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A thread a bout Clem's disqualification has be closed because it broke some of the TL.net rules.
Yet the debate was kinda heated so I think it is important to understand where these rules come from in the first place.
It's not because of local governments, not even because of EU, but because of the international rules UN countries have agreed on. It's a rule set for every sport in every international competition all over the world.
eSport wants to be a Sport and therefore has to follow the rules that any sport is following. Take France for example, we're on the process of creating an eSport federation, there is no way on earth this process can succeed if this new federation is not given the same rules as any other sport federation. In the future, we will prolly have drug test during competitions (they have it in Chess)...
In Olympics Games the same rule applies : China got some gymnastic medals taken back from them in team competition cause one of their girls was only 14 at the time (from Sidney 2000 iirc).
Gym is a good example cause what is asked to the girls is easier to do at 13-14 than at 16-18 when they got 10 more kilograms and 15 centimetres. The best performance ever in the Olympics is actually Nadia Comaneci when she was 14, in 1976.
But this 16 years old limit is there to protect athletes cause if you want all the gym girls to be at their top at 13 then you have to make them compete at higher levels as young as 9 or 10, maybe even 8. It has lead to huge problems in the past, especially in countries where olympic medals are seen as a huge national pride factor (which are almost every country, tbh)
It was largely admitted that this was against the international convention of Rights of the Child.
Therefore, nowadays, no international sport competition can let children under 16 participate, unless it is specifically aimed toward the children, like junior olympics for example.
So it's not some random government arbitrary rule, it's a strong step in favour of the defence of children everywhere in the world. The little inconvenience it may create are totally minor compared to what is at stake.
And Clem and Reynor can ask for a junior WCS if they want.
Note 1 : on South Korea case
KeSPA competiton are defined as domestic competition, hence they're not supposed to follow international rules, but the local rules. And historically, SK never been exactly an example when it comes to child right...
Note 2 : good (long) reading about the idea of setting a minimum age for intensive training.
here
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And Clem and Reynor can ask for a junior WCS if they want.
Uh huh...
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Solid post. Maybe post it on reddit too?
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And Clem and Reynor can ask for a junior WCS if they want.
For all the good it will do them, no true SC2 fan wanted the WCS we have now, yet it exists
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On May 02 2016 00:28 hellokitty[hk] wrote:Uh huh... What made this post funny was that HK posted it
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It's not the issue. Again, the 14 years old Nadia Comaneci put the best performance ever in gymnastic during the 1976 Olympics games.
The thing is outstanding sport performances, especially in a highly competitive professional sport, come from hard training and sacrifice of other important thing in life, some of which are basic child right such as :
-health (is it really wealthy for 12 years old to train 8 hours a day?) -education (isn't the child damaging his future while he's training instead of studying?) -family life, leisure, rest, friends and socialization in general...
Last you can't really know if the child is being exploited or not, in this case, think about young girl's beauty pageants and all their downward slides and you'll see what I mean. (I'm not even talking about money here cause what parents do with the money kids are earning would require even more discussions)
To this, you seem to oppose your desire of spectating the best possible performance. But if you think that this alone is enough to deny the basic child rights to a 14 years old, then I won't follow you on this road. The day when being entertained will be a right that will overrule other people's right will be a direct throw back to medieval age.
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Canada8774 Posts
On May 02 2016 08:29 Gwavajuice wrote:It's not the issue. Again, the 14 years old Nadia Comaneci put the best performance ever in gymnastic during the 1976 Olympics games. The thing is outstanding sport performances, especially in a highly competitive professional sport, come from hard training and sacrifice of other important thing in life, some of which are basic child right such as : -health (is it really wealthy for 12 years old to train 8 hours a day?) -education (isn't the child damaging his future while he's training instead of studying?) -family life, leisure, rest, friends and socialization in general... Last you can't really know if the child is being exploited or not, in this case, think about young girl's beauty pageants and all their downward slides and you'll see what I mean. (I'm not even talking about money here cause what parents do with the money kids are earning would require even more discussions) To this, you seem to oppose your desire of spectating the best possible performance. But if you think that this alone is enough to deny the basic child rights to a 14 years old, then I won't follow you on this road. The day when being entertained will be a right that will overrule other people's right will be a direct throw back to medieval age.
