Update July 17: The Test map and the Balance Testing Extension Mod are now published: Link
Thank you for helping us playtest the current test map. From our own testing and the feedback we’ve gathered so far, here are our current thoughts on the changes:
Thor AA prioritization change This is a good change that’s simple and clean. It’s a minor improvement to players who aren’t able to micro Thors against Mutalisks in combat, and the general usage makes more sense with this change.
Time Warp duration decrease The effects of this change definitely seem noticeable, but we’d like to push this nerf slightly further.
Widow Mine splash radius increase The splash radius of 2 seems too much against Protoss worker lines. Also, we wonder if the full damage against Zerg being only an increase of 0.25 is too little.
So we’d like to make further adjustments and see if we can push some of these changes as much as possible. The changes we’d like to try next on the balance test map are:
Widow Mine Widow Mine going back to full splash damage and a 1.75 radius. (But they would still keep the +shields damage) This lessens its power against Probes, returns the Widow Mine to how it used to be against Zerg, and provides big improvements against Protoss armies in the mid and late game.
Time Warp Duration decreased to 10 seconds.
Obviously, these are just balance test map changes and part of the ongoing testing process. Nothing is final yet, so please share your thoughts after having playtested the current balance test map changes as well as the upcoming changes detailed in this post.
wow what. Getting back the mines from HotS-release against Zerg is cool. But keeping the +shields damage means that mines would be really strong against Toss after that. It's like 40+40 damage in close radius (<1.25) and still 40+10 in full 1.75 then. Combined with the huge time warp nerf that would change a looooooooot. Still not the things most people want to see changed (except maybe the mine returning to it's old stage) though
Would be nice if they took out +shields to make templar viable again. As is, they look powerful vs probes so widow mine drop openings would be more viable again
We are going back to RELEASE versions? Surprise! Who would have thought the RELEASE version was balanced after all the beta testing? Maybe they should go back to release version for everything, like how it was supposed to be before the patches screwed everything.
On July 16 2014 02:07 KatatoniK wrote: 10 second time warp? Blizzard pls, just make the damn thing researchable at the Twilight Council and leave it at it's current duration.
Ten seconds and researchable at Twilight Council sounds like a fantastic idea!
Intrigued by this WM change, looking forward to all the discussion from persons more knowledgeable than myself.
On July 16 2014 02:07 KatatoniK wrote: 10 second time warp? Blizzard pls, just make the damn thing researchable at the Twilight Council and leave it at it's current duration.
Ten seconds and researchable at Twilight Council sounds like a fantastic idea!
Intrigued by this WM change, looking forward to all the discussion from persons more knowledgeable than myself.
By current I meant as it is in-game right now and if it really has to take a hit then down to 20 or something, locking it in Twilight dents early blink attacks that everyone hates so much. Make Protoss choose between offence in the form of Blink, or defence in the form of TW.
Widow Mine splash radius increase The splash radius of 2 seems too much against Protoss worker lines. Also, we wonder if the full damage against Zerg being only an increase of 0.25 is too little.
So we’d like to make further adjustments and see if we can push some of these changes as much as possible. The changes we’d like to try next on the balance test map are:
Widow Mine going back to full splash damage and a 1.75 radius. (But they would still keep the +shields damage)
This lessens its power against Probes, returns the Widow Mine to how it used to be against Zerg, and provides big improvements against Protoss armies in the mid and late game.
WHY? Let them destroy protoss mineral lines, it forces the protoss to react. There's no problem with that. But the midgame strength of widow mines doesn't need to be buffed. The opposite really, they need to take away the +shield damage again. It took away an entire viable playstyle for protoss and gave nothing back for terran. They still play the exact same way but it's stronger now because you can also mix in mines. Nobody makes widow mines vs lategame protoss because colossus swipes clear them out before they even detonate. So in other words, they want to buff mines for the midgame AGAIN, where they're already strong enough (and too strong in certain scenarios, seeing how they entirely killed off templar builds).
I'm getting more and more frustrated every single time they push out one of these updates. They need to start looking at actual problems - what army does a terran transition to? How can terran deal with mass warpins lategame? If they want, how can terran pressure protoss early? But they keep buffing the midgame where terran's already at their strongest. I don't get it.
Widow Mine splash radius increase The splash radius of 2 seems too much against Protoss worker lines. Also, we wonder if the full damage against Zerg being only an increase of 0.25 is too little.
So we’d like to make further adjustments and see if we can push some of these changes as much as possible. The changes we’d like to try next on the balance test map are:
Widow Mine going back to full splash damage and a 1.75 radius. (But they would still keep the +shields damage)
This lessens its power against Probes, returns the Widow Mine to how it used to be against Zerg, and provides big improvements against Protoss armies in the mid and late game.
WHY? Let them destroy protoss mineral lines, it forces the protoss to react. There's no problem with that. But the midgame strength of widow mines doesn't need to be buffed. The opposite really, they need to take away the +shield damage again. It took away an entire viable playstyle for protoss and gave nothing back for terran. They still play the exact same way but it's stronger now because you can also mix in mines. Nobody makes widow mines vs lategame protoss because colossus swipes clear them out before they even detonate. So in other words, they want to buff mines for the midgame AGAIN, where they're already strong enough (and too strong in certain scenarios, seeing how they entirely killed off templar builds).
I'm getting more and more frustrated every single time they push out one of these updates.
I agree, if they keep the damage against shields and go back to 40 splash damage that will kill all chargelot-templar macro-openings (that we don't see all that often anymore anyways because of the earlier buff). My theory however is that they want to give Mines this strength to be able to deal with chargelot reinforcements and harass (mass warpins via warp prism etc.) in the lategame better which are still extremely strong. Not sure if that would work out or if it is the right way to approach this problem but we will see.
They gut punch the mine and throw out this hillariously miniscule 0.2 attack speed buff for the tank in the name of 'variety'...
...then after completely ignoring the game until a particular megathread appears, they decide for the first time in sc2 history to revert a bad patch that was poorly received for being random and unnecessary...
thus, all those months of Code B Flash were completely for naught.
We'll go back to slightly Terran-favored, incredibly-bitchy Zergs and nonstop biomine till lotv beta in october or something.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
On July 16 2014 02:35 Faust852 wrote: omg i'm so happy right now. Innovation best T world here we go again.
They're fixing widow mines, not hellbats :p
They fixed hellbats in the last patch though (and hellbats were only his strength in TvT; in TvZ he was particularily good with mines)
Can say I like that they react to the feedback and to tests. 10second Time Warp is probably going to be only of rare usage in all matchups - which I don't mind too much. It's not like it is particularily needed, outside of certain timing attacks that I don't want to see anyways. Not sure what to think of the widow mine revert to original. I guess the same as what I said back when they nerfed it, it's not going to break the matchup. It's just still nothing to help Terran with lategame massive baneling/mutalisk numbers and just aiming towards keeping the matchup as 1dimensional as can be, with the same 4units being used by Terran all game long, and Zerg maybe transitioning into some more or less redundant ultralisks after 15mins of MLB...
On July 16 2014 02:43 Genome852 wrote: Wait, WM will do full damage in its area of effect (rather than doing less damage at outer edges) AND retain shield damage bonus?
Even as a T player, that seems ridiculous against Protoss.
Yeah. I had to vote no b/c of that. I think the AOE unnerf is great for TvZ, but it's like they're not watching. Widow mines +shields are absurd against zealot/templar and buffing it anymore makes no sense. I'm okay with say a research to give +shield damage, but having it do that much stock damage is overkill.
Mines can't destroy mineral lines but oracles can... just a small distraction and in seconds an oracle can wipe an entire SCV line, why can't terrans have that ability and protoss can? Don't get me wrong, i don't like the idea, I don't like mines destroying protoss worker lines, i don't think a game should end like that as i don't agree with the damage oracles do.
On July 16 2014 02:46 pieroog wrote: Dear Terrans... 40+40 with instant damage just for 75/25 - please bear this in mind when commenting on PSI Storm with 80 over 4seconds
And with instant you mean after 2seconds, assuming the mine is even burrowed and you are continuously staying in a range of 5 for those 2seconds. And with Psi storm you mean a 9range ability...
Apples and Oranges... lots of ups and downs that make those things incomparable.
On July 16 2014 02:48 Nnoitra wrote: Mines can't destroy mineral lines but oracles can... just a small distraction and in seconds an oracle can wipe an entire SCV line, why can't terrans have that ability and protoss can? Don't get me wrong, i don't like the idea, I don't like mines destroying protoss worker lines, i don't think a game should end like that as i don't agree with the damage oracles do.
It's exactly the same for worker lines as it was before the mine nerf! Mines one-shoted them before the nerf. Mines one-shot them now. Dealing 40 or 80damage to a unit that has 40life makes no difference. So the question to ask is, were mines broken against Protoss mineral lines before the nerf? Hell no, by far not. It was a rather rare build...
On July 16 2014 02:46 pieroog wrote: Dear Terrans... 40+40 with instant damage just for 75/25 - please bear this in mind when commenting on PSI Storm with 80 over 4seconds
2s, not instant. half the range. Only one cast every 40s. Can't morph into 360 hp units with 40 atk. Can't OS medivacs/ghosts/raven with only one spell.
I suppose the small tweaks are nice and going to right direction (reverting uncalled nerfs and keeping mines effective vs P) with them. I would really like if they would make tank shots similar as mine shots (high singletarget + splash).
But overall, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Bigger problem in the game on Terran side is lack of lategame options/transitions like many of us are pointing out in several threads.
These changes probably don't change much in my low league gameplay, but I'm hoping to see more high level terrans play in WCS.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I really don't see how the aggression is unscoutable unless Protoss hides tech structures somewhere on the map - and even then it isn't unscoutable, you just don't scout it. You have scans. Obviously you would rather not scan, but if you drop a money scan, see what's coming, you can defend accordingly.
I feel like too many people are hardcore Day9 followers here.
You seriously think that Widow Mines are "ridiculous" against chargelots? Have you not been watching mine-based TvPs play out for the past months? Have you seen how bad a protoss has to micro in order to actually suffer from that?
This is a great change, and with the added bonus of not removing the extra shield damage, I think protoss at all levels will suddenly be much harder to play against terran. A much needed change...but I still feel like something needs to be done about tanks and/or immortals to make mech much more viable. Although Blizzard doesn't seem to be going in that direction whatsoever... In a game where the protoss basically knows you will go a particular tech route, and only needs to know whether you are going to attack or not, it's not very fair scouting-wise since all he has to do is check your number of barracks. Hell, you can basically assume aggression, since late-game is auto screwed if you decided to go bio into mid-game.
On July 16 2014 02:46 pieroog wrote: Dear Terrans... 40+40 with instant damage just for 75/25 - please bear this in mind when commenting on PSI Storm with 80 over 4seconds
2s, not instant. half the range. Only one cast every 40s. Can't morph into 360 hp units with 40 atk. Can't OS medivacs/ghosts/raven with only one spell.
i add some
Need to slowly burrow before the 2s goes off easily detected with toss having the best reveal hidden units (obs), easily destroyed with collosus long range potentially can only be useful in 1 engagement before it gets destroyed. Maybe the only decent AOE for terran
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I really don't see how the aggression is unscoutable unless Protoss hides tech structures somewhere on the map - and even then it isn't unscoutable, you just don't scout it. You have scans. Obviously you would rather not scan, but if you drop a money scan, see what's coming, you can defend accordingly.
i'm talking mainly about proxy, yes.
yes, it's theoretically scoutable. but you'll have to scout it in time too. it's really really difficult... and no fun at all if >50% of your TvPs are about scouting their hidden bullshit.
...while protoss almost literally doesnt have to build defensive units.
all this patch really does is help against zealot-heavy protoss armies... but hellbats already do the job very well, except only few people play that style (just like no one plays mine-heavy). to me the buff seems redundant and doesnt do too much to help terran.
(talking TvP only here. obviously the mine buff will be strong in TvZ.)
On July 16 2014 02:46 pieroog wrote: Dear Terrans... 40+40 with instant damage just for 75/25 - please bear this in mind when commenting on PSI Storm with 80 over 4seconds
Yes, but is unreliable and you can't reliably target things. Storm, on the other hand, can easily be controlled as to where the damage is allocated. Mines are a hit or miss.
On July 16 2014 02:46 pieroog wrote: Dear Terrans... 40+40 with instant damage just for 75/25 - please bear this in mind when commenting on PSI Storm with 80 over 4seconds
Yes, but is unreliable and you can't reliably target things. Storm, on the other hand, can easily be controlled as to where the damage is allocated. Mines are a hit or miss.
Mines are always hit... Storms can be dodged.
Again, apples and oranges. I'd just stop that comparison
Damn I hate WM, I'm a zerg player so I understand that I'm biased.
I understand the logic behind zerg having to micro and split too and I like that idea.
The actual problem is that its unbeatable, seriously old mines were just wotf. How do you split your zergling army against marines? The only hope of beating marines with zergling/baneling is surrounding the terran army. I you don't surround them them stutter step and split endlessly countering banelings with marines >_>
So what do you do as zerg, dance around the marines so you split for the widow mines fire while the WM and marines kills loads of your army or do you charge in and have your whole army go booom..... So either you lose or you lose. Seriously I get so mad just thinking about it, before the patch I was going BH just because of mine fields which made me lose because terrans just moved too fast, then I tried hydras, didn't help and the stupid range is bugged the WMs hit hydras sometimes even if they have range. My winrate vs T before patch was like 40% and thats not because I suck since I had good % against all other races in my league.
I guess I need to learn some all-ins or just leave vs terrans *sigh*.
On July 16 2014 03:19 Shuffleblade wrote: Damn I hate WM, I'm a zerg player so I understand that I'm biased.
I understand the logic behind zerg having to micro and split too and I like that idea.
The actual problem is that its unbeatable, seriously old mines were just wotf. How do you split your zergling army against marines? The only hope of beating marines with zergling/baneling is surrounding the terran army. I you don't surround them them stutter step and split endlessly countering banelings with marines >_>
So what do you do as zerg, dance around the marines so you split for the widow mines fire while the WM and marines kills loads of your army or do you charge in and have your whole army go booom..... So either you lose or you lose. Seriously I get so mad just thinking about it, before the patch I was going BH just because of mine fields which made me lose because terrans just moved too fast, then I tried hydras, didn't help and the stupid range is bugged the WMs hit hydras sometimes even if they have range. My winrate vs T before patch was like 40% and thats not because I suck since I had good % against all other races in my league.
I guess I need to learn some all-ins or just leave vs terrans *sigh*.
not sure if mines were actually imba, but the 4M style grew dull and boring pretty fast...
I really don't think terran, or the game, needs the ability to blow up 20 mutas in one second and more or less end the game instantly. As exciting as the old mines could be, they added such a huge random element and felt overly punishing. I'm still miffed they seem intent on just buffing the already good units as opposed to trying to make the bad ones better. I have no idea how the new mines will be for protoss either.
The issue for terran is how to deal with Zerg once they're on Hive tech with ultras and still have the 20+ mutas in the air. Not sure how this helps that situation.
The time warp double nerf kind of illustrates how absurd the ability is right now. The MSC being able to cast two of them really is the kicker, 2x 30 sec TW is just broken. Good change.
I like these changes. Time warp is going to be looked at a lot more closely and will require more skill to use properly. Not sure about the widow mine change, the wording on it is sort of odd.
On July 16 2014 02:46 pieroog wrote: Dear Terrans... 40+40 with instant damage just for 75/25 - please bear this in mind when commenting on PSI Storm with 80 over 4seconds
Yes, but is unreliable and you can't reliably target things. Storm, on the other hand, can easily be controlled as to where the damage is allocated. Mines are a hit or miss.
Mines are always hit... Storms can be dodged.
Again, apples and oranges. I'd just stop that comparison
I was talking about Mines being a hit or miss on damage potential. Yes, it can kill a bunch of stuff, but at the same time, it can shoot at something you don't want it to and just kill like one thing. Too random. Mines should not have that reload thing. They should just unburrow once an enemy gets in range of them and self-destruct. And they can have autocast too so the Terran can make them not activate them if need be. A little like bane mines.
And has anyone ever tried ghost-mech vs Protoss? I find that ghosts+thor+hellbats+ravens are extremely good versus late game Protoss. Bring along some SCVs too.
On July 16 2014 02:46 pieroog wrote: Dear Terrans... 40+40 with instant damage just for 75/25 - please bear this in mind when commenting on PSI Storm with 80 over 4seconds
And to add one final(?) one to the list, the mine's randomness means that it is as likely to kill your own stuff as the enemy's. You would have to be a stupid Toss'er to kill your own units with storm, especially as most Protoss units have a lot of HP.
I prefer these tweaks to the Thor/mine/timewarp than the previous ones by a lot.
Actually the 4M style in hots has always been here againts Zerg before this buff, it's just that the effectiveness comes into question versus getting a marauder or hellbat instead. Bomber showed us against violet the heavy marauder style (10 rax on 3 bases) instead of mines, which was very successful.
It makes sense as Z needs 5 banes to kill a marauder, while mines may only random kill 1-2 banes with few lings before the buff.
So, transformation servos when armoury is built AND reverted widow mine change? How does either help TvP? Why screw the Zerg player over? It's not like TvZ is the big bugbear that TvP is.
On July 16 2014 03:19 Shuffleblade wrote: Damn I hate WM, I'm a zerg player so I understand that I'm biased.
I understand the logic behind zerg having to micro and split too and I like that idea.
The actual problem is that its unbeatable, seriously old mines were just wotf. How do you split your zergling army against marines? The only hope of beating marines with zergling/baneling is surrounding the terran army. I you don't surround them them stutter step and split endlessly countering banelings with marines >_>
So what do you do as zerg, dance around the marines so you split for the widow mines fire while the WM and marines kills loads of your army or do you charge in and have your whole army go booom..... So either you lose or you lose. Seriously I get so mad just thinking about it, before the patch I was going BH just because of mine fields which made me lose because terrans just moved too fast, then I tried hydras, didn't help and the stupid range is bugged the WMs hit hydras sometimes even if they have range. My winrate vs T before patch was like 40% and thats not because I suck since I had good % against all other races in my league.
I guess I need to learn some all-ins or just leave vs terrans *sigh*.
not sure if mines were actually imba, but the 4M style grew dull and boring pretty fast...
On July 16 2014 03:19 Shuffleblade wrote: Damn I hate WM, I'm a zerg player so I understand that I'm biased.
I understand the logic behind zerg having to micro and split too and I like that idea.
The actual problem is that its unbeatable, seriously old mines were just wotf. How do you split your zergling army against marines? The only hope of beating marines with zergling/baneling is surrounding the terran army. I you don't surround them them stutter step and split endlessly countering banelings with marines >_>
So what do you do as zerg, dance around the marines so you split for the widow mines fire while the WM and marines kills loads of your army or do you charge in and have your whole army go booom..... So either you lose or you lose. Seriously I get so mad just thinking about it, before the patch I was going BH just because of mine fields which made me lose because terrans just moved too fast, then I tried hydras, didn't help and the stupid range is bugged the WMs hit hydras sometimes even if they have range. My winrate vs T before patch was like 40% and thats not because I suck since I had good % against all other races in my league.
I guess I need to learn some all-ins or just leave vs terrans *sigh*.
not sure if mines were actually imba, but the 4M style grew dull and boring pretty fast...
i personally wouldnt wanna go back to that era...
People still play 4M almost every game, only difference being that terrans aren't in any tournaments
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I really don't see how the aggression is unscoutable unless Protoss hides tech structures somewhere on the map - and even then it isn't unscoutable, you just don't scout it. You have scans. Obviously you would rather not scan, but if you drop a money scan, see what's coming, you can defend accordingly.
...while protoss almost literally doesnt have to build defensive units.
If a Protoss doesn't build any or very few defensive units early game PvT a decent stimmed Marine/Marauder force can kill them outright, even WITH Photon Overcharge. Stim absolutely destroys P armies and I've lost many games to Terran counter aggression when I've gone for Oracle or tried to poke.
It's all in the scouting, note pylons, if you don't see 3 pylons when you scout with your reaper or whatever. Something somewhere is proxied, go look for it. If it's a Stargate, that's easy to hold, DT's? Easy to hold.
Blink, however is the problem, as a Protoss I'll admit, early game blink attacks are dumb, they're dumb in PvP and they're even dumber in PvT. That's why time warp doesn't need a reduction it needs locking to Twilight Council research. One or the other, simple as imo.
On July 16 2014 02:43 Genome852 wrote: Wait, WM will do full damage in its area of effect (rather than doing less damage at outer edges) AND retain shield damage bonus?
Even as a T player, that seems ridiculous against Protoss. I want the old WM, but this is 'balance' via sledgehammer rather than scalpel.
Maybe you've missed the "sledgehammer" Protoss has hit Terran over the head with the last 8 months. We need more aggressive changes. I disagree with you b/c I'd rather not have another incident like when Blizzard increased the tank attack speed by .000000002.
I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
I'm ok with the time warp nerf, but if the issue was terran crybabies, they used to whine before the mothership core even existed, so that won't be fixed.
On July 16 2014 03:43 KingAlphard wrote: I'm ok with the time warp nerf, but if the issue was terran crybabies, they used to whine before the mothership core even existed, so that won't be fixed.
On July 16 2014 02:07 KatatoniK wrote: 10 second time warp? Blizzard pls, just make the damn thing researchable at the Twilight Council and leave it at it's current duration.
Actually this sounds like a fantastic idea. That way, you don't have to worry about Protoss being too strong until they get to the all-in or nothing phase.
On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote: I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
Don't worry, the second a Terran wins a tournament they will nerf them. That's the nature of Terran: For every one buff, they get two nerfs.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I really don't see how the aggression is unscoutable unless Protoss hides tech structures somewhere on the map - and even then it isn't unscoutable, you just don't scout it. You have scans. Obviously you would rather not scan, but if you drop a money scan, see what's coming, you can defend accordingly.
...while protoss almost literally doesnt have to build defensive units.
If a Protoss doesn't build any or very few defensive units early game PvT a decent stimmed Marine/Marauder force can kill them outright, even WITH Photon Overcharge. Stim absolutely destroys P armies and I've lost many games to Terran counter aggression when I've gone for Oracle or tried to poke.
It's all in the scouting, note pylons, if you don't see 3 pylons when you scout with your reaper or whatever. Something somewhere is proxied, go look for it. If it's a Stargate, that's easy to hold, DT's? Easy to hold.
Blink, however is the problem, as a Protoss I'll admit, early game blink attacks are dumb, they're dumb in PvP and they're even dumber in PvT. That's why time warp doesn't need a reduction it needs locking to Twilight Council research. One or the other, simple as imo.
see, you're a protoss. you dont know how this stuff feels as a terran.
yes, proxy stargate is easy to hold. yes, DT is easy to hold. but you have to scout it in time. in order to do that, you'll need 2 units scouting the map for proxy and even then there's a great chance you simply won't find the hidden tech in time.
on top of this, there's stuff like blink, proxy robo, 2base 4gate, etc etc.... all of them needing very different reactions.
it's simply not very enjoyable to play TvP like this.
On July 16 2014 03:43 KingAlphard wrote: I'm ok with the time warp nerf, but if the issue was terran crybabies, they used to whine before the mothership core even existed, so that won't be fixed.
Sad zealot thread. Go there.
No, I actually said that I agree with the patch, unlike terran players who always have a reason to complain about everything.
On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote: I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
I have to second your feelings almost exactly. I've always been a fan of going ling/bane/muta, but with the new hellbat timings and reverting mines back to the way they were, I just keep feeling like zerg keeps getting pushed into making roaches. Now, roaches aren't the worst unit ever, but they're probably the most boring. I don't know, maybe it's also because I'm a scrub diamond player and don't know anything.
On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote: I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
Welcome to SC2 from a Terran's perspective. If I am not super careful, 6-8 banes are enough to obliterate half my forces too.
On July 16 2014 03:43 KingAlphard wrote: I'm ok with the time warp nerf, but if the issue was terran crybabies, they used to whine before the mothership core even existed, so that won't be fixed.
Sad zealot thread. Go there.
No, I actually said that I agree with the patch, unlike terran players who always have a reason to complain about everything.
Not all Terran players are the same, but I mean do I have to play Captain Obvious and explain this?
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I really don't see how the aggression is unscoutable unless Protoss hides tech structures somewhere on the map - and even then it isn't unscoutable, you just don't scout it. You have scans. Obviously you would rather not scan, but if you drop a money scan, see what's coming, you can defend accordingly.
...while protoss almost literally doesnt have to build defensive units.
If a Protoss doesn't build any or very few defensive units early game PvT a decent stimmed Marine/Marauder force can kill them outright, even WITH Photon Overcharge. Stim absolutely destroys P armies and I've lost many games to Terran counter aggression when I've gone for Oracle or tried to poke.
It's all in the scouting, note pylons, if you don't see 3 pylons when you scout with your reaper or whatever. Something somewhere is proxied, go look for it. If it's a Stargate, that's easy to hold, DT's? Easy to hold.
Blink, however is the problem, as a Protoss I'll admit, early game blink attacks are dumb, they're dumb in PvP and they're even dumber in PvT. That's why time warp doesn't need a reduction it needs locking to Twilight Council research. One or the other, simple as imo.
see, you're a protoss. you dont know how this stuff feels as a terran.
yes, proxy stargate is easy to hold. yes, DT is easy to hold. but you have to scout it in time. in order to do that, you'll need 2 units scouting the map for proxy and even then there's a great chance you simply won't find the hidden tech in time.
on top of this, there's stuff like blink, proxy robo, 2base 4gate, etc etc.... all of them needing very different reactions.
it's simply not very enjoyable to play TvP like this.
And where is the "insta-death" button for Terran? No detection for proxy DT...insta-death. No turrets for proxy oracle...insta-death. No bunkers for blink all-in...insta-death. Less than 3 bunkers for 2 base immortal all-in...insta-death. The list goes on (like you said etc etc). All of which are very easy to execute. Why can't we have an insta-death button for TvP.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I really don't see how the aggression is unscoutable unless Protoss hides tech structures somewhere on the map - and even then it isn't unscoutable, you just don't scout it. You have scans. Obviously you would rather not scan, but if you drop a money scan, see what's coming, you can defend accordingly.
...while protoss almost literally doesnt have to build defensive units.
If a Protoss doesn't build any or very few defensive units early game PvT a decent stimmed Marine/Marauder force can kill them outright, even WITH Photon Overcharge. Stim absolutely destroys P armies and I've lost many games to Terran counter aggression when I've gone for Oracle or tried to poke.
It's all in the scouting, note pylons, if you don't see 3 pylons when you scout with your reaper or whatever. Something somewhere is proxied, go look for it. If it's a Stargate, that's easy to hold, DT's? Easy to hold.
Blink, however is the problem, as a Protoss I'll admit, early game blink attacks are dumb, they're dumb in PvP and they're even dumber in PvT. That's why time warp doesn't need a reduction it needs locking to Twilight Council research. One or the other, simple as imo.
see, you're a protoss. you dont know how this stuff feels as a terran.
yes, proxy stargate is easy to hold. yes, DT is easy to hold. but you have to scout it in time. in order to do that, you'll need 2 units scouting the map for proxy and even then there's a great chance you simply won't find the hidden tech in time.
on top of this, there's stuff like blink, proxy robo, 2base 4gate, etc etc.... all of them needing very different reactions.
it's simply not very enjoyable to play TvP like this.
Seriously, Protoss players know how that feels. That's exactly what we experienced early on in WoL. The only difference everybody sucked compared to now.
The funny thing is, yes zerg just A-moves... Yes thats true, thats because we can't micro lol.
You try stuttersteping your zerglings away from the marines and mines while splitting your lings. Big help that will do you, you see the zerglings are melee. You want Z to micro, I wouldn't mind that at all, then give us ranged units that aren't totally trashed in both matchups.
Forcing Z to micro lings more than is already done with flanks and surrounds is just silly, what are we supposed to do, spread them out and hod position while they stares the marines down? Bound to do tons of damage I'm sure.
A 10 second Time Warp is worth 100 energy? I think it's reasonable to go back to 75 here. Reasonably nerfing is one thing, nerfing something so that it's not viable is another. IMO Blizzard has often made this mistake.
I personally believe that when TvZ was at its most balanced in HotS was before the Mine nerf but after the Overseer buff. So now it's going back to that stage and I think that's great. I'm not sure how the new Hellbat will fit into this picture. Of course Terran will probably get a huge boost in TvZ win rate for a little while, but what will it look like once things stabilize is another story.
As for the Shield damage splash, keep in mind: even before Mine is nerfed, the defensive fast Forge opening has already proved to be very effective against Drop openings. Yes this will probably kill the 0 detection Blink builds, but frankly those builds are way too outrageous, nobody will miss them. Yes this will be even more effective against mass Zealots, but Templar openings are pretty much dead anyways.
On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote: I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
Welcome to SC2 from a Terran's perspective. If I am not super careful, 6-8 banes are enough to obliterate half my forces too.
No. The choice is yours whether you want to have to be careful against banelings. + Show Spoiler +
On July 16 2014 04:00 Shuffleblade wrote: The funny thing is, yes zerg just A-moves... Yes thats true, thats because we can't micro lol.
You try stuttersteping your zerglings away from the marines and mines while splitting your lings. Big help that will do you, you see the zerglings are melee. You want Z to micro, I wouldn't mind that at all, then give us ranged units that aren't totally trashed in both matchups.
Forcing Z to micro lings more than is already done with flanks and surrounds is just silly, what are we supposed to do, spread them out and hod position while they stares the marines down? Bound to do tons of damage I'm sure.
Many top zergs have figured out how to trigger mine shots with a well spread, small force. You also often see more friendly fire damage than what has happened to the zerg.
I guess you could put lings on hold position and see how that goes?
On July 16 2014 04:00 Shuffleblade wrote: The funny thing is, yes zerg just A-moves... Yes thats true, thats because we can't micro lol.
You try stuttersteping your zerglings away from the marines and mines while splitting your lings. Big help that will do you, you see the zerglings are melee. You want Z to micro, I wouldn't mind that at all, then give us ranged units that aren't totally trashed in both matchups.
Forcing Z to micro lings more than is already done with flanks and surrounds is just silly, what are we supposed to do, spread them out and hod position while they stares the marines down? Bound to do tons of damage I'm sure.
Did you see the game where Scarlett just a-move shit tons of banes from 1 direction over Bomber? What flank was there?
Did you also see some of Jaedong's ling micro against the mines? Yeah, those were fucking awesome.
On July 16 2014 04:00 Shuffleblade wrote: The funny thing is, yes zerg just A-moves... Yes thats true, thats because we can't micro lol.
You try stuttersteping your zerglings away from the marines and mines while splitting your lings. Big help that will do you, you see the zerglings are melee. You want Z to micro, I wouldn't mind that at all, then give us ranged units that aren't totally trashed in both matchups.
Forcing Z to micro lings more than is already done with flanks and surrounds is just silly, what are we supposed to do, spread them out and hod position while they stares the marines down? Bound to do tons of damage I'm sure.
Considering we saw a lot of roaches hydras compositions recently (For example bomber vs violet game 4, or even against protoss where roaches hydras are a viable option in early-mid game), what you are trying to say doesn't really make sense.
On July 16 2014 04:00 Shuffleblade wrote: The funny thing is, yes zerg just A-moves... Yes thats true, thats because we can't micro lol.
You try stuttersteping your zerglings away from the marines and mines while splitting your lings. Big help that will do you, you see the zerglings are melee. You want Z to micro, I wouldn't mind that at all, then give us ranged units that aren't totally trashed in both matchups.
Forcing Z to micro lings more than is already done with flanks and surrounds is just silly, what are we supposed to do, spread them out and hod position while they stares the marines down? Bound to do tons of damage I'm sure.
why don't you try to learn to micro your lings then? it adds excitement and skill to your game. Remember why brood war was more exciting than sc2 is because of the skill and control of BW players. Now if we would put that on sc2 then it would be awesome
On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote: I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
Welcome to SC2 from a Terran's perspective. If I am not super careful, 6-8 banes are enough to obliterate half my forces too.
No. The choice is yours whether you want to have to be careful against banelings. + Show Spoiler +
Are you joking? And then I have to worry about not being able to put any real pressure without committing a slow-moving, slow-producing, and expensive army. Then if you hate mines, the choice is yours to play Roach/Hydra. Good luck with drops.
On July 16 2014 04:00 Shuffleblade wrote: The funny thing is, yes zerg just A-moves... Yes thats true, thats because we can't micro lol.
You try stuttersteping your zerglings away from the marines and mines while splitting your lings. Big help that will do you, you see the zerglings are melee. You want Z to micro, I wouldn't mind that at all, then give us ranged units that aren't totally trashed in both matchups.
Forcing Z to micro lings more than is already done with flanks and surrounds is just silly, what are we supposed to do, spread them out and hod position while they stares the marines down? Bound to do tons of damage I'm sure.
Early hots showed Z micro against mines, triggering them with split groups of lings. With current mines, often the Z will just attack move over them and take the hits because their APM may be better spent elsewhere.
On July 16 2014 02:40 PineapplePizza wrote: This is so damn weird.
They gut punch the mine and throw out this hillariously miniscule 0.2 attack speed buff for the tank in the name of 'variety'...
...then after completely ignoring the game until a particular megathread appears, they decide for the first time in sc2 history to revert a bad patch that was poorly received for being random and unnecessary...
thus, all those months of Code B Flash were completely for naught.
We'll go back to slightly Terran-favored, incredibly-bitchy Zergs and nonstop biomine till lotv beta in october or something.
If you honestly think the LOTV beta will come any sooner than spring 2015 you are crazy
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I think a simple missile turrets no longer requiring an ebay would to wonder for early game terran.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I think a simple missile turrets no longer requiring an ebay would to wonder for early game terran.
that would be a huuuuuuuuge change in 2 match ups.
It’s a minor improvement to players who aren’t able to micro Thors against Mutalisks in combat...
Disregarding how the Thor AA change makes generally more sense, this exemplifies the issue with most Blizzard "balance" patches. They should be making changes to the game where only better players are stronger. Even though it's just a minor change, way to even the already flat playing field.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I think a simple missile turrets no longer requiring an ebay would to wonder for early game terran.
that would be a huuuuuuuuge change in 2 match ups.
In TvP it would reduce the randomness factor of openings, banshees openings will certainly be hurt but who the hell doesn't have ebays when mutas arrive? I can only see good coming from it.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I think a simple missile turrets no longer requiring an ebay would to wonder for early game terran.
that would be a huuuuuuuuge change in 2 match ups.
