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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/16717571675
Thank you everyone for helping us to playtest in the balance test map. We’re seeing a lot of support for this balance change and we’d really love to go ahead with the Swarm Host redesign patch after Season 1 ends. With only a small amount of high-level feedback and playtesting to draw from, we have some concerns that it may not be enough due to the scale of this change. Given what we have however, here are our current thoughts and plans:
We intend to publish this balance test patch around the end of Season 1/start of Season 2 timeframe. We’ll closely watch how the changes affect the live game, and react with a follow up balance patch if necessary.
We like the direction of the latest balance test map, and the only change we’d like to make to the next balance test map is:
Tempest deal +14 massive damage to air.
We felt that by removing damage to massive, Tempests simply became too weak versus Colossi. We wanted to make a damage change to Tempests that would severely change how they interact versus Brood Lords, while less-severely affecting their relationship against Colossi. Changing their massive bonus to +14 felt like a good number because it doubles the number of shots Tempests take to kill Brood Lords, while changing the relationship vs. Colossi by about 67%. Assuming the next round of balance test map testing goes well, we’d like to finalize the changes to a patch in early April. So, in total, the changes we’d be looking at for that patch are:
The Swarm Host redesign The Point Defense Drone nerf The Tempest +massive damage nerf The Viper’s Blinding Cloud buff
Because we’re in the middle of March already, and we really need to lock down the changes for the next patch soon, this will officially be the final stage of this balance test map. It would follow then, that this is everyone’s last chance to provide feedback before a balance patch would be implemented. Judging from how things have been going with this round of balance testing, we don’t expect to fully iron out the details before we release the patch. However, we do think that it’s important to push out these changes in order to prevent the dragged out Swarm Host games that we’ve seen in WCS games, even if the current state of good balance breaks a little bit for a temporary duration. Rest assured that we will do our best to carefully watch, analyze, and evaluate the situation quickly if further adjustments are needed after the next patch goes out. Thank you as always for your help.
Edit: Thanks to Existor for the banner!
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Glad they decided not to remove Tempests from the game, even though' it's a boring unit. This is as middle of the road as you can get, can't see anyone being very upset by this. Looking forward to it.
*middle of the road, not middle of the Roach.. Lol.. srsly, can't get roaches out of my head.
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your Country52796 Posts
Poll: Opinion on the Tempest change?Approve (137) 64% Disapprove (48) 22% Neutral/Don't care (29) 14% 214 total votes Your vote: Opinion on the Tempest change? (Vote): Approve (Vote): Disapprove (Vote): Neutral/Don't care
Good change I think. Too bad it will be removed in LotV
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Nice. I was a little worried that without the Tempest +massive, we would have gone back to the WoL-style "who has more collosi" wars in PvP
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The current change to tempests will still mean a switch back to that colossus wars meta. Ultimately the colossus is just a 'broken' unit, especially in pvp. The fact that it needs an extremely strong hardcounter in the form of the tempest (which will not be enough anymore with this patch), just shows a bigger problem. The problem is with the colossus, not the tempest.
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I like them putting 50% damage on the Tempest. More emphasis on the range and positional aspects in PvP. Don't proclaim PvP is dead before playing it plz
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Bisutopia19035 Posts
Why nerf PDD without making the raven any better? I am really disappointed ravens aren't playing a bigger role the way science vessels did for SC1. So much potential in the raven and I love it as a unit. Anything to get it in the game would be great. It looks like they forgot the raven in LoTV too.
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4713 Posts
Its a bad idea for them to release the SH redesign in zerg's current state. Without SH play to anchor the race zerg will become pitifully weak late game vs both mech and protoss.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On March 20 2015 03:11 Destructicon wrote: Its a bad idea for them to release the SH redesign in zerg's current state. Without SH play to anchor the race zerg will become pitifully weak late game vs both mech and protoss.
Life is the only player that wins anyway and he doesn't use Swarm Hosts much
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On March 20 2015 03:11 Destructicon wrote: Its a bad idea for them to release the SH redesign in zerg's current state. Without SH play to anchor the race zerg will become pitifully weak late game vs both mech and protoss.
au revoir firecake
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On March 20 2015 03:11 BisuDagger wrote:Why nerf PDD without making the raven any better? I am really disappointed ravens aren't playing a bigger role the way science vessels did for SC1. So much potential in the raven and I love it as a unit. Anything to get it in the game would be great. It looks like they forgot the raven in LoTV too.
cause the science vessel is coming back, mark my words.
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On March 20 2015 03:13 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:11 Destructicon wrote: Its a bad idea for them to release the SH redesign in zerg's current state. Without SH play to anchor the race zerg will become pitifully weak late game vs both mech and protoss. Life is the only player that wins anyway and he doesn't use Swarm Hosts much Well he used them against mech, but I reckon he's willing to switch to roach/hydra/viper against that. Or maybe we're wrong and the new SH is broken against mech and absolutely ridiculous .
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On March 20 2015 03:13 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:11 Destructicon wrote: Its a bad idea for them to release the SH redesign in zerg's current state. Without SH play to anchor the race zerg will become pitifully weak late game vs both mech and protoss. Life is the only player that wins anyway and he doesn't use Swarm Hosts much As long as they don´t nerf lings nothing changes for zerg. Life wins the rest try.
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On March 20 2015 03:15 Topin wrote: PDD nerf is just too big Personally I'm of the opinion that they need to adjust zerg late-game air instead. It's been established that corrupters just don't hold up time and time again, I don't see why they need to dance around that fact instead of addressing it directly.
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4713 Posts
On March 20 2015 03:14 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:11 Destructicon wrote: Its a bad idea for them to release the SH redesign in zerg's current state. Without SH play to anchor the race zerg will become pitifully weak late game vs both mech and protoss. au revoir firecake
For the record, I don't like SH, like at all. I firmly believe that free units concept is broken in SC2's current design. But I'm also aware that currently its the only thing that sort of held zerg together against the strongest late game deathballs. Without a suitable replacement I don't think it will be long until you see the results. And at the moment this patch just delivers a SH redesign, and no compensation.
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About time Ravens got a nerf in some form, they're really stupid to face when massed up.
I can't say much about the Tempest change because I can't remember the last time I was actually able to get a second Nexus in PvP, let alone up to that tech :<
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Please just get rid of idiotic spell in PDD and decrease raven cost and buff it's speed or sth. I wish they just made them more accessible for Terran while not stupid at the same time. No idea how to make SH a proper unit without practically removing it though.
Glad they want to make brood lords more viable.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36678 Posts
Give us something for Terran... :/
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Still praying to all the old gods for widow mine nerf~~
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On March 20 2015 03:51 OsaX Nymloth wrote: Still praying to all the old gods for widow mine nerf~~ InCa won't answer your prayers, his DTs don't care about flimsy mines .
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id rather them take the "massive" tag from brood lords tbh, seems a more elegant way to to help them vs tempests. but late game zerg is gonna be tough b/c of how supply inefficient zerg are in late game, its why mass static D with infestor brood lords was great in WoL. the "artificial supply" of IT/broodlings and static D is the only thing that can allow zerg to compete at maxed out armies, and its no different now but just with free locusts instead of infested marines.
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On March 20 2015 03:11 BisuDagger wrote:Why nerf PDD without making the raven any better? I am really disappointed ravens aren't playing a bigger role the way science vessels did for SC1. So much potential in the raven and I love it as a unit. Anything to get it in the game would be great. It looks like they forgot the raven in LoTV too. Because while the Science Vessel was a cool support unit, the Raven is a badly designed support unit that can be massed without much drawbacks, which is absurd for a support unit.
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Bot edit.
User was banned for this post.
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The SH change going live is just so scary as a zerg player, while there are some other options than SH against mech and toss they are weaker in general and there is already a lack of zerg players in tournaments lately (aside from Life). PDD nerf might be a little harsh but Terran's can't honestly think a massive reduction in the duration isn't necessary especially with a SH nerf.
