Balance change to nerf TvT doomdrops - Page 3
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Hadronsbecrazy
United Kingdom551 Posts
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
Medivac Boost is a terrible idea, always has been. The counter to drops is shooting them down, Boosters make it difficult, limiting counterplay, just like Warp Prism range pickup limits counterplay versus Warp Prism drops. I only somewhat agree with the likening of boost to prism pickup range. It does limit reaction counterplay but it does NOT impact the case of trying to get in against a well prepared player, which boost totally does. The big difference there is that Prisms take primarily shield damage. Even if you can't kill Medivacs, because of their pickup range you have to expose them to fire and you can eventually force them out. The Prism stays in until it really truly dies. That said, turning the Prism into a normal dropship instead of the lulzball it's now (even keeping the auto-proxy because we'll never actually get rid of that abomination of a mechanic) and slowing down boosted medivacs a bit so they take more fire sounds like a nice idea. Far from the most important problems in the game, but... | ||
WhosQuany
Germany257 Posts
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
just build some vikings or turrets, or just have a good position with a squad of marines... so instead of nerfing everything can people just start to adept ? i mean sc1 and bw didnt had any changes for years and people still found out things and adepted to certain builds and situations... instead nowadays everybody just runs to a forum and starts to cry... | ||
Fatam
1986 Posts
On February 17 2017 20:21 VHbb wrote: I fully agree.. these threads keep popping up, but it always feel like it's a "Wannabe game designer mega-thread" If you struggle against something it doesn't mean it's "bad design" or "bad unit interaction", maybe there are solutions which haven't been explored yet. Mech players *always* ask for more positional games, it seems to me that positioning your army to prevent doom drops or to react accordingly could be "positional gameplay" right? I don't want to see TvT where each player sieges and turtles all game long because their positions are unbreakable. I understand that right now terrans are the majority of the playerbase (maybe I'm wrong), but it seems every week there are 1-2 new threads of "game design": I will *always* trust blizzard over someone on TL, unless it's the opinion of a pro that knows the game in and out.. To add to this, most comments in these threads are super harsh and expressed with tones that would never be used in a real conversation, which makes it really toxic to read.. I think on the other side of the coin, just because it's possible to deal with something in-game, doesn't mean it's not bad game design. IMO medivac boost is bad game design because the risk/reward relationship is really off. I'm not just saying that because I'm an armchair game designer or whatever | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 17 2017 23:57 Fatam wrote: I think on the other side of the coin, just because it's possible to deal with something in-game, doesn't mean it's not bad game design. IMO medivac boost is bad game design because the risk/reward relationship is really off. I wanted to make a similar comment. You also have to consider that (bio) terran gets medivacs no matter what anyway, so the investment to do a doomdrop is basically not there, it develops naturally. That's something i really dislike about medivacs in general tbh. It gives terran something to circumvent any terrain and that in every single game. I think that alone is way off in terms of gamedesign tbh. You could argue that it comes kinda late in the game and thus isn't a big deal, but i am not so sure about that either. But the medivac itself won't ever change so removing the boost is the next best thing, so yeah i agree with that. (also means other things need change most likely, but that's not a bad thing) | ||
c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On February 18 2017 00:03 The_Red_Viper wrote: I wanted to make a similar comment. You also have to consider that (bio) terran gets medivacs no matter what anyway, so the investment to do a doomdrop is basically not there, it develops naturally. That's something i really dislike about medivacs in general tbh. It gives terran something to circumvent any terrain and that in every single game. I think that alone is way off in terms of gamedesign tbh. You could argue that it comes kinda late in the game and thus isn't a big deal, but i am not so sure about that either. But the medivac itself won't ever change so removing the boost is the next best thing, so yeah i agree with that. (also means other things need change most likely, but that's not a bad thing) as much as i agree with most of this post, i have no idea how id win a gaem as terran vp/z without current bio forces/medivac forces. factory units are just so fucking bad, idk. even with all the buffs, terran is balanced around bio being broken so everything else sucks. like siege tanks basically do twice as much damage to zealots as they did in their weakest stage, and they are still totally garbage vs toss (its definitely one of the "better" factory/starport units) | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 18 2017 00:12 c0sm0naut wrote: as much as i agree with most of this post, i have no idea how id win a gaem as terran vp/z without current bio forces/medivac forces. factory units are just so fucking bad, idk. even with all the buffs, terran is balanced around bio being broken so everything else sucks. like siege tanks basically do twice as much damage to zealots as they did in their weakest stage, and they are still totally garbage vs toss (its definitely one of the "better" factory/starport units) Oh yeah i am not saying that you could change that atm and have a balanced game without a lot of other changes as well. I am simply saying i dislike it quite a