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I actually had a great idea which I'm gonna present again for the infestor!!!
Acidic Spores: The infestor shoots a green orb of spores at the ground which stays dormant until an enemy moves within 1.5 range of it, then it detonates dealing heavy damage vs light units in addition to a minor slow effect. Spores placed on creep cloak after a short fade delay. Energy Cost: 75 Cooldown: 5 seconds Damage: 5 per second 10 vs light AOE: About the same as a tank shot. Slow: 15% Duration: 3 seconds Role: the role of this ability is to have a PRE pathogen glands timing for infestors to fight mass lings and marine shoves. also does well vs adepts and zealots.. the cloaking aspect will wreck heavy investments in ling runbys and bad clumping...
Second Idea!!!
My second idea to bring the infestor into the spotlight is a RECURSION of the parasite that the queen had..
Lesser Parasite: The infestor launches a small infectious spore cloud at an area infecting all biological units that pass through it with "Lesser parasites". These parasites last until the unit receives healing. They provide vision of 1 around the unit. Energy Cost: 75 Cooldown: N/A AOE: About twice as big as a tank shot, Same as fungal. Duration: 2.5 seconds
Hive tech upgrade at ultralisk cavern! Ultra- Strain : This upgrade allows The lesser parasites to be replaced by "Ultrastrain Parasites" Which after 240 seconds of being inside of a host will destroy the host and spawn a broodling.
Notes: Parasites will (as in broodwar) be revealed by a note added to the infocard of the unit as well as causing him to glow green in the wiretool card. The parasite is instantly eradicated with any healing.
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hmm, how about reducing duration of the shade ability itself? It would make shade having less possible distance, which would make for easier defense. Also it would nerf scouting capabilities a bit.
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If pylon overcharge is to or should get at disposal you guys should elaborate why it was brought into the game and if these factors can be changed.
That mainly comes down to terran bio + medivacs. Protoss was just too weak in split up fights against terran units that are getting healed. And the fact that bio + medivac anyway are the main army component of any terran army so the tech and units were a zero commitment.
If that changes we can can drop pylon overcharge.
The same about the adept. Bio was just too strong since release of WOL and could only be countered with massive splash units when not going all-in. Therefore the game got stale on very narrow unit compositions and timings. Therefore they introduced adepts in the manner they were.
Get the bio issue fixed and you fix the fundamentals of the game.
Fixing it means less omnipotence of bio and more requirement of supplementation of other and higher tech units. Imo the best way to do it is to remove the marauder from early game and move it behind some expensive tech in terms of time and resources (T3). Then terran had to fill this gap with units from factories. Marauders just add what is too much to bio. They are too solid in tanking damage and other than that even counter armored units - all that at the same mobility as marines and with basically the same tech requirements. This is what mech should have been there for.
The current solution with marauders is below standard. Having their attack splitted into two attacks makes them worse against units with armor. This is contrary to the idea of design to let them counter armored units. It underlines the issue with the unit imo.
On a seperate note:
I dislike the fact that we have units with armor and on the other hand units with the armored tech. In a perfect world this should not exist. A unit like the ultralisk with 8 amor is an amored unit, a unit with 0 armor isn't an armored unit, an non-ugraded ultralisk is a less armored unit than a fully upgraded one. I know that these tags helps to make balancing easier but I believe it could get redundant with a perfect system.
In this regard:
I imagine a more organic system with the tags to be potentially more interesting and dynamic if this can be made viable:
Why don't you let anti armor damage scale with the amount of armor the attacked unit has (the more armor the more damage)? Then anti light damage could scale with the armor the attacked unit doesn't have (the more armor the less damage).
I know that requires alot of change and testing but I think it is worth thinking it through. We could get some completely new and interesting interactions and strategies.
Example with zealot: If a zealot did 8x2 normal damage and had the damage against armored units tag then it could do the following damage: 0-0-0 zealot: against 0 armor 2x8 = 16 against 1 armor 2x7 + 2x1 = 16 against 2 armor 2x6 + 2x2 = 16 ...
1-0-0 zealot: against 0 armor 2x9 = 18 against 1 armor 2x8 + 2x1 = 18 ...
