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Russian Federation4295 Posts
As I saw, everyone is complaining that Swarm Host is useless now and that nobody wants to build him.
Lets take a look at reasons behind that, why SH is useless now and why you might use it wrong.
* Swarm Host is no more core combat unit now. Stop use it to counter Terran mech army, Protoss deathballs or other similar stuff. They are not for fights and engagements.
* Same as Ravens with their auto-turrets, Swarm Hosts fulfill their own new role- harassing enemy bases.
* Not need to dump a lot of money on them, not need to use them as main core unit. Just change your mind regarding Swarm Host. Imagine they are Zerg Oracle with lazer beam, or Zerg half-answer to medivac (in terms of averall DPS and costs).
* Swarm Hosts don't require separate tech path, they are on the way to Infestors, Hive, Vipers and Ultralisks.
* Swarm Hosts can free up your APM while you fighting with main army. Just send them elsewhere around enemy base and do split-harass while engaging other opponent base. They are equal to Overlord drop, almost. Even speed is same - flying locusts and Overlords with speed have same speed.
* Swarm Hosts do not require much upgrades, Locust DPS is already high and it can be upgraded unlike Infested Terrans, Auto-turrets (only one time), and Oracle beams. I'll say more, Locusts can fly WITHOUT upgrades!
What is good with Swarm Hosts also? If you want to say that Mutalisks are better at harassing, you might be right and wrong at same time.
1. Mutalisks require separate tech path and expensive 100 blizz-seconds building called Spire.
2. Mutalisks are very versatile and good units, but they still delaying your Hive and Ultralisks / Vipers.
3. Mutalisks require separate round of upgrades for attack/armor, while Swarm Hosts can benefit from upgrades, that also affect Roaches / Ravagers / Hydralisks / Lurkers.
4. Spire is easy to snipe and long to rebuild. Infestation Pit builds 30 blizz-seconds, while Spire is about 100 blizz-seconds. As I said, Infestation Pit also allows to make Infestors and upgrade to Hive.
In my humble opinion, Swarm Hosts aren't that bad, and there is a reason, why Blizzard haven't touched them since release. Remember what was with previous Swarm Hosts? Everyone claimed them to be useless when HOTS was released, and only later they become the core of all problems and Zerg strenght.
Now Swarm Hosts fulfilling other role, but I think, you should stop look at them like at core combat units. As I said, look at them like they're Oracles / half-Medivac with 4 marines or Raven with some turrets.
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My soul died when the old SH died.
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On February 11 2016 19:49 OtherWorld wrote: My soul died when the old SH died.
I had an orgasm when the old SH was finally fucking changed.
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Locusts do die incredibly fast to anti air, so I still feel like you cannot solely rely on them, unless you use them as a surprise factor.
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The problem with the SH as a harassing tool is, that they require you're opponent to not pay attention to deal decent damage, the locusts move so slowly, that they can't kill any workers when your opponent reacts right away, and the DPS and life span of locusts is too small to snipe important tech buildings or a base, unless you invest a lot in it (like 4-5 SH) which will trigger the opponent to just attack and kill you. Usually you can't hold an attack when you invested this much into SH in the mid game.
They might be okay in the late game, but only if your opponent didn't invest much into static defense.
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nobody is looking at them as a combat unit, a lot of players tried them as harrass unit and failed miserably. Considering how fast lotv is, 43 seconds is a HUGE time gap for a unit to cost supply and do nothing. Even when you consider best harrass scenario (like killing a base completely and some workers with one wave), the amount of resources/time you've spent is barely worth it. And if your opponent is clever enough he will just a move into you and get his free win. Even corruptors are better harrass option than sh sadly.
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Good thread, constructive and informative. I wish more players would try them out some more again. I'm personally of the opinion that they suck but wtf i'm no expert. I think they should add a hive upgrade for locusts again. Maybe 3 additional locusts/flying broodlings that last 10 seconds instead of normal duration. ( so 2 normal flying locust +x3 of say broodling or mockup locust for short duration. I mean they tried the burrow movement for SH and that did nothing.
Infact they have even nerfed the SH during the end of lotv beta, minor dps nerf.
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The problem w/ SH, unlike mutas, is that you can't counter medivac with SH. How are you going to stop drops if you go SH instead of mutas?
I would love to find a way to get SH back into the game. Your points is ok but the problem is practical how are you going to get that extra 500 gas (say you build 5 SH). For me, i rather dump that gas into getting more upgrades, getting other units. Tell me which match ups do you think SH can be use and how?
ZvZ - gas better be spent on upgrades, infestors (to counter mutas) if you are going ground units ZvP - maybe if they are turtling to get airtoss... ZvT - no way unless they are going mech or turtling like crazy. Besides you need that gas for lurkers to keep you alive while you go for hive tech.
You can use them to surprise your enemy (once in a while) or long game stalement but i don't see SH use for any serious or main role in LOTV.
With all the issues Blizzard needs to sort out for LOTV plus making new content, i don't see they will make any changes to SH anytime soon.
