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On August 13 2014 19:34 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 18:58 Penev wrote:On August 13 2014 18:22 oBlade wrote:On August 13 2014 17:24 Destiny wrote:On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote:Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you. On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote: TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings. This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast. You're welcome to your own opinion. If all of your respect for me dissipates because I disagree with the way KeSPA does things (which, by the way, isn't even close to a unique opinion, but a commonly shared one that's ran all the way back to BW days), I never really valued your respect much in the first place. I feel like in any other context it would be obvious why your reaction doesn't make sense. What if you had an idea for an app and collected money from people who wanted the app to be realized and also counted up 100 times as many people who would use the app once it was released but didn't pay you anything to get it off the ground. Then, wanting to deliver a better app, you walk into a Microsoft office and ask for some coders. Your argument after the fact is although these are trained coders with professional obligations there's no reason they can't earn a few bucks in their free time just sitting at a computer. Microsoft, who independently built a software empire before the operating system your app runs on was conceived, politely says they don't see the benefit for them in the unsolicited proposal you sent but might still be open in the future. (Which by the way would be really cool if for instance you had a cool head and went back to them with the results of what a success your app had been and started a mutual relationship instead of... posting private correspondence online.) Then you flame them saying they need to save their dying company from being overtaken by Apple gaining market share and call them selfish for focusing on Windows 8 instead of having people work for your project. Sigh, please not these kind of analogies.. Even if you're right; KeSPA shouldn't be like Microsoft (in your analogy). It should be up to the teams and/ or players to chose the tournaments they want to participate in. KeSPA should refrain to just advising on this matter, not actually DECIDE. Okay, suppose I granted you that KeSPA's model is wrong, and that they've mismanaged over a decade of e-sports, and that we should all be able to work together in a harmonious e-sports utopia. Which, while idealistic, would probably be awesome. What does it accomplish, whining and flaming publicly over a potential partner after just the first tournament? What is it supposed to accomplish? Does that help relations between Destiny's tournament and KeSPA? Is it leverage to make somebody in KeSPA want to fix something, because they're scared of being shut out of Destiny's tournaments in the future? Or is it just for attention? I agree with you on that. Destiny could've handled this better. He should've expected the response he got and, from a comment of his in this tread, he actually did expect it. Anyway; Maybe pointing out "KeSPA's model is wrong" in threads like these with a KeSPA represent present will help change their policies. KeSPA already improved a lot the last couple of years imo
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On August 13 2014 19:45 boxerfred wrote: Would you really work with someone who sets a private business conversation to the public because you declined his "offer"? Destiny kind of closed that door via publishing that emai IMO, but what counts is ofc not MO, but Kespa's O.
It depends on the content of the conversation. Since this is a case of "You shouldn't publish it, since everything is private" and not a case of "You absolutely mustn't publish it, since it's critical" it's not that big of a deal.
Possible interactions in the future: 1. I don't care about Destiny II and want to be a dick. When he asks "Please provide a NDA. Until then I won't talk to you" only then after the NDA is up (If he bothers) to tell him "Nope, we're not interested".
2. I don't care about Destiny II. When he asks "No; sorry we are not interested".
3. I care about Destiny II. I will ask the usual questions. We work together.
Basically - if I benefit from Destiny II I will talk to him. The end. Companies don't benefit from holding grudges, so it's either 2 or 3. Of course I will keep in mind that the mails were published so I will keep the fluff out and keep explanations to a minimum.
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On August 13 2014 20:04 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 19:45 boxerfred wrote: Would you really work with someone who sets a private business conversation to the public because you declined his "offer"? Or maybe you should take care of not writing 'professional' emails that could come back to bite you if they can be seen by more people than you thought. Which is pretty much a given for non-confidential conversations such as this. If you have a conversation with a company, any company, in any domain, and this company serves you bullshit, by all means put it up on public forums for everyone to see. That's the best anti-bullshit solution.Show nested quote +Destiny kind of closed that door via publishing that emai IMO, but what counts is ofc not MO, but Kespa's O. What counts is whatever Destiny wants to do next. KeSPA didn't stop the tournament from getting a much better viewership than expected. No reason to think this would be a major issue (or an issue at all) for the next one.
That is not the best anti-bullshit solution, that is the most efficient way of ensuring that those guys are never going to work with you again.
