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I watched both international post-proleague tournaments, WESG and NationWars, and I have this strong feeling that Koreans look invincible right now (I mean, more than usual ).
The way Showtime and Neeb (probably 2 of the best 3 foreigners ATM) got crushed by Maru and TY left me speechless. It was like Maru and TY were playing with the game speed on faster, and the two others were playing on slow.
At this point, a strange thought comes to my mind: Is Korean sc2 team houses closing a good thing?
Also, like all SC2 fans, I saw ByuN's GSL victory, the first guy to win a GSL without a team. We know he has a long list of sparring partners, he plays custom games with the best players in the world (Koreans and foreigners), and he was able to win GSL through that.
With team houses closing, now the Korean pro players can train as they want, with any sparring partner they want, and are free to register for any foreign tournament. I think the end result is that some of them have become stronger.
Former CJ Bunny comes to my mind. I follow his stream closely and I see a very strong terran player, able to remain at the top of the Korean ladder. During the proleague era, I never saw him as one of the top Korean terrans, while ATM he looks very skilled.
I can't wait for more international tournaments in 2017, because of the opportunities to observe Korean skill level evolution in comparison to foreigner skill level evolution.
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The only foreign tournament that is "Open" to Koreans at the moment is IEM Katowice. So I don't know how you're going to see that
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France12463 Posts
TvP is not Protoss favored anymore or so I heard, so better terrans win more easily against lesser Protoss. Nation wars was close and KR even lost a match against Canada.
What you can gather from WESG and NW about KR vs foreigners is that foreign zergs are doing better than foreign protosses, and that MarineLord's skill dropped quite fast after his OW transition since he got crushed by semi retired Stephano.
ByuN is an anomaly, not the norm, but some players like Taeja (Rain? PartinG as well maybe?) perform better outside of KR teamhouses indeed.
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You said that you watched WESG and Nation Wars.. yet no words on NW4 where Koreans didnt really look THAT invincible..
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On January 24 2017 18:59 Vanillatoss wrote: You said that you watched WESG and Nation Wars.. yet no words on NW4 where Koreans didnt really look THAT invincible.. Like that time where they lost two games in the qualifiers, or that time where lost to Semper of all people and Scarlett, or that time where they almost lost to Poland.
For sure, the tip top Koreans do very well (though to be fair PvT balance has been pretty awful lately, so I don't take a huge stock in the 3-0s over ShoWTimE or Neeb), but the thing is that Zest and Innovation looked beatable over the course of this tournament. And these guys are supposed to be some of the best. Zest is arguably a top 5 Protoss if not slightly higher, and Innovation is a top 5 Terran.
And yes, they won, but they did not have the same air of invincibility they used to have.
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I think it's more of a motivational thing. Last year they were probably demoralized because their teamhouses where they lived for years were going to close. Now a lot of them are probably practicing hardcore trying to survive in this new post-kespa era. They don't have salaries anymore so no results means no money which inevitably leads to retirement. Time will tell if they keep it up.
On January 24 2017 20:02 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 18:59 Vanillatoss wrote: You said that you watched WESG and Nation Wars.. yet no words on NW4 where Koreans didnt really look THAT invincible.. Like that time where they lost two games in the qualifiers, or that time where lost to Semper of all people and Scarlett, or that time where they almost lost to Poland. For sure, the tip top Koreans do very well (though to be fair PvT balance has been pretty awful lately, so I don't take a huge stock in the 3-0s over ShoWTimE or Neeb), but the thing is that Zest and Innovation looked beatable over the course of this tournament. And these guys are supposed to be some of the best. Zest is arguably a top 5 Protoss if not slightly higher, and Innovation is a top 5 Terran. And yes, they won, but they did not have the same air of invincibility they used to have. Maru also destroyed Nerchio and Scarlett and Inno only looked beatable to cheese. wonder why nobody tried a straight up game vs him. yeah Zest and sOs looked beatable but they aren't really top players atm, Zest got knocked out of Code S by Keen. At WESG they surely had an aura of invincibility. Also at HSC koreans won every series except 1.
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On January 24 2017 20:42 Charoisaur wrote: Also at HSC koreans won every series except 1. Home Story Cup? what about HSC V? (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/5)
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On January 24 2017 18:41 showstealer1829 wrote: The only foreign tournament that is "Open" to Koreans at the moment is IEM Katowice. So I don't know how you're going to see that
I mean, I hope to see it in every online or offline tournament inviting some Koreans along with foreigners. I know some famous casters (BTV, Wardi, TB) want, as many people I think, to see more games Kor vs For, and without salary right now, Koreans will come to earn cashprices.
