I've had this opinion for a while and I decided to put my thoughts in a edited 8 minute video to explain what could Blizzard do to make SC2 feel more engaging and fun to play for the casual player base.
Let me know what you think and I'm looking forward to responding to any comments disagreeing or agreeing with my thoughts
On May 03 2015 13:33 insectoceanx wrote: I think the current state of starcraft has more to do with why no one plays.
Every other games gives you incentive for logging in and playing a few games, going from low diamond to masters takes way too long for most casual players.
a more interactive ladder with attainable achievements is a great idea to keep people logging in. i like the idea of a "promotion series" to get your promotion
however, i'm not sure some of your specific suggestions are feasible. that said, i can't think of anything better than the suggestions you've made.
regarding teh "lack of demotion". there was a time when u could get demoted down several league levels in 1 season and unfortunately, here is what happens.
some players intentionally lose a string of games so they get demoted from Diamond/Platinum down to bronze. then they try really hard for the next 3 weeks and bring themselves back to top 8 Platinum or Diamond league where they truly belong. AND THEN, they go on another big intentional losing streak... go down to bronze.. and do it all over again
these players have no intention on doing the hard work required to move from Diamond up to Masters.... they just move up and down the ladder each season. by restricting demotions it curtailed this practise. this was how certain players got the "satisfaction of progress" in ladder play.
In my opinion the Dota system is the best. A simple number. Clear, transparent. Why do I need to see my progression all the time at every step? Why do i need to get rewarded? To keep playing? What keeps you playing in real sports? You dont have a reward system there, your trainer doesnt give you fancy achievements or new stickers every time you show up to training, I, personally, am happy if I see my progression ingame: I can hold allins I used to lose to. I can upgrade quicker, split faster and drop more.
I just dont see how OPs suggestions help. The problem is most players play to win, to rank up. Not to improve, to be good at the game.
LoL ladder system is good for the reasons OP mentioned. It makes you want to play just because 1more win and i get on a promotion series. 2more wins and i get promoted, while on a series. Sure really all of those things are actually just bullshit and your LoL rank is actually just following your hidden MMR trough a rubber band, but there are ways riot hides this. Dota system is good because its clear. Tells you exactly where you are at, no fluff. Sc2 system sucks because its neither. It does not have the carrot on a stick to "fool" you to push harder, and neither is it transparent of showing you where you actually are.
That being said the ladder model is a really minor thing on why people play or do not play the game. Make a good game and people play it, make a shit game and people wont play it.
My thoughts exactly for about 2 years or more. Thanks DesRow. Nice naniwa reference btw.
On May 03 2015 15:51 graNite wrote: In my opinion the Dota system is the best. A simple number. Clear, transparent. Why do I need to see my progression all the time at every step? Why do i need to get rewarded? To keep playing? What keeps you playing in real sports? You dont have a reward system there, your trainer doesnt give you fancy achievements or new stickers every time you show up to training, I, personally, am happy if I see my progression ingame: I can hold allins I used to lose to. I can upgrade quicker, split faster and drop more.
I just dont see how OPs suggestions help. The problem is most players play to win, to rank up. Not to improve, to be good at the game.
Shouldnt that be the main point of the ladder?
You are absolutely right mate, but OP is talking about casuals mostly. And I totally agree they need that to keep playing and may be eventually they will change their attitude. If we need a higher player base then it's clearly a right direction. Anyways. Current state of the ladder in SC2 in horrible. Why not make it better just for the sake of it being better? I do agree though that showing a flat MMR value would be the most elegant and simple solution. I just want to see my world rank. That gives me motivation.
On May 03 2015 15:51 graNite wrote: In my opinion the Dota system is the best. A simple number. Clear, transparent. Why do I need to see my progression all the time at every step? Why do i need to get rewarded? To keep playing? What keeps you playing in real sports? You dont have a reward system there, your trainer doesnt give you fancy achievements or new stickers every time you show up to training, I, personally, am happy if I see my progression ingame: I can hold allins I used to lose to. I can upgrade quicker, split faster and drop more.
I just dont see how OPs suggestions help. The problem is most players play to win, to rank up. Not to improve, to be good at the game.
