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On November 28 2015 13:52 bigbadgreen wrote:Show nested quote +I do remember 5-rax reaper! But considering nerfs were applied to make that problem no longer apply, I hardly see the relevance. while not the same 5 rax reaper, have you seen the new 3 rax reaper. I would argue that controlled correctly under the current meta that it is way too strong. now avilo wants to add an upgrade that adds to the versatility of reapers so that you can win the game outright with a 3-4 rax reaper build. This is like asking for lings to be able to climb walls after an upgrade at the hatch. to be fair 3 rax reaper is just catching on and I've yet to see anybody control it to the level it could be but I do see the potential for it. I think the bigger reason for the thread devolving into avilo dismissal is because of all the balance whine he does. I don't know if he's playing a character or if he's serious when he is streaming. All I know is that the handful of times I have tuned in it devolves into a balance whine before the 3rd game. I don't tune in anymore because of it and I can't take him seriously because of it. Even decent suggestions are met with my knowing that there is an underlying motive to make T mech superior to anyting else. But avilo wants to nerf the grenade, one of the biggest reasons that 3 rax reaper is so strong now, while adding an upgrade that you can't reach until factory and tech lab, far too late for any current 3 or 4 rax reaper build. If you want an analogy, it's like wanting lings to be able to climb cliffs at lair tech, except first you have to imagine a world in which zerglings are really bad for anything except early ling scouts or 1-base zergling all-ins, so that such an upgrade to encourage late-game viability might actually have some legitimate reason to be added. Turns out analogies break when you take them too far, huh?
Given that it's a thread about balance, it hardly seems like a big problem that avilo frequently discusses balance. In a stream, that might be an undesirable quality. but it's unreasonable to expect your balance thread posters to not talk about balance very much. If you disagree with his opinions, for instance because they make mech too strong, why not just talk about why?
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On November 28 2015 14:29 ledarsi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 13:58 BoX wrote: Not to nit-pick or anything, but to be sure.. What we want is to nerf Zerg, nerf Protoss, and buff Terran, right?
On a serious thought though.. Would you take this trade: reinstate siege tech research and make tanks have to be unsieged to load them into a dropship, and in exchange, you get back their original BW damage value? Absolutely, I would take that trade instantly without question. And I would be a happy camper to do so. However, I suspect that 70 splash damage Siege Tanks would actually be OP with smart fire. Probably need to make it a projectile with a time delay, and increase their range so the target gets hit at the same point in time they would be hit at currently. That way the tanks will actually overkill, since other tanks will fire while the first shots are in the air but before they hit.
Yeah I noticed that right off the bat when I played WOL. Tanks just OBLITERATE ground units in SC2 because they don't overkill much. I'm not saying the improved AI was a bad thing, but it is something I'd like to see toyed with by blizzard.. Tricky edits like that, IMO, are what the game could really benefit from.
I'm really worn out with (or tired of?) nerf/nerf/buff/nerf responses when they're blunt changes in response to problems. Often, they don't fix problems but instead they shift them. If you know what I mean?
Siege Tanks are a good example. Trying to make them fit into the game's framework by reducing damage, messing with research, stuff like that doesn't seem to work out so well. Subtle changes tend to have better results, like tweaking the intelligence, or nature of a units(or many units) behavior, rather than the units stats (dmg, armor, health, speed, cost, etc).
Maybe deathballs are deathballs because the units are so damn good at killing eachother. Maybe they ought to be dumber? None of this is probably new when it comes to balance discussion, but whatevs.
edit: it's kind of amusing to think about.. but i wonder if the developers of this game include misbehavior/stupidity when they build units? Instead of making tanks really smart, they make them kinda smart with an acceptable level of stupid? I dunno about you, but I like me some dumb tanks.
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SoCal8898 Posts
the way i am reading this is "nerf zerg and protoss things that bother me, but buff terran, we need no nerfs."
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On November 28 2015 13:52 bigbadgreen wrote:Show nested quote +I do remember 5-rax reaper! But considering nerfs were applied to make that problem no longer apply, I hardly see the relevance. while not the same 5 rax reaper, have you seen the new 3 rax reaper. I would argue that controlled correctly under the current meta that it is way too strong. now avilo wants to add an upgrade that adds to the versatility of reapers so that you can win the game outright with a 3-4 rax reaper build. This is like asking for lings to be able to climb walls after an upgrade at the hatch. to be fair 3 rax reaper is just catching on and I've yet to see anybody control it to the level it could be but I do see the potential for it. I think the bigger reason for the thread devolving into avilo dismissal is because of all the balance whine he does. I don't know if he's playing a character or if he's serious when he is streaming. All I know is that the handful of times I have tuned in it devolves into a balance whine before the 3rd game. I don't tune in anymore because of it and I can't take him seriously because of it. Even decent suggestions are met with my knowing that there is an underlying motive to make T mech superior to anyting else.
Holy fuck. No that is not what is written in fine print in the OP my god lol.
Back in my day kids on da TL forums used to read OPs, and then have intelligent discussions about the points made.
