"Since the most recent ladder season began, we’ve heard an enormous amount of feedback on Protoss strength. While the results data we’re getting isn’t so clear due to not as many tournament games going on these days, we do agree that other races can’t go on offense as easily as we’d like against Protoss early on.
As we prepare this next balance test map, we’d like to hear your thoughts on:
Photon overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 40
We believe the the Mothership Core is very well-rounded unit. We like the early aggressive options the Mothership Core provides, such as being able to recall back at the right moments, but we wonder whether the defensive nature of the Mothership Core can be toned down a bit. We’d like to see more options for Terran and Zerg to attack, skirmish, or harass a Protoss player who plays defensively.
Roach burrow move speed to 2.25
Of the various changes we made in the last balance patch, this one seems to be the one that didn’t do much. We’ve rarely see any roach burrow-move games, and we’d like to bump this up a bit more with the hope that we’d see it. Considering the few games we did see this strategy being used, they were really fun and different compared to other strategies that Zerg use. Perhaps we can move in small steps in order to see some more burrow move speed usage in various matchups.
The next step for Terran mech
We believe we can push mech usage more as well. Some options we’re looking at here are: higher armored damage for siege tanks, easier access to EMP when going mech (such as building the energy upgrade into the unit), buffing mech air, and so on. However, this is the area in which we’re the least certain. Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated.
Please keep in mind none of this is even close to final. We truly appreciate your feedback, and we’ll continue to carefully consider what you’ve got to say before we publish the next balance test map.
As we gather more feedback we'll try to tune these and possibly additional changes before we start on the next balance test map.
Good stuff, not sure about mech though. It's already very strong versus T and Z, maybe a change that makes it better vs P only like easier EMP access is ok.
I'm a Master League mech player and I fail to see how +armored damage is going to help at all, Tanks are pretty good against armored already (except Immortals), it's just that they are horrible against everything else.
On January 03 2014 07:48 Musicus wrote: Good stuff, not sure about mech though. It's already very strong versus T and Z, maybe a change that makes it better vs P only like easier EMP access is ok.
It's only good vs zergs that don't know how to play against it (which is the same as mech being bad), it just happens that 90% of the ladder population is clueless on how to face mech, the few who actually "get it" always get easy wins off of mech.
On January 03 2014 07:48 fried_rice wrote: I'm a Master League mech player and I fail to see how +armored damage is going to help at all, Tanks are pretty good against armored already (except Immortals), it's just that they are horrible against everything else.
I think he was meaning higher armored damage vs immortals. Strelok (I think) proposed a cool idea for siege tanks to keep the same damage but to split the DPS into two separate shots, so that the immortal shield would take less tank shots to break.
On January 03 2014 07:49 Extenz wrote: buffing mech air? gg zergs
That will never happen, already OP if they get there, if anything zerg anti air needs a buff against both other races. Pretty sure they will receive enough feedback and they will trash this idea instantly.
On January 03 2014 07:49 Extenz wrote: buffing mech air? gg zergs
That will never happen, already OP if they get there, if anything zerg anti air needs a buff against both other races. Pretty sure they will receive enough feedback and they will trash this idea instantly.
"If they get there" is not even an option vs zergs who know what they are doing. And I hope they actually buff mech anti-air(read anti-tempest)if they want to buff anything
Photon overcharge nerf is great. I feel like faster burrow roach speed is kind of unnecessary... I don't want the game to keep going in the "make every unit faster" direction.
On January 03 2014 07:48 Musicus wrote: Good stuff, not sure about mech though. It's already very strong versus T and Z, maybe a change that makes it better vs P only like easier EMP access is ok.
It's only good vs zergs that don't know how to play against it (which is the same as mech being bad), it just happens that 90% of the ladder population is clueless on how to face mech, the few who actually "get it" always get easy wins off of mech.
Hm, that's a fair point, but I think the few terrans that play it haven't perfected their mech play vs zerg either. I think mech is so map dependent that just the maps alone can decide if mech is viable or not. On some maps it can be so OP and on some it just crumbles, but I don't think you can say it's bad at all. You just shouldn't try to make it work on every map.
I think the PO duration nerf is not enough, maybe 30 seconds.. as for the terran mech buffs /emp?! I have no idea since nothing concrete was presented. PS: Welcome to Mech Air, have a pleasant flight! Oh David ... David ...
i normally dont post on balance stuff. but honestly if they think just cause photon overchage to 40 secs instead of 60 gonna fix something they completly wrong. u cant even bait photon overchage now days because if your reaper scouts stargate or twilight u cant move out. simple as that the only time u can move out with bio is either when u have 2 medivacs or when u scout a robo + forge than u can bait overcharge. so in all honestly this changes makes 0 difference from tvp point of view
Photon nerf makes sense. It did seem shockingly long at first. Having it shorter now would be logical. It still allows defense of boosted medivacs without defending every other pressure/all-in too well.
The issue with photon overcharge is so not the duration. It is the fact that protoss gets it by investing into a gate + core, which you'd do anyways any game, and then pay 100 gas and mins. I'd make the overcharge and recall an upgrade at the cyber core or citadel of adun.
Also loving their logic: Randomly buff something, not everybode uses it all the time asap, buff it even more. Dat game balancing.
Hmm. Not sure why roaches need another buff. Also, this potential buff to mech air could create some serious problems in late game TvZ where terran is already strong.
So those two changes seem unnecessary.
As far as PO nerf goes, I guess it is ok it will maybe enable some early aggression against protoss, although I feel like MSC used in offense is bigger problem so I would rather see a time warp and sight radius nerf of some sort.
guys, have you actually tried meching versus toss? I've been looking at Furbibord (or however you spell that) and his replays and that actually looks pretty strong. Tanks and hellbats don't give a fuck about anything, including EMP'd immortals, engaging 3 collosi without vikings and winning convincingly, zealots melt, stalkers are still bad and healed hellbats don't give a shit about storm either.
blink stalker all-ins are easily held since you are makings tanks anyway and if you scout it you can still open with reactored marines before you switch to mech. his build contains a turret for early oracles so he's safe for all (current) all-ins.
I haven't tried it myself yet because of carpal tunnel, but from what I've seen I don't really see how mech should be stronger? Could someone that has tried it explain please how mech is still too weak vs protoss?
Photon overcharge nerf : Finally ! It is time the hypocrisy stops and its time to allow us to pressure protoss early game ! No more fucking storm rush while camping your nexus ! (still need more nerf, gogog 30 sec )
That's hardly a nerf to overcharge at all, but at least it's "something". Burrow roaches are already good, they just aren't in fashion. Mech damage to armored doesn't seem like the problem..
Honestly, with the amount of blink stalker allins we've already seen in a few days of proleague I'd rather have them focus on that. Two base blink with MSC and time warp support is a far bigger issue than any slight timing window this PO nerf could compensate for.
I dont know if the Photon Overcharge change will affect anything in TvP, it'll still be there for major fights, and you cant really move out unless you know theres no Blink/Oracle attack coming early. Cant bait it out if you cant leave because a flying racecar is about to enter your SCV line. But atleast they're doing something for a change.
I still wish the Oracle to be reverted, it just makes no sense.
Buffing Terran Mech would be nice to see, but I feel like free energy upgrade is going to make SCV pull timings even stronger. Buffing Terran Air would open another balance issue with TvZ ultra-lategame. Higher armored damage is something I dont really understand, unless its the change Goody suggested with dual shots instead of a single shot, the immortal still shits all over tanks, even with higher Armor damage, but I guess it'd help vs. Roach timings/blink attacks.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Bagi wrote: Honestly, with the amount of blink stalker allins we've already seen in a few days of proleague I'd rather have them focus on that. Two base blink with MSC and time warp support is a far bigger issue than any slight timing window this PO nerf could compensate for.
On December 31 2013 11:10 Mintie wrote: You let the Reaper scout your base
With my build, it doesn't matter if the opponent knows. The timing was messed up though, because he delayed my expansion.
Thats a quote from a postgame interview in Proleague, and it scares the shit out of me.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Bagi wrote: Honestly, with the amount of blink stalker allins we've already seen in a few days of proleague I'd rather have them focus on that. Two base blink with MSC and time warp support is a far bigger issue than any slight timing window this PO nerf could compensate for.
On December 31 2013 11:10 Mintie wrote: You let the Reaper scout your base
With my build, it doesn't matter if the opponent knows. The timing was messed up though, because he delayed my expansion.
Thats a quote from a postgame interview in Proleague, and it scares the shit out of me.
Your quotation is more of a "i am so good I win anyways" to boost the player's image and make him look more confident than anything else. If you scout it literally the second blink starts you can easily go tanks and place all the bunkers you need in time.
1 minute nexus overcharge is CRUCIAL in defending a lot of PvP cheese. I have a DT build that I do as a response to 4 gate, for example. DTs come out right as the overcharge ends. If that ovecharge were to be say 20 seconds shorter, he'd unpower all my gateways before the Dark Shrine could finish.
I don't think it will help so much in the other matchups, to be honest. 40 seconds into a Photon Overcharge the Nexus is dead or the things attacking it are dead/have left. And the only time I use it against Zerg is when they do a 2 base ling allin against a gateway expand or something really cheesy like that which almost never happens.
Also I don't think tanks need to do more damage. I think perhaps easier access to EMP? Or just ways of defending against Zealot harass / Blink early on. But late game Mech is pretty strong and doesn't need a buff. It will throw off TvT and TvZ a lot I think.
Should increase energy requirement for all mother-ship core spells, and nerf all of the spells as well, radius, duration etc, should also nerf the oracle or give terran turret without eng bay. Remove ghost energy upgrade and give tanks + vs protoss shields.
giving tanks + damage vs armored would be retarded
I don't think it was Strelok who mentioned Siege Tank shots being split in two. I think it was Goody or Happy. Maybe if it did two shots of 17+17 armored, so that it still took an upgrade to 1-shot Zerglings, but also did 20 damage against Immortals, that could be ideal. It would also be greatly improved if the two shots were spaced apart either .4687 cells, or 0.2343 cells, so that they made something of a filled-in infinity symbol shape. It would definitely improve their use against Roach-Hydra and against Stalker balls. Even in defensive, non-committal applications, a couple Siege Tanks would absolutely neuter Stalker all-ins, unless they were microed absolutely amazingly.
On January 03 2014 08:12 DinoMight wrote: 1 minute nexus overcharge is CRUCIAL in defending a lot of PvP cheese. I have a DT build that I do as a response to 4 gate, for example. DTs come out right as the overcharge ends. If that ovecharge were to be say 20 seconds shorter, he'd unpower all my gateways before the Dark Shrine could finish.
What if Photon Overcharge did 20+10 armored, so that stalkers could be focus-fired more effectively? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't early-game Protoss attacks more dependent on Stalkers than Terran is dependent on Marauders and Zerg is dependent on Roaches?
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
On January 03 2014 07:48 fried_rice wrote: I'm a Master League mech player and I fail to see how +armored damage is going to help at all, Tanks are pretty good against armored already (except Immortals), it's just that they are horrible against everything else.
I think he was meaning higher armored damage vs immortals. Strelok (I think) proposed a cool idea for siege tanks to keep the same damage but to split the DPS into two separate shots, so that the immortal shield would take less tank shots to break.
Just guessing though.
I am pretty sure it was Goody. There is nothing indicating that DK meant immortals. He says "armored".
On January 03 2014 08:14 Pontius Pirate wrote: I don't think it was Strelok who mentioned Siege Tank shots being split in two. I think it was Goody or Happy. Maybe if it did two shots of 17+17 armored, so that it still took an upgrade to 1-shot Zerglings, but also did 20 damage against Immortals, that could be ideal. It would also be greatly improved if the two shots were spaced apart either .4687 cells, or 0.2343 cells, so that they made something of a filled-in infinity symbol shape. It would definitely improve their use against Roach-Hydra and against Stalker balls. Even in defensive, non-committal applications, a couple Siege Tanks would absolutely neuter Stalker all-ins, unless they were microed absolutely amazingly.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
Not really. The mech Blizzard should be concerned with is the timing-attack mech style. The grind-it-out-for-an-hour style works when zergs run out of patience and I doubt many people want to see it standard.
On January 03 2014 07:51 mewo wrote: Won't the msc thing just screw up pvp? Were terrans really worried about chain photon overcharges?
Well, 1 photon overcharge basically shuts down most early timings, which allows the Protoss to get away with a lot in the early-mid game. If you have a push and you have to wait for overcharge to expire, it effectively delays your push by 1 minute, which is usually enough to kill most pushes.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
You do understand that Avilo does not beat good players, the times I've seen him try his mech vs koreans he gets absolutely demolished.
ok but Avilo aside, mech in TvT is already strong enough.
Ghost with 75 energy: ok, but it will not solve mech TvP problems
Tank armored attacks buff: LOL! it will not help in TvP, look - zeals (light), immortals (shields), air switch vs who it will help ? stalkers are waste in late, colossi also maybe vs 2 base blink allins it will help a bit
Fairly disappointed in this. I didn't see a "remove protoss from the game until LoTV" test. I think we all know that the game would be far more balanced and fun to watch then.
Jokes aside nexus cannon is a step in the right direction (to make mutas even better)
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
Shortly, yes. And It was the same in BW. Terran mech has basically the same boring gameplay as turtling protoss deathball. It was working in BW because the opponents could punish turtling players by expanding more, which doesn't work in SC2 because of the economy cap at 3 mining bases. So yeah, the day mech becomes standard will be the worst day of SC2 yet (even worse then queen patch).
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
Not really. The mech Blizzard should be concerned with is the timing-attack mech style. The grind-it-out-for-an-hour style works when zergs run out of patience and I doubt many people want to see it standard.
how would you make a timing-attack style viable as an actualy playstyle without making turtle style mech more prominent though?
i would love to see a fungal buff actually.. imagine if fungal does more damage vs air units.. this would change the ZvZ match up and we wouldnt need these OP spores and it would be easier as a zerg in the super lategame vs skytoss deathball with the infestors
I'm confused.... Hasn't blizzard figured out yet that burrowed roaches just aren't that good to make randomly? Why do they need everything to be used all the time? Why are they doing this to roaches and not, say, carriers?
On January 03 2014 07:48 Musicus wrote: Good stuff, not sure about mech though. It's already very strong versus T and Z, maybe a change that makes it better vs P only like easier EMP access is ok.
If something is bad against Mech then its low hp ranged units or Bio in other words. So its impossible to allow Bio in TvT while allowing Mech to work in other matchups. Unless they add a Bio unit that completely wrecks mechanical units without shields. Give Reapers anti vehicle grenades !
On January 03 2014 08:15 NMxhendralisk wrote: rip to zergs if mech gets buffed again
Technically, widow mines are mech, and they were nerfed far more than siege tanks were buffed (dat ridiculous 7% attack speed increase). Therefore I find it hard to argue that mech "got buffed" last patch.
meh, id rather see them nerf the range/energy cost/damage of the overcharge (and time warp a bit too). but duration is not bad too
also, the real problem for TvP are proxy oracle and blink all in's right now, dunno why he wouldnt even mention them.
the roach buff seems strange, PvZ might become a pain also, pls dont buff mech anymore. its already viable in TvZ and TvT. Making it to strong would ruin TvT for me.
also, id expect TvP mech games to be rather boring turtle games.
id also like to see them adress mass muta. oh well.
On January 03 2014 08:21 monsta wrote: i would love to see a fungal buff actually.. imagine if fungal does more damage vs air units.. this would change the ZvZ match up and we wouldnt need these OP spores and it would be easier as a zerg in the super lategame vs skytoss deathball with the infestors
On January 03 2014 08:11 pmp10 wrote: Would much rather see them tackle time-warp than PO.
And they are still clue-less when it comes to mech. They failed to deliver against zerg and now think just EMP will solve the problem of immortal.
EMP also helps against Templars and Archons, which really destroy Terran mech air. Immortals for the ground, high templars and archons for the air
Mech play usually doesn't survive long enough for that to be an issue. The first things that mech TvP would need are ways to survive blink all-in and taking of the third base. Unless those things get solved tinkering with things like EMP is just a waste of time.
And on reflection where did they get that better-mech-air idea? They just buffed it with combined upgrades and it did little. It should be clear that this is not the way.
I can't see these changes making much of a diff (as a Protoss player)... I just don't see much of a good way to make mech work because of tempests... Buffing EMP would only encourage bio because it's easier to add into a bio build rather than learning how to play mech and then using ghosts too...
I think at this point they should be more focused on making units that arnt being used useful... Carrier/bc etc
On January 03 2014 08:15 NMxhendralisk wrote: rip to zergs if mech gets buffed again
Technically, widow mines are mech, and they were nerfed far more than siege tanks were buffed (dat ridiculous 7% attack speed increase). Therefore I find it hard to argue that mech "got buffed" last patch.
u dont make more than a few (if any) widow mines with ur mech army (mine is for bio play) tanks with more vs armor dps would just shit on roaches entirely to the point u cant even make roaches not to mention now when you make air units you have free 3/3 where zerg would need a ton of resource and time to make their own for air
On January 03 2014 08:06 Bagi wrote: Honestly, with the amount of blink stalker allins we've already seen in a few days of proleague I'd rather have them focus on that. Two base blink with MSC and time warp support is a far bigger issue than any slight timing window this PO nerf could compensate for.
On December 31 2013 11:10 Mintie wrote: You let the Reaper scout your base
With my build, it doesn't matter if the opponent knows. The timing was messed up though, because he delayed my expansion.
Thats a quote from a postgame interview in Proleague, and it scares the shit out of me.
Your quotation is more of a "i am so good I win anyways" to boost the player's image and make him look more confident than anything else. If you scout it literally the second blink starts you can easily go tanks and place all the bunkers you need in time.
not true btw. the two base blink build doesnt allow such a reaction, as it would be too safe
I think both the roach move speed and photon overcharge duration nerf are steps in the right direction. They probably won't get it right the first time, but a bit of iterative design may end up with these changes being a great boon to the game. As for the mech buff, well... it requires creative design. They know mech is a problem, but everybody knows that. Figuring out what the hell they can do about it is the hard part.
Photon overcharge nerf would be the best thing to happen to Hots. While Protoss surely needed something against medivac boosters, getting a simple ability that completely stops any Terran early game pushes (removing a third of possible strategies, assuming early-mid-late game are equal) is just wrong and bad for the game. This might be enough for some builds to be viable again, while also allowing new ones to appear. 100% support.
Buffing roaches more seems somewhat redudant. If anything, wait more before doing anything. It's still very unexplored.
Can't say much about mech changes, since they didn't mention any specifics.
I really wanted to see david addressing the issue of how TvP goes these days, the zero variety hard to scout perspective of a terran, to the w/e variety easy to scout of the prottos.
PO: I think it's quite good nerf, but it's still quite strong anyway, sc2 is a very fast paced game, 40 sec is still a very long period! not that i think that it should be shorter, but i do think there should be a diffrent kind of nerf (like more mana requirement, or only one PO can be activated at once)
Roach burrow: I seriously dont get, blizzard want to encourage some kind of gimmicky thing, so they buff it, w/o even considering.. maybe it's already quite good... the reason zerg don't use it as much, not because its weak... thats for sure.
On January 03 2014 08:28 dohgg wrote: I really wanted to see david addressing the issue of how TvP goes these days, the zero variety hard to scout perspective of a terran, to the w/e variety easy to scout of the prottos.
PO: I think it's quite good nerf, but it's still quite strong anyway, sc2 is a very fast paced game, 40 sec is still a very long period! not that i think that it should be shorter, but i do think there should be a diffrent kind of nerf (like more mana requirement, or only one PO can be activated at once)
Roach burrow: I seriously dont get, blizzard want to encourage some kind of gimmicky thing, so they buff it, w/o even considering.. maybe it's already quite good... the reason zerg don't use it as much, not because its weak... thats for sure.
Buffing Mech IS addressing variety concerns in TvP.
On January 03 2014 08:30 Die4Ever wrote: EMP mech sounds good, but I'm not sure mech needs any buffs other than easier access to EMP
I really want to see a legitimate tank buff tested.
If it causes problems then revert it but I really think that especially with the metagame and map pool as they are the tank could afford a buff to make it more appealing both TvP and TvZ. Increasing Siege Tank damage to armored helps in a couple areas.
1. vs Collosus Tech. Having more powerful tank damage means that focus firing Collosus with tanks becomes a more valid way of handling them decreasing somewhat Terran reliance on Vikings. Vikings are still obviously going to be the preferred method but additional tank damage has the potential of opening up more Tank/Marine playstyles in TvP's midgame.
2. vs Ultralisk tech.
3. Early game defense vs Gateway and Roach All Ins. Siege Tank numbers in the early game are never as high as in the mid game for obvious reasons and increasing the threat of a single tank helps to hold all ins significantly which opens more viable build options for Terrans in TvP and TvZ.
The big question is. Would it affect TvT too much?
I'm not so sure. The damage vs Marines and Helbats would remain the same, the damage to Structures, Thors, Vikings, Marauders and Siege Tanks would increase. I think the benefit this offers to Bio players utilizing small numbers of Tanks defensively actually outweighs the benefit it would provide to an offensive minded Mech player.
Obviously Mech's mobility would still be its greatest weakness to exploit as a Bio player, so charging and breaking a Tank line with ground units would still be difficult.
Why not just make burrowed roaches able to fire nukes while burrowed, have 3000 health, and a movement speed of 2 billion? Maybe then people will use them more.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
well thats kind of the point to buffing mech. Like BW mech vs Protoss was very entertaining, and Vultures allowed terran to stay busy even if their main army couldn't move out right away. Goliaths were the same supply as tanks and didn't need add ons to be made from a factory, only an armory to be built. Goliaths were weaker but much faster and more mobile, with much higher dps(almost the same as a turret), and because more could be built for the price of a thor, more ground/air could be covered.
The idea is, because sc2 mech is very weak against Protoss and not all that great until maxed in TvT, that there is a lot of turtling when going mech. If mech was buffed or made more viable, Mech users would move out more and trade armies more often, creating more interesting games. Of course this is the idea on paper, what those effective changes would be? nobody really knows because most of us look at it terms of what should be redesigned(fed up of the sc2 units that do exist, and what could happen in an expansion or new game), and not necessarily improving what already exists.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
Mech is happening MORE AND MORE as it is.. Why not give it more time?
It's happening because more and more Terrans are attempting to use it after being frustrated with a lack of success playing Bio, the problem is that Mech isn't winning anything especially in the TvP match up.
You'd think if we see it more we'd actually see it win once in a while now but we still aren't. Terrans are utilizing it at the higher levels out of desperation more than anything else. That's a bad place for a playstyle to be.
We believe we can push mech usage more as well. Some options we’re looking at here are: higher armored damage for siege tanks, easier access to EMP when going mech (such as building the energy upgrade into the unit), buffing mech air, and so on. However, this is the area in which we’re the least certain. Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated.
I made a TL forum post on why the game currently sucks and it was a response to SKMC (It got locked though for understandable reasons.)
I will just give a short reiteration of my points on Terran Mech and some original ones not in that thread:
Siege Tanks are too expensive compared to their Brood War counterparts.
Siege Tanks do too little damage for their cost and (lack of) mobility.
Siege Tanks are hard-countered by units they were supposed to counter in the first place (Blink Stalkers can trade efficiently with tanks if blinked on top of a tank line.)
Thors are hard-countered by units they were designed to counter in the first place (Mutalisks
Thors and Widow Mines suck vs Air. The Goliath (or pre-beta Warhound) needs to be brought back.
Siege Tanks were nerfed in the beta back when map sizes were really small.
Removing overkill doesn't compensate for much shittier damage output.
Widow Mines have phased out the Siege Tank because it is more efficient at trading with Zerglings and Banelings.
Do I agree with these changes? Yes. I sincerely hope we see more Terran mech buffs in the future especially buffing Tank damage vs Armored. I think 60 vs Armored or 70 vs Armored would be a reasonable tradeoff. Maybe then I may consider finally playing Terran again.
2.25 is so fucking fast. In fact, it's the speed of an unstimmed Terran army. Roaches must have really powerful drills, Blizzard should double their melee damage to respect the lore and roleplay.
I think the buff EMP is a good idea, but it's pretty sure that it would be OP. Anyway, they'll surely have to find an other way to buff Mech against Protoss !
I like the Photon overcharge nerf even if 40 seconds is still long but it's better than 60s right ?
Finally, I didn't see much Burrow roach since the last patch, so I guess it's a good thing to see if they can once again speed up burrow roaches.
For Terrans, here are my propositions. I think a slightly faster ghost with a +1 range for snipe would be enough to revolutionize TvP lategame. Would force the Protoss to micro as hard as Terran, lose more HT... it will have a considerable snowball effect. It might also make ultra-late game against Zerg winnable for Terrans, when Vipers/swarmhosts/static defenses slowly abduct every single terran units to death.
Considering TvZ, WM nerf should get reverted, or tanks should get a "real" buff (a 25% speed attack increase, not a 7%) in order to make mech or bio/(wm)/tank work again.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
Mech is happening MORE AND MORE as it is.. Why not give it more time?
Because it's losing outside of TvT and soon will disappear.
because?? it looks quite solid in TvZ
Yea if u decide to play 1h minimum, then maybe.. or u get so far ahead early game that u can just build anything u want. Otherwise the match takes ages. I want mech to have a little bit of offensive potentials. U basically sit there and build build build while ur opponent covers the map. Then u start conquering it back again and loose if u get caught offguard... Thats not fun imo.
On January 03 2014 08:40 SiroKO wrote: For Terrans, here are my propositions. I think a slightly faster ghost with a +1 range for snipe would be enough to revolutionize TvP lategame. Would force the Protoss to micro as hard as Terran, lose more HT... it will have a considerable snowball effect.
Considering TvZ, WM nerf should get reverted, or tanks should get a "real" buff (a 25% speed attack increase, not a 7%) in order to make mech or bio/(wm)/tank work again.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
This is so true, I know I would stop watching and playing the game if mech was viable, it is just to easy to turtle and max on SC2, this is not BW.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
We need to make units faster! A unit or an ability isn't used every game? Make it faster! A harass tactic isn't consistently clearing mineral lines? Make it faster! A race lost more than 50% of the games in a specific time period? Make something of theirs faster! FASTER!
I like the nerf of PO, though I'm not even sure if it should exist. To me it's just such a free "ohh i fucked up" ability, that while it has some stratigic places, it just feels like a bandaid for bad play most the time.
About buffing mech, I'm not really sure how they can do it. I mean mech T and Z are fine imo(albeit vZ is extremely boring), but I don't personally think immos are that big of a problem in vP, atleast not in macro games. It comes rather down to end game unit combo for P being just so much stronger than Ts, aswell as both tempest and carrier having longer range. I think PDD eating 1 feedback each would be a better change(though it'd kind of make the raven the core unit in vP just like vZ and to lesser extend vT which I think is what kind of makes playing mech boring, just massing ravens for the most part).
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
TaeJa vs INnoVation.
I have basically zero knowledge of the other match ups and I am talking as a player and spectator of ZvT
I think PvP will be affected by the overcharge nerf most. Negatively I might add. Us protoss know how to abuse something like that, there'll be the dirtiest overcharge bait into actual attack strategies.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
well thats kind of the point to buffing mech. Like BW mech vs Protoss was very entertaining, and Vultures allowed terran to stay busy even if their main army couldn't move out right away. Goliaths were the same supply as tanks and didn't need add ons to be made from a factory, only an armory to be built. Goliaths were weaker but much faster and more mobile, with much higher dps(almost the same as a turret), and because more could be built for the price of a thor, more ground/air could be covered.
The idea is, because sc2 mech is very weak against Protoss and not all that great until maxed in TvT, that there is a lot of turtling when going mech. If mech was buffed or made more viable, Mech users would move out more and trade armies more often, creating more interesting games. Of course this is the idea on paper, what those effective changes would be? nobody really knows because most of us look at it terms of what should be redesigned(fed up of the sc2 units that do exist, and what could happen in an expansion or new game), and not necessarily improving what already exists.
But then again, why would you ever want to move out and trade when it is safer and more reliable to turtle? It's like broodlord/infestor was, you CAN do other things in a lot of the games, but...why.
I can only talk about Z match ups, so the dynamics of TvT and TvP are unknown to me
I said it with the last patch and i'll say it now. No one wants to go roach burrow because its bad xD This buff will increase burrow movement to be equal to roaches without their speed upgrade so it might be okay to get. But the costs are still completely off for a skill that really doesn't go into the late game at all due to the way that roaches get crushed in late game
To go for a burrow roach push you have to buy burrow 100/100, then you have buy burrow movement. But even though that is all fine and good if you don't want your roaches to be kited while they are up by terran units (Toss generally fight at chokes with ff) then you need to get the other movement. All in all this is like 300 to about 400 gas where if you were just to go with a straight up roach push that is 4 roaches for each 100, so 12 to 16 roaches more if you don't work towards burrow movement. This means actually putting this into a push means the push is much weaker since that is a huge chunk of units you're skipping pushing you completely all in anyways.
Now the reason this doesn't go well late game is because toss and terran almost always have detection, even zerg if they get ANY glance of the mohawks on the roaches. Meaning that you can't do harass with them as it will be just as effective as dark templar. but without the ability to warp into the base and since overlords with speed are the slowest transport unit in the game we really can't pick up and get out of there like warp prisms or speedy medivacs. So we are forced to go through the front, Toss will ALWAYS have a cannon there and terran may or may not have detection but probably will have at least a turret there. Either way, once the first wave happens they will get their detection up and its efficiency drops dramatically.
When it comes to big scale battles, Roaches arnt the ones you want to micro anyways. They are there to die in mid to late game engagements. They are the cheapest unit in most compositions (Save roach/ling or roach/bane but those only appear in ZvZ) so any sort of roach/hydra composition you don't want to burrow move your roaches around because then you lose all your hydras. The only really good thing this brings is that you can escape from forcefields or push through protoss force fields with ease.
So like i said last time. The roach buff wont change a damn thing :D
I don't really know what to expect with the planetary nexus change. But i don't think it is enough, Most terran or zerg pushes fail long before even 40 seconds. I think this will change more of how PvP works more than anything else. Will be interesting.
Yay buff mech? Lets create extremely long boring games! But at least terrans will have a variety which will be nice.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
TaeJa vs INnoVation.
I have basically zero knowledge of the other match ups and is talking as a player and spectator of ZvT
Let's watch Curious vs MVP IEM Singapour, all 4 matches. Very entertaining games.
lol these are really bad changes except for looking at mech. Blizzard trying to buff midgame zerg units which are already super cost efficient vs protoss gateway units is silly ^^. If you're a zerg you should just stephano max with speed burrow roach and never lose if you have good multitask.
But more importantly why the photon overcharge nerf is stupid. By nerfing the length of photon overcharge you're basically making it impossible to expand in pvp. In pvt its now basically impossible to open templar. In PvZ it actually doesn't matter. Stephano style roach max will be harder to hold but still doable of course.
What should have been nerfed(I play protoss so im only commenting on protoss matchups) -oracle (it makes pvp a coinflip quite often and also is too strong in pvt) -immortal(immortal all in is quite strong. Possibly too strong? Also, it doesnt effect any other matchups too much besides pvz) -viper vs ht (Should be changed so its more like ghost vs ht. Microable by both sides and fun back and forth.)
Notice I didn't change anything dumb that doesn't break other matchups unlike the above changes.. zzz
On January 03 2014 08:40 SiroKO wrote: For Terrans, here are my propositions. I think a slightly faster ghost with a +1 range for snipe would be enough to revolutionize TvP lategame. Would force the Protoss to micro as hard as Terran, lose more HT... it will have a considerable snowball effect.
Considering TvZ, WM nerf should get reverted, or tanks should get a "real" buff (a 25% speed attack increase, not a 7%) in order to make mech or bio/(wm)/tank work again.
+1 snipe range would probably break lategame TvP
Implying lategame high eco TvP is not already broken? I believe it would force the Protoss to use HT more carefully or put them in warp-prisms. We would see less stupid HT walking alone and landing feedback/perfect storms.
On January 03 2014 08:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: I think PvP will be affected by the overcharge nerf most. Negatively I might add. Us protoss know how to abuse something like that, there'll be the dirtiest overcharge bait into actual attack strategies.
And that will further make PvP more skill demanding, the better player will bait the overcharge and create a window for himself, the worse player will fall for the bait and die. This I would say is a good change.
On January 03 2014 08:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: I think PvP will be affected by the overcharge nerf most. Negatively I might add. Us protoss know how to abuse something like that, there'll be the dirtiest overcharge bait into actual attack strategies.
And that will further make PvP more skill demanding, the better player will bait the overcharge and create a window for himself, the worse player will fall for the bait and die. This I would say is a good change.
I just think it makes it even more unforgiving for you to fall behind in the build order wars...
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
TaeJa vs INnoVation.
I have basically zero knowledge of the other match ups and I am talking as a player and spectator of ZvT
The primary reason the Tank needs a buff is due to TvP, try as I might I just cannot think of a reason why TvT and TvZ would be so negatively affected that it means we shouldn't at least test it.
Mech's viability in TvZ has very little to do with the strength of the Siege Tank. It has everything to do with how powerful the late game Sky-Terran army can be, buffing the Siege Tank doesn't change how powerful that unit comp becomes, it simply means that Mech can be played more aggressively in the match up and still be successful.
There's more toss in GM because of the strength of all-ins, not the strength of the core in macro games. Now there's going to be even more due to buffing all-ins in p vs p. I'd like to see all-ins get nerfed across the board, not see more players rejoicing over wins via playing like a caveman.
I wish the core had different attributes based on the current mu... when you make a change that no toss players probably care about, outside of a mirror mu, it's probably not the right change... also, I'd love to know in what situation does it not make sense to mass mutas in a macro game (z vs p). How about nerfing that.
On January 03 2014 08:52 -HuShang- wrote: lol these are really bad changes except for looking at mech. Blizzard trying to buff midgame zerg units which are already super cost efficient vs protoss gateway units is silly ^^. If you're a zerg you should just stephano max with speed burrow roach and never lose if you have good multitask.
But more importantly why the photon overcharge nerf is stupid. By nerfing the length of photon overcharge you're basically making it impossible to expand in pvp. In pvt its now basically impossible to open templar. In PvZ it actually doesn't matter. Stephano style roach max will be harder to hold but still doable of course.
What should have been nerfed(I play protoss so im only commenting on protoss matchups) -oracle (it makes pvp a coinflip quite often and also is too strong in pvt) -immortal(immortal all in is quite strong. Possibly too strong? Also, it doesnt effect any other matchups too much besides pvz) -viper vs ht (Should be changed so its more like ghost vs ht. Microable by both sides and fun back and forth.)
Notice I didn't change anything dumb that doesn't break other matchups unlike the above changes.. zzz
I've been campaigning for an Immortal nerf for well over 3 years now.
Dustin Browder actually responded to one of my tweets a while back.
They aren't going to do it. For whatever reason the developers at Blizzard love the role the Immortal has. They aren't nerfing it, I've slowly come to accept that.
The story of sc2 balance for terrain has been about trying to make mech "work". It's interesting that they've had this much trouble getting it to fit in.
dont think these changes are good and well thought... Again blizz is taking way to small steps on the PTR server man damn david kim this is a fucking PTR just give your damn tank a +dmg vs shield and look how it does-.- Well anyway i dont see anything going to change with the msc nerf since it wont change the PvP outcome and same for the PvT.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
TaeJa vs INnoVation.
I have basically zero knowledge of the other match ups and I am talking as a player and spectator of ZvT
The primary reason the Tank needs a buff is due to TvP, try as I might I just cannot think of a reason why TvT and TvZ would be so negatively affected that it means we shouldn't at least test it.
Mech's viability in TvZ has very little to do with the strength of the Siege Tank. It has everything to do with how powerful the late game Sky-Terran army can be, buffing the Siege Tank doesn't change how powerful that unit comp becomes, it simply means that Mech can be played more aggressively in the match up and still be successful.
you cant see how TvT could be negatively affected? really? mech is already a dominant TvT strat, any tank buffs would kill Bio in TvT
Wasn't roach speed buffed like 1 month ago? Why not give it time to catch up? Let people experiment with it before judging if it's good or not. People are always reluctant to try new things in SC and tend to stick to what they know, but in time they will try it.
On January 03 2014 08:53 NerdFace wrote: All I want as a terran is a blink all in nerf :'(
the Strength of the Blink All in in the current metagame has as much to do with the map pool as anything else.
If Blink continues to be a problem then changing the map pool to discourage it is a much cleaner fix than anything you can do through a balance patch.
Nerfing Photon Overcharge means that Protoss has to actually play a tiny bit safer since their defense can't be so easily handled with one press of a hotkey, that affects the all in dynamic just as much as a direct nerf does.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
TaeJa vs INnoVation.
I have basically zero knowledge of the other match ups and I am talking as a player and spectator of ZvT
The primary reason the Tank needs a buff is due to TvP, try as I might I just cannot think of a reason why TvT and TvZ would be so negatively affected that it means we shouldn't at least test it.
Mech's viability in TvZ has very little to do with the strength of the Siege Tank. It has everything to do with how powerful the late game Sky-Terran army can be, buffing the Siege Tank doesn't change how powerful that unit comp becomes, it simply means that Mech can be played more aggressively in the match up and still be successful.
Most of my hatred for mech in TvZ is based on not really knowing how to play against it I do admit, so my opinion is probably very amateur, but making the siege tank stronger would buff both the aggressive style and the turtle style, so it would be like they have the possibility to do a strong attack or sit back and turtle, both of which require a very different response, so for a mid-master zerg unable to read the game and respond perfectly, it would be retardedly frustrating I'd imagine, especially when you already have a terribly negative attitude towards mech in general. AND it also makes it easier to get to that almost unbeatable air composition.
not to mention the fact that killing terrans that don't want to die is already stupidly hard, and this is going to make laddering an even worse experience assuming you don't enjoy the super long games
any mech buff is certainly appreciated though. terran is def already the funnest race to watch but at some point even marine marauder medivac (mine) gets boring
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
TaeJa vs INnoVation.
I have basically zero knowledge of the other match ups and I am talking as a player and spectator of ZvT
The primary reason the Tank needs a buff is due to TvP, try as I might I just cannot think of a reason why TvT and TvZ would be so negatively affected that it means we shouldn't at least test it.
Mech's viability in TvZ has very little to do with the strength of the Siege Tank. It has everything to do with how powerful the late game Sky-Terran army can be, buffing the Siege Tank doesn't change how powerful that unit comp becomes, it simply means that Mech can be played more aggressively in the match up and still be successful.
you cant see how TvT could be negatively affected? really? TvT is already a dominant TvT strat, any tank buffs would kill Bio in TvT
As per my post a couple pages back. regarding David Kim's proposed increase to armored damage.
The big question is. Would it affect TvT too much?
I'm not so sure. The damage vs Marines and Helbats would remain the same, the damage to Structures, Thors, Vikings, Marauders and Siege Tanks would increase. I think the benefit this offers to Bio players utilizing small numbers of Tanks defensively actually outweighs the benefit it would provide to an offensive minded Mech player.
They aren't going to buff Siege Tank flat damage. Anyone with a brain knows that, it would absolutely destroy TvT and TvZ but increasing damage vs Armored does do a couple of interesting things to TvZ and TvP without having an enormous effect on the Tank's current power in TvT.
My dreams of a fast land shark is becoming realized... now all Blizzard has to do is give burrowed roaches a melee attack when they are in range. But what would make burrowed movement really more useful is if hydras could burrow move as well, but not quite as fast. I'm only half kidding about this.
Anyways they should really reverse the buff they did to the oracle before, I feel sorry for all the terrans that have to deal with it in the early game with that. And then all the protoss who have to deal with it in PvP. I do hope they be careful with buffing the tank versus armor as buffing the tank would even further diminish one of the zergs' only cheese strategies the roach bane all-in (Then again the roach bane all-in should be kept a surprise and if scouted and terran reacts appropriately in time, the all-in should not work). But if the buff means more damage exclusively against immortals then yes I am all for that change. It's kind of dumb how strong the immortal is versus mech if you really think about it.
As for the photon overcharge duration reduced, that sounds good. Also there was something that happened during one of the Asus ROG qualifiers where the protoss player was able to recall to a nexus that was destroyed during the recall. I hope that that is addressed, because I don't think that should be able to happen. If the mothership core dies the recall doesn't happen, and if the targeted nexus is destroyed, either the recall doesn't happen or it goes to a different nexus.
One thing I would very much like to see happen is there is a limited number of times a single pylon could warp-in units before it needs to cool down. Like a 4-6 warp-in at a time max before triggering a cool down. This would affect how aggressive a protoss could be and would effectively give a defender's advantage to protoss in pvp where most pylons would be in or near the base of the protoss. There would be a little higher of an investment to attack as more reinforcement pylons would be needed to effectively reinforce an offensive army especially with gateways totaling more than 4. The warp prism would also be affected as it would allow for 4 warp-ins max at a time considering that warp prism can only hold 4 gateway units at a time. A change to warp-in mechanics probably will not happen though.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
TaeJa vs INnoVation.
I have basically zero knowledge of the other match ups and I am talking as a player and spectator of ZvT
The primary reason the Tank needs a buff is due to TvP, try as I might I just cannot think of a reason why TvT and TvZ would be so negatively affected that it means we shouldn't at least test it.
Mech's viability in TvZ has very little to do with the strength of the Siege Tank. It has everything to do with how powerful the late game Sky-Terran army can be, buffing the Siege Tank doesn't change how powerful that unit comp becomes, it simply means that Mech can be played more aggressively in the match up and still be successful.
Most of my hatred for mech in TvZ is based on not really knowing how to play against it I do admit, so my opinion is probably very amateur, but making the siege tank stronger would buff both the aggressive style and the turtle style, so it would be like they have the possibility to do a strong attack or sit back and turtle, both of which require a very different response, so for a mid-master zerg unable to read the game and respond perfectly, it would be retardedly frustrating I'd imagine, especially when you already have a terribly negative attitude towards mech in general. AND it also makes it easier to get to that almost unbeatable air composition
It doesn't actually improve Tanks in a turtle style much. Reason being is that turtling on large numbers of Tanks becomes very hard to do once Hive Tech hits. Vipers and Broodlords both counter the Tank's ability to be used in a defensive way by design that has nothing to do with how much damage Tanks do.
Again, the reason Mech works in TvZ is because of the Raven. The Raven is a strong answer to everything Zerg can throw at it in the late game once they are massed in enough numbers.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
well thats kind of the point to buffing mech. Like BW mech vs Protoss was very entertaining, and Vultures allowed terran to stay busy even if their main army couldn't move out right away. Goliaths were the same supply as tanks and didn't need add ons to be made from a factory, only an armory to be built. Goliaths were weaker but much faster and more mobile, with much higher dps(almost the same as a turret), and because more could be built for the price of a thor, more ground/air could be covered.
The idea is, because sc2 mech is very weak against Protoss and not all that great until maxed in TvT, that there is a lot of turtling when going mech. If mech was buffed or made more viable, Mech users would move out more and trade armies more often, creating more interesting games. Of course this is the idea on paper, what those effective changes would be? nobody really knows because most of us look at it terms of what should be redesigned(fed up of the sc2 units that do exist, and what could happen in an expansion or new game), and not necessarily improving what already exists.
BW TvP style would NOT work in SC2 though.
As I posted before in this thread - the real problem for SC2 is it's economy. In BW the turtling player could have been punished by the opponent expanding more. This is not the case in SC2 because of it's economy cap at 3 bases. What exactly I mean by this:
In BW when it was 40 workers vs 40 workers, 1 player turtling on 3 bases, the other player could have taken 5 bases and even with the same amount of workers, the player on 5 bases would have an advantage. This advantage would allow him to get more army and/or tech and effectively punish the turtling player. In TvP specifically that lead into waves of protoss units rushing into the almost-unbeateable terran deathball.
In SC2 though, when it is 60 workers against 60 (using 60 as you need more workers in general in SC2), it DOESN'T MATTER if you have 3 bases or 5. You still have the same income. This sucks as it eliminates any opportunity for turtling player to be effectively punished.
The mechanic I described above is imo one of the most important mechanic of any good RTS and SC2 is just lacking it. It was pointed out time after time by various members of community, and I just cannot imagine any reason why NOT TO implement something like this, as it would effectively get players a way to 'solve' all the worst things about SC2 that watchers hate - be it the WoL times of infestor/brood lord (yes, this would probably not happen with such a mechanic) or the protoss deathball turtling that we see throught both - WoL and HotS. And if mech will be buffed to the point of it being standard, it will bring the same deathball-style problems.
The funniest thing is, no one EVER asked Dustin Browder (in interview or AMA) if they know about this, if they thought about it (or maybe they still do) and most importantly if there is any chance for it to be implemented. Because quite frankly, balance is not the problem of SC2, some of the design choices are.
On January 03 2014 08:53 NerdFace wrote: All I want as a terran is a blink all in nerf :'(
the Strength of the Blink All in in the current metagame has as much to do with the map pool as anything else.
If Blink continues to be a problem then changing the map pool to discourage it is a much cleaner fix than anything you can do through a balance patch.
Nerfing Photon Overcharge means that Protoss has to actually play a tiny bit safer since their defense can't be so easily handled with one press of a hotkey, that affects the all in dynamic just as much as a direct nerf does.
I don't agree, I think wide cliffs on the edge of bases are good. It helps terran get scouts in with reapers and also makes blink stalkers stronger in pvp which is quite skill based and fun. A different nerf to 2 base blink all ins would be better imo
PvT: Gonna make the early game more rock-paper-scissors. If you lower the value of protoss defense, then the relative value of protoss offense is raised. Personally, I don't like it. I like playing defensively and this change is a straight nerf. And as far as I know, terran players like playing against me. What they hate the most is all the protoss early game shenanigans, none of which depend on a 60 second Photon Overcharge (and so aren't nerfed by this change). This nerf would make me take another look at proxy stargate, blink and dt openings.
PvP: Don't like it. PvP was notoriously difficult to expand or tech. Photon Overcharge helped that a lot. The 20 seconds will cause significant regression. More tech builds will die to rushes. More expanders will die to 1base all-ins.
If they want to see burrow more why don't they just change it so that you can see 3 or 4 range when burrowed instead of just on your unit, the trouble is its so difficult to use burrowed stuff without seeing, like banelings can only see nearly melee
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
TaeJa vs INnoVation.
I have basically zero knowledge of the other match ups and I am talking as a player and spectator of ZvT
The primary reason the Tank needs a buff is due to TvP, try as I might I just cannot think of a reason why TvT and TvZ would be so negatively affected that it means we shouldn't at least test it.
Mech's viability in TvZ has very little to do with the strength of the Siege Tank. It has everything to do with how powerful the late game Sky-Terran army can be, buffing the Siege Tank doesn't change how powerful that unit comp becomes, it simply means that Mech can be played more aggressively in the match up and still be successful.
you cant see how TvT could be negatively affected? really? TvT is already a dominant TvT strat, any tank buffs would kill Bio in TvT
As per my post a couple pages back. regarding David Kim's proposed increase to armored damage.
The big question is. Would it affect TvT too much?
I'm not so sure. The damage vs Marines and Helbats would remain the same, the damage to Structures, Thors, Vikings, Marauders and Siege Tanks would increase. I think the benefit this offers to Bio players utilizing small numbers of Tanks defensively actually outweighs the benefit it would provide to an offensive minded Mech player.
They aren't going to buff Siege Tank flat damage. Anyone with a brain knows that, it would absolutely destroy TvT and TvZ but increasing damage vs Armored does do a couple of interesting things to TvZ and TvP without having an enormous effect on the Tank's current power in TvT.
tanks already shred marines, they dont need a buff for that. marauders are the main anti mech unit and a damage buff vs armored is pretty much the end for bio in TvT because of that.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
TaeJa vs INnoVation.
I have basically zero knowledge of the other match ups and I am talking as a player and spectator of ZvT
The primary reason the Tank needs a buff is due to TvP, try as I might I just cannot think of a reason why TvT and TvZ would be so negatively affected that it means we shouldn't at least test it.
Mech's viability in TvZ has very little to do with the strength of the Siege Tank. It has everything to do with how powerful the late game Sky-Terran army can be, buffing the Siege Tank doesn't change how powerful that unit comp becomes, it simply means that Mech can be played more aggressively in the match up and still be successful.
Most of my hatred for mech in TvZ is based on not really knowing how to play against it I do admit, so my opinion is probably very amateur, but making the siege tank stronger would buff both the aggressive style and the turtle style, so it would be like they have the possibility to do a strong attack or sit back and turtle, both of which require a very different response, so for a mid-master zerg unable to read the game and respond perfectly, it would be retardedly frustrating I'd imagine, especially when you already have a terribly negative attitude towards mech in general. AND it also makes it easier to get to that almost unbeatable air composition
It doesn't actually improve Tanks in a turtle style much. Reason being is that turtling on large numbers of Tanks becomes very hard to do once Hive Tech hits. Vipers and Broodlords both counter the Tank's ability to be used in a defensive way by design that has nothing to do with how much damage Tanks do.
Again, the reason Mech works in TvZ is because of the Raven. The Raven is a strong answer to everything Zerg can throw at it in the late game once they are massed in enough numbers.
yes, but that moment of uncertainty before hive hits is going to kill a lot of zergs. Is the terran gonna push out and try to kill me as a response to the fast hive tech? or maybe he doesn't have a soul, and opts to disregard the things I do and turtle?
don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it is or will be imbalanced, I'm just saying that 3 out of 4 games involving mech are really shitty and I'm scared shitless by the possibility of having to deal with mech more than once in every 5 games
just need to add a dash effect to the burrow so make it a sniping harass effect, fuck the speed for maybe a second to actually make burrowing not be responsible for KILLING ALL UR BURROWED UNITS as when you need to use this shit they aslways have detection. Burrow and movement is only a pain in the ass for low level players
This "random" roach burrow thing might be the next queen range. Everyone is like "whatever, who cares" and when it goes online, people slowly appreciate what a nice change this was.
I believe 40 seconds (thats 33%) is quite a change. Lets test it out and see where it lands.
I believe in small changes, because they still have an bigger impact than one might imagine.
*thumbs up for blizzard* More diversity is the true balance that we should seek.
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
TaeJa vs INnoVation.
I have basically zero knowledge of the other match ups and I am talking as a player and spectator of ZvT
The primary reason the Tank needs a buff is due to TvP, try as I might I just cannot think of a reason why TvT and TvZ would be so negatively affected that it means we shouldn't at least test it.
Mech's viability in TvZ has very little to do with the strength of the Siege Tank. It has everything to do with how powerful the late game Sky-Terran army can be, buffing the Siege Tank doesn't change how powerful that unit comp becomes, it simply means that Mech can be played more aggressively in the match up and still be successful.
you cant see how TvT could be negatively affected? really? TvT is already a dominant TvT strat, any tank buffs would kill Bio in TvT
As per my post a couple pages back. regarding David Kim's proposed increase to armored damage.
The big question is. Would it affect TvT too much?
I'm not so sure. The damage vs Marines and Helbats would remain the same, the damage to Structures, Thors, Vikings, Marauders and Siege Tanks would increase. I think the benefit this offers to Bio players utilizing small numbers of Tanks defensively actually outweighs the benefit it would provide to an offensive minded Mech player.
They aren't going to buff Siege Tank flat damage. Anyone with a brain knows that, it would absolutely destroy TvT and TvZ but increasing damage vs Armored does do a couple of interesting things to TvZ and TvP without having an enormous effect on the Tank's current power in TvT.
tanks already shred marines, they dont need a buff for that. marauders are the main anti mech unit and a damage buff vs armored is pretty much the end for bio in TvT because of that.
I just said that they aren't going to buff Mech damage vs Marines. It's something that straight up won't happen.
The damage improvement against Marauders is actually not a big deal. Does it mean that charging Tank lines with straight Bio units becomes a little harder? Yes. Does it all change how immobile and vulnerable to drops Mech armies are? No.
Bio wins vs Mech with mobility. If you try and brute force a Mech player with Bio you are doing it wrong.
What a buff to armored damage does is SLIGHTLY improve the Tank's power at what it is already good at in a Mech vs Bio situation, but even more than that it improves the Siege Tank's defensive power against other Mech compositions. This means that using a Bio/Tank style becomes even better than it was before.
It works out. Both playstyles receive benefits in TvT.
Can't quite help but to feel with the PO nerf early game PvP expand builds will be dead. Plus, this is going to affect the PvT matchup in regards to templar opening quite dramatically. A 10 second nerf would be ok, but 20 seconds is a bit of an overkill in my opinion.
The roach burrow movement buff should prove to be quite useful when playing protoss who open air with no robo tech/observers. As for the mech air buff, that's a bit un-necessary. Mass vikings with their range can already kite most air units (apart from maybe the tempest, but that's kinda the point).
On January 03 2014 08:06 Aocowns wrote: why the fuck do they have this autistic boner for mech
Because it's stupid for half of the Terran tech tree to be useless?
I get that and all, but honestly, do you even want mech to work? I mean, seeing avilo with a good winratio must be painful to even the most soulless terrans? most effective mech styles all basically involve possibly making every other game Goswser vs Lucifron, no?
EDIT: okay no more passive aggressive pissed off shitting about, but mech is just a really unentertaining way to play, play against, and watch, and from my perspective I'd rather watch games from the broodlord infestor era
well thats kind of the point to buffing mech. Like BW mech vs Protoss was very entertaining, and Vultures allowed terran to stay busy even if their main army couldn't move out right away. Goliaths were the same supply as tanks and didn't need add ons to be made from a factory, only an armory to be built. Goliaths were weaker but much faster and more mobile, with much higher dps(almost the same as a turret), and because more could be built for the price of a thor, more ground/air could be covered.
The idea is, because sc2 mech is very weak against Protoss and not all that great until maxed in TvT, that there is a lot of turtling when going mech. If mech was buffed or made more viable, Mech users would move out more and trade armies more often, creating more interesting games. Of course this is the idea on paper, what those effective changes would be? nobody really knows because most of us look at it terms of what should be redesigned(fed up of the sc2 units that do exist, and what could happen in an expansion or new game), and not necessarily improving what already exists.
BW TvP style would NOT work in SC2 though. As I posted before in this thread - the real problem for SC2 is it's economy. In BW the turtling player could have been punished by the opponent expanding more. This is not the case in SC2 because of it's economy cap at 3 bases. What exactly I mean by this: In BW when it was 40 workers vs 40 workers, 1 player turtling on 3 bases, the other player could have taken 5 bases and even with the same amount of workers, the player on 5 bases would have an advantage. This advantage would allow him to get more army and/or tech and effectively punish the turtling player. In TvP specifically that lead into waves of protoss units rushing into the almost-unbeateable terran deathball. In SC2 though, when it is 60 workers against 60 (using 60 as you need more workers in general in SC2), it DOESN'T MATTER if you have 3 bases or 5. You still have the same income. This sucks as it eliminates any opportunity for turtling player to be effectively punished. The mechanic I described above is imo one of the most important mechanic of any good RTS and SC2 is just lacking it. It was pointed out time after time by various members of community, and I just cannot imagine any reason why NOT TO implement something like this, as it would effectively get players a way to 'solve' all the worst things about SC2 that watchers hate - be it the WoL times of infestor/brood lord (yes, this would probably not happen with such a mechanic) or the protoss deathball turtling that we see throught both - WoL and HotS. And if mech will be buffed to the point of it being standard, it will bring the same deathball-style problems. The funniest thing is, no one EVER asked Dustin Browder (in interview or AMA) if they know about this, if they thought about it (or maybe they still do) and most importantly if there is any chance for it to be implemented. Because quite frankly, balance is not the problem of SC2, some of the design choices are.
These are some very good points and most people probably havent thought about it. There might be a few minorities that have brought up this issues but the majority of the people are more worried about the units themselves. Fixing the mentioned points might fix the game, but blizzard is pretty short sighted and they will just fix the surface problem instead of the underlying problem. It is very unlikely that the economy thing will ever be changed because it would leads to a massive change in playstyle and strategy. While that is not necessarily a bad thing, blizzard approach now is to try and cater to the "casuals" as much as possible so they won't do that. Remember, this is the company that allowed close spawn for a year and a half because "casuals wont be able to learn the game if the map is too big".
On January 03 2014 09:14 MoonyD wrote: Can't quite help but to feel with the PO nerf early game PvP expand builds will be dead. Plus, this is going to affect the PvT matchup in regards to templar opening quite dramatically. A 10 second nerf would be ok, but 20 seconds is a bit of an overkill in my opinion.
