French organizations O'Gaming TV, Millenium, and aAa claim they have been barred by ESL from providing French language streams of the upcoming WCS Europe Premier League. In a post on TeamLiquid.net, O'Gaming's SC2 Tournament Director Kerri stated that "Today, ESL Decision was given to us: Access to the WCS is forbidden to French organizations"
However, ESL has denied this claim. ESL Director Michal Blicharz (Carmac) said that the French organizations are free to stream WCS Europe, as long as it through WCS stream partner Twitch. "It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday." posted Carmac in reply to the claims from the French organizations.
As of February 18th, the opening night of WCS Europe's Premier League, there is no official French stream. German, Russian, Polish, Italian, and Spanish streams are being provided by ESL partners.
The dispute appears to center around a conflict between preferred streaming platforms: DailyMotion for French organizations, and Twitch, the official streaming partner of WCS. Carmac alluded to this problem, saying "The conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue."
The three organizations O'Gaming, Millenium, and aAa had been involved in WCS 2013 in varying degrees, sometimes providing dual streams on both the DailyMotion and Twitch platforms. Notably, the three organizations partnered up to provide a French language stream for the WCS Season 3 Finals, streamed on both Twitch and DailyMotion.
In the 2014 season, Millenium TV had already streamed portions of the 2014 WCS Challenger League Qualifiers.
During the 2014 Challenger League for WCS Europe, German, Polish, and Russian language streams were provided by ESL partners in addition to the official English stream.
On February 15 2014 04:54 SC2Kerri wrote: Dear Starcraft II community,
My name is Sebastien « Kerri », I am the Starcraft II Tournament Director at O’Gaming TV.
France has one of the biggest community in Europe and is very structured thanks to two very professional TVs: O’Gaming TV & Millenium TV. You probably know us and you already followed our different products: Dailymotion Cup , NationWars, MSI Pro Cup, Numericable M-House Cup, Iron Squid I & II. We made the best players come in our country, we gave to the Starcraft II fans the best shows and gathered the French-speaking countries on high-quality streams.
O’Gaming, aAa – which was in charge of casting WCS in 2013 - and Millenium have recently wanted to build a partnership and to work together to apply for casting in French WCS Europe. This Partnership is for us the best way to enable all our fans meet the biggest SC2 competition with all the best French casters.
Today, ESL Decision was given to us: Access to the WCS is forbidden to French organizations.
We love Starcraft II. We love E-Sport. We love WCS. If you support our work, I kindly invite you to share this post !
On February 15 2014 07:44 Carmac wrote: It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday.
Obtaining broadcasting rights for WCS Europe was not something that we made difficult and the fact that the league has been broadcasted in five different languages is evidence of that.
The ESL and Blizzard have nothing against OgamingTV broadcasting the StarCraft II World Championship Series in French. We have the highest regard and admiration for the quality of their work and see them as a valued supporter of the StarCraft II community.
The conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue.
I think that if the French are willing to use Twitch (because it is a partner), then they should compromise and use Twitch. If the platform isn't the issue... well, I think this is just silly.
Thanks for bringing us the news stories so fast Wax
Everyone in the sc2 scene should do everything they can do stagnate the sc2-decline as much as possible. Fails like this isn't helping anything to say the least...
That's a nasty blow. French community always was a very nice part of the Starcraft scene. I would kind of understand not allowing Dailymotion since Twitch is an official partner, but not allowing French organizations to have streams of a WCS Europe? I just don't see why that decision would be made.
I don't agree with this. Because in Russia and Post Soviet countries - Twitch is the worst player. Because it always lagging in all posible qualities: from Source to Medium. I want use player - which i want. I'm a viewer. advertizing is aimed at me, instead of at organizers
Can someone enlightenment as to why the french organizations in particular associate with Dailymotion so much in the first place? Is DM french owned or something? (EDIT: Okay I checked, it is indeed french owned)
Also yeah if there is some sort of money being passed around for twitch exclusivity and what have you, then I see no problems here, had they refused to stream on twitch. Alternatively, is there something in the Blizzard rules or whatever that disallows restreaming? It could be as simple as that.
This entire thing reeks of taking things out of context and trying to stir up drama over nothing.
On February 15 2014 06:52 PoDuoH wrote: I don't agree with this. Because in Russia and Post Soviet countries - Twitch is the worst player. Because it always lagging in all posible qualities: from Source to Medium. I want use player - which i want. I'm a viewer. advertizing is aimed at me, instead of at organizers
The thing is, contractually, Twitch is the exclusive partner of WCS. If the French organizations want provide a French language stream, then they will have to play ball with WCS and exclusively use Twitch for just their WCS broadcasts.
If this is a platform issue, that is. That seems to be most likely issue at the moment.
If it's a Twitch thing, that's really stupid. If the Twitch partnership is preventing people streaming on other services, Twitch should make their service usable first, THEN ban other services.
Maybe one day we will live in a nice world like LoL Champ Series where you can watch on Youtube or Twitch, rather than being forced to use Twitch. While Twitch may have managed to get de facto control over streaming, it's still a bad enough service that dual stream options should be standard for major events.
even if dailymotion is more profitable for french stream, they already used twitch a lot when it was necessary like for dreamhack, iem or even wcs (aAa streaming the whole season on twitch)
so i don't understand why people jumping on the fact that this is the main issue ?
what is the reason then to forbid any french stream ?
No statement from ESL yet. And whining like that is higly unproffesional. I wouldnt like to work with O'Gaming after that. Don't know what they expect to achieve with trying to make a drama.
On February 15 2014 07:03 Kylo55 wrote: No statement from ESL yet. And whining like that is higly unproffesional. I wouldnt like to work with O'Gaming after that. Don't know what they expect to achieve with trying to make a drama.
IMO, if the French streams offered to use Twitch and were still denied, it is on ESL
Assuming it's not a Twitch vs. Dailymotion thing, it's not complicated.
Blizzard/(IEM?) doesn't want restreams because they don't control/moderate the content on those restreams and don't want to be held responsible for them in any capacity. End of story.
I don't like the Twitch monopoly, frankly I think it has given them carte blanche to not improve their service for quite some time now. However, they do have an exclusivity contract by the sounds of it, so are within the rights to enforce it.
There's not much to discuss until either Blizzard or ESL makes an official statement on the matter. I really do hope this will be resolved, francophone streams often have a lot of viewers so I assume there is a great deal of interest for it.
On February 15 2014 07:05 MCXD wrote: Look, it's not complicated.
Blizzard/(IEM?) doesn't want restreams because they don't control/moderate the content on those restreams and don't want to be held responsible for them in any capacity.
End of story.
What he said, and 90% of the other people who posted in here.. Its simple if you wanna broadcast WCS in your language you have to use Twitch. simple as that..
On February 15 2014 07:06 Wombat_NI wrote: Not sure what to think.
I don't like the Twitch monopoly, frankly I think it has given them carte blanche to not improve their service for quite some time now. However, they do have an exclusivity contract by the sounds of it, so are within the rights to enforce it.
it's hard to call it a "monopoly" because SC2 esport is a very niche business and WCS/blizzard are the only relevant organization in terms of providing the content that most people care about watching. it's different from talking about something like, for example, cable companies being bought out in the US, because millions of people watch cable for lots of different reasons and different tastes. SC2 is just SC2 and if one organization has the winning bid to provide streaming service, what can you do about it?
you have to treat it with the perspective that SC2 just isn't a major enterprise
It is true though what the guy on first page said, the twitch has terrible servers for some parts of east and south Europe and the lag is incomparably worse than on dailymotion...
As far as I know, no official reason was given to justify why the french community can't have a french stream. But I think it is safe to assume that the Twitch problem isn't the real deal. indeed.
But well, so far we can make guesses : The facts : - O'Gaming/Millenium/aAa had all talks with Blizzard and ESL to try to have the right to stream the WCS. - LoL IEM had a french stream on Twitch, same for some other events such as DreamHacks... french organizations would agree to stream these events on twitch but not WCS ? I don't think that our french community is making drama just to make drama. - O'Gaming/Millenium/aAa said that the french community isn't allowed to have his own WCS stream.
Then, I guess that the Twitch reason isn't a real reason. Indeed french TVs that are "on air" all the day long on SC2 must have like at least 3 times less viewers on their stream than on big tournaments streams. Then, except if Dailymotion pays like 10 times better than twitch (i highly doubt it), this isn't less worth for them than a standard stream (which must be worth, either the TV would die). In the end, the reason must be elsewhere but remains unknown.
On February 15 2014 07:05 MCXD wrote: Look, it's not complicated.
Blizzard/(IEM?) doesn't want restreams because they don't control/moderate the content on those restreams and don't want to be held responsible for them in any capacity.
End of story.
What he said, and 90% of the other people who posted in here.. Its simple if you wanna broadcast WCS in your language you have to use Twitch. simple as that..
But like many have already said, they offered to stream by twitch but ESL is still not letting them to stream.
Well, if Twitch pays money to Blizzard, which is highly possible, then it's the same as in real sports. just because NBC says "we want to show NBA games" they are not allowed to do that because other stations paid for the rights. If that's the case here with Twitch/Dailymotion then it's totally understandable.
On February 15 2014 07:12 Ishentar wrote: As far as I know, no official reason was given to justify why the french community can't have a french stream. But I think it is safe to assume that the Twitch problem isn't the real deal. indeed.
But well, so far we can make guesses : The facts : - O'Gaming/Millenium/aAa had all talks with Blizzard and ESL to try to have the right to stream the WCS. - LoL IEM had a french stream on Twitch, same for some other events such as DreamHacks... french organizations would agree to stream these events on twitch but not WCS ? I don't think that our french community is making drama just to make drama. - O'Gaming/Millenium/aAa said that the french community isn't allowed to have his own WCS stream.
Then, I guess that the Twitch reason isn't a real reason. Indeed french TVs that are "on air" all the day long on SC2 must have like at least 3 times less viewers on their stream than on big tournaments streams. Then, except if Dailymotion pays like 10 times better than twitch (i highly doubt it), this isn't less worth for them than a standard stream (which must be worth, either the TV would die). In the end, the reason must be elsewhere but remains unknown.
IIRC Dailymotion's CPM is like 3x higher than Twitch's.
On February 15 2014 07:13 andoRRR wrote: Well, if Twitch pays money to Blizzard, which is highly possible, then it's the same as in real sports. just because NBC says "we want to show NBA games" they are not allowed to do that because other stations paid for the rights. If that's the case here with Twitch/Dailymotion then it's totally understandable.
if NBC had shitty picture quality and service interruptions in major parts of the US and didn't make an effort to provide a better product, it would be an outrageous exploitation of their contract
however, like i said, you can't compare a huge industry like pro basketball in one country to a niche market like streaming SC2 all over the world. the infrastructure just isn't the same
MLG allows their MLG TKO tournament to have localized language-streams on twitch despite their obvious interest in having as many viewers as possible on the MLG site. I don't see why that can't be the case here. The french community, backed by the french streaming service Dailymotion, has been very important for the SC2 scene as a whole and deserves to be heard on this matter, in my opinion.
On February 15 2014 07:12 Ishentar wrote: As far as I know, no official reason was given to justify why the french community can't have a french stream. But I think it is safe to assume that the Twitch problem isn't the real deal. indeed.
But well, so far we can make guesses : The facts : - O'Gaming/Millenium/aAa had all talks with Blizzard and ESL to try to have the right to stream the WCS. - LoL IEM had a french stream on Twitch, same for some other events such as DreamHacks... french organizations would agree to stream these events on twitch but not WCS ? I don't think that our french community is making drama just to make drama. - O'Gaming/Millenium/aAa said that the french community isn't allowed to have his own WCS stream.
Then, I guess that the Twitch reason isn't a real reason. Indeed french TVs that are "on air" all the day long on SC2 must have like at least 3 times less viewers on their stream than on big tournaments streams. Then, except if Dailymotion pays like 10 times better than twitch (i highly doubt it), this isn't less worth for them than a standard stream (which must be worth, either the TV would die). In the end, the reason must be elsewhere but remains unknown.
On February 15 2014 07:13 andoRRR wrote: Well, if Twitch pays money to Blizzard, which is highly possible, then it's the same as in real sports. just because NBC says "we want to show NBA games" they are not allowed to do that because other stations paid for the rights. If that's the case here with Twitch/Dailymotion then it's totally understandable.
In this case, then it might be a revenue sharing issue. This is pure speculation here. But ESL might have wanted the revenues generated from French streams, while the French organizers wanted to keep the revenue, since they were the ones providing the service. Since French organizers wouldn't give up the rights to the revenues, ESL denied them?
I repeat, this may be pure speculation on the issue. If it wasn't a streaming platform issue, that is.
On February 15 2014 07:14 Complete wrote: ...It's slightly ridiculous that their response to this is to make it public to get the community mad at them.
...
true, but the community shares blame for being drama-hungry and being willing to get angry or make assumptions based on very few facts
Also, Ogaming, Millenium and aAa have been working by the past with Twitch for IEM, Ironsquid... So I guess we will need a word from them or the ESL to know what's beyond this. But this is a sad news. Those people had been working very hard for the community
On February 15 2014 07:14 Complete wrote: ...It's slightly ridiculous that their response to this is to make it public to get the community mad at them.
...
true, but the community shares blame for being drama-hungry and being willing to get angry or make assumptions based on very few facts
On February 15 2014 07:12 Ishentar wrote: As far as I know, no official reason was given to justify why the french community can't have a french stream. But I think it is safe to assume that the Twitch problem isn't the real deal. indeed.
But well, so far we can make guesses : The facts : - O'Gaming/Millenium/aAa had all talks with Blizzard and ESL to try to have the right to stream the WCS. - LoL IEM had a french stream on Twitch, same for some other events such as DreamHacks... french organizations would agree to stream these events on twitch but not WCS ? I don't think that our french community is making drama just to make drama. - O'Gaming/Millenium/aAa said that the french community isn't allowed to have his own WCS stream.
Then, I guess that the Twitch reason isn't a real reason. Indeed french TVs that are "on air" all the day long on SC2 must have like at least 3 times less viewers on their stream than on big tournaments streams. Then, except if Dailymotion pays like 10 times better than twitch (i highly doubt it), this isn't less worth for them than a standard stream (which must be worth, either the TV would die). In the end, the reason must be elsewhere but remains unknown.
On February 15 2014 07:13 andoRRR wrote: Well, if Twitch pays money to Blizzard, which is highly possible, then it's the same as in real sports. just because NBC says "we want to show NBA games" they are not allowed to do that because other stations paid for the rights. If that's the case here with Twitch/Dailymotion then it's totally understandable.
In this case, then it might be a revenue sharing issue. This is pure speculation here. But ESL might have wanted the revenues generated from French streams, while the French organizers wanted to keep the revenue. Since French organizers wouldn't give up the rights to the revenues, ESL denied them?
I repeat, this may be pure speculation on the issue. If it wasn't a streaming platform issue, that is.
i didn't think of that but it can be this, because like i said before wcs were already streamed on twitch by french organization so i don't know why it would be an issue here
On February 15 2014 07:14 Complete wrote: ...It's slightly ridiculous that their response to this is to make it public to get the community mad at them.
...
true, but the community shares blame for being drama-hungry and being willing to get angry or make assumptions based on very few facts
The community isn't a professional organization.
so what? people should behave rationally whether they're professional or not o_O i agree professionalism is a separate issue, but let's call a spade a spade. if people overreact and help create drama, that's their fault. no one is forcing people to do that
On February 15 2014 07:14 Complete wrote: ...It's slightly ridiculous that their response to this is to make it public to get the community mad at them.
...
I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them.
On February 15 2014 07:06 Wombat_NI wrote: Not sure what to think.
I don't like the Twitch monopoly, frankly I think it has given them carte blanche to not improve their service for quite some time now. However, they do have an exclusivity contract by the sounds of it, so are within the rights to enforce it.
it's hard to call it a "monopoly" because SC2 esport is a very niche business and WCS/blizzard are the only relevant organization in terms of providing the content that most people care about watching. it's different from talking about something like, for example, cable companies being bought out in the US, because millions of people watch cable for lots of different reasons and different tastes. SC2 is just SC2 and if one organization has the winning bid to provide streaming service, what can you do about it?
you have to treat it with the perspective that SC2 just isn't a major enterprise
Streaming as a whole business appears to be on the upward curve though, Twitch getting exclusive access to such premium content to the detriment of other services means they don't have to address the problems of their service, especially to certain parts of the globe.
How can anyone be so ignorant to say that they would have to use Twitch.tv if asked for over Dailymotion?
At the end of the day, this is blizzards tournament, and according to their official rules they only suggest Twitch as the platform to use, it's not a requirement for WCS tournaments.
If using Dailymotion is the platform which has the biggest reach in the French community, it should be their obligation to use it, for the sake of eSport and the tournament. Also, while it might be due to the fact that it has lower amount of streamers but Dailymotion is soo much more stable to watch than Twitch who has only gotten worse at least in EU over a long period of time(ok, recently they improved their servers slightly but in the past it used to be better than it is currently, it's still a horrible platform).
As with everyone, of course I don't know if this was the deciding factor, but that people can even think for a second that ESL should be able to dictate the streaming platform of their partners is just disgusting....
Well it does only make sense for them to ban streams on a competing platform, seeing as they're partnered with Twitch. And as for people voluntarily using Dailymotion for anything, well, Twitch must be really awful in the French speaking parts of Europe if that's what they're resorting to.
This sucks. Twitch is a pretty terrible streaming service for vast majority of European regions and have been for sometime. Not much effort on twitch side of things to fix a lot of their problems because they have no real competition. Hope they work things out, besides Sweden, France has a pretty huge sc2 following.
On February 15 2014 07:27 Cinim wrote: How can anyone be so ignorant to say that they would have to use Twitch.tv if asked for over Dailymotion?
At the end of the day, this is blizzards tournament, and according to their official rules they only suggest Twitch as the platform to use, it's not a requirement for WCS tournaments.
If using Dailymotion is the platform which has the biggest reach in the French community, it should be their obligation to use it, for the sake of eSport and the tournament. Also, while it might be due to the fact that it has lower amount of streamers but Dailymotion is soo much more stable to watch than Twitch who has only gotten worse at least in EU over a long period of time(ok, recently they improved their servers slightly but in the past it used to be better than it is currently, it's still a horrible platform).
As with everyone, of course I don't know if this was the deciding factor, but that people can even think for a second that ESL should be able to dictate the streaming platform of their partners is just disgusting....
Well ESL is organizer of WCS EU and because of this has right to dictate everythink that is legal to their partners. Theres nothing disgusting about that. Its just bussines and ESL is sharing the cake by giving the rights to stream something, so they obiviously can make the rules about this sharing. Parties in this situation are definityly not equal.
All I can say by having a good knowledge of these structures is that they are all very serious and professional ones, certainly better than 90 % of other WCS streams.
All of them have the blizzard licence to make tournaments, all of them have decent webTVs all of them always paid their players on time and all of them are very implied in the starcraft II scene.
This news is bullshit, i can understand if its for the dailymotion thing tho since blizzard have signed a contract its only normal to respect it. Any other reason is not acceptable.
On February 15 2014 07:27 Cinim wrote: How can anyone be so ignorant to say that they would have to use Twitch.tv if asked for over Dailymotion?
At the end of the day, this is blizzards tournament, and according to their official rules they only suggest Twitch as the platform to use, it's not a requirement for WCS tournaments.
If using Dailymotion is the platform which has the biggest reach in the French community, it should be their obligation to use it, for the sake of eSport and the tournament. Also, while it might be due to the fact that it has lower amount of streamers but Dailymotion is soo much more stable to watch than Twitch who has only gotten worse at least in EU over a long period of time(ok, recently they improved their servers slightly but in the past it used to be better than it is currently, it's still a horrible platform).
As with everyone, of course I don't know if this was the deciding factor, but that people can even think for a second that ESL should be able to dictate the streaming platform of their partners is just disgusting....
French organisations quarreling with internationals ones and acting like childrens. How fucking familiar. And they wonder why only pure casuals watch french streams.
Why would you defend ESL's anti-competitive behavior (if we accept the above premise, we're still speculating)? Even if it makes business sense for ESL to make their partner twitch the sole platform, it is obviously harmful to the SC2 scene as a whole to cut off the very important french community from streaming on what is for them a very important platform (as backer of the teams and organizations). Only ESL wins, everyone else loses. Why anyone without a financial stake in ESL would accept that is beyond me.
I understand that daeilymotion has the same problems in the US that twitch has in much of Europe, but trust me when I tell you that for many Europeans dailymotion is the better and more consistent platform.
It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday.
Obtaining broadcasting rights for WCS Europe was not something that we made difficult and the fact that the league has been broadcasted in five different languages is evidence of that.
The ESL and Blizzard have nothing against OgamingTV broadcasting the StarCraft II World Championship Series in French. We have the highest regard and admiration for the quality of their work and see them as a valued supporter of the StarCraft II community.
The conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue.
On February 15 2014 07:41 Amiralsims wrote: Dailymotion has a CPM 4 or 5 times higher than twitch, that's why they want to use the french platform otherwise it's not profitable.
Yeah, in fact they would lose money by streaming WCS on Twitch (compared to an average stream on DM).
On February 15 2014 07:41 m0ck wrote: Why would you defend ESL's anti-competitive behavior (if we accept the above premise, we're still speculating)? Even if it makes business sense for ESL to make their partner twitch the sole platform, it is obviously harmful to the SC2 scene as a whole to cut off the very important french community from streaming on what is for them a very important platform (as backer of the teams and organizations). Only ESL wins, everyone else loses. Why anyone without a financial stake in ESL would accept that is beyond me.
I understand that daeilymotion has the same problems in the US that twitch has in much of Europe, but trust me when I tell you that for many Europeans dailymotion is the better and more consistent platform.
Maybe people here understand that if ESL wont make a profit they will not organize anything? And ESL giving up on SC2 would be more harmful to the scene? Or maybe people here simply understand how the bussines work and dont like childish behaviour, from serious companies.
//EDIT Well seeing Carmac's response i guess there is nothing more to talk about. Maybe except who the heck posted that info in the first place and why.
On February 15 2014 07:27 Cinim wrote: How can anyone be so ignorant to say that they would have to use Twitch.tv if asked for over Dailymotion?
At the end of the day, this is blizzards tournament, and according to their official rules they only suggest Twitch as the platform to use, it's not a requirement for WCS tournaments.
If using Dailymotion is the platform which has the biggest reach in the French community, it should be their obligation to use it, for the sake of eSport and the tournament. Also, while it might be due to the fact that it has lower amount of streamers but Dailymotion is soo much more stable to watch than Twitch who has only gotten worse at least in EU over a long period of time(ok, recently they improved their servers slightly but in the past it used to be better than it is currently, it's still a horrible platform).
As with everyone, of course I don't know if this was the deciding factor, but that people can even think for a second that ESL should be able to dictate the streaming platform of their partners is just disgusting....
Well ESL is organizer of WCS EU and because of this has right to dictate everythink that is legal to their partners. Theres nothing disgusting about that. Its just bussines and ESL is sharing the cake by giving the rights to stream something, so they obiviously can make the rules about this sharing. Parties in this situation are definityly not equal.
If you think the business part of it truly matters that much you are quite wrong. To an organisation as a whole, the ad revenue from twitch is quite unsignificant, why else do you think that they show advertisements on the stream, independent from twitch itself?
And yes it is disgusting, they are basicly giving one platform monopoly, something which in the EU is actually illegal(once again, if the platform really IS the dealbreaker)
Carmac improved a lot his english since he was a troll on sk forums I must say. No offense, no ban pls, I used to argue a lot with him back in the days
On February 15 2014 07:44 Carmac wrote: It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday.
Obtaining broadcasting rights for WCS Europe was not something that we made difficult and the fact that the league has been broadcasted in five different languages is evidence of that.
The ESL and Blizzard have nothing against OgamingTV broadcasting the StarCraft II World Championship Series in French. We have the highest regard and admiration for the quality of their work and see them as a valued supporter of the StarCraft II community.
The conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue.
Michal Blicharz Managing Director Pro Gaming, ESL
Well, I hope that is true, and also that you allow them to stream on whatever platform they choose, at the end of the day openness like that will benefit all of you the most
On February 15 2014 07:27 Cinim wrote: How can anyone be so ignorant to say that they would have to use Twitch.tv if asked for over Dailymotion?
At the end of the day, this is blizzards tournament, and according to their official rules they only suggest Twitch as the platform to use, it's not a requirement for WCS tournaments.
If using Dailymotion is the platform which has the biggest reach in the French community, it should be their obligation to use it, for the sake of eSport and the tournament. Also, while it might be due to the fact that it has lower amount of streamers but Dailymotion is soo much more stable to watch than Twitch who has only gotten worse at least in EU over a long period of time(ok, recently they improved their servers slightly but in the past it used to be better than it is currently, it's still a horrible platform).
As with everyone, of course I don't know if this was the deciding factor, but that people can even think for a second that ESL should be able to dictate the streaming platform of their partners is just disgusting....
Well ESL is organizer of WCS EU and because of this has right to dictate everythink that is legal to their partners. Theres nothing disgusting about that. Its just bussines and ESL is sharing the cake by giving the rights to stream something, so they obiviously can make the rules about this sharing. Parties in this situation are definityly not equal.
If you think the business part of it truly matters that much you are quite wrong. To an organisation as a whole, the ad revenue from twitch is quite unsignificant, why else do you think that they show advertisements on the stream, independent from twitch itself?
And yes it is disgusting, they are basicly giving one platform monopoly, something which in the EU is actually illegal(once again, if the platform really IS the dealbreaker)
It seems that the whole thing was simply not true. But i have to say that telling partner that you can broadcast ONE event on only one platform is far from monopoly, as far as it gets i would say. Nothing to argue about though. Im not a lawyer, but i would never call a thing like that a monopoly.
On February 15 2014 06:57 Norz wrote: This is typical french to refuse to adapt to english though. I do agree they kinda have a point, but it's so typical of them, really annoys me.
Also dailymotion is really, REALLY terrible.
For those that doesn't understand French situation. A lot of french internet providers are reducing heavily the band on purpose on TwitchTv and youtube so the only healthy streaming place is Dailymotion for us. So please don't say bullshit assumptions without knowing the french situation at least . Thanks!
On February 15 2014 06:57 MCXD wrote: Can someone enlightenment as to why the french organizations in particular associate with Dailymotion so much in the first place? Is DM french owned or something? (EDIT: Okay I checked, it is indeed french owned)
Also yeah if there is some sort of money being passed around for twitch exclusivity and what have you, then I see no problems here, had they refused to stream on twitch. Alternatively, is there something in the Blizzard rules or whatever that disallows restreaming? It could be as simple as that.
This entire thing reeks of taking things out of context and trying to stir up drama over nothing.
DM is indeed french owned, but it's also been stated by all french streamers that it's CPM is also higher.
On February 15 2014 04:54 SC2Kerri wrote: Dear Starcraft II community,
My name is Sebastien « Kerri », I am the Starcraft II Tournament Director at O’Gaming TV.
France has one of the biggest community in Europe and is very structured thanks to two very professional TVs: O’Gaming TV & Millenium TV. You probably know us and you already followed our different products: Dailymotion Cup , NationWars, MSI Pro Cup, Numericable M-House Cup, Iron Squid I & II. We made the best players come in our country, we gave to the Starcraft II fans the best shows and gathered the French-speaking countries on high-quality streams.
O’Gaming, aAa – which was in charge of casting WCS in 2013 - and Millenium have recently wanted to build a partnership and to work together to apply for casting in French WCS Europe. This Partnership is for us the best way to enable all our fans meet the biggest SC2 competition with all the best French casters.
Today, ESL Decision was given to us: Access to the WCS is forbidden to French organizations.
On February 15 2014 07:44 Carmac wrote: It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday.
Obtaining broadcasting rights for WCS Europe was not something that we made difficult and the fact that the league has been broadcasted in five different languages is evidence of that.
The ESL and Blizzard have nothing against OgamingTV broadcasting the StarCraft II World Championship Series in French. We have the highest regard and admiration for the quality of their work and see them as a valued supporter of the StarCraft II community.
The conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue.
Michal Blicharz Managing Director Pro Gaming, ESL
So now we have two completely conflicting statements. However, if O'Gaming wont broadcast when Carmac has said they are free to do so, then I'm more inclined to believe O'Gaming. If they don't broadcast, then I think it's likely they have a reason that they can't.
At the same time, Michal is probably much higher up on the ladder than Sebastien is, so his word does carry a bit more weight.
not sure why it is even a problem. esl/blizzard is providing the WCS EU, therefore they make the rules. I feel bad for the french SC2 community as they are the ones who suffer from this without being at fault at all here. it seems to work well with every other casting partner why cant the french organisations just follow suit?
On February 15 2014 07:44 Carmac wrote: It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday.
so it IS a twitch exclusivity issue Kerri was just plain lying to get the community in his favor (french is forbidden), really bad way to address the issue and to communicate (big surprise...)
On February 15 2014 06:59 Lonyo wrote: If it's a Twitch thing, that's really stupid. If the Twitch partnership is preventing people streaming on other services, Twitch should make their service usable first, THEN ban other services.
or, you know, just make their service better and not ban anything at all
anyway, i'll just resume on hating on blizzard for being bad (every other game handles esport better, lol, dota, csgo... multiple streaming platforms, ingame spectating, etc...)
On February 15 2014 07:41 m0ck wrote: Why would you defend ESL's anti-competitive behavior (if we accept the above premise, we're still speculating)? Even if it makes business sense for ESL to make their partner twitch the sole platform, it is obviously harmful to the SC2 scene as a whole to cut off the very important french community from streaming on what is for them a very important platform (as backer of the teams and organizations). Only ESL wins, everyone else loses. Why anyone without a financial stake in ESL would accept that is beyond me.
I understand that daeilymotion has the same problems in the US that twitch has in much of Europe, but trust me when I tell you that for many Europeans dailymotion is the better and more consistent platform.
Maybe people here understand that if ESL wont make a profit they will not organize anything? And ESL giving up on SC2 would be more harmful to the scene? Or maybe people here simply understand how the bussines work and dont like childish behaviour, from serious companies.
//EDIT Well seeing Carmac's response i guess there is nothing more to talk about. Maybe except who the heck posted that info in the first place and why.
If you remember, Dreamhack very much wanted to be the European partner for the broadcasting of WCS Europe. This is not a situation without viable alternatives to ESL and in any case, jumping to an extreme and letting the question of choice of platforms be a matter of life or death for ESL is laughable and wholly invented by you in order to defend ESL's decision.
Calling people disagreeing with the decision childish speaks more to your view of authority than anything else, I think.
On February 15 2014 07:14 Complete wrote: ...It's slightly ridiculous that their response to this is to make it public to get the community mad at them.
...
How do you figure? What should they have done? waited for this season to be over and fuck over tous les personnes francais!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I think they're doing the right thing, especially if they have exhausted all other options. They weren't disrespectful or unprofessional about ESL in the post, just stated the problem, the facts from their side, and called it a day.
The problem is not twitch or dailymotion. The fact is that ESL claiming a percentage of income that generate the stream of wcs on millenium or ogaming. The fact is that ESL is too greedy. So in the end it's all a question of money.
On February 15 2014 07:44 Carmac wrote: It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday.
Obtaining broadcasting rights for WCS Europe was not something that we made difficult and the fact that the league has been broadcasted in five different languages is evidence of that.
The ESL and Blizzard have nothing against OgamingTV broadcasting the StarCraft II World Championship Series in French. We have the highest regard and admiration for the quality of their work and see them as a valued supporter of the StarCraft II community.
The conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue.
Michal Blicharz Managing Director Pro Gaming, ESL
Well, I hope that is true, and also that you allow them to stream on whatever platform they choose, at the end of the day openness like that will benefit all of you the most
Wouldn't put my hopes up high. Blizzard made it clear that Twitch is the official partner for WCS, so I doubt that we will ever see the main events of WCS on a plattform other than Twitch. I don't like it either, but that decision has been made over half a year ago.
On February 15 2014 08:11 iknowthetrue wrote: The problem is not twitch or dailymotion. The fact is that ESL claiming a percentage of income that generate the stream of wcs on millenium or ogaming. The fact is that ESL is too greedy. So in the end it's all a question of money.
Do you have any sources for this? And also do they want extra money from the french stream compared to the several streams of the other countries?
On February 15 2014 07:44 Carmac wrote: It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday.
Obtaining broadcasting rights for WCS Europe was not something that we made difficult and the fact that the league has been broadcasted in five different languages is evidence of that.
The ESL and Blizzard have nothing against OgamingTV broadcasting the StarCraft II World Championship Series in French. We have the highest regard and admiration for the quality of their work and see them as a valued supporter of the StarCraft II community.
The conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue.
