Since the meta changed in late hots zerg started using vipers to great effect, it wasnt adopted immediatly and was initially only used at the top of the ladder
but in time the word spread and now it seems vipers are common, this begs the question do they completely nullify the tank buff?
Here are some examples of vipers shutting down high gm mech players in what can only be defined as a steamrolling hardcounter
i think i speak for every mech player when i say that fixing blinding cloud would be many times more desirable than reverting hydra/sh however frustrating they are to play against
On December 03 2016 00:28 Ej_ wrote: "Let's what's new on TL!"
*spots anothrr "Buff mech" thread*
"Not much I guess"
Considering your nonchelant responce i dont think you even read the post before responding just knee jerk scoff at me based off the first line, thats a low content post if i ever saw one.
Why not simply cut the range of units in the cloud in half. Hydra seems ok, the SH is just frustrating to play against, in its current form, you can't catch it. You either box your whole army and march across the map when seeing SH and most likely win or you slowly die trying to minimize the locust harass.
On December 03 2016 00:34 Phaenoman wrote: Why not simply cut the range of units in the cloud in half. Hydra seems ok, the SH is just frustrating to play against, in its current form, you can't catch it. You either box your whole army and march across the map when seeing SH and most likely win or you slowly die trying to minimize the locust harass.
Totally removing blinding cloud without tweaking numbers on some other units is totally gonna break the game and make mech too strong, either nerfing the radius, duration or mana cost seems like a better option
Also all these example videos are pre-patch, so they don't really account for the changes like raven and tank buffs etc... I think with some ravens and/or ghosts mixed in, mech can be viable, even at the top level.
Imo it's too early to jump to conclusions since we are only in a few days into the new patch and the meta is far from figured out.
Reducing the casting range of Blinding Cloud (11) to equal that of the viking (9) might help in those late game engagements where the zerg sacks their vipers to blind the opponent. Instead of 5 clouds on the entire army perhaps there will be only 2 or 3.
i like to see the Viper "yank"/abduct not work on a Tank sieged into the ground. How does a flying creature's tongue pull a secured and grounded unit while that flying creatures hangs motionless in mid-air? If the interactions are still imbalanced after this nerf then start playing with the blinding cloud's capabilities.
On December 03 2016 00:43 JayuSC2 wrote: Totally removing blinding cloud without tweaking numbers on some other units is totally gonna break the game and make mech too strong, either nerfing the radius, duration or mana cost seems like a better option
Also all these example videos are pre-patch, so they don't really account for the changes like raven and tank buffs etc... I think with some ravens and/or ghosts mixed in, mech can be viable, even at the top level.
Imo it's too early to jump to conclusions since we are only in a few days into the new patch and the meta is far from figured out.
This is extremely arrogant of you to say, nothing has changed with the viper since the patch, for the average terran player who is trying to learn mech blinding cloud is a reason i will never teach someone to go into lategame ever, for how easy it is to use, even the best progaming mech players are OFTEN completely caught off guard by it and it is fatal every time this occurrs, the average terran do not stand a snowballs chance in hell to win lategame with mech, not a snowballs chance in hell!
On December 03 2016 00:28 Ej_ wrote: "Let's what's new on TL!"
*spots anothrr "Buff mech" thread*
"Not much I guess"
Considering your nonchelant responce i dont think you even read the post before responding just knee jerk scoff at me based off the first line, thats a low content post if i ever saw one.
But Ej is completely right, even if he hasn't put it nicely enough to get a cookie from the kindergarten teachers.
This thread is built on the premise, that "mech" "needs" a buff. There are many such voice nowadays and all of them are unfounded, because the patch that completely changed both tanks and the things used against them, has been out for a very short time.
If this was the first groundbreaking observation that "mech" (whatever that exactly is, even proponents of it can't agree apparently) is weak and something needs to be done asap, then I understand why a short dismissive response is rude, but that is just not what is happening here, this is nothing but whine, and it is even one that is extremely prevalent. At what point do we get to laugh at it?