Shouldnt that be the main point of the ladder?
He talks about casuals in his original post. You think a casual is going to progress and learn all that crap in a week of play time? 2 weeks? 3? It's going to take a casual a week just to pass campaign missions, then when a casual tries to finally play on the ladder(since it's mostly what anyone does nowadays other than arcade), he's going to play someone like you and not want to play anymore.
Of course Starcraft2 hardcore's don't want anything other than ladder. This thread is not for you granite.
On May 03 2015 15:51 graNite wrote: In my opinion the Dota system is the best. A simple number. Clear, transparent. Why do I need to see my progression all the time at every step? Why do i need to get rewarded? To keep playing? What keeps you playing in real sports? You dont have a reward system there, your trainer doesnt give you fancy achievements or new stickers every time you show up to training, I, personally, am happy if I see my progression ingame: I can hold allins I used to lose to. I can upgrade quicker, split faster and drop more.
I just dont see how OPs suggestions help. The problem is most players play to win, to rank up. Not to improve, to be good at the game.
Shouldnt that be the main point of the ladder?
He talks about casuals in his original post. You think a casual is going to progress and learn all that crap in a week of play time? 2 weeks? 3? It's going to take a casual a week just to pass campaign missions, then when a casual tries to finally play on the ladder(since it's mostly what anyone does nowadays other than arcade), he's going to play someone like you and not want to play anymore.
Of course Starcraft2 hardcore's don't want anything other than ladder. This thread is not for you granite.
I dont consider myself hardcore, but ok. I was thinking of the casuals, too. I want them to play because they like the game and have fun playing it, not because they want to get a fancy icon or achievements. These things are nice to have, but should they be the main factor?
If someone starts to play ladder, he will play other players of his skill level, why would he get crushed and get discouraged?
On May 03 2015 15:51 graNite wrote: In my opinion the Dota system is the best. A simple number. Clear, transparent. Why do I need to see my progression all the time at every step? Why do i need to get rewarded? To keep playing? What keeps you playing in real sports? You dont have a reward system there, your trainer doesnt give you fancy achievements or new stickers every time you show up to training, I, personally, am happy if I see my progression ingame: I can hold allins I used to lose to. I can upgrade quicker, split faster and drop more.
I just dont see how OPs suggestions help. The problem is most players play to win, to rank up. Not to improve, to be good at the game.
Shouldnt that be the main point of the ladder?
He talks about casuals in his original post. You think a casual is going to progress and learn all that crap in a week of play time? 2 weeks? 3? It's going to take a casual a week just to pass campaign missions, then when a casual tries to finally play on the ladder(since it's mostly what anyone does nowadays other than arcade), he's going to play someone like you and not want to play anymore.
Of course Starcraft2 hardcore's don't want anything other than ladder. This thread is not for you granite.
Yet again Dota draws tons of casual players despite showing the MMR only. The truth is that if you're really a casual player, you don't even care about leagues or mmr, you just play for fun. I don't think the problem of sc2 is the ladder as much as the difficulty of the rts genre, and the fact that it's not f2p.
On May 03 2015 15:51 graNite wrote: In my opinion the Dota system is the best. A simple number. Clear, transparent. Why do I need to see my progression all the time at every step? Why do i need to get rewarded? To keep playing? What keeps you playing in real sports? You dont have a reward system there, your trainer doesnt give you fancy achievements or new stickers every time you show up to training, I, personally, am happy if I see my progression ingame: I can hold allins I used to lose to. I can upgrade quicker, split faster and drop more.
I just dont see how OPs suggestions help. The problem is most players play to win, to rank up. Not to improve, to be good at the game.
Shouldnt that be the main point of the ladder?
He talks about casuals in his original post. You think a casual is going to progress and learn all that crap in a week of play time? 2 weeks? 3? It's going to take a casual a week just to pass campaign missions, then when a casual tries to finally play on the ladder(since it's mostly what anyone does nowadays other than arcade), he's going to play someone like you and not want to play anymore.
Of course Starcraft2 hardcore's don't want anything other than ladder. This thread is not for you granite.
