, at least on the current GameSpot site. There is something new coming soon though that will make things easier. At the same time, I think watching a video on the subject shouldn't be too much different than reading people's thoughts. | ||
Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
So when a female-only tournament/cup comes out, they say it's great because it will allow to grow female scene (even thou more skilled male players can't get the money they would deserve more) which is kinda true. It's a tricky question if we start to think if it's right or wrong. But when we talk about region lock, these same people say that there is absolutely no need for it because foreigners just need to practice more. While this WCS system hurts EU/NA scene a lot more, and it's harder for foreigners to catch up korens in skill (because SK has a lot more experience and infrastructure for professional gaming and only hope to compete is to go to train in korea) than females to catch up males (they train on same server with same tools, opportunities and psychological inferiority feeling they would feel with male based audience is very similar how foreigners feel inferior against koreans)- they don't want the region lock. I don't like bringing these points out, but this hypocrisy is kinda annoying. | ||
StarStruck
25339 Posts
On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote: A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video. Ha ha ha. Oh lordy. On October 26 2013 00:56 Huragius wrote: All I want a little bit of consistency from majority of posters considering this issue. So when a female-only tournament/cup comes out, they say it's great because it will allow to grow female scene (even thou more skilled male players can't get the money they would deserve more) which is kinda true. It's a tricky question if we start to think if it's right or wrong. But when we talk about region lock, these same people say that there is absolutely no need for it because foreigners just need to practice more. While this WCS system hurts EU/NA scene a lot more, and it's harder for foreigners to catch up korens in skill (because SK has a lot more experience and infrastructure for professional gaming and only hope to compete is to go to train in korea) than females to catch up males (they train on same server with same tools, opportunities and psychological inferiority feeling they would feel with male based audience is very similar how foreigners feel inferior against koreans)- they don't want the region lock. I don't like bringing these points out, but this hypocrisy is kinda annoying. I rather not rehash the same old arguments. There is hypocrisy throughout the whole scene and if you want my take on the formats just read a few of my recent posts in my history for an explanation on why some of the things like region locking are bad. Good luck calling me a hypocrite because I never embraced female only tournaments. Newsflash: they get really shitty exposure. On October 25 2013 14:14 vesicular wrote: Per QXC's point, they should have a mini-WCS that lets you play into Challenger league. IE, several short weekend tournaments where you accumulate points with the highest point total being seeded into Challenger for that season. This allows Code B type players to be able to play more games, cream to rise to the top, less "luck of the draw" based, more for fans to watch and perhaps ends up giving us better quality Challenger games as a result. This could be done for all regions including Korea. We sort of had something like that. Remember MLG had it's own technical circuit. DH had it's own technical circuit as well. Look, it would really help if you bunch them altogether to create a formal world circuit and you don't regionalize them. All players and certified teams play in them. It's time to legitimize teams formally. On October 25 2013 14:41 Yhamm wrote: NA players ask for region lock and Korean think it's fine how it is and even ask more money. not really surprising to be honest I like the idea to use ladder and that Oz wish there was more tournaments in Korea. It should come as no surprise. Everyone has their own agenda and that's why you have to take such opinions with some salt. In this case it's better to hear from people who have practically no stakes in the scene, but have good knowledge of it. | ||
geokilla
Canada8162 Posts
On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote: A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video. Rob Simpson? | ||
Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On October 26 2013 00:59 StarStruck wrote: Ha ha ha. Oh lordy. I rather not rehash the same old arguments. There is hypocrisy throughout the whole scene and if you want my take on the formats just read a few of my recent posts in my history for an explanation on why some of the things like region locking are bad. Good luck calling me a hypocrite because I never embraced female only tournaments. Newsflash: they get really shitty exposure. And I'm not calling you a hypocrite, because you are being consistent and rational. The issure I talked about was how people tend to judge things differently based on their feelings on different social groups. It would still be okay, since these questions are never just black or white but at least they could explain why they think so. | ||
StarStruck
25339 Posts
I thought Rob Simpson was no longer with Blizzard & with Red Bull? Regardless it doesn't really matter. | ||
StarStruck
25339 Posts