On December 03 2016 00:52 Comedy wrote: What is the problem with bio? It's the best most fun gameplay.
most terran players have waited to be able to play mech in tvz/tvp since wol, but recently with the big mech patch we were promised a redesigned cyclone, better siege tank and useful battlecruisers, due to hydralisks hardcountering battlecruisers and the cyclone being ... not the absolute best unit i would say most would agree, the tank is the only thing we have left, but it gets blinding clouded and so the damage buff seemingly changes nothing
On December 03 2016 00:28 Ej_ wrote: "Let's what's new on TL!"
*spots anothrr "Buff mech" thread*
"Not much I guess"
Considering your nonchelant responce i dont think you even read the post before responding just knee jerk scoff at me based off the first line, thats a low content post if i ever saw one.
But Ej is completely right, even if he hasn't put it nicely enough to get a cookie from the kindergarten teachers.
This thread is built on the premise, that "mech" "needs" a buff. There are many such voice nowadays and all of them are unfounded, because the patch that completely changed both tanks and the things used against them, has been out for a very short time.
If this was the first groundbreaking observation that "mech" (whatever that exactly is, even proponents of it can't agree apparently) is weak and something needs to be done asap, then I understand why a short dismissive response is rude, but that is just not what is happening here, this is nothing but whine, and it is even one that is extremely prevalent. At what point do we get to laugh at it?
You are of the conviction mech shouldnt be viable when clearly a gross part of the community does, and Ej_ did not read the post and so he is out of line saying what he did, and so are you for agreeing with him
if you had read the post, checked the timestamps you would agree that blinding cloud is disproportionally strong even against the most experienced mech players of all time, when casuals face this on ladder they literally can not make mech work in lategame and this is a shame.
On December 03 2016 00:28 Ej_ wrote: "Let's what's new on TL!"
*spots anothrr "Buff mech" thread*
"Not much I guess"
Considering your nonchelant responce i dont think you even read the post before responding just knee jerk scoff at me based off the first line, thats a low content post if i ever saw one.
But Ej is completely right, even if he hasn't put it nicely enough to get a cookie from the kindergarten teachers.
This thread is built on the premise, that "mech" "needs" a buff. There are many such voice nowadays and all of them are unfounded, because the patch that completely changed both tanks and the things used against them, has been out for a very short time.
If this was the first groundbreaking observation that "mech" (whatever that exactly is, even proponents of it can't agree apparently) is weak and something needs to be done asap, then I understand why a short dismissive response is rude, but that is just not what is happening here, this is nothing but whine, and it is even one that is extremely prevalent. At what point do we get to laugh at it?
You are of the conviction mech shouldnt be viable when clearly a gross part of the community does, and Ej_ did not read the post and so he is out of line saying what he did, and so are you for agreeing with him
if you had read the post, checked the timestamps you would agree that blinding cloud is disproportionally strong even against the most experienced mech players of all time, when casuals face this on ladder they literally can not make mech work in lategame and this is a shame.
A handful of videos, from a different patch than is now played, proves absolutely nothing. Moreover, GM-level videos prove absolutely nothing about the experience of casuals.
An engagement does not exist in a vacuum. Do you still remember how a small queen range buff made broodlords OP? Yet, no single video of a queen or of a BL-based army brought any information about it. SC2 is a complex game and the fact that a given engagement goes in a specific way does not have much of an information value.
The casual claim is even more outrageous. I play zerg, one could say that "casually", because I am still in platinum after like 5000 games, so I am obviously not putting that much effort to it. But I do find "mech" armies pretty difficult to beat no matter how many vipers I make, because those are really difficult to control, in particular when the enemy has any anti air at all. Let me stress it again: high level games have very little bearing on what low level games look like and using "casuals" as an argument in this situation is just manipulative.
But again, you have not even addressed the point that there is simply not enough data to call mech UP in the current patch, which significantly increased the damage of the fucking tank itself. At no point neither myself or Ej said that we think "mech should not be viable" - but I definitely think that building more than one factory shouldn't be made into a victory condition. And I also think that all these posts that early into the development of the playstyles after a significant change do perfectly fulfill any sensible definition of "whine".
On December 03 2016 00:28 Ej_ wrote: "Let's what's new on TL!"
*spots anothrr "Buff mech" thread*
"Not much I guess"
Considering your nonchelant responce i dont think you even read the post before responding just knee jerk scoff at me based off the first line, thats a low content post if i ever saw one.