First of all, the part in my OP i wrote about the reaper overall is a concern that reapers are only used in all-in builds and gimmicks in the first 2 minutes of the game...can anyone argue against this? Is there ever a situation where you suddenly decide mid game instead of building bio units you're gonna make a random 10 reapers to add to your army?
That is my point. An ability like the current reaper grenade is really bad for the game because it only makes the reaper worthwhile to all-in with in the first minutes of the game and then you never build this unit again for the entirety of the game.
So i simply OFFERED a suggestion on a POSSIBLE way to make the reaper more relevant as a unit a Terran could decide he wants to produce mid-game to harrass with. The suggestion i offered would be to remove the current bomb period, and have a new one as an upgrade at the tech lab, with factory prerequisite so that it is not abusable early game with mass reapers. But strong enough that mid-game a reaper might actually be worth making!
You could believe that suggestion is horseshit, or that it would be healthy gameplay and cool - there's many things Blizzard could do with it, my point is that it's pretty unhealthy gameplay that the reaper is only usable in the first two minutes of an SC2 game and even worse that it's only useful in a few all-in oriented builds. Is that fair to say? I think so.
As for mech, at pro level there really is no strategic diversity when it comes to Terran for the longest time. 99% of pro games have been bio...especially versus Protoss. And sure, mech vs Z/T at the end of HOTS was becoming more common...but it was still the sit there and turtle for 30 min mech into mass ravens.
Mech has never been made into a reliable and viable strategy by blizzard, and constantly has received nerfs directly or indirectly over the years. And currently LOTV makes mech EVEN WORSE than before, which says a lot in itself.
A lot of people want strategic diversity for pro level SC2. That is my only underlying motive behind bringing up mech viability. There should be multiple viable strategies in a strategy game. Imagine if every single pro LoL game you were forced into playing Kassadin mid or watching it...not too exciting. But if there are a lot of things you can pick from and spectators can watch...the game is infinitely more exciting and unpredictable for spectators.
That's why people always go fucking batshit insane watching pro level SC2 TvP games where a Terran "tried to go mech." "HOLY FUCK HE'S GOING MECH. GET ARTOSIS ON THE PHONE IT'S HAPPENING." It's because you get excited seeing something that is different from the 99% of bio games where you can commentate the game before the game has even started.
"He's going to go 1 rax reaper FE, into 3 rax, into 5 rax into a 3rd CC getting his 1/1 and do a double medivac drop..." does this sound familiar? It's 99% of professional level TvP games since the game has been out with very little deviation.
Can you say i am biased in wanting the siege tank to not suck? Hell yes you can. Because i play this game a hell of a lot and love watching it and would love to see the game have more strategic options than to only go marine marauder every game
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TBH Avilo you're a fucking retard and don't deserve the attention of any forum regarding SC2 go back to your hole and scrub out some more loses versus all the map hackers
User was warned for this post
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You don't have to confirm your metal bias, avilo. Seems your name is almost interchangeable with "the frustrated feeling you get when all your factories can do is mass produce tears "
I think that every SC2 player/observer would agree though. Metal is pretty much a damn hallmark of what it meant/means to be a Terran player.. And the entire game would be more fun if it was viable again. It'd almost be like adding a fourth race in a sense.
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On November 28 2015 14:57 Felony wrote: TBH Avilo you're a fucking retard and don't deserve the attention of any forum regarding SC2 go back to your hole and scrub out some more loses versus all the map hackers See what I mean when I say people say shit to avilo that would seem bannable if they said it to anybody else?
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On November 28 2015 15:21 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 14:57 Felony wrote: TBH Avilo you're a fucking retard and don't deserve the attention of any forum regarding SC2 go back to your hole and scrub out some more loses versus all the map hackers See what I mean when I say people say shit to avilo that would seem bannable if they said it to anybody else? yes^^
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"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
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Ban me please I will happily take it considering it came from a comment describing how bad Avilo is
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 28 2015 14:45 BluemoonSC wrote: the way i am reading this is "nerf zerg and protoss things that bother me, but buff terran, we need no nerfs." Because it's largely true. Even internal Blizzard analytics are showing Terran as weak according to DK.
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On November 28 2015 17:07 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 14:45 BluemoonSC wrote: the way i am reading this is "nerf zerg and protoss things that bother me, but buff terran, we need no nerfs." Because it's largely true. Even internal Blizzard analytics are showing Terran as weak according to DK.
While I agree with that Terran is weak I would like a source for this.
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SoCal8898 Posts
On November 28 2015 17:07 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 14:45 BluemoonSC wrote: the way i am reading this is "nerf zerg and protoss things that bother me, but buff terran, we need no nerfs." Because it's largely true. Even internal Blizzard analytics are showing Terran as weak according to DK.
if its true, its not for the reasons that avilo outlines.
and if you ever watch avilo play starcraft, you'll notice that he plays the same way no matter what his opponent is doing, so any information on balance from him is usually to be disregarded.
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Just some feedback, I would take this post much more seriously if you spoke to some of the issues with terran as well as the other races.
I like the avilo that speaks to all things.
Props on the community feedback mock, that got me a chuckle.
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