Just a thought. Obviously this alone does not seem viable. Probably it creates unnecessary complexity. Maybe it can be expanded with any brilliant idea to bring it into a viable spot? Anyone?
Anyway I believe with such fundamental changes as planned the whole thing with the tags should be thought through again and if possible improved.
But really this isn't the most pressing issue of SC2 if at all, don't get me wrong. I just don't like the boring tags that much at all and would rather see the bonus damage of anti armored or non armored somehow come out of the stats of the interacting units itself and be a bit more dynamic. Probably too difficult to make it viable.
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Example with zealot: If a zealot did 8x2 normal damage and had the damage against armored units tag then it could do the following damage: 0-0-0 zealot: against 0 armor 2x8 = 16 against 1 armor 2x7 + 2x1 = 16 against 2 armor 2x6 + 2x2 = 16 ...
1-0-0 zealot: against 0 armor 2x9 = 18 against 1 armor 2x8 + 2x1 = 18 Simpler solution to above example - attacks ignore armor. Very easy to change. But if you want specific unit to deal specific bonus damage vs some specific unit but different vs another, then it can get very complicated, messy and time consuming to implement.
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On August 29 2016 19:46 Nazara wrote:Show nested quote +Example with zealot: If a zealot did 8x2 normal damage and had the damage against armored units tag then it could do the following damage: 0-0-0 zealot: against 0 armor 2x8 = 16 against 1 armor 2x7 + 2x1 = 16 against 2 armor 2x6 + 2x2 = 16 ...
1-0-0 zealot: against 0 armor 2x9 = 18 against 1 armor 2x8 + 2x1 = 18 Simpler solution to above example - attacks ignore armor. Very easy to change. But if you want specific unit to deal specific bonus damage vs some specific unit but different vs another, then it can get very complicated, messy and time consuming to implement.
Warcraft III armor system now!
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Wish they would increase the combat power of the Banshee to make up for the stronger option each race has against Banshees since early HotS. Speed buff sounds just wrong for a cloaked atg.
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On August 29 2016 23:08 FeyFey wrote: Wish they would increase the combat power of the Banshee to make up for the stronger option each race has against Banshees since early HotS. Speed buff sounds just wrong for a cloaked atg.
Having fast flying units that are strong enough to stand on their own against anti-flyer units is a very bad idea. Having overly strong flying units in general is a very bad idea, since it completely negates most map features. It also removes the element of good positioning from the game, which would be a significant loss. I shouldn't even have to mention the horrors we have experienced with sky-X armies (you can substitute the X for any race, really) in the lategame.
On August 29 2016 17:42 LSN wrote: If pylon overcharge is to or should get at disposal you guys should elaborate why it was brought into the game and if these factors can be changed.
That mainly comes down to terran bio + medivacs. Protoss was just too weak in split up fights against terran units that are getting healed. And the fact that bio + medivac anyway are the main army component of any terran army so the tech and units were a zero commitment.
If that changes we can can drop pylon overcharge.
The same about the adept. Bio was just too strong since release of WOL and could only be countered with massive splash units when not going all-in. Therefore the game got stale on very narrow unit compositions and timings. Therefore they introduced adepts in the manner they were.
Get the bio issue fixed and you fix the fundamentals of the game. I can agree with you up to this point. I have elaborated before why strong Adepts or Gateway units in general are important for Protoss to not have to revert back to their HotS style. The problem with Photon Overcharge is not that bio is too strong in the early- to midgame, we have buffed Adepts for that. The problem here is the mobility of high DPS units that can ignore terrain. That includes not just Medivacs, but also Mutalisks and the stronger Warp Prism. If you as the attacker can move your forces faster from one enemy base to the other than the defender, it causes a lot of problems. If it then also ignores terrain and defenses, it's even more troublesome. It is the main reason why I loathe the boost on Medivacs, it is the most problematic unit in the game and has been for a very long time, if you ask me. Not in terms of pure balancing, but in terms of design.