Michal Blicharz Managing Director Pro Gaming, ESL
Well, I hope that is true, and also that you allow them to stream on whatever platform they choose, at the end of the day openness like that will benefit all of you the most
Wouldn't put my hopes up high. Blizzard made it clear that Twitch is the official partner for WCS, so I doubt that we will ever see the main events of WCS on a plattform other than Twitch. I don't like it either, but that decision has been made over half a year ago.
I said it before, saying it again now. Twitch tv is according to blizzard NOT the official partner.
ESL might say it is for EU but blizzard has never announced anything, please read their full report about it...
Twitch is a partner of WCS but there is no requirement that you only stream on that platform,
On February 15 2014 07:14 Complete wrote: ...It's slightly ridiculous that their response to this is to make it public to get the community mad at them.
...
How do you figure? What should they have done? waited for this season to be over and fuck over tous les personnes francais!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I think they're doing the right thing, especially if they have exhausted all other options. They weren't disrespectful or unprofessional about ESL in the post, just stated the problem, the facts from their side, and called it a day.
Stating that WCS has banned French organizations from streaming when the issue is in fact all about the platform is a very deliberate way of trying to re-frame the issue to make ESL look bad by implying that they have some kind of prejudice against France or the French language. It's a distortion that sidesteps the real issue in favor of something inflammatory and misleading.
On February 15 2014 07:44 Carmac wrote: It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday.
Obtaining broadcasting rights for WCS Europe was not something that we made difficult and the fact that the league has been broadcasted in five different languages is evidence of that.
The ESL and Blizzard have nothing against OgamingTV broadcasting the StarCraft II World Championship Series in French. We have the highest regard and admiration for the quality of their work and see them as a valued supporter of the StarCraft II community.
The conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue.
Michal Blicharz Managing Director Pro Gaming, ESL
Well, I hope that is true, and also that you allow them to stream on whatever platform they choose, at the end of the day openness like that will benefit all of you the most
Wouldn't put my hopes up high. Blizzard made it clear that Twitch is the official partner for WCS, so I doubt that we will ever see the main events of WCS on a plattform other than Twitch. I don't like it either, but that decision has been made over half a year ago.
I said it before, saying it again now. Twitch tv is according to blizzard NOT the official partner.
ESL might say it is for EU but blizzard has never announced anything, please read their full report about it...
Twitch is a partner of WCS but there is no requirement that you only stream on that platform,
Aren't you contradicting yourself? I claimed that Twitch is the (I meant in the sense of streaming plattforms) official partner for WCS, then you say that it is "NOT the official partner" only to say "Twitch is a partner of WCS" afterwards...
Anyways, my point is that according to blizzard's WCS site, Twitch is a partner of WCS. So even if there is no clause of having to broadcast on Twitch exclusively, it wouldn't be a wise decision to sour the relationship too your partner by broadcasting on a competitor.
On February 15 2014 07:14 Complete wrote: ...It's slightly ridiculous that their response to this is to make it public to get the community mad at them.
...
How do you figure? What should they have done? waited for this season to be over and fuck over tous les personnes francais!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I think they're doing the right thing, especially if they have exhausted all other options. They weren't disrespectful or unprofessional about ESL in the post, just stated the problem, the facts from their side, and called it a day.
Stating that WCS has banned French organizations from streaming when the issue is in fact all about the platform is a very deliberate way of trying to re-frame the issue to make ESL look bad by implying that they have some kind of prejudice against France or the French language. It's a distortion that sidesteps the real issue in favor of something inflammatory and misleading.
It's funny and quite ironic that exactly what you are claiming that the guy from O'gaming is doing to ESL is what you are doing right now the other way around, please think before doing your next comment
Especially because to the french community, outting Dailymotion and banning them completely from covering the tournament is almost the same thing ^^
On February 15 2014 07:44 Carmac wrote: It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday.
Obtaining broadcasting rights for WCS Europe was not something that we made difficult and the fact that the league has been broadcasted in five different languages is evidence of that.
The ESL and Blizzard have nothing against OgamingTV broadcasting the StarCraft II World Championship Series in French. We have the highest regard and admiration for the quality of their work and see them as a valued supporter of the StarCraft II community.
The conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue.
Michal Blicharz Managing Director Pro Gaming, ESL
Well, I hope that is true, and also that you allow them to stream on whatever platform they choose, at the end of the day openness like that will benefit all of you the most
Wouldn't put my hopes up high. Blizzard made it clear that Twitch is the official partner for WCS, so I doubt that we will ever see the main events of WCS on a plattform other than Twitch. I don't like it either, but that decision has been made over half a year ago.
I said it before, saying it again now. Twitch tv is according to blizzard NOT the official partner.
ESL might say it is for EU but blizzard has never announced anything, please read their full report about it...
Twitch is a partner of WCS but there is no requirement that you only stream on that platform,
Aren't you contradicting yourself? I claimed that Twitch is the (or 'a') official partner for WCS, then you say that it is "NOT the official partner" only to say "Twitch is a partner of WCS" afterwards...
Anyways, my point is that according to blizzard's WCS site, Twitch is a partner of WCS. So even if there is no clause of having to broadcast on Twitch exclusively, it wouldn't be a wise decision to sour the relationship too your partner by broadcasting on a competitor.
Yes true, I phrased that a bit wrongly according to what I meant to say.
But still, since it's not an actualy requirement that they have to stream on twitch, it's really disgusting if that is indeed the reason that they exclude them from covering the event.
On February 15 2014 07:14 Complete wrote: ...It's slightly ridiculous that their response to this is to make it public to get the community mad at them.
...
How do you figure? What should they have done? waited for this season to be over and fuck over tous les personnes francais!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I think they're doing the right thing, especially if they have exhausted all other options. They weren't disrespectful or unprofessional about ESL in the post, just stated the problem, the facts from their side, and called it a day.
Stating that WCS has banned French organizations from streaming when the issue is in fact all about the platform is a very deliberate way of trying to re-frame the issue to make ESL look bad by implying that they have some kind of prejudice against France or the French language. It's a distortion that sidesteps the real issue in favor of something inflammatory and misleading.
It's funny and quite ironic that exactly what you are claiming that the guy from O'gaming is doing to ESL is what you are doing right now the other way around, please think before doing your next comment
Especially because to the french community, outting Dailymotion and banning them completely from covering the tournament is almost the same thing ^^
But "outting Dailymotion", if you mean not allowing Dailymotion, makes sense though, banning them outright does not.
On February 15 2014 07:44 Carmac wrote: It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday.
Obtaining broadcasting rights for WCS Europe was not something that we made difficult and the fact that the league has been broadcasted in five different languages is evidence of that.
The ESL and Blizzard have nothing against OgamingTV broadcasting the StarCraft II World Championship Series in French. We have the highest regard and admiration for the quality of their work and see them as a valued supporter of the StarCraft II community.
The conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue.
Michal Blicharz Managing Director Pro Gaming, ESL
Well, I hope that is true, and also that you allow them to stream on whatever platform they choose, at the end of the day openness like that will benefit all of you the most
Wouldn't put my hopes up high. Blizzard made it clear that Twitch is the official partner for WCS, so I doubt that we will ever see the main events of WCS on a plattform other than Twitch. I don't like it either, but that decision has been made over half a year ago.
I said it before, saying it again now. Twitch tv is according to blizzard NOT the official partner.
ESL might say it is for EU but blizzard has never announced anything, please read their full report about it...
Twitch is a partner of WCS but there is no requirement that you only stream on that platform,
Aren't you contradicting yourself? I claimed that Twitch is the (or 'a') official partner for WCS, then you say that it is "NOT the official partner" only to say "Twitch is a partner of WCS" afterwards...
Anyways, my point is that according to blizzard's WCS site, Twitch is a partner of WCS. So even if there is no clause of having to broadcast on Twitch exclusively, it wouldn't be a wise decision to sour the relationship too your partner by broadcasting on a competitor.
Yes true, I phrased that a bit wrongly according to what I meant to say.
But still, since it's not an actualy requirement that they have to stream on twitch, it's really disgusting if that is indeed the reason that they exclude them from covering the event.
Well, whether that is disgusting depends on personal opinion. I for one think that it makes sense not to start anything with a competitor of a partner in the context of the very project that you are partnering up for. Besides, we are purely speculating in the first place whether this criteria (a) exists and (b) was the main point of contention.
On February 15 2014 07:14 Complete wrote: ...It's slightly ridiculous that their response to this is to make it public to get the community mad at them.
...
How do you figure? What should they have done? waited for this season to be over and fuck over tous les personnes francais!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I think they're doing the right thing, especially if they have exhausted all other options. They weren't disrespectful or unprofessional about ESL in the post, just stated the problem, the facts from their side, and called it a day.
Stating that WCS has banned French organizations from streaming when the issue is in fact all about the platform is a very deliberate way of trying to re-frame the issue to make ESL look bad by implying that they have some kind of prejudice against France or the French language. It's a distortion that sidesteps the real issue in favor of something inflammatory and misleading.
It's funny and quite ironic that exactly what you are claiming that the guy from O'gaming is doing to ESL is what you are doing right now the other way around, please think before doing your next comment
Especially because to the french community, outting Dailymotion and banning them completely from covering the tournament is almost the same thing ^^
Intent is not difficult to discern when an organization makes a "statement" of that sort. They want to make themselves look victimized and make ESL look like the bad guys. It's even more obvious now that Carmac has posted clarification that the organization who claimed they were not allowed to broadcast WCS Europe is in fact permitted to do so, provided they use the official partner's platform.
On February 15 2014 07:14 Complete wrote: ...It's slightly ridiculous that their response to this is to make it public to get the community mad at them.
...
How do you figure? What should they have done? waited for this season to be over and fuck over tous les personnes francais!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I think they're doing the right thing, especially if they have exhausted all other options. They weren't disrespectful or unprofessional about ESL in the post, just stated the problem, the facts from their side, and called it a day.
Stating that WCS has banned French organizations from streaming when the issue is in fact all about the platform is a very deliberate way of trying to re-frame the issue to make ESL look bad by implying that they have some kind of prejudice against France or the French language. It's a distortion that sidesteps the real issue in favor of something inflammatory and misleading.
It's funny and quite ironic that exactly what you are claiming that the guy from O'gaming is doing to ESL is what you are doing right now the other way around, please think before doing your next comment
Especially because to the french community, outting Dailymotion and banning them completely from covering the tournament is almost the same thing ^^
Intent is not difficult to discern when an organization makes a "statement" of that sort. They want to make themselves look victimized and make ESL look like the bad guys. It's even more obvious now that Carmac has posted clarification that all of the organizations who claimed they were not allowed to broadcast WCS Europe are in fact permitted to do so, provided they use the official partner's platform.
Let's not get overeager, Carmac only wrote that streaming pattform was a point of contention. We do not know whether (a) ESL imposes a twitch exclusive rule onto all streamers (though that would make sense to me personally) and whether (b) this was the point over which the parties could not agree on.
On February 15 2014 07:44 Carmac wrote: It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday.
Obtaining broadcasting rights for WCS Europe was not something that we made difficult and the fact that the league has been broadcasted in five different languages is evidence of that.
The ESL and Blizzard have nothing against OgamingTV broadcasting the StarCraft II World Championship Series in French. We have the highest regard and admiration for the quality of their work and see them as a valued supporter of the StarCraft II community.
The conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue.
Michal Blicharz Managing Director Pro Gaming, ESL
Well, I hope that is true, and also that you allow them to stream on whatever platform they choose, at the end of the day openness like that will benefit all of you the most
Wouldn't put my hopes up high. Blizzard made it clear that Twitch is the official partner for WCS, so I doubt that we will ever see the main events of WCS on a plattform other than Twitch. I don't like it either, but that decision has been made over half a year ago.
I said it before, saying it again now. Twitch tv is according to blizzard NOT the official partner.
ESL might say it is for EU but blizzard has never announced anything, please read their full report about it...
Twitch is a partner of WCS but there is no requirement that you only stream on that platform,
Aren't you contradicting yourself? I claimed that Twitch is the (or 'a') official partner for WCS, then you say that it is "NOT the official partner" only to say "Twitch is a partner of WCS" afterwards...
Anyways, my point is that according to blizzard's WCS site, Twitch is a partner of WCS. So even if there is no clause of having to broadcast on Twitch exclusively, it wouldn't be a wise decision to sour the relationship too your partner by broadcasting on a competitor.
Yes true, I phrased that a bit wrongly according to what I meant to say.
But still, since it's not an actualy requirement that they have to stream on twitch, it's really disgusting if that is indeed the reason that they exclude them from covering the event.
This is ESL's way of punishing France for the irreversible damage Stephano's and FireCake's swarm hosts have wrought upon the minds of everyone. It's good to see someone taking action. BRING TOD THEIR HEADS and French SC2 will be restored.
I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them.
Ogaming guys just dont care they make business in France and have a very high credibility/reputation on their market so honestly, this doesnt matter much.
Plus this issue of french streams have been experienced in the past, this is not an issue that appeared yesterday, On the bright side making it pubic is forcing ESL to react so why not ?
Seeing the 2 posts of Kerri/Carmac, its pretty clear that the real problem here is money. OGaming/aAa/Millenium probably dont want to give ESL a percentage of their streaming benefits (could be that or they just dont agree on the percentage).
I think ESL probably wants to apply to the French Partnership the same rate than they apply to any other non ESL streamers (Mori, TakeTv, BasetradeTV etc. )
But you have to understand its just not the same production value. They just want to make a good show, please fans, attract fans, (yeah, attract, because the regular french guy who will buy sc2 and begin to follow stream etc. will do so through french streams and not through english ones). They must support about maybe 10/12 wage earning employee to do so. (not like Take, Basetrade etc.) So they just cannot share the stream revenues with ESL.
I dont know the details of contracts (exclusivity etc.) but the main goal of all this is promoting esports right ? I really wish they can sort it out. I am confident.
WCS Season 3 finals was broadcasted on Dailymotion btw.
I understand that they have to brodcast it on Twitch but they can't afford it. They would lose money and moreover, Twitch.tv is a mess if you have the wrong Internet provider.
On February 15 2014 07:03 Kylo55 wrote: No statement from ESL yet. And whining like that is higly unproffesional. I wouldnt like to work with O'Gaming after that. Don't know what they expect to achieve with trying to make a drama.
IMO, if the French streams offered to use Twitch and were still denied, it is on ESL
They weren't that is why this has come about. All WCS events are broadcast on twitch now, so it would be counter productive for a partnership between WCS events and Twitch to have their events broadcast on a different streaming platform.
On February 15 2014 07:03 Kylo55 wrote: No statement from ESL yet. And whining like that is higly unproffesional. I wouldnt like to work with O'Gaming after that. Don't know what they expect to achieve with trying to make a drama.
IMO, if the French streams offered to use Twitch and were still denied, it is on ESL
They weren't that is why this has come about. All WCS events are broadcast on twitch now, so it would be counter productive for a partnership between WCS events and Twitch to have their events broadcast on a different streaming platform.
Don't drink the Kool-aid. What about it is counter-productive?
Funny thing is even MLG allowed O'Gaming to broadcast their events for free (yes for free when you had to pay your english stream and yes on daily ) in 720p back when MLG still did huge tournaments.
it would be counter productive for a partnership between WCS events and Twitch to have their events broadcast on a different streaming platform.
(Im making assumptions here) Counter-productive for who ? For esports/WCS/Blizzard or for ESL ? What is the point of the partnership with Twitch ? Higher CPM for the official streamer that is ESL (I guess, could be Twitch frontpage favoured or a bunch of other advantages). So basically if The French Partnership (Ogaming/aAa/Millenium) streams on Twitch (even if they don't have to share revenues with ESL) they don't benefit from the Twitch partnership (once again, I guess). So basically they bring a good production value which they can't make profitable. THAT is counter-productive.
On February 15 2014 09:45 shid0x wrote: Funny thing is even MLG allowed O'Gaming to broadcast their events for free (yes for free when you had to pay your english stream and yes on daily ) in 720p back when MLG still did huge tournaments.
Gamekult is owned by the same company which owned MLG I think. It's funny to see that 2014 WCS Europe Qualifiers were streamed on MilleniumTV with a peak over 7000 viewers, it was the first stream behind the official one.
On February 15 2014 09:45 shid0x wrote: Funny thing is even MLG allowed O'Gaming to broadcast their events for free (yes for free when you had to pay your english stream and yes on daily ) in 720p back when MLG still did huge tournaments.
i am not sure how this is relevant if you have a contract with a sponsor like twitch.tv, you need to fullfil their demands, that's how it works. i don't know why esports is making a drama out of this. it's just a simple business thing, stream on twitch and everything will be good.
i am curious though, if this is a standard for everyone, how come russians are streaming on own3d and other streaming sites? not sure how this is possible then.
Well I personally find a few mistakes in the base of all this:
1 - Blizz hasn't thought of this issue when they released the rule-book of 2014 WCS 2 - There's no warning system at all.. Just - bam - you're banned 3 - This is a scandal of big sizes - we're literally talking like more than 20, or maybe even more than 25% of viewership of WCS.. I really think that the French organizations are by far the most dedicated and most potent (ofc. except for the main ESL stream) 4 - I hope this gets solved quickly, cause the main problems the French guys have is that (I think at least, someone correct me for this) there isn't an official rule to what the "penalties" or what the "percentages" are if this rule is "omitted"..
I seriously think that this should probably result into a "final rule" for anyone else.. Though it would possibly be Blizz shooting themselves in the foot there, cause that will either encourage other nation's providers into making their own content, or discourage in participating the whole thing
And I also think that it's a bad policy to "monopolize" the streaming platform.. Perhaps there should be some Blizz/Twitch/ESL/Client-Platform-Candidate oficialized rules I think.. Otherwise it is really bad.. Now everyone can say that they have the right to represent their own side instead (and what is actually bad in this is that indeed - both sides have the rights to represent, cause there's no defined rules for this "scenario" to say the least)
I am no lawyer either, but usually in organization rules such as this - think that there should be pre-defined violations I think
I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them.
Ogaming guys just dont care they make business in France and have a very high credibility/reputation on their market so honestly, this doesnt matter much.
Plus this issue of french streams have been experienced in the past, this is not an issue that appeared yesterday, On the bright side making it pubic is forcing ESL to react so why not ?
Seeing the 2 posts of Kerri/Carmac, its pretty clear that the real problem here is money. OGaming/aAa/Millenium probably dont want to give ESL a percentage of their streaming benefits (could be that or they just dont agree on the percentage).
I think ESL probably wants to apply to the French Partnership the same rate than they apply to any other non ESL streamers (Mori, TakeTv, BasetradeTV etc. )
But you have to understand its just not the same production value. They just want to make a good show, please fans, attract fans, (yeah, attract, because the regular french guy who will buy sc2 and begin to follow stream etc. will do so through french streams and not through english ones). They must support about maybe 10/12 wage earning employee to do so. (not like Take, Basetrade etc.) So they just cannot share the stream revenues with ESL.
I dont know the details of contracts (exclusivity etc.) but the main goal of all this is promoting esports right ? I really wish they can sort it out. I am confident.
I can´t comment on Basetrade, etc. but the TaKeTV production crew includes about 10 people as well, so they are in a pretty similar situation and don´t have problems with ESL.
I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them.
Ogaming guys just dont care they make business in France and have a very high credibility/reputation on their market so honestly, this doesnt matter much.
Plus this issue of french streams have been experienced in the past, this is not an issue that appeared yesterday, On the bright side making it pubic is forcing ESL to react so why not ?
Seeing the 2 posts of Kerri/Carmac, its pretty clear that the real problem here is money. OGaming/aAa/Millenium probably dont want to give ESL a percentage of their streaming benefits (could be that or they just dont agree on the percentage).
I think ESL probably wants to apply to the French Partnership the same rate than they apply to any other non ESL streamers (Mori, TakeTv, BasetradeTV etc. )
But you have to understand its just not the same production value. They just want to make a good show, please fans, attract fans, (yeah, attract, because the regular french guy who will buy sc2 and begin to follow stream etc. will do so through french streams and not through english ones). They must support about maybe 10/12 wage earning employee to do so. (not like Take, Basetrade etc.) So they just cannot share the stream revenues with ESL.
I dont know the details of contracts (exclusivity etc.) but the main goal of all this is promoting esports right ? I really wish they can sort it out. I am confident.
I can´t comment on Basetrade, etc. but the TaKeTV production crew includes about 10 people as well, so they are in a pretty similar situation and don´t have problems with ESL.
They don't have any problems with ESL because they stream on Twitch.tv and they don't have to opportunity to have a better CPM. Maybe if they had the opportunity they would stream on Daily or SC2.TV.
I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them.
Ogaming guys just dont care they make business in France and have a very high credibility/reputation on their market so honestly, this doesnt matter much.
Plus this issue of french streams have been experienced in the past, this is not an issue that appeared yesterday, On the bright side making it pubic is forcing ESL to react so why not ?
Seeing the 2 posts of Kerri/Carmac, its pretty clear that the real problem here is money. OGaming/aAa/Millenium probably dont want to give ESL a percentage of their streaming benefits (could be that or they just dont agree on the percentage).
I think ESL probably wants to apply to the French Partnership the same rate than they apply to any other non ESL streamers (Mori, TakeTv, BasetradeTV etc. )
But you have to understand its just not the same production value. They just want to make a good show, please fans, attract fans, (yeah, attract, because the regular french guy who will buy sc2 and begin to follow stream etc. will do so through french streams and not through english ones). They must support about maybe 10/12 wage earning employee to do so. (not like Take, Basetrade etc.) So they just cannot share the stream revenues with ESL.
I dont know the details of contracts (exclusivity etc.) but the main goal of all this is promoting esports right ? I really wish they can sort it out. I am confident.
I can´t comment on Basetrade, etc. but the TaKeTV production crew includes about 10 people as well, so they are in a pretty similar situation and don´t have problems with ESL.
They don't have any problems with ESL because they stream on Twitch.tv and they don't have to opportunity to have a better CPM. Maybe if they had the opportunity they would stream on Daily or SC2.TV.
I am just saying, that his argument (OGaming´s team size being to big to share twitch add revenue with ESL) is´nt really there, considering the similar sized team of TaKeTV does exactly that.
On February 15 2014 10:06 VArsovskiSC wrote: 3 - This is a scandal of big sizes - we're literally talking like more than 20, or maybe even more than 25% of viewership of WCS.. I really think that the French organizations are by far the most dedicated and most potent (ofc. except for the main ESL stream)
I think you're vastly overrating the importance of french viewership, and especially the number of french viewers who would *only* watch a french stream. I for one could not be tortured nor bought into watching a french stream of anything. All other french SC2 viewers I know only watch english streams, except one who has no problem watching english streams when it's the only option.
Sure, there *are* french viewers who can't understand/enjoy english casts and who would miss out on WCS if there was no french stream. But I highly doubt their number is as critical as some would like to make us believe. English *is* pretty widespread over here.
I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them.
Ogaming guys just dont care they make business in France and have a very high credibility/reputation on their market so honestly, this doesnt matter much.
Plus this issue of french streams have been experienced in the past, this is not an issue that appeared yesterday, On the bright side making it pubic is forcing ESL to react so why not ?
Seeing the 2 posts of Kerri/Carmac, its pretty clear that the real problem here is money. OGaming/aAa/Millenium probably dont want to give ESL a percentage of their streaming benefits (could be that or they just dont agree on the percentage).
I think ESL probably wants to apply to the French Partnership the same rate than they apply to any other non ESL streamers (Mori, TakeTv, BasetradeTV etc. )
But you have to understand its just not the same production value. They just want to make a good show, please fans, attract fans, (yeah, attract, because the regular french guy who will buy sc2 and begin to follow stream etc. will do so through french streams and not through english ones). They must support about maybe 10/12 wage earning employee to do so. (not like Take, Basetrade etc.) So they just cannot share the stream revenues with ESL.
I dont know the details of contracts (exclusivity etc.) but the main goal of all this is promoting esports right ? I really wish they can sort it out. I am confident.
I can´t comment on Basetrade, etc. but the TaKeTV production crew includes about 10 people as well, so they are in a pretty similar situation and don´t have problems with ESL.
Ok thanks for the additional information. Maybe they have a different partnership with ESL though ? This kind of partnership could apply to the French Stream ? (maybe not I'm just assuming here)
I feel like there's a lot of things that need to be set clear, Kerri's post is a good thing imo because it will make things happen fast (Premier starts in 3 days...) but it has the really big drawback of being unclear / not enough specific.
I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them.
Ogaming guys just dont care they make business in France and have a very high credibility/reputation on their market so honestly, this doesnt matter much.
Plus this issue of french streams have been experienced in the past, this is not an issue that appeared yesterday, On the bright side making it pubic is forcing ESL to react so why not ?
Seeing the 2 posts of Kerri/Carmac, its pretty clear that the real problem here is money. OGaming/aAa/Millenium probably dont want to give ESL a percentage of their streaming benefits (could be that or they just dont agree on the percentage).
I think ESL probably wants to apply to the French Partnership the same rate than they apply to any other non ESL streamers (Mori, TakeTv, BasetradeTV etc. )
But you have to understand its just not the same production value. They just want to make a good show, please fans, attract fans, (yeah, attract, because the regular french guy who will buy sc2 and begin to follow stream etc. will do so through french streams and not through english ones). They must support about maybe 10/12 wage earning employee to do so. (not like Take, Basetrade etc.) So they just cannot share the stream revenues with ESL.
I dont know the details of contracts (exclusivity etc.) but the main goal of all this is promoting esports right ? I really wish they can sort it out. I am confident.
I can´t comment on Basetrade, etc. but the TaKeTV production crew includes about 10 people as well, so they are in a pretty similar situation and don´t have problems with ESL.
Ok thanks for the additional information. Maybe they have a different partnership with ESL though ? This kind of partnership could apply to the French Stream ? (maybe not I'm just assuming here)
I feel like there's a lot of things that need to be set clear, Kerri's post is a good thing imo because it will make things happen fast (Premier starts in 3 days...) but it has the really big drawback of being unclear / not enough specific.
I´m no insider, so I can´t provide information on how their deals are shaped, sorry.
If it's a twitch issue then you just have to deal with it. This is the agreement that was made by Blizzard, ESL, whoever and if you don't like it you can argue it with them. However, if twitch is the dedicated streaming partner for WCS, then even ESL has no control over it, and it's o'gaming or whoever that's being unreasonable.
Drama for drama's sake, as far as I can tell. /shrug.
On February 15 2014 08:11 iknowthetrue wrote: The problem is not twitch or dailymotion. The fact is that ESL claiming a percentage of income that generate the stream of wcs on millenium or ogaming. The fact is that ESL is too greedy. So in the end it's all a question of money.
Seriously? ESL is incurring all the costs of running the tournament, and someone else can just take their content and monetize it for free? Something about that seems wrong? I definitely think ESL should be compensated by the other streamers.
Hopefully a compromise of a solution and both English speaking viewers and French viewers are happy.
french want to use dailymotion to use bots to create an imaginary viewers audience and earn money from the ads. such things is impossible with twitch, that's why they are fighting and that's why they have 2k views on their streams even at 5 am. WCS should just ban them forever
More the merrier. While I think Daily motion is far weaker than twitch is atm, and in any circumstances I wouldn't watch Daily if there's twitch stream available, I'd still prolly would let them stream. The french stream audition is so small it wouldn't make any significant difference to add values, I think.
While I kinda understand decisions made my ESL because twitch is their sponsor at it seems, they should allow french streamers to cast under the circumstances they add "sponsored by twich" to their UI's. Might get a bit odd but still, more the merrier. Gotta say ESL have done pretty great job since WCS started and I hope you guys keep the same quality with streaming, commentating and casting!
On February 15 2014 11:02 Pontius Pirate wrote: You'd think it would be easier to just follow the rules and stream on Twitch, but apparently someone is throwing a hissy fit about their cpm...
If you follow those rules whatever they are (sharing x percent with ESL, streaming on Dailymotion rather than twitch, as it is we don't know the issue for sure) then you can't monetize the event and it just doesnt happen. So basically theres no rule to follow, theres no event.
On February 15 2014 11:02 Pontius Pirate wrote: You'd think it would be easier to just follow the rules and stream on Twitch, but apparently someone is throwing a hissy fit about their cpm...
If you follow those rules whatever they are (sharing x percent with ESL, streaming on Dailymotion rather than twitch, as it is we don't know the issue for sure) then you can't monetize the event and it just doesnt happen. So basically theres no rule to follow, theres no event.
well if they don't want to do it like all the other none-english streams, maybe they should try to get the exclusive rights for wcs europe 2015 then...
I don't see this ending well, WCS is partnered with Twitch, French TVs are partnered with Dailymotion (or at least they sponsored a lot of events organized by those TVs), and each party is loyal to their partner. ESL did not say that French can't have their streams, but the actual result is the same.
On February 15 2014 10:59 lopido wrote: french want to use dailymotion to use bots to create an imaginary viewers audience and earn money from the ads. such things is impossible with twitch, that's why they are fighting and that's why they have 2k views on their streams even at 5 am. WCS should just ban them forever
You are pointing something interesting. First, yes, french webtv use dailymotion because it's french and it pays more than Twitch. Secondly, we (french viewers) are now forced to cut streams because they put them on their homepages, automatically started even if they are muted, that creates a fake audience. Some would even say it is necessary for them to keep dailymotion because what they (more or less) couldnt live without it.
One among ogaming/aaa/mill even said few months ago that the homepage stream would be there till the end of a tournament, and should disappear later, which it didnt, of course because a rival streaming website was doing this homepage abuse. So they decided to keep it that way.
To be honest, i'm not that interested in issue happening right now because it will probably be fixed. I'm more worried about how could 3 rivals TV work together to stream 1 unique event as there will not be 3 french streams for WCS.
This seems to be an issue between the French partners and Blizzard, not with ESL. It seems unreasonable for ESL to give the French preferential treatment compared to their other "other language" partners just so they can compete against their own product.
TaKe has recently given an interview in German giving some details about Twitch and WCS. He said that only the English (ESL) production gets money from Blizzard to improve their production, all other streams only get their Twitch ad revenue, which doesn't really cover the cost. He did not mention anything about having to give a share of that to ESL.
If I remember correctly (although I am not sure), he said (not in that interview) that the WCS stuff was only good for self promotion, but it isn't worth it financially. Temporarily, the German WCS was covered by someone else, maybe for that reason.
He also said that Dailymotion pays 5 Euro (or was it $?) CPM. Twitch is a fraction of that. But he also said that Twitch is much better at showcasing streams.
It's Blizzard's call whether they want their league covered in other languages and want to pay for it. But if they pay extra (or miss some terms of their Twitch sponsorship) for the French stream, why not give the German stream extra money, or the Russian stream? Sure, the French probably have the best production and higher cost involved with it, but they can't just expect Blizzard to pay the bills without having a deal with them in the first place.
If Blizzard does not decide to support Non-English streams financially, they will not be able to up their production and some of them will probably drop out in the long run.
On February 15 2014 11:02 Pontius Pirate wrote: You'd think it would be easier to just follow the rules and stream on Twitch, but apparently someone is throwing a hissy fit about their cpm...
If you follow those rules whatever they are (sharing x percent with ESL, streaming on Dailymotion rather than twitch, as it is we don't know the issue for sure) then you can't monetize the event and it just doesnt happen. So basically theres no rule to follow, theres no event.
well if they don't want to do it like all the other none-english streams, maybe they should try to get the exclusive rights for wcs europe 2015 then...
Lol nice logic. Yet in other fields there's no such thing as "European Exclusivity" Take Soccer : Champion's league
ONE french society (channel) has bought the right to broadcast it, ONE german society... etc.
In sc2's case it is really different ONE european society receives money to organize and broadcast it in english.
On February 15 2014 11:41 SinCitta wrote: This seems to be an issue between the French partners and Blizzard, not with ESL. It seems unreasonable for ESL to give the French preferential treatment compared to their other "other language" partners just so they can compete against their own product.
TaKe has recently given an interview in German giving some details about Twitch and WCS. He said that only the English (ESL) production gets money from Blizzard to improve their production, all other streams only get their Twitch ad revenue, which doesn't really cover the cost. He did not mention anything about having to give a share of that to ESL.
If I remember correctly (although I am not sure), he said (not in that interview) that the WCS stuff was only good for self promotion, but it isn't worth it financially. Temporarily, the German WCS was covered by someone else, maybe for that reason.
He also said that Dailymotion pays 5 Euro (or was it $?) CPM. Twitch is a fraction of that. But he also said that Twitch is much better at showcasing streams.
It's Blizzard's call whether they want their league covered in other languages and want to pay for it. But if they pay extra (or miss some terms of their Twitch sponsorship) for the French stream, why not give the German stream extra money, or the Russian stream? Sure, the French probably have the best production and higher cost involved with it, but they can't just expect Blizzard to pay the bills without having a deal with them in the first place.
If Blizzard does not decide to support Non-English streams financially, they will not be able to up their production and some of them will probably drop out in the long run.
Really good points / insight.