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On March 20 2015 04:03 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:11 BisuDagger wrote:Why nerf PDD without making the raven any better? I am really disappointed ravens aren't playing a bigger role the way science vessels did for SC1. So much potential in the raven and I love it as a unit. Anything to get it in the game would be great. It looks like they forgot the raven in LoTV too. Because while the Science Vessel was a cool support unit, the Raven is a badly designed support unit that can be massed without much drawbacks, which is absurd for a support unit.
Thats the whole point, instead of making them better (game play wise) they are just making them dissapear from the game, the ravens are already used in very few instances.
I think the raven is a good unit the spells are actually interesting because they allow mech to take fights other wise they wouldn't be able to, however they fucked up the implementation of the spells, a few tweaks could make ravens more useful in small numbers and less strong when massed but they don't seem care about that apparently.
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On March 20 2015 03:24 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:14 Deathstar wrote:On March 20 2015 03:11 Destructicon wrote: Its a bad idea for them to release the SH redesign in zerg's current state. Without SH play to anchor the race zerg will become pitifully weak late game vs both mech and protoss. au revoir firecake For the record, I don't like SH, like at all. I firmly believe that free units concept is broken in SC2's current design. But I'm also aware that currently its the only thing that sort of held zerg together against the strongest late game deathballs. Without a suitable replacement I don't think it will be long until you see the results. And at the moment this patch just delivers a SH redesign, and no compensation.
I think you answered it right there: it is a redesign, not a simple nerf. Maybe the new SH will be totally broken once pros get their hands on them in a meaningful competition. We'll have to wait and see.
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real talk here: the swarm host change might as well be a removal of the unit, with the current cost and stats it will be unplayable at the pro level
this could be fine if the compensations were appropriate but these changes are so incredibly minor
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On March 20 2015 04:43 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:24 Destructicon wrote:On March 20 2015 03:14 Deathstar wrote:On March 20 2015 03:11 Destructicon wrote: Its a bad idea for them to release the SH redesign in zerg's current state. Without SH play to anchor the race zerg will become pitifully weak late game vs both mech and protoss. au revoir firecake For the record, I don't like SH, like at all. I firmly believe that free units concept is broken in SC2's current design. But I'm also aware that currently its the only thing that sort of held zerg together against the strongest late game deathballs. Without a suitable replacement I don't think it will be long until you see the results. And at the moment this patch just delivers a SH redesign, and no compensation. I think you answered it right there: it is a redesign, not a simple nerf. Maybe the new SH will be totally broken once pros get their hands on them in a meaningful competition. We'll have to wait and see. If it ends up being just bad zerg´s are gonna get rekt left and right in the late game. Seeing that zerg haven´t really won much in the whole Hots i´m not really looking forward to this.
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On March 20 2015 04:49 Tsubbi wrote: real talk here: the swarm host change might as well be a removal of the unit, with the current cost and stats it will be unplayable at the pro level
this could be fine if the compensations were appropriate but these changes are so incredibly minor
I wonder about this. Yeah, PDD is getting nerfed. But if Swarm hosts are basically jank then Ravens may come out the better for this patch.
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On March 20 2015 04:49 Tsubbi wrote: real talk here: the swarm host change might as well be a removal of the unit, with the current cost and stats it will be unplayable at the pro level
this could be fine if the compensations were appropriate but these changes are so incredibly minor
If they added this Swarm Host on top of the existing Swarm Host I could see players going for old Swarm Hosts to make the game stale and then abuse the new Swarm Host as an undefendable mutalisk. With the old Swarm Host gone, I fear that the Happy/Gumiho-esque Mech play that turtles up 3bases and then does a 160-200 supply attack just hits too hard if you invest into the new SHs in the midgame.
I have no problem if it turns out that the new SH is useless because that's as close as removing it as possible, but if that happens, as you say, the compensations are laughable. 20sec PDD... Does this change anything for a combat? Not at all. Hydras/Mutas are still useless the moment PDDs are in the picture. Corruptors... watch YoDa vs soO if you want to know how good 150supply of Zergs most specialist anti air are when the opponent has still half his supply in ground forces... But I could see the new Swarm Host being somewhat OK against the complete bullshit Orbital Command Farming players. But what they really should do is increase Raven supply to 3. Or better remove it alltogether with the Swarm Host, the unit is pure cancer when you get a bigger amount of them, not just in ZvT but TvT Raventurtles aren't better either.
They keep on talking about making a more exciting and fast-paced game... Then just remove the crap that allows you to turtle like stupid: Swarm Host, moving base defenses, Ravens, Protoss, Planetary Fortress... Stop introducing gimmicks to deal with the crap you created...
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some where avilo must be crying lol
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I'm disappointed they didn't go bold and remove tempest.
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what a surprise, pvp requires tempest in order to prevent colo vs colo , how could we not see that coming?..........
edit: lol Big J do you some troubles with toss ?
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I dont understand why they choose to balance tempest/msc around pvp. Mirror matchups are always balanced and should be considered last when it comes to changes.
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On March 20 2015 03:11 BisuDagger wrote:Why nerf PDD without making the raven any better? I am really disappointed ravens aren't playing a bigger role the way science vessels did for SC1. So much potential in the raven and I love it as a unit. Anything to get it in the game would be great. It looks like they forgot the raven in LoTV too.
I totally agree with that
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Seems like a good list of changes.
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I got to say to all the zergs that aren't to happy with this, please just wait and see, the first time i tried out the LOTV custom i played mech vs zerg and they went sh roach hydra on king sejong station ( was a great game) but what was crazy was he sat at his forward 4/5th base and launched his flying locust and they would just come flying and crashing onto my tanks even with a huge fleet of vikings and ppds the splash from my own tanks were killing me and when i would go to kill them with seekers the speedy swarmhost would just run and i wasted energy. the counter I believe is more thors for splash against the flying locust, but in the mist of battle didnt think of it and lost a lot.
Another cool thing was he would come to the side of my base and launch a hit squad into my main base in which there is really nothing i can do even with turrets and tanks in my main ( still not sure what to do here, maybe don't let then get there?).
yes maybe the swarmhost wont be as amazing in the late game or even good to mass but with the new speed and ability to launch locust into mains from low ground and other cool little things will add a new dynamic to zerg which is more hit and run, in which pushes and pulls your opponent around rather then just sitting around for an 1hr, which is what i think zerg really should be. ( think of having swamhost in the nat on the opposite side of your opponets nat on deadwing and launching a hit squad into the opponents nat and running away which could do alot of dmg.)
yes at first it will be hard to get used to but once you figured it out i believe they will fit better in the game. I personally wish they would get rid of the swarmhost but if they must keep it i think this is the right way to go still have to wait and see but i think its the right way.
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On March 20 2015 06:50 zerge wrote: I dont understand why they choose to balance tempest/msc around pvp. Mirror matchups are always balanced and should be considered last when it comes to changes.
It's not just about balance, it's about gameplay, and the games a certain matchup produces.
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On March 20 2015 06:33 Cazimirbzh wrote: what a surprise, pvp requires tempest in order to prevent colo vs colo , how could we not see that coming?..........
edit: lol Big J do you some troubles with toss ? I'm not the first one that says Protoss would need some major changes to make it fun to play against them. The race is a clusterfuck between all-out gamble moves and sitting on 2-3bases for 15mins doing nothing. Hence my comment implying the remark about removing Protoss if they really cared so much about making the game more fast paced and exciting. But as everytime blizzard doesn't understand the correlation between turtle strategies. Zerg goes Swarm Hosts because its the only good way to combat Protoss players that sit on their ass behind canon/forcefield/colossus walls and actual walls. Protoss don't attack because who would be so stupid to attack into free units. Now what they do is remove the Zerg option while keeping the other one. Last time they tried that they ended up with replacing Broodlord/Infestor with Swarm Host/Viper/Static D because there needs to be something that can take on that deathball somehow. But they are not working on the other side of the problem at all, which is the ridiculous combat power of the Protoss deathball in the lategame (if it wasn't for these Superartillery armies), not just in this one matchup. Seems like with this patch they are trying to go back to Broodlords instead of Swarm Hosts, how exciting...