Pretty much the same, the well being of the person should always come before the enjoyment of the spectator, and starting to compete and train very young can also backfire a lot. Lite it was mention in the first study, for everyone that actually achieve greatness (and in starcraft that is not a lot of people), there is a lot of very good but not great who are never going to do anything.
Also just for general knowledge, Comaneci performance in 1976 is actually far from the best gymnastic we ever saw, it would probably not be an acceptable Olympic performance by today standard at least not a medal worthy performance. It is consider the best because they gave it a perfect score and it was the first one ever (and I think they don't realy give 10 anymore but don't quote me on that).
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She cannot play for any money though. Amateurs competing in a golf tournament or a number of many other sports tournaments with prize money available must waive their right to accept prize money. An amateur athlete competing in an event such as the Masters golf tournament plays for other reasons, including the experience and the opportunity to enhance his golf career with a good finish.
That would be the equivalent to a kid playing just for the opportunity to enhance his Starcraft career in the future (for possible teams, sponsors ect) with a good finish. I don't really know much about these situations for WCS and what happened, but just wanted to point that out.
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Seems like the parallel that is being drawn here doesn't translate as well for esports. If you started playing video games, its 100% because you enjoyed them, not because your parents or country is forcing you. Ultimately, I believe esports are, in many ways, a completely different animal from real sports and its seems reasonable that certain rules that otherwise apply to one or the other shouldn't have to apply to both. Then again, the old crappy saying people love to use: "Rules are rules, and he broke them."
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On May 02 2016 08:29 Gwavajuice wrote:
To this, you seem to oppose your desire of spectating the best possible performance. But if you think that this alone is enough to deny the basic child rights to a 14 years old, then I won't follow you on this road. The day when being entertained will be a right that will overrule other people's right will be a direct throw back to medieval age.
I understand your logic, the principle is sound, but the degree is not even close. A kid winning money in SC2 isn't throwing us back to the medieval ages.
Exploiting anyone, at any age, for any reason, is wrong. And I never argued differently. But letting a 15 year old kid who normally plays a bunch of Starcraft each week and chooses to play at a tournament and win some cash isn't exploitation that is going to endanger his health. Sure, there is potential for abuse here, just like there is potential for abuse in everything.
In fact what the NCAA and apparently Masters Golf does is exploitation, they let the kids the play, make millions off spectators, then don't pay them. That is actual exploitation, by definition. And that is exactly what you suggest with Junior WCS.
Let's not do that. Let's not have a junior WCS where the players don't get paid, but the organizers do. Let's pay people, and if people are being forced to play, at any age or for any reason, let's punish the people making them play.
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On May 02 2016 08:29 Gwavajuice wrote:
To this, you seem to oppose your desire of spectating the best possible performance. But if you think that this alone is enough to deny the basic child rights to a 14 years old, then I won't follow you on this road. The day when being entertained will be a right that will overrule other people's right will be a direct throw back to medieval age.
It seems to me that you are denying these kids their right to play a video game & succeed at it. So lets see, they have the right to purchase the game, but they dont have the right to succeed? Sounds like exploitation to me. They play the games anyways & if they are good enough they should be allowed to play at the highest level. To deny them of such, borders on something along the lines of racism, lets call it ageism.
When it comes to a childs life being negatively effected by videogames, it is up to the parents to relegate that behavior. Not you, not me, not some UN council. You cant legislate morality imo, that is a slippery slope & we're talking about a video game here.
If this is some global endeavor where eSports is trying to be recognized on the same level & they have to abide by those rules then so be it. But in general i'm against Ageism as it goes against everything we should be striving for: May the best players win!
