After its worst year in StarCraft 2, mousesports has decided to change.
by Waxangel
Quietly hidden amidst all of WCS system changes, player retirements, Jaedong silvers, and other storylines of 2013 was the decline of mousesports. Having been a part of the big-three of international teams alongside Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid since the beginning of StarCraft 2, 2013 was a year where mouz fell to the wayside, surpassed by teams like Axiom and Acer.
So, what happened? The short answer is that they simply suffered the same fate as the entire foreign scene: They lost to Koreans. In a year where Korean progamers won every single major tournament, it was little surprise that a team that defined itself as 'not-Korean' failed to keep up. Not when their competitors were being led by elite Koreans like TaeJa, INnoVation, and Jaedong.
Back in May, mouz acquired the Spanish brothers VortiX and Lucifron, two of the top non-Korean players not signed to a "big" team. It was an obvious move for mouz, a team that had always been on the vanguard of the European scene. Starting with the mass acquisition of Brood War and WarCraft III players during the StarCraft 2 beta, mouz had rapidly built a reputation for finding and signing future European championships, with players like Morrow, Naama, ThorZaIN, and MaNa collecting silverware for the Germany-based team. Given the brothers' past success and high regard in Europe, few were surprised to see them become the newest players to don the crimson. Alongside some more speculative acquisitions in Illusion and hOpe, mouz was set for the future.
Or at least, it seemed so at the time. As it turned out, things just wouldn't pan out for mouz in 2013. Former ace MaNa saw his form drop harshly in HotS, going from championship caliber to middle-tier. Illusion and hOpe didn't quite work out as planned. Germans HasuObs and HeRoMaRinE were able to win domestic titles, but neither could make a splash in international competition. Worst of all, VortiX and Lucifron failed to pay off after looking like sure things at the time of signing. Top eight finishes were all that Lucifron could manage, whereas his brother did slightly better with a top four finish in WCS Europe. After winning multiple titles in the years past, mouz didn't even come close to sniffing a major championship in 2013.
On one hand, there seemed to be plenty of reason for mouz to stay the course. Getting wrecked by Koreans was pretty much the story for all foreigners in 2013, save a few like NaNiwa and Scarlett. Even the best prospectors don't always strike gold, and mouz could still have chalked it up as a decent year when comparing themselves to the foreigner field as a whole. There was also enough past precedent to be patient with the roster – after all ThorZaIN had taken almost a year to deliver a second major title (he delivered one immediately on signing, but only because he had been signed directly before the TSL3 finals), while MaNa took nearly two.
On the other hand, mousesports had to see the writing on the wall. With the Korean All-Kill of 2013's major events, there was no way to deny that the Korea-World skill gap was increasing. In a worrisome trend, the same standard-bearers of foreigner hope in 2012 – Stephano, NaNiwa, and Scarlett – continued to shoulder the burden in 2013. Few newcomers showed signs of being able to follow in their path. Not only that, but more Koreans were competing at foreign events than ever before. All the other foreign teams had one or more elite Koreans on their squads who received generous flight support, while the Koreans stuck on domestic teams had mastered the workings of online qualifiers and were ready to seize any opportunity. Winning a championship with a non-Korean roster had ceased to be a viable strategy.
In the end, mouz had to keep up with the Joneses. When asked for comment, mouz.Max, head coordinator of mousesport's SC2 division, said the following:
"We really liked the idea of being the only true foreign team who could compete in most tournaments. For most of the time it was very successful as well. But 2013 has shown that we can't go on with it forever. We had an eye on the Korean scene for the entire year and when we had the chance to sign Dear, we went for it. He perfectly fits into our general profile and our team. Dear was the number one on our list and our very first choice.
We want the best of both worlds, the Korean and the foreign community. This was no decision against the foreign scene or our European players. We won't abandon our hopes and goals for the foreign scene."
In happier times. -photo: silverfire
As Evil Geniuses' recent axing of Oz, aLive, and Revival reminds us, winning by itself is not especially important in esports. In such an industry, few teams made quietly winning as much a part of their identity as mouz. Though its players weren't without their own brand of unassuming charisma, mouz was never a PR machine like EG or Liquid. The fact that their players won, and won a lot, was a large part of what defined mousesports and made them notable in StarCraft 2. That, and the fact that they had no Koreans.
