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This was certainly quite a task for one person to assemble, and I applaud you Steven for it. As well, your take home fee from sponsors is quite reasonable considering the time and effort. With that in mind, I would like to discuss your sponsorship and crowdsourced funding, as well as the Kespa situation.
If you decide for your next tourney to go purely crowdsourcing, you can't realistically believe the entire "crowd" will accept $1800 as your cut for the tournament. Although you already have support from most of the community regarding your fee, keep in mind this is because this money was procured from sponsorships.
Hypothetically speaking, lets say you did not have sponsors for Destiny I, so your take home would be a cut from the $5,500 you raised from the community. Do you think we would be readily accepting that you took $1,800 to pay yourself? That is approximately 33% of the money raised. That question can't be reasonably answered, but I can make an assumption that many would not have a positive reception.
If you decide to decline seeking sponsorships, I don't think you can reasonably pay yourself $1,800 because, as Crot4le mentioned, that would turn your entire tournament into a pure charity, and taking a large cut from charity seems unfair and counter-intuitive.
You like transparency, which is great, so if you decide to drop all sponsorships, then please add in your take home fee. You can either decide to take a small percentage or a set fee.
I would suggest you do not drop sponsorships. I think your model of crowdsource for tournament fees, while sponsorship for your fee is a great balance. The crowdsource fund should go directly into the tournament, while sponsorships should pay for your efforts to gain those sponsors.
Now to switch gears and discuss my opinion on Kespa's involvement (or lack of).
It's not unreasonable for Kespa to ask "what can you do for us?" Essentially, they hold most of the cards, and you are not an equal to them. What they want is assurance you will be a success; previous numbers to prove said success; financial documents to determine risk; and probably more information before they make a decision to allow their players an opportunity in your tournament.
Yes, some will say that their risk is negligible for various reasons, but that might not be their perspective. Kespa has a brand to uphold, as much as you do. They will not take any risk to damage their brand, and neither would you.
Kespa is like a bank, and you are seeking a loan. Until you can convince the bank you are a low risk, high reward customer, they will never give you the loan you seek.
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anyone else noticed that the crowd funding took only 281 to complete but more than 400 people voted in the "If you contributed to the last tournament, will you contribute again to the next?" section? seems like we have a bit of haters here.
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On August 12 2014 06:29 vitruvia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 01:24 cheeseheadlogic wrote:On August 12 2014 01:10 Doomhunter wrote: Two points that I want to chime in on:
Kespa - I think that in the future inviting Kespa players is the right thing to do. Kespa's reply to Destiny in my opinion displays their complete obliviousness to the non-Korean StarCraft scene. They have a ton to gain from sending players to this. In all honesty I watched maybe 5 non-playoff Proleague games since EG-TL decided not to participate because I don't really care about the players. The Korean's I know and love are Hero, Polt, MC, Innovation, Bomber, etc because I get to see them play at every tournament and root both for and against them. Kespa has the chance to build the brand of unknown players and draw in viewers for their own league. It doesn't even have to be A-List players like Flash - send Shine, Trust, or Salvation and grow the viewership for games outside of the ones where SKT or KT are playing. Not to mention MAKE YOUR PLAYERS SOME MONEY. Its ridiculous that in 2014 a player like MC is going to out-earn probably 95% of the Kespa players.
Destiny's Fee - 1800 is insanely low for the amount of work he put into this and use of his personal brand. A full week's worth of casting alone is probably worth 1800 not to mention the setup and prep work that went into it. The good news for anyone that disagrees is that if you donated and didn't like the fee, you have the chance to not donate to the next event. My prediction however is that donations will only go up from here. Kespa will always be Kespa, not to begin an ethnic discussion but korean business principles seem to differ compared to NA. They are very stingie with how they handle things and tend to be very filtered, and to a certain extent getting to a point of committal takes longer. Def agree with 1800 being insanely low. Majority of people do not understand the amount of planning, coordination, prep, and actual time put into this type of an event. Tough to put an exact number, but a lot of people who have to do way way less than what Steven did, make more. $1800 for 6+ days of work is less than $300 a day, most of us office workers can get by $200 a day just sitting around playing mmorpgs 50% of the times while at work. Seeing that destiny's getting barely any sleep a day during the 2 weeks around the tournament makes the $1800 pocketed ore than justifiable if not a bit under-deserved.
It's significantly less when you factor in taxes. I wish it was $1800.
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On August 12 2014 01:56 Destiny wrote: KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament.
For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent.
If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever.
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
KeSPA is basically a company and their players are their brand.