On October 26 2013 01:10 Huragius wrote: And I'm not calling you a hypocrite, because you are being consistent and rational. The issure I talked about was how people tend to judge things differently based on their feelings on different social groups. It would still be okay, since these questions are never just black or white but at least they could explain why they think so. I never said you were calling me a hypocrite. I said, good luck to those trying to call me out as one though and yes I agreed with your point with regards to the hypocrisy whether it be, "I like my game more than something else so I'll shit on it;" "I don't like player x but I like player y;" "x race is stupid;" etc. It's an endless cycle and it's stupid. When it comes to formatting there are a lot of shades of gray but believe it or not there are a few ways to make everyone happy. | ||
Dingodile
4123 Posts
Is this common or is this video an exception? | ||
Prplppleatr
United States1518 Posts
On October 26 2013 01:50 Dingodile wrote: Do you really need a permission from a blizzard member for before you can share your stuff to the community (like this video)? Is this common or is this video an exception? I doubt it had anything to do with permissions (otherwise the video wouldnt be out) but was probably because of it's content and criticisms. as a viewer, i prefer the original system, but i dont think we will ever see it again because it certainly had its flaws | ||
Copymizer
Denmark2075 Posts
| ||
kellymilkies
Singapore1393 Posts
They should just have minimum slots allocation for Koreans who want to be there or have strict rules for it somehow to have a fixed number. Locking them out of the region completely is just unfair and retarded. It's like saying foreignors cant go to korea to train or imagine if they banned NA or EU players out of GSL, then we would never have got players like Naniwa. Sure it sucks that the brackets are harder, but that's why gaming is about. A challenge. To make it fair they should just do it like GSL. Foreignors have to play a qualification, there is an unwritten rule of maximum foreignors allowed per season etc. And do some rules like, each team can lock a maximum of 3 player in each region. So big teams needs to pick what players they want to lock to what region. (This concept needs to be worked on, I know some teams have an insane amount of players. You can either lock a maximum amount of korean, or share the slot with your foreign players etc) so teams have to make a real choice on what region should they play in. Since people are talking about legitimatizing eSports and want teams to take more responsibilities for their players (Which I completely agree) - they should. | ||
teddyoojo
Germany22366 Posts
| ||
Dingodile
4123 Posts
On October 26 2013 02:39 teddyoojo wrote: im so surprised, ppl that would be favoured by a region lock are in favour of a region lock and those who wouldnt, arent. ? ppl never change their opinions! Especially at internet. | ||
vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On October 26 2013 00:56 Huragius wrote: All I want a little bit of consistency from majority of posters considering this issue. So when a female-only tournament/cup comes out, they say it's great because it will allow to grow female scene (even thou more skilled male players can't get the money they would deserve more) which is kinda true. It's a tricky question if we start to think if it's right or wrong. But when we talk about region lock, these same people say that there is absolutely no need for it because foreigners just need to practice more. While this WCS system hurts EU/NA scene a lot more, and it's harder for foreigners to catch up korens in skill (because SK has a lot more experience and infrastructure for professional gaming and only hope to compete is to go to train in korea) than females to catch up males (they train on same server with same tools, opportunities and psychological inferiority feeling they would feel with male based audience is very similar how foreigners feel inferior against koreans)- they don't want the region lock. I don't like bringing these points out, but this hypocrisy is kinda annoying. What if the female had just as many tournaments with the same prize pool? I don't think the issue is with region lock as that there isn't enough prize money and tournaments in Korea. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 26 2013 02:54 vthree wrote: What if the female had just as many tournaments with the same prize pool? I don't think the issue is with region lock as that there isn't enough prize money and tournaments in Korea. That is because they are not enough viewers in Korea. Its not about which region is the most "worthy" prize money. It about where the viewers are. | ||
mrRoflpwn
United States2618 Posts
| ||
Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On October 25 2013 13:46 Plexa wrote: qxc's opinion on WCS was interesting and well thought out. Clever guy! Par for the course with QXC. I always like listening to him, Grubby and Nony. The perspectives and insights they come up with on a variety of subjects are often impress me with their perceptiveness and even creativity. They're the warrior-philosophers of starcraft. | ||
shockaslim
United States1102 Posts
However, saying that there are too many Koreans is kind of a cop out. If you don't think you are able to beat the Koreans that are in WCS NA and EU, how in Gods name are you gonna beat the Koreans from WCS KR? | ||
Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote: A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video. sounds like no region lock coming then ? ... if rly i stop watching its only korean in the end but worse then gsl was in past | ||