The roach burrow movement buff should prove to be quite useful when playing protoss who open air with no robo tech/observers. As for the mech air buff, that's a bit un-necessary. Mass vikings with their range can already kite most air units (apart from maybe the tempest, but that's kinda the point).
On January 03 2014 09:14 MoonyD wrote: Can't quite help but to feel with the PO nerf early game PvP expand builds will be dead. Plus, this is going to affect the PvT matchup in regards to templar opening quite dramatically. A 10 second nerf would be ok, but 20 seconds is a bit of an overkill in my opinion.
The roach burrow movement buff should prove to be quite useful when playing protoss who open air with no robo tech/observers. As for the mech air buff, that's a bit un-necessary. Mass vikings with their range can already kite most air units (apart from maybe the tempest, but that's kinda the point).
They aren't going to buff Sky-Terran in any significant way because of TvZ. It has nothing to do with TvP.
I am a Terran player and I do not want Terran air to be buffed. I think that massing Ravens is extremely boring to watch and very hard to kill. Getting them is hard, yes, but even now it is possible to do it. If it gets buffed, it will become the Terran BL / Infestor. Ravens should get nerfed, BCs buffed (if you really want to touch air) and ground mech buffed as well. The + damage to armored from tanks might be the perfect change for the tank.
Thors still seem ineffective in most compositions, it should maybe be looked at. Also, the Hellbat <> Hellion transformation service is never used and could use a cost reduction.
They're keeping the oracle buff in place...even after all of the proxy oracle rushes that it caused. The buff didn't even do what it was supposed to do. And now they're nerfing photon overcharge? Did they forget that PvP is a matchup? Disgusting.
avilo makes this mech thing work tho. he does a lot of useless complaining but generally hes played and practiced it enough he looks fairly good at it. i can only imagine all games going like the ones he played on tonights stream . . it really looks like the opp has no chance
On January 03 2014 09:11 anestetic wrote: 16 patches later,the most awkward happens,all zerg units can move while burrowed...altho that would be fun,wouldn't it?
Remember burrowed baneling movement in the pre-alpha announcement? Pretty sure that got the biggest reaction from the crowd.
Btw a lot of PvPers are way overreacting. Macro PvP was not infrequent at the end of WoL, even when we had no photon overcharge. Sure, timewarp helps the offense, and it's clearly going to be harder to do than it is now. Doesn't mean it can't happen at all.
On January 03 2014 09:22 StatixEx wrote: avilo makes this mech thing work tho. he does a lot of useless complaining but generally hes played and practiced it enough he looks fairly good at it. i can only imagine all games going like the ones he played on tonights stream . . it really looks like the opp has no chance
It's hard to integrate what avilo's doing in balance discussions because most sane people can't stand hearing him for more than 3 minutes :p
On January 03 2014 08:01 Lorch wrote: The issue with photon overcharge is so not the duration. It is the fact that protoss gets it by investing into a gate + core, which you'd do anyways any game, and then pay 100 gas and mins. I'd make the overcharge and recall an upgrade at the cyber core or citadel of adun.
Also loving their logic: Randomly buff something, not everybode uses it all the time asap, buff it even more. Dat game balancing.
I would say the duration is a huge deal actually. Thats a warp in and a half worths of time right there where the opponent has to really wait to attack. By the time you do attack the second warp in is there......thus you can't do anything but go home.
If they're trying to see more burrowed roach micro, why don't they just put a separate hotkey for burrowing and unburrowing and fix the thing people have been pissed off for 3 and a half years about?
On January 03 2014 09:24 Nebuchad wrote: Btw a lot of PvPers are way overreacting. Macro PvP was not infrequent at the end of WoL, even when we had no photon overcharge. Sure, timewarp helps the offense, and it's clearly going to be harder to do than it is now. Doesn't mean it can't happen at all.
This isn't wol, oracles kill like 6 probes if only 2 stalkers are there and voidrays destroy everything except focus fire from PO as well as archons(and you can't get archons early game)
On January 03 2014 08:52 -HuShang- wrote: lol these are really bad changes except for looking at mech. Blizzard trying to buff midgame zerg units which are already super cost efficient vs protoss gateway units is silly ^^. If you're a zerg you should just stephano max with speed burrow roach and never lose if you have good multitask.
But more importantly why the photon overcharge nerf is stupid. By nerfing the length of photon overcharge you're basically making it impossible to expand in pvp. In pvt its now basically impossible to open templar. In PvZ it actually doesn't matter. Stephano style roach max will be harder to hold but still doable of course.
What should have been nerfed(I play protoss so im only commenting on protoss matchups) -oracle (it makes pvp a coinflip quite often and also is too strong in pvt) -immortal(immortal all in is quite strong. Possibly too strong? Also, it doesnt effect any other matchups too much besides pvz) -viper vs ht (Should be changed so its more like ghost vs ht. Microable by both sides and fun back and forth.)
Notice I didn't change anything dumb that doesn't break other matchups unlike the above changes.. zzz
In my opinion:
1. Buff the Infestor instead. Increase its Light damage back to 36 from 30 and its Armored damage back to 48 from 40. With the projectile nerf in HotS itself, it would have seemed more balanced to have it deal higher damage. It would also boost the viability of Ling/Bling/Infestor and Roach/Hydra/Infestor massively and improve Zerg performance vs Protoss in the later game.
2. Buff Siege Tank damage vs Armored to 60 or 70, from 50. Also buff its damage vs Massive to 70 so that it does more damage vs units like Archons that are massive but not armored.
3. Remove the Thor and bring back the Goliath. Only with decent AA can you make TvX Mech viable once again.
4. Have Photon Overcharge cancel once you kill the Mothership Core instead of nerfing its duration.
If you don't have anything useful to do Blizzard, please leave the game ALONE. They must have thought the oracle buff wasn't enough to worsen the rock-paper-scissors factor in PvP, so they've decided to come up with yet another needless change that makes it even more unstable.
Protoss players still need to rely on mind reading skills to know if a zerg player has built a spire for mutas, corruptors, both, or just to laugh at the protoss for blindly making phoenix so as not to straight up die to a muta flock. Even the worst ladder zergs are able to abuse that. In the meantime, all blizzard can think of is a roach buff that mostly affects an already zerg-favored matchup.
More worried about timewarp over photon overcharge. Timewarp completely destroys any sort of back and forth. It is just not fun to see units running away that can not do anything. At least, with photon overcharge, things can be done.
Nevertheless, photon overcharge still nullifies many attacks, making early/mid game boring: macro up to a okay army, push out to find a photon overcharge, run away. Boring.
Also, a huge "no" to the by-default upgraded energy for ghosts. Doing the same for siege tanks was already bad enough.
On January 03 2014 09:30 Clbull wrote: 2. Buff Siege Tank damage vs Armored to 60 or 70, from 50. Also buff its damage vs Massive to 70 so that it does more damage vs units like Archons that are massive but not armored.
I am unaware if anyone has posted/suggested this already, but plenty of people are still complaining about the mcore and how these changes will not change anything. Why not implement some of the mcore abilities as upgrades at the cybernetics core. I think having these as cheap(ish) upgrades would get the protoss to think about the direction they want to take their early game.
For example, if the nexus overcharge was an upgrade at the cyber core, then the protoss would have to think whether to play defensively and get this before warp gate. It could also allow for the protoss to scout more often as the scouting would affect their decisions in this area. Say they scout and see an aggressive opening, this may trigger them to spend resources to get the nexus cannon upgrade....or if they are comfortable in their micro or skill, they can skip the upgrade to have the extra resources. This may result in the other player gaining an advantage because the protoss skipped the overcharge upgrade.
This may also change the aggressive blink all ins for protoss and terran. Say the protoss favours the "timewarp" upgrade at the cyber core and neglects the overcharge to maximise the efficiency of their timing attack. Then if the blink all in goes wrong, then the retaliation by the Terran may be more effective as the Protoss skipped the overcharge upgrade and will take some extra damage.
To summarise, I think having some/most/all of the Mcore abilities as upgrades at the cyber core will get the Protoss to think how they want to open, and whether they want to skip certain upgrades in favour of extra resources or play safe and get the upgrades regardless
On January 03 2014 09:19 Moobla wrote: They're keeping the oracle buff in place...even after all of the proxy oracle rushes that it caused. The buff didn't even do what it was supposed to do. And now they're nerfing photon overcharge? Did they forget that PvP is a matchup? Disgusting.
20second nerf is a bit much, maybe 10sconds if they go that route. I'd prefer they either lower the range a little bit (one or two less) and reduce mothershipcore vision range.
On January 03 2014 09:30 Clbull wrote: 2. Buff Siege Tank damage vs Armored to 60 or 70, from 50. Also buff its damage vs Massive to 70 so that it does more damage vs units like Archons that are massive but not armored.
Mech air? Is there a Terran bio air we are not aware of?
Anyway, the Siege Tank has to stop sucking against Protoss. None of this crap of buffing air as it will just lead to turtle to mass Raven/air boring games like we already sometimes see in TvZ.
Just fix the cretin Immortal/Archon >>>>Siege Tank imbalance. And tone down the Blinding Cloud to.
On January 03 2014 09:19 Moobla wrote: They're keeping the oracle buff in place...even after all of the proxy oracle rushes that it caused. The buff didn't even do what it was supposed to do. And now they're nerfing photon overcharge? Did they forget that PvP is a matchup? Disgusting.
Leave photon overcharge as it is, increase energy required for time warp(nerfing offensive msc capabilities), nerf oracle (so we can actually play pvp, and it;s kinda really strong in pvt) buff phoenix in acceleration or speed or both (muta in zvp is just...and it's like the most micro intensive unit in the game, rewarding skilled players and very well designed, more phoenix usage would be great for the game).
Roach change won't do anything, reasoning for low usage of that was already mentioned many times, it gets into the game too late, but if it got earlier would be op as it already nulifies forcefields quite well.
On January 03 2014 09:47 Spec wrote: Seriously why is Blizzard so hell-bent on buffing mech? It's boring as shit to watch and seizure-inducing to play as and against.
I could point out a whole race that is exactly like that
But don't you think it is a problem that a whole tech tree is worthless?
On January 03 2014 07:51 mewo wrote: Won't the msc thing just screw up pvp? Were terrans really worried about chain photon overcharges?
1) Who gives a shit, it's a mirror matchup, and the nerf won't hurt macro PvP play. 2) Not just Protoss, Zerg too. Terran can't push in against Protoss early, which is the ONLY timing where they can have truly cost efficient engages without completely outplaying the Protoss (EMP, focus Colossi with Vikings, kite kite kite, and don't forget to macro). Greedy openings by Protoss players also became far less risky, which makes the window for Terrans to do meaningful damage even smaller. Chaining Photon Overcharges lasts 2 minutes. Do you know how much they can get in 2 minutes with CHRONO BOOST?! You came as my first Colossi was about to pop. Congratulations! At the end of Photon Overcharge, my THIRD one will pop. Oh, you came later than that? Well guess you're just dead then. Honestly, it doesn't even feel like forcing a Photon Overcharge on a greedy Protoss is worth anything really. You're better off trying to get a big army, somehow kill their big army cost efficiently, THEN run down their bases. But if you lose a fight in the middle of the map, you're as good as dead. The do or die matchup has become much harsher for Terrans. Protoss gained valueable tools in the PvT matchup. Terran did as well, but nothing that's usable for solid, macro play. Protoss learned to deal with Widow Mines less than a month from the full release. And they learned to deal with speed drops soon after (to the point where WoL drops would be an absolute joke to them). And Hellbats... They've been tried as a part of the main army with mixed success at best.
On January 03 2014 07:48 fried_rice wrote: I'm a Master League mech player and I fail to see how +armored damage is going to help at all, Tanks are pretty good against armored already (except Immortals), it's just that they are horrible against everything else.
I think he was meaning higher armored damage vs immortals. Strelok (I think) proposed a cool idea for siege tanks to keep the same damage but to split the DPS into two separate shots, so that the immortal shield would take less tank shots to break.
Just guessing though.
Well, making them do more armored damage would make them reasonably cost efficient against a Protoss army. But I feel a more reasonable change would be to give Tanks an upgrade that give them bonus damage versus shields the same way Widow Mines work. Like, 40/20/10 damage in a decaying AoE would be great.
Double attacks against Immortals would feel... Very weird. That also means it applies all armor defenses twice, which I don't like. I'd rather just give it an upgrade that does bonus damage versus shields (even if only on singular targets) or an upgrade that creates something like a shrapnel explosion effect that makes the Tank attack deal mild additional AoE damage applied over 3 ticks. Like, something like 15-30 damage over 3 ticks that scales with attack upgrades. So it deals 5-5-5 damage, 6.7-6.7-6.6 damage, 8.4-8.3-8.3 damage, and 10-10-10 damage at levels 0, 1, 2, and 3 attacks upgrades respectively. It could do less damage, which would make armor upgrades more impactful.
I don't like the idea of blindly saying, "we'll make Mech stronger". Mech doesn't really need to be outright buffed except against Protoss. Making Mech air stronger is also very dangerous. Ghosts definitely don't need the buff they suggested. It'd be nice, but most certainly unnecessary.
On January 03 2014 09:22 StatixEx wrote: avilo makes this mech thing work tho. he does a lot of useless complaining but generally hes played and practiced it enough he looks fairly good at it. i can only imagine all games going like the ones he played on tonights stream . . it really looks like the opp has no chance
It's hard to integrate what avilo's doing in balance discussions because most sane people can't stand hearing him for more than 3 minutes :p
Avilo may whine a lot, but he also makes a lot of valid points. Hes been saying this about protoss before anyone else, and all he got for it was being shat on. Then everyone came to the same conclusion.
On January 03 2014 10:03 Sakkreth wrote: Leave photon overcharge as it is, increase energy required for time warp(nerfing offensive msc capabilities), nerf oracle (so we can actually play pvp, and it;s kinda really strong in pvt) buff phoenix in acceleration or speed or both (muta in zvp is just...and it's like the most micro intensive unit in the game, rewarding skilled players and very well designed, more phoenix usage would be great for the game).
Roach change won't do anything, reasoning for low usage of that was already mentioned many times, it gets into the game too late, but if it got earlier would be op as it already nulifies forcefields quite well.
Phoenix already quite annoying in PvZ. It'll almost be like oracles in PvT, where they'd be able to kill an entire mineral line like it is nothing, because they can go in and out at high speeds ;p
seeing patch notes like this is literally just so sad is blizzard even really trying anymore at all? a 20 second nerf on the planetary nexus isnt going to make defending as toss any harder a range nerf might've.... they're literally just doing the same thing to zerg as last patch and it will still be useless... and why would they want to encourage mech if they also want to get rid of slow passive play being a thing (no one likes watching this bullshit besides goody who's literal trash.) its as if they just ran out of ideas and arent going to be bothered to come up with anything else... meanwhile you have people posting in forums in depth suggestions literally doing their fucking job for them and they wont take the help. please blizzard fire the entire sc2 balance team and actually make a change.
On January 03 2014 09:47 Spec wrote: Seriously why is Blizzard so hell-bent on buffing mech? It's boring as shit to watch and seizure-inducing to play as and against.
Maybe it's because only having one viable playstyle, one which is also boring as shit is also terrible for the game. I would account on the vast majority of people getting bored of watching TvP by this point. I know it put me off watching the game entirely.
Mech is only super boring at the minute as it's so bad so you can't ever split up your army.
On January 03 2014 09:22 StatixEx wrote: avilo makes this mech thing work tho. he does a lot of useless complaining but generally hes played and practiced it enough he looks fairly good at it. i can only imagine all games going like the ones he played on tonights stream . . it really looks like the opp has no chance
It's hard to integrate what avilo's doing in balance discussions because most sane people can't stand hearing him for more than 3 minutes :p
Avilo may whine a lot, but he also makes a lot of valid points. Hes been saying this about protoss before anyone else, and all he got for it was being shat on. Then everyone came to the same conclusion.
On January 03 2014 09:22 StatixEx wrote: avilo makes this mech thing work tho. he does a lot of useless complaining but generally hes played and practiced it enough he looks fairly good at it. i can only imagine all games going like the ones he played on tonights stream . . it really looks like the opp has no chance
It's hard to integrate what avilo's doing in balance discussions because most sane people can't stand hearing him for more than 3 minutes :p
Avilo may whine a lot, but he also makes a lot of valid points. Hes been saying this about protoss before anyone else, and all he got for it was being shat on. Then everyone came to the same conclusion.
Avilo was bitching about protoss during GomTvT.
Far sighted seer I think not.
A lot of people dislike the way Protoss was designed in starcraft 2 in general, Most pros agree it has a terrible design in SC2. Protoss has always been a gimmicky race due to the way it works. forcefield is the worst designed crap in sc2.
On January 03 2014 09:47 Spec wrote: Seriously why is Blizzard so hell-bent on buffing mech? It's boring as shit to watch and seizure-inducing to play as and against.
Your opinion. Tis just that.
Objectively, it's a variety and diversity thing.
You hear talk all the time about how stale the metagame is ESPECIALLY in TvP. Addressing Mech addresses that problem.
You might not like it, but trust me there are many more players out there that do.
Give siege tank 2 different siege modes like a 1 second switch to toggle those mode. If this would affect a lot early game you can make this new mode an upgrade:
1) Regular siege mode we know with same stats. 2) Anti-shield mode: while in this mode tank ONLY TARGETS units with SHIELDS and DOESN'T attack targets that have any shield remaining but i need to explain better this aspect.
The AI must follow this order to focus a target: 1) Look for the target with the highest amount of shield remaining in range and focus it. 2) If no more targets with shields are available the tank DOESN'T fire at all. 3) If there are 2 or more units with shield points remaining, always focus fire the target with more shield available ( to make sure you are dealing the highest amount of damage to the enemy ). 4) If there are 2 or more units with the same amount of shield points remaining, always focus fire the target with the highest amount of shield points it has by default. 5) The splash damage done in this mode is done ONLY TO SHIELDS; this means that targets that doesn't have shield/ remaining shield DOESN'T TAKE DAMAGE AT ALL. 6) The stats for the damage can be adjusted as you want blizzard but OBVIOUSLY it must be better than damage vs NON-ARMORED cause otherwise you will remain on the regular siege mode and worse than damage vs ARMORED cause you don't want to wipe all shields in the glimpse of an eye. I suggest those stats: Fire rate: 2.7 ( or the old 3 before last patch ). Damage: 45 ( i don't know if 45 it's a bit too much, maybe 40, but obviously this needs tests, tests, tests, tests.). Splash: same as regular siege mode with radial reduction and other things.
WHY I THINK THIS IS GOOD: you will give siege tank A TOTALLY NEW ROLE never saw in TvP and will make a static unit which doesn't requires a lot of micro a tool for pro gamers which can focus at their will units right and left on the screen and also it's up to the player which tanks you want in this mode and don't forget HOW MANY TANKS YOU WANT IN THE NORMAL MODE FOR THE ANTI ARMORED ROLE. You will see a lot of swap between those modes otherwise you are cutting your dps! REMEMER: WHEN ALL SHIELDS ARE DOWN THOSE TANKS DOESN'T FIRE!!!! so you need to swap modes in the fight to make sure those units are still DOING DAMAGE!!!! I don't know why this makes soo much sense in my mind but pls comment my idea. Not with those commets "wooo terransimbaaa nerf plss" "mech is boooorinnng bleahhh" "omggg another goody wanna beeee". Comments about stats: THIS IS NOT NEXT PATCH INCOMING!!! stats can be revised ANYWAY you want but in those ranges ( it MUST be much convenient than damage vs NON-ARMORED and uncovenient vs ARMORED ).
At last i wish you can do this: MAKE A FREAKING COOL ANIMATION OF TANK AND HIS SHELLS!!! i know you can do this guys love blue color.. DO IT!!! :D:D:D
On January 03 2014 09:24 Nebuchad wrote: Btw a lot of PvPers are way overreacting. Macro PvP was not infrequent at the end of WoL, even when we had no photon overcharge. Sure, timewarp helps the offense, and it's clearly going to be harder to do than it is now. Doesn't mean it can't happen at all.
This isn't wol, oracles kill like 6 probes if only 2 stalkers are there and voidrays destroy everything except focus fire from PO as well as archons(and you can't get archons early game)
yup. and MSC made offensive blink stalker builds stronger. and DT's got cheaper. so many offensive pvp builds got buffed and photon overcharge helped balance that out
I think the PO duration nerf is not enough, maybe 30 seconds.. as for the terran mech buffs /emp?! I have no idea since nothing concrete was presented.
Lol too much terran tears. they cut down 20s FFS to the only protoss actual defense has and still crying
also the photon overcharge will affect pvp the most i think haha
On January 03 2014 09:22 StatixEx wrote: avilo makes this mech thing work tho. he does a lot of useless complaining but generally hes played and practiced it enough he looks fairly good at it. i can only imagine all games going like the ones he played on tonights stream . . it really looks like the opp has no chance
It's hard to integrate what avilo's doing in balance discussions because most sane people can't stand hearing him for more than 3 minutes :p
Avilo may whine a lot, but he also makes a lot of valid points. Hes been saying this about protoss before anyone else, and all he got for it was being shat on. Then everyone came to the same conclusion.
Avilo was bitching about protoss during GomTvT.
Far sighted seer I think not.
A lot of people dislike the way Protoss was designed in starcraft 2 in general, Most pros agree it has a terrible design in SC2. Protoss has always been a gimmicky race due to the way it works. forcefield is the worst designed crap in sc2.
The root of the design issue is warp gate, FF is just a symptom.
Anyway, I like the overcharge change. Enough of a nerf that it can't completely nullify early aggression, still strong enough that toss doesn't flat out lose to it if they miss a single FF. The biggest issue will probably be that it indirectly buffs oracles in PvP, which might make it really goofy or coin flippy.
On January 03 2014 09:19 Moobla wrote: They're keeping the oracle buff in place...even after all of the proxy oracle rushes that it caused. The buff didn't even do what it was supposed to do. And now they're nerfing photon overcharge? Did they forget that PvP is a matchup? Disgusting.
What was the intended purpose for oracle buff?
Make players keep it alive longer
The Oracle buff made the Oracle viable vs Zerg. At the moment when a Protoss opens Oracle they gun down as many Dronse as they can under Queen fire and escape with like 10ish HP and 7 or 8 Drone kills if they micro well. Before the buff you could never kill enough Drones unless you sacked the Oracle. Now you can actually make Oracles vs Zerg without assisting Gateway pressure .
On January 03 2014 10:49 Aurex wrote: silence protosses, if they give ghosts energy built in maybe we can finally get the KA Back
Ghosts take time to build and then you need to walk it across the map. Camping the Barracks is pretty much GG for the Terran player. High Templars on the other hand can be warped in from a proxy pylon and then instant storm if the stupid Amulet is back.
On January 03 2014 09:24 Nebuchad wrote: Btw a lot of PvPers are way overreacting. Macro PvP was not infrequent at the end of WoL, even when we had no photon overcharge. Sure, timewarp helps the offense, and it's clearly going to be harder to do than it is now. Doesn't mean it can't happen at all.
This isn't wol, oracles kill like 6 probes if only 2 stalkers are there and voidrays destroy everything except focus fire from PO as well as archons(and you can't get archons early game)
yup. and MSC made offensive blink stalker builds stronger. and DT's got cheaper. so many offensive pvp builds got buffed and photon overcharge helped balance that out
Id hate to think what would happen if one didnt have a msc. Oh wait...
I absolutely don't want to see Ghosts come out of the gates with their energy buff. Seriously, thats a Mech buff? If you're gonna buff Mech don't buff it through a bio unit please.
I would rather see the Thor become a better unit and have some utility against Immortals.
EDIT: Changes I'd like to see
Photon Overcharge costs 125 energy.
Thor smaller, builds quicker, gets a revamped 250mm Strike Cannon that does like 90 damage with a 1 second channel or something and a cooldown rather than an energy bar.
Colossus nerfed in whatever way suitable, I'd like it to be slower though. Maybe less damage with a larger AoE? I dunno exactly, I'd like to see it tuned to be more of a support unit that requires lower tier units as more than just meat shields.
Stalker animation tuned so that stutterstepping them is actually effective. People complain about Protoss micro, well they want micro, we want micro, Stalker is the easiest unit to make more microable. Do it please. <3
I think the PO duration nerf is not enough, maybe 30 seconds.. as for the terran mech buffs /emp?! I have no idea since nothing concrete was presented.
Lol too much terran tears. they cut down 20s FFS to the only protoss actual defense has and still crying
also the photon overcharge will affect pvp the most i think haha
as you say that the tears are flowing from your eyes :D
Honestly, I think the problem with siege tanks lies in the underlying gameplay mechanics rather than the units itself. Blizzard obviously didn't want the same ole' with Starcraft 2, and as a result released units that essentially hard-countered the siege tank from a both balance and lore perspective. There are other factors to consider as well, and yes I'm including lore factors into this because it's more fun that way:
1. The Crucio siege tank is a lot less powerful than the Arclite it replaced. 2. The Zealots were given charge upgrades to close the distance with siege lines. 3. The Immortal was born to soak up the siege damage. 4. The Colossus is significantly more mobile than the Reavers that it replaced, allowing it to engage the Terran frontlines much more quickly. 5. Because of the Crucio inferiority, it's a lot less effective against Archons. 6. Although siege tanks are actually fairly effective against Stalkers, the Blink ability allows them to move into position to start focus firing down siege tanks much more effectively.
So pretty much everything about Protoss was conceptually designed to counter the Terran siege line, and because the siege tank is the backbone of the mech army, this makes Protoss extremely effective at dealing with them.
Now let's talk about Zerg (where at least the siege tank has some teeth):
1. The Crucio is a lot less powerful than the Arclite it replaced. 2. The introduction of Banelings requires Terran to be substantially more mobile to properly counter; a luxury siege lines do not have. 3. Vipers effectively nullify mech with blinding cloud and abduction. 4. Widow Mines are just more versatile, more mobile, do more up front damage, and are cheaper and quicker to replace.
So bringing back "da siege tank" is going to be a very difficult thing to do without rebalancing the game. And if you ask me, the state of the game is actually pretty good with the exception of mech (TvP). So what can we do? Here are some ideas, and feel free to shoot them down:
1. Borrow the Maelstrom Rounds upgrade from the single player campaign, perhaps. Blizzard introduced the Hellbat to help deal with Zealot charges, but the friendly fire damage from siege lines just aids Protoss in this case. This would also help assist with increasing the effectiveness of siege tanks against hyper-mobile zerg forces. 2. Play with increasing damage to shields as stated above. This would increase the effectiveness against Protoss but change nothing to other Terran and Zerg players (where mech isn't so pitiful in comparison). 3. I just can't see Vipers nullifying siege tanks with blinding cloud. Even modern day tanks have very advanced targeting systems that cut through smoke, dust, and darkness. I usually don't advocate individual unit nerfs, but Starcraft 2 takes place in the early 2500s. Every Terran and Protoss units are going to have targeting systems that cut through blinding cloud. But hey, fusing two souls together to form and Archon doesn't make [realistic] sense either, and that's part of the fun of the game! lol 4. Change the starting armor of the siege tank to 2. Currently it has 1, which is the same as a zealot and a marauder. I mean, it's a tank for crying out loud. It should be heavily armored!
Note - I'm actually starting to see Thors mixed in with 4M gameplay against zerg nowadays.
Note #2 - Yes, some of my suggestions are a bit on the radical side, but they're there to add ideas and get creativity going, not make the siege tank overpowered.
I'd like to see the removal of bio status on the hellbat, so that it's no longer shredded by archons, so that it can do a better job of stopping zealots.
Also nowadays people can run under tank fire, take two volleys but get out barely scratched, I'd prefer tanks to deal more flat damage with lower attack speed. Its frigging artillery damn it
Rather have an Oracle nerf instead of Overcharge. I think Overcharge should still go down even more, maybe to 30 seconds or something. Still ridiculous how much time it can buy.
On January 03 2014 11:24 Bagi wrote: Can't believe they are protoss players against a PO nerf.
I was under the impression that it was universally thought of as a bullshit ability, and the nerf is really minor anyway.
It's not minor at all. And just because you're nerfing the right thing doesn't mean you're doing it right (notice how a lot of terrans criticized the change).
what they need to do to make more viable versus toss is nerf the immortal It hard counters mech. What blizzard is trying to do is make u build bio with mech which you should not do because mech players already have a lot to think about and it would just be to hard to mech versus toss also immortal still a problem.
How about giving tanks +massive bonus damage similar to that of the tempest. That way they can counter colossus better. I think increased +armored will make stalker/roach fights against tanks even more 1 sided than it already is.
Protoss when terrans cry : "you should get over it, protoss was weak for X years and we never bitched about it, blablabla, better players always win, blablabla". Protoss when they got nerfed : "OUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN ! Dkim u a**hole ouin ouin *snif*".
Nerf mutas, colossus and bio. Make 10 harvesters optimal. Everything will pan out well.
And also remove brood lord and swarm host.
edit: Also the attack delay (as shown by the "depth of micro" vid) should be totally removed, the overkill prevention as well and locking turrets should be enabled. So cool.
Terran can go 3cc + double ebay, deny protoss scouting until they're already economically behind, and still hold off immortal busts and stuff by just builing enough bunkers at the front. Terran can go cc first and be safe from anything but proxy gateways, while 11-11 can work just fine even against msc expand.
I wish I could complain about not being able to go nexus first or triple nexus safely as much as some terran players complain about the mothership core.
msc nerf seems fine but I doubt it really does what is intended much, still i'm in favor of nerfing the defensive capabilities of the msc. I would eventually like to see a small buff to recall usage, it's a cool thing that hardly get's used much in PvT for example.
Roach burrow movement buff seems good too, will the 2.25 speed be that without roach speed too? Either way seems like (immortal) sentry pushes can be stopped quite well with burrow now.
As for mech change i'd hate to see it by a ghost buff. Ghost buff reinforces bio more than mech probably.
Few things I'd like to see: - Oracle changed from light to armored. This matters absolutely nothing in PvZ where the oracle is fine. It matters slightly for PvT where vikings become a bit better to stop oracles which can help mech a little. In PvP especially though it matters a lot where oracles can be stopped by stalkers a little easier, now oracle harass seems too dominant and especially if the msc is nerfed too I feel it may become too risky to expand once again in PvP (if it isn't already). - Tank changed to double shot, ie 2 x 18(+2) / 2x 25(+3) instead of 35(+3) / 50(+5). This would be a buff against immortals especially and a tiny buff against some other stuff plus a tiny nerf against ultralisks, exactly what would be needed to make the tank good in TvP without breaking it elsewhere. - Thor stronger anti-air, possibly ground damage weakened. Large problem of mech is that it's very difficult to produce anti-air quickly enough. For zerg it's a little too easy to (threaten to) do a mutalisk switch and protoss air is a little too difficult to counter too. Especially with the widow mine nerfed before there isn't just good enough AA from the factory I feel. Thor stronger against air gives terran a bit more options to respond to air, in return the ground attack can be nerfed a little so it won't be too good to just mix in a few thor and never worry about air.
Mech isn't that far off now, just a few small nudges more and I think we can start seeing it regularely.
Quick thoughts, I posted this on blizz forums too:
1) Higher armored to siege tanks = bad.
Siege tanks don't need higher damage vs armored, they need higher damage vs all things PROTOSS. More damage to armored will screw up TvZ/TvT in some way or another, where Mech is already pretty good there and wouldn't change much regardless.
Instead of this, they simply need to give siege tanks more +damage to shields like they did for widow mines, then tanks will become a fearsome unit in this match-up that you cannot simply 1A and walk into like you currently can. Anyone that has played and tried to make mech work consistently for the longest time now...we all know the feeling of having an army already pre-sieged...and it gets completely walked over with zero micro from Protoss with immortals as if your army didn't exist.
2) Change to ghost EMP upgrade...
To me this seems like a continuous cop out to tone down the immortal vs mech. The immortal has been overperforming and stopping mech from being good against Protoss for the longest time...instead of going around the issue, they simply need to tone down the immortal against Terran mech, by toning down hardened shields, or something else.
This change basically just reeks of..."Hey, to make mech viable...we're gonna make you go bio!" lol
How about making mech/factory units be consistently viable in the match-up...that would be amazing.
3) Armory Price reduction to BROOD WAR PRICE of 100/50 can help out mech a lot.
If they want a step in the right direction, I will say this change for the millionth time. An issue with mech vs P is most games you will play the entire game upgrade handicapped with 1/1 vs 2/2 or sometimes you'll even be 1/1 vs 3/3.
Affording factories, starport, raven, blueflame, transformation, and then armories + upgrades on top of that...it's a huge reason why mech is not good vs Protoss. You're forced to turtle to get infrastructure up vs early game all-ins.
You always have to decide - do I want 2 more factories now? But then i guess i won't be upgrading this game... Or do you cut factories/raven and get double armory...which doesn't work. You cannot survive off of 1 factory and play "mech."
Armory price to brood war price would be a huge step in the right direction.
4) Photon overcharge change.
I want people to remember this post here and quote me when we see next patch TvP will be in just as bad of shape as it is now. This nerf does nothing to address the problem with the match-up - which is too many all-ins from Protoss, oracle too fast, and Terran has no all-ins available themselves.
But more so, Terran has not enough viable openings. The reason no one ever sees cloak banshee opener in TvP, or any similar style is because of all the all-ins, because of oracles, but because photon overcharge is a 1 click button that from 13 range will shut down your banshee and then since you do not have a second CC and Protoss has a second nexus, you are behind if you even attempt cloakbanshee.
Photon overcharge needs more than just a duration nerf imo.
So yeh...i don't think the current thing they propose of ONLY reducing nexus cannon duration will make TvP any better. 40 seconds is still way too much.
The best thing we can take from this though is that blizzard is going to attempt to balance the game again...TvP...
As for mech, I'm skeptical when they say they're taking feedback because myself, goody, strelok, htomario, other mech users etc. have given them feedback for months about mech TvP and none of it ever seems to be implemented or acknowledged in any way, shape, or form.
It seems to me that the problem with Terran mech in TvP and TvZ is how well Z and P do against mech without having scouted or prepared for it. Protoss pretty much demolishes it with Colossus/Storm which to me seems very unfair (picture going up against toss as terran and failing to make [enough] vikings against Col/Storm... get ready to gg after one battle)... To that end, I think that blizz should buff Mech armor vs electric damage (storm, colossus zap) and make storms shell out equal damage to enemy and friendly forces (I have no idea why that's not already the case ??) As far as TvZ I have no idea how to make mech workable without adding a new terran unit... Z units just come out too quickly and trade too well with little/no micro. Mech just can't keep up in an equally skilled game...
On January 03 2014 11:35 Faust852 wrote: Protoss when terrans cry : "you should get over it, protoss was weak for X years and we never bitched about it, blablabla, better players always win, blablabla". Protoss when they got nerfed : "OUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN ! Dkim u a**hole ouin ouin *snif*".
For real ?
Sounds like exactly what terrans do. It's almost as if we were all competitive human beings. Shocking, I know Oô
PvP was getting interesting nowadays and with the nerf, we will return to the 4gate era.
EDIT: As of the mech buff, it will break TvZ. Mech is good as it is now, and the problem in pvt, is that Terrans focus solely on the damn siege tanks. For me, the core mech unit in pvt sc2 is the banshee, not the siege tank.
On January 03 2014 11:05 Ranari wrote: Honestly, I think the problem with siege tanks lies in the underlying gameplay mechanics rather than the units itself. Blizzard obviously didn't want the same ole' with Starcraft 2, and as a result released units that essentially hard-countered the siege tank from a both balance and lore perspective. There are other factors to consider as well, and yes I'm including lore factors into this because it's more fun that way:
1. The Crucio siege tank is a lot less powerful than the Arclite it replaced. 2. The Zealots were given charge upgrades to close the distance with siege lines. 3. The Immortal was born to soak up the siege damage. 4. The Colossus is significantly more mobile than the Reavers that it replaced, allowing it to engage the Terran frontlines much more quickly. 5. Because of the Crucio inferiority, it's a lot less effective against Archons. 6. Although siege tanks are actually fairly effective against Stalkers, the Blink ability allows them to move into position to start focus firing down siege tanks much more effectively.
So pretty much everything about Protoss was conceptually designed to counter the Terran siege line, and because the siege tank is the backbone of the mech army, this makes Protoss extremely effective at dealing with them.
Now let's talk about Zerg (where at least the siege tank has some teeth):
1. The Crucio is a lot less powerful than the Arclite it replaced. 2. The introduction of Banelings requires Terran to be substantially more mobile to properly counter; a luxury siege lines do not have. 3. Vipers effectively nullify mech with blinding cloud and abduction. 4. Widow Mines are just more versatile, more mobile, do more up front damage, and are cheaper and quicker to replace.
So bringing back "da siege tank" is going to be a very difficult thing to do without rebalancing the game. And if you ask me, the state of the game is actually pretty good with the exception of mech (TvP). So what can we do? Here are some ideas, and feel free to shoot them down:
1. Borrow the Maelstrom Rounds upgrade from the single player campaign, perhaps. Blizzard introduced the Hellbat to help deal with Zealot charges, but the friendly fire damage from siege lines just aids Protoss in this case. This would also help assist with increasing the effectiveness of siege tanks against hyper-mobile zerg forces. 2. Play with increasing damage to shields as stated above. This would increase the effectiveness against Protoss but change nothing to other Terran and Zerg players (where mech isn't so pitiful in comparison). 3. I just can't see Vipers nullifying siege tanks with blinding cloud. Even modern day tanks have very advanced targeting systems that cut through smoke, dust, and darkness. I usually don't advocate individual unit nerfs, but Starcraft 2 takes place in the early 2500s. Every Terran and Protoss units are going to have targeting systems that cut through blinding cloud. But hey, fusing two souls together to form and Archon doesn't make [realistic] sense either, and that's part of the fun of the game! lol 4. Change the starting armor of the siege tank to 2. Currently it has 1, which is the same as a zealot and a marauder. I mean, it's a tank for crying out loud. It should be heavily armored!
Note - I'm actually starting to see Thors mixed in with 4M gameplay against zerg nowadays.
Note #2 - Yes, some of my suggestions are a bit on the radical side, but they're there to add ideas and get creativity going, not make the siege tank overpowered.
Honestly, I'd start with making shields take full damage from all damage types.(at least more than they currently do)
It would make the match up significantly less volatile, which might open up more options for the Terran player.
On January 03 2014 11:24 Bagi wrote: Can't believe they are protoss players against a PO nerf.
I was under the impression that it was universally thought of as a bullshit ability, and the nerf is really minor anyway.
The only people actually for it are people that don't understand how to force the nexus cannon early in pvt /terrans that are being suped biased and saying they want to be able to punish protoss early. Which is basically the same as saying they want their own blink all in. Which, should probably be nerfed. So they're basically being hypocrites xD.
I'm a protoss player, and i couldn't be happier with the Overcharge change - 60 seconds is silliness. It makes some PvP games so infuriating. I would even be happier with 30 second nerf
The mech changes were vague so I don't know what to think about it. I like shortening the overcharge though; it made a lot of cool timing attacks negated by a really boring wait. Now it can still have a defensive function without being as much of a no-fun spell
If they want to make the roach more interesting I wish they would just get rid of the infestor-type burrow movement and give them something like the burrow charge ability the ultralisk had in the HotS beta. No stun or AoE damage or whatever that was going to do, just an upgraded ability the roach can use while burrowed that allows it to charge to the targeted location and it plays that same rapid burrowing animation the ultra ability had. Exciting, cool animation, uses existing assets they have already built and tested, fits the zerg feeling, makes roach vs roach more entertaining, useful for closing distance or getting out of range rather than just getting under forcefields...
I mean herp derping a whole army of burrowed roaches past an army or into an enemy base with no detection was fun a couple times but its pretty rare that the ability is used for anything besides escaping force field anyway... I doubt anyone would really miss the ability to sneak across the whole map with them
I really despise the way blizzard talks about their changes. They're so vague. A change should be directed towards a very specific problem, not some generalizing claim like " oh, we want to give this style some more potency".
The PO change is likely targeted in the general direction of giving drop play a little more strength vs P, but in the process it makes SCV all ins stronger, and it also makes PvP even more 1 base oriented than it already is. I think these two things can, for the most part, be unanimously agreed to be negative side effects. Maybe blizzard is right, and we do need to buff drop plays, but do we have to do so in a way that also hinders much of what was good about PO?
I'm going to blow my lid here. Excuse me in advance. This is a total rant, but I think I have a point.
I'm sorry, but I think this whole MsC debacle has been gone about in an incredibly ham-handed way that doesn't address what really is at issue here, and that issue is that Gateway units just plain suck.
Has anyone asked why Protoss players feel like they have to scramble for a MsC as quickly as possible in their builds? Why are split Protoss armies so ineffective and thus always deathballed, whereas small pods of Terran bio drops or Zerg hit squads can do game-altering damage? Why do the successes or failures of singular attack timings tend to dominate games with Protoss in them, and a lost army almost universally means a lost game, whereas in TvZ you have these epic back-and-forth slugfests? Again, it's because Gateway units suck.
We rush for an MsC because we have to spend 125/50/2 on a unit that does less DPS than a ZERGLING. Try defending an early attack with just those and see how it goes. The MsC is a crutch we have to lean on.
Our drops get cleaned up really insanely easily for what they cost and our other harass options suck past the point when proxy openers lose their effectiveness (Terrans, if you want a lesson in humility, try to drop 400 or 800 minerals worth of Zealots at a Planetary, ignoring the missile turrets like you would cannons. See what happens when you try that.). Our static defense sucks so much that Medivacs just drop top of it with no care, and we can't resposition cannons either - in fact, we're the only race that can't reposition buildings. So, we turtle with the MsC.
Gateway units are so weak in small numbers and so reliant on Force Field to both do damage (corral units for chargelots) or defend themselves, that they have no choice but to clump. All they really do late game is soak damage and provide support for the splash units, such as Colossi and Templars, to do the actual work. If Colossi get hung up or storms get dodged, we're dead, numbers be damned.
We tech switch so freakishly expensively and slowly (saw you go Spire? Another 300/300 of Stargates, plus a 300/200 Fleet Beacon, plus a 150/150 upgrade....oh wait you just made more roaches and hydras anyways, over 600/600 thrown away not counting however many phoenix I made, lol wp gg) that we can't keep up late and therefore go for earlier game timings or excessively greedy third builds.
I know Protoss are doing well overall right now, but I get so confused when I see players try some stupid rush that only worked in WoL and then whine about how it doesn't work any more now. Well no kidding it doesn't work now, the game has changed, TRY NEW THINGS. I'm sorry your old marine-SCV all-in that you abused up to Masters your first season doesn't work any more. I'm sorry you can't seven pool into expand any more, now knowing that you can't count on Forge FE 100% of the time. I can't four gate everyone to oblivion any more and you don't see me whining (though nerf PO any more and I guarantee you'll see PvP become a 4gate fest again). Stuff happens, try new things - the pros are and they are winning against all races.
I'd actually prefer they get rid of the MsC - just chuck the whole stupid thing. Then you'd see how crappy Gateway units really are, and then you just might see the Protoss of yore that didn't rely on temporary walls to defend themselves but had units that had the firepower in small groups that their cost warrants.
And as far as the whole roach burrow thing goes, I see it work really well when used properly (want to know how to utterly defecate on a sentry-heavy army?) but I almost never see it used in the first place. I don't think it's the developers job to cheapen a skill or unit overly heavily until it gets used like they want to see it, let people figure it out on their own. It's not the devs fault that people aren't using tools available to them.
I personally think PO needs to be dropped all together and Figure out something that would make the MSC a Micro intensive unit that has the potential to stop all ins so that we would start seeing Skill Gaps appear that are real and not manufactured by a roll of the dice BO finished with a F Click instant Defense to anything....
The patch looks good. Nerfs where they are needed and buffs to stuff people are not using enough. Of course some people won't be happy until they can not shot immortals, but a buff to EMP is needed. Of course, they could just make it so ghosts are easier to get, since they seem to want to make it more "available".
I think, Blizzard should try to push more changes into Balance Test map. Just try to test more changes and revert them, if anything goes wrong. You should start to test a bit more, not two-three cosmetical changes that change nothing.
Here are my ideas and some explanation why these ideas may work and why they can solve some popular problems:
_________________________________________________
Nydus Worm
● Nydus rumble is cloaked and requires detection to be visible. ● Nydus Worm now costs 150 minerals and 150 gas
Nydus becomes more expensive, but it's now cloaked, so enemy should make a turret in the each corner of their base. Also buffed Sensor Tower with detection may help Terrans against it.
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Sensor Tower
● Sensor Tower now can be connected to Terran addons: -- Tech Lab connected - decreases sensor radius by 50% / hides it from enemy / highlights cloaked/burrowed units with red markers, but not reveals them. -- Reactor connected - doubles the sensor radius.
Solves many problems of slow army against fast drops / proxies, such as Oracle / Blink / Mutalisk / Prizm Drop / Speedivac / etc
_________________________________________________
Overseer
● Contaminate costs 100 energy. ● Overseer costs 1 supply and have 150 health / 0 starting armor.
Overseer becomes weaker, but more dangerous. It now can block 2 buildings at time of have full energy. To avoid problems with unlimited Overseers, Overseer itself now provides 7 supply, or it just costs 1 supply.
_________________________________________________
Ventral Sacs upgrade
● Ventral Sacs (Overlord Drop) upgrade moved to Hatchery level. This will allow for Zergs to rush into one of the rarely used tech-paths a bit earlier.
Terran can switch addons to make Starport make 2 Medivacs at time, or something like that. Allow Zergs to start research Overlord drop upgrade a bit earlier. That can be a special rush tactic from Zerg like Oracle / DT rush or fast-Banshee / Drop from Terran.
_________________________________________________
tl;dr Buff Zerg early-game harrassing options, allow them to make something similar to Oracle rush or Banshee rush, allow them to invest into one of the rarely used tech-patchs a bit earlier. Also make Sensor Tower as a blink-allins solver, make it work with Terran addons and get different benefits from both addons.
Thank you for reading and hope you will enjoy these changes, and imlement or even try to test something from these.
On January 03 2014 12:43 Chvol wrote: I really despise the way blizzard talks about their changes. They're so vague. A change should be directed towards a very specific problem, not some generalizing claim like " oh, we want to give this style some more potency".
The PO change is likely targeted in the general direction of giving drop play a little more strength vs P, but in the process it makes SCV all ins stronger, and it also makes PvP even more 1 base oriented than it already is. I think these two things can, for the most part, be unanimously agreed to be negative side effects. Maybe blizzard is right, and we do need to buff drop plays, but do we have to do so in a way that also hinders much of what was good about PO?
I have no clue why people are stating that PO has anything to do with PVP. 4gate era has been gone ages ago.
Right before Heart of the Swarm, PVP in wings evolved into massive macro style with mass colossi/immortal battles. There has not been 1 base vs 1 base in a long time, PO has nothing to do with that. Map choices do, back in the day the maps were so broken and small, best builds were 1 base all ins, that can be said for zvz and tvt to so can't even argue that with PO nerf.
PO reduction in time wont even be that game changing, protoss players really use it as a crutch more then anything. PO still has it's insane range, time reduction means it gives a better window for players to apply more aggression in the early game vs protoss.
Protoss can do anything they want in any part of the game, differently vs Terran, Blink all ins, or they can sit back on PO and afk building a death ball with out worry of drops or any kind of early attacks.
Terran has very little options vs protoss in the early game. at least in wings terran had a nice time to be aggressive when their first 2 medivacs popped out.
We believe we can push mech usage more as well. Some options we’re looking at here are: higher armored damage for siege tanks, easier access to EMP when going mech (such as building the energy upgrade into the unit), buffing mech air, and so on. However, this is the area in which we’re the least certain. Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated. Please keep in mind none of this is even close to final. We truly appreciate your feedback, and we’ll continue to carefully consider what you’ve got to say before we publish the next balance test map.
[/list]
Here's my taughts.
The problem with mech isnt that any unit is too bad at doing what it is supposed/designed to do.
The problem is how good the other races options are against the mech units, im talking about these units: Brood Lord, Swarm Host, Corruptor, Infestor, Immortal, Colussus, Tempest, Carrier. These units all destroy mech very easilly and nobody would ever encounter e mech army without these units. This is the huge problem of having units that are designed to be good specifically against other units, they will end up beeing too good against some not so intended units aswell and the gameplay becomes very one sided and boring.
I hate to have to bring back old Brood War to make a comparision. In Brood War we saw big ground armies smashing into the sitting mech army that was so strong against everything on the ground that it could spread itself thinly over a map and make so called "siege-tank" lines. Nothing in SC2 works like that, mech cant spread because if it does theres always a specific unit that the opponent can make that will go gover and kill mech units that doesnt have support from X, Y and Z basically for free.
So that's my taughts, and here are my Suggestions. Sine the problem is that the other races have specific units that will basically destroy mech and make the Terran player feel really stupid for making so many units that are now utter garbage I will suggest that it is these units that needs to be targeted in most cases. The problem is that this will affect other matchups aswell but let me go through what I think could be done to some of these units.
1. Brood Lord The big bad tank destroyer that will make hordes of staple siege tanks drop their pants (unsiege) and run for the hills. Nobody will ever make a significant number of tanks with a late-game in mind a long as there is no solution to the Brood Lord. At the moment you make vikings to combat the Brood Lord but the problem is that zerg then makes corruptors and infestors to beat your vikings and now we're transitioning out from mech into a air fight and so again you cant make a mech army for the late game in this state.
My suggestion is to make Vikings way stronger against Brood Lords and Corruptors, in fact I want them so strong that just a couple of them will scare the Zerg from making air units at all, I want to see mobile ground Zerg vs immobile and spread out strong Terran. Also the fact that Brood Lords will make every single Siege-Tank useless (staple mech unit.) suggest to me that there MUST be a powerfull and easy transition for the Terran to disencourage the Zerg from making Brood Lords against mech in the first place.
Also Brood Lord vs Mech is bad gameplay, two slowpoker siege/siege-breaker armies and very low intencity games. I Believe if my suggestion with just a couple of Vikings beeing able to really make Zerg wish he had not made those Brood Lords in the first place will push the matchup more into a ground vs. ground state with a small viking army ruling the air, patrolling and giving vision to Siege-Tanks.
Also if you need to make fewer vikings you become less voulnerable against fungal growth so the Zerg can't just keep making Brood Lord & Corruptor with some infestor support.
2. Swarm Host These units are a huge problem against mech, basically against a mech army these units take over the map (wich Zerg should be able to do against mech.), burrow and from there the Terran is never able to advance his possition at all. In fact they are so strong that they can actually do damage against Sieged Tanks, wich is too good and basically gives Zerg and options to lock down and destroy mech from afar without ever actually confronting the army.
Siege-tanks need to destroy loctus much easier, and so I will suggest a reduction in healthpoints on loctus. A balance needs to be reached as I still want Swarm Hosts to be able to send loctus into the mech army in order to slow it down and make it tougher to advance the army, but this should NEVER actually be a way for Zerg to engage and hurt the Terran.
So that's my suggestions for TvZ. Yes I do think these things would also target the Infestor and the Corruptor pretty well and hopefully push the matchup away from what we would see now if the Terran tried to do mech into something like Ultralisk-Viper for gas units and Zerglings as mineral-dump. This will make the Zerg VERY mobile and open up for sting attacks on Terran expansions and still beeing able to move and regroup to stop the mech from advancing too much. Also I think Infestors and Swarm Hosts would still have a place in this state but just not the same as they are now but more of a defensive controlling role rather offensive.
I'm going to have to think more about TvP suggestions but I still wanted to post this right now as I've felt these are changes I'd love to see for a long time in HotS.
I saw a toss go 1 gate nexus into double forge-blink templar archives of 1 gate then adding the gates and the T all-ins and P says - "consider if i did not have mo-core I would get REKT" like it if would actually be unjust if he loses.
Meanwhile protoss can all-in left and right like Gods and still have a lategame that is so strong and extremely easy for all non-progamers to handle. Like a random master PvT, equal skill massively favors the protoss, i just dislike how some people have no shame.
Same thing goes for me when i go mech vs random bio terran or zerg low-mid master, mech is actually so much easier than bio to use at that level. when the zerg get mad at my skyterran and pfs and thor-tank and helion run-bys and what have you I will man up and admit that he drew the short stick. I wont sit there and say, stop crying and l2p like so many toss player have been doing.
2. Swarm Host These units are a huge problem against mech, basically against a mech army these units take over the map (wich Zerg should be able to do against mech.), burrow and from there the Terran is never able to advance his possition at all. In fact they are so strong that they can actually do damage against Sieged Tanks, wich is too good and basically gives Zerg and options to lock down and destroy mech from afar without ever actually confronting the army.
Just remove Enduring Locust upgrade and make Locusts themselfs faster.
The big bad tank destroyer that will make hordes of staple siege tanks drop their pants (unsiege) and run for the hills. Nobody will ever make a significant number of tanks with a late-game in mind a long as there is no solution to the Brood Lord. At the moment you make vikings to combat the Brood Lord but the problem is that zerg then makes corruptors and infestors to beat your vikings and now we're transitioning out from mech into a air fight and so again you cant make a mech army for the late game in this state.
Seeker Missiles with Vikings and Yamatos already counter very well Broods-Corruptors.
make the Siege Tank a unit worth spending money on
make it so that .... out of 1000 games.. the typical Terran player spends as much money on Widow Mines as they do Siege Tanks... keep on nerfing Widow Mines and buffing Tanks until this happens.
i'd even vote for making the Tank more "micro"-able... the way the SC1 Seige Tank could fire on the move with the Turret remaining in position between shots would be a nice buff.
How do you guys feel about: "easier access to EMP when going mech (such as building the energy upgrade into the unit): -ghost academy increase cost by 50-50 or 50-100 and ghosts spawn with mobius "buffing mech air, and so on." landed vikes get buff, BCs get "change" something that makes not so shitty in tvp tvt, but not broken tvz, faster yamato cast time? remove energy and make yamato cool down (fairly long cool down like blink or more) after upgrade > this might need an overall attack damage nerf. BCs feel like a waste because raven is better than BC TvT, HT and tempest can make BCs more trouble than they're worth TvP
Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated.
DID HE REALLY WRITE THAT WHAT IS HE TRYING 2 SAY BY THAT IS HE INSULTING THE SC2 COMMUNITY Y DOES HE HAVE TO POST SOMETHING SO INSULTING 2 SO MANY PPL ON THE BLIZZARD AND TL FORUMS??????????????????????????????????????????????????
On January 03 2014 12:48 Redfish wrote: I'm going to blow my lid here. Excuse me in advance. This is a total rant, but I think I have a point.
I'm sorry, but I think this whole MsC debacle has been gone about in an incredibly ham-handed way that doesn't address what really is at issue here, and that issue is that Gateway units just plain suck.
Has anyone asked why Protoss players feel like they have to scramble for a MsC as quickly as possible in their builds? Why are split Protoss armies so ineffective and thus always deathballed, whereas small pods of Terran bio drops or Zerg hit squads can do game-altering damage? Why do the successes or failures of singular attack timings tend to dominate games with Protoss in them, and a lost army almost universally means a lost game, whereas in TvZ you have these epic back-and-forth slugfests? Again, it's because Gateway units suck.
We rush for an MsC because we have to spend 125/50/2 on a unit that does less DPS than a ZERGLING. Try defending an early attack with just those and see how it goes. The MsC is a crutch we have to lean on.
Our drops get cleaned up really insanely easily for what they cost and our other harass options suck past the point when proxy openers lose their effectiveness (Terrans, if you want a lesson in humility, try to drop 400 or 800 minerals worth of Zealots at a Planetary, ignoring the missile turrets like you would cannons. See what happens when you try that.). Our static defense sucks so much that Medivacs just drop top of it with no care, and we can't resposition cannons either - in fact, we're the only race that can't reposition buildings. So, we turtle with the MsC.
Gateway units are so weak in small numbers and so reliant on Force Field to both do damage (corral units for chargelots) or defend themselves, that they have no choice but to clump. All they really do late game is soak damage and provide support for the splash units, such as Colossi and Templars, to do the actual work. If Colossi get hung up or storms get dodged, we're dead, numbers be damned.