When push came to shove, mousesports could only preserve one part of their identity. They chose winning.
Meh, for me the identity of mouz was never the one winning international tournaments. In my opinion, they just sold their identity for a better performance in teamleagues. I don't blame them, but I don't have to like that move one bit...
I think the more Koreans that join foreign teams, the more foreigners will get to practice with Koreans and improve their skill. Like I've said before, Koreans are not born with StarCraft 2 skills...
Good pickup for Mousesports. Also it will be nice to see Dear at more foreign events now.
On December 20 2013 07:29 DinoMight wrote: I think the more Koreans that join foreign teams, the more foreigners will get to practice with Koreans and improve their skill. Like I've said before, Koreans are not born with StarCraft 2 skills...
Good pickup for Mousesports. Also it will be nice to see Dear at more foreign events now.
pretty much this. I think this was a good move. As mentioned in the article, Mouz still has to survive as well and Dear joining the team will give me a top tier protoss player improving all of the team's members. Dear going to more foreign events should be good as well. Jaedong on a foreign team made a big difference in his improvements.
On December 20 2013 07:29 DinoMight wrote: I think the more Koreans that join foreign teams, the more foreigners will get to practice with Koreans and improve their skill. Like I've said before, Koreans are not born with StarCraft 2 skills...
Good pickup for Mousesports. Also it will be nice to see Dear at more foreign events now.
Koreans in foreigner teams = practice for foreigners is a myth. Stop saying that. Both the Koreans and the foreigners do 99% of their practice time on ladder.
On December 20 2013 07:29 DinoMight wrote: I think the more Koreans that join foreign teams, the more foreigners will get to practice with Koreans and improve their skill. Like I've said before, Koreans are not born with StarCraft 2 skills...
Good pickup for Mousesports. Also it will be nice to see Dear at more foreign events now.
This isn't true at all.
People have been saying this since forever and despite the fact that more and more Koreans are on foreign teams than ever before the gap between foreigners and Koreans just gets bigger and bigger.
I had always hoped the mouz would be the one to help the foreign scene to become competitive again funded by local sponsors because of their dominance in the local scene (like in Germany and Spain, though the latter scene is still very small), so much for my hopes.
Oh well, I still wish you all well in your future way and I hope it will work out as you planned, mouz.
On December 20 2013 07:44 JustPassingBy wrote: I had always hoped the mouz would be the one to help the foreign scene to become competitive again funded by local sponsors because of their dominance in the local scene (like in Germany and Spain, though the latter scene is still very small), so much for my hopes.
Oh well, I still wish you all well in your future way and I hope it will work out as you planned, mouz.
The foreign scene is never going to be competitive again (was it ever?) Koreans will always dominate this game.
As Evil Geniuses' recent axing of Oz, aLive, and Revival reminds us, winning by itself is not especially important in esports.
Which is exactly what is wrong with the foreign Starcraft scene and I would also (at least partially) blame it for foreigners being unable to match Koreans.
On December 20 2013 07:29 DinoMight wrote: I think the more Koreans that join foreign teams, the more foreigners will get to practice with Koreans and improve their skill. Like I've said before, Koreans are not born with StarCraft 2 skills...
Good pickup for Mousesports. Also it will be nice to see Dear at more foreign events now.
This isn't true at all.
People have been saying this since forever and despite the fact that more and more Koreans are on foreign teams than ever before the gap between foreigners and Koreans just gets bigger and bigger.
well, most koreans who join a foreign team stay in korea and practicing cross server doesnt make much sense.
On December 20 2013 07:43 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
On December 20 2013 07:29 DinoMight wrote: I think the more Koreans that join foreign teams, the more foreigners will get to practice with Koreans and improve their skill. Like I've said before, Koreans are not born with StarCraft 2 skills...
Good pickup for Mousesports. Also it will be nice to see Dear at more foreign events now.
This isn't true at all.
People have been saying this since forever and despite the fact that more and more Koreans are on foreign teams than ever before the gap between foreigners and Koreans just gets bigger and bigger.
well, most koreans who join a foreign team stay in korea and practicing cross server doesnt make much sense.