eonDE
Canada371 Posts
| ||
Elite_
United States4259 Posts
| ||
SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On October 26 2013 06:22 Drake wrote: sounds like no region lock coming then ? ... if rly i stop watching its only korean in the end but worse then gsl was in past I highly doubt region lock is coming. I've come to learn over the years that these guys would much rather attempt to preserve their sense of righteousness than do what the community wants and the industry requires. This isn't a battle to decide what's best for Starcraft 2 - the solutions are obvious. Rather, this is a battle to preserve the ego's of the decision-makers behind WCS who refuse to admit that they've made a mistake. Also, can't really blame the decision-makers for their stubborness (selfish as it may be), as their jobs may very well depend on continuing the charade that the current system is meeting Blizzard's objectives. Self-preservation is a pretty strong human instinct. | ||
Herro_Korea
310 Posts
already out | ||
lamprey1
Canada919 Posts
Blizzard support for SC2 is down folks. | ||
JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
| ||
Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On October 26 2013 07:22 lamprey1 wrote: i love how HuK exposed the money issue. Blizzard support for SC2 is down folks. HuK "Ya, I liked how there were regional storylines. Like remember when US had...Idra...and...whoeverelse" yep, those valuable storylines. | ||
neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On October 26 2013 07:37 Sub40APM wrote: HuK "Ya, I liked how there were regional storylines. Like remember when US had...Idra...and...whoeverelse" yep, those valuable storylines. hahaha yeah, spot on! (who remembers last years WCS? seriously? i only remember some awesome kr pvp and then two days worth of parting soul train pushing noobs into the ground) | ||
Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On October 26 2013 07:39 neptunusfisk wrote: lol so many sad, hurt foreigners hahaha yeah, spot on! (who remembers last years WCS? seriously? i only remember some awesome kr pvp and then two days worth of parting soul train pushing noobs into the ground) ya i mean they really let the cat out of the bag when they say 'too many koreans, and i cant beat them all' and then the good old self justification 'even if i was korean it would be impossible to win' | ||
rivurivurivurivu
Sweden140 Posts
I really dont understand why pros want a region/residence lock, its like praying for a protection against koreans. Having a WCS Canada,USA,Mexico, etc for example with region lock will be (from a viewer point) boring imo. lets take canada for example. We know how good Scarlet and Huk are, they will probably win. as a viewer why watch a residence locked WCS Canada if i know who will win? There is no challenge for Huk or Scarlet there are no Koreans to defeat. No Canada vs Korea, just Huk and Scarlet. I agree with TLO and QXC. WCS is too big, international tournaments should be as important. be able to win WCS points from DH,EIM or HSC will help foreigners but as Demuslim said, the problem is that not everybody can practice vs Koreans in lader. maybe a extra tier in the lader after GM, i dont know Pro league ? a mixed server from all the world could help. dont know if it is possible tho. Again as demuslim said it will be awesome to see a clash at the end of wcs a sweden player vs korea, a canada player vs korea but the true is that foreigners dont have the level yet. I prefer 1 single foreigner to make to the WCS finals and know that he/she have a chance to win than 8 (random number) and get stomped by Koreans just because the where protected in the qualifiers. my 2 cents | ||
StarStruck
25339 Posts
On October 26 2013 06:22 Drake wrote: sounds like no region lock coming then ? ... if rly i stop watching its only korean in the end but worse then gsl was in past I Wouldn't read that much into it. lmao -__- | ||
neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On October 26 2013 07:50 Sub40APM wrote: ya i mean they really let the cat out of the bag when they say 'too many koreans, and i cant beat them all' and then the good old self justification 'even if i was korean it would be impossible to win' yes, the sad truth of not being good enough "blizz, please make easier tournaments so i can win against worse players and then be cannon fodder for koreans in a big event" | ||
BronzeKnee
United States5207 Posts
Suppy: Critical of WCS, no compelling storyline, made it harder for foreigners. Wants region locking. Hyun: Wants to keep things the same because WCS went through a huge change, worries that Koreans will suffer if things change again. TLO: WCS too important for the scene, everyone focuses on WCS. Wants to relocate WCS points to other events to alleviate this. Curious: Increase prize pool, not enough money for players to earn. Huk: Region locking is necessary. Everyone prefered the older WCS, new WCS isn't as exciting. Sasquatch: Region locking by residency. Wants more ways to qualify, including the ladder. State: Not region locking was a mistake. Demuslim: A real region lock needs to happen. Hero: WCS is good for me because I can travel to the US and play WCS. But Koreans are everywhere so it is bad. Revival: Pretty happy since I've been doing well. Would like to see more leagues in Korea. QXC: Not for a region lock, doesn't solve the primary issue. The primary issues are season too long, and chances to participate are not frequent enough. WCS does not promote cross server play or ladder. Life: Wish they would get rid of WCS. | ||
