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So on last nights unfiltered, Destiny posed the question "Why did the NA scene die so fucking hard?" to which various people on the show gave their ideas, stated as facts, as to why it died so hard. I personally feel that while some of those were contributing factors, they weren't as significant as they were made out to be. I'm going to give the reasons I feel that the NA scene took such a hit, please hit me up with your opinions or where you feel I'm wrong.
Too many NA tournaments went too professional too fast
Here I'm looking at IPL, MLG, NASL and to some degree Lone Star Clash. Right from the start these companies were willing to spend a lot of money in making the most professional tournaments they could, renting big venues, making casters where suits, act professionaly and hiring hosts to make the tournament look as professional as possible. While this might have seemed a good thing, it always felt to me that it meant that any small groups of people in NA were scared off hosting small tournaments because they couldn't compete with MLG and IPL. In EU dreamhack was probably the biggest flagship and it's most obvious trait was a bigger emphasis on humour and not taking itself too seriously. This was a template that could easily be downscaled and made cheaper, as ASUS ROG and homestory cup showed us. ESL, EUs other flagship, has made a name for itself by being very careful when it comes to funds and only spending what they think they can. This has made EU a slow to start region but a very solid one that can't be disrupted as easily as the NA one has proven to be (IPL, NASL).
No NA hopes for 2 years
When sc2 came out, idra was the obvious american hope, smashing opposition and the NA scene flocked to him as their messiah, after him came HuK, but after HuK there was really nobody who NA players could look to as their hero. The "USA USA USA" chants at Stephano, while they were obviously a joke, had some serious undertones that there really was this gap they needed somebody to fill. It wasn't until late 2013 that scarlett really showed that she could be relied upon to carry the NA flag, but I think at this point the ship had already sailed.
Idra
As I've said before idra was the most influential NA player for the longest time, he probably boasts the highest personal stream viewership numbers ever. So why was he a part of the NA scene crashing? Because he hated the game. When you have a hero, somebody you really want to be like, and they are constantly saying how bad SC2 is and how they wish they were doing something else, that can only put you off playing the game yourself. Idra's fan base was always going to diminish because he himself was actively pushing people away from SC2.
MLG and IPL bringing Koreans in
Dreamhack used to be slated for not bringing enough Koreans into their tournaments and not getting the "best play possible". At this point MLG was flying Koreans in to take part in their tournaments. In retrospect, now that we all talk about region locking as the "way to save starcraft" we can probably say that bringing the Koreans over was a bad idea. People may think they want to watch the best starcraft play possible, but frankly, they don't. They want drama, they want to see their favorites do well, they want to watch people with a sell-able and relate-able personality. As destiny has pointed out previously, can we bronze-diamond scrubs really tell the difference between a GM Korean play and a GM NA?
Business models
I feel the competition between NA tournaments was actually a really bad thing. I know that most people will tell you that competition between businesses can only be a good thing I feel that the amount of money MLG, IPL and NASL were throwing at tournaments to outdo each other was in no way sustainable. In 2011 and 2012 NA had the biggest number of sponsors willing to throw money about, and I feel this led a lot of the companies to really spend spend spend. In 2011 the sc2 hype was overwhelming, everyone thought sc2 was going to be the big thing for not just then next 2 years, but for the next decade or so, like brood war had been in korea. It seemed companies like NASL really hedged their bets on starcraft living up to these expectations and were willing to spend more money than they really should have to make sure that their name would still be an important one at the end of starcrafts alleged 10 year life cycle. Again when we look back at ESL and European companies, they have always appeared to spend more reservedly, and in the long term that seems to have worked out.
There are some other points I'd have like to have made but was unsure on the best way of approaching them without generalizing too much such as; culture, work ethic, lack of rivalries and prior pro game experience. If you have any other reasons please say!
Edit: The thread title and question posed is mostly rhetoric, I personally don't think the scene is "dead" the thread is more about why the NA scene has declined so much in respect to the other regions. Following along those lines, I find all the comments that blame the game are really missing the point. You can't blame anything that is true across the board for all regions on the decline of ONE region.
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Is that time of the year again ?
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i thought it was because tasteless lost his passion? oh no that's why it died two years ago.
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It died because its an old game and people are getting older. The game is four years old next july and the average age of players seems like it was around 16-28 so you add four years to that age group and suddenly you have college, working, starting families, new games coming out that etc. It's hard to play the same game for years on end when the majority of the player base is bronze-gold (casual). People move on to newer things, it is to be expected.
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The biggest thing is that the high cost of living makes going pro less rewarding than those in Korean, CIS countries; and the lack of social safety net makes it much more risky than those in Europe, especially Scandinavian countries. In many places around the world a person can reasonably afford to take a couple years off from study / work in the late teen, early twenties and pursue a progaming career, US and to a lesser degree Canada are not such places.
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obama, i thought it was obvious
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Size, and transportation. It's really hard to coordinate an event in NA. Europe and Korea are better equipped and smaller, not to mention a more active PC gaming scene.
You want specific reasons, but it is simple. Just because NA isn't top dog doesn't mean it's any specific persons fault. Yeah we are not as popular.. we get it.