In TvP it would reduce the randomness factor of openings, banshees openings will certainly be hurt but who the hell doesn't have ebays when mutas arrive? I can only see good coming from it.
tvt and banshee openings. would make raven openings pointless too which would shake the metagame quite a bit. vZ you need ebays earlier than mutas except if you're meching
On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote: I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
Welcome to SC2 from a Terran's perspective. If I am not super careful, 6-8 banes are enough to obliterate half my forces too.
No. The choice is yours whether you want to have to be careful against banelings. + Show Spoiler +
Are you joking? And then I have to worry about not being able to put any real pressure without committing a slow-moving, slow-producing, and expensive army.
*until you are maxed with it. Last time I checked a win counts as a win, regardless of when it was acquired. The question is how reliable you can win with it. Very reliably, (see players like Flash, BByong...) --> you have a good alternative choice
On July 16 2014 04:09 plogamer wrote: Then if you hate mines, the choice is yours to play Roach/Hydra. Good luck with drops.
Exactly, it's not reliable as a style. The best roach/hydra user in the world (Hyun) is far from the level of success that players that don't use it have. --> the alternative choice isn't good
On July 16 2014 01:56 Yello wrote: wow what. Getting back the mines from HotS-release against Zerg is cool. But keeping the +shields damage means that mines would be really strong against Toss after that. It's like 40+40 damage in close radius (<1.25) and still 40+10 in full 1.75 then. Combined with the huge time warp nerf that would change a looooooooot. Still not the things most people want to see changed (except maybe the mine returning to it's old stage) though
To be honest, that kind of damage change for Widow Mines is necessary in the match up in my opinion. As it currently stands, I, as a Protoss, can a-move my army of zealots through a widow mine field and still be able to engage my opponent's army relatively fine. This change should move the matchup into more of a BW style of play in my opinion where the Protoss player will need to be more careful versus the mine and make for more interested and micro-intensive engagements on the Protoss side of things. I will agree that the Time Warp change seems unneeded and I wish they would look more into Photon Overcharge rather than Time Warp because Photon Overcharge is just too strong at the moment.
On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote: I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
Welcome to SC2 from a Terran's perspective. If I am not super careful, 6-8 banes are enough to obliterate half my forces too.
No. The choice is yours whether you want to have to be careful against banelings. + Show Spoiler +
Are you joking? And then I have to worry about not being able to put any real pressure without committing a slow-moving, slow-producing, and expensive army.
*until you are maxed with it. Last time I checked a win counts as a win, regardless of when it was acquired. The question is how reliable you can win with it. Very reliably, (see players like Flash, BByong...) --> you have a good alternative choice
On July 16 2014 04:09 plogamer wrote: Then if you hate mines, the choice is yours to play Roach/Hydra. Good luck with drops.
Exactly, it's not reliable as a style. The best roach/hydra user in the world (Hyun) is far from the level of success that players that don't use it have. --> the alternative choice isn't good
or maybe hyun is just a lesser player than SK/Soo ? (i'm agreeing with you btw if you think that roach hydra is quite a gimmick that's map dependant)
On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote: I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
Welcome to SC2 from a Terran's perspective. If I am not super careful, 6-8 banes are enough to obliterate half my forces too.
No. The choice is yours whether you want to have to be careful against banelings. + Show Spoiler +
Are you joking? And then I have to worry about not being able to put any real pressure without committing a slow-moving, slow-producing, and expensive army.
*until you are maxed with it. Last time I checked a win counts as a win, regardless of when it was acquired. The question is how reliable you can win with it. Very reliably, (see players like Flash, BByong...) --> you have a good alternative choice
On July 16 2014 04:09 plogamer wrote: Then if you hate mines, the choice is yours to play Roach/Hydra. Good luck with drops.
Exactly, it's not reliable as a style. The best roach/hydra user in the world (Hyun) is far from the level of success that players that don't use it have. --> the alternative choice isn't good
or maybe hyun is just a lesser player than SK/Soo ? (i'm agreeing with you btw that roach hydra is quite a gimmick that's map dependant)
Of course he isn't as good. I'm just being a dick to someone pretending that Terran==running marines into banelings.
On July 16 2014 04:35 SatedSC2 wrote: I think that's too much on Time Warp. To be honest, making it a Cybernetics Core upgrade would be a much better idea than nerfing the spell further (the previous nerf was fine); that would make it something that can't be used in conjunction with one-base all-ins (no one is going to go Time Warp instead of Warp Gate) and makes it hard to squeeze into ultra-fast two-base all-ins such as Blink Stalkers in PvT.
If they're going to revert the Mine nerf then they should revert the +Shields buff so that Templar openings can be used again.
But who is going to spend something like 100/100 for the ability to use 2time warps instead of 2recalls/POs, when you get up to 4forcefields for 50/100? I think making it an upgrade will just remove it from gameplay at all. Also it needlessly nerfs early zealot/stalker/MsC pressure extremely hard against Zerg. While even a 10second time warp when well-used is probably enough to kill a queen with that attack.
On July 16 2014 04:35 SatedSC2 wrote: I think that's too much on Time Warp. To be honest, making it a Cybernetics Core upgrade would be a much better idea than nerfing the spell further (the previous nerf was fine); that would make it something that can't be used in conjunction with one-base all-ins (no one is going to go Time Warp instead of Warp Gate) and makes it hard to squeeze into ultra-fast two-base all-ins such as Blink Stalkers in PvT.
If they're going to revert the Mine nerf then they should revert the +Shields buff so that Templar openings can be used again.
That would be kind of missing the point, which is to make terran stronger and protoss weaker.
Time warp should be 30 seconds but makes your units faster rather than the other units slower. Like a localized stim. That way the opponent can react and run, or you can out-micro them. Helps the better player win - and that's what SC2 should be all about.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I think a simple missile turrets no longer requiring an ebay would to wonder for early game terran.
they would still suck against Mutas though. I would make them cost 75 minerals, since they kinda devolved into only buys you time defense.
I think they just give up on making the mines more fun and instead just focusing on balance right now. Seriously, even though TvZ was balance before the mine nerf, the match up is completely broken (very one dimensional). Every TvZ during the period is the same; either the Terran kills the Zerg with parade push, or he doesn't and die. Also, the mines got too much bang for their bucks back in the days (and after this patch) just like the WoL infestors. The match up as a whole may be balance, but if you need something like this to hold the match up together, you know something is wrong about the Terran race. Man, looks like they have a lot to fix in LotV.
1.5, 1.75, 2 makes a lot more sense than 1.75, flat. Really, I think they should give a very slight nerf to muta regen. Perhaps make it take 3, 5, or 10 seconds before kicking in. Before then, it can be at the normal zerg regen rate or something.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I think a simple missile turrets no longer requiring an ebay would to wonder for early game terran.
On July 16 2014 04:45 newbornducky wrote: I think they just give up on making the mines more fun and instead just focusing on balance right now. Seriously, even though TvZ was balance before the mine nerf, the match up is completely broken (very one dimensional). Every TvZ during the period is the same; either the Terran kills the Zerg with parade push, or he doesn't and die. Also, the mines got too much bang for their bucks back in the days (and after this patch) just like the WoL infestors. The match up as a whole may be balance, but if you need something like this to hold the match up together, you know something is wrong about the Terran race. Man, looks like they have a lot to fix in LotV.
Terran needs a late game buff. Not some mid game buff that can potentially lead to a weaker late game for the opponent. Terran needs some way to make the Thor viable amongst other things. I say bring buff snipe, just not as strong as back in the day. And maybe not ignore all armor, but just make it 0.5? Idk, just throwing out ideas to create a more diverse tvz.
Also, to those who say this is too much vs toss... I completely disagree. Terran lacks good AoE against toss. It's something that terrans need against P. Regardless of it being really strong against templar focused armies in the mid game.
Ugh I just hope they make roach/hydra the "blizzard approved" unit comp for ZvT in Void... I can't stand baneling/creep/muta based play that is all about who makes the first big mistake.
On July 16 2014 04:49 algue wrote: Bring back GomTvT please, I never enjoy Sc2 more than during this period
2010 - early 2012 SC2 was the best, but I think it was because the game had a much larger player / viewerbase and wasn't figured out yet. When people started splitting marines against banelings for the first time, it was mindblowing LOL.
That feeling can only come from a new game... maybe SC3 in 10 years...
The funny thing is what Terran in their right mind would want to attack zergs on creep. All the zergs complaining of needing to micro their units are in need of getting out of gold league. The Terran needs to be the aggressor to push back creep if we do nothing zergs can spread it over the map making it impossible to attack since a moved banes will always land. Also fast hive tech will go uncontested since if terrans don't force zergs to make units zergs build a huge bank of economy and a move with mass ultras or broods. I think this buff for terrans is a step on the right path. As for TvP mine drops should be ok as well since double forge templar openings can be defended with cannons right? Has anyone faced a two base toss fast double forge( for upgrades and cannons) twilight all in making only zealots and archons? Without obs or robo i might add, these mines will help a lot... Idk why tosses complain on the mine buff since some do dirty all ins and mines counter that or that they are forced to build some static defense to defend vs mine drops when terrans have to mandatorily make turrets to defend oracles or dts
On July 16 2014 04:49 algue wrote: Bring back GomTvT please, I never enjoy Sc2 more than during this period
2010 - early 2012 SC2 was the best, but I think it was because the game had a much larger player / viewerbase and wasn't figured out yet. When people started splitting marines against banelings for the first time, it was mindblowing LOL.
That feeling can only come from a new game... maybe SC3 in 10 years...
BW is older than 10 years and is still mindblowing.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I think a simple missile turrets no longer requiring an ebay would to wonder for early game terran.
that actually sounds great... cool suggestion.
i dont see any real negative sides for this buff.
Protoss will flip if their build order auto-win goes away. Unscouted dt's or unexpected oracles just flat out win.
2010 - early 2012 SC2 was the best, but I think it was because the game had a much larger player / viewerbase and wasn't figured out yet. When people started splitting marines against banelings for the first time, it was mindblowing LOL.
That feeling can only come from a new game...
Something like this will happen again in SC2 I ensure you. Happened in BW, happened in WC3.
Overall am happier with where they are going with things. I hate the idea of the Widow Mine to be a Protoss hater Mine. It seems this is really needed vs Mutas and Zerg micro is something we need, to make Zergs stand out from each other.
Only thing I'm a sad Zealot about is the Time Warp, it's a super nice change for nerfing all ins and I always kind of felt like it was very powerful. However I'd rather it to effect friendly units aswell or at least reduce the mana cost or something.
2010 - early 2012 SC2 was the best, but I think it was because the game had a much larger player / viewerbase and wasn't figured out yet. When people started splitting marines against banelings for the first time, it was mindblowing LOL.
That feeling can only come from a new game...
Something like this will happen again in SC2 I ensure you. Happened in BW, happened in WC3.
Overall am happier with where they are going with things. I hate the idea of the Widow Mine to be a Protoss hater Mine. It seems this is really needed vs Mutas and Zerg micro is something we need, to make Zergs stand out from each other.
Only thing I'm a sad Zealot about is the Time Warp, it's a super nice change for nerfing all ins and I always kind of felt like it was very powerful. However I'd rather it to effect friendly units aswell or at least reduce the mana cost or something.
that actually sounds great... cool suggestion.
i dont see any real negative sides for this buff.
I love this idea, because I believe the idea of "high infastructure costs" to counter certain openings per se makes early game more coinflippy. Like if you need to invest X amounts of money to beat build Y, but your investment is totally useless if the opponent does build Z, and you have no reliable way of knowing whether he does build Y or Z, then the game becomes more coinflippy.
So IMO turrets should indeed be buildable without Ebay, but in this proces, I would argue for further adjustments as well;
- Buffs to DT's - Buff to Banshee's - Nerf to turrets (perhaps with an upgrade that cancels out the nerf).
Otherwise, I do think it will be too easy for terran to reflect mos harass. I still believe harass openings needs to do damage, but as long as terran has a turret, then he will be able to survive which for me is the important part.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I think a simple missile turrets no longer requiring an ebay would to wonder for early game terran.
that actually sounds great... cool suggestion.
i dont see any real negative sides for this buff.
It might make DTs excessively wimpy. I think a better solution would be to make turrets cheaper and maybe like 5 seconds quicker to build, so that they make for an easier emergency reaction, and also serve as better defenders vs Mutas.
they do not make for exciting or interesting games, they only produce bland parade pushes, blind forward aggression, since one widow mine connection generally pays for the mine and if it fires more than once the terran player made a massive gain on the resource investment. Adding power and focus to a unit which often goes uncontrolled and automated from players seems wrong to me.
I think all AOE in the game needs nerf, so that people can actually micro their units rather than just amove blobs of exploding acid lasers into each other.
On July 16 2014 05:38 darkscream wrote: widow mine unnerf do not want
they do not make for exciting or interesting games, they only produce bland parade pushes, blind forward aggression, since one widow mine connection generally pays for the mine and if it fires more than once the terran player made a massive gain on the resource investment. Adding power and focus to a unit which often goes uncontrolled and automated from players seems wrong to me.
I think all AOE in the game needs nerf, so that people can actually micro their units rather than just amove blobs of exploding acid lasers into each other.
Consider reading DWF's article because he basically clears out a lot of the nonsense coming from ignorant people who neither understands how the micro-requirements of the Mine nor the TvZ meta prior to the Widow Mine nerf. Bascially, everything in your post is either wrong or extremely exaggerated.
If you don't like the Widow Mine becasue it punishes mistake quite harshly, that's a valid opinion, however your opinion isn't based on how it actually works at all.
2010 - early 2012 SC2 was the best, but I think it was because the game had a much larger player / viewerbase and wasn't figured out yet. When people started splitting marines against banelings for the first time, it was mindblowing LOL.
That feeling can only come from a new game...
Something like this will happen again in SC2 I ensure you. Happened in BW, happened in WC3.
Overall am happier with where they are going with things. I hate the idea of the Widow Mine to be a Protoss hater Mine. It seems this is really needed vs Mutas and Zerg micro is something we need, to make Zergs stand out from each other.
Only thing I'm a sad Zealot about is the Time Warp, it's a super nice change for nerfing all ins and I always kind of felt like it was very powerful. However I'd rather it to effect friendly units aswell or at least reduce the mana cost or something.
I love this idea, because I believe the idea of "high infastructure costs" to counter certain openings per se makes early game more coinflippy. Like if you need to invest X amounts of money to beat build Y, but your investment is totally useless if the opponent does build Z, and you have no reliable way of knowing whether he does build Y or Z, then the game becomes more coinflippy.
So IMO turrets should indeed be buildable without Ebay, but in this proces, I would argue for further adjustments as well;
- Buffs to DT's - Buff to Banshee's - Nerf to turrets (perhaps with an upgrade that cancels out the nerf).
Otherwise, I do think it will be too easy for terran to reflect mos harass. I still believe harass openings needs to do damage, but as long as terran has a turret, then he will be able to survive which for me is the important part.
You can go without the DT buff imo, there is no specific buff that you can give it that would answer a better turret, as the interaction DT/turret is basically be seen/not be seen. I guess you could make it a little less good vs oracles, in the same spirit as vs banshee.
T vs Z was a fun match to watch when wm had there orginal splash done but later on zerg was already adapting to this style play toward late game before blizz made the patch and made it worse for terran. Im hoping wm go back to the orginal hots damage and I wouldnt care about any other buff. If any one say wm would make it terran favor they should go check out forgg vs stephano match and remeber wm are a double edge sword they can work with u or not. If blizz makes a different change to wm I hope it like a burrowed baneling does splash damage within its area instead chasing the zergling that activated it.
Widow Mine splash radius increase The splash radius of 2 seems too much against Protoss worker lines. Also, we wonder if the full damage against Zerg being only an increase of 0.25 is too little.
So we’d like to make further adjustments and see if we can push some of these changes as much as possible. The changes we’d like to try next on the balance test map are:
Widow Mine going back to full splash damage and a 1.75 radius. (But they would still keep the +shields damage)
This lessens its power against Probes, returns the Widow Mine to how it used to be against Zerg, and provides big improvements against Protoss armies in the mid and late game.
WHY? Let them destroy protoss mineral lines, it forces the protoss to react. There's no problem with that. But the midgame strength of widow mines doesn't need to be buffed. The opposite really, they need to take away the +shield damage again. It took away an entire viable playstyle for protoss and gave nothing back for terran. They still play the exact same way but it's stronger now because you can also mix in mines. Nobody makes widow mines vs lategame protoss because colossus swipes clear them out before they even detonate. So in other words, they want to buff mines for the midgame AGAIN, where they're already strong enough (and too strong in certain scenarios, seeing how they entirely killed off templar builds).
I'm getting more and more frustrated every single time they push out one of these updates. They need to start looking at actual problems - what army does a terran transition to? How can terran deal with mass warpins lategame? If they want, how can terran pressure protoss early? But they keep buffing the midgame where terran's already at their strongest. I don't get it.
This. 100% Agree. I think its pretty simle and the patches in the last year just confirm this. Blizzard doesnt understand the game they are balancing unfortunatelly, which is sad. I really hope they step it up, but with each balance patch the hope gets slimmer. Good thing is, that the people here have some really good suggestions, so if they listen, then maybe
You can go without the DT buff imo, there is no specific buff that you can give it that would answer a better turret, as the interaction DT/turret is basically be seen/not be seen. I guess you could make it a little less good vs oracles, in the same spirit as vs banshee.
Maybe. I just don't consider it to be that good in itself. Personally, I wouldn't mind DT's being a bit faster as it allows a bit more potential in the hands of a good player.
It's ofc pretty good already as lategame-harass in TvP, but I think that arises more due to other late game balance issues in TvP, which I rather deal with in itself once LOTV comes out.
T vs Z was a fun match to watch when wm had there orginal splash done but later on zerg was already adapting to this style play toward late game before blizz made the patch and made it worse for terran. Im hoping wm go back to the orginal hots damage and I wouldnt care about any other buff. If any one say wm would make it terran favor they should go check out forgg vs stephano match and remeber wm are a double edge sword they can work with u or not. If blizz makes a different change to wm I hope it like a burrowed baneling does splash damage within its area instead chasing the zergling that activated it.
Yeh balance for me is also not the main issue here. I just want Widow Mine to be good enough to make zergs have to micro more during engagements.
Something needs to change seeing that Protoss is winning tournaments left to right in this season. The only way a Terran or a Zerg to win a tournament is when there is no premier Korean Toss in it. I'm glad that these drastic changes are going to be implemented
On July 16 2014 06:05 DinoMight wrote: Why not leave Time Warp the same and just lock it to a 50/50 research or something like concussive shields?
I'm excited to see how stupid these widow mines are in game.
30 seconds with two of them available at once is just too much, especially combined with forcefields. It just kills any realistic potential to micro. It's an ability that should probably never have made it to live, but now it's here and we'll just have to live with it. The less of it we see the better imo, Sc2 needs more incentive to micro, not less.
2010 - early 2012 SC2 was the best, but I think it was because the game had a much larger player / viewerbase and wasn't figured out yet. When people started splitting marines against banelings for the first time, it was mindblowing LOL.
That feeling can only come from a new game...
Something like this will happen again in SC2 I ensure you. Happened in BW, happened in WC3.
Overall am happier with where they are going with things. I hate the idea of the Widow Mine to be a Protoss hater Mine. It seems this is really needed vs Mutas and Zerg micro is something we need, to make Zergs stand out from each other.
Only thing I'm a sad Zealot about is the Time Warp, it's a super nice change for nerfing all ins and I always kind of felt like it was very powerful. However I'd rather it to effect friendly units aswell or at least reduce the mana cost or something.
that actually sounds great... cool suggestion.
i dont see any real negative sides for this buff.
I love this idea, because I believe the idea of "high infastructure costs" to counter certain openings per se makes early game more coinflippy. Like if you need to invest X amounts of money to beat build Y, but your investment is totally useless if the opponent does build Z, and you have no reliable way of knowing whether he does build Y or Z, then the game becomes more coinflippy.
So IMO turrets should indeed be buildable without Ebay, but in this proces, I would argue for further adjustments as well;
- Buffs to DT's - Buff to Banshee's - Nerf to turrets (perhaps with an upgrade that cancels out the nerf).
Otherwise, I do think it will be too easy for terran to reflect mos harass. I still believe harass openings needs to do damage, but as long as terran has a turret, then he will be able to survive which for me is the important part.
You can go without the DT buff imo, there is no specific buff that you can give it that would answer a better turret, as the interaction DT/turret is basically be seen/not be seen. I guess you could make it a little less good vs oracles, in the same spirit as vs banshee.
You could give DTs blink or a snipe-like ability so it could snatch a kill or two and get the hell out despite being seen. Or that void prison ability from the campaign to disable detectors. There are always possibilities.
I'd go to full length and just remove Time Warp all-together.
And a big no to Widow Mine change. No matter what everyone here thinks, as a viewer, to me the match-up seemed quite in Terran's favor with old Widow Mines. Not to mention the whole randomness of it. It's not something an e-sports game needs. Watching Widow Mine blow up a dozen Banelings feels like watching a Michael Bay movie.
I would much more prefer a Muta nerf or a bigger change to Thor, anything to make that unit better - reduce size, increase speed, turn rate, whatever.
These changes might want me to play hots again..maybe... Looks like tvz is pretty set that it will be better after they patch it...However, i hope they really do something about lategame tvp...
Thank you for helping us playtest the current test map. From our own testing and the feedback we’ve gathered so far, here are our current thoughts on the changes:
Thor AA prioritization change This is a good change that’s simple and clean. It’s a minor improvement to players who aren’t able to micro Thors against Mutalisks in combat, and the general usage makes more sense with this change.
Time Warp duration decrease The effects of this change definitely seem noticeable, but we’d like to push this nerf slightly further.
Widow Mine splash radius increase The splash radius of 2 seems too much against Protoss worker lines. Also, we wonder if the full damage against Zerg being only an increase of 0.25 is too little.
So we’d like to make further adjustments and see if we can push some of these changes as much as possible. The changes we’d like to try next on the balance test map are:
Widow Mine Widow Mine going back to full splash damage and a 1.75 radius. (But they would still keep the +shields damage) This lessens its power against Probes, returns the Widow Mine to how it used to be against Zerg, and provides big improvements against Protoss armies in the mid and late game.
Time Warp Duration decreased to 10 seconds.
Obviously, these are just balance test map changes and part of the ongoing testing process. Nothing is final yet, so please share your thoughts after having playtested the current balance test map changes as well as the upcoming changes detailed in this post.
They should just nerf the oracle into the ground and remove the MSC, then terran will have a better early game and the 3 base rushes will be heavily punished, making protoss hard to play again.
This will help TvZ out and is even better than the previous balance test map!
The lower splash but higher damage compared to the previous suggestions will help Mech players be more aggressive early on (compared to earlier with the larger splash which was more late game focused) and promote heavy WM mech styles! Constant back and forth hurray! And it's also stronger which will also help lategame, though that's not that important. With a stronger early game, it'll be easier to keep the Protoss in check and we can have more active games with more interactions.
Meanwhile the previous suggestion didn't help too much in TvZ and I found that Thors with WMs did a lot of splash on my Thors now that the splash was increased, whereas previously they basically did no splash damage (maybe hitting only 1 thor and not 4).
um, i can live with the thor change and the wm buff for TvZ from a balance point of view(even tho zerg will get rekt for the first couple of month (old mine was a bit imba imo)), but i fear that i will make the match up even more one dimensional.
time warp nerf is good
regarding TvP wm buff plus shield damage vs toss is to much. i want templar openings back. just give terran a much needed stronger early game, by nerfing the shit out of photon overcharge and a possible oracle nerf (maybe dps a bit or straight up increased gas cost)
Widow Mine splash radius increase The splash radius of 2 seems too much against Protoss worker lines. Also, we wonder if the full damage against Zerg being only an increase of 0.25 is too little.
So we’d like to make further adjustments and see if we can push some of these changes as much as possible. The changes we’d like to try next on the balance test map are:
Widow Mine going back to full splash damage and a 1.75 radius. (But they would still keep the +shields damage)
This lessens its power against Probes, returns the Widow Mine to how it used to be against Zerg, and provides big improvements against Protoss armies in the mid and late game.
WHY? Let them destroy protoss mineral lines, it forces the protoss to react. There's no problem with that. But the midgame strength of widow mines doesn't need to be buffed. The opposite really, they need to take away the +shield damage again. It took away an entire viable playstyle for protoss and gave nothing back for terran. They still play the exact same way but it's stronger now because you can also mix in mines. Nobody makes widow mines vs lategame protoss because colossus swipes clear them out before they even detonate. So in other words, they want to buff mines for the midgame AGAIN, where they're already strong enough (and too strong in certain scenarios, seeing how they entirely killed off templar builds).
I'm getting more and more frustrated every single time they push out one of these updates. They need to start looking at actual problems - what army does a terran transition to? How can terran deal with mass warpins lategame? If they want, how can terran pressure protoss early? But they keep buffing the midgame where terran's already at their strongest. I don't get it.
Man, I very much agree with the bolded part. When mines first came out, they were raping probe lines left and right, but then Protoss adjusted, figured out timings, and tightened up their reactions. Let them wreck probes, that's fine. I just want Templar openings to be viable again so please remove + shield damage, or at least tone it way the hell down -_-
Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Photon Overcharge as a Cyber Core research or something. Make players choose between being aggressive or playing greedy. Tweak the timing/cost of the upgrade so that you can still have the ability by the time you'd need it for defense, but not be able to get Warpgate AND Photon Overcharge early.
Mid-Masters Protoss player here who also really loves to offrace as Terran . I am looking at the T changes with a positive outlook. I would love to see more mech TvP though and it would be nice if they actually tried to tweek the Siege Tank a bit to encourage that style of play. As far as the Time Warp Nerf I agree too that it`s currently too long. However, 10 seconds for 100 energy seem like a bad deal. 10 seconds is perfect for duration, but they should reduce the energy a bit. Maybe 75 ?
Let them wreck probes, that's fine. I just want Templar openings to be viable again so please remove + shield damage, or at least tone it way the hell down -_-
Actually I wonder if it would be good to reduce their HP to 80. 1 storm would then kill it.
On July 16 2014 03:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So, transformation servos when armoury is built AND reverted widow mine change? How does either help TvP? Why screw the Zerg player over? It's not like TvZ is the big bugbear that TvP is.
Well the changes have to be strong NOW, so that when Zergs figure out the new timings and how to defend them, Terran still has the ability to fight evenly or even create an advantage.
Changes in the meta must be accounted for when thinking about buffs, nerfs and un-nerfs.
On July 16 2014 03:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So, transformation servos when armoury is built AND reverted widow mine change? How does either help TvP? Why screw the Zerg player over? It's not like TvZ is the big bugbear that TvP is.
Well the changes have to be strong NOW, so that when Zergs figure out the new timings and how to defend them, Terran still has the ability to fight evenly or even create an advantage.
Changes in the meta must be accounted for when thinking about buffs, nerfs and un-nerfs.
what a bullshit comment. so the way is to make everything op as fuck to see if zergs can handle the shit or not so it will be nerfed again? we are going back to parade push until 3/3 beats 2/2 or the zerg gets a lucky friendly fire mine to go all out. yeah...great changes!
On July 16 2014 03:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So, transformation servos when armoury is built AND reverted widow mine change? How does either help TvP? Why screw the Zerg player over? It's not like TvZ is the big bugbear that TvP is.
Well the changes have to be strong NOW, so that when Zergs figure out the new timings and how to defend them, Terran still has the ability to fight evenly or even create an advantage.
Changes in the meta must be accounted for when thinking about buffs, nerfs and un-nerfs.
Or you just stop that bullshit of Terran getting to push Zerg all game long until Zerg reaches some magical number of mutalisks that one shot PFs and make it a back and forth game instead by giving both parties options to counter anything that the opponent can reach by compositional adjustments. Then we could finally get rid of this toxic "I need to be able to limit your fun" and "you should have killed me while you had the chance" gameplay. Really, changes in the meta only have to be accounted for for as long as the game gets balanced around timings instead of choices and longrun equilibria.
I cannot be the only one that remembers how after the mine nerf, tank buff, vehicle upgrade buff actually a lot of styles from both sides started to pop up. Where was Mech before that? What about Fantasies Mech into Bio build? Soulkey's Muta/SH against Mech. The combination of those patches actually worked very well in the sense of creating multiple nearly equally good playstyles for Terran. And instead of buffing one of them, balancing the game around one of them, why dont we use the chance to patch something that is actually a common problem to all of them? Aka (mass) mutalisks.
Here's how I see it. Templar is by far the more interesting opening for Protoss. It turns TvP into something resembling HOTS tug-of-war TvZ, which... if that doesn't sound like a great thing, then you've already forgotten WOL (and I envy you, you lucky bastard).
Templar right now is inferior to Colossus. I've asked for post-WM buff Korean games with Templar openings before, and didn't get any. I'll ask again. Is Templar unviable or is Templar less viable than Colossus? Because those are two very, very different things. Protoss lategame shat on Terran lategame back in WOL, and since then Protoss lategame has gotten considerably better while Terran lategame only got Afterburners and Viking upgrades, and an econ disadvantage bleeding in from the early game.
It is not only possible, but also probable, that Templar openings right now are actually balanced, while Colo openings are still as great as they've always been (aka not balanced) AND easier to execute (which has always been true regardless of balance). This would mean that the way to make Templar openings viable isn't to re-nerf the WM, it's to nerf the shit out of Colo opening so that Templar looks better by comparison.
I've seen basically no high level games of Templar openings in the last month or two, so I have no idea if Templar is actually balanced, or legitimately underpowered. If anyone has games, link them here so we can take a look and analyze as best we can.
And just in case you're wondering, Maru beating YongHwa's Templar opening won't be as definitive a proof as Gumiho beating Zest's....
On July 16 2014 03:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So, transformation servos when armoury is built AND reverted widow mine change? How does either help TvP? Why screw the Zerg player over? It's not like TvZ is the big bugbear that TvP is.
Well the changes have to be strong NOW, so that when Zergs figure out the new timings and how to defend them, Terran still has the ability to fight evenly or even create an advantage.
Changes in the meta must be accounted for when thinking about buffs, nerfs and un-nerfs.
what a bullshit comment. so the way is to make everything op as fuck to see if zergs can handle the shit or not so it will be nerfed again? we are going back to parade push until 3/3 beats 2/2 or the zerg gets a lucky friendly fire mine to go all out. yeah...great changes!
What a bullshit comment. So the way to address 3-4 Terrans in Code S for two seasons in a row is, what, another 0.2 attack speed on the Siege Tank? Get a grip on reality, man. And don't worry. There's no danger of an even distribution of races in this upcoming Code S.
I really like the widow mine change. Might actually try heavy mine TvZ, should be great vs swarm hosts too before you reach the critical siege tank number and allowing you to be safe with Thors.
On July 16 2014 03:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So, transformation servos when armoury is built AND reverted widow mine change? How does either help TvP? Why screw the Zerg player over? It's not like TvZ is the big bugbear that TvP is.
Well the changes have to be strong NOW, so that when Zergs figure out the new timings and how to defend them, Terran still has the ability to fight evenly or even create an advantage.
Changes in the meta must be accounted for when thinking about buffs, nerfs and un-nerfs.
Or you just stop that bullshit of Terran getting to push Zerg all game long until Zerg reaches some magical number of mutalisks that one shot PFs and make it a back and forth game instead by giving both parties options to counter anything that the opponent can reach by compositional adjustments.
The mid and late game right now is less balanced than it was before the WM nerf. The only party who gained options post nerf was Zerg, and those options have rendered Terran nearly impotent against late game Zerg armies at the highest level.
The only reason these things are happening is because Terran AOE is not sufficient to punish Zerg, which allows Zerg to retain their gas units with unbelievable efficiency throughout the mid game and into the late game.
Given their ability to reproduce, Zerg creating massive, regenerating Muta deathballs and then making 70+ banelings is NOT okay.
Also, given the community's perceived differences in the amount of micro needed for Zerg needs to combat WMs post nerf, I think most players would agree that it's healthier for the game in the long run if the anti-WM micro from the past was brought back. Maybe you don't like that because it's hard, but so is splitting my army against banelings. There needs to be parity, because right now it doesn't exist.
Then we could finally get rid of this toxic "I need to be able to limit your fun" and "you should have killed me while you had the chance" gameplay. Really, changes in the meta only have to be accounted for for as long as the game gets balanced around timings instead of choices and longrun equilibria.
You're wrong. If the game was balanced purely around timings instead of choices, the professional players would have figured out the game by now. Fortunately this is a strategy game, and choices you make throughout the match have rewards and consequences.
You can't expect Zerg to be able to defend and capitalize on these new timings from the first day. As long as Zergs get more and more efficient at recognizing and capitalizing on each new timing attack, the game is balanced. Each side will eventually make new changes to their strats to combat the changes their counterparts make, until we reach an impasse where one definitely has an advantage (like Zerg does now).
@Luna: I absolutely dont care about how hard it is to micro against mines. Im not even playing Zerg these weeks.
What bugs me is that this patch tries to give the game parity by buffing one Terran style. All others remain as weak as they are right now. Hellbat/bio/thor? With the new patch, mines are definitely better. Mech? Already worse than bio/mine and profits less. Mech into bio? Wasnt very strong to begin with and biomine is so much better.
Any Terran that doesnt want to parade all day, every day gets left behind. Sorry, no balance for you. Every Zerg that wants to leave his half of the map before 20mins is forced back into allinning. Meanwhile, I still have no clue how I'd deal with mass mutas off of my bio/mine setup, once my opponent has 30 of them.
This change is hard for Zergs to accept because of how much they HATE widow mines.
It would be as though in order to fix a balance problem for Protoss Blizzard decided to buff Psionic Storm. Regardless of whether or not it was needed Terrans would STILL be pissed about it.
On July 16 2014 08:13 Big J wrote: @Luna: I absolutely dont care about how hard it is to micro against mines. Im not even playing Zerg these weeks.
What bugs me is that this patch tries to give the game parity by buffing one Terran style. All others remain as weak as they are right now. Hellbat/bio/thor? With the new patch, mines are definitely better. Mech? Already worse than bio/mine and profits less. Mech into bio? Wasnt very strong to begin with and biomine is so much better.
Any Terran that doesnt want to parade all day, every day gets left behind. Sorry, no balance for you. Every Zerg that wants to leave his half of the map before 20mins is forced back into allinning. Meanwhile, I still have no clue how I'd deal with mass mutas off of my bio/mine setup, once my opponent has 30 of them.