Weird
United States832 Posts
On October 26 2013 06:57 SCST wrote: I highly doubt region lock is coming. I've come to learn over the years that these guys would much rather attempt to preserve their sense of righteousness than do what the community wants and the industry requires. This isn't a battle to decide what's best for Starcraft 2 - the solutions are obvious. Rather, this is a battle to preserve the ego's of the decision-makers behind WCS who refuse to admit that they've made a mistake. Also, can't really blame the decision-makers for their stubborness (selfish as it may be), as their jobs may very well depend on continuing the charade that the current system is meeting Blizzard's objectives. Self-preservation is a pretty strong human instinct. Wow, someone really doesn't like Blizzard huh? I like how instead of trying to backup your claims with facts you just vomit more and more gross generalizations and dumb opinions... Like who are you? Some random dude on an internet forum right? It's a complex situation, but yeah, just hate hate hate, that'll fix things... Maybe you can give Slasher your skype number to replace the one that he lost from his Blizzard contact, and you two can fix everything huh? | ||
AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
For instance, the water may need more "chumming." The big dogs, the alpha predators paddle casually along at the top of the food chain, gobbling down their opposition every 3 months. Everyone else tends to just get stuck with each other, the not-good-enoughs and the could-have-beens. They lack the constant, elite competition the upper echelons have to keep their fangs sharp, so the lower-tier guys have their motivation and competitive drive slowly throttled over a period of months. A few among them are very strong and may rise to the top of their club, but they're the big fish of a small pond, the catfish to the carcharodons. Training for the WCS is like repetitively jumping up and down every day in the hopes of succeeding at a single high jump a few months down the line. There needs to be blood, conflict, uncertainty, something to put a chink in the armor of alphas. When the competitive can smell blood in the water, it draws them, slowly but surely, until, one day, after their skills have been sharpened on a thousand foes in preparation, they finally sink their teeth in and taste their victory. | ||
SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On October 26 2013 09:20 Weird wrote: Wow, someone really doesn't like Blizzard huh? I like how instead of trying to backup your claims with facts you just vomit more and more gross generalizations and dumb opinions... Like who are you? Some random dude on an internet forum right? It's a complex situation, but yeah, just hate hate hate, that'll fix things... Maybe you can give Slasher your skype number to replace the one that he lost from his Blizzard contact, and you two can fix everything huh? Is that you, David Kim? You probably work for Blizzard and WCS. Nobody else would be so ardent in the defense of WCS unless they were completely ignorant of the history of Starcraft 2 (which is a possibility as you demand "facts" related to the stupidity of poor WCS decisions that no one else disputes). Sure, it's my opinion that certain decision-makers behind WCS are either incompetent or have something else going on (egotistical and stubborn). And I think that opinion is fairly justified. Because the solutions to their problems are so obvious that even a four-year old could resolve them. And since I refuse to believe that these people are such morons that they can't figure out the solutions that are being shoved in their faces (literally) daily by every foreign player, personality and reputable community member. .. . then that leaves the remaining option of something weird going on, right? I speculate that it's a form of mania. But I needn't say more. Because if you've got such a hard-on for WCS or blizzard that you would go after my post as baseless "hate" rhetoric, then you're probably also happy with the status quo and don't want to see anything change. P.S. And the idea that the problems with WCS are "complex" . . . Did you watch the video that is the entire purpose of this thread? Some people are so dense that every person on the planet could tell them solution in two words - the exact same solution - for years and they would still not get it. REGION LOCK. lol | ||
wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
| ||
Weird
United States832 Posts
I'm not defending WCS. I'm just pointing out how you are posting like an angry chimpanzee. That is all. Edit: and I'm pretty sure that David Kim is in charge of the balance team, and has nothing to do with tournament structure, but say whatever you want, it's the internet right? Clown. | ||
SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On October 26 2013 11:04 Weird wrote: Just more vomit. I'm not defending WCS. I'm just pointing out how you are posting like an angry chimpanzee. That is all. Edit: and I'm pretty sure that David Kim is in charge of the balance team, and has nothing to do with tournament structure, but say whatever you want, it's the internet right? Clown. Cynical yes. Angry, nah. Didn't see me using words like "vomit" in my post, did you? Ha. My post wasn't directed at anyone who posts on these forums. It's just a cynical opinion regarding WCS. Take a deep breath next time, before you get so worked up over a cynical forum post that you just have to try and pick a fight and start your "vomit" campaign on our forums. Lol. | ||