Also, Kespa didn't serve bullshit, they simply said that they do not think sending their players to Destiny's tournament has any use for them so they declined. If I'd send Chuddinater a PM saying "yo I can do an onlline tournament and your players would give me exposure" then I'm pretty sure he'd decline. If I'd put that to the public with the clear intention of showing how stupid I find that decision - well, I wouldn't hope for another meeting.
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I'm not a destiny stream watcher nor fan. But im a fan of transparency and it is really interesting to look into all that in detail and without restricted areas!
Not many ppl have the balls to be transparent. Because you make urself vulnerable to alot of comments like in this thread.
So in my opinion the sometimes harshful criticism "deceiving to gain more money" (lol, makes sense..) is really giving every other future tournament or w/e organizer/management a reason to at all costs NOT be transparent. And thats a bit sad.
Stating an email of a kespar manager (i guess without his agreement) is a bit too much tho, because you cant justify it with transparency if its personal chat with someone.
Kespa is a business organization and if they have the might to decide in which tourneys their players will play, then they will do so. And of course they want to get something out of it, its their job and personal interest to get something of value out of "their" players for themselves. If the players would be better of alone they would be independent. But since they are not, they seem to gain enough profit. (what kind of i dont even need to know since they should be able to judge that themselves ). Deciding to have the better marketing strategy for another organization that u can only see from the outside seems a bit off.
Of course everyone wants to see kespa players in big tournaments. But (at the moment) let those big tournaments let do the negotiations instead i'd say. Since they should have more value to offer to those kespa guys.
I have to say i was disappointed tho in the recent failed proceedings in this regard (dno if it was redbull or some tourney was declined the kespa players).
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@odem: are you referring to the WEC thing?
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On August 13 2014 19:29 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 19:20 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2014 19:17 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800? You, kindof. Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit. In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II. So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
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On August 13 2014 20:56 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 19:29 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 19:20 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2014 19:17 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800? You, kindof. Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit. In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II. So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
???
I don't even...
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On August 13 2014 19:34 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 18:58 Penev wrote:On August 13 2014 18:22 oBlade wrote:On August 13 2014 17:24 Destiny wrote:On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote:Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you. On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote: TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings. This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast. You're welcome to your own opinion. If all of your respect for me dissipates because I disagree with the way KeSPA does things (which, by the way, isn't even close to a unique opinion, but a commonly shared one that's ran all the way back to BW days), I never really valued your respect much in the first place. I feel like in any other context it would be obvious why your reaction doesn't make sense. What if you had an idea for an app and collected money from people who wanted the app to be realized and also counted up 100 times as many people who would use the app once it was released but didn't pay you anything to get it off the ground. Then, wanting to deliver a better app, you walk into a Microsoft office and ask for some coders. Your argument after the fact is although these are trained coders with professional obligations there's no reason they can't earn a few bucks in their free time just sitting at a computer. Microsoft, who independently built a software empire before the operating system your app runs on was conceived, politely says they don't see the benefit for them in the unsolicited proposal you sent but might still be open in the future. (Which by the way would be really cool if for instance you had a cool head and went back to them with the results of what a success your app had been and started a mutual relationship instead of... posting private correspondence online.) Then you flame them saying they need to save their dying company from being overtaken by Apple gaining market share and call them selfish for focusing on Windows 8 instead of having people work for your project. Sigh, please not these kind of analogies.. Even if you're right; KeSPA shouldn't be like Microsoft (in your analogy). It should be up to the teams and/ or players to chose the tournaments they want to participate in. KeSPA should refrain to just advising on this matter, not actually DECIDE. Okay, suppose I granted you that KeSPA's model is wrong, and that they've mismanaged over a decade of e-sports, and that we should all be able to work together in a harmonious e-sports utopia. Which, while idealistic, would probably be awesome. What does it accomplish, whining and flaming publicly over a potential partner after just the first tournament? What is it supposed to accomplish? Does that help relations between Destiny's tournament and KeSPA? Is it leverage to make somebody in KeSPA want to fix something, because they're scared of being shut out of Destiny's tournaments in the future? Or is it just for attention? It's like trying to do business with a Chinese company and when they deny you, you cry out: "can't you see that communism is wrong?!". Perhaps, but it's rather dubious to say it only after the fact, maybe you should have thought about it beforehand. Similar with kespa, if you don't agree with the way they manage things ("should be up to the players not kespa") then don't invite them to begin with, don't go complaining about it after the fact.