He said that only the English (ESL) production gets money from Blizzard to improve their production
Hmmm... the main issue here is it's very hard to tell if the money flux Blizzard --> ESL is exclusively to subcontract the task of organizing a tournament OR if part of that money is to help broadcasting it.
Then yeah, in that last case, Blizzard should fund Take and French TVs or any "local" TV that puts a good effort on production value.
On February 15 2014 11:45 mikumegurine wrote: what happened in previous seasons? WCS and ESL french on Dailymotion without any problems?
Last year ESL (and not Blizzard) gave the exclusive rights to aAa on Twitch without asking to the other websites. The average viewer count was something like 200-300 viewers the good days (it would have been at least 6-7000 on O'Gaming or Millenium).
Fun fact : ESL France's boss is the creator of aAa.
So either the problem is they want to use DailyMotion to broadcast a tournament Twitch h as the rights too or they don't want to pay ESL anything even though they have the rights to broadcast WCS Europe.
How are Twitch, ESL, Blizzard looked at in the wrong here at all, I do not understand. This is how things work in the real world. Broadcast rights mean something. You can't just do what you want because you feel like it. O'Gaming/Millenium/aAa need to either accept the terms or not broadcast, simple as that. Obviously there are negotiations where they need to decide if its worth it or not.
On February 15 2014 11:10 Battery wrote: More the merrier. While I think Daily motion is far weaker than twitch is atm, and in any circumstances I wouldn't watch Daily if there's twitch stream available, I'd still prolly would let them stream. The french stream audition is so small it wouldn't make any significant difference to add values, I think.
While I kinda understand decisions made my ESL because twitch is their sponsor at it seems, they should allow french streamers to cast under the circumstances they add "sponsored by twich" to their UI's. Might get a bit odd but still, more the merrier. Gotta say ESL have done pretty great job since WCS started and I hope you guys keep the same quality with streaming, commentating and casting!
A little trick is DailyMotion seems to have a way better service status than Twitch in Europe atm, having them hurts no one, but yeah, I don't see why ESL can't require them to stream on Twitch as well.
On February 15 2014 10:06 VArsovskiSC wrote: 3 - This is a scandal of big sizes - we're literally talking like more than 20, or maybe even more than 25% of viewership of WCS.. I really think that the French organizations are by far the most dedicated and most potent (ofc. except for the main ESL stream)
I think you're vastly overrating the importance of french viewership, and especially the number of french viewers who would *only* watch a french stream. I for one could not be tortured nor bought into watching a french stream of anything. All other french SC2 viewers I know only watch english streams, except one who has no problem watching english streams when it's the only option.
Sure, there *are* french viewers who can't understand/enjoy english casts and who would miss out on WCS if there was no french stream. But I highly doubt their number is as critical as some would like to make us believe. English *is* pretty widespread over here.
Only about a third of French people can speak English. But among French video game enthusiasts between the ages of, say, 13 and 30, the percentage is probably far, far higher.
I've watched a lot of European video game streams and I don't think I've ever seen a European in any of them who could not speak English.
I am quite amazed by people's commentaries... For MilleniumTV or O'GamingTV broadcasting the WCS is not something they just do for fun : they have to pay the salaries of the people working for them. I don't know if english speaking people have ever watched what they do but it is quite high quality shows : they have invested in studios and they have people working for them full time.
The question between Dailymotion and Twitch is quite central because Dailymotion is at the moment much more profitable for these channels than Twitch : so I think everybody can understand they insist so much in being allowed to stream WCS on Dailymotion. Let say it like that : if they stream on Twitch it will cost them money while doing it on Dailymotion they won't lose money. aAa team has for exemple broadcasted WCS last year but the casters were doing it for free... I know that SC2 is a passion and people involved shouldn't try to make money out of it but if you want high quality shows as MilleniumTV and O'GamingTV are making you have to make a choice...
So shame on you ESL and shame on you Blizzard ! Riot and Valve have no problem with channels broadcasting their games on the platform they want... I think Blizzard should do the same if they want to keep SC2 alive !!!
The French organizations such as Ogaming and Millennium prefer to use dailymotion for several reasons: - It is a French website and a close partner for a long time. - It has a better rentability than Twitch. Ogaming released a video some time ago where they explained why they changed a lot the streaming website they used. They tried pretty much everything from Twitch to Dailymotion and they kept using Dailymotion because it was the only website that could provide them with the solid income they need to keep on working.
Is the goal of Blizzard&Twitch to make the tournament producers of M-House, NationWars, Ironsquids poorer? Is not the goal of streaming making some organizations richer to drive eSports into a better and better thing?
Why does ESL want to block O'Gaming TV and Millenium? Do they want to have the monopoly in Europe? Are they afraid of these two good producers?
ESL, your problem is not money. Your problem is that WCS are dying in France. You are not blocking only casters. Pomf&Thud, Anoss, Moman, Llewellys and YoGo created the French scene with this whole content. They are not only casters to us, French community: they are the ones who made us love this game.
By fighting against them, you are not respectful to their work and show that you do not understand anything to our scene. Check your figures and you will tell Blizzard why France has become to one of the best community to one of the poorer.
On February 15 2014 17:16 PrivateGG wrote: The French organizations such as Ogaming and Millennium prefer to use dailymotion for several reasons: - It is a French website and a close partner for a long time. - It has a better rentability than Twitch. Ogaming released a video some time ago where they explained why they changed a lot the streaming website they used. They tried pretty much everything from Twitch to Dailymotion and they kept using Dailymotion because it was the only website that could provide them with the solid income they need to keep on working.
im sure its not esl's decision since blizzard partnered with twitch at the beginning of the year for WCS.
On February 15 2014 06:57 Norz wrote: This is typical french to refuse to adapt to english though. I do agree they kinda have a point, but it's so typical of them, really annoys me.
Also dailymotion is really, REALLY terrible.
But ... but ... it's just that these organizations are often sponsored by Dailymotion, so they are in a difficult position where they can't please both sides ! No need to French bashing
The Drama they are creating here is just off the charts, they are trying to get exposure through some said-to-be"racistic" moves by ESL (at least thats how it looks to me). IMO that is something that shouldnt be tolerated by anyone and if they cant live with streaming through the WCS Partners Service then they shouldnt be allowed to stream it, just like it is right now! You cant expect to get Money from the WCS while not even promoting their sponsors.
As a french that watch the english stream on twitch, I can say that twitch often lags when the viewers counts is varying a lot Which is seriously annoying. An issue i don't have with dailymotion. But i don't like french casters.
What is the problem with having some competitions between the stream providers ? I thought people liked competition on TL
I dont really understand what is the problem here. It is quite known that everything for wcs need to be streamed on Twitch. Dont know why the french guys act like they didnt know that before. And i why the hell they are saying that ESL forbidden there stream. Thats simply a lie, but okay....
No one has interest in having a Twitch's monopoly even if they pay ESL. The shows supported by Dailymotion are really good and France has developed a juge community thanks to it. When they stream es WCS Finals season 3, they nearly reached 10k French-speaking viewers. Who did better?
So Roccat pays ESL too as a sponsor: next step is to make all the players play with the ESL Stuff. Sponsoring is here to get exposure and not to get monopoly. If ESL does not enable to deal without any monopoly and so without respecting the market laws, maybe they are not the good ones.
I repeat that: ESL is killing the French scene. The next investments will be on others games...
Twitch brought the broadcast rights from Blizzard and ESL has probably no saying. Blame Twitch and maybe Blizzard, ESL has probably choice.
That said I would probably like a English or German stream on Dailymotion, as it can't get much worse than Twitch. Although with the Proxy script Twitch ran fine and they seem to finally improve (after years) their reliability in Europe.
I think French streams are really poor in quality, casters are really clueless about the game. So I don't really mind they got cockblocked. Learn English FFS.
On February 15 2014 20:38 Faust852 wrote: I think French streams are really poor in quality, casters are really clueless about the game. So I don't really mind they got cockblocked. Learn English FFS.
But what would be the purpose of having a French stream in english?
Frankly, I don't get why for so many people the Twitch monopoly is not a real problem : french esport has developed thanks to MilleniumTV and O'GamingTV which made big investments to be able to propose high quality streamings on their channels. And Dailymotion has helped them a lot : if they had used Twitch it is highly probable that these Web TVs would have disappeared by now. O'Gaming was using Twitch in the beginning but they switched rapidly to Dailymotion because Twitch was not profitable enough. The fact that Twitch and Blizzard are partners shouldn't lead to a monopoly of the WCS broadcasting : it is actually pretty bad for the Starcraft II scene. And the fact that ESL is controlling all the WCS broadcasts in Europe is also really bad... A larger diversity in the broadcast channels would help in my opinion the development of Starcraft II esport. Have you seen Riot or Valve do the same ? Not at all... And it is also one of the reasons why their games get so much exposure.
So please : help the Starcraft II french scene and stop criticizing ! In the end, if it works, it will be better for everybody.
On February 15 2014 20:38 Faust852 wrote: I think French streams are really poor in quality, casters are really clueless about the game. So I don't really mind they got cockblocked. Learn English FFS.
But what would be the purpose of having a French stream in english?
Imho there is no need of a french stream. At least with the current caster pool. Anyway, that's just my opinion, I don't really care about the french scene anymore.
On February 15 2014 20:07 Punchline! wrote: No one has interest in having a Twitch's monopoly even if they pay ESL. The shows supported by Dailymotion are really good and France has developed a juge community thanks to it. When they stream es WCS Finals season 3, they nearly reached 10k French-speaking viewers. Who did better?
So Roccat pays ESL too as a sponsor: next step is to make all the players play with the ESL Stuff. Sponsoring is here to get exposure and not to get monopoly. If ESL does not enable to deal without any monopoly and so without respecting the market laws, maybe they are not the good ones.
I repeat that: ESL is killing the French scene. The next investments will be on others games...
We still don't know all the details so saying ESL is killing the French scene is over the top. All we have right now is a he-said-she-said situation. We don't really have any proof of anything. The French companies blame ESL, but ESL says it is about twitch.tv. We haven't seen the contracts or whatever to know what exactly the problem is.
If it is a twitch issue though, well that's how business often works. Exclusive releases on consoles for example, where Microsoft or Sony pay the developers so that the developers don't release the game on other consoles. If twitch paid Blizzard so that all WCS events are streamed on twitch then so be it.
I'm not saying I'm in favour of this system, but this is how the world works.
Dailymotion could of put in a bid to get wcs eu (instead of twitch), for all I know maybe they did. Twitch got the contract though, so it has to be streamed on twitch. That's how these things work. If Dailymotion do not like it then they need to put a bigger bid in next year.
I see a lot of French people defending Ogaming here. Unless there was an error in translation, it looks to me like Ogaming came here and blatantly lied about their dealings with ESL. If anything, ESL are the organisation that should be upset with this situation.
The "argument" here seems to be that a "monopoly of twitch" is hurting the french scene, because they want to stream on dailymotion to cover their costs (better). Well, Blizzard decided to partner with twitch and this is and remains a fact (right now), no matter how often you say it shouldn't be. It seems naive to me, arguing that they have to stream WCS to be able to exist/pay their staff. They seem to not have any rights or contracts with Blizzard/Twitch/ESL on streaming the WCS in the first place. Considering they really have to get the revenue from streaming WCS to stay alive, this is quite unprofessional to say at least because you have absolutely no guarantees and you are based on "asking nicely to be allowed/the altruism of the companys who acquired the rights, in this case ESL. So what should MilleniumTV and O'GamingTV do? Maybe try to get an equal status as a WCS partner like the ESL in the future, because they seem to have (like they say) a big audience and good produced shows and as their inhouse tournament showed, the capability to host offline events. But coming here accusing the companys that behave according to their contracts with litte to no real arguments seems to be a litte counterproductive.
It feels like SC2 was the beta-test for this whole "ESPORTS" craze and never really escaped from it. It pioneered the streams, tournaments and all this jazz we see nowadays (wasnt the first, but its where the "boom" happened) but seems to suffer from a severe lack of organisation because it had to build its scene from scratch and is all over the place because of it. Other games scenes / devs seem to have taken what SC2's done / is doing, cleaned it up and run with it.
Twitch is a partner of WCS, so it isn't surprising that WCS streams outside of Twitch are not allowed... Complains should've been voiced when that partnership has been announced and to the parties involved in this decision. Complains now are a little bit late, and ESL is certainly not the right organization to complain to.
On February 15 2014 21:48 Grovbolle wrote: Basically the french community/sites saying: "We want free content we can monetize"
That and probably, what I wrote in other thread, that they are bound by contract with DM. They've been in negotiations with ESL up to the last moment, negotiations went sour, so they try sending pitchfork mob at ESL using, what it seems to be, a blatant lie and ask people to spread it even further.
On February 15 2014 21:48 Grovbolle wrote: Basically the french community/sites saying: "We want free content we can monetize"
Seriously reading this makes me just sick : can't you get that O'Gaming TV and Millenium TV are just barely surviving ? As I said before, if they had been using Twitch for their broadcasts, they would have just disappeared ! Maintaining a WebTV costs money : you have to pay the people who are dedicating their time for that. So to survive you need at least to cover your costs. O'Gaming and Millenium both have studios and pro people working for them. This costs a lot but they have been able to do it thanks to Dailymotion which has been a great support.
I get the argument that Blizzard and Twitch signed an agreement. But the question is : do you want to have the largest audience possible and the best shows possible or you prefer to maintain a monopoly ? The french WebTVs are just saying that if they are forced to use Twitch they won't do it because it wouldn't allow them to cover their costs. aAaTV used to run the french WCS stream but they weren't paid for that : people were dedicating their free time to make it happen. Now they are just saying we won't do it anymore for free. With Riot or Valve they don't have these kind of troubles and they have every week at least 10'000 people watching LCS on their channels. Now it is Blizzard's choice : either you try to understand this or you just lose the french speaking community...
I just want to remind you that the only time Millenium and O'Gaming were allowed to run a Dailymotion stream for the WCS 9000 french people were watching the show : is it something you want to see happen again or you think SC2 is doing so well at the moment that you just don't care ?
On February 15 2014 21:48 Grovbolle wrote: Basically the french community/sites saying: "We want free content we can monetize"
Seriously reading this makes me just sick : can't you get that O'Gaming TV and Millenium TV are just barely surviving ? As I said before, if they had been using Twitch for their broadcasts, they would have just disappeared ! Maintaining a WebTV costs money : you have to pay the people who are dedicating their time for that. So to survive you need at least to cover your costs. O'Gaming and Millenium both have studios and pro people working for them. This costs a lot but they have been able to do it thanks to Dailymotion which has been a great support.
I get the argument that Blizzard and Twitch signed an agreement. But the question is : do you want to have the largest audience possible and the best shows possible or you prefer to maintain a monopoly ? The french WebTVs are just saying that if they are forced to use Twitch they won't do it because it wouldn't allow them to cover their costs. aAaTV used to run the french WCS stream but they weren't paid for that : people were dedicating their free time to make it happen. Now they are just saying we won't do it anymore for free. With Riot or Valve they don't have these kind of troubles and they have every week at least 10'000 people watching LCS on their channels. Now it is Blizzard's choice : either you try to understand this or you just lose the french speaking community...
I just want to remind you that the only time Millenium and O'Gaming were allowed to run a Dailymotion stream for the WCS 9000 french people were watching the show : is it something you want to see happen again or you think SC2 is doing so well at the moment that you just don't care ?
Whatever you or I want now does not matter, because the partnership is signed. One can debate whether it is reasonable to continue it in the next year, but for now the partnership is fixed. Personally, for me it depends on what Twitch is offering, I wouldn't say that a partnership is bad per se.
Also please don't complain about O'GamingTV's and MilleniumTV'S financial situation. Everybody is in the same boat and complaining just makes them look like whiny bitches which I am sure they are not.
On February 15 2014 21:48 Grovbolle wrote: Basically the french community/sites saying: "We want free content we can monetize"
Seriously reading this makes me just sick : can't you get that O'Gaming TV and Millenium TV are just barely surviving ? As I said before, if they had been using Twitch for their broadcasts, they would have just disappeared ! Maintaining a WebTV costs money : you have to pay the people who are dedicating their time for that. So to survive you need at least to cover your costs. O'Gaming and Millenium both have studios and pro people working for them. This costs a lot but they have been able to do it thanks to Dailymotion which has been a great support.
I get the argument that Blizzard and Twitch signed an agreement. But the question is : do you want to have the largest audience possible and the best shows possible or you prefer to maintain a monopoly ? The french WebTVs are just saying that if they are forced to use Twitch they won't do it because it wouldn't allow them to cover their costs. aAaTV used to run the french WCS stream but they weren't paid for that : people were dedicating their free time to make it happen. Now they are just saying we won't do it anymore for free. With Riot or Valve they don't have these kind of troubles and they have every week at least 10'000 people watching LCS on their channels. Now it is Blizzard's choice : either you try to understand this or you just lose the french speaking community...
I just want to remind you that the only time Millenium and O'Gaming were allowed to run a Dailymotion stream for the WCS 9000 french people were watching the show : is it something you want to see happen again or you think SC2 is doing so well at the moment that you just don't care ?
Ogaming and Mill barely surviving ? Who are you kidding lol. Millinium is the biggest e-sport based website in France, and the 2nd one after TL regarding SC2. They earn MUCH more money with ads than with the stream. Ogaming is also so diversified SC2 is just one of the branch of a huge tree. Ogaming is just a fucking greedy company that privilege money over quality. No wonder why there are tons of "P&T" casted games with thousands of view on Youtube, these casts being really poorly made.
If they (O'Gaming TV and Millenium TV) are in such a bad financial situation, maybe they should consider to switch over to LoL? More viewers = more money. Because if they are so professional as you say they are it's not making any sense to me to base their whole business model into being allowed to stream some content (in this case WCS) without having any rights/contracts on it. That's like having one client but you never know if you will get an assignment or not because the client has other companies (in the same field of business) working for him as well. Don't you see that this is just bad business? Or looking at it in another way, they were doing it for free (as a hobby) and then made a business out of it without having any clue if it could work.
On February 15 2014 23:00 rnst wrote: If they (O'Gaming TV and Millenium TV) are in such a bad financial situation, maybe they should consider to switch over to LoL? More viewers = more money. Because if they are so professional as you say they are it's not making any sense to me to base their whole business model into being allowed to stream some content (in this case WCS) without having any rights/contracts on it. That's like having one client but you never know if you will get an assignment or not because the client has other companies (in the same field of business) working for him as well. Don't you see that this is just bad business? Or looking at it in another way, they were doing it for free (as a hobby) and then made a business out of it without having any clue if it could work.
They are not in bad financial situation, and they DO stream LoL, DotA2, etc..
On February 15 2014 23:00 rnst wrote: @cortesmaltose
If they (O'Gaming TV and Millenium TV) are in such a bad financial situation, maybe they should consider to switch over to LoL? More viewers = more money. Because if they are so professional as you say they are it's not making any sense to me to base their whole business model into being allowed to stream some content (in this case WCS) without having any rights/contracts on it. That's like having one client but you never know if you will get an assignment or not because the client has other companies (in the same field of business) working for him as well. Don't you see that this is just bad business? Or looking at it in another way, they were doing it for free (as a hobby) and then made a business out of it without having any clue if it could work.
Millenium cast LCS Europe and NA. O'GamingTV cast OGN/LCS Europe and sometimes LCS NA.
Well, then they can't be in such a bad situation and should just consider getting them in a better position (contract wise) for the next WCS. Which is _not_ trying to slander the ESL and all the others involved just days before Premier starts.
On February 15 2014 22:56 Faust852 wrote: Ogaming and Mill barely surviving ? Who are you kidding lol. Millinium is the biggest e-sport based website in France, and the 2nd one after TL regarding SC2. They earn MUCH more money with ads than with the stream. Ogaming is also so diversified SC2 is just one of the branch of a huge tree. Ogaming is just a fucking greedy company that privilege money over quality. No wonder why there are tons of "P&T" casted games with thousands of view on Youtube, these casts being really poorly made.
You should be ashamed of trying to kill this useless drama-mongering with your facts. After all, the future of the *entire* french community and the survival of all SC2-related french companies is in the balance. They should not have to follow the same rules as everyone else.
Not letting them do what they want would be like drowning kittens in a pool of their own blood.
Blizzard pays ESL to organize EU imposes WCS but I repeat only ESL stream on twitch because blizzard has a contract with only twitch . Ogaming Millenium and can stream wcs on dailymotion if they want . But whether on stream twitch or dailymotion , Ogaming and Millennium must have the permission of ESL . And that is the problem. Ogaming and Millenium want stream on dailymotion because they lose money on using twitch more and France twich lag to death. As neither blizzard nor imposes no twitch twitch except for the stream on ESL . Knowing that Ogaming and Millenium lose money on twitch and twitch lag in France , knowing that all this does ultimately that hurt the sc2 scene , why impose ESL seen twitch despite all this? Ask yourself this question . ESL says it does not prevent Ogamin and millenium stream of wcs , but all the same back that prevent stream . And once or twitch or blizzard requires ESL prevent Ogamin and millenium of stream on dailymotion , only ESL decided that.
"Should the tournament organizer wish to broadcast the tournament online, our preferred streaming partner is Twitch; however, you are free to stream on whichever online platform you like;"
So, where is the problem if French caster stream on Dailymotion ?
"Should the tournament organizer wish to broadcast the tournament online, our preferred streaming partner is Twitch; however, you are free to stream on whichever online platform you like;"
So, where is the problem if French caster stream on Dailymotion ?
according to kerri: Access to the WCS is forbidden to French organizations streaming on twitch isn't the problem (from reddit) they've been trying to stream WCS for 9 months
according to Carmac: OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch Obtaining broadcasting rights for WCS Europe was not something that we made difficult
Kerri is the one that came forward to expose this business issue to the community eye, they have to expose proof for their accusation towards ESL forbidding french organizations otherwise they'll lose complete credibility
both parties need to come forward and explain the reason a french WCS is not happening, so far, none have provided anything bar drama
There is something that people outside of France don't realise : With most of the biggest french internet providers (mainly Orange and Free) it's almost impossible to watch streams on Twitch correctly. It's mainly due to the policy of those providers regardin google ads, as far as i know.
That's why some content on DailyMotion remains important for french SC2 lovers.
On February 16 2014 01:57 Neonico wrote: There is something that people outside of France don't realise : With most of the biggest french internet providers (mainly Orange and Free) it's almost impossible to watch streams on Twitch correctly. It's mainly due to the policy of those providers regardin google ads, as far as i know.
Watching streams on Twitch has been almost impossible for the same reason it was crap basically anywhere in Europe. Recently it's been a *lot* better (as in currently IEM in Source without a single problem, same with any other stream/twitch video/whatever I tried the past few weeks).
There are peering issues with Google/YouTube (maybe also resolved? It seems better lately), but Twitch has only been as crappy in France as in the rest of Europe (granted it lasted a loooooooooong time). But for now, at last, no more need for a VPN.
So most of what I'm seeing here is the French community pitchforking on behalf on the French organisations when their intial statements seem dubious at best =/
On February 16 2014 03:45 Zealously wrote: So most of what I'm seeing here is the French community pitchforking on behalf on the French organisations when their intial statements seem dubious at best =/
To me this seems really easy: Twitch.tv has partnered with WCS, just like ESL. I think it is completely normal if you have the exclusive rights to broadcast WCS that other videostreaming sources are not allowed to do so. Can't really get what the fuss is all about...
The offer to cast on Twitch.tv was made by ESL from the beginning of the WCS 2013, approximatively 9 months ago.
In 2013 Team aAa was allowed to Stream on Twitch during the 1st and 2nd WCS seasons, and tried to make it work with a minimalist production setup. The experience was far from being successful regarding community reach and financial viability. Team aAa droped the idea for Season 3, with fair reasons.
Thoses concerns were the starting point of our discussions. The various actors (ESL and the French Structures) agreed the Twitch option was not viable for a french Community Streaming Project, in October 2013.
In order to provide to an enlarged community with the highest production value, and give the best WCS experience to Starcraft 2 fans, we need to take into account faithful local actions and particularities. Our track record with international events (NASL's WCS 2013 S3 finals & RedBull BG) generated great feedbacks from our partners and French & worldwide communities.
No agreement has been found with ESL since, despite our will to negociate and find a positive solution for every actor involved. However we had to renounce casting the first three WCS seasons, due to the latency in those ongoing discussions. We cannot comply with WCS 2014 following the same patern, which is why we call for community support.
We have good faith community support can help reach this goal, and foster the passion we are all fighting for.
We are eager to find a solution and pursue our common initial goal to keep strenghening the international Sc2 dynamics,
Alexandre 'Pomf' Noci, Ogaming Chairman and CEO & Rémy "Llewellys" Chanson Director Millenium TV / Millenium Esport
On February 16 2014 03:54 Negius wrote: To me this seems really easy: Twitch.tv has partnered with WCS, just like ESL. I think it is completely normal if you have the exclusive rights to broadcast WCS that other videostreaming sources are not allowed to do so. Can't really get what the fuss is all about...
the thing is we're not even entirely sure it's about twitch/dailymotion since the initial statement doesn't describe the issue and just call for pitchfork on behalf of esl forbidding french from streaming (which according to carmack isn't true, and this is most likely true but we haven't heard from him either to tell us what the real issue is) and then kerri just gone mute (probably and preferably out of shame)
not helping the french community's image not solving the issue at all hell, not even disclosing the real issue
we know nothing apart from french organization being terrible at international PR, which we've always knew, it's just another confirmation
[EDIT]oh, finally an answer, and still not clear on what is the real issue
On February 16 2014 04:13 OGamingTV wrote: Thoses concerns were the starting point of our discussions. The various actors (ESL and the French Structures) agreed the Twitch option was not viable for a french Community Streaming Project, in October 2013.
No agreement has been found with ESL since, despite our will to negociate and find a positive solution for every actor involved. However we had to renounce casting the first three WCS seasons, due to the latency in those ongoing discussions. We cannot comply with WCS 2014 following the same patern, which is why we call for community support.
can you please say the reason you "call for our support" is that you refuse to stream on twitch and esl refuse to let you stream on DM (probably due to twitch sponsoring) and you want us to pressure esl into violating their agreement with twitch?
On February 16 2014 04:13 OGamingTV wrote: The offer to cast on Twitch.tv was made by ESL from the beginning of the WCS 2013, approximatively 9 months ago.
In 2013 Team aAa was allowed to Stream on Twitch during the 1st and 2nd WCS seasons, and tried to make it work with a minimalist production setup. The experience was far from being successful regarding community reach and financial viability. Team aAa droped the idea for Season 3, with fair reasons.
Thoses concerns were the starting point of our discussions. The various actors (ESL and the French Structures) agreed the Twitch option was not viable for a french Community Streaming Project, in October 2013.
In order to provide to an enlarged community with the highest production value, and give the best WCS experience to Starcraft 2 fans, we need to take into account faithful local actions and particularities. Our track record with international events (NASL's WCS 2013 S3 finals & RedBull BG) generated great feedbacks from our partners and French & worldwide communities.
No agreement has been found with ESL since, despite our will to negociate and find a positive solution for every actor involved. However we had to renounce casting the first three WCS seasons, due to the latency in those ongoing discussions. We cannot comply with WCS 2014 following the same patern, which is why we call for community support.
We have good faith community support can help reach this goal, and foster the passion we are all fighting for.
We are eager to find a solution and pursue our common initial goal to keep strenghening the international Sc2 dynamics,
Alexandre 'Pomf' Noci, Ogaming Chairman and CEO & Rémy "Llewellys" Chanson Director Millenium TV / Millenium Esport
Obviously, I am not nearly as well informed in this matter as the people involved, but here are my two remarks:
1. ESL is not alone on WCS EU. Even if there is nothing against you streaming outside of Twitch.tv, Twitch.tv might not want to see that and enforce that all streams happen on Twitch exclusively.
2. Are you persistant on streaming on Dailymotion? If yes, then it's not surprising that no compromise can be found. Even though I understand your standpoint of wanting to stream on Dailymotion, I can also understand of Twitch enforcing that all streams are supposed to happen on their plattform.
I really do hope that Dailymotion can grow and develop to be a solid competitor to Twitch. However approaching Twitch events and throwing a tantrum if they cannot be streamed on Dailymotion does not seem very adult like to me...
On February 16 2014 04:13 OGamingTV wrote: The offer to cast on Twitch.tv was made by ESL from the beginning of the WCS 2013, approximatively 9 months ago.
In 2013 Team aAa was allowed to Stream on Twitch during the 1st and 2nd WCS seasons, and tried to make it work with a minimalist production setup. The experience was far from being successful regarding community reach and financial viability. Team aAa droped the idea for Season 3, with fair reasons.
Thoses concerns were the starting point of our discussions. The various actors (ESL and the French Structures) agreed the Twitch option was not viable for a french Community Streaming Project, in October 2013.
In order to provide to an enlarged community with the highest production value, and give the best WCS experience to Starcraft 2 fans, we need to take into account faithful local actions and particularities. Our track record with international events (NASL's WCS 2013 S3 finals & RedBull BG) generated great feedbacks from our partners and French & worldwide communities.
No agreement has been found with ESL since, despite our will to negociate and find a positive solution for every actor involved. However we had to renounce casting the first three WCS seasons, due to the latency in those ongoing discussions. We cannot comply with WCS 2014 following the same patern, which is why we call for community support.
We have good faith community support can help reach this goal, and foster the passion we are all fighting for.
We are eager to find a solution and pursue our common initial goal to keep strenghening the international Sc2 dynamics,
Alexandre 'Pomf' Noci, Ogaming Chairman and CEO & Rémy "Llewellys" Chanson Director Millenium TV / Millenium Esport
You're asking for support from the community but I still don't understand what the problem is. What is holding up the negotiations? Is it the twitch vs dailymotion issue? Or is there some other problem?
If it is that twitch don't won't you using dailymotion and have a contractual agreement with Blizzard (or ESL or whoever it would be) about WCS EU then I fully understand twitch enforcing what they are entitled to. It sucks for the French scene but I don't know what the community can do.
The only solution to this (hypothetical) twitch deal-breaker would be dailymotion (or someone on their behalf) paying for the rights to stream the WCS EU. Possibly by striking a deal with twitch, or by trying to negotiate with twitch and Blizzard (or ESL or whoever it would be) so that twitch pays less to Blizzard but don't have exclusive rights in France.
Twitch do not remunerate enough french streamers. Twitch is not very involved in french market, they do not have a lot of contracts with french advertisers. Sometimes there is no add to send, then no money for the streamer.
Also, all french companies which have a webtv Eclypsia, Millenium, aAa, O'Gaming, are based on the income of streaming on Dailymotion. They are employing professionnal streamers and this would not be possible if they were forced to stream on Twitch. Streaming WCS cost a lot because these companies must pay streamers for all the time spent to cast. But this is not cost effective, they would not make any profit. It is more profitable to stream on Dailymotion an other game.
This is really stupid. There is no problem for LCS, LCS are streamed by aAa O'Gaming Eclypsia and Millenium on Dailymotion. And LCS are also produced by ESL.
On February 16 2014 05:30 GL999et1000 wrote: Twitch do not remunerate enough french streamers. Twitch is not very involved in french market, they do not have a lot of contracts with french advertisers. Sometimes there is no add to send, then no money for the streamer.
Also, all french companies which have a webtv Eclypsia, Millenium, aAa, O'Gaming, are based on the income of streaming on Dailymotion. They are employing professionnal streamers and this would not be possible if they were forced to stream on Twitch. Streaming WCS cost a lot because these companies must pay streamers for all the time spent to cast. But this is not cost effective, they would not make any profit. It is more profitable to stream on Dailymotion an other game.
This is really stupid. There is no problem for LCS, LCS are streamed by aAa O'Gaming Eclypsia and Millenium on Dailymotion. And LCS are also produced by ESL.
Stop blaming ESL. ESL is not the problem, as you said they allow streaming on Dailymotion in other events they produce. Twitch is an official partner of WCS and I imagine them enforcing the rules.
Riot has not made the same mistake as blizzard giving exclusivity to just twitch. Blizzard wanted to supplement his end of month selling her ass twitch, now he pays.
On February 16 2014 04:13 OGamingTV wrote: The offer to cast on Twitch.tv was made by ESL from the beginning of the WCS 2013, approximatively 9 months ago.
In 2013 Team aAa was allowed to Stream on Twitch during the 1st and 2nd WCS seasons, and tried to make it work with a minimalist production setup. The experience was far from being successful regarding community reach and financial viability. Team aAa droped the idea for Season 3, with fair reasons.
Thoses concerns were the starting point of our discussions. The various actors (ESL and the French Structures) agreed the Twitch option was not viable for a french Community Streaming Project, in October 2013.
In order to provide to an enlarged community with the highest production value, and give the best WCS experience to Starcraft 2 fans, we need to take into account faithful local actions and particularities. Our track record with international events (NASL's WCS 2013 S3 finals & RedBull BG) generated great feedbacks from our partners and French & worldwide communities.