Agreed, so let's drop the talk about how foreigners will benefit practise wise if their teams sign a player living in Korea. Besides, why would a team order his players in Korea to train with players outside of Korea? that would obviously benefit the other player and a team plays no favourites.
Hopefully they become better at marketing their players aswell. Quite ballsy to aquire a Protoss, at least Korean Terrans have something going for them (As Terrans aren`t made in other countries atm).
As Evil Geniuses' recent axing of Oz, aLive, and Revival reminds us, winning by itself is not especially important in esports.
Which is exactly what is wrong with the foreign Starcraft scene and I would also (at least partially) blame it for foreigners being unable to match Koreans.
Thats a really bad example. EGs brand is huge, they dont need to win anymore in order to stay relevant. Other teams that are trying to establish their brands needs to win badly.
As Evil Geniuses' recent axing of Oz, aLive, and Revival reminds us, winning by itself is not especially important in esports.
Which is exactly what is wrong with the foreign Starcraft scene and I would also (at least partially) blame it for foreigners being unable to match Koreans.
Thats a really bad example. EGs brand is huge, they dont need to win anymore in order to stay relevant. Other teams that are trying to establish their brands needs to win badly.
I shall repeat myself: Which is exactly what is wrong with the foreign Starcraft scene and I would also (at least partially) blame it for foreigners being unable to match Koreans.
On December 20 2013 07:44 JustPassingBy wrote: I had always hoped the mouz would be the one to help the foreign scene to become competitive again funded by local sponsors because of their dominance in the local scene (like in Germany and Spain, though the latter scene is still very small), so much for my hopes.
Oh well, I still wish you all well in your future way and I hope it will work out as you planned, mouz.
I don't think that "only foreigners/no Koreans" was ever there dogma. It's something that happened along the way. They weren't willing to put that much money out for top transfers and they were knowledgeable enough not to sign random Koreans just to depart with them six months later with nothing notable achieved during that time.
I don't think it will change much for the rest of the squad. VortiX, LucifroN and HeroMarine seem to prefer ladder anyways and Dear will want to concentrate on Korea. The Germans will still want to play EPS and the Spaniards do their thing (something between mediocre results to being Top foreigners). I don't think mouz will start ignoring oppurtunities to sign foreign talents (besides budget considerations) but it's not like European talent is sprouting everywhere.
As Evil Geniuses' recent axing of Oz, aLive, and Revival reminds us, winning by itself is not especially important in esports.
Which is exactly what is wrong with the foreign Starcraft scene and I would also (at least partially) blame it for foreigners being unable to match Koreans.
Thats a really bad example. EGs brand is huge, they dont need to win anymore in order to stay relevant. Other teams that are trying to establish their brands needs to win badly.
I shall repeat myself: Which is exactly what is wrong with the foreign Starcraft scene and I would also (at least partially) blame it for foreigners being unable to match Koreans.
But they had to win to get there. Idra used to be really good, Puma won a shitton of foreign tournaments and of course the infamous poach of the best foreigner from the most popular team. Winning might not be that important anymore for EG but there is a reason why they picked up Puma and so many other teams picked up skilled Koreans and it sure as hell aint for marketing purposes.
I miss the times when we had two separate pools of players, when foreigners would fight against each other on regular basis and only in the biggest tournaments they would have to face some strong Koreans.
It's game over now, whatever is going on Acer will send Innovation, EG - Jeadong, TL - Teaja and now mouz with Dear. And if that's not enought Pol, Hyun and Stardust will come and join the fight.
I like all these guys, but somehow the way things are now make the competition less exciting.
Dear's my favorite Protoss player so watching him in foreign tournaments will be great. I hope to see more Jaedong, Innovation and Dear at those tournaments, battling it out. Should be great to watch in 2014
On December 20 2013 08:27 Chaggi wrote: Dear's my favorite Protoss player so watching him in foreign tournaments will be great. I hope to see more Jaedong, Innovation and Dear at those tournaments, battling it out. Should be great to watch in 2014
Don't worry then, you'll get that in 2014. At EVERY tournament in 2014. RIP foreign sc2.