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On March 20 2015 08:14 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 06:50 zerge wrote: I dont understand why they choose to balance tempest/msc around pvp. Mirror matchups are always balanced and should be considered last when it comes to changes. It's not just about balance, it's about gameplay, and the games a certain matchup produces. But making a protoss unit do + damage to shield or give the shieldbattery or anything cool instead of these lame things. Or just redesign protoss into a more cool and skillful race. Problem solved, better for anyone and i might go toss actually. Not now, never.
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I guess I'm a pessimist, but i don't see zerg late-game being able to compete after the swarmhost change. If you can fight through a locust wave, zerg is now down in supply (the supply tied up in sh's) and cost inefficient (roach/hydra/viper/corruptor vs airtoss/templar or mass raven mech are generally not long term strategies, or at least a bit weaker). If you're going swarmhost in the mid game i can't see getting much done with the gas cost of the swarmhosts at 200 and the flying upgrade coming at hive.
My hope is that this will highlight the "symmetry" problem that three base eco presents. Each race needs to be cost effective and zerg can't really play a "swarm" style. Doubt that too though.
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On March 20 2015 08:33 Lobotomist wrote: I guess I'm a pessimist, but i don't see zerg late-game being able to compete after the swarmhost change. If you can fight through a locust wave, zerg is now down in supply (the supply tied up in sh's) and cost inefficient (roach/hydra/viper/corruptor vs airtoss/templar or mass raven mech are generally not long term strategies, or at least a bit weaker). If you're going swarmhost in the mid game i can't see getting much done with the gas cost of the swarmhosts at 200 and the flying upgrade coming at hive.
My hope is that this will highlight the "symmetry" problem that three base eco presents. Each race needs to be cost effective and zerg can't really play a "swarm" style. Doubt that too though.
That's no longer the case, the upgrade has no requirement now anymore, you just build it from the Infestation Pit. At least that was what was on the last testmap.
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Starting from april PDD will stand for Pointless Defense Drone
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Please give some use for raven if you going to nerf PDD, making it feasible vs Protoss always sounded exciting to me.
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Now you need 8 Tempests to one shot a Colossus. Just putting this number out there.
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People complaining about Terran
Blizzard explicitly state in LoTV Beta video they want to add another Terran unit based on community design/feeback
smh...
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On March 20 2015 13:08 lost_artz wrote: People complaining about Terran
Blizzard explicitly state in LoTV Beta video they want to add another Terran unit based on community design/feeback
smh...
thats for LoTV this is still HoTS and if you didnt know LoTV isn't coming out for awhile(plz dont give me betas coming because its only going out to pros and personalities.)
smh
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On March 20 2015 13:20 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 13:08 lost_artz wrote: People complaining about Terran
Blizzard explicitly state in LoTV Beta video they want to add another Terran unit based on community design/feeback
smh... thats for LoTV this is still HoTS and if you didnt know LoTV isn't coming out for awhile(plz dont give me betas coming because its only going out to pros and personalities.) smh
Um... that applies to Protoss and Zerg, too...
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On March 20 2015 03:24 KatatoniK wrote: About time Ravens got a nerf in some form, they're really stupid to face when massed up.
I can't say much about the Tempest change because I can't remember the last time I was actually able to get a second Nexus in PvP, let alone up to that tech :< Thats funny because I cant remember last time I didnt get second nexus in PvP
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On March 20 2015 14:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:24 KatatoniK wrote: About time Ravens got a nerf in some form, they're really stupid to face when massed up.
I can't say much about the Tempest change because I can't remember the last time I was actually able to get a second Nexus in PvP, let alone up to that tech :< Thats funny because I cant remember last time I didnt get second nexus in PvP
Gold league PvP is a harsh harsh place where the N key is nothing more than a myth
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This is the time to move out the stupid Auto Turret out from the Raven, and give it a more interesting ability.
PDD time might result too short, but 30-45 seconds at max is what we might need, maybe with a reduced energy cost. 3 minutes was simply lame if you didn't focus the PDDs.
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On March 20 2015 22:37 JCoto wrote: This is the time to move out the stupid Auto Turret out from the Raven, and give it a more interesting ability.
PDD time might result too short, but 30-45 seconds at max is what we might need, maybe with a reduced energy cost. 3 minutes was simply lame if you didn't focus the PDDs.
PDD should last 60 seconds and have no energy, and yes there is a reason for both those things.
I actually have been thinking about doing some sort of article about the raven, but I don't know if people would read it, theres is actually a few things about the raven that aren't well know and I really think it can become a fun unit, maybe I'll do it in the weekend.
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On March 20 2015 23:09 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 22:37 JCoto wrote: This is the time to move out the stupid Auto Turret out from the Raven, and give it a more interesting ability.
PDD time might result too short, but 30-45 seconds at max is what we might need, maybe with a reduced energy cost. 3 minutes was simply lame if you didn't focus the PDDs. PDD should last 60 seconds and have no energy, and yes there is a reason for both those things.
It would have to be a bloody good one, given that it would reduce the number of PDDs ravens would have to drop in a large engagement to... well, one.
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On March 20 2015 23:14 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 23:09 Lexender wrote:On March 20 2015 22:37 JCoto wrote: This is the time to move out the stupid Auto Turret out from the Raven, and give it a more interesting ability.
PDD time might result too short, but 30-45 seconds at max is what we might need, maybe with a reduced energy cost. 3 minutes was simply lame if you didn't focus the PDDs. PDD should last 60 seconds and have no energy, and yes there is a reason for both those things. It would have to be a bloody good one, given that it would reduce the number of PDDs ravens would have to drop in a large engagement to... well, one.
No, not the ravens, the PDDs lol
(yes the PDDs have energy)
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If it stays the way it is now zerg will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean terrans starting to learn how to properly abuse mech in zvt. Almost every top 100 terran has gone mech against me, even if they are previously strong with bio and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to terrans i cant match in ladder who go mech.
The pdd nerf would only be significant in zvt if swarmhosts were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. Zerg will not physically be able to beat mech. Swarmhosts are the only good unit zerg has to fight mech and even with it the ravens once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with mech.
zvp is not too bad, but the hydra needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with range and their old +10 back. The phoenix upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled phoenix users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over muta and corrupters.
Also not looking at the widow mine or hellbat is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them.
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If it stays the way it is now mech will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean zergs starting to learn how to properly abuse vipers in zvt. Almost every top 100 zerg has gone vipers against me, even if they are previously strong with pure roach hydra and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to zergs i cant match in ladder who go vipers.
The swarmhost nerf would only be significant in zvt if ravens were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. mech will not physically be able to beat vipers. ravens are the only good unit terran has to fight vipers and even with it the vipers once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with vipers.
tvp is not too bad, but the ghost needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with cloak and their old emp radius back. The collossus upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled collossus users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over marines and marauders.
Also not looking at the baneling and the roach is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them.
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I hope they rework a bit the Swarm Host. I hate the point where it is now, being a Broodlord wannabe, while the Broodlord itself could just be buffed a bit, specially in speed/acceleration and range and maybe +1 armor and Greater spire could be a bit more accessible and easy to reach, specially with shorter morph time.
I would just rework the Swarm Host in a very different fashion, making it energy based with short ability cooldown, and with the increased cost, specially in supply, they could be uselful by attacking at multiple flanks with big "swarmy" waves. Of course, Locusts would need be nerfed. I'm not able to understand free units having more DPS than a Hydralisk, which is the glass cannon and the DPS-like unit of the Zerg army. A locust has 65 HP and 15 (20DPS in the next patch) within short range, it's free, and spawns in pairs with timed life. The hydralisk costs 100/50, has 80 HP and 16 DPS and lasts almost the same that Locusts in Battle.