Weird
United States832 Posts
On October 26 2013 11:13 SCST wrote: Cynical yes. Angry, nah. Didn't see me using words like "vomit" in my post, did you? Ha. My post wasn't directed at anyone who posts on these forums. It's just a cynical opinion regarding WCS. Take a deep breath next time, before you get so worked up over a cynical forum post that you just have to try and pick a fight and start your "vomit" campaign on our forums. Lol. So you post on these forums to talk to yourself? Kinda sad. Not worked up. just want less stupidity on these forums, more intelligent, well thought out posts, the opposite of the trash that you've shown so far. I take my leave of this thread. Good day. | ||
winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
| ||
StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
| ||
SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On October 26 2013 11:18 Weird wrote: So you post on these forums to talk to yourself? Kinda sad. Not worked up. just want less stupidity on these forums, more intelligent, well thought out posts, the opposite of the trash that you've shown so far. I take my leave of this thread. Good day. Look my friend, sometimes you've got to glean the context from a post. "[The cynicism in] my post wasn't directed at anyone who posts on these forums". Does that help? "just want less stupidity on these forums, more intelligent, well thought out posts" . . . . Uh oh. Your demand is the symptom of a very common phenomena. It's called: egomania! By all means, you should write in to TL and demand that they check with you on every post in this forum. Anyone that doesn't pass your sophisticated test as to what is "intelligent, well thought out and less stupid" will be severely disciplined. Never mind if you're biased and you might accidentally punish some of us simply because we disagree with you. I'm sure that would never happen. Lol. Go ahead and start writing. It'll work out. They'll listen to you because you're that important. Trust me. | ||
learning88
United States160 Posts
So let's say we get people from their regions representing but in the end, the Koreans will probably win just because they are so much better at the game for some strange reason. Advocating for region lock decreases the amount of Koreans in the end but with the current mentality of "Koreans are better," then whoever wins in WCS Korea will pretty much just win the whole tournament. And this brings me to another point (since I'm in science). Why are Koreans better than foreigners? I highly doubt it's because people born in that region are gifted with a "multitasking gene" in their DNA that makes them far superior and thus they always win. Maybe its their training regimen? I'm pretty detached from the world of progaming so I don't know how many hours Koreans practice versus how many hours foreigners practice but there's something that Koreans are doing right that foreigners are not. As a spectator and a casual player, I'd rather see good players play, regardless if their Korean or foreigner. I just want to see great games. Region locking would reduce this because most of the best players are from Korea. With region locking, it would be unfair to the Koreans that didn't make it through the WCS Korea because they could probably beat many of the foreigners that make it out of their respective region. | ||
SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On October 26 2013 11:36 learning88 wrote: I honestly don't know what to do or how I would revamp the WCS system. But something that I noticed, and maybe this has been asked in this thread is, how does region lock do anything in the grand scheme of things? So let's say we get people from their regions representing but in the end, the Koreans will probably win just because they are so much better at the game for some strange reason. Advocating for region lock decreases the amount of Koreans in the end but with the current mentality of "Koreans are better," then whoever wins in WCS Korea will pretty much just win the whole tournament. And this brings me to another point (since I'm in science). Why are Koreans better than foreigners? I highly doubt it's because people born in that region are gifted with a "multitasking gene" in their DNA that makes them far superior and thus they always win. Maybe its their training regimen? I'm pretty detached from the world of progaming so I don't know how many hours Koreans practice versus how many hours foreigners practice but there's something that Koreans are doing right that foreigners are not. As a spectator and a casual player, I'd rather see good players play, regardless if their Korean or foreigner. I just want to see great games. Region locking would reduce this because most of the best players are from Korea. With region locking, it would be unfair to the Koreans that didn't make it through the WCS Korea because they could probably beat many of the foreigners that make it out of their respective region. First let's identify the main problems: 1. Viewership: required for sustainability - the money behind the entire industry 2. Growth: everyone likes growth in every possible way How does region locking address these problems? 