No agreement has been found with ESL since, despite our will to negociate and find a positive solution for every actor involved. However we had to renounce casting the first three WCS seasons, due to the latency in those ongoing discussions. We cannot comply with WCS 2014 following the same patern, which is why we call for community support.
We have good faith community support can help reach this goal, and foster the passion we are all fighting for.
We are eager to find a solution and pursue our common initial goal to keep strenghening the international Sc2 dynamics,
Alexandre 'Pomf' Noci, Ogaming Chairman and CEO & Rémy "Llewellys" Chanson Director Millenium TV / Millenium Esport
And what do you want us to do... "Community support" as in : "Yeah, gogogo french casters !! Hmmm... We're rooting for you ! Why, I don't know, but... hell yeah !"
Lwl you usually are a lot more clear in defining what the problem is... How can you expect to get useful support when people don't even know what the root of the problem is ? DM instead of Twitch IS a vital problem in France since Twitch is so unwatchable even with badass DSL lines, even without taking into account the contracts and sponsoring you get with DM.
If you feel you need to make a statement, make a fucking statement, with facts in it, not weird "hey we are forbidden to stream" when you're not (well not completely), or "support us" when you don't say in WHAT. Or the best you're gonna get is an even weirder "Hey, ... hmmm yeah hu, good luck, go for it !!!"
Is it so fucking hard to just tell plainly that French viewers are reluctant to go on twitch, plus we have a contract with dailymotion, can you let us bring what we have seen over the last year work for us, to the french community who is eager to watch your WCS, hey look : all these guys are supporting us and want us to cast those games. Instead of being awkward. Thank you.
(If DM is indeed the problem)
(btw, fuck Twitch and exclusivity. Anti-trust laws are there for a reason, specifically "Abus de position dominante" here in France.)
On February 15 2014 04:54 SC2Kerri wrote: Dear Starcraft II community,
My name is Sebastien « Kerri », I am the Starcraft II Tournament Director at O’Gaming TV.
Today, ESL Decision was given to us: Access to the WCS is forbidden to French organizations.
On February 16 2014 04:13 OGamingTV wrote: No agreement has been found with ESL since, despite our will to negociate and find a positive solution for every actor involved. However we had to renounce casting the first three WCS seasons, due to the latency in those ongoing discussions. We cannot comply with WCS 2014 following the same patern, which is why we call for community support.
Alexandre 'Pomf' Noci, Ogaming Chairman and CEO & Rémy "Llewellys" Chanson Director Millenium TV / Millenium Esport
These are for me totally different statements. To say "they forbid french organizations" and then changing to "we could not find an agreement" seems just like drama mongering. If I would be Carmac that would leave a sour taste... As I can always see huge interest in French stream I hope it resolves with all sides satisfied, but the way you started this feels wrong. Perhaps you felt pressured because little time left.
Its crazy how many French ppl say that the french scene would die if Millenium and O'gaming dont get their money through casting WCS, EVEN IF they would die off because of that (which i dont want to happen!), then there are still the english streams and other languages, take for example Russia, are there always Russian streams of the WCS, NO! Is the Russian SC2 scene dead, hell NO! If you cant agree to support the Partners of a tournament you shouldnt be allowed to stream it, simple as that! If Buisness would work this way the Financial World would've collapsed long ago.
On February 16 2014 09:55 Radiag wrote: Its crazy how many French ppl say that the french scene would die if Millenium and O'gaming dont get their money through casting WCS, EVEN IF they would die off because of that (which i dont want to happen!), then there are still the english streams and other languages, take for example Russia, are there always Russian streams of the WCS, NO! Is the Russian SC2 scene dead, hell NO! If you cant agree to support the Partners of a tournament you shouldnt be allowed to stream it, simple as that! If Buisness would work this way the Financial World would've collapsed long ago.
Maybe if the partners of the tournament were worth supporting, they would.
Twitch should NOT be the only stream allowed for WCS or any event. It is not good enough as a streaming platform to be the only one available. Even if they want to be the "partner" of WCS, they shouldn't be allowed, simple as that.
Maybe when Twitch is good enough to be the only stream required then they could be the partner and forbid other platforms, but as it is, Twitch is not good enough, and other streaming platforms should be allowed. It would also give Twitch an incentive to actually offer a worthwhile service. As it is they are effectively buying their way to controlling WCS by being the "partner".
While I don't care about the French stream or how much money French casters make, saying that we should support the partners of a tournament just because they are the partner of the tournament is idiotic. TWITCH IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO DESERVE SUPPORT. WHY SHOULD I SUPPORT THEM?
What a huge joke coming from Ogaming statement. First they lied about being forbidden to stream. Now they say they just didn't find an agreement. The only example they gave was aAa streaming wcs S1 and 2, and having bad viewership ? WHO ARE YOU KIDDING ? aAa is a totally irrelevant and unprofessional structure, they have a fucking low viewer base to begin with, and they never stream with DM anyway. So as I said yesterday, you are just some ugly greedy ass that want money money and money.
On February 16 2014 09:55 Radiag wrote: Its crazy how many French ppl say that the french scene would die if Millenium and O'gaming dont get their money through casting WCS, EVEN IF they would die off because of that (which i dont want to happen!), then there are still the english streams and other languages, take for example Russia, are there always Russian streams of the WCS, NO! Is the Russian SC2 scene dead, hell NO! If you cant agree to support the Partners of a tournament you shouldnt be allowed to stream it, simple as that! If Buisness would work this way the Financial World would've collapsed long ago.
Twitch should NOT be the only stream allowed for WCS or any event. It is not good enough as a streaming platform to be the only one available. Even if they want to be the "partner" of WCS, they shouldn't be allowed, simple as that.
Why not? Pretty much every sporting event is connected to a single TV channel, although this works by country rather than EU as a whole. It may be that an event is shown on multiple channels but then that would have been part of the agreement and it is not the case that any channel can broadcast coverage. Twitch have done a similar thing for streaming WCS.
Maybe when Twitch is good enough to be the only stream required then they could be the partner and forbid other platforms, but as it is, Twitch is not good enough, and other streaming platforms should be allowed. It would also give Twitch an incentive to actually offer a worthwhile service. As it is they are effectively buying their way to controlling WCS by being the "partner".
This is how business often works. To do something about this you would need either the EU or the French government to intervene. The alternative would be the French community convincing Blizzard that it would be in their best interests to allow streaming on dailymotion in France and so then Blizzard would make a different deal with twitch (and dailymotion) when the current deal expires. But that would be restricted to the French community rather than the whole community because it would be an issue of what is best for Blizzard in France, and so the opinions of people outside France are kinda irrelevant.
Even then, OGaming has not gone about this in a very sympathetic way.
While I don't care about the French stream or how much money French casters make, saying that we should support the partners of a tournament just because they are the partner of the tournament is idiotic. TWITCH IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO DESERVE SUPPORT. WHY SHOULD I SUPPORT THEM?
You don't have to if you don't want to. You can choose to not watch WCS. If enough people in France choose to not watch WCS EU (and enough people in France explain to Blizzard why) then maybe Blizzard will change things when the current deal with twitch expires. You do not have to support twitch, but you also do not have the right to watch WCS on whatever streaming platform you desire. If Blizzard and twitch have an agreement that prohibits WCS from being streamed outside of twitch then your options are (1) watch WCS on twitch (2) don't watch WCS.
For those who are against the fact that twitch to the monopoly of wcs. For those who want a French stream. For those who want the sc2 community survive. For all that must be reacted blizzard and esl. I suggest boycotting ESL stream and watch Take.tv For all those who say they do not understand German, then you understand why the French community want a French stream.
I do not even understand why this thread got started and is even still open. To me this whole issue is based on assumptions and, additionally, the french organizations are untransparent in their explanation which also tells a lot. I think everyone knows that blizzard/twitch have a clear stance on streaming. If you do not use twitch: game over. Simple as that.
This whole issue should be buried as fast as possible as it is just calling out for a random pitchfork hunt. Not classy at all.
On February 15 2014 11:45 mikumegurine wrote: what happened in previous seasons? WCS and ESL french on Dailymotion without any problems?
Last year ESL (and not Blizzard) gave the exclusive rights to aAa on Twitch without asking to the other websites. The average viewer count was something like 200-300 viewers the good days (it would have been at least 6-7000 on O'Gaming or Millenium).
Fun fact : ESL France's boss is the creator of aAa.
This is just false. Sunscorcher did not create aAa.
- Twitch service has been bad in western Europe and France for quite some time, it costs money to deploy infrastructure there and they can't monetize as well because too many languages (it's much more work to fill ads for EU compared to the US market). EU is somewhat low-prio to them even if they don't admit it (but did you notice how their last infographics were us-centric ?).
- Most french orga have a sort of exclusivity with DM, they have to because otherwise they'd get shit CPM and few viewers (twitch's bandwidth is ass, etc...). French viewers used to complain about no double streams (dm+twitch) to Ogaming during the last year, that's how necessary DM is to some french esports viewers (depending on their ISP, it can make matters worse). Obviously DM servers are in France/EU so DM is watchable.
- Technically, both Mill and Ogaming has been forbidden to stream on the only stream service they can use contractually, so this is not a lie. Nor is what Carmac said. If Mill or Ogaming can't stream it, there is no french stream coverage happening, simple as that.
Personally, I chose option 2 aka "don't watch WCS". I don't like to fight against lag, that's a losing proposition. At least we still have french dota2 coverage that uses DM, so I can watch some esports.
It seems it relates to Twitch vs DM debate. I understand Blizzard & ESL position to respect Twitch exclusivity, however, with SC2 viewership being a bit unstable these day, keeping out a part of the french community seems a bit strange. You could imagine that organization would be more flexible regarding these.
I do hope they find an agreement, because disregarding a community that did gave a back a bit to the game (IronSquid, Stephano) is never good in the long run.
On February 15 2014 06:57 Norz wrote: This is typical french to refuse to adapt to english though. I do agree they kinda have a point, but it's so typical of them, really annoys me.
Also dailymotion is really, REALLY terrible.
?? In most of Europe, Dailymotion is a WAY better player than Twitch tv is.....
twitch is garbage and it should be everyones obligation to try and cut them down and give them competition until they actually step up their shit...
On February 15 2014 06:57 Norz wrote: This is typical french to refuse to adapt to english though. I do agree they kinda have a point, but it's so typical of them, really annoys me.
Also dailymotion is really, REALLY terrible.
?? In most of Europe, Dailymotion is a WAY better player than Twitch tv is.....
twitch is garbage and it should be everyones obligation to try and cut them down and give them competition until they actually step up their shit...
If they are that great then maybe dailymotion should become a partner for WCS so conflicts like these won't be a problem? I don't think bashing a competing platform is gonna accomplish that.
As Twitch is the official tournament broadcast partner for WCS it is likely THEY who are holding the stance of "broadcast on twitch or GTFO". They have no doubt paid a fair sum to Blizzard for this exclusivity and thus you cannot blame them for standing their ground. Carmac also states that:
"he conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue."
Hinting that negotiations are not closed regarding other platforms. This makes Ogaming looks pretty bad with their posts.
Finally, "Iknowthetrue" - you seem to have made a lot of blanket statements from "inside sources". Pretty dubious when you have a grand total of nine posts and bring no substance to back up your claims.
This is my first post here, I’m fan of sc2 from france and i'd like to share with you the post that made the french caster Anoss from ogamingTv on his facebook page in french. I've tried to translate it in english so I’d like to apologize in advance for the possible mistakes i could have made.
Hi guys !
i'd like to make a statement on #WcsEnFrancais. To answer about some of the real problems that prevent us to move forward in the development of Starcaft 2.
I knowk that some of you think the official statements are a bit vague which may create a misunderstanding of the assistance requested. I will, on my own behalf, explain in more detail the issues encountered in france
First of all, the wcs were launched 9 months ago. At this time, the wcs have been attributed to aAa who was among the largest french organizations (Millenium-Ogaming-aAa), the one with the least potential to make a large) number of viewers (traffic site decreasing, junior casters). It was a first choice from ESL hard to understand but accepted.
aAa made his way but they stopped the broadcast for several reasons : the audiences were not enough, the casters were taken apart from the viewers (" why it's not Pomf and thud who's casting ro Yogo/Lewellis ?") and the financial income were null. All of this led to the end of the cast while the wcs is the best sc2 competition. Unthinkable..
The first lesson to take is from this period is that streaming on twitch for french organization is not possible for two reasons : some french internet providers don't allow their customers to see streams on twitch and the cpm is very low in france.
The second point is that France is big consumer of starcraft2 with an established scene. So it appears normal that france should have a french stream to represent it. So it was necessary to find a solution.
That's why we (ogamingTv) started discussions with the ESL for the competition could be casted by the whole french scene (Ogaming and Millenium casting and a representation of aAa casters). It led us to the first issue : we need Dailymotion to make a high quality stream for the event.
And that's the problem, we've never been able to negotiate anything. And i mean no step or solutions were proposed by the ESL, no dynamics to find solution popped out. So we waited. On the paper, solutions seems to exist, a large clause precises that it is to not stream on twitch (http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/about/shoutcasters) if an agreement is found between the two parts.
At the same period, ESL took the decision to not share any games replays which hurted the quality of our youtube channel but we accepted it.
Seeing that the issue wasn't turning in our favor, we kept starting new others projects like Underdogs (a tournement low/top french sc2 players only) for exemple. But there is an issue too wit h it because Lilbow (french protoss) has to play his wcs matches the same night than the Underdogs finals live from the Meltdown bar...
And this is where we are today, this call to the community. I have personnaly the impression to walk sideways for 6 months. We didn't achieve any discussion about findings solutions or agreements for the WCS french cast being awesome and enjoyable as it should be. It's harder and harder to get good quality replays. Our side-projects are shorted by the most beautiful competition whi ch are the WCS. So, undertake new in projects in starcraft 2 is getting harder and harder and with the little slump that the game is going through, it really need some.
In my opinion, i don't understand anymore. I can only, even with OgamingTv, offer you small/medium projects and even with those ones we are taking some risks (Underdogs), whereas we have the f eeling that the french scene wants us to move, to create more stuff, to continue to have fun with starcraft 2
I hope some of you will understand better the issues that led us to the situation. Good evening to all and see you soon.
Yann "Anoss" Lotte
And also, Thud co-founder of OgamingTv answered to this article in french (http://www.inesportwetrust.com/pas-de-stream-en-francais-des-wcs-sur-dailymotion/) who takes the defense of the ESL and this is what he said :
You make suppositions which are inacurrate Roggaaaj (author of the article). At the end of 2013, we made the WCS S3 Toronto finals with a dual stream dailymotion/twitch. And there was no problem, because it was the NASL who produced the competition, not ESL. The truth is more complex. Ask you the question : why the NASL allows a fren dual stream of the WCS, and the ESL refuses ? By the way, this is not only a problem of money like you said
I’m my opinion, I’m sad of the lack communication between the two parts since the whole story popped out. There's been a lot of discussions and not a lot of solution. As a french viewer, i enjoy both french and english casts. I like the english casts because some casters got a huge knowledge about the game and i like french casts because french casters have great personalities and they are very entertaining.
I can attest what Anoss saying, A lot of french providers are deliberately reducing the traffic of Twitch. The situation makes WCS europe unwatchable from 18 :00 to 22:00 after that the traffic is smoother but not ideal. We are still forced to watch twitch on very low quality.
I have followed a lot of Ogaming on Dailymotion and the stream is almost with no flaw in high quality.
Sure I enjoy the english cast , but the french casters are very entertaining to watch.
Also I would like to remind everyone that for any big competition before WCS system like the 2012 MLG and so on French stream was almost always the second one behind the english one because of the quality of the french commentatory team.
I personally did not watch SC2 so much now because of the insanely bad quality of Twitch in France. I hope ESL people will be reasonable on this and allow French to watch WCS on Dailymotion with our favorite commentators.
Meltdown barcraft, Ironsquid, NationWars. We are one of the strongest active community on that game don't let us down, not now.
On February 16 2014 23:18 iknowthetrue wrote: For those who are against the fact that twitch to the monopoly of wcs. For those who want a French stream. For those who want the sc2 community survive. For all that must be reacted blizzard and esl. I suggest boycotting ESL stream and watch Take.tv For all those who say they do not understand German, then you understand why the French community want a French stream.
Abhorrent English aside...
On February 16 2014 23:18 iknowthetrue wrote: For those who are against the fact that twitch to the monopoly of wcs.
"Twitch monopoly of wcs" is called having business partners. It's an agreement considered mutually beneficial that the parties involved have made prior to the start of the WCS Season I'd assume.
On February 16 2014 23:18 iknowthetrue wrote: For those who want a French stream.
You are implying that no French organization has the ability to stream on Twitch.tv. This is objectively false. That they choose not to, regardless as to the reason why, is their own decision and they should very much deal with the consequences, as should anyone who chooses to exclusively support these organizations over other similar ones providing the same kind of content.
On February 16 2014 23:18 iknowthetrue wrote: For those who want the sc2 community survive.
Yes, because someone who is mad on the internet that they can't have their way streaming in a language I'd assume less than 5% of the community speaks to any extent is going to doom us all. How pathetically sensationalist.
On February 16 2014 23:18 iknowthetrue wrote: I suggest boycotting ESL stream and watch Take.tv For all those who say they do not understand German, then you understand why the French community want a French stream.
You are implying that either German or French as languages are as relevant as English is to the general SC2 community. This is, once again, objectively false, no matter how you feel about the issue. The reason most of the content being produced is in English is because English is the language understood by most of the game's audience. There is nothing preventing French (or other nationality / language) organizations from streaming in French (or, again, other languages) other than having to abide by the regulations provided here and imposed by the organizers of the WCS. One of such rules implies streaming on the platform Twitch.tv.
tl;dr: There are clear set rules. French organization does not want to respect these rules. French organization is not given clearance to broadcast their content. French organization is mad.
On February 15 2014 06:57 Norz wrote: This is typical french to refuse to adapt to english though. I do agree they kinda have a point, but it's so typical of them, really annoys me.
Also dailymotion is really, REALLY terrible.
?? In most of Europe, Dailymotion is a WAY better player than Twitch tv is.....
twitch is garbage and it should be everyones obligation to try and cut them down and give them competition until they actually step up their shit...
Funny you should say that, I've had nothing but terrible experiences with Dailymotion (disconnecting randomly every few minutes) whereas issues with Twitch have cleared up recently and were never that prevalent to begin with. So in my opinion, DM is absolutely garbage whereas Twitch is fine.
twitch was at some point rather awful without enough frontends/CDNs/... in Europe, causing huge lag. At least one French ISP was also responsible because of systematic, shameless traffic shaping. This has improved.
On the other hand, it has been more than a year that correct twitch clients have been available for non-desktop environments. There are even better alternatives (<3 vortex) than the official one. I haven't found any for DM.
Having only a DM stream would be a step back for me. But on the other hand, dual stream is probably the best, to leave it up to the final user, as long as everyone plays fair. I don't see anything of the like in the current discussion, with the French casters wording their initial statement in an incomplete, pitchfork-ready, way, and twitch buying their position instead of letting the users (streamers and spectator) pick the best (but that's called advertisement and promotion).
On February 17 2014 22:41 klup wrote: I can attest what Anoss saying, A lot of french providers are deliberately reducing the traffic of Twitch.
Like, what the hell :o Sounds like a good opportunity for french people to start voting with their wallets. I mean really it's the ISPs fault then, not twitch or ESL. I don't know about how it is in france, but at least in finland the ISPs have always been at eachothers throats and if you are not happy with your ISP you can change it and get a good deal from a competing ISP that doesn't cost you money (sometimes you may even save money instead).
I get that it makes sense for ESL to partner up with twitch, since it's the giant in streaming nowadays and so they can most likely reach the most people. If twitch just doesn't cut it in some countries, then I agree that they should make allowances for other streaming services to be used in those countries instead. But now you're telling me it's really a bunch of french companies pissing on twitch and making it unwatchable there.. I am not surprised if twitch isn't super happy about letting DailyMotion take over if that is the case. Change your ISP people, get them out of business.
sad to see ppl like Ogaming able to creat such great event like Iron Squid I & II ( which were on logistic point as much complicated as WCS) can't get more credits. French scene have all my support! plz find suitable solution asap! cheers. coyote
On February 17 2014 00:39 ch33psh33p wrote: Dailymotion is disgusting as a streaming platform.
Please stop trying to stuff it down viewers throats.
While dailymotion's website is not very clear nor functional, dailymotion's HD stream always works way better than twitch's
For once, I'm tired of twitch being the one and only streaming platform for e-sport
I can watch streams on Twitch in HD quality with minimal lag, there used to be short periods of time where I'd get some disgusting lag, but those were fairly few and far between to be honest. That said, I cannot watch DailyMotion because of incessant stuttering, and being told (in my own language, which is fairly weird, but nevermind) that there's a connection issue or something else of the sort every several minutes.
I think people need to realize that not everyone experiences these platforms in the same way (re: people who are pretending that dailymotion is the second coming of jesus) and that ISPs and their policies (especially those that you as a consumer are never told about, hint hint) do impact your internet experience.
The Olympics are broadcast on NBC. Only one network gets to broadcast the Super Bowl. Business deals between leagues and broadcasters are part if the business of producing content. I'm sure twitch doesn't work perfectly everywhere in the world, but that is the nature of the beast. If daily motion wants to broadcast WCS in France, they need to work out a deal wih blizzard. They can't just use another service and say "we like this one better" and expect Blizzard and twitch to be ok with it.
With Orange owning Dailymotion they have no incentive of improving the connection to Twitch as unsatisfied customers will use Dailymotion instead. Now, who is the monopolist and who isn't?
On February 18 2014 00:17 Plansix wrote: The Olympics are broadcast on NBC. Only one network gets to broadcast the Super Bowl. Business deals between leagues and broadcasters are part if the business of producing content. I'm sure twitch doesn't work perfectly everywhere in the world, but that is the nature of the beast. If daily motion wants to broadcast WCS in France, they need to work out a deal wih blizzard. They can't just use another service and say "we like this one better" and expect Blizzard and twitch to be ok with it.
no u guys, esl are teh evilz and we need community support (whatever that means) !!!!111
Again though, I don't see why this is a big deal. If you don't agree to the terms imposed upon you by the organizers, you don't get to broadcast your content involving the organizers' tournament, simple as that.
Lol dailymotion is owned by a French Internet provider! No wonder twitch runs like shit in France, but daily motion runs great. And the best part is people blaming Twich when they are likely getting screwed over by their own ISP.
That something like this happens was obvious from the moment we first saw the WCS conditions that were plagued with the word "twitch" from inside out. Yes, from a short-term point of view, Blizzard probably has a nice cash-inducing deal with twitch about exclusivity, but that's just as short-sighted as everything in today's business world. If they were able and willing to think a little forward, they would have realised that instead of limiting every possible aspect of SC2 in order to milk their "intelectual property", they should have done the polar oposite keep the community as big as possible, if they want to sell something else to it ...
edit: in the meanwhile, a thing I need to quote appeared:
On February 18 2014 00:17 Plansix wrote: The Olympics are broadcast on NBC. Only one network gets to broadcast the Super Bowl. Business deals between leagues and broadcasters are part if the business of producing content. I'm sure twitch doesn't work perfectly everywhere in the world, but that is the nature of the beast. If daily motion wants to broadcast WCS in France, they need to work out a deal wih blizzard. They can't just use another service and say "we like this one better" and expect Blizzard and twitch to be ok with it.
no u guys, esl are teh evilz and we need community support (whatever that means) !!!!111
Again though, I don't see why this is a big deal. If you don't agree to the terms imposed upon you by the organizers, you don't get to broadcast your content involving the organizers' tournament, simple as that.
Or you can post about it on the internet and let people show that the community thinks these rules are idiotic. That may help you in convincing those people, who set them, to change them. So, pragmatically, the French parties are doing exactly the right thing.
On February 18 2014 00:46 opisska wrote: That something like this happens was obvious from the moment we first saw the WCS conditions that were plagued with the word "twitch" from inside out. Yes, from a short-term point of view, Blizzard probably has a nice cash-inducing deal with twitch about exclusivity, but that's just as short-sighted as everything in today's business world. If they were able and willing to think a little forward, they would have realised that instead of limiting every possible aspect of SC2 in order to milk their "intelectual property", they should have done the polar oposite keep the community as big as possible, if they want to sell something else to it ...
edit: in the meanwhile, a thing I need to quote appeared:
On February 18 2014 00:17 Plansix wrote: The Olympics are broadcast on NBC. Only one network gets to broadcast the Super Bowl. Business deals between leagues and broadcasters are part if the business of producing content. I'm sure twitch doesn't work perfectly everywhere in the world, but that is the nature of the beast. If daily motion wants to broadcast WCS in France, they need to work out a deal wih blizzard. They can't just use another service and say "we like this one better" and expect Blizzard and twitch to be ok with it.
no u guys, esl are teh evilz and we need community support (whatever that means) !!!!111
Again though, I don't see why this is a big deal. If you don't agree to the terms imposed upon you by the organizers, you don't get to broadcast your content involving the organizers' tournament, simple as that.
Or you can post about it on the internet and let people show that the community thinks these rules are idiotic. That may help you in convincing those people, who set them, to change them. So, pragmatically, the French parties are doing exactly the right thing.
Yes, let's witchhunt ESL instead of looking at any facet of this issue critically... That'll teach them for daring to partner with certain businesses, you know, as businesses do!
And this is certainly a lesser evil than French ISPs purposefully fucking up connections to Twitch servers in favor of DailyMotion.
On February 18 2014 00:46 opisska wrote: That something like this happens was obvious from the moment we first saw the WCS conditions that were plagued with the word "twitch" from inside out. Yes, from a short-term point of view, Blizzard probably has a nice cash-inducing deal with twitch about exclusivity, but that's just as short-sighted as everything in today's business world. If they were able and willing to think a little forward, they would have realised that instead of limiting every possible aspect of SC2 in order to milk their "intelectual property", they should have done the polar oposite keep the community as big as possible, if they want to sell something else to it ...
edit: in the meanwhile, a thing I need to quote appeared:
On February 18 2014 00:17 Plansix wrote: The Olympics are broadcast on NBC. Only one network gets to broadcast the Super Bowl. Business deals between leagues and broadcasters are part if the business of producing content. I'm sure twitch doesn't work perfectly everywhere in the world, but that is the nature of the beast. If daily motion wants to broadcast WCS in France, they need to work out a deal wih blizzard. They can't just use another service and say "we like this one better" and expect Blizzard and twitch to be ok with it.
no u guys, esl are teh evilz and we need community support (whatever that means) !!!!111
Again though, I don't see why this is a big deal. If you don't agree to the terms imposed upon you by the organizers, you don't get to broadcast your content involving the organizers' tournament, simple as that.
Or you can post about it on the internet and let people show that the community thinks these rules are idiotic. That may help you in convincing those people, who set them, to change them. So, pragmatically, the French parties are doing exactly the right thing.
By demanding that WCS be streamed on a French owned streaming service that is owned by a French ISP? Hey guess what, I don't think it is twitches fault their stream is shit in France.
With Orange owning Dailymotion they have no incentive of improving the connection to Twitch as unsatisfied customers will use Dailymotion instead. Now, who is the monopolist and who isn't?
Where the problem is obviously the fault of French internet providers , NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT, do you really think the SC2 french community will successfully win vs such giants companies? Even if we succeeded to send a letter with 50000 people they will laugh at us.
Atm there are a lot of people complaining about a much big issue which is youtube that is also restrained by certain french provider implying more than a million people and they don't care neither. French internet providers are like the caricature of South park they touch their nipples and *uck u hard but you cant do shit about it.
My point is, even if it's french provider fault, shouldn't ESL be a bit more open and flexible when there is such an issue with their main partner in a country where their game is so popular?
Seriously ESL will not change the situation in france, so why not adapt to it instead of acting as crappy as french internet providers?
On February 18 2014 00:46 opisska wrote: That something like this happens was obvious from the moment we first saw the WCS conditions that were plagued with the word "twitch" from inside out. Yes, from a short-term point of view, Blizzard probably has a nice cash-inducing deal with twitch about exclusivity, but that's just as short-sighted as everything in today's business world. If they were able and willing to think a little forward, they would have realised that instead of limiting every possible aspect of SC2 in order to milk their "intelectual property", they should have done the polar oposite keep the community as big as possible, if they want to sell something else to it ...
edit: in the meanwhile, a thing I need to quote appeared:
On February 18 2014 00:46 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:17 Plansix wrote: The Olympics are broadcast on NBC. Only one network gets to broadcast the Super Bowl. Business deals between leagues and broadcasters are part if the business of producing content. I'm sure twitch doesn't work perfectly everywhere in the world, but that is the nature of the beast. If daily motion wants to broadcast WCS in France, they need to work out a deal wih blizzard. They can't just use another service and say "we like this one better" and expect Blizzard and twitch to be ok with it.
no u guys, esl are teh evilz and we need community support (whatever that means) !!!!111
Again though, I don't see why this is a big deal. If you don't agree to the terms imposed upon you by the organizers, you don't get to broadcast your content involving the organizers' tournament, simple as that.
Or you can post about it on the internet and let people show that the community thinks these rules are idiotic. That may help you in convincing those people, who set them, to change them. So, pragmatically, the French parties are doing exactly the right thing.
By demanding that WCS be streamed on a French owned streaming service that is owned by a French ISP? Hey guess what, I don't think it is twitches fault their stream is shit in France.
And why not? Why do we NOT want WCS to be broadcast in any medium? I don't know about you, but I am a fan of SC2, so I would be very happy if it were accessible to as many people as possible. It already IS broadcasted by Twitch, everyone who wants to watch it there can. By broadcasting it elsewhere, none of us is hurt in any way, so why on Earth wouldn't we support it?
On February 18 2014 00:46 opisska wrote: That something like this happens was obvious from the moment we first saw the WCS conditions that were plagued with the word "twitch" from inside out. Yes, from a short-term point of view, Blizzard probably has a nice cash-inducing deal with twitch about exclusivity, but that's just as short-sighted as everything in today's business world. If they were able and willing to think a little forward, they would have realised that instead of limiting every possible aspect of SC2 in order to milk their "intelectual property", they should have done the polar oposite keep the community as big as possible, if they want to sell something else to it ...
edit: in the meanwhile, a thing I need to quote appeared:
On February 18 2014 00:46 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:17 Plansix wrote: The Olympics are broadcast on NBC. Only one network gets to broadcast the Super Bowl. Business deals between leagues and broadcasters are part if the business of producing content. I'm sure twitch doesn't work perfectly everywhere in the world, but that is the nature of the beast. If daily motion wants to broadcast WCS in France, they need to work out a deal wih blizzard. They can't just use another service and say "we like this one better" and expect Blizzard and twitch to be ok with it.
no u guys, esl are teh evilz and we need community support (whatever that means) !!!!111
Again though, I don't see why this is a big deal. If you don't agree to the terms imposed upon you by the organizers, you don't get to broadcast your content involving the organizers' tournament, simple as that.
Or you can post about it on the internet and let people show that the community thinks these rules are idiotic. That may help you in convincing those people, who set them, to change them. So, pragmatically, the French parties are doing exactly the right thing.
Yes, let's witchhunt ESL instead of looking at any facet of this issue critically... That'll teach them for daring to partner with certain businesses, you know, as businesses do!
And this is certainly a lesser evil than French ISPs purposefully fucking up connections to Twitch servers in favor of DailyMotion.
I have no intention of witchhunting anyone. I do not wish for ESL or Blizzard to cease operation, because I like the product they make. But I would be quite a little happier if they changed the way they do it so that stupid issues such as this one do not arise - and it is completely within their combined powers to do that. Debating what is more "evil" is stupid - that won't bring WCS to French viewers.
edit2: you both seem to almost worship the "business partnership" between Blizzard and Twitch like it was a holy family. Yes, business tend to operate like that. Also, businesses that prefer not screwing with their customers over having the best deal with their partners, tend to have much better public perception, which is something that becomes more crucial every year.
With Orange owning Dailymotion they have no incentive of improving the connection to Twitch as unsatisfied customers will use Dailymotion instead. Now, who is the monopolist and who isn't?
Where the problem is obviously the fault of French internet providers , NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT, do you really think the SC2 french community will successfully win vs such giants companies? Even if we succeeded to send a letter with 50000 people they will laugh at us.
Atm there are a lot of people complaining about a much big issue which is youtube that is also restrained by certain french provider implying more than a million people and they don't care neither. French internet providers are like the caricature of South park they touch their nipples and *uck u hard but you cant do shit about it.
My point is, even if it's french provider fault, should blizzard be a bit more open and flexible when there is such an issue with their main partner in a country where their game is so popular?
Seriously blizzard will not change the situation in france, so why not adapt to it instead of acting as crappy as french internet providers?
No. They shouldnt allow a French IPS to hold WCS and other events on twitch hostage to extort money out of the broadcasters. Blizzard isn't doing anything wrong. Orange is screwing over its customers by throttling twitches stream and forcing people to their service, daily motion.