That being said, I personally don't think the scene is dead. I don't really give a shit when someone says otherwise, I will continue to play the game and watch the NA events. Sorry we aren't COOL enough to hang out with the popular EU and Korea crowds, I'll go cry myself to sleep now..
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On June 20 2014 04:23 mGGNoRe wrote: It died because its an old game and people are getting older. The game is four years old next july and the average age of players seems like it was around 16-28 so you add four years to that age group and suddenly you have college, working, starting families, new games coming out that etc. It's hard to play the same game for years on end when the majority of the player base is bronze-gold (casual). People move on to newer things, it is to be expected. starcraft is the only game i know of where slowly dying 4 years after release is considered a "failure"
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Because all that the NA fans cared about was the latest shenanigans of Deezer, CombatEx and Destiny.
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I don't have player count/activity data from the past, but I am gathering a lot of data on current player activity, so thought I'd chime in.
There are about 10,000 people that play about 1 game a day on 1v1 ranked ladder, on the American server. This is based on bonus pool. Let's call these players "active"
Contrast this with the total number of players that have completed a placement match (about 106,000 for the American server).
Would it be exaggeration to say that half of those people still play SC2 consistently, just non-1v1 ranked ladder? Teams, unranked, FFA, vs. AI.
So 10,000 1v1 actives + 50,000 non 1v1 actives - that means at least 60,000 people. However, this doesn't take into account the "unseen population" - people that have not done a placement match this season, but just play games vs. AI or unranked. Maybe it's another 5-10,000.
Overall I'd guess that ~60-70,000 people are playing SC2 a few times a week on the American server. Maybe it's like 20-30,000 at peak times. If you want to lean on the low end (i.e. a majority of the people that bothered to do a placement match just stopped playing period), then maybe cut those numbers in half.
Also, for EU, the percentages are pretty much the same (~10,000 1v1 actives, about 10% of the total 1v1 population)
Again, I don't know what the player counts were in the past... so, ded gaem or not you can make that call. Personally I don't think so, even though I agree with most of what you said.
At the esports level, it's a different topic, but as long as the underlying player pool for the American server is still as large as the EU server player pool (and it is right now), the potential is there to keep up with EU counterparts.
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NA isn't dead. Won't be for quite some time.
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IMO Destiny's popularity is a large part of what I think ails the NA scene.
Let me elaborate.
When I used to cast Clan Wars for Team Leagues like ISTL or URTL I got to see what GM play in North America looked like on a regular basis, I got to see just how much talent is actually in the North American scene and I was surprised at how good so many players were that I had never heard about until then. when I'd go and watch these players stream I'd be saddened to see them with less than 100 viewers while guys like Destiny, Idra and Huk had 10 thousand if not more.
Obviously I knew who guys like Huk, Destiny, Idra and the other big names were, but these players I was watching play were in my mind just as good or had the potential to be if allowed to play professionally without having to balance out real jobs or schoolwork.
That's the problem though. So much of what it takes to become popular in the North American scene is not skill related but rather entertainment related. NA produces a lot of great entertainers, but very few quality players that produce results, IMO this is because North American fans give an unhealthy amount of focus to personality and ability to create entertaining drama than they do to how good someone actually is.
In the long run we've gotten what we've wanted. A lot of entertaining players that turn into great personalities in the scene but very few guys who can compete with the pros from the other regions.
What we have now in 2014 is a situation where we have very few tournaments in North America for North American players. The ones we DO get, tend to be more like Redbull Battlegrounds where they have a large portion of their players invited based on their popularity.
What few tournaments we get that are truly open to anyone, have the added problem of geography that discourage relative unknowns from being able to compete. It's much easier for a relative unknown in Korea or Europe to hop on a train than it is for a Canadian or East Coast Kid to get a plane ticket to the West coast for vice versa. This only further exacerbates the popularity issue since so few people get to watch these guys play on a big stage.
Add in the constant problem of low viewer counts for ALL North American tournaments compared to their European or Korean counterparts and we have a truly dire situation for the NA scene.
I'm hoping MLG Anaheim provides a bit of a shot to the heart to the NA scene to try and get some life back into it, but in order for that to happen the event needs to be successful and the few NA Champs we have there need to make a good show. Lots of ifs.
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Blizzard charges 50% of all ad revenues which makes very uncomely for tournaments&sponsoren (if prizemoney is >5k).
Viewers interests has switched since SC2. In BW and WC3 days, we only looked to playstyles of progamers. Now we want personality of progamers, playstyle is secondary. This is rather Blizzard's failure because the game is pretty forwardly so we need another stuff than the game.
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I'm gonna say MOBAs had a big part to do with it.