All those koreans make the foreign scene more interesting. This doesn't mean the foreign scene is terrible, but now with inno, dear etc will be amazing. I don't see the participation of koreans to foreign tourneys as a bad thing. If they are better they deserve to participate and win. It's time for the foreigners to practice very hard in 2014!
On December 20 2013 08:27 Chaggi wrote: Dear's my favorite Protoss player so watching him in foreign tournaments will be great. I hope to see more Jaedong, Innovation and Dear at those tournaments, battling it out. Should be great to watch in 2014
Don't worry then, you'll get that in 2014. At EVERY tournament in 2014. RIP foreign sc2.
is this an american zerg player thing? where is this whining and bitching really gonna get you? maybe it would be a better idea to practice or watch VODs or something. or you could find a more reliable way of earning money if you're really that worried. it's also a bit of an overreaction to say "RIP foreign sc2" because one player was signed to one team.
Given the brothers' past success and high regard in Europe, few were surprised to see them become the newest players to don the crimson
Either my memory is acting up or you are fiddling with history, Wax.
I remember the signing of luci and vortix to be quite suprising too, seeing how they declined so many offers from other teams in the past. That said, they did fit well within the mouz team.
Also, big fan of this signing. All teams, korean and foreign, competing for the best players is a good thing for the scene and the players. Acer signed the robot on results, Mouz is signing Dear on results. Other teams should take notice and start doing the same instead of retaining or recruiting solely based on marketability and fanbase.
On December 20 2013 08:27 Chaggi wrote: Dear's my favorite Protoss player so watching him in foreign tournaments will be great. I hope to see more Jaedong, Innovation and Dear at those tournaments, battling it out. Should be great to watch in 2014
Don't worry then, you'll get that in 2014. At EVERY tournament in 2014. RIP foreign sc2.
EU/NA players with even a modicum of success or potential get contracts the average korean pro can only dream of. How about they actually step up their game? Plenty of foreigners have shown good progression, it's just that for all the 'pro's' we have only a very small number of them are truly dedicated. Instead of getting the practice they need in a korean setting all that happens is EU/NA players staying in their own house, playing ladder and streaming. There's no effort (at least not visible) to professionalize, to emulate the system that works. If the koreans show us anything, its that you actually have to live the game 24/7 to be great at it, which is a sacrifice few western players seem willing to make. That's probably a good choice to make, but you can't have it both ways and at this point, foreign players (and teams) have noone but themselves to blame.
On December 20 2013 07:44 JustPassingBy wrote: I had always hoped the mouz would be the one to help the foreign scene to become competitive again funded by local sponsors because of their dominance in the local scene (like in Germany and Spain, though the latter scene is still very small), so much for my hopes.
Oh well, I still wish you all well in your future way and I hope it will work out as you planned, mouz.
I don't think that "only foreigners/no Koreans" was ever there dogma. It's something that happened along the way. They weren't willing to put that much money out for top transfers and they were knowledgeable enough not to sign random Koreans just to depart with them six months later with nothing notable achieved during that time.
I don't think it will change much for the rest of the squad. VortiX, LucifroN and HeroMarine seem to prefer ladder anyways and Dear will want to concentrate on Korea. The Germans will still want to play EPS and the Spaniards do their thing (something between mediocre results to being Top foreigners). I don't think mouz will start ignoring oppurtunities to sign foreign talents (besides budget considerations) but it's not like European talent is sprouting everywhere.
Meh, I never claimed that his was supposed to be their dogma, it's just how I viewed them. As I said, I respect their choice, but I had hoped for them to use their funds to support up and coming players, even with the low chance of success, similar to how they did with Heromarine and Hasuobs (though this was a long time ago in a different game). And you can help talent to spout by creating the right environment, it's what Korean teams have been doing since the dawn of (eSport) time with their team houses.
On December 20 2013 09:03 JustPassingBy wrote: Meh, I never claimed that his was supposed to be their dogma, it's just how I viewed them.
Yeah, was just trying to bring the discussion forward.
