Community Feedback Update - February 4 - Page 15
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
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Paramisery
10 Posts
At least this is how its always been, truth be told i haven't played lotv, the more i saw of it the less interested i got, which is sad because i love starcraft, but this game doesn't seem fun to me. | ||
InfCereal
Canada1740 Posts
Swarm hosts are very good against things that don't fire back | ||
Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 13 2016 00:17 TimeSpiral wrote: Why, Dino? Why?! Units that can be built from the barracks: Marine, Marauder, Reaper, Ghost. Units that can be built from the Gateway / Warpgate (or are directly derived): Zealot, Adept, Stalker, Sentry, High Templar, Dark Templar, Archon. Gateway units fucking shrecktify barracks units in so many situations. Adepts are ridiculously strong in the early game and gliaves makes them meaty DPS units later on. Chargelots do guaranteed damage now and also mitigate DPS by forcing micro, the Stalker is a skill unit, the Sentry is a crowd control / DPS mitigating spellcaster, High Templar obviously has splash with Storm, Dark Templar is advanced late-game harass / early-game cheese, and the Archon is a front-line auto-healing super tank with splash damage ... I'm not saying barrack units are bad, or even much worse, but "Gateway is weak" is a fucking absurd argument. It is just a fact that Gateway units are strong. It is part of the racial identity: slightly more expensive, slightly stronger. Why even bother arguing against this? It's because people think the Medivac comes from the barracks. Smh. The "Gateway tech is late vs Barracks tech is early" myth - Nobody rushes Stim. Very few plays rush combat shields. Shells aren't even a thing anymore. Plus, stim is actually useless unless you've teched to starport and started dumping gas into medivacs. This is well into the mid-game. Meanwhile, it's not uncommon to see Twilight openers with robos or with Stargate, it's practically standard! I'm actually asking you to give it up, Dino. Just give it up. You're wrong, unless you're going to double-down and say that some Protoss players are opening Gateway and that's it. No robo, no Stargate. Nothing. Just Gateway. And then, for some reason, are taking fights versus Stimmed bio with Starport support out in the open. Lol. Please. If you're going to compare an entire racial composition (i.e., bio with starport support) to one tech path for Protoss "Gateway" that's fine, but it's just a weird thing to do. But even then, Chargelot Archon HT with Stalker support can do reasonably well against MMM and you know it. Then if Ghosts come out it's pretty nice for Toss to have one of their other point-and-click AOE death spells : ) It's a pretty good match up right now, with maybe a few problems on both sides, but the balance leaning slightly in Protoss's favor. Dialing back the Marauder nerf is probably a good idea, especially if they're removing the tank again. A more meaningful Adept nerf, and I don't know if anything can be done about tempest rush on certain maps : / I completely agree with most of what you say. Just 1 disagreement among that.. Plus, stim is actually useless unless you've teched to starport and started dumping gas into medivacs. This is well into the mid-game. In LotV, medivacs are usually available in mere minutes. I would not call that "well in to mid-game". Your overall point is still valid about the strength of the units. But medivacs are usually in production extremely early - pretty much as soon as most of the gateway units become available, medivacs are already in production. | ||
TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On February 13 2016 03:34 Spyridon wrote: I completely agree with most of what you say. Just 1 disagreement among that.. In LotV, medivacs are usually available in mere minutes. I would not call that "well in to mid-game". Your overall point is still valid about the strength of the units. But medivacs are usually in production extremely early - pretty much as soon as most of the gateway units become available, medivacs are already in production. Fair. I guess we're all still learning what the "mid-game" is to some extent. And in this particular match up (TvP), you'll often have a third CC right around the time you're building medivacs. That feels mid-game-ish to me. The standard opener is reactor on the rax, and then you tech, and your first couple units from the startport are usually Liberators (because Stim isn't finished yet). Medivacs and Stim are even further delayed by the need to build a usually one cyclone. You could definitely skip the cyclone and the liberators and rush medivacs, but you won't have stim yet, and if you do, you probably won't have enough units to survive the potential 2-base attack from Toss. I guess my overarching point was that in LotV, in TvP especially, stim and medivacs have been pushed back from their HotS timing because of the need for mass marine / cyclone to "not die" and then the extra CC to "not die and fall behind economically" which is a thing right now in TvP. | ||
Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 13 2016 04:10 TimeSpiral wrote: Fair. I guess we're all still learning what the "mid-game" is to some extent. And in this particular match up (TvP), you'll often have a third CC right around the time you're building medivacs. That feels mid-game-ish to me. The standard opener is reactor on the rax, and then you tech, and your first couple units from the startport are usually Liberators (because Stim isn't finished yet). Medivacs and Stim are even further delayed by the need to build a usually one cyclone. You could definitely skip the cyclone and the liberators and rush medivacs, but you won't have stim yet, and if you do, you probably won't have enough units to survive the potential 2-base attack from Toss. I guess my overarching point was that in LotV, in TvP especially, stim and medivacs have been pushed back from their HotS timing because of the need for mass marine / cyclone to "not die" and then the extra CC to "not die and fall behind economically" which is a thing right now in TvP. Yep... As I stated your point is still valid. It's just that the economy ramps up so fast in LotV, the lines between early and midgame have been blurred. Which imo, inadvertently causes many of the balance issues we're seeing in game these days. Your not really strategically trying to buy your time with your T1/T1.5 units for a few mins to reach the midgame tech anymore, it's basically already in process/production by the time your T1/1.5 tech is available. Not very much time to utilize the early game units, as by the time you get there production is nearly completed for your opponent. Taking this in to consideration with your example, from a design perspective it doesn't really make sense that stim is not available until after liberator, which in theory should be much later tech. The later tech is available first (so therefore becomes priority), and then you need to play catch-up with the T1 tech to be able to assist the late tech, rather than a natural progression through the tech tree. | ||
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Gateway units ALONE are bad against MMM (that last M being MEDIVACS). That's what I've been saying. Unless you have overwhelming numbers, Zealots/Stalkers/Adepts/DTs/Sentries/Archons will never win a straight up fight against MMM. And they shouldn't. You should need to build support units like Disruptors, Colossi, and Templar. The issue is with the mobility of the support units. Medivacs are fast and fly. They can keep up with the bio. Disruptors and Templar are not very mobile. Also, they can't be warped in. So they can't always be with the gateway units. So oftentimes fights happen when Gateway units need to face off against MMM without their supporting units. And in those cases, they get shrekt. That's where "gateway units are bad" comes from. EDIT - also when Terran loses a fight they can boost away their medivacs, saving their vital support units. When Protoss loses a fight, the expensive support units are much harder to save due to their low mobility. So for the next fight you have MMM again against gateway units but with fewer support units or even Templar with no energy. | ||
Lexender
Mexico2611 Posts
On February 17 2016 05:58 DinoMight wrote: I've never said Gateway units are outright bad. Gateway units ALONE are bad against MMM (that last M being MEDIVACS). That's what I've been saying. Unless you have overwhelming numbers, Zealots/Stalkers/Adepts/DTs/Sentries/Archons will never win a straight up fight against MMM. And they shouldn't. You should need to build support units like Disruptors, Colossi, and Templar. The issue is with the mobility of the support units. Medivacs are fast and fly. They can keep up with the bio. Disruptors and Templar are not very mobile. Also, they can't be warped in. So they can't always be with the gateway units. So oftentimes fights happen when Gateway units need to face off against MMM without their supporting units. And in those cases, they get shrekt. That's where "gateway units are bad" comes from. EDIT - also when Terran loses a fight they can boost away their medivacs, saving their vital support units. When Protoss loses a fight, the expensive support units are much harder to save due to their low mobility. So for the next fight you have MMM again against gateway units but with fewer support units or even Templar with no energy. If both have their critical upgrades (stim,cs, concusive vs charge,glaive,blink) I'd wouldn't really know if that would be the case, adepts with glaive deal with marines very well, blink stalkers can chase running medivacs (and this have been the case since HotS and even WoL, so don't tell me terrans can run risk free with all their stuff) archons to tank/splash and some guardian shield, wich is actually very good since marines only do 6 damage and marauders are affected twice by it. It say gateway units have more than a good chance to deal with MMM very well, add storm/feed back and you could get a very strong army of pure gateway units. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On February 17 2016 05:58 DinoMight wrote: I've never said Gateway units are outright bad. Gateway units ALONE are bad against MMM (that last M being MEDIVACS). That's what I've been saying. Unless you have overwhelming numbers, Zealots/Stalkers/Adepts/DTs/Sentries/Archons will never win a straight up fight against MMM. And they shouldn't. You should need to build support units like Disruptors, Colossi, and Templar. The issue is with the mobility of the support units. Medivacs are fast and fly. They can keep up with the bio. Disruptors and Templar are not very mobile. Also, they can't be warped in. So they can't always be with the gateway units. So oftentimes fights happen when Gateway units need to face off against MMM without their supporting units. And in those cases, they get shrekt. That's where "gateway units are bad" comes from. EDIT - also when Terran loses a fight they can boost away their medivacs, saving their vital support units. When Protoss loses a fight, the expensive support units are much harder to save due to their low mobility. So for the next fight you have MMM again against gateway units but with fewer support units or even Templar with no energy. last time I checked high templars were produced from gateways/warpgates. | ||
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Templar are slow and don't spawn with enough energy to cast storm. So they're not available as part of a quick defensive/offensive warpin. Also a pure gateway army can absolutely not fight a Terran bio based army. Not with Liberators and Widow Mines. Not on even economic terms, at least. Blinking under Liberators = instant death for all your Stalkers. Adepts can't outrange Mines. It's just bad news. | ||
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2611 Posts
On February 17 2016 07:32 DinoMight wrote: Sigh it's like you guys don't even read my posts. Templar are slow and don't spawn with enough energy to cast storm. So they're not available as part of a quick defensive/offensive warpin. Also a pure gateway army can absolutely not fight a Terran bio based army. Not with Liberators and Widow Mines. Not on even economic terms, at least. Blinking under Liberators = instant death for all your Stalkers. Adepts can't outrange Mines. It's just bad news. The discussion was never about that, you said a pure gateway army couldn't fight MMM in equal terms, nothing about mines/libs or about having the gateway army being instantly warped and usable. Those 2 are other discussion. | ||
90ti
United States100 Posts
On February 17 2016 07:14 Charoisaur wrote: last time I checked high templars were produced from gateways/warpgates. i'm guessing you started playing post WOL? | ||
Phredxor
New Zealand15075 Posts
May as well say roaches can't beat void rays. | ||
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
The part about all Protoss' support units dying in a fight but not the Medivacs is by far the more important one. In theory pure gateway should not have to fight MMM but in practice it does because if Protoss ever loses a fight everything gets reset. | ||
90ti
United States100 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2611 Posts
On February 17 2016 12:10 DinoMight wrote: The point about Liberators and Widow Mines was not the important part. The part about all Protoss' support units dying in a fight but not the Medivacs is by far the more important one. In theory pure gateway should not have to fight MMM but in practice it does because if Protoss ever loses a fight everything gets reset. I've tested pure gateway vs MMM on the unit tester and if both sides have critical upgrades (glaive,stim,etc) a pure gateway army (zealot,stalker,adept, sentry) can defeat a MMM army pretty well, with varying results depending on compositions, but always on equal or close to equal supply/resources. Go ahead and see for youself, I've tested many compositions and get the same results. | ||
seemsgood
5527 Posts
Supply never one side favor for terran anymore. | ||
TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On February 17 2016 07:32 DinoMight wrote: Sigh it's like you guys don't even read my posts. Templar are slow and don't spawn with enough energy to cast storm. So they're not available as part of a quick defensive/offensive warpin. Also a pure gateway army can absolutely not fight a Terran bio based army. Not with Liberators and Widow Mines. Not on even economic terms, at least. Blinking under Liberators = instant death for all your Stalkers. Adepts can't outrange Mines. It's just bad news. It's because I already won the argument. It's a particularly robust myth that Gateway units are "weak" (implying, weaker than Bio play), and is even less true in LotV than it ever was in HotS or WoL. So every once in a while we have to explain it out in a thorough way. It's always conditional. | ||
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