Sour grapes and all.
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On August 13 2014 20:56 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 19:29 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 19:20 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2014 19:17 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800? You, kindof. Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit. In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II. So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money. Please, it's not like producing tournaments is Destiny's livelihood. He is a streamer and personality and makes money in other ways, and this tournament benefited his reputation and future ability to generate income. I'm not saying he can't get a share of the money, especially for all the work he has done, but I think that since the money is donated to him by the community we can at least discuss whether "we" (didn't donate myself though) think the reimbursement is fair, and where we think the money should go to. If nothing else, it's valuable feedback for Destiny.
Also, I agree with what someone else said that keeping the sponsorship money is conceptually dubious, since I don't see 1. why Destiny should not be allowed to dip into the indiegogo funds for his reimbursement, and 2. why sponsorship money is categorically different from the fundraiser money so that the money needs separate destinations. It's at least worthwhile to discuss, I do think.
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Kespa is not your standard eSports entity, it's a branch of the governement, it has more power over their players than anybody else, including the players' teams.
On the matter at hand, Kespa has a history of sending players to tournament that ends up not paying afterwards, it is their job to make sure that doesn't happen again. If a Kespa allows a player to go to a tournament and the tournarment doesn't pay, the player WILL blame Kespa, it's their job to check those things, the player just has to focus on playing.
It's hard to understand because there is nothing of the sort outside of Korea.
Now that Destiny has ran his first tournament and everybody has been paid, Kespa will stop doubting and send players next time.
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On August 13 2014 21:14 Growiel wrote: Kespa is not your standard eSports entity, it's a branch of the governement, it has more power over their players than anybody else, including the players' teams.
On the matter at hand, Kespa has a history of sending players to tournament that ends up not paying afterwards, it is their job to make sure that doesn't happen again. If a Kespa allows a player to go to a tournament and the tournarment doesn't pay, the player WILL blame Kespa, it's their job to check those things, the player just has to focus on playing.
It's hard to understand because there is nothing of the sort outside of Korea.
Now that Destiny has ran his first tournament and everybody has been paid, Kespa will stop doubting and send players next time. "We" know what KeSPA is, we just not agree with some of their policies. Also; This was just an online tournament. There's no sending.
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You guys are asses Destiny woked his ass off to make a nice Tournament.It was an sucess and now he is defending his actions here on the Forum.You guys should be more grateful for what he has done and HOPE that he still wants to do a second or a third one after all this.
Destiny,you made a super job.
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Heard on stream at some point (might have been Unfiltered a couple of weeks ago) that it took approx. three weeks to get the tournament all set up. During that time there was - determining a schedule that works best for as many as possible - planning the format and contingencies - garnering interest from invited parties - gathering and recording relevant information from players, casters, artists, web dev, etc. - answering questions to relevant parties, keeping web dev in the loop
During the tournament he was responsible for 6 days of casting games
Post-event - paying everyone promptly - cutting up and publishing vods, making replays available - post-tournament wrap-up business such as this thread and the one on reddit detailing his thoughts on how things went
I'm sure there's even more shit, and let's just for the sake of the argument say that Destiny also paid himself 100 dollars per day of casting. That leaves him with 1200 for the three weeks prior and few days after and you're talking about 50-60 dollars per day to pull off what was arguably a rather well-executed event. Does that seem overboard? Is it really worth having a discussion about it being somehow unfair for the value received?
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On August 13 2014 21:02 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 20:56 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2014 19:29 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 19:20 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2014 19:17 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800? You, kindof. Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit. In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II. So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money. ??? I don't even... Crot4le, the reason people misunderstand you is because you never defined how much Destiny should have been compensated for his casting. Since his compensation wasn't part of the original funding/indiegogo, it makes sense for him to pocket the sponsorship money. However, in the future I agree with you that he should specify his own compensation in the crowdfunding campaign, and if he exceeds his funding goals (say 10K) he should not pocket the surplus but put that towards the next tournament.
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On August 13 2014 13:33 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote:
Money is fungible.
It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this.