I still believe teamhouses seemed to be a great tool for Koreans pro players, but could be brakes for some of them.
True. Right now they play (really) for money, so clearly it is a motivation boost.
I follow the game since 2012, I watch a lot of games, more than I play, I never miss a GSL match as I never missed a proleague round, and I still surprised some of you don't realise how good top koreans are ATM. Maru and TY was stratospheric in WESG, since december 2016 Innovation won Leifeng Cup #157 and #158, Make Korea Great Again #1, Olimoleague january and NW3, just all of the tournaments in whish he has participated, dark is probably the best Zerg in the world... I don't know. I feel they look way above the rest.
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Terran is broken atm, so ye, they Maru and TY crushing everyone left and right
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I had a totally different reaction after watching NW4. Aside from the Korean Terrans, I feel like the gap is definitely starting to close. The SK players are clearly the best of the best, but foreign players are definitely hanging. Nerchio looked like he could play with anyone that weekend.
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Worst thread title in the history of TL
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On January 25 2017 03:09 Clazziquai10 wrote: Worst thread title in the history of TL
agreed, reading it made me lose braincells
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come on nerchio was on the verge of exposing korea
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On January 24 2017 18:33 Sound1 wrote:
The way Showtime and Neeb (probably 2 of the best 3 foreigners ATM) have been crushed by Maru and TY let me speechless. It was like Maru and TY play with speed game on fast, and the two others play on low.
I think you should look at the PvT winrate right. It has never been worse except on the release of HOTS and release of WOL. High level Terrans are winning nearly 60% of the time regardless of whether they are foreign or Korean, so picking out some matches of Korean Terrans versus foreign Protoss players is misleading.
Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
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On January 25 2017 03:09 Clazziquai10 wrote: Worst thread title in the history of TL
Best post on TL. /sarcasm edit: thanks captain.
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On January 25 2017 03:31 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 18:33 Sound1 wrote:
The way Showtime and Neeb (probably 2 of the best 3 foreigners ATM) have been crushed by Maru and TY let me speechless. It was like Maru and TY play with speed game on fast, and the two others play on low.
I think you should look at the PvT winrate right. It has never been worse except on the release of HOTS and release of WOL. High level Terrans are winning nearly 60% of the time regardless of whether they are foreign or Korean, so picking out some matches of Korean Terrans versus foreign Protoss players is misleading. Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ then where were the foreign terrans at WESG? Also tvz is balanced and Maru still destroyed Nerchio and Scarlett, the skill difference between koreans and foreigners is just massive atm.
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Just throwing my own two cents in here.
Looking at recent tournaments, it doesn't seem that the gap in general is huge. Rather, there are simply a few players in particular that are ruling the scene as of now, in both Korea and the world. Because these players are Korean, people are assuming there is a gap for all Koreans, when I'd argue that it really isn't the case. (Zest vs Nerchio for instance, they traded quite evenly)
The aforementioned players are of course the Terran Tetrarchs: Byun, Innovation, Maru, and TY. Though it is worth noting that Korean Terrans have historically been very strong, ever since the good old days of Mvp, MMA, Polt, etc. For one reason or another, while there have been great foreigners like Stephano, Nerchio, and more recently Neeb, Scarlett, etc, there has never really been a great foreign Terran.
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On January 25 2017 03:50 pvsnp wrote: Just throwing my own two cents in here.
Looking at recent tournaments, it doesn't seem that the gap in general is huge. Rather, there are simply a few players in particular that are ruling the scene as of now, in both Korea and the world. Because these players are Korean, people are assuming there is a gap for all Koreans, when I'd argue that it really isn't the case. (Zest vs Nerchio for instance, they traded quite evenly)
The aforementioned players are of course the Terran Tetrarchs: Byun, Innovation, Maru, and TY. Dark, Stats, herO and Solar are on the same level as those terrans imo and would probably crush every foreigner too.
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Dark, Stats, herO and Solar are on the same level as those terrans imo and would probably crush every foreigner too.
I agree in that they would win, but I don't know if it would be as one-sided. The problem is that foreigners have great Protosses and Zergs, but no great Terrans. So when Korean Terrans just roll in and roflstomp, people cry that Terran is OP because the best foreigners have never faced anything like it and consequently are ill-prepared.
Showtime said as much:
Oh, and I will also note that with the exception of Dark, I don't think anyone can defy the Tetrarchy at the moment. herO lost to Maru is GSL and Inno in GSLTV (though he is looking better recently, beating Byun) Stats is in a similar boat ever since IEM. Solar went 0-2 against TY in GSL, then lost to Trap (!) and was knocked out entirely.
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