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Nobody thinks of the SH as a combat unit, but the distance the locusts can fly before expiring is too short for them to be effective harassment unit. Also the locusts die to any anti air extremely quickly so at best you get 1 wave of harassment and then there will be 2 spores/turrets/cannons at the most obvious paths where the locusts can fly in, which are easy to figure out due to the short distance the locusts can fly before dying.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On February 11 2016 20:18 ejozl wrote: Locusts do die incredibly fast to anti air, so I still feel like you cannot solely rely on them, unless you use them as a surprise factor. But Oracles don't? Liberator or Mutalisks? They all die pretty quickly to defences
I would love to find a way to get SH back into the game. Your points is ok but the problem is practical how are you going to get that extra 500 gas (say you build 5 SH). For me, i rather dump that gas into getting more upgrades, getting other units. Tell me which match ups do you think SH can be use and how? Why 5 swarm hosts? Why not 2? Just make them and then go to other tech path.
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after the sh change everyone was talking about 6-8 sh harrass group, when they realized it is not practical; -why 6 swarm hosts? why not 5? -why 5 swarm hosts? why not 2? -why 2 swarm hosts? why not 1? -why swarm hosts? the desperations lol
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On February 11 2016 20:47 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 20:18 ejozl wrote: Locusts do die incredibly fast to anti air, so I still feel like you cannot solely rely on them, unless you use them as a surprise factor. But Oracles don't? Liberator or Mutalisks? They all die pretty quickly to defences
With those units, you see defense and then simply look for another opening for damage. If you fail to do damage with Locusts that's a whole 43 sec of doing nothing. The other units also serve roles other than doing damage and can help defend. I get what you're saying that you could theoretically always find a reason to build one and if you had unlimited APM that would do well for the investment put in, but that is the case for many things in SC2. Single Mutalisk harass with unlimited APM might've been a thing, Overlord drops should happen ALL THE TIME, stuff like this.
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I do not Believe you are entirely wrong in that SH might find its Place in the meta but you are wrong in many of your Points.
You argue SH is an effective harass unit, they are not because unless you invest in nydus(SH is already crazy expensive gas wise) SH can easily be completely denied. SH harass only works if you have map Control and/or the opponent isn't aware. As soon as he learns what you're doing all he has to do is keep map Control and just kil your SH befeore they get into position to release the flying locusts. This is the situation on large maps, on small maps the opponent will just waltz over and kill you outright since the map is so small.
Harass units are usually also a tool for getting map Control, because you bypass the army (medivac, WP, mutas, banshee or Oracles) and forces the opponent to pull back. SH is completely innefective at this because 1) It only works if you already have map Control and 2) the opponent doesn't even have to pull back because the locusts will expire and are slow.
Harass units are usually not only built and used because of harass and map control, popular harass units have more utility. Raven has detection and other spells, Oracle has revelation and ward while medivac with units can be used just as well in the core army to defend or attack so its not a tradeoff at all. Usually you have to choose how to invest your money, harass or army. Medivacs can do both very well so they have great utility. Do I even have to mention WP?
SH are also super expensive gas wise, have I gotten the point across? They lack almost everything a proper harass unit needs to be viable, they need great maneuverability, utility and the ability to make armies pull back. SH lacks of the above, to even try to compare it to medivacs is silly in my opinion they have all the above and can also be a force in a head-on engagement.
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I get your points, but I just can't spend that amount of gas for that small a return.
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Norway839 Posts
The neo SH under-performs compared to drops and basically everything the new Zerg has to offer... there are close to no realistic situations where they excel compared to another counterpart. Imagine a 4 roach drop with tunneling claws and burrow. Or a nydus worm filled with ultras. Or two lurkers behind a mineral line. They all perform way better. And as the #1 swarmhost gangster (yes, i used the new one too) I believe I know what I'm talking about here..
It could have been a great unit in its original state if it had a maximum unit cap of 4-8 swarm hosts at a time max. But now it's pretty much dead because the alternatives are so much better in almost every single scenario.
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Time between locust spawns is too long and you can't land the locust where you want, they take a lot of damage before hitting the target, so no.
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The golden rule of SC2: Units that don't fight well are bad.
Mutalisks, or plain runbies/drops with cheap units gives you a better army and the same harassment potential for the same price. The only reason to build a Swarm Host over using standard units is to get free damage on a turtling opponent, but since there are no real turtle-styles at the moment, there is no reason to build them. They might find a place though if something like slow-mech becomes viable again.
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A while ago I was playing mech on Dusk Towers vs a zerg. I saw him knocking down the gold base rocks and was like: Whatever makes you happy. But then I found out he did it to release swarmhosts in my base, which was quite nice. The advantage from zerg perspective would be that they can fly, but end up as ground units, so while I tried to intercept with air, those who made it through still were a pain. That said, in the end it didn't do that much.
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Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Whats the point of this thread?
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Units like the swarm host are clutter. Between mutas and lurkers there is just no use for them anymore. I dont see why blizzard doesnt just remove it, other than that they fear drastic changes.
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