B-Teamers: Did you specifically ask KeSPA for B-teamers? The shown mail of the conversation doesn't mention them, so it's unclear. Also offering you B-teamers could've been seen as an insult (by you, but especially by the community). Thus it would tarnish their image. Unless you specifically asked for B-teamers it's understandable, why they didn't offer you some.
Part of their brand is exclusivity. We want KeSPA players, because KeSPA players are not in every tournament. Their brand suffers if they send their players to tournaments with a "it would be cool if we hit those numbers" goal (5k peak; 15k on finals). People want to see Flash vs Jaedong, because they don't get to see Flash vs Jaedong in every small (foreign) tournament. Yes, they have to fuck tournaments to keep their brand important.
Another problem was proleague. If you are not a SKT / KT fan, but a fan of say... Stork and he plays in Destiny I. What would you watch? Destiny I or Proleague? For some people the answer is "Destiny I". Again bad for KeSPA (It's save to assume that they favour Korean tournaments over international ones).
In the end it's your decision.
Being evil: Since it's 100% business related, the answer is pretty clear: KeSPA will increase the value of the tournament. Teams which already supported you, will support you even if you cut their player base. Liquid / EG won't pull the support, since they understand that KeSPA is adding a lot of value. Being thankful to people who helped you is certainly nice; but it's not 100% business.
Keep in mind though that being 100% business might not be the best solution to stay in the business ,)
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Very well done Steven. Keep it up.
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On August 12 2014 05:01 Rikudou wrote: as a european this is a pain in the ass to say, but please start the tournament later because the koreans get really really tired in the semi finals/ grand final and that hurts the quality of the games (like Innovations 3 proxy raxes in a row) but that's your decision (it's just a idea) ! gl hf in the next tournament sir! 15CET =21KST When they should begin? :D
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On August 12 2014 01:56 Destiny wrote: This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
Well, they wanted to see what the tournament looked like. I think it's a good step that you at least received some dialogue, I would have kept that off the forum but hey it is what it is. At the end of the day, you do carry a certain aura in the community, so I can't really blame them for sitting this one out. Hopefully you can appreciate that.
Awesome job on the tournament and the transparency, I really think you made giant leaps forward with Kespa as well, even though it may not feel like it right this second.
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On August 12 2014 00:59 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 00:56 Kimb3r wrote:I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament. You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event. Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about?
Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
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On August 12 2014 07:10 Kimb3r wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 00:59 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 00:56 Kimb3r wrote:I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament. You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event. Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about? Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much. But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
This is the kind of thing someone who hasnt worked a day in his life would say. $1800 for over a months worth of work and organization is dogshit, you're better off working at McDonalds, it's less stress.
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On August 12 2014 07:10 Kimb3r wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 00:59 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 00:56 Kimb3r wrote:I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament. You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event. Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about? Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much. But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
People have bills to pay. Why do you think so many teams shut down? Taking care of your own while still producing an event with a legitimate prize pool isn't too much to ask.
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price is subjective tho bro. how much do you think the redbull casters got? or the taiwan open ppl? pretty sure much more than destiny, but destiny open got most of the viewership.
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On August 12 2014 07:10 Kimb3r wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 00:59 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 00:56 Kimb3r wrote:I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament. You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event. Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about? Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much. But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
The people who donated the $1800 are the sponsoring companies not the guys who donated on indigogo.
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On August 12 2014 07:10 Kimb3r wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 00:59 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 00:56 Kimb3r wrote:I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament. You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event. Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about? Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much. But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it. Why would the people decide that $1,800 is acceptable if that money did not come from the people?
That money came from sponsors, and it is not easy to get the sponsors. You make it sound like the money raised through sponsors should be incorporated into the crowdsourced money. They are not and should not be the same.
However, there comes a point where the balance between sponsorship and crowdsource creates a disparity such that more money is being raised through sponsorships instead of crowdsourcing. At this point, it would be deplorable if Steven took home all the sponsorship money while the tournament itself was funded by the crowdsource.
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I'd prefer a Destiny II without KESPA, Loved to have a foreigner in a final, loved to see Kane and Apocalypse gain name in a high viewership tournament. Together with the nice casting style this tournament created it's own niche, remotely similar to HSC for EU.
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congratz really good tournament and good casters
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On August 12 2014 06:34 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: This was certainly quite a task for one person to assemble, and I applaud you Steven for it. As well, your take home fee from sponsors is quite reasonable considering the time and effort. With that in mind, I would like to discuss your sponsorship and crowdsourced funding, as well as the Kespa situation.
If you decide for your next tourney to go purely crowdsourcing, you can't realistically believe the entire "crowd" will accept $1800 as your cut for the tournament. Although you already have support from most of the community regarding your fee, keep in mind this is because this money was procured from sponsorships.
