Ok guys, after enjoying Thorin's work for the past few years now and the recent thread about it here in the general sc2 forum, i decided to open a thread about his video series "Thorin's Thoughts". The following tweet suggests he will do more starcraft content in the future, so i think it's valuable to have a dedicated thread about this series.
I will collect his work and post the new videos in this thread so people can discuss his content. If you don't know him, here is a video which should help you out
This is really great. I just watched his video about silver surfers and I'm now watching the one about WCS players. Hes very insightful and I'm really glad hes getting into making SC2 vidgets.
Thanks for making the thread, it saves me a lot of work going through his YT channel.
Keep in mind that while some may have strong views on Thorin's past statements and the views he has shared on issues not related to esports, please keep those out of this thread. If you want to discuss Thorin's content this is the thread. If you want to discuss his views, you're better of on Reddit.
I just watched his esports psychology video and while it doesn't really explain much new, i wonder how widespread it really is in sc2 to have a psychologist. Do Kespa teams have someone who helps their players mentally? I mean sure, the older players and coaches, but that isn't really the same imo. I can see that the money isn't really there in the foreign scene to get help like that, but the Kespa teams?
On March 05 2015 08:03 Zealously wrote: Keep in mind that while some may have strong views on Thorin's past statements and the views he has shared on issues not related to esports, please keep those out of this thread. If you want to discuss Thorin's content this is the thread. If you want to discuss his views, you're better of on Reddit.
I'd assert that it's very disingenuous to ask people to discuss content including a series titled "Thorin's Thoughts" without discussing Thorin's views since those are exactly what that part of his content is. His thoughts, opinions, and views.
Anyway, on the topic of these vids, I think a soundbyte from one of them is the clearest description of the value of Thorin's "thoughts"
On March 06 2015 05:11 varsovie wrote: I don't see the point of this thread, there's alreaDY ONE ABOUT HIS sc2/bw videos on a SC focused forum....
The Thorinvasion is upon us ! Nah seriously I think this thread has been made precisely to avoid having a new thread created each time Thorin makes a new video, which is not a bad idea in itself tbh.
On March 06 2015 05:11 varsovie wrote: I don't see the point of this thread, there's alreaDY ONE ABOUT HIS sc2/bw videos on a SC focused forum....
This is a thread which will be updated with all his new videos. (like we had for other shows as well). People who are interested can discuss his content here.
On March 05 2015 08:03 Zealously wrote: Keep in mind that while some may have strong views on Thorin's past statements and the views he has shared on issues not related to esports, please keep those out of this thread. If you want to discuss Thorin's content this is the thread. If you want to discuss his views, you're better of on Reddit.
I'd assert that it's very disingenuous to ask people to discuss content including a series titled "Thorin's Thoughts" without discussing Thorin's views since those are exactly what that part of his content is. His thoughts, opinions, and views.
Anyway, on the topic of these vids, I think a soundbyte from one of them is the clearest description of the value of Thorin's "thoughts"
specifically the part from 0:14 onwards.
It's more about not to start a silly "what do you think about thorin personally" debate here. If you don't like his videos you can ignore it, but maybe some people actually watch them and wanna discuss it somewhere.
On March 05 2015 08:03 Zealously wrote: Keep in mind that while some may have strong views on Thorin's past statements and the views he has shared on issues not related to esports, please keep those out of this thread. If you want to discuss Thorin's content this is the thread. If you want to discuss his views, you're better of on Reddit.
I'd assert that it's very disingenuous to ask people to discuss content including a series titled "Thorin's Thoughts" without discussing Thorin's views since those are exactly what that part of his content is. His thoughts, opinions, and views.
Anyway, on the topic of these vids, I think a soundbyte from one of them is the clearest description of the value of Thorin's "thoughts"
I liked Thorin's Reflection interviews, he really had interesting pieces with Jaedong and Naniwa (that one isn't mentioned in the OP).
Not sure if this is Thorin-bashing or not but I don't like him cursing and being aggressive when presenting his thoughts. I'm curious that he hasn't weeded out that behavior since it doesn't really paint a professional picture about his content. Just my two cents.
His newest video might be the worst so far. He just made this video cause he read too much reddit i guess (and didn't agree with the "predictions" about IEM..^^) I mean his statements are pretty trivial here, the funny part is that we can notice this "called it" here a lot too, but tbh he makes a big deal out of it for no reason, it's just about the fun sometimes.^^
On March 10 2015 19:12 SC2Toastie wrote: Is it wrong to watch these videos because I enjoy hearing his silly statements?