On December 20 2013 09:03 JustPassingBy wrote: And you can help talent to spout by creating the right environment, it's what Korean teams have been doing since the dawn of (eSport) time with their team houses.
That's correct, but to be frank that's not something that Europeans teams (can) do (on their own).
Edit: What they did with Hasu or HeroMarine they still can do even with very, very small budget left.
On December 20 2013 09:03 JustPassingBy wrote: And you can help talent to spout by creating the right environment, it's what Korean teams have been doing since the dawn of (eSport) time with their team houses.
That's correct, but to be frank that's not something that Europeans teams (can) do (on their own).
Well, I certainly won't start claiming that I know what team can and cannot do. It's just... I don't even see them (the big teams) trying... I really hope that I'm just too fucking blind and that somebody can correct me on this one...
Mana was kicking so much ass in the early weeks of HotS too, it sucks that it didn't pan out into a championship. I always liked that mouz was a haven for foreign juggernauts, but none of their old world class players look as good as they did in Wings
Lucifron's HotS career died the moment the Hellbat was nerfed. A lot of his victories (especially in ATC) relied on dropping that unit on enemy mineral lines.
As for VortiX, he was a bona fide patchzerg who has not yet managed to secure another big breakout performance.
On December 20 2013 07:29 DinoMight wrote: I think the more Koreans that join foreign teams, the more foreigners will get to practice with Koreans and improve their skill. Like I've said before, Koreans are not born with StarCraft 2 skills...
Good pickup for Mousesports. Also it will be nice to see Dear at more foreign events now.
Koreans in foreigner teams = practice for foreigners is a myth. Stop saying that. Both the Koreans and the foreigners do 99% of their practice time on ladder.
Everyone has the impression that Koreans joining foreign teams means better practice partners for foreigners, but that's not always the case. Liquid for example, does not have a team house and none of the players have lived together since oGs-TL and EG-TL houses. Of course there was a time when Jinro, HerO, and TLO got a house together in Korea, but can you really count that as a gaming house?
Of course we can't really say how much practicing goes on behind the scenes when the pros aren't streaming and tweeting. You never know!
I think it was time for mouz to sign a Korean player if they want to come back as a top foreign team. And acquiring Dear is a great way to boost your way up to that. But I don't think that acquiring Dear will help the players from mouz nor the foreign scene unless mouz builds a team house in Europe and that Dear comes to practice in Europe on the EU ladder. But that could also cause Dear's level to decrease in the long run…
On December 20 2013 07:29 DinoMight wrote: I think the more Koreans that join foreign teams, the more foreigners will get to practice with Koreans and improve their skill. Like I've said before, Koreans are not born with StarCraft 2 skills...
Good pickup for Mousesports. Also it will be nice to see Dear at more foreign events now.
Koreans in foreigner teams = practice for foreigners is a myth. Stop saying that. Both the Koreans and the foreigners do 99% of their practice time on ladder.
If that's true then no one practices more than 5 hours a day, and almost everyone practices under 4.
edit:
http://www.sc2ranks.com/ and sort by wins. It takes around 4-5 hours to play 20 games, and the season started around 40 days ago.
Notice that everyone has under 800 games played, and the majority of players have much less than that. The GM average seems to be under 400 games, which is around 10 ladder games a day.
So either progamers play lots of customs, or they practice much, much less than 8 hours a day.
On December 20 2013 08:27 Chaggi wrote: Dear's my favorite Protoss player so watching him in foreign tournaments will be great. I hope to see more Jaedong, Innovation and Dear at those tournaments, battling it out. Should be great to watch in 2014
Yup. I watch SC2 like I watch basketball. I watch WCS Korea for the NBA-style best of the best against each other. I watch foreign tournaments for the same reason I watch the US national team, to see one dominant country beat the crap out of hapless foreigners.
On December 20 2013 07:29 DinoMight wrote: I think the more Koreans that join foreign teams, the more foreigners will get to practice with Koreans and improve their skill. Like I've said before, Koreans are not born with StarCraft 2 skills...
Good pickup for Mousesports. Also it will be nice to see Dear at more foreign events now.
Koreans in foreigner teams = practice for foreigners is a myth. Stop saying that. Both the Koreans and the foreigners do 99% of their practice time on ladder.