Isn't it obvious to you yet that Blizzard doesn't give one shit about fixing Mech in a balance patch?
To them, making all 3 races balanced even if it is only with one style is more important than having a diverse array of options for each race, at least when doing balance patches like this.
They fucked up with Mech in Heart of the Swarm. It's not viable and won't be without some major changes that would completely change the metagame in the process. That isn't the kind of thing they are going to do mid-WCS season.
Those of us that still campaign for Mech to become viable are holding out for Legacy of the Void. It's pretty damn clear nothing else is going to be done about it before that.
This is pretty classic Blizzard "let's have each race take turns being strong" balance except it looks like Zerg has to wait a really long time after BL/Infestor.
On July 16 2014 08:17 Cheren wrote: This is pretty classic Blizzard "let's have each race take turns being strong" balance except it looks like Zerg has to wait a really long time after BL/Infestor.
I don't see the Protoss reign of dominance ending on account of this patch.
If anything this is just going to end the ridiculous representation of Terrans in Code S trend, and I'm totally fine with that.
On July 16 2014 08:13 Big J wrote: @Luna: I absolutely dont care about how hard it is to micro against mines. Im not even playing Zerg these weeks.
What bugs me is that this patch tries to give the game parity by buffing one Terran style. All others remain as weak as they are right now. Hellbat/bio/thor? With the new patch, mines are definitely better. Mech? Already worse than bio/mine and profits less. Mech into bio? Wasnt very strong to begin with and biomine is so much better.
Any Terran that doesnt want to parade all day, every day gets left behind. Sorry, no balance for you. Every Zerg that wants to leave his half of the map before 20mins is forced back into allinning. Meanwhile, I still have no clue how I'd deal with mass mutas off of my bio/mine setup, once my opponent has 30 of them.
Isn't it obvious to you yet that Blizzard doesn't give one shit about fixing Mech in a balance patch?
To them, making all 3 races balanced even if it is only with one style is more important than having a diverse array of options for each race, at least when doing balance patches like this.
They fucked up with Mech in Heart of the Swarm. It's not viable and won't be without some major changes that would completely change the metagame in the process. That isn't the kind of thing they are going to do mid-WCS season.
Those of us that still campaign for Mech to become viable are holding out for Legacy of the Void. It's pretty damn clear nothing else is going to be done about it before that.
They are not clever about it. But they did buff banshees, upgrades, hellbats. Even tanks by a tiny bit. Of course their idea to make mech viable without really including tanks in their plans is stupid.
But its not only Mech. Bio/tank isnt good either. Any defensive approach with bio just ends with "ahm... And what now?" Give the races longrun parities and stop the "oh fuck i should have attacked" timing balancing. When i play defensive and mine equally, i dont see a reason why i shouldnt be at least on even footing. Regardless of what race i play and play against.
I`m gonna put a big target on my head right now, but I really need to say this. Everytime there is a thread like this one (including general balance discussion) the quality of the posts goes down a lot. I`m saddened to see that people are more inclined to flaming Blizzard and present their opinion as being the only true opinion (Sometimes claiming they represent the vast majority of people playing the game) then to just see this effort as a possible step in the right direction.
What I mean by that is that there`s a big difference in attitude between saying << F**k David Kim >>; << those changes are bullshit ! >> ; << Quote: you really think that ? that`s very stupid everyone knows it`s X the problem >> and approaching the situation with a bit more of a positive vibe. << I disagree with what David Kim`s proposed, but I`ll let more than a few days of testing to go by see how it pans out >>; << I don`t think these changes will improve the gameplay experience >> (No usage of absolutes); <<Quote: I see what you mean, but I think X is much more of a problem because ... >>.
I know it`s the nature of the internet nowadays and forums in general, but Team Liquid to me was a lot better to read/skim through when I was lurking several years back. In my opinion, this negative attitude (Not by all posters of course ) just affects the community in a toxic way. There you go, had to say it.
PS: You might not agree with David Kim`s approach to balancing the game, but flaming the person and EVERYTHING he ever did is just immature. If you were in his position and had some much responsabilities you might just do worst
This won't do anything PvT. Protoss that are complaining about this buff should be happy this is the crappy "improvement" Blizzard decided to implement (or revert in this case). This is more of a "psychological" change than anything. Just like when they buffed the tank to .0000002 faster speed, it made Terran's feel like they were getting something when, in fact, they were headed down the worst slump in SC2 history. This change does absolutely nothing to the metagame. When a timewarp is cast, it is usually to "hold" a group of units in one spot. It doesn't need more than 10 seconds to do its job. Terran just avoids the Timewarp after the first cast anyway. I'm now convinced we'll see the continued Toss deathball march until LoTV. I guess I'll have to endure the -- 2-base, 2-forge, while teching to colo and researching storm with 1-stalker and a sentry while defending with PO -- Tosses.
On July 16 2014 08:58 Universum wrote: I`m gonna put a big target on my head right now, but I really need to say this. Everytime there is a thread like this one (including general balance discussion) the quality of the posts goes down a lot. I`m saddened to see that people are more inclined to flaming Blizzard and present their opinion as being the only true opinion (Sometimes claiming they represent the vast majority of people playing the game) then to just see this effort as a possible step in the right direction.
What I mean by that is that there`s a big difference in attitude between saying << F**k David Kim >>; << those changes are bullshit ! >> ; << Quote: you really think that ? that`s very stupid everyone knows it`s X the problem >> and approaching the situation with a bit more of a positive vibe. << I disagree with what David Kim`s proposed, but I`ll let more than a few days of testing to go by see how it pans out >>; << I don`t think these changes will improve the gameplay experience >> (No usage of absolutes); <<Quote: I see what you mean, but I think X is much more of a problem because ... >>.
I know it`s the nature of the internet nowadays and forums in general, but Team Liquid to me was a lot better to read/skim through when I was lurking several years back. In my opinion, this negative attitude (Not by all posters of course ) just affects the community in a toxic way. There you go, had to say it.
PS: You might not agree with David Kim`s approach to balancing the game, but flaming the person and EVERYTHING he ever did is just immature. If you were in his position and had some much responsabilities you might just do worst
I greatly disaprove of David Kim, but the fact that he finally reverted one of the many bad changes shows that he's not an arrogant idiot, just really bad at his job. By the way is this the first time in SC2 history we get a complete nerf reversal?
On July 16 2014 08:58 Universum wrote: I`m gonna put a big target on my head right now, but I really need to say this. Everytime there is a thread like this one (including general balance discussion) the quality of the posts goes down a lot. I`m saddened to see that people are more inclined to flaming Blizzard and present their opinion as being the only true opinion (Sometimes claiming they represent the vast majority of people playing the game) then to just see this effort as a possible step in the right direction.
What I mean by that is that there`s a big difference in attitude between saying << F**k David Kim >>; << those changes are bullshit ! >> ; << Quote: you really think that ? that`s very stupid everyone knows it`s X the problem >> and approaching the situation with a bit more of a positive vibe. << I disagree with what David Kim`s proposed, but I`ll let more than a few days of testing to go by see how it pans out >>; << I don`t think these changes will improve the gameplay experience >> (No usage of absolutes); <<Quote: I see what you mean, but I think X is much more of a problem because ... >>.
I know it`s the nature of the internet nowadays and forums in general, but Team Liquid to me was a lot better to read/skim through when I was lurking several years back. In my opinion, this negative attitude (Not by all posters of course ) just affects the community in a toxic way. There you go, had to say it.
PS: You might not agree with David Kim`s approach to balancing the game, but flaming the person and EVERYTHING he ever did is just immature. If you were in his position and had some much responsabilities you might just do worst
I think the community becomes upset when they have clearly voiced their concerns and suggestions for months and Blizzard does quite the opposite after receiving constructive criticism. It was clear from many "Pro" input that mid game is NOT the issue; in fact, it is Terran late game and early game harass against races like Protoss. So what do they do? They decide to look at changes to the WM and medivac - two clearly mid game units - which do not help in the late game at all (i.e. against HT, archon, stalker, Colo) deathball.
Also, I think it says a lot that David Kim (aka Dayvie) has stopped playing the game altogether. That is like owning a Burger stand and not eating meat.
This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
On July 16 2014 08:58 Universum wrote: I`m gonna put a big target on my head right now, but I really need to say this. Everytime there is a thread like this one (including general balance discussion) the quality of the posts goes down a lot. I`m saddened to see that people are more inclined to flaming Blizzard and present their opinion as being the only true opinion (Sometimes claiming they represent the vast majority of people playing the game) then to just see this effort as a possible step in the right direction.
What I mean by that is that there`s a big difference in attitude between saying << F**k David Kim >>; << those changes are bullshit ! >> ; << Quote: you really think that ? that`s very stupid everyone knows it`s X the problem >> and approaching the situation with a bit more of a positive vibe. << I disagree with what David Kim`s proposed, but I`ll let more than a few days of testing to go by see how it pans out >>; << I don`t think these changes will improve the gameplay experience >> (No usage of absolutes); <<Quote: I see what you mean, but I think X is much more of a problem because ... >>.
I know it`s the nature of the internet nowadays and forums in general, but Team Liquid to me was a lot better to read/skim through when I was lurking several years back. In my opinion, this negative attitude (Not by all posters of course ) just affects the community in a toxic way. There you go, had to say it.
PS: You might not agree with David Kim`s approach to balancing the game, but flaming the person and EVERYTHING he ever did is just immature. If you were in his position and had some much responsabilities you might just do worst
I think the community becomes upset when they have clearly voiced their concerns and suggestions for months and Blizzard does quite the opposite after receiving constructive criticism.
If you go back you're going to find about 2000 quotes from the community about how they should revert the mine to the old mine, but they're never going to do it because that would be admitting mistakes. You will also find that many of these posts claimed support from "the community". At this point, "the community" has said so much about so many problems that it should be kind of hard to pretend it has a clear view on anything. I agree with you about what the changes should be, or should have been. I also think it should have been kind of obvious. But let's not pretend like there was a consensus and Blizzard is ignoring it.
I'm OK with buffing Terran mid game against zerg to account for late game because of the fun factor. TvZ was pretty awesome at the height of the mmmm, especially after the overlord buff had zergs figuring it out more so. I have no idea why anyone would say that was bland, it was the fastest paced and most insane micro in any version of the game. I'm OK there and I think this "fixes" TvZ pretty well.
I'm just not sure about TvP and how this really does anything. In this thread I've seen a lot of people say how "crazy good" mines will be vs protoss....... does anyone have even a single game they can show me where the mine is considered effective in late game TvP? Are these people just guessing? Can the mine really do jack anything vs screen blanketing storms and zealots that never die, backed up by long range AOE killing machines? I don't see it. And the issue is the Planetary Nexus, not the mine... as we've been saying forever.
Can someone explain why anyone would think this mine change greatly effects TvP with any kind of examples or proof?
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
The undisputed #1 Terran in the world beat a top 10 Protoss (what rank is herO this month among HerO, Stardust, San, MC, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Rain, Classic, Dear, Trap, and PigBaby?) in a single game.
Rain's nightmare has finally come to pass! Protoss is unplayable!
For the record, here are all the balance changes since Blizzcon 2013, assuming these changes go through:
TvP:
Positive Terran Changes: -MSC vision is now 9 instead of 14 -Widow mines do more damage to shields -Time Warp is now 10 seconds and 100 energy instead of 30 seconds and 75 energy. -Ghosts start with the energy upgrade.
Positive Protoss Changes: -Oracles are faster.
TvZ:
Positive Terran Changes: -Tanks shoot faster -Mech upgrades are combined -Hellbats can be transformed without an upgrade -Thors prioritize AA attacks
Positive Zerg Changes: -Roach and Hydra buffs for players who play that style, but nothing for muta/ling/bane.
PvZ changes have been more minor, with buffs to roach/hydra and "Units that burrow or cloak while under the effects of Revelation will once again be revealed after unburrowing or uncloaking." to help Protoss against Swarm Hosts.
So assuming that this is the last major balance patch before Blizzcon, it's a fact that Terran will be stronger at Blizzcon 2014 than at Blizzcon 2013.
On July 16 2014 03:07 emidanRKO wrote: I feel like too many people are hardcore Day9 followers here.
You seriously think that Widow Mines are "ridiculous" against chargelots? Have you not been watching mine-based TvPs play out for the past months? Have you seen how bad a protoss has to micro in order to actually suffer from that?
This is a great change, and with the added bonus of not removing the extra shield damage, I think protoss at all levels will suddenly be much harder to play against terran. A much needed change...but I still feel like something needs to be done about tanks and/or immortals to make mech much more viable. Although Blizzard doesn't seem to be going in that direction whatsoever... In a game where the protoss basically knows you will go a particular tech route, and only needs to know whether you are going to attack or not, it's not very fair scouting-wise since all he has to do is check your number of barracks. Hell, you can basically assume aggression, since late-game is auto screwed if you decided to go bio into mid-game.
Day9 followers? If you played a zealot archon based strategy you would understand that it's just not possible to pull off anymore unless the Terran goes for a very delayed factory and even then you will have only a narrow window to do damage. Chargelots cannot be microed like zerglings and sacrificing one or two zealots to set off a mine is not supply efficient (like it is with lings). I think the mine buff was a good decision. Chargelot archon was super duper easy to pull off pre-patch. Now it's more of a niche build.
These proposed changes are just getting silly. I think the balance team should be forbidden from making patches until they figure out what is actually wrong with their game.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
This post is supported by the fact that Terran swept all of the WCS titles and Protoss didn't win a single one. But the best Terran in the world (the only one to get to Ro8 Code S) beat a Protoss in one game, it must all be balanced right?
Good to know that Innovation, Flash, bbyong, and Supernova are chobo Terrans that have been doing the same thing since WoL.
On July 16 2014 02:40 PineapplePizza wrote: This is so damn weird.
They gut punch the mine and throw out this hillariously miniscule 0.2 attack speed buff for the tank in the name of 'variety'...
...then after completely ignoring the game until a particular megathread appears, they decide for the first time in sc2 history to revert a bad patch that was poorly received for being random and unnecessary...
thus, all those months of Code B Flash were completely for naught.
We'll go back to slightly Terran-favored, incredibly-bitchy Zergs and nonstop biomine till lotv beta in october or something.
You mean it'll change from the now bitchy terrans? Woohoo!
as a terran player, this mine buff seems kind of ridiculous against protoss. I hope they revert the +shield damage. It's a pity that we dont see templar play anymore, and I think this isn't in the right direction if we want to see those builds return
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
I picked one of the best Terrans in the world playing one of the best Protosses in the world, on a balanced map, because I believe in good examples. Apparently crushing one of the best Protosses on earth is a terrible example of Terran being competitive. With logic like that, it is little wonder articles like ZParcraft are so popular with lower level Terrans.
The 14CC was of little importance. What was hardly standard, and quite creative, was things like factory block at the Protoss third, speed medivac drops on top of colossi (who needs vikings.) All of which hints at possibilities creative Terrans are only beginning to discover. The problem is whiny, uncreative Terrans who only want to get MMM, stim and stutter step to victory before 14 minutes. If Protoss attacks before then, imbalanced. If Protoss defends and takes it into the late game, imbalanced. The game has never been more balanced than it is now at the highest level, and these nerfs and buffs are only going to revert the game to WoL days, but ZTarcraft is fine, as long as Protoss isnt winning, its balanced for these Terrans who come on forums and whine in posts about ZParcraft instead of imagining new strats like Maru.
The problem is that Terrans are just so used to always beating Protoss from WoL days that now that the game is balanced, Terrans think it is unbalanced.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
I picked one of the best Terrans in the world playing one of the best Protosses in the world, on a balanced map, because I believe in good examples. Apparently crushing one of the best Protosses on earth is a terrible example of Terran being competitive. With logic like that, it is little wonder articles like ZParcraft are so popular with lower level Terrans.
The 14CC was of little importance. What was hardly standard, and quite creative, was things like factory block at the Protoss third, speed medivac drops on top of colossi (who needs vikings.) All of which hints at possibilities creative Terrans are only beginning to discover. The problem is whiny, uncreative Terrans who only want to get MMM, stim and stutter step to victory before 14 minutes. If Protoss attacks before then, imbalanced. If Protoss defends and takes it into the late game, imbalanced. The game has never been more balanced than it is now at the highest level, and these nerfs and buffs are only going to revert the game to WoL days, but ZTarcraft is fine, as long as Protoss isnt winning, its balanced for these Terrans who come on forums and whine in posts about ZParcraft instead of imagining new strats like Maru.
No, you picked THE best Terran in the world on a map that allows drop play easily. Besides, one Terran beating one Protoss doesn't mean that the game is balanced, it just means that Maru won a match.
Factory block at the third is creative? If you mean that it forces the Protoss to choose to double expand or all-in, sure. But Nexus snipes are hardly the norm, and the only reason that herO couldn't just walk over with a couple of gateway units and destroy it was because his economy was shattered because he hadn't commited enough of his tech units to negating the double drop in his main.
Boosting Marauders into Colossus isn't new, but wouldn't have been possible had herO played better, either. herO gave several Stalkers away in defense of his main Nexus during the double drop, and had he brought over the Colossus and Sentries to help with his defense (instead of holding them at his natural for an attack that never came; he overestimated Maru's production) he would likely retained those units. If those Stalkers are alive, the battle swings highly into his favor, and he retains the Colossi as 5-6 Stalkers would provide enough anti-air to snipe Medivacs while they are boosting.
herO played very badly here, and of course if a Protoss plays very badly then he's going to get beaten by a player of Maru's caliber. That doesn't mean, however, that "the game has never been more balanced than it is now at the highest level." Everyone wants the game to be balanced, but there is a strong sentiment with quantifiable evidence that Protoss has enjoyed a significant advantage over Terran in the early and late games for over half a year now.
You really should stop with the balance whine and drop the martyrdom complex.
Btw, TvP in WOL had been even or slightly in favor of Protoss since early 2012. Squirtle, Naniwa, Creator and Parting ushered in a new era of Protoss around the 2nd 2012 GSL season, and Protoss has never significantly fallen off since, especially with the arrival of the more skilled KeSPA Protoss.
On July 16 2014 11:26 Vindicare605 wrote: This pedrac guy is an obvious troll. less than 300 posts and posts that are THIS crazy. He's trolling. Just ignore him.
On July 16 2014 10:58 Perdac Curall wrote: The problem is that Terrans are just so used to always beating Protoss from WoL days that now that the game is balanced, Terrans think it is unbalanced.
On July 16 2014 11:26 Vindicare605 wrote: This pedrac guy is an obvious troll. less than 300 posts and posts that are THIS crazy. He's trolling. Just ignore him.
Are you trying to deligitimize my new signature?
No not at all, just because a troll said something outlandish and ridiculous doesn't make it less sig worthy.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
I picked one of the best Terrans in the world playing one of the best Protosses in the world, on a balanced map, because I believe in good examples. Apparently crushing one of the best Protosses on earth is a terrible example of Terran being competitive. With logic like that, it is little wonder articles like ZParcraft are so popular with lower level Terrans.
The 14CC was of little importance. What was hardly standard, and quite creative, was things like factory block at the Protoss third, speed medivac drops on top of colossi (who needs vikings.) All of which hints at possibilities creative Terrans are only beginning to discover. The problem is whiny, uncreative Terrans who only want to get MMM, stim and stutter step to victory before 14 minutes. If Protoss attacks before then, imbalanced. If Protoss defends and takes it into the late game, imbalanced. The game has never been more balanced than it is now at the highest level, and these nerfs and buffs are only going to revert the game to WoL days, but ZTarcraft is fine, as long as Protoss isnt winning, its balanced for these Terrans who come on forums and whine in posts about ZParcraft instead of imagining new strats like Maru.
Stop digging the hole, bro. No one who's honest would claim that PvT is balanced right now.
Hell if they just reverted the game to the way it was at the beginning of HOTS it would be fine probably. Hellbat drops were brutal but its not like other races don't have other ways of being other just as abusive. I like the mine change a lot though, and I do agree that time warp negates micro too much.
On July 16 2014 12:02 Redrot wrote: Hell if they just reverted the game to the way it was at the beginning of HOTS it would be fine probably. Hellbat drops were brutal but its not like other races don't have other ways of being other just as abusive. I like the mine change a lot though, and I do agree that time warp negates micro too much.
so tell me how zerg can be abusive. and dont do the silver talk by saying mass baneling op.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
This post is supported by the fact that Terran swept all of the WCS titles and Protoss didn't win a single one. But the best Terran in the world (the only one to get to Ro8 Code S) beat a Protoss in one game, it must all be balanced right?
Good to know that Innovation, Flash, bbyong, and Supernova are chobo Terrans that have been doing the same thing since WoL.
You don't get it, do you? The game will never be balanced through multiple iteration of these "patches". A true balance comes in the form of player skills, innovation, and strategies. The fact is that even after these proposed patches go through, the game will still be unbalanced to many viewers.
Just for the record, Flash has already stated that he does not want any changes to the current state of Terran.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
I applaud their continued efforts to make widow mines return to their former glory. Blizzard, you have my thanks. I'll reserve the rest of my comments on the changes when I have more time to try out TvP against blink/timewarp and TvZ 4M+thor compositions.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I really don't see how the aggression is unscoutable unless Protoss hides tech structures somewhere on the map - and even then it isn't unscoutable, you just don't scout it. You have scans. Obviously you would rather not scan, but if you drop a money scan, see what's coming, you can defend accordingly.
i'm talking mainly about proxy, yes.
yes, it's theoretically scoutable. but you'll have to scout it in time too. it's really really difficult... and no fun at all if >50% of your TvPs are about scouting their hidden bullshit.
Actually, the only time I actually like TvP lately is when they try bullshit builds like oracles or blink all-ins .
Every other game is just Toss building Colossi which is boring. The matchup was a lot more fun when Toss was doing templar builds.
However, when I'm Toss, I find it REALLY hard to beat a player who gets a bunch of widow mines if I'm going templar - which is I suspect why I never see it now in TvP.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
The undisputed #1 Terran in the world beat a top 10 Protoss (what rank is herO this month among HerO, Stardust, San, MC, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Rain, Classic, Dear, Trap, and PigBaby?) in a single game.
Rain's nightmare has finally come to pass! Protoss is unplayable!
Why are you even naming EU/NA ones? Do you think they are remotely close to herO, rain, zest? Also it was really a golden age. A race coloured mostly of a golden tone just won everything.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
It's not the first time they reverted a change back.. The first was the AS Hydra buff, though there might've been something else already before..
But - they're certainly out of touch lately.. TW is getting nerfed to oblivion.. will anyone use it ? - like literally - will anyone use that thing, or just keep the energy and use it for a recal or PO
I don't get the need to do strong buffs to the mine either.. but well.. i'm no pro
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
You can refine your gameplay a bit. I stopped having deadly trouble with the random all ins or cheeses by going rax, OC, CC, rax, rax. There's enough production if it turns out to be a push, enough critical mass if its an oracle, etc.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
I seem to recall muta counters tank in brood war. Also lurker counters marine/firebat and vulture, zergling and zealot, and can soft counter goons. Defiler countered late game deathball army greatly with it's op 125 damage plague spell that hit HP through shields, even. It was one of the anti-clump-your-units-in-a-ball-to-have-infinite-point-DPS tools zerg had, and seemed to have a big range too.
Let's see, siege tank countered goliaths, hydras countered most air units, archons countered ling or muta HARD, and reaver or siege tank countered hydra. The last two are hard or soft counter depending on the micro and baiting by the person being hit by scarabs or arclite.
Brood war had counter units, too. Every RTS functions on counter units, and even in real life we function in war on counter units. AA missiles vs that jet with the big bomb on it, AT warheads or recoiless rifles vs tanks, etc.
You can't look for strategy much in a game where it doesn't matter what you make or where you send it.
On July 16 2014 14:46 VArsovskiSC wrote: It's not the first time they reverted a change back.. The first was the AS Hydra buff, though there might've been something else already before..
But - they're certainly out of touch lately.. TW is getting nerfed to oblivion.. will anyone use it ? - like literally - will anyone use that thing, or just keep the energy and use it for a recal or PO
I don't get the need to do strong buffs to the mine either.. but well.. i'm no pro
Hey, I am a protoss army, I feel strong, I want to take this fight! I'll use timewarp! Seriously though. It will be used the same times it is used now (offensively).
On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote: Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me.
On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote: Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me.
OverBuff to Widow Mines and OverNerf to Time Warp... well done Blizz...
The main problem is Photon Over and they are skipping it? Is it for real? WTF are they thinking? Also, the radiius of the WM is still huge with that damage, I am expecting a reduction on it ASAP.
Oh God, I just don't want to go back to the old days where WM was stupidly broken and the streams were so boring and unfair on TvZ
On the other hand, Protoss will simply turtle a little more and get Obs + Colossi, then they will laugh at WM no matter if they do 400 insta damage or 4...
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I think a simple missile turrets no longer requiring an ebay would to wonder for early game terran.
that actually sounds great... cool suggestion.
i dont see any real negative sides for this buff.
Actually, a good solution would be the reduction of the ebay's build time (or the turret's). This could improve early game aggression for the Terran (since upgrades would be done quicker) and their defense capabilities...
I don't understand the approach of Blizzard in buffing/nerfing. They are always only tweaking small numbers (most often damage output) to balance statistics. That may be the way to make a game balanced but is not the way to make it enjoyable. Why would you want to buff the widow mine? You can do a lot of other things - change the creep mechanics (e.g. make it recede faster), change overcharge (make it impossible to cast on two nexus at a time instead of nerfing the duration zzz).
The unwillingness to change unit design will lead to a total stalemate in some matchups (we are pretty close to it in tvz anyways, even though it is slightly zerg favored at the moment - no party really has the power to attack the opponent and finish him). Is that what we want to see? Pro games getting dragged out for 20 additional minutes even though you know one player is a bit ahead and will win but can't do so before being maxed out? As in zvz roach wars?
if the widow mine changes go through I will likely pass on sc2 until next expansion at least in my opinion widow mines ruin TvZ which was the best matchup to play and watch prior to infestors becoming a thing widow mines are boring to watch and not fun to play against the only tension when watching comes from the knowledge that by no skill on the terran's part aside from burrowing a widow mine the game can end if the zerg isn't paying attention for one second Basically imagine if you as a terran faced burrowed banelings every single game, banelings that shot air and didn't die until you killed them and a single one could wipe out half your army while you are busy calling down mules Maybe they are balanced - i think they are as it stands for ZvT anyway - or maybe not I don't really care because for me its just not a fun or interesting unit. with the buff there is no reason to ever get tanks again TT
Widow Mines are the least enjoyable unit in the game bar none. Please stops obsessing about it, replace it with something enjoyable and nerf it into oblivion.
On July 16 2014 02:07 KatatoniK wrote: 10 second time warp? Blizzard pls, just make the damn thing researchable at the Twilight Council and leave it at it's current duration.
seconded. it better cost only 50 energy. it takes 90 seconds to get 50 energy. even with 15 s it should still be 50 energy... at least not 100, jeez
widow mine idk. jakji is tearing it up right now in iem as i write this with widow mines. against true.
On July 16 2014 02:07 KatatoniK wrote: 10 second time warp? Blizzard pls, just make the damn thing researchable at the Twilight Council and leave it at it's current duration.
seconded. it better cost only 50 energy. it takes 90 seconds to get 50 energy. even with 15 s it should still be 50 energy... at least not 100, jeez
widow mine idk. jakji is tearing it up right now in iem as i write this with widow mines. against true.
You realise that you could cast 4 timewarps then? That would be a huge buff instead of a nerf, since nobody stands in a timewarp for 30 seconds anyway.
I dont understand why its so hard to just remove muta regen, a unit that can harass you to death while getting damaged and keeping your opponent at home is not right.
On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote: Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me.
Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing!
On July 16 2014 18:28 Extenz wrote: I dont understand why its so hard to just remove muta regen, a unit that can harass you to death while getting damaged and keeping your opponent at home is not right.
You could make Muta's fast regen cost minerals and let player turn it on and off
On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote: Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me.
Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing!
From the Terran perspective it is already the most boring non mirror MU. The strategy is literally chosen for you the moment you picked Terran.
EDIT: And what's the problem with Terran having viable defensive strategies (mech)? Should it be only Protoss that can go full aggression and turtle?
Thank you for helping us playtest the current test map. From our own testing and the feedback we’ve gathered so far, here are our current thoughts on the changes:
Thor AA prioritization change This is a good change that’s simple and clean. It’s a minor improvement to players who aren’t able to micro Thors against Mutalisks in combat, and the general usage makes more sense with this change.
Time Warp duration decrease The effects of this change definitely seem noticeable, but we’d like to push this nerf slightly further.
Widow Mine splash radius increase The splash radius of 2 seems too much against Protoss worker lines. Also, we wonder if the full damage against Zerg being only an increase of 0.25 is too little.
So we’d like to make further adjustments and see if we can push some of these changes as much as possible. The changes we’d like to try next on the balance test map are:
Widow Mine Widow Mine going back to full splash damage and a 1.75 radius. (But they would still keep the +shields damage) This lessens its power against Probes, returns the Widow Mine to how it used to be against Zerg, and provides big improvements against Protoss armies in the mid and late game.
Time Warp Duration decreased to 10 seconds.
Obviously, these are just balance test map changes and part of the ongoing testing process. Nothing is final yet, so please share your thoughts after having playtested the current balance test map changes as well as the upcoming changes detailed in this post.
First they change the widow mine to open up diversity because all Terran did for the first half of HOTS was 3 base rally MMMM until the Zerg died. So now they are saying, screw diversity and making the same option to be done to Protoss as well as Zerg? Every single match-up Terran plays is now going to be a non-stop three base death push with absolutely zero diversity.
The Thor buff shouldn't go through because you are just removing even more micro from the game. It is bad enough when I play players that sit on three-four bases until they max out mech, turrets, and PF's, but now you are making it easier for them to push with this barely microed army? The Time Warp nerf is just useless because everything will be dead within the Time Warp five seconds after its dropped.
How about we get a buff to Mech that makes it viable aside from late game 200/200 pushes? How about unit separation gets added into the game so all races have an easier time splitting units? This buff alone would make Terran late game bio more viable.
How about Zerg gets options to harass before they get late game T3 3/3 that isn't an all-in? How about Zerg gets a nerf to the swarm host and a buff in other areas so I'm not stuck massing this boring unit in every match-up once a death ball gets too large? How about they nerf something about Protoss that is too useful, like Recall or Photon Overcharge? There are so many options and angles you could go to and they always pick literally the worst band-aid patches possible.
On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote: Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me.
Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing!
From the Terran perspective it is already the most boring non mirror MU. The strategy is literally chosen for you the moment you picked Terran.
EDIT: And what's the problem with Terran having viable defensive strategies (mech)? Should it be only Protoss that can go full aggression and turtle?
I'm just pointing out that it's contraddictory to ask for a matchup that's less boring (because the terran would have more options), by protoss to turtle with colossi (which make for much worse games than templar builds) and letting terran turtle with mech.
edit: it's just like the discussion on buffing the tank: "buff the tank so that mech is more viable!" "yeah but then tvt becomes only mech vs mech, and we dont want that!"
On July 16 2014 18:28 Extenz wrote: I dont understand why its so hard to just remove muta regen, a unit that can harass you to death while getting damaged and keeping your opponent at home is not right.
You could make Muta's fast regen cost minerals and let player turn it on and off
On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote: Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me.
Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing!
From the Terran perspective it is already the most boring non mirror MU. The strategy is literally chosen for you the moment you picked Terran.
EDIT: And what's the problem with Terran having viable defensive strategies (mech)? Should it be only Protoss that can go full aggression and turtle?
Protoss has all the tools to beat mech with superior mobility. They just don't have to do that because a simple a-click is enough. Pretty sad.
How about instead of muta regen we just buff the queen's transfuse ability, but also change it in a way so that it cannot be spammed to make a single unit immortal? Like a decreased cost, but regen over time?
On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote: Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me.
Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing!
From the Terran perspective it is already the most boring non mirror MU. The strategy is literally chosen for you the moment you picked Terran.
EDIT: And what's the problem with Terran having viable defensive strategies (mech)? Should it be only Protoss that can go full aggression and turtle?
I'm just pointing out that it's contraddictory to ask for a matchup that's less boring (because the terran would have more options), by protoss to turtle with colossi (which make for much worse games than templar builds) and letting terran turtle with mech.
edit: it's just like the discussion on buffing the tank: "buff the tank so that mech is more viable!" "yeah but then tvt becomes only mech vs mech, and we dont want that!"
I understand that but i disagree with comparing defensive colossus play with mech. There is nothing wrong with defensive play + harass. The problem i and maybe some other people have with Colossus play is how the army itself functions and looks. Units on top of units (if you have some air then you get a 3 layer unit cluster fuck) with pedestrian positioning and micro requirements (and opportunities for that matter) that labels it as a "1 a army". Mech is nothing like that! (Siege Tank based mech).
Colossus play is hated because the Colossus as a unit is hated, not the defensive nature of the strat.
As far as a potential Tank buff making mech vs mech the only viable option, i personally thing it should be an acceptable loss if it means you open up new strategies and options in 2 other MUs, the non mirror ones no less. Besides, with the strength of the Medivac and Marauders plus map design, i doubt bio will ever be unplayable TvT. It might take more skill then it takes now, but so what?
I do understand one thing, what ever the balance patch they do today, they have to do it all over again on Lotv. For example if they buff tank, then there is a a new unit that sync well with tank, they will have to nerf it again eventually. Not that i happy with curent situation but i do understand why they are not giving us big balance patch or change some mechanic of the game. Imagine trying to balance vanila sc before bw.
Thor change is so bad, it removes micro from the equation, why anyone would ever want to make the game less fun to play / remove micro :/
if both this change and the widow mine change makes it in, we'll now have stronger widow mines that cant be picked off by muta flocks because thor will auto-shoot mutas in the face
On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote: Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me.
Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing!
From the Terran perspective it is already the most boring non mirror MU. The strategy is literally chosen for you the moment you picked Terran.
EDIT: And what's the problem with Terran having viable defensive strategies (mech)? Should it be only Protoss that can go full aggression and turtle?
I'm just pointing out that it's contraddictory to ask for a matchup that's less boring (because the terran would have more options), by protoss to turtle with colossi (which make for much worse games than templar builds) and letting terran turtle with mech.
edit: it's just like the discussion on buffing the tank: "buff the tank so that mech is more viable!" "yeah but then tvt becomes only mech vs mech, and we dont want that!"
