This is going to be a post of me trying to convince(mostly terrans) of why you should want charglot archon to be viable again in PvT. I think there are quite a lot of protoss who miss chargelot archon but maybe not so many terrans who miss it. I think this is because of a huge missunderstanding of how chargelot archon works in addition to perhaps some bitterness of the 2 base chargelot archon all in era. Two base all ins are not what I am arguing for.
What I want in PvT is a fun, dynamic, micro intensive, multitask intensive and skillfull matchup. Something that PvT definitely lacks right now compared to previous eras. I understand that chargelot archon was incredibly viable during the blink all in era and this allowed protoss with a blink pressure -> transition to chargelot archon to be incredibly strong. This may attribute to some 'chargelot archon being too strong' bias. I totally understand. However, as you read my argument please try to keep an open mind as to how this style creates exciting games and not how broken or unbalanced you think it is. These are things that can be tweaked in the future. With that being said charglot archon is actually the most fun composition to play not only as the protoss in PvT but also as the terran.
Some common misconceptions:
- chargelot archon is a-move - the Terran has way more micro and multitask to do - chargelot archon does not create a fun and engaging matchup
The actuality of the style
- takes intense micro on both sides. - creates tons of back and forth momentum in addition to constant action on the map - is hard to keep up with everything you need to do on both sides
Addressing archon a-move
I'm going to make a special section on this because there are a lot of terrans that would sell their first born child before admitting that chargelot archon is not a-move. Yes, I understand that having literally only archons and zealots is a-move. However, if the protoss a-moves chargelot archons(when it was viable) then the terran can simply kite back and the terran will trade better than the protoss. This is ideally how it would work in LoTV too. You simply can't just a-move. In actuality protoss has storms in addition to chargelot archon. This makes a fun dynamic where not only is the terran player splitting furiously against the storms but the protoss player is also spreading out high templar in order to avoid ghosts. At this point I think most of us would agree that this micro battle between the two players is already really exciting. There is, however, a third layer of excitement to playing the matchup this way. Drops. Both sides of this matchup can drop in order to distract their opponent. When the protoss plays col double upgrade style drops are consistently one giant doom drop and the protoss has no counter aggression. However, with chargelot archon the protoss has counter aggression with chargelot drops, dt, and storm drops. Thus, we get not one, but both sides dealing harrass damage. This often makes for games that have 3-4 or more things going on at once. In some of the games I link below the casters cant even keep up with all the things going on. Is this not exactly what people keep asking for to make it more like brood war? Not that I am a huge advocit of brood war. However, this is the one style apart from tvz muta ling bane vs marine medivac that is actually a ton of battles all over the map. A ton of battles equals a higher skill cap, more entertaining games for spectators and more fun for players. Again, keep in mind that balance can always be worried about later. I'm going to wrap this up by putting a few chargelot archon games that I personally loved(hence all of the parting games). What you should be looking at is how action packed and intense the games are. Im certain after watching these games you will have changed your opinion on chargelot archon, or if you like chargelot archon already you're going to really enjoy these amazing games.
Some amazing chargelot archon games:
Parting vs MKP on entombed probably one of the best series of all time:
Parting vs Hack:
Here's a korean vs foreigner game xDD Classic vs HeroMarine:
completely agree. i was considering making a similar post to this but I didn't have the time for it. Adding the +shield damage on the WM was imo one of the biggest mistakes blizzard ever made. While it made the matchup balanced it killed the entertaining zealot templar style in favor of boring collossus turtle. Now all we see are scv pulls or mass drop play with the protoss turtling in his base and the only question is if the terran can deal damage to the protoss or if the toss can turtle hard enough to survive. and I play terran so don't think only protoss player want templar styles back.
I think the majority of terran players would rather play against templar than collosus. The matchup is 10x more interesting when collosus aren't involved.
On March 31 2015 04:08 Soldier92 wrote: I think the majority of terran players would rather play against templar than collosus. The matchup is 10x more interesting when collosus aren't involved.
Why would we? Colossi are 100 times easier to deal with than storm.
On March 31 2015 04:08 Soldier92 wrote: I think the majority of terran players would rather play against templar than collosus. The matchup is 10x more interesting when collosus aren't involved.
Why would we? Colossi are 100 times easier to deal with than storm.
We should not be looking to make the game easier. It is more important that the game becomes harder for everyone. This will mean better games at the pro level and also the casual level. Please also consider that it is not only 100 times easier for the terran to deal with collossi than storm, its also 100 times easier for the protoss to play collossus than it is to play storm.