If that's true then no one practices more than 5 hours a day, and almost everyone practices under 4.
edit:
http://www.sc2ranks.com/ and sort by wins. It takes around 4-5 hours to play 20 games, and the season started around 40 days ago.
Notice that everyone has under 800 games played, and the majority of players have much less than that. The GM average seems to be under 400 games, which is around 10 ladder games a day.
So either progamers play lots of customs, or they practice much, much less than 8 hours a day.
On December 20 2013 07:29 DinoMight wrote: I think the more Koreans that join foreign teams, the more foreigners will get to practice with Koreans and improve their skill. Like I've said before, Koreans are not born with StarCraft 2 skills...
Good pickup for Mousesports. Also it will be nice to see Dear at more foreign events now.
Koreans in foreigner teams = practice for foreigners is a myth. Stop saying that. Both the Koreans and the foreigners do 99% of their practice time on ladder.
If that's true then no one practices more than 5 hours a day, and almost everyone practices under 4.
edit:
http://www.sc2ranks.com/ and sort by wins. It takes around 4-5 hours to play 20 games, and the season started around 40 days ago.
Notice that everyone has under 800 games played, and the majority of players have much less than that. The GM average seems to be under 400 games, which is around 10 ladder games a day.
So either progamers play lots of customs, or they practice much, much less than 8 hours a day.
Citation needed
sc2gears multi-rep analysis shows average game is 12-15 minutes real time. even if people play really long games it would be like a 20 minute real time average, which still puts 800 games a season (which no one in top GM has) at well under 8 hours a day of practice.
On December 20 2013 07:29 DinoMight wrote: I think the more Koreans that join foreign teams, the more foreigners will get to practice with Koreans and improve their skill. Like I've said before, Koreans are not born with StarCraft 2 skills...
Good pickup for Mousesports. Also it will be nice to see Dear at more foreign events now.
Koreans in foreigner teams = practice for foreigners is a myth. Stop saying that. Both the Koreans and the foreigners do 99% of their practice time on ladder.
what ? i know like as example cj make 95% inhouse training so why you say such bs ?
On December 20 2013 08:27 Chaggi wrote: Dear's my favorite Protoss player so watching him in foreign tournaments will be great. I hope to see more Jaedong, Innovation and Dear at those tournaments, battling it out. Should be great to watch in 2014
Don't worry then, you'll get that in 2014. At EVERY tournament in 2014. RIP foreign sc2.
ESF teams stepped their game up when Kespa entered the picture why do you have to roll over and die without putting up a fight?
Oooh, that's the greatest free-fall I've seen on Aligulac. Just amazing, it's almost completely vertical, as almost all the games are 0-X losses in an offline environment.
On December 20 2013 07:29 DinoMight wrote: I think the more Koreans that join foreign teams, the more foreigners will get to practice with Koreans and improve their skill. Like I've said before, Koreans are not born with StarCraft 2 skills...
Good pickup for Mousesports. Also it will be nice to see Dear at more foreign events now.
Koreans in foreigner teams = practice for foreigners is a myth. Stop saying that. Both the Koreans and the foreigners do 99% of their practice time on ladder.
If that's true then no one practices more than 5 hours a day, and almost everyone practices under 4.
edit:
http://www.sc2ranks.com/ and sort by wins. It takes around 4-5 hours to play 20 games, and the season started around 40 days ago.
Notice that everyone has under 800 games played, and the majority of players have much less than that. The GM average seems to be under 400 games, which is around 10 ladder games a day.
So either progamers play lots of customs, or they practice much, much less than 8 hours a day.
Citation needed
sc2gears multi-rep analysis shows average game is 12-15 minutes real time. even if people play really long games it would be like a 20 minute real time average, which still puts 800 games a season (which no one in top GM has) at well under 8 hours a day of practice.
Thanks for your useless comment, by the way.
I won't even begin to discuss why a call for a source backing up a claim isn't a useless comment...
Talking about Lucifron / Vortix, are there any semi-big big tournaments in Spain apart from what ESL and DH organize from time to time? Liquipedia only lists LVP, but the last tournament in that series concludes over half a year ago.