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It's not about exploiting a minor, it's about local law. If you're underage and competing on a professional level (in any sport really) you cannot circumvent the laws. Parents for example have to cosign contracts for their kids in almost any country.... even in the US. In some states they have to be present, whenever their child competes. (for medical/insurance reasons mostly) Obey! Or perish!
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Canada8774 Posts
On May 02 2016 10:24 billynasty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2016 08:29 Gwavajuice wrote:
To this, you seem to oppose your desire of spectating the best possible performance. But if you think that this alone is enough to deny the basic child rights to a 14 years old, then I won't follow you on this road. The day when being entertained will be a right that will overrule other people's right will be a direct throw back to medieval age. It seems to me that you are denying these kids their right to play a video game & succeed at it. So lets see, they have the right to purchase the game, but they dont have the right to succeed? Sounds like exploitation to me. They play the games anyways & if they are good enough they should be allowed to play at the highest level. To deny them of such, borders on something along the lines of racism, lets call it ageism. When it comes to a childs life being negatively effected by videogames, it is up to the parents to relegate that behavior. Not you, not me, not some UN council. You cant legislate morality imo, that is a slippery slope & we're talking about a video game here. If this is some global endeavor where eSports is trying to be recognized on the same level & they have to abide by those rules then so be it. But in general i'm against Ageism as it goes against everything we should be striving for: May the best players win!
All the law legislate morality it is the principle of a law: criminal law, wedding, working law ect... a law is there to say what is consider right to do by the society or most of the time what is not, that is pretty much morality. And it seems easy to say that he has the right to compete at the highest level since he is already a bit old (14) and not like 8 and there is not any real big money to make in sc2 for him anyway so there is not realy any reason for to many people to shark around him for his money.
But if you allowed him to play then you allowed everybody else also, and I am pretty sure you know at least one person (I know a couple from when I was younger) that was good but not great at a sport and who pass all his childhood playing a sport to try to achieve greatness only to get stuck endlessly in some semi-pro league with 3 contusion and no real diploma at 22. I know that example may seems a bit exaggerated and I know that for a lot of people early high level sport is a lot more positive ( hell some of them even make it into the big league), but it is still a reality that it can fuck your life.
I believe having these kid get paid is going to make it worst, the parent are already kind of bought (the team promise the best training, the best hotel, the best contact with pro team, even school say they will make it easier on the kid to make sure he can pass his class, kind of like the American university giving fake diploma so football player could play in their team. If the kid get pay it will make even more pressure on the parent and on the entourage of the family to give more and more place to the sport in the kid life. Probably because they want the best for their kid and they realy believe he or she can do it and they see the money that is coming in and they think they should push him so latter he can have all that and more and have a good but you know most of the time it will probably not work.
And saying it is the responsibility of the parent is not enough, at least not for me, a common argument against the interdiction of child working or obligation of school was that it was the responsibility of the parent to decide how to elevate their child and not the state business. It is a fair argument after all but not one I can agree on.
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On May 02 2016 11:42 Nakajin wrote: But if you allowed him to play then you allowed everybody else also, and I am pretty sure you know at least one person (I know a couple from when I was younger) that was good but not great at a sport and who pass all his childhood playing a sport to try to achieve greatness only to get stuck endlessly in some semi-pro league with 3 contusion and no real diploma at 22. I know that example may seems a bit exaggerated and I know that for a lot of people early high level sport is a lot more positive ( hell some of them even make it into the big league), but it is still a reality that it can fuck your life.
This whole thing seems very 1984ish to me.
You can legally screw up your life (hello tobacco, alcohol and opoids!) or exploit your kids in so many ways, and the solution isn't to simply ban kids from doing anything because we fear it might screw them up or they will be exploited.
Because the crime here isn't any individual action, like playing in a SC2 tournament, being at beauty pageant, or playing football, the crime is exploitation. Let's punish the people who exploit, because those are the criminals.