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On March 20 2015 23:54 Charoisaur wrote: If it stays the way it is now mech will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean zergs starting to learn how to properly abuse vipers in zvt. Almost every top 100 zerg has gone vipers against me, even if they are previously strong with pure roach hydra and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to zergs i cant match in ladder who go vipers.
The swarmhost nerf would only be significant in zvt if ravens were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. mech will not physically be able to beat vipers. ravens are the only good unit terran has to fight vipers and even with it the vipers once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with vipers.
tvp is not too bad, but the ghost needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with cloak and their old emp radius back. The collossus upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled collossus users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over marines and marauders.
Also not looking at the baneling and the roach is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them.
Maybe the fact you lose to vipers and think roaches are cost effective is why you arent gm on korea... typical unskilled biased terran.
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On March 20 2015 23:31 duckk wrote: If it stays the way it is now zerg will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean terrans starting to learn how to properly abuse mech in zvt. Almost every top 100 terran has gone mech against me, even if they are previously strong with bio and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to terrans i cant match in ladder who go mech.
The pdd nerf would only be significant in zvt if swarmhosts were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. Zerg will not physically be able to beat mech. Swarmhosts are the only good unit zerg has to fight mech and even with it the ravens once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with mech.
zvp is not too bad, but the hydra needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with range and their old +10 back. The phoenix upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled phoenix users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over muta and corrupters.
Also not looking at the widow mine or hellbat is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them.
Maybe the fact you lose to mech and think hellbats are cost effective is why you arent gm on korea... typical unskilled biased zerg.
seriously, i don't think zerg will be in nearly as much trouble as you think. At the moment mech barely works vs someone who scouts and knows how to play vs it and the viper buff and raven nerf is absolutely huge. Broodlord corruptor or ultra viper will probably deal really well with mech, imo it will be even to strong vs mech, but we will see how it plays out. Only because you have problems vs mech on ladder doesn't mean it's imba.
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On March 21 2015 00:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 23:31 duckk wrote: If it stays the way it is now zerg will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean terrans starting to learn how to properly abuse mech in zvt. Almost every top 100 terran has gone mech against me, even if they are previously strong with bio and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to terrans i cant match in ladder who go mech.
The pdd nerf would only be significant in zvt if swarmhosts were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. Zerg will not physically be able to beat mech. Swarmhosts are the only good unit zerg has to fight mech and even with it the ravens once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with mech.
zvp is not too bad, but the hydra needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with range and their old +10 back. The phoenix upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled phoenix users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over muta and corrupters.
Also not looking at the widow mine or hellbat is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them. Maybe the fact you lose to mech and think hellbats are cost effective is why you arent gm on korea... typical unskilled biased zerg. seriously, i don't think zerg will be in nearly as much trouble as you think. At the moment mech barely works vs someone who scouts and knows how to play vs it and the viper buff and raven nerf is absolutely huge. Broodlord corruptor or ultra viper will probably deal really well with mech, imo it will be even to strong vs mech, but we will see how it plays out. Only because you have problems vs mech on ladder doesn't mean it's imba.
Broodlords cant work because raven's hardcounter them with hsm (viper should be able to abduct broodlords again would fix this). corrupters still get negated by pdd's which isnt an issue either side. Ultras are weak vs pf placement and hsm also kills them. ( they should not be able to get seekered and they would be better)
It is not just me who is having problems vs mech. The few zergs who seem to do well vs mech rely on swarmhosts and hour long games at a minimum. It is not even that mech is too strong, it is that it is invincible with pdd. It is easy to instantly kill 30 swarmhosts with HSM, or 50 mutas with HSM. Skill can overcome imbalance, but when ravens make your entire army invulnerable it is very difficult to get "better" vs. Is my gameplan really suppose to be hope i can chain fungal 200 supply at once? Relying on abduct is also bad as you have to be in range of vikings to do it, so best case scenario it is 1 viper for 1 abduct which is not a guaranteed kill. Overseer circle spamming can be useful but can be risky with thors nearby.
Remove the swarmhost and raven from the game and it would be a better matchup IMO. would be worth testing at the very least. If any1 has tested a zvmech build please pm me it.
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On March 21 2015 00:33 duckk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 00:16 Charoisaur wrote:On March 20 2015 23:31 duckk wrote: If it stays the way it is now zerg will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean terrans starting to learn how to properly abuse mech in zvt. Almost every top 100 terran has gone mech against me, even if they are previously strong with bio and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to terrans i cant match in ladder who go mech.
The pdd nerf would only be significant in zvt if swarmhosts were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. Zerg will not physically be able to beat mech. Swarmhosts are the only good unit zerg has to fight mech and even with it the ravens once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with mech.
zvp is not too bad, but the hydra needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with range and their old +10 back. The phoenix upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled phoenix users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over muta and corrupters.
Also not looking at the widow mine or hellbat is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them. Maybe the fact you lose to mech and think hellbats are cost effective is why you arent gm on korea... typical unskilled biased zerg. seriously, i don't think zerg will be in nearly as much trouble as you think. At the moment mech barely works vs someone who scouts and knows how to play vs it and the viper buff and raven nerf is absolutely huge. Broodlord corruptor or ultra viper will probably deal really well with mech, imo it will be even to strong vs mech, but we will see how it plays out. Only because you have problems vs mech on ladder doesn't mean it's imba. Broodlords cant work because raven's hardcounter them with hsm (viper should be able to abduct broodlords again would fix this). corrupters still get negated by pdd's which isnt an issue either side. Ultras are weak vs pf placement and hsm also kills them. ( they should not be able to get seekered and they would be better) It is not just me who is having problems vs mech. The few zergs who seem to do well vs mech rely on swarmhosts and hour long games at a minimum. It is not even that mech is too strong, it is that it is invincible with pdd. It is easy to instantly kill 30 swarmhosts with HSM, or 50 mutas with HSM. Skill can overcome imbalance, but when ravens make your entire army invulnerable it is very difficult to get "better" vs. Is my gameplan really suppose to be hope i can chain fungal 200 supply at once? Relying on abduct is also bad as you have to be in range of vikings to do it, so best case scenario it is 1 viper for 1 abduct which is not a guaranteed kill. Overseer circle spamming can be useful but can be risky with thors nearby. Remove the swarmhost and raven from the game and it would be a better matchup IMO. would be worth testing at the very least. If any1 has tested a zvmech build please pm me it.
i think i know what your mistake is...
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On March 20 2015 03:15 Topin wrote: PDD nerf is just too big
u haven't even seen what the nerf is...
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he doesn't use Queens that outheal Seeker Missiles on Broodlords and Ultras, since one SM doesn't kill both types ? I had a Terran SM my Ultra once while it was open ground on creep. His whole air blob died, after he gave me a super fast running Bomb and realized it to late.
Still I really hate the PDD and Swarmhost change. PDD one makes no sense, while free units shouldn't be able to fight on their own.
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On March 21 2015 00:49 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 00:33 duckk wrote:On March 21 2015 00:16 Charoisaur wrote:On March 20 2015 23:31 duckk wrote: If it stays the way it is now zerg will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean terrans starting to learn how to properly abuse mech in zvt. Almost every top 100 terran has gone mech against me, even if they are previously strong with bio and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to terrans i cant match in ladder who go mech.
The pdd nerf would only be significant in zvt if swarmhosts were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. Zerg will not physically be able to beat mech. Swarmhosts are the only good unit zerg has to fight mech and even with it the ravens once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with mech.
zvp is not too bad, but the hydra needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with range and their old +10 back. The phoenix upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled phoenix users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over muta and corrupters.
