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Hi everybody,
I'm gonna talk about meta here. Not about balance.
I'm concerned about the TvZ being back to a BLfestor period meta. Not balance wise, but meta wise. Similarity lies in the ravagers, that somehow takes the role of the 2012 infestor : very strong in defense, but kinda risky to attack with because you have no way to save them if you loose the fight. On the other hand, T3 got buffed so hard (ultra/crackling/BL/viper) that if zerg gets 3/3 and hive tech, he can pretty much crush any army terran gets out. Terran got a huge mid game and early game buff. The constant threat of reaper allin in early game forces zerg to be carefull. 6+ liberators deny any attempt to build more that 10-15 mutas, and tankivac allows terran to harass with tanks (and save ALL the gaz heavy units from a failed fight with a lift and a boost).
So yeah, I think TvZ meta, especially in EU and NA, is shifting towards a TvZ were terran plays on a timer with strong harass and engagement options, while zerg basically tries to secure 4 bases and go up to T3. As a whole, I suppose it'd be nice if TvZ wasn't that onesided, agression wise. We had 6 months of BLfestor era where the meta was about terran playing on an agression timer while zerg had to camp or go for an allin (violet push 2012, nydus/ravager allin 2016), even though balance was more onesided (I'd really like to leave balance out of this).
What are you guys thoughts about TvZ meta ?
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The game is still brand new, back I think it was a month or two ago going ling bling muta was considered suicide as opposed to going ravagers. People will learn mech is still fucking good and the meta will adjust accordingly with both races having various options against the other. I wouldn't be too worried
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I think you spot some very superficial similarities between infestors and ravagers. Behind that, your claims of a new 2012 metagame are spurious, period. The rest of what changed in LOTV make the matchup metagame much more back-and-forth with tons more opportunities for counterplay. You talk about tankivacs, but miss how this is new compared to 2012, a mobile Terran siege tank in bio play.
My biggest gripe is you pretend the similarities to 2012. It's true that the lategame Zerg buffs make 3/6 ultras and 3/3 cracklings more concerning. Vipers BL Corruptor are better. There it ends. 2016 has that, 2012 also had that, therefore let's write a Back to the Future redux? No, the unit compositions have changed, the tactics are very different, the relative strengths in midgame has changed.
This is not the new broodlord/infestor era. It deserves its own analysis of an "aggression timer"—one where the terran must stray from MMMLib to MMM Ghost(and/or)Mine Lib. The legacy of the void expansion changed too much of the matchup. You've got some almost-connections and then the discussion is an awkward pause where you struggle to make absurd parallels.
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On February 10 2016 12:49 chipmonklord17 wrote: The game is still brand new, back I think it was a month or two ago going ling bling muta was considered suicide as opposed to going ravagers. People will learn mech is still fucking good and the meta will adjust accordingly with both races having various options against the other. I wouldn't be too worried ??? What? are you serious? Mech is completely unplayable in LotV. Ravagers im midgame and BL/viper in lategame completely shut down mech.
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On February 10 2016 14:34 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2016 12:49 chipmonklord17 wrote: The game is still brand new, back I think it was a month or two ago going ling bling muta was considered suicide as opposed to going ravagers. People will learn mech is still fucking good and the meta will adjust accordingly with both races having various options against the other. I wouldn't be too worried ??? What? are you serious? Mech is completely unplayable in LotV. Ravagers im midgame and BL/viper in lategame completely shut down mech.
I've seen it done both in pro play and the ladder myself. I believe it was beasty used it in TvP a day or two ago in one of basetrade's events. Again ling bling muta was considered suicidal when you had the option to use ravegers and now both styles are pretty viable. Just because its been reduced from the OP do it every game bull shit we got from some terrans at the tail end of hots to a more one off thing doesn't mean it won't be perfected in the time to come.
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On February 10 2016 14:23 Danglars wrote: I think you spot some very superficial similarities between infestors and ravagers. Behind that, your claims of a new 2012 metagame are spurious, period. The rest of what changed in LOTV make the matchup metagame much more back-and-forth with tons more opportunities for counterplay. You talk about tankivacs, but miss how this is new compared to 2012, a mobile Terran siege tank in bio play.
My biggest gripe is you pretend the similarities to 2012. It's true that the lategame Zerg buffs make 3/6 ultras and 3/3 cracklings more concerning. Vipers BL Corruptor are better. There it ends. 2016 has that, 2012 also had that, therefore let's write a Back to the Future redux? No, the unit compositions have changed, the tactics are very different, the relative strengths in midgame has changed.