I understand that but i disagree with comparing defensive colossus play with mech. There is nothing wrong with defensive play + harass. The problem i and maybe some other people have with Colossus play is how the army itself functions and looks. Units on top of units (if you have some air then you get a 3 layer unit cluster fuck) with pedestrian positioning and micro requirements (and opportunities for that matter) that labels it as a "1 a army". Mech is nothing like that! (Siege Tank based mech).
Colossus play is hated because the Colossus as a unit is hated, not the defensive nature of the strat.
As far as a potential Tank buff making mech vs mech the only viable option, i personally thing it should be an acceptable loss if it means you open up new strategies and options in 2 other MUs, the non mirror ones no less. Besides, with the strength of the Medivac and Marauders plus map design, i doubt bio will ever be unplayable TvT. It might take more skill then it takes now, but so what?
Sure, but i feel like a huge reason why people enjoy mech is simply beause it's so rare outside of TvT. The tank is definitely a better unit than the colossus, but at the end of the day the playstyle of sitting on 3/4 bases and maxing on raven/tank/viking (or just a ground based mech army really) isn't all that different from Protoss or Zerg turtling. The positional requirements for tanks and colossi aren't all that different (get your expensive units caught out of position once and you die), and neither is the micro involved (focus on priority targets, that's it). Sure tanks are/look better for it, my point is that at the end of the day the difference isn't that huge.
Overseers might see more use though, as Thors will likely prioritize them as well. Send in the Overseer first and then the Mutas. Thor shot will be wasted.
That said, I doubt you'd want to pick off Mines that are being guarded by a Thor anyway.
On July 16 2014 21:02 Thezzy wrote: Overseers might see more use though, as Thors will likely prioritize them as well. Send in the Overseer first and then the Mutas. Thor shot will be wasted.
That said, I doubt you'd want to pick off Mines that are being guarded by a Thor anyway.
It already shoots the overseer if it goes in first. It will still shoot zerglings if they go in first. As far as I understand, the only change is that when a new target is acquired, it prioritizes air over ground.
People are so biased when making criticisms about the balance test maps, almost selfish like. Thor change I think is fine.....Terran is already micro intensive, fixing Thor AI and having it prioritize mutas are not taking away micro........
I think the Mine Revert change is fine in PVZ, I don't see Blizzard making major design changes anyways until next expac.
I think Protoss can manage to live with out 1 build order and play style for a while.......the amount of whining about not being able to open with greedy Templar builds gets old. Terran needs something to hold them over untill next expac where Blizzard can make drastic changes for all 3 races.
On July 16 2014 21:08 Saechiis wrote: I think they should buff the non siege mode, siege tank. Give it proper micro and a damage boost so it isn't an irrelevant sidephase.
yeah, maybe let it fire while moving? could promote tanks without promoting turtling
Im happy DK decided to try reverting the widow mine nerfs. This will probably lead to more epic late game TvZ's instead of the inability to pressure zergs, making them able to mass up so much gas to build insane amounts of banes.
Against Protoss I am not sure if the new widow mines might be too effective against pure templar builds. Nonetheless, we weren't seeing a lot of templar builds during the nerfed widow mine period either because of the succes of the Colossus builds. The new mines will come in handy against those pesky late game zealots. I am curious to see PvT in the future.
On July 16 2014 20:59 Liquid`Ret wrote: Thor change is so bad, it removes micro from the equation, why anyone would ever want to make the game less fun to play / remove micro :/
if both this change and the widow mine change makes it in, we'll now have stronger widow mines that cant be picked off by muta flocks because thor will auto-shoot mutas in the face
Obviously I'm not expert here but maybe they assumed that it would be nice if thor remained useful while terran player will micro marines?
On July 16 2014 21:08 Saechiis wrote: I think they should buff the non siege mode, siege tank. Give it proper micro and a damage boost so it isn't an irrelevant sidephase.
yeah, maybe let it fire while moving? could promote tanks without promoting turtling
I miss that so much
Tanks need a Concussive shell upgrade like Maruaders have, that affects both modes.
Hmm widow mine change seems a bit too much, will revert it back to early HotS standards I think which seems a little too strong. I do like it for PvT where they can be pretty strong but for ZvT i think it's a little too much. Thor change I don't know, I think it's fine but could have a much better impact then I thought at first. Thor vs muta is a very quick fight where especially the thor volleys matter enormously, getting in just that 1 volley automatically now if they scoop into range, which otherwise might have gone on a ling can be big. But I like the change as I just think it makes sense for thors to autotarget the generally most useful target.
Time warp nerf is fine as combined with the vision of the msc did make some protoss attacks too strong. It is silly though how time warp is practically useless now though. The msc is still a huge flaw of HotS I think which as an ugly fix to PvP kind of ruined PvT. They should have made something else like a shield battery that would have allowed PvP expansion/midgame without sucking all fun out of PvT.
Well, even before that the templar builds were pretty rare. Im not sure if the (in my eyes minor) +shield buff really made the templar build impossible to pull off, or if other protoss builds were just more popular? Did Protoss really try? I am no Protoss guru, so enlighten me!
Otherwise, DK might have to revert the widow mine to its real vanilla flavour again (without +shield)!
I think Blizzard had forgotten what mines did to the game at HoTS release: no tanks. Seriously, the siege tank pretty much disappeared from the game and as a result there was a huge outcry. Also, the comparatively much greater use of mines (than present) seemed boring and arbitrary and tended to reduce exciting direct engagements between zerg and terran armies. I feel like the game is a lot better now than it was with the original mine. I think mine as it is now is pretty perfect actually in terms of watchability of the game.
I have no problem with buffing terran/nerfing zerg or protoss, I just which they could find a better way to do it than mines.
Not at all, there was a period right before the WM buff in which Templar builds were standard and considerably more popular than colossus (because none knew of a colossus build that was safe against scv pulls). This also produced some of the best PvT games to date, like the HerO vs Polt series at IEM: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/445605-how-to-run-a-pvt-clinic-hero-at-iem
The +shield buff made templar builds viable only in limited situations at best, and if this buff goes through they will stop being viable in any way.
Also, widow mines are not useful in lategame because colossi come into play, so i dont like your idea Sated
If you lead in with colossi you still have the ability to protect them with storm or stalkers; in fact, that's what you do when you are trying to break a bunker or harass a base that's protected by the terran army.
Obviously it's nice to keep protoss from amoving to victory, i just don't think a mine change would suddenly encourage protoss players to have godlike splits.
edit: if mines burrow in one second there's not much penalty to being caught out of position because they take so little time to set up and fire.
I'm ok with the widow mine damage buff, it would force more micro from Z and P, but would like to see them killed with one storm - reduce the hit points to 80.
On July 16 2014 22:59 StarscreamG1 wrote: I'm ok with the widow mine damage buff, it would force more micro from Z and P, but would like to see them killed with one storm - reduce the hit points to 80.
On July 16 2014 22:59 StarscreamG1 wrote: I'm ok with the widow mine damage buff, it would force more micro from Z and P, but would like to see them killed with one storm - reduce the hit points to 80.
The chance of unburrowing and microing a mine out of a storm is basically nonexistent so nah. Storms don't have to work perfectly against everything.
On July 16 2014 22:59 StarscreamG1 wrote: I'm ok with the widow mine damage buff, it would force more micro from Z and P, but would like to see them killed with one storm - reduce the hit points to 80.
Can't do that, banelings would oneshot them.
Isn't the baneling damage 35 vs light? It would require the same 3 banelings to kill.
On July 16 2014 22:59 StarscreamG1 wrote: I'm ok with the widow mine damage buff, it would force more micro from Z and P, but would like to see them killed with one storm - reduce the hit points to 80.
Can't do that, banelings would oneshot them.
Banelings do 35(+4) damage to them. The only difference is between +3 upgraded banelings and 80HP mines, compared to 90HP mines.
Ooooh interesting. Then i guess it would be worth considering.
I just think that Terran's real problem in PvT is the late-game, so buffing them any where else in PvT is kinda pointless.
Yup, which is why i'd rather see a Ghost change to cost (make it more gas heavy), production time, or revert some EMP nerfs from 2011, rather than buffing mines.
The real problem of WM is they required no tech and does the same dommage in early, mid, lategame, ignore armor.
Imagine if zerg had banelings speed for free without lair and they do the same dommage as +3 banelings...
The WM story was just : the WM was just too strong on early/mid game and kill the zerg who has to suffer and endless rally point of 4MM. Zerg has to spend so many gaz for baneling mutas overseer/upgrades (if you see old TvZ, Zerg never got hive/3/3 tech.
WM should make dammage based on bio upgrades to be more balanced.
Aslo if you make 4M more powerful in the late game you should consider buffing Z hatchery. In late game T can secure expansion with 1PF with upgraded range and armor and make extra CC having 3000 incoming with a single expansion. Z on the other side got is buimding weaker and weaker as the Unit DPS increase. How many times T/P just focus a building with 10 supply army and kill it no matter Z come to defend with his whole army.
On July 16 2014 22:59 StarscreamG1 wrote: I'm ok with the widow mine damage buff, it would force more micro from Z and P, but would like to see them killed with one storm - reduce the hit points to 80.
The chance of unburrowing and microing a mine out of a storm is basically nonexistent so nah. Storms don't have to work perfectly against everything.
Storm never works perfectly against anything. I have never seen a storm do its full damage to something, not even in WoL beta.
On July 16 2014 20:59 Liquid`Ret wrote: Thor change is so bad, it removes micro from the equation, why anyone would ever want to make the game less fun to play / remove micro :/
I think Terran already needs too much micro. Maybe nothing more for high class terran like Maru or Taeja etc. But pretty useful for who less than master.
On July 16 2014 23:32 Shuffleblade wrote: I wonder if the Thor is going to fire at medivacs or overlords, that would be quite a good change actually. Makes Thor possible to counter-play.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
You can refine your gameplay a bit. I stopped having deadly trouble with the random all ins or cheeses by going rax, OC, CC, rax, rax. There's enough production if it turns out to be a push, enough critical mass if its an oracle, etc.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
I seem to recall muta counters tank in brood war. Also lurker counters marine/firebat and vulture, zergling and zealot, and can soft counter goons. Defiler countered late game deathball army greatly with it's op 125 damage plague spell that hit HP through shields, even. It was one of the anti-clump-your-units-in-a-ball-to-have-infinite-point-DPS tools zerg had, and seemed to have a big range too.
Let's see, siege tank countered goliaths, hydras countered most air units, archons countered ling or muta HARD, and reaver or siege tank countered hydra. The last two are hard or soft counter depending on the micro and baiting by the person being hit by scarabs or arclite.
Brood war had counter units, too. Every RTS functions on counter units, and even in real life we function in war on counter units. AA missiles vs that jet with the big bomb on it, AT warheads or recoiless rifles vs tanks, etc.
You can't look for strategy much in a game where it doesn't matter what you make or where you send it.
You either missed my point completely or are going about this the wrong way. You can use mutas to counter tanks, but the difference here is that muta in BW wasn't designed specifically to deal with tanks. There is a difference between window mine having dmg vs. shield and a flock of mutas shooting down at unprotected tanks. Why would window mines have a special dmg vs shield? The balance team is giving you incentives to use widow mines vs. Protoss. The decision is already half-way made by the balance team on how Terran strategies should look like against Protoss units. Continue this pattern of balancing the game, then I guarantee you that the interest of the game will continue to slide.
On July 16 2014 20:59 Liquid`Ret wrote: Thor change is so bad, it removes micro from the equation, why anyone would ever want to make the game less fun to play / remove micro :/
I think Terran already needs too much micro. Maybe nothing more for high class terran like Maru or Taeja etc. But pretty useful for who less than master.
Yep and I think terrans needs too less macro to compensate that.
Oh I remember now, because Immortal is a good counter to Siege Tanks... and then they could have put a +Shield Bonus Damage on the Siege Tanks instead Widow Mines, so they can be effective against Protoss but still Immortals counter them with their own ability.
But not, the idea is "Go full Widow Mines every MU plox, it is fun to see random explosions everywhere"
On July 16 2014 23:32 Shuffleblade wrote: I wonder if the Thor is going to fire at medivacs or overlords, that would be quite a good change actually. Makes Thor possible to counter-play.
Pretty sure they will still attack anything that is attacking them, first.
On July 16 2014 23:06 Tyrhanius wrote: The real problem of WM is they required no tech and does the same dommage in early, mid, lategame, ignore armor.
Imagine if zerg had banelings speed for free without lair and they do the same dommage as +3 banelings...
The WM story was just : the WM was just too strong on early/mid game and kill the zerg who has to suffer and endless rally point of 4MM. Zerg has to spend so many gaz for baneling mutas overseer/upgrades (if you see old TvZ, Zerg never got hive/3/3 tech.
WM should make dammage based on bio upgrades to be more balanced.
Aslo if you make 4M more powerful in the late game you should consider buffing Z hatchery. In late game T can secure expansion with 1PF with upgraded range and armor and make extra CC having 3000 incoming with a single expansion. Z on the other side got is buimding weaker and weaker as the Unit DPS increase. How many times T/P just focus a building with 10 supply army and kill it no matter Z come to defend with his whole army.
BAHAHAHA....
That analogy isn't even close. Widow Mines do NO damage while not burrowed. If you cant see the very obvious ground distortion pattern of a burrowed widow mine, you deserve to lose. If you can't tell your army to run away from or focus down the widow mines before they finish moving at 2.81 speed into position taking 3 whole game seconds to burrow, where you can deal with them, you deserve to lose. If you can't get one observer out, you deserve to lose. If you cant find a terran who puts all his WMs in a clump and just go blow them all completely to hell with three banes, you deserve to lose.
Widow mines are so easy to deal with.
On July 16 2014 22:51 SatedSC2 wrote: If Protoss has to lead with Colossi to get rid of Widow Mines before being able to flood in with Chargelots then they leave their Colossi vulnerable to being sniped by Vikings that are also protected by the Mine field. It's not like you can blink Stalkers into the Mine field to shoot at the Vikings or get Templar into position to Storm them. The other option for Protoss would be to split their Chargelot's properly, which would surely be an improvement on Chargelots a-moving on ahead of the rest of the Protoss army like they currently seem to do (especially at lower levels)..?
EDIT:
It also makes PvT more positional than it already is. Terran can't get caught out of position without their Widow Mines burrowed else Chargelots will get on top of their Bio before the Mines can burrow. On the flip-side, if Protoss cedes position cheaply then it's going to be hard for them to break through the Terran with brute force, which allows the Terran to stage a slow push in much the same way they do against Zergling/Baneling in TvZ..?
Obviously I don't play Terran so I don't really know :S Just seemed like a neat idea to improve the cack-handed +Shields modification that Mines have at the moment
Actually, that is exactly what you do, blink 4 stalkers right under the vikings and the minefield kills the vikings. If they have like 2-3 vikings then you don't need to worry. If its a large ball of vikings, sacrificing 4 stalkers to kill them all is a huge advantage for a protoss.
On July 16 2014 22:47 sick_transit wrote: I think Blizzard had forgotten what mines did to the game at HoTS release: no tanks. Seriously, the siege tank pretty much disappeared from the game and as a result there was a huge outcry. Also, the comparatively much greater use of mines (than present) seemed boring and arbitrary and tended to reduce exciting direct engagements between zerg and terran armies. I feel like the game is a lot better now than it was with the original mine. I think mine as it is now is pretty perfect actually in terms of watchability of the game.
I have no problem with buffing terran/nerfing zerg or protoss, I just which they could find a better way to do it than mines.
I tend to lose when I try using siege tanks TvP anyway, even after the WM nerf. What's your point? They actually might be more powerful against P if they didn't have smartfire. Getting rid of a tiny chunk of P's army for sure is more helpful than slightly damaging and splashing those chargelots and then getting fuskered by them standing on your tanks and stalker/immortal/colossus/storm all dealing damage as well.
On July 16 2014 20:59 Liquid`Ret wrote: Thor change is so bad, it removes micro from the equation, why anyone would ever want to make the game less fun to play / remove micro :/
if both this change and the widow mine change makes it in, we'll now have stronger widow mines that cant be picked off by muta flocks because thor will auto-shoot mutas in the face
Obviously I'm not expert here but maybe they assumed that it would be nice if thor remained useful while terran player will micro marines?
Air priority is screwing me when using Thor TvZ. Those overseers or overlords don't have to be in front of a ling/bling/roach army. If Thor targets them first because ground is 8 range away and these bait ols are 9 range away, thor's shooting those things with javelins doing no ground damage. If Thor targets a ground unit, it dies quickly and then the bait ols are being shot by the Thor, so it stops doing ground damage. "But why are you using Thor vs zerg ground army?" They used to be good, exceptional for soaking up bane hits to protect marines, but they do use up that gas float that tends to accumulate from using bio, as well as putting something high power on the field. Additionally, they do stop mutas, but zerg tech switches into full ground easily enough. T's sometimes complain about not being able to remax fast enough vs Z, throwing a few Thors in can help that issue.
On July 16 2014 22:02 gneGne wrote: Im happy DK decided to try reverting the widow mine nerfs. This will probably lead to more epic late game TvZ's instead of the inability to pressure zergs, making them able to mass up so much gas to build insane amounts of banes.
Against Protoss I am not sure if the new widow mines might be too effective against pure templar builds. Nonetheless, we weren't seeing a lot of templar builds during the nerfed widow mine period either because of the succes of the Colossus builds. The new mines will come in handy against those pesky late game zealots. I am curious to see PvT in the future.
Did you forget that the Widow Mine was buffed against Protoss in patch 2.1, which was after it's splash-damage was nerfed in patch 2.0.12? That's why Templar openings are significantly weaker than Colossus openings at the moment; buffing the Widow Mine further in the early/mid game will only make the situation worse.
Patch 2.1 Widow Mine splash damage increased from 40 to 40 +40 shields
Up to 1.25 radius, splash damage will increase from 40 to 40 +40 vs. shields.
From 1.25 to 1.5 radius, splash damage will increase from 20 to 20 +20 vs. shields.
From 1.5 to 1.75 radius, splash damage will increase from 10 to 10 +10 vs. shields.
T will have a way to punish protoss for having every single unit comp in the army, or P will have to micro templar well and possibly sacrifice some other portion of their army to do it? Must complain instead of consider it fair in light of all the micro T has to do to survive storms, colossus, and all the other garbage of P.
Seriously though, putting more choices into the game and making P require to micro some units and possibly lose another portion of their army puts P into the same position as T and Z; P has to make choices now of what actions to do, rather than roll with a deathball and spam storms.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
You can refine your gameplay a bit. I stopped having deadly trouble with the random all ins or cheeses by going rax, OC, CC, rax, rax. There's enough production if it turns out to be a push, enough critical mass if its an oracle, etc.
On July 16 2014 14:21 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:26 yeaitooted wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:15 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:48 Iron_ wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
I seem to recall muta counters tank in brood war. Also lurker counters marine/firebat and vulture, zergling and zealot, and can soft counter goons. Defiler countered late game deathball army greatly with it's op 125 damage plague spell that hit HP through shields, even. It was one of the anti-clump-your-units-in-a-ball-to-have-infinite-point-DPS tools zerg had, and seemed to have a big range too.
Let's see, siege tank countered goliaths, hydras countered most air units, archons countered ling or muta HARD, and reaver or siege tank countered hydra. The last two are hard or soft counter depending on the micro and baiting by the person being hit by scarabs or arclite.
Brood war had counter units, too. Every RTS functions on counter units, and even in real life we function in war on counter units. AA missiles vs that jet with the big bomb on it, AT warheads or recoiless rifles vs tanks, etc.
You can't look for strategy much in a game where it doesn't matter what you make or where you send it.
You either missed my point completely or are going about this the wrong way. You can use mutas to counter tanks, but the difference here is that muta in BW wasn't designed specifically to deal with tanks. There is a difference between window mine having dmg vs. shield and a flock of mutas shooting down at unprotected tanks. Why would window mines have a special dmg vs shield? The balance team is giving you incentives to use widow mines vs. Protoss. The decision is already half-way made by the balance team on how Terran strategies should look like against Protoss units. Continue this pattern of balancing the game, then I guarantee you that the interest of the game will continue to slide.
Which difference does it make whether a mine does +vs shields in SC2, a Science Vessel getting rid of shields in broodwar? These things have always existed in RTS games. Designers and balancers have always created units with certain intentions in mind. Given the nature of mines: no steady attack with high burst and low dps it only makes sense to increase said burst against Protoss, since Protoss units have increased health in comparison to other races. +vs shields might not be the most elegant way to do that, but it gets the job done.
On July 16 2014 22:47 sick_transit wrote: I think Blizzard had forgotten what mines did to the game at HoTS release: no tanks. Seriously, the siege tank pretty much disappeared from the game and as a result there was a huge outcry. Also, the comparatively much greater use of mines (than present) seemed boring and arbitrary and tended to reduce exciting direct engagements between zerg and terran armies. I feel like the game is a lot better now than it was with the original mine. I think mine as it is now is pretty perfect actually in terms of watchability of the game.
I have no problem with buffing terran/nerfing zerg or protoss, I just which they could find a better way to do it than mines.
As the Tempest replaced the Carrier...the Widow Mine has replaced the Siege Tank...
Next in LOTV, the Marine, Zealot, Ultralisk and Zergling will be replaced! Then, there shall be no viable iconic SC2 units left!
Back in the Beta, I wrote this regarding the Widow Mine (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/378373-how-to-make-mech-and-stargate-play-viable) :
The power of Mech should not come from the Widow Mine, it should come from the Siege Tank. The Siege Tank should hit hard, not the Widow Mine. If Siege Tanks do enough damage then Mech will work. If they don't, then we'll constantly be looking for something that will do big damage and that we can combine with Siege Tanks so we can say "See Siege Tanks work when you use them with X!" X being the very hard hitting Warhound that was removed or Widow Mine. And in both cases, the Widow Mine and Warhound are better used alone or with other Terran play styles, than in conjunction with Siege Tanks in TvP.
Mass widow mines vs protoss was already too good vs protoss even before shields patch. People havent explored the viking/scan widow mine which is nearly unbeatable vs protoss
IF this patch goes through pvt will be a disaster for protoss.
Note that guardian shield and force field both last for 15 seconds. I can understand nerfing time warp to 15 seconds for continuity, but 10 seconds is overkill. Also, nerfing time warp means that there is even less energy tension for using photon overcharge.
While I don't think that Blizzard should add arbitrary micro to thors, (and I therefore agree with the proposed change), it should be noted this only makes terran stronger in larger army battles where you 1) run into execution difficulties for targeting mutalisks with thors and 2) there are zerg units other than mutalisks to begin with. Maybe that's good, perhaps it'll prevent mutalisks from snowballing as much because thors can be adequate late-game anti-air, forcing the zerg to trade mutalisks out of his army earlier on.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
You can refine your gameplay a bit. I stopped having deadly trouble with the random all ins or cheeses by going rax, OC, CC, rax, rax. There's enough production if it turns out to be a push, enough critical mass if its an oracle, etc.
On July 16 2014 14:21 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:26 yeaitooted wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:15 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:48 Iron_ wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
I seem to recall muta counters tank in brood war. Also lurker counters marine/firebat and vulture, zergling and zealot, and can soft counter goons. Defiler countered late game deathball army greatly with it's op 125 damage plague spell that hit HP through shields, even. It was one of the anti-clump-your-units-in-a-ball-to-have-infinite-point-DPS tools zerg had, and seemed to have a big range too.
Let's see, siege tank countered goliaths, hydras countered most air units, archons countered ling or muta HARD, and reaver or siege tank countered hydra. The last two are hard or soft counter depending on the micro and baiting by the person being hit by scarabs or arclite.
Brood war had counter units, too. Every RTS functions on counter units, and even in real life we function in war on counter units. AA missiles vs that jet with the big bomb on it, AT warheads or recoiless rifles vs tanks, etc.
You can't look for strategy much in a game where it doesn't matter what you make or where you send it.
You either missed my point completely or are going about this the wrong way. You can use mutas to counter tanks, but the difference here is that muta in BW wasn't designed specifically to deal with tanks. There is a difference between window mine having dmg vs. shield and a flock of mutas shooting down at unprotected tanks. Why would window mines have a special dmg vs shield? The balance team is giving you incentives to use widow mines vs. Protoss. The decision is already half-way made by the balance team on how Terran strategies should look like against Protoss units. Continue this pattern of balancing the game, then I guarantee you that the interest of the game will continue to slide.
Which difference does it make whether a mine does +vs shields in SC2, a Science Vessel getting rid of shields in broodwar? These things have always existed in RTS games. Designers and balancers have always created units with certain intentions in mind. Given the nature of mines: no steady attack with high burst and low dps it only makes sense to increase said burst against Protoss, since Protoss units have increased health in comparison to other races. +vs shields might not be the most elegant way to do that, but it gets the job done.
Mines in PvT don't actually do their job, imo, because they dont get used. They simply make a midgame tech tree not viable. The end result is that templar midgames dont exist, so mines are never built because they are (and will remain) useless vs colossi.
At least in Brood War archons were immune to mines. Too bad that's not a good solution for Starcraft 2 because mines have to be able to attack air, and as such hover unit immunity is ridiculous.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
You can refine your gameplay a bit. I stopped having deadly trouble with the random all ins or cheeses by going rax, OC, CC, rax, rax. There's enough production if it turns out to be a push, enough critical mass if its an oracle, etc.
On July 16 2014 14:21 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:26 yeaitooted wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:15 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:48 Iron_ wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
I seem to recall muta counters tank in brood war. Also lurker counters marine/firebat and vulture, zergling and zealot, and can soft counter goons. Defiler countered late game deathball army greatly with it's op 125 damage plague spell that hit HP through shields, even. It was one of the anti-clump-your-units-in-a-ball-to-have-infinite-point-DPS tools zerg had, and seemed to have a big range too.
Let's see, siege tank countered goliaths, hydras countered most air units, archons countered ling or muta HARD, and reaver or siege tank countered hydra. The last two are hard or soft counter depending on the micro and baiting by the person being hit by scarabs or arclite.
Brood war had counter units, too. Every RTS functions on counter units, and even in real life we function in war on counter units. AA missiles vs that jet with the big bomb on it, AT warheads or recoiless rifles vs tanks, etc.
You can't look for strategy much in a game where it doesn't matter what you make or where you send it.
You either missed my point completely or are going about this the wrong way. You can use mutas to counter tanks, but the difference here is that muta in BW wasn't designed specifically to deal with tanks. There is a difference between window mine having dmg vs. shield and a flock of mutas shooting down at unprotected tanks. Why would window mines have a special dmg vs shield? The balance team is giving you incentives to use widow mines vs. Protoss. The decision is already half-way made by the balance team on how Terran strategies should look like against Protoss units. Continue this pattern of balancing the game, then I guarantee you that the interest of the game will continue to slide.
Which difference does it make whether a mine does +vs shields in SC2, a Science Vessel getting rid of shields in broodwar? These things have always existed in RTS games. Designers and balancers have always created units with certain intentions in mind. Given the nature of mines: no steady attack with high burst and low dps it only makes sense to increase said burst against Protoss, since Protoss units have increased health in comparison to other races. +vs shields might not be the most elegant way to do that, but it gets the job done.
Mines in PvT don't actually do their job, imo, because they dont get used. They simply make a midgame tech tree not viable. The end result is that templar midgames dont exist, so mines are never built because they are (and will remain) useless vs colossi.
On July 17 2014 01:48 gneGne wrote: Its kind of funny in my eyes that a lot of people disapprove of the widow mine change, yet approve of the time warp change which seems so random.
People tend to vote against major change that would force them to play better. Time Warp change almost nothing since a fight finish in less than 10s, so they vote yes because they don't give a fuck, but against WM you will need to micro again and stuff so yeah.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
You can refine your gameplay a bit. I stopped having deadly trouble with the random all ins or cheeses by going rax, OC, CC, rax, rax. There's enough production if it turns out to be a push, enough critical mass if its an oracle, etc.
On July 16 2014 14:21 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:26 yeaitooted wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:15 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:48 Iron_ wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
I seem to recall muta counters tank in brood war. Also lurker counters marine/firebat and vulture, zergling and zealot, and can soft counter goons. Defiler countered late game deathball army greatly with it's op 125 damage plague spell that hit HP through shields, even. It was one of the anti-clump-your-units-in-a-ball-to-have-infinite-point-DPS tools zerg had, and seemed to have a big range too.
Let's see, siege tank countered goliaths, hydras countered most air units, archons countered ling or muta HARD, and reaver or siege tank countered hydra. The last two are hard or soft counter depending on the micro and baiting by the person being hit by scarabs or arclite.
Brood war had counter units, too. Every RTS functions on counter units, and even in real life we function in war on counter units. AA missiles vs that jet with the big bomb on it, AT warheads or recoiless rifles vs tanks, etc.
You can't look for strategy much in a game where it doesn't matter what you make or where you send it.
You either missed my point completely or are going about this the wrong way. You can use mutas to counter tanks, but the difference here is that muta in BW wasn't designed specifically to deal with tanks. There is a difference between window mine having dmg vs. shield and a flock of mutas shooting down at unprotected tanks. Why would window mines have a special dmg vs shield? The balance team is giving you incentives to use widow mines vs. Protoss. The decision is already half-way made by the balance team on how Terran strategies should look like against Protoss units. Continue this pattern of balancing the game, then I guarantee you that the interest of the game will continue to slide.
Which difference does it make whether a mine does +vs shields in SC2, a Science Vessel getting rid of shields in broodwar? These things have always existed in RTS games. Designers and balancers have always created units with certain intentions in mind. Given the nature of mines: no steady attack with high burst and low dps it only makes sense to increase said burst against Protoss, since Protoss units have increased health in comparison to other races. +vs shields might not be the most elegant way to do that, but it gets the job done.
Mines in PvT don't actually do their job, imo, because they dont get used. They simply make a midgame tech tree not viable. The end result is that templar midgames dont exist, so mines are never built because they are (and will remain) useless vs colossi.
I think they are actually pretty nifty when you try to Mech. They are really capable of doing a lot jobs then like anti-immortal or anti-air. They are pretty redundand though when you play bio and dont have those problems to begin with, that's true. Unless of course you play against such a Templar opening.
I really don't understand this widow mine change. I thought the original patch should address Protoss dominancy in major tournaments and Terran weak late game. Widow mine will buff mid game terran A LOT and ZvT will be a nightmare for zergs again. WM have been nerfed for a reason, back in the pre-nerf days, everybody agreed to see how OP it was. Casters even seemed uncomfortable when seeing 3 forgotten mines kills 20 mutas and so the zerg or ForGG's medivacs. No one want to see a player lose on random mines detonation, this unit is just terribe and definitely not fun to watch.
Anyway, this patch won't stop random protoss to win every tournaments and another big terran buff in TvZ is definitely not necessary, hellbats already brought a strong oppener for terrans in this match up.
If the widow mine change does go through, I hope there'll be more of those Stephano moments where Terrans implode their own army with their own widow mines. There's something nicely cathartic about those moments. Hopefully savvy Zerg players will be able to capitalize on the usual pick-up-and-disengage by using zerglings to force mines (usually left behind) to deal some damage to fleeing medivacs.
So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Oh snap, back to release WMs. I am intrigued, especially since my TvZ isn't so hot these days. I'm still not the biggest fan of WM buffs (I especially didn't like the previous stats they were proposing), but I figure reverting what was essentially a mistake on Blizzard's part is ok.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
On July 16 2014 23:06 Tyrhanius wrote: The real problem of WM is they required no tech and does the same dommage in early, mid, lategame, ignore armor.
Imagine if zerg had banelings speed for free without lair and they do the same dommage as +3 banelings...
The WM story was just : the WM was just too strong on early/mid game and kill the zerg who has to suffer and endless rally point of 4MM. Zerg has to spend so many gaz for baneling mutas overseer/upgrades (if you see old TvZ, Zerg never got hive/3/3 tech.
WM should make dammage based on bio upgrades to be more balanced.
Aslo if you make 4M more powerful in the late game you should consider buffing Z hatchery. In late game T can secure expansion with 1PF with upgraded range and armor and make extra CC having 3000 incoming with a single expansion. Z on the other side got is buimding weaker and weaker as the Unit DPS increase. How many times T/P just focus a building with 10 supply army and kill it no matter Z come to defend with his whole army.
BAHAHAHA....
That analogy isn't even close. Widow Mines do NO damage while not burrowed. If you cant see the very obvious ground distortion pattern of a burrowed widow mine, you deserve to lose. If you can't tell your army to run away from or focus down the widow mines before they finish moving at 2.81 speed into position taking 3 whole game seconds to burrow, where you can deal with them, you deserve to lose. If you can't get one observer out, you deserve to lose. If you cant find a terran who puts all his WMs in a clump and just go blow them all completely to hell with three banes, you deserve to lose.
Widow mines are so easy to deal with.
You totally miss my point. WM was OP at the beginning of HOTS. I don't know what your league but it's not how WM are used in a high level TvZ you don't make just WM and hidd them somewhere and kill zerg. You make some MMM take a position clean creep and plant WM. If T is good enought you don't bait WM with one zergling cause marines marauder kill the zergling and prevent the WM to shot for nothing. So Zerg has to engage to clean the army in a single time. Even if you doing the thing properly with the old WM the composition is so cheap that the T is not really behind and you were far from winning, in the other side a lucky WM shot can be a sentence of death for the zerg.
The WM have been nerfed for their early strenght of the 11min30 push but now T have trouble in the early/mid cause of the lack of AOE. Of course MMM is already very strong vs ling/baneling/mutas if T doesn't take some baneling connection but one good circle can make the Z snowball. So T can't really take the risk to engage on creep while Z has no reason to take fight outside creep, as the longer he waits the stronger he is and off creap fight is really something that can kill him if T split correctly, except to claim his win when he is ahead ( aslo you see some zerg making low mutas count and high baneling count excepting T can't deal with that many baneling : and that the main complain as it is more easy for low leagues player to makes a lot of baneling than babysitting high mutas low baneling, and very hard for T specially if he is on low league to perfectly split against a lot of baneling.)
My point was just making upgrades for WM could allow buff only on mid late game without touching early game, cause just reverting WM nerf is just forgetting months of game and it's just stupid to make again the same mistakes...
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
However, since Blizz seems completely unwilling to nerf Photon Overcharge, I can only assume because of the relative stability it provides to PvP, there isn't much they can do to really give Terran more options without completely overhauling one or both of the races.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge. I can think of at least a dozen builds off the top of my head that are completely dead thanks to Photon Overcharge alone.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up's early game.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
Love it so much. Love it so much. Nothing else to say, when a patch goes in the right direction (noticeably nearly reverting a change back to an older state, with the +shields upgrade truly, but still something never heard before from DK) we should just applaud.
