Community Feedback Update - Jan 6 + Jan 10 Update
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On January 18 2017 01:09 Phaenoman wrote: hiroshOne, I was evaluating the game, not asking for your one-directed obsession of defending the Zerg race/ attacking meching players. Gumiho played well. And Snute did not. I am not commenting on the mech viability, cuz that is something you do best apparently. So please keep the mech discussion to yourself. You gave your opinion on how Snute played and he gave his opinion on how Gumiho played. Your response was quite unwarranted. | ||
Phaenoman
568 Posts
On January 18 2017 01:17 RaFox17 wrote: You gave your opinion on how Snute played and he gave his opinion on how Gumiho played. Your response was quite unwarranted. His comment was another mech-directed post, not just an opinion on the match. | ||
RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On January 18 2017 01:21 Phaenoman wrote: His comment was another mech-directed post, not just an opinion on the match. The way he expressed his view was a little harsh but he gave reasons for why Gumiho played well and forced Snutes hand. He stated things that Gumi did in that particular match. | ||
hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
Mech is fine as AN OPTION for Terran. To mix it. Just as Zergs sometimes play Bling/muta or roach/ravager and shit. You will always have problems with mech being viable vs everything in every situation as mech is not a separate race but just an option for u to play. If i will play Roach/Ravager every matchup in every situation ignoring what my opponent is making- i will definitely lose more than win. I was triggered by Avilo when he stated that there is LITERALLY no pro games with succesful mech. I find this to be a lie. Just to prove his bs. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On January 17 2017 15:18 eviltomahawk wrote: Hopefully we might see more testing with FRB-like map ideas since this year Blizzard is opening up their mapmaking constraints somewhat such as the number of mineral/gas nodes per expansion. I'm still a tad salty that they changed the 6m1g expansions on Tal'Darim Altar and Daybreak, but hopefully we can see mapmakers iterate expansion design to something more optimal this year now that they'll hopefully be more free to do that. + Show Spoiler + thanks for posting the video. i watched and had forgotten about it. i hope they make good on this promise. i'd love to see some ladder maps with non-standard/unusual resource levels. On January 18 2017 01:42 hiroshOne wrote: Mech is fine as AN OPTION for Terran. To mix it. Just as Zergs sometimes play Bling/muta or roach/ravager and shit. You will always have problems with mech being viable vs everything in every situation as mech is not a separate race but just an option for u to play. If i will play Roach/Ravager every matchup in every situation ignoring what my opponent is making- i will definitely lose more than win. I was triggered by Avilo when he stated that there is LITERALLY no pro games with succesful mech. I find this to be a lie. Just to prove his bs. i agree. i play 60% of my games as Random and 40% as Terran in Diamond. I'm happy with Mech right now. for me its a solid OPTION as you call it. Which is exactly what DK wanted Mech to evolve into with LotV. Mech as an OPTION not an answer to everything or a race unto itself. Blizzard has done well with the post BlizzCon 2016 changes. i'm happy and having fun. | ||
c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
, especially if you are making mostly bionic, mech upgrades pay off big time even in small numbers of units (+1 to a tank is like 10% more dmg, you can reach a really discouraging amount of tanks really fast). you dont need 3/3 marines to buffer your mech, even if ur just cranking out 1/1 marines with stim and shields to go with ur mech, your composition will drastically improve, especially against a lot of the units mech struggles vs. if you dont buy it, go test in a unit tester. the interaction between the rapid fire rate of marines and large dmg blows from mech means less wasted shots from your shock cannons and more dead zerg. when it comes to tvp, mech upgrades are kinda questionable, but the plating and ship weapons are pretty standard now | ||
Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
I think ZvT balance (not design) is in a good spot and that swarm host strength is not that high of a priority in terms of balance (not design). Some players do mech in KR gm. It's still viable in some scenarios assuming zerg goes a certain route, and there are some moves you can make vs hosts: trying to force zerg away from making swarm host, pushing SH tech further back in time (say, a banshee into liberator opening) - the first minutes of the game are very important. When you delay the onset of the hosts, they lose their snowball effect. From there you can do a lot of cool fake pressure moves, too. But if you do something like 2base cloakshee expand and run into 2base muta into 3base swarm host, you will probably lose. Mech usually is not very favorable unless Zerg makes roach/hydra/viper/etc. I know there aren't that many swarm host games for reference. But I do have a small library of them and when I do play well, I find hosts to just destroy T if I get them out early enough. I've also played some SH games in previous series vs Gumiho and those games were wins in my favor. I'm a little bit surprised to not see hosts used more on the KR streams I've watched - there's actually a lot of roach hydra viper into broodlord going on still, and it often loses to bc/raven and stuff. I would love to contribute with something useful but honestly the mech samples on the highest levels of play are so small I don't really know what to think besides this. | ||
hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
On January 18 2017 14:41 Liquid`Snute wrote: The game i played vs gumi on overgrowth had a lot of bad decisions on my end, not my proudest zvmech I think ZvT balance (not design) is in a good spot and that swarm host strength is not that high of a priority in terms of balance (not design). Some players do mech in KR gm. It's still viable in some scenarios assuming zerg goes a certain route, and there are some moves you can make vs hosts: trying to force zerg away from making swarm host, pushing SH tech further back in time (say, a banshee into liberator opening) - the first minutes of the game are very important. When you delay the onset of the hosts, they lose their snowball effect. From there you can do a lot of cool fake pressure moves, too. But if you do something like 2base cloakshee expand and run into 2base muta into 3base swarm host, you will probably lose. Mech usually is not very favorable unless Zerg makes roach/hydra/viper/etc. I know there aren't that many swarm host games for reference. But I do have a small library of them and when I do play well, I find hosts to just destroy T if I get them out early enough. I've also played some SH games in previous series vs Gumiho and those games were wins in my favor. I'm a little bit surprised to not see hosts used more on the KR streams I've watched - there's actually a lot of roach hydra viper into broodlord going on still, and it often loses to bc/raven and stuff. I would love to contribute with something useful but honestly the mech samples on the highest levels of play are so small I don't really know what to think besides this. Thank You Snute for jumping in. But concidering all things you said. Do u think that Swarmhosts along with Vipers should be nerfed because they are making mech unviable? Honestly i also think that all the problems with balancing mech are sourced in design, but nerfing those two units would break the game for Zerg and we could have HOTS mech after SH nerf again. | ||
Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On January 18 2017 14:41 Liquid`Snute wrote: The game i played vs gumi on overgrowth had a lot of bad decisions on my end, not my proudest zvmech I think ZvT balance (not design) is in a good spot and that swarm host strength is not that high of a priority in terms of balance (not design). Some players do mech in KR gm. It's still viable in some scenarios assuming zerg goes a certain route, and there are some moves you can make vs hosts: trying to force zerg away from making swarm host, pushing SH tech further back in time (say, a banshee into liberator opening) - the first minutes of the game are very important. When you delay the onset of the hosts, they lose their snowball effect. From there you can do a lot of cool fake pressure moves, too. But if you do something like 2base cloakshee expand and run into 2base muta into 3base swarm host, you will probably lose. Mech usually is not very favorable unless Zerg makes roach/hydra/viper/etc. I know there aren't that many swarm host games for reference. But I do have a small library of them and when I do play well, I find hosts to just destroy T if I get them out early enough. I've also played some SH games in previous series vs Gumiho and those games were wins in my favor. I'm a little bit surprised to not see hosts used more on the KR streams I've watched - there's actually a lot of roach hydra viper into broodlord going on still, and it often loses to bc/raven and stuff. I would love to contribute with something useful but honestly the mech samples on the highest levels of play are so small I don't really know what to think besides this. Thanks Snute for a well detailed experience with swarm hosts. A question, when you say delay the hosts, do you mean things like drone harass (esp. the ones in gas), or forcing you to use larvae on combat units instead of drones? What are some of the effective ways your hosts are delayed? And what numbers do you need to start that 'snowball' effect you mentioned? | ||
MockHamill
Sweden1793 Posts
I think it would be a good start to just increase the cost of Swarm Hosts and see if this leads to mech being more common on pro level. | ||
KOtical
Germany451 Posts
On January 07 2017 09:59 Solar424 wrote: Is there a reason Blizzard loves Terran so much? PvT winrate is the worst it's been in years and they say "we're looking into it" as they always do, but when Adepts were plaguing the matchup they got nerfed within a 2 weeks. 2 weeks? release was november 10th 2015 and the adept change was on 29th january 2016... so its been more like 3 months not 2 weeks... i hate it when people try to sell their oppinions as facts... also i wanna state something on the oppinion that protoss is the least played race as for now, ya thats true and i know why! its because 90% of protoss players left the game with the start of lotv, because they didnt had any deathball army in lotv. i know this is a fact because my protoss friends all left the game because of that reason, they didnt like the new units especially the disruptor, wich made the army harder to controll... also they didnt know how to counter the liberator at that time, wich made the game very frustrating for them. | ||