The little girl who really wants to be at the beauty pageant is not the criminal. And just because she might fail, is not a reason for her not to try to. A lot of people fail in all walks of life.
Failure is a learning opportunity that can only be understood if you actually let someone fail.
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Canada8774 Posts
On May 02 2016 11:55 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2016 11:42 Nakajin wrote: But if you allowed him to play then you allowed everybody else also, and I am pretty sure you know at least one person (I know a couple from when I was younger) that was good but not great at a sport and who pass all his childhood playing a sport to try to achieve greatness only to get stuck endlessly in some semi-pro league with 3 contusion and no real diploma at 22. I know that example may seems a bit exaggerated and I know that for a lot of people early high level sport is a lot more positive ( hell some of them even make it into the big league), but it is still a reality that it can fuck your life.
This whole thing seems very 1984ish to me. You can screw up your life or exploit your kids in so many ways, and the solution isn't to simply ban kids from doing anything because we fear it might screw them up or they will be exploited. Because the crime here isn't any individual action, like playing in a SC2 tournament, being at beauty pageant, or playing football, the crime is exploitation. Let's punish the people who exploit, because those are the criminals. The little girl who really wants to be at the beauty pageant is not the criminal. And just because she might fail, is not a reason for her not to try to. A lot of people fail in all walks of life. Failure is a learning opportunity.
Well the things is it is pretty much impossible to punish the people who "exploit", most of the time they will be persuaded they don't exploit him, but only work for his/her future, and develop their potential, and the child can become persuaded that he has to do it and that it is good for him even if it is in fact is parent or is relative that want to do it and not him. A 10 years old child is probably not going to go to the police or everyone else to say that their parent or their coach is pushing them to hard and no one is going to check how many hours a kid is practising to say if it is ok or not. Banning children from professional sport is a way to try reduce the chance of having child be push to hard without his will.
I am not saying it is perfect but I feel like the good outweigh the bad on that one.
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haha this is funny man, banning 14 year olds from competing at video games is a way to reduce stress on them. Its a stressful world man. Lets just lock them in a room full of bouncy balls 24-7 so we can keep them safe. Make sure to give them helmets tho so they dont hurt their head. Idk man, part of being a kid is discovering what life is all about & learning to deal with the stress. And videogames are 1 outlet that children & hell people look towards, to help relieve that stress.
What about Freedom? What about having the God given right to the pursuit of happiness? Oh forget about that, we're trying to protect you from harming yourself from playing & competing in video games.
And yes the legal system will create laws trying to legislate morality, & sometimes its for the 'greater good', but in actuality 1 really cant because times change, people change, viewpoints change. These Draconian laws get created 1 after the other & soon enough we have laws saying children cant compete playing video games for their own safety. Its maddening. Orwell rolls over once more
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I hadn't actually thought about this before but it makes a lot of sense. Good post!
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The problem comes when a sport gets big enough to politicize the players. No-one should care about the age of an athlete, except to marvel at how young some of them can be and still see success.
The problem with Chinese 14 year old girl gymnasts is mainly that Chinese athletes are political tools for the Olympics. That is where the abuse comes in. It is a famous fact that in gymnastics (and ballet/dancing) girl's performance peaks in their teens. To maximize the peak the Chinese government begins selection of athletes at 6-8 years old. For that one girl who made it to the article, there are many thousands of girls you've never hear of who didn't make the cut but also had to make massive life sacrifices.
The age isn't inherently the problem, it's when the athletes get taken advantage of that is the problem.
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Nice post, thanks for explaining. I knew about this and also the Olympia problem with china sneaking in younger participants. So I do get where the WCS rule is coming from.
But why can Reynor and Clem play Go4sc2 and other online tournaments and win money there? Reynor even played in at least 3 DHs so far (Bucharest 2013, 2014 and LotV Roccat Championship) and I guess many other smaller lans. None of those was a junior competition.