Also not looking at the widow mine or hellbat is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them. Maybe the fact you lose to mech and think hellbats are cost effective is why you arent gm on korea... typical unskilled biased zerg. seriously, i don't think zerg will be in nearly as much trouble as you think. At the moment mech barely works vs someone who scouts and knows how to play vs it and the viper buff and raven nerf is absolutely huge. Broodlord corruptor or ultra viper will probably deal really well with mech, imo it will be even to strong vs mech, but we will see how it plays out. Only because you have problems vs mech on ladder doesn't mean it's imba. Broodlords cant work because raven's hardcounter them with hsm (viper should be able to abduct broodlords again would fix this). corrupters still get negated by pdd's which isnt an issue either side. Ultras are weak vs pf placement and hsm also kills them. ( they should not be able to get seekered and they would be better) It is not just me who is having problems vs mech. The few zergs who seem to do well vs mech rely on swarmhosts and hour long games at a minimum. It is not even that mech is too strong, it is that it is invincible with pdd. It is easy to instantly kill 30 swarmhosts with HSM, or 50 mutas with HSM. Skill can overcome imbalance, but when ravens make your entire army invulnerable it is very difficult to get "better" vs. Is my gameplan really suppose to be hope i can chain fungal 200 supply at once? Relying on abduct is also bad as you have to be in range of vikings to do it, so best case scenario it is 1 viper for 1 abduct which is not a guaranteed kill. Overseer circle spamming can be useful but can be risky with thors nearby. Remove the swarmhost and raven from the game and it would be a better matchup IMO. would be worth testing at the very least. If any1 has tested a zvmech build please pm me it. i think i know what your mistake is...
I see that cherry picking is your speciality! Anyway, zerg WILL have a very hard time versus mech without the current swarm hosts. You see what makes the raven so strong is not the HSM, its the PDD, and yes, even if it is nerfed it still lasts 20 seconds which will be long enough vs corruptors and broodlords.
Zerg will not have a reliable way to break tanks or even stall them anymore, Broodlords are counterd by 3 things, Ravens, Thors and the fact that mech gets their upgrades combined, fighting 2-2 vikings with AT BEST 2-0 corruptors are not going to work.
The only real way zerg will be able to win is in the early game and mid game unless the swarm host harass turns out to be so strong that terrans wont be able to take a 4th base safely anymore. You said in a previous post that vipers where a problem for mech and I can safely tell you that if you had made more than 5 vikings the vipers becomes almost uselss.
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On March 21 2015 02:13 kiLen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 00:49 Charoisaur wrote:On March 21 2015 00:33 duckk wrote:On March 21 2015 00:16 Charoisaur wrote:On March 20 2015 23:31 duckk wrote: If it stays the way it is now zerg will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean terrans starting to learn how to properly abuse mech in zvt. Almost every top 100 terran has gone mech against me, even if they are previously strong with bio and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to terrans i cant match in ladder who go mech.
The pdd nerf would only be significant in zvt if swarmhosts were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. Zerg will not physically be able to beat mech. Swarmhosts are the only good unit zerg has to fight mech and even with it the ravens once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with mech.
zvp is not too bad, but the hydra needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with range and their old +10 back. The phoenix upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled phoenix users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over muta and corrupters.
Also not looking at the widow mine or hellbat is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them. Maybe the fact you lose to mech and think hellbats are cost effective is why you arent gm on korea... typical unskilled biased zerg. seriously, i don't think zerg will be in nearly as much trouble as you think. At the moment mech barely works vs someone who scouts and knows how to play vs it and the viper buff and raven nerf is absolutely huge. Broodlord corruptor or ultra viper will probably deal really well with mech, imo it will be even to strong vs mech, but we will see how it plays out. Only because you have problems vs mech on ladder doesn't mean it's imba. Broodlords cant work because raven's hardcounter them with hsm (viper should be able to abduct broodlords again would fix this). corrupters still get negated by pdd's which isnt an issue either side. Ultras are weak vs pf placement and hsm also kills them. ( they should not be able to get seekered and they would be better) It is not just me who is having problems vs mech. The few zergs who seem to do well vs mech rely on swarmhosts and hour long games at a minimum. It is not even that mech is too strong, it is that it is invincible with pdd. It is easy to instantly kill 30 swarmhosts with HSM, or 50 mutas with HSM. Skill can overcome imbalance, but when ravens make your entire army invulnerable it is very difficult to get "better" vs. Is my gameplan really suppose to be hope i can chain fungal 200 supply at once? Relying on abduct is also bad as you have to be in range of vikings to do it, so best case scenario it is 1 viper for 1 abduct which is not a guaranteed kill. Overseer circle spamming can be useful but can be risky with thors nearby. Remove the swarmhost and raven from the game and it would be a better matchup IMO. would be worth testing at the very least. If any1 has tested a zvmech build please pm me it. i think i know what your mistake is... I see that cherry picking is your speciality! Anyway, zerg WILL have a very hard time versus mech without the current swarm hosts. You see what makes the raven so strong is not the HSM, its the PDD, and yes, even if it is nerfed it still lasts 20 seconds which will be long enough vs corruptors and broodlords. Zerg will not have a reliable way to break tanks or even stall them anymore, Broodlords are counterd by 3 things, Ravens, Thors and the fact that mech gets their upgrades combined, fighting 2-2 vikings with AT BEST 2-0 corruptors are not going to work. The only real way zerg will be able to win is in the early game and mid game unless the swarm host harass turns out to be so strong that terrans wont be able to take a 4th base safely anymore. You said in a previous post that vipers where a problem for mech and I can safely tell you that if you had made more than 5 vikings the vipers becomes almost uselss. If they are going mech and you have so few vipers that 5 vikings can deal with them then the problem is at your end. Blinding cloud range is huge, it is impossible for Vikings to kill everything before doing that. Drop the cloud and kill the mech.
And I think that his point was that you can totally disregard the opinion of someone who thinks that you can HSM and kill 30 Swarm Hosts and especially 50 Mutas - don't they fly? Fly them out of target range - ffs I even see Immortals escaping HSMs and they are not fast.
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It´s amazing how some terrans still tell you that mech is not strong against zerg. I guess it´s the same kind of thing like "terran gets nerfed in every patch" belief that is not reliant on real life.
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It's just terrible change. How can you say, first i remove +massive vs broodlord to allow Zerg to have a late game vs protoss (that means dk admits sh change make zerg in a bad shape on late game and need compensation). But oh wait i have a lot of protoss cry about pvp so i get back +massive. That means pvp design more important than z ability to face fight vs protoss ?
It says : players who play zerg i don't care if your underpower, i just care about viewers and protoss gold feedback.
Aslo, it aslo show the incompentence of dk, as there is some simple solution to affect only one match : you give + air shield or +air mecanical to tempest but no better double nerf zerg.
I aslo don't get the idea of sh change now. The problem exist until the beta, a long game with sh was present on beta, dk choose to do nothing. Now the lotv beta is close to be online, there is some arcade where you can test the flying locust if you find them cool (notice sh were cheaper on beta than on patch note), but you have to release the patchnote now ? Why should i undergo now a massive nerf of my race now ? It's not beta of hots, i've paid for a finished product, if dk want to test things, there is LOTV beta for it. And i can choose to buy or not LOTV, it's like they force zerg to buy lotv if they want to be competitive on sc2.
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They should push bonus damage vs structures on the Tempest, as intended long ago, and give the colossus the structure attribute. Maybe if it's funky, it would work.
And also some posible use for banelings in ZvP as a present!
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On March 21 2015 03:11 RaFox17 wrote: It´s amazing how some terrans still tell you that mech is not strong against zerg. I guess it´s the same kind of thing like "terran gets nerfed in every patch" belief that is not reliant on real life.
Terran whining it's a part of this game. Sometimes they even cry because MMM cant kill Gatewaycolossus armies while they are dropping at two locations at the same time, "saying Deathball OP" and "noskillrace". Basically they cry at anything that doesn't melt against MMM, even when Stimbio is probably the most effective composition against anything that doesn't have a decent AoE,
As a Protoss I wish that mixed gateways could work without the need of deathballing at LotV with the introduction of the Adept. The Forcefield+Blink+Shadow teleport is going to be a micro fest, so let's pray for the whining to stop.
Asides from the typical racial jokes, the problem with Terran is that Bio and Mech don't really synergize well, so using mixed styles is not really viable. The Siege Medivac thing and the Cyclone in LotV are thought to solve this problem a bit.