We tech switch so freakishly expensively and slowly (saw you go Spire? Another 300/300 of Stargates, plus a 300/200 Fleet Beacon, plus a 150/150 upgrade....oh wait you just made more roaches and hydras anyways, over 600/600 thrown away not counting however many phoenix I made, lol wp gg) that we can't keep up late and therefore go for earlier game timings or excessively greedy third builds.
I know Protoss are doing well overall right now, but I get so confused when I see players try some stupid rush that only worked in WoL and then whine about how it doesn't work any more now. Well no kidding it doesn't work now, the game has changed, TRY NEW THINGS. I'm sorry your old marine-SCV all-in that you abused up to Masters your first season doesn't work any more. I'm sorry you can't seven pool into expand any more, now knowing that you can't count on Forge FE 100% of the time. I can't four gate everyone to oblivion any more and you don't see me whining (though nerf PO any more and I guarantee you'll see PvP become a 4gate fest again). Stuff happens, try new things - the pros are and they are winning against all races.
I'd actually prefer they get rid of the MsC - just chuck the whole stupid thing. Then you'd see how crappy Gateway units really are, and then you just might see the Protoss of yore that didn't rely on temporary walls to defend themselves but had units that had the firepower in small groups that their cost warrants.
And as far as the whole roach burrow thing goes, I see it work really well when used properly (want to know how to utterly defecate on a sentry-heavy army?) but I almost never see it used in the first place. I don't think it's the developers job to cheapen a skill or unit overly heavily until it gets used like they want to see it, let people figure it out on their own. It's not the devs fault that people aren't using tools available to them.
You have put into words the annoyances/frustrations I've felt about playing Protoss for a long time, and much more precisely than I ever could.
I've ALWAYS felt like Protoss is this crutch based race. Manage to kick the crutch out from under us and we're completely dominated =/
edit: Having said this, I don't disagree with the proposed nerf to PO duration. I really don't see it turning PvP back into the 4gate era, we kind of left that well behind even back in WoL. I'm not really sure it will change up much of the dynamic in PvT, either. 40 seconds is still a lot of time to do damage to an army, or zone stuff out until another warp in round is ready, or you're chrono boosting out more colossus or something. It probably means that Protoss is going to have become even MORE reliant on tight, inflexible builds though.
On January 03 2014 12:43 Chvol wrote: I really despise the way blizzard talks about their changes. They're so vague. A change should be directed towards a very specific problem, not some generalizing claim like " oh, we want to give this style some more potency".
The PO change is likely targeted in the general direction of giving drop play a little more strength vs P, but in the process it makes SCV all ins stronger, and it also makes PvP even more 1 base oriented than it already is. I think these two things can, for the most part, be unanimously agreed to be negative side effects. Maybe blizzard is right, and we do need to buff drop plays, but do we have to do so in a way that also hinders much of what was good about PO?
I have no clue why people are stating that PO has anything to do with PVP. 4gate era has been gone ages ago.
Right before Heart of the Swarm, PVP in wings evolved into massive macro style with mass colossi/immortal battles. There has not been 1 base vs 1 base in a long time, PO has nothing to do with that. Map choices do, back in the day the maps were so broken and small, best builds were 1 base all ins, that can be said for zvz and tvt to so can't even argue that with PO nerf.
PO reduction in time wont even be that game changing, protoss players really use it as a crutch more then anything. PO still has it's insane range, time reduction means it gives a better window for players to apply more aggression in the early game vs protoss.
Protoss can do anything they want in any part of the game, differently vs Terran, Blink all ins, or they can sit back on PO and afk building a death ball with out worry of drops or any kind of early attacks.
Terran has very little options vs protoss in the early game. at least in wings terran had a nice time to be aggressive when their first 2 medivacs popped out.
I find it funny when people think that PO is like something that oneshots instantly everything which gets within its 13 range (or whatever it is) when it is literally a photon cannon planted on a nexus. 2 medivacs full of units can easily destroy a nexus with PO. And considering the HUGE buff that medivacs got with HotS it was just natural to give Protoss some help to defend from drops. Plus protoss had always been the weakest defensive race, considering that the other static defenses suck and forcefields are useless after some time. With this I'm not saying that the nerf is wrong, but if they completely removed the PO like many terran player would like, the vast majority of PvTs would see the protoss player simply dying to drops or scv pulls in the midgame.
Please jump to "conclusion" to see the changes I would like to see done. To understand them, read the whole thing.
This thread focuses on the "greater perspective" rather on mathemathical balance. This is the most valid way to approach balance at first hand. Therefore I have excluded most mathematical data in my arguments.
I have been gathering a lot of thoughts on the recent balance patches and I am very glad that blizzard actually in their balance test statements almost copy-paste sentences from some of the feedback from the users, but I can also be slightly afraid that the game, especially with the introduction of Heart of the Swarm, is giving the three races new and equal strategical opportunities that individual unit mathemathical adjustments no longer is the only thing needed for proper balance adjustments.
I would initially like to start pointing out my thoughts on why we currently experience problems in TVZ and TVP mech play and how PVZ scouting and individual unit counters causes random winning scenarioes due to limited scouting resources, windowed production mechanics and overexpensive tech investments.
I believe, despite the little I have read, that 99% of the "whine" or "critic" on the current game balance is either:
a) Directly pointed on protoss having overdefensive capabilities (such as the photon overcharge defends everything - meaning that technically any terran "allin" has much less efficiency that of protoss)
b) criticise At individual unit-to-unit counters or engagements (such as the immortal vs every armored unit)
c) Targets the overpowered exectuion of protoss allins in partiqularily PVZ
d) Predicts the future of how the oracle is essentially too good versus terran or in PVP. Some claim that it is not even necessary in the protoss arsenal - it is just there.
I think all of these statements above have some valid, but I would like to reject every single of them by looking at the greater perspective of things.
Lets first look at A:
Protoss defense (Overcharge) allows for too much greed and solid defence. Terrans and zergs has a hard time allining and harassing a defensive protoss player.
I believe blizzard agrees with me that variety of strategy across all matchups is essential to "fun" and pleasent viewership, including harass and intensity. However, since the matchups in fact rely on much different and heavy factors, we should only be allowed to see fun and intensity at different places in the game.. If you think about it, the protoss warpgate essentially means that statistics on individual protoss units must be lower in order to compensate for the games highest reinforcement value. This means protoss should be "safe" untill an X number of gateways (In my opinion it is commonly four-five, depending on strategy and matchup and base count). This is probably the reasoning for the implementation of the Photon Overcharge alongside the ability to use supportive and weak offensive units (sentries) to be recalled in case of an overrun. Especially in PVZ we all know that the very early expanding means zerg can get away with most economy if knowing that no aggression is coming, thus making moveouts with certain openings neccessary. The stalker is basically a supportive unit only which has different effects versus vikings and corrupters because these do heavy counters to colossus, which brings me to my other point. Blink allows the stalker to have micro-effiency in various amounts of scenarioes, but only if supported by a heavy gateway count. This brings me to my other point about protoss. Splash is necessary to defeating any zerg or terran army. This means at the highest level that rushing multiple gateways from 1 or 2 bases in PVZ or PVT must always only be allin since it slows splash teching too much. Splash units are also up to the 3 base count too expensive to be lost because of how well zerg and terran tier 1 and tier 2 units must trade. This is obviously fine, but that also means that terran and zerg units must have a slower rallying mechanism.
With the current mathemathical balance design applying to multiple concave engagements etc, etc, my point is that while it may be true that protoss is hardest to allin, one must also think it is necessary for protoss to be able to survive allins more because of the neccessity of teching and/or expanding to the midgame. With overcharge reduction from 60-40 two things may happen. Either protoss will start to lose more often to 3 rax double-techlab openings to the common metagame protoss "greed" to storm, or protoss will have to invest more into either robo or gateways making the korean-level games slightly more terran favored, perhaps even positive to the terran side.
Let us look at B:
There is too much individual unit countering in the current state of the game. (Immortals versus Mech.) This may also be affected by other things such as protoss not being able to get punished early
Through my points on a, I do not think it is a good idea to touch the protoss earlygame defence in order to improve mech play in PVT, thus I will not comment it here. Neither do I believe that the immortals statistics causes problems for terrans. I rather believe again that the greater race + map design causes the most problems for terran players and might favor protoss players. However, like everything else, this must be seen in a korean-level perspective and an eveything-else level perspective.
I think that terrans playing mech automatically commits to turtling, which they should. This is of course very varied on terran mech compositions, but typically a massive amount of either siegetanks or thors with at least 30% support in hellbats with a 14-15 minute moveout is necessary (preferebly without being seen coming) for a terran mech army to work without getting counter attacked or crushed.
One of the reasons this is the truth is because of the existence of the raven. The raven is basically, in my opinion, the strongest "amassing" unit in the game because of its well-round abilities and exponentiel power if supported by siegetanks, planetaries, turrets or vikings. Especially in PVT. However, the response to "teching to ravens" from the protoss side can be straight forward because of the lack of raw mech headsup power whilst doing the teching.
1. A terran mech army is only able to battle a protoss army if it is exponentially empowered by siegetank amounts. 2. While empowering the army with siege tanks, an close-to-equal amount of immortals counters this composition. 3. While terrans probably have no immediate response to this, they try to find positional and structural value in order to compensate for siege-tank destroying armies, such as mass amounts of hellbats, planetaries or turrets. 4. Establishing such a defensive position is hard because of the time and resource investments too it. This gives protoss a lot of free work space.
If this was not the case, terrans would have greater acces to ravens. Thus my point is not that while you only buff terran mech units, you also buff the acces to ravens.
The reasons koreans often choose bio is because the balance and unit design allows micro-efficiency while macroing to top and therefore win the games. Terran mech does not have these abilities. This makes me believe that protoss should not be changed almost at all since it would otherwise result in bio-play strength at korean level.
I am not saying an overcharge reduction from 60 to 40 will make bio play too strong, but neither does it really boost mech, but it might cause problems that I have mentioned earlier.
c) Protoss allins are too storng in PVZ (Some say in PVT too.)
This is quite simple, really. The reason protoss allins are "too strong" is because of a scouting-information window, depending on protoss gw/forge openings, which basically allows zerg to drone either ahead or behind by making units. Essentially the truth is that any protoss allin should be defended if known coming, making 100% scouting a no-go from blizzard development, but a non-scouted or "threat-sheet" with various allins or midgame transitions can make protoss allins strong, not to mention cannonrushes or gateway expandings.
As mentioned in A, early protoss gateways means that a timing window MUST allow for more strength in order to compensate for the lack of mid-game splash damage preperation.
Since warpgate exists, splash damage units or protoss allins cannot be nerfed and protoss must almost always have the ability to make these investments without dying.
For terrans, this means that protoss should be slightly favored unless it is at the korean level where individual bio-units can be maximumly efficiently traded.
d) The oracle is too strong in PVT and PVP, and now we see it way too often in PVZ too. The acceleration buff was a mistake.
When it comes to individual unit abilities, I actually agree that the oracle is very "gimmick" (meaning that it is simply an allin investment, either it does everything and wins or it does nothing and you are behind, partiqularily in PVP and PVT). Although I do not think it is overpowered despite it probably does a bit more than it does not when it is in fact opened, which is how it is supposed to be, but to me the oracle design could help the game so much more instead of being a harass unit and expensive "scout unit."
What Blizzard SHOULD consider implementing in the game
I only accounted for a fraction of the problems I see in the SC2 design, but that is only accountable because it is such a great game which such complexity that if there was not a thousand problems it would not be good. However - with everything above in mind I think it is time to look at specific changes I think would could help the game and solve or decrease the problme-magnitude of the listed criticisms of the current game/balance.
- Increasing roach burrow to 2.25 or even 2.3 is a GOOD idea for game fun and intensity, but since it can force too much armor-counter with later expansions in PVP and perhaps threaten terran teching with allins and make muta switches in both matchups much more hard to deal and/or scout. I can only able to account in detail from the protoss perspective, so whilst the change actually can be a "balanced" and viable strategy against protoss, I think it allows zerg to do a lot of "stephano-style" openings making the roaches equally powered as in wings of liberty, except the muta transition can no longer be stopped by ground counters even closely to that was in Wings of Liberty, so to me it is actually quite logical that the mass-roach style is no longer a part of the game.
In my opinion Blizzard should only boost the roach burrow while compensating for either scouting or anti-muta ground-style in PVZ. This can be done by the following changes:
- Decrease the energy cost of revelation from 75 to 50 (The ability that reveals a large area of units and buildings) AND make reveal units being produced from eggs.
This will obviously make the oracle stronger, especially in PVT where it can both be threatening and scout for medivac drops. That is why I think the pulsar beam damage should be reduced to 20 versus light so it can still two-shot probes and drones but not scvs. It will also have the same N amounts of shots needed to kill a zergling, baneling and hydralisk. The marine will instead need 3 shots to be killed, likely to make oracle a less prefered proxy-opener in PVT, but shall instead be greater to deal with medivacs and unit movement.
Making the oracle able to reveal units being produced from eggs essentially means it is a level 2 observer. Since zerg has typically 4 or 5 producing structures before winning a game, it is to me clear that something to reveal production is needed to make reactions as intelligent as possible. An oracle with 3 or 4 rounds of revelation from full energy can therefore only make up to 60-80% production revelation, and this energy should also be conserved for army-tracking for tempest and air unit targeting.
I can not emphasize how important it could be to PVZ that protoss can actually follow a muta army with revelation. Currently I think that it is very back and forth "techplay", but if zerg can enforce greater aggression with burrow roaches, protoss should therefore have an easier time seeing zerg units coming as typically 2 observers with immediate immortal production plus forcefields with energy for hallucination otherwise would be the only thing which to me makes the roach threat too strong for muta and swarmhost transitionings.
- Decrease the siege-tank deployment speed from approximately 4 real time seconds (including attack delay) to 2 real time seconds.
I think the real problem with mech both in PVT and PVZ is that it lacks both mobility and positional/micro capabilities while having strong damage potential. If you change the damage, you will almost never see direct engagements at even games. If you change the mobility easily, terran can take expansions and tech to ravens much more easily. As accounted for earlier I believe that mech units with ravens included can create scenarioes that litterally forms the strongest possible army in the game, but the "positional" and teching aspect of it is too slow and therefore gives too much workspace for zerg and protoss.
It COULD be an alternative to make an upgrade in the techlab that increases the siege tank deployment rate so it is a midgame and lategame thing to avoid making it too powerful in earlygames. I really think mech should be played postional with many factors included, and the ability to quickly redeploy siege tanks at many locations as we also saw in brood war might be the solution in my opinion.
These things could happen at korean level:
A favored immortal+archon+chargelot army approaches a terran attempt to take a 4th base. The terran is well aware of this and has 4 medivacs ready for harass, but decides to use them defensively.
- After the first attack from siegetanks, he quickly unloads them in 1.5 seconds instead of 3 to pick them up to avoid losing them, quickly redeploying them at high ground or a more defensive location.
Why do I suggest this?
Because I believe that mech needs the ability to be "postionally played" just like with bio. I also think this would increase the level of fun.
These are basically the only two suggestions I have for the game that I see should be considered.
Conclusion:
- Changing the oracle revelation from 75 to 50 can improve the game like this:
Early oracle revelation will make early-scouting with revelation a good idea if the opponent goes for early scout denial.
Gives protosses the ability to set up counter-attacks or do micro-intensive unit snipes based on exact intel. Here is a few examples:
PVT: Oracles will be able to detect "greedy" 3rd bases without harassing even if turrets, widowmines and/or marines are in place. PVP: Oracles will be able to detect phoenixes before entering a mineral line to do damage, making less concern for phoenix openings when doing oracles. This will require a delay in attack (25 energy for pulsar beam activation and 50 for revelation) otherwise there will be little energy to harass with. PVZ: Oracles will be able much more easily to keep track on muta armies, threats and production, ultimately decreasing the level of "tech wars" which zerg at the moment leads in my eyes. However, this would probably need a compensation (roach burrow speed.)
Note: For PVZ it might be dangerous to let the oracle be able to scout too much if toss goes for heavy air, but in current high-level games not much scouting with air armies is done because the void-ray rush is necessary or you have phoenixes.
- Decreasing oracle damage from 25 versus light to 20 versus light
Will keep the same amount of pulsar attacks versus zerglings, banelings and hydralisks, but will need to three-shot marines and scvs instead of two. However, this will require that the oracle can do 4 instances of revelation with max energy instead of currently 2.5.
PVT: Terrans does at the moment play a bit "oversafe" when trying to determine whether a scout-denying protoss opens DT, blink allin or oracles. Decreasing the threat of the oracle at earlygame but increasing it´s utility in mid and earlygame through revelation THEN harass or just revelation only makes it a more skill-requiring and reacting game. PVP: No big changes to the game. PVZ: No big changes to the game.
Note: The oracle has never been designed to be used in offensive battles because of the lack of unit control (i.e. Lalush micro video/thread)
- Decreasing siege tank deployment rate either by default or through a mid-game upgrade (from approximately 4 real-time seconds including attack delay to 2 real time seconds.)
EDIT: It has been suggested that the siegemode should take 4 seconds, but unsiege take 2. This will keep the ability to make escapes with siege tanks.
PVT: Allows mobile medivac+tank combinations to be used. Allows for quick and more spread deployments since you more often can escape with tanks. Makes the tanks more micro intensive. Increases engagement value by letting tanks siege earlier and be caught off guard later. TVT: Allows mobile medivac+tank combinations to be used. Allows for quick and more spread deployments since you more often can escape with tanks. Makes the tanks more micro intensive. Makes "offensive" tank playstyles more valuable and gives the pre-sieged terran player less advantage. TVZ: Allows mobile medivac+tank combinations to be used. Allows for quick and more spread deployments since you more often can escape with tanks. Makes the tanks more micro intensive. Causes banelings to be dealt with more easily since deploying becomes more rapid and thus buys at least 1 round of shots more time to micro bio with.
SideTopic
I do also sincerely believe that Blizzard should consider implementing the micro-mechanics that Lalush has so greatly shown in his video.
Sorry for typos. Will probably edit the thread later for mistakes!
Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated.
DID HE REALLY WRITE THAT WHAT IS HE TRYING 2 SAY BY THAT IS HE INSULTING THE SC2 COMMUNITY Y DOES HE HAVE TO POST SOMETHING SO INSULTING 2 SO MANY PPL ON THE BLIZZARD AND TL FORUMS??????????????????????????????????????????????????
You are insulted because you lack feedback, and good reasoning, He is quite right to ask for QQless feedback.
2. Swarm Host These units are a huge problem against mech, basically against a mech army these units take over the map (wich Zerg should be able to do against mech.), burrow and from there the Terran is never able to advance his possition at all. In fact they are so strong that they can actually do damage against Sieged Tanks, wich is too good and basically gives Zerg and options to lock down and destroy mech from afar without ever actually confronting the army.
Just remove Enduring Locust upgrade and make Locusts themselfs faster.
The big bad tank destroyer that will make hordes of staple siege tanks drop their pants (unsiege) and run for the hills. Nobody will ever make a significant number of tanks with a late-game in mind a long as there is no solution to the Brood Lord. At the moment you make vikings to combat the Brood Lord but the problem is that zerg then makes corruptors and infestors to beat your vikings and now we're transitioning out from mech into a air fight and so again you cant make a mech army for the late game in this state.
Seeker Missiles with Vikings and Yamatos already counter very well Broods-Corruptors.
Yes you can make an air army against zerg air, but this is not about making air viable is it?
1: Allow ghost emp / feedback / overseer building dump to dispel photon overcharge (then revert the timing nerf).
2: Make hellion transformation research much cheaper.
3: Allow PDD to block immortal shots.
All of these changes encourages more play actions through more ability usage and open up more build options (9 minute MMM ghost drop would be pro). The hellion transform costing 150/150 is ridiculous. Why is that so damned much? I get it taking a long time to research to prevent certain timings against zerg. But the cost is way out of line with its power.
I forgot balance patch threads were like this and people demand their their race be buffed in the way they want it specifically buffed. Glad nothing has changed.
hmm ok quick brainstorm on DTs, Archons and Immortals So DTs and Immortals have very unique passive abilities: permanent cloak and hardened shield. Blizzard briefly attempted a buff to DTs, making them faster and more exciting/microable. This was obviously a bit troublesome because they would be insanely hard to kill. Why not try a buff/nerf instead: make them faster, but remove permanent cloaking make it a spell with energy or with cool down. This way, they could be less feast or famine, because they would be more effective for a shorter period of time. They would be much more consistant because if the opponent is prepared they could still take damage due to speed buff, and DTs could be retained. If opponent is not prepared, then its not necessarily game over, because cloak will run out. I feel it could make more like cloakshees
Archons and Immortals seem to overlap too much. Both have a sort of "fragile state" once their shields are gone, so the counter to both is emp (redundant). Hardened shield is really interesting and there is nothing quite like it in the game. While I'll admit it is a really cool ability, why not change it so immortals still strong against armored units but not strong-untill-its-sheilds-are-done like the archon. Maybe just give it flat out more health and damage.
just brainstorming
TLDR: make DTs faster but make cloaking a spell with either cooldown or energy immortal and archon both have "good until the sheilds are gone syndrom" making them feel redundant. Remove hardened shield and buff HP
On January 03 2014 13:34 CannonsNCarriers wrote: My mech suggestions:
1: Allow ghost emp / feedback / overseer building dump to dispel photon overcharge (then revert the timing nerf).
2: Make hellion transformation research much cheaper.
3: Allow PDD to block immortal shots.
All of these changes encourages more play actions through more ability usage and open up more build options (9 minute MMM ghost drop would be pro). The hellion transform costing 150/150 is ridiculous. Why is that so damned much? I get it taking a long time to research to prevent certain timings against zerg. But the cost is way out of line with its power.
Interesting changes. I think they are all reasonable except #1. The biggest problem with PO is the early and early-mid game. Just push it back a bit with energy cost or duration changes. Blizzards change is better I feel.
Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated.
DID HE REALLY WRITE THAT WHAT IS HE TRYING 2 SAY BY THAT IS HE INSULTING THE SC2 COMMUNITY Y DOES HE HAVE TO POST SOMETHING SO INSULTING 2 SO MANY PPL ON THE BLIZZARD AND TL FORUMS??????????????????????????????????????????????????
You are insulted because you lack feedback, and good reasoning, He is quite right to ask for QQless feedback.
Nah it was sarcasm 'cause a lot of the ppl who add balance in the blizz forums typically have terrible ideas and just yell. I can imagine the people who get annoyed at something like that are probably the ones who are doing that kind of posting. I was being IRONICAL.
Oh hey i got a warning, lol I should put /sarcasm spoiler or something.
Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated.
DID HE REALLY WRITE THAT WHAT IS HE TRYING 2 SAY BY THAT IS HE INSULTING THE SC2 COMMUNITY Y DOES HE HAVE TO POST SOMETHING SO INSULTING 2 SO MANY PPL ON THE BLIZZARD AND TL FORUMS??????????????????????????????????????????????????
You are insulted because you lack feedback, and good reasoning, He is quite right to ask for QQless feedback.
Nah it was sarcasm 'cause a lot of the ppl who add balance in the blizz forums typically have terrible ideas and just yell. I can imagine the people who get annoyed at something like that are probably the ones who are doing that kind of posting. I was being IRONICAL.
Oh hey i got a warning, lol I should put /sarcasm spoiler or something.
It was the all caps and the lack of a sarcasm spoiler fo sur.
On January 03 2014 13:06 ImperialFist wrote: Meanwhile protoss can all-in left and right like Gods and still have a lategame that is so strong and extremely easy for all non-progamers to handle. Like a random master PvT, equal skill massively favors the protoss, i just dislike how some people have no shame.
Protoss has many gimmicks available, but they're still gimmicks. Lo and behold the almighty protoss all ins, which get easily crushed if scouted and the terran knows how to fend them off.
Scv trains are disgusting against colossi in the mid game. And it's not our fault most terrans below master league can't properly micro their ghosts. Most of these terrans get stuck in the drop phase of the game and don't even make ghosts. You don't see terrans complaining about colossi much because vikings pretty much "self-micro", but then you see players whine like crazy when they get raped by templars... without a single ghost on the field.
It's also funny to see players talk about protoss late game being strong. Considering how strong 3-3 bio is and how bad gateway units are, it's no wonder it all comes down to aoe. Try being careless with colossi, high templar, and observers, and see how badly protoss late game gets raped. You can't just a-move into the terran army and storm everything if the terran knows what he's doing.
This thread talks more about the radical changes to make on the Protoss, and I think people should check it out, if they feel the Protoss design is faulty.
The balance changes seem nice, but I still think that the Protoss is still a race with a lot of strong all-ins (I personally get sick and tired of seeing a lot of NA Protoss players all-ining against Zergs) and heavily dependent on AOE. I really hope Blizzard would someday fix that because it does ruin the laddering experience for some Zerg players.
As for Terran, it's nice to see more about mech because I think Terran bio unless it is in the hands of Maru is not very good against the recent Protoss composition. So, it's nice to see a change up and force up all kinds of transitions from both sides.
On January 03 2014 13:20 Theobeo wrote: - Changing the oracle revelation from 75 to 50 can improve the game like this:
Early oracle revelation will make early-scouting with revelation a good idea if the opponent goes for early scout denial.
Gives protosses the ability to set up counter-attacks or do micro-intensive unit snipes based on exact intel. Here is a few examples:
PVT: Oracles will be able to detect "greedy" 3rd bases without harassing even if turrets, widowmines and/or marines are in place. PVP: Oracles will be able to detect phoenixes before entering a mineral line to do damage, making less concern for phoenix openings when doing oracles. This will require a delay in attack (25 energy for pulsar beam activation and 50 for revelation) otherwise there will be little energy to harass with. PVZ: Oracles will be able much more easily to keep track on muta armies, threats and production, ultimately decreasing the level of "tech wars" which zerg at the moment leads in my eyes. However, this would probably need a compensation (roach burrow speed.)
Note: For PVZ it might be dangerous to let the oracle be able to scout too much if toss goes for heavy air, but in current high-level games not much scouting with air armies is done because the void-ray rush is necessary or you have phoenixes.
- Decreasing oracle damage from 25 versus light to 20 versus light
Will keep the same amount of pulsar attacks versus zerglings, banelings and hydralisks, but will need to three-shot marines and scvs instead of two. However, this will require that the oracle can do 4 instances of revelation with max energy instead of currently 2.5.
PVT: Terrans does at the moment play a bit "oversafe" when trying to determine whether a scout-denying protoss opens DT, blink allin or oracles. Decreasing the threat of the oracle at earlygame but increasing it´s utility in mid and earlygame through revelation THEN harass or just revelation only makes it a more skill-requiring and reacting game. PVP: No big changes to the game. PVZ: No big changes to the game.
Note: The oracle has never been designed to be used in offensive battles because of the lack of unit control (i.e. Lalush micro video/thread)
- Decreasing siege tank deployment rate either by default or through a mid-game upgrade (from approximately 4 real-time seconds including attack delay to 2 real time seconds.)
PVT: Allows mobile medivac+tank combinations to be used. Allows for quick and more spread deployments since you more often can escape with tanks. Makes the tanks more micro intensive. Increases engagement value by letting tanks siege earlier and be caught off guard later. TVT: Allows mobile medivac+tank combinations to be used. Allows for quick and more spread deployments since you more often can escape with tanks. Makes the tanks more micro intensive. Makes "offensive" tank playstyles more valuable and gives the pre-sieged terran player less advantage. TVZ: Allows mobile medivac+tank combinations to be used. Allows for quick and more spread deployments since you more often can escape with tanks. Makes the tanks more micro intensive. Causes banelings to be dealt with more easily since deploying becomes more rapid and thus buys at least 1 round of shots more time to micro bio with.
While I agree, and am thoroughly impressed, with your oracle suggestions upon looking through your explanations (though I was resistant at first by the raw descriptions), I don't agree that allowing the tank to siege up quicker would be a wise decision for that unit. However, on the unsiege front, I think I actually agree with you. Changes that allow easier retreat are usually a good idea, as that helps players conserve their armies easier if they take part of a suboptimal engagement - saves them for a future engagements. And unlike loveless remarriages, more engagements is always a good thing for a Starcraft game!
I would have the unsiege time buff tied in with the Transformation Servos upgrade, and possibly have the cost of that upgrade lowered to 100/100 again. Similarly, I'd have Hellbats be able to transform into Hellions time be lowered to 2s, but leave the reverse at 4s. This would make them a greater threat to chase down workers if a Medivac is no longer available, or just allows them to retreat more easily. Perhaps I'd also have Viking transformation time be similarly decreased, in the hope that players would make greater use of landed Vikings. That upgrade is terribly unused, and there are units that could make good use of being included in it.
As far as other changes that I think could greatly improve the game, I'd lower the cost of Ravens significantly, at a dear cost to their massing potential. For cost, I'd drop their gas cost down to 125, but I'd make the footprint of their auto-turrets 3x3, but leave the collision radius the same for pathing reasons. This makes laying down mass auto-turrets even less useful in the lategame, as it greatly reduces their DPS density. Furthermore, and most importantly, I'd make overlapping PDDs shoot each other's lasers! This will emphasize proper positioning of PDDs, and make them significantly less spammable versus Hydras, Corruptors, Vikings, and Stalkers that have been produced out of necessity to counter mass Raven flocks.
I wonder, sometimes, in threads like these, with people posting massive essays on what the issues are, with people posting idea after idea on what should be done, with hundreds of individual voices at no point cohesing into a single scream.
I wonder if everyone thinks what they're writing will be read.
On January 03 2014 14:24 Kon-Tiki wrote: I don't even know why I read threads like this one anymore. Its got so much hate and anger in it, on both sides of the debate
On January 03 2014 13:56 Dynamitekid wrote: How about a buff to adrenal gland to prevent Terran Bio from raping everything.
While I agree with a buff to adrenal glands, it would primarily come into effect against immobile units, such as Siege Tanks and Thors. Bio is almost always splitting or retreating against 'lings, so usually only a shot or two gets off against a good bio player before repositioning occurs. It would make cleaning up Marauder drops much easier though, which is nice.
Against Protoss, an improvement to adrenal glands might actually be imba, assuming no change to protoss is made. Zerglings would utterly ravage Stalker, Immortal, Sentry armies, even more so than they do already. They would also catch Archons out in the open and destroy them much faster. If the attack period were buffed from -18% to -25% (like it was in BW), either guardian shield would pretty much be required to be buffed, or Stalker shots would require a buff by at least 2 flat damage in order to keep splashless protoss armies from being totally destroyed by mass lings.
Although, to be perfectly honest, I'd love to see that happen.
On January 03 2014 14:24 Kon-Tiki wrote: I don't even know why I read threads like this one anymore. Its got so much hate and anger in it, on both sides of the debate
Why they don't reverse the wrong direction they did in previous patch (Oracle buff and hellbat nerf)? These 2 elements are the problem I think. Instead of looking for something else, reverse them.
On January 03 2014 13:51 Aiursc wrote: If the photon overcharge change go through I don't think I'll ever win against Hitman again.
Wait? Its a nerf, you know that? Or are you using the sarcasm?
He's talking about PvP. Nerfing photon overcharge favors aggressive players like Hitman. Photon overcharge basically just delays the fight for 60 seconds so the defensive player has time to get out some key units. Making it delay only 40 seconds is gonna ruin some builds.
2. Swarm Host These units are a huge problem against mech, basically against a mech army these units take over the map (wich Zerg should be able to do against mech.), burrow and from there the Terran is never able to advance his possition at all. In fact they are so strong that they can actually do damage against Sieged Tanks, wich is too good and basically gives Zerg and options to lock down and destroy mech from afar without ever actually confronting the army.
Just remove Enduring Locust upgrade and make Locusts themselfs faster.
The big bad tank destroyer that will make hordes of staple siege tanks drop their pants (unsiege) and run for the hills. Nobody will ever make a significant number of tanks with a late-game in mind a long as there is no solution to the Brood Lord. At the moment you make vikings to combat the Brood Lord but the problem is that zerg then makes corruptors and infestors to beat your vikings and now we're transitioning out from mech into a air fight and so again you cant make a mech army for the late game in this state.
Seeker Missiles with Vikings and Yamatos already counter very well Broods-Corruptors.
Dude have you not seen chain fungal from zerg ? it happens all the time.
On January 03 2014 14:30 mostwanted wrote: Why they don't reverse the wrong direction they did in previous patch (Oracle buff and hellbat nerf)? These 2 elements are the problem I think. Instead of looking for something else, reverse them.
hellbat nerf was needed .. so that we get to see the glorious tvt today .. few players liked the hellbatfest
On January 03 2014 07:51 Cheren wrote: Easier EMP access should equal moving it to the raven and giving the ghost a new spell. Probably won't see that till LotV though.
This was ages ago for this thread but I don't care, haha. I think it'd be really cool to put EMP on ravens and give ghosts something like lockdown from Starcraft. This would create more opportunities for raven usage - which is good for mech in general - while preserving the ghost-vs-templar dance vs protoss because lockdown would be extremely valuable.
On January 03 2014 07:51 Cheren wrote: Easier EMP access should equal moving it to the raven and giving the ghost a new spell. Probably won't see that till LotV though.
This was ages ago for this thread but I don't care, haha. I think it'd be really cool to put EMP on ravens and give ghosts something like lockdown from Starcraft. This would create more opportunities for raven usage - which is good for mech in general - while preserving the ghost-vs-templar dance vs protoss because lockdown would be extremely valuable.
you cant use both .. since both are gas heavy .. if both are cheap then that would be the case .. if you use both you wont have enough for vikings
Even 30sec would be more than enough for the Photon Overcharge imo.
And trying to make mech viable again Blizzard... I don't know but don't. Mech vs anything other than T bio is shit. Giving the Raven EMP could be potentially useful tho.
On January 03 2014 14:36 xxjcdentonxx wrote: what does built-in EMP mean? isn't EMP a ghost ability? do they want to give that ability to one of the mech units?
I can see it now.
Next patch: Siege tanks shoot Roaches that EMP when they hit the ground.
On January 03 2014 07:51 Cheren wrote: Easier EMP access should equal moving it to the raven and giving the ghost a new spell. Probably won't see that till LotV though.
This was ages ago for this thread but I don't care, haha. I think it'd be really cool to put EMP on ravens and give ghosts something like lockdown from Starcraft. This would create more opportunities for raven usage - which is good for mech in general - while preserving the ghost-vs-templar dance vs protoss because lockdown would be extremely valuable.
you cant use both .. since both are gas heavy .. if both are cheap then that would be the case .. if you use both you wont have enough for vikings
That's true in many games, yeah - though there are plenty of games where there's enough time and resources that a person could get a mix of the two in small numbers, especially if the cost of ghost upgrades were reduced. Having EMP on Ravens and Lockdown on Ghosts could also lead to interesting strategic decisions between the two.
On January 03 2014 14:41 Gamlet wrote: If you nerf overcharge you need nerf some medevac speed and hydralisk move after infestation pit
You mean gasp instead of being able to be greedy and hold anything due to overcharge you may have to delay a 3rd by 20 seconds? Oh no probably not the overcharge still lasts a good amount of time. If it does make that big of a difference stop being so greedy.
The one mech change that has the least collateral dmg in the other matchups is going to be the EMP buff, which imo is a good idea. photon overcharge nerf to 40 sec is still oodles of time to muster a defense as protoss. I don't think they're serious about the speed burrow roaches. They are just trying to buff it so people use it and find out how amazing it is, even without the speed. How many terrans put a turret at the front of their base in TvZ... like none. Why zergs don't already do this to harass is beyond me.
merge two near by tanks for emp tank, that fires a emp blast that has a cast time of 5 seconds and needs to be casted each time while in seige mode to use
On January 03 2014 15:15 Kyrao wrote: The one mech change that has the least collateral dmg in the other matchups is going to be the EMP buff, which imo is a good idea. photon overcharge nerf to 40 sec is still oodles of time to muster a defense as protoss. I don't think they're serious about the speed burrow roaches. They are just trying to buff it so people use it and find out how amazing it is, even without the speed. How many terrans put a turret at the front of their base in TvZ... like none. Why zergs don't already do this to harass is beyond me.
my two cents anyway.
Because it's a terrible waste of a investment to grab roach speed and delay everything and resources on something that a simple scan shuts down with ease. You can do some gimmicky stuff with it vs terran but nothing very good.
Most useful way it's being used by top Koreans is just vs sentry heavy protoss going for gateway all ins with a lot of FF ect.
Lmao people act like Photon Overcharge is like this DOOM ability that stops everything? 60 secs honestly isn't that long, and with boosted medivacs reinforcements can arrive so fast that waiting that 60 secs shouldn't really stop anyone from pressuring. Not to mention if it's really "early pressure" there shouldn't be that much energy on the MSC anyways, so 1 PO and then you lift and boost somewhere else to attack like 90% of people do already. Like honestly everyone is so afraid of PO, and it's not a save all kind of thing. I'd rather see a site-range reduction, or the range of the PO decreased slightly then the duration, even the Time Warp duration or a slight nerf to the slow-speed would help i'm sure, or even more energy cost for Time Warp or Recall even. Just because for that 60 secs Terran can't fly all over your base, or rush in with 10 stimmed marauders and snipe the Nexus instantly doesn't mean something is OP or needs to be nerfed. Terran crying about this is so damn old it's not even funny, and now we find out your all whining to blizzard about this. Anytime something forces people to rethink what they are doing they instantly give up without giving any extra thought about trying to solve the issue. So annoying. The MSC can't be in 3 places at once, or 2 for that matter so "dropping" or shit like that isn't even a problem and is still super powerful. EMP is strong but is highly under-used by the majority of Terrans, there's like a whole tech tree that has been pre-determined as useless that 90% of the Terran's don't even use or factor into their game-plan. Before you go crying about something being OP, why not try to figure shit out or improve your own gameplay? The duration isn't the problem blizzard, try something else, because PvP is at such a good place right now with it actually reaching the 2-3 base stages fairly often that I really would hate to see all that progress go to shit because of some shitty Terran's whining about PO that has been in the damn game for almost a year now, and it's all of a sudden this huge problem?? gtfo here with that shit.
And as for the mech changes, they really need to do something about the mobility factor of mech, not the damage or anything like that. Tanks are useless in TvZ because Mutas just swoop in and take them out because their so damn slow sieging and un-sieging, and practically every other mech unit is super super slow and immobile. Even the air mech is damn slow compared to other races, besides the medivac which is the only mobile air unit pretty much. In BW this problem was solved by the Goliath, which was a mobile, mech, anti-air unit that solved lots of terran's problems with mech vs zerg. I feel there needs to be some kind of unit like this to make it work in SC2. Since they are adding speed to practically any unit that isn't used, try adding some speed to the Terran mech units, or find some balance to where you can somehow be mobile.
On January 03 2014 16:05 ArTiFaKs wrote: Lmao people act like Photon Overcharge is like this DOOM ability that stops everything? 60 secs honestly isn't that long, and with boosted medivacs reinforcements can arrive so fast that waiting that 60 secs shouldn't really stop anyone from pressuring. Not to mention if it's really "early pressure" there shouldn't be that much energy on the MSC anyways, so 1 PO and then you lift and boost somewhere else to attack like 90% of people do already. Like honestly everyone is so afraid of PO, and it's not a save all kind of thing. I'd rather see a site-range reduction, or the range of the PO decreased slightly then the duration, even the Time Warp duration or a slight nerf to the slow-speed would help i'm sure, or even more energy cost for Time Warp or Recall even. Just because for that 60 secs Terran can't fly all over your base, or rush in with 10 stimmed marauders and snipe the Nexus instantly doesn't mean something is OP or needs to be nerfed. Terran crying about this is so damn old it's not even funny, and now we find out your all whining to blizzard about this. Anytime something forces people to rethink what they are doing they instantly give up without giving any extra thought about trying to solve the issue. So annoying. The MSC can't be in 3 places at once, or 2 for that matter so "dropping" or shit like that isn't even a problem and is still super powerful. EMP is strong but is highly under-used by the majority of Terrans, there's like a whole tech tree that has been pre-determined as useless that 90% of the Terran's don't even use or factor into their game-plan. Before you go crying about something being OP, why not try to figure shit out or improve your own gameplay? The duration isn't the problem blizzard, try something else, because PvP is at such a good place right now with it actually reaching the 2-3 base stages fairly often that I really would hate to see all that progress go to shit because of some shitty Terran's whining about PO that has been in the damn game for almost a year now, and it's all of a sudden this huge problem?? gtfo here with that shit.
first ppl have been bitching about PO for a while just gone unheard with hellbats and widow mines, and yes 60s is pretty long its what 2 warpins with chrono i think giving you time to have enough to defend, also with the early pressure stuff i saw i believe sos defend a 2 rax from bomber with a 1 gate expo and had the PO in time on daybreak, so what pressure should we do plz tell me, next on most maps you can hit 2 PO main and nat and have you army at your third ready and use warpins to depend where ever. so im sorry it needs to be looked at i understand that pvp is crazy but it needs to be looked at
On January 03 2014 16:05 ArTiFaKs wrote: Lmao people act like Photon Overcharge is like this DOOM ability that stops everything? 60 secs honestly isn't that long, and with boosted medivacs reinforcements can arrive so fast that waiting that 60 secs shouldn't really stop anyone from pressuring. Not to mention if it's really "early pressure" there shouldn't be that much energy on the MSC anyways, so 1 PO and then you lift and boost somewhere else to attack like 90% of people do already. Like honestly everyone is so afraid of PO, and it's not a save all kind of thing. I'd rather see a site-range reduction, or the range of the PO decreased slightly then the duration, even the Time Warp duration or a slight nerf to the slow-speed would help i'm sure, or even more energy cost for Time Warp or Recall even. Just because for that 60 secs Terran can't fly all over your base, or rush in with 10 stimmed marauders and snipe the Nexus instantly doesn't mean something is OP or needs to be nerfed. Terran crying about this is so damn old it's not even funny, and now we find out your all whining to blizzard about this. Anytime something forces people to rethink what they are doing they instantly give up without giving any extra thought about trying to solve the issue. So annoying. The MSC can't be in 3 places at once, or 2 for that matter so "dropping" or shit like that isn't even a problem and is still super powerful. EMP is strong but is highly under-used by the majority of Terrans, there's like a whole tech tree that has been pre-determined as useless that 90% of the Terran's don't even use or factor into their game-plan. Before you go crying about something being OP, why not try to figure shit out or improve your own gameplay? The duration isn't the problem blizzard, try something else, because PvP is at such a good place right now with it actually reaching the 2-3 base stages fairly often that I really would hate to see all that progress go to shit because of some shitty Terran's whining about PO that has been in the damn game for almost a year now, and it's all of a sudden this huge problem?? gtfo here with that shit.
Well, nothing is a huge problem in isolation. Infestors weren't a problem until buffed Queen's gave zergs 6 Queen openings. PO wasn't a huge issue at the start of HoTS because protoss still had to make defensive units to stop hellbat drops (PO wasn't really effective vs hellbats). And even after hellbats were nerfed, it was still ok although protoss learnt they could be rarely greedy.
But then with the oracle change and the maps getting blink flavor, it became a big issue because terrans had to play defensive in the early game. And when they got passed that and try to take back control in the mid game, PO just stopped them cold in their tracks and allowed protoss teched up too quickly to AoE.
So you tell terrans to figure shit and and improve their play. How about you figure shit out without having to rely on a 60 second PO and improve YOUR play. Instead of crying about the nerf.
If they buff EMP, making it easier to get, I believe that people will stick with bio, thats why I like the idea of EMP shells for tanks (research needed to toy with the timings for balance purposes) as manual casting skill.
I dont see how they can buff air units and how it will help T mech. Maybe making vikings more armored in landed mode to be used as meat shields in front of a mech army as well as giving air support against void/tempest? Raven improvements with longer radius for HSM or PDD? Will we see BC again?
I'd like to see a bonus upgrade vs shield for tanks. That's the only buff mech needs. And maybe a small damage buff because with vipers, tanks are way less strong than before.
And if they do this, I hope they nerf the air transition which is too strong vs zerg. Reverse the armor upgrade fusion for air+mech.
On January 03 2014 17:02 Insoleet wrote: I'd like to see a bonus upgrade vs shield for tanks. That's the only buff mech needs. And maybe a small damage buff because with vipers, tanks are way less strong than before.
And if they do this, I hope they nerf the air transition which is too strong vs zerg. Reverse the armor upgrade fusion for air+mech.
If you want to buff tanks, then buff swarm hosts too
On Kr ladder roach burrow is already used in ZvZ and ZvP (mid games, or sentry-heavy all-ins) I still don't get why they buffed it. The more buffs to random "unused" things, the better i guess!
Photon Overcharge - a decent player will bait out an overcharge before they want to attack making it unavailable for their attack anyway.
Faster burrow roaches - from a ZvP perspective, very few go early burrow move not because it is weak in general, but because the current meta is that protoss opens stargate, therefore making roaches a horrible choice for zerg to start with. Plus so many zerg are set in their ways that unless you make burrow move overpowered, they will not use it anyway. They are fast enough as it is!
Mech Changes: Mech is a lot harder to play then bio, most terrans rarely at best, try mech once, it does not work (as does any build you never play) and go back to bio, mech itself is strong if played well, but the worst of this is the EMP suggestion... Mech plus ghosts is unbeatable in TvP, our counters vs mech rely on shields/energy and therefore giving an easy path to EMP will break this matchup! That is only if somehow you encorporate the EMP buff into mech only (BUY NOW - purchase 6 siege tanks today and get a free EMP!). Strengthening ghosts in general with EMP will keep terrans going bio and now close off templar openings from protoss.
Whether you like these proposed changes or not, I'd like to point out the obvious and say it's great how they nearly always ask the community for our opinion before changes get implemented.
Wonder how many people who've posted on the proposed changes are theory-crafting rather than play the map half a dozen times first.
1. Remove the alert. 2. Reduce the cost to build structure. 3. Reduce the cost to build Nydus (Worm). 4. Reduce build time to build Nydus (Worm). 5. Make it so multiple worms can be built at a time from one Nydus. 6. Increase the rate that units pop out of the Worm.
I'd prefer if the P early offensive/allin arsenal was somehow reduced instead of nerfing the overcharge. That way the greed of P would be limited just a bit more as well, as the opponent wouldn't need to play too cautiously in case of greed. Maybe a revert of the needless oracle buff plus move of recall ability to a separate upgrade or something similar. I'm afraid the way as it is suggested right now will only make PvP really coinflippy again.
Classic blizzard. Lets fix something that is obviously focking wrong from the beginning. 60 second immunity for early game. Lets make it 40 after forever and pretend its gonna fix something. More useless crap for zerg. Better buff the speed of larva too so its harder to hit. Cant wait for next huge change that will change zerg forever. Cant comment on terran changes because after months of work they arent even able to list a specific idea. Yeah guys we are working so hard. I am so sad because this game is unplayable. Players leave/switch. And blizzard just pisses on everyone (esp terrans) with PO change, faster roaches and pretends its rain. I wish I could have fun with game again, terrans back on the ladder etc.
On January 03 2014 17:24 fruity. wrote: Whether you like these proposed changes or not, I'd like to point out the obvious and say it's great how they nearly always ask the community for our opinion before changes get implemented.
Wonder how many people who've posted on the proposed changes are theory-crafting rather than play the map half a dozen times first.
Didn't stop the oracle speed/acceleration buff from going through which was clearly unwaranted.
I had hoped they would look at time warp, MsC vision range, oracle speed. Just removing 20 sec from PO doesnt do much imo. And of all the things that needs looking at, they pick roach burrow speed... again. Amazing.
They should revamp this test map system. I always get the feeling no one is playing them, and Blizzard just proceeds to implement untested changes.
It would be a huge improvement to just inject a test map like this in the ladder pool, with the changes listed when the map is loaded. Players can simply check the test map in the Map Preferences. If that's too much of a leap, it can be put in the Unranked pool, or just make a separate Play Test Map button which queues against other people of your skill. That would yield so much more relevant data for Blizzard.
I wished they would keep Photon Overcharge but just remove the Oracle. I think almost anybody would love that change, other than a couple Protosses who rely on their proxy Oracles every game.
For a grand total of 350/350! And that's with ZERO roaches.
If you consider the fact that every player is roaming with detection by mid game, the spending that crucial 150/150 on Tunneling Claws really isn't worth it when there's other important mid game upgrades for Zerg like Carapace upgrades or Hydralisk range upgrades.
If they want to make Tunneling Claw roaches more viable, then they need to review reducing the resource cost of one of these three abilities.
Why can't we have a simple patch that just gives terran and/or zerg better scouting abilities? Help us to deal with all the toss all-ins every single game.
Also: mech could use a better change than an emp buff. It needs a design tweak too.
I just noticed alot of protoss players are afraid of what will happen in PvP now. Its ironic that protoss needs the MsC because protoss all ins are so strong This is why its so suprising that alot of protoss act like they dont understand the concerns of terrans and zergs. We dont even have the MsC to help us out defensively :o
Mech TVP: Tanks do +10 damage vs shields with less shield damage father away. EMP moved to raven Ghost gets a rework of the Snipe spell to deal with templar tech just as good as it did before. Viking ground mode attack split in two with +40 HP when in ground mode.
Other changes I would like to see.
4 base cap for mining (currently we are at 3 base)
Protoss Warp Prism gets a super late game upgrade at Fleet beacon with recall ability (recall units to Warp Prism). In TVP this gives us Rave EMP vs Warp Prism micro. Reduced time for Templar archives. Nerf build time of Oracle
Zerg Lurker mode for Swarmhost. We can give changing modes a big Cooldown (30sec) and with little nerf to locust range from 25 to 18 off creep. adjust infestation pit so Lurker host can come out in time for the 10 min all ins. Hydras light tag remove and become just bio. Buff Nydus Worm unload speed and HP to 850 . and increase build time to 40 seconds form 15.
Siege Tank Siege mode damage changed from 50 to 35 (+15 armored). Upgrade damage changed from +5 to +3 (+2 armored).
Or split the tank attacks in two hits to double the effect against the hardened shield. Or add a passive ability that do the same, like : Scattering shots : Cause the Sieged Tank to ignore the capabilities of shields.
The real reason why more and more terrans going mech is not because mech is more fun or excited to watch (the opposite is the truth), it is because bio doesn't work for the 'foreigners' terrans.
so imo, blizzard actually trying to buff lower skill terrans, w/o really buffing top level terrans.
The reason why you dont see many roach burrow games is that you need frikkin' 3 upgrades to do it. Burrow, Tunneling Claws and move speed upgrade. Blizzard if you want to do something you shoud combine tuinneling claws and move speed. or Let roaches move while burrowed just from Burrow upgrade(like Infestor that you never see used anyway!) and keep the speed upgrade.
For a grand total of 350/350! And that's with ZERO roaches.
If you consider the fact that every player is roaming with detection by mid game, the spending that crucial 150/150 on Tunneling Claws really isn't worth it when there's other important mid game upgrades for Zerg like Carapace upgrades or Hydralisk range upgrades.
If they want to make Tunneling Claw roaches more viable, then they need to review reducing the resource cost of one of these three abilities.
That is not very correct in my opinion. Movement speed is already a staple in Roach usage, so the additional costs to use burrow roaches is the cost for Burrow and Tunneling Claws
We believe we can push mech usage more as well. Some options we’re looking at here are: higher armored damage for siege tanks, easier access to EMP when going mech (such as building the energy upgrade into the unit), buffing mech air, and so on. However, this is the area in which we’re the least certain. Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated.
I made a TL forum post on why the game currently sucks and it was a response to SKMC (It got locked though for understandable reasons.)
I will just give a short reiteration of my points on Terran Mech and some original ones not in that thread:
Siege Tanks are too expensive compared to their Brood War counterparts.
Siege Tanks do too little damage for their cost and (lack of) mobility.
Siege Tanks are hard-countered by units they were supposed to counter in the first place (Blink Stalkers can trade efficiently with tanks if blinked on top of a tank line.)
Thors are hard-countered by units they were designed to counter in the first place (Mutalisks
Thors and Widow Mines suck vs Air. The Goliath (or pre-beta Warhound) needs to be brought back.
Siege Tanks were nerfed in the beta back when map sizes were really small.
Removing overkill doesn't compensate for much shittier damage output.
Widow Mines have phased out the Siege Tank because it is more efficient at trading with Zerglings and Banelings.
Do I agree with these changes? Yes. I sincerely hope we see more Terran mech buffs in the future especially buffing Tank damage vs Armored. I think 60 vs Armored or 70 vs Armored would be a reasonable tradeoff. Maybe then I may consider finally playing Terran again.
I will never understand why they got rid of that unit..it was so cool. It reminded me a lot of a goliath.
On January 03 2014 18:10 CutTheEnemy wrote: Why can't we have a simple patch that just gives terran and/or zerg better scouting abilities? Help us to deal with all the toss all-ins every single game.
Or make prottos cheese harder to excute, like, proxy high tech building (not - gateway, forge, cyber, cannon), will need support of 2 pylons, at first it sound abit dumb, but think bout it. it'll be harder to initialize & execute an early proxy tech w/o committing to it more, while scouting his main base will have a huge obvious alarm bell.
This coming from a terran who just got tired of playing 'Find the proxied tech game' every game, instead of actually playing sc2.
Siege Tank Siege mode damage changed from 50 to 35 (+15 armored). Upgrade damage changed from +5 to +3 (+2 armored).
Or split the tank attacks in two hits to double the effect against the hardened shield. Or add a passive ability that do the same, like : Scattering shots : Cause the Sieged Tank to ignore the capabilities of shields.
or, you know, use EMP? tanks and hellbats roflstomp immortals that have lost their shields. BFHB roflstomp pretty much anything and don't give a shit about storm, collosus or Photon Overcharge.
On January 03 2014 18:13 WarpTV wrote: Protoss Warp Prism gets a super late game upgrade at Fleet beacon with recall ability (recall units to Warp Prism)
Are you fucking crazy? Then all they would have to do would be to sneak one super fast wp around the edge of the map and poof, all Terran's production is gone. Then before Terran's army gets back to the base, use another wp on the other side of the map to get the army back out..gm would go from 50% Toss to 90% overnight
Offcourse Terrans won't be able to do any damage to an equal skilled protoss with their good ol 2\3\4medivacks because the basic of any PvT build is to defend that, but protosses will change their buids with a greater accent on gates.. so wellcome back to X gate followups instead of oracle\tech way of play. Is this bad? i don't know, i really never loved oracles, so maybe yes for my taste, overall i expect a more allinish metagame like back in wol, or maybe just more aggressive.
So to change we need to use our past builds, our past metagame, instead of new ideas and a real shake for the game... this is what i dislike of this patch, this and the near to nothing content. And what is that mech question? A joke?
I agree nerfing photon overcharge is a good idea but I think nerfing the duration of the Photon overcharge isn't the way to go. I would rather see a 50 energy cost on the Nexus as well as the 100 energy cost on the Mothership Core rather than changing the duration.
At least they admit there is a problem with Protoss nowadays. I do believe PvZ is fine, but PvT early game feels so unfair especially due to the oracle. I don't think they came up with the right solutions at all though...
Photon overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 40
We believe the the Mothership Core is very well-rounded unit. We like the early aggressive options the Mothership Core provides, such as being able to recall back at the right moments, but we wonder whether the defensive nature of the Mothership Core can be toned down a bit. We’d like to see more options for Terran and Zerg to attack, skirmish, or harass a Protoss player who plays defensively.
Translation : we're too stubborn to revert oracle change.
My opinion : will only affect PvP. 40 sec is still more than enough for a reasonable P to buy time against hellion harass or a stim timing.
What I'd do : an overcharged Nexus can't produce anything during the time the photon cannon is active. So that an early game overcharge hurts the economy and must not be taken lightly.
[*] Roach burrow move speed to 2.25
Of the various changes we made in the last balance patch, this one seems to be the one that didn’t do much. We’ve rarely see any roach burrow-move games, and we’d like to bump this up a bit more with the hope that we’d see it. Considering the few games we did see this strategy being used, they were really fun and different compared to other strategies that Zerg use. Perhaps we can move in small steps in order to see some more burrow move speed usage in various matchups.
Translation : if something isn't common, then it isn't fast enough.
My opinion : the same I had on oracle or DT buff. It's plain stupid.
What I'd do : nothing and let the meta stabilize without hoping every unit and every upgrade will be viable in every mu. It wasn't the case in BW and shouldn't be either here. And please stop with the fun, think about the enjoyment of playing. You'll never be as popular as LoL, focus on making a good game, not an epic show.