This is not the new broodlord/infestor era. It deserves its own analysis of an "aggression timer"—one where the terran must stray from MMMLib to MMM Ghost(and/or)Mine Lib. The legacy of the void expansion changed too much of the matchup. You've got some almost-connections and then the discussion is an awkward pause where you struggle to make absurd parallels. what do you mean? Of course the dynamics have changed but the point of the OP is that almost all terran wins come in mid-earlygame while lategame is heavily in favor of zerg. If you have watched progames from time to time you would have noticed that this is true. Of course it's much more exciting than BL/infestor because terran has a lot of harassment options instead of 1 strong push but I consider it extremely bad design when 1 race wins 100% of the games in early midgame while the other race wins all games that go later. it makes decisionmaking less important (you have no choice but to attack) and is boring for viewers bwcause they know the game is over when a certain upgrade finishes.
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The one major difference that you don't mention is that in broodlord-infestor meta, Terrans were trying to win with a single deathball push; they didn't drop because medivacs were worse, and taking eyes off their army had horrible consequences as you would get it all fungaled and it would die instantly. Terrans currently are not playing like that. Broodlord-infestor was also significantly more imbalanced; in that meta, terrans needed to do early game damage just so they could have a chance at kililng zerg in the midgame, when infestors were already out. Then broodlords or ultralisks were the killmove. In the current meta, Terran has an advantage all through the midgame, doesn't need to put everything into one near-allin push, and is still even with zerg with a small number of ultralisks until zerg gets 8+ ultras or infestors on the field, and even then, it's not as assured a win as it was for a zerg in 2012 with broodlord-infestor. The current state of TvZ is more like TvP has been for years, except with a far easier early game for Terran. The lategame is stronger, but it's not an auto-win.
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TvZ has always been about Terran being strong in the midgame and wanting to attack the Zerg while they defend and play for Hive. Always!!! since BW!
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On February 10 2016 14:53 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: The one major difference that you don't mention is that in broodlord-infestor meta, Terrans were trying to win with a single deathball push; they didn't drop because medivacs were worse, and taking eyes off their army had horrible consequences as you would get it all fungaled and it would die instantly. Terrans currently are not playing like that. Broodlord-infestor was also significantly more imbalanced; in that meta, terrans needed to do early game damage just so they could have a chance at kililng zerg in the midgame, when infestors were already out. Then broodlords or ultralisks were the killmove. In the current meta, Terran has an advantage all through the midgame, doesn't need to put everything into one near-allin push, and is still even with zerg with a small number of ultralisks until zerg gets 8+ ultras or infestors on the field, and even then, it's not as assured a win as it was for a zerg in 2012 with broodlord-infestor. The current state of TvZ is more like TvP has been for years, except with a far easier early game for Terran. The lategame is stronger, but it's not an auto-win. If both players reach the lategame on even terms I would consider it an autowin for zerg but otherwise I agree with you. I watch a lot of pro games and I haven't seen a single game where a terran won vs ultras without being massively ahead already
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On February 10 2016 14:40 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2016 14:34 Charoisaur wrote:On February 10 2016 12:49 chipmonklord17 wrote: The game is still brand new, back I think it was a month or two ago going ling bling muta was considered suicide as opposed to going ravagers. People will learn mech is still fucking good and the meta will adjust accordingly with both races having various options against the other. I wouldn't be too worried ??? What? are you serious? Mech is completely unplayable in LotV. Ravagers im midgame and BL/viper in lategame completely shut down mech. I've seen it done both in pro play and the ladder myself. I believe it was beasty used it in TvP a day or two ago in one of basetrade's events. Again ling bling muta was considered suicidal when you had the option to use ravegers and now both styles are pretty viable. Just because its been reduced from the OP do it every game bull shit we got from some terrans at the tail end of hots to a more one off thing doesn't mean it won't be perfected in the time to come.
Lillekanin game was too silly to be considered viable, and I've seen mech being used too, is complete garbage.
But do post these magical games where is "fucking good" if you want to prove your point.
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On February 10 2016 14:58 BeStFAN wrote: TvZ has always been about Terran being strong in the midgame and wanting to attack the Zerg while they defend and play for Hive. Always!!! since BW! In HotS tvz lategame was winnable for terran and midgame- zerg was also quite strong with muta balls and huge ling bane timings. Also mech tvz...