lot. But yeah you cannot realistically change that anymore, at least not if blizzard isn't willing to do a lot of work. So i am fine with smaller changes, like removing the booster and balance around that | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On February 17 2017 01:49 verlar wrote: Doomdrops are part of TvT. When you cant break siege line of your opponent you do doomdrop, otherwise you both will just stare at sieged tanks for 30 minutes. Tankivacs made doomdrops much weaker while many poeple thougt that every terran will just drop tanks in opponent base. In my opinion change from this topic would not change much. Terran while doomdropping has enough medivacs to take everything. Top players (like top 8) know where is opponent army, when something is missing they immediately defend their main base. I requires a lot of experience, good positioning, good scouting, several marines spreaded out on map. Overall, sorry but TvT is very dynamic matchup. The dps is insane, even without tanks marines kill buildings very fast. 1 tank less wont change anything. Maybe better make upgrade for sensor tower that it will see whole map xD i pretty much agree with everything in this post... even the joke at the end is good. | ||
brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On February 18 2017 00:12 c0sm0naut wrote:factory units are just so fucking bad, idk. even with all the buffs, terran is balanced around bio being broken so everything else sucks. terrans will literally always say this no matter what if factory units arent completely broken and stupid beyond any doubt (like beta warhounds and cyclones) terrans will call them useless | ||
Zulu23
Germany132 Posts
this doesn't affect TvZ/TvP at all it does actually... so its no route that shall be considered. Medivacs are your problem... nerfing drops will make T to turtle and be passive all day long, because there is no other viable option to counter or suprize the other T. | ||
c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On February 18 2017 00:38 brickrd wrote: terrans will literally always say this no matter what if factory units arent completely broken and stupid beyond any doubt (like beta warhounds and cyclones) terrans will call them useless not the convo i was looking for, also i play random we are discussing implications of larger nerfs to the medivac if you would like to join us. not going to spend m,ore than 1 sentence explaining 2 u why progamers who put in 8 hr days for a little over a half decade havent discovered a more gamewinning strategy than loading upgraded marines into a unit that bypasses terrain | ||
egrimm
Poland1196 Posts
On February 18 2017 00:03 The_Red_Viper wrote: I wanted to make a similar comment. You also have to consider that (bio) terran gets medivacs no matter what anyway, so the investment to do a doomdrop is basically not there, it develops naturally. That's something i really dislike about medivacs in general tbh. Fully agree. On paper Medivacs as a combination of medic + dropship makes sense. Also we can see the unit all the time in Terran games, played a lot and used in many situations so it would seem it is more than ok design. However the combination of both medic and dropship forces bio play into one specific gamestyle: drop&stim. It is cool strategy ofc and It should stay in the game by any means. But on the other hand You cannot play slightly different approaches to bio like for example mass bio, muscle play but without drops or on totally opposite direction mass drops but without the stim+medic efficiency, cut gas for medics for more drops and faster idk transition into something else. This is the thing when You go for bio you simply cannot skip dropping as You have to have healing for your army which comes with droping ability and if you don't use it you're wasting part of your investment into medivac. The game is obv balanced around using all your tools efficiently so not dropping is not viable strategy. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On February 17 2017 13:15 avilo wrote: Every TvT i play atm is "locate the 8 hidden medivacs on the map". Then just hold it off and get a freewin. due to your repetitive and stale play style as soon as an opponent sees your name they know what you are going to do. They also know the standard counter is a JuggernautJason style doom stop. furthermore, according to you, a substantial portion of your TvT losses are due to being stream sniped. therefore, this experience of yours is not evidence that the Tank's Supply cost inside a medivac should be increased. | ||
saalih416
19 Posts
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5207 Posts
On February 17 2017 20:21 VHbb wrote: I fully agree.. these threads keep popping up, but it always feel like it's a "Wannabe game designer mega-thread" If you struggle against something it doesn't mean it's "bad design" or "bad unit interaction", maybe there are solutions which haven't been explored yet. Mech players *always* ask for more positional games, it seems to me that positioning your army to prevent doom drops or to react accordingly could be "positional gameplay" right? I don't want to see TvT where each player sieges and turtles all game long because their positions are unbreakable. I understand that right now terrans are the majority of the playerbase (maybe I'm wrong), but it seems every week there are 1-2 new threads of "game design": I will *always* trust blizzard over someone on TL, unless it's the opinion of a pro that knows the game in and out.. To add to this, most comments in these threads are super harsh and expressed with tones that would never be used in a real conversation, which makes it really toxic to read.. Don't trust experts just because they experts, that is an argument of authority and it fallacious. Trust ideas because you've read them and understand them. Game design isn't rocket science, and the same arguments you're pedaling were used to defend Vortex, Broodlord/Infestor and mass Swarm Hosts in HOTS, all of which were eventually nerfed because there was not suitable counterplay, which is a lynchpin of modern game design. David Kim didn't think Broodlord/Infestor was overpowered and let it sit and ruin the game for years. If you believed him then, you were ignorant. If you believe him now, you're a fool, and I'd say that right to your face and I don't believe that is toxic because I know what the definition of a fool is. He has stated over and over that X isn't a problem when the community brings it up, only to be wrong and months later have to change X anyway. Actions matter, consequences matter, accountability matters, responsibility matters. The choices people make matter. He has made far more mistakes that designers of other games and should be held accountable for that. | ||