1. Storylines: foreigners want to watch other foreigners, even if they lose. This is indisputable. Most people want to watch players they can relate too. How many American's watch Japanese baseball? How many soccer fans from Germany cheer for Brazil? This directly affects the viewership and growth and is the main problem with WCS in my opinion. Sure, we wish we lived in a world where nationality doesn't matter and there are no language barriers. But that isn't the reality we live in. 2. Regional Income: foreigners have long been at a disadvantage to Koreans due to the fact that they can't earn a living off the "chance" that they might win a tournament. There are very few team-houses outside of Korea because the areas are so vastly far apart. Koreans can live in a team-house and (while difficult and cramped) survive while playing the game, even if they don't win. The prize pool in WCS is such that if region-locked, foreigners in their respective regions would have a "salary" of sorts to sustain themselves while devoting themselves fully to the game. This will allow them to improve and become better players. 3. International Competition: region-locking would at least allow a diverse, international tournament to occur at the end of the year. Having 100% Koreans at the "World" Championship Series at Blizzcon is a slap in the face to the very idea. Even if foreigners lose - at least they'll have participated in the final event. Why are Koreans better than foreigners? Koreans aren't inherently better than foreigners. They have a stronger history playing Starcraft - much more so than foreigners. They are more centralized - team houses are sustainable and players don't have to win in order to devote themselves to the game. It's also a vicious cycle when it comes to training. Koreans train and ladder with other Koreans. Foreigners have difficulty doing this as laddering on KR is very laggy and at an odd hour. Ever notice how players who go to Korea improve their play? It's because they're playing against better players. Also, Koreans are extremely nationalistic. Naniwa has spoken about this at times (not being able to trust even his own Korean team-mates to reveal his strategies to Korean opponents). Koreans frequently help each other out - they have each other's back regardless of their team affiliation when it comes to beating foreigners. Foreigners don't have any such synergy, in my mind. So how can foreigners ever improve their skill level without training against the hordes of devoted Koreans? Is it surprising that when I watch Demuslim get to #1 on NA ladder that he should lose to his KR opponent in an important tournament? It's not to me, because winning every game on ladder against a foreigner means nothing if you aren't improving your skill by matching up against the best in the world. "As a spectator I'd rather see the best players play" While admirable and I feel the same, it's simply not the way the majority of casual viewership feels. The average foreigner who tunes in once in a while to catch a game doesn't want to see what he/she deems as "generic" Koreans play. That person wants to see players that he/she can relate to and recognize. Someone to cheer for, like Stephano or Naniwa. Most casual viewership doesn't even play the game or know why somebody wins or loses in Starcraft. They just enjoy the thrill of the competition. And that's OK because those are the people who pay the bills. | ||
neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
| ||
vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On October 26 2013 11:58 SCST wrote: How does region locking fix the problem? First let's identify the main problems in order of importance: 1. Viewership: required for sustainability - the money behind the entire industry 2. Growth: everyone likes growth in every possible way How does region locking address these problems? 1. Storylines: foreigners want to watch other foreigners, even if they lose. This is indisputable. Most people want to watch players they can relate too. How many American's watch Japanese baseball? How many soccer fans from Germany cheer for Brazil? This directly affects the viewership and growth and is the main problem with WCS in my opinion. Sure, we wish we lived in a world where nationality doesn't matter and there are no language barriers. But that isn't the reality we live in. 2. Regional Income: foreigners have long been at a disadvantage to Koreans due to the fact that they can't earn a living off the "chance" that they might win a tournament. There are very few team-houses outside of Korea because the areas are so vastly far apart. Koreans can live in a team-house and (while difficult and camped) survive while playing the game, even if they don't win. The prize pool in WCS is such that if region-locked, foreigners in their respective regions would have a "salary" of sorts to sustain themselves while devoting themselves fully to the game. This will allow them to improve and become better players. 3. International Competition: region-locking would at least allow a diverse, international tournament to occur at the end of the year. Having 100% Koreans at the "World" Championship Series at Blizzcon is a slap in the face to the very idea. Even if foreigners lose - at least they'll have participated in the final event. Why are Koreans better than foreigners? Koreans aren't inherently better than foreigners. They have a stronger history playing Starcraft - much more so than foreigners. They are more centralized - team houses are sustainable and players don't have to win in order to devote themselves to the game. "As a spectator I'd rather see the best players play" While admirable and I feel the same, it's simply not the way the majority of casual viewership feels. The average foreigner who tunes in once in a while to catch a game doesn't want to see what he/she deems as "generic" Koreans play. That person wants to see players that he/she can relate too and recognize. Someone to cheer for, like Stephano or Naniwa. Most casual viewership doesn't even play the game or know why somebody wins or loses in Starcraft. They just enjoy the thrill of the competition. And that's OK because those are the people who pay the bills. Are you sure people want to watch just foreigners play? Or do they want to watch foreigner vs korean? There were all foreigner groups in challenger league NA and that got low viewership as well. Although it is challenger league so might not indicate as much. But honestly, I don't think too many NA viewers really clamor to see Puck vs Drunkenboi. | ||
SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On October 26 2013 12:15 vthree wrote: Are you sure people want to watch just foreigners play? Or do they want to watch foreigner vs korean? There were all foreigner groups in challenger league NA and that got low viewership as well. Although it is challenger league so might not indicate as much. But honestly, I don't think too many NA viewers really clamor to see Puck vs Drunkenboi. I think it's both. If people knew who the hell Puck and Drunkoi actually were as players - if they became known personalities - you bet your ass people would watch. Hell, viewership spiked like crazy when Coach Park played that match in MLG. He got smashed - but everyone was cheering for him regardless. | ||
AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
On October 26 2013 12:15 vthree wrote: Are you sure people want to watch just foreigners play? Or do they want to watch foreigner vs korean? There were all foreigner groups in challenger league NA and that got low viewership as well. Although it is challenger league so might not indicate as much. But honestly, I don't think too many NA viewers really clamor to see Puck vs Drunkenboi. Just to throw my two cents in as a casual player and viewer: I love foreigner vs. foreigner matches. Koreans having generic personalities isn't the only problem they have: their play is often generic in its own way. Since a lot of the highest-level players are near-perfect, they often share the same "flavor" of play. Their perfection, their flawless execution and spot-on decision making make the game bland in its own way. Everything they do is perfect, it is calculated and measured and thus predictable and ultimately boring. I'm too bad of a player to spot the difference between a good korean and a good foreigner as long as they aren't facing each other. When foreigners face each other, they make tons of mistakes. Most of these mistakes are too small for a nooblet like me to see. I can only see what they do to the game. These mistakes breath life into the game I have watched for two years. They replace the clockwork dance of the koreans with the organic and unpredictable play I have come to associate with foreigners. Bizzare and exotic playstyles thrive without opponents that can dismantle them piece by piece with perfectly-timed build orders and back stabs. Tiny mistakes made in every play make the results of every action unpredictable and, as a result, highly entertaining. The organic chaos of foreigner vs. foreigner games has a huge appeal to me. | ||
learning88
United States160 Posts
On October 26 2013 11:58 SCST wrote: First let's identify the main problems: 1. Viewership: required for sustainability - the money behind the entire industry 2. Growth: everyone likes growth in every possible way How does region locking address these problems? 1. Storylines: foreigners want to watch other foreigners, even if they lose. This is indisputable. Most people want to watch players they can relate too. How many American's watch Japanese baseball? How many soccer fans from Germany cheer for Brazil? This directly affects the viewership and growth and is the main problem with WCS in my opinion. Sure, we wish we lived in a world where nationality doesn't matter and there are no language barriers. But that isn't the reality we live in. 2. Regional Income: foreigners have long been at a disadvantage to Koreans due to the fact that they can't earn a living off the "chance" that they might win a tournament. There are very few team-houses outside of Korea because the areas are so vastly far apart. Koreans can live in a team-house and (while difficult and cramped) survive while playing the game, even if they don't win. The prize pool in WCS is such that if region-locked, foreigners in their respective regions would have a "salary" of sorts to sustain themselves while devoting themselves fully to the game. This will allow them to improve and become better players. 3. International Competition: region-locking would at least allow a diverse, international tournament to occur at the end of the year. Having 100% Koreans at the "World" Championship Series at Blizzcon is a slap in the face to the very idea. Even if foreigners lose - at least they'll have participated in the final event. Why are Koreans better than foreigners? Koreans aren't inherently better than foreigners. They have a stronger history playing Starcraft - much more so than foreigners. They are more centralized - team houses are sustainable and players don't have to win in order to devote themselves to the game. It's also a vicious cycle when it comes to training. Koreans train and ladder with other Koreans. Foreigners have difficulty doing this as laddering on KR is very laggy and at an odd hour. Ever notice how players who go to Korea improve their play? It's because they're playing against better players. Also, Koreans are extremely nationalistic. Naniwa has spoken