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On May 04 2016 04:43 Charoisaur wrote: I don't think the changes are that bad but many people are frustrated because DK keeps ignoring the real issues like 8 armor ultras, 4 supply tempests, parasitic bomb and tankivacs. every community update a lot of people mention those things but DK keeps ignoring it and doesn't do anything to fix them.
What's the deal with parasitic bomb ? It allows a player of superior skill to beat a full air army. If players of equal skill engage, then the terran player can snipe the vipers (the AI focuses them anyway with the other units) and the protoss player feedbacks them. Without parasitic bomb, the zerg player has to build spores everywhere and turtle, while they don't have the tools to do it cost effectively (since the swarm host has been dismantled, and for good reason).
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The biggest problem is, that the community often agrees with David on "this needs to be solved" problems:
Swarmhost completly usless, the possibility of mutas forcing P into certain predictable situations, Liberators strong AA and Thors standing usless next to em.
But the solutions of David are often heardbreaking and not understandable: Cheapter Swarmhosts that take up even more supply are no answer, as Swarmhost are one of the Zerg units you do not throw away to remix in something different but you use them over time again and again. The Cannons are a really band aid fix, as the problem is not the stuff from protoss that shoots up, but that Mutas can take damage for free and there is no risk for the high reward you get with their harass. The new Thor does not help agains capital ships. They never get in range of Broodlords, they do not deal enough damage to take out corrupters to protect the nerfed liberators, they cant get into range of the tempest and even the carrier can outmanouver em. As also 30+15 is not enough damage for a 6 supply, 2 sec single target attack. Not to forget that their ground attack gets completly useless against small units in high numbers.
All of these units could be patched, but not in the way David wants em to patch and thus people have been cheering for David to do something, but his solutions... I dont know what he is doing in his internal testing.
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This game needs more goliaths and less thors.
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On May 04 2016 05:12 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 04:43 Charoisaur wrote: I don't think the changes are that bad but many people are frustrated because DK keeps ignoring the real issues like 8 armor ultras, 4 supply tempests, parasitic bomb and tankivacs. every community update a lot of people mention those things but DK keeps ignoring it and doesn't do anything to fix them. And once he would tackle those things a lot of people would come out and say that 8 armor ultras are no longer a problem and it's good if pure bio can't deal with them unless the T is already ahead, that tankivacs are awesome and that parabomb is already too weak since the nerf. The community does not just have one opinion and it's impossible to please everybody. Once they intend to change something after listening to feedback from one side, the other side will come out and complain. I think the community only agrees on one thing, namely that bandaid changes, like the cannon buff which came out of nowhere, are bad. of course there will be always people that disagree with certain things but from reading the comments for the community feedback updates those are by far the most complained about issues and with good reason. Ignoring things a huge part of the community wants to see changed isn't a good idea if you want to keep your playerbase happy.
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On May 04 2016 05:13 NicolasJohnson wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 04:43 Charoisaur wrote: I don't think the changes are that bad but many people are frustrated because DK keeps ignoring the real issues like 8 armor ultras, 4 supply tempests, parasitic bomb and tankivacs. every community update a lot of people mention those things but DK keeps ignoring it and doesn't do anything to fix them. What's the deal with parasitic bomb ? It allows a player of superior skill to beat a full air army. If players of equal skill engage, then the terran player can snipe the vipers (the AI focuses them anyway with the other units) and the protoss player feedbacks them. Without parasitic bomb, the zerg player has to build spores everywhere and turtle, while they don't have the tools to do it cost effectively (since the swarm host has been dismantled, and for good reason). parasitic bomb does huge amounts of damage without really allowing for counterplay. splitting only works if the zerg has only a few vipers, when he gets to many vipers no amount of splitting will save your units. In combination with broodlords which can only be countered by air units this is too strong and encourages cancerous mass air playstyles. snipe doesn't work if the zerg player pays attention because it gets interrupted by broodlings
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On May 04 2016 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 05:13 NicolasJohnson wrote:On May 04 2016 04:43 Charoisaur wrote: I don't think the changes are that bad but many people are frustrated because DK keeps ignoring the real issues like 8 armor ultras, 4 supply tempests, parasitic bomb and tankivacs. every community update a lot of people mention those things but DK keeps ignoring it and doesn't do anything to fix them. What's the deal with parasitic bomb ? It allows a player of superior skill to beat a full air army. If players of equal skill engage, then the terran player can snipe the vipers (the AI focuses them anyway with the other units) and the protoss player feedbacks them. Without parasitic bomb, the zerg player has to build spores everywhere and turtle, while they don't have the tools to do it cost effectively (since the swarm host has been dismantled, and for good reason). parasitic bomb does huge amounts of damage without really allowing for counterplay. splitting only works if the zerg has only a few vipers, when he gets to many vipers no amount of splitting will save your units. In combination with broodlords which can only be countered by air units this is too strong and encourages cancerous mass air playstyles. snipe doesn't work if the zerg player pays attention because it gets interrupted by broodlings
Oh ok so you talk about it as a problem in a zerg deathball with like queens infestors BLs corruptors and vipers, I get it, but the way I see it, parasitic bomb discourages (a bit) the opponent of going for "cancerous" mass air as you put it , and I don't know any pro zerg who repeateadly goes for mass air, maybe sometimes Snute, but that's not very "zerg". I fully agree with taking parasitic bomb out of the game but then, you should have to take the other air death balls out.