But Ej is completely right, even if he hasn't put it nicely enough to get a cookie from the kindergarten teachers.
This thread is built on the premise, that "mech" "needs" a buff. There are many such voice nowadays and all of them are unfounded, because the patch that completely changed both tanks and the things used against them, has been out for a very short time.
If this was the first groundbreaking observation that "mech" (whatever that exactly is, even proponents of it can't agree apparently) is weak and something needs to be done asap, then I understand why a short dismissive response is rude, but that is just not what is happening here, this is nothing but whine, and it is even one that is extremely prevalent. At what point do we get to laugh at it?
You are of the conviction mech shouldnt be viable when clearly a gross part of the community does, and Ej_ did not read the post and so he is out of line saying what he did, and so are you for agreeing with him
if you had read the post, checked the timestamps you would agree that blinding cloud is disproportionally strong even against the most experienced mech players of all time, when casuals face this on ladder they literally can not make mech work in lategame and this is a shame.
A handful of videos, from a different patch than is now played, proves absolutely nothing. Moreover, GM-level videos prove absolutely nothing about the experience of casuals.
An engagement does not exist in a vacuum. Do you still remember how a small queen range buff made broodlords OP? Yet, no single video of a queen or of a BL-based army brought any information about it. SC2 is a complex game and the fact that a given engagement goes in a specific way does not have much of an information value.
The casual claim is even more outrageous. I play zerg, one could say that "casually", because I am still in platinum after like 5000 games, so I am obviously not putting that much effort to it. But I do find "mech" armies pretty difficult to beat no matter how many vipers I make, because those are really difficult to control, in particular when the enemy has any anti air at all. Let me stress it again: high level games have very little bearing on what low level games look like and using "casuals" as an argument in this situation is just manipulative.
But again, you have not even addressed the point that there is simply not enough data to call mech UP in the current patch, which significantly increased the damage of the fucking tank itself. At no point neither myself or Ej said that we think "mech should not be viable" - but I definitely think that building more than one factory shouldn't be made into a victory condition. And I also think that all these posts that early into the development of the playstyles after a significant change do perfectly fulfill any sensible definition of "whine".
I think when people say viable, they mean viable in pro level games, because that's what matter in the end. Can a ladder player wins games using mech? Sure, but that's not the definition of viability commonly used. So, people were promised patch 3.8 would make mech viable. Yet, which pros are winning using mech (outside TvT)? Better yet, which pros are actually even trying to use mech? How can a style be considered viable when nobody even uses it? You can always claim that the patch is too new or whatever. But, given that mech wasn't viable before 3.8, and nobody is even trying to use it now, I wouldn't be so sure that mech is viable.
On December 03 2016 00:43 JayuSC2 wrote: Totally removing blinding cloud without tweaking numbers on some other units is totally gonna break the game and make mech too strong, either nerfing the radius, duration or mana cost seems like a better option
Also all these example videos are pre-patch, so they don't really account for the changes like raven and tank buffs etc... I think with some ravens and/or ghosts mixed in, mech can be viable, even at the top level.
Imo it's too early to jump to conclusions since we are only in a few days into the new patch and the meta is far from figured out.
This is extremely arrogant of you to say, nothing has changed with the viper since the patch, for the average terran player who is trying to learn mech blinding cloud is a reason i will never teach someone to go into lategame ever, for how easy it is to use, even the best progaming mech players are OFTEN completely caught off guard by it and it is fatal every time this occurrs, the average terran do not stand a snowballs chance in hell to win lategame with mech, not a snowballs chance in hell!
How is it arrogant? It's true that nothing has changed with the Viper itself, but unit interactions have changed with the raven for example, tanks also hit a lot harder, so if you removed the blinding cloud it would absolutely demolish everything on ground that the zerg has. I admit there is still abduct, but it would only make the games even more stale and draw them out way longer than necessary by having to abduct every single unit and never be able to engage the terran army full on.
Also you post examples of pro games, and then you talk about the average player? So what are we talking about now?
PS: I personally think, that especially at the average player's level, Mech is a lot more viable, because it is mechanically less demanding to play than bio. Just because pros get rekt by something doesn't necessarily mean that casuals get rekt by it even harder, because their opponent would also be a lot worse than the pro player's opponent (equal level of skill)