On March 31 2015 04:08 Soldier92 wrote: I think the majority of terran players would rather play against templar than collosus. The matchup is 10x more interesting when collosus aren't involved.
Why would we? Colossi are 100 times easier to deal with than storm.
That is not my experience. Although I will admit to having a mental block when it comes to building vikings in that matchup.
I'm neither Terran nor Protoss but yes please. Currently, apart from when a select few players are involved (Maru, TY, ...), we either see SCV pulls or the boring "can those Vikings kill the Colossi faster than the Stalkers kill the Vikings?" scenario. Chargelot/Archon was cool and shit, most Terrans probably have nightmares about it because it was predominant in an era when Protoss was strong and could toy with the Terran (false Blink all-in into HT hello), but it remains the most exciting way to see the MU be played in my Zerg viewer opinion.
On March 31 2015 04:22 OtherWorld wrote: I'm neither Terran nor Protoss but yes please. Currently, apart from when a select few players are involved (Maru, TY, ...), we either see SCV pulls or the boring "can those Vikings kill the Colossi faster than the Stalkers kill the Vikings?" scenario. Chargelot/Archon was cool and shit, most Terrans probably have nightmares about it because it was predominant in an era when Protoss was strong and could toy with the Terran (false Blink all-in into HT hello), but it remains the most exciting way to see the MU be played in my Zerg viewer opinion.
Yeah, I totally understand why terrans looks back on it with a bad taste in their mouth. I don't think it was directly because of chargelot archon though. Hopefully we can look past this and acknowledge that chargelot archon by itself is actually really exciting.
I personally hated playing against zealot/templar/archon. It basically felt like I was forced to kite for days and days and days. It wasn't fun even in the least.
Yeah TvP / PvT is pretty dull right now. However the reason they changed chargelot templar was because terrans was doing awful vs toss. I dont necessarily agree with it being "more fun" for the terran. That is opinion based and in my opinion it was much more frustrating to play against than playing against colossus. I do want it back to some extent to make the matchup more exiting but i feel like they would have to do something (like they did buffing the mines) to make it less powerful than during early 2014
On March 31 2015 04:08 Soldier92 wrote: I think the majority of terran players would rather play against templar than collosus. The matchup is 10x more interesting when collosus aren't involved.
Why would we? Colossi are 100 times easier to deal with than storm.
As a Terran I vastly preferred playing vs Chargelot HT. I got to use my multitasking / decision making a lot more. Against Stalker / Collosi it's more about having crisp macro and carefully taking good engagements, which is kinda meh.
edit: the problem in early 2014 was more the fact that Protoss had about 5 different viable openings each with a bunch of variations that could all outright kill Terran, but didn't even have to do direct damage to transition into a macro game. Meanwhile Terran had almost 0 chances of dealing counter damage (there were a few gimmicks but nothing solid, and you almost always had to sacrifice scouting information in order to do so). The Widow Mine change fixed the problem by effectively killing the Zealot / HT midgame, which made it a lot harder for Protoss to transition out of their builds, and Terran also over time got really good and scouting and holding off most of those builds (+ map changes and MsC vision reduction made Blink weaker).
On March 31 2015 04:28 Tenks wrote: I personally hated playing against zealot/templar/archon. It basically felt like I was forced to kite for days and days and days. It wasn't fun even in the least.
Hmm okay, did you not like that because it felt like it hampered your own creativity in the game and didnt allow you to do much else or because kiting just felt too repetitive. How do you feel that it differs from tvz where there is constant splitting and kiting?
On March 31 2015 04:28 Tenks wrote: I personally hated playing against zealot/templar/archon. It basically felt like I was forced to kite for days and days and days. It wasn't fun even in the least.
Hmm okay, did you not like that because it felt like it hampered your own creativity in the game and didnt allow you to do much else or because kiting just felt too repetitive. How do you feel that it differs from tvz where there is constant splitting and kiting?
How is it different? Zerg units actually die as opposed to 3/3/3 Protoss units <.<
Listen, it's a good idea to make the style viable, but you're asking to make the game harder. What about new players? People who don't have a lot of experience? Players who are not as skilled in general? Below a certain level, Terrans don't have the micro to deal with chargelot/archon properly while on the same level A-moving chargelot/archon and hitting a storm occasionally is enough for the Protoss. That has to be taken into consideration before doing anything.
