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Well in general i like some of the changes of the last big balance patch. The new cyclone is really good and allows agressive mech against zerg (its fine because this leads to agressive mech which is different from turtle style).
T v T is much better without stupid tankivacs which made positioning a no brainer because you could just replace your tanks instantly. This was the worst thing that ever happened to TvT its really nice that we got rid of stupid no brainer tankivacs!
But there is a big problem with Tier 3 air Units in this game ( Mutas, Phoenix, Banshees, Viking and Corrupter are totally fine).
Terran mass ravens are broken (auto turret spam). Also the liberator is a bit too powerfull (i know perhaps they will change it with next balance patch). Protoss carriers are totally broken (if he has critical mass x carriers with the right combo like high templars the army is nearly unbetable). Not only for zerg but also for terran.
I can live with zerg air but there should be a look at vipers (perhaps a little health reduction).
The problem in SC II Lotv is that we have too much air battles in lategame which are cancer for the game.Because you remove all strategic positioning and Tier 3 air can only be countered with air (which is stupid game design). And no terran bio doesnt counter the protoss lategame Combo (storm +x) with mass carriers. Also the Argument dont let him get there is totally stupid this counts also for terran mass bc`s or ravens dont let him get there or he autowins is bad gamedesign!
The phillosophy to Counter air Units with air Units is bad. All races need good ground Units to counter air.
Perhaps the swarmohst could be reworked to counter Tier 3 air units for zerg.
Terran has no real factory unit to counter Tier 3 air units. Pls buff the thor spash damge against carriers. Against zerg thors are mediocre against bl Viper corrupter. But at least its an option.
Perhaps Archons could be buffed against air or a Stalker buff for airdamge against Tier 3 Units.
We have to get rid off mass spam Tier 3 air Units its really bad for the game! Tier 3 air Units should be more niche like they were in Broodwar its better for the game.
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tvt is better now? only if you like doomdrops, where you cant do anything about it but mass turrets. really fun!
agree on carriers. they need a nerf really bad! its just ridiculous in combination with storm.
again the "give mech aa" discussion.. build some vikings + ravens -> AA done. i never understood why terrans want to build everything from 1 building (youre not zerg lol..). build a god damn starport or two and build vikings. wheres the problem? they are such a f..ing good AA in combination with pdd. and against viper - learn to split. youre doing it with bio, so why dont you do it with vikings? its even easier with vikings, because theres no terrain, which could limit your movements.
zerg would have an antiair, if hydras finally would get the 10 hp buff. this buff in combination to a return to a 25 mins cost per interceptor would solve every air problem for zerg.
terran on the other hand.. as i said, vikings + ravens. but PLZ, remove the auto turret. would also solve every terran mass air problem.
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Was air t3 actually niche in BW? I was watching ASL finals a few days ago and apparently the optimal composition was a couple of science vessels + BCs
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This post sounds a bit troll to me, like a bnet forum post. I don't think any terran player doesn't prefer tankivac over the current meta.
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I would like to see a big nerf to all air units, but it's just delusional to think they will change anything big at this point. The game is not worth investing time into anymore.
Btw, enough with the mech talk. No race can do the same unit composition for every match up, so stop asking for factory only gameplay every game and deal with it, we've had enough of avilo fans whine.
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On January 24 2017 20:35 MLuneth wrote: Was air t3 actually niche in BW? I was watching ASL finals a few days ago and apparently the optimal composition was a couple of science vessels + BCs
i think when you're saying optimal you're also referring to the ideals.
when you build bcs, you still have a ground army and turrets to hold your bases for some time. even more than just having BCs and a science vessel or two, the ideal is having more BC's than your opponent to just straight up attack and win. even more ideal than that is killing them before they ever get enough to tech switch; so on and so forth.
I think most of the problem in these sc2 games is letting the opponent tech straight to air, then carriers shortly after. players then try to take the non-air approach to making counter units in order to win an engagement, then end up losing. it is a strategy game after all, there are many ways to abuse air-teching opponents. one method is learning to play better, threatening and forcing the player to spend that t3 money on defenses rather on their late game units.
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On January 24 2017 20:45 Cosmos wrote: This post sounds a bit troll to me, like a bnet forum post. I don't think any terran player doesn't prefer tankivac over the current meta.
Are you joking? TvT is much better state now compared to the awful tankivacs that turned TvT from a RTS into an arcade game. But a nerf to medivac speed boost in order to discourage doom dropping would improve the game in all matchups.
Regarding the OP I agree with every single point. Ground is much more interesting then Air since ground cares about the map and how you position your troops which is the core of a good RTS.
Everything in this game that ignores the terrain should be toned down. Medivac speed, Nydus worm, BC teleport, Mothership core teleport etc.
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TvT doom drops need fixing but in a way that will not affect TvP, as P has enough tools at their disposal to deal with it. What that fix is I do not know.
All air units should be support for ground armies, including mech ground armies. Diversity in composition makes the game more interesting than massing one type of unit (e.g. just factory units).
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Im sorry to be lost here, but what is the problem with doom drops in tvt? I watched Maru vs Ty in WESG and those games were way better than any tankivac game from before...
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Even if carriers would be 'balanced' (After all, Protoss needs to survive until they have enough carriers, which can be hard), it is still a not-fun-no-skill unit. They're there. They kill stuff. That's about all the interaction there is. And it's very hard to tell what's happening. Even professional casters are now blurting things like " I don't know who's winning here... it looks like... no, I can't... see... Well maybe... Hm, I guess Zest won".