[*] The next step for Terran mech
We believe we can push mech usage more as well. Some options we’re looking at here are: higher armored damage for siege tanks, easier access to EMP when going mech (such as building the energy upgrade into the unit), buffing mech air, and so on. However, this is the area in which we’re the least certain. Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated.
Translation : we feel that there aren't enough turtlefests in SC2.
My opinion : nothing to do with balance, but I really wouldn't like SC2 mech to be viable. SC2 mech is by essence purely defensive and deathball oriented because it lacks a good all-around unit. High armored damage for siege tanks won't make them better against swarm hosts, mutalisks, tempests or vipers. Plus mech is already borderline too strong in TvT.
What I'd do : nothing until LotV.
Please keep in mind none of this is even close to final. We truly appreciate your feedback, and we’ll continue to carefully consider what you’ve got to say before we publish the next balance test map.
Translation : we didn't take account of anything you said about the oracle buff or Alterzim Stronghold, but we truly appreciate your feedback...
I'd really like a balance map where Terran can build turrets with barracks as only requirement. This would hugely help T early game and be a good overall buff to the race which I feel is only weak in early game TvP. If they had a good and safe all-around opening in this mu they'd be more than fine.
I really dislike the overcharge change. Duration is extremenly important in pvp, more so than pvt. Pvz isnt even an issue since zerg hasnt had aggressive options beore lair tech for several years, and after that armies get so big overcharge isnt very meaningful. If they want to address pvt specifically they should change range, not duration.
Translation : if something isn't common, then it isn't fast enough.
or, you know, use EMP? tanks and hellbats roflstomp immortals that have lost their shields. BFHB roflstomp pretty much anything and don't give a shit about storm, collosus or Photon Overcharge.
Hell yeah, and replace the tanks with marauders btw, far more efficient and mobile. And replace hellbats by marines, they can stim... well, let's play bio. You are complaining that it would make the Terran mechball to strong to be front attacked brainlessly... Just like the current deathball. Why not ? It would just offer the Terran to reverse roles wih the Protoss.
Lower the health on the Oracle (keep the speed) and lower the vision and speed of the Mothership core. The purpose is to make Mothership core less useful on the offence and as a spotter for blink stalkers. Oracle is extremely strong against its natural enemy, the marine, but it should stay agile so that it benefits from micro. All in all, it should make it a bit easier for the terran to keep up with tech while having enough units to defend harass.
PS: Photon overcharge is just about the best thing that happened to SC2, keep it the way it is, just make the Mothership core more susceptible to sniping.
well. i played defensive toss till this change, guess i have to go for oracle allins, and proxy 2 gates :D Blizz just doesn't want toss players to play macro games ....
On January 03 2014 19:48 Zax19 wrote: Lower the health on the Oracle (keep the speed) and lower the vision and speed of the Mothership core. The purpose is to make Mothership core less useful on the offence and as a spotter for blink stalkers. Oracle is extremely strong against its natural enemy, the marine, but it should stay agile so that it benefits from micro. All in all, it should make it a bit easier for the terran to keep up with tech while having enough units to defend harass.
PS: Photon overcharge is just about the best thing that happened to SC2, keep it the way it is, just make the Mothership core more susceptible to sniping.
I love hearing that. Photon overcharge was indeed the best thing HotS came with, making an unplayable match up a really enjoyable one.
I once read the following idea : an overcharged Nexus can't produce while it's active. I loved it. This plus turrets buildable from barracks would really help T early game since an early game pressure (let's say, some hellions which bait an overcharge) would hinder probe production on one Nexus for a full minute, and T wouldn't be as fragile against DTs and oracles as they're now, and could find a good all-around and safe build that can defend against blink all-ins.
On January 03 2014 19:13 [PkF] Wire wrote: At least they admit there is a problem with Protoss nowadays. I do believe PvZ is fine, but PvT early game feels so unfair especially due to the oracle. I don't think they came up with the right solutions at all though...
Photon overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 40
We believe the the Mothership Core is very well-rounded unit. We like the early aggressive options the Mothership Core provides, such as being able to recall back at the right moments, but we wonder whether the defensive nature of the Mothership Core can be toned down a bit. We’d like to see more options for Terran and Zerg to attack, skirmish, or harass a Protoss player who plays defensively.
Translation : we're too stubborn to revert oracle change.
My opinion : will only affect PvP. 40 sec is still more than enough for a reasonable P to buy time against hellion harass or a stim timing.
What I'd do : an overcharged Nexus can't produce anything during the time the photon cannon is active. So that an early game overcharge hurts the economy and must not be taken lightly.
We believe we can push mech usage more as well. Some options we’re looking at here are: higher armored damage for siege tanks, easier access to EMP when going mech (such as building the energy upgrade into the unit), buffing mech air, and so on. However, this is the area in which we’re the least certain. Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated.
Translation : we feel that there aren't enough turtlefests in SC2.
My opinion : nothing to do with balance, but I really wouldn't like SC2 mech to be viable. SC2 mech is by essence purely defensive and deathball oriented because it lacks a good all-around unit. High armored damage for siege tanks won't make them better against swarm hosts, mutalisks, tempests or vipers. Plus mech is already borderline too strong in TvT.
What I'd do : nothing until LotV.
I couldn't agree more, especially on the Mech part. The only thing they will achieve by buffing mech is that bio becomes completely useless in TvT. In my humble opinion, in this state of the game, mech can't become a viable option in the other matchups - especially in TvP - without a RADICAL change which they will surely not make prior to LotV.
Plus, as you said, mech gives the player the incentive to play a boring, defensive, turtle-based style - do we want to see Terrans play like Protosses? Bio is what makes Terran interesting and special in SC2, its mobility and incentive to multi-tasking and to fast, offensive multi-pronged plays. Seriously, who wants to see another Death-Ball-dependant, turtling race like Protoss? Blizzard is all about "we want this game to be fun to watch" - would this seriously be fun to watch Blizzard?
I am not saying that Mech should be completely disregarded. It would be nice for Terrans to have two viable playstyles, no doubt about that. But in this state of the game, as said above, the only thing they will achieve by buffing mech is that they will make bio completely useless in TvT. So they take the option of playing bio out of that matchup but they won't add the option of playing mech to the other matchups - especially TvP.
i dont understand why everyone is hating on mech, its not that turtley i just played a tvz and it didnt go past 17 mins. i did dmg with hellion banshee and saw an opening to do a timing and it worked. yes there those games where you can't break the mech player but ive play 30-40 min tvp going bio same vs zerg,shit happens i just think players need to figure mech out more to find better timings. flash was doing 2-2 timing in iem and they worked... sometimes. also terrans need to use medivacs more i've been working on doing doom drops with mech in every MU and working very well stole it from watching innovations stream you just need to do it after mutas are gone or on other side of map(helps if you clear OL with vikings before) also really good vs SH, or if toss or terran army in middle of the map.its like 4-5 medivacs 4 tanks and a bunch of hellions with transformation upgrade for hellbats.
and why not just give shield dmg for tanks and no need to buff skyterran we dont want to lose every zerg,or have them allin everygame
edit: before someone say that shit only works in bronze league or something along those lines im a diamond playing masters.also why i brought up innovation if it can work for him why cant it work for all of us.also saw htomario doing some thor hellbat drops today too.
last edit i swear but its also really cute when you bring a raven and drop auto turrets to wall off top of ramps while doing this drop but very risky will probably lose raven if your not careful
On January 03 2014 20:05 [PkF] Wire wrote: I once read the following idea : an overcharged Nexus can't produce while it's active. I loved it. This plus turrets buildable from barracks would really help T early game since an early game pressure (let's say, some hellions which bait an overcharge) would hinder probe production on one Nexus for a full minute, and T wouldn't be as fragile against DTs and oracles as they're now, and could find a good all-around and safe build that can defend against blink all-ins.
Wow, I really like that idea. Imposing an economic cost for baiting out an overcharge would be really interesting.
Maybe they could finally grant Durable Materials upgrade automatically to Raven with these changes. The upgrade has been bugging me since HotS, it is just weird to see it still in game since it no longer affects Seeker Missile.
On January 03 2014 19:54 NLWiNtER wrote: well. i played defensive toss till this change, guess i have to go for oracle allins, and proxy 2 gates :D Blizz just doesn't want toss players to play macro games ....
You made nothing but 2-3 units for the first 9 minutes and love being able to double forge and get all the tech. Now PO might be 40 sec instead of 60 and you are forced to all in every game? what a load of bs
Seems the PO nerf was done to satisfy the stupid masses and Blizzard totally missed the point. MSC is not the problem, Protoss early game aggression versatility vs. the lack of effective scouting is the problem TvP. The PO nerf hurts PvP more than it helps TvP or ZvP.
On January 03 2014 20:39 frozzz wrote: emp access would be great to get ghosts earlier in the midagme, its already such an expensive unit that i think starting energy can justify that
mech TvP. You don't need vikings since hellbats have so much tanking potential with medivacs. Now you can get ghosts very early to deal with immortals. Problem solved.
On January 03 2014 19:54 NLWiNtER wrote: well. i played defensive toss till this change, guess i have to go for oracle allins, and proxy 2 gates :D Blizz just doesn't want toss players to play macro games ....
You made nothing but 2-3 units for the first 9 minutes and love being able to double forge and get all the tech. Now PO might be 40 sec instead of 60 and you are forced to all in every game? what a load of bs
Nony expressed the same sentiment a few pages ago... Funnily enough, didn't see you quote him.
On January 03 2014 20:52 Brian333 wrote: Seems the PO nerf was done to satisfy the stupid masses and Blizzard totally missed the point. MSC is not the problem, Protoss early game aggression versatility vs. the lack of effective scouting is the problem TvP. The PO nerf hurts PvP more than it helps TvP or ZvP.
I totally agree on that. It will hurt PvP, and deosn´t give T or Z more options earlygame.
A vision or a casting range nerf for PO would be better in my opinion.
I think while they focus on buffing mech because it is not utilized in PvT they completely forgot about PvZ, how's zerg going to deal with Buffed air units and siege tanks dealing more damage to roaches/ultralisks/queens etc? I don't agree with buffing mech they should definitely consider bringing the ghost in faster while meching and that's it.
Brian333 and USvBleakill have got the point I think. Nerfing overcharge won't do much outside PvP (which it'll definitely hurt and make more volatile), the problem with TvP is the versatility of P early game. If toss played standard macro builds every game T wouldn't ever complain (or maybe say "fuckin broken deathball colossi templar stupid broken nerf nerf nerf", but hey, they're Terran). The problem is blink all-ins, DTs and oracles that require too much of an appropriate response to be dealt with and aren't that easy to scout and to adapt to. Blizzard must work to give T a safer early game against P, not to give P an unsafer early game.
the PO "nerf" changes nothing, 4 gate was dead anyway, it went to macro in PvP when late WOL. 20 second nerf is nothing. stop making up the doomsday scenarios, PO is probably still too good.
And buffing tanks vs armored is a joke, what are they even thinking, in that case make it PvT specific and give it + vs shield. Also buffing skyterran would be bad since it already is strong vs T and Z. Mech or sky does not need buffs vs Z or T since it is already strong enough.
I love how people are getting upset about the proposed buff to tanks vs armored, yet that would make tanks do more damage to the majority protoss ground units. I think we need to see it in action with the EMP buff before we judge.
For the mocore nerf to be relevant in tvp, terran has to be able to force protoss to pop it before he wants to really attack, and after that 40 second period the mocore can't have another one ready. Some mine drop builds might be able to take advantage of this. Not sure. Many factors. Doubt stim and shield timing builds can take advantage though, you can't really add a 40 second window to those.
Was also hoping for nerfs to oracles and blink stalker strategies, they are obnoxious. Not just because they have the potential to cripple or outright murder the terran but thanks to PO the Protoss has a massive safety net while he waits for storm to finish. But I suppose I'll take whatever I can get.
On January 03 2014 21:20 Plansix wrote: I love how people are getting upset about the proposed buff to tanks vs armored, yet that would make tanks do more damage to the majority protoss ground units. I think we need to see it in action with the EMP buff before we judge.
? Buffing the tank is a very tricky business, since it effects the other MUs so much. It's also silly to buff the unit against the units the tank is actually good against. If it needs buffs, it's against very specific units which it sucks against.
Lastly the EMP buff isn't really that helpful I think for mech, atleast not in macro games. Reason is that mech is (normally) a very passive playstyle, so 40 seconds aren't going to make or break if mech works for the most part. Admittedly it might be a very welcome buff for bio.
On January 03 2014 21:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: Brian333 and USvBleakill have got the point I think. Nerfing overcharge won't do much outside PvP (which it'll definitely hurt and make more volatile), the problem with TvP is the versatility of P early game. If toss played standard macro builds every game T wouldn't ever complain (or maybe say "fuckin broken deathball colossi templar stupid broken nerf nerf nerf", but hey, they're Terran). The problem is blink all-ins, DTs and oracles that require too much of an appropriate response to be dealt with and aren't that easy to scout and to adapt to. Blizzard must work to give T a safer early game against P, not to give P an unsafer early game.
I heavily disagree with this. Atleast that terran needs to be safer. I think protoss allins need to be easier to scout _or_ the defense needs to be less specific. That being said, I really don't like killing allins alltogether like the MSC and the queen buff have done to a large extent. I'm not really much of an alliner and I hate getting allined, but it's a part of the game and it makes the first ~10 minutes a lot more fun and exciting imo.
On January 03 2014 21:20 Plansix wrote: I love how people are getting upset about the proposed buff to tanks vs armored, yet that would make tanks do more damage to the majority protoss ground units. I think we need to see it in action with the EMP buff before we judge.
? Buffing the tank is a very tricky business, since it effects the other MUs so much. It's also silly to buff the unit against the units the tank is actually good against. If it needs buffs, it's against very specific units which it sucks against.
Lastly the EMP buff isn't really that helpful I think for mech, atleast not in macro games. Reason is that mech is (normally) a very passive playstyle, so 40 seconds aren't going to make or break if mech works for the most part. Admittedly it might be a very welcome buff for bio.
I don't think buffing the tank against units that are effective against it is a good plan. Units need to have weakness. Tanks already do a lot of damage to stalkers, colossi and other armored units, but they don't do it fast enough. A buff against those units could allow them to get their dark business done quick enough to win the fight. And easier access to EMP would help that as well, since EMP takes the wind out of stalkers and immortals.
On January 03 2014 21:20 Plansix wrote: I love how people are getting upset about the proposed buff to tanks vs armored, yet that would make tanks do more damage to the majority protoss ground units. I think we need to see it in action with the EMP buff before we judge.
? Buffing the tank is a very tricky business, since it effects the other MUs so much. It's also silly to buff the unit against the units the tank is actually good against. If it needs buffs, it's against very specific units which it sucks against.
Lastly the EMP buff isn't really that helpful I think for mech, atleast not in macro games. Reason is that mech is (normally) a very passive playstyle, so 40 seconds aren't going to make or break if mech works for the most part. Admittedly it might be a very welcome buff for bio.
I don't think buffing the tank against units that are effective against it is a good plan. Units need to have weakness. Tanks already do a lot of damage to stalkers, colossi and other armored units, but they don't do it fast enough. A buff against those units could allow them to get their dark business done quick enough to win the fight. And easier access to EMP would help that as well, since EMP takes the wind out of stalkers and immortals.
Ok good, then we agree. And I do agree with you that units should have weaknesses, but the problem with the tank is that it's weakness is such a massive one that it's strengths just aren't worth it a majority of the time I do however disagree with you that tanks don't do their dmg fast enough. I think their damage against armored units is quite fine, they massacre stalkers and colossi alike, the problem just comes from immos, archons and to lesser extent chargelots(and the eventual switch to air which is imo to strong with the support of hts).
And yeah again, the EMP buff is not easier access, but just moving a timing of like 18 minutes to 19 minutes. It's effects on TvP mech games will be minimal at best.
Edit: Ugh nvm I misread your first sentence, then we completely disagree
also, with the photon overcharge nerf not only PvP will be even worse, also speedling all ins will come back every game in PvZ YAY ALL I EVER WANTED
Speedling all ins were not very common even before the MSC existed. And 40 secs is more than enough vs lings, by the time overcharge expires the lings will be dead or the protoss will be.
On January 03 2014 21:20 Plansix wrote: I love how people are getting upset about the proposed buff to tanks vs armored, yet that would make tanks do more damage to the majority protoss ground units. I think we need to see it in action with the EMP buff before we judge.
? Buffing the tank is a very tricky business, since it effects the other MUs so much. It's also silly to buff the unit against the units the tank is actually good against. If it needs buffs, it's against very specific units which it sucks against.
Lastly the EMP buff isn't really that helpful I think for mech, atleast not in macro games. Reason is that mech is (normally) a very passive playstyle, so 40 seconds aren't going to make or break if mech works for the most part. Admittedly it might be a very welcome buff for bio.
I don't think buffing the tank against units that are effective against it is a good plan. Units need to have weakness. Tanks already do a lot of damage to stalkers, colossi and other armored units, but they don't do it fast enough. A buff against those units could allow them to get their dark business done quick enough to win the fight. And easier access to EMP would help that as well, since EMP takes the wind out of stalkers and immortals.
Ok good, then we agree. And I do agree with you that units should have weaknesses, but the problem with the tank is that it's weakness is such a massive one that it's strengths just aren't worth it a majority of the time I do however disagree with you that tanks don't do their dmg fast enough. I think their damage against armored units is quite fine, they massacre stalkers and colossi alike, the problem just comes from immos, archons and to lesser extent chargelots(and the eventual switch to air which is imo to strong with the support of hts).
And yeah again, the EMP buff is not easier access, but just moving a timing of like 18 minutes to 19 minutes. It's effects on TvP mech games will be minimal at best.
From the notes it sounds like they have not made up their mind yet, but want to buff the DPS vs armored for tanks, make EMP easier to get earlier and more effective and making mech do more damage to air units. All that stuff sounds pretty good on paper and will go to make mech more well rounded.
Edit: I also like the people who keep demanding they rework protoss in the next patch. Personally, I want them to mod in heroes, because I think that would make the game cooler and its about as reasonable a request.
Instead of throwing nosense buffs to random units, why they don't step back saying:
"Guys, we've finally understood what you (as a community) told to us for the last 3 years (4 soon™). So for the next 6 months we won't do shit about the game, we'll take the protoss race and we'll replace or tweak colossi, MSC, sentries and void-rays in order to create a race capable of playing in an rts game. Then we'll look at the other races and we'll tweak something for them in order to rebalance the game entirely. LotV is coming (Soon™)."
but yeah, sentries, colossi, MSC.. they're awesome.. aren't they? :facepalm:
On January 03 2014 21:53 FrozenProbe wrote: Instead of throwing nosense buff to random units, why they don't step back saying:
"Guys, we've finally understood what you (as a community) told to us for the last 3 years (4 soon™). So for the next 6 months we won't do shit about the game, we'll take the protoss race and we'll replace or tweak colossi, MSC, sentry and void-rays in order to create a race capable of playing in an rts game. Then we'll look at the other races and we'll tweak something for them in order to rebalance the game entirely. LotV is coming (Soon™)."
but yeah, sentries, colossi, MSC.. they're awesome.. aren't they? :facepalm:
Do they have resources for such big changes? I think they don't - because of the way how HotS was released(It's not a stand-alone game ;-)) As much as I agree I don't think Blizzard will do anything big since they don't have enough money to do this. And I think we all can agree that LotV is a great opportunity to redo P race
Edit> I mean Blizzard SC2 team, not Blizzard as a company
lowering PO time will hurt PvP because 40 sec is considered quite short time there when one trying to hold pressure, (i.e time is crucial when someone have less army but mining more vs someone with more army that mining less).
But on the opposite side (PvT) - 40 sec is still quite a lot of time, when we're looking on drop harass it really doesn't matter - a terran wont pick up because of PO and then redrop after 40 sec.... it doesnt make sense, since all prottos actually need is a decent amount of zealot stalkers to hold 1-2 meds drop. we need to ask ourself - does prottos need PO in all match-ups more for multitask defense (PvT) or for a huge tactical defenses (PvP).
Bottom line - lowering PO time will hurt PvP and wont change a thing in PvT... a proper solution will be lowering its DPS and adding bonus damage to shields, so in PvP it'll stay the same.
On January 03 2014 17:30 sagefreke wrote: Please for the love of god buff Nydus Worms.
Couple suggestions:
1. Remove the alert. 2. Reduce the cost to build structure. 3. Reduce the cost to build Nydus (Worm). 4. Reduce build time to build Nydus (Worm). 5. Make it so multiple worms can be built at a time from one Nydus. 6. Increase the rate that units pop out of the Worm.
As a terran player i think the game balance is decent.
I like the current TvZ match up alot.
The TvP matchup for me as terran has one problem that as terran you always end up doing the same thing. reaper expand to be able to scout if toss doing an all in and respond correcly to it or punish greedy build with early 3 basis. If toss gate expands i feel you slightly behind. All in all being terran vs toss is very reactional.
I think it would be great for the match up to have more build variations as a terran
What to do to fix this? making mech more viable does not tend to give early game options vs protoss but atleast a different way to play. ( I would prefer some to have 2 or 3 cheese options that could potentially work vs Toss that hard counter Toss cheeses them selves and vica versa) (as toss has like 5-6 1 base options and some strong 2 base timings)
The suggestion i like the most 1. Give tanks a added damage to shields. (does not effect TvZ and TvT) 2. Add + 1 range to ghost for snipe (personally i have most trouble using ghost efficiently when protoss has HT and COL Ghost just die before they get the snip/ EMP off. Putting the ghost in middle of you bio ball in my experience is bad idea as you melt from the Storm COL combo. Spotting observers that are in middle of toss deathball is pain in the asse 3. Make mech AA better (thor faster or more damage or Turrets AOE) 4. Make unsiege faster (not siege) and make transition from Hellbat to Hellion faster 5. Reduce cost of transformation Hellion/ Hellbat 6. Like the nydus worm buff suggestions 7. making splitting up mech army a little more friendly and stil cost inefficient but not walkover like now. (adds more offensive play possible as terran turtling to 200 suply and move out is boring to) 8. make some spells of the MSC researcheble and upgradeble
The suggestion i do not like 1. Giving EMP to raven i think will not work as raven as very late game unit and cost 300 gas besides if you get ravens you want to use energy on seeker missles. Do not think it wil work. 2. Making mech stronger in TvT and TvZ (ground battles) 3. Making burrow speed even faster (lets see over a longer period of time what effect is) 4. Make vikings stronger vs air they pretty good as it is. if properly combined with other units. 5. Making all units faster and faster I like the strategy element in the game to be important and not the reaction/micro all powerfull.
The PO nerf is a good idea but perhaps you can remove the PO doing damage to air to make banshee and mutas better vs toss.
and just when i was about to give up on sc2 for good, david kim brings me back and makes me really wanna play again :D thank you david kim!!!! :D :D :D
I think this patch looks like a pretty nice step forward.
But i dont think nerfing the photon overcharge is enought. No i dont would like to see it reduce to 10 secondes, it's just i think the problem is not the balance of the photon overcharge, but its design : → Protoss needed a way to defend early pushes, and we give them this spell? This spell just stop the game, stop the entertainment, nobody can micro, the protoss launch the spell and work hard to have enought to hold the attack 60s later ; and the opponent (any race, Z, T, P) can just wait, walking around, trying to keep himself ready and calm. Noone have to micro anything.
I think the best way to do is to erase the photon-overcharge and replace it by another defensive spell more interesting, where every player will PLAY and FIGHT, not a spell where every player cannot play.
For exemples : •Psionic backup : call some temporary units close to the targeted nexus → units to create and to balance of course but in this case, both player can still fight and micro. •Ladding transformation : the mothership-core himself land close to the targeted nexus and become a temporary big gosu unit ready to defend. → again, in this case both player can PLAY and micro something. • Any Creative spell : a much more interesting spell create by the awesome blizzard team i love.
On January 03 2014 17:30 sagefreke wrote: Please for the love of god buff Nydus Worms.
Couple suggestions:
1. Remove the alert. 2. Reduce the cost to build structure. 3. Reduce the cost to build Nydus (Worm). 4. Reduce build time to build Nydus (Worm). 5. Make it so multiple worms can be built at a time from one Nydus. 6. Increase the rate that units pop out of the Worm.
Nydus has gotten zero love since release.
just make it undetectable on mini map
You realize how op it would be ? Roach nydus allin everygame, no way to spot it, instant lose every game. Nydus of 2 bases is already really strong if you don't react fast enough to kill the said nydus, imagine if it is undetectable with on minimap.
On January 03 2014 09:31 vhapter wrote: If you don't have anything useful to do Blizzard, please leave the game ALONE. They must have thought the oracle buff wasn't enough to worsen the rock-paper-scissors factor in PvP, so they've decided to come up with yet another needless change that makes it even more unstable.
Protoss players still need to rely on mind reading skills to know if a zerg player has built a spire for mutas, corruptors, both, or just to laugh at the protoss for blindly making phoenix so as not to straight up die to a muta flock. Even the worst ladder zergs are able to abuse that. In the meantime, all blizzard can think of is a roach buff that mostly affects an already zerg-favored matchup.
Actually it's currently the most balanced matchup. Perhaps there are some flaws in your play style ? You should upload replays and ask others for their opinion on what you are doing wrong
Mech still lacks the mini/medium sized Thor AA unit that it so desperately needs. Modify the Thor into a medium sized Warhound with AA and Haywire Missiles to help deal with Immortals and Archons or something in that sense.
Overcharge vs Terran is mostly dominated by the massive 13 range. 40 seconds is still more than enough to deny any kind of pre 10 minute timing. I'd rather see the range reduced to something like 8 or 9. This would also provide Tanks with a unique TvP niche in that they can fire on a Overcharged Nexus freely.
Tanks vs Armored isn't the problem, Stalkers and Colossi will melt to Tanks, the problem is everything else. Just bring the raw damage back to 50 vs all. Zerglings already die to Tanks with +1 anyway and currently I am not aware of any early Marine/Tank timings before +1 so it wouldn't affect Zerg much. (you don't use Hydras vs Tanks)
It would make Marines in Tank fights a lot less useful but is that really super bad? An increase in the Marauder count would deal with this and Tanks on both sides would deal more damage. Marine/Marauder/Tank vs Mech would still be fine because of the increased damage against Hellions/Hellbats.
EMP was fine before the nerf for one simple reason: spamming it does nothing. Once the shields are gone it has little to no effect to EMP any further. Too many ghosts can thusly be dangerous but mass HT for mass Storm is still deadly.
As for HT vs Ghost I will say the usual: If an HT gets in range first, the Ghost always dies 100% garantueed to Feedback. Even IF it doesn't, it has no energy left at all and you do not get Ghosts for the auto-attack. A Ghost that gets an EMP off is still not safe against any HTs with 150+ energy and the HT is not dead and can still freely transform into an Archon, negating the EMP entirely. Only Snipe works but it has to be applied twice to get a kill and is useless in every other regard. I don't think working 75 energy into a Ghost is a good change though (no caster has this), I'd rather see EMP radius restored to what it was.
And...honestly said, morphing into an Archon should require a minimum of 25 energy on any one of the High Templars that are used in the joining. Two DTs can morph without any energy requirements but if two HTs were to morph into an Archon, atleast one of them should have 25 energy. That way EMP has a more lasting effect on the unit it is supposed to affect the most. Or, if that is too harsh, make it so an EMPed HT will mean the morphing Archon has less shields while morphing and when done. I cringe whenever I see a good Terran lands all the EMPs correctly and the HTs just flip them off, go 'NOPE!' and morph instantly into 360 HP Archons on the spot. Maybe the 350 shields should built up as the Archon morphs in instead of granting it at 100% immediately?
Roach Burrow I haven't seen, so I'm fine with Blizzard trying this out. If it turns out OP, they can dial it back until it's just right.
On January 03 2014 17:30 sagefreke wrote: Please for the love of god buff Nydus Worms.
Couple suggestions:
1. Remove the alert. 2. Reduce the cost to build structure. 3. Reduce the cost to build Nydus (Worm). 4. Reduce build time to build Nydus (Worm). 5. Make it so multiple worms can be built at a time from one Nydus. 6. Increase the rate that units pop out of the Worm.
Nydus has gotten zero love since release.
just make it undetectable on mini map
You realize how op it would be ? Roach nydus allin everygame, no way to spot it, instant lose every game. Nydus of 2 bases is already really strong if you don't react fast enough to kill the said nydus, imagine if it is undetectable with on minimap.
Yeah, I am not really sure what protoss would do to stop, but I think prayer would be involved. Maybe they should make it so the worm can't be killed by pulling all your workers. That might make it slightly more viable.
They are really starting to fucking interfere with this game way too much. It's becoming WoW-like with the rolling nerfs and buffs. Dog chasing its tail.
How about just making nydus accessible earlier? One of the biggest problems I have with zerg is the lack of variety in early game aggression compared to protoss specifically, and terran to some extent. It's pretty much all just basic lair tech units trying to bust the front.
Making nydus a legitimate threat early game would give zerg some more options and give protoss and terran something to worry about apart from a big bust, which tbh is rather easy to both scout and stop.
On January 03 2014 23:47 Bagi wrote: "Stop patching the game Blizzard!", cried the protoss icons in unison.
Nah, most protoss don't care that much, except that the nerf to PO might fuck up PvP. I think everyone accepted that it might be to good against early terran aggression. But PvP is always fucked, it doesn't really matter what you do to it.
PvP fucked you say? You mean if you remove defender's advantage completely from either player, with both players having roughly 12375 ways to kill each other, the match up ends up being really stupid? Surely not.
I have no idea how to salvage PvP at this point, I don't think it should be a concern when making balance changes. It can't be taken into account too much, because it's so wonky that almost anything could throw it off.
On January 03 2014 23:41 Brett wrote: They are really starting to fucking interfere with this game way too much. It's becoming WoW-like with the rolling nerfs and buffs. Dog chasing its tail.
They have barely touched the game since HotS. It is actually quite alarming to me how little they have done since release. During WoL we had 3 major patches (1.1.0., 1.2.0. and 1.3.0.) quicker than we have the first major patch in HotS (2.1.0.).
On January 03 2014 23:41 Brett wrote: They are really starting to fucking interfere with this game way too much. It's becoming WoW-like with the rolling nerfs and buffs. Dog chasing its tail.
They have barely touched the game since HotS. It is actually quite alarming to me how little they have done since release. During WoL we had 3 major patches (1.1.0., 1.2.0. and 1.3.0.) quicker than we have the first major patch in HotS (2.1.0.).
These major patches were not balance patches, but feature patches, like IU, chats, etc. Since it's pretty good right now, not much change was needed. Now there is 2.1 that will add the f2p aspect but that's pretty much it.
On January 03 2014 23:41 Brett wrote: They are really starting to fucking interfere with this game way too much. It's becoming WoW-like with the rolling nerfs and buffs. Dog chasing its tail.
They have barely touched the game since HotS. It is actually quite alarming to me how little they have done since release. During WoL we had 3 major patches (1.1.0., 1.2.0. and 1.3.0.) quicker than we have the first major patch in HotS (2.1.0.).
These major patches were not balance patches, but feature patches, like IU, chats, etc. Since it's pretty good right now, not much change was needed. Now there is 2.1 that will add the f2p aspect but that's pretty much it.
You are absolutely wrong. All of the major patches also included balance changes in WoL. The total amount of balance changes in those major patches far exceeds the amount of balance changes we have had so far in HotS. On the top of these balance changes there was even more changes between the major patches. And all of this happened in pretty much the same time frame.
See the Artosis tweet for why the nerf is warranted (despite me thinking duration change is not the way to go)
I want Time Warp at 100 energy, Recall at 125, Overcharge at 125.
Make a decision on what spell you use, instead of combo's like triple time warp (Blink all in), Recall Overcharge, Time Warp Recall, Double Overcharges, Time Warp Overcharge.
Make spending MSC Energy a real decision, not something you can use at leasure.
Also - I'd like a MSC Movement nerf and sight range decrease - just to make highground vision more of a commitment.
On January 03 2014 23:47 Bagi wrote: "Stop patching the game Blizzard!", cried the protoss icons in unison.
Nah, most protoss don't care that much, except that the nerf to PO might fuck up PvP. I think everyone accepted that it might be to good against early terran aggression. But PvP is always fucked, it doesn't really matter what you do to it.
"Protoss don't balance whine" K. Not sure how this helps the matchup. Now my attack is delayed 20 second less, still too much.
I don't think PvP should be nerfed. It's the one matchup where Protoss has trouble early game, it's already so volatile as it is... You never know what Protoss might do to you, so as Protoss you have to have a tool for absolute one-click defense. I'm fine with the roach buff though, as long as you give detection to the mothership core (the unit is really lackluster and could use a buff. We can't only rely on sieged Nexus to do the heavy lifting).
On January 03 2014 23:41 Brett wrote: They are really starting to fucking interfere with this game way too much. It's becoming WoW-like with the rolling nerfs and buffs. Dog chasing its tail.
They have barely touched the game since HotS. It is actually quite alarming to me how little they have done since release. During WoL we had 3 major patches (1.1.0., 1.2.0. and 1.3.0.) quicker than we have the first major patch in HotS (2.1.0.).
These major patches were not balance patches, but feature patches, like IU, chats, etc. Since it's pretty good right now, not much change was needed. Now there is 2.1 that will add the f2p aspect but that's pretty much it.
You are absolutely wrong. All of the major patches also included balance changes in WoL. The total amount of balance changes in those major patches far exceeds the amount of balance changes we have had so far in HotS. On the top of these balance changes there was even more changes between the major patches. And all of this happened in pretty much the same time frame.
What he ment is that nowadays, 'major patches' are always content (2.1, 2.2), Balance patches are just implemented (possibly 2.0.1, 2.0.2, 2.1.1, 2.1.2, etcetera)
On January 03 2014 23:41 Brett wrote: They are really starting to fucking interfere with this game way too much. It's becoming WoW-like with the rolling nerfs and buffs. Dog chasing its tail.
They have barely touched the game since HotS. It is actually quite alarming to me how little they have done since release. During WoL we had 3 major patches (1.1.0., 1.2.0. and 1.3.0.) quicker than we have the first major patch in HotS (2.1.0.).
These major patches were not balance patches, but feature patches, like IU, chats, etc. Since it's pretty good right now, not much change was needed. Now there is 2.1 that will add the f2p aspect but that's pretty much it.
You are absolutely wrong. All of the major patches also included balance changes in WoL. The total amount of balance changes in those major patches far exceeds the amount of balance changes we have had so far in HotS. On the top of these balance changes there was even more changes between the major patches. And all of this happened in pretty much the same time frame.
So you're saying that 1.1.0 was a bigger balance patch than 1.1.2 ? Or 1.3.0 bigger than 1.3.3.
These big patches were not "balance patches" bug sc2 patches in general, just adding balance in it because why not, better doing one big update than 3 or 4 of them. Look at the frequency of these : September 2010, January 2011, March 2011. That's a lot of change within a really short period. They just "packed" everything inside one big patch.
On January 03 2014 07:55 IeZaeL wrote: Nice shit. Templar openings are dead now. 10 min push + 2 emp = gg
you don´t need ghost energy for that, my little friend, because ghosts without EN upgrade will have an emp ready, when they arrive at protoss base.
and making pure mech playstyles too strong is a bad idea. It´s really boring gameplay-wise. Enable all currently underused units to synergyze well with bio strats instead!
On January 03 2014 21:20 Plansix wrote: I love how people are getting upset about the proposed buff to tanks vs armored, yet that would make tanks do more damage to the majority protoss ground units. I think we need to see it in action with the EMP buff before we judge.
What I think is odd is that they're proposing a buff to damage vs armored. Tanks already eat armored units, the damage as it is is pretty good. The real weakness of the tank in TvP (apart from immortals) is that zealots and archons piss on them because neither one is armored. If we're gonna buff tank damage, we should just do a flat buff instead of buffing it against armored only.
Well thats kinda the idea of boosting EMP usage Because what tanks don't deal with Emps will IE BFH EMp Eat Archon and Zlots .... you can't expect to make 1 unit and win 100% of the time in engagements lol
No nerf to Oracle? After the justified nerfs to Hellbat and Widow Mine, this is one of the last units that makes me cringe every time I see it in a pro match.
On January 03 2014 21:20 Plansix wrote: I love how people are getting upset about the proposed buff to tanks vs armored, yet that would make tanks do more damage to the majority protoss ground units. I think we need to see it in action with the EMP buff before we judge.
What I think is odd is that they're proposing a buff to damage vs armored. Tanks already eat armored units, the damage as it is is pretty good. The real weakness of the tank in TvP (apart from immortals) is that zealots and archons piss on them because neither one is armored. If we're gonna buff tank damage, we should just do a flat buff instead of buffing it against armored only.
Agreed, I'm not really understanding Blizzard logic here. A buff against armored will just buff mech against zerg (roaches, utlras) and in TvT (marauders). What it wont do is help against the standard immortal/archon that a-moves over mech armies without breaking a sweat.
Agreed, I'm not really understanding Blizzard logic here. A buff against armored will just buff mech against zerg (roaches, utlras) and in TvT (marauders). What it wont do is help against the standard immortal/archon that a-moves over mech armies without breaking a sweat
Your completely right but I think they are trying to decide on this on top of the emp buff so that Tanks will do good against that composition seeing how Immortl are Armored so if you are fighting that kind of army you have to have Ghost Tank Hellbat and you will come out ahead on the fight....
On January 03 2014 21:20 Plansix wrote: I love how people are getting upset about the proposed buff to tanks vs armored, yet that would make tanks do more damage to the majority protoss ground units. I think we need to see it in action with the EMP buff before we judge.
What I think is odd is that they're proposing a buff to damage vs armored. Tanks already eat armored units, the damage as it is is pretty good. The real weakness of the tank in TvP (apart from immortals) is that zealots and archons piss on them because neither one is armored. If we're gonna buff tank damage, we should just do a flat buff instead of buffing it against armored only.
hellbats wreck zealots on their own and wreck archons with tank support. Has any of you actually even tried it or even watched a replay? So much ignorance in this thread wtf.
Just buff the fucking tank damage against shield already. One simple fix to buff mech against protoss without fucking zerg over completely. I also honestly cant believe they say they want to buff mech by buffing a fucking bio-unit.
On January 03 2014 21:20 Plansix wrote: I love how people are getting upset about the proposed buff to tanks vs armored, yet that would make tanks do more damage to the majority protoss ground units. I think we need to see it in action with the EMP buff before we judge.
What I think is odd is that they're proposing a buff to damage vs armored. Tanks already eat armored units, the damage as it is is pretty good. The real weakness of the tank in TvP (apart from immortals) is that zealots and archons piss on them because neither one is armored. If we're gonna buff tank damage, we should just do a flat buff instead of buffing it against armored only.
hellbats wreck zealots on their own and wreck archons with tank support. Has any of you actually even tried it or even watched a replay? So much ignorance in this thread wtf.
Youre completely wrong. Archons absolutely destroy hellbats because hellbats have a biotag and archons do +dmg to biological. Tanks do shit against archons because again, archons arent armored, which is about the only thing tanks are good against except lings and marines.
On January 03 2014 21:20 Plansix wrote: I love how people are getting upset about the proposed buff to tanks vs armored, yet that would make tanks do more damage to the majority protoss ground units. I think we need to see it in action with the EMP buff before we judge.
What I think is odd is that they're proposing a buff to damage vs armored. Tanks already eat armored units, the damage as it is is pretty good. The real weakness of the tank in TvP (apart from immortals) is that zealots and archons piss on them because neither one is armored. If we're gonna buff tank damage, we should just do a flat buff instead of buffing it against armored only.
hellbats wreck zealots on their own and wreck archons with tank support. Has any of you actually even tried it or even watched a replay? So much ignorance in this thread wtf.
I don't think I could make a more ironic post if I tried.
Archons absolutely wreck hellbats. Add a storm or two and they wont last more than a few seconds.
As a protoss player, I think these changes are good. PO is just a very boring spell. Takes no skill and prevents all early attacks what so ever by terran and zerg. Now it will at least increase the posibilties of in early game TvP and ZvP. Only problem is, as many have pointed out, that Pvp will get more wierd.
On January 04 2014 01:15 Qikz wrote: One amazing change they could do is move EMP to ravens since it'd mean they'd get used more and it'd actually help mech.
Revert oracle to prepatch. All other changes sound really weird / unessecary. Blizz is not allowing for more responses on their official thread so sorry for posting here.
For moving EMP to ravens, it could be a good thing, although the slowness of the ravens could be 'very' tricky, maybe add one range to the spell, although in this case i'd better test it like it is now than buffing it first.
If this changes comes up, add lockdown to the ghost could be very cool, AND reverting old ghost cost (or even rebuff snipe a litlle while making it 50(100)/200. Making it like: Add Raven or Ghost first, because of gas cost, and it'll add to the ghost something Only against mechanical while snipe is only against biological. Something like that can be interesting as well as fun. Against Collo play, it can make ghost first interesting too, instead of 'always vikings'. More than one response to the same thing is really good gameplay-wise. And it can be tricky for mech too if gas cost is reverted, making it even harder for biomech/mech to add ghost AND ravens, while the 2 of them are useful or even needed in late-late game.
For the mech part, just REVERT THAT UPGRADE THING. it's ugly and bad, as only good for the turtling mech style. Just make ground mech good, or anti-air mech good, or ground-viking better, or just buff mech units so biomech can be done.
Any buff to the tanks will be good because promoting at least biomech if not pure mech, Donm't care about TvT if it's only mech, we have one TvT out of 20 games aniway. and MechvsMech can be fun too, for now it's the only MU where mech can be used competitively, or even can be used without this 45+ minutesboring game mass raven.
But they won't do that: they don't revert the stupid changes, they don't look back and try something new even if it's ugly design wise and unintuitive.
One amazing change they could do is move EMP to ravens since it'd mean they'd get used more and it'd actually help mech.
I smell a BW Lover hahaha Honestly i'm not a fan of mech so i'm not really interested in seeing it work but I think these changes would be interesting haha
As a protoss player, I think these changes are good. PO is just a very boring spell. Takes no skill and prevents all early attacks what so ever by terran and zerg. Now it will at least increase the posibilties of in early game TvP and ZvP. Only problem is, as many have pointed out, that Pvp will get more wierd.
Yea this i completely agree with but in no world should a Race balance be defined by the mirror match up.... I think thats where blizzard is getting this wrong.... if they make the race a Micro rewarding race as opposed to this unit kills things instantly with an A move then PvP is ALWAYS going to be a weird match up where Mid masters players can Own GMs if he can execute a Counter build well against the GM hahahaha
its not really rocket science but if you skip the reaper opening and go straight to factory and widow mines you will hold the blink allin that you scouted with 1 scv.
On January 03 2014 21:20 Plansix wrote: I love how people are getting upset about the proposed buff to tanks vs armored, yet that would make tanks do more damage to the majority protoss ground units. I think we need to see it in action with the EMP buff before we judge.
What I think is odd is that they're proposing a buff to damage vs armored. Tanks already eat armored units, the damage as it is is pretty good. The real weakness of the tank in TvP (apart from immortals) is that zealots and archons piss on them because neither one is armored. If we're gonna buff tank damage, we should just do a flat buff instead of buffing it against armored only.
hellbats wreck zealots on their own and wreck archons with tank support. Has any of you actually even tried it or even watched a replay? So much ignorance in this thread wtf.
Youre completely wrong. Archons absolutely destroy hellbats because hellbats have a biotag and archons do +dmg to biological. Tanks do shit against archons because again, archons arent armored, which is about the only thing tanks are good against except lings and marines.
correct, but you don't take into consideration how expensive an archon is. Say you have 2 archons, that's 200/600 or 500/500. you can use 7 Hellbats and still be cost-efficient. Theorycrafting alone isn't good enough. Yeah they do +dmg, but that doesn't mean hellbats are instantly not viable.
On January 03 2014 21:20 Plansix wrote: I love how people are getting upset about the proposed buff to tanks vs armored, yet that would make tanks do more damage to the majority protoss ground units. I think we need to see it in action with the EMP buff before we judge.
What I think is odd is that they're proposing a buff to damage vs armored. Tanks already eat armored units, the damage as it is is pretty good. The real weakness of the tank in TvP (apart from immortals) is that zealots and archons piss on them because neither one is armored. If we're gonna buff tank damage, we should just do a flat buff instead of buffing it against armored only.
hellbats wreck zealots on their own and wreck archons with tank support. Has any of you actually even tried it or even watched a replay? So much ignorance in this thread wtf.
I don't think I could make a more ironic post if I tried.
Archons absolutely wreck hellbats. Add a storm or two and they wont last more than a few seconds.
I welcome you to try this: 13 Blue flame hellbats vs 15 zealots and 2 archons? hellbats win. 3 archons and 9 zealots vs 13 BFHB? hellbats win. 13 BFHB vs 4 archons? Hellbats win.
that's 1300 gas beaten with 1300 minerals.
Just imagine what could happen if you target fired or had a single ghost.
I find photon overcharge nerf to be a good thing, and I am a Protoss player. It counters early harass too completely, 60 seconds was more than enough to prepare your defense - even in PvP.
if played right tvz mech is already unstoppable (not all maps). If Blizzard really wants to buff mech, zerg needs an aa option that is somewhat efficient vs ravens.
Also pvz is a horribly designed matchup for both sides.
On January 04 2014 01:39 darkness wrote: Come on, don't break PvP. Does Blizzard want to take it back to WoL level?
PvP has been hopeless since day1 of WoL. We can't design the game around it, the match up is so borked because of warp gate and other stuff, we'll just have to deal with the fact that it's always going to be dumb.
The fact that protoss needs a 60 seconds super tanky mega cannon to be able to do anything other than 1 basing is a problem with protoss, and not any reason whatsoever to have PO neuter offensive options for T and Z in the early game.
On January 04 2014 02:11 ZenithM wrote: I don't want to sacrifice the benediction that is PvP for something as flimsy and optional as "balance". Please Blizzard, get your shit together.
Yeah, it's hard for me to find it in myself to even play now, with this possibility of a change. I can't go back to WoL p vs p. I just can't do that. Foreign terrans are always going to be bad terrans. They're the worst part about HotS. 0 foreign terran bonjwas or players that were even winning tournaments, to my knowledge, when they were the strongest race. Given this, when will the whine/excuses end? Never.
They've already given terran free 3-3 on air upgrades. Foreign terrans don't seem to have the skill/apm,etc to play anything but mech, so may as well make tanks super imbal. Make them as imbalanced as possible. They're bad enough to deserve other races having a handicap. For the love of god, make them imbal as fuck, already, so there's a slight chance of them stfu. Can I please just have a decent p vs p game? Stop rewarding caveman play. I'm tired of seeing all-ins. I'm tired of players being at the top of the ladder when everyone already knows they're going to all-in them. It's not a strategy game at that point. It's brainless if things like that can be that strong.
Finally, Dkim deciding to balance the game by buffing rather than nerfing. Not happy with roach buff but I'd rather have scary units than a unit that's never used (RIP WoL Snipe)
On January 04 2014 02:11 ZenithM wrote: I don't want to sacrifice the benediction that is PvP for something as flimsy and optional as "balance". Please Blizzard, get your shit together.
Yeah, it's hard for me to find it in myself to even play now, with this possibility of a change. I can't go back to WoL p vs p. I just can't do that. Foreign terrans are always going to be bad terrans. They're the worst part about HotS. 0 foreign terran bonjwas or players that were even winning tournaments, to my knowledge, when they were the strongest race. Given this, when will the whine/excuses end? Never.
They've already given terran free 3-3 on air upgrades. Foreign terrans don't seem to have the skill/apm,etc to play anything but mech, so may as well make tanks super imbal. Make them as imbalanced as possible. They're bad enough to deserve other races having a handicap. For the love of god, make them imbal as fuck, already, so there's a slight chance of them stfu. Can I please just have a decent p vs p game? Stop rewarding caveman play. I'm tired of seeing all-ins. I'm tired of players being at the top of the ladder when everyone already knows they're going to all-in them. It's not a strategy game at that point. It's brainless if things like that can be that strong.
Yes, those below 100 apm protoss players are just so much better than those shitty non korean terrans. You definately have a point!
On January 04 2014 02:11 ZenithM wrote: I don't want to sacrifice the benediction that is PvP for something as flimsy and optional as "balance". Please Blizzard, get your shit together.
Yeah, it's hard for me to find it in myself to even play now, with this possibility of a change. I can't go back to WoL p vs p. I just can't do that. Foreign terrans are always going to be bad terrans. They're the worst part about HotS. 0 foreign terran bonjwas or players that were even winning tournaments, to my knowledge, when they were the strongest race. Given this, when will the whine/excuses end? Never.
They've already given terran free 3-3 on air upgrades. Foreign terrans don't seem to have the skill/apm,etc to play anything but mech, so may as well make tanks super imbal. Make them as imbalanced as possible. They're bad enough to deserve other races having a handicap. For the love of god, make them imbal as fuck, already, so there's a slight chance of them stfu. Can I please just have a decent p vs p game? Stop rewarding caveman play. I'm tired of seeing all-ins. I'm tired of players being at the top of the ladder when everyone already knows they're going to all-in them. It's not a strategy game at that point. It's brainless if things like that can be that strong.
Yes, those below 100 apm protoss players are just so much better than those shitty non korean terrans. You definately have a point!
Your race is hard, we get it by now... But, foreign terrans have always been so much worse than Koreans. Weird. You guys do play the same race, correct? Obviously there is a skill discrepancy that isn't going to be fixed by qq'ing. Blizzard's best bet is to cater to foreign terrans who have proven time and time again that they don't have it in them to play bio at the level needed.
Mech is a lot easier of a style and it suits your 100 apm, toss equivalent players like Sjow and Goody. Everyone says mech is a lot worse than bio, but personally, I don't think avilo or mario would fare any better if they used bio. They would probably be a lot worse. Buff the easy style some more. That way, Koreans can keep owning face with bio, and foreign terrans can stick to easy mode and perhaps, one day, when the tank does 10000 damage and the race starts with 3-3, I can not see terran qq filling up the forum. It's a big dream, I know. As a toss player, I'd love for them to make terran imbalanced, simply so terran players will fuck off. Just leave p vs p alone.
Haha, we're getting to the point of ridiculousness where Protoss themselves know they have an easier time, but don't want to hear Terran complaints over the beautiful sound of their laser beams vaporizing everything.
You can see the biggest problem with SC2 in this thread.
PO change is announced, first reaction is negative. Everyone says that's not what should be done to help PvT and it won't change shit in PvZ. So it's not helping these match-ups.
Now people come in and say it's also bad in PvP? Omg what a bunch of whiners, the change was needed, protoss needs to stfu.
The biggest problem with SC2 is that we thrive conflict. If a terran says something, there will be protoss to analyze what has been said and say it's wrong because a terran said it. If a protoss says something, the reverse will occur. We have people saying the EXACT SAME THING in this thread but insulting each other over it because they don't happen to say it from the same viewpoint. It's really sad.
That's the difference between a barbarism and a neologism: no difference at all, but one is good and one is evil.
On January 04 2014 03:30 Nebuchad wrote: You can see the biggest problem with SC2 in this thread.
PO change is announced, first reaction is negative. Everyone says that's not what should be done to help PvT and it won't change shit in PvZ. So it's not helping these match-ups.
Poll: Photon Overcharge Change
Thumbs Up (1175)
78%
Thumbs Down (282)
19%
Neutral (49)
3%
1506 total votes
Your vote: Photon Overcharge Change
(Vote): Thumbs Up (Vote): Thumbs Down (Vote): Neutral
On January 04 2014 03:30 Nebuchad wrote: You can see the biggest problem with SC2 in this thread.
PO change is announced, first reaction is negative. Everyone says that's not what should be done to help PvT and it won't change shit in PvZ. So it's not helping these match-ups.
[spoiler=Poll]
Poll: Photon Overcharge Change
Thumbs Up (1175)
78%
Thumbs Down (282)
19%
Neutral (49)
3%
1506 total votes
Your vote: Photon Overcharge Change
(Vote): Thumbs Up (Vote): Thumbs Down (Vote): Neutral
mhh?
Read the thread?
Your first reaction was "meh", as I recall. All the little côterie of terrans who keep writing the same post were negative about it, from snusmum to imperialfist. Avilo was pretty adamant about it, he made a long post and had an insufferable streaming session.
I wonder, do koreans have a TL like site where they whine about balance everyday or is it just us non-koreans that whine all day about patches and race imbalance? On topic: "if something is imbalanced in the game we just increase the speed" Blizz balancing 101. Enjoy Speedcraft 2.
On January 04 2014 03:30 Nebuchad wrote: You can see the biggest problem with SC2 in this thread.
PO change is announced, first reaction is negative. Everyone says that's not what should be done to help PvT and it won't change shit in PvZ. So it's not helping these match-ups.
[spoiler=Poll]
Poll: Photon Overcharge Change
Thumbs Up (1175)
78%
Thumbs Down (282)
19%
Neutral (49)
3%
1506 total votes
Your vote: Photon Overcharge Change
(Vote): Thumbs Up (Vote): Thumbs Down (Vote): Neutral
mhh?
Read the thread?
Your first reaction was "meh", as I recall.
These kind of threads have always been a minority fighting against a minority.
My first reaction was :
Giving a 40s earlier timing in TvP might help. Meh.
My "Meh" is more of a "Will see" than a "I doubt it". Anyway it's already a good thing that Blizzard realizes that the MSC has a problem. I was more for an energy based nerf, like starting with 0 energy, or PC costing 125 energy to cast. Even a Vision nerf. But it's still a 1st step and AFAIK, there isn't even a balance map at the moment, everything can change.
Such a rigged poll, when the change doesn't affect p vs z, but what zerg wouldn't take 20 secs less of PO, and, to a lesser extent, p vs t is the same way. But, half of the toss population, if not more, is trying to play like maxblack, and this nerf is a huge buff to them...
I don't know how a game can be taken seriously, when such brainless strategies are so overpowering. A strategy game? One without much depth, apparently. Becoming GM has become a choice. Not a matter of skill or strategic ability. It's sad.
On January 04 2014 03:42 vidium wrote: I wonder, do koreans have a TL like site where they whine about balance everyday or is it just us non-koreans that whine all day about patches and race imbalance? On topic: "if something is imbalanced in the game we just increase the speed" Blizz balancing 101. Enjoy Speedcraft 2.
Clearly you don't watch many streams or listen to commentary during matches very well. The Koreans are just as vocal about SC2 balance as we are.
TvP has been complained about a TON over the last few weeks since the Oracle buff which makes a lot of sense when you consider how much more Korean Protoss players can do with an easier to micro Oracle than Western players can.
On January 04 2014 03:43 playa wrote: Such a rigged poll, when the change doesn't effect p vs z, but what zerg wouldn't take 20 secs less of PO, and, to a lesser extent, p vs t is the same way. But, half of the toss population, if not more, is trying to play like maxblack, and this nerf is a huge buff to them...
I don't know how a game can be taken seriously, when such brainless strategies are so overpowering. A strategy game? One without much depth, apparently. Becoming GM has become a choice. Not a matter of skill. It's sad.
Dude, we were seeing macro games PvP at the end of WoL already, don't be such dramatic about it, 20s isn't that much of a nerf, you'll just to be a bit more cautious about casting the overcharge but 40s is still huge. At worst it's like 1 cycle of production less, which isn't catastrophic if he decided to allin you anyway.
Who was the korean terran who tweeted "protoss is a fraud" or something to that effect?
Trust me, Korean terrans loathe PvT as much as foreigners, they are just good enough to actually win. That doesn't mean they are happy with the state of the match up.
-Make it so the MSC has 175 max energy OR overcharge requires 125 energy. This will remove the ability of Toss to just throw the overcharge on both nexuses. Voila, Terran can be remotely aggressive early in TvP, and PvP is untouched.
-Give the tanks an upgrade for EMP shells. The problem with TvP mech is that Immortals/Archons absolutely WRECK an infinite amount of tanks. I'm all for units that counter another unit, but the Immortal literally nullifies Tanks. Rather than buffing tanks vs. armored units [Marauders, Roaches, and Stalkers(Immortals ignore this due to their hardened shield)], it will target the main problem (TvP mech) without touching a fantastic balance in TvT (mech v bio/tank or bio) and TvZ.