Can't wait to see the consequences of this patch and the game evolve again from a reasonably balanced state.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge. I can think of at least a dozen builds off the top of my head that are completely dead thanks to Photon Overcharge alone.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up's early game.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
I don't agree, but I hear you feel very strongly about this. The problem is, that you cannot remove it. PvP will only be one base. It's the whole reason you can buy time vs blink and 3 gate openings. Not to mention oracle and frontal preasure. It is 100% needed for PvP to be a thing.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge. I can think of at least a dozen builds off the top of my head that are completely dead thanks to Photon Overcharge alone.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up's early game.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Its funny that the "at least a dozen builds" that are now "dead" were unstoppable all ins. People really want their 100% winrate vs P back. Heck, either that or 100% winrate v P with mech. 100% winrate v P NEEDS to happen, the real question is this: should it take 7 minutes or 50?
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge. I can think of at least a dozen builds off the top of my head that are completely dead thanks to Photon Overcharge alone.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up's early game.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Its funny that the "at least a dozen builds" that are now "dead" were unstoppable all ins. People really want their 100% winrate vs P back. Heck, either that or 100% winrate v P with mech. 100% winrate v P NEEDS to happen, the real question is this: should it take 7 minutes or 50?
Yeah because banshee harass was totally unstoppable. 1/1/1 was unstoppable. 11/11 was totally unstoppable too. And what about that totally unstoppable 2 rax gaz push with concussive. So broken.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell. That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
Photon Overcharge is the biggest culprit of the current stagnation of TvP from the Terran's point of view.
TvP has always been relatively stagnant compared to other match ups due to the things you're talking about, which are totally valid by the way, but this current level of stagnation is entirely due to Photon Overcharge.
The safety that PO provides, allows for both hyper greedy and hyper aggressive openings from Protoss that they would never be allowed to have if PO didn't exist. Having to account for the possibility of both limits even further what builds Terran can use in the match up. As a quick example it makes Reaper openings almost mandatory because knowing whether or not your opponent is being aggressive or greedy is so damn important, the Mothership Core itself contributes to this also because of how well it shuts down SCV scouts even if no other combat units are being made.
In WoL before PO existed we had early game options that don't exist anymore, things like Cloaked Banshee openings, 2/3 rax concussive shell pressure, stim timings, 1/1/1 (still works but far weaker now), or even bizarre things like Hellion openings.
These kinds of openings being viable allow greater opportunities for builds into Mech whereas now every viable opener Terrans have build much more safely into Bio play than they do into Mech.
PO is a big problem in the match up if you're talking about options and variety. It bottlenecks the early game so severely that creating additional midgame variety from such a narrow array of early game options seems hilariously unlikely.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge. I can think of at least a dozen builds off the top of my head that are completely dead thanks to Photon Overcharge alone.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up's early game.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
I don't agree, but I hear you feel very strongly about this. The problem is, that you cannot remove it. PvP will only be one base. It's the whole reason you can buy time vs blink and 3 gate openings. Not to mention oracle and frontal preasure. It is 100% needed for PvP to be a thing.
I understand PO's importance to PvP, but I personally feel that PO is just a band aid that covers up huge design flaws in PvP that require a spell like it in order for the match up to have stability.
I'd rather fix PvP in a way that doesn't require a massive early game crutch if I had my way.
Just a quick question : can someone precise how +shields damage will work with this new full 1.75 splash ? Is this going to be decreasing like before or just 40 (+40 shields) flat in the 1.75 radius ? If it's the latter, whoa, it's a HUGE buff.
Harass wise, Terran actually can do the hellion/medivac/marine pushes which work pretty nicely imo. They just lack the ability to do any straight up pushes pre medivacs, which would be easily solved by reducing the stim research time (without impacting tvz too!).
There's nothing imbalanced about templar vs colossus pvt imo because they will always get scouted by the medivac push, and the terran can react in time to both styles.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge. I can think of at least a dozen builds off the top of my head that are completely dead thanks to Photon Overcharge alone.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up's early game.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
I don't agree, but I hear you feel very strongly about this. The problem is, that you cannot remove it. PvP will only be one base. It's the whole reason you can buy time vs blink and 3 gate openings. Not to mention oracle and frontal preasure. It is 100% needed for PvP to be a thing.
I understand PO's importance to PvP, but I personally feel that PO is just a band aid that covers up huge design flaws in PvP that require a spell like it in order for the match up to have stability.
I'd rather fix PvP in a way that doesn't require a massive early game crutch if I had my way.
It would have to involve stalkers doing less damage to shield and the removal of the Oracle. I don't see any other way.
On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote: Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me.
Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing!
From the Terran perspective it is already the most boring non mirror MU. The strategy is literally chosen for you the moment you picked Terran.
EDIT: And what's the problem with Terran having viable defensive strategies (mech)? Should it be only Protoss that can go full aggression and turtle?
I'm just pointing out that it's contraddictory to ask for a matchup that's less boring (because the terran would have more options), by protoss to turtle with colossi (which make for much worse games than templar builds) and letting terran turtle with mech.
edit: it's just like the discussion on buffing the tank: "buff the tank so that mech is more viable!" "yeah but then tvt becomes only mech vs mech, and we dont want that!"
I understand that but i disagree with comparing defensive colossus play with mech. There is nothing wrong with defensive play + harass. The problem i and maybe some other people have with Colossus play is how the army itself functions and looks. Units on top of units (if you have some air then you get a 3 layer unit cluster fuck) with pedestrian positioning and micro requirements (and opportunities for that matter) that labels it as a "1 a army". Mech is nothing like that! (Siege Tank based mech).
Colossus play is hated because the Colossus as a unit is hated, not the defensive nature of the strat.
As far as a potential Tank buff making mech vs mech the only viable option, i personally thing it should be an acceptable loss if it means you open up new strategies and options in 2 other MUs, the non mirror ones no less. Besides, with the strength of the Medivac and Marauders plus map design, i doubt bio will ever be unplayable TvT. It might take more skill then it takes now, but so what?
Sure, but i feel like a huge reason why people enjoy mech is simply beause it's so rare outside of TvT. The tank is definitely a better unit than the colossus, but at the end of the day the playstyle of sitting on 3/4 bases and maxing on raven/tank/viking (or just a ground based mech army really) isn't all that different from Protoss or Zerg turtling. The positional requirements for tanks and colossi aren't all that different (get your expensive units caught out of position once and you die), and neither is the micro involved (focus on priority targets, that's it). Sure tanks are/look better for it, my point is that at the end of the day the difference isn't that huge.
Turtle mech is very boring indeed, but there is also a different way. If you open agressively (i mech in tvp) ,by using for example a hellion drop, and doing enough damage you get an opening that allows you to split off some hellions and banshees to harrass while you build up your beautiful mech army. When this happens, this creates extremely fun games to play and to watch since there's action, jabs and defences throughout the game, with the protoss having to harrass aswell to keep up.
provided, I don't play at a high level at all, but I still think it is the most fun matchup in the game when that happens
I think people forget an offensive "turtle" style play is called a contain. Funny enough contains haven't been possible in SC2 at all. Buffing tanks may make the game slower at first but people will learn how to break tank lines and terrans will figure out how to be aggressive with tanks.
FURTHER then 50% decrease on time warp oO ? and yes with the +shield dmg its already an epic anti worker weapon the mine, with more range workers have no chance ^^ perhaps +bio or something or remove this +shield and give it overall more power
OK, I played the balance test map. This seems that the splash is a full 40 (+40 shields) ; this is a tad too much. +shields damage should at least be decreased to be closer to what they were with that patch. This mine would really slaughter chargelots and definitively compel Protoss into colossi openings forever, while a 40 + 40/20/10 would still be manageable for those brave enough to still open charge + storm.
People are hugely exaggerating when they talk about Turtleplaystyles in general. They are plainly not boring per se. Turtling is an art and breaking a turtling player or yourself in the process is the best gameplay possible in the genre. For as long as there is no requirement to turtle, I see no problem with it. The choice is yours!
The only problem that is around with turtling are incredibly dull lategame mechanics, but not the strategies per se. Swarm Hosts/Colossi/Tempests create boring games and Raven/BC/mass Mule allow Terrans to turtle beyond turtling.
I've posted it a lot, but the BW Mech dynamic does not work at all in SC2. Mech is frankly overpowered even in BW. There's a reason why Terran is by far the most successful race in professional BW. In SC2, it would be much worse.
In BW, a Mech army is basically unbeatable by anything that doesn't cost at least 200% of what it does. You simply cannot fight a Mech army unless they make a serious mistake (you catch them unsieged, drag a mine into 15 tanks, etc) or you have a massive tech advantage, such as having arbiters when they have no science vessels. The only drawback of the mech army is that it's very, very slow. You beat it by stalling, harassing, and then going around it. In TvP in BW it's not uncommon for a Terran player to build 100 missile turrets throughout the game to prevent recalls, drops, and scouting. That's 7500 minerals not being put into the main army, but in BW that's OK because the Mech army is so absurdly strong that it will still easily beat the opponent despite being 7500 resources down.
In BW, when the Terran mech army pushes towards an expansion, you're going to lose that expansion. There's nothing you can do about it, you can only slow them down. You win by causing more damage to them via harassment/drops/recalls while they slow push than the expansion was worth, and/or by taking two more expansions while they're slow pushing. In SC2, this kind of dynamic will never work because your economy caps out at 3 bases. The Terran player is basically assured that once he pushes over your third, you're going to lose about half of your economy right there, as your main is probably close to dry at that point. Even if you made two more expansions, you still have to worker them up after you lose your third. Remember that in BW you can profitably have 5 or 6 expansions with a dozen workers on each. Since the second worker per mineral patch in BW is far less efficient than the first, you hit diminishing returns after assigning just 11 workers to a base. This makes it effective to take many bases and also makes it hurt less if you lose one because there's fewer workers there. In SC2 you need 22 workers on a base before you hit diminishing returns, which makes it impossible to take many bases and makes losing one crippling.
This is why BW-style mech in SC2 would just be ridiculous. I'm going to push towards your third, you can't stop me from killing it, and you can't possibly do enough damage to me to make up for losing it. Even if you backstab my main and kill all my production, the mech army I have on the field right now is probably enough to kill everything you have plus everything you can still produce with the remaining resources in your main + natural.
On July 17 2014 06:28 Xequecal wrote: I've posted it a lot, but the BW Mech dynamic does not work at all in SC2. Mech is frankly overpowered even in BW. There's a reason why Terran is by far the most successful race in professional BW. In SC2, it would be much worse.
In BW, a Mech army is basically unbeatable by anything that doesn't cost at least 200% of what it does. You simply cannot fight a Mech army unless they make a serious mistake (you catch them unsieged, drag a mine into 15 tanks, etc) or you have a massive tech advantage, such as having arbiters when they have no science vessels. The only drawback of the mech army is that it's very, very slow. You beat it by stalling, harassing, and then going around it. In TvP in BW it's not uncommon for a Terran player to build 100 missile turrets throughout the game to prevent recalls, drops, and scouting. That's 7500 minerals not being put into the main army, but in BW that's OK because the Mech army is so absurdly strong that it will still easily beat the opponent despite being 7500 resources down.
In BW, when the Terran mech army pushes towards an expansion, you're going to lose that expansion. There's nothing you can do about it, you can only slow them down. You win by causing more damage to them via harassment/drops/recalls while they slow push than the expansion was worth, and/or by taking two more expansions while they're slow pushing. In SC2, this kind of dynamic will never work because your economy caps out at 3 bases. The Terran player is basically assured that once he pushes over your third, you're going to lose about half of your economy right there, as your main is probably close to dry at that point. Even if you made two more expansions, you still have to worker them up after you lose your third. Remember that in BW you can profitably have 5 or 6 expansions with a dozen workers on each. Since the second worker per mineral patch in BW is far less efficient than the first, you hit diminishing returns after assigning just 11 workers to a base. This makes it effective to take many bases and also makes it hurt less if you lose one because there's fewer workers there. In SC2 you need 22 workers on a base before you hit diminishing returns, which makes it impossible to take many bases and makes losing one crippling.
This is why BW-style mech in SC2 would just be ridiculous. I'm going to push towards your third, you can't stop me from killing it, and you can't possibly do enough damage to me to make up for losing it. Even if you backstab my main and kill all my production, the mech army I have on the field right now is probably enough to kill everything you have plus everything you can still produce with the remaining resources in your main + natural.
yet, we have seen other mech dynamics over the course of SC2 that actually did work and provided interesting gameplay. Late WoL TvZ Mech was interesting and kind of aggressive, but would often leave midgame vulnerabilities (and of course fell flat on its face against BL/Infestor most of the time) Current Mech against Terran isn't that turtly, you can do 3-4base pushes. Even the SH vs Mech scenarios of current TvZ can be very entertaining, if both players do actually try to push into each other (like Life vs Flash) and don't decide at 15mins to go for the mineout.
On July 17 2014 06:23 Big J wrote: People are hugely exaggerating when they talk about Turtleplaystyles in general. They are plainly not boring per se. Turtling is an art and breaking a turtling player or yourself in the process is the best gameplay possible in the genre. For as long as there is no requirement to turtle, I see no problem with it. The choice is yours!
The only problem that is around with turtling are incredibly dull lategame mechanics, but not the strategies per se. Swarm Hosts/Colossi/Tempests create boring games and Raven/BC/mass Mule allow Terrans to turtle beyond turtling.
I have watched all 3 hours of soulkey vs reality. I have scars.
On July 17 2014 06:23 Big J wrote: People are hugely exaggerating when they talk about Turtleplaystyles in general. They are plainly not boring per se. Turtling is an art and breaking a turtling player or yourself in the process is the best gameplay possible in the genre. For as long as there is no requirement to turtle, I see no problem with it. The choice is yours!
The only problem that is around with turtling are incredibly dull lategame mechanics, but not the strategies per se. Swarm Hosts/Colossi/Tempests create boring games and Raven/BC/mass Mule allow Terrans to turtle beyond turtling.
I have watched all 3 hours of soulkey vs reality. I have scars.
I have watched all 4years of T1 units running into the meatgrinder. I have scars as well.
Late WoL TvZ Mech was interesting and kind of aggressive, but would often leave midgame vulnerabilities (and of course fell flat on its face against BL/Infestor most of the time)
Examples? Vods?
All I remember here is Ty dropping siege tanks vs broodlord/infestor, but he was the only guy who ever did that and probably only worked cus noone was expecting it.
Even the SH vs Mech scenarios of current TvZ can be very entertaining, if both players do actually try to push into each other (like Life vs Flash) and don't decide at 15mins to go for the mineou
Only thing different about that game from the average Avilo TvZ (besides quality) was the commentators. They can be good at deceiving people into thinking bad games are entertaining.
Current Mech against Terran isn't that turtly, you can do 3-4base pushes.
Mech TvT is great because while bio is the more mobile army it doens't really have any period in the game where it has the stronger army. That was different from WOL where bio play in an open field was better than mech untill mech reached critical mass.
On July 17 2014 06:28 Xequecal wrote: I've posted it a lot, but the BW Mech dynamic does not work at all in SC2. Mech is frankly overpowered even in BW. There's a reason why Terran is by far the most successful race in professional BW. In SC2, it would be much worse.
In BW, a Mech army is basically unbeatable by anything that doesn't cost at least 200% of what it does. You simply cannot fight a Mech army unless they make a serious mistake (you catch them unsieged, drag a mine into 15 tanks, etc) or you have a massive tech advantage, such as having arbiters when they have no science vessels. The only drawback of the mech army is that it's very, very slow. You beat it by stalling, harassing, and then going around it. In TvP in BW it's not uncommon for a Terran player to build 100 missile turrets throughout the game to prevent recalls, drops, and scouting. That's 7500 minerals not being put into the main army, but in BW that's OK because the Mech army is so absurdly strong that it will still easily beat the opponent despite being 7500 resources down.
In BW, when the Terran mech army pushes towards an expansion, you're going to lose that expansion. There's nothing you can do about it, you can only slow them down. You win by causing more damage to them via harassment/drops/recalls while they slow push than the expansion was worth, and/or by taking two more expansions while they're slow pushing. In SC2, this kind of dynamic will never work because your economy caps out at 3 bases. The Terran player is basically assured that once he pushes over your third, you're going to lose about half of your economy right there, as your main is probably close to dry at that point. Even if you made two more expansions, you still have to worker them up after you lose your third. Remember that in BW you can profitably have 5 or 6 expansions with a dozen workers on each. Since the second worker per mineral patch in BW is far less efficient than the first, you hit diminishing returns after assigning just 11 workers to a base. This makes it effective to take many bases and also makes it hurt less if you lose one because there's fewer workers there. In SC2 you need 22 workers on a base before you hit diminishing returns, which makes it impossible to take many bases and makes losing one crippling.
This is why BW-style mech in SC2 would just be ridiculous. I'm going to push towards your third, you can't stop me from killing it, and you can't possibly do enough damage to me to make up for losing it. Even if you backstab my main and kill all my production, the mech army I have on the field right now is probably enough to kill everything you have plus everything you can still produce with the remaining resources in your main + natural.
This is an excellent analysis (I read the one you posted before, as well), but I'm not sure if your cynicism is warranted. OK, mech doesn't work if it trades at 200% efficiency, what if it trades at 150% efficiency? What if it trades at 133% efficiency? So that there's no guarantee of it destroying an expansion, just a reasonable chance of it. Surely there has to be a number somewhere between 0% efficiency and 200% at which mech isn't garbage but also doesn't destroy the game.
Alternately, what if we introduce high-tech, mid/late-game ways of mining that don't rely on workers? That way it would be possible to have a 5/6 base economy going without crippling your army.
It really doesn't feel like all the options for making more than 1/2 of Terran tech tree usable are being explored, here.
Late WoL TvZ Mech was interesting and kind of aggressive, but would often leave midgame vulnerabilities (and of course fell flat on its face against BL/Infestor most of the time)
Examples? Vods?
All I remember here is Ty dropping siege tanks vs broodlord/infestor, but he was the only guy who ever did that and probably only worked cus noone was expecting it.
Especially game 1 of this series, but also in game 3 where Lucifron turtles up much more after the banshee harass, he still really tries to push very aggressively in the lategame. + Show Spoiler +
Then of course the Mvp vs Life series comes to mind, with lots of early hellion play and strong mid-lategame pushes by Mvp.
Even the SH vs Mech scenarios of current TvZ can be very entertaining, if both players do actually try to push into each other (like Life vs Flash) and don't decide at 15mins to go for the mineout
Only thing different about that game from the average Avilo TvZ (besides quality) was the commentators. They can be good at deceiving people into thinking bad games are entertaining.
I just can't agree with that. If you compare how Life tries to push the issue all game long to someone like Stephano immidiatly going into SHs upon seeing Mech, there is a vast difference. Life opens with a speedling timing into fast mutas, then builds the minimum amount of Swarm Hosts to serve their purpose and harasses with mutas and ling runbies. When flash gets his raven count up around 20mins, he aggressively tries to catch them with infestors, etc. Yes, after 30mins the game slows down and flash's win starts to shine through. Yet, it still has its moments (the continuous attempts to fungal, muta and ultralisk plays) and its nowhere near bad ever.
On July 17 2014 06:28 Xequecal wrote: I've posted it a lot, but the BW Mech dynamic does not work at all in SC2. Mech is frankly overpowered even in BW. There's a reason why Terran is by far the most successful race in professional BW. In SC2, it would be much worse.
In BW, a Mech army is basically unbeatable by anything that doesn't cost at least 200% of what it does. You simply cannot fight a Mech army unless they make a serious mistake (you catch them unsieged, drag a mine into 15 tanks, etc) or you have a massive tech advantage, such as having arbiters when they have no science vessels. The only drawback of the mech army is that it's very, very slow. You beat it by stalling, harassing, and then going around it. In TvP in BW it's not uncommon for a Terran player to build 100 missile turrets throughout the game to prevent recalls, drops, and scouting. That's 7500 minerals not being put into the main army, but in BW that's OK because the Mech army is so absurdly strong that it will still easily beat the opponent despite being 7500 resources down.
In BW, when the Terran mech army pushes towards an expansion, you're going to lose that expansion. There's nothing you can do about it, you can only slow them down. You win by causing more damage to them via harassment/drops/recalls while they slow push than the expansion was worth, and/or by taking two more expansions while they're slow pushing. In SC2, this kind of dynamic will never work because your economy caps out at 3 bases. The Terran player is basically assured that once he pushes over your third, you're going to lose about half of your economy right there, as your main is probably close to dry at that point. Even if you made two more expansions, you still have to worker them up after you lose your third. Remember that in BW you can profitably have 5 or 6 expansions with a dozen workers on each. Since the second worker per mineral patch in BW is far less efficient than the first, you hit diminishing returns after assigning just 11 workers to a base. This makes it effective to take many bases and also makes it hurt less if you lose one because there's fewer workers there. In SC2 you need 22 workers on a base before you hit diminishing returns, which makes it impossible to take many bases and makes losing one crippling.
This is why BW-style mech in SC2 would just be ridiculous. I'm going to push towards your third, you can't stop me from killing it, and you can't possibly do enough damage to me to make up for losing it. Even if you backstab my main and kill all my production, the mech army I have on the field right now is probably enough to kill everything you have plus everything you can still produce with the remaining resources in your main + natural.
This is an excellent analysis (I read the one you posted before, as well), but I'm not sure if your cynicism is warranted. OK, mech doesn't work if it trades at 200% efficiency, what if it trades at 150% efficiency? What if it trades at 133% efficiency? So that there's no guarantee of it destroying an expansion, just a reasonable chance of it. Surely there has to be a number somewhere between 0% efficiency and 200% at which mech isn't garbage but also doesn't destroy the game.
Alternately, what if we introduce high-tech, mid/late-game ways of mining that don't rely on workers? That way it would be possible to have a 5/6 base economy going without crippling your army.
It really doesn't feel like all the options for making more than 1/2 of Terran tech tree usable are being explored, here.
I just can't agree with that. If you compare how Life tries to push the issue all game long to someone like Stephano immidiatly going into SHs upon seeing Mech,
Well at one point in the game Totalbisucit praised Life for setting his Swarm Hosts to kill the backdoor Rocks. Not that any action at all occured from this, but apparently this overhyping caster thought it was exciting.
Again, if you watch Avilo play, it's not unusual for zergs to try and do something/move a bit around with Swarm Hosts. What happened in the Life vs Flash game was extremely standard Swarm host vs Raven play where basically nothing happened all game long. A bit moving around here and there. Mutalisks killing a unit once in a while, Locusts picking of a tank etc.
I hate singling out this game as some type of unusual TvZ mech play, when in fact these types of games are quite common when you go for mech. Personally, I actually do like to watch these types of game occationally, but that doesn't make the game objectively good. Rather, it's just the concept of seeing something different where you do not really know exactly what's gonna happen, that makes it more enjoyable.
Especially game 1 of this series, but also in game 3 where Lucifron turtles up much more after the banshee harass, he still really tries to push very aggressively in the lategame.
The midgame in Luci vs Stephano was still very weak as reflecting Hellion harass isn't very challenging. Then it really comes down to just a timing attacks, and in that way mech was never really differenatied from bio play in late WOL. It had the same dynamic as bio play but with less micro basically.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
You can refine your gameplay a bit. I stopped having deadly trouble with the random all ins or cheeses by going rax, OC, CC, rax, rax. There's enough production if it turns out to be a push, enough critical mass if its an oracle, etc.
On July 16 2014 14:21 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:26 yeaitooted wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:15 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:48 Iron_ wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
I seem to recall muta counters tank in brood war. Also lurker counters marine/firebat and vulture, zergling and zealot, and can soft counter goons. Defiler countered late game deathball army greatly with it's op 125 damage plague spell that hit HP through shields, even. It was one of the anti-clump-your-units-in-a-ball-to-have-infinite-point-DPS tools zerg had, and seemed to have a big range too.
Let's see, siege tank countered goliaths, hydras countered most air units, archons countered ling or muta HARD, and reaver or siege tank countered hydra. The last two are hard or soft counter depending on the micro and baiting by the person being hit by scarabs or arclite.
Brood war had counter units, too. Every RTS functions on counter units, and even in real life we function in war on counter units. AA missiles vs that jet with the big bomb on it, AT warheads or recoiless rifles vs tanks, etc.
You can't look for strategy much in a game where it doesn't matter what you make or where you send it.
You either missed my point completely or are going about this the wrong way. You can use mutas to counter tanks, but the difference here is that muta in BW wasn't designed specifically to deal with tanks. There is a difference between window mine having dmg vs. shield and a flock of mutas shooting down at unprotected tanks. Why would window mines have a special dmg vs shield? The balance team is giving you incentives to use widow mines vs. Protoss. The decision is already half-way made by the balance team on how Terran strategies should look like against Protoss units. Continue this pattern of balancing the game, then I guarantee you that the interest of the game will continue to slide.
Which difference does it make whether a mine does +vs shields in SC2, a Science Vessel getting rid of shields in broodwar? These things have always existed in RTS games. Designers and balancers have always created units with certain intentions in mind. Given the nature of mines: no steady attack with high burst and low dps it only makes sense to increase said burst against Protoss, since Protoss units have increased health in comparison to other races. +vs shields might not be the most elegant way to do that, but it gets the job done.
I am not sure how you can make a straight up comparison between a spellcasting unit and a disposable/tradable unit. While we are at it, why don't we give marines an extra damage vs. shield too? That's gotta be OK since Protoss has more HP and shield, plus Science Vessel was able to shoot EMPs in BW, right?
If they are serious about this widowmine i really hope they look at zealots/templar in pvt. Perhaps nerf charge a bit and buff zealot speed or make storm do 90 damage over 5seconds(less dmg per tick). Something along these lines shouldnt be to big of a deal overall?
So much crying and its only in the test phase. Why can people never wait until things fully implemented and they show results to complain about changes?
On July 17 2014 08:55 ClanRH.TV wrote: So much crying and its only in the test phase. Why can people never wait until things fully implemented and they show results to complain about changes?
Because its pretty obvious by this point that whatever the final result is, it will be a poor decision with these starting points.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
For the sake of argument, chess is exactly the same way. You might want to "be different" and field two rooks in some manner, but based on what your opponent has already set up on the board, it might be a terrible move rather than just going with the well known and well trodden strategy that wins the game.
Every strategy game has sub-optimal moves, and what you might be asking is for them to nerf bio and buff mech vs P so that the opposite occurs. The cheapest and most effective means of beating the opp is how a game is played. That will never change.
As an example of something that could increase utility and diversity of mech while not really affecting much, give Thor punisher cannons a bit faster shot or more damage or more range. Personally, I'd like to see them fast firing like 0.23 at around 16 damage or so.
But a 11-12 range might work better with tanks and vikings for killing colossus, and then suddenly kiting and microing just a little bit by colossus isn't an issue. Now P has to really move colossus away from their army in order to avoid the combined effect of thor-viking hitting them, and since thor prioritizes air (for now), thor should pretty much auto-target colossus.
Now thor has better effectiveness in TvP, because it counters a unit that hard counters your core units, and it has a ton of hp to weather any storm funny business. The ground shots are also nice for anti-archon work.
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Looks like the collosus opening needs to be nerfed until it gets used equally with HT openings
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Looks like the collosus opening needs to be nerfed until it gets used equally with HT openings
That's a stupid thing to say. Balancing the game doesn't mean mindlessly nerfing the race you don't play.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Looks like the collosus opening needs to be nerfed until it gets used equally with HT openings
That's a stupid thing to say. Balancing the game doesn't mean mindlessly nerfing the race you don't play.
Templar openings are far more fun to play, watch and to play against. Too bad templars are strong enough as it is in the lategame.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Looks like the collosus opening needs to be nerfed until it gets used equally with HT openings
That's a stupid thing to say. Balancing the game doesn't mean mindlessly nerfing the race you don't play.
I keep bringing this up and not getting any responses. Have we actually seen Koreans play Templar openings after +shields? For all we know, Templar is balanced and not UP. Colo being OP as it always has (Protoss was always favored in lategame, nothing new here) would be sufficient explanation for Templar being completely phased out. It's RELATIVELY UP and a lot harder to play, so why bother?
That doesn't mean Templar is bad in an objective sense. It might be. If someone has relevant games to link, please do! I'd love to see top Korean PvT with Templar openings in the last month and a half.
So many people expressing concerns about mines in protoss mineral lines; personally I don't think it would change much. Right now they already do a ton of damage if protoss don't react and they do zero damage if reacted. That's not going to change.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
You can refine your gameplay a bit. I stopped having deadly trouble with the random all ins or cheeses by going rax, OC, CC, rax, rax. There's enough production if it turns out to be a push, enough critical mass if its an oracle, etc.
On July 16 2014 14:21 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:26 yeaitooted wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:15 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:48 Iron_ wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
I seem to recall muta counters tank in brood war. Also lurker counters marine/firebat and vulture, zergling and zealot, and can soft counter goons. Defiler countered late game deathball army greatly with it's op 125 damage plague spell that hit HP through shields, even. It was one of the anti-clump-your-units-in-a-ball-to-have-infinite-point-DPS tools zerg had, and seemed to have a big range too.
Let's see, siege tank countered goliaths, hydras countered most air units, archons countered ling or muta HARD, and reaver or siege tank countered hydra. The last two are hard or soft counter depending on the micro and baiting by the person being hit by scarabs or arclite.
Brood war had counter units, too. Every RTS functions on counter units, and even in real life we function in war on counter units. AA missiles vs that jet with the big bomb on it, AT warheads or recoiless rifles vs tanks, etc.
You can't look for strategy much in a game where it doesn't matter what you make or where you send it.
You either missed my point completely or are going about this the wrong way. You can use mutas to counter tanks, but the difference here is that muta in BW wasn't designed specifically to deal with tanks. There is a difference between window mine having dmg vs. shield and a flock of mutas shooting down at unprotected tanks. Why would window mines have a special dmg vs shield? The balance team is giving you incentives to use widow mines vs. Protoss. The decision is already half-way made by the balance team on how Terran strategies should look like against Protoss units. Continue this pattern of balancing the game, then I guarantee you that the interest of the game will continue to slide.
Which difference does it make whether a mine does +vs shields in SC2, a Science Vessel getting rid of shields in broodwar? These things have always existed in RTS games. Designers and balancers have always created units with certain intentions in mind. Given the nature of mines: no steady attack with high burst and low dps it only makes sense to increase said burst against Protoss, since Protoss units have increased health in comparison to other races. +vs shields might not be the most elegant way to do that, but it gets the job done.
I am not sure how you can make a straight up comparison between a spellcasting unit and a disposable/tradable unit. While we are at it, why don't we give marines an extra damage vs. shield too? That's gotta be OK since Protoss has more HP and shield, plus Science Vessel was able to shoot EMPs in BW, right?
Given the nature of mines: no steady attack with high burst and low dps In which way does that apply to marines? Mines rely on killing things in one blow. If you don't kill something with a mine, the opponent is just going to clean up the mine without a loss in the 40seconds window afterwards. On the flipside, if you let marines fight stalkers, it doesn't matter that stalkers are more beefy than your regular T/Z unit, because they also deal less damage.
On July 17 2014 10:12 Salient wrote: It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Protoss has way too many openings in PvT while terran has too few, cutting down the number of options from toss is actually a step in the RIGHT direction for balance in PvT. The problem is not that toss late game is so broken, its that protoss early game is so ridiculously varied and a good protoss can easily deny the reaper scout making the matchup a coinflip for terran to build order lose. Having a 33% chance to instantly lose the game if you choose incorrectly and a 2/3 chance to just have a normal game if you guess correctly is not fair. These buffs/nerfs will actually allow terran to more safely reach the mid game and late game much more often resulting in a more balanced matchup. We do need more variance, but we need more late game variance, not early game.
Early game builds should be standardized in terms of aggression, otherwise you will see pro players lose based on build orders (which happens way too much in this game). While being too greedy should be punished, playing standard should not be (i.e. ultra fast oracles, blink all in). Most of these things have been fixed in WOL, if you remember Stim timing in TvP or Double Chrono'd zealot in PvZ.. but a few new ones have arisen in HOTS that definitely need to be taken care of.
Once the early game becomes a game about who is BETTER, not whos build order counters whos. Then you can move on to making the game more varied. You can make builds that segway into Stargates by possibly lowering the cost of protoss air upgrades, Remember Phoenix/Colossus? I would like to see this build return.
Thors, BC's, Carriers, Broodlords, Tanks, Infestors (Neural sucks!) all need very minor tweaks to make them more applicable in mainstream games, but not in a way that they become the norm... just in a way that they are viable. Thors could be given +1 ground range, while tanks given a buff in damage output vs. light. Broodlords might need a slight boost in speed by .15. Extremely minor changes make the world of difference with units.
On July 17 2014 10:12 Salient wrote: It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Protoss has way too many openings in PvT while terran has too few, cutting down the number of options from toss is actually a step in the RIGHT direction for balance in PvT. The problem is not that toss late game is so broken, its that protoss early game is so ridiculously varied and a good protoss can easily deny the reaper scout making the matchup a coinflip for terran to build order lose. Having a 33% chance to instantly lose the game if you choose incorrectly and a 2/3 chance to just have a normal game if you guess correctly is not fair. These buffs/nerfs will actually allow terran to more safely reach the mid game and late game much more often resulting in a more balanced matchup. We do need more variance, but we need more late game variance, not early game.
Early game builds should be standardized in terms of aggression, otherwise you will see pro players lose based on build orders (which happens way too much in this game). While being too greedy should be punished, playing standard should not be (i.e. ultra fast oracles, blink all in). Most of these things have been fixed in WOL, if you remember Stim timing in TvP or Double Chrono'd zealot in PvZ.. but a few new ones have arisen in HOTS that definitely need to be taken care of.
Once the early game becomes a game about who is BETTER, not whos build order counters whos. Then you can move on to making the game more varied. You can make builds that segway into Stargates by possibly lowering the cost of protoss air upgrades, Remember Phoenix/Colossus? I would like to see this build return.
Thors, BC's, Carriers, Broodlords, Tanks, Infestors (Neural sucks!) all need very minor tweaks to make them more applicable in mainstream games, but not in a way that they become the norm... just in a way that they are viable. Thors could be given +1 ground range, while tanks given a buff in damage output vs. light. Broodlords might need a slight boost in speed by .15. Extremely minor changes make the world of difference with units.