It sort of gives the same kick as watching Avilo whine ^_^
You keep mentioning it But let's be real, he has a lot of viewers from other scenes which didn't watch esports for a long time (cause they are young). It isn't that bad to give them some background info / train of thought. This alone might make some of his statements seem very trivial, but oftentimes he at least backs it up with historical context, which makes it kinda interesting again
I just don't think drawing attention to such a personality is the right thing to do. I suppose there's nobody else currently filling that part in the void...
I like hearing of the history of various eSport titles, especially as somebody who has only really followed Starcraft it's pretty illuminating. Get to hear about scandals and issues in other titles but don't have to actually follow them or play them which suits me fine
Toastie you don't like Thorin, message received
I wish other people would do this kind of content more regularly. Redeye I believe would do a fantastic job in something like the history of CS and the FPS scene for example, but he's pretty damn busy with ESL
On March 10 2015 19:47 SC2Toastie wrote: I just don't think drawing attention to such a personality is the right thing to do. I suppose there's nobody else currently filling that part in the void...
well he does produce high quality content, I don't see why he should get attention.
His newest video might be the worst so far. He just made this video cause he read too much reddit i guess (and didn't agree with the "predictions" about IEM..^^) I mean his statements are pretty trivial here, the funny part is that we can notice this "called it" here a lot too, but tbh he makes a big deal out of it for no reason, it's just about the fun sometimes.^^
And people call this quality content? I'm sorry, I never listened to one of Thorin's video in its entirety before, I listened to two of them for the first 15 minutes, but listened to this one entirely. This is absurd and shameful. This is someone who clearly has little to no knowledge and competence about what he's talking about and who uses long sentences and arguments, as well as rude language, to cover the void of his words, without even realizing that he's contradicting himself in the spawn of fifteen minutes. This is someone who acts just like the average reddit user he criticizes so much, the only difference being that he's on camera and have the illusion of being important and widely listened.
His newest video might be the worst so far. He just made this video cause he read too much reddit i guess (and didn't agree with the "predictions" about IEM..^^) I mean his statements are pretty trivial here, the funny part is that we can notice this "called it" here a lot too, but tbh he makes a big deal out of it for no reason, it's just about the fun sometimes.^^
And people call this quality content? I'm sorry, I never listened to one of Thorin's video in its entirety before, I listened to two of them for the first 15 minutes, but listened to this one entirely. This is absurd and shameful. This is someone who clearly has little to no knowledge and competence about what he's talking about and who uses long sentences and arguments, as well as rude language, to cover the void of his words, without even realizing that he's contradicting himself in the spawn of fifteen minutes. This is someone who acts just like the average reddit user he criticizes so much, the only difference being that he's on camera and have the illusion of being important and widely listened.
Thooorin strength is history, I suggest you watch one of his "Who is *insert playername* " or one of his refelections show.
His newest video might be the worst so far. He just made this video cause he read too much reddit i guess (and didn't agree with the "predictions" about IEM..^^) I mean his statements are pretty trivial here, the funny part is that we can notice this "called it" here a lot too, but tbh he makes a big deal out of it for no reason, it's just about the fun sometimes.^^
And people call this quality content? I'm sorry, I never listened to one of Thorin's video in its entirety before, I listened to two of them for the first 15 minutes, but listened to this one entirely. This is absurd and shameful. This is someone who clearly has little to no knowledge and competence about what he's talking about and who uses long sentences and arguments, as well as rude language, to cover the void of his words, without even realizing that he's contradicting himself in the spawn of fifteen minutes. This is someone who acts just like the average reddit user he criticizes so much, the only difference being that he's on camera and have the illusion of being important and widely listened.
It doesn't surprise me that you watch the video which i called the worst one so far and use it as basis Yes this video was pretty meh, it is extremely trivial what he has to say in it (analysis > no analysis), but i don't agree with your general statements. But cause you went full "thorin hate", i wanna see some actual examples for this:
This is someone who clearly has little to no knowledge and competence about what he's talking about and who uses long sentences and arguments, as well as rude language, to cover the void of his words, without even realizing that he's contradicting himself in the spawn of fifteen minutes
TBH this whole quote makes you look bad, so he has clearly no competence about what he's talking about? Pls enlighten me how you came to that conclusion. He uses rude language? So what? It isn't like he says "fuck" at the end of every sentence, in fact i would argue Thorin isn't that bad regarding his use of language at all. But sure, pls point it out for me, i really am curious.