On January 04 2014 03:42 vidium wrote: I wonder, do koreans have a TL like site where they whine about balance everyday or is it just us non-koreans that whine all day about patches and race imbalance? On topic: "if something is imbalanced in the game we just increase the speed" Blizz balancing 101. Enjoy Speedcraft 2.
Remember Bomber having a huge "Protoss OP, Nerf Oracle" behind him when he streamed ? Taeja saying in an interview "Blizzard please don't nerf terran anymore". That's how koreans see the game as well.
uh, late to the party. I think burrow speed is fine now, but nothing against tweaking it further. It's a sideoption anyways.
Photon overcharge to 40 sounds like a good change, would still love to see a range-1 on it, if just for the sake that the siege weapon siege tank has a greater range than the static defense PO.
Proposed Tank change:
Tank damage from 35(+15vs armored) to 50(+20vs armored)
Splash damage percentages changed: 100% damage area around the main target changed to 70% damage (=from 35+15vs armored to 35+14vs armored) 50% area changed to 35% (=from 17.5+7.5vs armored to 17.5+7vs armored) 25% area changed to 17.5% (=from 8.75+3.75vs armored to 8.75+3.5vs armored)
Upgrade bonus changed from 3(+2vs armored) to 5(+2vs armored)
Reasoning: Sieged Tank dps is very low currently: 12.5 + 5.4 vs armored. When the opponents are clumped and can be sniped with few tankshots this is OK, because the burst does a lot of work. But if you fight spread/big, high HP targets (Archon, Ultralisk, Colossus charging zealots, Hellbats) the tank damage isn't enough to outright kill them and since the damage over time (dps) is so low, tanks tend to underperform against such units. This damage/dps buff greatly helps tanks in its role to combat most other ground units. Meanwhile, the tanks splash stays the same, keeping it similarily strong against unit compositions such as MMM, roach/hydra, ling/bling.
On January 04 2014 03:43 playa wrote: Such a rigged poll, when the change doesn't effect p vs z, but what zerg wouldn't take 20 secs less of PO, and, to a lesser extent, p vs t is the same way. But, half of the toss population, if not more, is trying to play like maxblack, and this nerf is a huge buff to them...
I don't know how a game can be taken seriously, when such brainless strategies are so overpowering. A strategy game? One without much depth, apparently. Becoming GM has become a choice. Not a matter of skill. It's sad.
Dude, we were seeing macro games PvP at the end of WoL already, don't be such dramatic about it, 20s isn't that much of a nerf, you'll just to be a bit more cautious about casting the overcharge but 40s is still huge. At worst it's like 1 cycle of production less, which isn't catastrophic if he decided to allin you anyway.
Don't act like you know anything about p vs p, when you obviously don't.
That stupid protoss OP whine coming from wooden league retards just pissing me off. Don't even want to comment that nonsense. Terran dominating everything for 2 years was ok. But suddenly after 8 months of HoTs with no certain reason Protoss became op as shit. No balance changes (don't tell me about oracles), no anything, but protoss became OP. Yes, that totally makes sense. But what's more stupid is that proposed PO change. For 8 months PO was ok, but now it certainly should be nerfed. OMG. It looks more like Blizzard is just desperate to show everyone they read that noob feedback and actually take measures. Cause that change makes 0 sense and won't solve Terran problems at all.
On January 04 2014 03:43 playa wrote: Such a rigged poll, when the change doesn't effect p vs z, but what zerg wouldn't take 20 secs less of PO, and, to a lesser extent, p vs t is the same way. But, half of the toss population, if not more, is trying to play like maxblack, and this nerf is a huge buff to them...
I don't know how a game can be taken seriously, when such brainless strategies are so overpowering. A strategy game? One without much depth, apparently. Becoming GM has become a choice. Not a matter of skill. It's sad.
Dude, we were seeing macro games PvP at the end of WoL already, don't be such dramatic about it, 20s isn't that much of a nerf, you'll just to be a bit more cautious about casting the overcharge but 40s is still huge. At worst it's like 1 cycle of production less, which isn't catastrophic if he decided to allin you anyway.
Don't act like you know anything about p vs p, when you obviously don't.
Don't act like you know anything about the game, when you obviously don't.
See, easy to act like an ass. Eveything you have ever said since months about balance was flawed as fuck, still i'm not talking like an ass. I watch enough pro-games and play enough the game to know how PvP works, thank you for nothing.
On January 04 2014 03:43 playa wrote: Such a rigged poll, when the change doesn't effect p vs z, but what zerg wouldn't take 20 secs less of PO, and, to a lesser extent, p vs t is the same way. But, half of the toss population, if not more, is trying to play like maxblack, and this nerf is a huge buff to them...
I don't know how a game can be taken seriously, when such brainless strategies are so overpowering. A strategy game? One without much depth, apparently. Becoming GM has become a choice. Not a matter of skill. It's sad.
Dude, we were seeing macro games PvP at the end of WoL already, don't be such dramatic about it, 20s isn't that much of a nerf, you'll just to be a bit more cautious about casting the overcharge but 40s is still huge. At worst it's like 1 cycle of production less, which isn't catastrophic if he decided to allin you anyway.
Don't act like you know anything about p vs p, when you obviously don't.
Don't act like you know anything about the game, when you obviously don't.
See, easy to act like an ass. Eveything you have ever said since months about balance was flawed as fuck, still i'm not talking like an ass. I watch enough pro-games and play enough the game to know how PvP works, thank you for nothing.
Really, are you playing against pro gamers in p vs p or even playing any, period? O you saw a pro playing once. Good for you, champ.
On January 04 2014 03:43 playa wrote: Such a rigged poll, when the change doesn't effect p vs z, but what zerg wouldn't take 20 secs less of PO, and, to a lesser extent, p vs t is the same way. But, half of the toss population, if not more, is trying to play like maxblack, and this nerf is a huge buff to them...
I don't know how a game can be taken seriously, when such brainless strategies are so overpowering. A strategy game? One without much depth, apparently. Becoming GM has become a choice. Not a matter of skill. It's sad.
Dude, we were seeing macro games PvP at the end of WoL already, don't be such dramatic about it, 20s isn't that much of a nerf, you'll just to be a bit more cautious about casting the overcharge but 40s is still huge. At worst it's like 1 cycle of production less, which isn't catastrophic if he decided to allin you anyway.
Don't act like you know anything about p vs p, when you obviously don't.
Don't act like you know anything about the game, when you obviously don't.
See, easy to act like an ass. Eveything you have ever said since months about balance was flawed as fuck, still i'm not talking like an ass. I watch enough pro-games and play enough the game to know how PvP works, thank you for nothing.
Really, are you playing against pro gamers in p vs p or even playing any, period? O you saw a pro playing once. Good for you, champ.
On January 04 2014 03:43 playa wrote: Such a rigged poll, when the change doesn't effect p vs z, but what zerg wouldn't take 20 secs less of PO, and, to a lesser extent, p vs t is the same way. But, half of the toss population, if not more, is trying to play like maxblack, and this nerf is a huge buff to them...
I don't know how a game can be taken seriously, when such brainless strategies are so overpowering. A strategy game? One without much depth, apparently. Becoming GM has become a choice. Not a matter of skill. It's sad.
Dude, we were seeing macro games PvP at the end of WoL already, don't be such dramatic about it, 20s isn't that much of a nerf, you'll just to be a bit more cautious about casting the overcharge but 40s is still huge. At worst it's like 1 cycle of production less, which isn't catastrophic if he decided to allin you anyway.
Don't act like you know anything about p vs p, when you obviously don't.
Don't act like you know anything about the game, when you obviously don't.
See, easy to act like an ass. Eveything you have ever said since months about balance was flawed as fuck, still i'm not talking like an ass. I watch enough pro-games and play enough the game to know how PvP works, thank you for nothing.
Really, are you playing against pro gamers in p vs p or even playing any, period? O you saw a pro playing once. Good for you, champ.
Why are you talking like this?
If you want to prove your point, take your time and explain it. NonY and hushang did that to me when I said that I didn't think it mattered much a few hours ago, and now I'm convinced. Do you ever expect him to believe you're right when you talk to him like that? If you don't want to prove your point, then just go away. You're not helping anything.
On January 04 2014 03:43 playa wrote: Such a rigged poll, when the change doesn't effect p vs z, but what zerg wouldn't take 20 secs less of PO, and, to a lesser extent, p vs t is the same way. But, half of the toss population, if not more, is trying to play like maxblack, and this nerf is a huge buff to them...
I don't know how a game can be taken seriously, when such brainless strategies are so overpowering. A strategy game? One without much depth, apparently. Becoming GM has become a choice. Not a matter of skill. It's sad.
Dude, we were seeing macro games PvP at the end of WoL already, don't be such dramatic about it, 20s isn't that much of a nerf, you'll just to be a bit more cautious about casting the overcharge but 40s is still huge. At worst it's like 1 cycle of production less, which isn't catastrophic if he decided to allin you anyway.
Don't act like you know anything about p vs p, when you obviously don't.
Don't act like you know anything about the game, when you obviously don't.
See, easy to act like an ass. Eveything you have ever said since months about balance was flawed as fuck, still i'm not talking like an ass. I watch enough pro-games and play enough the game to know how PvP works, thank you for nothing.
Really, are you playing against pro gamers in p vs p or even playing any, period? O you saw a pro playing once. Good for you, champ.
Why are you talking like this?
If you want to prove your point, take your time and explain it. NonY and hushang did that to me when I said that I didn't think it mattered much a few hours ago, and now I'm convinced. Do you ever expect him to believe you're right when you talk to him like that? If you don't want to prove your point, then just go away. You're not helping anything.
If players like Nony can say the same thing, yet players like whoever faust is can come in and spout "it's no big deal guys. I've watched a pro game before," he's lucky anyone acknowledges his existence, let alone takes the time to explain it to him.
I've watched some t vs t games before, next on my agenda is to talk about t vs t changes... who does that?
Ok folks, pvp was different in WOL because Protoss had no early flying units to provide high ground vision. That's not true in hots. We can all be pretty sure that the 20 second nerf will make PVP a hot mess for a while. But we will figure it out, as it always does.
On January 04 2014 03:43 playa wrote: Such a rigged poll, when the change doesn't effect p vs z, but what zerg wouldn't take 20 secs less of PO, and, to a lesser extent, p vs t is the same way. But, half of the toss population, if not more, is trying to play like maxblack, and this nerf is a huge buff to them...
I don't know how a game can be taken seriously, when such brainless strategies are so overpowering. A strategy game? One without much depth, apparently. Becoming GM has become a choice. Not a matter of skill. It's sad.
Dude, we were seeing macro games PvP at the end of WoL already, don't be such dramatic about it, 20s isn't that much of a nerf, you'll just to be a bit more cautious about casting the overcharge but 40s is still huge. At worst it's like 1 cycle of production less, which isn't catastrophic if he decided to allin you anyway.
Don't act like you know anything about p vs p, when you obviously don't.
Don't act like you know anything about the game, when you obviously don't.
See, easy to act like an ass. Eveything you have ever said since months about balance was flawed as fuck, still i'm not talking like an ass. I watch enough pro-games and play enough the game to know how PvP works, thank you for nothing.
Really, are you playing against pro gamers in p vs p or even playing any, period? O you saw a pro playing once. Good for you, champ.
Why are you talking like this?
If you want to prove your point, take your time and explain it. NonY and hushang did that to me when I said that I didn't think it mattered much a few hours ago, and now I'm convinced. Do you ever expect him to believe you're right when you talk to him like that? If you don't want to prove your point, then just go away. You're not helping anything.
If players like Nony can say the same thing, yet players like whoever faust is can come in and spout "it's no big deal guys. I've watch a pro game before," he's lucky anyone acknowledges his existence, let alone takes the time to explain it to him.
I've watched some t vs t games before, next on my agenda is to talk about t vs t changes... who does that?
I am top50 master EU terran (of all master in europe, not of my league). and I played protoss at a midmaster level last season, playing like a cheap monkey doing retarded build so I had quite the time to see whether 20s of overcharge would change something or not against allin. But meh, since you are obviously the most skilled protoss player in this thread, I have to aknowlege your superiority.
Edit : I also watch all pro league games and every majors tournaments these last 3 years or so, so yeah, I know the game quite a bit.
On January 04 2014 03:43 playa wrote: Such a rigged poll, when the change doesn't effect p vs z, but what zerg wouldn't take 20 secs less of PO, and, to a lesser extent, p vs t is the same way. But, half of the toss population, if not more, is trying to play like maxblack, and this nerf is a huge buff to them...
I don't know how a game can be taken seriously, when such brainless strategies are so overpowering. A strategy game? One without much depth, apparently. Becoming GM has become a choice. Not a matter of skill. It's sad.
Dude, we were seeing macro games PvP at the end of WoL already, don't be such dramatic about it, 20s isn't that much of a nerf, you'll just to be a bit more cautious about casting the overcharge but 40s is still huge. At worst it's like 1 cycle of production less, which isn't catastrophic if he decided to allin you anyway.
Don't act like you know anything about p vs p, when you obviously don't.
Don't act like you know anything about the game, when you obviously don't.
See, easy to act like an ass. Eveything you have ever said since months about balance was flawed as fuck, still i'm not talking like an ass. I watch enough pro-games and play enough the game to know how PvP works, thank you for nothing.
Really, are you playing against pro gamers in p vs p or even playing any, period? O you saw a pro playing once. Good for you, champ.
Why are you talking like this?
If you want to prove your point, take your time and explain it. NonY and hushang did that to me when I said that I didn't think it mattered much a few hours ago, and now I'm convinced. Do you ever expect him to believe you're right when you talk to him like that? If you don't want to prove your point, then just go away. You're not helping anything.
If players like Nony can say the same thing, yet players like whoever faust is can come in and spout "it's no big deal guys. I've watched a pro game before," he's lucky anyone acknowledges his existence, let alone takes the time to explain it to him.
I've watched some t vs t games before, next on my agenda is to talk about t vs t changes... who does that?
You will find that it takes a lot more time to insult and belittle people than it takes to actually explain things to them in a civil way. If you have time for the former, you have time for the latter.
On January 04 2014 03:52 insitelol wrote: That stupid protoss OP whine coming from wooden league retards just pissing me off. Don't even want to comment that nonsense. Terran dominating everything for 2 years was ok. But suddenly after 8 months of HoTs with no certain reason Protoss became op as shit. No balance changes (don't tell me about oracles), no anything, but protoss became OP. Yes, that totally makes sense. But what's more stupid is that proposed PO change. For 8 months PO was ok, but now it certainly should be nerfed. OMG. It looks more like Blizzard is just desperate to show everyone they read that noob feedback and actually take measures. Cause that change makes 0 sense and won't solve Terran problems at all.
U mad bro? LOL
On January 04 2014 03:50 Big J wrote:
Proposed Tank change:
Tank damage from 35(+15vs armored) to 50(+20vs armored)
Splash damage percentages changed: 100% damage area around the main target changed to 70% damage (=from 35+15vs armored to 35+14vs armored) 50% area changed to 35% (=from 17.5+7.5vs armored to 17.5+7vs armored) 25% area changed to 17.5% (=from 8.75+3.75vs armored to 8.75+3.5vs armored)
Upgrade bonus changed from 3(+2vs armored) to 5(+2vs armored)
Reasoning: Sieged Tank dps is very low currently: 12.5 + 5.4 vs armored. When the opponents are clumped and can be sniped with few tankshots this is OK, because the burst does a lot of work. But if you fight spread/big, high HP targets (Archon, Ultralisk, Colossus charging zealots, Hellbats) the tank damage isn't enough to outright kill them and since the damage over time (dps) is so low, tanks tend to underperform against such units. This damage/dps buff greatly helps tanks in its role to combat most other ground units. Meanwhile, the tanks splash stays the same, keeping it similarily strong against unit compositions such as MMM, roach/hydra, ling/bling.
I like it. Maybe make a thread on bnet forums.
TBH though, i don't think any of the suggestions matter. Blizzard almost never takes feedback like this. They will most likely remove the energy UP from the Ghost and buff both mech and bio in the process. Mostly bio.
I would personally start with putting every spell on the MSC at 125 energy. Each of those spells are potentially game changing, so you shouldn't be able to carelessy cast 2 of them in a row. Like, wtf, blanketting the battlefield with huge timewarp zones which render units slower than thors doesn't sound very appealing. Neither does making your 2 bases impenetrable with two huge-ass cannons. Well, I'm sure it appeals to 50% of GM players, and that's probably enough for Blizzard, half the players isn't so bad.
On January 04 2014 03:52 insitelol wrote: That stupid protoss OP whine coming from wooden league retards just pissing me off. Don't even want to comment that nonsense. Terran dominating everything for 2 years was ok. But suddenly after 8 months of HoTs with no certain reason Protoss became op as shit. No balance changes (don't tell me about oracles), no anything, but protoss became OP. Yes, that totally makes sense. But what's more stupid is that proposed PO change. For 8 months PO was ok, but now it certainly should be nerfed. OMG. It looks more like Blizzard is just desperate to show everyone they read that noob feedback and actually take measures. Cause that change makes 0 sense and won't solve Terran problems at all.
Tank damage from 35(+15vs armored) to 50(+20vs armored)
Splash damage percentages changed: 100% damage area around the main target changed to 70% damage (=from 35+15vs armored to 35+14vs armored) 50% area changed to 35% (=from 17.5+7.5vs armored to 17.5+7vs armored) 25% area changed to 17.5% (=from 8.75+3.75vs armored to 8.75+3.5vs armored)
Upgrade bonus changed from 3(+2vs armored) to 5(+2vs armored)
Reasoning: Sieged Tank dps is very low currently: 12.5 + 5.4 vs armored. When the opponents are clumped and can be sniped with few tankshots this is OK, because the burst does a lot of work. But if you fight spread/big, high HP targets (Archon, Ultralisk, Colossus charging zealots, Hellbats) the tank damage isn't enough to outright kill them and since the damage over time (dps) is so low, tanks tend to underperform against such units. This damage/dps buff greatly helps tanks in its role to combat most other ground units. Meanwhile, the tanks splash stays the same, keeping it similarily strong against unit compositions such as MMM, roach/hydra, ling/bling.
I like it. Maybe make a thread on bnet forums.
TBH though, i don't think any of the suggestions matter. Blizzard almost never takes feedback like this. They will most likely remove the energy UP from the Ghost and buff both mech and bio in the process. Mostly bio.
Yeah. But I think +vs armored isn't as bad either, since it is a buff against some of the critical units as well (mostly lategame TvZ using tanks as counter to Ultralisks with biomech, against Colossi and against blink stalker allins). But it doesn't adress archons and zealots and runs the risk of completely destroying roach- and marauderplay (and thereby bioplay) against tanks.
I think they should just add maelstrom rounds from the campaign. Give tanks a straight up single target damage buff in siege mode (with an armory level research). This would allow tanks a chance to reenter the game when Ultras / Archons / Collusus start running around.
I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
On January 04 2014 04:35 Ravomat wrote: I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
A band aid that has the ability to heal braincancer, quite useful indeed.
On January 04 2014 04:09 ZenithM wrote: I would personally start with putting every spell on the MSC at 125 energy. Each of those spells are potentially game changing, so you shouldn't be able to carelessy cast 2 of them in a row. Like, wtf, blanketting the battlefield with huge timewarp zones which render units slower than thors doesn't sound very appealing. Neither does making your 2 bases impenetrable with two huge-ass cannons. Well, I'm sure it appeals to 50% of GM players, and that's probably enough for Blizzard, half the players isn't so bad.
I'm against another patch. But, then I've been against all the patches since the release of HOTS (except for the Hellbat patch - and, even that, I am not sure about). I am just tired of Blizzard's incessant fiddling with the game. It is exhausting. It is also a incentive to players to just whine and complain. And god, we do that a lot. So much whine in the recent past.
Anyway, I can well see a case for two tweaks to Protoss play. One, the defensive capability of the PO. Initially I had little trouble in a reduction in duration to say 45 seconds. But, as others have pointed out this may overly affect PvP play (still finding its feet in a post Oracle patch world). If so, a reduction in the range and an increase in energy cost to 125 might be better (starting energy at 75 perhaps?). This will prevent the dual activation of PO at two Nexus. It will also mean that if a Recall is forced to a Protoss army (due to say a counter-attack in the main), then it is not as easy to defend. Finally, it may be good to alter the threat priority of the Nexus. Players will have to choose if they focus the Nexus or probes or whatever.
(However, in response, I would like to see the PO scale with ground weapon upgrades. Say +2, so it remains more viable.)
Secondly, tweak the offensive capability of MSC Time Warp (interestingly the spell appears to have been intended as a defensive spell. It is one more example of players making use of abilities in ways perhaps not originally intended). I don't like the spell much. I never have. Certainly, I think if it affects enemy ground units then it should affect friendly ground units too. This may be a change worth pursuing. The other is to also make it a cheap researchable ability at cybercore.
I do not believe Roach changes are warranted. Blizzard should not have the primary voice in what goes on and develops in Starcraft. I don't give a damn if they think it is "cool". Enough fiddling with the game in the name of "cool". Neither do I think any more buffs to Mech are warranted (certainly not without nerfs to Bio). So, I hope only the MSC/PO nerf goes ahead.
After that, I hope, Blizzard leave the damn game alone for at least 6 months. Let the players take it from there.
On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote: I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one.
I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days.
On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one.
I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days.
On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground.
I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go.
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one.
I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days.
On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground.
I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go.
Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged.
The nerf on PO is a good start. There's no reason to do anything drastic right now. This will give more attacking windows against Protoss.
Buffing roach burrow speed because they just like the ability seems like a terrible idea.
Siege tanks do not need buffs. The suggestions for "EMP Shells" on tanks are silly. Immortals counter tanks, same as colossi counter marines. But nobody is asking for marines to do +dmg vs armored and massive.
Any ghost buff would completely break TvP in favor of the Terran.
Also this is a balance test map. Nothing is final. Knowing Blizz patch 2.1 will discard all of these changes, and instead buff oracle move speed.
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one.
I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days.
On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground.
I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go.
Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged.
It's more against Terran than Zerg. Sentries are a gas intensive investment into which delays Protoss tech significantly. Once Terran gets Stim and/or Medivacs, Protoss needs their high tech (Colossus and/or Templar) or Protoss dies.
On January 04 2014 05:03 ricecake wrote: Siege tanks do not need buffs. The suggestions for "EMP Shells" on tanks are silly. Immortals counter tanks, same as colossi counter marines. But nobody is asking for marines to do +dmg vs armored and massive.
That's because marines are already viable despite having a counter.
This isn't rock paper scissors. All units have counters but when the counter is so strong that the unit isn't worth building in the first place, theres a problem. Or in the case of TvP a whole techpath is rendered unplayable thanks to the immortal.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Theorycrafting, fun. Pretending to do math, even better.
Can you actually point out pro games where a terran goes mech and beats a protoss convincingly?
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote: I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
A meching Terran is not like bio and can go dual armory (like ebay) and expect to survive any early push. One can only sustain two armories if they are only producing out of one factory - in which case it is extremely risky PvT. Therefore, any meching Terran will always be behind in upgrades.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote: I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this.
On January 04 2014 04:35 Ravomat wrote: I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
You just posted all the reason why it needs to be changed. We have no timings or all ins to hit with the current overcharge. Delaying it by 25 energy will make you guys not go double tech and actually scout for the timings and all ins.
On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote: I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this.
I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx )
On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote: I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this.
I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx )
It's is pretty dumb. Who cares about upgrades and what is fee or not free? I mean, Zerg has the most reason to bitch if we want to talk about split upgrades. But who cares?
At the end of the day, blizzard is going to keep doing little, non-game destroying buffs to mech until it's viable.
On January 04 2014 04:35 Ravomat wrote: I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
You just posted all the reason why it needs to be changed. We have no timings or all ins to hit with the current overcharge. Delaying it by 25 energy will make you guys not go double tech and actually scout for the timings and all ins.
This would utterly neuter the spell. What would you think about the usefulness of a spell that is supposed to help defend early aggression but doesn't? Is an energy cost increase all you can come up with?
Also I'm pretty sure you can punish a Protoss that is teching too heavily, just ask Select.
I don't understand how building the energy upgrade into the Ghost for easier EMP access would be a buff to mech in particular. If anything it sounds to me like it would help bio because storm is easier to deal with.
On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote: I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this.
I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx )
Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields) is 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous.
I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke.
When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air.
Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran. That is if they actually buff the tank to a respectable level.
On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote: I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this.
I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx )
Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields). 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous.
I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke.
When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air.
Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran.
Are you for real this biased ? Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as terran : 2100/2100 Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as protoss : 2100/2100 I don't count building.
You are really getting ridiculous and look more and more like a total idiot. Anyway I don't know why I even try to argue with you, because saying skyterran > skyprotoss is already being totally out of knowledge of the game.
On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote: I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this.
I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx )
Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields). 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous.
I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke.
When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air.
Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran.
Are you for real this biased ? Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as terran : 2100/2100 Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as protoss : 2100/2100 I don't count building.
You are really getting ridiculous and look more and more like a total idiot.
His complaint is that he cannot build 3-3 carriers without actually using cybernetics core for anything but warp gates.
On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote: I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this.
I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx )
Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields). 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous.
I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke.
When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air.
Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran.
Are you for real this biased ? Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as terran : 2100/2100 Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as protoss : 2100/2100 I don't count building.
You are really getting ridiculous and look more and more like a total idiot.
His complaint is that he cannot build 3-3 carriers without actually using cybernetics core for anything but warp gates.
This is fucking astounding. The terran player that is trying to lecture pros, apparently, on p vs p, doesn't even know the costs of upgrades for mech? Your upgrades were combined. Wtf are you talking about? The price wasn't reflected in this merging of upgrades. They gave you air upgrades for free. It's no where near 2100/2100 to have fully upgraded mech. And where are you getting 2100/2100 for 3/3 air for toss?
This is why explaining things to people like this is a waste of time.
On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote: I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this.
I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx )
Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields). 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous.
I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke.
When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air.
Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran.
Are you for real this biased ? Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as terran : 2100/2100 Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as protoss : 2100/2100 I don't count building.
You are really getting ridiculous and look more and more like a total idiot.
His complaint is that he cannot build 3-3 carriers without actually using cybernetics core for anything but warp gates.
This is fucking astounding. The terran player that is trying to lecture pros, apparently, on p vs p, doesn't even know the costs of upgrades for mech? Your upgrades were combined. Wtf are you talking about? The price wasn't reflected in this merging of upgrades. They gave you air upgrades for free. It's no where near 2100/2100 to have fully upgraded mech. And where are you getting 2100/2100 for 3/3 air for toss?
This is why explaining things to people like this is a waste of time.
Wtf are you talking about? Mech upgrades that are combined in theory but never come into play in actual pro level games?
Trying to reason with people as biased as you, thats the waste of time.
Ok, I am going to talk only about Zerg matchups. Photon overcharge won't change almost anything so I don't care.It's not like it will suddenly save me from this ridiculous void ray colossi storm bullshit.
Roach burrow movement. Sure, why not. It will affect only ZvP obviously because you will be able to run below forcefields faster.
Buff mech... Buff mech? Buff mech??!!!!! BUFF MECH?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARE U KIDDING ME?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Playing vs. these absolutely atrocious unskilled slow pricks with 100 apm camping for fucking 50 minutes with their ravens without doing shit is the most frustrating thing I have experienced in my gaming career. It makes me wanna vommit before I kill myself. It makes me wanna stop playing this game. It's the most unfair shit ever where total retard like goody can beat godly superskilled beasts... And... What does David Kimchi say? Let's buff it! Holy shit he is a retard.
I'lll stop arguing with playa, since he considers himself a pro. (Hell, he said it himself).
On January 04 2014 07:19 SpeedyBozar wrote: Ok, I am going to talk only about Zerg matchups. Photon overcharge won't change almost anything so I don't care.It's not like it will suddenly save me from this ridiculous void ray colossi storm bullshit.
Roach burrow movement. Sure, why not. It will affect only ZvP obviously because you will be able to run below forcefields faster.
Buff mech... Buff mech? Buff mech??!!!!! BUFF MECH?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARE U KIDDING ME?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Playing vs. these absolutely atrocious unskilled slow pricks with 100 apm camping for fucking 50 minutes with their ravens without doing shit is the most frustrating thing I have experienced in my gaming career. It makes me wanna vommit before I kill myself. It makes me wanna stop playing this game. It's the most unfair shit ever where total retard like goody can beat godly superskilled beasts... And... What does David Kimchi say? Let's buff it! Holy shit he is a retard.
I think Blizzard want to buff mech in the TvP way, as they said, by tweaking EMP or so, but It shouldn't change much in TvZ I think. Hell, even if they buffed the tank, that wouldn't change anything in TvZ since the main problem is lategame raven/viking compo if you don't know how to deal with it.
On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote: I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this.
I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx )
Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields). 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous.
I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke.
When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air.
Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran.
Are you for real this biased ? Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as terran : 2100/2100 Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as protoss : 2100/2100 I don't count building.
You are really getting ridiculous and look more and more like a total idiot.
His complaint is that he cannot build 3-3 carriers without actually using cybernetics core for anything but warp gates.
This is fucking astounding. The terran player that is trying to lecture pros, apparently, on p vs p, doesn't even know the costs of upgrades for mech? Your upgrades were combined. Wtf are you talking about? The price wasn't reflected in this merging of upgrades. They gave you air upgrades for free. It's no where near 2100/2100 to have fully upgraded mech. And where are you getting 2100/2100 for 3/3 air for toss?
This is why explaining things to people like this is a waste of time.
Wtf are you talking about? Mech upgrades that are combined in theory but never come into play in actual pro level games?
Trying to reason with people as biased as you, thats the waste of time.
You guys are some kinda dense. It's a fucking theory now that terran upgrades are merged? That's news to me. I thought it was a fact. Well, if your goal is for mech to become more viable and for the tank to be buffed, then this "theory" is going to get in the way of the reality of the situation.
You're talking to someone that wants to see terran get buffed because I think you guys need to play an imbalanced race to quit whining 24/7. I don't think foreigners have shown any capability of playing bio at the level needed, so I'd love to see mech get buffed so foreigners can play on their tricycles and win some games. I'm simply telling you, if you want the tank to get buffed like I do, then this theory is going to be a hindrance and alterations will have to be made.
A big part of why this never comes into play, in the first place, is because it's impossible to battle 3-3 in the air with 1-1, tops... thus, you kinda don't see it much. Then again, that's probably hard to understand for a terran player.
And, ofc, the fact that the top terran players are Koreans and can actually win games with bio.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this.
I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx )
Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields). 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous.
I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke.
When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air.
Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran.
Are you for real this biased ? Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as terran : 2100/2100 Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as protoss : 2100/2100 I don't count building.
You are really getting ridiculous and look more and more like a total idiot.
His complaint is that he cannot build 3-3 carriers without actually using cybernetics core for anything but warp gates.
This is fucking astounding. The terran player that is trying to lecture pros, apparently, on p vs p, doesn't even know the costs of upgrades for mech? Your upgrades were combined. Wtf are you talking about? The price wasn't reflected in this merging of upgrades. They gave you air upgrades for free. It's no where near 2100/2100 to have fully upgraded mech. And where are you getting 2100/2100 for 3/3 air for toss?
This is why explaining things to people like this is a waste of time.
Wtf are you talking about? Mech upgrades that are combined in theory but never come into play in actual pro level games?
Trying to reason with people as biased as you, thats the waste of time.
You guys are some kinda dense. It's a fucking theory now that terran upgrades are merged? That's news to me. I thought it was a fact. Well, if your goal is for mech to become more viable and for the tank to be buffed, then this "theory" is going to get in the way of the reality of the situation.
You're talking to someone that wants to see terran get buffed because I think you guys need to play an imbalanced race to quit whining 24/7. I don't think foreigners have shown any capability of playing bio at the level needed, so I'd love to see mech get buffed so foreigners can play on their tricycles and win some games. I'm simply telling you, if you want the tank to get buffed like I do, then this theory is going to be a hindrance and alterations will have to be made.
A big part of why this never comes into play, in the first place, is because it's impossible to battle 3-3 in the air with 1-1, tops... thus, you kinda don't see it much. Then again, that's probably hard to understand for a terran player.
And, ofc, the fact that the top terran players are Koreans and can actually win games with bio.
I'm just gonna say its fucking hilarious to see a protoss player talk down to terran foreigners wanting mech to be viable. Some people will never see the irony in their actions.
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one.
I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days.
On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground.
I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go.
Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged.
No it didn't work for years in WoL. Protoss was far and away the worst race throughout the entirety of WoL. There's no reason to destroy gateway expands in PvZ right now. They need to buff something in Terran to let them do aggression early game not nerf Protoss stuff that will harm two perfectly fine matchups
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one.
I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days.
On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground.
I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go.
Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged.
No it didn't work for years in WoL. Protoss was far and away the worst race throughout the entirety of WoL. There's no reason to destroy gateway expands in PvZ right now. They need to buff something in Terran to let them do aggression early game not nerf Protoss stuff that will harm two perfectly fine matchups
PvZ perfectly fine? Yeah ok. And MSC is still borderline OP with this change, it will just make is slightly harder to hold off every conceivable aggression with one click. If you think this will ruin PvP and PvZ and make them any worse than the pile of shit they are right now, I really don't think twenty seconds will make much of a difference.
And you greatly exaggerate how badly protoss fared in WoL. It's a much needed fix for a unit that is verging on broken.
EMP was 75 energy for Big Radius + All shields/energy Then it was 75 energy for Big Radius + 100/100 Then it was 75 energy for Small Radius + 100/100
As a mech player, ghosts are a huge investment for a small reward. Making EMP 50 energy would move its power level back up a tier without making each cast stronger.
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one.
I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days.
On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground.
I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go.
Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged.
No it didn't work for years in WoL. Protoss was far and away the worst race throughout the entirety of WoL. There's no reason to destroy gateway expands in PvZ right now. They need to buff something in Terran to let them do aggression early game not nerf Protoss stuff that will harm two perfectly fine matchups
PvZ perfectly fine? Yeah ok. And MSC is still borderline OP with this change, it will just make is slightly harder to hold off every conceivable aggression with one click. If you think this will ruin PvP and PvZ and make them any worse than the pile of shit they are right now, I really don't think twenty seconds will make much of a difference.
And you greatly exaggerate how badly protoss fared in WoL. It's a much needed fix for a unit that is verging on broken.
Yes, PvZ is perfectly fine. Recent winrates even suggest that Zerg has a slight edge, but that aside, what problem do you have in PvZ? If you want to allin in PvZ against a gateway expand, 15h16g15p @100 gas start speed, start 2queens, rally zerglings for eternity. If the opponent only relies on MsC he dies 100%, he needs a superfast wall @the natural and a sentry as well, since he is dead before he even has the energy to overcharge if he only relies on MsC and some zealot+stalker combo. Other allins? try 3hatch speedroach busts, example would be Hydra vs whoever from proleague (just the first attack). Or double hydra den rushes if he goes stargate and wants to take a third. Lots of options for zerg, you just have to be willing to learn them.
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one.
I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days.
On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground.
I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go.
Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged.
No it didn't work for years in WoL. Protoss was far and away the worst race throughout the entirety of WoL. There's no reason to destroy gateway expands in PvZ right now. They need to buff something in Terran to let them do aggression early game not nerf Protoss stuff that will harm two perfectly fine matchups
PvZ perfectly fine? Yeah ok. And MSC is still borderline OP with this change, it will just make is slightly harder to hold off every conceivable aggression with one click. If you think this will ruin PvP and PvZ and make them any worse than the pile of shit they are right now, I really don't think twenty seconds will make much of a difference.
And you greatly exaggerate how badly protoss fared in WoL. It's a much needed fix for a unit that is verging on broken.
So, all things Protoss are "a pile of shit"? Ahhh, gotcha. Thanks.
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one.
I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days.
On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground.
I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go.
Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged.
No it didn't work for years in WoL. Protoss was far and away the worst race throughout the entirety of WoL. There's no reason to destroy gateway expands in PvZ right now. They need to buff something in Terran to let them do aggression early game not nerf Protoss stuff that will harm two perfectly fine matchups
PvZ perfectly fine? Yeah ok. And MSC is still borderline OP with this change, it will just make is slightly harder to hold off every conceivable aggression with one click. If you think this will ruin PvP and PvZ and make them any worse than the pile of shit they are right now, I really don't think twenty seconds will make much of a difference.
And you greatly exaggerate how badly protoss fared in WoL. It's a much needed fix for a unit that is verging on broken.
Yes, PvZ is perfectly fine. Recent winrates even suggest that Zerg has a slight edge, but that aside, what problem do you have in PvZ? If you want to allin in PvZ against a gateway expand, 15h16g15p @100 gas start speed, start 2queens, rally zerglings for eternity. If the opponent only relies on MsC he dies 100%, he needs a superfast wall @the natural and a sentry as well, since he is dead before he even has the energy to overcharge if he only relies on MsC and some zealot+stalker combo. Other allins? try 3hatch speedroach busts, example would be Hydra vs whoever from proleague (just the first attack). Or double hydra den rushes if he goes stargate and wants to take a third. Lots of options for zerg, you just have to be willing to learn them.
I am sure it's reasonably ok balance wise, it's the gameplay that's nauseating.
I usually just do 2 base nydus or 1 base macro hatch nydus with roaches vs protoss these days. It stops forge FE, DTs and cannon rushes pretty much stone dead, which is basically all you see around low-mid diamond. Also it's hilarious.
So, all things Protoss are "a pile of shit"? Ahhh, gotcha. Thanks.
Design wise, yeah more or less. This is not the fault of any protoss player nor anything they can hope to change. It's just bad design from blizz. There have been some pretty strong objections from quite a few people to how the race plays since WoL beta.
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote: Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ.
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote: Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ.
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote: Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ.
TvT the best? Lol. PvZ and TvZ are miles better.
#stupidarguments
How is it a stupid argument? TvT has always had the most viable strategies and units in any matchup, mirror or non-mirror. It's also the matchup that emphasizes positioning and has real defender's advantage. It's the best matchup from a gameplay perspective.
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote: Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
I really want to do a count of the number of times design is used in the thread. It is the buzz word of SC2. Don't have anything interesting to say, say the words protoss and design a bunch of times and it will sound good.
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote: Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ.
TvT the best? Lol. PvZ and TvZ are miles better.
#stupidarguments
How is it a stupid argument? TvT has always had the most viable strategies and units in any matchup, mirror or non-mirror. It's also the matchup that emphasizes positioning and has real defender's advantage. It's the best matchup from a gameplay perspective.
Argueing what match up people think is the best is like arguing about taste in beer. Sure, you can get all scientific on what is the best beer, but that's a fucking stupid discussion. Just drink what you like.
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote: Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
yes? protoss has the most abysmally-designed units. pretty much all they have that rewards micro is phoenix play (which non-protoss players love to watch) and blink play (which transitions into deathballs anyway). presuming protoss macros correctly and doesn't fail to scout a timing, the other races have to dance their armies around like lunatics to even be able to engage a protoss army that's standing still, or use gimmicks like mass muta switch. none of this requires that i think protoss is "OP," since beating them is certainly possible and viable, but the most reliable ways of doing so involve either outfoxing their tech timings or just avoiding the army altogether (drops, muta play, etc). so yes, i think having a race in an RTS that has an inherent advantage in any "straight up" fight or any game where both players are defensive is really really shitty design. i'm not asking for buffs to zerg to make it easier for me to beat protoss; but i would love changes to the game that make the matchup more dynamic, interesting and fun as a player, especially since i play the only race that's automatically all-in if it plays aggressively off less than three bases
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote: Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ.
TvT the best? Lol. PvZ and TvZ are miles better.
#stupidarguments
How is it a stupid argument? TvT has always had the most viable strategies and units in any matchup, mirror or non-mirror. It's also the matchup that emphasizes positioning and has real defender's advantage. It's the best matchup from a gameplay perspective.
It's stupid because it's personal taste. You can say TvT has a lot of strategies, you can also observe that tons of the TvTs end with a 1 or early 2base play. I'm a huge fan of strategic diversity, but I much prefer it when gameplay is kind of forced into macrogames, like in TvZ. personal taste, but series like Maru vs INnoVation bug me out, yet, such games are not rare in TvT.
For your defenders advantage, that is true for as long as it is you that has the sieged tanks in your base. Doomdrop with speedivacs and its insta-gg because suddenly you have an attacker that controls your defensive chokes.
And I don't want to say TvT is bad or something, just making clear why it is not as golden as your phrases make it sound and why my personal taste prefers ZvT.
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote: Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ.
Good match-ups are a matter of preference though. I don't think you can objectively state that one is better than the other.
As to my point regarding design, faulting Protoss design in its interactions with Zerg and Terran treat Protoss in isolation when actually it is a two way thing. Briefly, why is Protoss so dependent on AOE splash after about 9/10 minutes against T? It's because then that Terran production ramps up and stim and medivacs come into play. The Marauder destroys Stalkers and mass Marines have huge DPS. Zealots are the key basic unit but are melee units so are taking hits coming in and going out and can be kited. Charge is required otherwise, after a point, they are wasted minerals. Hence the reliance on AOE splash.
Why is the Sentry and FF so crucial against Zerg? Because of Zerg's production capabilities. This is a race that can max by 12 minutes. There is no way a Protoss holds those numbers (or takes a third on a good map) without FF and specific counters.
It's all inter-connected, IMO. But, no, it's all the fault of Protoss. Anyway, I'm tired of talking about this. Time to ladder.
(For me, most important, is that once the MSC/PO is nerfed/tweaked, I hope Blizzard leaves the game the fuck alone.)
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote: Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ.
TvT the best? Lol. PvZ and TvZ are miles better.
#stupidarguments
Definitely stupid arguments, and design discussion anyway. But, historically, TvT and TvZ have given us some of the very best games. HotS has screwed terran up recently, with TvZ only having a few great games (Innovation v Soulkey, Innovation v DRG, Innovation v Life). And TvT has given us some absolutely amazing games only after the hellbat nerf. But, historically, the best games of all time were probably TvZ's between MMA and DRG, but also some games with MKP against DRG. Other contenders are TvT's, such as Ryung versus Mvp on Crossfire SE.
So, whatever the point of those posts was, remember those games, rewatch them even, that's when SC2 was at its very best.
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote: Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ.
TvT the best? Lol. PvZ and TvZ are miles better.
#stupidarguments
I actually laughed out loud at the idea of PvZ being better than TvT, thank you.
TvT is just everything that is good about this game in one package, every unit has a place, constant action in multiple places, positional play(oh the glory of BW)where you can use smaller forces to fend off larger attacks, very little incentive to deathball, properly rewards mechanical superiority etc. Just a beautiful match up. It's the Mozart to the Nsync of PvZ.
This is why I don't think PvP should be a concern when making changes like this, the problems of the match up run so deeply that to resolve them we would have to remake almost all of protoss. In the current state of the game, we'll probably have to accept that some things are more or less un-salvageable to make any sort of progress. This is a good start.
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote: We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.
Ready? GO!
I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!
i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote: We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.
Ready? GO!
I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!
i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?
I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.
Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote: We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.
Ready? GO!
I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!
i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?
I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.
Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.
Better close the TL news section then Why else are we here if not to celebrate the best that StarCraft has brought us.
The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a reason not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote: We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.
Ready? GO!
I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!
i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?
I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.
Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.
Better close the TL news section then Why else are we here if not to celebrate the best that StarCraft has brought us.
I'm all for celbrating SC2, but I think we can do better than:
"No TvT is the best mirror match, noob" "No, scrub, TvZ is the best match up period. Must beautiful games of all time".
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote: We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.
Ready? GO!
I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!
i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?
I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.
Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.
Better close the TL news section then Why else are we here if not to celebrate the best that StarCraft has brought us.
I'm all for celbrating SC2, but I think we can do better than:
"No TvT is the best mirror match, noob" "No, scrub, TvZ is the best match up period. Must beautiful games of all time".
But I have high standards sometimes.
Hey, I would even be OK with that, if people would a) realize it's personal taste and not up for discussion b) do so without shitting on all other races/matchups ("TvT is the best matchup, because PvP is shit and...")
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote: We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.
Ready? GO!
I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!
i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?
I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.
Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.
Better close the TL news section then Why else are we here if not to celebrate the best that StarCraft has brought us.
I'm all for celbrating SC2, but I think we can do better than:
"No TvT is the best mirror match, noob" "No, scrub, TvZ is the best match up period. Must beautiful games of all time".
But I have high standards sometimes.
If you have high standards for posting, lead the way. Be a role model. Knowing your posting habits, I'd say that requires a wee bit of elevation on your part
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote: We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.
Ready? GO!
I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!
i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?
I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.
Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.
Better close the TL news section then Why else are we here if not to celebrate the best that StarCraft has brought us.
I'm all for celbrating SC2, but I think we can do better than:
"No TvT is the best mirror match, noob" "No, scrub, TvZ is the best match up period. Must beautiful games of all time".
But I have high standards sometimes.
If you have high standards for posting, lead the way. Be a role model. Knowing your posting habits, I'd say that requires a wee bit of elevation on your part
You're turn, I already did. See example from above:
"Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work."
See, I wanted to discuss a real, early game timing and not ether and theory craft.
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote: We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.
Ready? GO!
I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!
i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?
I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.
Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.
Better close the TL news section then Why else are we here if not to celebrate the best that StarCraft has brought us.
I'm all for celbrating SC2, but I think we can do better than:
"No TvT is the best mirror match, noob" "No, scrub, TvZ is the best match up period. Must beautiful games of all time".
But I have high standards sometimes.
If you have high standards for posting, lead the way. Be a role model. Knowing your posting habits, I'd say that requires a wee bit of elevation on your part
You're turn, I already did. See example from above:
"Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work."
See, I wanted to discuss a real, early game timing and not ether and theory craft.
Considering there are already timing windows with the 60s PO...
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
I'm blown away that you're of the opinion that PvP is bad and we should sacrifice it for other matchups. That's just lazy. Do something that makes all the matchups better. PvP is a far better matchup right now than the community gives it, spearheaded by the amount of hate it gets even in articles by writers who still talk about PvP like were in 2011 saying it's a coin flip and boring buildup. Just read the best games of 2013 for what I'm talking about. There's 3 PvP games I remember and none inside the top 30 when in fact several of them deserved much higher places on the list.
On behalf of tigerSC2 he suggests tanks fire two shots after researching. The first shot to catch act as a shield damage shell and the second the current tank shot. Both acting in aoe. Secondly thors need their air weapons to be changed. They should retain their splash attack but the unit targeted should take additional impact damage. This way magic box will still have its place, but its effectiveness will reduce as muta numbers reduce.
Again, not my suggestions, but someone wanted me to post this to talk about it for some reason. :/ So I figured, "Why not?" Though, to be honest I disagree with the EMP tank idea.
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
PvP early game was in pretty good shape before HotS came in with cheaper DTs, oracles and a MsC that can be used for blink and gateway rushes. If you disagree, I advise you to watch PvP form late 2012 and 2013, which had hardly any problems with early game rushes being too strong. HotS MsC is a fix to HotS introductions to this matchup.
So if you break PvP with a nerf to PO you are
purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none.
, just as in the scan example.
And I'm not #stupidthinging anything I disagree with. I'm stupidthinging anything that is either a matter of personal taste or a matter of logically wrong, as your example of "when you break PvP it's not because you broke it".
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
I'm blown away that you're of the opinion that PvP is bad and we should sacrifice it for other matchups. That's just lazy. Do something that makes all the matchups better. PvP is a far better matchup right now than the community gives it, spearheaded by the amount of hate it gets even in articles by writers who still talk about PvP like were in 2011 saying it's a coin flip and boring buildup. Just read the best games of 2013 for what I'm talking about. There's 3 PvP games I remember and none inside the top 30 when in fact several of them deserved much higher places on the list.
Well I'm a pragmatist, and I do not believe there is anything that can plausibly be done in a small patch that can make PvP good or at least decent. If the choice is between not nerfing something that is hurting other match ups and keeping it because it's needed due to the slightly absurd nature of PvP, I say it's gone in an instant. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and focus on what can realistically be done.
As for lazy, maybe, but after four years of feedback and essay long posts by dozens, if not hundreds of people...I think our expectations for what can actually be done need to be a little more grounded. This seems like a solution blizzard would be willing to do, and it will have to suffice. Much like everything in this game, it's about what we can do to make it suffice. Trying to fix PvP is a pipe dream.
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
PvP early game was in pretty good shape before HotS came in with cheaper DTs, oracles and a MsC that can be used for blink and gateway rushes. If you disagree, I advise you to watch PvP form late 2012 and 2013, which had hardly any problems with early game rushes being too strong. HotS MsC is a fix to HotS introductions to this matchup.
purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none.
, just as in the scan example.
And I'm not #stupidthinging anything I disagree with. I'm stupidthinging anything that is either a matter of personal taste or a matter of logically wrong, as your example of "when you break PvP it's not because you broke it".
But then the problems are with oracles, cheap DTs and the MSC as a whole, basically the whole HotS package made PvP bad. It can't be helped or reversed at this point, it is what is. Avoiding a minor nerf to MSC that can help PvT and PvZ because PvP ended up being shit in HotS is not a good reason. The nerf to PO isn't what is making it bad, HotS made it bad, and PO has just swept the problems under rug for a while. My logic is fine, and frankly your puerile "ur stupid" is becoming irritating.
Should worse come to worst, it's still a mirror so it's still balanced even if the gameplay is bad. The none mirror match ups take precedence, balance is more important that gameplay. Saying we should not nerf PO because it helps mitigate the underlying issues of PvP is a terrible argument.
Honestly, I don't really like the nerf approach. If PO gets nerfed, how about some buff for protoss to compensate? For example.. -10 sec to warpgate research? I've never understood why this thing got nerfed so hard in WoL. Yes, 4 gate all-in but it was overnerfed at some point.
I really wish Blizz would release hard data about the matchup balance for every level of skill. We know they have an enormous wealth of statistical data, but they are stubbornly refusing to share it, which has resulted in hyperbole and murky anecdotal evidence being all we have. Is random reddit poster #324242 correct when they assert that PvT seems broken at X skill level? We have no way of knowing.
Perhaps the game really and truly is fairly well balanced at all skill levels and current opinion is just a run-away train of discontent. Perhaps it's utterly and completely broken at some or all skill levels. How are we supposed to give feedback on whether or not changes seem appropriate when we have no idea if there's anything truly wrong? I can't trust my own experience. I thought terran was underpowered at the start of WoL, for fucks' sake. Of course my opinion is going to be skewed by my own inadequacy. We need objectivity if things are going to get better.
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
PvP early game was in pretty good shape before HotS came in with cheaper DTs, oracles and a MsC that can be used for blink and gateway rushes. If you disagree, I advise you to watch PvP form late 2012 and 2013, which had hardly any problems with early game rushes being too strong. HotS MsC is a fix to HotS introductions to this matchup.
So if you break PvP with a nerf to PO you are
purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none.
, just as in the scan example.
And I'm not #stupidthinging anything I disagree with. I'm stupidthinging anything that is either a matter of personal taste or a matter of logically wrong, as your example of "when you break PvP it's not because you broke it".
But then the problems are with oracles, cheap DTs and the MSC as a whole, basically the whole HotS package made PvP bad. It can't be helped or reversed at this point, it is what is. Avoiding a minor nerf to MSC that can help PvT and PvZ because PvP ended up being shit in HotS is not a good reason. The nerf to PO isn't what is making it bad, HotS made it bad, and PO has just swept the problems under rug for a while. My logic is fine, and frankly your puerile "ur stupid" is becoming irritating.
Should worse come to worst, it's still a mirror so it's still balanced even if the gameplay is bad. The none mirror match ups take precedence, balance is more important that gameplay. Saying we should not nerf PO because it helps mitigate the underlying issues of PvP is a terrible argument.
No, it did not make it bad, because there is a Mothership Core in HotS. It's a fact that it is here and that the gameplay has been figured/balanced as it is because it has been here. It's the scan example all over again, the scan is required as it is, because gameplay has been figured/balanced around it.
It's an interactive game, you can't remove some screws and then say that the apparate has been broken all along, despite it working before.
And I can partly agree that if it is 2nonmirrors vs 1mirror that can be improved/worsened, I would usually take the 2nonmirrors. Just that I think that it rather makes PvZ worse (is there any problem with PO currently? not really... but if Gateway expands become unavailable because of nerfs to the PO, jokes on you because it makes the matchup much worse and less diverse). Also I don't believe we should buff tanks eternally until only Mech is viable in TvT, if it is required to make Mech playable in TvZ and TvP. There are borders how much you want to sacrifice of a matchup for another one...
The tank buff doesn't address the big problem. Mech is fine in tvt and tvz. But the immortal just totally laughs at mech. Chargelots are also a problem but not as bad as immortals.
also the ghost change is stupid. The point of mech is to make mech units, not to make a bio unit to go with the mech. Plus it would make ghosts way too good vs high templars and such.
Mech is not fine in T v Z because Mass Swarmhost is an autowin through attrition. The Zerg can just get any number of Hydralisks (which are crazy good) and/or Broodlord-Corruptor to clean up.
David Kim needs to stop "buffing" mech without a clear vision. It should be painfully obvious by now that the one thing that Mech is missing is an all around reliable unit - such as a Goliath. Or something like a Roach but can also shoot air. Flat damage and no BS. Hell Bats might have been able to fill this role, but they can't shoot air and too much crying got it nerfed a while back.
Buffing Tank damage is not necessary - it should be map terrain that would buff Tanks. I forget the map but it was in 2012 WoL with a xel'naga tower on a high ground in the middle. Above and below the high ground there was high yield minerals. Tank's situated there in a power position had no problems with damage.
The only worthwhile and relevant change to mech so far was the combination of air/vehicle upgrades, but that is still a bandaid because David Kim just assumes that Terrans can automatically tech switch to air to counter Zerg/Protoss obviously superior air - forgetting that the aforementioned factions have ground units that can also shoot air.
On January 04 2014 11:00 mikumegurine wrote: said this in topics many seasons ago
just make tanks do extra bonus +damage to shields
infact widow mines do damage like that
from liqipedia:
Ground Attack: 125 (Splash) Air Attack: 125 (Splash) Bonus: +35 vs Shields Range: 5
So why is it so hard for the SC2 balance team to consider that for siege tanks?
because tanks already have bonus vs armored and they are not doing 2boni for one unit.
why not?
why is it a big deal that tanks would have 2 bonuses? the additional +damage to shield bonus only affects the TvP matchup (the one that mech is not worth doing)
On January 04 2014 11:00 mikumegurine wrote: said this in topics many seasons ago
just make tanks do extra bonus +damage to shields
infact widow mines do damage like that
from liqipedia:
Ground Attack: 125 (Splash) Air Attack: 125 (Splash) Bonus: +35 vs Shields Range: 5
So why is it so hard for the SC2 balance team to consider that for siege tanks?
because tanks already have bonus vs armored and they are not doing 2boni for one unit.
WoL Voids.
Or Ultralisks in the early WoL when they had Headbutt against buildings, normal attack, and bonus against armored.
There certainly are ways to make it work, and giving STs bonus against shields doesn't sound like a bad idea and it isn't that complicated, but Blizzard is pretty stubborn about these things.
yeah voids, but they made it a 20% passive ability button right? And the VR damage vs so weird and complicated that they probably just said fuck it anyways when they introduced that.
It's at least what Im guessing, why they never consider such damage changes and goes kindof with what DB said about the replicator ("cant do massive or workers or air... the rules got too long")
and with ultras, the building atzack got cut because the normal one got the bonus vs armored!
Poor poor david kim.... Imagine how sad this is if he's actually trying his best to balance the game for everybody instead of dicking us around.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we all been suggesting changes to make mech viable for ages now? You may as well try some of them, what have you got to lose? Even with the test maps, they aren't willing to try anything but the smallest changes possible. Hell, why not just give tanks EMP, and change one of the other "support" units so they aren't just meat shields.
On January 04 2014 03:30 Nebuchad wrote: You can see the biggest problem with SC2 in this thread.
PO change is announced, first reaction is negative. Everyone says that's not what should be done to help PvT and it won't change shit in PvZ. So it's not helping these match-ups.