As much se I understand you, you do not probably realize how boring is it to watch colossus play EVERY time again and again and again ><
On July 16 2014 18:28 Extenz wrote: I dont understand why its so hard to just remove muta regen, a unit that can harass you to death while getting damaged and keeping your opponent at home is not right.
You could make Muta's fast regen cost minerals and let player turn it on and off
aka use Queens for that job.
That means you will have to have few queens dedicated to healing muta flock = that's extra minerals and supply you will have to use on units that are not really pressing the opponent. What's more, on bigger maps you will have to fly back which takes a while and leaves opponent free to do stuff in this time window.
I'd rather see the regeneration scale up and down depending on the Muta's health, as well as a 5 to 10 cooldown before it starts to ramp up.
The lower the health, the better the regeneration, to a max of what we have currently. This means at around 10-20% health a Muta will heal fast but once it reaches near 60-70% it will only be a little faster than regular Zerg regeneration.
This allows Zergs to still put on pressure and the flock can take a mine hit, but it reduces the amount of constant pressure and damage absorption that the Mutas currently dish out. If the flock keeps hovering around 70% health and there's a cooldown before they regenerate, Zerg will have to be a bit more careful.
The only other change to help against the Muta flock as Terran that I can think of is to buff the Viking by giving it +biological damage (or +light since its Air) and maybe +1 armor.
On July 17 2014 08:55 ClanRH.TV wrote: So much crying and its only in the test phase. Why can people never wait until things fully implemented and they show results to complain about changes?
Because none plays the test maps that are only a public relations trick, so the "test phase" is nonexistent and if the patch goes online or not is decided by other factors, and someone thinks that this thread could be one.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Looks like the collosus opening needs to be nerfed until it gets used equally with HT openings
That's a stupid thing to say. Balancing the game doesn't mean mindlessly nerfing the race you don't play.
I keep bringing this up and not getting any responses. Have we actually seen Koreans play Templar openings after +shields? For all we know, Templar is balanced and not UP. Colo being OP as it always has (Protoss was always favored in lategame, nothing new here) would be sufficient explanation for Templar being completely phased out. It's RELATIVELY UP and a lot harder to play, so why bother?
That doesn't mean Templar is bad in an objective sense. It might be. If someone has relevant games to link, please do! I'd love to see top Korean PvT with Templar openings in the last month and a half.
Well we see almost none koreans play Templar openings after +shiled buff. The last time I remember someone playing that opening was Dear on frost a while ago (don't remember his oppenent) and he was shut down hard, couldn't put 3rd base so he went hidden expo and still lost. You suggest that templar openings are ok simply colo/stalker are OP. However as I remember the period where templar opening emerged at the beggining of the HOTS, after colo/stalker being used exclusively in WoL, I wouldn't say it was OP nor that terrans where stuggling against it. Actually back then it PvT was really interesting, rather balanced and cool to watch matchup. So right now with this +shield buff to WM if we look at it in the vacuum, yes templar opening are worse than before, when they were (I believe) fairly balanced. What people are asking for is other buff to terran which helps against colo openings whereas WM buffs don't address it at all and even further force P's to play either really passively/greedy with colo or go for one of build form "Great Protoss Book of Bullshit"
Edit: Yesterday I also saw Crank went for Templar opening in PvT on one of the new maps and it was really close game even though Terran didn't even went for mines. He added them only after ~12m where Crank has already placed his 3rd and started colo production to disable WM.
On July 17 2014 10:12 Salient wrote: It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Protoss has way too many openings in PvT while terran has too few, cutting down the number of options from toss is actually a step in the RIGHT direction for balance in PvT. The problem is not that toss late game is so broken, its that protoss early game is so ridiculously varied and a good protoss can easily deny the reaper scout making the matchup a coinflip for terran to build order lose. Having a 33% chance to instantly lose the game if you choose incorrectly and a 2/3 chance to just have a normal game if you guess correctly is not fair. These buffs/nerfs will actually allow terran to more safely reach the mid game and late game much more often resulting in a more balanced matchup. We do need more variance, but we need more late game variance, not early game.
Early game builds should be standardized in terms of aggression, otherwise you will see pro players lose based on build orders (which happens way too much in this game). While being too greedy should be punished, playing standard should not be (i.e. ultra fast oracles, blink all in). Most of these things have been fixed in WOL, if you remember Stim timing in TvP or Double Chrono'd zealot in PvZ.. but a few new ones have arisen in HOTS that definitely need to be taken care of.
Once the early game becomes a game about who is BETTER, not whos build order counters whos. Then you can move on to making the game more varied. You can make builds that segway into Stargates by possibly lowering the cost of protoss air upgrades, Remember Phoenix/Colossus? I would like to see this build return.
Thors, BC's, Carriers, Broodlords, Tanks, Infestors (Neural sucks!) all need very minor tweaks to make them more applicable in mainstream games, but not in a way that they become the norm... just in a way that they are viable. Thors could be given +1 ground range, while tanks given a buff in damage output vs. light. Broodlords might need a slight boost in speed by .15. Extremely minor changes make the world of difference with units.
As much se I understand you, you do not probably realize how boring is it to watch colossus play EVERY time again and again and again ><
Protoss can still open up stargate, blink, dt, or simply gateways, and all are completely viable. Terran can open..........bio. How is that any more exciting?
On July 17 2014 10:12 Salient wrote: It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Protoss has way too many openings in PvT while terran has too few, cutting down the number of options from toss is actually a step in the RIGHT direction for balance in PvT. The problem is not that toss late game is so broken, its that protoss early game is so ridiculously varied and a good protoss can easily deny the reaper scout making the matchup a coinflip for terran to build order lose. Having a 33% chance to instantly lose the game if you choose incorrectly and a 2/3 chance to just have a normal game if you guess correctly is not fair. These buffs/nerfs will actually allow terran to more safely reach the mid game and late game much more often resulting in a more balanced matchup. We do need more variance, but we need more late game variance, not early game.
Early game builds should be standardized in terms of aggression, otherwise you will see pro players lose based on build orders (which happens way too much in this game). While being too greedy should be punished, playing standard should not be (i.e. ultra fast oracles, blink all in). Most of these things have been fixed in WOL, if you remember Stim timing in TvP or Double Chrono'd zealot in PvZ.. but a few new ones have arisen in HOTS that definitely need to be taken care of.
Once the early game becomes a game about who is BETTER, not whos build order counters whos. Then you can move on to making the game more varied. You can make builds that segway into Stargates by possibly lowering the cost of protoss air upgrades, Remember Phoenix/Colossus? I would like to see this build return.
Thors, BC's, Carriers, Broodlords, Tanks, Infestors (Neural sucks!) all need very minor tweaks to make them more applicable in mainstream games, but not in a way that they become the norm... just in a way that they are viable. Thors could be given +1 ground range, while tanks given a buff in damage output vs. light. Broodlords might need a slight boost in speed by .15. Extremely minor changes make the world of difference with units.
As much se I understand you, you do not probably realize how boring is it to watch colossus play EVERY time again and again and again ><
Protoss can still open up stargate, blink, dt, or simply gateways, and all are completely viable. Terran can open..........bio. How is that any more exciting?
reaper expand every single time :D or else gl with flipping a coin... dat excitement playing/watching terran.
Having just seen IEM Shenzhen Group B, Innovation vs. Snute, Game 1 I wonder, if the Widowmine buff is actually a buff or rather a nerf for Terran. The splash damage buff will also affect the friendly fire damage greatly. I'd rather see a buff on a reliable Terran unit instead of this dice-rolling one.
The widow mine buff seems pretty stupid to me, the place the Widow mine had taken before it was nerfed was way too much important and some may say too strong, I would totally agreed that it was over nerfed but the mine in its original states was also problematic. Nevertheless, the return of the mines at its original state+tank buff+the new Hellbat buff which is a threat you have to be prepared for in early game (meaning that you have a weaker midgame) and more important, the new maps this season has brought... That seems to be a LOT for TvZ, while TvP is less affected and I would say is a match up at least as much problematic at highest level.
I'd really have liked to see them work on the Ghost so it would be a more interesting late game option in TvZ and TvP, first byconsidering that Ghost should be a gaz sink unit so reduce it to 100 mineral instead of 150, and maybe buffing Nuke? I don't know, but nukes are exciting as a spectator, they force position play which is good strategic wise, and is a good (on paper) area of effects spell which terran needs in late game when going bio.
An other thing to improve thebalance for TvZ would be to nerfing creep, I would like to see some tests about it like making the creep dissapear faster when the creep tumor are killed so you can't recreep so easilly when the army left the area. It seems to me more neat and subtle as a change while still being effective than just flat out buffing the mines to a state where we know it was problematic.
On July 17 2014 10:12 Salient wrote: It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Protoss has way too many openings in PvT while terran has too few, cutting down the number of options from toss is actually a step in the RIGHT direction for balance in PvT. The problem is not that toss late game is so broken, its that protoss early game is so ridiculously varied and a good protoss can easily deny the reaper scout making the matchup a coinflip for terran to build order lose. Having a 33% chance to instantly lose the game if you choose incorrectly and a 2/3 chance to just have a normal game if you guess correctly is not fair. These buffs/nerfs will actually allow terran to more safely reach the mid game and late game much more often resulting in a more balanced matchup. We do need more variance, but we need more late game variance, not early game.
Early game builds should be standardized in terms of aggression, otherwise you will see pro players lose based on build orders (which happens way too much in this game). While being too greedy should be punished, playing standard should not be (i.e. ultra fast oracles, blink all in). Most of these things have been fixed in WOL, if you remember Stim timing in TvP or Double Chrono'd zealot in PvZ.. but a few new ones have arisen in HOTS that definitely need to be taken care of.
Once the early game becomes a game about who is BETTER, not whos build order counters whos. Then you can move on to making the game more varied. You can make builds that segway into Stargates by possibly lowering the cost of protoss air upgrades, Remember Phoenix/Colossus? I would like to see this build return.
Thors, BC's, Carriers, Broodlords, Tanks, Infestors (Neural sucks!) all need very minor tweaks to make them more applicable in mainstream games, but not in a way that they become the norm... just in a way that they are viable. Thors could be given +1 ground range, while tanks given a buff in damage output vs. light. Broodlords might need a slight boost in speed by .15. Extremely minor changes make the world of difference with units.
As much se I understand you, you do not probably realize how boring is it to watch colossus play EVERY time again and again and again ><
Protoss can still open up stargate, blink, dt, or simply gateways, and all are completely viable. Terran can open..........bio. How is that any more exciting?
Bio units have more play than simple def, camp, eco, tech and then 1a. The boring part is that terran are forced to go same opening everygame, cant mix in ravens or other late game units such as tanks. Always forced to go viking/ghost vs colo/templar and the big armee vs armee fight is quite boring.
Terran went vult/tank in broodwar everygame and it was fun as hell cuz the opening varied, how many x vults you went and y tanks varied. When you did your expansions. You wanted to add in dropships or not. Wanted to go agressive mode or not. It was really fun. Two units but still so much variation.
What iam saying is, is how you can use the units that is the funpart.
What people are asking for is other buff to terran which helps against colo openings whereas WM buffs don't address it at all and even further force P's to play either really passively/greedy with colo or go for one of build form "Great Protoss Book of Bullshit"
To me it seems that Blizzard simply thinks That if they make Widow Mines extremely "OP" vs protoss, then they will be used vs lategame protoss Collosus compositions as well.
I think we have to wait a bit to see how that plays out, but I would definitely have liked if Templar openings were buffed simultaenously. Like what if 1 Psy storm could kill 1 Mine?
On July 17 2014 10:12 Salient wrote: It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Protoss has way too many openings in PvT while terran has too few, cutting down the number of options from toss is actually a step in the RIGHT direction for balance in PvT. The problem is not that toss late game is so broken, its that protoss early game is so ridiculously varied and a good protoss can easily deny the reaper scout making the matchup a coinflip for terran to build order lose. Having a 33% chance to instantly lose the game if you choose incorrectly and a 2/3 chance to just have a normal game if you guess correctly is not fair. These buffs/nerfs will actually allow terran to more safely reach the mid game and late game much more often resulting in a more balanced matchup. We do need more variance, but we need more late game variance, not early game.
Early game builds should be standardized in terms of aggression, otherwise you will see pro players lose based on build orders (which happens way too much in this game). While being too greedy should be punished, playing standard should not be (i.e. ultra fast oracles, blink all in). Most of these things have been fixed in WOL, if you remember Stim timing in TvP or Double Chrono'd zealot in PvZ.. but a few new ones have arisen in HOTS that definitely need to be taken care of.
Once the early game becomes a game about who is BETTER, not whos build order counters whos. Then you can move on to making the game more varied. You can make builds that segway into Stargates by possibly lowering the cost of protoss air upgrades, Remember Phoenix/Colossus? I would like to see this build return.
Thors, BC's, Carriers, Broodlords, Tanks, Infestors (Neural sucks!) all need very minor tweaks to make them more applicable in mainstream games, but not in a way that they become the norm... just in a way that they are viable. Thors could be given +1 ground range, while tanks given a buff in damage output vs. light. Broodlords might need a slight boost in speed by .15. Extremely minor changes make the world of difference with units.
As much se I understand you, you do not probably realize how boring is it to watch colossus play EVERY time again and again and again ><
Protoss can still open up stargate, blink, dt, or simply gateways, and all are completely viable. Terran can open..........bio. How is that any more exciting?
Bio is a composition. It's not an opening. There are many openings that you can use to get to that composition:
Reaper Expand -> 3 Rax Bio or Mine Drops or Hellion Drops.
111 -> Mine Drops or Hellion Drops.
Proxy 111 -> Mine Drops or Hellion Drops.
Proxy Factory -> 2 Rax Factory All-In (the "Lillekanin Build")
1 Rax FE -> 3 Rax Bio or Mine Drops or Hellion Drops.
14CC -> 3 Rax Bio or Mine Drops or Hellion Drops.
Protoss does have a lot of openings, but they more or less all head into a Colossus/Stalker mid-game. Much like how all the Terran openings head into a MMM mid-game. Saying that "Protoss can open Dark Templar" or "Protoss can open Stargate" is irrelevant since it's not like Protoss are going pure Dark Templar or pure Skytoss after opening that way. It's also not that hard to prepare for either of those things, regardless of what Terran players seem to think. It's not that hard to count Pylons and gas geysers >_>;
I can only dream of a day where I'm able to go Carriers vs. Terran in a non-cheesy way
Bio is a comp, not an opening. Problem is that nothing non-bio works, so while the BO differs, the opening is still bio., protoss cheese is easy to scout so terran pro's are stupid?
What people are asking for is other buff to terran which helps against colo openings whereas WM buffs don't address it at all and even further force P's to play either really passively/greedy with colo or go for one of build form "Great Protoss Book of Bullshit"
To me it seems that Blizzard simply thinks That if they make Widow Mines extremely "OP" vs protoss, then they will be used vs lategame protoss Collosus compositions as well.
I think we have to wait a bit to see how that plays out, but I would definitely have liked if Templar openings were buffed simultaenously. Like what if 1 Psy storm could kill 1 Mine?
On July 17 2014 10:12 Salient wrote: It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Protoss has way too many openings in PvT while terran has too few, cutting down the number of options from toss is actually a step in the RIGHT direction for balance in PvT. The problem is not that toss late game is so broken, its that protoss early game is so ridiculously varied and a good protoss can easily deny the reaper scout making the matchup a coinflip for terran to build order lose. Having a 33% chance to instantly lose the game if you choose incorrectly and a 2/3 chance to just have a normal game if you guess correctly is not fair. These buffs/nerfs will actually allow terran to more safely reach the mid game and late game much more often resulting in a more balanced matchup. We do need more variance, but we need more late game variance, not early game.
Early game builds should be standardized in terms of aggression, otherwise you will see pro players lose based on build orders (which happens way too much in this game). While being too greedy should be punished, playing standard should not be (i.e. ultra fast oracles, blink all in). Most of these things have been fixed in WOL, if you remember Stim timing in TvP or Double Chrono'd zealot in PvZ.. but a few new ones have arisen in HOTS that definitely need to be taken care of.
Once the early game becomes a game about who is BETTER, not whos build order counters whos. Then you can move on to making the game more varied. You can make builds that segway into Stargates by possibly lowering the cost of protoss air upgrades, Remember Phoenix/Colossus? I would like to see this build return.
Thors, BC's, Carriers, Broodlords, Tanks, Infestors (Neural sucks!) all need very minor tweaks to make them more applicable in mainstream games, but not in a way that they become the norm... just in a way that they are viable. Thors could be given +1 ground range, while tanks given a buff in damage output vs. light. Broodlords might need a slight boost in speed by .15. Extremely minor changes make the world of difference with units.
As much se I understand you, you do not probably realize how boring is it to watch colossus play EVERY time again and again and again ><
Protoss can still open up stargate, blink, dt, or simply gateways, and all are completely viable. Terran can open..........bio. How is that any more exciting?
Bio is a composition. It's not an opening. There are many openings that you can use to get to that composition:
Reaper Expand -> 3 Rax Bio or Mine Drops or Hellion Drops.
111 -> Mine Drops or Hellion Drops.
Proxy 111 -> Mine Drops or Hellion Drops.
Proxy Factory -> 2 Rax Factory All-In (the "Lillekanin Build")
1 Rax FE -> 3 Rax Bio or Mine Drops or Hellion Drops.
14CC -> 3 Rax Bio or Mine Drops or Hellion Drops.
Protoss does have a lot of openings, but they more or less all head into a Colossus/Stalker mid-game. Much like how all the Terran openings head into a MMM mid-game. Saying that "Protoss can open Dark Templar" or "Protoss can open Stargate" is irrelevant since it's not like Protoss are going pure Dark Templar or pure Skytoss after opening that way. It's also not that hard to prepare for either of those things, regardless of what Terran players seem to think. It's not that hard to count Pylons and gas geysers >_>;
I can only dream of a day where I'm able to go Carriers vs. Terran in a non-cheesy way. Or at all
oh the protoss has two gas? no I know that he only has access to 80% of the possible protoss builds. that helps a lot.
What people are asking for is other buff to terran which helps against colo openings whereas WM buffs don't address it at all and even further force P's to play either really passively/greedy with colo or go for one of build form "Great Protoss Book of Bullshit"
To me it seems that Blizzard simply thinks That if they make Widow Mines extremely "OP" vs protoss, then they will be used vs lategame protoss Collosus compositions as well.
I think we have to wait a bit to see how that plays out, but I would definitely have liked if Templar openings were buffed simultaenously. Like what if 1 Psy storm could kill 1 Mine?
Upgraded banes could 2shot...
Hmm yeh, perhaps. I do feel that the Widow Mine stats could use a larger overhaul in LOTV. Something like this:
- Widow Mine launch time reduced from 1.5 to 1 seconds - Projectile speed reduced to compensate - HP reduced to 80
The effect of this should be to make the Widow Mine capable of going off faster vs many units, so it doesn't actually need to be able to tank as well (so it can have less HP). The countermicro is, however, maintained/increased due to the slower projectile speed, which means you send zerglings in to drag the Widow Mines attack into the terran player (to force Friendly Fire).
Further, it's now slightly more practical for the enemy to set 2 Zerglings on the the Widow Mine to force of the activation (since it only requires 1 second instead of 1.5 now).
1 Rax FE -> 3 Rax Bio or Mine Drops or Hellion Drops Proxy Factory -> 2 Rax Factory All-In (the "Lillekanin Build")
I don't think you shuld list openings that terrna player uses in less than 0.01% of pro games. Also I wouldn't differentiate between proxy and nonproxy openings.
It's also not that hard to prepare for either of those things, regardless of what Terran players seem to think. It's not that hard to count Pylons and gas geysers >
How is you terran offrace doing? Have you started figuring out that noone actually goes 1gate expand into 3gate on 1 geyser? And that everything protoss does basically comes of 2 geysers?
Having to build blind turrets and bunkers slows down the terran mid-game A LOT. Then we add in the mothership core and the terran mid-game is actually fairly weak. Currently the early and mid-game allows the protoss to get into the late game pretty comfortably.
Even if we know a protoss is proxying, terran still have to guess which proxy the protoss is doing. Proxy stargate, twilight, or robo all require very different responses. You can't just set up a "catch all" defense like the *cough* mothership core *cough*. And so terran are forced to over build all types of defense: turrets in mineral lines in case of oracles, bunker in nat and main in case of blink stalkers, turret in front of nat in case of dts, lots of bunkers in front in case of immortals.
I really don't understand the complaint that protoss can't open straight into templars. They can at least still get templars and be very successful with them later if they want. Terran can't get mech or air (ravens/bcs) at any point, early, mid, or late game. That, in my opinion, is more of a concern than whether or not protoss can tech straight to storm with no other units.
If you are going up into your base then you won't be leaving it until ~10 mins when you have medivacs as you will get severely contained. If that's the case you might as well just leave because you have no chance to catch up to the protoss who will simply expand instead of committing to the all in.
On July 17 2014 18:27 BurningRanger wrote: Having just seen IEM Shenzhen Group B, Innovation vs. Snute, Game 1 I wonder, if the Widowmine buff is actually a buff or rather a nerf for Terran. The splash damage buff will also affect the friendly fire damage greatly. I'd rather see a buff on a reliable Terran unit instead of this dice-rolling one.
I watched Polt playing in Red Bull Battlegrounds. He built large numbers of widow mines and spread them wide. Then when pressing with his bio against the Zerg he would fall back, off-creep, to the mine field to regroup knowing that the Zerg could not easily follow. That seems a pretty good tactic.
On July 17 2014 10:12 Salient wrote: It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Protoss has way too many openings in PvT while terran has too few, cutting down the number of options from toss is actually a step in the RIGHT direction for balance in PvT. The problem is not that toss late game is so broken, its that protoss early game is so ridiculously varied and a good protoss can easily deny the reaper scout making the matchup a coinflip for terran to build order lose. Having a 33% chance to instantly lose the game if you choose incorrectly and a 2/3 chance to just have a normal game if you guess correctly is not fair. These buffs/nerfs will actually allow terran to more safely reach the mid game and late game much more often resulting in a more balanced matchup. We do need more variance, but we need more late game variance, not early game.
Early game builds should be standardized in terms of aggression, otherwise you will see pro players lose based on build orders (which happens way too much in this game). While being too greedy should be punished, playing standard should not be (i.e. ultra fast oracles, blink all in). Most of these things have been fixed in WOL, if you remember Stim timing in TvP or Double Chrono'd zealot in PvZ.. but a few new ones have arisen in HOTS that definitely need to be taken care of.
Once the early game becomes a game about who is BETTER, not whos build order counters whos. Then you can move on to making the game more varied. You can make builds that segway into Stargates by possibly lowering the cost of protoss air upgrades, Remember Phoenix/Colossus? I would like to see this build return.
Thors, BC's, Carriers, Broodlords, Tanks, Infestors (Neural sucks!) all need very minor tweaks to make them more applicable in mainstream games, but not in a way that they become the norm... just in a way that they are viable. Thors could be given +1 ground range, while tanks given a buff in damage output vs. light. Broodlords might need a slight boost in speed by .15. Extremely minor changes make the world of difference with units.
Eh, tbh it used to be pretty obvious to determine what opening Protoss was going for (back in WoL) namely through unit counting, maybe a scan, some scouting, etc. It had to do with the timing window when Terran needed to figure out what the Protoss was going for. Back in WoL, Protoss always had to make a bunch of sentries, so all of their early gas was going into units and base tech (warp gate, etc.). Now, Protoss can tech on nothing more than a couple of stalkers and a MSC, which means all of their tech timings hit much earlier. Because they hit a lot earlier, Terran doesn't have the time to do a standard build and adjust to what they scout. They need to have the perfect response immediately, which leads to those situations where guessing wrong gets you killed.
Variation isn't the problem, it's greed facilitated by abilities like Photon Overcharge. What I didn't like about the crazy WM buffs was how templar openings were eliminated (yes, I'm a Terran and on board with the folks complaining about loss of options). The pacing needs to be fixed, and that can only happen with early game changes.
Sure, late game Terran probably needs a look too, but aside from 200/200 situations, all of the key problems with the match up are more subtle and established in early game.
On July 18 2014 02:40 KingofGods wrote: I really don't understand the complaint that protoss can't open straight into templars. They can at least still get templars and be very successful with them later if they want. Terran can't get mech or air (ravens/bcs) at any point, early, mid, or late game. That, in my opinion, is more of a concern than whether or not protoss can tech straight to storm with no other units.
Clearly this!
And I agree. A big problem is Protoss being to save in the early game. After having a break from starcraft 2 I returned to play some again and after my first game playing against protoss I felt really angry about photon overcharge because it just shuts down most or like almost all early game options terran could develop against protoss.
The only things you can do are mines (which hide from getting shot, if the toss does not get up early detection) or some attacks out of the range of the PO.
Obviously its really stupid and forces the terran to go lategame. Currently I face a lot of early collossus openings which need time to react to, which automatically pushes you in the lategame.
What people are asking for is other buff to terran which helps against colo openings whereas WM buffs don't address it at all and even further force P's to play either really passively/greedy with colo or go for one of build form "Great Protoss Book of Bullshit"
To me it seems that Blizzard simply thinks That if they make Widow Mines extremely "OP" vs protoss, then they will be used vs lategame protoss Collosus compositions as well.
I think we have to wait a bit to see how that plays out, but I would definitely have liked if Templar openings were buffed simultaenously. Like what if 1 Psy storm could kill 1 Mine?
Upgraded banes could 2shot...
Blizzard power: damage upgrades do not apply vs. the widow mine!
On July 18 2014 09:56 Loccstana wrote: We, as the players of Starcraft, demand that Blizzard bring back the warhound in its original form.
Except that unit was an imbalanced, A-move abomination so no, "we" don't want it back.
so in otherwords its a protoss unit? Lol
But seriously, at this point im just waiting for LotV. And honestly, if swarm hosts or at the very least mothership core are not removed and the game redesigned around actual gameplay then ill even wait for it to go on sale. I have zero interest in playing anything that feels like HotS.
Will just play WoL and league in the meantime to scratch my competative itch...
What's in the battle.net description is actually a good summary ; for the time being, no more decreasing damage zones, the classical 125 + 35 damage on its primary target and 40+40 in 1.75 radius. I tend to think the 40+40 splash is a tad too much and will have to be adjusted, but let's wait and see for the changes to be tested by skillful hands.
ZvT will be stupid to play and watch again while the lategame weaknesses of terran wont be at all addressed with this (if zergs anyhow survive the 20-25 minute survival game).
I wonder why blizzard does not realize that balancing TvZ on a single stale style of play that allows/forces one race to constantly attack and the other race to only defend for half an hour is nothing but bad. Even hellbats wont have a role in this anymore as they require some commitment from the terran (which includes risks) while going straight into 4m macro rally has it all and can't be countered in early-mid.
Instead of developing the game further into a direction of different openings for both races that kind of counter each other and allow players to dynamically adapt to each other and create interesting variable games, they choose the solution that really makes one thing obvious: They don't at all know how to do it better.
But there are alot of possible approaches. The fact that T is weak in the lategame against both P and Z and is more or less stuck on bio in both mups makes it quite easy to do this better: The Raven missile could be changed so that it always hits in combination with a fix of PDD. The mine should never be the core unit of terran gameplay but the tank! Therefore tank mechanics and counter mechanics could be tweaked as mentioned hundred times in these threads (e.g. immortal shield mechanics, +dmg vs light/massive for tanks, etc.). Thors could be changed to complement this.
I can't imagine a single zerg out there that enjoys this always repeating kind of ZvT meta which does not allow any creativity but is in fact a devensive do or die situation for about 20-25 minutes in every game without anything to fall back on like MSC, mines, wall-ins with bunkers, with banelings taking that long to replenish, and then ends up in the exact same bemoaned situation that we have now. T and Z have reversed roles in TvZ when looking at the race mechanics and available units and this should be some long term goal to fix for blizzard.
Time to put SC2 aside until expansion2 release I guess. These changes wont improve SC2 a bit but only the winrates of terran.
@LSN I'm not so sure we'll be back to the parade pushes days. I'm actually quite convinced the test phase will end up in a mine doing 40+40 splash in 1.5 radius, so that the mine will be better on the whole but not as good as before in TvZ.
This sounds like a reasonable expectation. But why cant they try to improve or change the roles of units that desperately need it such as ravens, tanks, thors? The mine got its place in game and is about right for its cost as it is now but alot of other units don't.
agree with the remark on underused units, there is so much potential in units that see almost no use in certain matchups nowadays
blizzards last try to promote an underused unit was the hydra, they specifically wanted to make it more usable in zvt, yet the buff was so tiny and just underwhelming from a design point of view so that they didnt reach their aim, at all
Splash radius is now 1.75. There are no longer 50% or 25% damage zones.
Splash damage is now 40 (+40 Shields) for the full 1.75 splash radius.
Thor
Changed to prioritize their AA weapon over the AG weapon
Protoss
Mothership Core
Time Warp duration decreased from 30 to 10 seconds
I've gotten lost in what's happened to the Widow Mine.
Can someone summarise..?
At the start of HotS it was 125 damage to the main target and 40 damage splash in 1.75 radius. Then they added +35 shields damage to the main target (could have been still in beta, I'm not sure when exactly that was) The next thing was the big nerf in patch 2.0.12 to 40 splash damage in 1.25 radius, 20 in 1.5 and 10 in 1.75.
After that there was the buff with the +shields damage, making it 40 (+40vsshields) in 1.25, 20 (+20) in 1.5 and 10 (+10) in 1.75
The most recent things have been only proposed balance changes for the test map. The first one from July 11th was a buff to the radius, making it: 40 (+40) in 1.5, 20 (+20) in 2 and 10 (+10) in 2.5
With the most recent edition they changed the radius back to 1.75 and made it 40 (+40 vs shields) in the full 1.75 radius.
So they are still playing around with it. I think that means we will definitely get a widow mine buff, the question is just how big will this buff be. If they make the changes like this I think we will see widow mines even against colossus builds because getting in even 2-3 hits into the charging zealots will be worth it. Also chargelot-templar openings will be dead. For TvZ this means we get back to the old widow mines how they were at HotS release.
On July 18 2014 18:52 Yello wrote: So they are still playing around with it. I think that means we will definitely get a widow mine buff, the question is just how big will this buff be. If they make the changes like this I think we will see widow mines even against colossus builds because getting in even 2-3 hits into the charging zealots will be worth it. Also chargelot-templar openings will be dead. For TvZ this means we get back to the old widow mines how they were at HotS release.
Quite this, and I think this would be a bit too much. I definitely expect a buff for the mine both in TvZ and TvP, but a little weaker one.
On July 18 2014 18:30 [PkF] Wire wrote: @LSN I'm not so sure we'll be back to the parade pushes days. I'm actually quite convinced the test phase will end up in a mine doing 40+40 splash in 1.5 radius, so that the mine will be better on the whole but not as good as before in TvZ.
If you reduce the radius from 1,75 to 1,5, the WM will be utter shit in both TvP and TvZ. WM already look very few probes per hit, imagine with a shorter radius.
On July 18 2014 18:24 LSN wrote: ZvT will be stupid to play and watch again while the lategame weaknesses of terran wont be at all addressed with this (if zergs anyhow survive the 20-25 minute survival game).
I wonder why blizzard does not realize that balancing TvZ on a single stale style of play that allows/forces one race to constantly attack and the other race to only defend for half an hour is nothing but bad. Even hellbats wont have a role in this anymore as they require some commitment from the terran (which includes risks) while going straight into 4m macro rally has it all and can't be countered in early-mid.
Instead of developing the game further into a direction of different openings for both races that kind of counter each other and allow players to dynamically adapt to each other and create interesting variable games, they choose the solution that really makes one thing obvious: They don't at all know how to do it better.
But there are alot of possible approaches. The fact that T is weak in the lategame against both P and Z and is more or less stuck on bio in both mups makes it quite easy to do this better: The Raven missile could be changed so that it always hits in combination with a fix of PDD. The mine should never be the core unit of terran gameplay but the tank! Therefore tank mechanics and counter mechanics could be tweaked as mentioned hundred times in these threads (e.g. immortal shield mechanics, +dmg vs light/massive for tanks, etc.). Thors could be changed to complement this.
I can't imagine a single zerg out there that enjoys this always repeating kind of ZvT meta which does not allow any creativity but is in fact a devensive do or die situation for about 20-25 minutes in every game without anything to fall back on like MSC, mines, wall-ins with bunkers, with banelings taking that long to replenish, and then ends up in the exact same bemoaned situation that we have now. T and Z have reversed roles in TvZ when looking at the race mechanics and available units and this should be some long term goal to fix for blizzard.
Time to put SC2 aside until expansion2 release I guess. These changes wont improve SC2 a bit but only the winrates of terran.
I've said it a bunch of times, the real problem is the marine. Marines are so stupidly good and cost-effective that everything else about Terran has to be crippled to avoid breaking the game. Marines ensure that Terran late game will always suck. It's impossible to make it not suck without overpowering Terran in the early/mid game. The short Terran tech tree means that good late game units become overpowered cheese units when combined with the marine in the early/midgame.
Lategame Terran often has like 4000+ gas banked. They can't spend it because they don't have a gas dump, and they can't have a gas dump because if they did the short tech tree would let them cheese the fuck out of their opponents. Why do you think the banshee takes 60 seconds to build? That's a horrible cost:build time ratio, the void ray costs a lot more and also builds in 60 seconds, AND Protoss has chrono boost. It takes 60 seconds because if it built in, say, 30 seconds and thus was massable early, Terran could easily cheese Zerg out of the game with 1 base marine/banshee. How are you going to beat that? Are you going to expand, and then make banelings AND hydralisks? It's impossible, and that's why the banshee has to take eons to build, so Zerg can fight 1 base banshee production with just queens and focus all the rest of their units on countering the marines.
Now, look at the siege tank. Same problem. It's another potential gas dump, and is naturally strong against what marines are weak against, and vice versa. Say you give it a substantial buff. Now it's that much better at protecting marines from banelings, and Zerg is just going to get routed by early/midgame marine/tank timings.
Why did the warhound get taken out? Same reason. 1-base warhound/marine cheese beats everything, because the warhound protects the marine from its early/midgame counters far too well. They made a great barrier to absorb baneling hits and 7 range prevented Protoss from kiting with stalkers.