Elentos
55454 Posts
On January 18 2017 19:36 KOtical wrote: 2 weeks? release was november 10th 2015 and the adept change was on 29th january 2016... so its been more like 3 months not 2 weeks... i hate it when people try to sell their oppinions as facts... Including beta adepts were in that state for almost half a year. | ||
JackONeill
861 Posts
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
On January 18 2017 19:46 JackONeill wrote: Was there any reason given for why there was no community update last week? did they announce theyll do an update every week? | ||
Aiobhill
Germany283 Posts
On January 18 2017 19:36 KOtical wrote: i hate it when people try to sell their oppinions as facts... also i wanna state something on the oppinion that protoss is the least played race as for now, ya thats true and i know why! its because 90% of protoss players left the game with the start of lotv, because they didnt had any deathball army in lotv. i know this is a fact because my protoss friends all left the game because of that reason... Google 'fact'. Google 'anecdote'. Edit your shit. | ||
parkufarku
882 Posts
On January 18 2017 17:56 MockHamill wrote: Well maybe it is overkill to nerf both Swarm Hosts and Vipers. I think it would be a good start to just increase the cost of Swarm Hosts and see if this leads to mech being more common on pro level. Sure we can nerf swarm hosts if we can nerf tank damage, liberator major nerf, and widow mine cost raise | ||
parkufarku
882 Posts
On January 18 2017 19:36 KOtical wrote: also i wanna state something on the oppinion that protoss is the least played race as for now, ya thats true and i know why! its because 90% of protoss players left the game with the start of lotv, because they didnt had any deathball army in lotv. i know this is a fact because my protoss friends all left the game because of that reason, they didnt like the new units especially the disruptor, wich made the army harder to controll... also they didnt know how to counter the liberator at that time, wich made the game very frustrating for them. This is why you Terrans need to start acknowledging that your race is currently really problematic in both ZvT and TvP, for the sake of keeping this game alive | ||
Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
On January 18 2017 15:00 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Thanks Snute for a well detailed experience with swarm hosts. A question, when you say delay the hosts, do you mean things like drone harass (esp. the ones in gas), or forcing you to use larvae on combat units instead of drones? What are some of the effective ways your hosts are delayed? And what numbers do you need to start that 'snowball' effect you mentioned? On January 18 2017 14:50 hiroshOne wrote: Thank You Snute for jumping in. But concidering all things you said. Do u think that Swarmhosts along with Vipers should be nerfed because they are making mech unviable? Honestly i also think that all the problems with balancing mech are sourced in design, but nerfing those two units would break the game for Zerg and we could have HOTS mech after SH nerf again. what I meant by delaying the hosts is that, say, if you open up with a cloak banshee build, it's very hard for the swarm host player to move out. you'll have to invest into a spire, nydus, queendrops, etc. before it's possible to move out with the hosts. this pushes the hosts back in time. I think 15-20 hosts is where things start getting really out of hand for terran, but it also depends on what stage of the game terran is in. a 200/200 terran will be able to deal with a lot of hosts pretty well, but the sooner they hit the more damage they can cause. Whirlwind Cross positions with a banshee hellion opening is a good example of shutting down someone who forgets their spire, for example. Great setup for mech. I really don't know what to nerf if you'd nerf zerg. Ground zerg is garbage vs tanks save for the hosts (for a while) - hosts fall off around 200/200, and raven/bc/ghost destroys sky zerg very well (?). It's just about the timing windows, maybe? I wouldn't mind a small price increase for the hosts to make the host count increase more slowly.. but if you nerf the cost too much and it becomes unusable you might end up with an OP situation if T super-late game proves to be unbeatable. Thors for example are really really good vs brood lords, and yamato is crazy good. The blinding cloud nerf was already a very big nerf to zerg ground vs mech, viper doesn't feel too strong vs that. I wouldn't nerf the viper that much. Pbomb and abduct are the best spells right now. But idk if sky zerg vs sky terran is what people are complaining about. Most of what I've heard from mech terrans is actually about the early hosts, not sky zerg/pbomb lategame. So who knows <_> personally i don't think sky zerg is even that strong, playing with hosts feels way better. | ||
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