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Am I the only one who hates the Viper?
I think Abduct is the dumbest ability in the game, worse than FF. It is so easy to pull off. It just counters every tech unit, forcing players to build tier 1 crap (which is why we see so many Protoss focus so heavily on tier 1 PvZ). And Vipers double counter Siege Tanks with Abduct and Blinding Cloud...
I am not saying that Zerg should lose the Viper and gain nothing, I just think the whole design of the unit from a game design perspective is terrible.
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On March 21 2015 13:11 BronzeKnee wrote: Am I the only one who hates the Viper?
I think Abduct is the dumbest ability in the game, worse than FF. It is so easy to pull off. It just counters every tech unit, forcing players to build tier 1 crap (which is why we see so many Protoss focus so heavily on tier 1 PvZ). And Vipers double counter Siege Tanks with Abduct and Blinding Cloud...
I am not saying that Zerg should lose the Viper and gain nothing, I just think the whole design of the unit from a game design perspective is terrible.
I absolutely hate vipers. It's so tilting to watch a guy a-moving and then clicking on 1 colossus to abduct, to instantly win the game. HT vs Vipers is so stupid. I don't know whether I'm flipping coins, playing poker or what is going on. I don't know what to make of it. All I know is it feels a lot like vortex vs infestor, broodlord, but a lot more Zerg favored. Give me WoL any day over anything P vs Z related in HotS (minus photon overcharge and recall).
I can't believe they're finally giving Zerg a unit that requires a person's presence at their keyboard. I'm not sure the shock will ever wear off, until they decide to remove force field instead of going ahead with the ravager.
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On March 21 2015 02:13 kiLen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 00:49 Charoisaur wrote:On March 21 2015 00:33 duckk wrote:On March 21 2015 00:16 Charoisaur wrote:On March 20 2015 23:31 duckk wrote: If it stays the way it is now zerg will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean terrans starting to learn how to properly abuse mech in zvt. Almost every top 100 terran has gone mech against me, even if they are previously strong with bio and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to terrans i cant match in ladder who go mech.
The pdd nerf would only be significant in zvt if swarmhosts were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. Zerg will not physically be able to beat mech. Swarmhosts are the only good unit zerg has to fight mech and even with it the ravens once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with mech.
zvp is not too bad, but the hydra needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with range and their old +10 back. The phoenix upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled phoenix users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over muta and corrupters.
Also not looking at the widow mine or hellbat is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them. Maybe the fact you lose to mech and think hellbats are cost effective is why you arent gm on korea... typical unskilled biased zerg. seriously, i don't think zerg will be in nearly as much trouble as you think. At the moment mech barely works vs someone who scouts and knows how to play vs it and the viper buff and raven nerf is absolutely huge. Broodlord corruptor or ultra viper will probably deal really well with mech, imo it will be even to strong vs mech, but we will see how it plays out. Only because you have problems vs mech on ladder doesn't mean it's imba. Broodlords cant work because raven's hardcounter them with hsm (viper should be able to abduct broodlords again would fix this). corrupters still get negated by pdd's which isnt an issue either side. Ultras are weak vs pf placement and hsm also kills them. ( they should not be able to get seekered and they would be better) It is not just me who is having problems vs mech. The few zergs who seem to do well vs mech rely on swarmhosts and hour long games at a minimum. It is not even that mech is too strong, it is that it is invincible with pdd. It is easy to instantly kill 30 swarmhosts with HSM, or 50 mutas with HSM. Skill can overcome imbalance, but when ravens make your entire army invulnerable it is very difficult to get "better" vs. Is my gameplan really suppose to be hope i can chain fungal 200 supply at once? Relying on abduct is also bad as you have to be in range of vikings to do it, so best case scenario it is 1 viper for 1 abduct which is not a guaranteed kill. Overseer circle spamming can be useful but can be risky with thors nearby. Remove the swarmhost and raven from the game and it would be a better matchup IMO. would be worth testing at the very least. If any1 has tested a zvmech build please pm me it. i think i know what your mistake is... I see that cherry picking is your speciality! Anyway, zerg WILL have a very hard time versus mech without the current swarm hosts. You see what makes the raven so strong is not the HSM, its the PDD, and yes, even if it is nerfed it still lasts 20 seconds which will be long enough vs corruptors and broodlords. Zerg will not have a reliable way to break tanks or even stall them anymore, Broodlords are counterd by 3 things, Ravens, Thors and the fact that mech gets their upgrades combined, fighting 2-2 vikings with AT BEST 2-0 corruptors are not going to work. The only real way zerg will be able to win is in the early game and mid game unless the swarm host harass turns out to be so strong that terrans wont be able to take a 4th base safely anymore. You said in a previous post that vipers where a problem for mech and I can safely tell you that if you had made more than 5 vikings the vipers becomes almost uselss.
1.- How will PDD affects broodlords?
2.- Zerg anti air is shit yes but no zerg would be stupid enough to stay in the sameplace for the duration of the 20 seconds, a zerg army is much more mobile than a mech one, if a zerg simply stays in range of a PDD for the 20 seconds its not the fault of the PDD.
3.- I have no idea why you think HSM is so strong, they barely do any damage if they don't do a lot of damage to terrans units when they bait the HSM and fly the units into their army, theres a reason HSM is barely used in pro play and instead they prefer PDD/HSM
4.- 5 vikings killing all vipers... ok I think theres no point to argue anymore
I think that these changes need to be tested, the only reason the SH was needed was because skyterran (aka the raven) was too strong, but now the mech army has no transition, once on hellbat/tank/thor/viking (and maybe medivacs/banshees) there is nothing to transition to (since BC suck really bad) so there wouldn't be a timer on the zerg.
With the new viper change I think we just need to wait and see, the raven is pretty much useless now so I don't see why there would still be a problem with, we just need to wait and see how the other units in both arsenal would interact.
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On March 21 2015 13:49 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 13:11 BronzeKnee wrote: Am I the only one who hates the Viper?
I think Abduct is the dumbest ability in the game, worse than FF. It is so easy to pull off. It just counters every tech unit, forcing players to build tier 1 crap (which is why we see so many Protoss focus so heavily on tier 1 PvZ). And Vipers double counter Siege Tanks with Abduct and Blinding Cloud...
I am not saying that Zerg should lose the Viper and gain nothing, I just think the whole design of the unit from a game design perspective is terrible. I absolutely hate vipers. It's so tilting to watch a guy a-moving and then clicking on 1 colossus to abduct, to instantly win the game. HT vs Vipers is so stupid. I don't know whether I'm flipping coins, playing poker or what is going on. I don't know what to make of it. All I know is it feels a lot like vortex vs infestor, broodlord, but a lot more Zerg favored. Give me WoL any day over anything P vs Z related in HotS (minus photon overcharge and recall). I can't believe they're finally giving Zerg a unit that requires a person's presence at their keyboard. I'm not sure the shock will ever wear off, until they decide to remove force field instead of going ahead with the ravager.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. I'd even say it worse than Vortex vs Broods, because at least you could split to counter Vortex (though Vortex was still overpowered). Against Abduct, you just watch you expensive units fly into a mass of cheap Zerg crap.
And there is no skill, no positioning to get an angle or concave, no outmaneuvering, no fancy micro that separates pros from noobs. Whether or not the Zerg lands the Abduct often decides the fight, nothing more. Either the Feedback beats the Abduct or it doesn't. There is no inbetween. It's terrible.
Zerg shouldn't be dependent on it, but because they are it is easier to land Abduct with lots of Vipers than it is to feedback them. It is horrendous game design.
In fact, the Corrupters, an incredibly one dimensional hard counter (hard counters are also terrible game design) unit, provide more opportunities for skill on both the Zerg and Protoss side than the Viper does.
At the very least, they could make Abduct like Blitzcrank's or Pudge's hook. Make it at least require some aiming.