His newest video might be the worst so far. He just made this video cause he read too much reddit i guess (and didn't agree with the "predictions" about IEM..^^) I mean his statements are pretty trivial here, the funny part is that we can notice this "called it" here a lot too, but tbh he makes a big deal out of it for no reason, it's just about the fun sometimes.^^
And people call this quality content? I'm sorry, I never listened to one of Thorin's video in its entirety before, I listened to two of them for the first 15 minutes, but listened to this one entirely. This is absurd and shameful. This is someone who clearly has little to no knowledge and competence about what he's talking about and who uses long sentences and arguments, as well as rude language, to cover the void of his words, without even realizing that he's contradicting himself in the spawn of fifteen minutes. This is someone who acts just like the average reddit user he criticizes so much, the only difference being that he's on camera and have the illusion of being important and widely listened.
It doesn't surprise me that you watch the video which i called the worst one so far and use it as basis Yes this video was pretty meh, it is extremely trivial what he has to say in it (analysis > no analysis), but i don't agree with your general statements. But cause you went full "thorin hate", i wanna see some actual examples for this:
This is someone who clearly has little to no knowledge and competence about what he's talking about and who uses long sentences and arguments, as well as rude language, to cover the void of his words, without even realizing that he's contradicting himself in the spawn of fifteen minutes
TBH this whole quote makes you look bad, so he has clearly no competence about what he's talking about? Pls enlighten me how you came to that conclusion. He uses rude language? So what? It isn't like he says "fuck" at the end of every sentence, in fact i would argue Thorin isn't that bad regarding his use of language at all. But sure, pls point it out for me, i really am curious.
With great pleasure. First part of the video : until ~2:30. Thorin defines what "predictions" is. I'm OK with that. Then he goes to criticize the random reddit/forum warrior. What's the point? Are they doing harm to the scene or something? Is making some predictions and then bragging about them being right worse than calling players "piece of shit" on twitter? But well, let's ignore that. Then Thorin makes the guess that people going full "I called it" want recognition and credit, while they don't deserve any because they didn't give a fully explained analysis of why they predict team X to win. This is heavily questionable in two ways : first nothing indicates that people who try to predict how a match will go want recognition and credit, most of them are either saying that their favorite player/team will win ; second, most people probably don't have the time to write an essay displaying their knowledge of the game each time a match is played.
Second part : until ~6:00 Thorin does an absurd analogy. His analogy implies that the guy who watches SC2/CSGO/Dota2/etc knows as much about the game he's watching than his imaginary friend knows about tornados, that is, nothing. This is downright absurd : most people who watch a game and bother to comment it on forums or reddit played it at least once, more likely play it on a regular or semi-regular basis, and watch games on a regular basis. They might not have a pro-player-level knowledge of the game, but someone who says "MMA will win this match" did NOT use pure randomness, unlike in Thorin's absurd analogy. Then he goes onto a weird assumption that not giving a reasoning = not having a reasoning, which is, once again absurd. If we had to explain in details the reasoning behind every single decisions of our lives as important as calling a match... the world would be noisy, I guess? I'll ignore the part on psionic powers and superstition, which doesn't add much to the argument.
Third part : until ~9:00 Thorin talks about the "history of divination". Oh my. He explains that divination is not about reading the future by pure intuition (too bad, it's actually partly that), but that it is a way of explaining the universe with a small model of the universe, to which you refer to think about what will happen ; by dwelling deep into your subconsciousness and instinctiveness (oh wait didn't he say like one minute ago that divination was not about instinct? Yeah, quality content mate) ; but that this model (notice his use of "microcosm" to make it sound more complicated and intellectual while "model" would be way, way more appropriate) is totally subjective and personal, and is about what each person reads of the events of the real world (this last part is totally correct btw, when someone does/says something it is never without reasoning, it is by using his/her own vision of the world). Now, that is the point where I want to say : Grats. In 9 minutes, Thorin said that (1) people who are just saying "Team X will win this" have no reasoning but chose according to pure randomness (darts analogy), which implies that they deserve no credits for calling something ; and that (2) when people try to predict the future, they do it according to their own perception of the world, according to their own world, if you'll allow me the expression, which implies that it is NOT totally random (not random at all, in fact), and which implies too that, since their call wasn't random, they deserve at least some credit. See how these two elements contradict themselves almost perfectly?