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OP is absolutely correct. I don't know about other people...but every single TvZ i play on ladder, and every single tournament game i watch...
Zerg masses literally only roach/ravager into hive tech very similar to the "just make infestors and you win" non sense of brood+infestors.
I don't know if it'll be addressed or if the SC2 community sees it as a problem though because no one calls it out how it is because they're afraid to be labelled as balance whiners. So it'll take forever to fix such a thing.
Although, it would not be so bad if ghost snipe didn't have the really annoying and frustrating handicap where if your ghost is tickled by anything then snipe doesn't go off. That mechanic is pure idiocy - it's just a handicap on the unit imo if you build an SC2 unit you should expect to get value out of the unit and ghosts right now are really, really flimsy/unreliable.
I think right now the game for TvZ pretty much is "kill them before they get there" which they will always "get there" because they can mass ravager vs anything you do.
Just my opinions, and analysis. I mostly play mech vs Zerg or skyterran. Every time i try to play bio on ladder vs Zerg they just mass ravager turtle into mass ultra/corruptor.
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@avilo: I agree with most things you say but I really don't see how ravagers are OP. Sure there is a strong timing where zerg has 180 supply and terran only like 140 supply but after that the strength of ravagers falls off very quickly because marines and tanks handle them really well. Comparing them to infestors seems really off imo.
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On February 10 2016 15:36 Charoisaur wrote: @avilo: I agree with most things you say but I really don't see how ravagers are OP. Sure there is a strong timing where zerg has 180 supply and terran only like 140 supply but after that the strength of ravagers falls off very quickly because marines and tanks handle them really well. Comparing them to infestors seems really off imo.
Problem is that they keep the zerg safe on low tech while allowing time to reach T3. I'd really like to leave balance out of it, but design wise they prevent terran from taking a position with AoE units except tankivacs. Once the tankivac is gone (I hope and I'm impatient for it), I suppose the ravager will have to be changed a little in design for tank to be somewhat revelant in the matchup.
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I believe it was beasty used it in TvP a day or two ago in one of basetrade's events.
Oh so it was used once. Mech tvp was also used once or twice in Wol and HOTS. I guess it must be viable then, and I guess we never should make changes then as long as a build is in 1/1000000 of all games.
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On February 10 2016 20:52 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I believe it was beasty used it in TvP a day or two ago in one of basetrade's events. Oh so it was used once. Mech tvp was also used once or twice in Wol and HOTS. I guess it must be viable then, and I guess we never should make changes then as long as a build is in 1/1000000 of all games.
This is the kind of poop on TL that makes me so sad. So many gold league players + Show Spoiler +(not hider in particular but this general approach which is seen in this thread and the many others I have pointed it out in) post about how they only see 1 pro use mech ever and they suck at mech too and therefore it sucks in general. The fact is, on KR, and I'm sure on EU also there are people who have CERTAIN builds for CERTAIN maps/situations and mech is certainly one of them. I can reliably say that ~100 GM I have seen mech pushes on KR before. That doesn't mean they're done every time on those maps but the fact is that the builds /do/ exist. The reason you see people favor other playstyles vs others is because they're either more "reliable" (this doesn't mean the other builds don't work) or because of some type of meta/knowledge approach.
The idea that a certain style of gameplay needs to be able to be utilized at all times is the exact thing people are arguing against (1A protoss, only ravagers, BL only, etc.)
So in short, the game isn't built around how you want it to be played. It's built around balance and how the game itself develops. If there was something so shit about mech units we wouldn't see tank drops, mines, liberators, etc being utilized at all. This is simply not the case.
on a separate note: I think the ghost gimmick like avilo has stated is actually pretty lame. The only problem is removing this and making snipe how it was in the old days is mildly dangerous for energy/cooldown @ an instant cast. So, if it was to be changed this would certainly need to be a point addressed
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On February 10 2016 14:34 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2016 12:49 chipmonklord17 wrote: The game is still brand new, back I think it was a month or two ago going ling bling muta was considered suicide as opposed to going ravagers. People will learn mech is still fucking good and the meta will adjust accordingly with both races having various options against the other. I wouldn't be too worried ??? What? are you serious? Mech is completely unplayable in LotV. Ravagers im midgame and BL/viper in lategame completely shut down mech.
you should watch some of Supernova's vods
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one way that players deal with an impending 8/10 gas zerg is to add factories and pump tanks and liberators to max, with varying amounts of bio mixed in to taste. if you gave minute markers and the general forecast for the game, you could pin down just how much of each unit you'd need to be competitive in the game. ofc, there's the fact that your opponent is trying to adjust to you as well.