Edit: Btw I would love to see a Junior WCS. All of it could be online except for the finals, which would be held offline at the WCS Championships right before the normal final.
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On May 01 2016 23:53 Gwavajuice wrote: Take France for example, we're on the process of creating an eSport federation, there is no way on earth this process can succeed if this new federation is not given the same rules as any other sport federation. In the future, we will prolly have drug test during competitions (they have it in Chess)...
Here s an interesting link of debate about the minimum age : https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/7kebm7/why_should_clem_and_reynor_wait_until_2019_to/
You are comparing "drug test during competitions"... Did you ever hear about cheating in many country ? (Russia with olympics, France with bike race). I also dislike you way you claim the international rules are done and in the same time you re putting aside the case of korea. Is it so hard to recognize some ethnical humans have better emphasize with some abilities ?
You can also admit some young players have a dream they can realize one time in their life. And their right, whatever their nationality, is above your law.
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On December 26 2017 06:05 the_last_terran1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2016 23:53 Gwavajuice wrote: Take France for example, we're on the process of creating an eSport federation, there is no way on earth this process can succeed if this new federation is not given the same rules as any other sport federation. In the future, we will prolly have drug test during competitions (they have it in Chess)...
Here s an interesting link of debate about the minimum age : https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/7kebm7/why_should_clem_and_reynor_wait_until_2019_to/You are comparing "drug test during competitions"... Did you ever hear about cheating in many country ? (Russia with olympics, France with bike race). I also dislike you way you claim the international rules are done and in the same time you re putting aside the case of korea. Is it so hard to recognize some ethnical humans have better emphasize with some abilities ? You can also admit some young players have a dream they can realize one time in their life. And their right, whatever their nationality, is above your law.
Are you now suggesting that France is responsible for all illegal doping in biking because it hosts the Tour de France? I seemingly remember the most proliftic cheaters being American, Italian and UK (but that sport, like so many other extreme endurance ones, is riddled with this- and French athletes are not an exception.
That last statement you make is completely ridiculous. "Their right, is above your law". How I would love for that to be true, that my sense of entitlement would make me above the law. Very stupid statement.
Clem is a great up and coming star. He should become a major power house later, given how high is skill is in relationship to his age. But to pretend he has any chance of winning a major "open age" competition right now or even for a year or two (depending on how fast he progresses, and this is being politely optimistic) is borderline insane. Last competition, he qualified for- which is brilliant, but failed to even take a map. He'll have every opportunity to dedicate more of his time and participate in every competition at a later age. waiting for ~1 (+) year... Why is it such a big deal he was refused from one specific tourny?
The Korean underaged kids (IIRC) and the Chinese are capped on the amount of time they can access the internet or play online games... Or something along these lines- I could be very well be remembering a major falsehood but if that's the case I'm sure I'll be called out for it .
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User was warned for this post
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No rules or laws can stop shit parenting.
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On May 02 2016 09:25 ClanRH.TV wrote: Seems like the parallel that is being drawn here doesn't translate as well for esports. If you started playing video games, its 100% because you enjoyed them, not because your parents or country is forcing you. Ultimately, I believe esports are, in many ways, a completely different animal from real sports and its seems reasonable that certain rules that otherwise apply to one or the other shouldn't have to apply to both. Then again, the old crappy saying people love to use: "Rules are rules, and he broke them."
An athlete that goes into a conventional sport "because he/she enjoyed it" is still not allowed to compete underage. I don't see how this point is any relevant.
