Reminder once again that the show starts at 5:00pm EDT today on www.twitch.tv/JohnSC2 !
We will be taking some questions at the end of the show from Twitter (@TLStrategyChat), the Twitch chat, and also questions from this thread (in case you can't make the show). If you can't make it today, we understand . VoDs and audio recordings will be posted so that you can enjoy it in your spare time ^^.
P.S. Shiroiusagi made us an absolutely incredible overlay in a single day. Everyone should send a thank you note to her for being TL's graphics wizard :D.
Nice show today. I'm looking forward to the vods in the op.
I have some ideas and questions I would like to hear feedback on. So I guess the two new ideas to implement for fun I'm throwing around that not too many people seem to notice are having a clan ladder system and a casual ladder with more game options. I proposed a way to implement more game options by having additional tech items, Tech and ability vetoes. This way there is a bit more strategy going into the matches. My thread is here.
While my thread is one specific way to implement these key ideas. (I'm still making the pictures for the thread.) I'm wondering what your thoughts are on having a Casual ladder with more options. A clan ladder, where you can challenge other clans? Clan Observer modes? Daily tournaments? maps with additional constraints? purchaseable items in the game? Purchasable tournament replays? More committed tech tree options? Tech vetoes? ability vetoes? More abilities per units with added cost?
On June 29 2015 10:59 Bodzilla wrote: Wheres the vods?
We're having a few technical difficulties, and it's taking longer than expected to upload them to Youtube. However! they should be up by tomorrow evening at the latest ^^.
EDIT: We'll be making an official archive thread as well, so no need to worry about checking back here over and over again.
missed it because of kantu, watched the vod though, enjoyed it and seems to have potential. if you guys ever want to talk about map specific strategies I'd love to be part of it.
Am the only one that things Whitewing sounds a tiny bit like Peter griffin? Good even if you guys do the typical TL thing and argue over the definition of a word before talking about fixing a problem.
On June 30 2015 00:43 Ovid wrote: Am the only one that things Whitewing sounds a tiny bit like Peter griffin? Good even if you guys do the typical TL thing and argue over the definition of a word before talking about fixing a problem.
You gotta make sure everyone's on the right page before you can get down to business.
Im surprised you guys argueed so much about the definition of hard counter. It is so simple for me: When talking about units: A hard counter is a unit that no matter how the enemy plays theirs is always going to win,
Immortal tank is the best case. It doesn't matter if you got more tanks, it doesnt matter how well you play your tanks, you will always going to lose against immortals, and you'll need to transition out of them.
A soft counter unit would be marines and mutas, or thors and mutas. Marines and thors both counter mutas, yes, but they don't forc you out of doing mutas. When they get into the field you'll have a harder time with your mutas, but if you are good enough, you can still do tons of stuff with them, harrass, poke, pick off lonely units etc.
Phoenix vs mutas is another hard counter. Once the protoss got phoenix with range forget you even have mutas.
This is ofcourse talking about single units, but what about compositions?
Well a hard counter composition would be Colossus+Templar+gateway units against Hydra roach. At that point no matter how well you play you are going to lose, unless you transition or add other units like vipers and stuff.
A soft counter would be Colossus+templar vs MMM. While AoE counters bio, it doesn't force you out of it, you don't need to transition or lose. While bio is going to have a harder time, a MMM player can still win.
Basically, a soft counter doesn't force you out of a unit/comp inmediately, you still can do stuff with your units, in short they arent completely countered,
On July 02 2015 03:22 [Phantom] wrote: Im surprised you guys argueed so much about the definition of hard counter. It is so simple for me: When talking about units: A hard counter is a unit that no matter how the enemy plays theirs is always going to win,
Immortal tank is the best case. It doesn't matter if you got more tanks, it doesnt matter how well you play your tanks, you will always going to lose against immortals, and you'll need to transition out of them.
A soft counter unit would be marines and mutas, or thors and mutas. Marines and thors both counter mutas, yes, but they don't forc you out of doing mutas. When they get into the field you'll have a harder time with your mutas, but if you are good enough, you can still do tons of stuff with them, harrass, poke, pick off lonely units etc.
Phoenix vs mutas is another hard counter. Once the protoss got phoenix with range forget you even have mutas.
This is ofcourse talking about single units, but what about compositions?
Well a hard counter composition would be Colossus+Templar+gateway units against Hydra roach. At that point no matter how well you play you are going to lose, unless you transition or add other units like vipers and stuff.
A soft counter would be Colossus+templar vs MMM. While AoE counters bio, it doesn't force you out of it, you don't need to transition or lose. While bio is going to have a harder time, a MMM player can still win.
Basically, a soft counter doesn't force you out of a unit/comp inmediately, you still can do stuff with your units, in short they arent completely countered,
But no such unit exists, and context matters heavily. 10 tanks crush 1 immortal. If you're caught by the supposed 'hard counter', you can just delay to get other units out. Imagine if you've got 10 tanks vs 10 immortals, and you know your opponent is going to make more immortals, so you retreat while pumping out hellbats. The hellbats then shield your tanks and stop the immortals from walking up, and you do much better in the fight. There are so many possible moves, which is why discussing unit on unit in a vacuum is pointless.
That's why hard counters aren't a problem in terms of units, but they are a problem in terms of game design on a larger scale if designed poorly. One unit hard countering another is good in game design, because it prevents optimal strategies from becoming *Mass unit X*.
Thus, why in the discussion I pointed out that a hard counter is a strategical move which gives you a significant win rate over what your opponent is doing. Therefore, with that definition, the existence of hard counter strategies is only problematic if the notion exists within the Nash Equlibrium. Since that isn't the case, hard counters are not inherently problematic. Combined with the fog of war which allows players to attempt to break a Nash Equilbrium with a sub-optimal move for potential payout (which is a risky but potentially very rewarding move), hard counters allow for matchups to be more than just purely standard play.
The point is, there's more to a game like Starcraft than just the units, and any discussion which defines a hard counter in terms of units is limiting itself to a scope that ignores many important facets of the game.