If the Widow Mine was balanced in a way, that you make them vs Zealot/Archon/HT's, but they don't utterly decimate the composition, it would be great for the game IMO. Bio army splitting vs Storms and Zealots+Archons splitting vs Widow Mines. It would create a super interesting positional game aswell.
On March 31 2015 04:28 Tenks wrote: I personally hated playing against zealot/templar/archon. It basically felt like I was forced to kite for days and days and days. It wasn't fun even in the least.
Hmm okay, did you not like that because it felt like it hampered your own creativity in the game and didnt allow you to do much else or because kiting just felt too repetitive. How do you feel that it differs from tvz where there is constant splitting and kiting?
How is it different? Zerg units actually die as opposed to 3/3/3 Protoss units <.<
Listen, it's a good idea to make the style viable, but you're asking to make the game harder. What about new players? People who don't have a lot of experience? Players who are not as skilled in general? Below a certain level, Terrans don't have the micro to deal with chargelot/archon properly while on the same level A-moving chargelot/archon and hitting a storm occasionally is enough for the Protoss. That has to be taken into consideration before doing anything.
This I agree with though, Chargelot Archon is much harder to deal with at lower levels. A move vs a move chargelot archon rapes bio medivac so bad it's not even funny.
On March 31 2015 04:28 Tenks wrote: I personally hated playing against zealot/templar/archon. It basically felt like I was forced to kite for days and days and days. It wasn't fun even in the least.
Hmm okay, did you not like that because it felt like it hampered your own creativity in the game and didnt allow you to do much else or because kiting just felt too repetitive. How do you feel that it differs from tvz where there is constant splitting and kiting?
Current TvP is actually not too different than TvZ engagements. If you ball up you'll take massive AOE and die. Zealot/Archon was completely different. You had to stay in a (mostly) tight ball to minimize Zealot surface area while using Conc Shells to move backwards and eventually whiddle down the Zealot count (which would then immediately get replenished by 12 warp gates at any pylon.)
Colossus may not be the most interesting stuff in the world but to say it is just "Will his stalkers kill my Vikings?" is a very shallow perspective. Yes you have to queue your vikings up on his Colossus but you also have to split away like a madman to maximize concave (and minimize splash) against a limited number of Zealots to eventually hit the soft core of the army which are Stalkers.
On March 31 2015 04:28 Tenks wrote: I personally hated playing against zealot/templar/archon. It basically felt like I was forced to kite for days and days and days. It wasn't fun even in the least.
Hmm okay, did you not like that because it felt like it hampered your own creativity in the game and didnt allow you to do much else or because kiting just felt too repetitive. How do you feel that it differs from tvz where there is constant splitting and kiting?
How is it different? Zerg units actually die as opposed to 3/3/3 Protoss units <.<
Listen, it's a good idea to make the style viable, but you're asking to make the game harder. What about new players? People who don't have a lot of experience? Players who are not as skilled in general? Below a certain level, Terrans don't have the micro to deal with chargelot/archon properly while on the same level A-moving chargelot/archon and hitting a storm occasionally is enough for the Protoss. That has to be taken into consideration before doing anything.
I think these are pretty reasonable points. I actually think that mines drops are pretty fine in pvt, but not very fine against chargelot archon in heads up fights. Perhaps someway for protoss to disable the mines more effectively would be enough to make it viable. If this is the case then we don't need to worry about less skilled players because mines also do terrible terrible damage. This would make it fair for both sides even outside the pro level. Of course this is only one idea. Perhaps there is another way we can about this that can enable chargelot archon at all levels of play fairly. I'm definitely open to suggestions!
I really understand that u want diversity. I think we all want that. For every race. So I am with u in that regard. Cheap replenishable units make for back and forth games (see ZvT). But why are u trying to convince Terrans? They can't change the game. Furthermore, u trying to explain that PvT is very micro intense for both sides with a Zealot/ Archon style. But u haven't explained anything why it's so micro intense for the Protoss side. Positioning HTs is not really micro. And other than to pull ur units back and attack move, there is not much Protoss can do. There is no split or any comparable microtask to do. Place storms and position army so that zealots can fight simultaneously and don't derp. When u engage, then u engage. Or u decide not to. I am not saying there is no micro. But u sound like Protoss has to invest the same attention to micro as Terran has to. And thats what Terrans are complaining about. In terms of diversity, YES! Everyone wants that. Matches are cool to watch? YES! But pls do not try to sell it the way u did.