This is why the widow mine got nerfed. Yeah, there's a whole list of drawbacks. It's mineral heavy, fires randomly, deals friendly fire and costs a lot of supply. Wasn't enough. It effectively protected marines from their early/midgame counter (banelings) and without that counter, the marines just hose everything else the fuck down. This forced Zerg to stay at midgame/Lair tech just to survive, and eventually 3/3 would kick in and the parade push would crush them. Then the mine got nerfed. All of a sudden, it's no longer effective marine protection and now Terran has jack and shit. All their other stuff has been neutered to balance the marine. Terran is SOL. Now it's getting unnerfed, and we're going back to square one. It's honestly the best Blizzard can do, because the host of drawbacks this unit has means it's really a terrible counter to AoE damage. But again, because the marine is just so amazingly and stupidly good, a terrible counter is all you need. Seriously, 50 minerals for the same DPS as a pre-patch 100/50 hydralisk!
TL;DR: You can't buff Terran lategame because the short Terran tech tree means any "lategame" buff will just be abused as an early game cheese featuring marines + the buffed unit + pulled SCVs.
On July 18 2014 18:30 [PkF] Wire wrote: @LSN I'm not so sure we'll be back to the parade pushes days. I'm actually quite convinced the test phase will end up in a mine doing 40+40 splash in 1.5 radius, so that the mine will be better on the whole but not as good as before in TvZ.
If you reduce the radius from 1,75 to 1,5, the WM will be utter shit in both TvP and TvZ. WM already look very few probes per hit, imagine with a shorter radius.
Sure, because 40 damage over the entire splash area is negligible. Did you want one 75/25 unit to be able to clean up an entire mineral line? You'll already be able to potentially clean up a lot of it with 2. No to mention the dozens of lings/banes that will once again be vaporized by random shots. Back to one year ago, yay, tvz was *so* fun to watch, I can't wait...
Not to say that nothing should be done for the current situation, but going back to TvZ after the release of HotS? Are they counting on zerg players whining less than terrans over the next months?
Funny how 'fixing' TvP implies shitting all over zergs, who won just as few tournaments as terrans...
On July 18 2014 17:37 [PkF] Wire wrote: 40 (+40) needs to be adjusted in terms of shields damage.
The original widow mine was a powerful unit. No one would have suggested giving it +40 bonus damage against shields. That buff only made sense in some way after the mine had been nerfed to oblivion. The bonus damage versus shields is gratuitous overkill once the widow mine is restored to its original statistics. The balance test map has WMs as 75 mineral units that do more damage to Protoss units than Psy Storm. The damage is instant (unlike Psy Storm), and WMs can be reactored at 6:00 (compared to massively expensive and much later Tier 3 Psy Storm). It's pretty crazy.
On July 18 2014 21:36 Xequecal wrote: I've said it a bunch of times, the real problem is the marine. [...]
This post makes way more sense than I thought it would having read the first sentence...
Seems to me the first sentence is on point. How many games have we seen where a terran stays alive for a *long* time, and even wins, after getting beaten down to one base, after losing most of his scvs, but still being able to pump out 15/16 marines at a time with mules and being able to stand up to an opponent on 4/5 bases (at least when he's zerg)?
The issue is not that mech is crap so bio is the only choice. It's rather that bio is *so* good because of marines that buffing anything else would be far too strong when adding marines to the mix. By all means, buff everything terran has to make it more viable. But nerf marines in exchange so that there's an actual choice other than building the same 50 mineral unit all game long as the main army force.
Then again, the one thing blizzard said at the first blizzcon after WoL that's still true now, is that they didn't dare nerf the marine in fear of getting assaulted by angry terrans everywhere.
I'd love to see terrans getting nerfs for the marine, a cooldown for mules and buffs *everywhere* else to compensate (except mines. favor units that require skill instead of luck, please :/).
On July 18 2014 21:36 Xequecal wrote: I've said it a bunch of times, the real problem is the marine. [...]
This post makes way more sense than I thought it would having read the first sentence...
Seems to me the first sentence is on point. How many games have we seen where a terran stays alive for a *long* time, and even wins, after getting beaten down to one base, after losing most of his scvs, but still being able to pump out 15/16 marines at a time with mules and being able to stand up to an opponent on 4/5 bases (at least when he's zerg)?
The issue is not that mech is crap so bio is the only choice. It's rather that bio is *so* good because of marines that buffing anything else would be far too strong when adding marines to the mix. By all means, buff everything terran has to make it more viable. But nerf marines in exchange so that there's an actual choice other than building the same 50 mineral unit all game long as the main army force.
Then again, the one thing blizzard said at the first blizzcon after WoL that's still true now, is that they didn't dare nerf the marine in fear of getting assaulted by angry terrans everywhere.
I'd love to see terrans getting nerfs for the marine, a cooldown for mules and buffs *everywhere* else to compensate (except mines. favor units that require skill instead of luck, please :/).
yes its spot on and a lot of people said this over the years but i dont think blizz will change the marine and buff other T units. they wont even consider this in LotV sadly. maybe something like removing combat shield would already be enough of a nerf, maybe with a lesser healing rate of medivacs (make medivacs heal % of max hp instead of flat hp so that marauders arent nerfed). after that just buff stuff like tanks (flat out dmg buffs or lategame upgrade etc.) and some other T lategame units.
On July 18 2014 21:08 Faust852 wrote: If you reduce the radius from 1,75 to 1,5, the WM will be utter shit in both TvP and TvZ. WM already look very few probes per hit, imagine with a shorter radius.
You can't be serious. It certainly won't be overpowered, but it certainly won't be "utter shit". I refer to a subsequent post :
On July 18 2014 21:48 Salient wrote: The original widow mine was a powerful unit. No one would have suggested giving it +40 bonus damage against shields. That buff only made sense in some way after the mine had been nerfed to oblivion. The bonus damage versus shields is gratuitous overkill once the widow mine is restored to its original statistics. The balance test map has WMs as 75 mineral units that do more damage to Protoss units than Psy Storm. The damage is instant (unlike Psy Storm), and WMs can be reactored at 6:00 (compared to massively expensive and much later Tier 3 Psy Storm). It's pretty crazy.
Yes, 80 instant damage, even in short range and dodgeable, seems totally barmy to me. I'm all for a 1.75 radius for the mine, though I admit I'd be afraid of a too violent balance shift in TvZ, but not with a full +40 shields.
On July 18 2014 21:08 Faust852 wrote: If you reduce the radius from 1,75 to 1,5, the WM will be utter shit in both TvP and TvZ. WM already look very few probes per hit, imagine with a shorter radius.
You can't be serious. It certainly won't be overpowered, but it certainly won't be "utter shit". I refer to a subsequent post :
On July 18 2014 21:48 Salient wrote: The original widow mine was a powerful unit. No one would have suggested giving it +40 bonus damage against shields. That buff only made sense in some way after the mine had been nerfed to oblivion. The bonus damage versus shields is gratuitous overkill once the widow mine is restored to its original statistics. The balance test map has WMs as 75 mineral units that do more damage to Protoss units than Psy Storm. The damage is instant (unlike Psy Storm), and WMs can be reactored at 6:00 (compared to massively expensive and much later Tier 3 Psy Storm). It's pretty crazy.
Yes, 80 instant damage, even in short range and dodgeable, seems totally barmy to me. I'm all for a 1.75 radius for the mine, though I admit I'd be afraid of a too violent balance shift in TvZ, but not with a full +40 shields.
Once again, it is not instant damage. You have to burrow it, and then there is 2s of charging. It's more than a storm that is instant casted and last 4s. And you can cast 2 storms with a HT, and with 2 HT, you have 4 storms, and one archon. And a WM become useless for 40s after it hits.
I think we should stop comparing mine to storms because they are available at very different times of a game and have very dissimilar characteristics -not to mention you're describing such an optimal utilization of 2 HTs (who, I may mention, begin with 50 energy so no storm in store) it's preposterous, like the T can't dodge the storms at all, can't snipe or EMP, etc. Test will tell, but I remember 1.75 mines being quite good, and anyone who would have suggested to give them +40 vs shields would have been labelled as insane. So yeah, I'm expecting another iteration of this balance patch, with a more rational buff to the mine.
The problem with widow mine is that it ignores upgrades. And you can't micro out from a shot, every micro is done pre engagement, sniping mines with muta and keep poking until you think you have enough. A lot of engagement micro from terran is pre split and poking, burrow and reburrow mines.
That's not increasing zerg micro, because you technically cannot split out from a mine shot in an engagement.
They need to somehow fix this to be a more dynamic micro during engagement because 4m is basically splash everything to death and every engagement lasts less than 5 seconds maximum.
There are just lots of very short everything dies engagements
Widow mines will be good versus Zerg but still be quite weak versus Protoss. Bonus damage against shields does not matter if they cannot get in range of the enemy. Stalkers, Immortals, and Colossus outrange them so widow mines will be of limited use after early mid game.
They will be strong against Protoss players that a-moves Zealots into mine fields, but that is the same as a-moving marines into banelings.
I think it's weird how Blizzard nerfs/buffs in HotS: 1st: Terran dominates Zerg, Blizzard doesn't do anything -> Zerg gets used to the Widow Mines -> Widow Mines get nerfed 2nd: Zerg dominates Terran -> Terrans get used to it and win more often -> Widow Mines get buffed?
On July 18 2014 22:53 ETisME wrote: The problem with widow mine is that it ignores upgrades.
Mine shots being a spell is close to hellbats being biological on the scale of the most stupid things in SC2.
And you can't micro out from a shot, every micro is done pre engagement, sniping mines with muta and keep poking until you think you have enough. [...] That's not increasing zerg micro, because you technically cannot split out from a mine shot in an engagement.
This goes back to a basic issue with the SC2 engine (or a voluntary design decision, but that'd be strange), in that once a projectile is shot at one of your units, it *will* hit, no matter if the targeted unit gets far beyond the theoretical max range of the projectile. Where's the game design advantage in this kind of behavior? If projectiles expired once at max range, it'd become possible to micro out of mine shots (and others), which would be both more logical and more interesting. Though it still doesn't warrant having a single unit able to randomly kill ten times its worth in lings/banes (emphasis on randomly).
On July 18 2014 22:46 Faust852 wrote: Once again, it is not instant damage. You have to burrow it, and then there is 2s of charging.
(1.5 according to LP, but yeah) And once it shoots, you can't avoid it even if you get technically out of range.
And you can cast 2 storms with a HT, and with 2 HT, you have 4 storms, and one archon.
And for the gas price of 2 HT you have 12 mines. But it costs more supply. But it comes a lot sooner. But HTs are always mobile. But WMs are burrowed when armed. ...why are those units compared in the first place?
You could compare it to a baneling, since they come approximately at the same time, cost nearly the same amount, except that in exchange for the 40s cooldown, banes are not ranged, do not hit air, are not invisible when ready to attack, can be avoided, have a smaller splash area and die on their first attack. But they cost less supply. That's closer, but still not comparable either.
On July 18 2014 21:08 Faust852 wrote: If you reduce the radius from 1,75 to 1,5, the WM will be utter shit in both TvP and TvZ. WM already look very few probes per hit, imagine with a shorter radius.
You can't be serious. It certainly won't be overpowered, but it certainly won't be "utter shit". I refer to a subsequent post :
On July 18 2014 21:48 Salient wrote: The original widow mine was a powerful unit. No one would have suggested giving it +40 bonus damage against shields. That buff only made sense in some way after the mine had been nerfed to oblivion. The bonus damage versus shields is gratuitous overkill once the widow mine is restored to its original statistics. The balance test map has WMs as 75 mineral units that do more damage to Protoss units than Psy Storm. The damage is instant (unlike Psy Storm), and WMs can be reactored at 6:00 (compared to massively expensive and much later Tier 3 Psy Storm). It's pretty crazy.
Yes, 80 instant damage, even in short range and dodgeable, seems totally barmy to me. I'm all for a 1.75 radius for the mine, though I admit I'd be afraid of a too violent balance shift in TvZ, but not with a full +40 shields.
Once again, it is not instant damage. You have to burrow it, and then there is 2s of charging. It's more than a storm that is instant casted and last 4s. And you can cast 2 storms with a HT, and with 2 HT, you have 4 storms, and one archon. And a WM become useless for 40s after it hits.
We're doing this again? A HT needs to wait 44.44s to regenerate enough energy for the first storm; a widow mine can fire twice in that time. If you don't morph them into archons you have to wait another 133s (another 3 WM shots) to be able to cast a storm. Also WMs can't be disabled via feedback/EMP and you don't have to manually fire. They also force detection. These 2 units can't be directly compared. Stop talking semantics. If the WM is triggered it hits unless the unit is picked up or blinked away but even then splash damage occurs.
On July 18 2014 18:24 LSN wrote: ZvT will be stupid to play and watch again while the lategame weaknesses of terran wont be at all addressed with this (if zergs anyhow survive the 20-25 minute survival game).
I wonder why blizzard does not realize that balancing TvZ on a single stale style of play that allows/forces one race to constantly attack and the other race to only defend for half an hour is nothing but bad. Even hellbats wont have a role in this anymore as they require some commitment from the terran (which includes risks) while going straight into 4m macro rally has it all and can't be countered in early-mid.
Instead of developing the game further into a direction of different openings for both races that kind of counter each other and allow players to dynamically adapt to each other and create interesting variable games, they choose the solution that really makes one thing obvious: They don't at all know how to do it better.
But there are alot of possible approaches. The fact that T is weak in the lategame against both P and Z and is more or less stuck on bio in both mups makes it quite easy to do this better: The Raven missile could be changed so that it always hits in combination with a fix of PDD. The mine should never be the core unit of terran gameplay but the tank! Therefore tank mechanics and counter mechanics could be tweaked as mentioned hundred times in these threads (e.g. immortal shield mechanics, +dmg vs light/massive for tanks, etc.). Thors could be changed to complement this.
I can't imagine a single zerg out there that enjoys this always repeating kind of ZvT meta which does not allow any creativity but is in fact a devensive do or die situation for about 20-25 minutes in every game without anything to fall back on like MSC, mines, wall-ins with bunkers, with banelings taking that long to replenish, and then ends up in the exact same bemoaned situation that we have now. T and Z have reversed roles in TvZ when looking at the race mechanics and available units and this should be some long term goal to fix for blizzard.
Time to put SC2 aside until expansion2 release I guess. These changes wont improve SC2 a bit but only the winrates of terran.
I've said it a bunch of times, the real problem is the marine. Marines are so stupidly good and cost-effective that everything else about Terran has to be crippled to avoid breaking the game. Marines ensure that Terran late game will always suck. It's impossible to make it not suck without overpowering Terran in the early/mid game. The short Terran tech tree means that good late game units become overpowered cheese units when combined with the marine in the early/midgame.
Lategame Terran often has like 4000+ gas banked. They can't spend it because they don't have a gas dump, and they can't have a gas dump because if they did the short tech tree would let them cheese the fuck out of their opponents. Why do you think the banshee takes 60 seconds to build? That's a horrible cost:build time ratio, the void ray costs a lot more and also builds in 60 seconds, AND Protoss has chrono boost. It takes 60 seconds because if it built in, say, 30 seconds and thus was massable early, Terran could easily cheese Zerg out of the game with 1 base marine/banshee. How are you going to beat that? Are you going to expand, and then make banelings AND hydralisks? It's impossible, and that's why the banshee has to take eons to build, so Zerg can fight 1 base banshee production with just queens and focus all the rest of their units on countering the marines.
Now, look at the siege tank. Same problem. It's another potential gas dump, and is naturally strong against what marines are weak against, and vice versa. Say you give it a substantial buff. Now it's that much better at protecting marines from banelings, and Zerg is just going to get routed by early/midgame marine/tank timings.
Why did the warhound get taken out? Same reason. 1-base warhound/marine cheese beats everything, because the warhound protects the marine from its early/midgame counters far too well. They made a great barrier to absorb baneling hits and 7 range prevented Protoss from kiting with stalkers.
This is why the widow mine got nerfed. Yeah, there's a whole list of drawbacks. It's mineral heavy, fires randomly, deals friendly fire and costs a lot of supply. Wasn't enough. It effectively protected marines from their early/midgame counter (banelings) and without that counter, the marines just hose everything else the fuck down. This forced Zerg to stay at midgame/Lair tech just to survive, and eventually 3/3 would kick in and the parade push would crush them. Then the mine got nerfed. All of a sudden, it's no longer effective marine protection and now Terran has jack and shit. All their other stuff has been neutered to balance the marine. Terran is SOL. Now it's getting unnerfed, and we're going back to square one. It's honestly the best Blizzard can do, because the host of drawbacks this unit has means it's really a terrible counter to AoE damage. But again, because the marine is just so amazingly and stupidly good, a terrible counter is all you need. Seriously, 50 minerals for the same DPS as a pre-patch 100/50 hydralisk!
TL;DR: You can't buff Terran lategame because the short Terran tech tree means any "lategame" buff will just be abused as an early game cheese featuring marines + the buffed unit + pulled SCVs.
This post makes way more sense than I thought it would having read the first sentence...
Eh, it's pure speculation about Blizzard's intentions and goes counter to what Blizzard has actually stated. And the reason banshees take very long to build is because they're a detection check, it's the same reason why the dark shrine takes eons. It's not because of marines, all the build times of all the terran tech units date to WoL beta when marines were underused.
On July 18 2014 21:36 Xequecal wrote: I've said it a bunch of times, the real problem is the marine. Marines are so stupidly good and cost-effective that everything else about Terran has to be crippled to avoid breaking the game. Marines ensure that Terran late game will always suck. It's impossible to make it not suck without overpowering Terran in the early/mid game. The short Terran tech tree means that good late game units become overpowered cheese units when combined with the marine in the early/midgame.
Upgraded SC2 marines get +10 health compared to upgraded BW marines (alternatively, unupgraded SC2 marines get +1 range compared to unupgraded BW marines), and everyone loses their mind.
If banshees built faster, they'd even be a problem in TvT (where they'd rip apart the limited marine numbers -- guess the marine isn't the problem there!). The banshee is simply a unit that can be extremely cost effective with good control. That's what justifies the build time.
SC2 siege tanks are considerably buffed compared to BW (they don't even need an upgrade for siege mode anymore!). In return, they cost an extra 25 gas and 1 supply. The idea that this unit is "crippled" is preposterous. What "cripples" it is powerful counter-units from the other races: super-buffed HotS mutalisks (they were fine in WoL and -- surprise -- we saw plenty of siege tanks in TvZ, even without their HotS buffs) and the immortal (this unit has always been a problem in SC2, preventing mech in TvP).
The warhound wasn't taken out because of marine/warhound cheeses. This is hilarious revisionist history.
The widow mine got nerfed because Zergs were complaining about the match up being hard, despite the balance stats showing an even game. David Kim's recent interview with OGN shows his regret that they didn't wait longer before considering a widow mine nerf, and is why they're looking to re-buff the unit now. Read the interview.
And it's easy to give a gazdump for terran. Buff snipe for ghost (like before they nerfed it to hell - dmg vs heavy) then make it cost 150/150 back. Or even 125/175. And tada ! You have a late game unit that doesn't suck ass and that is using the gaz.
On July 19 2014 06:13 iamcaustic wrote: Upgraded SC2 marines get +10 health compared to upgraded BW marines (alternatively, unupgraded SC2 marines get +1 range compared to unupgraded BW marines), and everyone loses their mind.
If banshees built faster, they'd even be a problem in TvT (where they'd rip apart the limited marine numbers -- guess the marine isn't the problem there!). The banshee is simply a unit that can be extremely cost effective with good control. That's what justifies the build time.
SC2 siege tanks are considerably buffed compared to BW (they don't even need an upgrade for siege mode anymore!). In return, they cost an extra 25 gas and 1 supply. The idea that this unit is "crippled" is preposterous. What "cripples" it is powerful counter-units from the other races: super-buffed HotS mutalisks (they were fine in WoL and -- surprise -- we saw plenty of siege tanks in TvZ, even without their HotS buffs) and the immortal (this unit has always been a problem in SC2, preventing mech in TvP).
The warhound wasn't taken out because of marine/warhound cheeses. This is hilarious revisionist history.
The widow mine got nerfed because Zergs were complaining about the match up being hard, despite the balance stats showing an even game. David Kim's recent interview with OGN shows his regret that they didn't wait longer before considering a widow mine nerf, and is why they're looking to re-buff the unit now. Read the interview.
First of all, it's +15, and second of all, marines can't be massed early in BW like they can in SC2. There's no reactors and the build time is the same. Next, even though the marine is much weaker, standard BW Zerg strategy against marines is to hide behind a wall of sunkens at the natural until mutalisks are out, which force the Terran to keep units at home. Zerg needs defilers to go on the offensive against marines, and they work because dark swarm makes marines do absolutely NOTHING and Terran's only counter to dark swarm is to kill the defilers before they can cast it. Marines also benefit more than any other unit from the removal of the 12-unit cap, making it possible to stim and kite with huge balls of them.
On July 19 2014 06:13 iamcaustic wrote:The widow mine got nerfed because Zergs were complaining about the match up being hard, despite the balance stats showing an even game. David Kim's recent interview with OGN shows his regret that they didn't wait longer before considering a widow mine nerf, and is why they're looking to re-buff the unit now. Read the interview.
It was roach bane allin almost every game or parade push into terran win. Very fun. Almost like Wol PvZ, immortal allin or die in macro to BL/infestor. Even though the stats may be around 50%, it just sucks hard.
On July 19 2014 07:29 Tuczniak wrote: It was roach bane allin almost every game or parade push into terran win. Very fun. Almost like Wol PvZ, immortal allin or die in macro to BL/infestor. Even though the stats may be around 50%, it just sucks hard.
Bla, bla, bla. Repeating the same lies over and over does not make them any more true.
On July 19 2014 06:13 iamcaustic wrote:The widow mine got nerfed because Zergs were complaining about the match up being hard, despite the balance stats showing an even game. David Kim's recent interview with OGN shows his regret that they didn't wait longer before considering a widow mine nerf, and is why they're looking to re-buff the unit now. Read the interview.
It was roach bane allin almost every game or parade push into terran win. Very fun. Almost like Wol PvZ, immortal allin or die in macro to BL/infestor. Even though the stats may be around 50%, it just sucks hard.
the match up took skill. I think when Hots first came out it was more of a map issue,not widow mine being super strong.
Most of the maps were smaller and allowed Terran to easily parade push non stop to the zergs 4th preventing the zerg from ever getting it up and starving the zerg with cost efficient trades all game.
We have a better variety of good zerg maps these days, and we are a year into HOTS everyone learned to play, old window mine should be perfectly fine now.
On July 19 2014 07:29 Tuczniak wrote: It was roach bane allin almost every game or parade push into terran win. Very fun. Almost like Wol PvZ, immortal allin or die in macro to BL/infestor. Even though the stats may be around 50%, it just sucks hard.
Bla, bla, bla. Repeating the same lies over and over does not make them any more true.
It wasn't a win every time for terran, but it really was 4M every single fucking game more or less. It got old fast. At least we see something else now.
Going back to endless 3 base parade pushes with mines that blow up the entire zerg army is not the way to do this imo. There are other ways to help terran, looking at units that rarely get used would be better.
On July 19 2014 06:13 iamcaustic wrote: Upgraded SC2 marines get +10 health compared to upgraded BW marines (alternatively, unupgraded SC2 marines get +1 range compared to unupgraded BW marines), and everyone loses their mind.
If banshees built faster, they'd even be a problem in TvT (where they'd rip apart the limited marine numbers -- guess the marine isn't the problem there!). The banshee is simply a unit that can be extremely cost effective with good control. That's what justifies the build time.
SC2 siege tanks are considerably buffed compared to BW (they don't even need an upgrade for siege mode anymore!). In return, they cost an extra 25 gas and 1 supply. The idea that this unit is "crippled" is preposterous. What "cripples" it is powerful counter-units from the other races: super-buffed HotS mutalisks (they were fine in WoL and -- surprise -- we saw plenty of siege tanks in TvZ, even without their HotS buffs) and the immortal (this unit has always been a problem in SC2, preventing mech in TvP).
The warhound wasn't taken out because of marine/warhound cheeses. This is hilarious revisionist history.
The widow mine got nerfed because Zergs were complaining about the match up being hard, despite the balance stats showing an even game. David Kim's recent interview with OGN shows his regret that they didn't wait longer before considering a widow mine nerf, and is why they're looking to re-buff the unit now. Read the interview.
First of all, it's +15, and second of all, marines can't be massed early in BW like they can in SC2. There's no reactors and the build time is the same. Next, even though the marine is much weaker, standard BW Zerg strategy against marines is to hide behind a wall of sunkens at the natural until mutalisks are out, which force the Terran to keep units at home. Zerg needs defilers to go on the offensive against marines, and they work because dark swarm makes marines do absolutely NOTHING and Terran's only counter to dark swarm is to kill the defilers before they can cast it. Marines also benefit more than any other unit from the removal of the 12-unit cap, making it possible to stim and kite with huge balls of them.
Additionally: while the marine was buffed, zerglings got nerfed to account for smarter surround AI. BW marines had 64% of the dps of zerglings, while SC2 ones have 97% of the dps of SC2 zerglings. Stim used to be more powerful, but even then we're looking at a BW 128% dps ratio between stimmed marine and zergling, compared to 145% from SC2
On July 19 2014 07:29 Tuczniak wrote: It was roach bane allin almost every game or parade push into terran win. Very fun. Almost like Wol PvZ, immortal allin or die in macro to BL/infestor. Even though the stats may be around 50%, it just sucks hard.
Bla, bla, bla. Repeating the same lies over and over does not make them any more true.
It wasn't a win every time for terran, but it really was 4M every single fucking game more or less. It got old fast. At least we see something else now.
What else do we see now, besides occasional mech (which usually fails)?
Even if the unit compositions are mostly the same every game, doesn't mean the games can't be entertaining.
I also don't understand why people even bother comparing sc2 unit stats to sc1... absolutely makes no sense. It's not even the same engine. It's all about the relative power of each unit when put in context and compared to other units of the same game. Looking at stat number differences between sc1 and 2 is pointless.
On July 19 2014 07:29 Tuczniak wrote: It was roach bane allin almost every game or parade push into terran win. Very fun. Almost like Wol PvZ, immortal allin or die in macro to BL/infestor. Even though the stats may be around 50%, it just sucks hard.
Bla, bla, bla. Repeating the same lies over and over does not make them any more true.
It wasn't a win every time for terran, but it really was 4M every single fucking game more or less. It got old fast. At least we see something else now.
Going back to endless 3 base parade pushes with mines that blow up the entire zerg army is not the way to do this imo. There are other ways to help terran, looking at units that rarely get used would be better.
We see terrans losing over and over. Very much better yes. WMs buff won't prevent hellbat timing or mech. Nothing will change composition wise. We'll just see less biohellbat and more 4m. But all in all nothing changed but using HBs instead of WMs depending the preference of the player.
Upgraded SC2 marines get +10 health compared to upgraded BW marines (alternatively, unupgraded SC2 marines get +1 range compared to unupgraded BW marines), and everyone loses their mind.
BW marines have a range upgrade just like the sc2 counterpart. 5range for both total.
BW marines stimpick is 50% better than sc2 stimpack. BW with stim: 0.4~ Sc2 with stim: 0.6~
The other difference is the mediv vs medivac.
marines can't be massed early in BW like they can in SC2. There's no reactors and the build time is the same
Everyrace gets units faster. The economy in sc2 is fasterpaced than in broodwar.
^anyway, it's impossible the touch at the marine without breaking the game for years.
Really doubt this. If blizzard truly wanted to change something i think they could succeed in a short time. "careers on the line" will always fuck it changes up to much. Not that i think the marine is the evil unit here, nah. I believe changes to other units can be made without breaking the game and at the same time if other units for terran gets buffed so they get "available" and it gets to strong with marines? Just look at the other races then. But ofcourse, wont happen in hots->"carrers on the line" is to big for them
- About the widowminebuff making it 4M: If it become 4M every game, look at infestor/hydralisk. I dont see why this is not possible: Make the root block widowmines for shooting(or something else) Hydras could get faster movement speed or make hydras a new passive ability that required an upgrade: When moving offcreep the unit has the creepmovementspeed for 15seconds.
Hydrabuff to get him to be able to do more micro is a good change. Infestor that makes him require accuration and tactic engagements with the roaches or lings is a good change.
Both changes would be fun atleast. Pretty sure the infestor is "easy" to get to work vs widowmines while the hydras would need more thought.
Would be fun atleast if hydras could work to snipe those widowmines, so when zerg gets good at it terran want to add tanks when he see zerg goes hydras or many infestors etc.
TVP: perfect spot to change the zealot or storm to compete with the widowmine and the buffed hydras.
On July 19 2014 06:13 iamcaustic wrote: Upgraded SC2 marines get +10 health compared to upgraded BW marines (alternatively, unupgraded SC2 marines get +1 range compared to unupgraded BW marines), and everyone loses their mind.
If banshees built faster, they'd even be a problem in TvT (where they'd rip apart the limited marine numbers -- guess the marine isn't the problem there!). The banshee is simply a unit that can be extremely cost effective with good control. That's what justifies the build time.
SC2 siege tanks are considerably buffed compared to BW (they don't even need an upgrade for siege mode anymore!). In return, they cost an extra 25 gas and 1 supply. The idea that this unit is "crippled" is preposterous. What "cripples" it is powerful counter-units from the other races: super-buffed HotS mutalisks (they were fine in WoL and -- surprise -- we saw plenty of siege tanks in TvZ, even without their HotS buffs) and the immortal (this unit has always been a problem in SC2, preventing mech in TvP).
The warhound wasn't taken out because of marine/warhound cheeses. This is hilarious revisionist history.
The widow mine got nerfed because Zergs were complaining about the match up being hard, despite the balance stats showing an even game. David Kim's recent interview with OGN shows his regret that they didn't wait longer before considering a widow mine nerf, and is why they're looking to re-buff the unit now. Read the interview.
First of all, it's +15, and second of all, marines can't be massed early in BW like they can in SC2. There's no reactors and the build time is the same. Next, even though the marine is much weaker, standard BW Zerg strategy against marines is to hide behind a wall of sunkens at the natural until mutalisks are out, which force the Terran to keep units at home. Zerg needs defilers to go on the offensive against marines, and they work because dark swarm makes marines do absolutely NOTHING and Terran's only counter to dark swarm is to kill the defilers before they can cast it. Marines also benefit more than any other unit from the removal of the 12-unit cap, making it possible to stim and kite with huge balls of them.
Oh right, their base +5, I was only thinking of combat shields. Good call.
I'm not sure why you're comparing strategies between BW and SC2; Zergs have units like banelings now, which are very accessible and don't force the Zerg to hide behind a sunken wall until lair. It's not like marines got these minor buffs without any sort of response from the other races in terms of design.
Reactors still take 50 seconds to build and stop unit production entirely during that time. This is why you see Terrans 2rax cheese instead of 1rax reactor. There's also only so much you can afford on one base (especially for an all-in!). The entire point about marines making early tech all-ins OP is ludicrous.
On July 19 2014 06:13 iamcaustic wrote: Upgraded SC2 marines get +10 health compared to upgraded BW marines (alternatively, unupgraded SC2 marines get +1 range compared to unupgraded BW marines), and everyone loses their mind.
If banshees built faster, they'd even be a problem in TvT (where they'd rip apart the limited marine numbers -- guess the marine isn't the problem there!). The banshee is simply a unit that can be extremely cost effective with good control. That's what justifies the build time.
SC2 siege tanks are considerably buffed compared to BW (they don't even need an upgrade for siege mode anymore!). In return, they cost an extra 25 gas and 1 supply. The idea that this unit is "crippled" is preposterous. What "cripples" it is powerful counter-units from the other races: super-buffed HotS mutalisks (they were fine in WoL and -- surprise -- we saw plenty of siege tanks in TvZ, even without their HotS buffs) and the immortal (this unit has always been a problem in SC2, preventing mech in TvP).
The warhound wasn't taken out because of marine/warhound cheeses. This is hilarious revisionist history.
The widow mine got nerfed because Zergs were complaining about the match up being hard, despite the balance stats showing an even game. David Kim's recent interview with OGN shows his regret that they didn't wait longer before considering a widow mine nerf, and is why they're looking to re-buff the unit now. Read the interview.
First of all, it's +15, and second of all, marines can't be massed early in BW like they can in SC2. There's no reactors and the build time is the same. Next, even though the marine is much weaker, standard BW Zerg strategy against marines is to hide behind a wall of sunkens at the natural until mutalisks are out, which force the Terran to keep units at home. Zerg needs defilers to go on the offensive against marines, and they work because dark swarm makes marines do absolutely NOTHING and Terran's only counter to dark swarm is to kill the defilers before they can cast it. Marines also benefit more than any other unit from the removal of the 12-unit cap, making it possible to stim and kite with huge balls of them.
Additionally: while the marine was buffed, zerglings got nerfed to account for smarter surround AI. BW marines had 64% of the dps of zerglings, while SC2 ones have 97% of the dps of SC2 zerglings. Stim used to be more powerful, but even then we're looking at a BW 128% dps ratio between stimmed marine and zergling, compared to 145% from SC2
Again, Zerglings got this cool ability to morph into banelings. There's also this thing called a Queen that lets you make way more Zerglings than you ever could in BW during the early game. Design changes warrant stat adjustments. Zergling production with 3 larvae per hatch doesn't have to compete with marines on its own anymore.
Overall, I feel like people need to take a step back from the tunnel vision of isolated unit vs. unit stats and realize there are more factors at play that makes Zerg early game much stronger than it was in BW (which isn't a bad thing at all) and is more than capable of handling the new marines. This is like some WoL beta argument nonsense that has long since been disproven, but here we are for some reason.
On July 19 2014 13:02 iamcaustic wrote: Oh right, their base +5, I was only thinking of combat shields. Good call.
I'm not sure why you're comparing strategies between BW and SC2; Zergs have units like banelings now, which are very accessible and don't force the Zerg to hide behind a sunken wall until lair. It's not like marines got these minor buffs without any sort of response from the other races in terms of design.
Reactors still take 50 seconds to build and stop unit production entirely during that time. This is why you see Terrans 2rax cheese instead of 1rax reactor. There's also only so much you can afford on one base (especially for an all-in!). The entire point about marines making early tech all-ins OP is ludicrous.
Yes, you can only afford so much on one base. That's kind of the point. Siege tanks and banshees are gas heavy units, which makes them perfect to pair with marines in a 1-base cheese, since the marines only cost minerals.
The point is that a significant buff to banshees, tanks, ravens, or probably even thors in an attempt to strengthen the Terran late game will make the 1-base plays absurdly strong because these gas-heavy units can be produced effectively on a 1-base economy alongside the mineral-only marines. Zerg is in serious trouble if Terran can get out enough banshees to overpower queens before they have the resources and tech to make both hydralisks or mutalisks and banelings to counter both.