I almost didn't bother to read the rest of your post (I kind of wish I didn't) because absolutely and ridiculously charged this language is, but I'll tackle it anyway. "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds" is entirely true. If I received 0 sponsors for this event, it wouldn't have mattered. Prize money and payments made to casters and workers were all 100% covered from crowd sourced funds. Had I received zero sponsors, I wouldn't have stolen money from the players or casters to pay myself. There is absolutely nothing false about my statement and I had announced sponsors weeks and weeks before this tournament ever went underway, even several times mentioning on various shows + my stream that "even if I don't reach my goal, I can supplement the crowd funding goal with the sponsorship money". Your math is cute, but you're acting like I'm taking my pay as a percentage of the overall raised money, which is absolutely not true, but rather more that I was scraping my pay off of the excess I was able to raise via sponsorships. I'm not taking any of the money that was raised extra from Indiegogo as I specifically stated that money would go towards the next tournament. There were plenty of different ways to word this post but you chose the absolute worst ways to do it, and you're spinning it out as though I've intentionally mislead and manipulated the community into feeding me more money, which is absolutely hilarious considering I am probably the single most transparent person in the entire community, except maybe TB. Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before. The insinuation that I would try to intentionally mislead the community and destroy ALL of the rapport I've built up over the years is fucking asinine, please. Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote: ESPA
You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you.
The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation.
They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it.
To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude.
Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests.
That's fine. I would stake money that I will exist in the Starcraft 2 community longer than KeSPA will, considering how SC2 is doing in Korea, if you want to go that route. I provided plenty of legit reasoning here concerning why I disagree with their decision, but if you want it to boil down to "oh theyre the big bois u gotta just let them do watever lol" then that's cool, too, but you have to realize you aren't making any legitimate arguments, you're essentially just saying "well theyr big n bad so dey can do wat dey want lol". The fact that you would even insinuate that I would pay KeSPA to have their players in my tournament is fucking hilarious, in its own right.
I was a little surprised by the tone of your post, but after continuing to read through and seeing the vitriol ITT it's making more sense.
Your response to 'money is fungible'
I recognize your desire not to misuse community funds; crowd sourcing is a new idea, and somebody manipulating it to their own gain would be damaging not only to the starcraft community but the idea of crowd sourcing in general.
Here's the thing; any way you slice it, you've profited from it. Sponsors paid your take-home? Great. But crowd funding generated that advertising opportunity which you've profited from.
My math is not trying to be cute, it's trying to be objective. It's saying "you had revenues from two sources, and expenses, and then profit".
Again, I don't see the problem with this. I'm OK with you making money for your efforts; everybody has to eat and you have unique skills and contacts that you leveraged to bring this community some awesome content. If people have a problem with this, then the solution may simply be to let them have a problem with it. If it's that big of a deal, you're crowd-sourcing efforts may suffer, and you will have to revise; I think the more likely outcome is that, if you're up-front and open with it, people will give few shits and future tournaments will be successfully funded.
Re: My use of the word manipulative
I agree with you in this. My language was not meant to be accusatory, but that word is just that.
I stand by my first use of the word; I said at best incorrect, at worst manipulative, and I think it's clear that you should pretty quickly be given any benefit of doubt given your efforts. My second use was unnecessary, and I apologize. A better way to make my point would be to have said "I don't think this meets your goal and the communities desire for fair and transparent reporting".
My point w/r/t KESPA
My point isn't that you have to play their ball game. My point is that you need to be empathetic (not sympathetic, just empathetic) to their goals and desires if you want to have a business relationship with them.
Paying KESPA
I don't understand what the big deal would be about paying them a fee?
Take the human element out of it temporarily. Their players are their assets, just as your contacts efforts and skillset are your own; any organization needs to leverage it's assets to generate revenue so as to match expenditures and reach goals (regardless of profit, altruistic, and otherwise).
Would it be different if they requested free advertising for their sponsors or brand? This is no different.
EDIT: Revised wording of first sentence.
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On August 13 2014 21:14 Growiel wrote: Now that Destiny has ran his first tournament and everybody has been paid, Kespa will stop doubting and send players next time.
yes, but his priority would be giving invitations to the teams that helped him in the first edition. For example he wouldn't trade CMSorm, TeamLiquid or Acer's spots for some b-teamers from KeSPA. The business model is still unclear. So by not having players playing from Korea, allows NA-friendly broadcasting schedule with no competing streams GSL, KeSPA team league.... Furthermore, since the KeSPA guy implied that they don't care about visibility on foreign scene, that they can live without the peanuts of small tournaments... then why would anyone go out of his way to invite their players, when he can keep up good viewers without them?