Oooh, that's the greatest free-fall I've seen on Aligulac. Just amazing, it's almost completely vertical, as almost all the games are 0-X losses in an offline environment.
It is a great pick up but i don't except that Dear will train much with his new teammates. I sure hope they will do, or they will at least talk about strategy and exchange buildorders, but the language barrier is quite high, especially when Dear just about now starts to learn english. but we will see what the future holds, nevertheless a great pick up for mouz which hopefully will pay off.
On December 20 2013 21:43 Faust852 wrote: I heard that Lucifron will retire end of month. MaNa will be kicked as well (that why XMG.MaNa soon). Mouz will recrute more korean players now.
On December 20 2013 21:43 Faust852 wrote: I heard that Lucifron will retire end of month. MaNa will be kicked as well (that why XMG.MaNa soon). Mouz will recrute more korean players now.
Uh, okay. You "heard"?
If you don't trust me it's ok. We'll see at the end of the month but i'm pretty sure my source are ok.
On December 20 2013 21:43 Faust852 wrote: I heard that Lucifron will retire end of month. MaNa will be kicked as well (that why XMG.MaNa soon). Mouz will recrute more korean players now.
Uh, okay. You "heard"?
If you don't trust me it's ok. We'll see at the end of the month but i'm pretty sure my source are ok.
If you are right, then that would be real sad if they kept their current foreigner lineup + Dear, i mean that would easily (if not already) make them a top4 teams with Liquid, EG and Acer
But if they get more koreans then they would still be it
Quietly hidden amidst all of WCS system changes, player retirements, Jaedong silvers, and other storylines of 2013 was the decline of mousesports. Having been a part of the big-three of international teams alongside Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid since the beginning of StarCraft 2, 2013
I know that historical revisionism has resulted in "Teamliquid/Evilgeniuses" as being seen as the great big foreigner clash and all, but can we talk about the fact that Dignitas, with Naniwa/Select/Show actually was a pretty scary team for a while? It irks me. :/
Lucifron was always 90% hype and 10% results anyway.
His results have never been anything to give much of a shit about, even at his absolute peak he was a top 5 foreigner at best and even that's pretty debatable.
Vortix was probably the best patch Zerg, he wasnt a bad player like JohnnyRecco but he looked far better than he ever was because of how imbalanced Zerg was at that time.
Good luck to Dear though I don't really see mousesports as a fitting team for him. I understand that a lot of Koreans would like to play on foreigner teams but I just can't see how Dear fits into mouse.
On December 21 2013 08:40 Soohyung wrote: Good luck to Dear though I don't really see mousesports as a fitting team for him. I understand that a lot of Koreans would like to play on foreigner teams but I just can't see how Dear fits into mouse.
I agree -.-
STX died...
Bogus to MMAs team? Yey! Trap to IM? Yey! Dear to mouz? Eh? :S
Hasu and HeroMarine + Vortix imho can definitly compete on korean level, but top 4 is all they could achieve. And we see with awsome players like TLO that, although very good, foreigner can't bring up the consistency required
On December 21 2013 08:40 Soohyung wrote: Good luck to Dear though I don't really see mousesports as a fitting team for him. I understand that a lot of Koreans would like to play on foreigner teams but I just can't see how Dear fits into mouse.
why is that? I think he will fit into mouz like he would into any other foreigner team. looking forward to it
That is a nice and understanding signing, as the opportunity showed itself! They managed to be one map-win away from top 4 in ATC season 2. This will bring more power to Mouz in team leagues, but I don't think it will make them contenders to win leagues, unless if we see the Duran brothers hit their late 2012-early 2013 stride again.
Good pick Mousesport, just don't make it a habit to pick up koreans!
On December 22 2013 08:27 JKM wrote: That is a nice and understanding signing, as the opportunity showed itself! They managed to be one map-win away from top 4 in ATC season 2. This will bring more power to Mouz in team leagues, but I don't think it will make them contenders to win leagues, unless if we see the Duran brothers hit their late 2012-early 2013 stride again.
Good pick Mousesport, just don't make it a habit to pick up koreans!
Why would Mouz ever depend on Lucifron and Vortix when they have quite possibly the best protoss in the world playing for them?