Yet again Dota draws tons of casual players despite showing the MMR only. The truth is that if you're really a casual player, you don't even care about leagues or mmr, you just play for fun. I don't think the problem of sc2 is the ladder as much as the difficulty of the rts genre, and the fact that it's not f2p.
and yet again Starcraft2 draws in quite a crowd of confused and interested casuals as well despite being one of the most difficult games to get. The truth is, a casual will play ANY game, you're missing the point that DesRow is trying to make: the casuals that play sc2 don't play to stay, they just play, and they encounter a wall, and they move on. They really don't have anything to keep them on sc2 other than just improving, or getting to a higher league, shit, casuals don't know what the fuck MMR is, they think that's a spell in the game or something("Hey lol, what's MMR? is that a build order??? Marines mauraders ravens??"); Dota is just a popular game with magic and heroes, who doesn't love that shit?
I'm not gonna lie I'm really addicted to daily quests and it takes me the decision to say, I'm not gonna succumb to this, to stop playing. I'm super freaking hyped on LotV right now and would never think about playing a game like Hearthstone. But the Daily Quest makes me log in, when I'm in it shows me what's up, ex. an expansion was just released, so now I look into it, I see that there's an achievement for beating heroic mode and now I just got rewarded new cards that I want to see in real play. It really sucks you in, so if a similar system could be achieved in SC2 it would be great.
The ladder system could definitely also be improved upon, however, being able to drop games, or if cheesing becomes better for ranking up quickly, because quicker games, it could also really destroy it.
On May 03 2015 15:51 graNite wrote: In my opinion the Dota system is the best. A simple number. Clear, transparent.
Yes.
Scrap leagues, end this whole promotion, demotion, and "I'm not in the league that I'm suppose to be in" charade.
What do you mean? so are bronze skilled players supposed to get match with Pros or GMs?
No. Match the same way, but show a number to the players instead of leagues and meaningless divisions.
You can have both. I really liked the ICCUP system where you get a number and every 100 pts it changes to a higher rank, D- D D+ C- etc. Having less distance between promotions is nice and having your flag and a rank within your nation was another cool feature. Division ranks in sc2 are dumb and meaningless, I'd much prefer to see server rank. Feels like you're making tangible inroads towards a new high rank, which you can also lose, rather than sitting in diamond/masters forever. Once I hit masters in SC2 I lost all motivation as I was never going to get GM playing casually.
On May 03 2015 15:51 graNite wrote: In my opinion the Dota system is the best. A simple number. Clear, transparent.
Yes.
Scrap leagues, end this whole promotion, demotion, and "I'm not in the league that I'm suppose to be in" charade.
What do you mean? so are bronze skilled players supposed to get match with Pros or GMs?
No. Match the same way, but show a number to the players instead of leagues and meaningless divisions.
You can have both. I really liked the ICCUP system where you get a number and every 100 pts it changes to a higher rank, D- D D+ C- etc. Having less distance between promotions is nice and having your flag and a rank within your nation was another cool feature. Division ranks in sc2 are dumb and meaningless, I'd much prefer to see server rank. Feels like you're making tangible inroads towards a new high rank, which you can also lose, rather than sitting in diamond/masters forever. Once I hit masters in SC2 I lost all motivation as I was never going to get GM playing casually.
Your last point about never hitting GM and losing all motivation is huge. So many players once they got to masters called it a day because they had nothing else exciting happening outside of the actual games.
On May 03 2015 18:57 F0nze wrote: The truth is, a casual will play ANY game, you're missing the point that DesRow is trying to make: the casuals that play sc2 don't play to stay, they just play, and they encounter a wall, and they move on. They really don't have anything to keep them on sc2 other than just improving, or getting to a higher league, shit, casuals don't know what the fuck MMR is,
remember back when multiple League Demotions were permitted in 1 season.. u could go from Diamond to Bronze if u lost enough... i know casuals who created their own progression system.
they kept intentionally losing until they got demoted down to bronze. then they started trying again for a few weeks.. and got themselves back into Diamond.
there own little home made progression system.
i'm pretty sure this is why Blizz limits demotions now to at most 1 league level per season.