Twitch and blizzard aren't screwing over anyone. Dailymotion and the company who owns it are screwing over the French viewers to try and force them to not watch twitch.
On February 18 2014 00:57 opisska wrote: I have no intention of witchhunting anyone. I do not wish for ESL or Blizzard to cease operation, because I like the product they make. But I would be quite a little happier if they changed the way they do it so that stupid issues such as this one do not arise - and it is completely within their combined powers to do that. Debating what is more "evil" is stupid - that won't bring WCS to French viewers.
edit2: you both seem to almost worship the "business partnership" between Blizzard and Twitch like it was a holy family. Yes, business tend to operate like that. Also, businesses that prefer not screwing with their customers over having the best deal with their partners, tend to have much better public perception, which is something that becomes more crucial every year.
And I have no intention of supporting or showing any amount of sympathy towards companies with practices as rotten as the one between French ISPs and DailyMotion. Simple as that. And they should not be rewarded for the erroneous and morally reprehensible way they try to conduct business, by being given permission to broadcast this content, the way I see it.
On February 18 2014 00:46 opisska wrote: That something like this happens was obvious from the moment we first saw the WCS conditions that were plagued with the word "twitch" from inside out. Yes, from a short-term point of view, Blizzard probably has a nice cash-inducing deal with twitch about exclusivity, but that's just as short-sighted as everything in today's business world. If they were able and willing to think a little forward, they would have realised that instead of limiting every possible aspect of SC2 in order to milk their "intelectual property", they should have done the polar oposite keep the community as big as possible, if they want to sell something else to it ...
edit: in the meanwhile, a thing I need to quote appeared:
On February 18 2014 00:46 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:17 Plansix wrote: The Olympics are broadcast on NBC. Only one network gets to broadcast the Super Bowl. Business deals between leagues and broadcasters are part if the business of producing content. I'm sure twitch doesn't work perfectly everywhere in the world, but that is the nature of the beast. If daily motion wants to broadcast WCS in France, they need to work out a deal wih blizzard. They can't just use another service and say "we like this one better" and expect Blizzard and twitch to be ok with it.
no u guys, esl are teh evilz and we need community support (whatever that means) !!!!111
Again though, I don't see why this is a big deal. If you don't agree to the terms imposed upon you by the organizers, you don't get to broadcast your content involving the organizers' tournament, simple as that.
Or you can post about it on the internet and let people show that the community thinks these rules are idiotic. That may help you in convincing those people, who set them, to change them. So, pragmatically, the French parties are doing exactly the right thing.
By demanding that WCS be streamed on a French owned streaming service that is owned by a French ISP? Hey guess what, I don't think it is twitches fault their stream is shit in France.
And why not? Why do we NOT want WCS to be broadcast in any medium? I don't know about you, but I am a fan of SC2, so I would be very happy if it were accessible to as many people as possible. It already IS broadcasted by Twitch, everyone who wants to watch it there can. By broadcasting it elsewhere, none of us is hurt in any way, so why on Earth wouldn't we support it?
On February 18 2014 00:46 opisska wrote: That something like this happens was obvious from the moment we first saw the WCS conditions that were plagued with the word "twitch" from inside out. Yes, from a short-term point of view, Blizzard probably has a nice cash-inducing deal with twitch about exclusivity, but that's just as short-sighted as everything in today's business world. If they were able and willing to think a little forward, they would have realised that instead of limiting every possible aspect of SC2 in order to milk their "intelectual property", they should have done the polar oposite keep the community as big as possible, if they want to sell something else to it ...
edit: in the meanwhile, a thing I need to quote appeared:
On February 18 2014 00:46 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:17 Plansix wrote: The Olympics are broadcast on NBC. Only one network gets to broadcast the Super Bowl. Business deals between leagues and broadcasters are part if the business of producing content. I'm sure twitch doesn't work perfectly everywhere in the world, but that is the nature of the beast. If daily motion wants to broadcast WCS in France, they need to work out a deal wih blizzard. They can't just use another service and say "we like this one better" and expect Blizzard and twitch to be ok with it.
no u guys, esl are teh evilz and we need community support (whatever that means) !!!!111
Again though, I don't see why this is a big deal. If you don't agree to the terms imposed upon you by the organizers, you don't get to broadcast your content involving the organizers' tournament, simple as that.
Or you can post about it on the internet and let people show that the community thinks these rules are idiotic. That may help you in convincing those people, who set them, to change them. So, pragmatically, the French parties are doing exactly the right thing.
Yes, let's witchhunt ESL instead of looking at any facet of this issue critically... That'll teach them for daring to partner with certain businesses, you know, as businesses do!
And this is certainly a lesser evil than French ISPs purposefully fucking up connections to Twitch servers in favor of DailyMotion.
I have no intention of witchhunting anyone. I do not wish for ESL or Blizzard to cease operation, because I like the product they make. But I would be quite a little happier if they changed the way they do it so that stupid issues such as this one do not arise - and it is completely within their combined powers to do that. Debating what is more "evil" is stupid - that won't bring WCS to French viewers.
Actually, you are hurting twitch if you decide to broadcast on dailymotion, since they probably paid for the rights.
I am all for wider access, but in a fair way, not by French ISP doing shady throttling to monopolize their stream service in France.
It is really shortsighted to play by the French ISP rules in the name of the French fans. Because if they get their way, you know what? Twitch probably supports the next WCS less, it is simply not good business to pay for exclusivity but then not actually getting it.
On February 18 2014 00:46 Plansix wrote: Lol dailymotion is owned by a French Internet provider! No wonder twitch runs like shit in France, but daily motion runs great. And the best part is people blaming Twich when they are likely getting screwed over by their own ISP.
Orange is not the ISP that makes Twitch running bad. It's Free, mostly.
On February 18 2014 00:46 Plansix wrote: Lol dailymotion is owned by a French Internet provider! No wonder twitch runs like shit in France, but daily motion runs great. And the best part is people blaming Twich when they are likely getting screwed over by their own ISP.
Orange is not the ISP that makes Twitch running bad. It's Free, mostly.
Except they have admited to throttling people's connection to Google and YouTube to push their own service. They only stopped when google dumped money on them. My bet is they are the exact reason why twitch runs like shit for so many people in France.
Plansix, you make a false statement regarding Orange and Twitch. Like Boucot said, Orange never had real issue with Twitch. The only ISP which make Twitch hard to follow is called "Free". But this ISP is one of the leader of the market and a lot of people have subscribed with it. I am using another provider and I have no problem with Twitch.
Also regarding the Dailymotion platform. A few years ago, the streaming with them was awfully bad. But with the work of Ogaming TV, Millenium and other webtv, they have improved a lot to stick with Twitch quality.
On February 18 2014 00:46 opisska wrote: That something like this happens was obvious from the moment we first saw the WCS conditions that were plagued with the word "twitch" from inside out. Yes, from a short-term point of view, Blizzard probably has a nice cash-inducing deal with twitch about exclusivity, but that's just as short-sighted as everything in today's business world. If they were able and willing to think a little forward, they would have realised that instead of limiting every possible aspect of SC2 in order to milk their "intelectual property", they should have done the polar oposite keep the community as big as possible, if they want to sell something else to it ...
edit: in the meanwhile, a thing I need to quote appeared:
On February 18 2014 00:46 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:17 Plansix wrote: The Olympics are broadcast on NBC. Only one network gets to broadcast the Super Bowl. Business deals between leagues and broadcasters are part if the business of producing content. I'm sure twitch doesn't work perfectly everywhere in the world, but that is the nature of the beast. If daily motion wants to broadcast WCS in France, they need to work out a deal wih blizzard. They can't just use another service and say "we like this one better" and expect Blizzard and twitch to be ok with it.
no u guys, esl are teh evilz and we need community support (whatever that means) !!!!111
Again though, I don't see why this is a big deal. If you don't agree to the terms imposed upon you by the organizers, you don't get to broadcast your content involving the organizers' tournament, simple as that.
Or you can post about it on the internet and let people show that the community thinks these rules are idiotic. That may help you in convincing those people, who set them, to change them. So, pragmatically, the French parties are doing exactly the right thing.
By demanding that WCS be streamed on a French owned streaming service that is owned by a French ISP? Hey guess what, I don't think it is twitches fault their stream is shit in France.
And why not? Why do we NOT want WCS to be broadcast in any medium? I don't know about you, but I am a fan of SC2, so I would be very happy if it were accessible to as many people as possible. It already IS broadcasted by Twitch, everyone who wants to watch it there can. By broadcasting it elsewhere, none of us is hurt in any way, so why on Earth wouldn't we support it?
edit:
On February 18 2014 00:52 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:46 opisska wrote: That something like this happens was obvious from the moment we first saw the WCS conditions that were plagued with the word "twitch" from inside out. Yes, from a short-term point of view, Blizzard probably has a nice cash-inducing deal with twitch about exclusivity, but that's just as short-sighted as everything in today's business world. If they were able and willing to think a little forward, they would have realised that instead of limiting every possible aspect of SC2 in order to milk their "intelectual property", they should have done the polar oposite keep the community as big as possible, if they want to sell something else to it ...
edit: in the meanwhile, a thing I need to quote appeared:
On February 18 2014 00:46 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:17 Plansix wrote: The Olympics are broadcast on NBC. Only one network gets to broadcast the Super Bowl. Business deals between leagues and broadcasters are part if the business of producing content. I'm sure twitch doesn't work perfectly everywhere in the world, but that is the nature of the beast. If daily motion wants to broadcast WCS in France, they need to work out a deal wih blizzard. They can't just use another service and say "we like this one better" and expect Blizzard and twitch to be ok with it.
no u guys, esl are teh evilz and we need community support (whatever that means) !!!!111
Again though, I don't see why this is a big deal. If you don't agree to the terms imposed upon you by the organizers, you don't get to broadcast your content involving the organizers' tournament, simple as that.
Or you can post about it on the internet and let people show that the community thinks these rules are idiotic. That may help you in convincing those people, who set them, to change them. So, pragmatically, the French parties are doing exactly the right thing.
Yes, let's witchhunt ESL instead of looking at any facet of this issue critically... That'll teach them for daring to partner with certain businesses, you know, as businesses do!
And this is certainly a lesser evil than French ISPs purposefully fucking up connections to Twitch servers in favor of DailyMotion.
I have no intention of witchhunting anyone. I do not wish for ESL or Blizzard to cease operation, because I like the product they make. But I would be quite a little happier if they changed the way they do it so that stupid issues such as this one do not arise - and it is completely within their combined powers to do that. Debating what is more "evil" is stupid - that won't bring WCS to French viewers.
Actually, you are hurting twitch if you decide to broadcast on dailymotion, since they probably paid for the rights.
I am all for wider access, but in a fair way, not by French ISP doing shady throttling to monopolize their stream service in France.
It is really shortsighted to play by the French ISP rules in the name of the French fans. Because if they get their way, you know what? Twitch probably supports the next WCS less, it is simply not good business to pay for exclusivity but then not actually getting it.
And you know what , French people has not been able to watch properly all the WCS europe 2013 because of that issue. WCS korea and america were ok because they were very early in the morning or very late the night but I couldn't follow properly WCS europe and was obliged to follow it by the great but not as exciting LR. If you think ESL will make french ISP bend where all the consumer association of France failed miserably on the related youtube issue you are plain wrong. Yes French ISP are very bad but we will not move the mountain.
Also Twitch is not all white in this , everybody know they lack of infrastructure in europe.
So yes it is shortsighted but When you see how the french SC2 community and particulary OgamingTv have been struggling so much last year, only allowed to cast MLG (who died in middle of the year) and the homestory cups , how theses structures are supposed to live? Who will watch a stream that stutter step every 2 second?
Things have been improved this year because it's not a ALL WCS system so other tournaments can live such as NationWars.
The only positive aspect of this situation is that the desperation about ESL/Twitch issue will probably help us seeing more Nationwars/Ironsquid stuff that Ogamingtv produce.
A lot of my friends began starcraft watching Pomf&Thud videos on youtube, They brought a lot to SC2 in France and they merit some kind of support I think.
Edit : and yes it's mainly free that is the issue but also others, actually orange is one of the "ok" providers with twitch
On February 18 2014 01:45 Alfindor wrote: Plansix, you make a false statement regarding Orange and Twitch. Like Boucot said, Orange never had real issue with Twitch. The only ISP which make Twitch hard to follow is called "Free". But this ISP is one of the leader of the market and a lot of people have subscribed with it. I am using another provider and I have no problem with Twitch.
Also regarding the Dailymotion platform. A few years ago, the streaming with them was awfully bad. But with the work of Ogaming TV, Millenium and other webtv, they have improved a lot to stick with Twitch quality.
So orange, who previously admitted to throttling YouTube traffic to get people to use daily motion, is not throttling twitch?
On February 18 2014 01:45 Alfindor wrote: Plansix, you make a false statement regarding Orange and Twitch. Like Boucot said, Orange never had real issue with Twitch. The only ISP which make Twitch hard to follow is called "Free". But this ISP is one of the leader of the market and a lot of people have subscribed with it. I am using another provider and I have no problem with Twitch.
Also regarding the Dailymotion platform. A few years ago, the streaming with them was awfully bad. But with the work of Ogaming TV, Millenium and other webtv, they have improved a lot to stick with Twitch quality.
So orange, who previously admitted to throttling YouTube traffic to get people to use daily motion, is not throttling twitch?
Actually I don't know where you get that but Orange is making youtube and twitch working fine. The real ISP that mess with everything is Free and by extend Alice. Broadcasting a show that almost half of their audience can't see is really problematic for OgamingTv
IF ur read the article joined on the UK journalism site , you will see that orange negociated financial arrangment with Google but Free want to do the same so they are blocking google thinking they have the better power here. But I guess when they will see their sales drop they will turn sides, I hope! Guess it must be the same kind of issues for twitch.
With Orange owning Dailymotion they have no incentive of improving the connection to Twitch as unsatisfied customers will use Dailymotion instead. Now, who is the monopolist and who isn't?
Where the problem is obviously the fault of French internet providers , NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT, do you really think the SC2 french community will successfully win vs such giants companies? Even if we succeeded to send a letter with 50000 people they will laugh at us.
Atm there are a lot of people complaining about a much big issue which is youtube that is also restrained by certain french provider implying more than a million people and they don't care neither. French internet providers are like the caricature of South park they touch their nipples and *uck u hard but you cant do shit about it.
My point is, even if it's french provider fault, shouldn't ESL be a bit more open and flexible when there is such an issue with their main partner in a country where their game is so popular?
Seriously ESL will not change the situation in france, so why not adapt to it instead of acting as crappy as french internet providers?
I am not against a solution where WCS Europe is allowed to be streamed on Dailymotion. But crying over the Twitch monopoly is hypocritical when a big factor for the bad service in the first place is the monopoly of certain ISPs (which many can understand, ISPs are shitty almost everywhere).
Btw, ISPs mostly don't throttle services. They just neglect to invest to expand the peering towards popular service providers. Possibly both sides are to blame for that.
What made the campaign dishonest was the initial post. When you claim ESL is to blame without giving any real information, you basically are doing a witchhunt. It's mostly a deal between multiple companies. You can ask for the community to rally behind something, but you should be fair enough to give them the information to make their own judgement.
On February 18 2014 01:45 Alfindor wrote: Plansix, you make a false statement regarding Orange and Twitch. Like Boucot said, Orange never had real issue with Twitch. The only ISP which make Twitch hard to follow is called "Free". But this ISP is one of the leader of the market and a lot of people have subscribed with it. I am using another provider and I have no problem with Twitch.
Also regarding the Dailymotion platform. A few years ago, the streaming with them was awfully bad. But with the work of Ogaming TV, Millenium and other webtv, they have improved a lot to stick with Twitch quality.
So orange, who previously admitted to throttling YouTube traffic to get people to use daily motion, is not throttling twitch?
Actually I don't know where you get that but Orange is making youtube and twitch working fine. The real ISP that mess with everything is Free and by extend Alice. Broadcasting a show that almost half of their audience can't see is really problematic for OgamingTv
There is an article on the precious page in the thread where the CEO of Orange admits to "forcing google to pay the drive traffic to them". It is basically the opposit of net neutrality, where the ISP works out deals with companies to provide them with higher bandwidth rates. So before google paid the money, people using YouTube were getting shitty bit rates, even though there were paying for a specific connection speed.
With Orange owning Dailymotion they have no incentive of improving the connection to Twitch as unsatisfied customers will use Dailymotion instead. Now, who is the monopolist and who isn't?
Where the problem is obviously the fault of French internet providers , NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT, do you really think the SC2 french community will successfully win vs such giants companies? Even if we succeeded to send a letter with 50000 people they will laugh at us.
Atm there are a lot of people complaining about a much big issue which is youtube that is also restrained by certain french provider implying more than a million people and they don't care neither. French internet providers are like the caricature of South park they touch their nipples and *uck u hard but you cant do shit about it.
My point is, even if it's french provider fault, shouldn't ESL be a bit more open and flexible when there is such an issue with their main partner in a country where their game is so popular?
Seriously ESL will not change the situation in france, so why not adapt to it instead of acting as crappy as french internet providers?
I am not against a solution where WCS Europe is allowed to be streamed on Dailymotion. But crying over the Twitch monopoly is hypocritical when a big factor for the bad service in the first place is the monopoly of certain ISPs (which many can understand, ISPs are shitty almost everywhere).
Btw, ISPs mostly don't throttle services. They just neglect to invest to expand the peering towards popular service providers. Possibly both sides are to blame for that.
What made the campaign dishonest was the initial post. When you claim ESL is to blame without giving any real information, you basically are doing a witchhunt. It's mostly a deal between multiple companies. You can ask for the community to rally behind something, but you should be fair enough to give them the information to make their own judgement.
What we can hear from the post of Anoss is that it is clearly ESL is not that white in this matter :
And that's the problem, we've never been able to negotiate anything. And i mean no step or solutions were proposed by the ESL, no dynamics to find solution popped out. So we waited. On the paper, solutions seems to exist, a large clause precises that it is to not stream on twitch (http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/about/shoutcasters) if an agreement is found between the two parts.
At the same period, ESL took the decision to not share any games replays which hurted the quality of our youtube channel but we accepted it.
There is an article on the precious page in the thread where the CEO of Orange admits to "forcing google to pay the drive traffic to them". It is basically the opposit of net neutrality, where the ISP works out deals with companies to provide them with higher bandwidth rates. So before google paid the money, people using YouTube were getting shitty bit rates, even though there were paying for a specific connection speed.
I think they applied the limit bandwith only in Africa to put pressure on google and then negociation happened.
On February 18 2014 00:46 Plansix wrote: Lol dailymotion is owned by a French Internet provider! No wonder twitch runs like shit in France, but daily motion runs great. And the best part is people blaming Twich when they are likely getting screwed over by their own ISP.
Orange is not the ISP that makes Twitch running bad. It's Free, mostly.
It's the same provider that Dayshi uses that doesn't allow him to play on Battle.net after a specific daytime, right? Why do so many people use Free?
On February 18 2014 00:46 Plansix wrote: Lol dailymotion is owned by a French Internet provider! No wonder twitch runs like shit in France, but daily motion runs great. And the best part is people blaming Twich when they are likely getting screwed over by their own ISP.
Orange is not the ISP that makes Twitch running bad. It's Free, mostly.
It's the same provider that Dayshi uses that doesn't allow him to play on Battle.net after a specific daytime, right? Why do so many people use Free?
On February 18 2014 01:45 Alfindor wrote: Plansix, you make a false statement regarding Orange and Twitch. Like Boucot said, Orange never had real issue with Twitch. The only ISP which make Twitch hard to follow is called "Free". But this ISP is one of the leader of the market and a lot of people have subscribed with it. I am using another provider and I have no problem with Twitch.
Also regarding the Dailymotion platform. A few years ago, the streaming with them was awfully bad. But with the work of Ogaming TV, Millenium and other webtv, they have improved a lot to stick with Twitch quality.
So orange, who previously admitted to throttling YouTube traffic to get people to use daily motion, is not throttling twitch?
Actually I don't know where you get that but Orange is making youtube and twitch working fine. The real ISP that mess with everything is Free and by extend Alice. Broadcasting a show that almost half of their audience can't see is really problematic for OgamingTv
There is an article on the precious page in the thread where the CEO of Orange admits to "forcing google to pay the drive traffic to them". It is basically the opposit of net neutrality, where the ISP works out deals with companies to provide them with higher bandwidth rates. So before google paid the money, people using YouTube were getting shitty bit rates, even though there were paying for a specific connection speed.
This is the problem in France these years, ISP are tired to provide that much bandwidth to their clients from Google mostly, while google contributes nearly nothing (don't pay the same kind of taxes etc). Google has a huge levy because having a good access to google/youtube brings client to the ISP, but it's still not "fair" since the ISP is paying for the most part of the way the data packet takes. Usually companies expand their bandwidth symetrically with agreements. We had problems between Orange and Free because Orange didn't want to pay for his clients to access the Free customers websites (which used to host a lot of data). Same problem now between Google and Free, Free wants Google to contribute to the increase in bandwidth they generate, Google doesn't want to, Free throttles google. Customers fucked.
But this is not really related, the main problem here is Twitch, and the bandwidth is only one of two major issues. As people mentioned, Twitch doesn't have a lot of contracts with advertising companies here, so offers a very low income, and is not sustainable for the french stream companies. Was Twitch developed here, it could work even with shitty bandwidth for the streamers. But forcing streamers to lose money AND offer an awful experience to the viewers is a lose/lose situation for us...
If this thread has taught me anything, it's to look your ISP before blaming the broadcasting service. The whole argument of "Twich is broken, but YouTube runs fine" should be a red flag that maybe it isn't caused by infrastructure.
On February 18 2014 02:29 Plansix wrote: If this thread has taught me anything, it's to look your ISP before blaming the broadcasting service. The whole argument of "Twich is broken, but YouTube runs fine" should be a red flag that maybe it isn't caused by infrastructure.
YouTube and Twitch are unwatchable if you have Free.
On February 18 2014 02:29 Plansix wrote: If this thread has taught me anything, it's to look your ISP before blaming the broadcasting service. The whole argument of "Twich is broken, but YouTube runs fine" should be a red flag that maybe it isn't caused by infrastructure.
youtube doesn't run fine, twitch doesn't run fine x) (never has for me)
And your sentence is wrong, bad peering can be attributed to either isp or website... Looking at the performance of another service to judge who is in the wrong is usually a very shitty comparison :-p Orange probably has bad peering with outgoing traffic to several european providers, which explains the bad quality of service of DM for a part of Europe, and a good one for the rest.
Same with Twitch. When you run faster when directly connecting to an american twitch server than a european one (see R1CH posts about that a few months ago), you know something is *also* wrong with Twitch ;-)
yep nouar and klup summed up well the whole issue . and yeah google is for free internet be equal blablabla . first they should pay their taxes like everyone else and then we talk about fairness .
dailymotion brings healthy money to streamer compared to twitch so why not support that also. if you want esport to be alive people should be able to live from it . anyway dont forget esl in all that : dont sharing replay and banning ogamingtv from all their 2013 events what a great way to promote esports gentlemen! Mr day9 has all the replays he wants so dont understand why french broadcaster cant have them . many curious things on their side
adblock on for esl ungil fixed not so much but hey i contribute
ISPs don't throttle traffic, they just have bad peering with the CDN used by twitch
twitch happen to use the cheap and terrible Level3 CDN, which is even worse in france than it is in the rest of EU Level3 is cheap because they try to make ISPs pay to peer with them
at least MLG made the right move and went with akamai
if you want good peering in france, you can go with sfr or bouygue, they have much better peering than orange and free
On February 18 2014 02:54 SSVnormandy wrote: yep nouar and klup summed up well the whole issue . and yeah google is for free internet be equal blablabla . first they should pay their taxes like everyone else and then we talk about fairness .
dailymotion brings healthy money to streamer compared to twitch so why not support that also. if you want esport to be alive people should be able to live from it . anyway dont forget esl in all that : dont sharing replay and banning ogamingtv from all their 2013 events what a great way to promote esports gentlemen! Mr day9 has all the replays he wants so dont understand why french broadcaster cant have them . many curious things on their side
adblock on for esl ungil fixed not so much but hey i contribute
Dailymotion needs to reach out to Blizzard and work out a deal with them, just like twitch did. It's not ESLs job to do daily motion's work for them.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
On February 18 2014 00:46 Plansix wrote: Lol dailymotion is owned by a French Internet provider! No wonder twitch runs like shit in France, but daily motion runs great. And the best part is people blaming Twich when they are likely getting screwed over by their own ISP.
Orange is not the ISP that makes Twitch running bad. It's Free, mostly.
It's the same provider that Dayshi uses that doesn't allow him to play on Battle.net after a specific daytime, right? Why do so many people use Free?
Provides one of the best Boxes, allows you to customize your connection to a very high degre, error correction etc, to improve your ping or stability, etc etc etc, a lot of tools for the geeks since it's owned by a geek. Used to be very, very good a few years ago, now is reluctant to invest money to develop their network (3G/4G is shit. I live in Paris and it took me 1.5h to download a 15MB app last week), and for home internet, it's core network is starting to go down, too. Still has a good image cause they are moving the overall market in the right direction, and excellent prices, so still very popular. But the quality of service has gone down A LOT.
On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative.
The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing.
And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU .
On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative.
The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing.
And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU .
I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me....
I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag.
People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs.
On February 18 2014 04:08 Otolia wrote: I applaude the ones who succeeded in turning a legitimate discussion about ESL's decisions into a mind-numbing debate on french ISPs.
Considering the dailymotion is owned by a French ISP, it's a good topic. People are just pointing out that the issue is out of ESLs control, that dailymotion needs to work wih Blizzard and that the reason twitch sucks in France might not have anything to do with twitch itself.
On February 18 2014 04:08 Otolia wrote: I applaude the ones who succeeded in turning a legitimate discussion about ESL's decisions into a mind-numbing debate on french ISPs.
Considering the dailymotion is owned by a French ISP, it's a good topic. People are just pointing out that the issue is out of ESLs control, that dailymotion needs to work wih Blizzard and that the reason twitch sucks in France might not have anything to do with twitch itself.
It doesn't, lot of french people said they have no problem with twitch. Soo the problem is their ISP, not twitch. HB btw.
On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative.
The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing.
And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU .
I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me....
I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag.
People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs.
Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money?
There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation.
And Carmac said there was seems to me that ogaming/others just think its not worth the price. Maybe the price is legitly so high they really can't pay it or maybe they just don't want to either way rather than say that they decided to claim they were completely banned.
thats not going to earn them any friends and it wasn't like their deceit was hard to uncover which just makes the decision to make that claim all the weirder.
On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative.
The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing.
And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU .
I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me....
I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag.
People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs.
Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money?
There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation.
No negociation with ESL, and that normal. Ogaming should ask DM to treat with Blizzard, not ESL.
On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative.
The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing.
And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU .
I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me....
I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag.
People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs.
Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money?
There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation.
Do you understand that ESL can't? WCS is blizzards show, they just produce it by the terms Blizzard set out. If people want to broadcast on non-twitch services, they need to go to Blizzard. ESL can't make the decision on Blizzards behalf.
On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative.
The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing.
And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU .
I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me....
I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag.
People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs.
Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money?
There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation.
Do you understand that ESL can't? WCS is blizzards show, they just produce it by the terms Blizzard set out. If people want to broadcast on non-twitch services, they need to go to Blizzard. ESL can't make the decision on Blizzards behalf.
But NASL can ? Because NASL did allow it. I'd really like to know if it had some consequences for NASL truthfully.
On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative.
The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing.
And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU .
I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me....
I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag.
People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs.
Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money?
There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation.
You do realize that if every single person who was having issues did what you just suggested and switched providers, you'd solve the root of the problem by talking in the only language corporations and multinationals really talk in; £$€.
For all the sob stories of people who legitimately can't access another ISP, too young, too broke etc. are the 1000s of complainers who simply are unwilling to make a statement or possibly just too cheap to be bothered to change ISP. But then we are getting into a whole different subject on human social conditioning so I'll just leave it there.
But you seem to think leaving a shitstorm at ESL or Blizzard's door like they are killing esports when they are simply honoring the terms of a partnership is a better solution.
Essentially what you are telling Free, Orange etc. is that it isn't worth your money to have access to these services, and they won't lose money from you going elsewhere since you don't care enough to change, but if it costs them more to cripple bandwidth then it does to play favorites then you can get to the root of the problem.
from what i can tell and i am making assumptions here esl isn't willing to let a rival to their partner stream wcs without some sort of cash. seems to be free or atleast i haven't heard of any fees being demanded for streaming twitch.
which frankly only makes sense to me twitch is a partner presumably payed for such a status and a rival of theirs can get the same benefit for no disadvantage and no amount payed? what part of that makes any sense? I think it's entirely logical for ESL to demand some sort of compensation before giving dailymotion the same privilege that twitch already payed for.
ogaming simply thinks the price is too high and that lying about what happened is the best way to make it lower.
On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative.
The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing.
And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU .
I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me....
I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag.
People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs.
Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money?
There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation.
Do you understand that ESL can't? WCS is blizzards show, they just produce it by the terms Blizzard set out. If people want to broadcast on non-twitch services, they need to go to Blizzard. ESL can't make the decision on Blizzards behalf.
But NASL can ? Because NASL did allow it. I'd really like to know if it had some consequences for NASL truthfully.
I don't know they NASL didn't request that they shut down the stream, but they might not have noticed it was on DM? ESL might just be more aware if how their stream is bein broadcast in EU. But that's not the point. If DM wants to broadcast WCS, blizzard are the decision makers as to which streaming platform is used.
Dailymotion is a buggy pile of crap to watch streams anyway. I hope they will be forced to use Twitch. And I am french.
Inasmuch in my student residence I simply can't have access to more than 2 minutes of Twitch in proper condition, but that I have no issue at all on Millenium TV and dailymotion, I believe i can deny your statement.
Moreover, since I can't use Twitch, with my somewhat poor internet that I can't change at all (except if I leave my flat, but that's not something I can consider), I can definitely say that ESL forbids me from watching WCS.
Dailymotion is a buggy pile of crap to watch streams anyway. I hope they will be forced to use Twitch. And I am french.
Inasmuch in my student residence I simply can't have access to more than 2 minutes of Twitch in proper conditions but I have no issue at all on Millenium TV and dailymotion, I believe i can deny your statement.
And since I can't use Twitch and have somewhat poor internet and that I can't change it at all, I can definitely say that ESL forbids me from watching WCS.
But that had to do with your schools Internet, rather than twitch. It's like blaming HBO because your school does have premium cable and your missing game of thrones.
That still changes nothing to the fact that Dailymotion isn't crap. I can watch HD stream from home and student residence without suffering any drops or lags most of the time. It suffers at least 10 times less issues than Twitch, at least.
On February 18 2014 05:41 Ishentar wrote: That still changes nothing to the fact that Dailymotion isn't crap. I can watch HD stream from home and student residence without suffering any drops or lags.
Well life is hard like that. I can't watch homeland until it comes out on Amazon because I don't have show time. But I'm not blaming amazon for not having it day and date with Showtime.
Love how people say its blizzard issue when it's clearly ESL involved since NASL allowed Ogamingtv to broadcast. NASL is the blizzard broadcaster of WCS AM so there is absolutely no difference between NASL and ESL situation except that one of them is clearly trying to annoy the french broadcast whereas the other is more reasonable.
Dailymotion is a buggy pile of crap to watch streams anyway. I hope they will be forced to use Twitch. And I am french.
Inasmuch in my student residence I simply can't have access to more than 2 minutes of Twitch in proper condition, but that I have no issue at all on Millenium TV and dailymotion, I believe i can deny your statement.
As a statement, yes. As an opinion, no. In my case, I concur with Yui (also, K-ON \o/).
Maybe DM is better for people using Orange?
Anyway this is not the issue. If some (emphasis on *some*) people cannot watch WCS on Twitch because of bad peering (or rumored traffic shaping from the ISPs or whatever), because of the exclusive partnership between Blizzard and Twitch, the issue should be taken to Blizzard and Twitch. Trying to rile up people on TL to throw pitchforks at ESL is a waste of time for everyone. Especially when speaking on behalf of the "entire" french community, which is, simply based on these topics, not that unanimous in the first place.
Yes, it's too bad if some people cannot properly watch WCS because of this. The world is not fair like that sometimes. If DailyMotion is really the only way to fix this, the solution is the same -> talk with Blizzard/Twitch.
Also it's funny how the "main problem" keeps switching since the initial post on the subject. Is it that french streams are banned by ESL? That Twitch doesn't generate enough money for the french streams? That french companies are contracted to DailyMotion? That Twitch is unwatchable for some? That french ISPs are plotting to kill any streaming platform that isn't DailyMotion?