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Lol, what's your league ? Whining about vipers. The unit cost a lot of gaz, 3 supply, and have no dps. What about chargelot, archons, void charge, collossus, wm, hellbat.
And corruptor hard counter ? lol. What about mass void that kill mutas/corruptor/hydralisk.
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Corruptor hard counters something? The only thing corruptors hard counter are units that don't shoot back lol.
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On March 23 2015 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Corruptor hard counters something? The only thing corruptors hard counter are units that don't shoot back lol.
They are quite strong against mutas,phoenixes and tempests, for example. But they don't "hardcounter" any air unit that plainly because they have short range and low DPS.
In fact, I'd love to see more units with that "low DPS" - "softcounter" concept. Game would be fairly more interesting.
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On March 21 2015 13:49 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 13:11 BronzeKnee wrote: Am I the only one who hates the Viper?
I think Abduct is the dumbest ability in the game, worse than FF. It is so easy to pull off. It just counters every tech unit, forcing players to build tier 1 crap (which is why we see so many Protoss focus so heavily on tier 1 PvZ). And Vipers double counter Siege Tanks with Abduct and Blinding Cloud...
I am not saying that Zerg should lose the Viper and gain nothing, I just think the whole design of the unit from a game design perspective is terrible. I absolutely hate vipers. It's so tilting to watch a guy a-moving and then clicking on 1 colossus to abduct, to instantly win the game. HT vs Vipers is so stupid. I don't know whether I'm flipping coins, playing poker or what is going on. I don't know what to make of it. All I know is it feels a lot like vortex vs infestor, broodlord, but a lot more Zerg favored. Give me WoL any day over anything P vs Z related in HotS (minus photon overcharge and recall). I can't believe they're finally giving Zerg a unit that requires a person's presence at their keyboard. I'm not sure the shock will ever wear off, until they decide to remove force field instead of going ahead with the ravager.
i completely agree, the viper is probably after swarmhosts and tempests the unit i hate the most. I wouldn't say it's too strong or to easy to pull of but i just hate the fact that the outcome of an engagement depends entirely on one spell. When Gateway collossus armies fight vs roach hydra viper the only thing that determines who wins the engagement is who clicked at first. Did he hit feedback on the viper before his collossi got abducted? There is no thought behind this spell, you just click on the collossus and pray that the protoss is to slow with his feedbacks. The same goes for tvz. did he cast blinding cloud before the vikings killed the viper? if yes you win the game instantly, if no your army just melts vs his tanks. I don't think a single spell should have that much influence on engagements, it also reminds me of archon toilet in wol. Hopefully the viper gets removed/redesigned in lotv.
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On March 24 2015 05:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 13:49 playa wrote:On March 21 2015 13:11 BronzeKnee wrote: Am I the only one who hates the Viper?
I think Abduct is the dumbest ability in the game, worse than FF. It is so easy to pull off. It just counters every tech unit, forcing players to build tier 1 crap (which is why we see so many Protoss focus so heavily on tier 1 PvZ). And Vipers double counter Siege Tanks with Abduct and Blinding Cloud...
I am not saying that Zerg should lose the Viper and gain nothing, I just think the whole design of the unit from a game design perspective is terrible. I absolutely hate vipers. It's so tilting to watch a guy a-moving and then clicking on 1 colossus to abduct, to instantly win the game. HT vs Vipers is so stupid. I don't know whether I'm flipping coins, playing poker or what is going on. I don't know what to make of it. All I know is it feels a lot like vortex vs infestor, broodlord, but a lot more Zerg favored. Give me WoL any day over anything P vs Z related in HotS (minus photon overcharge and recall). I can't believe they're finally giving Zerg a unit that requires a person's presence at their keyboard. I'm not sure the shock will ever wear off, until they decide to remove force field instead of going ahead with the ravager. i completely agree, the viper is probably after swarmhosts and tempests the unit i hate the most. I wouldn't say it's too strong or to easy to pull of but i just hate the fact that the outcome of an engagement depends entirely on one spell. When Gateway collossus armies fight vs roach hydra viper the only thing that determines who wins the engagement is who clicked at first. Did he hit feedback on the viper before his collossi got abducted? There is no thought behind this spell, you just click on the collossus and pray that the protoss is to slow with his feedbacks. The same goes for tvz. did he cast blinding cloud before the vikings killed the viper? if yes you win the game instantly, if no your army just melts vs his tanks. I don't think a single spell should have that much influence on engagements, it also reminds me of archon toilet in wol. Hopefully the viper gets removed/redesigned in lotv. I think you are overestimating the power of abduct. Firstly roach hydra without vipers is total shit after protoss gets few colossi and game is over when there are HT and storm. Against mech blinding cloud is not insta win! Thanks to ravens and vikings attacking terran mech is super hard and if you attack without SH you often just get rekt. When you say how stupid viper is i see how dumb protoss death ball is or the power of mech. I don´t mind taking away the viper if you give something back to fight the absurd power of protoss and terran mech.
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Really? I think the Viper is in such a good spot and is surprised they actually have any changes in store for this unit, coming LotV.
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On March 24 2015 05:20 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2015 05:07 Charoisaur wrote:On March 21 2015 13:49 playa wrote:On March 21 2015 13:11 BronzeKnee wrote: Am I the only one who hates the Viper?
I think Abduct is the dumbest ability in the game, worse than FF. It is so easy to pull off. It just counters every tech unit, forcing players to build tier 1 crap (which is why we see so many Protoss focus so heavily on tier 1 PvZ). And Vipers double counter Siege Tanks with Abduct and Blinding Cloud...
I am not saying that Zerg should lose the Viper and gain nothing, I just think the whole design of the unit from a game design perspective is terrible. I absolutely hate vipers. It's so tilting to watch a guy a-moving and then clicking on 1 colossus to abduct, to instantly win the game. HT vs Vipers is so stupid. I don't know whether I'm flipping coins, playing poker or what is going on. I don't know what to make of it. All I know is it feels a lot like vortex vs infestor, broodlord, but a lot more Zerg favored. Give me WoL any day over anything P vs Z related in HotS (minus photon overcharge and recall). I can't believe they're finally giving Zerg a unit that requires a person's presence at their keyboard. I'm not sure the shock will ever wear off, until they decide to remove force field instead of going ahead with the ravager. i completely agree, the viper is probably after swarmhosts and tempests the unit i hate the most. I wouldn't say it's too strong or to easy to pull of but i just hate the fact that the outcome of an engagement depends entirely on one spell. When Gateway collossus armies fight vs roach hydra viper the only thing that determines who wins the engagement is who clicked at first. Did he hit feedback on the viper before his collossi got abducted? There is no thought behind this spell, you just click on the collossus and pray that the protoss is to slow with his feedbacks. The same goes for tvz. did he cast blinding cloud before the vikings killed the viper? if yes you win the game instantly, if no your army just melts vs his tanks. I don't think a single spell should have that much influence on engagements, it also reminds me of archon toilet in wol. Hopefully the viper gets removed/redesigned in lotv. I think you are overestimating the power of abduct. Firstly roach hydra without vipers is total shit after protoss gets few colossi and game is over when there are HT and storm. Against mech blinding cloud is not insta win! Thanks to ravens and vikings attacking terran mech is super hard and if you attack without SH you often just get rekt. When you say how stupid viper is i see how dumb protoss death ball is or the power of mech. I don´t mind taking away the viper if you give something back to fight the absurd power of protoss and terran mech.
I never said that vipers are too strong, i just don't like the unit from a design-perspective. I know that mech and protoss deathballs are super hard to defeat and you need vipers to even have a chance to do that but I just don't like the fact that the outcome of an engagement depends entirely on the usage of one spell, especially if that spell doesn't have a lot of micro potential. Of course zerg needs another unit once vipers are getting changed, that's why lotv is the perfect opportunity to do that.