What is more, I don't manage to kill a maxed protoss air army with it (I'm in masters league EU), and neither do the pros I talk to, so I don't think it is that OP.
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Canada11355 Posts
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Post-mortem analysis will alleviate a lot of frustration I feel. Because it's hard to follow the continuity of logic. I was going to suggest it last update, but I guess I forgot to hit post. Kudos to DK for finding a way to help communication. If we know the reasons why something is good or bad from their game design perspective, we can adjust our idea pitches.
It really comes down to how aggressively the game designers feel about changing things. My metric would be BO variety at the expense of win rate or meta stability because I have nothing at stake, but win rates seem to be the dominant litmus test and pro feedback. I just hope the pros aren't just saying it's fine without leaving the safe meta.
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Finally.... Some attentions for cyclone.
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United Kingdom20145 Posts
Protoss Buff vs. Mutalisks Previously, this topic seemed to be clearly important to the community, but it seems to have completely changed the other way. Even though Mutalisks are clearly not an issue at the top of pro level, we believed it was a heavy community issue
Muta has a big effect on the game @ pro level even if they're not seen often. If you were remove the mutalisk tomorrow the PvZ meta would drastically change overnight
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It's almost like he's just reading through reddit posts and TL threads and is surprised that feedback differs. There are one million different opinions, the community will never have 'One true voice.'
Sector 1 - Design, the best thing he can do is play a lot, and listen to the community to what isnt fun and what is really fun, for both players in the game mind you. (a lot of things in SC currently are fun for one user, but makes other user wanna quit).
Sector 2 - Balance - tweaking units stats and things that impact gameplay immidiately, he's best off listening to Kespa pros only. (The highest level).
The bio air buff to cannons is something that is trying to adress sector 1 with a tool from sector 2. This doesn't work.
The change to liberator air stems from a particular maru game vs leenock game a long time ago, zerg has adapted and moved past the problem. Things are very much up in the air right now - the only thing that should be nerfed or removed is the liberator range. (But this is a sympton of bad design- can end games instantly much like oracles, nydusses,).
the 2 sectors are very overlapping, but David Kim is unable to change design things - so he is completly lost and lacks the tools to fix core problems in my opinion.
We need changes to make gameplay more fun for both players a lot more than we need these tiny balance tweaks. And I have the feeling that David Kim is not the person who can make those changes. And I doubt they will ever happen.
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I just really want DK and his design team to stop trying to influence the "meta" as they call it and focus on what they do best. Even as a person who loves competition and ladder I play the campaign and coop once in a while and there are a ton of unique and fun mechanics in those modes that could migrate to ladder with proper consideration and testing.
The Nova missions come to mind immediately, siege tanks that can hop around with an upgrade? That's awesome! Stimmed hellbats? Pretty fuckin cool and a great way to bridge the bio/mech gap. Reapers with spider mines? Slap that on the armory and suddenly keeping your early game reapers alive is a big deal! You simultaneously encourage players to kill those pesky reapers and encourage terran players to keep them alive. Regardless of meta, balance, or community feedback the SC2 design team has already come up with some great stuff.
David please give yourself and your designers more credit and stop trying to please the vocal minority. People are gonna play starcraft regardless of how angry the forums are because the game is fun, not because it's perfectly fair for every player at every skill level on every map.
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Really disappointed that the ultralisk is still in its current form .... This unit is really silly, and the tools to counter it are really awkward for terran.
Would much rather see a terran mid-game nerf if it meant we could get the ultras reverted. They saw action all the time in HOTS and then blizzard decided to HALF marauder damage on them ...
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On May 04 2016 14:24 SilverBullet wrote: Really disappointed that the ultralisk is still in its current form .... This unit is really silly, and the tools to counter it are really awkward for terran.
Would much rather see a terran mid-game nerf if it meant we could get the ultras reverted. They saw action all the time in HOTS and then blizzard decided to HALF marauder damage on them ...
Maybe a better change lay in other features: unit speed, for example. The generally uniform speed of almost all units I think is not right.
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United Kingdom20145 Posts
Some units are very noticably slow like high templar but they are rare
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These polls aren't too hot, probably one of the less-liked patches?
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Did I miss something? Why are they buffing photon cannon and nerfing the Thor?
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I believe that the Thor change was due to people complaining about AA from the Factory.
Whether it addresses the issues is a question for the ages, I think.
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Canada8157 Posts
boost medivacs full of widow mines onto air units new meta?
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