The actual issue seems to keep mutating depending on the opposing arguments that are made...
Edit: I tried to ignore the various assumptions that have been made around all this, but I failed for (at least) one thing. Among the things we have no idea about (which is most of it), we don't know who the company *actually* responsible for the decision is.
ESL may be the initial one, in which case if they're contacted and they decide that only Twitch is allowed, the next step would be to contact the next level, be it Blizzard or Twitch. And if they also reject the propositions, and you still believe that you have a point, then why not ask the community for support, by *politely* messaging/tweeting at ESL/Twitch/Blizzard in order to show them that people are interested? Even if it's too late for the current season, maybe it would make them reconsider their position for the next one? And if they *still* don't allow it... deal with it. Or... you know... throw a fit and try to start a war. Freedom of choice and all that.
However what's been done here is "lying" (even if it's by omission) in the initial post about french streams being banned by ESL, in order to try to make enough people angry to force ESL into submission. Without giving any actual details about what the problem is and what's been done to try to solve it the 'official' way. And multiple cases of speaking for the entire country (or the majority, or most of the people, whatever) as if there actually was unanimous support for the whole thing...
ESL decides who has the right to stream the WCS EU, not blizzard. Stop protecting ESL. ESL shit on the French SC2 community and for the development of SC2 I do not think it is a good idea.
On February 18 2014 06:57 iknowthetrue wrote: ESL decides who has the right to stream the WCS EU, not blizzard. Stop protecting ESL. ESL shit on the French SC2 community and for the development of SC2 I do not think it is a good idea.
How do you know this? They didn't say the French streamers couldn't do it. They said the streamers had to use Twitch, which is the official streaming service for WCS.
On February 18 2014 06:57 iknowthetrue wrote: ESL decides who has the right to stream the WCS EU, not blizzard. Stop protecting ESL. ESL shit on the French SC2 community and for the development of SC2 I do not think it is a good idea.
wrong Twitch is official partner for WCS 2014 I am not french and not living in France, but I know for 3 years that twitch is terrible in France.
Oh fuck you're seriously tiring... People from all over Europe have been complaining for YEARS about the poor twitch quality of service and infrastructure in Europe, and each and every live report still has people from all countries and ISP complaining, maybe you can admit that Twitch does have SOME problems, TOO, and not everything is to blame on our ISP ? Plansix you're awfully stuck on your ideas, it's crazy.
Even R1CH made a fucking hack to connect to american twitch servers and magically a lot of us could watch HD from across the atlantic, while the euro servers where crap for a good percentage of viewers...
Not answering anymore, I've said what I had to previously, any further post would be more (too) angry at people not trying to understand point of views and opinions.
You basically explain us that you have good experience with Twitch, we believe you. You basically explain us that you have poor experience with DailyMotion, we believe you.
Can't you believe that we experience the opposite thing ? We aren't you and you aren't us.
I hope one day everyone switches to Youtube for stream service, flawless streaming in HQ on Youtube. Twitch has had poor quality ever since they stopped having real competitors like ownd3d ect. Hope the French viewers get this issue resolved. Sucks not being able to watch StarCraft 2 properly. If YouTube ever sets up a system that pays streamers, Twitch is going to have to step it up in the quality.
On February 18 2014 07:46 Ishentar wrote: Seriously, is this that hard to understand ?
You basically explain us that you have good experience with Twitch, we believe you. You basically explain us that you have poor experience with DailyMotion, we believe you.
Can't you believe that we experience the opposite thing ? We aren't you and you aren't us.
The thing you don't seem to understand, is that it doesn't matter. Twitch is the official streaming platform for WCS. Twitch and Blizzard have a streaming contract. If you want to stream WCS on a platform other than twitch, you need Blizzard's permission, but since Blizzard is a partner of twitch, they are unlikely to allow a stream other than on twitch. it doesn't matter what ESL wants or NASL wants or Ogaming wants. Its what Blizzard and Twitch wants, which, for Twitch, Is that they are the only stream.
The real thing you don't seem to understand is that this message was actually adressed to all the ones explaining how good Twitch is and how bad DM is.
On February 18 2014 08:31 forsooth wrote: So is net neutrality an issue in France then? I was under the impression that the EU frowned upon that sort of thing.
On February 18 2014 08:31 Ishentar wrote: The real thing you don't seem to understand is that this message was actually adressed to all the ones explaining how good Twitch is and how bad DM is.
Yeah, twitch may be terrible in France, even unwatchable, but that's not going change anything.
On February 18 2014 08:31 forsooth wrote: So is net neutrality an issue in France then? I was under the impression that the EU frowned upon that sort of thing.
peering issues are a complex matter, especially with orange being a Tier1 ISP (twitch deciding to go for cheap and terrible Level3 is not helping)
people seem to want french people to choose from the ISP with less problems (sfr is good, bouygue has perfect peering), but these ISPs have to pay to peer with Level3 orange being a tier1, they refuse to pay of course, and free tries to have level3 (and google) pay them to peer
of course, twitch doesn't seem to look for private peering with ISPs in EU (that would require them to make good decision and to spend money which they don't seem to do a lot), despite their thousand new datacenters in EU as they say(?)
paid peering won't help net neutrality, people switching ISP to ones that pay to peer with level3 would only make things worse
we'll just have to wait for level3 and the like to slowly die
Yeah, twitch may be terrible in France, even unwatchable, but that's not going change anything.
Never said it was going to change anything about the debate in itself, but we can't discuss if like a third of people here don't even trust the french when they say that twitch is bad in France and DM is perfectly fine in France.
On February 18 2014 07:46 Ishentar wrote: You basically explain us that you have good experience with Twitch, we believe you. You basically explain us that you have poor experience with DailyMotion, we believe you.
Can't you believe that we experience the opposite thing ? We aren't you and you aren't us.
Nobody said you were wrong. And nobody denied that not having a non-Twitch stream is a problem for affected people who may not be able to watch WCS because of it.
However there have been many attempts to refocus the topic on the actual issue, which is not Twitch vs DailyMotion (both have problems, for different people and different reasons), nor french ISPs, nor the financial stability of whatever companies.
This has been a call for pitchforks (on behalf of all french viewers), not for discussions. Not for affected people to manifest themselves (politely) so that the Powers That Be could have an idea of the importance of this issue, which may or may not end up being taken under consideration. Their decision.
If there's no french stream for WCS and it notably affects viewership, the PTB may decide to reevaluate their position. Or not. Or it may not impact viewership at all. Or they may not care. Who knows? How would pitchforks help in all this exactly?
The 'debate' should have ended with Carmac's post (or rather it shouldn't have started in the first place...)
Does anyone have numbers for the IEM viewership from France this past week-end? Was it abysmal? Did no one from France even tried watching the Twitch stream? Was Twitch unwatchable for nearly everyone? If I were to venture a guess, I'd say that there probably were quite a few french viewers watching most of it. Why would it be any different for WCS?
Nobody said you were wrong. And nobody denied that not having a non-Twitch stream is a problem for affected people who may not be able to watch WCS because of it.
Nobody ? I'm pretty sure that on the two topics about the ESL / O'gaming/Millenium/aAa dispute and the reddit, I can find at least 40 posts defending the opposite. Just taking a random page I found 2 posts going this way. Another page 1, and a last page 3. Well maybe it's troll or newcomers that sill doesn't know it... but well, the fact that following all these topics I found it so many times just made me want to be clear on that point.
Nobody said you were wrong. And nobody denied that not having a non-Twitch stream is a problem for affected people who may not be able to watch WCS because of it.
Nobody ? I'm pretty sure that on the two topics about the ESL / O'gaming/Millenium/aAa dispute and the reddit, I can find at least 50 posts defending the opposite.
Granted I haven't paid attention to every post (and not at all to reddit), but are these posts defending the opposite or basically saying "who cares?"
It seems obvious that people not being able to watch WCS because of Twitch is not good for them. Saying the opposite would seem to be mostly trolling, or being very unclear. I can understand this upsetting those who are still unable to watch anything on Twitch (even though it seems to have improved a *lot* recently, I obviously can't speak for everyone in the country).
But... this is *still* not the issue.
Twitch performance has been bad for many people in many countries for many months. And it's been good for many people in many countries for many months.
And this has no importance whatsoever regarding the WCS broadcasting rights. Or regarding the way O'Gaming brought it up in public.
(I quoted before your edit, but it doesn't impact the answer )
I'm happy OGaming made this public, because sc2 casting in France is a big mess! It's about time for Blizzard and everyone to realize that Pomf & Thud and their OGaming organization, are the only ones in this country who are able to bring viewers to starcraft!
Business clauses and policies are justified from the individual perspectives of each organization involved but in this case they are actually counterproductive because they prevent viewers from watching sc2!
OGaming has nothing to prove, they made the whole Ironsquid tournament(!), they're a passionate, charismatic and talented team. They're the best thing that happened to eSports in France by far! Nobody else has made such a big impact in french eSport history from the public perspective. That is why the vast majority of the french viewers actually like, want and need to have them on stream! They are the ones that french viewers want to see, plain and simple!
Yet until now thanks to exclusivity clauses it's been almost a year since OGaming casted any "high-caliber" sc2 tournament. That's a fact and it's unbelievable! So if sc2 viewership rates in France are falling it's no surprise to me!
OGaming have now teamed up with aAa and Millenium to bring non-stop french casting of tournaments, they did it a few times already and it was awesome! Even when it was like 8 straight hours of matches in the middle of the night (timezones I hate you)! So maybe that's surprising to you, but unless Blizzard would rather have no french-speaking sc2 viewers left than adapt to the reality of this "local market" I think OGaming should be made able to cast WCS!
TLDR; ESL may have the contract with Blizz, but in France they don't have the popularity necessary to bring viewers, so if no arrangement is made viewership will be awful and that'll be it. ...so better make an exception !
On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative.
The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing.
And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU .
I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me....
I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag.
People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs.
Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money?
There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation.
Do you understand that ESL can't? WCS is blizzards show, they just produce it by the terms Blizzard set out. If people want to broadcast on non-twitch services, they need to go to Blizzard. ESL can't make the decision on Blizzards behalf.
But NASL can ? Because NASL did allow it. I'd really like to know if it had some consequences for NASL truthfully.
I don't know they NASL didn't request that they shut down the stream, but they might not have noticed it was on DM? ESL might just be more aware if how their stream is bein broadcast in EU. But that's not the point. If DM wants to broadcast WCS, blizzard are the decision makers as to which streaming platform is used.
Was a partnership with twitch in effect back then? I think that was starting only for WCS 2014. If there was not, it is clear why NASL did not give a shit about it.
On February 18 2014 07:46 Ishentar wrote: You basically explain us that you have good experience with Twitch, we believe you. You basically explain us that you have poor experience with DailyMotion, we believe you.
Can't you believe that we experience the opposite thing ? We aren't you and you aren't us.
Nobody said you were wrong. And nobody denied that not having a non-Twitch stream is a problem for affected people who may not be able to watch WCS because of it.
However there have been many attempts to refocus the topic on the actual issue, which is not Twitch vs DailyMotion (both have problems, for different people and different reasons), nor french ISPs, nor the financial stability of whatever companies.
This has been a call for pitchforks (on behalf of all french viewers), not for discussions. Not for affected people to manifest themselves (politely) so that the Powers That Be could have an idea of the importance of this issue, which may or may not end up being taken under consideration. Their decision.
If there's no french stream for WCS and it notably affects viewership, the PTB may decide to reevaluate their position. Or not. Or it may not impact viewership at all. Or they may not care. Who knows? How would pitchforks help in all this exactly?
The 'debate' should have ended with Carmac's post (or rather it shouldn't have started in the first place...)
Does anyone have numbers for the IEM viewership from France this past week-end? Was it abysmal? Did no one from France even tried watching the Twitch stream? Was Twitch unwatchable for nearly everyone? If I were to venture a guess, I'd say that there probably were quite a few french viewers watching most of it. Why would it be any different for WCS?
it was 0 since esl forbid them also to broadcast IEM. but if u look at the wcs america final french stream was second by a large margin.
now all this business is not about twitch or anything is just esl that want to get rid of one of their streaming conccurent. its like asking samsung if they want apple in the market its fucking stupid. now they found this twitch issue to cover their ass but it is an issue between esl and ogamingtv . NASL has no problem with ogamingtv because they dont see them as conccurent and they are right.
ogamingtv is whining for a good reason they have been forbidden to broadcast almost all big starcraft event last year . but did they just whinned? no! they put some great project with their small means like Nationwars which has been a huge sucess so far. Ogamingtv is the number one reason for the strength of french community. they manage tu fulfill one of the bigest show place in paris for ironsquid 2 who would have bet that on esport ? they develop strong link with the french barcraft meltdown and organized lots of french sc2 events by default not being able to broadcast the main ones. they made so much people discover and love sc2. now esl is glad to take those faithful viewers in their nest.
Ok so it's been ridiculous. Basically this discussion can be summed up :
1) French fighting for their wonderful broadcasting team
2) Other people don't give a shit so they blame French organisation.
And for the dailymotion vs Twitch thing I agree with SSVnormandy it seems to me that it is more an excuse than anything. And basically why a streamer that can choose between top quality stream( Dailymotion) and unwatchable stream (Twitch) should choose the unwatchable one to have close to 0 viewer with little income because twitch doesn't give as many money?
It's like having to choose between a subway sandwich and a 3 star restaurant. :'-( I miss their couch analysis so much please allow them to get back !!
On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative.
The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing.
And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU .
I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me....
I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag.
People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs.
Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money?
There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation.
Do you understand that ESL can't? WCS is blizzards show, they just produce it by the terms Blizzard set out. If people want to broadcast on non-twitch services, they need to go to Blizzard. ESL can't make the decision on Blizzards behalf.
But NASL can ? Because NASL did allow it. I'd really like to know if it had some consequences for NASL truthfully.
I don't know they NASL didn't request that they shut down the stream, but they might not have noticed it was on DM? ESL might just be more aware if how their stream is bein broadcast in EU. But that's not the point. If DM wants to broadcast WCS, blizzard are the decision makers as to which streaming platform is used.
ESL is way more professional then NASL in my subjective opinion. If ESL says "Use twitch" they will have a reason for it. Everyone else uses twitch, and let's face it, twitch is most of the time doing okayish in terms of quality and lags. It's not as bad as its reputation, seriously. I don't get what is so hard for ogaming in changing to Twitch for WCS only, afaik, they refuse to use twitch somehow. Well, then they don't get to cast! You can easily go for a twitch stream even as an organization. Then, you can start to talk about using Dailymotion, talking about it with Blizzard, ESL etc. in a more relaxed atmosphere.
But whatever, as long as neither the french poeple nor Blizzard nor ESL provides further information, this will be just a comment shitstorm raging on everything, so we should all just up and see what comes out. I do trust ESL, it looks to me as if the french guys are simply pissed because they may not use dailymotion.
On February 18 2014 16:40 SSVnormandy wrote: now all this business is not about twitch or anything is just esl that want to get rid of one of their streaming conccurent. its like asking samsung if they want apple in the market its fucking stupid. now they found this twitch issue to cover their ass but it is an issue between esl and ogamingtv . NASL has no problem with ogamingtv because they dont see them as conccurent and they are right.
ogamingtv is whining for a good reason they have been forbidden to broadcast almost all big starcraft event last year . but did they just whinned? no! they put some great project with their small means like Nationwars which has been a huge sucess so far. Ogamingtv is the number one reason for the strength of french community. they manage tu fulfill one of the bigest show place in paris for ironsquid 2 who would have bet that on esport ? they develop strong link with the french barcraft meltdown and organized lots of french sc2 events by default not being able to broadcast the main ones. they made so much people discover and love sc2. now esl is glad to take those faithful viewers in their nest.
It's not like ESL allows organization like TakeTV or BaseTradeTV to cast WCS rofl, you're just talking nuts.
On February 18 2014 17:11 klup wrote: Ok so it's been ridiculous. Basically this discussion can be summed up :
1) French fighting for their wonderful broadcasting team
2) Other people don't give a shit so they blame French organisation.
And for the dailymotion vs Twitch thing I agree with SSVnormandy it seems to me that it is more an excuse than anything. And basically why a streamer that can choose between top quality stream( Dailymotion) and unwatchable stream (Twitch) should choose the unwatchable one to have close to 0 viewer with little income because twitch doesn't give as many money?
It's like having to choose between a subway sandwich and a 3 star restaurant. :'-( I miss their couch analysis so much please allow them to get back !!
I still can't understand why so many people are so happy to jump in and defend the Blizz-twitch agreement, or twitch per se, or ESL, or any other company as the best thing in the world. Is every second TL accound a twitch, blizz or ESL employee or what? (If that were the case, it would actually be pretty cool because then everythign posted here surely gets heard at the right places ).
You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. The saddest thing is that many of the most vigorous twitch-blizz-ESL defenders here are not even French and thus are not affected by this in any way. I still don't understand whom are you trying to help exactly, but it's definitely not the French viewers.
On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote: I still can't understand why so many people are so happy to jump in and defend the Blizz-twitch agreement, or twitch per se, or ESL, or any other company as the best thing in the world. Is every second TL accound a twitch, blizz or ESL employee or what? (If that were the case, it would actually be pretty cool because then everythign posted here surely gets heard at the right places ).
You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. The saddest thing is that many of the most vigorous twitch-blizz-ESL defenders here are not even French and thus are not affected by this in any way. I still don't understand whom are you trying to help exactly, but it's definitely not the French viewers.
We are defending ESL because it's not justice to harass them while they aren't responsible for the current status. We said that DM should make a move with Blizzard to obtain a partnership, at least for french based viewership, but this suggestion is being ignored quite hard, people prefer to bash ESL for no reason.
On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote: I still can't understand why so many people are so happy to jump in and defend the Blizz-twitch agreement, or twitch per se, or ESL, or any other company as the best thing in the world. Is every second TL accound a twitch, blizz or ESL employee or what? (If that were the case, it would actually be pretty cool because then everythign posted here surely gets heard at the right places ).
You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. The saddest thing is that many of the most vigorous twitch-blizz-ESL defenders here are not even French and thus are not affected by this in any way. I still don't understand whom are you trying to help exactly, but it's definitely not the French viewers.
We are defending ESL because it's not justice to harass them while they aren't responsible for the current status. We said that DM should make a move with Blizzard to obtain a partnership, at least for french based viewership, but this suggestion is being ignored quite hard, people prefer to bash ESL for no reason.
But that is exactly what I am talking about. It is irrelevant who is responsible, this is not the final judgement, so assigment of guilt doesn't change anything. On the other hand, I find it hard to belive that ESL can't really do anything - maybe if they are pressured enough, they will be forced to try to push their other partners to dela with the situation.
Again, these are companies, not people. Using words like "harass" is not appropriate, we don't have to be careful around them not to hurt their feelings.
On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote: I still can't understand why so many people are so happy to jump in and defend the Blizz-twitch agreement, or twitch per se, or ESL, or any other company as the best thing in the world. Is every second TL accound a twitch, blizz or ESL employee or what? (If that were the case, it would actually be pretty cool because then everythign posted here surely gets heard at the right places ).
You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. The saddest thing is that many of the most vigorous twitch-blizz-ESL defenders here are not even French and thus are not affected by this in any way. I still don't understand whom are you trying to help exactly, but it's definitely not the French viewers.
We are defending ESL because it's not justice to harass them while they aren't responsible for the current status. We said that DM should make a move with Blizzard to obtain a partnership, at least for french based viewership, but this suggestion is being ignored quite hard, people prefer to bash ESL for no reason.
But that is exactly what I am talking about. It is irrelevant who is responsible, this is not the final judgement, so assigment of guilt doesn't change anything. On the other hand, I find it hard to belive that ESL can't really do anything - maybe if they are pressured enough, they will be forced to try to push their other partners to dela with the situation.
Again, these are companies, not people. Using words like "harass" is not appropriate, we don't have to be careful around them not to hurt their feelings.
Not sure what your definition of harass incorperates, but according to this dictionary, it incorperates:
to trouble, torment, or confuse by continual persistent attacks, questions, etc
And I second Faust's opinion. Not ESL's fault, so I don't think harassing them is right.
On February 18 2014 10:04 Maniak_ wrote: Does anyone have numbers for the IEM viewership from France this past week-end? Was it abysmal? Did no one from France even tried watching the Twitch stream? Was Twitch unwatchable for nearly everyone? If I were to venture a guess, I'd say that there probably were quite a few french viewers watching most of it. Why would it be any different for WCS?
it was 0 since esl forbid them also to broadcast IEM. but if u look at the wcs america final french stream was second by a large margin.
It may have been 0 from french streams, but I was asking about french *viewership*. Note the difference. You make it sound as if *no* french viewer is ever watching an english stream. What I'm wondering is how many are *actually* lost when there is no french stream. How many french are unable to understand an english stream, among viewers of a computer game, computer users where english is prevalent, with a minimum of education where english is the main second language far above anything else?
(as for french who do understand english but refuse to watch an english stream simply because it's not in french... frankly... who cares? it's their choice)
And most importantly, should ESL have to care about the lost viewers, when those would be viewers on a stream that brings nothing to them or their sponsors? (I know, that's not nice, but they're still a company, not a publically funded community service)
On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote: You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing.
We're not customers, we're viewers. This is free for us. We're potential customers for the sponsors and advertisers. The sponsors are closer to being the customers for Blizzard/ESL, and Blizzard the customer for ESL. We're entitled to *asking* to get a better product, and we're entitled to leave if we don't like what we see and nothing is done about it. They're entitled to do whatever the hell they want with their product. If they're fine with losing viewers, however many they are, what do you expect to do about it?
We're not their bosses, they're not our slaves and they don't have to do everything we want. Even if it was possible.
On February 18 2014 21:53 opisska wrote: On the other hand, I find it hard to belive that ESL can't really do anything - maybe if they are pressured enough, they will be forced to try to push their other partners to dela with the situation.
Again, these are companies, not people.
Yup, these are companies, not people. They deal in numbers. Sponsors react if they think something may impact, directly or not, their revenues. ESL&co react according to what their contracts, agreements, etc. allow them to do while bringing them enough revenue to make it viable. They won't ever please everyone since we're not living with unicorns. If locking everyone to Twitch ends up with more costs than gains, including potential costs brought to attention by politely telling them that you won't be able to watch because of this, changes will be made. Having a bunch of kids throwing crap at them because someone told them to, without knowing what's actually happening behind the scenes has little to no chance of accomplishing anything. And it shouldn't.
Again, no one is saying that it wouldn't be better to have a french-speaking stream available (well, no one *should* be saying it ). But if the different parties can't come to an agreement (which is between them), there is no french-speaking stream and it seriously affects viewership, added to polite community support by those affected, *this* may help move things along. Throwing blame around and acting like entitled little kids will not.
This ship has sailed for Round A, maybe once viewership numbers by country are in, something will change? Maybe later? Maybe next season? Maybe never? Maybe there are still actual discussions going on in the background and they will end up with an agreement without needing a global war on ESL? Who knows?
I don't mind ToD casting on his own but it feels kind of weird. But nevermind now they cancelled it. At least it could have profited to people in France that doesn't understand english well.
On February 18 2014 23:36 klup wrote: I don't mind ToD casting on his own but it feels kind of weird.
That made me curious (well the original version where you were saying that it'd be more fun with the usual french casters). If, clearly hypothetically speaking, ESL added their own french-speaking stream, casted by a french pro player, would you *still* be asking for the same thing? That would shift the issue from not having a french-speaking stream to not having a specific team of casters. Not exactly the same thing.
Then again, this is purely theoretical. As good as ToD is, it may be a bit much for a single person
On February 18 2014 10:04 Maniak_ wrote: Does anyone have numbers for the IEM viewership from France this past week-end? Was it abysmal? Did no one from France even tried watching the Twitch stream? Was Twitch unwatchable for nearly everyone? If I were to venture a guess, I'd say that there probably were quite a few french viewers watching most of it. Why would it be any different for WCS?
it was 0 since esl forbid them also to broadcast IEM. but if u look at the wcs america final french stream was second by a large margin.
It may have been 0 from french streams, but I was asking about french *viewership*. Note the difference. You make it sound as if *no* french viewer is ever watching an english stream. What I'm wondering is how many are *actually* lost when there is no french stream. How many french are unable to understand an english stream, among viewers of a computer game, computer users where english is prevalent, with a minimum of education where english is the main second language far above anything else?
(as for french who do understand english but refuse to watch an english stream simply because it's not in french... frankly... who cares? it's their choice)
And most importantly, should ESL have to care about the lost viewers, when those would be viewers on a stream that brings nothing to them or their sponsors? (I know, that's not nice, but they're still a company, not a publically funded community service)
On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote: You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing.
We're not customers, we're viewers. This is free for us. We're potential customers for the sponsors and advertisers. The sponsors are closer to being the customers for Blizzard/ESL, and Blizzard the customer for ESL. We're entitled to *asking* to get a better product, and we're entitled to leave if we don't like what we see and nothing is done about it. They're entitled to do whatever the hell they want with their product. If they're fine with losing viewers, however many they are, what do you expect to do about it?
We're not their bosses, they're not our slaves and they don't have to do everything we want. Even if it was possible.
On February 18 2014 21:53 opisska wrote: On the other hand, I find it hard to belive that ESL can't really do anything - maybe if they are pressured enough, they will be forced to try to push their other partners to dela with the situation.
Again, these are companies, not people.
Yup, these are companies, not people. They deal in numbers. Sponsors react if they think something may impact, directly or not, their revenues. ESL&co react according to what their contracts, agreements, etc. allow them to do while bringing them enough revenue to make it viable. They won't ever please everyone since we're not living with unicorns. If locking everyone to Twitch ends up with more costs than gains, including potential costs brought to attention by politely telling them that you won't be able to watch because of this, changes will be made. Having a bunch of kids throwing crap at them because someone told them to, without knowing what's actually happening behind the scenes has little to no chance of accomplishing anything. And it shouldn't.
Again, no one is saying that it wouldn't be better to have a french-speaking stream available (well, no one *should* be saying it ). But if the different parties can't come to an agreement (which is between them), there is no french-speaking stream and it seriously affects viewership, added to polite community support by those affected, *this* may help move things along. Throwing blame around and acting like entitled little kids will not.
This ship has sailed for Round A, maybe once viewership numbers by country are in, something will change? Maybe later? Maybe next season? Maybe never? Maybe there are still actual discussions going on in the background and they will end up with an agreement without needing a global war on ESL? Who knows?
I fully agree with everything you wrote. If you are French (as stated next to your username), you should know that such "drama" (for lack of a better word) are fairly regular in the French scene, sadly. I honestly think Millenium and o'gaming do a good job when they host a SC2 related show. It looks great and I understand it costs a lot and they need to get some money to compensate.
However, I do not watch many French streams (I barely watch any streams at all to be honest ^^) and I can live without it. I am sure that there are a lot of people who would prefer to watch those streams over English speaking ones, but a they would watch English streams if there is no alternative.(even though Twitch lags a lot for me, really, and it s annoying, and I think it s the same for a lot of us). Attacking Blizzard/ESL is useless and actually counterproductive. This is something between the French streams and the WCS EU organisation, and the community should not get involved. As you said, ESL does not owe anything to anybody. I hope this gets sorted out in a professional manner and not in a whining fest!
On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote: I still can't understand why so many people are so happy to jump in and defend the Blizz-twitch agreement, or twitch per se, or ESL, or any other company as the best thing in the world. Is every second TL accound a twitch, blizz or ESL employee or what? (If that were the case, it would actually be pretty cool because then everythign posted here surely gets heard at the right places ).
You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. The saddest thing is that many of the most vigorous twitch-blizz-ESL defenders here are not even French and thus are not affected by this in any way. I still don't understand whom are you trying to help exactly, but it's definitely not the French viewers.
You should understand how business works. People that 'jump in' and defend ESL understand that the french community is asking ESL/Blizzard to probably break a contract in which Twitch payed Blizzard to have the rights and be the single platform the tournament is broadcasted on.
If France/the french community has contracts with Dailymotion etc that prevent them from streaming on twitch - why ask others to break a contract if you are not willing to do so?
Business and especially a very young and not rich business like esports needs to stick to their contracts. While I agree that it would be a shame if we have no French cast, it sure would be a shame to see Blizzard/Twitch break a contract. Pitchforking towards ESL and Blizzard does nothing but harm. Thats why people defend them.
On February 18 2014 23:47 WGT-Baal wrote:As you said, ESL does not owe anything to anybody.
Right, aside from all the prize pools from every IEM from this year ^^ ... ESL accounting division has to be the worst in whole Germany.
Still no proof of Twitch signing an exclusive contract with Blizzard this year ... no announcement in their blog despite twitch having done so in their blog last year.
On February 18 2014 23:47 WGT-Baal wrote: I fully agree with everything you wrote. If you are French (as stated next to your username), you should know that such "drama" (for lack of a better word) are fairly regular in the French scene, sadly.
Yup and yup. In two hours I'll be one of the evil frenchmen who betrays his country by watching the english ESL stream. And though, being a bad french, I don't consider my case as being applicable to everyone else, I highly doubt there will only be 1 viewer from France on this stream, no matter how much they whine about it After all, whining is pretty much a national sport over here
Attacking Blizzard/ESL is useless and actually counterproductive. This is something between the French streams and the WCS EU organisation, and the community should not get involved. As you said, ESL does not owe anything to anybody. I hope this gets sorted out in a professional manner and not in a whining fest!
I agree the bullying on ESL was bad and I apologize, But If we do nothing, the same as last year will happens which mean absolutely nothing.
A lot of people have been disapointed by how much OgamingTv has been invisible last year barely surviving with some minors events. Honestly I enjoyed so much when they were able to commentate the WCS final season 3 (Thanks NASL!) it was such a pleasure. Also note that this stream was by a large margin the second one on WCS final season 3 so those guys brings massive viewership in France.
So if nothing happens now , what happens next? it's status quo and WCSeu use ToD as a replacement caster for the whole season?
And then what? OgamingTv will probably stop casting Sc2 and concentrate on LoL/Dota/othergames where they have some kind of support. No more NationWars, No more Ironsquid ? Is that what we want?
I am just mad at this situation because it hurts SC2 esport above all.
Edit : I understand business is business kind of argument but it is really disapointing to see people fighting for their share of the pie when there is so little to share. They should all do anything to expand and those fight doesn't help that at all.
On February 18 2014 23:47 WGT-Baal wrote:As you said, ESL does not owe anything to anybody.
Right, aside from all the prize pools from every IEM from this year ^^ ... ESL accounting division has to be the worst in whole Germany.
Still no proof of Twitch signing an exclusive contract with Blizzard this year ... no announcement in their blog despite twitch having done so in their blog last year.
And, you know, Powered by Twitch on every Blizzard page about WCS.
Not that there's any need for proof. Officially it's been stated the organisations in question have not been denied. They just didn't like the terms. So that initial claim was false. How about you try to prove that wrong instead of falling for their pitchfork drama ploy?
On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote: I still can't understand why so many people are so happy to jump in and defend the Blizz-twitch agreement, or twitch per se, or ESL, or any other company as the best thing in the world. Is every second TL accound a twitch, blizz or ESL employee or what? (If that were the case, it would actually be pretty cool because then everythign posted here surely gets heard at the right places ).
You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. The saddest thing is that many of the most vigorous twitch-blizz-ESL defenders here are not even French and thus are not affected by this in any way. I still don't understand whom are you trying to help exactly, but it's definitely not the French viewers.
Lol, we are the fucking customers? Really? That is your argument? What a sense of entitlement.
Like you said, these are for-profit companies. Let's assume blizzard has deal with twitch that pays them X amount. Guess what happens when Blizzard breaks the deal? They don't get paid, and that in turn hurts WCS and ESL and other SC2 tournaments. That is why we are defending them, because we can see the issues ahead. Unlike the posters here who think they are entitled to whatever they want because they are customers.
Do you go to McDonalds and ask them to serve you Burger King's food items? Can you have the Super Bowl or Olympics be broadcasted by any TV station? You should, because you are the fucking customer, rofl!
Blizzard announced Twitch as it's WCS partner, if you want to watch it you should watch through twitch. EZ.
Don't have a clue why these French medium production teams can't just come to terms with that. If a show is made by a company and sells it to a network, that's that network and that network alone's option to air it.
If ITV started airing Top Gear while Top Gear was in contract with the BBC still, BBC would kick up a shit storm and rightly so.
EDIT: Until Blizzard says otherwise, ESL is within its rights to do this IMO
On February 19 2014 00:04 klup wrote: I am just mad at this situation because it hurts SC2 esport above all.
That's understandable, but still, patience is going to be required, not pitchforks. ESL is clearly already aware of the issue, they will see the viewership numbers, the discussions with O'Gaming & co are quite certainly still ongoing, let's just wait a bit to see what happens.
It may take a season, a whole year, it may never change, but screaming and shouting is not going to help. If anything it will make matters worse.