about this at times (not being able to trust even his own Korean team-mates to reveal his strategies to Korean opponents). Koreans frequently help each other out - they have each other's back regardless of their team affiliation when it comes to beating foreigners. Foreigners don't have any such synergy, in my mind. So how can foreigners ever improve their skill level without training against the hordes of devoted Koreans? Is it surprising that when I watch Demuslim get to #1 on NA ladder that he should lose to his KR opponent in an important tournament? It's not to me, because winning every game on ladder against a foreigner means nothing if you aren't improving your skill by matching up against the best in the world. "As a spectator I'd rather see the best players play" While admirable and I feel the same, it's simply not the way the majority of casual viewership feels. The average foreigner who tunes in once in a while to catch a game doesn't want to see what he/she deems as "generic" Koreans play. That person wants to see players that he/she can relate to and recognize. Someone to cheer for, like Stephano or Naniwa. Most casual viewership doesn't even play the game or know why somebody wins or loses in Starcraft. They just enjoy the thrill of the competition. And that's OK because those are the people who pay the bills. Oh I actually never knew how tight Koreans were in terms of their practicing and stuff. I just assumed that it was because they practiced like a lot. But come to think of it though, I remember in a recent tournament (the name escapes me at the moment) when it was Naniwa VS Hyun and after Hyun lost Game 2 and 3, I think sOS (I think it was him) came into his booth to give advice. But yea I understand that viewership is big since I would rather cheer for someone of my nationality and stuff. I feel like any solution given will hurt | ||
Grovbolle
Denmark3803 Posts
"People would rather watch A than B because X" when you are all just saying random shit to back up your own claim without presenting any proof or evidence. | ||
ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
On October 26 2013 11:36 learning88 wrote: And this brings me to another point (since I'm in science). Why are Koreans better than foreigners? I highly doubt it's because people born in that region are gifted with a "multitasking gene" in their DNA that makes them far superior and thus they always win. Maybe its their training regimen? I'm pretty detached from the world of progaming so I don't know how many hours Koreans practice versus how many hours foreigners practice but there's something that Koreans are doing right that foreigners are not. They're not genetically more gifted. It's the environment that makes them better than foreigners. Imagine yourself playing chess only against your brother. Neither of you could ever hope to improve. The only way to improve is to play against people that are better than you and that push you to your limits. The best thing for WCS and competitive SC2 would be if more Koreans moved to NA / EU, learned the language and played on NA / EU ladder. Korea is too small for all the Korean players, which is made evident by all the retirements lately, yet I don't see any foreigners retiring. EU and NA scene still have plenty of room for growth. Players should, at the very least, be forced to be active on ladder in region where they compete. | ||
Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
If that means burning a few bridges, so be it, well done Slasher. | ||
rivurivurivurivu
Sweden140 Posts
| ||
NightOfTheDead
Lithuania1711 Posts
On October 25 2013 13:46 Plexa wrote: qxc's opinion on WCS was interesting and well thought out. Clever guy! How increasing tournament frequency would help? He spoke only from his perspective. We had this in 2012, where there were so many tournaments every weekend, even overlapping constantly on same day. That might would have helped players somewhat, but definitely not viewership. Overall frequent tournament value decreased because people were oversaturated with content (do not confuse this with scene growth slowing down). Allocating importance of tournaments > Increasing frequency. I think Demuslim was spot on about forcing players to compete in certain region ladder to be familiar with your opponents for extended period of time and not only from VoDs. | ||
iMAniaC
Norway703 Posts
On October 26 2013 02:21 Copymizer wrote: Certainly a game crisis and decline now, lack of frequent tournaments, WCS is too long, no regionlock, dominating koreans, too little money, lack of consistency...what is actually doing good? WCS Europe! Whatever Blizzard decides to do next year, the investments they've put into WCS Europe is going to pay off. We didn't have anything like this in Europe before WCS 2013 and I, for one, am glad that we've got a league like this. The infrastructure and experience is already there, so it should only get better with time | ||
{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
TLO opinion is the one i can agree the most with. | ||
Jampackedeon
United States2053 Posts
| ||
NihilisticGod
Northern Ireland174 Posts
HuK made a great point that the first iteration of WCS was better that the subsequent seasons because of the National finals, Regional finals and then Grand Finals. Was awesome to see people compete to be the best in their respective countries (the place they were born/ live), then to be the best in their region and then to compete against the best from other regions to see who was the king of the world (when it comes to StarCraft2). | ||
| ||