[spoiler=Poll]
Poll: Photon Overcharge Change
Thumbs Up (1175)
78%
Thumbs Down (282)
19%
Neutral (49)
3%
1506 total votes
Your vote: Photon Overcharge Change
(Vote): Thumbs Up (Vote): Thumbs Down (Vote): Neutral
mhh?
Read the thread?
Your first reaction was "meh", as I recall. All the little côterie of terrans who keep writing the same post were negative about it, from snusmum to imperialfist. Avilo was pretty adamant about it, he made a long post and had an insufferable streaming session.
I really hope people don't think Avilo is a representative for Terran, he is 100% bad for the game. I think the game is well balanced right now, but tvp is frustrating. I don't think PO is too strong, it's just incredibly frustrating to play against. Oracles aren't too strong, they are just obnoxious and frustrating. Everything protoss is frustrating. Or #dirty
On January 03 2014 07:51 mewo wrote: Won't the msc thing just screw up pvp? Were terrans really worried about chain photon overcharges?
1) Who gives a shit, it's a mirror matchup, and the nerf won't hurt macro PvP play.
After balance the next important thing is entertainment. Back in the beginning of WoL PvP was simply 4-gate or die, and it was an abomination. Just because it's a mirror match up and is 'balanced by default' doesn't mean you shouldn't take into account how little changes like these can alter the match up. Just look at what Hellbats did to TvT at HotS release.
On January 04 2014 03:30 Nebuchad wrote: You can see the biggest problem with SC2 in this thread.
PO change is announced, first reaction is negative. Everyone says that's not what should be done to help PvT and it won't change shit in PvZ. So it's not helping these match-ups.
[spoiler=Poll]
Poll: Photon Overcharge Change
Thumbs Up (1175)
78%
Thumbs Down (282)
19%
Neutral (49)
3%
1506 total votes
Your vote: Photon Overcharge Change
(Vote): Thumbs Up (Vote): Thumbs Down (Vote): Neutral
mhh?
Read the thread?
Your first reaction was "meh", as I recall. All the little côterie of terrans who keep writing the same post were negative about it, from snusmum to imperialfist. Avilo was pretty adamant about it, he made a long post and had an insufferable streaming session.
I really hope people don't think Avilo is a representative for Terran, he is 100% bad for the game. I think the game is well balanced right now, but tvp is frustrating. I don't think PO is too strong, it's just incredibly frustrating to play against. Oracles aren't too strong, they are just obnoxious and frustrating. Everything protoss is frustrating. Or #dirty
But Avilo gives so much ammo for the balance whiners of the terran empire. He is Idra without all the dry humor and awesome cat.
I know this is been repeated several times, but I just want to throw in my input:
Reducing the duration of photon overcharge to 40 seconds is disastrous for PvP while having almost no effect on the other matchups. Almost all timings in PvP revolve around the timing of nexus cannon; many expand builds will no longer be viable with the reduction of the nexus cannon time and will completely disappear at some point. This means that PvP will be a matchup dominated by 1-base plays again, and probably the return of purely colossus mid games. The entire matchup will have to be restructured, many builds will become extinct, and PvP will return to the dark ages.
I may be over-dramatizing this a bit, but I think there's a definite possibility of all these things coming true.
After talking with some people, I'd be open to the idea of reducing the range of photon overcharge though. I agree that most aggressive terran plays, particularly ones that revolve around marine/tank have been completely shut down by photon overcharge, primarily because photon overcharge range is the same as siege tank range. However, by reducing the range by 1-2, terrans could easily siege protoss bases and make tank pushes/contains and such much more reliable in the future. I think giving terran the opportunity to open up different ways is overall very good for the matchup.
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
I'm blown away that you're of the opinion that PvP is bad and we should sacrifice it for other matchups. That's just lazy. Do something that makes all the matchups better. PvP is a far better matchup right now than the community gives it, spearheaded by the amount of hate it gets even in articles by writers who still talk about PvP like were in 2011 saying it's a coin flip and boring buildup. Just read the best games of 2013 for what I'm talking about. There's 3 PvP games I remember and none inside the top 30 when in fact several of them deserved much higher places on the list.
Well I'm a pragmatist, and I do not believe there is anything that can plausibly be done in a small patch that can make PvP good or at least decent. If the choice is between not nerfing something that is hurting other match ups and keeping it because it's needed due to the slightly absurd nature of PvP, I say it's gone in an instant. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and focus on what can realistically be done.
As for lazy, maybe, but after four years of feedback and essay long posts by dozens, if not hundreds of people...I think our expectations for what can actually be done need to be a little more grounded. This seems like a solution blizzard would be willing to do, and it will have to suffice. Much like everything in this game, it's about what we can do to make it suffice. Trying to fix PvP is a pipe dream.
PvP is actually a much better matchup, but shortsighted people never gave it a chance after Wings of Liberty and the joke it was back then. Meanwhile matchups like TvT that haven't evolved in forever somehow aren't stale.
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
I'm blown away that you're of the opinion that PvP is bad and we should sacrifice it for other matchups. That's just lazy. Do something that makes all the matchups better. PvP is a far better matchup right now than the community gives it, spearheaded by the amount of hate it gets even in articles by writers who still talk about PvP like were in 2011 saying it's a coin flip and boring buildup. Just read the best games of 2013 for what I'm talking about. There's 3 PvP games I remember and none inside the top 30 when in fact several of them deserved much higher places on the list.
Well I'm a pragmatist, and I do not believe there is anything that can plausibly be done in a small patch that can make PvP good or at least decent. If the choice is between not nerfing something that is hurting other match ups and keeping it because it's needed due to the slightly absurd nature of PvP, I say it's gone in an instant. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and focus on what can realistically be done.
As for lazy, maybe, but after four years of feedback and essay long posts by dozens, if not hundreds of people...I think our expectations for what can actually be done need to be a little more grounded. This seems like a solution blizzard would be willing to do, and it will have to suffice. Much like everything in this game, it's about what we can do to make it suffice. Trying to fix PvP is a pipe dream.
PvP is actually a much better matchup, but shortsighted people never gave it a chance after Wings of Liberty and the joke it was back then. Meanwhile matchups like TvT that haven't evolved in forever somehow aren't stale.
Uh, TvT didn't need any evolution, it was basically always an action-packed MU after people got past 1base banshee
On January 04 2014 16:25 fishinguy wrote: How about this for a mech buff
New Upgrade
Armory - 150/150, 120sec research
Transformation Boosters
"Reduce transformation time of mech units by 25%"
So reduce the time for tanks to siege etc
Tank from 4 to 3 seconds Hellion from 4 to 3 seconds Viking from 3 - 2.25 seconds
Transformation Servos should already do this.... its the upgrade that lets hellions go to helbats. It's been suggested several times and it seems like a good idea.
On January 04 2014 03:30 Nebuchad wrote: You can see the biggest problem with SC2 in this thread.
PO change is announced, first reaction is negative. Everyone says that's not what should be done to help PvT and it won't change shit in PvZ. So it's not helping these match-ups.
[spoiler=Poll]
Poll: Photon Overcharge Change
Thumbs Up (1175)
78%
Thumbs Down (282)
19%
Neutral (49)
3%
1506 total votes
Your vote: Photon Overcharge Change
(Vote): Thumbs Up (Vote): Thumbs Down (Vote): Neutral
mhh?
Read the thread?
Your first reaction was "meh", as I recall. All the little côterie of terrans who keep writing the same post were negative about it, from snusmum to imperialfist. Avilo was pretty adamant about it, he made a long post and had an insufferable streaming session.
I really hope people don't think Avilo is a representative for Terran, he is 100% bad for the game. I think the game is well balanced right now, but tvp is frustrating. I don't think PO is too strong, it's just incredibly frustrating to play against. Oracles aren't too strong, they are just obnoxious and frustrating. Everything protoss is frustrating. Or #dirty
But Avilo gives so much ammo for the balance whiners of the terran empire. He is Idra without all the dry humor and awesome cat.
After reading his attitude in that mech thread I wish he would just disappear.
On January 04 2014 03:30 Nebuchad wrote: You can see the biggest problem with SC2 in this thread.
PO change is announced, first reaction is negative. Everyone says that's not what should be done to help PvT and it won't change shit in PvZ. So it's not helping these match-ups.
[spoiler=Poll]
Poll: Photon Overcharge Change
Thumbs Up (1175)
78%
Thumbs Down (282)
19%
Neutral (49)
3%
1506 total votes
Your vote: Photon Overcharge Change
(Vote): Thumbs Up (Vote): Thumbs Down (Vote): Neutral
mhh?
Read the thread?
Your first reaction was "meh", as I recall. All the little côterie of terrans who keep writing the same post were negative about it, from snusmum to imperialfist. Avilo was pretty adamant about it, he made a long post and had an insufferable streaming session.
I really hope people don't think Avilo is a representative for Terran, he is 100% bad for the game. I think the game is well balanced right now, but tvp is frustrating. I don't think PO is too strong, it's just incredibly frustrating to play against. Oracles aren't too strong, they are just obnoxious and frustrating. Everything protoss is frustrating. Or #dirty
But Avilo gives so much ammo for the balance whiners of the terran empire. He is Idra without all the dry humor and awesome cat.
After reading his attitude in that mech thread I wish he would just disappear.
Why would you want the Bisu of SC2 mech to disappear?
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
I'm blown away that you're of the opinion that PvP is bad and we should sacrifice it for other matchups. That's just lazy. Do something that makes all the matchups better. PvP is a far better matchup right now than the community gives it, spearheaded by the amount of hate it gets even in articles by writers who still talk about PvP like were in 2011 saying it's a coin flip and boring buildup. Just read the best games of 2013 for what I'm talking about. There's 3 PvP games I remember and none inside the top 30 when in fact several of them deserved much higher places on the list.
Well I'm a pragmatist, and I do not believe there is anything that can plausibly be done in a small patch that can make PvP good or at least decent. If the choice is between not nerfing something that is hurting other match ups and keeping it because it's needed due to the slightly absurd nature of PvP, I say it's gone in an instant. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and focus on what can realistically be done.
As for lazy, maybe, but after four years of feedback and essay long posts by dozens, if not hundreds of people...I think our expectations for what can actually be done need to be a little more grounded. This seems like a solution blizzard would be willing to do, and it will have to suffice. Much like everything in this game, it's about what we can do to make it suffice. Trying to fix PvP is a pipe dream.
PvP is actually a much better matchup, but shortsighted people never gave it a chance after Wings of Liberty and the joke it was back then. Meanwhile matchups like TvT that haven't evolved in forever somehow aren't stale.
Yeah, exactly. People, who keep saing, that PvP is coinflip matchup, just doesn't understand PvP at all. PvP is great in HotS, and it's mainly becouse PO allow us to somewhat safely expand. Without PO PvP would be just 1-base vs 1-base all the time. And i think that, if they nerf PO to 40 seconds, it will be too weak to hold an expansion in PvP. But we will see, it might not be as bad, and it definitely will add agressive options to Terrans in TvP, so it can become more diverse matchup.
On January 04 2014 16:08 Wingblade wrote: PvP is actually a much better matchup, but shortsighted people never gave it a chance after Wings of Liberty and the joke it was back then. Meanwhile matchups like TvT that haven't evolved in forever somehow aren't stale.
Generally when the matchup is very deep in terms of gameplay, it just doesn't get stale (Just like how almost all the matchups in BW were, e.g. TvP BW, where even though it was mech 99% of the time, it NEVER got stale for years). Meta will shift depending on the map but when multiple build orders that are tailored to macro, greedy, aggression, tech etc are possible along with a few BO losses, every unit has a purpose, promote less deathball play due to siege tanks, emphasize positioning, can result in bio vs bio // bio vs mech // mech vs mech // bio/tank vs bio/tank, sky terran transitions and the likes..
This matchup is the closest thing that resembles BW and why not because most of the key design features with signature units were ported over. TvZ was also once like this.. 2011/12 produced some really awesome games til hello BL/Infestor.
Its interesting to observe that both Terran and somewhat Zerg did stay true to their old roots in terms of design and hence resulted in a very exciting matchup to play and spectate as seen by numerous games of the past (with the exception of ZvZ.. although effort vs DRG on taldarim always come into mind!!). However protoss and its new design that breaks alot of traditional RTS rules is where all the problems have occurred. PvP of the old, PvT, and how volatile PvZ was. Every matchup that involved SC2 protoss created some kind of a problem that frustrated alot of people. Somewhat like mixing oil with water and hoping they'd mix well.
I think it is much better now for PvZ and PvP.. but its PvT that has not changed very much and perhaps gotten worse off in HOTS. It would be quite nice to see this matchup have a big shakeup somehow without affecting the other two matchups. I think primarily the MSC's PO (a very rough bandaid fix by Blizzard imo) is what makes PvZ and PvP somewhat less volatile in HOTS so I believe they should be looking at other things instead of straightup nerfing it to 40 sec.
In my oppinion Photon Overcharge is absolutely NOT a problem in TvP right now. Yes it makes basically impossible to 1base against Toss. BUT I think every terran could live with that. The problem is, that the MSC makes Protoss Allins on the other hand way too strong with the Timewarp ability and the nice air to ground DPS it offers. And another problem is, that there are no viable lategame options for terran. D. Kim doesn´t understand at all where the key problems in the matchups are located. I really hope he gets fired soon.
Big TvP buff. Fast expand aggression in all its forms got a good buff and drop pressure got a good buff. It really lies in that area of saving the medivac after the protoss responds, or pressuring the front wanting to come back in with units on the Nexus-Cannoned main.
I like the potential changes, I just hope by "other changes" to help mech (i.e. EMP) they would consider some sort of Ghost buff. It's been an extremely underutilized unit since being neutered, having it's snipe ability only doing added damage against spell casters.
I feel they should do something in the realm of: -Reduce price cost of the Ghost(200,100) - This would be fair, considering HTs(50,150) and Infestors(100,150) both cost less and have AoE spells that do actual damage as opposed to the AoE counter-spell, EMP. The new cost can maybe be (150,100)?
-Fix EMP to maybe add some actual damage against mech/armored units - This could help both TvP and the rise of Mech in TvT by allowing EMP to deal real damage to only armored and mechanical units, any other units in the field are unaffected. This could also help vs Blink Stalker All-ins in TvP, coupled with the reduced cost, a Terran may be able to get a Ghost or two out in time for the attack. The real damage it deals wouldn't be great, just enough to jar their insides. Something like a weak psi storm, while keeping its main essence of shield/energy killer.
-Return Snipe to its old stats, but reduced damage vs Massive, like suggested in many threads.
There are others, but these are just off the top of my head reading this now.
How about we don't make another warhound? Having to siege up tanks is a good thing. It leads to more positional play, and rewards the better player. Having tanks run around doing massive damage from 13 range with no down-side is what makes colossus such a terrible unit. Instead, we need to stop units, such as the immortal, from being able to a-move through a siege tank line.
There are two things that needs to done in order to fix mech.
1. Increase Tempest supply cost from 4 to 6. Tempest should be used to force engagement and pick off key units, not be a hard counter to mech where you need to mass ravens/vikings and throw away all ground units in order to free up supply to match the extreme supply efficiency of Tempest.
2. Give tanks bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode, and let the bonus damage be spell damage which bypass hardened shields in the same way as widow mine damage do. I think just having +10 bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode would solve the weakness of tanks in TvP without making Tanks OP in TvT or TvZ.
A - Change the Ghost Reasoning: Ghosts have been nerfed often, their cost of 200m100g is worse than 150m150g for Bio, and it ridiculously high overall for a unit that's designed to deal with Infestor/HT only. - Snipe can use a rebuff. I'm still all for 25 Damage, +20 non Massive, +5 Psionic. Makes Snipe a useful spell again without slaughterraping T3 Zerg. Also helps a little bit with Mass zealot warp ins when you only have Ghosts in the rally to defend. - Buff movement speed - Because the 2.25 average speed of old is acvtually slow nowadaus (only mech and unstimmed bio move slower), A speed buff for the Ghost might be of use. Make them be able to retreat, so Terran can choose to disengage without losing the Ghosts for sure. - If no direct damage buff for snipe (FYI - The reasoning for the snipe nerf was that it killed broodlord/ultralisk too fast - there's no reason for the nerf against zealots/banelings/everything else), make the animation faster so Snipes 1 range advantage over feedback gives you a 100% win vs HTs if you use 2 Ghosts, instead of risking 2 Ghosts for not killing the HT (Juke gives HT the advantage in Snipe vs Feedback). Risks in TvZ/TvT: - Terran get's a lategame transition verse Zerg, where Snipe can deal with mutalisk, Infestors, Overseers, small Baneling skirmishes or in Mech's case, Vipers and Swarmhosts better. - TvT might get some of the cool Ghost rush builds of old back ( 45 damage Snipe one shots SCVs/Marines)
B - Change the Mothership Core Reasoning: The MSC is TOO much of a catch all unit - I think this is because of its mobility and the relatively low mana cost of it's spells. Increasing Mana costs makes the Mothership Core user FORCED to decide - Commit to a more powerful attack OR have the safety net ability of the MSC - Nerf Time Warp to 100 Energy. No more Triple Time Warps in Blink Rushes or engagements, No more using Time Warp and being able to Recall/Overcharge. - Overcharge to 125 Energy: You can't overcharge 2 Nexi, there's a considerable window between 2 Overcharges (Right now, it is 60 second overcharge - 60 second overcharge - 80 second window - 60 second overcharge -> this changes to 60 second overcharge, 40 second window - 60 second overcharge - 190 second window). This forces the use of sentries in greedy play and thus slows Tech down, and overall forces more defense if Terran is aggressive. - Recall to 125 Energy: So it can't be used with Time Warp / Overcharge - makes positioning of the Mothership Core important. Also; Change Vision Range (it's currently 14, which is one of the biggest reasons Blink is so strong), and I'm in favor of changing movement speed to something slightly lower. These changes all make the spells and positioning of the MSC take more commitment and weakens Blink All Ins by forcing the use of Stalkers for vision or the taking of risks. (might be going slightly overboard, but it is worth the try).
And I like the idea of +Mechanical damage for Ghosts (+Armored makes no sense) - Makes room for buffs for Mech without thrashing TvT.
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
I'm blown away that you're of the opinion that PvP is bad and we should sacrifice it for other matchups. That's just lazy. Do something that makes all the matchups better. PvP is a far better matchup right now than the community gives it, spearheaded by the amount of hate it gets even in articles by writers who still talk about PvP like were in 2011 saying it's a coin flip and boring buildup. Just read the best games of 2013 for what I'm talking about. There's 3 PvP games I remember and none inside the top 30 when in fact several of them deserved much higher places on the list.
Well I'm a pragmatist, and I do not believe there is anything that can plausibly be done in a small patch that can make PvP good or at least decent. If the choice is between not nerfing something that is hurting other match ups and keeping it because it's needed due to the slightly absurd nature of PvP, I say it's gone in an instant. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and focus on what can realistically be done.
As for lazy, maybe, but after four years of feedback and essay long posts by dozens, if not hundreds of people...I think our expectations for what can actually be done need to be a little more grounded. This seems like a solution blizzard would be willing to do, and it will have to suffice. Much like everything in this game, it's about what we can do to make it suffice. Trying to fix PvP is a pipe dream.
PvP is actually a much better matchup, but shortsighted people never gave it a chance after Wings of Liberty and the joke it was back then. Meanwhile matchups like TvT that haven't evolved in forever somehow aren't stale.
Protoss : People who don't know shouldn't talk about PvP, they have been brainwashed this is an awesome match up. Protoss : TvT is stale and doesn't evolve.
Sometimes you guy are magics, you manage to contradict yourself in 2 sentences.
On January 04 2014 21:13 MockHamill wrote: There are two things that needs to done in order to fix mech.
1. Increase Tempest supply cost from 4 to 6. Tempest should be used to force engagement and pick off key units, not be a hard counter to mech where you need to mass ravens/vikings and throw away all ground units in order to free up supply to match the extreme supply efficiency of Tempest.
2. Give tanks bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode, and let the bonus damage be spell damage which bypass hardened shields in the same way as widow mine damage do. I think just having +10 bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode would solve the weakness of tanks in TvP without making Tanks OP in TvT or TvZ.
On January 04 2014 21:13 MockHamill wrote: There are two things that needs to done in order to fix mech.
1. Increase Tempest supply cost from 4 to 6. Tempest should be used to force engagement and pick off key units, not be a hard counter to mech where you need to mass ravens/vikings and throw away all ground units in order to free up supply to match the extreme supply efficiency of Tempest.
2. Give tanks bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode, and let the bonus damage be spell damage which bypass hardened shields in the same way as widow mine damage do. I think just having +10 bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode would solve the weakness of tanks in TvP without making Tanks OP in TvT or TvZ.
These won't do a thing.
Actually, if you give a strong enough army in TvP for the T to not auto lose in frontal fight, mech become much more viable, the weakness being the mobility that the protoss can abuse. But it is how it should be. Now protoss combine mobility and power in one army, that's a problem.
On January 04 2014 21:13 MockHamill wrote: There are two things that needs to done in order to fix mech.
1. Increase Tempest supply cost from 4 to 6. Tempest should be used to force engagement and pick off key units, not be a hard counter to mech where you need to mass ravens/vikings and throw away all ground units in order to free up supply to match the extreme supply efficiency of Tempest.
2. Give tanks bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode, and let the bonus damage be spell damage which bypass hardened shields in the same way as widow mine damage do. I think just having +10 bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode would solve the weakness of tanks in TvP without making Tanks OP in TvT or TvZ.
These won't do a thing.
Actually, if you give a strong enough army in TvP for the T to not auto lose in frontal fight, mech become much more viable, the weakness being the mobility that the protoss can abuse. But it is how it should be. Now protoss combine mobility and power in one army, that's a problem.
He is right. A +10 dmg on shield for tanks wouldn't change a thing, in other words, the T would still auto lose in a frontal fight against any serious lategame Protoss army. Even an equal exchange (which wouldn't happen with this buff) would actually result in T auto-losing due to remax/mobility issue.
+10 vs shields and making that spell damage would be amazing and change a thousand things. No clue how you guys can say it wouldn't change a thing when it would: - double the damage tanks do vs hardened shields, thus reducing shots needed from 14 to 9 against Immortals. - buff tank damage vs archons by over 28% (from 11 to 8 shots) - buff tanks against every other Protoss ground unit with results like 4shots instead of 5 against zealots, not to mention all the implications for splash
If you think such a buff wouldn't change a thing (not to mention the Tempest nerf on top of that), then I don't where you guys would start to note differences. With +100damage? 5movement speed while sieged? Tank costs reduced to 0/0/0?
On January 05 2014 00:40 Big J wrote: +10 vs shields and making that spell damage would be amazing and change a thousand things. No clue how you guys can say it wouldn't change a thing when it would: - double the damage tanks do vs hardened shields, thus reducing shots needed from 14 to 9 against Immortals. - buff tank damage vs archons by over 28% (from 11 to 8 shots) - buff tanks against every other Protoss ground unit with results like 4shots instead of 5 against zealots, not to mention all the implications for splash
If you think such a buff wouldn't change a thing (not to mention the Tempest nerf on top of that), then I don't where you guys would start to note differences. With +100damage? 5movement speed while sieged? Tank costs reduced to 0/0/0?
I think the same as you, +10 dmg against shield might be even a bit OP.
On January 05 2014 00:40 Big J wrote: +10 vs shields and making that spell damage would be amazing and change a thousand things. No clue how you guys can say it wouldn't change a thing when it would: - double the damage tanks do vs hardened shields, thus reducing shots needed from 14 to 9 against Immortals. - buff tank damage vs archons by over 28% (from 11 to 8 shots) - buff tanks against every other Protoss ground unit with results like 4shots instead of 5 against zealots, not to mention all the implications for splash
If you think such a buff wouldn't change a thing (not to mention the Tempest nerf on top of that), then I don't where you guys would start to note differences. With +100damage? 5movement speed while sieged? Tank costs reduced to 0/0/0?
On January 05 2014 00:40 Big J wrote: +10 vs shields and making that spell damage would be amazing and change a thousand things. No clue how you guys can say it wouldn't change a thing when it would: - double the damage tanks do vs hardened shields, thus reducing shots needed from 14 to 9 against Immortals. - buff tank damage vs archons by over 28% (from 11 to 8 shots) - buff tanks against every other Protoss ground unit with results like 4shots instead of 5 against zealots, not to mention all the implications for splash
If you think such a buff wouldn't change a thing (not to mention the Tempest nerf on top of that), then I don't where you guys would start to note differences. With +100damage? 5movement speed while sieged? Tank costs reduced to 0/0/0?
I think the same as you, +10 dmg against shield might be even a bit OP.
Hm, I don't think it would break Mech vs Protoss. But it might be unnecessarily strong against units like stalkers and sentries. And it wouldn't help TvZ, where I think a small tank buff is necessary as well. I think there could be better solutions (like the one I'm advertising usually, higher damage against the single main target independently of the armor type, same splash as right now). But if I had to choose between more of blizzard's "we will make Mech work: let's buff the ghost; let's buff the widow mine; let's make hellbats biological" and EMP shells for tanks, EMP shells with ~10spell damage vs shields sounds like a very great solution.
A Siege Tank buff from 50 vs Armored to 60 vs Armored could:
1) Greatly imbalance mid-game TvT in favor of Mech and Biomech. With 60 vs Armored damage, the moment you get +1 Weapons on your Siege Tank, you 2-shot Marauders unless they have +2 Armor (and therefore 3 Armor which lets them survive 2 Siege Tank shells with 1 Life left.) Once you go beyond +2 Weapon upgrades, you reach the point of no return.
2) Improve TvP Mech. Currently Stalkers take 4 hits to die but the moment you go to +1 Weapon upgrades, Stalkers will take 3 hits to die, just as Dragoons once did and Colossi would likely take one hit less to kill with a Siege Tank. This will greatly improve the benefits of an Armory in the midgame. This combined with removing Moebius Reactor and starting Ghosts with 75 Energy without the need for an upgrade could make Ghost Mech much easier to obtain and give EMPs immediate availability, indirectly improving the tank tenfold against Immortals and Archons. However, this could result in a colossal TvP Bio imbalance and result in earlier mid-game Ghost timing attacks.
3) Improve TvZ Mech. Roaches have 145HP and currently take 3 hits to kill. At +3 Weapon upgrades where a Siege Tank would deal 75 damage vs Armored, tanks would 2-shot Roaches and fare somewhat better against Ultralisks.
But what if David Kim buffed the Siege Tank's damage vs Armored through a small baseline damage upgrade and improved scaling from weapon upgrades too? The result:
55 vs Armored: Level 0:
1. 4-shots Stalkers 2. 7-shots Colossus 3. 4-shots Immortals without Shields 4. 3-shots Roaches 5. 10-shots Ultralisks (already an immediate improvement as health regen and base armor would result in 11-shotting.) 6. 3-shot Marauders
62 vs Armored: Level 1: 1. 3-shots Stalkers unless they have +2 Armor. 2. 6-shots Colossus 3. 4-shots Immortals without Shields 4. 3-shots Roaches 5. 9-shots Ultralisks 6. 3-shot Marauders
69 vs Armored: Level 2: 1. 3-shots all Stalkers. 2. 6-shots Colossus. 3. 3-shots Immortals without Shields unless they have +2 Armor. 4. 3-shots Roaches 5. 8-shots Ultralisks. 6. 2-shots Marauders
76 vs Armored: Level 3: 1. 3-shots all Stalkers. 2. 5-shots Colossus. 3. 3-shots all Immortals without Shields. 4. 2-shots Roaches unless on +3 Armor upgrades. 5. 7-shots Ultralisks unless +4 Armor upgraded. 6. 2-shots Marauders.
On January 05 2014 00:40 Big J wrote: +10 vs shields and making that spell damage would be amazing and change a thousand things. No clue how you guys can say it wouldn't change a thing when it would: - double the damage tanks do vs hardened shields, thus reducing shots needed from 14 to 9 against Immortals. - buff tank damage vs archons by over 28% (from 11 to 8 shots) - buff tanks against every other Protoss ground unit with results like 4shots instead of 5 against zealots, not to mention all the implications for splash
If you think such a buff wouldn't change a thing (not to mention the Tempest nerf on top of that), then I don't where you guys would start to note differences. With +100damage? 5movement speed while sieged? Tank costs reduced to 0/0/0?
I think the same as you, +10 dmg against shield might be even a bit OP.
Hm, I don't think it would break Mech vs Protoss. But it might be unnecessarily strong against units like stalkers and sentries. And it wouldn't help TvZ, where I think a small tank buff is necessary as well. I think there could be better solutions (like the one I'm advertising usually, higher damage against the single main target independently of the armor type, same splash as right now). But if I had to choose between more of blizzard's "we will make Mech work: let's buff the ghost; let's buff the widow mine; let's make hellbats biological" and EMP shells for tanks, EMP shells with ~10spell damage vs shields sounds like a very great solution.
Newsflash, Siege Tanks are meant to counter Stalkers and currently Stalkers are the soft-counter to Siege Tanks with good micro and Blink researched.
On January 04 2014 21:13 MockHamill wrote: There are two things that needs to done in order to fix mech.
1. Increase Tempest supply cost from 4 to 6. Tempest should be used to force engagement and pick off key units, not be a hard counter to mech where you need to mass ravens/vikings and throw away all ground units in order to free up supply to match the extreme supply efficiency of Tempest.
2. Give tanks bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode, and let the bonus damage be spell damage which bypass hardened shields in the same way as widow mine damage do. I think just having +10 bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode would solve the weakness of tanks in TvP without making Tanks OP in TvT or TvZ.
These won't do a thing.
Actually, if you give a strong enough army in TvP for the T to not auto lose in frontal fight, mech become much more viable, the weakness being the mobility that the protoss can abuse. But it is how it should be. Now protoss combine mobility and power in one army, that's a problem.
On January 05 2014 00:40 Big J wrote: +10 vs shields and making that spell damage would be amazing and change a thousand things. No clue how you guys can say it wouldn't change a thing when it would: - double the damage tanks do vs hardened shields, thus reducing shots needed from 14 to 9 against Immortals. - buff tank damage vs archons by over 28% (from 11 to 8 shots) - buff tanks against every other Protoss ground unit with results like 4shots instead of 5 against zealots, not to mention all the implications for splash
If you think such a buff wouldn't change a thing (not to mention the Tempest nerf on top of that), then I don't where you guys would start to note differences. With +100damage? 5movement speed while sieged? Tank costs reduced to 0/0/0?
I think the same as you, +10 dmg against shield might be even a bit OP.
Hm, I don't think it would break Mech vs Protoss. But it might be unnecessarily strong against units like stalkers and sentries. And it wouldn't help TvZ, where I think a small tank buff is necessary as well. I think there could be better solutions (like the one I'm advertising usually, higher damage against the single main target independently of the armor type, same splash as right now). But if I had to choose between more of blizzard's "we will make Mech work: let's buff the ghost; let's buff the widow mine; let's make hellbats biological" and EMP shells for tanks, EMP shells with ~10spell damage vs shields sounds like a very great solution.
Newsflash, Siege Tanks are meant to counter Stalkers and currently Stalkers are the soft-counter to Siege Tanks with good micro and Blink researched.
No they don't. If your opponent masses stalkers against Mech it's a freewin, talk with anybody who has played Mech at a reasonable level against Protoss. Like me. No clue how you think Stalkers can beat tanks, mass tank amoves mass stalkers without sieging. If he tries to do fancy blink micro (which is pretty hard because to lose targetting from a tank the stalker has to get at least out of their vision range of 11, which means blinking far back), targetfire stalker clumps and they will evaporate from max health to 0 long before he can start blinking. All of that not talking about hellbats also wiping the floor with stalkers if he closes in, which he has to do to even be able to attack tanks.
People forget the stalkers are made of glass and are only good at alpha striking down a single unit at a time. If you can blink them into a flank were they won't take to much DPS, they can do some damage. But in a straight up fight they suck ass.
On January 05 2014 01:42 Morbidius wrote: Are people seriously saying +10 vs Shields as separate damage would do nothing? I think its enough to break the match up.
It's kind of like that 10% tank buff that broke all terran match-ups. The problem of mech TvP is not the tank damage since the game is usually decided before a number of tanks gets build.
On January 05 2014 01:42 Morbidius wrote: Are people seriously saying +10 vs Shields as separate damage would do nothing? I think its enough to break the match up.
It's kind of like that 10% tank buff that broke all terran match-ups.
Let's not get carried away here, the 10% attack speed buff was considered to much. We got a massive 7% instead. Still broke the T MUs though.
I'm totally okay with making mech more viable in all matchups, but I'd like to see it become a little more mechanically demanding to execute. I feel like on certain maps it's possible for a much weaker player to abuse a mech build for easy wins (Granted, I haven't played on any of the new maps yet.)
On January 05 2014 02:49 Kestnuts wrote: I'm totally okay with making mech more viable in all matchups, but I'd like to see it become a little more mechanically demanding to execute. I feel like on certain maps it's possible for a much weaker player to abuse a mech build for easy wins (Granted, I haven't played on any of the new maps yet.)
It's not as mechanically demanding as bio in a certain way, but in other aspect it's much harder depending your playstyle. If you play aggressive with mech, like timing attack and drop heavy, it's as hard as bio in every aspect but splitting where you don't split in fight but you have to position yourself perfectly, and it's not that easy. If you play more of a passive style, you have to react to everything that comes to you perfectly, react very fast to every aggression on the minimap (same as bio but with a much slower army so.). You have to scout like a beast to have the perfect composition everytime because you might lose to 3 broodlords if you don't have enough vikings, to a sick SH transition if you don't have enough tanks or to a mass muta if you don't have enough thor. It's something you don't really care about when you play bio centric style for exemple.
On January 05 2014 01:34 Plansix wrote: People forget the stalkers are made of glass and are only good at alpha striking down a single unit at a time. If you can blink them into a flank were they won't take to much DPS, they can do some damage. But in a straight up fight they suck ass.
With 160 HP, Stalkers are pretty beafy for a 2supply unit, don´t you think? Dunno where this comes, that they are made of glass, when a roach with 145 HP at 2 supply is considered as a tank.
On January 05 2014 01:34 Plansix wrote: People forget the stalkers are made of glass and are only good at alpha striking down a single unit at a time. If you can blink them into a flank were they won't take to much DPS, they can do some damage. But in a straight up fight they suck ass.
With 160 HP, Stalkers are pretty beafy for a 2supply unit, don´t you think? Dunno where this comes, that they are made of glass, when a roach with 145 HP at 2 supply is considered as a tank.
cause Roaches are lots of HP for cheap cost
its not all about supply...you gota look at costs...
On January 05 2014 02:49 Kestnuts wrote: I'm totally okay with making mech more viable in all matchups, but I'd like to see it become a little more mechanically demanding to execute. I feel like on certain maps it's possible for a much weaker player to abuse a mech build for easy wins (Granted, I haven't played on any of the new maps yet.)
It's not as mechanically demanding as bio in a certain way, but in other aspect it's much harder depending your playstyle. If you play aggressive with mech, like timing attack and drop heavy, it's as hard as bio in every aspect but splitting where you don't split in fight but you have to position yourself perfectly, and it's not that easy. If you play more of a passive style, you have to react to everything that comes to you perfectly, react very fast to every aggression on the minimap (same as bio but with a much slower army so.). You have to scout like a beast to have the perfect composition everytime because you might lose to 3 broodlords if you don't have enough vikings, to a sick SH transition if you don't have enough tanks or to a mass muta if you don't have enough thor. It's something you don't really care about when you play bio centric style for exemple.
That's true, and I'm not saying I'm a total expert, since I haven't played terran since WoL, but from what I remember it seemed like it was harder to kill mech than it is to play it. Not so much the hellbat drop-heavy mech style, but the turtle on 3base to a deathball mech style. It's beatable, no doubt, but I'd like it to be a little less easy to turtle in any matchup, period, and as a zerg player I wish we had more options to aggressively shut down a turtling terran or toss without going totally all in. I don't enjoy camping outside a terrans base with swarmhosts and vipers and starving them out for 45 minutes, I guess.
I hope everyone is keeping in mind how much these changes will ultimately effect Allins specifically reviving the 1/1/1. All of these changes need to be an upgrade at the armory or something.. You could go with the + dmg to shields but at the very least make it somewhat mid to late game upgrade to prevent this from just being a straight allin buff. Maybe I'm just terrible but good terrans who don't use their ghosts sloppy create some of the most fun matches by having that late game micro battle.
Also I have no idea why po is being nerfed instead of the absolutely insane oracle. I play toss and that unit is stupid
On January 05 2014 03:30 lukem wrote: I hope everyone is keeping in mind how much these changes will ultimately effect Allins specifically reviving the 1/1/1. All of these changes need to be an upgrade at the armory or something.. You could go with the + dmg to shields but at the very least make it somewhat mid to late game upgrade to prevent this from just being a straight allin buff. Maybe I'm just terrible but good terrans who don't use their ghosts sloppy create some of the most fun matches by having that late game micro battle.
I don't know if 1/1/1 will be viable again since there is still the 13 ranges PO that deal pretty good against tanks.
On January 05 2014 03:30 lukem wrote: I hope everyone is keeping in mind how much these changes will ultimately effect Allins specifically reviving the 1/1/1. All of these changes need to be an upgrade at the armory or something.. You could go with the + dmg to shields but at the very least make it somewhat mid to late game upgrade to prevent this from just being a straight allin buff. Maybe I'm just terrible but good terrans who don't use their ghosts sloppy create some of the most fun matches by having that late game micro battle.
I don't know if 1/1/1 will be viable again since there is still the 13 ranges PO that deal pretty good against tanks.
They should leave po the same then and just nerf the retardation that is the oracle
On January 05 2014 03:43 aZealot wrote: + 10 ST damage vs shields? Boy, I'm glad that you lot are not in charge, and that Blizzard have said that will not happen.
As to the Oracle, you may be right. But, then, Blizzard thought it was "cool" and wanted to see more of it...
I read somewhere that you were pretty mad about nerfing protoss, so you know, your biased vision of the game and your "I want to have it easy" isn't helping very much in a constructive discussion.
On January 05 2014 03:30 lukem wrote: I hope everyone is keeping in mind how much these changes will ultimately effect Allins specifically reviving the 1/1/1. All of these changes need to be an upgrade at the armory or something.. You could go with the + dmg to shields but at the very least make it somewhat mid to late game upgrade to prevent this from just being a straight allin buff. Maybe I'm just terrible but good terrans who don't use their ghosts sloppy create some of the most fun matches by having that late game micro battle.
Also I have no idea why po is being nerfed instead of the absolutely insane oracle. I play toss and that unit is stupid
Yeah, I find it pretty comical that our feedback is somehow relevant now, when everyone has complained about the oracle since it was buffed. Even toss players have said it didn't need to be buffed, or at least not to the degree that it was buffed. But ofc that was David Kim's idea, and obviously he is infallible, so what's the point of giving feedback now? If he doesn't already know, who could possibly know better?
Then again, the oracle must not be too bad if you can change PO in a meaningless way in p vs t, yet they're doing back flips over it, while toss players don't even care... If that distraction can take one's mind off the oracle, then it must be fine. Nothing makes sense to me.
Personally, I think time warp lasts way longer than needed. There's no matchup where I need it to last 30 seconds. I just really don't get not buffing things like sensor towers or nerfing time warp, which clearly lasts way longer than it needs to. I just have this image in my head of everyone on the balance team trying to all-in/cheese everyone, all day. There's just no other way for me to explain it.
On January 05 2014 02:49 Kestnuts wrote: I'm totally okay with making mech more viable in all matchups, but I'd like to see it become a little more mechanically demanding to execute. I feel like on certain maps it's possible for a much weaker player to abuse a mech build for easy wins (Granted, I haven't played on any of the new maps yet.)
It's not as mechanically demanding as bio in a certain way, but in other aspect it's much harder depending your playstyle. If you play aggressive with mech, like timing attack and drop heavy, it's as hard as bio in every aspect but splitting where you don't split in fight but you have to position yourself perfectly, and it's not that easy. If you play more of a passive style, you have to react to everything that comes to you perfectly, react very fast to every aggression on the minimap (same as bio but with a much slower army so.). You have to scout like a beast to have the perfect composition everytime because you might lose to 3 broodlords if you don't have enough vikings, to a sick SH transition if you don't have enough tanks or to a mass muta if you don't have enough thor. It's something you don't really care about when you play bio centric style for exemple.
That's true, and I'm not saying I'm a total expert, since I haven't played terran since WoL, but from what I remember it seemed like it was harder to kill mech than it is to play it. Not so much the hellbat drop-heavy mech style, but the turtle on 3base to a deathball mech style. It's beatable, no doubt, but I'd like it to be a little less easy to turtle in any matchup, period, and as a zerg player I wish we had more options to aggressively shut down a turtling terran or toss without going totally all in. I don't enjoy camping outside a terrans base with swarmhosts and vipers and starving them out for 45 minutes, I guess.
Like you said, you are not an expert so you don't get to be the judge to say which style is harder to play, mech just requires a different skillset to play than bio. As Masters league Terran (both bio and mech) I have to say that mech is much much harder to pull off than bio, even when most of the ladder has horrible reactions to mech. I practice a lot with my clan mates and although I have played less than 500 BIO ladder games I have a much easier time beating with bio than with mech, in which I have thousands of games and I know the style inside out.
Zergs get mad then whey lose the 45minute game to Terran mech even though Zerg was already dead at the 20minute mark, it's just that mech is so bad that it will take so long to kill an enemy, even if the enemy spent the whole game building the wrong unit compositions and trading horribly. So Zergs get this impression that they "fought all game long and used every unit" but still lost but it's just because mech is so bad in the first place that the games take so long.
Zerg allined you 2 times, failed horribly but you still don't have a critical mass of units? Don't even try to move out and punish the zerg! Or they will pop a bunch of swarm hosts and suddenly you can't do any offensive move with your tanks until you have 10 ravens.
The ignorance surrounding mech is truly astounding but I suppose they must come from either very narrow minded people and/or people in low leagues in which mech might be stronger than bio because noobs can't macro.
On January 05 2014 03:30 lukem wrote: I hope everyone is keeping in mind how much these changes will ultimately effect Allins specifically reviving the 1/1/1. All of these changes need to be an upgrade at the armory or something.. You could go with the + dmg to shields but at the very least make it somewhat mid to late game upgrade to prevent this from just being a straight allin buff. Maybe I'm just terrible but good terrans who don't use their ghosts sloppy create some of the most fun matches by having that late game micro battle.
I don't know if 1/1/1 will be viable again since there is still the 13 ranges PO that deal pretty good against tanks.
They should leave po the same then and just nerf the retardation that is the oracle
I wouldn't mind a slight nerf to Particle Beam, either damage or energy cost, but it shouldn't be overnerfed into oblivion.
On January 05 2014 03:30 lukem wrote: I hope everyone is keeping in mind how much these changes will ultimately effect Allins specifically reviving the 1/1/1. All of these changes need to be an upgrade at the armory or something.. You could go with the + dmg to shields but at the very least make it somewhat mid to late game upgrade to prevent this from just being a straight allin buff. Maybe I'm just terrible but good terrans who don't use their ghosts sloppy create some of the most fun matches by having that late game micro battle.
I don't know if 1/1/1 will be viable again since there is still the 13 ranges PO that deal pretty good against tanks.
They should leave po the same then and just nerf the retardation that is the oracle
I wouldn't mind a slight nerf to Particle Beam, either damage or energy cost, but it shouldn't be overnerfed into oblivion.
We could just roll back the utterly unnecessary speed buff and it would be a lot better.
On January 05 2014 03:43 aZealot wrote: + 10 ST damage vs shields? Boy, I'm glad that you lot are not in charge, and that Blizzard have said that will not happen.
As to the Oracle, you may be right. But, then, Blizzard thought it was "cool" and wanted to see more of it...
Where did Blizzard say that +shield damage for siege tanks will not happen?
On January 05 2014 02:49 Kestnuts wrote: I'm totally okay with making mech more viable in all matchups, but I'd like to see it become a little more mechanically demanding to execute. I feel like on certain maps it's possible for a much weaker player to abuse a mech build for easy wins (Granted, I haven't played on any of the new maps yet.)
It's not as mechanically demanding as bio in a certain way, but in other aspect it's much harder depending your playstyle. If you play aggressive with mech, like timing attack and drop heavy, it's as hard as bio in every aspect but splitting where you don't split in fight but you have to position yourself perfectly, and it's not that easy. If you play more of a passive style, you have to react to everything that comes to you perfectly, react very fast to every aggression on the minimap (same as bio but with a much slower army so.). You have to scout like a beast to have the perfect composition everytime because you might lose to 3 broodlords if you don't have enough vikings, to a sick SH transition if you don't have enough tanks or to a mass muta if you don't have enough thor. It's something you don't really care about when you play bio centric style for exemple.
That's true, and I'm not saying I'm a total expert, since I haven't played terran since WoL, but from what I remember it seemed like it was harder to kill mech than it is to play it. Not so much the hellbat drop-heavy mech style, but the turtle on 3base to a deathball mech style. It's beatable, no doubt, but I'd like it to be a little less easy to turtle in any matchup, period, and as a zerg player I wish we had more options to aggressively shut down a turtling terran or toss without going totally all in. I don't enjoy camping outside a terrans base with swarmhosts and vipers and starving them out for 45 minutes, I guess.
Like you said, you are not an expert so you don't get to be the judge to say which style is harder to play, mech just requires a different skillset to play than bio. As Masters league Terran (both bio and mech) I have to say that mech is much much harder to pull off than bio, even when most of the ladder has horrible reactions to mech. I practice a lot with my clan mates and although I have played less than 500 BIO ladder games I have a much easier time beating with bio than with mech, in which I have thousands of games and I know the style inside out.
Zergs get mad then whey lose the 45minute game to Terran mech even though Zerg was already dead at the 20minute mark, it's just that mech is so bad that it will take so long to kill an enemy, even if the enemy spent the whole game building the wrong unit compositions and trading horribly. So Zergs get this impression that they "fought all game long and used every unit" but still lost but it's just because mech is so bad in the first place that the games take so long.
Zerg allined you 2 times, failed horribly but you still don't have a critical mass of units? Don't even try to move out and punish the zerg! Or they will pop a bunch of swarm hosts and suddenly you can't do any offensive move with your tanks until you have 10 ravens.
The ignorance surrounding mech is truly astounding but I suppose they must come from either very narrow minded people and/or people in low leagues in which mech might be stronger than bio because noobs can't macro.
That was kind of rude. You don't get to say who's allowed to judge what. I've played both races at least to a diamond level and I think mech is less difficult to play than whatever zerg has to do to beat it. It's a lot more mechanically demanding to beat than it is to execute. I don't know why more players don't use it, besides the benefit of meta gaming your opponent, who normally expects a 4m push, it's ridiculously cost efficient and extremely difficult to kill once the terran is maxed. I'm not saying anybody that plays mech is bad, i just don't think it should be possible for any race or unit comp to wall in on 3 bases and let your opponent take the rest of the map, and still have anything better than a snowballs chance in hell of winning. At that point your opponent should be able to just remax again and again and wear you down no matter what you're doing. This goes deeper than unit comps, it's a game design issue that I find deeply frustrating.
On January 05 2014 03:43 aZealot wrote: + 10 ST damage vs shields? Boy, I'm glad that you lot are not in charge, and that Blizzard have said that will not happen.
As to the Oracle, you may be right. But, then, Blizzard thought it was "cool" and wanted to see more of it...
Where did Blizzard say that +shield damage for siege tanks will not happen?
Something a while ago about not having multiple attributes (e.g. + vs armour/+ vs shields and so on). DB said it in an interview a while ago. Of course, they might revisit that decision. I hope they don't though. It would make Biomech OP against Protoss, IMO (unless handled carefully, maybe, with a return of siege tank research and the anti-shield shell also researchable). But, then I am not really a fan of ST based mech in SC2. It's not going to be the return of positional play a la BW as the economies allow max-out too early. Instead it will be a turtle bore fest which is the opposite of what Blizzard says they want for the game.
On January 05 2014 02:49 Kestnuts wrote: I'm totally okay with making mech more viable in all matchups, but I'd like to see it become a little more mechanically demanding to execute. I feel like on certain maps it's possible for a much weaker player to abuse a mech build for easy wins (Granted, I haven't played on any of the new maps yet.)
It's not as mechanically demanding as bio in a certain way, but in other aspect it's much harder depending your playstyle. If you play aggressive with mech, like timing attack and drop heavy, it's as hard as bio in every aspect but splitting where you don't split in fight but you have to position yourself perfectly, and it's not that easy. If you play more of a passive style, you have to react to everything that comes to you perfectly, react very fast to every aggression on the minimap (same as bio but with a much slower army so.). You have to scout like a beast to have the perfect composition everytime because you might lose to 3 broodlords if you don't have enough vikings, to a sick SH transition if you don't have enough tanks or to a mass muta if you don't have enough thor. It's something you don't really care about when you play bio centric style for exemple.
That's true, and I'm not saying I'm a total expert, since I haven't played terran since WoL, but from what I remember it seemed like it was harder to kill mech than it is to play it. Not so much the hellbat drop-heavy mech style, but the turtle on 3base to a deathball mech style. It's beatable, no doubt, but I'd like it to be a little less easy to turtle in any matchup, period, and as a zerg player I wish we had more options to aggressively shut down a turtling terran or toss without going totally all in. I don't enjoy camping outside a terrans base with swarmhosts and vipers and starving them out for 45 minutes, I guess.
Like you said, you are not an expert so you don't get to be the judge to say which style is harder to play, mech just requires a different skillset to play than bio. As Masters league Terran (both bio and mech) I have to say that mech is much much harder to pull off than bio, even when most of the ladder has horrible reactions to mech. I practice a lot with my clan mates and although I have played less than 500 BIO ladder games I have a much easier time beating with bio than with mech, in which I have thousands of games and I know the style inside out.
Zergs get mad then whey lose the 45minute game to Terran mech even though Zerg was already dead at the 20minute mark, it's just that mech is so bad that it will take so long to kill an enemy, even if the enemy spent the whole game building the wrong unit compositions and trading horribly. So Zergs get this impression that they "fought all game long and used every unit" but still lost but it's just because mech is so bad in the first place that the games take so long.
Zerg allined you 2 times, failed horribly but you still don't have a critical mass of units? Don't even try to move out and punish the zerg! Or they will pop a bunch of swarm hosts and suddenly you can't do any offensive move with your tanks until you have 10 ravens.
The ignorance surrounding mech is truly astounding but I suppose they must come from either very narrow minded people and/or people in low leagues in which mech might be stronger than bio because noobs can't macro.
That was kind of rude. You don't get to say who's allowed to judge what. I've played both races at least to a diamond level and I think mech is less difficult to play than whatever zerg has to do to beat it. It's a lot more mechanically demanding to beat than it is to execute. I don't know why more players don't use it, besides the benefit of meta gaming your opponent, who normally expects a 4m push, it's ridiculously cost efficient and extremely difficult to kill once the terran is maxed. I'm not saying anybody that plays mech is bad, i just don't think it should be possible for any race or unit comp to wall in on 3 bases and let your opponent take the rest of the map, and still have anything better than a snowballs chance in hell of winning. At that point your opponent should be able to just remax again and again and wear you down no matter what you're doing. This goes deeper than unit comps, it's a game design issue that I find deeply frustrating.
You can't hide your tech, if you never scout it's your problem, but you should not be surprised by mech. If you let the terran player on 3 bases and you take the rest of the map, you just can't lose, or you were too greedy and that's why you lost to his push. You shouldn't be able to beat maxed mech in one front fight, it is totally normal. There are plenty of way to kill the mech player, and the easiest way is to just massing SH, don't tell me it's hard to micro. If the terran player doesn't have a critical mass of tanks to deal against SH, he has auto lose. He can't do a sky transition on 3 bases too.
So all in all, you just don't know how to deal against mech, but don't take your case an universal evidence of mech being easier than bio.
On January 05 2014 03:43 aZealot wrote: + 10 ST damage vs shields? Boy, I'm glad that you lot are not in charge, and that Blizzard have said that will not happen.
As to the Oracle, you may be right. But, then, Blizzard thought it was "cool" and wanted to see more of it...
Where did Blizzard say that +shield damage for siege tanks will not happen?
Something a while ago about not having multiple attributes (e.g. + vs armour/+ vs shields and so on). DB said it in an interview a while ago. Of course, they might revisit that decision. I hope they don't though. It would make Biomech OP against Protoss, IMO (unless handled carefully, maybe, with a return of siege tank research and the anti-shield shell also researchable). But, then I am not really a fan of ST based mech in SC2. It's not going to be the return of positional play a la BW as the economies allow max-out too early. Instead it will be a turtle bore fest which is the opposite of what Blizzard says they want for the game.
You don't know before at least some tests. Buffing the tank won't make it more mobile, and everyone know that's the big weakness of mech style, I refer you to Dayshi vs HerO on Frost, don't remember the tourney tho. Dayshi was well into the game before HerO decided to play the harass card, with WP and runby. HerO had a shitty composition to deal against Dayshi's Mech, so he wasn't able to take straight up fight. So in fact, if the terran player decide to go mech, the role will reverse, with the protoss having to multi harass and the terran will have to defend till he reachs a good enough army to attack. If you think PvT is balance at the moment, I don't see why switching role wouldn't be either.
On January 05 2014 05:54 Kestnuts wrote: That was kind of rude. You don't get to say who's allowed to judge what. I've played both races at least to a diamond level and I think mech is less difficult to play than whatever zerg has to do to beat it. It's a lot more mechanically demanding to beat than it is to execute. I don't know why more players don't use it, besides the benefit of meta gaming your opponent, who normally expects a 4m push, it's ridiculously cost efficient and extremely difficult to kill once the terran is maxed. I'm not saying anybody that plays mech is bad, i just don't think it should be possible for any race or unit comp to wall in on 3 bases and let your opponent take the rest of the map, and still have anything better than a snowballs chance in hell of winning. At that point your opponent should be able to just remax again and again and wear you down no matter what you're doing. This goes deeper than unit comps, it's a game design issue that I find deeply frustrating.
You said you didn't play Terran since WOL? Things have surely changed since then and people got much much better. If you think 3 bases mech is unbeatable then you have no idea what you're talking about, you can't safely transition into sky until 4 bases and even then it's still hard because you'll be too spread out.
So all in all, you just don't know how to deal against mech, but don't take your case an universal evidence of mech being easier than bio.
This is spot on, if you're bad at dealing with mech and don't wanna put in the effort to get good at it (it's a lot of effort,I know, it's hard to even find practice on it, because of how bad it is) then it's ok, but don't go around shouting that the style that sees no use in pro-play (and it's current state it won't) and that a handful of people on the ladder use is "OP" or "too easy to execute".
On January 05 2014 05:54 Kestnuts wrote: That was kind of rude. You don't get to say who's allowed to judge what. I've played both races at least to a diamond level and I think mech is less difficult to play than whatever zerg has to do to beat it. It's a lot more mechanically demanding to beat than it is to execute. I don't know why more players don't use it, besides the benefit of meta gaming your opponent, who normally expects a 4m push, it's ridiculously cost efficient and extremely difficult to kill once the terran is maxed. I'm not saying anybody that plays mech is bad, i just don't think it should be possible for any race or unit comp to wall in on 3 bases and let your opponent take the rest of the map, and still have anything better than a snowballs chance in hell of winning. At that point your opponent should be able to just remax again and again and wear you down no matter what you're doing. This goes deeper than unit comps, it's a game design issue that I find deeply frustrating.
You said you didn't play Terran since WOL? Things have surely changed since then and people got much much better. If you think 3 bases mech is unbeatable then you have no idea what you're talking about, you can't safely transition into sky until 4 bases and even then it's still hard because you'll be too spread out.
So all in all, you just don't know how to deal against mech, but don't take your case an universal evidence of mech being easier than bio.
This is spot on, if you're bad at dealing with mech and don't wanna put in the effort to get good at it (it's a lot of effort,I know, it's hard to even find practice on it, because of how bad it is) then it's ok, but don't go around shouting that the style that sees no use in pro-play (and it's current state it won't) and that a handful of people on the ladder use is "OP" or "too easy to execute".