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Maybe the harass role of the banshee now is a bit shadowed by the liberator ? I don't know, I see many players going for liberator harass, because you can re-utilize the liberators in the following push and in your standard composition, while for the banshee is more difficult (not sure since I don't play terran)
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On August 30 2016 00:17 VHbb wrote: Maybe the harass role of the banshee now is a bit shadowed by the liberator ? I don't know, I see many players going for liberator harass, because you can re-utilize the liberators in the following push and in your standard composition, while for the banshee is more difficult (not sure since I don't play terran) Also liberator harass strains your opponent's multitasking much more than your own, unlike banshees, and it can be reactored/made without add-ons (in case you get all-in'd) and fight air units. It's just all around better.
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i dont have much of a problem with adept itself, but I do have issue with the ability to cancel the shade at will, it should cost shields or health or something as a risk/reward for a free scout on a very strong early game unit.
deep tunneling wasn't all that great anyways, I prefer being able to cast while burrowed but it sure is odd seeing the burrow model for those infestors and the fact that they can block units makes it pretty obvious they are there.
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It could be that when you cancel the shade you have some additional cooldown on the shade ability itself (it may be frozen for some amount of time, to be tweaked).
This way if you decide to cancel the shade you won't have the opportunity to re-shade again shortly and you are somehow committing to the current move (it may mean that you won't be able to escape from the enemy base, of that you will retard the next shading enough so that the opponent can prepare more defense).
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I'd personally redesign the Colossus in the following way:
- Slower attack speed.
- Larger range, slightly less than a Siege Tank.
- Moves very slowly - has to be microed with a Warp Prism for mobility.
- No longer considered an air unit, so you can't just mass Corruptors to counter them.
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Why should we touch the colossus now? I think it's in a good place, with a not so dominant but not useless role..
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Adept We are seeing feedback of trying out a change where the vision radius is reduced on the Adept shades. Unless there is strong disagreement about this change, we’ll start testing on this as well.
The fundamental problem with Adepts, as with many other Protoss abilities, is noncommitment. Vision radius does zilch to fix it. The basic problem is you can have an army in one base, fighting, and threaten that same army in a different place without any need to make good on that threat. An army that's ace at slaughtering workers at that. An army that can start that fight in one place by deciding that they are in your base now, and get out all the same.
The unit is fundamentally, completely anti-commitment as it stands. A proper fix to the Adept means shelving the shitfest that is Shade completely or to do something to make it a commitment - making it uncancelable and/or blockable with units would probably be my favourites after removing the POS completely in the first place and giving them something more interesting to do, something that plays with the basic mechanisms of the game: Movement, threat of force, the way all basic combat units do it: Bio, Lings, Blings, Roaches, Stalkers, Ravagers, Tanks, Hellions, you name it.
Normal, but interesting movement, and a threat of force that needs the unit to be there to present it. These are fundamental tenets of interesting engagements, and Protoss as a faction shits all over them in a myriad of ways already. We need less, not more.
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I loathe the boost on Medivacs, it is the most problematic unit in the game and has been for a very long time, if you ask me. Not in terms of pure balancing, but in terms of design.
Ability to proxy most of your production to any random farm Ability to proxy most of your production to a dropship Ability to whip up indestructible unpathable obstacles on a whim to the point you dictate engagements A button to turn random farms into übercannons übercannon maker is also a quickly online flier to make long-term contains by Z untenable early A button to threaten an army in a different place with no need to make good on the threat A button to zap an army out of a deeply committed position while continuing to fight A button to zap an army out of a deeply committed position
Medivac boost may be too strong, but as far as egregious game design goes, a temporary speed boost doesn't hold a candle to Protoss. The faction isn't just a bit too good at moving around - it directly breaks a ridiculous number of the basic dynamics of logistics and engagements with special abilities that are often unilateral decisions by the Protoss player.
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The whining and complaining about protoss is really strong.. honestly I can't remember the last ladder game when I won and someone said gg to me, it's always some variation of "protoss lol" "easy race" , etc.
Yes P has very different mechanics, but they characterize the race wrt T and Z.. you cannot compare too much how the difference races works since the production mechanisms are deeply different. A protoss cannot really macro his production while fighting because you have to go back to a pylon / energy field and warp in units, while as T and Z you do everything with hotkeys and keyboard (this is just *one* example)..