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Cause we have things like what happened between ruff and root generating buzz that take all the headlines when in reality every single player involved in shit like that should keep their mouths shut and practice until they are even worthy of being considered pro sc2 players or worth listening to. Bunch of babies basically run the scene in NA while this very website stifles any honest discussion about the flailing state of the game in regards to viewership, balance, entertainment etc. You simply can't state your honest opinions and gripes without being banned. Now go look at hltv.org or how CSGO is skyrocketing in viewship and playerbase and you have a good counterexample of a community in which people are honest about their feelings and can freely discuss things they don't like without having to worry about being silenced. On top of that, talking shit generates entertainment not crybaby drama because all that matters is what you do IN THE GAME and if you can't compete with the best then nobody gives a fuck about you. I agree that the NA sc2 scene was hijacked from the getgo by a few specialized interest groups that have now moved on and basically don't care anymore leaving us with almost nothing.
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On June 20 2014 04:45 Dingodile wrote: Blizzard charges 50% of all ad revenues which makes very uncomely for tournaments&sponsoren (if prizemoney is >5k).
Viewers interests has switched since SC2. In BW and WC3 days, we only looked to playstyles of progamers. Now we want personality of progamers, playstyle is secondary. This is rather Blizzard's failure because the game is pretty forwardly so we need another stuff than the game.
almost all top players have a (very) different playstyle I doubt it's the problem.
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On June 20 2014 04:39 Vindicare605 wrote: IMO Destiny's popularity is a large part of what I think ails the NA scene.
Let me elaborate.
When I used to cast Clan Wars for Team Leagues like ISTL or URTL I got to see what GM play in North America looked like, I got to see just how much talent is actually in the North American scene and I was surprised at how good so many players were that I had never heard about until then. when I'd go and watch these players stream I'd be saddened to see them with less than 100 viewers while guys like Destiny, Idra and Huk had 10 thousand if not more.
Obviously I knew who guys like Huk, Destiny, Idra and the other big names were, but these players I was watching play were in my mind just as good or had the potential to be if allowed to play professionally without having to balance out real jobs or schoolwork.
That's the problem though. So much of what it takes to become popular in the North American scene is not skill related but rather entertainment related. NA produces a lot of great entertainers, but very few quality players that produce results, IMO this is because North American fans give an unhealthy amount of focus to personality and ability to create entertaining drama than they do to how good someone actually is.
In the long run we've gotten what we've wanted. A lot of entertaining players that turn into great personalities in the scene but very few guys who can compete with the pros from the other regions.
While I agree with your conclusion of the scene being more focused on personalities than on results (Destiny is one example, Spanishiwa, Maximusblack or avilo are others), I have to step in for Idra and HuK here. Those guys are, with Scarlett, the only players, the NA scene ever had, who were truly internationally succesful (Guangzhou for Idra, DH Summer for HuK). They may have benefited from their high popularity, but they where also the best, NA had to offer during their peaks.
Also NA is not dead. EG, IvD and others are still proffesional organisations, who have a focus on the NA scene, MLG is coming back, etc. SO don't write NA off to soon, just because Destiny says so, he also thought the game would be dead a few years ago and is is neither dead nor dying now.
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On June 20 2014 04:39 Vindicare605 wrote: IMO Destiny's popularity is a large part of what I think ails the NA scene.
oh god lol.....
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On June 20 2014 04:52 kaykoose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 04:39 Vindicare605 wrote: IMO Destiny's popularity is a large part of what I think ails the NA scene.
oh god lol.....
That line is called a hook. It's meant to get a reaction out of you in order to get you to read the otherwise TLDR post.
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On June 20 2014 04:52 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 04:39 Vindicare605 wrote: IMO Destiny's popularity is a large part of what I think ails the NA scene.
Let me elaborate.
When I used to cast Clan Wars for Team Leagues like ISTL or URTL I got to see what GM play in North America looked like, I got to see just how much talent is actually in the North American scene and I was surprised at how good so many players were that I had never heard about until then. when I'd go and watch these players stream I'd be saddened to see them with less than 100 viewers while guys like Destiny, Idra and Huk had 10 thousand if not more.
Obviously I knew who guys like Huk, Destiny, Idra and the other big names were, but these players I was watching play were in my mind just as good or had the potential to be if allowed to play professionally without having to balance out real jobs or schoolwork.
That's the problem though. So much of what it takes to become popular in the North American scene is not skill related but rather entertainment related. NA produces a lot of great entertainers, but very few quality players that produce results, IMO this is because North American fans give an unhealthy amount of focus to personality and ability to create entertaining drama than they do to how good someone actually is.
In the long run we've gotten what we've wanted. A lot of entertaining players that turn into great personalities in the scene but very few guys who can compete with the pros from the other regions.
While I agree with your conclusion of the scene being more focused on personalities than on results (Destiny is one example, Spanishiwa, Maximusblack or avilo are others), I have to step in for Idra and HuK here. Those guys are, with Scarlett, the only players, the NA scene ever had, who were truly internationally succesful (Guangzhou for Idra, DH Summer for HuK). They may have benefited from their high popularity, but they where also the best, NA had to offer during their peaks. Also NA is not dead. EG, IvD and others are still proffesional organisations, who have a focus on the NA scene, MLG is coming back, etc. SO don't write NA off to soon, just because Destiny says so, he also thought the game would be dead a few years ago and is is neither dead nor dying now.
I added in another couple paragraphs that further elaborates on the opportunity disparity that make me include Huk and Idra in my examples.
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