If casters can't tell, how will a gold league player know what to improve in that battle?
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On January 24 2017 20:35 MLuneth wrote: Was air t3 actually niche in BW? I was watching ASL finals a few days ago and apparently the optimal composition was a couple of science vessels + BCs
Games like that are quite rare. It only reached this stage because flash is insanely good. Most games are over more quickly ( as you have seen in the other games of the series)
kogeT also said that wraiths beat BCs cost for cost
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On January 24 2017 21:43 TwiggyWan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 20:35 MLuneth wrote: Was air t3 actually niche in BW? I was watching ASL finals a few days ago and apparently the optimal composition was a couple of science vessels + BCs Games like that are quite rare. It only reached this stage because flash is insanely good. Most games are over more quickly ( as you have seen in the other games of the series)
yep, tank-goliath-dropship would be the army composite. Maybe some addition of wraiths sometimes to catch someone offguard. If the game goes into positional map split, then nukes/BCs are a possibility too
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@dalaiisc2
Sorry but you have no clue about TvT. Tankivacs where the worst thing for the game! It destroyed the beauty of TvT. Doomdrops happended more often with stupid tankivacs. And they destroyed positional play (not only in TvT). Im glad that they are deleted from the game and will never come back!
Again pls stop the stupid arguments that mech palyers only want to make units from factory. A bio Player makes mainly Units from the Baracks and some Units from the starport. If i play full mech i also have one or 2 starports to build support units. But my main production source is the factory like in bio it is the barracks! But ist bad for gameplay that Tier 3 airunits destroy a complete style of Play. Imagine folllowing situation. You play full mech.
You see your Opponent goes carriers. You have 8 Factorys. Now the eight factory are usless and youll have to build 6+ starports to counter his Tier 3 air tech. You know what, you are fucked because it takes too much time to build mass starports and to do the tech switch. Do you know what terrans did in broodwar they build a unit called Goliath air to ground with weak ground attack!
Blizzard Needs to realize that Tier 3 air Units have to get a rework! The big Balance patch was to make mech viable. One good thing that happened was the rework of the cyclone (Innovation showed how to use it against zerg). Buit we need more changes to impove the game.
Also i said that Tier 3 air Units for all races are bad. So i was not only complaining about mech not viable. Pls stop putting my post out of context!!!!
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On January 24 2017 20:54 xTJx wrote: I would like to see a big nerf to all air units, but it's just delusional to think they will change anything big at this point. The game is not worth investing time into anymore.
Btw, enough with the mech talk. No race can do the same unit composition for every match up, so stop asking for factory only gameplay every game and deal with it, we've had enough of avilo fans whine. Maybe you should stop going into the mindset that everyone who wants to play Mech is an avilo fan. Hell there are even Mech Players who dislike him because he gives the the playstyle a bad reputation. Mech is more defensive than Bio it lies in its nature. And turtling is a legit strategy. ofc it shouldn´t be NEVER attack like the mess it was in HotS against Swarmhosts (which was Mass Raven and not Mech btw). Turtling is in every RTS game because its one of the core startegies in RTS games:
Rushing Guerilla Steamroll Turtling
And a good terran player plays both styles, Bio and Mech. Maybe YOU should deal with it that its part of Terran´s identity. And why is it delusional to think they make big changes? They made a huge Redesign update not too long ago which no one was expecting and as far as I know it was quite well recieved. They just need to tweak things out here and there and the game should be good. Some things didn´t worked out that well but this can happen in a game that is so dependant on good balancing. Things that don´t look OP in a beta can turn out to be the opposite when it goes live and everybody plays with the changes.
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I'm surprised that the consensus seems to be that the changes have been bad. I think Carriers could use a tweak similar to what Liberator is getting now to make it a little less OP, but I love that tier 3 air units are actually usable now. I feel like we are seeing more diversity which is great. I think Zerg is in a good spot balance wise, especially once Carriers get tweaked down a bit (hopefully not nerfed back into obscurity though). I think Terran mech needs an answer to air units from the factory. Whether that's increasing Cyclone damage or adding the Goliath IDK, but it's really hard to transition into something else if you've invested a lot into factories. Thors help a little but ultimately don't cut it. The liberator nerf should really help Protoss a lot without breaking the Liberator or making tanks suffer. But these are all very easily correctable issues.
Either way though the above is nitpicking for me, I like where the game is now.
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On January 24 2017 21:43 TwiggyWan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 20:35 MLuneth wrote: Was air t3 actually niche in BW? I was watching ASL finals a few days ago and apparently the optimal composition was a couple of science vessels + BCs Games like that are quite rare. It only reached this stage because flash is insanely good. Most games are over more quickly ( as you have seen in the other games of the series) kogeT also said that wraiths beat BCs cost for cost I don't think BC's are that uncommon in BW TvT. I can think of several examples from the KeSPA era. Those split-map scenarios are not that rare, and breaking those stalemates necessitate either mass BC's, mass Wraiths, or a bit of both as long as it wins the air fight. I believe BW TvT got a bad reputation from these long games, though it's my favorite mirror match in BW.
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On January 24 2017 20:35 MLuneth wrote: Was air t3 actually niche in BW? I was watching ASL finals a few days ago and apparently the optimal composition was a couple of science vessels + BCs That's TvT though, the only matchup that ends up like that.
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TvT is so painful to play right now, was a mistake to remove tankivacs
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@starkiller123
TvT has its Beauty back. It was cancer to see always tankivacs dropping on each other. You removed positionalö Play from the game now TvT is more strtegical which is fun to Play and to watch!
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