In the end, this 'simply' requires agreements/contracts between companies. Pitchforks won't have any (positive) impact on this. What we *can* do is showing (via numbers) / telling (via twitter/facebook/whatever, but *politely*) that there is an audience that will miss out on WCS because of this. That's our part in this. Not telling companies what to do and how to manage their budget.
Vote with your wallet as they say. Your eyes in this case. And be prepared for the possibility that, not matter how you may hate to hear it, you *may* be deemed as a negligible amount. It's a numbers game.
Makes me think of Friends. "Welcome to the real world. It sucks. You're gonna love it." (or not. you know. whatever )
On February 19 2014 00:04 klup wrote: I am just mad at this situation because it hurts SC2 esport above all.
That's understandable, but still, patience is going to be required, not pitchforks. ESL is clearly already aware of the issue, they will see the viewership numbers, the discussions with O'Gaming & co are quite certainly still ongoing, let's just wait a bit to see what happens.
It may take a season, a whole year, it may never change, but screaming and shouting is not going to help. If anything it will make matters worse.
In the end, this 'simply' requires agreements/contracts between companies. Pitchforks won't have any (positive) impact on this. What we *can* do is showing (via numbers) / telling (via twitter/facebook/whatever, but *politely*) that there is an audience that will miss out on WCS because of this. That's our part in this. Not telling companies what to do and how to manage their budget.
Bringing the subject on the table in the community can put pressure on those companies because putting this on the public place is dommaging the image of both of the parts. In this case I suppose Ogamingtv did the move because they have nothing to loose anymore. It's the same things as consumers association that put pressure on companies about certain issues on their products. I agree with have to throw the Pitchforks away and try to express our voice more diplomatically.
TL forums is the n°1 SC2 community forum so it's a good mean to rise the attention on this matter.
People comparing this situation to BBC and other random TV channel tend to forget that when a channel is not in a good disposition to broadcast some event in a specific country because the channel has no audience in it, what they usually do is make a contract with local channel to diffuse the show. The situation is not so much different here imo.
On February 19 2014 00:26 klup wrote: Bringing the subject on the table in the community can put pressure on those companies because putting this on the public place is dommaging the image of both of the parts. It's the same things as consumers association that put pressure on companies about certain issues on their products.
I have no problem whatsoever with the principle of bringing the subject to the public, asking affected (or supporting) people to email/tweet at Blizzard/ESL to show them there is a relevant audience that would like something to be done.
I have a problem when the subject is brought to the public's attention while manipulating and hiding information, speaking on behalf of "everyone" and basically *asking* for pitchforks. Hence two topics, more than 20 pages of drama, shouting, conspiration theories, finger pointing and so on. No idea of the size of it on Reddit, my drama needs are not high enough to go there that often
The matter has been brought up to attention, mission accomplished. Badly accomplished though. It may take some effort to refocus it in a way that could actually be useful. Putting pressure on the authorities works in France (another national sport), it can work with sponsors, but it's not an universal solution to get what we want with anyone. Try that at work with your boss and see if it works (I did, it doesn't )
What about saying it's been tried, hasn't worked and it's time to try something else?
On February 19 2014 00:26 klup wrote: People comparing this situation to BBC and other random TV channel tend to forget that when a channel is not in a good disposition to broadcast some event in a specific country because the channel has no audience in it, what they usually do is make a contract with local channel to diffuse the show. The situation is not so much different here imo.
And maybe that's what will end up happening. Or contracting the french casters but on a stream produced by ESL? Who knows. That's between them. Just show them that there are people interested in this who would appreciate the efforts made to make it possible. While understanding that it may not. * Demanding* that they do what they're told, ignoring any contract considerations on their side (which they don't have to share), is not exactly the same way to go about it
On February 19 2014 00:05 schimmetje wrote: And, you know, Powered by Twitch on every Blizzard page about WCS.
Not that there's any need for proof. Officially it's been stated the organisations in question have not been denied. They just didn't like the terms. So that initial claim was false. How about you try to prove that wrong instead of falling for their pitchfork drama ploy?
Putting pressure on the authorities works in France (another national sport), it can work with sponsors, but it's not an universal solution to get what we want with anyone. Try that at work with your boss and see if it works (I did, it doesn't )
Putting pressure on companies by bringing something public is much more efficient in the US than in France because of the strength of their consumer association and their class action ability. But yes we are the world champion of Putting pressure on government. At least it's one thing that we are not bad at :D .
Anyway things seems to move at least since we saw ToD annouced as casting replacement and finally cancelled so don't know what happened at ESL but this is surely related to this issue. Maybe they thought bringing ToD as replacement would be seen as a gigantic " we don't give a fuck" so they finally retracted at last moment.
On February 19 2014 00:59 klup wrote:Anyway things seems to move at least since we saw ToD annouced as casting replacement and finally cancelled so don't know what happened at ESL but this is surely related to this issue. Maybe they thought bringing ToD as replacement would be seen as a gigantic " we don't give a fuck" so they finally retracted at last moment.
I'd have thought it was because ToD solo casting for however many hours it will take would be a bit hard But at least it shows that there are attempts to do something.
The ESL guys may be a bunch of corporate assholes who don't care about anything, but then again, when has ESL given the impression that they don't care? And if they *do* care and it still can't be done, maybe there are factors at play that we don't know about and can't do anything about except waiting for them to find a way?
What about giving them a chance and encouraging them to do so by showing how many people would appreciate it instead of bitching at them without *actually* knowing why?
Alll in all, Ogaming is fucked because they lost the money by not streaming Twitch (even if it is less than DM) and ESL win the money with a French stream now. Heh.
The ESL guys may be a bunch of corporate assholes who don't care about anything, but then again, when has ESL given the impression that they don't care? And if they *do* care and it still can't be done, maybe there are factors at play that we don't know about and can't do anything about except waiting for them to find a way?
I wasn't mean in anyways. I just thought that ESL might have cancelled ToD replacement to not put more oil on top of the fire that's all. Sorry if you thought I was aggressive on that should have use better words.
ESL has done wonderful jobs with all their show so far so I support them as I support every Esport company that is contributiong to the emergence of Esport. I just want an happy ending solution to this because I care about Esport and I really think that if OgamingTv is going down it will be very bad for all of us (not only the french).
I just don't understand the love that all these companies have for Twitch. It's a terrible streaming plaform, one of the worst out there. And yet everyone seems to be really eager to go to bed with them, so to speak. Is Twitch secretly funded by some megacorporation that shells out insane sums for exclusivity contracts? Guess we'll never know.
On February 19 2014 01:15 klup wrote: I wasn't mean in anyways. I just thought that ESL might have cancelled ToD replacement to not put more oil on top of the fire that's all. Sorry if you thought I was aggressive on that should have use better words.
Not at all, it wasn't directed at you. It was regarding all the crap that's been thrown their way over both topics
On February 19 2014 01:15 klup wrote: ESL has done wonderful jobs with all their show so far so I support them as I support every Esport company that is contributiong to the emergence of Esport. I just want an happy ending solution to this because I care about Esport
And I think *that* is something everyone can agree on
On February 19 2014 01:15 klup wrote: and I really think that if OgamingTv is going down it will be very bad for all of us (not only the french).
It would be bad. Very bad for the entire world may be overstating it a bit, and they did make themselves quite a bit of bad publicity with the way they brought this up in public, but obviously, a company going down is never good (well... rarely ) Then again, from what I understand, SC2 is far from being their main revenue source and they should be fine anyway. And in the end, as bad as the situation may be (and we don't know anything about it), this as no impact whatsoever on the matter at hand. ESL cannot and should not be held accountable for the financial stability of OGaming. Bad things happen even to good people.
On February 19 2014 01:17 sigm wrote: I just don't understand the love that all these companies have for Twitch. It's a terrible streaming plaform, one of the worst out there. And yet everyone seems to be really eager to go to bed with them, so to speak. Is Twitch secretly funded by some megacorporation that shells out insane sums for exclusivity contracts? Guess we'll never know.
No, its was founded out of Justin.tv, one of the early streaming platforms. And all the streaming platforms suck in different regions. Shockingly, it is difficult to broadcast perfectly across the entire globe at the same time.
On February 18 2014 23:47 WGT-Baal wrote:As you said, ESL does not owe anything to anybody.
Right, aside from all the prize pools from every IEM from this year ^^ ... ESL accounting division has to be the worst in whole Germany.
Still no proof of Twitch signing an exclusive contract with Blizzard this year ... no announcement in their blog despite twitch having done so in their blog last year.
Yes, but you know what I meant by my sentence... All in all I hope there will be an agreement, and I really enjoy what Ogaming TV s been doing and it would be a shame if they stopped SC2. But it is up to them to fix those things. This is all I meant.
On February 19 2014 01:17 sigm wrote: I just don't understand the love that all these companies have for Twitch. It's a terrible streaming plaform, one of the worst out there. And yet everyone seems to be really eager to go to bed with them, so to speak. Is Twitch secretly funded by some megacorporation that shells out insane sums for exclusivity contracts? Guess we'll never know.
This may shock you, but Twitch works differently in different places. Here in the US, I've almost never had any problems with Twitch at all and have always found it to be much better than competing platforms like own3d, Ustream, Dailymotion, whatever random shit MLG used to use, etc.
I think that we are experiencing the issue of being a fan of a sport which is owned by a company. For the sake of esport, politics will have to interfere at some point (in like a few years). Just like the Kespa/Blizzard clash in Korea.
I do not understand why the debate is about twitch and dailymotion.
Today, I know money is very important in our mind and in our society but I guess we have to think to other things about this debate than money.
We - from Blizzard to TL community through O'Gaming - are all fans of a wonderful videogame that is not the first one anymore and is only the 6th in the list of most viewed games. So we all want Blizzard&ESL do their best to promote our game and we want our game to be seen, followed and liked to keep our pro gamers and good shows.
On the one hand, with all the tournaments, shows, visibility they gave to Starcraft II, O'Gaming and Millenium have to be respected. Indeed, they attracted a lot of people in the game and no one is able to create the same atmosphere as the O'Gaming's sofa or YoGo's commentaries. People look more Starcraft II in France than other countries thanks to these organizations.
On the other hand, the French scene is missing the WCS. Yesterday, there was no French stream. I even saw an Italian one popped out... I think Blizzard, ESL and the TL community do not want to see no French stream. It could trigger lots of thing in our fragile scene and no one wants too see SC2 disappear in our scene. Please let's be careful with the implications of "no stream of WCS" for the French scene.
My second point is about "professionalism". What do people want to see? What do you want to see? Do you wanna see concerts in shows like in Ironsquid or do you wanna see 2 average casters in their room casting WCS? In facebook, OGTV reached thousands of like supporting them because people want to watch big shows. They like the commentaries of Pomf&Thud, they like the sofa, the analysis, the break when they add a value to the stream.
We all want to help eSport and help it to become professionnal. O'gaming is really important for the whole scene, it helps players to be famous, it helps people to love SC2 and we have to help firms to become more and more professionnal by giving them the opportunity to stream the best competition.
With the labour cost in France, it's impossible to get a professionnal TV with twitch. The partnership between Millenium, aAa and O'Gaming shows it: no firm wants to take the risk of streaming it on twitch even if it is the main event of SC2. Please let's consider it: no one wants to stream WCS on twitch today because you lose money !
Two questions remains:
1) Is no French stream respectful for this scene which gave a lot to SC2 and reached some records in terms of "non-speaking streams"?
On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: I do not understand why the debate is about twitch and dailymotion.
Today, I know money is very important in our mind and in our society but I guess we have to think to other things about this debate than money.
We - from Blizzard to TL community through O'Gaming - are all fans of a wonderful videogame that is not the first one anymore and is only the 6th in the list of most viewed games. So we all want Blizzard&ESL do their best to promote our game and we want our game to be seen, followed and liked to keep our pro gamers and good shows.
On the one hand, with all the tournaments, shows, visibility they gave to Starcraft II, O'Gaming and Millenium have to be respected. Indeed, they attracted a lot of people in the game and no one is able to create the same atmosphere as the O'Gaming's sofa or YoGo's commentaries. People look more Starcraft II in France than other countries thanks to these organizations.
On the other hand, the French scene is missing the WCS. Yesterday, there was no French stream. I even saw an Italian one popped out... I think Blizzard, ESL and the TL community do not want to see no French stream. It could trigger lots of thing in our fragile scene and no one wants too see SC2 disappear in our scene. Please let's be careful with the implications of "no stream of WCS" for the French scene.
My second point is about "professionalism". What do people want to see? What do you want to see? Do you wanna see concerts in shows like in Ironsquid or do you wanna see 2 average casters in their room casting WCS? In facebook, OGTV reached thousands of like supporting them because people want to watch big shows. They like the commentaries of Pomf&Thud, they like the sofa, the analysis, the break when they add a value to the stream.
We all want to help eSport and help it to become professionnal. O'gaming is really important for the whole scene, it helps players to be famous, it helps people to love SC2 and we have to help firms to become more and more professionnal by giving them the opportunity to stream the best competition.
With the labour cost in France, it's impossible to get a professionnal TV with twitch. The partnership between Millenium, aAa and O'Gaming shows it: no firm wants to take the risk of streaming it on twitch even if it is the main event of SC2. Please let's consider it: no one wants to stream WCS on twitch today because you lose money !
Two questions remains:
1) Is no French stream respectful for this scene which gave a lot to SC2 and reached some records in terms of "non-speaking streams"?
2) Do you want professional streams?
I agree with all your saying. The fact that Millenium and OgamingTv made a partnership really force ESL to somehow deal with them. There is no other alternative for a professional French stream for WCS.
We will see what happen next cast on Thursday. Hope they will find an arrangement of some sort. I really think the survival of the SC2 Ogamingtv part is at stake here. Because they will never survive if they can't broadcast any major event this year again. They won't survive just with Nation Wars and an hypothetical Ironsquid 3
1) They can stream on Twitch, they already did it a lot of time. 2) The medium they use won't change the professionalism of the casting AFAIK, it only requests to enter a different live-key in OBS.
The Italian stream was in Twitch. Every country streams on twitch and I doubt France gains less per ad than Romanian, Polish or Italian streams.
Faust, you should take into account that if the activity were profitable on twitch, Millenium, aAa and O'Gaming would compete to get the stream. But it's not.
But with labour costs - the higher in Europe - it's impossible to stream on twitch and make a professionnal stream. Sure, they can stream from their room, but is it the sense of the story? Do you wanna see stream becoming more and more unprofessionnal? Is it the story you wanna write for eSports?
I never heard about Twitch not being viable, just DM being more profitable. Anyway, even if Twitch wasn't viable -and I really doubt it-, it's still a better option than nothing at all right?
Btw, SC2 is by no means at the 6th place in streamviews. Hell, We even got 1st in twitch views with the IEM with there were LSC running. It's not because there is TwitchPlaysPokemon which is super popular that sc2 is overthrown from its eternal 3rd place behind LoL and DotA2. Hell, SC2 is more and more popular recently, reaching almost 100k during the IEM when JD played.
No it's not a better option if you lose money... or if you only are able to provide a bad-quality show because it could hurt your image (It would be a huge non sense: you can stream little tournament like UnderDogs on your studio, with the sofa, etc. and then you would stream the main SC2 event from your room? Public would think "WTF???") ... No it's not a better option than nothing in France. You never heard it because O'Gaming and Millenium were in negotiation with ESL. Now, thanks to this topic, you should know that French professionnal casters would lose money if they stream professionnally with twitch.
PS: Whoaaaa Dude, are you telling people that SC2 got more views than League of Legends & LCS? HA HA HA
All I read was Ogaming lying saying ESL forbid them to stream WCS. And I'm pretty sure french people are more willing to watch a stream with a lesser quality (even if this word means nothing when 2 guys say BS about a game that they don't understand on a couch) than watching nothing at all.
Edit : Yes they did beat LoL during the semi-finals. You can laugh as much as you want, it is true.
If Twitch would actually work reliably i'd see ESl's Point.
But it doesn't, its like a lottery if twitch will be watchable or not... Whatever they did to make it work for TI3, they seemed to have reverted it the day TI3 ended....
I also got some minor issues with Dailymotion, but WAY less. Own3d worked perfect for me and so does the MLG Player... Twitch should just get their shit together.
On February 19 2014 18:15 Faust852 wrote: I never heard about Twitch not being viable, just DM being more profitable. Anyway, even if Twitch wasn't viable -and I really doubt it-, it's still a better option than nothing at all right?
Btw, SC2 is by no means at the 6th place in streamviews. Hell, We even got 1st in twitch views with the IEM with there were LSC running. It's not because there is TwitchPlaysPokemon which is super popular that sc2 is overthrown from its eternal 3rd place behind LoL and DotA2. Hell, SC2 is more and more popular recently, reaching almost 100k during the IEM when JD played.
Then you didn't read correctly the thread. On numerous occasions we reminded people that twitch is very underdeveloped here, streams often show no ads at all cause there is no contract with advertising companies. No ads, no revenues, no sustainability. Even Lwl quote said they tried to stream on twitch at first but lost too much money. Plus they probably ALSO have an exclusivity contract with DM in order to get the most revenue possible out of it. (Just supposing)
On February 19 2014 20:29 iknowthetrue wrote: @Faust852
Do not take your case to a general, free for you to watch a stream of shit. I prefer to watch a stream of high quality.
I don't care about french stream, but do you prefere watching a stream of a lesser quality, or don't watch anything at all ?
Don't watch at all because they can't afford to stream on Twitch. If they stream on it, they will close in one year.
There is no "afford" here. It cost nothing to Ogaming to stream except time. They don't invest anything. They will just earn less money with ads, but that's all.
Wait isn't GSL being streamed on GOMs Korean plattform, their mobile app and afreeca? Kinda funny how it's fine in Korea to use more than the official partner twich, while in Europe using dailymotion is a big deal?
On February 19 2014 20:29 iknowthetrue wrote: @Faust852
Do not take your case to a general, free for you to watch a stream of shit. I prefer to watch a stream of high quality.
I don't care about french stream, but do you prefere watching a stream of a lesser quality, or don't watch anything at all ?
Don't watch at all because they can't afford to stream on Twitch. If they stream on it, they will close in one year.
There is no "afford" here. It cost nothing to Ogaming to stream except time. They don't invest anything. They will just earn less money with ads, but that's all.
Yeah sure it costs nothing to have a studio and full time employees. Ogaming is not your bedroom streamer...
On February 19 2014 20:29 iknowthetrue wrote: @Faust852
Do not take your case to a general, free for you to watch a stream of shit. I prefer to watch a stream of high quality.
I don't care about french stream, but do you prefere watching a stream of a lesser quality, or don't watch anything at all ?
Don't watch at all because they can't afford to stream on Twitch. If they stream on it, they will close in one year.
There is no "afford" here. It cost nothing to Ogaming to stream except time. They don't invest anything. They will just earn less money with ads, but that's all.
So all the people working on a stream will do it for free? Doing a stream in a studio is more expensive than you think.
On February 19 2014 20:29 iknowthetrue wrote: @Faust852
Do not take your case to a general, free for you to watch a stream of shit. I prefer to watch a stream of high quality.
I don't care about french stream, but do you prefere watching a stream of a lesser quality, or don't watch anything at all ?
Don't watch at all because they can't afford to stream on Twitch. If they stream on it, they will close in one year.
There is no "afford" here. It cost nothing to Ogaming to stream except time. They don't invest anything. They will just earn less money with ads, but that's all.
For your concern when your a company , time is money, what they can't afford is the salary of people that cast. If they work 2-3 hours for almost no income to share between all the people involved then the company will sunk. They also have to payback the investment they made into all their devices.
On February 19 2014 21:16 Lorch wrote: Wait isn't GSL being streamed on GOMs Korean plattform, their mobile app and afreeca? Kinda funny how it's fine in Korea to use more than the official partner twich, while in Europe using dailymotion is a big deal?
I think they recently switched to twitch.tv. I don't know if some of the others means of diffusion remains though.
Now they have a studio and full time employees and absolutely no income from WCS. What they have are infrastructures and employees, whether they stream or not, these are fix expenses. Better streaming for low income then nothing at all, at least the time to find an agreement.
On February 19 2014 21:23 Faust852 wrote: Now they have a studio and full time employee and absolutely no income from WCS. What they have are infrastructures and employees, whether they stream or not, these are fix expense. Better streaming for low income then nothing at all, at least to time to find an agreement.
Last 9 months were already spend trying to find an agreement, which has still not been found. Will you continue to make statements without thinking them through or just reading the thread beforehand ? Cause if yes, no need to continue posting. I'd loooove for Totalbiscuit to look at your two posts about streamers, I'd get a good laugh seeing his face :-D
edit : the money they could win would be used not only to pay for infrastructures and streamers, to reimburse loans, to prove to investors they are sustainable, to gain exposure and offer the community more good quality shows like Iron Squid or Nation Wars, etc, etc, etc... to *grow* and not die a slow death. Please, think for a second.
On February 19 2014 21:16 Lorch wrote: Wait isn't GSL being streamed on GOMs Korean plattform, their mobile app and afreeca? Kinda funny how it's fine in Korea to use more than the official partner twich, while in Europe using dailymotion is a big deal?
I think they recently switched to twitch.tv. I don't know if some of the others means of diffusion remains though.
The English stream did, but since twitch is super laggy for Koreans (most of the time) the Korean stream is still not on twitch afaik.
On February 19 2014 21:23 Faust852 wrote: Now they have a studio and full time employee and absolutely no income from WCS. What they have are infrastructures and employees, whether they stream or not, these are fix expense. Better streaming for low income then nothing at all, at least to time to find an agreement.
Last 9 months were already spend trying to find an agreement, which has still not been found. Will you continue to make statements without thinking them through or just reading the thread beforehand ? Cause if yes, no need to continue posting. I'd loooove for Totalbiscuit to look at your two posts about streamers, I'd get a good laugh seeing his face :-D
edit : the money they could win would be used not only to pay for infrastructures and streamers, to reimburse loans, to prove to investors they are sustainable, to gain exposure and offer the community more good quality shows like Iron Squid or Nation Wars, etc, etc, etc... to *grow* and not die a slow death. Please, think for a second.
These are not "fixed expenses". lol.
C'mon, 9 months and they didn't even try too reach Blizzard? It's not because they send 1 or 2 emails in the 9 months prior WCS that I can that "negotiations". Btw, I post if I want to. For the TB argument, i'm pretty sure TB would do what can sustain him at least for the time it takes to find something else to do.
I never stated we should stay in the statu quo, but at least streaming for a bit with Twitch, letting at least a bunch french people watching WCS, and getting a small income.
On February 19 2014 21:16 Lorch wrote: Wait isn't GSL being streamed on GOMs Korean plattform, their mobile app and afreeca? Kinda funny how it's fine in Korea to use more than the official partner twich, while in Europe using dailymotion is a big deal?
On February 19 2014 21:16 Lorch wrote: Wait isn't GSL being streamed on GOMs Korean plattform, their mobile app and afreeca? Kinda funny how it's fine in Korea to use more than the official partner twich, while in Europe using dailymotion is a big deal?
On February 19 2014 21:23 Faust852 wrote: Now they have a studio and full time employee and absolutely no income from WCS. What they have are infrastructures and employees, whether they stream or not, these are fix expense. Better streaming for low income then nothing at all, at least to time to find an agreement.
Last 9 months were already spend trying to find an agreement, which has still not been found. Will you continue to make statements without thinking them through or just reading the thread beforehand ? Cause if yes, no need to continue posting. I'd loooove for Totalbiscuit to look at your two posts about streamers, I'd get a good laugh seeing his face :-D
edit : the money they could win would be used not only to pay for infrastructures and streamers, to reimburse loans, to prove to investors they are sustainable, to gain exposure and offer the community more good quality shows like Iron Squid or Nation Wars, etc, etc, etc... to *grow* and not die a slow death. Please, think for a second.
These are not "fixed expenses". lol.
C'mon, 9 months and they didn't even try too reach Blizzard? It's not because they send 1 or 2 emails in the 9 months prior WCS that I can that "negotiations". Btw, I post if I want to.
They went to Versailles to meet Blizzard several times. They are close to Blizzard, they talk with them everyday.
On February 19 2014 21:16 Lorch wrote: Wait isn't GSL being streamed on GOMs Korean plattform, their mobile app and afreeca? Kinda funny how it's fine in Korea to use more than the official partner twich, while in Europe using dailymotion is a big deal?
GOM is a partner of Blizzard, Dailymotion isn't.
And afreeca, iOS and Android are too?
I don't know about them, are you sure they stream on Afreeca ? Never heard about it, might be a restream too. If you can provide me an official Afreeca stream of WCS? I'll believe you for this one.
What about iOS and Android? I don't get it. Afreeca app on smartphone or GOMexp on mobile?
On February 19 2014 21:23 Faust852 wrote: Now they have a studio and full time employee and absolutely no income from WCS. What they have are infrastructures and employees, whether they stream or not, these are fix expense. Better streaming for low income then nothing at all, at least to time to find an agreement.
Last 9 months were already spend trying to find an agreement, which has still not been found. Will you continue to make statements without thinking them through or just reading the thread beforehand ? Cause if yes, no need to continue posting. I'd loooove for Totalbiscuit to look at your two posts about streamers, I'd get a good laugh seeing his face :-D
edit : the money they could win would be used not only to pay for infrastructures and streamers, to reimburse loans, to prove to investors they are sustainable, to gain exposure and offer the community more good quality shows like Iron Squid or Nation Wars, etc, etc, etc... to *grow* and not die a slow death. Please, think for a second.
These are not "fixed expenses". lol.
C'mon, 9 months and they didn't even try too reach Blizzard? It's not because they send 1 or 2 emails in the 9 months prior WCS that I can that "negotiations". Btw, I post if I want to.
They went to Versailles to meet Blizzard several times. They are close to Blizzard, they talk with them everyday.
So if Blizzard said no, there nothing to talk about, France is doomed and that's it.
On February 19 2014 21:16 Lorch wrote: Wait isn't GSL being streamed on GOMs Korean plattform, their mobile app and afreeca? Kinda funny how it's fine in Korea to use more than the official partner twich, while in Europe using dailymotion is a big deal?
GOM is a partner of Blizzard, Dailymotion isn't.
And afreeca, iOS and Android are too?
I don't know about them, are you sure they stream on Afreeca ? Never heard about it, might be a restream too. If you can provide me an official Afreeca stream of WCS? I'll believe you for this one.
What about iOS and Android? I don't get it. Afreeca app on smartphone or GOMexp on mobile?
GOMexp app that you can use to watch live streams (even as a foreigner). Given that I'm not in Korea or using a VPN and can't read Korean properly I actually can't provide you with much, besides the fact that the little banner under the casters at gom says Afreeca for the Korean stream.
On February 19 2014 21:16 Lorch wrote: Wait isn't GSL being streamed on GOMs Korean plattform, their mobile app and afreeca? Kinda funny how it's fine in Korea to use more than the official partner twich, while in Europe using dailymotion is a big deal?
GOM is a partner of Blizzard, Dailymotion isn't.
And afreeca, iOS and Android are too?
I don't know about them, are you sure they stream on Afreeca ? Never heard about it, might be a restream too. If you can provide me an official Afreeca stream of WCS? I'll believe you for this one.
What about iOS and Android? I don't get it. Afreeca app on smartphone or GOMexp on mobile?
GOMexp app that you can use to watch live streams (even as a foreigner). Given that I'm not in Korea or using a VPN and can't read Korean properly I actually can't provide you with much, besides the fact that the little banner under the casters at gom says Afreeca for the Korean stream.
I don't see any problem about the GOMexp app, mobile or not, they are still partner with WCS so they can stream on it.
Ok, I just look at Afreeca, it seems that they are all restream, there are a shit tons of them tho.
On February 19 2014 21:23 Faust852 wrote: Now they have a studio and full time employee and absolutely no income from WCS. What they have are infrastructures and employees, whether they stream or not, these are fix expense. Better streaming for low income then nothing at all, at least to time to find an agreement.
Last 9 months were already spend trying to find an agreement, which has still not been found. Will you continue to make statements without thinking them through or just reading the thread beforehand ? Cause if yes, no need to continue posting. I'd loooove for Totalbiscuit to look at your two posts about streamers, I'd get a good laugh seeing his face :-D
edit : the money they could win would be used not only to pay for infrastructures and streamers, to reimburse loans, to prove to investors they are sustainable, to gain exposure and offer the community more good quality shows like Iron Squid or Nation Wars, etc, etc, etc... to *grow* and not die a slow death. Please, think for a second.
These are not "fixed expenses". lol.
C'mon, 9 months and they didn't even try too reach Blizzard? It's not because they send 1 or 2 emails in the 9 months prior WCS that I can that "negotiations". Btw, I post if I want to.
They went to Versailles to meet Blizzard several times. They are close to Blizzard, they talk with them everyday.
So if Blizzard said no, there nothing to talk about, France is doomed and that's it.
No, these French casters who want to stream Blizzard's tournament over another platform will have to find something else to do with their time. I know we like internet drama, but doomed, please..
On February 19 2014 21:23 Faust852 wrote: Now they have a studio and full time employee and absolutely no income from WCS. What they have are infrastructures and employees, whether they stream or not, these are fix expense. Better streaming for low income then nothing at all, at least to time to find an agreement.
Last 9 months were already spend trying to find an agreement, which has still not been found. Will you continue to make statements without thinking them through or just reading the thread beforehand ? Cause if yes, no need to continue posting. I'd loooove for Totalbiscuit to look at your two posts about streamers, I'd get a good laugh seeing his face :-D
edit : the money they could win would be used not only to pay for infrastructures and streamers, to reimburse loans, to prove to investors they are sustainable, to gain exposure and offer the community more good quality shows like Iron Squid or Nation Wars, etc, etc, etc... to *grow* and not die a slow death. Please, think for a second.
These are not "fixed expenses". lol.
Looked, laughed, moved on.
There's no point trying to reason with people that have no industry knowledge. Their position is based on stubborn ignorance, you're better off trying to topple a mountain with your bare hands.
Yay, the merry-go-round got back to some of the oldest and unrelated arguments.
On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: I do not understand why the debate is about twitch and dailymotion.
Because other arguments were countered/dismissed and it got back to this?
On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: On the other hand, the French scene is missing the WCS. Yesterday, there was no French stream. I even saw an Italian one popped out...
As far as I know, there were quite a few non-english streams, and everyone was on Twitch. There was no french stream because there was no agreement about this. There may be one in the future, there may not be. That's all there is to it.
More importantly, *did* the french scene miss out on WCS yesterday? Did no french here watch it? How do you know if other did or didn't? Are the viewship numbers by country out?
"No french stream" does *not* mean "Nobody in France can watch WCS".
On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: I think Blizzard, ESL and the TL community do not want to see no French stream.
But they do want this stream to be on Twitch. And they have every right to want this if they don't have viable incentives to allow anything else.
On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: It could trigger lots of thing in our fragile scene and no one wants too see SC2 disappear in our scene.
Again, no french WCS stream does not mean that SC2 will disappear from the entire country.
On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: My second point is about "professionalism".
Good point. Let's talk about professionalism. Remember when NASL couldn't stream SC2 because of WCS? Did they go on the forums and on Reddit trying to rile up people to force Blizzard to allow them to do what they wanted to do because otherwise it'd be bad for them? I don't remember that. I do remember them adapting, moving to other games, doing what they could with what they had. And they finally got partnered for WCS. Even now, while it seems they've cut back on the SC2 production team, they're still dealing with what they have. *That's* professionalism.
On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: With the labour cost in France, it's impossible to get a professionnal TV with twitch.
Do you have numbers to support this or is this yet another over-exaggeration? There are tons of taxes, but it's not like only an elite part of the population can afford to employ people either.
On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: Please let's consider it: no one wants to stream WCS on twitch today because you lose money !
So don't, deal with it, do something else and keep trying to find an agreement while showing that people are interested in this. And none of this can be done by bitching on TL.
If production costs are too expensive to make streaming on Twitch financially viable, cut back on the production costs. I know, it's easy to say, I don't know anything about how this works, how much it costs and what they can actually do. Do you? And is it actually relevant to the matter at hand?
Wanting the best revenues to allow for the most expensive production value by streaming on DM is one thing. Refusing to compromise and trying to force the issue by calling out to the masses, while using some of the cheapest debating tricks to willingly create drama, is quite another.
On February 19 2014 21:02 Aeromi wrote: If they stream on it, they will close in one year.
Says who? Is streaming WCS this year their only source of income? Are they unable to do something else? And even if it was the case, why should ESL be responsible for their financial stability? It'd be nice, but it's not their job and I'm guessing they have some other things to take care of first.
If OGaming can't (or won't) find an agreement, can't (or won't) adapt or deal with it... well... too bad. Not ESL's fault. Blaming them won't accomplish anything.
On February 19 2014 21:38 Aeromi wrote: They went to Versailles to meet Blizzard several times. They are close to Blizzard, they talk with them everyday.