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The Viper is one of the best bandaids in SC2. It's a unit that - unlike other bandaids like the MsC - doesn't just shut down something on its own. It requires units and certain compositions to work and only works really well against certain units and compositions. Without ever becoming useless in the purpose you built it - hello reaper, oracle... It's still a bandaid, mainly existing because Colossi with the protection of stalkers and storms are a broken unit if you dont have (air) artillery to fight them, but blizzard didnt want to force zerg into BLs every game. (Rather the opposite. When they made the Viper in late 2011 it was already clear that the broodlord was zergs only endgame option in WoL against Protoss but it caused bad gameplay) I guess these days it is also necessary against mech because instead of nerfing the (against mech) broken combination of Swarm Hosts with Vipers, they buffed mech until the former broken composition remained the only playable one.
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From the language they use it's pretty obvious that they think/know this patch will break the game.
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On March 24 2015 04:45 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2015 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Corruptor hard counters something? The only thing corruptors hard counter are units that don't shoot back lol. They are quite strong against mutas,phoenixes and tempests, for example. But they don't "hardcounter" any air unit that plainly because they have short range and low DPS. In fact, I'd love to see more units with that "low DPS" - "softcounter" concept. Game would be fairly more interesting. They have their uses, but corruptors are really awful. Being able to take on mutalisks, a fast harrass unit and tempest, a slow long range unit, is hardly a ringing endorsement, when everything that is able to shoot air beats them on a straight up engagement anyways. And pheonix handles corruptors fairly well once they get their +2 range upgrade. Anyhow I am replying to bronzeknee, not Tyrhanius, who seem to think corruptors hard counter something, to the extent he has bolded it. I am genuinely curious to see what exactly does he think the corruptor hard counters.
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On March 24 2015 04:45 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2015 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Corruptor hard counters something? The only thing corruptors hard counter are units that don't shoot back lol. They are quite strong against mutas,phoenixes and tempests, for example. But they don't "hardcounter" any air unit that plainly because they have short range and low DPS. In fact, I'd love to see more units with that "low DPS" - "softcounter" concept. Game would be fairly more interesting.
Building Curroptors against Mutas is like one of those "Who would win, a shark with knifes attached to his finns, or a tiger in a full body plate" things, it just doesn't happen and those two are so bad in killing each other...
But yeah, the concept of hard-counters is pretty weak and does not make for interesting games.
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About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner. I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea.
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On March 24 2015 09:49 Ninigi wrote: About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner. I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea. Imagine an upgrade at hive ( at the hive) for overlords to morph into increased supply overlords. Something like 200 minerals 100 gas upgrade.
Overlord: Mutated Sacs ( name up for debate obviously) 100 minerals, 200 gas grants 10 supply ( this supply extends above 200 and the new maximum cap that becomes reachable is 300) No health increase or stat changes just physical reiteration different colour/addon looking overlord: see supply depot extension.
This would allow for zerg to get more queens and even promotes zerg drop. You hide the expensive overlords. You go into broodlord queen static d + infestor + viper or you don't get this army and continue zergy style. Either way the investment is huge enough and the effect of it not buffing the overlord would make it zerg doesn't get to just exploit this new mechanic. Yet it can over time invest into this new style or over invest if zerg is massively ahead. ( for example big battle happens and both races trade hugely and need to remax) It would promote other races to try and hunt down these overlords because the reward incentive would be very good.
This does not fix zerg's anti air but it does take advantage of the zerg style blizzard and people already enjoy which is multitask macro/agression. Currently no zerg is really promoted to do zerg drops. As the supply cost of roaches or even the swarmhost (old or new for that matter) is essentially a wasted supply. You only ever see roaches being used to help vs zealot warp ins. With the warp in mechanic it's much easier for protoss to remax than compared to zerg. With the removal/change of the current SH i can garantuee zergs won't be able to defend everywhere.... Whilest still maintaning a good anti air army or a counter potential. I think all games will devolve into base trades without this change.
Another less cool change would be to speed up the base broodloord speed and acceleration a very small bit. But honestly if you ask me i think that would really suck and not be anywhere near as interesting. The fact that Tempest is getting a + massive damage nerf... i don't see any reason to buff broodlords yet.
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On March 24 2015 09:49 Ninigi wrote: About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner. I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea.
Yeah man, incredible idea, I'm sure blizzard is going to implement that, cuz u know, it's not like Zerg can remax instantly after losing their army, or switch tech after banking.
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On March 24 2015 11:40 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2015 09:49 Ninigi wrote: About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner. I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea. Yeah man, incredible idea, I'm sure blizzard is going to implement that, cuz u know, it's not like Zerg can remax instantly after losing their army, or switch tech after banking. It´s great to be able to remax instantly into another army that gets wiped out in the late game.
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On March 24 2015 15:06 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2015 11:40 fried_rice wrote:On March 24 2015 09:49 Ninigi wrote: About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner. I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea. Yeah man, incredible idea, I'm sure blizzard is going to implement that, cuz u know, it's not like Zerg can remax instantly after losing their army, or switch tech after banking. It´s great to be able to remax instantly into another army that gets wiped out in the late game. I see. So u want a comparably army strength AND want to remax instantly? Hmm....
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On March 24 2015 18:00 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2015 15:06 RaFox17 wrote:On March 24 2015 11:40 fried_rice wrote:On March 24 2015 09:49 Ninigi wrote: About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner. I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea. Yeah man, incredible idea, I'm sure blizzard is going to implement that, cuz u know, it's not like Zerg can remax instantly after losing their army, or switch tech after banking. It´s great to be able to remax instantly into another army that gets wiped out in the late game. I see. So u want a comparably army strength AND want to remax instantly? Hmm.... I wan´t to be able to fight against late game death balls without having taken the whole map while my opponent sits on 3-4 and rolls my armies again and again. You do understand that if your army dies and the opponent loses almost nothing you are dead if your opponent attacks? If you don´t max on kings it still takes a while.
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Zerg can already overmax. Yeah there's an issue, especially in ZvT, where Zerg's army supply is lower than their opponent's and this can cause issues. I'm not sure there's a call for something that can do that, though. Being able to instantly remax, occasionally more than once is still a thing (I'd like to see more hatcheries made ultra late game. I usually see Zerg not being able to remax due to larvae before not being able to remax due to bank).
Edit: Maybe a hive upgrade that ups the base larvae growth limit to 5 from 3 and has them come out faster.
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On March 24 2015 18:00 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2015 15:06 RaFox17 wrote:On March 24 2015 11:40 fried_rice wrote:On March 24 2015 09:49 Ninigi wrote: About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner. I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea. Yeah man, incredible idea, I'm sure blizzard is going to implement that, cuz u know, it's not like Zerg can remax instantly after losing their army, or switch tech after banking. It´s great to be able to remax instantly into another army that gets wiped out in the late game. I see. So u want a comparably army strength AND want to remax instantly? Hmm.... If zerg had an army unit comparable to the High Templar, Tempest or Raven in supplyefficieny zerg's also wouldnt be able zo remax because they'd spend all their money making those units. Terran and Protoss could also remax very fast (and they do sometimes: parade pushing, mass warpgate endgame). They just cant remax on a composition that was more expensive than the zerg ones to begin with.
That is the crux. Protoss and Terran have the ability to slowly replace their core units with more supplyefficient ones. At 15mins Mech can be maxed. At min 20 Mech has replaced 10hellbats with Ravens. At min 30 Mech still has no incentive to walk out because they can replace 200gas/6supply units with 3 200gas/2supply units. But what are you going to replace your roaches and ultras with? Banelings only work well vs light, cant clean up and are easily countered. Infestors and broodlords have been nerfed into the ground to prevent these strategies, overseeing that the other races now have a free pass to do just that. It's swarm hosts and vipers trying to get freekills and slowing down the process of reaching 50ravens+50viking armies for zerg. Eventually trying to bleed out the opponents bank and income with he slowest form of costefficieny possible.
If the new SH works nothing changes in that regard. Zergs trying to trade for free in lengthy games. P/Mech trying to reach singleplayerlike perfection. If it doesnt work, Zerg is done.
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