On December 21 2013 08:40 Soohyung wrote: Good luck to Dear though I don't really see mousesports as a fitting team for him. I understand that a lot of Koreans would like to play on foreigner teams but I just can't see how Dear fits into mouse.
why is that? I think he will fit into mouz like he would into any other foreigner team. looking forward to it
In the end it will be so sad like Mouse and their CS team earlier this year and the CS is still not where Mouse wants/has to be.
On December 20 2013 21:43 Faust852 wrote: I heard that Lucifron will retire end of month. MaNa will be kicked as well (that why XMG.MaNa soon). Mouz will recrute more korean players now.
On December 20 2013 07:44 JustPassingBy wrote: I had always hoped the mouz would be the one to help the foreign scene to become competitive again funded by local sponsors because of their dominance in the local scene (like in Germany and Spain, though the latter scene is still very small), so much for my hopes.
Oh well, I still wish you all well in your future way and I hope it will work out as you planned, mouz.
The foreign scene is never going to be competitive again (was it ever?) Koreans will always dominate this game.
Well this statement could be completely true, or completely untrue at the same time. Certainly sponsorship has a ton to do with it, but that goes hand in hand with how teams present both themselves and esports. The problem isn't that koreans are naturally better, the problem is they have more infrastructure to identify and nurture talent. Simply put, until foreigner teams model the korean ones in how they operate, then yes on the whole foreigners will never be competitive. The simple fact is, results don't lie. The Korean teams get results because they demand them. I will use an easy sports comparison here.
Do you see professional sports players practicing side by side with their farm teams? No you don't. The farm teams are there for nothing more than to foster early talent. Once that talent shows promise, then they get moved to the minor leagues, they continue to grow there and eventually if they get good enough moved to the majors.
You see the Korean teams can be compared to the top tier sports leagues. They have the practice facilities, they have the coaches and they have the money because of the previous 2. As a result they work harder and longer and the players there know what is expected of them. This results in consistent performance from any player emerging from this pool. As it currently stands, at BEST the foreigners represent the minor leagues, at worst the farm leagues. Oh sure you might see someone go on a short streak here and there, but the reality is those are simply players who are ready to move up to the next level of training. If they are left there, they will stagnate (as history has proven). The reasoning is simple, the foreigner teams don't know what it takes to continue pushing someone at that level higher. Now of course it is a bit of a catch 22 for the foreigner teams to grow into a top tier team. You see, this all requires money and sponsors aren't willing to part with money unless they see results, or at least they aren't willing to part with it for long. At some point some team has to bite the bullet and make a serious investment in the facilities, coaching and players necessary to capture the kind of attention the korean teams get. Until that happens, foreigners will continue down the current path of getting rolled by the koreans outside the odd "Fluke". I should state that 6-12 months isn't an investment, that is throwing money at something and hoping to get lucky. It is going to take Years of investing and building before results are borne. Any team serious about taking on the machine that is the korean teams, realistically should plan on operating at a loss for 3-5 years minimum. There will be quite a bit of attrition in players. Most who think they have what it takes to be the best, simply don't. Why do you think so few foreigners last over in korea when they go over there? It is an incredible commitment to be the absolute best and talent alone doesn't cut it. The best sports players in the world are so because they spend more time "Productively" practicing than anyone else.
Seems like a bold and risky step - yet, it wasn't. Investing in the protoss side of things, saddened me a little as I considered mouse being already pretty close to protoss perfection. So, I wished they had put the money on some terran know-how to straighten that lack of skill and furthermore build upon their new rising star HeRoMaRiNe instead of pampering the established forces, toss forces. ~just my 2 cents~
On December 25 2013 20:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: Seems like a bold and risky step - yet, it wasn't. Investing in the protoss side of things, saddened me a little as I considered mouse being already pretty close to protoss perfection. So, I wished they had put the money on some terran know-how to straighten that lack of skill and furthermore build upon their new rising star HeRoMaRiNe instead of pampering the established forces, toss forces. ~just my 2 cents~
Mana & Hasu = protoss perfection...? MaNa hasn't accomplished anything in ages and Hasu has always been average.