VHbb
688 Posts
On February 18 2017 02:18 BronzeKnee wrote: Don't trust experts just because they experts, that is an argument of authority and it fallacious. Trust ideas because you've read them and understand them. Game design isn't rocket science, and the same arguments you're pedaling were used to defend Vortex, Broodlord/Infestor and mass Swarm Hosts in HOTS, all of which were eventually nerfed because there was not suitable counterplay, which is a lynchpin of modern game design. David Kim didn't think Broodlord/Infestor was overpowered and let it sit and ruin the game for years. If you believed him then, you were ignorant. If you believe him now, you're a fool, and I'd say that right to your face and I don't believe that is toxic because I know what the definition of a fool is. He has stated over and over that X isn't a problem when the community brings it up, only to be wrong and months later have to change X anyway. Actions matter, consequences matter, accountability matters, responsibility matters. The choices people make matter. He has made far more mistakes that designers of other games and should be held accountable for that. Look, I understand this is a forum about Starcraft, but we are talking about a videogame, you talk like you are discussing matters of life and death I am not expert enough to judge SC2 balancing or "lynchpin of modern game design", so I rely on the assessments of proplayers and people that works in this field - I don't think this makes me a fool, but I don't want to engage in discussion with this tone on SC2 balance.. It's nice to chat about what could improve SC2, but insulting people that work on it it's (in my opinion!) a bit extreme.. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On February 18 2017 02:18 BronzeKnee wrote: Actions matter, consequences matter, accountability matters, responsibility matters. The choices people make matter. He has made far more mistakes that designers of other games and should be held accountable for that. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Jeff Kaplan is a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed and that's why ATVI continues to have increasing revenues year after year after year after year after year. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Josh Moshquiera was a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed and that's why ATVI continues to have increasing revenues year after year after year after year after year. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Ben Brode is a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed.. you get the idea. you guys should all get together and debate who the biggest idiot is amongst all the idiots designing all these Blizzard games. Meanwhile, ATVI is in a layoff phase right now ... 5% reduction in work force.. maybe you can convince them to include all the idiots designing all these Blizzard games in this layoff phase. IMO, David Kim is doing a great job and his changes to from HotS to LotV made the game more fun. I'm 100% satisfied with the money i've spent on the SC2 franchise. The only thing causing a decline in my SC2 play time is Overwatch. On February 18 2017 01:53 saalih416 wrote: I think the first step would be to revert all the unit stats to their original BroodWar stats and removing any units that weren't in BroodWar. they should also shave Raynor's head too! | ||
AzureKnight
United States25 Posts
How about finding a strategical solution instead of changing the game? This is kind of dodging the conversation. I don't think anyone is asserting that doom drops are super OP and ruining 100% of all TvT or anything, you know? Rather, let's all keep working on generating the ideas that would make starcraft the best game it could ever possibly be. =) That said, there might be room for some pretty silly solutions like lolturretrange or suchlike, which even though it's kind of a joke range upgrades are among the most powerful kinds of upgrades... =3 pretty sure doom drops were in WoL too, for those saying remove medivac boost. Sure, doom drops have always been around and removing (or heavily nerfing) boost obviously wouldn't remove doom drops from the game. That said, go into a unit tester or something and compare six unboosted medivacs dropping into 4 missle turrets to six boosted medivacs and tell me how you feel about the difference. I already know how i feel about it but i'd be very happy to hear your opinion as well! Maybe make sure bio is 2/2 for your test. The big difference there is that Prisms take primarily shield damage..... Yeah that's a fair point, it is pretty challenging to drive out/kill a prism with anything less than a viking. If we were gonna do some things that slow the game down a bit like medivac boost nerfs I'd be very open to the idea of prism pickup nerf as well. Factories are for losers and stuff Maaaan i don't even think there's anything wrong with factory units. I'd rather say the counters available to protoss and zerg are just too strong. I think immortals and blinding cloud (and to a lesser extent, swarm hosts) are pretty awfully implimented, but maybe that's a conversation for another thread about hard counters being too hard. I'm also a random player. ♥ | ||
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