Fourth part : until the end He proceeds to explain that "divination"-like way of thinking is what "actual analysis in eSports is like". So, the people he criticized at the beginning are doing actual analysis, they just aren't putting it down on paper... Do you really want people who aren't payed to be eSports analysts to explain in details their thought process? The end of the video is Thorin repeating what he said before with examples while getting calmly madder and madder and ending up doing another blatantly absurd analogy, adding numerous repetitions of "fucking" and "fuckers" because he's realizing either that it will please his fanbase or that his whole argument is weak and ridiculous and he tries to cover this.
Well, all in all Thorin is asking random netizens to act like payed analysts, and considers that their reasoning is non-existent because it isn't clearly expressed. He seems also obsessed with the idea of said netizens getting "credit" while they get none, let's be real lol. Additionally he spices it up with absurd examples and analogies and contradicts himself. The fact that he doesn't consider right away what he says in my third part (that is, that one always uses one's perception of the world to take decisions) shows little to no understanding and knowledge of anything close to human psychology and behavior (which means that, in that particular video, he has clearly no competency on what he's talking about). So yeah, I'll give you that he isn't overly rude in this particular video (although numerous tweets and parts of other vids I've grabbed tend to prove that he is often pretty rude), but apart from that I stand my ground :
This is absurd and shameful. This is someone who clearly has little to no knowledge and competence about what he's talking about and who uses long sentences and arguments, as well as rude language, to cover the void of his words, without even realizing that he's contradicting himself in the spawn of fifteen minutes. This is someone who acts just like the average reddit user he criticizes so much, the only difference being that he's on camera and have the illusion of being important and widely listened.
edit : now if you want me to nuance my words a bit, I'm not saying that all he's done is bad and low-quality. But this video made me jump out of my mind, because I have a hard time considering how is some dude talking about a useless topic (like who cares about the guys who go "I called it" on the internet wtf) and who contradicts himself in nine minutes "quality content".
This is heavily questionable in two ways : first nothing indicates that people who try to predict how a match will go want recognition and credit, most of them are either saying that their favorite player/team will win ; second, most people probably don't have the time to write an essay displaying their knowledge of the game each time a match is played.
Meh, obviously you want recognition, otherwise you simply wouldn't post it. We can see it even on TL the whole time, someone plays, we all "predict" who is going to win it and more often that not at the end someone will quote himself when he was right. I am not sure what else people would want by posting their opinions? At best case you add actual knowledge and an interesting discussion can start, at "worst" case you simply "call it" and all you do is getting your opinion out there for people to see it. I think he is totally right that all you do there is to want recognition. I don't think this is bad (which is why i think this video is kinda pointless too, but whatever)
Thorin does an absurd analogy. His analogy implies that the guy who watches SC2/CSGO/Dota2/etc knows as much about the game he's watching than his imaginary friend knows about tornados, that is, nothing. This is downright absurd : most people who watch a game and bother to comment it on forums or reddit played it at least once, more likely play it on a regular or semi-regular basis, and watch games on a regular basis. They might not have a pro-player-level knowledge of the game, but someone who says "MMA will win this match" did NOT use pure randomness, unlike in Thorin's absurd analogy. Then he goes onto a weird assumption that not giving a reasoning = not having a reasoning, which is, once again absurd. If we had to explain in details the reasoning behind every single decisions of our lives as important as calling a match... the world would be noisy, I guess?
One point is that as long as you don't add any reasoning it is literally impossible for other people to value your knowledge, which makes it random. This only isn't the case if you know each other, i still would value the "calls" of Apollo cause i know he is knowledgeable about the subject. (or forum users which i rate highly). Sure, his analogy is hyperobole, but usually i think arguing with these technics makes the point more clear and understandable, AND it adds humor as well (which is important for his audience too)
Thorin talks about the "history of divination". Oh my. He explains that divination is not about reading the future by pure intuition (too bad, it's actually partly that), but that it is a way of explaining the universe with a small model of the universe, to which you refer to think about what will happen ; by dwelling deep into your subconsciousness and instinctiveness (oh wait didn't he say like one minute ago that divination was not about instinct? Yeah, quality content mate) ; but that this model (notice his use of "microcosm" to make it sound more complicated and intellectual while "model" would be way, way more appropriate) is totally subjective and personal, and is about what each person reads of the events of the real world (this last part is totally correct btw, when someone does/says something it is never without reasoning, it is by using his/her own vision of the world). Now, that is the point where I want to say : Grats. In 9 minutes, Thorin said that (1) people who are just saying "Team X will win this" have no reasoning but chose according to pure randomness (darts analogy), which implies that they deserve no credits for calling something ; and that (2) when people try to predict the future, they do it according to their own perception of the world, according to their own world, if you'll allow me the expression, which implies that it is NOT totally random (not random at all, in fact), and which implies too that, since their call wasn't random, they deserve at least some credit. See how these two elements contradict themselves almost perfectly?