Widow mines, on the other hand, are also mineral heavy, so they pair poorly with marines for the same purpose, and thus buffing them is a much safer option. The problem is this doesn't really help the Terran lategame, but there's no good way to do that without risking the spawning of another overpowered 1/1/1 style strategy, the strength of which was very much borne out of pairing marines with gas-heavy tech units that compensated for their weaknesses to perform a 1-base allin.
On July 19 2014 13:02 iamcaustic wrote: Oh right, their base +5, I was only thinking of combat shields. Good call.
I'm not sure why you're comparing strategies between BW and SC2; Zergs have units like banelings now, which are very accessible and don't force the Zerg to hide behind a sunken wall until lair. It's not like marines got these minor buffs without any sort of response from the other races in terms of design.
Reactors still take 50 seconds to build and stop unit production entirely during that time. This is why you see Terrans 2rax cheese instead of 1rax reactor. There's also only so much you can afford on one base (especially for an all-in!). The entire point about marines making early tech all-ins OP is ludicrous.
Yes, you can only afford so much on one base. That's kind of the point. Siege tanks and banshees are gas heavy units, which makes them perfect to pair with marines in a 1-base cheese, since the marines only cost minerals.
The point is that a significant buff to banshees, tanks, ravens, or probably even thors in an attempt to strengthen the Terran late game will make the 1-base plays absurdly strong because these gas-heavy units can be produced effectively on a 1-base economy alongside the mineral-only marines. Zerg is in serious trouble if Terran can get out enough banshees to overpower queens before they have the resources and tech to make both hydralisks or mutalisks and banelings to counter both.
Widow mines, on the other hand, are also mineral heavy, so they pair poorly with marines for the same purpose, and thus buffing them is a much safer option. The problem is this doesn't really help the Terran lategame, but there's no good way to do that without risking the spawning of another overpowered 1/1/1 style strategy, the strength of which was very much borne out of pairing marines with gas-heavy tech units that compensated for their weaknesses to perform a 1-base allin.
Banshee do good ground damage but i dont think the reason this unit doesnt get a buff is because marines are so strong and they made a deadly combo, no. I believe the reason is because they are: 1) air unit. 2) not ground unit
Ground units vs ground units makes for a better gameplay overall since thats where you can make most moves against each other.
You say the reason for banshee not getting a buff is because the marine are so strong. You have anything to back this up?
On July 19 2014 13:02 iamcaustic wrote: Oh right, their base +5, I was only thinking of combat shields. Good call.
I'm not sure why you're comparing strategies between BW and SC2; Zergs have units like banelings now, which are very accessible and don't force the Zerg to hide behind a sunken wall until lair. It's not like marines got these minor buffs without any sort of response from the other races in terms of design.
Reactors still take 50 seconds to build and stop unit production entirely during that time. This is why you see Terrans 2rax cheese instead of 1rax reactor. There's also only so much you can afford on one base (especially for an all-in!). The entire point about marines making early tech all-ins OP is ludicrous.
Yes, you can only afford so much on one base. That's kind of the point. Siege tanks and banshees are gas heavy units, which makes them perfect to pair with marines in a 1-base cheese, since the marines only cost minerals.
The point is that a significant buff to banshees, tanks, ravens, or probably even thors in an attempt to strengthen the Terran late game will make the 1-base plays absurdly strong because these gas-heavy units can be produced effectively on a 1-base economy alongside the mineral-only marines. Zerg is in serious trouble if Terran can get out enough banshees to overpower queens before they have the resources and tech to make both hydralisks or mutalisks and banelings to counter both.
Widow mines, on the other hand, are also mineral heavy, so they pair poorly with marines for the same purpose, and thus buffing them is a much safer option. The problem is this doesn't really help the Terran lategame, but there's no good way to do that without risking the spawning of another overpowered 1/1/1 style strategy, the strength of which was very much borne out of pairing marines with gas-heavy tech units that compensated for their weaknesses to perform a 1-base allin.
You've never really done a lot of 1-base all-ins as Terran, have you? The worry for Zerg is especially ridiculous, because they'll always have the capability of being on 2 bases against any 1-base all-in from Terran. That's just the way it is. The number of marines you can get will never be able to overpower the number of zerglings and, potentially, banelings. From there, you're only left with anywhere from 1-3 of whichever tech unit you decided to make.
The only potentially frightening unit for a Zerg would be the banshee due to cloak, but now that spore crawlers only require a spawning pool, that's not even close to an issue anymore. There's a reason you never, ever see 1-base all-ins in TvZ anymore unless it's a 2rax (i.e. the only thing that can hit early enough to potentially do enough damage to justify, and is still 100% holdable).
When people are requesting late-game buffs for Terran, they're more looking at the thor, siege tank, raven and battlecruiser. IMO thors and siege tanks don't need buffs (TvT is a good metric for this) and ravens, if anything, might need a nerf due to the mass raven late game. So, we'd be looking at battlecruiser buffs, and if you think you'll be seeing 1-base battlecruiser rushes in TvZ because of it, I don't even know what to tell you.
EDIT: Also, your comparison to WMs vs. more gas-heavy units is absolutely crazy. WMs cost far fewer minerals and gas, making their inclusion in early all-ins much MUCH better. Due to the low gas count (and no need for starport) your early economy is focusing much harder on mineral income. Furthermore, you can get 2 WMs for the same mineral cost of a siege tank. Going for gas-heavy early game hampers your mineral income, which is detrimental to producing a lot of mineral units.
I do a double-siege tank drop in TvT (2 tanks, 2 medivacs, 8 marines) before expand. I'm always mineral broke. If those were WMs, not only would I be able to cut out an entire refinery and focus on more mineral mining, but I would have 4 WMs instead of 2 tanks for the same mineral requirement, on top of more marines due to the better mineral income.
On July 19 2014 13:02 iamcaustic wrote: Oh right, their base +5, I was only thinking of combat shields. Good call.
I'm not sure why you're comparing strategies between BW and SC2; Zergs have units like banelings now, which are very accessible and don't force the Zerg to hide behind a sunken wall until lair. It's not like marines got these minor buffs without any sort of response from the other races in terms of design.
Reactors still take 50 seconds to build and stop unit production entirely during that time. This is why you see Terrans 2rax cheese instead of 1rax reactor. There's also only so much you can afford on one base (especially for an all-in!). The entire point about marines making early tech all-ins OP is ludicrous.
Yes, you can only afford so much on one base. That's kind of the point. Siege tanks and banshees are gas heavy units, which makes them perfect to pair with marines in a 1-base cheese, since the marines only cost minerals.
The point is that a significant buff to banshees, tanks, ravens, or probably even thors in an attempt to strengthen the Terran late game will make the 1-base plays absurdly strong because these gas-heavy units can be produced effectively on a 1-base economy alongside the mineral-only marines. Zerg is in serious trouble if Terran can get out enough banshees to overpower queens before they have the resources and tech to make both hydralisks or mutalisks and banelings to counter both.
Widow mines, on the other hand, are also mineral heavy, so they pair poorly with marines for the same purpose, and thus buffing them is a much safer option. The problem is this doesn't really help the Terran lategame, but there's no good way to do that without risking the spawning of another overpowered 1/1/1 style strategy, the strength of which was very much borne out of pairing marines with gas-heavy tech units that compensated for their weaknesses to perform a 1-base allin.
Maybe 135 hp and 1 armor on the viking would help terran late game. It's a gimpy goliath otherwise, but give it a bit of a helping hand in hp and armor department, and it's AA role against colossus protected by storms and stalkers is better, and it's ground support role improves as well, making it a more well rounded unit to produce a large quantity of for planned transformations to finish ground armies after whatever massive/air is taken out that needs to be.
The thor's AA cannon vs armored units is still so very terrible..
I think the biggest clue that the game is supposed to revolve around a mix of different "tier" units comes from the fact that there are specialized upgrades for every low tier unit which improve their power significantly. Just something to think about.
Maybe 135 hp and 1 armor on the viking would help terran late game.
Rather just give it a better moving shot tbh.
Well, vikings are designed to handle wraith and goliath duties from brood war, but separately. The transform process is a bit of a kink in that design, taking so long and getting shot while doing it. With a bump in armor and a tiny more hp, it takes one or two more hits to kill them, which makes their much higher cost over a goliath semi-reasonable. It also makes sense given that it's an armored unit.
Terran went marine/tank every game in WoL for years, and none complained because, guess what, the bio+aoe vs muta/ling mechanic is FUCKING AWESOME. In fact, it's the most entertaining matchup to watch by far, always has been.
Besides, it's not like the recent mine/hellbat changes changed anything. Terran still go hellion 3cc into bio+choice of one factory aoe unit, and zergs still go muta. The only difference is that now the zerg wins a lot more past a certain stage, while back then the terran was slightly coming out on top (seriously, the win rate was like 47-53).
On July 21 2014 03:31 Teoita wrote: The "4m stale" argument is goddamn stupid.
Terran went marine/tank every game in WoL for years, and none complained because, guess what, the bio+aoe vs muta/ling mechanic is FUCKING AWESOME. In fact, it's the most entertaining matchup to watch by far, always has been.
Besides, it's not like the recent mine/hellbat changes changed anything. Terran still go hellion 3cc into bio+choice of one factory aoe unit, and zergs still go muta. The only difference is that now the zerg wins a lot more past a certain stage, while back then the terran was slightly coming out on top (seriously, the win rate was like 47-53).
People did complain about seeing mass Marines in every Terran game. They still do. Just read any comment along the lines of "Terran can go *current-flavor-of-marine+something* every game"
On July 21 2014 03:31 Teoita wrote: The "4m stale" argument is goddamn stupid.
Terran went marine/tank every game in WoL for years, and none complained because, guess what, the bio+aoe vs muta/ling mechanic is FUCKING AWESOME. In fact, it's the most entertaining matchup to watch by far, always has been.
Besides, it's not like the recent mine/hellbat changes changed anything. Terran still go hellion 3cc into bio+choice of one factory aoe unit, and zergs still go muta. The only difference is that now the zerg wins a lot more past a certain stage, while back then the terran was slightly coming out on top (seriously, the win rate was like 47-53).
that argument actually was david kim's own reasoning in nerfing the widow mine in the first place. it literally was.
i wont make an effort to look up the exact quote right now, but rest assured that was his explanation. in the same patch the siege tank receive its attack speed buff. paraphrasing david kim, "widow mine tank compositions would be cooler than just watching pure bio".
i personally agree, the 4M style was boring as hell after a while.
the "because WoL was stale, its fine" argument is god damn stupid.
Just because something happened during one time period doesn't automatically make it good or bad in another time period. If progress or growth and diversification is something players want in their game, then we should see how that can be accomplished.
The only real facts that can be argued for "stale" gameplay is that the best strategies will eventually rise to the surface, and then the game may all be the same, because any other strategy is sub-par. It's just like chess; the best strategies are the ones everyone will use, it doesn't matter if you want to be a special snowflake in chess, if you pick sub-optimal strats and usage of your pieces, you lose. Same with SC2 or any RTS. The dud stuff gets mothballed, or is used by low level players forever and ever.
That's the only true argument for accepting "stale" gameplay. There will necessarily be some ideal unit/strat usage based on the mechanics of the game itself that will rise to the top. People want to be able to do multiple different strats and have them function as well as the best. Imagine if tanks actually became a legitimate strategy because they could function as an "anti" build for some particular army comp that protoss has.
It's funny because people say they find 4M boring after a while, and while nothing change, almost everyone still agree that TvZ is the best match up so far. It's always been. Solar vs Taeja was an awesome series and guess what, Taeja went 4M every time. Same vs JD.
On July 21 2014 06:44 Faust852 wrote: It's funny because people say they find 4M boring after a while, and while nothing change, almost everyone still agree that TvZ is the best match up so far. It's always been. Solar vs Taeja was an awesome series and guess what, Taeja went 4M every time. Same vs JD.
And almost everyone that says so will say the same about any other periode of SC2's existance. Marine/Tank, Mech, BL/Infestor, 4M, Ling/Bling/Muta, Ling/Ultra/Infestor... Times are changing but the interactions are just very solid regardless of the chosen strategies. Hence, the things to improve are the available strategies (and the balance of the matchup).
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable. Mech is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ bio are regarded as great games). And I think making the 4M style stronger will also lead at a better mech play and biomech transition style too.
On July 21 2014 06:58 Faust852 wrote: Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable. Mech is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ bio are regarded as great games). And I think making the 4M style stronger will also lead at a better mech play and biomech transition style too.
Is that because the units move around on the screen less? Meh-k to me seems harder to pull off. Positioning and working out how to get your opp out of position seems much more difficult with meh-k, and thus should be seen as more satisfying when it works. Why do people feel meh-k is less fun?
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not. Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games). No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine.
On July 21 2014 06:58 Faust852 wrote: Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable. Mech is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ bio are regarded as great games). And I think making the 4M style stronger will also lead at a better mech play and biomech transition style too.
Is that because the units move around on the screen less? Meh-k to me seems harder to pull off. Positioning and working out how to get your opp out of position seems much more difficult with meh-k, and thus should be seen as more satisfying when it works. Why do people feel meh-k is less fun?
Because it is boring to watcch at every level but top korean level like Flash. When Morrow or Happy play mech, it's campfest for 30min wuth 20 ravens. I play mech every tvz for years now, I know how it can be boring as fuck when there is SH in play too.
On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote: Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not. Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games). No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine.
You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer.
On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote: Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not. Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games). No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine.
You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer.
Don't know where I misquoted you. I didn't even put anything in quotes... Making Mech rarer? Are you kidding me? The only way to make Mech rarer than it is right now is if noone ever plays it. And it's pretty easy to predict that biomech will be dead. It is already dead and the patch does nothing for it...
On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote: Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not. Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games). No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine.
You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer.
Don't know where I misquoted you. I didn't even put anything in quotes... Making Mech rarer? Are you kidding me? The only way to make Mech rarer than it is right now is if noone ever plays it. And it's pretty easy to predict that biomech will be dead. It is already dead and the patch does nothing for it...
Mech will probably always be rare at korean level. It always has even when mech was super popular in Europe. Last year, players like Bunny and Happy were going mech every fucking game in TvT and TvZ and korean always went bio. I don't know why but they don't like mech. And saying that mech is rare isn't really true since i'm pretty sure it represents a good percentage of play at amateur level. It's just the koreans. And about biomech, I think it went dead because it sucked in transition once it was figured out, but with stronger WM, there is no reason this style can't become popular again.
On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote: Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
Bio TvZ make up 10 out of the top 15 games of 2013 on TL. It's fine to have a contrary subjective preference, but don't delude yourself into thinking this is a majority view.
On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote: Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not. Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games). No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine.
You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer.
Don't know where I misquoted you. I didn't even put anything in quotes... Making Mech rarer? Are you kidding me? The only way to make Mech rarer than it is right now is if noone ever plays it. And it's pretty easy to predict that biomech will be dead. It is already dead and the patch does nothing for it...
Mech will probably always be rare at korean level. It always has even when mech was super popular in Europe. Last year, players like Bunny and Happy were going mech every fucking game in TvT and TvZ and korean always went bio. I don't know why but they don't like mech. And saying that mech is rare isn't really true since i'm pretty sure it represents a good percentage of play at amateur level. It's just the koreans. And about biomech, I think it went dead because it sucked in transition once it was figured out, but with stronger WM, there is no reason this style can't become popular again.
That's just not true, at least from my personal experience. When I play Zerg, most Terrans go Bio against me. When I play Terran (and usually Mech), most Zergs that miss the scout on it play as if they were up against bio - because that's what most people do. In TvT, unless it is a really good map for Mech, most people seem to go bio against me. These "everyone on the ladder does it" arguments are just not true. People play bio, and it makes sense, because it is better. Which is the exact same reason why the Koreans play it. (Add to that that the Koreans are awefully slow at developing defensive playstyles)
The European scene seems to play these kind of defensive styles overproportionally often, that is true. I can't tell you why, my guess is, that the European metagame has always been more about defending than attacking and because it is one of the only possibilities to get attention/viewers. If you play like the Koreans, you are just going to be the same standard player, just a little worse. If you play Mech, you can become the Panzergeneral, the most-hated streamer in the community, or the one that even goes Mech against Protoss.
On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote: Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
Bio TvZ make up 10 out of the top 15 games of 2013 on TL. It's fine to have a contrary subjective preference, but don't delude yourself into thinking this is a majority view.
Hm, well that wasn't actually my point. I like watching bio TvZs. It's just a plainly stupid argument. Nearly every Korean Mech game gets very high ratings and in general it's extremely subjective what you like. Just like this "top games of ..." lists. (e.g. I found INnoVation vs Taeja a very entertaining, but pretty lowlevel game, given how often those players fucked up. It made for an entertaining slugfest, but objectively, it included lots and lots of lowlevel mistakes which made it hard to really praise the game for the shown skill)
On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote: Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
Bio TvZ make up 10 out of the top 15 games of 2013 on TL. It's fine to have a contrary subjective preference, but don't delude yourself into thinking this is a majority view.
I think what he's driving at is that it's not bio that makes the game look good or exciting, but how the game itself is played. The units matter less. I bet you a gorillion dollars that if people developed mech strats that took advantage of the strengths of mech to make multi-prong attacks somehow, then mech would be as "exciting".
On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote: Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not. Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games). No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine.
You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer.
Don't know where I misquoted you. I didn't even put anything in quotes... Making Mech rarer? Are you kidding me? The only way to make Mech rarer than it is right now is if noone ever plays it. And it's pretty easy to predict that biomech will be dead. It is already dead and the patch does nothing for it...
Makes meh-k rarer because 4M is easy to do. Biomech is all about upgrades in the MU and positioning. You know how many times I kill Z's by sticking vikings, tanks, and thors in front to soak up banes and the marines on stim to assist and then just roll right over them after the initial Z force is dead?
On July 21 2014 07:32 JIJI_ wrote: just curious why do so many ppl hate on "parade push"?
how else is terran supposed 2 reinforce their armies??
we don't have warp in or lings that speed across......so we have to walk
Got a chuckle. I think they want T to wait until they ball up again and then send their whole army after you've have enough time to remake yours.
On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote: Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
Bio TvZ make up 10 out of the top 15 games of 2013 on TL. It's fine to have a contrary subjective preference, but don't delude yourself into thinking this is a majority view.
Hm, well that wasn't actually my point. I like watching bio TvZs. It's just a plainly stupid argument. Nearly every Korean Mech game gets very high ratings and in general it's extremely subjective what you like. Just like this "top games of ..." lists. (e.g. I found INnoVation vs Taeja a very entertaining, but pretty lowlevel game, given how often those players fucked up. It made for an entertaining slugfest, but objectively, it included lots and lots of lowlevel mistakes which made it hard to really praise the game for the shown skill)
Oh, sorry. I took your post at face value when jumping into the conversation. Clearly that was a mistake!
On July 21 2014 06:58 Faust852 wrote: Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable. Mech is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ bio are regarded as great games). And I think making the 4M style stronger will also lead at a better mech play and biomech transition style too.
Is that because the units move around on the screen less? Meh-k to me seems harder to pull off. Positioning and working out how to get your opp out of position seems much more difficult with meh-k, and thus should be seen as more satisfying when it works. Why do people feel meh-k is less fun?
Because it is boring to watcch at every level but top korean level like Flash. When Morrow or Happy play mech, it's campfest for 30min wuth 20 ravens. I play mech every tvz for years now, I know how it can be boring as fuck when there is SH in play too.
On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote: Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not. Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games). No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine.
You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer.
Not sure if you even watched mech games recently from Koreans............Every single one of them have been the most entertaining games from a Terran in a very long time. It's only peoples opinions, and a strat should not be neglected because a few people on twitch tv find it boring to watch.
The way Koreans play Mech is action packed, harassing all game, tank fire everywhere, even if the games do last longer, recent mech games have been far more entertaining than standard bio play.
Reverting the old WM is not going to help mech........it's going to make Terrans mid game push to the zerg 4th base stronger for bio parade pushes like we saw at the start of HOTS. Be prepared to see good Terrans not even allow Zerg to reach hive on some maps, it's going to be micro wars between lair tech zerg vs 4MM.
Mech isn't just exciting to watch on terran side, there are roach runbys, swarmhost pressure while muta harassing and picking things off with viper help
Only Koreans can produce high level mech games sadly.
On July 21 2014 06:58 Faust852 wrote: Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable. Mech is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ bio are regarded as great games). And I think making the 4M style stronger will also lead at a better mech play and biomech transition style too.
Is that because the units move around on the screen less? Meh-k to me seems harder to pull off. Positioning and working out how to get your opp out of position seems much more difficult with meh-k, and thus should be seen as more satisfying when it works. Why do people feel meh-k is less fun?
Because it is boring to watcch at every level but top korean level like Flash. When Morrow or Happy play mech, it's campfest for 30min wuth 20 ravens. I play mech every tvz for years now, I know how it can be boring as fuck when there is SH in play too.
On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote: Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not. Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games). No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine.
You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer.
Not sure if you even watched mech games recently from Koreans............Every single one of them have been the most entertaining games from a Terran in a very long time. It's only peoples opinions, and a strat should not be neglected because a few people on twitch tv find it boring to watch.
The way Koreans play Mech is action packed, harassing all game, tank fire everywhere, even if the games do last longer, recent mech games have been far more entertaining than standard bio play.
Reverting the old WM is not going to help mech........it's going to make Terrans mid game push to the zerg 4th base stronger for bio parade pushes like we saw at the start of HOTS. Be prepared to see good Terrans not even allow Zerg to reach hive on some maps, it's going to be micro wars between lair tech zerg vs 4MM.
Because it is boring to watch at every level but top korean level like Flash.
And even so, when you watch games like Byul vs Keen... Meh And I like mech usually, I watch every mech pro game I can since I play mech in ladder myself.
I don't see why photon overcharge doesn't get nerfed. Toss players will claim it keeps 4 gate PvP at bay, but at this point you have to wonder whether the benefit of balancing TvP is worth the cost of more 4 gates in PvP.
On July 21 2014 09:33 ETisME wrote: Mech isn't just exciting to watch on terran side, there are roach runbys, swarmhost pressure while muta harassing and picking things off with viper help
Only Koreans can produce high level mech games sadly.
I'd go so far as to say mech is more fun to watch from the Zerg side, apart from the novelty value of seeing Siege Tanks blow stuff the fuck up. Mech just doesn't have a synergetic, highly microable, multi-task rewarding unit like the Vulture to create those amazing plays. If Vultures didn't exist in BW, mech would be boring as hell there, too.
Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
That'd wreck every match up. Why would you suggest such things?
Upgrade: Retrofit Researched at: Engineering Bay (cause that's where upgrades for buildings are) Research Requires: Fusion Core (cause it's for the late game) Research Cost: 50/50 (keeping it on the cheaper side--it's like warpgate, everyone should get it probably) Research Time: Whatever is balanced?
Barracks, Factory, and Starports gain the following ability: New Abilities Retrofit Barracks/Factory/Starport Converts this building into a Barracks/Factory/Starport Cast Time: (much shorter than the build time of a new Barracks/Factory/Starport) Cost: Umm...some resources...maybe less than a new building...whatever is balanced? The building cannot make units until the conversion finishes.
Now Terran can tech switch without banking up and/or finding a ton of empty space for new buildings, but at the cost of halting production. Of course the factory/starport units have to be worth using, but maybe it would encourage more experimentation with late game tech switches.
It's probably not a very good idea, but since it requires a new animation we wouldn't see it till legacy of the void anyway!
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
That'd wreck every match up. Why would you suggest such things?
He wants terran to have a 100% winrate in all matchups (except for the guaranteed 50/50 in TvT of course), and he wants TvT to be bio vs. bio or marine/tank vs. marine/tank exclusively.
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
That'd wreck every match up. Why would you suggest such things?
Look up his posting history. He's clearly joking. Probably.
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
That'd wreck every match up. Why would you suggest such things?
He wants terran to have a 100% winrate in all matchups (except for the guaranteed 50/50 in TvT of course), and he wants TvT to be bio vs. bio or marine/tank vs. marine/tank exclusively.
Obviously mech will have to be buffed so that TvT isn't ruined. :D
Wouldn't mind a tech reactors upgrade from the armory with a long ass research time and high cost. Helps with the sudden tech switches against Z and P very late game, no effect in early / mid game, doesn't change unit stats. Late game terran units will still suck but you can be more flexible.
On July 21 2014 12:45 Genome852 wrote: Wouldn't mind a tech reactors upgrade from the armory with a long ass research time and high cost. Helps with the sudden tech switches against Z and P very late game, no effect in early / mid game, doesn't change unit stats. Late game terran units will still suck but you can be more flexible.
I've thought of this as well...
merge the tech lab and reactor, and thus also make it so you can produce double of those things that needed a tech lab normally. It would basically fix all "tech change" issues terran has late game, by virtue of increasing the production (which would still need lots of money, but by this fact it can remain "balanced").
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
That'd wreck every match up. Why would you suggest such things?
Nonsense! It's actually a terran NERF. Imagine, your DPS can completely drain the medivacs near instantly and then they're useless
On July 21 2014 12:45 Genome852 wrote: Wouldn't mind a tech reactors upgrade from the armory with a long ass research time and high cost. Helps with the sudden tech switches against Z and P very late game, no effect in early / mid game, doesn't change unit stats. Late game terran units will still suck but you can be more flexible.
I've thought of this as well...
merge the tech lab and reactor, and thus also make it so you can produce double of those things that needed a tech lab normally. It would basically fix all "tech change" issues terran has late game, by virtue of increasing the production (which would still need lots of money, but by this fact it can remain "balanced").
I try to minimize tech switch issues by actually having more than one or two of each type of production building.
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
That'd wreck every match up. Why would you suggest such things?
Nonsense! It's actually a terran NERF. Imagine, your DPS can completely drain the medivacs near instantly and then they're useless
On July 21 2014 12:45 Genome852 wrote: Wouldn't mind a tech reactors upgrade from the armory with a long ass research time and high cost. Helps with the sudden tech switches against Z and P very late game, no effect in early / mid game, doesn't change unit stats. Late game terran units will still suck but you can be more flexible.
I've thought of this as well...
merge the tech lab and reactor, and thus also make it so you can produce double of those things that needed a tech lab normally. It would basically fix all "tech change" issues terran has late game, by virtue of increasing the production (which would still need lots of money, but by this fact it can remain "balanced").
I try to minimize tech switch issues by actually having more than one or two of each type of production building.
Obviously....but producing 3-4 banshees at a time after making 3-4 starports and their respective tech labs which all cut into gas and time and space wouldn't be at the level of a zerg making a huge sudden hydra switch with infinite larva which are sitting conveniently next to their many hatches...point should be clear and that's why you don't often see someone who normally has 10+ barracks suddenly create 10+ factories or 10+ starports without cutting huge into gas and space, besides the potential lack of upgrades.
And yes..space matters. I would even call for making the reactor/tech lab combination a 1x1 space object.
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
I approve of this. Only, maybe..... make the nuke kill everything non-terran on the map? Yeah... YEAH!
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
That'd wreck every match up. Why would you suggest such things?
Nonsense! It's actually a terran NERF. Imagine, your DPS can completely drain the medivacs near instantly and then they're useless
On July 21 2014 13:01 emidanRKO wrote:
On July 21 2014 12:45 Genome852 wrote: Wouldn't mind a tech reactors upgrade from the armory with a long ass research time and high cost. Helps with the sudden tech switches against Z and P very late game, no effect in early / mid game, doesn't change unit stats. Late game terran units will still suck but you can be more flexible.
I've thought of this as well...
merge the tech lab and reactor, and thus also make it so you can produce double of those things that needed a tech lab normally. It would basically fix all "tech change" issues terran has late game, by virtue of increasing the production (which would still need lots of money, but by this fact it can remain "balanced").
I try to minimize tech switch issues by actually having more than one or two of each type of production building.
Obviously....but producing 3-4 banshees at a time after making 3-4 starports and their respective tech labs which all cut into gas and time and space wouldn't be at the level of a zerg making a huge sudden hydra switch with infinite larva which are sitting conveniently next to their many hatches...point should be clear and that's why you don't often see someone who normally has 10+ barracks suddenly create 10+ factories or 10+ starports without cutting huge into gas and space, besides the potential lack of upgrades.
And yes..space matters. I would even call for making the reactor/tech lab combination a 1x1 space object.
If you lack upgrades, you don't have enough bases. I can typically fit 6 raxes and 6 factories in my main, along with at least 3 starports with the upgrade buildings.
Maybe Terran isn't meant for massive 100% hard counter unit switches. Maybe Terran is meant to mix and match compositions to achieve the best result with what they have on hand. I'm actually just parade-rolling zerg with T right now on KR/TW pushing forward with landed vikings, siege tanks, and marauders in front with mass marines in back. They have no anti-armored attackers, lings melt and cant surround, banes get kited around the armor units or trade really terribly against viking-tank-marauder mix. Also happens to work vs muta because vikings are good support units for ground or air. Been trying to use them more in MU's because its different from 4M or other bio, or full on thor-tank mech.
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
That'd wreck every match up. Why would you suggest such things?
Nonsense! It's actually a terran NERF. Imagine, your DPS can completely drain the medivacs near instantly and then they're useless
On July 21 2014 13:01 emidanRKO wrote:
On July 21 2014 12:45 Genome852 wrote: Wouldn't mind a tech reactors upgrade from the armory with a long ass research time and high cost. Helps with the sudden tech switches against Z and P very late game, no effect in early / mid game, doesn't change unit stats. Late game terran units will still suck but you can be more flexible.
I've thought of this as well...
merge the tech lab and reactor, and thus also make it so you can produce double of those things that needed a tech lab normally. It would basically fix all "tech change" issues terran has late game, by virtue of increasing the production (which would still need lots of money, but by this fact it can remain "balanced").
I try to minimize tech switch issues by actually having more than one or two of each type of production building.
Obviously....but producing 3-4 banshees at a time after making 3-4 starports and their respective tech labs which all cut into gas and time and space wouldn't be at the level of a zerg making a huge sudden hydra switch with infinite larva which are sitting conveniently next to their many hatches...point should be clear and that's why you don't often see someone who normally has 10+ barracks suddenly create 10+ factories or 10+ starports without cutting huge into gas and space, besides the potential lack of upgrades.
And yes..space matters. I would even call for making the reactor/tech lab combination a 1x1 space object.
If you lack upgrades, you don't have enough bases. I can typically fit 6 raxes and 6 factories in my main, along with at least 3 starports with the upgrade buildings.
Maybe Terran isn't meant for massive 100% hard counter unit switches. Maybe Terran is meant to mix and match compositions to achieve the best result with what they have on hand. I'm actually just parade-rolling zerg with T right now on KR/TW pushing forward with landed vikings, siege tanks, and marauders in front with mass marines in back. They have no anti-armored attackers, lings melt and cant surround, banes get kited around the armor units or trade really terribly against viking-tank-marauder mix. Also happens to work vs muta because vikings are good support units for ground or air. Been trying to use them more in MU's because its different from 4M or other bio, or full on thor-tank mech.
That sounds pretty cool, you could harass overlords and clear the map for drops easily too with vikings like that. Sounds like it might have some trouble at the top level of play due to how strong mutas and mass mass banelings are, but I imagine if you can do some damage with an early hellion or hellbat push it should work out okay. I don't know if it's viable for top korean pros, but it sounds interesting at least.
Can people stop suggesting things that would make Terran wildly overpowered ? If months starved of Terran victories (which is less and less true these days, but anyway) have turned you mad into having secret fantasies of a Terran dominated scene, create a custom map with 100 HP marines who attack with friendly fire less nukes and play it with friends while screaming "TERRAAAAAN !".
On July 21 2014 09:38 Doodsmack wrote: I don't see why photon overcharge doesn't get nerfed. Toss players will claim it keeps 4 gate PvP at bay, but at this point you have to wonder whether the benefit of balancing TvP is worth the cost of more 4 gates in PvP.
It's not 4 gate that will be the problem, it's that it becomes completely impossible to ever expand. All the games will be seriously 1 base vs. 1 base and a significant number will devolve into long-distance mining from the natural because it really will be better to spend your last 400 minerals on 3 stalkers and a sentry rather than attempt to place another nexus. Players will be forced to make stupid economy decisions like deciding whether they want to stay at 22 probes on one base for maximum efficiency or go up to 30 probes in order to mine that little bit faster in exchange for wasting 400 minerals that they will never recover.
Photon Overcharge is the ONLY way to defend your main base economy from getting annihilated by Stargate units. (Oracles or Phoenixes) Stalkers only do 10 damage a shot to light air and are completely unable to prevent Phoenix harass unless you leave so many up there you can't defend your natural anymore. You would need to place 3 photon cannons to defend a mineral line from air harass, and you simply can't afford to waste that much on static defense and still expect to hold your expansion considering how warpgates destroys your defender's advantage and sentries are absolutely impossible to protect from getting wiped out by Phoenixes.
On July 22 2014 04:59 [PkF] Wire wrote: Can people stop suggesting things that would make Terran wildly overpowered ? If months starved of Terran victories (which is less and less true these days, but anyway) have turned you mad into having secret fantasies of a Terran dominated scene, create a custom map with 100 HP marines who attack with friendly fire less nukes and play it with friends while screaming "TERRAAAAAN !".
Honestly, I don't see why they couldn't try putting the medivac heal upgrade back in. Just put it on the fusion core and make it cost 200/200, that way it'll never come out until late game where it's pretty universally understood that Protoss has a huge advantage.
I don't think the medivac heal upgrade would be a problem for TvP, but I think it could make TvZ hugely imbalanced. It was gotten rid of very quickly during beta so there must have been really big problems with it.
By the way, Terran lategame army actually fights quite well with the Protoss one. Probably at a disadvantage, but far from being as huge as most people say it is. It's just that the transition to the 20ish ghosts + marauders + vikings + medivacs army with 15ish SCVs left is so long that usually the Protoss has gained too many advantages on the way for the fight to look fair.
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
this. just one tiny little extra change: 3) stimming deals 55 damage to marines and 125 damage to marauders
In order to help Terran early game against Protoss I'd like to see them give Marines the Yamato Cannon ability. Being able to One Shot stalkers would help against Blink all-in builds.
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
this. just one tiny little extra change: 3) stimming deals 55 damage to marines and 125 damage to marauders
On July 21 2014 10:49 Loccstana wrote: Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way. 2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
this. just one tiny little extra change: 3) stimming deals 55 damage to marines and 125 damage to marauders
This made me LOL
"Press T to die"
It'll teach the little Jimmy Raynors out there to not do drugs