It's true that P can easily disengage in many situations, but it's also true that when you loose an engagement as T or Z, often you have a second army at home composed of units you produced during the engagement. If a P looses all its army it's generally game over..
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On August 31 2016 02:57 VHbb wrote: The whining and complaining about protoss is really strong.. honestly I can't remember the last ladder game when I won and someone said gg to me, it's always some variation of "protoss lol" "easy race" , etc.
Yes P has very different mechanics, but they characterize the race wrt T and Z.. you cannot compare too much how the difference races works since the production mechanisms are deeply different. A protoss cannot really macro his production while fighting because you have to go back to a pylon / energy field and warp in units, while as T and Z you do everything with hotkeys and keyboard (this is just *one* example)..
It's true that P can easily disengage in many situations, but it's also true that when you loose an engagement as T or Z, often you have a second army at home composed of units you produced during the engagement. If a P looses all its army it's generally game over.. This sounds just like Terran Mech, minus the ability to disengage...
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On August 31 2016 02:46 Coffeeling wrote:Show nested quote +I loathe the boost on Medivacs, it is the most problematic unit in the game and has been for a very long time, if you ask me. Not in terms of pure balancing, but in terms of design.
Ability to proxy most of your production to any random farm Ability to proxy most of your production to a dropship Ability to whip up indestructible unpathable obstacles on a whim to the point you dictate engagements A button to turn random farms into übercannons übercannon maker is also a quickly online flier to make long-term contains by Z untenable early A button to threaten an army in a different place with no need to make good on the threat A button to zap an army out of a deeply committed position while continuing to fight A button to zap an army out of a deeply committed position Medivac boost may be too strong, but as far as egregious game design goes, a temporary speed boost doesn't hold a candle to Protoss. The faction isn't just a bit too good at moving around - it directly breaks a ridiculous number of the basic dynamics of logistics and engagements with special abilities that are often unilateral decisions by the Protoss player. Medivac Boost is the sole reason why Blink Stalkers and Mutalisks became mandatory in the HotS PvT and ZvT metagames. With any other style, you'd be overwhelmed by the mobility of bio drops. It's why every professional game became Blink Stalker Colossus or Ling Bling Muta versus MMMM, with a few exceptions (Oracle cheese, or Swarm Hosts vs Mech.)
Granted, the Mothership Core was honestly far more broken back in HotS when it used to outrange Siege Tanks and effectively hold off every 1-1-1 all in. Now, it just feels like a safety crutch that falls apart once you spend your energy.
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On August 31 2016 03:25 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2016 02:57 VHbb wrote: The whining and complaining about protoss is really strong.. honestly I can't remember the last ladder game when I won and someone said gg to me, it's always some variation of "protoss lol" "easy race" , etc.
Yes P has very different mechanics, but they characterize the race wrt T and Z.. you cannot compare too much how the difference races works since the production mechanisms are deeply different. A protoss cannot really macro his production while fighting because you have to go back to a pylon / energy field and warp in units, while as T and Z you do everything with hotkeys and keyboard (this is just *one* example)..
It's true that P can easily disengage in many situations, but it's also true that when you loose an engagement as T or Z, often you have a second army at home composed of units you produced during the engagement. If a P looses all its army it's generally game over.. This sounds just like Terran Mech, minus the ability to disengage...
Mech units are much more powerful one by one than gateway units, especially in this new patch, which I would say balance for the difficulty to replenish you army and to move around / disengage (just my thoughts , I may well be off track )
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Adepts are absurdly broken because they have superior mobility to Zealots, are ranged, and have the same effective HP (combination of Life and Shields) and armour values. They need a big nerf (perhaps justified by a 25 mineral cost reduction) to bring back the Zealot in the metagame.
Also, the Shade ability completely breaks the concept of using Siege Tanks to hold a defensive position, since you can just project your Adepts right on top of the tank and negate any kind of advantage your opponent would have achieved.
Infestors would be good with burrowed casting alone - at least for Neural Parasite, which means that it might finally be used once again.
As for Banshee Speed, I'd prefer things the way they were. Banshees are fine in the meta. Giving them increased speed just makes them absurdly hard to catch out.
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