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On August 13 2014 22:06 Grovbolle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 21:02 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 20:56 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2014 19:29 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 19:20 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2014 19:17 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800? You, kindof. Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit. In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II. So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money. ??? I don't even... Crot4le, the reason people misunderstand you is because you never defined how much Destiny should have been compensated for his casting. Since his compensation wasn't part of the original funding/indiegogo, it makes sense for him to pocket the sponsorship money. However, in the future I agree with you that he should specify his own compensation in the crowdfunding campaign, and if he exceeds his funding goals (say 10K) he should not pocket the surplus but put that towards the next tournament.
That's exactly what I mean, I guess I should learn to be more clearer.
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On August 13 2014 21:20 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 21:14 Growiel wrote: Kespa is not your standard eSports entity, it's a branch of the governement, it has more power over their players than anybody else, including the players' teams.
On the matter at hand, Kespa has a history of sending players to tournament that ends up not paying afterwards, it is their job to make sure that doesn't happen again. If a Kespa allows a player to go to a tournament and the tournarment doesn't pay, the player WILL blame Kespa, it's their job to check those things, the player just has to focus on playing.
It's hard to understand because there is nothing of the sort outside of Korea.
Now that Destiny has ran his first tournament and everybody has been paid, Kespa will stop doubting and send players next time. "We" know what KeSPA is, we just not agree with some of their policies. Also; This was just an online tournament. There's no sending. Also: due to the crowdfunding, there was no doubt that the prize money was there. What more would you expect? A written letter of intent where Destiny promises to pay the players from the money he already raised?
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On August 13 2014 23:29 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 22:06 Grovbolle wrote:On August 13 2014 21:02 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 20:56 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2014 19:29 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 19:20 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2014 19:17 Crot4le wrote:On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800? You, kindof. Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit. In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II. So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money. ??? I don't even... Crot4le, the reason people misunderstand you is because you never defined how much Destiny should have been compensated for his casting. Since his compensation wasn't part of the original funding/indiegogo, it makes sense for him to pocket the sponsorship money. However, in the future I agree with you that he should specify his own compensation in the crowdfunding campaign, and if he exceeds his funding goals (say 10K) he should not pocket the surplus but put that towards the next tournament. That's exactly what I mean, I guess I should learn to be more clearer.
Wait, Destiny kept the money from the sponsorships? I thought this tournament was a "from the community for the community" experiment and that any money made from it would flow to the next few tournaments of which Destiny hoped to make some surplus money. :o
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On August 13 2014 16:39 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 15:22 Chuddinater wrote: I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all. Chud if you had managed to keep this level of professionalism in your original email, all the KeSPA-related controversy in this thread never would have happened. This type of thing negatively impacts how KeSPA is viewed outside of Korea, which is not in anyone's interest, and you are partly to blame for that. I don't know how much you care, but it doesn't help you at all to have responded using the language that you did. Simply stating "we are not interested in sending players at this time, but we would consider involvement in your tournaments in the future" with no reason would have sufficed (reasons would have helped), and tbh I don't care what Destiny says about him not caring about the language used, truth is you came off as a total dick, it pissed him off, and the situation is what it is today. This would have still been a truthful response and accomplished a lot more than what you did. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been lowered by following this thread. Of course, given how you responded in the first place, you probably don't care.
This is ridiculous. If you can't see how professional Chuddinator has been, and you can't see the positives of his interaction not only with Destiny, but with the Teamliquid community, you are not the sort of person whose lowered opinions matter at all. You have a bias and you have stuck to it despite all evidence being to the contrary. Destiny is not debating the professionalism of Chuddinator, he is debating the role of KeSPA in providing access to tournaments, as well as presenting his view of their obligations to the SC2 scene. In fact, the least professional action was for Destiny to share the email (not saying that anti-professional is bad, it's just that the act of sharing an email tends to inflame a situation). It is due to Chuddinator, particularly, that this hasn't inflamed the situation.
We have a KeSPA representative presenting fair, logical points of view on a western forum. Can you appreciate this? Were you around when many of KeSPA's more controversial decisions (in Brood War particularly) were not addressed by KeSPA at all? This situation, in comparison, is not at all controversial, and yet we still receive this response. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been raised by following this thread.
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