I still occasionally play terran unranked, and I prefer to play mech when I do. It's just easier. I see where you could get that I think it's unbeatable from my last post, but at that point I was trying to make a general point that I think turtling styles are too strong in sc2. Sorry for the confusion. I got a fair amount of practice dealing with Mech when HoTS first came out, and then again after the recent upgrade buff. I'm nowhere near 100% at beating it, but I do better than 60%. It's just frustrating to play out a 45 minute game, and at the end, watch the replay and find out the terran had 1/3rd of the actions because the turtle mech style doesn't require you to be very fast. Now the more active style that involves a lot of dropping and poking at your opponent, I have no problem with. That style's really fun to play against, even though it's probably harder to beat when executed well. I don't know, I'm hung over and I feel like I'm not expressing my point very well.
I just watched the replay of my match against the last Zerg that BM'd me after a 40minute game(most of them do). The guy didn't even hotkey his units, I use 3 or 4 hotkeys for my final army and I know of other high lvl mechers (such as Dzerzhynsky) that use even more, I know the micro of my units inside out (it's not as easy as a-moving a protoss army for example), most zergs don't even split their units or even realize that you can run away from seekers, hell, I've seen Zergs in MASTER LEAGUE cast blinding cloud on Vikings.
So, you're mad that a person with less APM beats you? This game is not Dance Dance Revolution, feeling entitled to win the game just because you spammed units and spread a lot of creep is bs, the last zerg I beat had 200apm but didnt even hotkey his army, he was just spamming shit and BMing me after I raped him.
Also, there's no full "agressive" mech, I use a lot of Thor drops and Hellion->Hellbat runbys to kill expos and tech but against people that know what they're doing these kind of moves are not even POSSIBLE so sometimes all I can do is turtle into 4 or 5 bases and have to play a harder drawn out game.
Me and others have explained to you that it's not as easy as it looks to play high lvl mech but still, your posts just sound like QQing.
On January 05 2014 07:23 fried_rice wrote: I just watched the replay of my match against the last Zerg that BM'd me after a 40minute game(most of them do). The guy didn't even hotkey his units, I use 3 or 4 hotkeys for my final army and I know of other high lvl mechers (such as Dzerzhynsky) that use even more, I know the micro of my units inside out (it's not as easy as a-moving a protoss army for example), most zergs don't even split their units or even realize that you can run away from seekers, hell, I've seen Zergs in MASTER LEAGUE cast blinding cloud on Vikings.
So, you're mad that a person with less APM beats you? This game is not Dance Dance Revolution, feeling entitled to win the game just because you spammed units and spread a lot of creep is bs, the last zerg I beat had 200apm but didnt even hotkey his army, he was just spamming shit and BMing me after I raped him.
Also, there's no full "agressive" mech, I use a lot of Thor drops and Hellion->Hellbat runbys to kill expos and tech but against people that know what they're doing these kind of moves are not even POSSIBLE so sometimes all I can do is turtle into 4 or 5 bases and have to play a harder drawn out game.
Me and others have explained to you that it's not as easy as it looks to play high lvl mech but still, your posts just sound like QQing.
...are you forgetting the part where I PLAY THIS STYLE WHEN I PLAY TERRAN? When I want to play less intense or maybe have a snack while I play (therefore not having full use of both hands) I play Terran mech unranked. I have not played terran as ranked since WoL, which I did not make clear in my first post. I'm not a spammy player other than early game when there's nothing to do, and I still hover around 210apm on average, even against mech. jesus, post an opinion and it turns into an internet dick-waving competition here, now I remember why I just lurk and never post.
If we get this the game will be more rewarding to players that can spread themselfs over the map in order to gain a larger mineral income. At the moment you NEVER benefit mineral income from having more then 3 bases and this is not good for gameplay at all.
This is because due to the supply cap you never have Workers enough to mine minerals from more then 3 bases at once.
So yea one major change i'd like to see in SC2 is fewer mineral nodes per base and I think that this would be a huge leap in a possitive direction for SC2 gameplay overall.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
Yes, actually Koreans not using mech is a sign that its trash and unworkable in TvP. Consider that the Koreans have team houses where they can practice one single strategy in a single MU over and over and over again if they want to perfect it, and then they grind tons of ladder with it to give it trial by fire. There are far more Korean terrans playing the game overall, they are way higher skilled then foreign terrans, their competition and team mates are way more skilled and organized then foreigners and to top it off they practice way, way way more per day.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
If no Koreans use it, it means precisely that it is trash and unstable (at pro level), regardless of what an NA GM player with 0 tournament showings has "proven". GoOdy was wining tournaments in WOL by playing mech exclusively yet no one was dumb enough to claim that was evidence for mech being viable.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
If things are in real life the way you described them in your post then why isn't a single Korean pro using this imba strat and destroying the protoss GMs? You should write to Blizzard that instead of nerfing Protoss, which clearly cannot handle your described mech army, they should buff it?
Did you stopped for a minute after typing your post to check if things are really the way you presented them?
It's obvious to all that tried it that mech ATM cannot handle Protoss. Is warhound/haywire missiles the only viable answer considering SC2 design limitations? Are there small fixes to existent units that could be made to empower mech? I'd say let Blizzard figure it out but until that time that the changes go live then stop pretending that mech already is on the same level with Protoss.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
If no Koreans use it, it means precisely that it is trash and unstable (at pro level), regardless of what an NA GM player with 0 tournament showings has "proven". GoOdy was wining tournaments in WOL by playing mech exclusively yet no one was dumb enough to claim that was evidence for mech being viable.
Putting mech in a box to where it's only "mech" units is pretty retarded. Why can't terran come up with a strategy that utilizes or can draw from every unit at their disposal? Ruling out those units before you even begin the game already puts you at a disadvantage. Just like saying "Protoss have PO so Terran can't do any agression" is already putting you at a disadvantage, because PO isn't a save all or stop all ability. You can't PO the whole map, you can't PO everybase in the early game, and PO doesn't last forever, and MSC doesn't spawn with enough energy to cast it.
Watching the TvP matchup in recent Pro matches, it's actually extremely balanced and results have shown this as well, just look at the matchup in Proleague atm. There's a lot of people overreacting and it's really annoying that Blizzard is going to even suggest making changes based on the whining of "fans" instead of actual research. I'm hoping they won't do anything stupid.
Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote: Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes.
On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote: Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes.
Any competent terran defense won't lose more than 7-8 SCVs either versus protoss cheeses, it's all about catching your opponent off guard.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
If no Koreans use it, it means precisely that it is trash and unstable (at pro level), regardless of what an NA GM player with 0 tournament showings has "proven". GoOdy was wining tournaments in WOL by playing mech exclusively yet no one was dumb enough to claim that was evidence for mech being viable.
Putting mech in a box to where it's only "mech" units is pretty retarded. Why can't terran come up with a strategy that utilizes or can draw from every unit at their disposal? Ruling out those units before you even begin the game already puts you at a disadvantage. Just like saying "Protoss have PO so Terran can't do any agression" is already putting you at a disadvantage, because PO isn't a save all or stop all ability. You can't PO the whole map, you can't PO everybase in the early game, and PO doesn't last forever, and MSC doesn't spawn with enough energy to cast it.
Watching the TvP matchup in recent Pro matches, it's actually extremely balanced and results have shown this as well, just look at the matchup in Proleague atm. There's a lot of people overreacting and it's really annoying that Blizzard is going to even suggest making changes based on the whining of "fans" instead of actual research. I'm hoping they won't do anything stupid.
Did you quote the wrong post? I didn't say anything about using what units nor about TvP balance.
As far as why don't Terran come up with strategies that utilizes every unit, you have 2 choices. 1)play as Terran at a decent level and you will find out 2)trust the pros that they know better then you
On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote: Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
u know the build was there before hots came out and protoss dealt with it fine wo photon overc, stats just handled it badly
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
Yes, actually Koreans not using mech is a sign that its trash and unworkable in TvP. Consider that the Koreans have team houses where they can practice one single strategy in a single MU over and over and over again if they want to perfect it, and then they grind tons of ladder with it to give it trial by fire. There are far more Korean terrans playing the game overall, they are way higher skilled then foreign terrans, their competition and team mates are way more skilled and organized then foreigners and to top it off they practice way, way way more per day.
I'm not saying it is better than bio at korean levels. I'm sure koreans with their sick multiasking and APM can better utilize bio in a way that makes it seem unstoppable, like TY vs sOs today. What makes them want to commit 1000's of hours into a new way of playing? Which brings me to my next point:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
If things are in real life the way you described them in your post then why isn't a single Korean pro using this imba strat and destroying the protoss GMs? You should write to Blizzard that instead of nerfing Protoss, which clearly cannot handle your described mech army, they should buff it?
Did you stopped for a minute after typing your post to check if things are really the way you presented them?
It's obvious to all that tried it that mech ATM cannot handle Protoss. Is warhound/haywire missiles the only viable answer considering SC2 design limitations? Are there small fixes to existent units that could be made to empower mech? I'd say let Blizzard figure it out but until that time that the changes go live then stop pretending that mech already is on the same level with Protoss.
I am not saying in any way that mech is "an imba strat" in any way shape or form. I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder. And that just because koreans don't use it, doesn't instantly mean you can't use it on ladder either. Instead of whining for balance changes and dismissing anything that isn't used by your glorious korean gods, maybe just try it and make it work. Because until you get to the top of GM, it is proven that it is viable. You don't have to wait for koreans before you try new stuff yourself. You can make your own playstyle if you want to make it work.
Also, Maru just used mech vs protoss. Not in the way we are discussing here, but he was certainly using it. Does this mean it is now viable because your korean gods used it?
On January 05 2014 03:30 lukem wrote: I hope everyone is keeping in mind how much these changes will ultimately effect Allins specifically reviving the 1/1/1. All of these changes need to be an upgrade at the armory or something.. You could go with the + dmg to shields but at the very least make it somewhat mid to late game upgrade to prevent this from just being a straight allin buff. Maybe I'm just terrible but good terrans who don't use their ghosts sloppy create some of the most fun matches by having that late game micro battle.
Also I have no idea why po is being nerfed instead of the absolutely insane oracle. I play toss and that unit is stupid
Everybody instantly screams 1/1/1 the second there's talking about a buff to any of Terrans units - will you keep in mind Overcharge gives you 120/80 seconds of free teching and unit producing, Maps are much larger, you start with much better vision, Hallucination gives a better scout, etc. Buffing tanks won't mean 1/1/1 is suddenly unbeatable, thinking 1/1/1 is a strong argument to not buff anything Terran is pretty stupid.
On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote: Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes.
Same goes for banshee openigns in wol (not viable anymore due to photon overcharge), wol style hellion/marine/medivac pushes, widow mine drops, dt openings and oracles.
In wol it was terran that had infinity one base openings that were viable while toss was forced into 1gate fe into 3gate robo every game (except on blink friendly maps). I don't mind that things have changed.
Most importantly, the whole goal of the msc is to give toss players a strong defender's advantage to circumvent the glorious pieces of shit in game design that are warpgates and sentries. Removing that means putting toss closer to the "either play super passive or super cheesy" shit we've seen for years, so it's not a simple fix at all.
On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote: Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes.
Any competent terran defense won't lose more than 7-8 SCVs either versus protoss cheeses, it's all about catching your opponent off guard.
In that game Stats made a terrible read based off what he saw to the point where I wonder why he even bothered scouting in the first place if it wasn't going to affect his build at all.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
I've entirely switched back to BW now but still keep up to date with the SC2 patches and what have you but the main issue with going mech TvP (which I did in every single game since the beggining of the WoL beta) is that against pretty much every race, due to the weakness of mech you're playing from behind every single game and at a tournament level that isn't necessarily a viable thing to do. Mech needs to be stronger to allow not only faster timing pushes but also have the ability to defend your bases atleast for a little bit without needing to have every single unit you have in a huge clump or you die.
On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote: Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes.
Same goes for banshee openigns in wol (not viable anymore due to photon overcharge), wol style hellion/marine/medivac pushes, widow mine drops, dt openings and oracles.
In wol it was terran that had infinity one base openings that were viable while toss was forced into 1gate fe into 3gate robo every game (except on blink friendly maps). I don't mind that things have changed.
Most importantly, the whole goal of the msc is to give toss players a strong defender's advantage to circumvent the glorious pieces of !@#$%^&* in game design that are warpgates and sentries. Removing that means putting toss closer to the "either play super passive or super cheesy" !@#$%^&* we've seen for years, so it's not a simple fix at all.
Not really true. Starport openings really weren't viable in WOL either. You may be thinking about 2010 where ppl had no idea how to play.
On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote: Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
Yes, all the lazy player play terrans... The real problem is lazy protoss players that think they can't play without a 60 second PO. Oh no, 1 of my PvP builds will no longer work vs aggressive openings, what will I do?
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
I've entirely switched back to BW now but still keep up to date with the SC2 patches and what have you but the main issue with going mech TvP (which I did in every single game since the beggining of the WoL beta) is that against pretty much every race, due to the weakness of mech you're playing from behind every single game and at a tournament level that isn't necessarily a viable thing to do. Mech needs to be stronger to allow not only faster timing pushes but also have the ability to defend your bases atleast for a little bit without needing to have every single unit you have in a huge clump or you die.
Which brings us back to the entire problem in SC2: Positional play is not rewarded as 'good positioning' means having all your units at the same location at the same time, deathball > non-deathball and thus you always lose when not deathballing. This, combined with the 3 base income cap makes for 3 base deathball games.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
Yes, actually Koreans not using mech is a sign that its trash and unworkable in TvP. Consider that the Koreans have team houses where they can practice one single strategy in a single MU over and over and over again if they want to perfect it, and then they grind tons of ladder with it to give it trial by fire. There are far more Korean terrans playing the game overall, they are way higher skilled then foreign terrans, their competition and team mates are way more skilled and organized then foreigners and to top it off they practice way, way way more per day.
I'm not saying it is better than bio at korean levels. I'm sure koreans with their sick multiasking and APM can better utilize bio in a way that makes it seem unstoppable, like TY vs sOs today. What makes them want to commit 1000's of hours into a new way of playing? Which brings me to my next point:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
If things are in real life the way you described them in your post then why isn't a single Korean pro using this imba strat and destroying the protoss GMs? You should write to Blizzard that instead of nerfing Protoss, which clearly cannot handle your described mech army, they should buff it?
Did you stopped for a minute after typing your post to check if things are really the way you presented them?
It's obvious to all that tried it that mech ATM cannot handle Protoss. Is warhound/haywire missiles the only viable answer considering SC2 design limitations? Are there small fixes to existent units that could be made to empower mech? I'd say let Blizzard figure it out but until that time that the changes go live then stop pretending that mech already is on the same level with Protoss.
I am not saying in any way that mech is "an imba strat" in any way shape or form. I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder. And that just because koreans don't use it, doesn't instantly mean you can't use it on ladder either. Instead of whining for balance changes and dismissing anything that isn't used by your glorious korean gods, maybe just try it and make it work. Because until you get to the top of GM, it is proven that it is viable. You don't have to wait for koreans before you try new stuff yourself. You can make your own playstyle if you want to make it work.
Also, Maru just used mech vs protoss. Not in the way we are discussing here, but he was certainly using it. Does this mean it is now viable because your korean gods used it?
Who the fuck cares about ladder bellow GM/High Master? Seriously, thats the stupidest argument I've heard. Everything bellow that is irrelevant because, people bellow that threshold can't play properly, either they can't micro well enough to be cost efficient to win fights they should win, or they can't macro enough to make enough units to win fights at certain times they need to win.
Yeah sure, I could play turtle mech, but that doesn't prove shit, it doesn't prove that I made it work, nor that its viable, the ladder will always try to work towards me having a 50% win rate so my games will either be stomps where I beat people who have no clue how to beat mech then get stomped by players much better then me, either in terms of mechanics or knowledge of how to handle mech.
And Maru didn't win going mech. He won trough harass, the game was nearly over when he killed the first 18 probes, the following 6 he killed where the nail in the coffin for Stats, that game doesn't prove shit. He could have gone follow up bio and still won, hell he could have turtled to Sky terran and probably still have won, that is how far ahead he was.. It also doesn't prove anything because that sort of play is frequently shut down by Korean protoss, but Stats somehow botched it and managed to look bad in the process.
Instead of strawmaning my arguments why don't you address them head on? Why don't you explain to me why Koreans don't play mech vs protoss, why after years of training, with all the resoruces and knowledge, they haven't been able to innovate it and make it viable at the highest level? Oh you can't, because you know I'm right, you know its crap, it isn't viable outside the niche of catching your opponent off guard and hoping he doesn't know how to handle it. So instead you deflect with stupid and pointless arguments, like players that haven't ever won a tournaments use it on ladder with great success? How is that even relevant to the pro SC2 scene that we are discussing here?
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
I've entirely switched back to BW now but still keep up to date with the SC2 patches and what have you but the main issue with going mech TvP (which I did in every single game since the beggining of the WoL beta) is that against pretty much every race, due to the weakness of mech you're playing from behind every single game and at a tournament level that isn't necessarily a viable thing to do. Mech needs to be stronger to allow not only faster timing pushes but also have the ability to defend your bases atleast for a little bit without needing to have every single unit you have in a huge clump or you die.
Which brings us back to the entire problem in SC2: Positional play is not rewarded as 'good positioning' means having all your units at the same location at the same time, deathball > non-deathball and thus you always lose when not deathballing. This, combined with the 3 base income cap makes for 3 base deathball games.
That's completely untrue for most scenarios. You want to split units against bio drops. You want to split units as bio to harass. You want to have mutalisks running berserk away from the rest of your units. You want to roam the map with zerglings. You want to setup small counterattacks as zerg with zerglings and roaches. You want to do zealot runbies and harass. You want your phoenixes roaming the map. You want your hellions roaming the map. You want....
But with Mech vs Protoss you don't have a choice, but to have all your units in one ball. Because it is too weak to split your army against Protoss. It has nothing to do with "SC2's design", it's purely because if you don't have a ball, the more mobile Protoss army just comes in and overruns the smaller parts of your army. And that is the whole problem of Mech TvP. It's viable if you don't make any mistakes and always have the perfect positioning. In reality though, if the Protoss plays active, scouts, harasses and uses various units, you won't have a ghost per immortal or a Raven+Viking per Tempest and you will be out of position more often than in position when the Protoss actually commits, since you cannot be in two locations at once.
On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote: Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes.
Same goes for banshee openigns in wol (not viable anymore due to photon overcharge), wol style hellion/marine/medivac pushes, widow mine drops, dt openings and oracles.
In wol it was terran that had infinity one base openings that were viable while toss was forced into 1gate fe into 3gate robo every game (except on blink friendly maps). I don't mind that things have changed.
Most importantly, the whole goal of the msc is to give toss players a strong defender's advantage to circumvent the glorious pieces of shit in game design that are warpgates and sentries. Removing that means putting toss closer to the "either play super passive or super cheesy" shit we've seen for years, so it's not a simple fix at all.
So you consider it fair that now the terran has only one build while the protoss has dozen of them ? Btw I know much more opening than "1g fe 3g robo". That was the "safe macro build" but if the terran wanted to open safe and macro, he just did rax expand double rax gaz. Opening banshee was pretty allinish considering that if you didn't do enough damage, you were far behind.
blizzard team is jerking off furiously to pro league right now. So happy they're promoting this playstyle, wow, it's gonna make it so much more fun both as a player and a viewer!
On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote: Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes.
Same goes for banshee openigns in wol (not viable anymore due to photon overcharge), wol style hellion/marine/medivac pushes, widow mine drops, dt openings and oracles.
In wol it was terran that had infinity one base openings that were viable while toss was forced into 1gate fe into 3gate robo every game (except on blink friendly maps). I don't mind that things have changed.
Most importantly, the whole goal of the msc is to give toss players a strong defender's advantage to circumvent the glorious pieces of shit in game design that are warpgates and sentries. Removing that means putting toss closer to the "either play super passive or super cheesy" shit we've seen for years, so it's not a simple fix at all.
In WoL, Protoss did have more practical openings vs a WoL Terran than Terran has right now against a HotS Protoss. With the exception of having no units at all or maybe just one or two, a decent Protoss should not die against any Terran before 10 minutes with Photon Overcharge. Any form of 2 rax, 1/1/1 or (cloak) banshee play are all dead. The 2 rax loses straight up in a Health/DPS race, 1/1/1 is mostly the same with an added vulnerability against Oracles if Vikings are not produced and Cloak Banshee is a coin flip, praying that Protoss did not build a Stargate or Robo.
At the same time, Protoss can throw a legion of 1 base attacks that don't even have to deal a lot of damage to put Protoss ahead because Protoss can expand behind them much earlier thanks to Photon Overcharge. A 1/1/1 push was much more risky for Terran and delayed the expansion much more than several 1 base builds that Protoss currently have at their disposal. Trying to counter a 1 base attack from Protoss with a single Medivac drop? Photon Overcharge says no. The MSC also added in a super early Air unit that can attack and provide vision to the high ground. Blink Stalker plays have become much more deadly purely due to the MSC itself.
Furthermore, the shear threat of Oracles is such that if you don't have 6 marines or an Engineering Bay and Turret complete by 5:00, you are essentially coinflipping unless you were able to 100% rule out Oracle play through scouting.
Now I'm fine with Protoss having a ton of aggressive options, but Terran should have them as well and that is currently not the case in the slightest, all of which revolve around the exact same thing, Photon Overcharge. The existence of Oracles alone already heavily modified Terran's options in the early game, the Oracle did not exist in WoL so it isn't entirely accurate to say that changing Photon Overcharge will revert PvT early game to what it was in WoL. As it is, I find it painful to see just how greedy Protoss can play having barely a handful of units and a MSC and then easily surviving any aggression.
For me, I would change the following: Reduce the range of Photon Overcharge to 9. Increase the energy cost to 125.
The range reduction means a single Photon Overcharge on your natural doesn't immediately make you safe against everything near your base and it makes the ramp to the main more vulnerable. In the main, not all your buildings will be secured anymore against Marines and Marauders. Protoss will needs atleast *some* units in order to hold off such aggression.
The energy cost increase is to remove the double safety net of 'oh, he went and dropped in my main after forcing a PO on my natural, guess I'll PO the main as well'. It also means Protoss can no longer recall and PO instantly at the same time.
The other annoyance is that there is no downside, no cost to using a Photon Overcharge. In WoL I usually opened with a Banshee as it was a relatively safe opening (1/1/1) that could adapt to what Protoss was doing and it somewhat held Protoss back in their base. (currently Protoss does not have to adapt much (if at all) to what Terran does in the early game thanks to PO) The Banshee opening didn't have a lot of Bio or an early expand so it had its drawbacks, which is currently what I feel is missing from Protoss. There is no downside to an MSC or a Photon Overcharge. Nor is there a downside to playing supergreedy behind a Photon Overcharge.
Maybe a different change would be that you cannot make Probes on an Overcharged Nexus. That way at least, there is an economic cost to using it.
Should Protoss fear Terran in the early game? Ofcourse they should. Every player should fear that their opponent is going for early 1 base aggression until you scout otherwise. In WoL I didn't ever feel 100% safe and cozy against my Protoss opponents. I felt comfortable knowing my Banshee opening would scout such aggression, but if Protoss actually did throw a 4gate or 3gate Stargate in my face, I had to act quickly to not die to it. 2rax openings similarly could backfire horribly against a 4gate.
I think many Protoss players fearing a nerf of the MSC should look to what the Oracle and the MSC itself have already done in TvP merely by existing. Both sides should be able to be aggressive and both sides should be able to hold it off IF you scout and adapt properly. The circle of Aggression -> Greed -> Defensive -> Aggression is currently rather broken in TvP.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
Yes, actually Koreans not using mech is a sign that its trash and unworkable in TvP. Consider that the Koreans have team houses where they can practice one single strategy in a single MU over and over and over again if they want to perfect it, and then they grind tons of ladder with it to give it trial by fire. There are far more Korean terrans playing the game overall, they are way higher skilled then foreign terrans, their competition and team mates are way more skilled and organized then foreigners and to top it off they practice way, way way more per day.
I'm not saying it is better than bio at korean levels. I'm sure koreans with their sick multiasking and APM can better utilize bio in a way that makes it seem unstoppable, like TY vs sOs today. What makes them want to commit 1000's of hours into a new way of playing? Which brings me to my next point:
On January 05 2014 20:35 Kakaru2 wrote:
On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
If things are in real life the way you described them in your post then why isn't a single Korean pro using this imba strat and destroying the protoss GMs? You should write to Blizzard that instead of nerfing Protoss, which clearly cannot handle your described mech army, they should buff it?
Did you stopped for a minute after typing your post to check if things are really the way you presented them?
It's obvious to all that tried it that mech ATM cannot handle Protoss. Is warhound/haywire missiles the only viable answer considering SC2 design limitations? Are there small fixes to existent units that could be made to empower mech? I'd say let Blizzard figure it out but until that time that the changes go live then stop pretending that mech already is on the same level with Protoss.
I am not saying in any way that mech is "an imba strat" in any way shape or form. I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder. And that just because koreans don't use it, doesn't instantly mean you can't use it on ladder either. Instead of whining for balance changes and dismissing anything that isn't used by your glorious korean gods, maybe just try it and make it work. Because until you get to the top of GM, it is proven that it is viable. You don't have to wait for koreans before you try new stuff yourself. You can make your own playstyle if you want to make it work.
Also, Maru just used mech vs protoss. Not in the way we are discussing here, but he was certainly using it. Does this mean it is now viable because your korean gods used it?
Who the fuck cares about ladder bellow GM/High Master? Seriously, thats the stupidest argument I've heard. Everything bellow that is irrelevant because, people bellow that threshold can't play properly, either they can't micro well enough to be cost efficient to win fights they should win, or they can't macro enough to make enough units to win fights at certain times they need to win.
Yeah sure, I could play turtle mech, but that doesn't prove shit, it doesn't prove that I made it work, nor that its viable, the ladder will always try to work towards me having a 50% win rate so my games will either be stomps where I beat people who have no clue how to beat mech then get stomped by players much better then me, either in terms of mechanics or knowledge of how to handle mech.
And Maru didn't win going mech. He won trough harass, the game was nearly over when he killed the first 18 probes, the following 6 he killed where the nail in the coffin for Stats, that game doesn't prove shit. He could have gone follow up bio and still won, hell he could have turtled to Sky terran and probably still have won, that is how far ahead he was.. It also doesn't prove anything because that sort of play is frequently shut down by Korean protoss, but Stats somehow botched it and managed to look bad in the process.
Instead of strawmaning my arguments why don't you address them head on? Why don't you explain to me why Koreans don't play mech vs protoss, why after years of training, with all the resoruces and knowledge, they haven't been able to innovate it and make it viable at the highest level? Oh you can't, because you know I'm right, you know its crap, it isn't viable outside the niche of catching your opponent off guard and hoping he doesn't know how to handle it. So instead you deflect with stupid and pointless arguments, like players that haven't ever won a tournaments use it on ladder with great success? How is that even relevant to the pro SC2 scene that we are discussing here?
wowwowwow, don't get so agitated mate. I was never talking about the pro scene, which you could see in my last post because i'm saying "I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder". even if the top koreans don't use the strategy. I'm pretty sure bio is better at the level of top koreans because of increased microability, but that doesn't mean it's also instantly the only possible way to play.
I'm saying this because a lot of balance whiners take "top koreans don't use it" as an argument as to why they can't use it. And that is just factually untrue, as shown in my previous posts. that's my point.
I wonder when David Kim realises, that it´s not PO that makes MSC absolutely broken. I mean, Timewarp lasts 30seconds, that´s totally fair I guess. MSC is absolutely fine, when used defensively for PO. It just plays a completely retarded role in Protoss allins.
I wonder when David Kim realises, that it´s not PO that makes MSC absolutely broken. I mean, Timewarp lasts 30seconds, that´s totally fair I guess. MSC is absolutely fine, when used defensively for PO. It just plays a completely retarded role in Protoss allins.
I agree with this statement. Using the Msc offensively, like in blink stalker all-ins, is pretty crazy. It's so much faster than the blink stalker all-ins back in WoL, which required observers.
I wonder when David Kim realises, that it´s not PO that makes MSC absolutely broken. I mean, Timewarp lasts 30seconds, that´s totally fair I guess. MSC is absolutely fine, when used defensively for PO. It just plays a completely retarded role in Protoss allins.
I agree with this statement. Using the Msc offensively, like in blink stalker all-ins, is pretty crazy. It's so much faster than the blink stalker all-ins back in WoL, which required observers.
This is the main point. DK doesn't care about the all-ins.
I wonder when David Kim realises, that it´s not PO that makes MSC absolutely broken. I mean, Timewarp lasts 30seconds, that´s totally fair I guess. MSC is absolutely fine, when used defensively for PO. It just plays a completely retarded role in Protoss allins.
I agree with this statement. Using the Msc offensively, like in blink stalker all-ins, is pretty crazy. It's so much faster than the blink stalker all-ins back in WoL, which required observers.
I wonder what would happen if the cost of Msc was simply increased? That would make it less strong both offensively and defensively.
I wonder when David Kim realises, that it´s not PO that makes MSC absolutely broken. I mean, Timewarp lasts 30seconds, that´s totally fair I guess. MSC is absolutely fine, when used defensively for PO. It just plays a completely retarded role in Protoss allins.
I agree with this statement. Using the Msc offensively, like in blink stalker all-ins, is pretty crazy. It's so much faster than the blink stalker all-ins back in WoL, which required observers.
This is the main point. DK doesn't care about the all-ins.
If I added the swarm host to the game, and I was buffing mech, I'd be afraid of games going longer than 10 minutes, too. As bad of a viewing experience as this can end up being, they should buff all-ins some more and implement a timer, where you have to kill your opponent before 12 minutes or you have to regame... Would keep the game crazy, action packed!
If time warp were 10 seconds, I'd still wonder if I needed that and if it were too long... a nerf to it would really only affect p vs p, unless maybe you're an all-in player. Even if it were to affect p vs p, at least this change doesn't hurt your ability to make it past the 7 minute mark, unlike like the proposed PO change. But, ofc, that would go against creating "action."
I'd love to see David Kim get fired, just so he can then enter some SC 2 tournaments. Hitman would probably have some competition for cheesiest all-in player. You'd probably see David Kim begging on forums to nerf all defensive structures.
If you want to tone down Protoss early game, how about nerfing MSC vision? MSC has like 11 sight range. It is ridiculous. Turn that down to 5-6 so that way it has to be near the cliff to support the stalkers. MSC doesn't need massive sight range to function as a mobile town portal.
On January 06 2014 04:40 CannonsNCarriers wrote: If you want to tone down Protoss early game, how about nerfing MSC vision? MSC has like 11 sight range. It is ridiculous. Turn that down to 5-6 so that way it has to be near the cliff to support the stalkers. MSC doesn't need massive sight range to function as a mobile town portal.
I agree with the ppl suggesting MsC vision gets reduced rather than this PO duration nerf. I would also like to see energy cost for all the MsC abilites to go up. Timewarp could use a duration nerf aswell
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
Yes, actually Koreans not using mech is a sign that its trash and unworkable in TvP. Consider that the Koreans have team houses where they can practice one single strategy in a single MU over and over and over again if they want to perfect it, and then they grind tons of ladder with it to give it trial by fire. There are far more Korean terrans playing the game overall, they are way higher skilled then foreign terrans, their competition and team mates are way more skilled and organized then foreigners and to top it off they practice way, way way more per day.
I'm not saying it is better than bio at korean levels. I'm sure koreans with their sick multiasking and APM can better utilize bio in a way that makes it seem unstoppable, like TY vs sOs today. What makes them want to commit 1000's of hours into a new way of playing? Which brings me to my next point:
On January 05 2014 20:35 Kakaru2 wrote:
On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
If things are in real life the way you described them in your post then why isn't a single Korean pro using this imba strat and destroying the protoss GMs? You should write to Blizzard that instead of nerfing Protoss, which clearly cannot handle your described mech army, they should buff it?
Did you stopped for a minute after typing your post to check if things are really the way you presented them?
It's obvious to all that tried it that mech ATM cannot handle Protoss. Is warhound/haywire missiles the only viable answer considering SC2 design limitations? Are there small fixes to existent units that could be made to empower mech? I'd say let Blizzard figure it out but until that time that the changes go live then stop pretending that mech already is on the same level with Protoss.
I am not saying in any way that mech is "an imba strat" in any way shape or form. I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder. And that just because koreans don't use it, doesn't instantly mean you can't use it on ladder either. Instead of whining for balance changes and dismissing anything that isn't used by your glorious korean gods, maybe just try it and make it work. Because until you get to the top of GM, it is proven that it is viable. You don't have to wait for koreans before you try new stuff yourself. You can make your own playstyle if you want to make it work.
Also, Maru just used mech vs protoss. Not in the way we are discussing here, but he was certainly using it. Does this mean it is now viable because your korean gods used it?
Who the fuck cares about ladder bellow GM/High Master? Seriously, thats the stupidest argument I've heard. Everything bellow that is irrelevant because, people bellow that threshold can't play properly, either they can't micro well enough to be cost efficient to win fights they should win, or they can't macro enough to make enough units to win fights at certain times they need to win.
Yeah sure, I could play turtle mech, but that doesn't prove shit, it doesn't prove that I made it work, nor that its viable, the ladder will always try to work towards me having a 50% win rate so my games will either be stomps where I beat people who have no clue how to beat mech then get stomped by players much better then me, either in terms of mechanics or knowledge of how to handle mech.
And Maru didn't win going mech. He won trough harass, the game was nearly over when he killed the first 18 probes, the following 6 he killed where the nail in the coffin for Stats, that game doesn't prove shit. He could have gone follow up bio and still won, hell he could have turtled to Sky terran and probably still have won, that is how far ahead he was.. It also doesn't prove anything because that sort of play is frequently shut down by Korean protoss, but Stats somehow botched it and managed to look bad in the process.
Instead of strawmaning my arguments why don't you address them head on? Why don't you explain to me why Koreans don't play mech vs protoss, why after years of training, with all the resoruces and knowledge, they haven't been able to innovate it and make it viable at the highest level? Oh you can't, because you know I'm right, you know its crap, it isn't viable outside the niche of catching your opponent off guard and hoping he doesn't know how to handle it. So instead you deflect with stupid and pointless arguments, like players that haven't ever won a tournaments use it on ladder with great success? How is that even relevant to the pro SC2 scene that we are discussing here?
wowwowwow, don't get so agitated mate. I was never talking about the pro scene, which you could see in my last post because i'm saying "I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder". even if the top koreans don't use the strategy. I'm pretty sure bio is better at the level of top koreans because of increased microability, but that doesn't mean it's also instantly the only possible way to play.
I'm saying this because a lot of balance whiners take "top koreans don't use it" as an argument as to why they can't use it. And that is just factually untrue, as shown in my previous posts. that's my point.
I'm not agitated, but I just don't see the point of your posts when its clear that what we are all discussing here is the viability of strategies at the pro level of play.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
Yes, actually Koreans not using mech is a sign that its trash and unworkable in TvP. Consider that the Koreans have team houses where they can practice one single strategy in a single MU over and over and over again if they want to perfect it, and then they grind tons of ladder with it to give it trial by fire. There are far more Korean terrans playing the game overall, they are way higher skilled then foreign terrans, their competition and team mates are way more skilled and organized then foreigners and to top it off they practice way, way way more per day.
I'm not saying it is better than bio at korean levels. I'm sure koreans with their sick multiasking and APM can better utilize bio in a way that makes it seem unstoppable, like TY vs sOs today. What makes them want to commit 1000's of hours into a new way of playing? Which brings me to my next point:
On January 05 2014 20:35 Kakaru2 wrote:
On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas.
A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of.
On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him".
ghosts? have you tried using them?
Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas?
no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so.
Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
If things are in real life the way you described them in your post then why isn't a single Korean pro using this imba strat and destroying the protoss GMs? You should write to Blizzard that instead of nerfing Protoss, which clearly cannot handle your described mech army, they should buff it?
Did you stopped for a minute after typing your post to check if things are really the way you presented them?
It's obvious to all that tried it that mech ATM cannot handle Protoss. Is warhound/haywire missiles the only viable answer considering SC2 design limitations? Are there small fixes to existent units that could be made to empower mech? I'd say let Blizzard figure it out but until that time that the changes go live then stop pretending that mech already is on the same level with Protoss.
I am not saying in any way that mech is "an imba strat" in any way shape or form. I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder. And that just because koreans don't use it, doesn't instantly mean you can't use it on ladder either. Instead of whining for balance changes and dismissing anything that isn't used by your glorious korean gods, maybe just try it and make it work. Because until you get to the top of GM, it is proven that it is viable. You don't have to wait for koreans before you try new stuff yourself. You can make your own playstyle if you want to make it work.
Also, Maru just used mech vs protoss. Not in the way we are discussing here, but he was certainly using it. Does this mean it is now viable because your korean gods used it?
Who the fuck cares about ladder bellow GM/High Master? Seriously, thats the stupidest argument I've heard. Everything bellow that is irrelevant because, people bellow that threshold can't play properly, either they can't micro well enough to be cost efficient to win fights they should win, or they can't macro enough to make enough units to win fights at certain times they need to win.
Yeah sure, I could play turtle mech, but that doesn't prove shit, it doesn't prove that I made it work, nor that its viable, the ladder will always try to work towards me having a 50% win rate so my games will either be stomps where I beat people who have no clue how to beat mech then get stomped by players much better then me, either in terms of mechanics or knowledge of how to handle mech.
And Maru didn't win going mech. He won trough harass, the game was nearly over when he killed the first 18 probes, the following 6 he killed where the nail in the coffin for Stats, that game doesn't prove shit. He could have gone follow up bio and still won, hell he could have turtled to Sky terran and probably still have won, that is how far ahead he was.. It also doesn't prove anything because that sort of play is frequently shut down by Korean protoss, but Stats somehow botched it and managed to look bad in the process.
Instead of strawmaning my arguments why don't you address them head on? Why don't you explain to me why Koreans don't play mech vs protoss, why after years of training, with all the resoruces and knowledge, they haven't been able to innovate it and make it viable at the highest level? Oh you can't, because you know I'm right, you know its crap, it isn't viable outside the niche of catching your opponent off guard and hoping he doesn't know how to handle it. So instead you deflect with stupid and pointless arguments, like players that haven't ever won a tournaments use it on ladder with great success? How is that even relevant to the pro SC2 scene that we are discussing here?
wowwowwow, don't get so agitated mate. I was never talking about the pro scene, which you could see in my last post because i'm saying "I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder". even if the top koreans don't use the strategy. I'm pretty sure bio is better at the level of top koreans because of increased microability, but that doesn't mean it's also instantly the only possible way to play.
I'm saying this because a lot of balance whiners take "top koreans don't use it" as an argument as to why they can't use it. And that is just factually untrue, as shown in my previous posts. that's my point.
Most of the people that ask for mech buffs on TL have played and are playing mech in their ladder games. When one talks about "viable" strategies one talks about the pro level, mostly from a spectators perspective. And Koreans do not prefer bio because of "increased microability" but because that is the only thing that works. Where mech IS viable (eg. TvT) Koreans very often use it. The Kespa Terrans probably much prefer mech to the twich reflex bio anyway.
Meh, I wish they would address the current meta-game of oracle and blink all-ins. Every TvP I watch or play currently seems to involve either blink or oracle, especially at the pro level. Today´s Proleague was good example since all of the games included either blink or oracle. Is this really the kind of meta-game Blizzard wants to see in TvP?
This is what is forcing terrans to play in a very limited way, which is hurting the match-up.
On January 06 2014 04:42 Fjodorov wrote: I agree with the ppl suggesting MsC vision gets reduced rather than this PO duration nerf. I would also like to see energy cost for all the MsC abilites to go up. Timewarp could use a duration nerf aswell
That's quite a lot of nerf's to one unit at all once, I'd say that definitely isn't going to happen. Not to mention, while all you guys are complaining about the MSC, Terran's have been completely wiping out Protoss since the start of the 2014 pro circuit, just look at the results and it's extremely balanced right now. And Terran's have actually been switching things up for once!!!! whattya know doing the same thing over and over again is predictable and easily countered?!?!?! who woulda thunk it?
But anyway, in the ProLeague matches we even saw Terran aggression early on in about 50% of the matches, even one game before PO was even ready to cast and ended the game! Say whatt?!?! And the sOs vs TY game constant terran aggression and a revert back to the WoL-esque heavy marauder style against zealot/archon/storm was extremely powerful, especially sniping bases down in 10 seconds which PO has no effect on whatsoever. Another game we saw HeroMarine vs Harstem where he went heavy marauder/marine/medivac while mixing in Hellbats blueflame to deal with the mass zealots/storms soaking up damage and doing massive dps to clumps of zealots. So Terran's are starting to switch things up, and you are also seeing Terran's able to defend blink all-ins, I think 75% of the blink all-ins in ProLeague so far have been dealt with. It's almost obvious it's going to happen on certain maps and just preparing correctly (like any defense of early agression/cheese) allows you to survive if you execute properly. Terran's actually having to switch things up isn't a bad thing and does not justify nerfing a Protoss unit imo, it's barely been 2 months since Protoss won any major tournaments at the end of the year, and Terran's/zerg's as well I've forgotten to mention them, are already figuring them out and dong extremely well. Especially on the new map pool
I honestly think this is the most balanced the game has been in awhile now, we should just chill and not fuck anything up and make some major change that completely shifts the game. I would love to see a MSC sight-range nerf, that is logical and helps a lot, and would actually force Protoss to rethink bringing it along in every fight, or being super aggressive with it all the time imo. It's logical and not overly drastic and reactionary to just negative nancy's who should probably focus on their own gameplay before complaining about balance.
On January 06 2014 04:42 Fjodorov wrote: I agree with the ppl suggesting MsC vision gets reduced rather than this PO duration nerf. I would also like to see energy cost for all the MsC abilites to go up. Timewarp could use a duration nerf aswell
That's quite a lot of nerf's to one unit at all once, I'd say that definitely isn't going to happen. Not to mention, while all you guys are complaining about the MSC, Terran's have been completely wiping out Protoss since the start of the 2014 pro circuit, just look at the results and it's extremely balanced right now. And Terran's have actually been switching things up for once!!!! whattya know doing the same thing over and over again is predictable and easily countered?!?!?! who woulda thunk it?
But anyway, in the ProLeague matches we even saw Terran aggression early on in about 50% of the matches, even one game before PO was even ready to cast and ended the game! Say whatt?!?! And the sOs vs TY game constant terran aggression and a revert back to the WoL-esque heavy marauder style against zealot/archon/storm was extremely powerful, especially sniping bases down in 10 seconds which PO has no effect on whatsoever. Another game we saw HeroMarine vs Harstem where he went heavy marauder/marine/medivac while mixing in Hellbats blueflame to deal with the mass zealots/storms soaking up damage and doing massive dps to clumps of zealots. So Terran's are starting to switch things up, and you are also seeing Terran's able to defend blink all-ins, I think 75% of the blink all-ins in ProLeague so far have been dealt with. It's almost obvious it's going to happen on certain maps and just preparing correctly (like any defense of early agression/cheese) allows you to survive if you execute properly. Terran's actually having to switch things up isn't a bad thing and does not justify nerfing a Protoss unit imo, it's barely been 2 months since Protoss won any major tournaments at the end of the year, and Terran's/zerg's as well I've forgotten to mention them, are already figuring them out and dong extremely well. Especially on the new map pool
I honestly think this is the most balanced the game has been in awhile now, we should just chill and not fuck anything up and make some major change that completely shifts the game. I would love to see a MSC sight-range nerf, that is logical and helps a lot, and would actually force Protoss to rethink bringing it along in every fight, or being super aggressive with it all the time imo. It's logical and not overly drastic and reactionary to just negative nancy's who should probably focus on their own gameplay before complaining about balance.
/endrant
as I said, PO is totally fine. And 2014 is very young to call. Pro League generates a lot of imbalanced matches in terms of skill of the participating players. To take this into main account for a balance discussion is very questinable. And with the way sOs performed after his blizzcon win, you can definately say, that this was a well timed fluke by him. He played bretty badly before and after the tournament. He had his moment at the right time and there was quite some luck involved too. I wouldn´t take him as the excample of saying: "look! he is losing games! protoss is so weak!". There are so many protoss players I see much stronger atm than him.
I don't think PO is fine, it allow the protoss to play way too safe and greedy so he ends up teching much faster. The protoss should have more than one gate before teching to HT imo.
On January 06 2014 06:00 Faust852 wrote: I don't think PO is fine, it allow the protoss to play way too safe and greedy so he ends up teching much faster. The protoss should have more than one gate before teching to HT imo.
You cant tech to ht with storm with one gate. Not possible. I have a hard time holding the 10 min push while getting hts and +2 armor with anything less than 7 gates ready for when the push comes. I still have a hard time hitting the macro benchmarks and chronos for a proper ht and observer build with armor ups vs a well timed medivac pressure. Let alone a 5 rax before 3rd OC version.
On January 06 2014 06:00 Faust852 wrote: I don't think PO is fine, it allow the protoss to play way too safe and greedy so he ends up teching much faster. The protoss should have more than one gate before teching to HT imo.
You cant tech to ht with storm with one gate. Not possible. I have a hard time holding the 10 min push while getting hts and +2 armor with anything less than 7 gates ready for when the push comes. I still have a hard time hitting the macro benchmarks and chronos for a proper ht and observer build with armor ups vs a well timed medivac pressure. Let alone a 5 rax before 3rd OC version.
You probably don't do it well because you should be able to hold to 10 min 4 medivacs push with like 3/4 gates and some HTs. Man, 7 gates are close to be allin at this point.
tanks could use a larger aoe radius that only damages shields. Like increase the radius by 1 but any damage dealt in that radius is dealt only to shields.
Would help mech tremendously vs a balled up toss and wouldn't hurt tvz
A mech buff aside from anything that effects emp might be too strong vs zerg. I'd like to see Immortals hardened shield tweaked so the unit has less total shields but more HP instead. My only concern would be making Immortals weak to units other than siege tanks as well.
On January 06 2014 06:00 Faust852 wrote: I don't think PO is fine, it allow the protoss to play way too safe and greedy so he ends up teching much faster. The protoss should have more than one gate before teching to HT imo.
You cant tech to ht with storm with one gate. Not possible. I have a hard time holding the 10 min push while getting hts and +2 armor with anything less than 7 gates ready for when the push comes. I still have a hard time hitting the macro benchmarks and chronos for a proper ht and observer build with armor ups vs a well timed medivac pressure. Let alone a 5 rax before 3rd OC version.
but youre not pro so what you have trouble with doesnt matter.
I'm not sure what changes they can do to terran mech, but anything about buffing mech will be interesting and welcomed by me :D. Nerf on overcharge I agree with, and indifferent about the roach burrow speed...we'll just have to wait and see.
Straight-up buff to tank damage, maybe something shields-related too, and perhaps a longer siege time as compensation? Even with the latter it would still be a pretty big deal of a buff. If tanks could stand on their own a bit better it might encourage more active mech-play as opposed to the turtle-to-ravens style we saw in the Reality game.
It's a tough one to call. I like the MSC nerf and Roach buff though (even if it is yet another speed buff...)
It would make ghost switches easier and therefore give them a better utility in zvt with tanks vs vipers aswell as prepare against ht switches in tvp. Overall I think, we would see more ghosts earlygame - ghost rush to snipe marines and scvs in tvt, ghost timing pushes with emp against gasless mass queens to get rid of creep and 2 base ghost against fast hts. This thing would bring more TLO like WoL games. :D
On January 06 2014 23:12 Prugelhugel wrote: I love the energy upgrade idea:
It would make ghost switches easier and therefore give them a better utility in zvt with tanks vs vipers aswell as prepare against ht switches in tvp. Overall I think, we would see more ghosts earlygame - ghost rush to snipe marines and scvs in tvt, ghost timing pushes with emp against gasless mass queens to get rid of creep and 2 base ghost against fast hts. This thing would bring more TLO like WoL games. :D
I think you missed that patch where Snipe damage went from 45 to 25+25 vs Psionic, kiss your ghost rushes in TvT goodbye. You won't get ghosts vs mass queen either, its still a big early game investment off 200/100 and they need either protection to work, or cloak, another big investment. But apart from that you will maybe see them more often in the late game, which is a hell of a lot better then nearly not seeing them now a days.
Slightly influenced by this thread... give Tanks a little energy, like 25 maybe. Starting energy would be 0. In siegemode make them use all available energy in 1 shot as damage to shields (ignoring hardened shield?) to the main target only. So they would do upto 25 more damage in their first salvo to shielded targets (no influence to TvZ or TvT). During a battle, it may accumulate energy, but it would use it up again, when available, adding just 1 dmg as soon as 1 energy is gained. In rare occasions they could be feedbacked by HTs (e.g. from highground), so it has a little downside.
You could also make it have 50 energy and do 1 dmg per 2 energy or so. Or have it use just parts of the energy per shot, but then keep in mind that it mustn't be too vulnerable to feedbacks (like the Thor was in WoL).
On January 06 2014 23:48 BurningRanger wrote: Slightly influenced by this thread... give Tanks a little energy, like 25 maybe. Starting energy would be 0. In siegemode make them use all available energy in 1 shot as damage to shields (ignoring hardened shield?) to the main target only. So they would do upto 25 more damage in their first salvo to shielded targets (no influence to TvZ or TvT). During a battle, it may accumulate energy, but it would use it up again, when available, adding just 1 dmg as soon as 1 energy is gained. In rare occasions they could be feedbacked by HTs (e.g. from highground), so it has a little downside.
You could also make it have 50 energy and do 1 dmg per 2 energy or so. Or have it use just parts of the energy per shot, but then keep in mind that it mustn't be too vulnerable to feedbacks (like the Thor was in WoL).
This looks like really clunky design, adding an Energy bar for no real purpose...
On January 06 2014 23:50 SC2Toastie wrote: This looks like really clunky design, adding an Energy bar for no real purpose...
The purpose is to do more damage, but not constantly, including it with a little downside instead of just plain buffing it. Usually it shouldn't have a problem with feedback though, because the energy would be depleted by shooting before any HT can get in range (except in the scenario where the HT is on a highground and the tank doesn't have vision up there).
Cant wait do do stupid and ineffective roach burrow allins again :D On a more serious note, I'm not sure if this will change that much. The update is rarely researched in pro games because allins that rely on burrowmicro to work are easily countered by common builds.
God that reminds me of 350mm strike cannons. I was so sad when they took it out (even if it was basically useless).
On January 06 2014 06:00 Faust852 wrote: I don't think PO is fine, it allow the protoss to play way too safe and greedy so he ends up teching much faster. The protoss should have more than one gate before teching to HT imo.
You cant tech to ht with storm with one gate. Not possible. I have a hard time holding the 10 min push while getting hts and +2 armor with anything less than 7 gates ready for when the push comes. I still have a hard time hitting the macro benchmarks and chronos for a proper ht and observer build with armor ups vs a well timed medivac pressure. Let alone a 5 rax before 3rd OC version.
You probably don't do it well because you should be able to hold to 10 min 4 medivacs push with like 3/4 gates and some HTs. Man, 7 gates are close to be allin at this point.
7 gates into 10:30/11:00 third is pretty standard for HT builds if Terran doesn't 3CC, because zealots are cheap and high templar have a high warp-in cooldown so 7 gates allows sustained production while banking enough to take a third.
I think there are some builds which do tech to storm off of one gate (Dear's storm drop build iirc) but they delay robo and forge compared to standard HT builds and only really work against standard Terran builds (i.e. Reaper FE into more barracks or CC first).
All this talk about tanks and extra damage to shields looks incredibly like sloppy patchworking to me without addressing the real problem: the immortal. In my opinion, they should just give the immortal a cooldown on their hardened shields. This will make them worse against tanks in a fight, but still allow the protoss to retreat with them without suffering too much damage, should he be caught off guard.
I would suggest the same for raven abilities, that way it takes significantly more ravens to cloud the skies with pdd and seeker missiles. And a super deathball of raven + vikings won't be able to deplete all their energy into pure death at once.
What about halving the immortal's hardened shield to keep it as a passive, and adding on the other half as an ability?
This way there is choice involved in whether or not you use the ability depending on the type of fight etc, do I use it to attack into an army or do I use it to run away for an army is a much more interesting choice than a bland passive.
Just an idea, I'm sure the numbers can be tweaked and people better than me at game design can figure out a better solution.
On January 07 2014 02:03 JustPassingBy wrote: All this talk about tanks and extra damage to shields looks incredibly like sloppy patchworking to me without addressing the real problem: the immortal. In my opinion, they should just give the immortal a cooldown on their hardened shields. This will make them worse against tanks in a fight, but still allow the protoss to retreat with them without suffering too much damage, should he be caught off guard.
I would suggest the same for raven abilities, that way it takes significantly more ravens to cloud the skies with pdd and seeker missiles. And a super deathball of raven + vikings won't be able to deplete all their energy into pure death at once.
Adressing only the Immortal looks incredibly like sloppy patchworking to me, since it doesn't adress Mech being extremly weak vs most other Protoss midgame strategies ("hello Archons") as well and Mech having little timing capabilities to allow for anything but extreme turtlemech as a playstyle. Similarily for TvZ.
On January 06 2014 06:00 Faust852 wrote: I don't think PO is fine, it allow the protoss to play way too safe and greedy so he ends up teching much faster. The protoss should have more than one gate before teching to HT imo.
You cant tech to ht with storm with one gate. Not possible. I have a hard time holding the 10 min push while getting hts and +2 armor with anything less than 7 gates ready for when the push comes. I still have a hard time hitting the macro benchmarks and chronos for a proper ht and observer build with armor ups vs a well timed medivac pressure. Let alone a 5 rax before 3rd OC version.
You probably don't do it well because you should be able to hold to 10 min 4 medivacs push with like 3/4 gates and some HTs. Man, 7 gates are close to be allin at this point.
7 gates into 10:30/11:00 third is pretty standard for HT builds if Terran doesn't 3CC, because zealots are cheap and high templar have a high warp-in cooldown so 7 gates allows sustained production while banking enough to take a third.
I think there are some builds which do tech to storm off of one gate (Dear's storm drop build iirc) but they delay robo and forge compared to standard HT builds and only really work against standard Terran builds (i.e. Reaper FE into more barracks or CC first).
Basically what they are saying is, they want to be able to take CC first and roll over Protoss before they have any tech. Terran taking CC first and not being punished for it, how is that different then Protoss 1 gate FE and teching up? It's not and it's a standard response to a standard Terran build. If you don't want the Protoss to get away with 1 gate FE, then do a build that punishes that opener ???? It has nothing to do with PO, because PO alone can't hold off a terran bio ball with medivacs.
On January 06 2014 06:00 Faust852 wrote: I don't think PO is fine, it allow the protoss to play way too safe and greedy so he ends up teching much faster. The protoss should have more than one gate before teching to HT imo.
You cant tech to ht with storm with one gate. Not possible. I have a hard time holding the 10 min push while getting hts and +2 armor with anything less than 7 gates ready for when the push comes. I still have a hard time hitting the macro benchmarks and chronos for a proper ht and observer build with armor ups vs a well timed medivac pressure. Let alone a 5 rax before 3rd OC version.
You probably don't do it well because you should be able to hold to 10 min 4 medivacs push with like 3/4 gates and some HTs. Man, 7 gates are close to be allin at this point.
7 gates into 10:30/11:00 third is pretty standard for HT builds if Terran doesn't 3CC, because zealots are cheap and high templar have a high warp-in cooldown so 7 gates allows sustained production while banking enough to take a third.
I think there are some builds which do tech to storm off of one gate (Dear's storm drop build iirc) but they delay robo and forge compared to standard HT builds and only really work against standard Terran builds (i.e. Reaper FE into more barracks or CC first).
Basically what they are saying is, they want to be able to take CC first and roll over Protoss before they have any tech. Terran taking CC first and not being punished for it, how is that different then Protoss 1 gate FE and teching up? It's not and it's a standard response to a standard Terran build. If you don't want the Protoss to get away with 1 gate FE, then do a build that punishes that opener ???? It has nothing to do with PO, because PO alone can't hold off a terran bio ball with medivacs.
Do you play this game? 1 gate + PO can actually hold until 10:30. Cc first is highly abusable, it's just that protoss is greedy too in the opening.
I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
To be perfectly honest I don't want too much of a MSC core nerf because then terran will start winning and will get nerfed, I would rather have protoss be too strong than terran be too weak, if that makes sense.
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Because it makes it very unreliable and inconsistent to play mech, to depend on one spell to make the difference between good fight and total annihilation, irespective of prior positioning, unit spread, and all the other mech specific micro. With bio or even Protoss, if you fuck up or get FB or you are out of energy or miss or whatever, you can retreat, not with mech.