He is saying that divination is no simple magic trick, there is no "supernatural power" which will feed information to you. In fact you need some skills to be able to use it properly. Most people don't have these skills though. SO yeah i interpreted this section completely different
Well, all in all Thorin is asking random netizens to act like payed analysts, and considers that their reasoning is non-existent because it isn't clearly expressed. He seems also obsessed with the idea of said netizens getting "credit" while they get none, let's be real lol. Additionally he spices it up with absurd examples and analogies, contradicts himself. The fact that he doesn't consider right away what he says in my third part (that is, that one always uses one's perception of the world to take decisions) shows little to no understanding and knowledge of anything close to human psychology and behavior (which means that, in that particular video, he has clearly no competency on what he's talking about). So yeah, I'll give you that he isn't overly rude in this particular video (although numerous tweets and parts of other vids I've grabbed tend to prove that he is often pretty rude), but apart from that I stand my ground
I think his whole point is: As long as you have no reasoning for your predictions there is no way it will lead to anything interesting. He probably was annoyed by some reddit/twitter users who were obnoxious about things, so yeah i agree that this video was pretty mediocre. I don't agree with a lot of what you were saying here though (which is fine i guess) One thing to note: Notice how this series is called "Thorin's thoughts" ? I think the name alone shows pretty well that not every video will actually be important/prepared , he uses it as a simple way of expressing his thoughts on different subjects, it's only natural that not everything will be worth a watch. Due to less structure than for example his "reflection" videos it is hardly surprising that it isn't in depth about every single part he mentions, that there even may be some errors in it (not sure if i agree with you about this video though), and that these videos typically are too long for what the actual content is. I personally can live with it cause i still think he usually at least gives some food for thought and/or some historical context. Other people might look at it differently and expect the best content they have ever seen (maybe cause they don't like him, so he needs to surpass the usual "good content" with everything he does, that's only my interpretation though )
^I guess we disagree then d: (And to me the use of a hyperbolic analogy is not an "arguing technic" but something that makes one's point straight-up invalid, unless you make explicit the fact that it was hyperbolic)
On March 05 2015 08:03 Zealously wrote: Keep in mind that while some may have strong views on Thorin's past statements and the views he has shared on issues not related to esports, please keep those out of this thread. If you want to discuss Thorin's content this is the thread. If you want to discuss his views, you're better of on Reddit.
I'd assert that it's very disingenuous to ask people to discuss content including a series titled "Thorin's Thoughts" without discussing Thorin's views since those are exactly what that part of his content is. His thoughts, opinions, and views.
Anyway, on the topic of these vids, I think a soundbyte from one of them is the clearest description of the value of Thorin's "thoughts"
specifically the part from 0:14 onwards.
Ignore the shittalking
Then people would have to ignore everything he says...
On March 05 2015 08:03 Zealously wrote: Keep in mind that while some may have strong views on Thorin's past statements and the views he has shared on issues not related to esports, please keep those out of this thread. If you want to discuss Thorin's content this is the thread. If you want to discuss his views, you're better of on Reddit.
I'd assert that it's very disingenuous to ask people to discuss content including a series titled "Thorin's Thoughts" without discussing Thorin's views since those are exactly what that part of his content is. His thoughts, opinions, and views.
Anyway, on the topic of these vids, I think a soundbyte from one of them is the clearest description of the value of Thorin's "thoughts"
specifically the part from 0:14 onwards.
Ignore the shittalking
Then people would have to ignore everything he says...
On March 05 2015 08:03 Zealously wrote: Keep in mind that while some may have strong views on Thorin's past statements and the views he has shared on issues not related to esports, please keep those out of this thread. If you want to discuss Thorin's content this is the thread. If you want to discuss his views, you're better of on Reddit.
I'd assert that it's very disingenuous to ask people to discuss content including a series titled "Thorin's Thoughts" without discussing Thorin's views since those are exactly what that part of his content is. His thoughts, opinions, and views.
Anyway, on the topic of these vids, I think a soundbyte from one of them is the clearest description of the value of Thorin's "thoughts"
specifically the part from 0:14 onwards.
Ignore the shittalking
Then people would have to ignore everything he says...
If they utterly fail at filtering, then i suppose they would be better off doing that