if you're too weak, they make a batch of mutas if only your attacks are weak, they rely on ravagers and roaches if you're pressuring hard with bio mine or similar with minimum tanks, they can do zergling baneling and out-control you, or they can do roach ravager as well. either way, the endpoint is mixing in ultralisks to deter frontals. at no point are corruptors a major part of the army, unless you're already losing where you shouldn't be. if they have enough money to remake the army and in the meanwhile mix in corruptors for your liberators, you've already somewhat dug your grave. on the other side of the coin, if you're constantly able to produce ground and a healthy amount of tanks, keeping your liberators to deal with the ultralisks as a result, there's no way the zerg can keep up in cost-effective supply.
so to summarize, while it is more rare, mass-tank is a strategy that some terrans at the top use to good effect. liberators act in a way that's similar to phoenix in PvZ where they deter mutalisk switches if done properly. you might say, 'oh, they're just going to make vipers and crush you then.' yeah, it's up to them to scout, you to produce blindly and at bad timings, and being lazy with control.
it's not about attacking with a strong army, it's attacking for a good reason--for example knowing for a fact that parts or the whole of your army is stronger than theirs for certain periods. you can produce units to achieve that effect, or the exact opposite of that (anti-timing).
since terran has to attack at multiple points in the game, you need to find the right ratio of units and have a couple different settings for that.
personally, i still like to pressure bio-mine, 5 rax 2 fac and end before 4th/5th bases are called into question in this map pool. if htey fast tech with improper control, they lose a base and bleed out. if they multitask and hold your major attacks while teching, you have the immediate option to mix in tanks while you're the one being tugged along by the rope. ghosts are a formality and are mixed in with opposing spellcasters or when your already strong army can seige across the map and force an engagement.
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the whine is real!!!
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On February 10 2016 15:20 avilo wrote: OP is absolutely correct. I don't know about other people...but every single TvZ i play on ladder, and every single tournament game i watch...
Zerg masses literally only roach/ravager into hive tech very similar to the "just make infestors and you win" non sense of brood+infestors.
I don't know if it'll be addressed or if the SC2 community sees it as a problem though because no one calls it out how it is because they're afraid to be labelled as balance whiners. So it'll take forever to fix such a thing.
Although, it would not be so bad if ghost snipe didn't have the really annoying and frustrating handicap where if your ghost is tickled by anything then snipe doesn't go off. That mechanic is pure idiocy - it's just a handicap on the unit imo if you build an SC2 unit you should expect to get value out of the unit and ghosts right now are really, really flimsy/unreliable.
I think right now the game for TvZ pretty much is "kill them before they get there" which they will always "get there" because they can mass ravager vs anything you do.
Just my opinions, and analysis. I mostly play mech vs Zerg or skyterran. Every time i try to play bio on ladder vs Zerg they just mass ravager turtle into mass ultra/corruptor.
I agree with Avilo on this. The heavy pressure that is applied can rapidly punish players and forces the players to respond much more aggressively, even if no attack is coming(fake 5-8 roach pushouts). The effectively shut down tank play if you do not have medivacs on the field. (I.e. if you leave for a drop, or do not rush medivacs in favor of expanding.) This heavily limits build order because of fewer mech options and leaves little room to play as greedy, which in turn zerg players can much more reliably fake moveouts and transition into the late game off a much healthier economy since its very hard to scout every gas and the units popping out of the larvae at all times. I still think that there is a bit of a problem with the ravager, because zergs have little commitment to get to the tech.
Moreover, Ravagers have a very similar problem to that of warp gate, not really that of infestors. The morph across the map effectively increasing the attack power. Thus, any choice to attack can be a much stronger attack by getting a gas once you decide on attacking and morphing more ravagers when you get there. There is almost no direct indication of how much the zerg is committing. Terrans have to basically commit to a heavy attack even if its just a few roaches that move out a little then go home because of the threat of the attack.
Also, there is a bit of a problem since the control required to manage ultralisks and fungals is much simpler than snipe. In the late game i think terran is stronger, but its requires an extremely high skill level to get there.
I know that my arguments for a commitment to ravagers to limit tech transitions and give terrans and protoss more build options is not universally agreed on, but definitely would help with the map pool and matchups. And the choice of going into ravagers would both be scoutable and limit the possibility of transitioning to many tech trees off ravager openers..
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