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I suspect that there is going to be a major divide on this issue between the United States and the rest of the world. Looking at the comments already posted I can see that developing. A lot of people in the US seem to think child beauty pageants are acceptable, for example, or watch youth league sports and/or push their children very hard to succeed at youth league sports. Little thought is given to the impact this has on the child and the responsibility is typically abdicated to the parents the same way that the US federal government often abdicates responsibility to the regional governments of individual constituent states. The idea that parents don't always know what's best for their children or that isolated pockets of the country shouldn't be allowed to make their own rules relating to human rights comes off as an unthinkable alien concept to many. I won't pretend to know if this attitude results in a net benefit to US society or not but it comes off as wishy-washy in situations like this one where the international community has made commitments on an issue and the US continues to vacillate. "Signed, but not ratified" is the same self-inflicted wound that has been undercutting US efforts to maintain the status quo in the South China Sea.
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this is honestly pretty solid logic.
while sc2 is not (and will almost certainly never be) big enough that parents would force their kids to train from a young age in order to win championships, you can easily see how this could happen in other esports that are now managing to have serious rewards. for example, winning a dota2 TI could potentially make you set for life if it was saved and invested properly, and there's no doubt that a child literally raised on playing dota (or another game) for hours a day at a super young age would be wayyyyyyyy ahead of the curve. while delaying their ability to compete wouldn't necessarily avoid the issue entirely, it could help there to be less urgency in taking over child lives at such an early age.
again, as I said, this will never be an issue in sc2 but I do think for professional esports competitions this could be an important thing to have established down the road.
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How old was Maru and TY when they started they esports career again? I don't understand why Clem or Reynor suppose to be different, especially when their parents allow them to participate and, as saw in Valencia- Clem's father accompanies him on tournaments.
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Clem and Reynor aren't allowed to compete even after they turn 16, because age is checked at 1st of January instead of whenever a particular tournament begins.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51330 Posts
On December 26 2017 18:09 hiroshOne wrote: How old was Maru and TY when they started they esports career again? I don't understand why Clem or Reynor suppose to be different, especially when their parents allow them to participate and, as saw in Valencia- Clem's father accompanies him on tournaments. Maru was 13 in 2010 when he was on his first game of GSL Open Tournament Season 1! Crazy indeed, as a football quote i'll use "If your good enough, your old enough"
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On December 26 2017 19:46 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2017 18:09 hiroshOne wrote: How old was Maru and TY when they started they esports career again? I don't understand why Clem or Reynor suppose to be different, especially when their parents allow them to participate and, as saw in Valencia- Clem's father accompanies him on tournaments. Maru was 13 in 2010 when he was on his first game of GSL Open Tournament Season 1! Crazy indeed, as a football quote i'll use "If your good enough, your old enough" And now Maru is 20.
God, I feel old.
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On December 26 2017 18:09 hiroshOne wrote: How old was Maru and TY when they started they esports career again? I don't understand why Clem or Reynor suppose to be different, especially when their parents allow them to participate and, as saw in Valencia- Clem's father accompanies him on tournaments.
Creator was like 15 when he got to the blizzcon final iirc
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51330 Posts
On December 27 2017 03:25 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2017 19:46 Pandemona wrote:On December 26 2017 18:09 hiroshOne wrote: How old was Maru and TY when they started they esports career again? I don't understand why Clem or Reynor suppose to be different, especially when their parents allow them to participate and, as saw in Valencia- Clem's father accompanies him on tournaments. Maru was 13 in 2010 when he was on his first game of GSL Open Tournament Season 1! Crazy indeed, as a football quote i'll use "If your good enough, your old enough" And now Maru is 20. God, I feel old. Haha yeah that is what i thought xD
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8716 Posts
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On December 26 2017 06:36 MyTHicaL wrote:
That last statement you make is completely ridiculous. "Their right, is above your law". How I would love for that to be true, that my sense of entitlement would make me above the law. Very stupid statement.
As often, i understand well english but fail to be understood. I should say "Their right to dream and make you (...) haphazard could exist if law-writers were not so strickles about the rules".. They are so many examples of a stupid date fixed by law with no relation with anything (insurance company) - What you will endure when you re getting old is the weight of counting your age and i can t support this law which make unfair the feeling of our youngest mates...
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