And so if no agreement can be found, the only solution is to unleash the public at their throats to force the issue, based on false assumptions? Yup, that's professional.
Is the actual issue that there should be a french stream, or that OGaming "must" be allowed to stream WCS on DM, with their full production capacity and the costs that implies, else they'll collapse, the entire french scene will collapse with it and SC2 will vanish from the country? The line seems to be kind of blurry between the two. Is OGaming the *only* way a french stream could happen? And in the worst case, if it never happened, would it really be the end of the world?
Maniak_ your whole post makes no sense, you keep bashing and bashing Ogaming for no apparent reason except maybe your own point of view.
Ogaming was a great addition to the french sc2 community you cannot deny that. They often had more than 7000 viewers and thanks to dailymotion they could hire people, make them work, grow. Now that they are denied dailymotion by ESL who never gave a public explanation, they're dead. At least for the sc2 part.
ESL has provided a reason and it's because they don't use twitch. ABC can't show NBCs shows and just say "people like our channel better." It's sad they can't keep doing it, but it's not ESLs fault that ogaming refuses to use twitch.
On February 20 2014 00:48 Plansix wrote: ESL has provided a reason and it's because they don't use twitch. ABC can't show NBCs shows and just say "people like our channel better." It's sad they can't keep doing it, but it's not ESLs fault that ogaming refuses to use twitch.
It is however quite sad ESL refuses to let Ogaming use something else's than twitch while the guideline for shoutcasters (by blizzard) says other platform can be used if ESL agrees ( http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/about/shoutcasters ).
On February 20 2014 00:48 Plansix wrote: ESL has provided a reason and it's because they don't use twitch. ABC can't show NBCs shows and just say "people like our channel better." It's sad they can't keep doing it, but it's not ESLs fault that ogaming refuses to use twitch.
It is however quite sad ESL refuses to let Ogaming use something else's than twitch while the guideline for shoutcasters (by blizzard) says other platform can be used if ESL agrees ( http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/about/shoutcasters ).
Sounds like a private business matter than should be kept private. Nothing makes a business negotiation go better then airing every part of it out on the Internet. It really helps the sides be canded and honest when they know that any of their discussion could be posted online.
Once again, this entire problem is solved if they just use twitch, rather then the french owned streaming service, Dailymotion.
On February 20 2014 01:19 Plansix wrote: Once again, this entire problem is solved if they just use twitch, rather then the french owned streaming service, Dailymotion.
Well... no. The whole point of using dailymotion is that it is the only platform that seems to be able to sustain a constant growth for ogaming while using twitch would mean too little revenues for the company (rent for studio, salaries for staff, etc).
This means the problem cannot be solved by simply using twitch.
I wonder when every country would ask to use its own streaming service instead of Twitch, saying it's more profitable, and then cry on TL when the ESL says no.
On February 20 2014 01:19 Plansix wrote: Once again, this entire problem is solved if they just use twitch, rather then the french owned streaming service, Dailymotion.
Well... no. The whole point of using dailymotion is that it is the only platform that seems to be able to sustain a constant growth for ogaming while using twitch would mean too little revenues for the company (rent for studio, salaries for staff, etc).
This means the problem cannot be solved by simply using twitch.
Then it sounds like the business agreements they worked out prior to this prevent them from streaming WCS. Twitch and GOM worked out a deal with Blizzard. If daily motion doesn't have a similar deal, then it is their job to get one if they want to stream WCS. Once again, TV networks don't just show whatever show they want, they work out deals with the shows producers.
On February 20 2014 00:41 VieuxSinge wrote: Maniak_ your whole post makes no sense, you keep bashing and bashing Ogaming for no apparent reason except maybe your own point of view.
Where did I bash OGaming except about their initial post on TL which is blatantly manipulating facts in order to be more dramatic?
I do have a problem with this post, but not with OGaming. I don't know them, I don't know what they do and I don't really care. I do agree that having a french WCS stream would be a good thing. I don't care if it's via OGaming or someone else. The main issue as was presented initially is the absence of a french stream, right? Or is it to find a way to sustain OGaming?
I completely agree on the first part, not having a french stream is not good. I don't agree with the assumption that ESL should have to do everything in their power, no matter what it may cost *them*, so that OGaming could have everything they want. Agreements are usually made by compromising with each other. All I see here is people demanding that ESL&co do everything, or else they'll singlehandedly kill the entire french SC2 scene. Where are the suggestions about what OGaming could/should do on their end? Other alternatives? Why is everything on ESL?
On February 20 2014 00:41 VieuxSinge wrote: Ogaming was a great addition to the french sc2 community you cannot deny that. They often had more than 7000 viewers and thanks to dailymotion they could hire people, make them work, grow. Now that they are denied dailymotion by ESL who never gave a public explanation, they're dead. At least for the sc2 part.
As I said, I don't know them nor what they do. I don't doubt what you're saying though. They may very well be the one shining star in the french broadcasting scene.
ESL said publicly that streaming on Twitch is allowed. That's pretty much all that's needed on their part, as far as the public is concerned. Remember that OGaming didn't give any information whatsoever about what's been done of their part either. And that's fine too. All of this is between them. And it should have stayed between them.
This whole topic has been started from an OGaming post that wasn't exactly truthful, without giving much information, and an answer from Carmac, clear and to the point (streaming on Twitch is allowed), without giving much information either. From there, tons of theories have been thrown around, tons of arguments on either side, and all of this based on... having no idea what's actually been (and is probably still) happening behind the scenes.
What's the point? We have *no* idea as to what was said between ESL/OGaming/Blizzard. *No* idea about the financial/contractual implications on either side. *No* idea about the actual impact on viewership.
Who's to say ESL is not right this moment actively trying to solve the issue?
On February 20 2014 00:41 VieuxSinge wrote: This is sad for sc2 and esport in general. Period
Agreed. It's sad, and it'd be nice if a solution was found. So, since we agree, can we move on? Or do you have any suggestion as to what can be done from here?
Or maybe it's time to go to the next series of arguments in the loop, about the french network infrastructure and how french ISPs are trying to kill Twitch by slowing down their traffic?
also what was said by anoss and that disturb me a lot is that esl stopped to give their replay to ogamingtv 9 month ago, is that a global issue likd esl not sharing replays with anyone or is that specifically against ogaming. im sure i saw day9 daily using iem or wcs eu replay last year
On February 20 2014 02:17 SSVnormandy wrote: also what was said by anoss and that disturb me a lot is that esl stopped to give their replay to ogamingtv 9 month ago, is that a global issue likd esl not sharing replays with anyone or is that specifically against ogaming. im sure i saw day9 daily using iem or wcs eu replay last year
Uhm they just released the replays of IEM Cologne?
I am quite disappointed to see that so many people in Europe think having a monopoly on a streaming platform for the broadcasting of a european competition is not a big deal : people comparing NBC and ABC with Twitch.tv and Dailymotion without thinking for a second that France, the UK or Germany are different countries and that as for television it is actually not something new that the same show is shown on different channels in these different countries. Let's take a simple example : Champions League. French channels actually negotiate with UEFA to get the right to broadcast the games : UEFA has never said "Look as the Champions League is already broadcasted on a german or UK channel just watch this and shut up ! Not at all because UEFA also want to have french viewers for the Champions League.
For nine months the french WebTVs have been trying to get the right to broadcast WCS : ESL has made all the negotiations fail. All french WebTV are using Dailymotion as their streaming platform. Thanks to their partnership with Dailymotion they have been able to develop and grow : now they have studios and have been able to hire people and improve a lot the quality of their shows. The fact that ESL is forcing them to use Twitch.tv as their streaming platform is completely dumb : they won't do it because they would not make money out of it so ESL is just saying to the french viewers : "either you find somebody who is willing to cast WCS for basically no money on Twitch.tv or you watch WCS on the german or the english stream"
This is for me really sad for Starcraft II and for esport in general. In France LoL has developed a lot also because at the moment many different WebTVs (at least 4) have been allowed to broadcast the LCS on the streaming platform they prefer.They have all chosen Dailymotion and Riot has never said :"No you should rather use Twitch.tv !" I think Riot is just happy to see that something like 30'000 altogether people are watching LCS every week in France ! Blizzard and ESL should just think a little bit and see wether their agreement with Twitch.tv is worth losing the french speaking Starcraft II community...
I am sure dailymotion has been doing gang busters in France since they are owned by a French ISP. I wonder if we would be as supportive if Verizon came out with their own version of Twitch and then tied to to get the rights to WCS? And if Twitch suddenly started running like crap in Verizon's connections, would we blame twitch?
And let's not act like every SC2 fan in France won't be able to watch SC2 ever again, because that just isn't true.
On February 20 2014 02:38 cortesmaltose wrote: Blizzard and ESL should just think a little bit and see wether their agreement with Twitch.tv is worth losing the french speaking Starcraft II community...
Yup, they should. If they decide it's not worth it, they'll probably do something about it. If they can. They may not. If they decide it's worth it... what then?
And again, as sad and crappy a situation this is for OGaming, this is *not* affecting the *entire* french speaking SC2 community. But it *is* a sad and crappy situation nonetheless.
So... what? Do we need to find someone to hang or do we simply let them know that people would like a solution and let them decide what to do about it, if anything?
On February 20 2014 02:12 Maniak_ wrote: Or maybe it's time to go to the next series of arguments in the loop, about the french network infrastructure and how french ISPs are trying to kill Twitch by slowing down their traffic?
again,
no ISP is trying to kill twitch
DM is great in france because they have private peering with the french ISPs (because that's where most of their audience is), and that was long before Orange bought them completely Twitch just buys transit from poor quality tier1 ISP (level3), which is cheap because they make ISPs pay to peer with them no ISP is slowing down twitch, they have no reason to, if we had to point someone, it would be twitch, which doesn't seem to directly peer with any ISP in EU (from what I gathered during a livestream with a twitch employee last summer)
MLG live for instance, uses akamai, which has much higher standards, and therefore better peering all around the world
french people would have no problem to watch the streams on MLG live either
but that wouldn't solve the issue (finally) revealed, DM is the only supplier of decent CPM in france, and millenium/ogaming would rather restream replays of LoL on DM than stream WCS live on twitch
this is just what should really be in the TL news:
french organizations wants to stream WCS on DailyMotion ESL refuses no statements from Blizzard
On February 20 2014 02:17 SSVnormandy wrote: also what was said by anoss and that disturb me a lot is that esl stopped to give their replay to ogamingtv 9 month ago, is that a global issue likd esl not sharing replays with anyone or is that specifically against ogaming. im sure i saw day9 daily using iem or wcs eu replay last year
Business is business, when 2 companies are having issues between each other they always do small gestures like that, i work part time in a big company (communication department ) , i can tell you we do those kind of move too.
Also after reading that anoss post, i'm sorry but i fail to empathize with the french streamers, it appears that after all its just a money issue / a dailymotion thing.
Regarding the money issue it was a wrong move from millenium/ogaming to sign a sponsorship deal with dailymotion if they wanted to do wcs, the same happened with fnatic and own3dtv. I mean when you chose a sponsorship you have to be aware that the direct concurrent is not gonna be as open as it was before toward you...If WCS was sooo important to them then maybe they should have sign a partnership with twitch.
This is just business, as someone who works in a communication department i see those kind of issue everyday...Nothing amazing.
The best way would be for the french streamers to accept their fate and stream WCS with twitch and the rest of their events with Daily, a contract was sign between blizzard and twitch, its not because ONE ISP is having issue with it that the whole fucking contract will be changed (unless there is a special provision, but only blizz can know )
Otherwise you know what ? Those 3 association will simply not stream WCS and a new production should just join up with Tod, a rising french caster and just do it, i'm sure we can find people who know how to use xsplit and have a decent voice.
On February 20 2014 02:12 Maniak_ wrote: Or maybe it's time to go to the next series of arguments in the loop, about the french network infrastructure and how french ISPs are trying to kill Twitch by slowing down their traffic?
again,
no ISP is trying to kill twitch
I know. But this phase of the 'debate' was pretty funny
On February 20 2014 02:54 miniskirt wrote: DM is great in france because they have private peering with the french ISPs (because that's where most of their audience is)
And they're owned by the ISP that's also the closest to the entire french infrastructure, since they owned it until recently (do they still do? I never understood what they did exactly with the whole "FT is just another service provider, but not really, but kind of").
On February 20 2014 02:54 miniskirt wrote: Twitch just buys transit from poor quality tier1 ISP (level3), which is cheap because they make ISPs pay to peer with them no ISP is slowing down twitch, they have no reason to, if we had to point someone, it would be twitch, which doesn't seem to directly peer with any ISP in EU (from what I gathered during a livestream with a twitch employee last summer)
Agreed.
On February 20 2014 02:54 miniskirt wrote: MLG live for instance, uses akamai, which has much higher standards, and therefore better peering all around the world
french people would have no problem to watch the streams on MLG live either
There were ups and downs as well with them, but once upon a time it was possible to watch 4 MLG streams at once, at least two of them being in HD. Then again at that time, Twitch (or was it still JTV?) had also much better performance than it had last year. This year seems much better though, at least from what I experienced. Watched all of WCS EU and AM yesterday/last night without issues, as well as other friends with other ISPs on opposite sides of the country. This would have been impossible without a VPN 3 months ago. Not to say that's the general case either, but Twitch is not unwatchable for the *entire* country. And DM is not better than Twitch for the *entire* country either. And that's beside the point. But yes, Level3 is crap. And I'll stop editing this post now. This must be the tenth edit
On February 20 2014 02:54 miniskirt wrote: but that wouldn't solve the issue (finally) revealed, DM is the only supplier of decent CPM in france, and millenium/ogaming would rather restream replays of LoL on DM than stream WCS live on twitch
this is just what should really be in the TL news:
french organizations wants to stream WCS on DailyMotion ESL refuses no statements from Blizzard
Agreed as well.
And that should be pretty much the end of the 'debate'. We don't know why ESL refuses, we don't know under which obligations they're operating, we can only let them know of who may be affected.
Where's the need for pitchforks? Do we even know where to point them at? ESL? OGaming? Twitch? DM? Orange? Level3?
I would like to remind that this doesn't affect only french community for god sake. If you deny the 3 main organization to be able to stream the Major competition of sc2. Those structure will slowly die.
That means for non-french people that events like :
-Nation Wars -Ironsquid -Dailymotion cup
will not exist anymore or will be extremely difficult to produce.
Ironsquid was abandonned in 2013 mainly because of the WCS system was so utterly dominant it let no place for non WCS events. Ogamingtv couldn't organize anything international last year so they survived with french events. Add that ESL chose very discutably aAa to cast WCS eu (any french could agree the aAa stream was bad compared to Ogamingtv or Millenium standards) and you understand why Ogamingtv is in such difficulty right now.
When they were able to cast some events : Homestory cup and WCS season 3 (thanks NASL) they skyrocketed the number of viewer even with being totally absent for the rest of the year. This must show how many people are backing them up.
Now don't worry for Ogaming on its own the structure will very likely survive with LoL Dota and other games. It is just the sc2 branch that will fall.
On February 20 2014 03:01 Maniak_ wrote: And they're owned by the ISP that's also the closest to the entire french infrastructure, since they owned it until recently (do they still do? I never understood what they did exactly with the whole "FT is just another service provider, but not really, but kind of").
the backend network is pretty much different for every ISP (=once your DSL line passes your fai DSLAM, the path is different)
On February 20 2014 02:54 miniskirt wrote: MLG live for instance, uses akamai, which has much higher standards, and therefore better peering all around the world
french people would have no problem to watch the streams on MLG live either
There were ups and downs as well with them, but once upon a time it was possible to watch 4 MLG streams at once, at least of them being in HD. Then again at that time, Twitch (or was it still JTV?) had also much better performance than it had last year.
true (though i'm not sure MLG always used akamai, i just know it's true for the upcoming MLG live thing because i asked it in the AMA)
to close the debate about stream quality, people in french are free to choose an ISP with better peering with level3 (sfr and to a lesser extent, bouygue then numericable), though most of them rather complain (national sport, we should stream it) than think about changing ISP even though it's a piece of cake and there's not much difference in terms of services provided besides set top boxes (and peering...) BUT, people being able to watch twitch in good quality isn't the issue, CPM and stream time efficiency is
On February 20 2014 03:01 Maniak_ wrote: And that should be pretty much the end of the 'debate'. We don't know why ESL refuses, we don't know under which obligations they're operating, we can only let them know of who may be affected.
Where's the need for pitchforks?
it's another nice demonstration of french organizations being terrible at international PR (and english phrasing)
this sucks cause WCS could really help ogaming and they deserve it, i wish blizzard would intervene
Otherwise you know what ? Those 3 association will simply not stream WCS and a new production should just join up with Tod, a rising french caster and just do it, i'm sure we can find people who know how to use xsplit and have a decent voice.
The problem is that you guys don't understand how much a large part of the french community cares about Ogamingtv for simple reasons :
-They contributed to the sucess of our barcraft Meltdown in Paris that is currently a lot animated by them. This place is like the core of French esport community.
-They organized a lot of live events that brought us together.
-They have a real fun show
Now tell me how 2 others random guys will replace them? My guess on that is if they do it it will just fail hard because a non negligible part of us will turn the stream on mainly to see a Pomf&Thud show.
As for ToD, he is imo in a very bad spot and I wouldn't want to be in his place right now. If he replaces the stream of aAa , Millenium and Ogamingtv it will be very hard for him and I don't think he wants to do that. He must be pressured from both sides ESL and the trio. I guess he would largely prefer be on the main stream for his excellent work.
The question is: does any of the organizations dare to mess up their relationship with Twitch?
Of course streaming does not have to happen on Twitch exclusively, according to the rulebook, but I can't imagine it to be healthy for the relationship, if Blizzard partners with a streaming platform for one event and then allows streaming on another for the main event.
It's probably the same with the french streams, they also seem to have a good relationship with Dailymotion, seeing for example the sponsorship of the Dailymotion cup. With WCS undoubtedly being their biggest event in sc2 should they decide to cover it, do they really want to stream in on Twitch?
Otherwise you know what ? Those 3 association will simply not stream WCS and a new production should just join up with Tod, a rising french caster and just do it, i'm sure we can find people who know how to use xsplit and have a decent voice.
The problem is that you guys don't understand how much a large part of the french community cares about Ogamingtv for simple reasons :
-They contributed to the sucess of our barcraft Meltdown in Paris that is currently a lot animated by them. This place is like the core of French esport community.
-They organized a lot of live events that brought us together.
-They have a real fun show
Now tell me how 2 others random guys will replace them? My guess on that is if they do it it will just fail hard because a non negligible part of us will turn the stream on mainly to see a Pomf&Thud show.
As for ToD, he is imo in a very bad spot and I wouldn't want to be in his place right now. If he replaces the stream of aAa , Millenium and Ogamingtv it will be very hard for him and I don't think he wants to do that. He must be pressured from both sides ESL and the trio. I guess he would largely prefer be on the main stream for his excellent work.
I think you don't understand how little we care about OGamingtv. at least compared to the ESL. I at least am not going to take a stance against the ESL in a conflict where I do not see them at fault.
The ESL organized WCS EU has ties with Twitch and Ogamingtv has ties with Dailymotion. ESL does not want to allow streams outside of Twitch for WCS EU and Ogamingtv doesn't want to stream outside of Dailymotion. Nobody is at fault, it's a stupid situation.
I do hope that Blizzard gives up the exclusive partnership with Twitch though (either by dropping it or also partnering with Dailymotion for the french stream).
On February 20 2014 03:09 SSVnormandy wrote: Now don't worry for Ogaming on its own the structure will very likely survive with LoL Dota and other games. It is just the sc2 branch that will fall.
Which would be bad and should be avoided since the more quality content there is out there, the better it is.
However, this would imply that the main issue here is actually the survival of the SC2 branch of OGaming. This problem would remain even if someone else ended up doing the french stream for WCS, right?
And this issue is caused by quite a lot of external factors. - contractual obligations between OGaming and DM - contractual obligations between ESL/Blizzard and Twitch - ad revenue differences between DM and Twitch - peering issues - whatever unknown obligations ESL are operating under (OGaming is tied to DM, ESL is tied to Twitch, how is that any less important? Of course there are going to be casualties when there are competing interests) - <insert any other potential factor here>
I get that OGaming is getting desperate, but what's the solution exactly if no agreement can be made between them and ESL for reasons that we don't know and/or can't do anything about? Pitchforks? Camping in front of ESL's headquarters?
Let me venture a guess here: this a not a situation that's going to be easy to solve, especially not by venting and theorizing about hidden agendas in a forum. Even a TL forum.
Right now, OGaming cannot produce a french stream for WCS. There's not solution (publicly) in sight for the moment. That's not good.
That doesn't mean there won't ever be a french stream for WCS, but maybe not from OGaming. That doesn't mean that OGaming will close its doors, or even its SC2 branch. If I remember correctly (not looking at the post right now), Anoss said that in the current situation, they'd be limited to small/medium events/productions. But did they say anything about the actual viability of the entire SC2 branch?. And that doesn't mean than nobody in the country is able to watch WCS.
Let me venture another guess: the *vast* majority of french people learn at least one language in school. Mainly english. Then spanish/german. You do not need to be fluent in english/whatever in order to understand a SC2 stream. It helps, but you can still enjoy the hell out of it. How many people don't understand a word of korean but are still excited when hearing a korean broadcast?
So yes, it's a bad situation, it'd be great if a solution was found, the sooner the better, losing good SC2 content is always bad, but it's not "WowTheWorldIsEndingRightNow" either. *And* if it was that easy to solve, it would be solved already. ESL doesn't strike me as a company out to kill the french SC2 scene.
So yes, it's a bad situation, it'd be great if a solution was found, the sooner the better, losing good SC2 content is always bad, but it's not "WowTheWorldIsEndingRightNow" either. *And* if it was that easy to solve, it would be solved already. ESL doesn't strike me as a company out to kill the french SC2 scene.
It's not the end of the world but it's much more worth fighting for than the other absurd discussion going on daily basis on this forum about the OPness of the FOTM race. Also I do not know nothing about ESL true motive but I hope there is no animosity between the two organisations
On February 20 2014 04:34 SSVnormandy wrote:It's not the end of the world but it's much more worth fighting for than the other absurd discussion going on daily basis on this forum about the OPness of the FOTM race. Also I do not know nothing about ESL true motive but I hope there is no animosity between the two organisations
I never got the impression, at least in this topic (filtering out all the noise), that this was something irrelevant that should be ignored. The issue is that this is not something that can be solved by shouting about it or pointing fingers (and clearly, the various conspiracy theories that got sparked from this *are* irrelevant).
What do you propose we should do? Bring it to the attention of Blizzard and ESL? Already done. Bring it to the attention of DailyMotion? Already suggested. No idea if it's been done or tried. And if this worked, it would not be in the near future. Such things tend to take time. Take it to the streets of France to ask for a better peering with Twitch?
What's missing here are ideas to do something about it. If it's even possible. Accusing ESL and bitching about them will not help. Arguing about who's better between Twitch and DM will not help. Rambling about the french network infrastructure will not help. Yes there are issues, but at least we don't have monthly bandwidth caps. We can watch streams all day long while downloading however many shows we want for 30€/month without having to even think about how much bandwidth we're using. Others are struggling much more than France to keep their SC2 scene alive, and they don't come here to cry about it.
So, again, yes it's a bad situation, but what do you suggest we do about it?
I fail to see the issue. It's a contractual obligation for ESL/WCS. Why can't they broadcast it on twitch? Does O'Gaming & Millennium TV have obligations to stream it on another service?
On February 20 2014 22:10 GohgamX wrote: I fail to see the issue. It's a contractual obligation for ESL/WCS. Why can't they broadcast it on twitch? Does O'Gaming & Millennium TV have obligations to stream it on another service?
Can you read the thread please ? Yes, probably they have, and, twitch is not/less sustainable (in a nutshell), and doesn't work well here. If you want more detailed info on why (supposedly), read it.
On February 20 2014 22:10 GohgamX wrote: I fail to see the issue. It's a contractual obligation for ESL/WCS. Why can't they broadcast it on twitch? Does O'Gaming & Millennium TV have obligations to stream it on another service?
Ogaming makes more money on dailymotion, so they want to use that service. ESL says people have to use twitch because Blizzard and twitch partnered for this season of WSC. So what is good for Ogaminf is not good for WCS and the contract ax blizzard worked out.
The problem is that actually, in France, even a 10k viewers stream would only be worth about 2$/hour with the ads and cpm problems, which is not even legal for a worker in France except if he works for free.
Find someone who would stream the entire WCS for free all the year long.
On February 21 2014 06:10 Ishentar wrote: The problem is that actually, in France, even a 10k viewers stream would only be worth about 2$/hour with the ads and cpm problems, which is not even legal for a worker in France except if he works for free.
Find someone who would stream the entire WCS for free all the year long.
Is there anything new on this issue ? Apparently there were no stream fr for the group C either. Anyway I went to the Underdogs live tonight , it was great and I hope they can continue bring that much enjoyment around SC2. Hearing a whole bar shouting and supporting esport event feels really great! Hope we can do the same for WCS when dayshi will be fighting in Ro32
On February 26 2014 01:46 klup wrote: Still No stream for French speaking people. I guess ESL prefer let the topic die and would be happy with no French stream at all.
Bad for Esport.
You're probably right, ESL probably would like the topic to die unless the French organisations follow their terms. Which, you know, kind of makes sense.
If you stream via Eclypsia you have 3€ cpm (I'm not talking about their official streamers, nah, I'm tlaking about the affilitation system or dunno how it's called in english, PM me if you don't understand), which means, for ex. if you have 1k viewers, it means you have 1k views, so you got 3€. You throw ads ? Basically 3 more € per ad. Something like that.
So if a random dude has a base of 3€ cpm, structures like Ogaming or Millenium that probably have contracts with Dailymotion are supposed to get more than 2$/hour for a 10k viewers stream.
That's hard to explain in english, tho. As I said, PM me if you need.
On the actual topic, the way aAa/M/Ogaming acted (like childs, basically) isn't professionnal at all, so them not having the right to stream is kinda fair I guess. Actually I think they screwed themselves.
As far as I can see, from reading this thread - and I'll be careful with my wording...
Blizzard has a contractual obligation to stream WCS on twitch (pre-existing) oGaming has a preference to use DailyMotion, due to previous projects and higher revenues
Nobody seems to know the revenue figures, but I would suspect it's significantly higher than 3 euro per hour if you could attract 10k viewers. Something here seems an order of magnitude out?
The only solutions that can be inferred from this situation, if correct, are:
a) oGaming choose to use Twitch to stream the event b) Another partner (not oGaming) stream the WCS event on Twitch
From what I can read in this thread, ESL have already stated the position, extremely clearly - and oGaming have basically tried to dramatise the issue by claiming they have been 'barred' from showing it. From what I can read, that claim is based on the fact that they aren't allowed to stream it in DailyMotion. Assuming this to be the case, then oGaming are fully at fault here.
Contractual obligations trump financial incentives and working relationships.
(i am in the process of transcribing and translating some parts for the non french speakers)
for the record, this video is much better than the PR failure that previously happened with kerri (they don't acknowledge it though)
the video also teases Iron Squid 3, and another, unknown tournaments (rumors have been creeping about a joint LoL/SC2 tournament from ogaming crew for a while)
0:30-1:15: In 2013, we (Pomf and Thud, owners of Ogaming webtv and Alt-Tab production company), were as surprised as you and most of the scene to learn that Blizzard was going to lay the foundation for a worldwide championship, and it was about to start barely two months after the Iron Squid 2 event. We weren't invited to join the WCS EU community. We then contacted blizzard, who redirected the talk to Esl. The Esl is the contractor of blizzard but they actually own the WCS EU competition. 1:15-1:50 We offered Esl to make a joint cast with the whole sc2 french scene (ogaming, Millenium, Aaa, the meltdown). The esl never followed the offer. 1:50-3:30: The proposition was blocked due to partnership reason. Twitch, the partner of esl, does a remarkable job in the whole world in the gaming industry to reach the people. However, in france, the advertising service is devastating. It performs very poorly unlike every other countries. Producing a show in normal conditions, paying the casters, the technicians decently requires money. For us, it means 200 to 500€ per hour of production cost. Twitch pays about 20€ for 10k french viewers. The WCS cast means about 300 hours of streaming. That is a lot of money lost that the production company can't currently afford to invest. 3:30-5:00 This is the reason why, in france, no one streams on twitch, we are no exception. The very few french twitch streams uses twitch because they have other, better sources of income (youtube, partnerships,...). This isn't about grinding esport money, this is about abiding to the law, collective agreement, paying the crew, the material investments, the studio,... Twitch just doesn't allow us to do that. And that is only the case in france, if you go to the US, the advertisement remuneration is completely different (much higher), it is all about the performance of the advertising service of twitch, in france... bummer. 5:00-5:35 For all these reasons, we couldn't find an agreement with ESL and blizzard. We didn't think it would be so difficult to agree on something. We can really feel, from blizzard, the intention to make the WCS EU accessible to the french audience, they believe in us. And so do we. We thank everyone that participated in the #WCSEnFrançais on twitter to help us move things around, we have good hope it will work out in the end, we can only tell you it's just not gonna be right now.
(i am in the process of transcribing and translating some parts for the non french speakers)
for the record, this video is much better than the PR failure that previously happened with kerri (they don't acknowledge it though)
the video also teases Iron Squid 3, and another, unknown tournaments (rumors have been creeping about a joint LoL/SC2 tournament from ogaming crew for a while)
Stream in french from Belgium/switzerland/germany/spain/uk then... seriously just send a video flux from france to some UK partner and then just stream it, can't be that hard.
Yeah that is really sad for the French community, especially since they have shown to be one of the powerhouse in terms of esport support and crowd base in Europe. Sucks that they are being shafted like this.
Hopefully they can work something out, ESL might not really have a choice since the French don't want it streamed on Twitch.
All is explained very well. Recommend it because it give a good insight what kind of problem a Esport media company can face and also explain with kind word why blizzard Esport team is bullshit.
(i am in the process of transcribing and translating some parts for the non french speakers)
for the record, this video is much better than the PR failure that previously happened with kerri (they don't acknowledge it though)
the video also teases Iron Squid 3, and another, unknown tournaments (rumors have been creeping about a joint LoL/SC2 tournament from ogaming crew for a while)
Stream in french from Belgium/switzerland/germany/spain/uk then... seriously just send a video flux from france to some UK partner and then just stream it, can't be that hard.
(i am in the process of transcribing and translating some parts for the non french speakers)
for the record, this video is much better than the PR failure that previously happened with kerri (they don't acknowledge it though)
the video also teases Iron Squid 3, and another, unknown tournaments (rumors have been creeping about a joint LoL/SC2 tournament from ogaming crew for a while)
Stream in french from Belgium/switzerland/germany/spain/uk then... seriously just send a video flux from france to some UK partner and then just stream it, can't be that hard.
but... that won't increase the revenue, the viewers will still be french -_-
If no "big" structure wants to do it, it should be opened to "community" streamers who will do for the sake of doing it, because they love SC2 and love casting. It probably won't attract as much people as P&T or Anoss or whoever but it will be better than English for a lot of people. And even if the production value might be inferior, the casting will probably not.
I know this an unpopular opinion because if someone does it, Ogaming & co have less strategic value to try and pressure ESL/Blizz into going against their contract and allowing them to do it on Dailymotion.
But I don't care, if they can't do it because they have higher running cost and can't affrod it, then hire someone who can do it. That's basic supply and demand.
On April 18 2014 06:43 Growiel wrote: If no "big" structure wants to do it, it should be opened to "community" streamers who will do for the sake of doing it, because they love SC2 and love casting. It probably won't attract as much people as P&T or Anoss or whoever but it will be better than English for a lot of people. And even if the production value might be inferior, the casting will probably not.
I know this an unpopular opinion because if someone does it, Ogaming & co have less strategic value to try and pressure ESL/Blizz into going against their contract and allowing them to do it on Dailymotion.
But I don't care, if they can't do it because they have higher running cost and can't affrod it, then hire someone who can do it. That's basic supply and demand.
It is opened to community casters. They just don't want to do it because they are not fulltime or they want to produce a good content and not a solo cast.
On April 18 2014 06:43 Growiel wrote: If no "big" structure wants to do it, it should be opened to "community" streamers who will do for the sake of doing it, because they love SC2 and love casting. It probably won't attract as much people as P&T or Anoss or whoever but it will be better than English for a lot of people. And even if the production value might be inferior, the casting will probably not.
I know this an unpopular opinion because if someone does it, Ogaming & co have less strategic value to try and pressure ESL/Blizz into going against their contract and allowing them to do it on Dailymotion.
But I don't care, if they can't do it because they have higher running cost and can't affrod it, then hire someone who can do it. That's basic supply and demand.
It is opened to community casters. They just don't want to do it because they are not fulltime or they want to produce a good content and not a solo cast.
But in the meantime can't a community caster do a smaller stream while these issues are resolved?