Hypothetically speaking, lets say you did not have sponsors for Destiny I, so your take home would be a cut from the $5,500 you raised from the community. Do you think we would be readily accepting that you took $1,800 to pay yourself? That is approximately 33% of the money raised. That question can't be reasonably answered, but I can make an assumption that many would not have a positive reception.
If you decide to decline seeking sponsorships, I don't think you can reasonably pay yourself $1,800 because, as Crot4le mentioned, that would turn your entire tournament into a pure charity, and taking a large cut from charity seems unfair and counter-intuitive.
You like transparency, which is great, so if you decide to drop all sponsorships, then please add in your take home fee. You can either decide to take a small percentage or a set fee.
I would suggest you do not drop sponsorships. I think your model of crowdsource for tournament fees, while sponsorship for your fee is a great balance. The crowdsource fund should go directly into the tournament, while sponsorships should pay for your efforts to gain those sponsors.
Now to switch gears and discuss my opinion on Kespa's involvement (or lack of).
It's not unreasonable for Kespa to ask "what can you do for us?" Essentially, they hold most of the cards, and you are not an equal to them. What they want is assurance you will be a success; previous numbers to prove said success; financial documents to determine risk; and probably more information before they make a decision to allow their players an opportunity in your tournament.
Yes, some will say that their risk is negligible for various reasons, but that might not be their perspective. Kespa has a brand to uphold, as much as you do. They will not take any risk to damage their brand, and neither would you.
Kespa is like a bank, and you are seeking a loan. Until you can convince the bank you are a low risk, high reward customer, they will never give you the loan you seek.
I am totally cool with someone making a living out of starcraft. I wish there were more.
Are you jelly or what???
1800$ for what he did is peanuts man.
edit: I dont know why ppl get their panties in a bunch for this seriously. Its like they dont realize there are relations between the risk/reward and time/money concepts lmao.
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congrats destiny, you put a lot of effort in and it showed.
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Canada11355 Posts
On August 12 2014 07:14 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 07:10 Kimb3r wrote:On August 12 2014 00:59 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 00:56 Kimb3r wrote:I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament. You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event. Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about? Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much. But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it. Show nested quote +Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
This is the kind of thing someone who hasnt worked a day in his life would say. $1800 for over a months worth of work and organization is dogshit, you're better off working at McDonalds, it's less stress.
Took the words right off my keyboard.
The amount of people in here who think that doing something for profit is something to look down upon is alarming. The sponsors contributed to Destiny because they felt the advertising provided by the stream time their brand was given was profitable to them.
Both the sponsors AND Destiny had no magical knowledge that this would be a profitable endeavor before it happened, so criticisms of his success seem so unfounded and juvenile.
I like the idea of a completely community-funded tournament with no sponsors or profit but you have to find someone willing to sacrifice the time and effort to run such a thing for free.
Great tournament, Destiny, I am happy it worked out so well and will seriously consider contributing to future tournaments
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On August 12 2014 00:03 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel. Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke. I take my comments very seriously, so I don't bullshit when I say something anywhere.
With that said, Jimmeh your comment is completely asinine.
You agree with Crot4le 100%, but you don't even understand what he said. At no point did he say that his compensation for $1,800 is "a bit of a joke".
Crot4le's coment was about if Steven decided to fund his tournaments solely through crowdfunding, then his take home should be a set fee and nothing more.
And yes Steven's compensation is worth it, because it is more than just 6 days of work and some emails/invites.
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$1800 is sweet fuck all for the work that went into the event. These things don't run (in a sustainable fashion) without the main organizers getting some form of payment. Time spent working on Destiny I was time that he wasn't streaming or doing other stuff to make a living.
There would be a right royal bun fight over what level of payment (fixed, fixed rate per/Hr, % etc) Destiny is entitled too if that were open for discussion. Irrespective of whether you think $1800 is too little, about right, or too much - Destiny was up front and all the donated money went to the event itself.
We've been talking about incentive for Kespa involvement etc so why not look at incentive for Destiny? Sure he gets brand Destiny advertising and is establishing himself in the event scene but not without a heap of work. If there is no tangible financial benefit for him how long could that go on for?
Great attitude from TB and the other casters, they can see that supporting and encouraging these types of (quality) events are super important to maintaining and hopefully building the SC2 scene.
Destiny, keep Kespa involvement on your radar bro. Seems their risk/benefit calculation went against you for the initial tournament but there are benefits for all parties if their players participate in future events. Bigger audience, hopefully more sponsorship interest and more flexibility around funding models etc.
Bring on Destiny II
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