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
So what is that complaint about Terrans not having a gas intensive unit to dump gas into? Or is this statement completely wrong?
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
So what is that complaint about Terrans not having a gas intensive unit to dump gas into? Or is this statement completely wrong?
No i mean the oposite: when going mech you need a lot of gas compared to bio, going goths is then to expensive gas wise (also it fragile in PvT mech because of feedback but that is not the argument here). it was opposed to the muta bling comment where a zerg can mine enough gas to make it work. would mutas be 100/200 then it would also be impossible Also mech requires a turtle style where you cannot expand that agressively as zerg with ling bling muta so you mostly have 2 to 4 gasses less to mine from
p.s. if you dont get my comment i understand my english grammar + spelling is horrible :p
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same.
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Because it makes it very unreliable and inconsistent to play mech, to depend on one spell to make the difference between good fight and total annihilation, irespective of prior positioning, unit spread, and all the other mech specific micro. With bio or even Protoss, if you fuck up or get FB or you are out of energy or miss or whatever, you can retreat, not with mech.
that's not what he was saying. He said he does not want to build ghosts because it overlaps with building mech units. Not that ghosts may not be the right guys for the job. Your argument makes sort of sense, his doesn't.
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
Yeah I kind of agree with you on this Big J. This shouldn't be a problem if we're forced to build some ghosts to complete our army. What is trolling us more is Blizzard barging in proudly with a "GONNA BUFF MECH BY (ONLY) MAKING THE GHOST STRONGER, GUYS".
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
Yeah I kind of agree with you on this Big J. This shouldn't be a problem if we're forced to build some ghosts to complete our army. What is trolling us more is Blizzard barging in proudly with a "GONNA BUFF MECH BY (ONLY) MAKING THE GHOST STRONGER, GUYS".
no they didn't, they said allows mech easier access to emp is one possible solution (one that i don't think will happen though)
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same.
Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.).
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
Yeah I kind of agree with you on this Big J. This shouldn't be a problem if we're forced to build some ghosts to complete our army. What is trolling us more is Blizzard barging in proudly with a "GONNA BUFF MECH BY (ONLY) MAKING THE GHOST STRONGER, GUYS".
no they didn't, they said allows mech easier access to emp is one possible solution (one that i don't think will happen though)
I know, I know. But still, it's understandable that it wasn't what people wanted to hear. I mean, you could make mech stronger by buffing the reaper and allowing Terran to do threatening reaper openings into mech, that would sound silly as well. I guess that if a potential buff also buffs strongly bio, it shouldn't be called a mech buff, but plainly a general Terran buff (and I'll be sure to continue spamming marine and marauders anyway :D)
I think the point is that blizzard is trying to get to a point where Ghosts are accessible enough that every Terran says "if course you build ghosts, they are so good." Personally, I would like to see that, because they are fun units to watch.
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
On January 07 2014 20:29 matthy wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:
On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same.
Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.).
Those are two seperate issues. The one is that some energy units tend to overperform in the late-/endgame. For the other one, we do see pushes with ghosts, Storm timings, Viper timings, Sentry timings, etc... where you utilize few of those units. Thus I don't see why the reliance on energy units in certain scenarios would always lead to people massing them and playing passively. That's the other issue and much more tied to the specifc design/role of those units. In particular with the ghost I can't really see how you would really have to mass them so much with Mech. Once the Immortal/Archon shields are down, you are pretty happy and you don't really want more ghosts than the count to ensure that.
On January 08 2014 00:15 ZenithM wrote: I really don't like massing spell casters :'( But at least a massive ghost squad looks better than 30 infestors.
If Terrans get to a place where they were using as many ghosts and Protoss use HTs, it would be pretty cool. Plus ghosts do really good damage to zealots.
Personally, they are so under used, I think they could use a cost reduction.
Blizzard has always been very vague when talking about mech and this next step is no exception. Will it be the Tank? The Ghost? Air? LAN? We don't know.
It's difficult to give suggestions when you can't really tell the direction the devs. want to take. Different people give different suggestions because they see different problems.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
Best suggestion I've heard for mech is bonus damages to shields on siege tanks so they can better deal with archons and zealots! would leave tvt and tvz untouched as well.
Archons have 350 shields and do not take bonus damage from Tanks, meaning it takes around 10 shots to deplete the shields. Immortals will have their shields depleted by one EMP, but you still need that EMP and Immortals don't cluster up all that much.
The energy change doesn't help much in this, I'd rather see Archons take full damage from Tanks and Immortals taking more than 10 damage from Thors and Tanks.
Yea thats the HUGE problem with them their cost efficiency is in the gutter because they first saw how good they were Nerfed the cost then they said oh well lets nerf them in Radius of EMP then they Nerfed the Snipe damage and now they cost way to much for what they are.... Its a Slow building unit that doesn't give you the efficiency to cost ratio that you need to even justify making them.... I tried that build a couple times and it really came down to the fact that you effectively can only use 5 max anything past that is gimmicky and you have to snipe obs which is a crap shoot by everyone except taeja which i'm sure he doesn't really like hahahaha They just take forever to build and cost 200-100 you just give toss to much time to remass if you wind up in a situation where you have 5-6 ghosts left over from a major battle lol
This is why Polt's style was so freaking crazy good when it first came out and he has honed it even more I would love to see him start playing PL again under a US team if PL would ever allow it ahahaha
On January 08 2014 00:24 manniefresh wrote: Best suggestion I've heard for mech is bonus damages to shields on siege tanks so they can better deal with archons and zealots! would leave tvt and tvz untouched as well.
It also means they would do bonus damage to stalker, sentries, probes and every other Protoss unit. You are basically saying they should kill Protoss better.
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
On January 07 2014 20:29 matthy wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:
On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same.
Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.).
Those are two seperate issues. The one is that some energy units tend to overperform in the late-/endgame. For the other one, we do see pushes with ghosts, Storm timings, Viper timings, Sentry timings, etc... where you utilize few of those units. Thus I don't see why the reliance on energy units in certain scenarios would always lead to people massing them and playing passively. That's the other issue and much more tied to the specifc design/role of those units. In particular with the ghost I can't really see how you would really have to mass them so much with Mech. Once the Immortal/Archon shields are down, you are pretty happy and you don't really want more ghosts than the count to ensure that.
What count would that be tho? I suppose you need about slightly over ten (taking into account Feedback and the fact radius is tiny vs Archon/Immortal and archons take 3/4 EMPS (preferance)? Thats 1K+gas gone right there. You need vikings/Ravens vs Aerial threats, and somehow, you end up with having about 50-75% of your 'mech army' in being support units for the siege tanks, which feel more like dead weight than anything if you acchieve this.
THe problem with 'mech': - It cannot hold position, it is currently just a mass spellcaster deathball (akin to Broodlord/Infestor). - It doesn't pose an offensive threat (A) making harassment impossible, B) making games really boring and stretched out, C) forces a gas heavy transition into said spellcaster deathball, which is what we shouldn't aim for!) So what mech actually is: a fragile stepping stone to a really powerful endgame army, but with loads of weaknesses it doesn't make up for except for allowing said transition. And if you reach the lategame army of choice -> grats, you can now fight on relatively even footing with Protoss, maybe you are slightly stronger, but good luck with the remax when you don't have all your energy back yet.
which is showcased perfectly at KT Ty v GalaxyKHAN Reality (which is really exciting and a great game, so I decided to spoiler the summary) + Show Spoiler [Summary] +
Ty goes mech, Reality goes biomech. The game ends in 20 minutes of small skirmishes of low tank counts + hellbat counts vs biomech. Ty attacks Reality on multiple fronts and closes him in, once the game devolves into madness, you see what the Tanks can do and cannot do, a great display of how to abuse mech and how to defend with mech, all the while there is action all over the map on at least two fronts, most of the time. THIS is what we mean with positional strenght - being capable of holding a front without dedicating at least 80% of the supply your opponent dedicates.
) is non-existant verse both Protoss and Zerg. vs Protoss because pretty much everything Protoss handles siege tanks well in some way, Protoss is actually superbly mobile and Warp in punishes any moveout HARD. vs Zerg because the deathball either hits a pre-hive timing if Hellion Banshee did enough damage OR is forced to turtle on 4 bases for a RavenVikingSiegeTank composition, which takes forever.
TLDR: Mech has no aggressive capabilities outside of TvT, harassment is easily nullified because there is no threat of a large move-out, People want positional mech with the strenght to attack at any timing, without the need for the skyterran transition which takes 10 minutes -> all contributes to less stale MechvX games.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
For the love of god no more tank buffs LOL I like the idea of Mech being viable but not at the cost of erasing Bio then we will be in the same venue we were before having a pidgeonholed match up on top of Destroying our now TvT instead of giving more options.......
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
On January 07 2014 20:29 matthy wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:
On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same.
Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.).
Those are two seperate issues. The one is that some energy units tend to overperform in the late-/endgame. For the other one, we do see pushes with ghosts, Storm timings, Viper timings, Sentry timings, etc... where you utilize few of those units. Thus I don't see why the reliance on energy units in certain scenarios would always lead to people massing them and playing passively. That's the other issue and much more tied to the specifc design/role of those units. In particular with the ghost I can't really see how you would really have to mass them so much with Mech. Once the Immortal/Archon shields are down, you are pretty happy and you don't really want more ghosts than the count to ensure that.
I didn't say the spellcasters would systematically be massed. You go only for a few Ghosts along mech, yet those 6-8 ones are still critical because without the EMPs, your army gets slaughtered. But building that Ghost/mech army takes a long time, you cannot have much midgame activity, so Protoss can transition to air, and then you have to add Vikings/Ravens, and finally we have this weird mix of an army in which the Tank has so little role left it cannot seriously be called "mech".
The best thing is simply to make it so mech in TvP can operate without the Ghost until some point, just like mech in TvZ can work without Ravens until some point, instead of forcing the Ghost into mech and promote turtly play. I would test this:
- Rework Hardened Shields so attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10; - Tanks in Siege Mode have a +15 bonus damage against Massive units; - Blinding Cloud reduces the range of units under its effect by 6.
I would like a buff to the tank that is actually hard to use to its fullest potential. Like, not something which buffs turboturtlenoobs. QUICKLY, INCREASE ITS MOVEMENT SPEED!
On January 08 2014 00:37 ZenithM wrote: I would like a buff to the tank that is actually hard to use to its fullest potential. Like, not something which buffs turboturtlenoobs. QUICKLY, INCREASE ITS MOVEMENT SPEED!
Incoming slide stutter step with auto-shot, Phoenix style.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
For the love of god no more tank buffs LOL I like the idea of Mech being viable but not at the cost of erasing Bio then we will be in the same venue we were before having a pidgeonholed match up on top of Destroying our now TvT instead of giving more options.......
A Tank buff will not kill bio don't worry. Best Terran in the World, Taeja is a bio player. There is plenty of room to buff tanks without completely turning TvT in to a mech only MU (though as far as i'm concern if you loose diversity in one MU but gain diversity in two, then it's a step forward).
On January 08 2014 00:40 Plansix wrote: Medivacs can pick up tanks while seiged, but only one at a time, Thor style. There is a tank buff we can all get behind because it's dope.
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
On January 07 2014 20:29 matthy wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:
On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same.
Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.).
Those are two seperate issues. The one is that some energy units tend to overperform in the late-/endgame. For the other one, we do see pushes with ghosts, Storm timings, Viper timings, Sentry timings, etc... where you utilize few of those units. Thus I don't see why the reliance on energy units in certain scenarios would always lead to people massing them and playing passively. That's the other issue and much more tied to the specifc design/role of those units. In particular with the ghost I can't really see how you would really have to mass them so much with Mech. Once the Immortal/Archon shields are down, you are pretty happy and you don't really want more ghosts than the count to ensure that.
I didn't say the spellcasters would systematically be massed. You go only for a few Ghosts along mech, yet those 6-8 ones are still critical because without the EMPs, your army gets slaughtered. But building that Ghost/mech army takes a long time, you cannot have much midgame activity, so Protoss can transition to air, and then you have to add Vikings/Ravens, and finally we have this weird mix of an army in which the Tank has so little role left it cannot seriously be called "mech".
The best thing is simply to make it so mech in TvP can operate without the Ghost until some point, just like mech in TvZ can work without Ravens until some point, instead of forcing the Ghost into mech and promote turtly play. I would test this:
- Rework Hardened Shields so attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10; - Tanks in Siege Mode have a +15 bonus damage against Massive units; - Blinding Cloud reduces the range of units under its effect by 6.
And you know, all these idea's have been spoken out so often, but aren't heared.
What rework Hardened Shields does: Archons, Immortals deal slightly more damage, Ultralisk, Broodlords deal slightly more damage, Siege tanks, Thors deal considerably more damage, Marauders deal slightly more damage (talking 1 damage/upgrade, so 13 instead of 10 at 3/3) Agains all of these units, if the Immortal is taking damage, often you have already lost the fight (PvP, Immortals are the last units in Archon vs Immortal) or it works for both sides; Immortals can face Ultralisk face to face, but now lose their shields about 66% faster. Immortals aren't supposed to engage broodlords, so no biggy. Thors/Tanks however, deal massively more damage after this patch. Siege tanks deal 25+2.5/upgrade to Immortals, cutting their shields in ~4 hits instead of 10. Thors deal about 40 damage instead of 20, also increasing the shield kill speed. Marauder effect is negligable. This change almost exclusively affects Mech vs Protoss, in a good way. Immortals still counter Thor/Tank, but less extremely so.
I'm assuming it stacks, if it doesn't, problems for collosi/thor/ultralisk don't occur
. Ultralisk die slightly faster, taking 65(+5) damage instead of 50(+5). Same goes for collosi both probably die in 2/1 hit faster respectively). This might pose a problem verse the Ultralisk, but MechvZ is underdeveloped and might require patching for the Zerg to deal with Skyterran transitions better on certain maps. The only other candidates are Thor and Archon. Thors shouldn't engage Tank lines, just sole tanks, but Archons. Archons suddenly take almost 50% more damage! Going from 35 to 50 damage.
Blinding Cloud reduces range of units by 6 istead of by infinite: Unith with over 6 range: Collosi (go from 9 > 3) Thor v ground (from 7 to 1, slightly longer than melee, negligable) Thor v air (from 9 to 3/10 to 4) Siege Tank (from 13 to 7). Another change which affects probably only the Siege Tank.
These are clear changes with very few disadvantages, which all of a sudden make the siege tank a force to be reckoned with!
I am of the opinion TvZ might become problematic as Mech get's more well-developped, but it is too early to tell.
On January 08 2014 00:40 Plansix wrote: Medivacs can pick up tanks while seiged, but only one at a time, Thor style. There is a tank buff we can all get behind because it's dope.
That shit would be ridiculously game changing :D
For the better. You know we all want to see it. Think of the micro and the amazing doom drops. Think of the laughs then someone loses like 5 medivacs and tanks to stalkers.
On January 08 2014 00:40 Plansix wrote: Medivacs can pick up tanks while seiged, but only one at a time, Thor style. There is a tank buff we can all get behind because it's dope.
That shit would be ridiculously game changing :D
Are there any more basic RTS rules we could throw out the window? Blizzard already does a good job at it, but this would be a whole new level.
On January 08 2014 00:40 Plansix wrote: Medivacs can pick up tanks while seiged, but only one at a time, Thor style. There is a tank buff we can all get behind because it's dope.
That shit would be ridiculously game changing :D
For the better. You know we all want to see it. Think of the micro and the amazing doom drops. Think of the laughs then someone loses like 5 medivacs and tanks to stalkers.
That's almost even better than Tanks with blink. Even the WoL campaign didn't have that. I'm all for it.
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
On January 07 2014 20:29 matthy wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:
On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same.
Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.).
Those are two seperate issues. The one is that some energy units tend to overperform in the late-/endgame. For the other one, we do see pushes with ghosts, Storm timings, Viper timings, Sentry timings, etc... where you utilize few of those units. Thus I don't see why the reliance on energy units in certain scenarios would always lead to people massing them and playing passively. That's the other issue and much more tied to the specifc design/role of those units. In particular with the ghost I can't really see how you would really have to mass them so much with Mech. Once the Immortal/Archon shields are down, you are pretty happy and you don't really want more ghosts than the count to ensure that.
I didn't say the spellcasters would systematically be massed. You go only for a few Ghosts along mech, yet those 6-8 ones are still critical because without the EMPs, your army gets slaughtered. But building that Ghost/mech army takes a long time, you cannot have much midgame activity, so Protoss can transition to air, and then you have to add Vikings/Ravens, and finally we have this weird mix of an army in which the Tank has so little role left it cannot seriously be called "mech".
The best thing is simply to make it so mech in TvP can operate without the Ghost until some point, just like mech in TvZ can work without Ravens until some point, instead of forcing the Ghost into mech and promote turtly play. I would test this:
- Rework Hardened Shields so attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10; - Tanks in Siege Mode have a +15 bonus damage against Massive units; - Blinding Cloud reduces the range of units under its effect by 6.
Of course other stuff (like your suggestions) may make more sense. But I strongly disagree with the sentiment that there is only one way to balance Mech. Like, how you describe TvP Mech if you need ghosts, vikings, ravens is bound to a metagame in which Protoss is still overpowered against Mech. If Protoss vs Mech is balanced, Protoss has to go much further to the edges of greed than they do now, opening room for midgame Mech timings.
On January 08 2014 00:40 Plansix wrote: Medivacs can pick up tanks while seiged, but only one at a time, Thor style. There is a tank buff we can all get behind because it's dope.
That shit would be ridiculously game changing :D
For the better. You know we all want to see it. Think of the micro and the amazing doom drops. Think of the laughs then someone loses like 5 medivacs and tanks to stalkers.
That's almost even better than Tanks with blink. Even the WoL campaign didn't have that. I'm all for it.
Hey, if you are willing to make a medivac per tank, go for it. You are going to be bummed out when the Protoss builds units from the stargate and reminds you tanks can't shoot planes.
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
On January 07 2014 20:29 matthy wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:
On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:
On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote: I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen.
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same.
Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.).
Those are two seperate issues. The one is that some energy units tend to overperform in the late-/endgame. For the other one, we do see pushes with ghosts, Storm timings, Viper timings, Sentry timings, etc... where you utilize few of those units. Thus I don't see why the reliance on energy units in certain scenarios would always lead to people massing them and playing passively. That's the other issue and much more tied to the specifc design/role of those units. In particular with the ghost I can't really see how you would really have to mass them so much with Mech. Once the Immortal/Archon shields are down, you are pretty happy and you don't really want more ghosts than the count to ensure that.
I didn't say the spellcasters would systematically be massed. You go only for a few Ghosts along mech, yet those 6-8 ones are still critical because without the EMPs, your army gets slaughtered. But building that Ghost/mech army takes a long time, you cannot have much midgame activity, so Protoss can transition to air, and then you have to add Vikings/Ravens, and finally we have this weird mix of an army in which the Tank has so little role left it cannot seriously be called "mech".
The best thing is simply to make it so mech in TvP can operate without the Ghost until some point, just like mech in TvZ can work without Ravens until some point, instead of forcing the Ghost into mech and promote turtly play. I would test this:
- Rework Hardened Shields so attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10; - Tanks in Siege Mode have a +15 bonus damage against Massive units; - Blinding Cloud reduces the range of units under its effect by 6.
Of course other stuff (like your suggestions) may make more sense. But I strongly disagree with the sentiment that there is only one way to balance Mech. Like, how you describe TvP Mech if you need ghosts, vikings, ravens is bound to a metagame in which Protoss is still overpowered against Mech. If Protoss vs Mech is balanced, Protoss has to go much further to the edges of greed than they do now, opening room for midgame Mech timings.
Sure, but isn't it what those changes would do? How else would you give more strength to mech vs Protoss? Even if you want to go the "mech + spellcasters" road, Ghosts are used along with bio, Ravens are used against Zerg; Tanks themselves could quickly become too dominant if overbuffed; so basically changes need to be made carefully so there isn't an overwhelming collateral impact. Did you think about anything in particular?
I think the easiest way to buff tanks atm would not be to increase his damage or splash or anything like that.
The better way would be to change the cost like 150/100 or 125/100, supply to 2 and construction time to 40s.
With a change like that, it won't kill TvT into Mech VS Mech, not at the first stage of the game at least. Furthermore biomech/mech compositions would be more affordable in TvZ, while maintaining mines and/or marines support for Air purpose.
In TvP it would not promote biomech but allow for a faster tank defense into pure mech. Or maybe marine/mine/tank
Maybe this change won't be enough, but at least it'll allow for MORE tank play, whether it becomes too strong or if it is still too weak other patchs will allow people to show it. But since people will just bitch around for the name of 'tank is still overpowered, look at xel naga tower era'. You cant increase tanks damage because of that.
I want marinetank back in TvZ as well as marinetank in TvT. It always have been the best match to watch and play since SC2 came out.
On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote: [quote]
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
On January 07 2014 20:29 matthy wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:
On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote: [quote]
why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition?
Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same.
Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.).
Those are two seperate issues. The one is that some energy units tend to overperform in the late-/endgame. For the other one, we do see pushes with ghosts, Storm timings, Viper timings, Sentry timings, etc... where you utilize few of those units. Thus I don't see why the reliance on energy units in certain scenarios would always lead to people massing them and playing passively. That's the other issue and much more tied to the specifc design/role of those units. In particular with the ghost I can't really see how you would really have to mass them so much with Mech. Once the Immortal/Archon shields are down, you are pretty happy and you don't really want more ghosts than the count to ensure that.
I didn't say the spellcasters would systematically be massed. You go only for a few Ghosts along mech, yet those 6-8 ones are still critical because without the EMPs, your army gets slaughtered. But building that Ghost/mech army takes a long time, you cannot have much midgame activity, so Protoss can transition to air, and then you have to add Vikings/Ravens, and finally we have this weird mix of an army in which the Tank has so little role left it cannot seriously be called "mech".
The best thing is simply to make it so mech in TvP can operate without the Ghost until some point, just like mech in TvZ can work without Ravens until some point, instead of forcing the Ghost into mech and promote turtly play. I would test this:
- Rework Hardened Shields so attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10; - Tanks in Siege Mode have a +15 bonus damage against Massive units; - Blinding Cloud reduces the range of units under its effect by 6.
Of course other stuff (like your suggestions) may make more sense. But I strongly disagree with the sentiment that there is only one way to balance Mech. Like, how you describe TvP Mech if you need ghosts, vikings, ravens is bound to a metagame in which Protoss is still overpowered against Mech. If Protoss vs Mech is balanced, Protoss has to go much further to the edges of greed than they do now, opening room for midgame Mech timings.
Sure, but isn't it what those changes would do? How else would you give more strength to mech vs Protoss? Even if you want to go the "mech + spellcasters" road, Ghosts are used along with bio, Ravens are used against Zerg; Tanks themselves could quickly become too dominant if overbuffed; so basically changes need to be made carefully so there isn't an overwhelming collateral impact. Did you think about anything in particular?
Well, I think what you suggest makes sense. I think some further direct buffs to tanks would also make sense, though they would have to be done in a way that tanks become better at least against some Protoss ground units that they aren't as good against currently (zealots, archons, immortals). E.g. extra dmg vs shields, the "main target buff" I have been talking about for a long time, maybe another attack periode buff For ghosts, I think it's hard to find a simple solution to make them more accesible in particular for Mech. Armory as alternative requirement to the academy would be cool imo, but then you may get balance problems with reactored ghosts. Would be cool if ghosts could drive in Tanks and EMP from inside of them, but now I'm getting really unrealistic.
On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote: [quote] Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work.
Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts?
On January 07 2014 20:29 matthy wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:
On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote: [quote] Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess..
yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings...
Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas...
That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same.
Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.).
Those are two seperate issues. The one is that some energy units tend to overperform in the late-/endgame. For the other one, we do see pushes with ghosts, Storm timings, Viper timings, Sentry timings, etc... where you utilize few of those units. Thus I don't see why the reliance on energy units in certain scenarios would always lead to people massing them and playing passively. That's the other issue and much more tied to the specifc design/role of those units. In particular with the ghost I can't really see how you would really have to mass them so much with Mech. Once the Immortal/Archon shields are down, you are pretty happy and you don't really want more ghosts than the count to ensure that.
I didn't say the spellcasters would systematically be massed. You go only for a few Ghosts along mech, yet those 6-8 ones are still critical because without the EMPs, your army gets slaughtered. But building that Ghost/mech army takes a long time, you cannot have much midgame activity, so Protoss can transition to air, and then you have to add Vikings/Ravens, and finally we have this weird mix of an army in which the Tank has so little role left it cannot seriously be called "mech".
The best thing is simply to make it so mech in TvP can operate without the Ghost until some point, just like mech in TvZ can work without Ravens until some point, instead of forcing the Ghost into mech and promote turtly play. I would test this:
- Rework Hardened Shields so attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10; - Tanks in Siege Mode have a +15 bonus damage against Massive units; - Blinding Cloud reduces the range of units under its effect by 6.
Of course other stuff (like your suggestions) may make more sense. But I strongly disagree with the sentiment that there is only one way to balance Mech. Like, how you describe TvP Mech if you need ghosts, vikings, ravens is bound to a metagame in which Protoss is still overpowered against Mech. If Protoss vs Mech is balanced, Protoss has to go much further to the edges of greed than they do now, opening room for midgame Mech timings.
Sure, but isn't it what those changes would do? How else would you give more strength to mech vs Protoss? Even if you want to go the "mech + spellcasters" road, Ghosts are used along with bio, Ravens are used against Zerg; Tanks themselves could quickly become too dominant if overbuffed; so basically changes need to be made carefully so there isn't an overwhelming collateral impact. Did you think about anything in particular?
Well, I think what you suggest makes sense. I think some further direct buffs to tanks would also make sense, though they would have to be done in a way that tanks become better at least against some Protoss ground units that they aren't as good against currently (zealots, archons, immortals). E.g. extra dmg vs shields, the "main target buff" I have been talking about for a long time, maybe another attack periode buff For ghosts, I think it's hard to find a simple solution to make them more accesible in particular for Mech. Armory as alternative requirement to the academy would be cool imo, but then you may get balance problems with reactored ghosts. Would be cool if ghosts could drive in Tanks and EMP from inside of them, but now I'm getting really unrealistic.
That's not a mech-specific buff, usually Armory is dropped before Ghost Academy :-)
On January 08 2014 00:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: Blizzard has always been very vague when talking about mech and this next step is no exception. Will it be the Tank? The Ghost? Air? LAN? We don't know.
It's difficult to give suggestions when you can't really tell the direction the devs. want to take. Different people give different suggestions because they see different problems.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
Quite possibly because they don't want to do it, but feel they have to respond to "community desire" for Mech. I think they are well aware of the large stone thrown into the pond that will be. I'm hoping they stay well away from buffing Mech until LoTV.
But, then, I'd prefer no further changes to the game, period. (Unless, if pressed, a time warp nerf and reversion of Oracle speed.)
On January 08 2014 00:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: Blizzard has always been very vague when talking about mech and this next step is no exception. Will it be the Tank? The Ghost? Air? LAN? We don't know.
It's difficult to give suggestions when you can't really tell the direction the devs. want to take. Different people give different suggestions because they see different problems.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
Quite possibly because they don't want to do it, but feel they have to respond to "community desire" for Mech. I think they are well aware of the large stone thrown into the pond that will be. I'm hoping they stay well away from buffing Mech until LoTV.
But, then, I'd prefer no further changes to the game, period. (Unless, if pressed, a time warp nerf and reversion of Oracle speed.)
So you are saying they are lying the community in an effort to keep potential new customers for a new expan$ion. My opinion on the current Dev team and Blizz in general has been very low in the last few years, but what you describe is just Kotick level Evil.
On January 08 2014 00:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: Blizzard has always been very vague when talking about mech and this next step is no exception. Will it be the Tank? The Ghost? Air? LAN? We don't know.
It's difficult to give suggestions when you can't really tell the direction the devs. want to take. Different people give different suggestions because they see different problems.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
Quite possibly because they don't want to do it, but feel they have to respond to "community desire" for Mech. I think they are well aware of the large stone thrown into the pond that will be. I'm hoping they stay well away from buffing Mech until LoTV.
But, then, I'd prefer no further changes to the game, period. (Unless, if pressed, a time warp nerf and reversion of Oracle speed.)
Given that they did everything in their power to make bio better than mech from bw to star 2 due to them feeling that bio produces more exciting games it is pretty obvious that they'd rather not buff mech. I mean when mech was finally getting powered up in star 2 for the first time they insta nerfed blueflame. Though luckily they seemed to have realized that every terran matchup is boring to watch if all you see is constant bio, either that or they realized that a lot of people in korea (especially former bw pros) miss mech very badly. Or they are actually smart enough to realize that Terran will end up being the worst race if they only have one style to go for in tvz and tvp, though I highly doubt that.
Besides that I don't get all the bitching about blizzard. Yeah they are far from doing what they should do in a perfect world, but almost all developers are. Personally I'm fine given that they actually acknowledge esports and try to do their best to support it, on top of that they even care about the highest level of play and try to base their balance choices around it. That is more than any developer from any game I have played previously ever did (keep in mind that despite valve doing a good job with dota 2 they have been doing a horrible job with cs 1.6/source for years now).
On January 08 2014 00:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: Blizzard has always been very vague when talking about mech and this next step is no exception. Will it be the Tank? The Ghost? Air? LAN? We don't know.
It's difficult to give suggestions when you can't really tell the direction the devs. want to take. Different people give different suggestions because they see different problems.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
Quite possibly because they don't want to do it, but feel they have to respond to "community desire" for Mech. I think they are well aware of the large stone thrown into the pond that will be. I'm hoping they stay well away from buffing Mech until LoTV.
But, then, I'd prefer no further changes to the game, period. (Unless, if pressed, a time warp nerf and reversion of Oracle speed.)
So you are saying they are lying the community in an effort to keep potential new customers for a new expan$ion. My opinion on the current Dev team and Blizz in general has been very low in the last few years, but what you describe is just Kotick level Evil.
So you expect them to carelessly put full-time people on the job to 'fix' the game that doesn't really need much fixing? You expect them to put money into the game without looking forward to try and secure future streams of revenue? You expect them to throw money away just because you want them to?
Here's the thing: businesses are there to make money. You can't expect them to do anything that doesn't make them money in some way. Blizzard isn't EA, SC2 is finished, feature complete, works on any machine you expect it to work and it's balanced within reason. The only thing they are 'obliged' to do is keep the battle.net servers up. Anything else is just service for a better image, and to keep you here for LoTV. You can't expect them to just throw away money because you're not content with the way they're treating you.
On January 08 2014 00:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: Blizzard has always been very vague when talking about mech and this next step is no exception. Will it be the Tank? The Ghost? Air? LAN? We don't know.
It's difficult to give suggestions when you can't really tell the direction the devs. want to take. Different people give different suggestions because they see different problems.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
Quite possibly because they don't want to do it, but feel they have to respond to "community desire" for Mech. I think they are well aware of the large stone thrown into the pond that will be. I'm hoping they stay well away from buffing Mech until LoTV.
But, then, I'd prefer no further changes to the game, period. (Unless, if pressed, a time warp nerf and reversion of Oracle speed.)
I would say go back to before the oracle buff, and then don't change the game. It was in a good place at that point. As I've said a million times, that oracle buff was completely ill-conceived, done for the wrong reasons, and did not have the desired effect it was supposed to. In fact it had the opposite. The people who were already good with oracles were unchanged because they could keep their oracles alive anyway, but the people who were bad with oracles could now play sloppier and still keep them alive. It was completely stupid, and a ton of people had been pointing that out from the first time it was proposed.
It is a lot like the queen patch in WoL. The pro level zergs like Losira who already used queen-based openings continued to, but because of the extra range, much worse players could pull off the same thing now with similar results because of how far the queen could attack.
On January 08 2014 00:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: Blizzard has always been very vague when talking about mech and this next step is no exception. Will it be the Tank? The Ghost? Air? LAN? We don't know.
It's difficult to give suggestions when you can't really tell the direction the devs. want to take. Different people give different suggestions because they see different problems.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
Quite possibly because they don't want to do it, but feel they have to respond to "community desire" for Mech. I think they are well aware of the large stone thrown into the pond that will be. I'm hoping they stay well away from buffing Mech until LoTV.
But, then, I'd prefer no further changes to the game, period. (Unless, if pressed, a time warp nerf and reversion of Oracle speed.)
Given that they did everything in their power to make bio better than mech from bw to star 2 due to them feeling that bio produces more exciting games it is pretty obvious that they'd rather not buff mech. I mean when mech was finally getting powered up in star 2 for the first time they insta nerfed blueflame. Though luckily they seemed to have realized that every terran matchup is boring to watch if all you see is constant bio, either that or they realized that a lot of people in korea (especially former bw pros) miss mech very badly. Or they are actually smart enough to realize that Terran will end up being the worst race if they only have one style to go for in tvz and tvp, though I highly doubt that.
Besides that I don't get all the bitching about blizzard. Yeah they are far from doing what they should do in a perfect world, but almost all developers are. Personally I'm fine given that they actually acknowledge esports and try to do their best to support it, on top of that they even care about the highest level of play and try to base their balance choices around it. That is more than any developer from any game I have played previously ever did (keep in mind that despite valve doing a good job with dota 2 they have been doing a horrible job with cs 1.6/source for years now).
Well, yes. Don't forget the additions to HOTS made the issue also more difficult. That said, Mech may just not be possible in TvP (for HOTS) but it remains to be seen for TvZ. (Speaking of which, I'd like the WM nerf reverted too, or better tweaked. That was unwarranted and adversely affected TvP too.) Of course, as you say, they have previously publicly stated their preference for more exciting games (Esports! Yay!) and therefore for a Bio flavoured game. The effort to buff Mech appears to me to be half-hearted probably because of this reason, and also an awareness of the further complications that will result in HOTS if Mech were to become truly viable in all match-ups (especially through Blizzard intervention).
Like I said, I think they are better off waiting for LoTV if they want to take a fresh look.
And, yeah, I agree with you that I don't get the bitching, either. SC2 is a damn balanced game (which is one reason why it is also fun) and, yes, also reasonably well-designed. I only have to look at the BW win rates from 2007 - 2011: http://i.imgur.com/gmXwO.png to remind myself of the overall good job the developers have done in SC2. The community, at least that part of it which posts incessantly on the forums (basically, most of us), tend to only look at the next step or what we would like to see, generally without a thought to the possible consequences. The Blizzard developers, I should hope, tend to look beyond that to the overall good of the whole system (even if they may get it wrong sometimes).
It might help, though, if the balance team were a little deaf.
On January 08 2014 00:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: Blizzard has always been very vague when talking about mech and this next step is no exception. Will it be the Tank? The Ghost? Air? LAN? We don't know.
It's difficult to give suggestions when you can't really tell the direction the devs. want to take. Different people give different suggestions because they see different problems.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
Quite possibly because they don't want to do it, but feel they have to respond to "community desire" for Mech. I think they are well aware of the large stone thrown into the pond that will be. I'm hoping they stay well away from buffing Mech until LoTV.
But, then, I'd prefer no further changes to the game, period. (Unless, if pressed, a time warp nerf and reversion of Oracle speed.)
So you are saying they are lying the community in an effort to keep potential new customers for a new expan$ion. My opinion on the current Dev team and Blizz in general has been very low in the last few years, but what you describe is just Kotick level Evil.
So you expect them to carelessly put full-time people on the job to 'fix' the game that doesn't really need much fixing? You expect them to put money into the game without looking forward to try and secure future streams of revenue? You expect them to throw money away just because you want them to?
Here's the thing: businesses are there to make money. You can't expect them to do anything that doesn't make them money in some way. Blizzard isn't EA, SC2 is finished, feature complete, works on any machine you expect it to work and it's balanced within reason. The only thing they are 'obliged' to do is keep the battle.net servers up. Anything else is just service for a better image, and to keep you here for LoTV. You can't expect them to just throw away money because you're not content with the way they're treating you.
So you think they are lying and even more, that that is ok. Nice set of morals you have <3
During WOL they were 100% focused on achieving some sort of balance to live up to the BW brand and to create a good esport game. Big changes were to big of a risk at that point.
They heared and agreed with the community that mech needs to be a thing so that was the goal of the expansion. They worked on it, they marketed it, etc.
BETA comes out and we find out that Blizz completely miss understood what "mech" is or what SC fans mean by mech, so they had to scrap the bad ideas like the Warhound. Unfortunately it was to late to test more changes, the game had to come out and had to have decent enough balance, mech or not.
They made a PR 180, saying how bio is cool and fun and everything. It was a contradiction to what the original stated goal was and what every trailer and blue post and battle report etc was saying, but it was better to play stupid then admit failure.
A few months later, with the past behind us, Dustin Browder moved to a new project and some level of decent balance achieved, it is time to make up on some promises and game faults. So it is now, in the last few weeks that i think the only real work on mech (positional tank play) has started. Due to how neglected it has been it's expected that they don't really know where to start. The Tank is not good enough as a unit so it needs to be better but the Immortal has uber special Browder Shields so Ghosts might need to be buffed. A slow process, but AT LAST it started.
So i don't think Blizz is the Devil, they just fucked up with HOTS mech and now are playing catch up.
It really irks me the way all the randoms in here are coming up with unnecessarily complicated band-aid applications in order to "fix" mech. Mech cannot be fixed in its current state, because it was BROKEN from the start.
There are 3 things which break Mech:
1. Protoss units in general. The Immortal, Zealot, Stalker, Archon, Tempest, Voidray etc etc all hard/soft counter Mech in some way shape or form. This is undisputed knowledge and anyone arguing against this needs to go back and review the match up. Terran units do not have much in response and are either at a mobility disadvantage or cannot match the quantity of counters that Protoss has against it. You can say "Ghosts", but by that time the Terran is already trying to build Tanks, Thors, Ravens and Vikings.. Lets not talk about a heavy air transition here.
2. Maps. I've said this several times but I always get lambasted for it. The maps are utterly trash. I remember the early days of WoL where Terran fully abused the varied maps (of which they had much better thought and imagination poured into them) whilst the other 2 races were utterly clueless and cried imba. I saw Thor drops, Tank suppression from ledges overlooking greedy expands, height differences and blind spots which encouraged positional play and positions of power. I have not seen that since Antigua Shipyard. Mech can't function properly on these ridiculously huge maps with wide open planes, lots of dead air spaces and pretty much no chokes or positions of defence or slow pushing.
3. This is the most important point. What safeguards alot of the common strats of Zerg and Protoss? A unit with good utility and supply efficiency. For Zergs, this is the Roach and for Protoss, this is the Zealot. These are units with flat damage, few hard counters and are good (or do reasonably well) against virtually every other unit. They are also easy to build en masse. Terran only has this option in the Marine, Marines are ridiculously efficient, kill everything in large enough numbers and have the cost and supply to justify high numbers of them. But that is Bio and a completely different tech path from Mech (its interesting how the other 2 races do not deviate so much from a core tech path no matter what the lategame build is apart from Terran). Mech has no such unit. In the campaign, this is the Goliath - excellent utility, attacks both land and air, easily produced. In the HoTS beta, this was the Warhound (same thing but cluster rockets was just imba). It would have been the Hell Bat but it got nerfed, now it can't even kill a Zealot on equal tech. Terran Mech needs such a unit to act as a buffer and provide missing utility that would take a Mech army 4 different units to provide.
Giving Tanks EMP attack will not solve because Immortals and Archons will still 2 shot mech and Chargelots are still beefy enough to close the distance and start dicing the Mech. Increasing the flat damage (at least without DRASTICALLY rethinking map design) also will not help, because there is no circumstance or opportunity to take advantage of it when a Protoss army is so much more mobile on these huge, open maps. Its either you nerf Protoss into the ground, or Terran needs a new unit! That or Terrans just accept that you cannot go full Mech and instead go Bio Mech with Marines as good utility.
Utility should be a keyword in this game from now on.
Tanks receive an upgrade, researched at the tech lab, that widens the splash radius against shields. Think of it like an EMP-shell type thing. Perhaps the splash radius stays the same but the upgrade results in full damage to shields in the entire radius rather than the current graded radius system in place now.
On January 08 2014 00:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: Blizzard has always been very vague when talking about mech and this next step is no exception. Will it be the Tank? The Ghost? Air? LAN? We don't know.
It's difficult to give suggestions when you can't really tell the direction the devs. want to take. Different people give different suggestions because they see different problems.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
Quite possibly because they don't want to do it, but feel they have to respond to "community desire" for Mech. I think they are well aware of the large stone thrown into the pond that will be. I'm hoping they stay well away from buffing Mech until LoTV.
But, then, I'd prefer no further changes to the game, period. (Unless, if pressed, a time warp nerf and reversion of Oracle speed.)
So you are saying they are lying the community in an effort to keep potential new customers for a new expan$ion. My opinion on the current Dev team and Blizz in general has been very low in the last few years, but what you describe is just Kotick level Evil.
They are stalling, just like at the end of WoL. If mech is really gonna be viable pre LotV, this would be a miracle imo.
On January 08 2014 00:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: Blizzard has always been very vague when talking about mech and this next step is no exception. Will it be the Tank? The Ghost? Air? LAN? We don't know.
It's difficult to give suggestions when you can't really tell the direction the devs. want to take. Different people give different suggestions because they see different problems.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
Quite possibly because they don't want to do it, but feel they have to respond to "community desire" for Mech. I think they are well aware of the large stone thrown into the pond that will be. I'm hoping they stay well away from buffing Mech until LoTV.
But, then, I'd prefer no further changes to the game, period. (Unless, if pressed, a time warp nerf and reversion of Oracle speed.)
So you are saying they are lying the community in an effort to keep potential new customers for a new expan$ion. My opinion on the current Dev team and Blizz in general has been very low in the last few years, but what you describe is just Kotick level Evil.
They are stalling, just like at the end of WoL. If mech is really gonna be viable pre LotV, this would be a miracle imo.
Might be, but i heard that LOTV is about 3 or 4 years of and if that's true, it's a long time to keep finding excuses. I think this time they are really trying.
On January 08 2014 03:24 SC2Toastie wrote: ^ Some interesting thinking
Shock Shells...or something. Removing the Siege Mode upgrade was good for general tank use, but maybe it needs to be replaced with some kind of Ghost-ability so that TvP mech is actually doable. Hell, the explosion could be colored blue, it'd be cool lookin'.
People should remember that a buff to mech is a buff to BIOmech.
Terrans are TIRED to play the same thing in TvP since 4 years. They are TIRED to play more and more bio based games in TvZ too. VIEWERS are tired of it too. And Z/P complain all the time than T are doing the same thing every game.
A buff to mech units will be a buff to LOTS of playstyles. Who hated to see/play tvz marinetank? Who would like to see some more crazy compos like marauder hellbat TvP? Or even bioplay switching to mech slowly like BW TvZ?
Hell it can removes bio from one matchup completly for biomech or even mech only. It'll be a good thing aniway.
I dont understand how DK can say all thi stupid things he wrote like "thoughs". MScore from 60 to 40 sec PO is a joke.Same as the supposed tank buff.This is how Blizz balance the game? I want to see DK showing a TvP cheese before 10 min.Mvp won 4:3 the GSL with 2 rax proxy.This now is not possible.Neither Zerg or Terran will begin to win only by decreasing the PO with 20 miserable seconds.He said there is no data to see P OP in the game,because there are a few tournaments. How can he explain my games are almost 50% against P, 40% vs Z and 10% vs T in the ladder? Isnt this enough? There are too many P in the ladder man.They are winnig lot of tournaments, but will you wait as you did with WoL?I suppose the game will be balanced in 2016 with LotV... The roach burrow speed is another joke.Who cares??? In 4 years I have never face this, NEVER and now wont change. If you may make them able to kill while burrowed, maybe people will began to use them...Actually Zerg got only the infestor able to spanw terrans while invisible and killing or the SH used only in PvZ...In the prebeta vods there were SH fighting agains Terran armies of tanks and marines...What happened to this? The feedback about this change is just this one: NO ONE CARES, David Kim, and will continue even if you buff roaches to 7 speed... Mech changes. Buffing ghosts. Really? Buffing BIO unit to buff MECH?? REALLY? Better Tank vs armored??? Tanks are dying to Chargelots,archons and immortals.Nobody cares if they are better against armored. Roaches and TvT will be f...d.Is it really so difficult to add some +50 damage to protoss shields???Just this. Try it please. Just try it. Mech air? What is this?? Vikings+banshee+Battlecruisers? You will never see this in TvP. Maybe in TvT late game, but in TvP you wont survive till late game dying to chargelots runbies,storm drops or DT harass being sieged in the other side of the map. Masssive Prism Warpins are nice too. Mech air is slow and will do nothing to this. Ghosts buffed will only improve TvP BIO even more. David Kim, why dont you play some show match TvP with any of your game designer or from the balance team trying mech and try to explain why are you winning or losing?
On January 08 2014 06:10 MTAC wrote: People should remember that a buff to mech is a buff to BIOmech.
Terrans are TIRED to play the same thing in TvP since 4 years. They are TIRED to play more and more bio based games in TvZ too. VIEWERS are tired of it too. And Z/P complain all the time than T are doing the same thing every game.
A buff to mech units will be a buff to LOTS of playstyles. Who hated to see/play tvz marinetank? Who would like to see some more crazy compos like marauder hellbat TvP? Or even bioplay switching to mech slowly like BW TvZ?
Hell it can removes bio from one matchup completly for biomech or even mech only. It'll be a good thing aniway.
It doesn't really matter how much tanks are buffed unless they become completely absurd (for TvZ anyway), since mutas are the reason marine/tank is dead, not the ground stuff. Mutas are too fast and regen too quickly for marine/tank.
It doesn't really matter how much tanks are buffed unless they become completely absurd
Cheaper and more easily massables tanks could make marine tank live again, as it won't cut the same way into the marine numbers while getting the fire power. Maybe marine-tank is dead but this way marine/tank/mine maybe?
At least that kind of change wont kill any strategy in either MU but could allow for more diversity. This and a change for transfo upgrade to make EVERY transformation faster could be cool.
I'd like that kind of change better because it could hardly be OP as tanks are shit right now, IMO i would drop the cost even to 125/75 and don't change anything else. tanks will still be shit, but you would easily have like 9/10 tanks mid game + mines a few thors and HB. Enough to defend at home and attack.
At least that way it'll kill Turtle into mass raven/BC/thor we are seeing in TvZ/TvP. but a slight nerf to raven could be cool this way.
It doesn't really matter how much tanks are buffed unless they become completely absurd
Cheaper and more easily massables tanks could make marine tank live again, as it won't cut the same way into the marine numbers while getting the fire power. Maybe marine-tank is dead but this way marine/tank/mine maybe?
At least that kind of change wont kill any strategy in either MU but could allow for more diversity. This and a change for transfo upgrade to make EVERY transformation faster could be cool.
I'd like that kind of change better because it could hardly be OP as tanks are shit right now, IMO i would drop the cost even to 125/75 and don't change anything else. tanks will still be shit, but you would easily have like 9/10 tanks mid game + mines a few thors and HB. Enough to defend at home and attack.
At least that way it'll kill Turtle into mass raven/BC/thor we are seeing in TvZ/TvP. but a slight nerf to raven could be cool this way.
No, cheaper tanks won't bring marine tank back, because it doesn't solve the core issue with tanks sucking against zerg, compared to mines because.
Mines shoot at air. Mines require detection to decimate. Mines are more mobile and have shorter setup time. Mines are still way faster and cheaper to produce.
If you want marine tank, then you need to nerf mutas. To buff tanks to a level reasonable enough that they are worth getting over mines, would mean buffing them to a level where they are too good vs everything else and you cause more problems.
Its way better to just nerf mutas, either cut regen by half, or movement speed by 0.25 or maybe even both. Would also solve the stupid issue of some zergs refusing to fight toss head on and just going for wack a-mole base race starts with mutalisk, in both ZvT and ZvP.
It doesn't really matter how much tanks are buffed unless they become completely absurd
Cheaper and more easily massables tanks could make marine tank live again, as it won't cut the same way into the marine numbers while getting the fire power. Maybe marine-tank is dead but this way marine/tank/mine maybe?
At least that kind of change wont kill any strategy in either MU but could allow for more diversity. This and a change for transfo upgrade to make EVERY transformation faster could be cool.
I'd like that kind of change better because it could hardly be OP as tanks are shit right now, IMO i would drop the cost even to 125/75 and don't change anything else. tanks will still be shit, but you would easily have like 9/10 tanks mid game + mines a few thors and HB. Enough to defend at home and attack.
At least that way it'll kill Turtle into mass raven/BC/thor we are seeing in TvZ/TvP. but a slight nerf to raven could be cool this way.
No, cheaper tanks won't bring marine tank back, because it doesn't solve the core issue with tanks sucking against zerg, compared to mines because.
Mines shoot at air. Mines require detection to decimate. Mines are more mobile and have shorter setup time. Mines are still way faster and cheaper to produce.
If you want marine tank, then you need to nerf mutas. To buff tanks to a level reasonable enough that they are worth getting over mines, would mean buffing them to a level where they are too good vs everything else and you cause more problems.
Its way better to just nerf mutas, either cut regen by half, or movement speed by 0.25 or maybe even both. Would also solve the stupid issue of some zergs refusing to fight toss head on and just going for wack a-mole base race starts with mutalisk, in both ZvT and ZvP.
Not gonna lie, mutas are pretty dumb in ZvP. The matchup as a whole might be balanced, but the only response from toss to Mutas is immediate base trade or go phoenix ASAP, and muta/corrupter is a royal bitch and a half to fight with phoenix. Protoss ground units can't deal with mutalisks at all.
i cant speak for terrans but for me it feels like zerg is still the weakest race. and its the least fun race to play. i would love to see mutas nerfed and infestors being playable again and not die to drops. i dont want the old infestor back but it has to be something like extra damage to energy units or so. that you get rewarded for catching medivacs and then dont have any more energy to defend against the ground army.
People are still posting useless "Buff Damage/Give New Ability Changes". So I'm just going to reiterate what I said earlier:
""""""""""""" It really irks me the way all the randoms in here are coming up with unnecessarily complicated band-aid applications in order to "fix" mech. Mech cannot be fixed in its current state, because it was BROKEN from the start.
There are 3 things which break Mech:
1. Protoss units in general. The Immortal, Zealot, Stalker, Archon, Tempest, Voidray etc etc all hard/soft counter Mech in some way shape or form. This is undisputed knowledge and anyone arguing against this needs to go back and review the match up. Terran units do not have much in response and are either at a mobility disadvantage or cannot match the quantity of counters that Protoss has against it. You can say "Ghosts", but by that time the Terran is already trying to build Tanks, Thors, Ravens and Vikings.. Lets not talk about a heavy air transition here.
2. Maps. I've said this several times but I always get lambasted for it. The maps are utterly trash. I remember the early days of WoL where Terran fully abused the varied maps (of which they had much better thought and imagination poured into them) whilst the other 2 races were utterly clueless and cried imba. I saw Thor drops, Tank suppression from ledges overlooking greedy expands, height differences and blind spots which encouraged positional play and positions of power. I have not seen that since Antigua Shipyard. Mech can't function properly on these ridiculously huge maps with wide open planes, lots of dead air spaces and pretty much no chokes or positions of defence or slow pushing.
3. This is the most important point. What safeguards alot of the common strats of Zerg and Protoss? A unit with good utility and supply efficiency. For Zergs, this is the Roach and for Protoss, this is the Zealot. These are units with flat damage, few hard counters and are good (or do reasonably well) against virtually every other unit. They are also easy to build en masse. Terran only has this option in the Marine, Marines are ridiculously efficient, kill everything in large enough numbers and have the cost and supply to justify high numbers of them. But that is Bio and a completely different tech path from Mech (its interesting how the other 2 races do not deviate so much from a core tech path no matter what the lategame build is apart from Terran). Mech has no such unit. In the campaign, this is the Goliath - excellent utility, attacks both land and air, easily produced. In the HoTS beta, this was the Warhound (same thing but cluster rockets was just imba). It would have been the Hell Bat but it got nerfed, now it can't even kill a Zealot on equal tech. Terran Mech needs such a unit to act as a buffer and provide missing utility that would take a Mech army 4 different units to provide.
Giving Tanks EMP attack will not solve because Immortals and Archons will still 2 shot mech and Chargelots are still beefy enough to close the distance and start dicing the Mech. Increasing the flat damage (at least without DRASTICALLY rethinking map design) also will not help, because there is no circumstance or opportunity to take advantage of it when a Protoss army is so much more mobile on these huge, open maps. Its either you nerf Protoss into the ground, or Terran needs a new unit! That or Terrans just accept that you cannot go full Mech and instead go Bio Mech with Marines as good utility.
Utility should be a keyword in this game from now on. """""""""""""
Mech is also at a fairly OK place in T v Z although weak to Swarmhosts and tech switches between Ultra and Broodlord Corruptor. Mass Roach timings also damage Mech progression quite a bit. But skill plays an important part in this MU and if the Terran is the better player then he will usually win. If we were to goo through changes of buffing damage of giving new abilities then Zergs would never win vs Mech.
So be careful what you are saying and I think a mod should really start keeping an eye on some of the posting here.. it just reads like bnet forums now.
On January 09 2014 04:10 TheManInBlack wrote: So be careful what you are saying and I think a mod should really start keeping an eye on some of the posting here.. it just reads like bnet forums now.
Says the guy who literally just re-posted his prior post. I like to read other people's ideas on how to address the situation, even if they go against your theory.
On January 09 2014 04:10 TheManInBlack wrote: So be careful what you are saying and I think a mod should really start keeping an eye on some of the posting here.. it just reads like bnet forums now.
Says the guy who literally just re-posted his prior post. I like to read other people's ideas on how to address the situation, even if they go against your theory.
I rewrote it because I thought it had an interesting take on the situation rather than devolving into "buff this" and "give this unit this ability" spam that would fit more in bnet forums. All I see here is whining and I'll be honest it irritated me that my post was ignored so other people can post their inane (and quite frankly ill-thought out) ideas.
So, 10 months later, people reaalize that T needs Warhound back to make Mech viable against P. That way we can finally do something else than Bio everywhere and every mach.
I'm fine with buffing Terran mech as long as Zerg AA is buffed. But that won't happen until LotV.
Queen speed upgrade coming LotV to address Zerg's poor AA.
Also a Hellbat/Thor combine upgrade that increases it's movement speed when it transforms into a semi truck. Takes 1 second to transform. Blizzard will call him Optimus Prime. Calling it now.
On January 10 2014 20:54 drkcid wrote: So, 10 months later, people reaalize that T needs Warhound back to make Mech viable against P. That way we can finally do something else than Bio everywhere and every mach.
as far as i can remember warhound + tanks is like bio-tank comp right ?
On January 10 2014 20:54 drkcid wrote: So, 10 months later, people reaalize that T needs Warhound back to make Mech viable against P. That way we can finally do something else than Bio everywhere and every mach.
as far as i can remember warhound + tanks is like bio-tank comp right ?
I think people completely skipped tanks and just massed warhound instead because it was just that good
On January 10 2014 20:54 drkcid wrote: So, 10 months later, people reaalize that T needs Warhound back to make Mech viable against P. That way we can finally do something else than Bio everywhere and every mach.
as far as i can remember warhound + tanks is like bio-tank comp right ?
I think people completely skipped tanks and just massed warhound instead because it was just that good
It was an anti mechanical unit, and all Protoss units that are not light are mechanical. So Hellbat Warhound was all you really needed. It didn't fix mech, it replaced it with a generic move and shoot army. Worst unit ever.
On January 10 2014 20:54 drkcid wrote: So, 10 months later, people reaalize that T needs Warhound back to make Mech viable against P. That way we can finally do something else than Bio everywhere and every mach.
as far as i can remember warhound + tanks is like bio-tank comp right ?
I think people completely skipped tanks and just massed warhound instead because it was just that good
It was an anti mechanical unit, and all Protoss units that are not light are mechanical. So Hellbat Warhound was all you really needed. It didn't fix mech, it replaced it with a generic move and shoot army. Worst unit ever.
Worst unit ever indeed. Making a unit more boring than Colossi is quite the feat. I wonder why blizz didn't try to rework it into something interesting, they are always so eager to delete stuff from the game instead of trying to balance it, lazy balancing team.